Fam, before we get to the show, this is breaking, breaking, breaking news.We have a full interview with Cathy, our protagonist, Andrea slash Alexis's mother, live right now at the Patreon.We did this interview on Friday, like three days ago.
Girl, tell them what they are in store for.
Yeah, she is exactly the powerhouse you see in this documentary.It was an honor and a privilege, I mean it sincerely, to be in the same airspace even though it was virtual over Zoom.
She is fantastic and she will inspire you and make you feel a lot of things.So please, please listen to it.She's phenomenal.
She's gonna get you riled up.She's gonna get you angry.She answers a ton of questions that we had about the documentary.She breaks some news.She tells us about other potential victims of Dennis Bowman.
It is a fascinating, fabulous interview through which she was drinking her red wine at one in the afternoon and God damn it, we love her.
She told us that after the fact, like I said, I would have probably prepared.You know what?I already miss her.I love her vibe.I love her energy.I know.I know.
She's the best.So go check it out right now.It's live right now on Patreon.Patreon.com slash True Crime Obsessed.We'll also drop a link in the show notes and go listen to our interview with Kathy.And now to the show.
And here's the show.Into the Fire of the Lost Daughter 2 brought to you by Taylor Swift's discography and angry women everywhere.Yes.
Hi, Jillian Benzavalli.Hello, Patrick Hines.Oh, fam.Hey, join us over on the Patreon if you want more Jillian and me.Yeah, why not?At the $5 level, you get one full ad-free bonus episode every single week.Yeah.What are we doing over there?
We're also having Drag Bingo once a month, which is also at the $5 level.Yeah.
It's so great.Our favorite series that we've covered recently, like The Man with a Thousand Kids.
Oh, we're doing Mastermind, if you want, like, amazing, badass women.Dr. Anne Burgess.
We did The Cult of Mother God.We did Quiet on Set.
We did Twin Flames.Yeah.We did Lost Women of Highway 20.
So many cult ones.The Sarah Lawrence cult one.
The Heaven's Gate called one.
That's a throwback.That was a long time ago.So long ago.
Forever.We also have the After Party tier where we hang out with you.We do MMAs.We have another tier where we send you stuff in the mail.We make episodes just for the Hero Bell tier.
Yeah, so we did like a Bigfoot, Unsolved Mysteries, like old school from the 90s, a UFO one.You get that calendar every year at the end of the year.
Lots of fun.It's patreon.com slash truecrimeobsessed or just go to our website, click on the Patreon link. What are we doing today, girl?
Okay, so this is Into the Fire, The Lost Daughter.This is our second episode.
Woof.We open with Brenda, the wife of the killer, in the interrogation room.Brenda, the garbage wife of the garbage killer.Yes, I brought the garbage belt back.
Yeah.So, the killer's been arrested, and he's giving these cops attitude.He's like, oh, goody, you're a cop.
Good for you.And I'm like, ooh, wow.
I mean, I have so much to say here.Brenda is sobbing.Are we not here for her tears?I'm not here.Fuck you, Brenda.
Like, here's my, at what point, at what point does it become her responsibility?Was Dennis Bowman a piece of shit, controlling, abusive asshole?Yes.Right?Like, there are times where it's like, oh, that's an abusive relationship.She was abused.
But there's, she looked away at so many things.She allowed so much destruction and death and rape to happen.Like, what, I can't, I can't give her a pass on this at all in any way whatsoever.She's just as bad. Okay, I agree.
I mean, everyone in the documentary agrees, you know?
Like, at what point does she take any responsibility for allowing this all to happen?
You're also like, I hate to give away the ending, but in the end, she's going to defend him after the fact.
Like, all of the things that she knows.And what does she know that we don't know she knows?A lifetime with this guy?There's a lot more here.
The last episode ended with the killer being arrested for rape and murder, and everyone thought it was gonna be Andre's case, but it's not.
Our victim is Kathleen Doyle.She's 25 years old.She was awesome.She was a traveler.She was an adventurer.I'm like, was she a Sagittarius by any chance?
But she had, like, these beautiful eyes, and she was 4'11 and 3 quarters, and she always wanted everyone to know about the 3 quarters.Yeah.And Christine, her aunt, is here.Christine must have a story and a half.
Christina's amazing.Christine and Kathleen were raised like sisters, even though Christine is the aunt, because she was only 11 years older than Kathleen.And so she tells us, like, Kathleen loved to giggle.
She was smart and intellectual, and she went to college to be a writer, and she tells this heartbreaking story that there was a page found on Kathleen's desk right after she died, and it said, it read... I've often wondered what prompts writers to write.
Somewhere along the line, I developed the urge to. I know I'm not ready for the written word.I feel I must have many more years of living yet before I write something worthwhile.
I feel I must have many more years of living yet before I write something worthwhile.She wrote that the week before she died.Oh, my God.Isn't that horrible?It's horrible.
Also, Christine says for 20 years she didn't know how Kathleen died because she wouldn't let anybody tell her.Because she said if she didn't know how, she wouldn't have to imagine it.
Yeah.I mean, it's the visual.You don't.But that's such a hard thing because then it's because then it could be anything.What has Christine also been thinking the whole time and waking up?It's just, you know.So Kathleen's super smart.
She's a writer, graduated magna cum laude, which is amazing.And she lived in this like beautiful little house right outside the city in Norfolk, Virginia.
Yeah, and like she and her husband lived in this little house right next to a church.It seemed really safe.The husband was in the military.They got married.He deployed the following summer and she's living home alone with their kitten.
So it's 1979 and her husband was in the Navy because remember we mentioned that last week, the Navy.He was deployed right away and she was Yeah, on her own with this, like, Kathleen and her kitten.It's like just two gals.It's really sweet.
So Phil Evans is the prosecutor and Vivian is Kathleen's good friend.And she was hanging out with Kathleen the night before she was killed.
Yeah.So it's September 9th, 1980.Vivian comes over for wine and they hang out.They have a couple of drinks.She leaves around 930.And the next day, Vivian is concerned because she can't get in touch with Kathleen.
So Vivian asks her husband, Jim, to take her over to Kathleen's house to see what's going on.And Vivian, like, pushes on the front door and sees that it's, like, open.
