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You're listening to Sound Opinions, and this week we're talking with Jeff and Steven McDonald of Red Cross as they celebrate 45 years of making music with a documentary, a book, and a new album.I'm Jim DeRogatis.
And I'm Greg Kott.Let's get into it. Sound Opinions is supported by Goose Island.Since 1988, Goose Island's been brewing beers in the spirit of Chicago.
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You're listening to Sound Opinions, and Greg and I are thrilled indeed to have Jeff and Stephen McDonald with us in the year of Red Cross.It took 45 years to get here, but the year of Red Cross.
We have this fantastic new album that we reviewed a couple of weeks ago.We have a book coming in October, Now You're One of Us, the incredible story of Red Cross, and one of the most amusing and moving rock documentaries I've ever seen.
Born Innocent, The Red Cross Story.The only thing you guys are missing is the musical.That's next.Are you going to Broadway?Yes!
Yes Long-running band and I've been a fan from the beginning So has Greg, you know and Steven you've been on the show a couple of times But as playing with off and the Melvins, we've never done a whole show on Red Cross and this is the year of Red Cross So now is the time it's our turn.
It's your turn.Finally.It just took forever Have all these things just collided or was there a plan?You know, did you guys hire a marketing consulting firm? We're on radio Steven.So that look will not translate.
But yeah, the look of pure insanity was great Well, it was just I wish I had hired someone that made that all happen for me, but no it was not like that it was you know a combination of things trickling in or us taking advantage of one little thing happening and trying to
put something together on our end, but it's really hard to line all your ducks up and make all that stuff happen, so a lot of it was just the universe aligning, which is great, but it just meant deadlines all came at the same time, and I'm lucky I didn't lose my mind.
Now we're on the other side of that, and here we are, and we get to talk about it.It's fun.
Yeah, it's a remarkable story.Two incarnations of the band, at one point it seemed like you guys were done, or maybe on hiatus for an extended period of time.So that alone is remarkable.But let's start with the first remarkable thing.
You're like little kids and you start this band. I have to say there's so much about the documentary I loved, but like the first half I'm laughing out loud at stuff that's going on.
It is just absurdly wonderful what's happening, and at the same time this like chaotic vibe.The Liverpool of the Pacific. I'd never heard that about Hawthorne, California.I mean, I thought that was great.
So you guys are growing up in Hawthorne, California, and you said, yeah, we can do this.We can have this band.And I don't think people appreciate how remarkable that was back then.Because now you have like younger people in bands all the time.
They're doing it in their basements, and they're having shows for their friends.And that's pretty common.Punk scene in Chicago in the late 80s, early 90s was like that. But back when you were doing it, how impossible was that?
I mean, what made it seem possible to you guys that you could, yes, we can do this?What were, any role models?
Oh, the role model, I mean, it's going to seem like I'm joking, but I'm not.I grew up with, you know, in the age of the Osmond brothers and the Jackson 5 and the Partridge family.
There were children playing in those bands, so when punk rock came around and we started, like, you know, getting serious about being in a band.It had been done before, as far as I was concerned.
Well, plus, Greg left this out of the description of Hawthorne, but there's this family, the Wilsons, that predate you.
Well, the Beach Boys, I think we had consciousness of them.Of course, you can't be in Hawthorne without hearing about the Beach Boys a lot.But in 1976, I think they put out their... what was the big comp they put out?Endless Summer. Yes.
And so that was a huge record, but that was them.It was all the early stuff, like the earliest Beach Boys stuff.And we were getting into like Kiss and Aerosmith at that time.And that music seemed like 1950s corny, at least to me.
I didn't connect with it at that moment.But, you know, they were like 20 years before us, you know.But one fun fact is that They wrote, Be True to Your School, about Hawthorne High School.
20 years later, we wrote, I Hate Who I Hate, about the same school.
So you guys get this idea in your head, we can do this, and then punk rock, you mention, and it killed me, you're in the LA phone book looking up the bands that are in the phone book, and X is in the phone book, you can just call them up.
I mean, what kind of response did you get?
Usually laughing at us.I mean, when we called X, there was a Mexican restaurant in my neighborhood that had a small stage.So I thought I was just figured, oh, well, let's get a big band to headline and we'll put it together.