And she sees the wine glasses they had been drinking out of the night before on the coffee table.She thinks that's weird.She goes back to the bedroom and she finds Kathleen's body.
Yeah, Kathleen is on the floor and she is deceased.Now, John Smith is the cop from Norfolk PD, and they're saying like, this is a very brutal, like the room was a mess.The mattress was pushed off the box spring.
He says that, he describes it as overkill.He says the room was torn up.Yeah, the mattress was pushed off the box spring, like there'd been a struggle.Kathleen is laying on top of the bedspread on the floor.
They found she'd been sexually assaulted. And the cause of death was mechanical asphyxiation, essentially a stramulation.And she had a circular burn mark on her right cheek.
Would have been the diameter equivalent to, like, the end of a cigar or a Lincoln log.
This is really weird.There's a burn on her face with what could have been a cigar.And then they say or a Lincoln log.
So Lincoln logs I grew up with like Lincoln logs are little like wooden toys that you use to like build like log cabins are like like little.
So it's not just a clever name.Lincoln logs used to make log cabins.
Like an Abraham Lincoln connection or I don't know but like you use them to like build little log cabins and so they're saying that like the burn on her face was either from a cigar or from a Lincoln log because they find a charred Lincoln log in the trash in her bathroom
And Vivian is like, that's super weird just on its face.But also, Kathleen didn't have children.So why is there a charred Lincoln Log from a child's toy in the trash?
And just one of them?Like, Lincoln Logs come in like a- They're a set.It's like a big box of Lincoln Logs.Yeah.You wouldn't just have one.
Right.You have to build your whole little town.Your whole little Oregon Trail town.Did you ever play with Lincoln Logs?No, but I like the idea of building your own little town and having-
I feel like I've given you the wrong idea of what Lincoln Logs are.No, I know.
I'm not an alien.I know what they are.That was not my childhood, but I know what Lincoln Logs are.
But you wouldn't make a whole town.I feel like you had enough materials to maybe make two little houses. Okay, that part I didn't know.But I know that you- I don't want to ruin the image of you.Can I just have it?Yeah, yeah.
With a little choo-choo train.
This is a really hard, can I just have it, where in my mind you can make a little town?
The thing about Lincoln Logs is you can make so many little homes.
Very cute.And that's exactly what it is.
That's exactly what it is.
You know it's bad when I need a little thing.I know.Like a Lincoln Log one.A little Lincoln Log town.Even though I'm probably one million percent wrong. I just need the idea of, like, do they come with cute little people?
Not, like, fake grass or anything?No.Not, like, an animal, like a farm animal?
No.This was, like, the 70s that these were, like, being made.You know what I mean?All right.
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They're saying that this offender was so violent what he did to her, that there was no way this was the first time he'd done something like this before.
And also, they're looking at the scene, the phone was disabled.
When Vivian and her husband, Jim, found Kathleen and tried to call the police department, they could hear the dispatcher, but the dispatcher could not hear them.
When the police forensically processed the phone, they realized that the mouthpiece had been removed.It essentially disables that function of the phone, keeping someone from calling for help.
She could have heard 911, but they couldn't have heard her.
Like he ripped the mouthpiece off and we know this.
So I'm just saying he disabled it and put it back together.And I'm just wondering, did he want her calling 9-1-1 for the added terror of her not being able to actually communicate with them?
It's a fucking horror movie.
Because the police, like, we know this because when Vivian, her friend and Jim called, the police were like, well, I can barely hear you.So that's the confirmation that whatever he was doing worked.
Like the phone still worked, but she wouldn't have been able to actually ask for help.That's what's so terrifying to me.
Brenda defends him, by the way.Just a reminder.
The other really frustrating thing is that there's no evidence at the crime scene.
They don't find any fingerprints except for Kathleen, her friend Vivian, and Kathleen's husband, but we know that he's deployed in the middle of the Indian Ocean, so it definitely wasn't him.
And like, obviously his DNA would be there.He lives in the house.
And so obviously whoever did this is good at this and has done it before.
And the cops are focusing on the neighbors, other men she knew, maybe her husband's friends who were not deployed.Everyone checks out.There are no leads.The case goes cold almost immediately.And it stays that way for 40 years.
So I'm like, what the hell changed?
So now we're back with Dennis Bowman and the cops.Now, if you remember, Dennis Bowman was in the Navy.He's actually wearing a Navy hat during this interrogation with the police.Kathleen's husband was in the Navy.
Remember that.So also this fucking insufferable fucking skin sack is just sitting there.
I don't think I've ever heard you say that before.
This is what they're going to be called now, because I'm like, I don't want to hurt an animal's feelings.I don't want to disparage pine cones anymore.
Yeah, they're just like skin sack.What's skin ever do to you?
I take care of my skin. Remember when Lincoln Logs, you could build like a little community and a town with animals?Yeah.So Kathleen's husband was in the Navy.Her father is Captain Tim O'Brien, also in the Navy.
And Kathleen's father, much like Andrea's mom, Kathy, is keeping the pressure on this case.Captain Tim O'Brien of the Navy.He was very, very, very involved.He worked tirelessly from 1980 until his death in 2016.
And Kathy is saying, like, I wish I could have known this guy because we are cut from the same cloth.
One of the things that really stuck with me was that Kathleen had a cat, and the cat was with her when she died.And Kathleen's mother takes the cat and, like, you know, keeps the cat.The cat was a baby.
And the mother would say to Aunt Christine... She often said, if he could just talk.
She kept him until he was so ill.And so we took him to the vet, and he died on her arms on the way.And she was inconsolable. Tim said to me, your sister feels like she's losing her daughter all over again.
it feels like she's losing her daughter all over again.
Absolutely.Because it was such a living, breathing creature that was such a strong connection.Yes.And the two, Kathleen and the cat, had such a bond.It was just the two of them in that house.Yes.
And now, like... It's like the last living connection to her daughter.
And it's a witness, you know?Totally.
And a witness.I mean, like, yes, the cat is a witness.
You know, and animals, like, feel trauma and take that on.Like, that was a bad night for the cat, too.I'm not comparing it, but I'm just saying, like, they take it on.
Like, the cat knows, like, oh, this person I loved and took care of me, something bad happened to them, and now they're gone.Yes.
I understand feeling that connection.
But, you know, the major thing that is holding back the investigation, we learn, is technology.Like they have, we're going to learn, they have good evidence from the scene.They just can't test it because it's 1980.Yeah.
And as things are progressing, so John Smith is the detective down in Norfolk.
Did you catch his world's greatest detective mug? No.He like takes to the camera, like the first time we like see him in his office, he has his back to the camera and he turns around and takes a sip from his world's greatest detective.
He rehearsed that.Totally.He rehearsed that big time.So as technology is progressing, like every once in a while, they're just trying to see like, is the science there yet?Like, can it help us?
So that's essentially what happens now because he can finally use updated science in Kathleen's case. So there were two specimens of DNA left by the offender.
And they were left on the bedspread.
So he has semen on the bed and semen from the evidence kit that they took.
And they say that the semen from the bedspread had been preserved all of these years.This happened in 1980.It's now 2018.And the bedspread evidence has been preserved.
Yeah.So guess what, everyone?We're using genetic genealogy.Oh, my God.
This is my— I love it, too, when they don't care about the ethics.They just go right for the genetic genealogy.Come on.In some places, like, they can't do it, but apparently Virginia is not one of those places.
Not one of those places.Yeah.
Using genetic genealogy, the lab ultimately yielded 31 names.These are individuals who could either be the potential suspect or they may be a family member of the suspect.
Of those 31 people, it's either the person or someone related to the person or connected to the person.But these people are all over the country.So the cops have to go to all these different states and track them down.
And of 31 people, the very last name on the list is Dennis.
Yeah.And so put a pin in that for one minute, because the very week they start working, this is wild.I mean, like, this is a person on the other side saying, it's time for my case to be solved.
This is Karma, who's a very patient gangster.She is at work here.It is Andrea.It is Kathleen.It is the cat.Honestly, I'm not kidding.It is everyone who is putting some of themselves, like, you got to help us.
But Karma is here with that invisible string.And I'm sorry, Karma is what?Is the most patient gangster ever. That's what it is.Ever.Most patient gangster ever is what that meme says.
So the very week they start looking at this and realizing they've got some DNA they can test, Norfolk, Virginia was the site of the Regional Homicide Investigators Association meeting.
Must have been a hoot and a half.
A hoot and a half.John Smith goes.So basically, it's a bunch of homicide investors getting together, talking about their cases and just sort of from all over the country, not just Virginia.
And that week, Detective Smith had looked up this Bowman guy and sees all these red flags.He learns about Andrea.He learns about the arrest from 1980.
And he takes this information to this party, this meeting, to ask the other investigators about what he felt like.That's kind of the point of this thing.
So Detective Smith is in Virginia.He's working on Kathleen Doyle's case.
And he's at this meeting, which is also in Virginia.
So he meets Brian Fuller, if you remember that name from last week.He came all the way from Michigan.He's working on Andrea Bowman's case.Yes.Just happenstance, these two are getting their scotches at the same time.They bump, like, rubbing elbows.
Oh, what are you from?Oh, where are you from?Oh, what's interesting with you?Like, literally.Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.Like, they're meeting, just chit-chatting.And I'm like, oh, we're really moving now?Thank you, karma.Yes.
John says to him, I'm working on a guy from Michigan who we think might be good for this murder in Norfolk.
I was like, look, man, this is who I am.This is what I'm doing.I said, I did some searches.This guy pops up, an offender in Michigan.He's like, yeah, what's the guy's name?I said, Dennis Lee Bowman.He said,
I know Dennis, I know his family, and that's probably your guy.
Michigan Brian is like, uh, I know Dennis, I know his family, and that is probably your guy.Like the hair on my arms is standing up and I've heard this eight times already.
So they're all like, uh, like the party is over.They all start like combining their research, all the documents.
say Brian, Michigan, Brian says the odds that I was even there, that he brought the case to me and that I was involved in the bombing.It's the case being solved from the other side.
Absolutely.You know what I mean?Absolutely.It's the cat.Do you know about the invisible string theory?No.
The invisible string theory is usually about people, like people who you're connected with, or if you're maybe in a relationship or friendship, you could look back and see all the times you were kind of connected.
This to me is like the invisible string karma theory and other side things all kind of coming together.There's no way this case wasn't going to be solved now.Like at this point in time when everyone is working together.
Oh, and one other thing, because John Smith, Detective John from Virginia goes, and look, I don't have good luck.If there's a storm cloud, I'm going to be under it.I was like, girl, tell me more.Like, what's your bad luck streak, girl?
Yeah, to say it like that?
Like to really be like, I get splashed by cars every day of my, you know what I mean?
Yeah, it's not like he's not losing the lottery.He like owes money.
You know what happened to me today?What?The Dunkin' Donuts gave me almond flavoring instead of vanilla.
Has that ever happened to you? Uh, no.
Almond flavoring is the most disgusting flavor syrup.
Are you alright?Like, do we need to stop?Not really.
I didn't get to have my coffee.And it's Duncan, so I didn't complain.But, like, I'm just saying.
You didn't even say, excuse me?
No, because I was already back at the office where I tasted it.You just wasted it?I threw it away.Well, that's the thing about Duncan.You have to be prepared to throw it away because half the time it's terrible.
But we still love it and we go there.
Okay, great.We both love Duncan, but we're approaching it very differently.We are Kathy and Carl in real time having a very major disagreement in a very respectful way.It's not going to change anything between us, necessarily.
The point is, I want to know more about this rain cloud.We got bigger fish to fry.We got to move on.But, like, bad luck, John.
He did say it.I'm like, well, that streak is over, John.
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It's just, you know, doing Secret Santa.Yeah.I don't know.I'm just saying. So what happens is Virginia John Smith says to Michigan, Brian Fuller, do you know this Dennis Bowman guy?And he's like, yeah, I do.And they're like, how do we both know him?
Yeah.Why is Dennis Bowman have DNA in Virginia?And I know his case in Michigan.What is going on?How are we combining these cases?Let's go through all the paperwork and put it together.
When they go through all the paperwork, what they find is that when Dennis Bowman was arrested for attacking that teenager and trying to kill her in 1980, where the judge said he was a danger to women.
And he ends up going to prison for that?
Yeah.But when he's about to be sentenced for that... I was able to get a court transcript from the 1980 arrest of Dennis Lee Bowman.Your Honor, my client is not here.He is a member of the U.S.