And I called X and they were just laughing at me.You know, yeah.You wanted X to play at El Tarasco?At a Mexican restaurant in Hawthorne near the airport. He just yelled at me, just laughed.And then I remember I was trying to get the Dickies.
I was trying to get Leonard from the Dickies, but I kept getting his uncle who he was named after. So that's how it got very confusing.
Well, speaking of confusing, how'd you get, I mean, John Doe was on the white pages.
No, I forget how.I must have gotten real, someone's real name.
It says here in Cream Magazine that their real names are, you know.Yes.But you had somehow, yeah.You had Black Flag. play a house party with you guys.So you obviously had some success in connecting with these groups.
Right.Eventually, yes.It was trial and error.And after failing with the Dickies, failing with X, we got sick.We were lucky and we actually got a real good phone number for Black Flag after we saw them play at a D.Y.I.gig at Redondo Beach.
So calling them They were more up for it, because they were kind of trying to start their own scene at the time.There wasn't much going on in the South Bay of Los Angeles.All the music was happening in Hollywood, and we were all South of that.
So it was a whole other world.Luckily, Greg Good wanted to start a whole new scene that they would lead.And I called them, and they invited us down to participate.
They were good sports.But you guys were having fun from the beginning.I mean, covering the song that the evil sister on Bewitched sang, and covering Partridge family.Age-wise, demographically speaking, I'm right in between you two brothers.
So I grew up... I understand.I had the novelization of one of the Partridge Family episodes that had Susan on the cover, and boy, that was a sacred text at the age that you guys were.So you're writing about the stuff that you're seeing on TV,
and about your own lives, and there's a lot of fun and there's some kitsch, but there's also, you know, and the documentary does this so well, there's also always some poignancy.
I mean, a lot of Hawthorne, where you grew up, was eventually just torn down and bulldozed and gentrified.You know, eminent domain comes in.What was it, for the freeway, right?So, you know, everything is temporary, not just pop culture.
I know, you kind of learn that, like, living in Los Angeles, you can't get too attached to anything because eventually it just, it does become bulldozed and they put an ugly apartment building up.
You know, that's just the way it is living in Los Angeles.So yeah, so we, you know, there was no permanence and our, you know, foundation growing up because there's no touchstones for the adult versions of ourselves to look back at.
It's got it, it's all gone.
Sure, if you do a Google Earth search for our childhood address, it's really funny because gigantic industrial pylons, there's satellite imagery of freeway on-ramps.And that's what's there now.
Steven, how much of a hero was Jeff to you, right?It's a four year difference, right?And you're coming up into, you know, he's going to let you play in his band, you know?
We gotta get some of that sibling rivalry here.
It's a funny word to choose, hero.I mean, I wanted Jeff's approval more than anything, but it's more as an adult that I look back and realize that's how I felt.I had huge reactions to moments of not getting his approval.
But, you know, as a kid, I mean, at the time, you know, we would fight nonstop.And, you know, and Jeff, you know, letting me in his band is a funny concept.
It's more like Jeff would call people like John Doe from X. And the first thing he would say is, our bass player is 11 years old.Right, right.
This is our hook.This is our hook.I guess I was kind of like, you know, it was like Steven was like a Gypsy Rose Lee, I guess, you know.
Well, no, you know to put us a more serious spin on the question, right I was a sociology minor journalism major I Understand well there, you know in sociology.There's this Socialization of subcultures, right?
You aren't born knowing how to dress and act like a hell's angel for example, right?Somebody has to show you the way not to bathe and what drugs to do and the language and what you wear, right?And so it is with rock.
So many of us have a Beatrice, you know, who leads us through the inner circles of hell.You need somebody to teach you how to, you know, go down this path.To corrupt you.Yeah, corrupt you.Ruin your life.Yeah.
Well, Jeff definitely curated the best of pop culture in our world, for sure.And I was exposed to so many things through Jeff McDonald that I never would have been exposed to.
Maybe even, you know, ever, but definitely not like hearing, you know, David Bowie's Hunky Dory at six years old.That was Jeff McDonald that made that happen. you know, over and over.There was a million examples like that.