Navy and is away on his two-week summer camp requirement in Norfolk, Virginia.
He's in the Navy and he's been deployed where?Norfolk, Virginia.So that puts him in both of those places at once at the time the year Kathleen was murdered.
Now, this court transcript that says he's in Norfolk is dated September 16th, 1980.That is the week that Kathleen died in Norfolk, Virginia.
Dennis Bowman killed Kathleen Doyle, no question.
No question.But we just had to get him into Virginia and it didn't seem likely for a second.
Because his DNA is there and they're like,
How did that happen?He was doing his two-week required summer training with the Navy in Norfolk, Virginia, the week that Kathleen died.
We're going to get the son of a bitch.We're going to get him so hard.Oh my God, it's going to be so great.But we got to back up for a second.The cops need Dennis Bowman's DNA now in Michigan now.
So they're going to use Kathy's harassment to make friends with Dennis and Brenda.Because remember, Kathy, and I say harassment in this instance with love.
With love, absolutely with love.
Cathy is calling them a hundred times a day.She's threatening, she's threatening them on Facebook saying, I know you killed my daughter.She's buried in my backyard.I'm coming for you, whatever.
She's just like their worst fucking nightmare.
Relentless, in the best way.So now Brenda, knowing her husband is a bad guy, called the cops.I can't take a couple of phone calls, whatever, my Facebook notifications.So basically.They invite them downtown to complain about Cathy.
Because they're calling the cops and the cops are like, why don't you, you know what, you know what?
We really wanna look you in the face and hear this.
We wanna help you with this.Yeah, yeah.Why don't you come in, let us, this is what we're, Brenda, this is what we're here for.You called the right people.Come on down.Yeah.The Bowmans happily saunter in to talk shit about Brenda.Yeah.
They're offered something to drink, Dennis accepts.
I had harassed them so badly that they were so desperate that I chased them into the arms of the police.And criminally savvy Dennis Bowman took that cup and drank out of it and sat it back down.Aberdeen, thank you very much.
bada bing, bada boom, we got his DNA.Kathy couldn't be happier.She goes, I pushed him right into the arms of the police.You sure did, girl.You sure did.And the police love it.
And like, again, dear listener, if you're feeling inspired, would this happen to everyone?Probably not.Yeah, probably not.
This seems like everyone behind the scenes on the other side, whatever, are really helping everyone have a little bit of a sense of humor about this.But most times this could really fuck up a case.
Because also, like, we got to get this guy off the street.He's just killing people left and fucking right.Like, whatever we got to do at this point.
Right.So the DNA comes back from the Kathleen Doyle case.It is 100 percent Dennis Bowman's DNA.
That's Kathleen Doyle in Virginia.
Right.Not even a question.
Now, Dennis Bowman is in custody because he's been arrested.Yeah.Right.For the murder of Kathleen Doyle.John Smith of Virginia.He wants a full confession. So we're going to do a little bit of theater once again.He's taken off his badge.
It's amazing because he goes to see Dennis in prison.And the first thing he does is offer Dennis some food.Dennis can't say no fast enough.He's learned his lesson.
John, I know your tricks.
But John's like, no, you don't.Because John, he's taken off his badge.He's like, just call me John.Just call me John.Like, I know no titles.He's getting the coffee.He wants the snack, all this stuff.And there really is taking a lot of time.
Well, so then finally Bowman says, okay, they get him black coffee and almonds, not salted.Very specific about that.But then we see Dennis on some contraband cell phone talking to Brenda in the interrogation room.
So John leaves for like a second.And yeah, he has like, he's like, don't you, I'm like, don't you know he's on video?
He pulls the cell phone out of his butt or something.
Yeah, like probably.And he's bragging about how, I got this guy John Smith being so nice to me.John Smith is doing this on purpose.John Smith hates you.
for hours and hours.They just, like, chit-chat.They're talking about his aching back, his roll of weapons.His mother never said, I love you.Anything and everything.And let me tell you, Brenda is half mother, half lover to this guy.No question.
Brenda is his mother, and she can't decide if she wants to be his mother or not.Like, it's very fucked up.No question.But Detective Smith is playing the long game here, which, you know, I hate to say, is how you do it.
You have to give a lot to get, like, just a little.
So John Smith like wants this guy to feel understood.He's really, it's like painful to watch.It's painful to do.
But it works.And suddenly Dennis is talking to him about the murder of Kathleen Doyle.
And the killer's in a new outfit, which means this took more than one visit.
Dennis tells him, so this is Dennis's story about the night and how Kathleen died.
Can I say now that it's all a lie?It's all a lie.
It's all bullshit.I mean, he basically says he was on a training mission.He says he was wound up like an eight day clock.
He was in Norfolk for a week and a half.
Yeah.He gets off the ship.He walks into a bar.He says he gets crazy stupid drunk.He's walking back to the base and he sees a dark house with no car in the driveway.And he thinks maybe they've got some money laying around in there.
Any loose change.He's like robbing a house for loose change.
I gotta tell you, the SimpliSafe ads, when I tell you that we were broken into twice while I was home to sleep one time, all they took was change.
They walked right past all the electronics and went into the bedroom where the literal piggy bank was and took that.That's all they took.
Probably because they didn't want to be noticed after the fact.Like, what's something I can take now?They take all your electronics, you'll notice that.
It took us the entire morning to figure out that something had happened.
Exactly.Alright, so I stand corrected.
Not that I was trying to do that.
He like uses a little pen knife to open one of the windows.He gets in, he's kind of walking through, doesn't see anything.
He's looking in the cookie jar.Looking in the cookie jar.Again, everything this guy says is bullshit.
Yeah, goes to the back of the house where he opens a door.
But when I opened the door, she sat up and started to scream and I covered her mouth with my left hand and I went to push her bag down with my right.I still had that little pen knife in my hand.Right.And when I went to push her bag down,
Grab that hand, and it went in right there.And that's when he accidentally stabs her.
Well, because Kathleen somehow gets her hands on the penknife and stabs herself, so now it's Kathy's fault.Yeah.
So the killer says, I finally got her off of me.
She's on the bed.She's still breathing.Then the killer allegedly turns to her and goes, lady, I'm leaving.Yeah.And walks out the door.None of this happened.We know he raped her.We know he killed her.Yes.He is lying.
And so, like, Detective John is still biding his time a little bit because now all of a sudden Dennis is telling him about the demon.Blah, blah, blah.I mean, this is... But, like, even Detective John, like, believes it.
He's, like, his entire voice changed.He sounded like he was possessed.He was completely different when he was talking about the demon.
Yeah, he starts drawing the demon on a piece of paper, whatever.
Yeah, but then finally, like, even Detective John has had it and he's like, do you remember having sex with her?Yeah. Bowman is like, no, no, denying it all.And then John is like leaning in.You beat the hell out of that girl.
You stabbed the hell out of that girl.
And then he starts, the killer starts crying.Crying.Wow, wow, wow.
Anyway, can we talk about Brenda for a second?Because she's a major part of this.Yes, yes.Because we learn, you know, she is absolutely hands down, hopelessly devoted to this guy. Completely.She loves him.She supports him.He's sending her flowers.
They're laughing on the phone.She knows why he's in prison.She knows why he was in prison the last time.God knows what else she knows about.
My only thought here for her is maybe she's in a better mood because she knows he's going to be in prison for the rest of his life.
I mean, how can you watch your kid be starved?How could you know?
How could you have your kid come up to you and say he is molesting me and not believe her and then put her in a position where she can't tell the truth in front of the minister, not feed your daughter and her friends?Yeah.
Like, how can you do happily eat your hamburger and you give your daughter and her friends two pieces of bread with ketchup on them?I know. You're evil, Brenda.
I truly can't even imagine that.Like, the amount of times we've been starving in the car and there's one snack and it goes to Daisy.
Who doesn't even say thank you.
It's not even a question.Well, that you gotta work on.But it's not even a question.Do you know what I mean?
She's just like on the iPad and just like reaches for it.
As it should be.Yes.So thank you. It's because it's inherently not even a conversation she gets the thing it doesn't it truly any parent Imagine a world where you even hesitate know who gets the Snickers I might hesitate, but I'm gonna give it to her
It's like, how she can do... And that's why I'm asking, like, I know that people... Because how many times also on the show do we ask, it takes seven times for someone to leave a shitty situation?I get that.
But, like, knowing what we know about Brenda here, I can't.I can't.
And, like, we have to watch these insufferable, interminable video calls where he's, like, sending her flowers.
But she knows what she... She goes... At one point, she goes, oh, if only you didn't go to Virginia 40 years ago.
Which means it's not just Kathleen.And her name is Kathleen Doyle, Brenda, by the way.Don't say Virginia like it's code.Her name is Kathleen Doyle.She had an amazing life and she was four feet and 11 inches and three quarters.
And don't you forget it, she's a writer.She's a person.Don't fucking do that.Don't do that, Brenda.Because she knows what he did.
I know.I know.And they're just saying, I love you back and forth to each other.
At one point, Kathy, one of our heroes here is like, blows my mind.
What kind of person, what kind of woman stays with that? Thinking about Brenda just lights me on fire.More than Dennis.You know, I blame her just as much.I really do.She had plenty of time to think it through.
And she didn't care about anybody but herself and Dennis.So she deserves my wrath.
What kind of a person stays with a person like that, you know?And there's gotta be an answer, you know?There's gotta be a reason.I was thinking earlier, like, I bet Brenda's backstory is awful, you know?I'm sure it is.I'm sure her growing up
She could have sat down with this documentary and told us a little bit about it, not like we're owed that.Yeah.But she was in that house while this piece of shit was raping Andrea, and she knew about it, and she let it happen.
At some point, she needs to take responsibility for what she allowed to happen over and over and over.She could have left him when he was in prison for five years for trying to kill the teenager.
She says something at the end of this thing that is so horrible.
And the fact that she even said to Kathy at the conference in the last episode, well, you can tell who's the better mother, because at least I say it.Fuck you, Brenda.
You know, it's amazing when we get to Kathy, too, because she goes through all of that, and she's like, all she ever thought about was herself and Dennis.She didn't care about Andrea.She goes, she deserves my wrath.
I know.The power of strength.
Her wrath is utterly terrifying.
So fuck Brenda, but we're going to use this, right?The cops need to find a way to get this guy to talk about Andrea.And so they are going to manipulate his relationship with Brenda.
Because remember, the killer wants to stay in the prison he's in, which is in Michigan.
Right, because if he gets convicted on the Kathleen murder, he's going to go to prison in Virginia.We know that Virginia is too far for Brenda to come visit.
And that's just not going to happen.So they offer the killer a deal.Tell us everything about Andrea and we're going to let you stay.In return for your troubles, you can stay in Michigan with idiot Brenda.
And near Vanessa, the daughter that was born when Andrea was 13 years old, and Vanessa fully supports him, too.
It's wild, because, you know, I have a harder time convicting the daughter, because you just believe what you're told.But, like, Andrea stayed to take care of you.You're the reason that she didn't, like, run away and get herself out of there in time.
And now to hear the young daughter screaming, you're not going to admit to something you didn't do, like, I'm sure she's just been brainwashed.It's not her fault, but it's just very sad and hard to hear.
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Meanwhile, though, the cops are digging up the backyard because remember Kathy with her Google Earth and her drone?She knows something's up in the backyard and everyone knows that something's up.
And the cops are digging up this backyard in Michigan because they want either evidence connected to Kathleen Doyle or anything about Andrea.And they dig up the entire property and they don't find nothing.I'm like, damn it.
Now, the killer then asks the cops.It's a major, major request.He wants to meet in person with his wife, Brenda.
And in a room where they're not separated by glass.He wants a face-to-face with Brenda.
It's a really big ask.Normally, they'd say no, but they're going to make it happen for the sake of trying to get some information.
Yeah, and like, I mean, obviously, it's gonna be monitored.Like, all of our detective friends are gonna be there as well.
And so, like, the day comes, and as he's walking into the room where Brenda, his wife, is, he looks at them and says, I hope you have your cameras rolling.
And I'm like, what is he up to now?
What are you gonna fucking say?So... This is wild.He comes in and he, like, sits on the couch.She's opposite him.
She's, like, across the table.
Yeah, you can, like, cut the tension with a knife.It's very, like, what is gonna happen now?