And and I just always think, like, it's crazy.Why?How did you?Because, I mean, Jeff was 10 when he got hunky dory, you know, and it's like, where did you get the idea to get that record?It wasn't a hit record.It wasn't on the radio.
You know what I mean?Things like that.And so, yes, there's definitely that there's the Jeff McDonald effect and in that way, for sure.
Well, what was your entry point?
Yeah, I mean, we had you know, teenage neighbors that had cool taste in music had aunts and uncles who are kind of more of our sibling age who like, like good music.
So for me, if I was exposed to something that was unusual, and I liked it, I just went all in like, just immediately.And I've always been that way.And I discovering David Bowie when I was 10.
Well, I got I discovered Bowie through my uncle's like five years older than me.And it was just such a you know, it was like this it was the next step.
I was a kid growing up, I grew up on the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and there was nothing happening for many years.And then all of a sudden this like, this new theatrical, crazy music happened and I managed to go and find it.
And with that, there's everything else that's attached to it.You know, like when you, when you discover someone like, like an underground artist, like David Bowie was at the time, then you discover everyone else connected with him.
You know, like you discover eventually Mont the Hoople and Iggy Pop and you eventually discover Lou Reed and all that stuff.So, you know, that's how that all that stuff happened.
But for me, I knew I had to keep finding new sources for this, for fresh material.And it was always going to be someone who was older than me.
Coming up, we dive deeper into Jeff and Stephen's home life and discuss the tumultuous highs and lows of their early music making days.That's coming up on Sound Opinions.
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This week, we're talking to Stephen and Jeff McDonald of Red Cross, a band that the two of us have enjoyed for a long time.
In the documentary about them, Born Innocent, we get a glimpse of their fascinating, joyful, and at times harrowing personal stories.
Specifically, Stephen's kidnapping as a young teen by an older woman, which resulted in him being a missing child for three months.Let's get back into the conversation.
You guys are living at home with your parents.They're both in the movie.They seem like nice people.
At the same time, I'm struck by they gave you a tremendous amount of independence, or maybe you just grabbed that independence no matter what they thought.And I'm curious about how that worked out.
You must have been practicing at home, and you must have had these instruments, and you were bringing in these weird records.Weird people.Yeah.Trafficking with these strange people. people.How did that work out?How was that relationship?
Well, I mean, we tortured our parents, obviously, but it was like a slow manipulation on our part, the freedom aspect of it.Because, like we said, I got into, like, you know, kind of dance music at a very, very young age.
And having the records wasn't enough when I realized that, you know, I could go to these concerts.So, I had to figure out a way to pitch getting to the, you know, rock concerts to my parents.
So I pitched it to them as, you know, you drop us off at the movie theaters, drop us off at the forum.You know, it's the same thing.And I managed to get away with that when I went to see Elton John in 1974 when I was 11.
Well, and now there's that wonderful scene in the documentary where they're sitting, your parents, in front of a pile of t-shirts, classic Red Cross t-shirts.And I think your dad says, maybe we should sell this one.
And your mom, no, no, no, you're not going to do that.
I mean, we eventually allowed them to become fans, but I mean, for many years, we were like, no, you can't come see us.You know, you can't.We didn't want them actually to have to see where we were actually.
We didn't want them to know what we were, you know, the kind of world we were entering to play music because at some point it got a little bit sketchy, like in the early 80s.
And there was, you know, it's like, you don't bring your parents to some industrial court, hardcore punk rock ten band show, you know, it's at Godzilla's.That's just not going to happen.
Yeah, but they were so supportive of us, you know, I mean, we were we were very lucky because they weren't musical people.They weren't like artists or hippies.My dad's a welder.They they they have a welding shop that they still do together.
You know, my dad's 85.We must have been really like complete aliens to them.But
At the same time, they could recognize that we had an interest, we had a direction, and even if they didn't totally understand that direction, they were all in, as long as it was safe.As long as it seemed to be safe.We had to sell each situation.
Well, and that kind of comes crashing down when you get quote-unquote kidnapped, Stephen, for a couple of months.
It's like exactly they were, you know, I mean, their their concerns were correct.And and yeah, it's a cautionary tale.It's that's, you know, documented in the documentary about that event.
That's what I'm saying.These moments of poignance come up.You know, Born Innocent, Neurotica, those were two records that anybody who went to indie shows, played college radio, played on college radio or did a fanzine as I did.
I mean, we you know, they were sacred texts to us. But what was revelatory to me, I was a huge fan of your first major label album, Third Eye.It comes out in 1990.
And a recurring theme in the story of Red Cross bad timing the year before the year punk broke Much like material issue, right?
It's a little out of step with what's happening in Seattle Although you played with all of those bands and many of them are in the documentary influence them singing your praises, you know
But man, I didn't realize, because I didn't write about the album, I think I reviewed the album, but I didn't interview you guys at that time.That album meant so much to me, and it was so fantastic, and it was miserable recording it.
Well, that's what bummed me out about the doc.I talked to you Steven around that time cuz like Jim I love that record and I thought oh my god This is great.
And then I'm looking at the doc and they think they think this album sucks it was the one record that seems to be the The one outlier like, no, that didn't work.
Well, yeah, that kind of thing is weird because as a fan, I'm always more careful like not to like bag on on a record because as you know, as a person who made it, I'm going to be hypersensitive to any of any of the perceived flaws in my brain.
But but I know what it's like to be a fan and to have a complete relationship with the record.And, you know, it doesn't matter what the artists who made it think about it. You know what I mean?It doesn't matter.
But sometimes it is shocking because to hear someone talk about their experience making something that is completely different than your experience listening to it.
But for us, it was a weird growing pains time for us anyway, just like as human beings.So, you know, you always associate your life experiences with whatever record it is that you were making at that time.
And that was, you know, we had some valuable lessons to be learned while we were making that record, that's for sure.
with the producer of the California Raisins.
Yeah, I'm producing the California Raisins.And you know, it's just like, okay, we're at another one of our life's crossroads.So that puts a lot of pressure on young people, you know.
But Jeff, I think, and you wrote this tune, I Don't Know How to Be Your Friend.Yeah. I think that and Paul Westerberg's unsatisfied.I mean, that was 10, 12 years of my life, right?
I was chronically the best friend who would help this girl I was crushing on move from one fifth floor walk up in Hoboken to another, you know, carrying the futon up five flights of stairs in the snow, right?
You know, and then only to hear, oh, I thought we were just friends, right?
I don't know how to be your friend
Tell me about that song, because it meant so much to me.
Well, you know, I mean, that's a good take on it.For me, it was more like, you know, having like your first long relationship, your first love, it kind of explodes and it breaks up on you.
But you still want to keep the person in your life, but you don't know how to do it.Because anytime you, you know, have any contact with that person as friends,
it leads to like several days of depression, you know, it's like just how to how just maneuvering, you know, broken relationships at a young age, you know, it's, You know, and everyone goes through it on some level and some on some version of that.
So that's about 80 percent of all great rock and roll is about that.Yeah.But, you know, I have rarely like I said, Westerberg's Unsatisfied and your tune.You know, those are the ones I would go to to say this is what that's like.
Well, you know that.Well, I'm glad it served a purpose. because, you know, like playing a song- But you hate to pronounce it.
Every listener has their own take.
It's always weird when the songs that were more, more literal, less abstract, they're always the ones that are more difficult to perform years later.
I mean, it's easier for me to perform a song that I wrote when I was 14 than it would be to perform that song because I've so moved on from that particular experience that inspired that tune.
You know, it's weird.But like the more abstract numbers, which is, you know, they just they kind of mutate into whatever current situation, you know, we're in.
And of course, Kurt Cobain famously, infamously saying, oh, they're way too happy.What's going on with these guys?Which you wrote a song about in your latest album.But that whole idea of processing, because I talked to my dad about this.
I said, these guys were writing these great, joyful songs in the middle of going through this thing when they were really young.And my dad was an immigrant.He spent his formative years in World War II.He was a refugee for 10 years.
And I said, Dad, how did you do that?How did you process that?He says, I was too young to know any better.I just thought the next day I'll come along and I'll get through.I didn't even think about, oh, this is horrible.I'm going to get through it.
I didn't know any better. And I'm just curious about how did you guys process that trauma and were able to make music that wasn't gloomy and it wasn't depressing, which is Cobain's critique.It doesn't reflect my reality or whatever.