And they sit down and he admits.
He just comes out with it.
She's dead.She's been dead from the start.
And at first, Brenda is completely still.She will eventually start reacting, but at first, she's as stunned as I think anyone listening to this is, for whatever reason.I don't believe she's all that stunned.I think she knew somehow.
Well, it might just be that like, oh my God, we're admitting to this.
Oh, we're doing this now?
Now the story is, the game has changed.
Maybe, maybe.So here's what the killer says. He drove Brenda to work, comes home, puts the baby, Vanessa, on the couch, leaves the baby unattended.This is the story he's been telling the whole time.
Then he goes upstairs, and only it used to be that he goes upstairs at all, like the cash is missing and a jacket's missing or whatever.And she's gone.And Andrea's gone, right?But in this version, he catches Andrea in the act of leaving.Yeah.
and they get in this major fight, and he says, you can't leave, and refuses to let her leave.And then, according to the killer, Andrea says, well, if you don't let me leave, I'm gonna start telling everyone that you molested me.
Yeah.And he says, no, you're not, and he hits her, and she falls down the stairs, and the fall down the stairs is what kills her, according to the killer.
That he gets to the bottom, she's cold, she doesn't have a pulse, she's not, you know, she's gone, he says.
And now these monsters are both sobbing, to which I say, shut up.
Yeah, both of them are sobbing.And he's saying, I couldn't lose you and Vanessa.She was only 14 months old.If I called the police, I knew they'd put me back in prison.And he starts to tell Brenda what he did with the body.
Again, this is all bullshit, but he says, I wrapped her body, took the body out, hid it in the barn, and then I called the police and said she was missing.
And he says, I left the body out there for a couple of days, and then I found a cardboard barrel.Again, this is really bad.
And I tried to stick her body in the barrel.It wasn't fit. Honey, in order to make it fit, I had to cut her legs off.And then maybe a day or two, when the neighbors set their garbage cans out, I rolled the barrel down and set it next to them.
And the next morning, she was gone.
And the next day, it was just gone.
So we're supposed to believe, too, that Brenda didn't notice a body in the garage, a dead body in the garage for days and days and days.
The daughter's missing for days and you're looking everywhere for her, but you didn't check the garage.
And then the cops didn't find it there either because you reported her missing so that when the cops went to the house, they didn't see that in the garage.
Right.Or like a fall down the stairs killed her.Yeah.
I mean, I here's what I believe that some of that might have been sure that she was making a break for it because they were out of the house and Vanessa wasn't there and he caught her leaving trying to run away.Maybe.
But again, I do believe that she wants to stay there for Vanessa.I don't know.But if if any if any part of this story is true, it's that he caught her trying to leave and he wouldn't let her
Well, he'll say later that the best lie is one that is mostly true.So maybe this is mostly true.You know what I mean?
People who lie, a lot of it starts with like, there's always a little bit of truth.We hear this all the time.
Because the body is gone.We're never going to know what actually happened to the body.We're never, he's never going to be able to prove to us that she hit her head on the, like, you know what I mean?Like he did something horrible to her.
I believe that he confronted her.She said, I'm going to tell people what you've been doing to me.He couldn't have that.And he killed her.
Right. So Brenda believes all of this and stands by him even after this confession.Yeah.And now, like, that's where we just keep going back to, like, but she knew about the abuse.Like, Andrea's friends were there during it.
What was going on behind closed doors when the friends weren't there?That's how you treat your daughter.You hit her and you don't feed her and you don't feed her friends.You're doing this in public.Right.What are you doing in private?And Brenda knew.
And one of the things, too, is that like when he's being interviewed by the cops after he tells his story, they're like, well, what did you think when you were hearing about sightings of her?And he's like, I was thrilled.It took the heat off of me.
I mean, I mean, look, what a gift to give this piece of shit.
Right.You know, right.And like also, Brenda, your husband has been lying to you for 40 years because he killed Kathleen Doyle.Yes.He killed the daughter you were supposed to love.
He was already in prison for trying to kill that teenager and sexually assault her. Yeah.Like, it's just like, he's in prison now, so you can go now.Like, you can leave now.And she refuses.
Right, right.I mean, like, that is the thing, right?Like, she's away from him now, but she doesn't even want to be.
She doesn't want to be.And, like, all of Andrea's friends and family are like, nah, she's just as bad.Like, she needs to rot in hell, too.Like, she needs to go away for just as long as the killer.
So nobody believes the story about putting the body out with the trash.So now they start intercepting his letters.
They were always intercepted.
But like my question is, doesn't he know that?
That's what I don't, like there's a lot here where it's like, I think he just wants to be done with it, but he doesn't want to, I think he just wants it all to be out there, but he just doesn't want to say it right away.
And I think he wants to drag Brenda along for the ride.
Well, because he starts writing to Brenda that he's going to tell her and only her that he didn't actually chop her up and put her in the barrel.
Yeah, he starts contradicting his confession and these letters to Brenda.
I placed her body in a proper grave next to a private graveyard.She was wearing jeans and her favorite sweater.She has a gold necklace with a heart and a cross on it.I wrapped her in a clean white sheet, neat and tight like a mummy.
I put on her favorite sweater and her gold necklace with a heart and a cross on it.And I put a red ribbon on the sheet and Brenda's like, really?That's nice.
Well, because also it's just like, well, then just tell us where the body is.
If the body didn't get thrown away and we can actually go find it, you know, we're going to learn that he's trying to like give Brenda some peace of mind or what he's trying to keep Brenda on his side.
Right. Right.But now the cops are like, OK, like everyone's fucking over this guy.He's just lying.I think the cops are starting to realize, like, we're just giving this guy too much airtime.We're just giving him too much attention.
They start using Brenda against the killer.
Now, she seems willing here.
Yeah, because, like, the point is, like, he has involved her now, and she's his only ally, and they're gonna try to use this to their advantage because they want Brenda to get him to tell everyone where Andrea is so that he can stay in Michigan.
Because now they're using this Michigan-Virginia thing, and she's like, honey, sweetheart... If you tell them where the body is, you can stay in Michigan, and Vanessa and I can come and visit you.
And if you don't, you gotta start telling the truth or else.Like, don't worry, I'm super gonna stay with you, though.