Well, I think, you know, okay, what you said about, like, getting through to the next day.Being young was a much easier time for me to live in a one day at a time, not thinking about the future.I wasn't.
So that, you know, and the music part was the joyful part.I mean, you know, I didn't see why connecting any kind of struggles or
or disappointments or sadness, you know, growing up as a kid, I didn't see what the point of making the music about that too, because the music was, you know, it's an escape, you know, it's not like, it's not escapism, because there's honesty there, but it's like the sacred place that you go to, to not have to deal with all the, just the gnarly pressures you have as a kid, and school, and relationships, or
Or like Steven, you know, went through kidnapping.You know, it's like music was a joyful place.So anytime we made a record, we were able to kind of get it together for that moment.
That's why maybe there are few and far between because we only made a record every few years.
If you listen to the first full-length Born Innocent, we definitely are processing the abduction event on that record.So, I mean, that is happening.We weren't really thinking about it, but we just had this reaction.
And then a lot of it is also just like us diving into escapism and wanting to have fun and wanting to get back to normal.
Well, yeah, it's it's kind of a what's next, you know, you know, we dealt with we Stevens Stevens situation.
was was yeah there's a few songs that you know make reference to that and then then we all then we go off into like russ meyers and charles manson so i mean yeah steven i wanted to to ask you a couple of questions it seems to me uh jeff had taken a 15 year
sabbatical basically uh of not making music um you couldn't get it out of your system i mean you know like i said you'd come through sound opinions uh as a member of off as a member of the melvins you're playing with the sparks uh guys the brothers right you're doing you you couldn't get the road out of your blood it seems to me but you auditioned for the smashing pumpkins
And, you know, Mr. Corrigan, who Greg and I have had to cover since day one in Chicago, you know, he has many attributes, but a sense of humor is not one of them.What on earth made you think that was going to work?
You didn't get the gig, obviously, but why would you even try?Health insurance?
What was that about? Why did I try to audition for his band?I think they solicited me, actually, but I can't remember.But yeah, it's true, it was my sense of humor that actually kind of killed the gig, too.
And just to be totally specific, it wasn't Smashing Pumpkins, it was his first post-Smashy Pumpkins.
Oh, Zwan, yes.Was it Zwan or the solo record?It was the band Zwan?It was Zwan, yes.
So I and I and I kept getting called back.
So it seemed like maybe I was gonna get the swan gig But um, there was one point when we were talking about like how bands are sort of like cults and they have their own You know set of code rules, you know likes and dislikes and I said, oh, yeah Like red cross always had like a no side jamming rule and they're like, what's a side jam?
and I go, you know, it's like very 38 special and um, and I I literally like put my ass against his body, like I put my back, my entire body against him, so like my ass was on him.And I did like a rocking back and forth like I was in 38 Special.
And then I stepped back and I looked at him and he looked even stiffer than normal.
And and I thought wow, I just I just lost the gig for side jamming Something that you definitely do not you wouldn't do you wouldn't do it But I think that but I think that even just referencing side jamming wasn't necessarily, you know, it didn't make much sense Yeah Yeah, the other band was Weezer that you said you didn't make the cut you you you try it out for two of the most uptight people in music
But the Weezer thing, now that was another thing, they kept calling me back and then I kind of went on, basically what I failed was the Hang audition with Rivers, which was just him and I like hung out one day and it was like an awkward date.
So pregnant pause for Tyler.
Kind of.I mean, it could have been my playing too, I'm not sure.But I think they eventually ended up with an old friend of his, which makes sense.I would say with Weezer, I was a bigger Weezer fan than I was of Smashing Pumpkin.
I mean, I really loved that Blue album, and I got hip to it before it was a big hit.So that one kind of hurt me.
And especially the fact that they paired us up like, okay, just the two of you guys go out, go to record shopping, see if there's any chemistry.
But my question is why you can't get this out of your life?
Well, I mean, I also have to make a living.
But Jeff is independently wealthy.He doesn't have to.You want to answer that, Jeff?I can't speak for him.I don't discuss finance. So he doesn't discuss finances, but I could not rest on my laurels for whatever reasons.
Also, two things I'd like to just clarify.One was, Jeff didn't take a 15-year break.Red Cross went on a nine-year hiatus, but there was a 15-year break between records. So we were playing again by 2006.
So in 1997, we went on hiatus, and by 2006, we started playing together.And then even by 2008, we started working on researching the blues, which was the first record in 15 years.
It just took us so long to make it, which is really funny, because if you listen to it, it sounds like this raucous garage rock, you know, like we did it in the night, like Please Please Me or something.
We actually spent eight years working on that record.
In drifts and drafts.But nine years is a long time not to perform when you grow up performing, you know, when you're a showbiz kid, as we became, you know, nine years was really weird to go back on stage after all that.For me, it was horrifying.
Steven, you know, continued to do it.I didn't.
Yeah.But that brings up the question, when there was that break, was there a sense that the band might be over?There might not be a part two?
No.No, because we never officially broke up.So it was always kind of like, oh, we'll do it when we want to do it.And then, you know, I had a child, and I was raising a child, and Steven was, you know,
you know, playing with other musicians and doing other types of, you know, growing up as well.So, you know, I think if we would have officially broken up, but we never did.So for me, I always thought it was an option.It was open, but whenever.
Well, we still collaborated on studio things and stuff.Jeff, he's down in his very fancy basement studio right now.He continued to do recordings on his own, and then sometimes we would record together.
But they were just cool, small side project things.But we're siblings.We actually got along much better during that period, too, than we did for the last five years of Red Cross prior to that hiatus. So and we live five minutes away from each other.
Our wives are like the best and they work together, too Well, I was gonna they're both musicians.
It's fascinating to me that you both wound up with these incredibly talented musician wives You are on Charlotte's I pass Charlotte Jeff and and and Stephen with Anna Warren Kerr I mean and and it's so touching to see those relationships in the documentary and also your relationships with your kids
Yeah, you know that you both seem to have wound up as really good husbands and really good dads Which you know in the neurotic a days we would not use necessarily bet on I was gonna say you seem surprised Jim You saw them in the 80s, you know these guys I mean there was Bob Stinson in the replacement I always thought of red rust next in the messed up department was sort of red rust
You know, like Dylan wrote Forever Young about these guys.So, like, growing up was not in the equation.I go, like, they're great.They don't need to grow up.But you did.And, you know, I agree with Jim's compliment.
When we return, we discuss the latest album from Red Cross.That's In a Minute on Sound Opinions.
And we are back.This week we are having way too much fun talking with Jeff and Stephen McDonald of the band Red Cross.Let's get back into that conversation.
The whole point of being family guys and then having other things to do in your lives, and Jim and I talk about this a lot, when bands come back, it's inevitably you keep wanting them to be what they were, or you know, they're not as good as they used to be.
Did you feel that legacy, you know, that kind of weight at all, like when you put Red Cross back together?Because phase two of Red Cross has been great, but that doesn't work out 95% of the time for other bands that try to do that.
When we got back together and started rehearsing again and playing together again, Allison Anders asked us to play her Don't Knock the Rock festival.And so we just said yes because, oh, OK, we'll just do it.
And when we started playing together, it was instantly, you know, the chemistry was still there.And as far as getting on stage, I mean, for me, it was terrifying because I had no idea how I would how it would be for me because it had been nine years.
But Steven had been doing it successfully for years with other groups.So, you know, once we did it, it was it just instantly fell right back into place.You know, it just became a natural part of, you know.
A lot of it was like practical concerns, you know, like when we broke up, you know, we had been on a major label and, you know, during the 90s, we were making records in big, fancy studios, working with, you know, all sorts of, you know,
Award-winning engineers and stuff and then the idea of trying to figure out how to make records without that kind of support that was Intimidating but as far as like the creative thing I've always kind of felt like you know We were early starters but late bloomers for my taste at least you know like I really started to really dig the songs that we were writing later and feeling like we were really kind of getting a good handle on how to
work with the form or whatever.And, you know, I mean, that's how I think about our new album.In some ways, it's like, you know, it's the kind of music I've always wanted us to be able to make, you know?
And that's exciting to get closer and closer to that.I mean, you talked about Third Eye earlier, and I don't want to take away from anything that anyone likes.