And the cops are coaching her.The cops are saying, like, you gotta make him believe that he owes you this, that he took Andrea away from you all those years ago.The least he can do is tell you where the body is now so you can have her remains.
And you can tell, like, Brenda's starting to break under the pressure.Not that she's going to forget, but, like, you can hear it in her voice and you can hear her saying, like, but why did you lie to me?Like, it's starting to crack a little bit.
There's a lot of tension there.
There is, and you can hear her.She's got questions and, like, she's starting to kind of think for herself even a little bit.
Or she's finally, like, she can't ignore it all anymore. It's like, we're here now, Brenda, two murders, and God knows how many assaults and other murders later.Like, we're here now.You can't run from this.
Because remember, the murder of Kathleen was done too precisely for it to have been his first murder.And we don't know, we still don't know what other murders he did before that.
And when he was traveling for a week at a time, Brenda, how many times was he stationed places?Really think about, use your mind and think about all the times.Like he was in Virginia when he killed Kathleen Doyle for like a week.
He was preying on people.Like he was doing this quickly.So think about all the other times he must've done it.
So I just have a note here.I don't even know what it's about.It's just says, Kathy's at her wits end.
Okay. Because finally, there is a big bombshell on one of the calls between the killer and Brenda.
And the killer, everyone, like, get ready.
We didn't live here.We weren't even... Brenda, she's killer.When we found out we were moving, I took the door over to our house, I dug the hole, and I put the girl in it.
Andrea is buried in their backyard, just like Kathy, her birth mom, said.
And the backyard where they live now, which is not the backyard they lived when she went missing when he killed her.Just to underline what you said, this is what Kathy's been saying the whole time.Yeah.
And remember, they dug up the yard and they didn't find anything, but he's saying she is there, she's been there the whole time.
And Brenda's like, wait a second.She, Brenda literally says, but you didn't even live there when you killed her.
I know.I know.And according to the killer, he said he had buried her in a barrel in the backyard of the home where they lived.Then when he learned that they were moving, he dug up the barrel and then buried it in the backyard of their new home.
To which I'm saying, this person has a daughter missing.He's digging up a barrel and moving, like, did nobody see anything?
I mean, how is that possible?
I don't know.I don't know.
I guess they just live in the middle of nowhere, but, like, he's the creepy guy that has already been to prison.
Yeah, everybody hates him.
Everybody hates him.Like, he must have done it at 3 in the morning when, I mean, but, like, not a single person saw the creepy guy digging up the barrel in the backyard.
You know what?It doesn't matter, because Kathy was right.Yeah.Kathy was right the whole time.Yes.Like, it's just like Kathy was saying, and everyone was like, Kathy, you know, I don't know.Like, don't get your hopes up.
She was right the whole time she knew it.
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They go and they dig up the yard again, and I gotta say, like, what stood out to me in this was, like, they bring in an excavation team.They wanna do this absolutely right.
If she really is buried there, because they bring in a backhoe, and so, like, it's a big, powerful machine, but as soon as they see anything that implies there might be human remains, they stop, and they literally bring out the toothbrushes.
Yeah, yeah.And so, Kathy was right, Andrea's body is found.Her remains were found within four different bags inside the remnants of that barrel.
And when we found her, she was found in a trash bag of diapers. probably didn't mask the smell.
She was buried in a barrel with, like, her body was dismembered into four bags.Yeah.And they had, like, so he put the bags in the barrel and then surrounded the barrel with dirty diapers.
From Vanessa, baby Vanessa.
To mask the smell.And it cuts right to Kathy, who says that's who Dennis Bowman is. 100%. He killed her daughter, dismembered her, and then buried her with dirty diapers.
And he's always been like that.You know, that's exactly who he's always been.And even Brenda is like, but what about that beautiful burial?Like, was that a lie too?And I'm like, yes, Brenda, it's all a lie.It's all a lie.Everything has been a lie.
And then she says like, but nothing has changed.I still love you.And I'm like ripping my hair out.
And she wants to make sure he hears her.Because like, as she's saying, I still love you, as they're saying, you have one minute left for the call. Did you hear me, Denny?Did you hear me?
Don't be mad.Don't be mad.And then it comes out to the surprise of absolutely nobody but Brenda that there are many, many other instances of the killer assaulting other women.Yes.
And one of the cops says he is a serial violent sexual offender and murderer.
Yeah.Now, he has admitted to all of these things in his police interrogation.So he says he sexually assaulted a woman in San Diego right before they got married, two more after they got married.
In the early 80s, he assaulted a woman in a trailer park, but he denies being the person who abducted Meta, which I don't buy.I think it was definitely him.
No. Yeah, I don't buy it at all.He definitely doesn't.
Which is like, this is the thing about these criminals that makes me insane.Why are you admitting to things and then not admitting to other things?
The selective honesty.Because it's like Meta is still here and she's alive and wouldn't it be great to give her some closure and he's not going to give it to her.
And it cuts to Meta.She's like, I know it was him.
It was obviously him.You're not fooling anybody.Right.
The cops are calling him on all of the bullshit, right?Yeah.And it cuts to Kathy, who just says, like, she just says out of nowhere, I want to solve his other crimes.Yes.
She says, maybe I'm filled with the spirit of every woman he raped, every woman he killed, every child he abused.Maybe I'm filled with the spirit of all of those people.And that makes me his worst nightmare.
And you cannot tell me that somebody is not developing a show with her where she solves his other crimes.
I mean, what about the Racine Jane Doe?
Who is that?Did we get to the bottom of that?Like, that's another thing that needs to be solved.Also, the reason they thought it was Andrea is because a lot of things... Yeah, matched up.Matched up.So I wonder... Yeah.
You know?But we still need to get to the bottom of the racing Jane Doe.
So it's February 7th, 2022, sentencing.They send his ass back to Virginia.
Oh, my God.This is my favorite part.They said that, like, we had dangled the idea of letting him stay here, but we are not going to let him have control over anything.Absolutely not.
And, like, you cannot tell me Brenda's actually sad he's going to Virginia and she never has to visit him ever again.
She's gonna rot in prison for the rest of his miserable life, and it brings me a little bit of glee.And as we're winding down, Kathleen Doyle's aunt is here, the aunt who, but they felt like sisters.
And she just says this really beautiful thing about how Kathleen is all around her.