And the song that you mentioned, I Don't Know How To Be Your Friend, that's a high mark for that era of Jeff's songwriting.No question about it.It's a really honest moment.Ate two candy bars for breakfast.Guess I didn't really care.
It's a genius moment, you know? But there's also moments on that record that sound like 80s hair metal that make me cringe to hear, you know?And it's just because we didn't have the facility yet.
We didn't have the command in the studio to do it the way we wanted to do it.And we have slowly cobbled together those chops, you know?And any artist that doesn't get better as they get older, well then they're asleep at the wheel.
That's on them, you know?I think that it's like, there's nothing about what we're doing that requires like,
You know my physicality of my 18 year old self Necessarily, I mean, although I do do jumps on stage and my all my friends my age asked me about my knees Well, and you know, that's not true of the drummers, which is why you've had 78 drummers through the years.
Yeah Yeah Neil Peart couldn't play at the end, you know But that's also something that gets better with age because the reason we've had so many drummers is because we didn't know how to manage relationships, you know, we were like
just dysfunctional, you know, disinterested, self-centered brats on many levels.
Yeah.Well, we wanted to get in depth into the making of the Red album.I mean, it essentially would have been a double album.Or I haven't seen.Is it out on vinyl?Is there a gatefold?There needs to be.Yeah, yeah, yeah.It's a double album.All right.
And it's an all red cover, because it's Red Cross, a.k.a.the Red Album.Oh, man!All right.Wow.I mean, it's such a bounty of material.Great songs from beginning to end.Tell me about it.It was five years from Beyond the Door to the Red Album.
How did this one come together?
Well, the pandemic happened and kind of like killed the life of our former, the early record, Beyond the Door that you mentioned.
And, you know, I think it just around, for me at least, by 2021, I just was like, I want to go again is the way I talk about it, which is the way people talk about having children usually. You know, because it takes a lot like the beyond the door.
I did all the engineering and recording and I've worn so many different hats with this group.And like it was really deflating for us.We had really kind of built some momentum up.
We had a bunch of reissues come out during the pandemic that I wanted to tour on and and give Andrew Reich an ending to his movie.You know, I thought we would play a big show in L.A.
and have everybody that's ever been in our band that will still talk to us, which seems to be most. Come out and play, and all these things, and all that stuff just got foiled.
And I just started writing a lot during the pandemic, and then the Melvins, I'm a permanent member, I'm a regular member of the Melvins, and they started touring by 22, and I just started bringing my little road guitar with me on the road, I got this little portable guitar,
And I just started writing a lot, and Jeff has always been the predominant writer of the band, and I've always written with him, and I've always been a good collaborator, I think, but I started finishing songs and just sending them to Jeff, like, here's another one, what do you think?
And eventually it was just trying to prompt him into come to the room that I'm in right now, and let's finish these, or let's finish other ones."
And then Beatles Get Back came, you know, that six-hour documentary came on, and we all got to see an intimate view into their creative process and realized that they were just normal, actual human beings.
in the earlier stages of learning one of their classic songs also sound like crap, which was so, you know, for me at least, that hold my heroes on such a pedestal, it was super inspiring to go like, oh right, it just means you have to work hard.
It doesn't mean that like... The meaning of punk rock.Anybody can do this if you refuse to give up and work hard.
But it's also like, but you know, but you can be discouraged by people that you think are like, you know, not mortal humans.You think like, oh, right, you either have it or you don't.Okay, I guess maybe I just don't have it, you know?
And then you see, you know, your hero struggling through something that you completely relate to on every level, every little dynamic of their, I mean, every little subtlety of their band group dynamic.
I'm just saying that, like, those are the things that really prodded me into, like, going, like, dude, you got to come over.Let's write what's going on.Let's make another record.
The album, the self-titled record, the red album, the double album that we know now has a gatefold sleeve.I gotta get, I'm gonna order in that vinyl right now.You know, 45 years you go like, these guys should be like 80 by now.
You know, but it's like you're still, you know, your whole life Is rock and roll like rock music?
I mean you've been you've been there from like the earliest age I mean you were defined by it, and you're still doing it with this incredible sense of freshness like it's not like You're punching in and it.
I think it's kind of moving in a way I mean, it's a joyous record, but I found myself kind of like wow That's why I said the joy of those two singing we found our voice together playing this music yeah, and
Did you think about that stuff when you're making this record?Because it seemed like you were looking back, reflecting back on a lot of stuff too, right?
Consciously reflecting, I don't know how much, you know, that was something, listening to the record after it was done, that was kind of amazing to realize, like, wow, this kind of sounds like, you know,
almost a tribute to ourselves, but we were thinking in those terms.I think, you know, we try to only make music and do such when we are really inspired and we have a lot of support.So we're able to do that kind of, to do that.
So we don't have to do it, you know, to survive, you know.So it's kind of like we could make art when, when we feel we actually have something in the tank, you know. But, I mean, that's how I feel, anyway.
That's why I think it's fresh, because we want to do it.
Well, I mean, I also think that in terms of there being any kind of nostalgia about our childhood and things like that, I mean, we had just spent separately hours and hours and hours doing interviews with Dan Epstein for the book, Now You're One of Us, which is comprised of separate interviews of Jeff and I. So we've both been doing that, plus the documentary, a lot of reflecting going on.
But I think that, and then Jeff talking about a tribute to us, I don't think he's talking about the lyrics.We're not necessarily making, it's more like the album is, it's a longer track list.
So we had enough, we had more room to spread out and kind of do a little bit of everything that we do.
So I think that it's a really good cross-section of everything that we've ever done Just because we had more room to spread out 18 songs, you know It was never like oh, it's getting too much like this or it's getting too soft or too punk or whatever It's like no there's room for all of it And then and then also just like the thing about Jeff and I being in this this my studio room together especially for me at least after watching
get back.It's so rare to have a creative relationship with another person where you can speak in shorthand, where you already know that so many of your likes and your dislikes are just a given.You're on the same page so much.
Sure, there are differences, but you can really trust the other person's opinion on like, you know, you throw this line out.Is that any good?
And if they, you know, like, though, I mean, whatever, not to make the Beatles comparison over and over and over.But there's a whole thing about Paul saying, oh, that that, you know, that line.
And hey, Jude, though, something in the song, something about your shoulders is like, yeah, that's just a filler.And John's like, no, that's the best part.I totally know what you're getting, getting at, you know.
And I think that that's rare, you know, and it was really fun for Jeff and I to just spend a couple, like we'd spend a couple hours every day for a couple of months.As you can hear, Jeff doesn't really like to schedule things all that much.
He's kind of talking about how he makes records not on a timetable.That's fine. But I, on the other hand, I kind of do schedule and I show up for it.And even if Inspirato doesn't show up, at least I was there in case it did.
And that's sort of my mentality.But like we got together every day.But once again, it wasn't like explicit.It was more like. You know, I just kind of left the door open.I wanted to.That's the thing.
I just don't like to be so formal, you know, I just that's kind of a. a bummer for me.
Things are just too, if it's presented too much as work, because it is a lot of work, but it has to be like, you know, it's not, if it's presented as work, then it feels like work, then the inspiration to continue to live does not, you know, does, for me, dies.
Alright, thank you gentlemen.Talk with us for an hour and a half.Thanks guys.Gotta let them go.
That wraps up our epic chat with Steven and Jeff McDonald of Red Cross, and now we want to hear from you.Have you been a fan of Red Cross since the beginning, or did you come on board more recently?
Leave us a voice message on our website, soundopinions.org, or start a conversation in our Facebook group.Mr. Cott, what is on the show next week?
Well, next week, Jim, we're going to try to terrify our listeners even more than usual.We're going to do a Halloween special, songs about witches, songs about ghosts, and we love doing these shows because they're so much fun.
And don't forget to listen to our bonus podcast on A Player of Your Choice, where we're going to have even more of that great interview with the McDonald brothers of Red Cross.
The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this program belong solely to Sound Opinions and not necessarily to Columbia College Chicago or our sponsors.Thanks, as always, to our Patreon supporters.
Sound Opinions is produced by Andrew Gill, Alex Claiborne, and our Columbia College intern, Max Hatlam.Our social media consultant is Katie Cott.Thanks for listening.
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