We would buy each other lilacs as presents.It was our flower.And every time the lilacs bloom in spring, I tell her, Kathleen, the lilacs are out. And I smell the blooms, and I tell her how much I miss her.
It's just another reminder, again, like we always try to do, like, to not have any of the victims get lost here.Like, Kathleen was a fully-formed, awesome person.
She says, don't let the person who did the awful thing be the person who's remembered.Let them remember the young women who have died.
Yes.Yeah.You know?And so, like... But we got to, I'm sorry, we got to get back to that worthless skin sack, Brenda, because she does this absolutely, truly, like she could have, she really could have turned a little bit of a corner here.
There was an opportunity presented to her where she could have done the right thing and maybe started to be like a person and join the human race a little bit.But no, because she, Brenda, gives Kathy the birth mom.
Kathy, who we wouldn't be here if not for Kathy.
Right, that murder would never have been solved.
And she gives Kathy, the birth mom, half of Andrea's ashes.
Which is, we learn this at the sentencing.So at the sentencing, we hear the cops say to her, hey, can we talk to you privately?And then we hear them tell her she wants to give you half.And like, even the cops are trying to imply that it's generous.
And Kathy is incensed because she's saying, she took my daughter who had been chopped up by her father and chopped her up even further.And she says, did she give me the top half or the bottom half?
Yeah, she's saying it as like, what am I supposed to do here?Yeah.How am I supposed to, you know?And now Kathy is like angrily sobbing.Yes.And Brenda, this fucking nightmare, is basically saying, Kathy, you should be grateful.
You should be lucky I gave you half.
How could she operate with that?Like, it's just so cruel and just a fundamental misunderstanding of what actually happened here and who did it.
Right.Because Brenda will never accept any responsibility here.She doesn't.Brenda thinks of herself as a victim, too.And Kathy said earlier in the documentary, Brenda, you are not a victim. you are equally as culpable for what happened here.
You just let it all happen.And the endless forgiveness and love and what you did to, how you infected Vanessa to your daughter to defend this guy.The defense of him is just like... It's horrible.
It's horrendous.And Kathy, you know, says in the end, she's like, I feel a little haunted by Alexis.
She's not completely gone.You know, I mean, I'm as close as you're gonna get to her spirit. I almost became her.A more mature, more angry her.It was like walking into a fire.And that transformed me.
I walked into the fire and that transformed me and nobody else can see it and only she can feel it.But it's there and it's real.She says, I need to find the other side of the fire.
And, you know, the Bowmans, they both declined to be interviewed.And the killer serving two life sentences in Virginia and law enforcement officials state that the full extent of his violent crimes may never be known.
But I want to go back to the beginning for a second.
Kathy, because it ends with her talking about the fire and the beginning, that really powerful imagery of her, like, sitting here talking and then being, like, really calm next to the fire.And I just like... She mobilized her anger.
She's not consumed by it.
Because she starts and if you were a person who's definitely not a listener of TCO, but it could be very easy to be like, oh, just such an angry woman, like another angry mad woman.Right.And like, no, no, no.She used it.
And that's she mobilized her anger and she can sit next to the fire with her eyes closed because she's not consumed by it anymore.
You know, she laughs throughout.She's happy to meet people.She loves her husband.Like, she's a woman.She's a fully formed person.She's, you know, like anybody, she's dealt with trauma.She will deal with this for the rest of her life.
But like you said, she's not consumed by anger.
Yeah.She walked into the fire, through the fire, through the trauma, and she's on the other side of it, so she can look into the fire now. and be at peace.
Kathy's got a lot of work to do.I think we're going to see a lot more of her.I think that she's been motivated to, you know, my guess is she's going to go out there and solve a bunch of shit that needs solving.
Absolutely.And like, I mean, God, you know, we always say to like, just because someone can doesn't mean they should.
But she's so good at it, and you could see, I mean, no pun intended, but, like, the fire is there in her, like, the drive and the passion to do it, because she's seen firsthand how hard it can be and what the good it can do.
So, if she chooses to do more work, I just, I think she can really change this world for good.And if she chooses to just sit by the fire with her dogs, then she should do that, too.
Fam, just real quick, remember, we've got a full interview with Cathy live on Patreon right now.Like we said in the intro, she is gonna break some news.We talk about everything from the episode.
She was just wonderful and opinionated and didn't hold anything back.
Yeah, super generous with her time and her soul.You know, like she was just not here to hold back.She was just here to speak her truth and stand into that and walk through that fucking fire.And man, does she make me riled.I love her.
I know, she's incredible.It's live right now at the $5 level on Patreon. Go check it out patreon.com true crime obsessed.
We always say like stay stupid to the bad guys, but stay angry everyone else We gotta get shit done.We have a lot of work to do Kathy says it's okay to be angry.So let's do it.
All right, girl, tell them what we're doing next.It's a big one.
It's a big one.This is the Menendez Brothers on Netflix.It's one documentary.We're doing it in one episode.
We are not doing like the nine part Ryan Murphy feeling thing that they did.
Fuck Ryan Murphy and fuck what he did.That was horrifying what he did.And that he's running his mouth about it.No, we're doing the documentary that Eric and Lyle are a part of.
Yes, yes, yes.Yeah, they're telling their story.I've watched it three times.I am insane.It's so crazy. So, fam, stay tuned for the trailer for that.And we love you.We love you.Okay.This has been an intense couple of weeks, girl.
I know.And you know what?We're just getting started.It's not slowing down.No, not at all.
Not even close.All right, bye.Bye.
My name is Eric Menendez.My name is Lyle Menendez, calling you from Donovan Correctional Facility.Lyle was the only person that had ever protected me. What happened that night is very well known, but so much hasn't been told.
If anyone had written this for a script in Hollywood, the Hollywood people would have gone no way.
The Menendez case is one of the most infamous criminal trials in America.The brothers accused of the murder of their wealthy parents in Beverly Hills.
It was like an incredible soap opera.
Jose was a successful businessman.Kitty was the caring mother.Two boys emblematic of wealth and privilege.Why would you kill your parents?
As the prosecutor, I knew it was plain old greed.
There was a media spectacle from the beginning, so we were not the ones who told the story of our life.We looked like the perfect family, but behind the walls, something very wrong was happening.
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