Fam, before we get to the show, this is breaking, breaking, breaking news.We have a full interview with Cathy, our protagonist, Andrea slash Alexis's mother, live right now at the Patreon.We did this interview on Friday, like three days ago.
Girl, tell them what they are in store for.
Yeah, she is exactly the powerhouse you see in this documentary.It was an honor and a privilege, I mean it sincerely, to be in the same airspace even though it was virtual over Zoom.
She is fantastic and she will inspire you and make you feel a lot of things.So please, please listen to it.She's phenomenal.
She's gonna get you riled up.She's gonna get you angry.She answers a ton of questions that we had about the documentary.She breaks some news.She tells us about other potential victims of Dennis Bowman.
It is a fascinating, fabulous interview through which she was drinking her red wine at one in the afternoon and God damn it, we love her.
She told us that after the fact, like I said, I would've probably prepared.You know what, I already miss her.I love her vibe, I love her energy.I know, I know.
She's the best.So go check it out right now, it's live right now on Patreon.Patreon.com slash True Crime Obsessed.We'll also drop a link in the show notes and go listen to our interview with Cathy.And now to the show.
Kathy is a force of nature.Kathy is a force of nature.
We have been surrounded by such strong women in our coverage lately, from the Lacey Peterson documentary, Worst Ex Ever, Mastermind on Patreon.It is so nice.I love them all.Because what are we doing?Oh, we're doing it to the fire.
Oh, I was going to say, we're letting the women do the work.Oh, and we're letting the women do the work.We're letting Kathy in particular.Do the work.I love her.
Hi, Jillian Bethevalli.Hi, Patrick Hines.Fam, join us over in the Patreon if you want to hang out with me and GP more often.Just to break down what goes on over there.At the $5 level, you get a full ad-free bonus episode every single week.
It's where we cover all the series on like Netflix and Hulu and all those.We do an after-party tier where we hang out with you. And then we do this one tier, the Hero Bell tier, where we literally make episodes just for them.
We do other really fun audio and video things just for them.We send them things every year.We send them that fancy calendar that you're always seeing.
Yeah, it's stuff just specifically for the Hero Bells.
Yeah, and it comes like straight in the mail and it's so much fun.So if you're interested in any of that, it's truecrimeobsessed.com and just click on the Patreon link.The Patreon fam is strong and we love them.
We love Patreon so much.Thank you, everybody.
And what are we talking about today, girl?
So we are doing into the fire the lost daughter.Here's the thing.Yeah, this is I feel like a broken record, but it's true.So so so highly requested.Yes.So we're doing this in two parts.
And I know we just did a two parter with the Lacey Peterson coverage.But this has been so highly requested that we just we this is the only way to do it.
We put it to the fam and we said, you want us to wait?And they said, no, do it now, however you have to do it.So here's what we're doing.Right now, this is our regular episode on the regular feed, obviously.
Part two is available right now and ad free at the $5 tier on Patreon.And then it will be our regular episode next week.
So you can get it right now if you're not already on the Patreon, or if you are, you can just scoot right over there and listen to it when you're done with episode one.
She'd been missing 21 years when they finally found me. I was only 17 years old when I put my daughter up for adoption.Throughout my life, she was always in my mind.When I found out she went missing, I thought, I gotta find this kid alive.
I don't care if I have to walk over God's green earth.Do it.If I couldn't do anything else for her, I was gonna do this.
Right away, we jump right in.Like, this doesn't usually happen.Like, usually the first two minutes of a documentary is like a sort of a summary of the whole thing.No.No, we get Kathy right at the top.
The first, also, sorry.Sorry, but the first millisecond of the music we hear reminded me so much of Who's Afraid of Little Old Me by Taylor Swift, which you know I'm obsessed with.And it's an amazing song for Kathy and fucking angry women everywhere.
Because she's like sitting by the fire with her man.
Right.So, like, this woman has so much strength and power just sitting and being still.Like, she's a force to be reckoned with.And she starts out by saying, her daughter's case wasn't unsolved.It was uninvestigated.
And then she says, I, like, discussed this in therapy.It moved me so much.She talks about how anger is such a motivator.Yes.
Because she's like, You can't run on anything else.You can run on anger.It doesn't need to be fed.It doesn't need to sleep. It might kill you, but you want to get something done, get good and angry.
But if you want something done, get good and angry.Yeah.And as she so she's sitting being interviewed by the camera.Right.
And as she's talking about her anger and how she used that as motivation, it is cutting back to shots of her by the fire, this roaring, roaring fire.
It's like an outdoor fire.Yeah, it's like a spot fire.Like, they're in, like, parkas.They're, like, in Massachusetts, like, out of, like, a fire in the winter.
And so, as she's saying this, it's cutting back to her by the fire, sitting at peace with her eyes closed.
And I'm like, I'm already crying.I know.This is gonna be... I mean, just to start off like that is, I think, so moving and powerful.
It's so powerful.And I had to go back and re-watch it right before you got here.I just wanted to, like, I wanted to get into the spirit of that by watching that.
I was like, Mike, can you come in here for a second?I have to show you this.Yeah.
It's a really, really good way to start a documentary show.Well done, everybody.We open in Gloucester, Massachusetts, which, by the way, just coming from Massachusetts, Gloucester is so beautiful.
Yeah, it's spelled like Glotchester.
Yes, it's another one of those towns like Worcester and Haverhill.Gloucester is amazing.But we meet Ed and Kathy.
Yeah, Kathy and Ed met in a bar in 1991, the old-fashioned way, in a bar, says Kathy.
She came in in her nurse outfit, and they hung out at the bar that night.They never expected to see each other ever again.They ran into each other a couple of days later, and they have not been apart from each other a day since.
Yeah, they moved from New Orleans to Massachusetts.
She quit her job, rented a U-Haul trailer, loaded up all her stuff and her dog, and drove from New Orleans up here to this house in Massachusetts.And along the way, we stopped at the chapel at the University of Virginia.
And we were married about 10 weeks after we met.And that was 32 years ago.
They went full lesbian.They rented the U-Haul and everything, like legitimately full lesbian.Yeah.If they weren't listening to Indigo Girls' rites of passage the entire way, what were they doing?
Yeah, they literally pulled over to get married.I know.
I love that.I feel like every lesbian listening was like, that's how you do it.
That's how you do it.10 weeks after they met, they're like, 10 weeks.Why'd you wait so long?Yeah, right?
Going really slow rolling on that one.
These two have been together over 30 years.I know.And they love each other.
I gotta tell you, like, I met Steve.We went on our first date.He would not come home with me because he said he liked me too much.
The next night we went on another date, he did come home with me and we've not been apart a night since unless one of us has to like go out of town for work.
And it's been 17 years.17 years, wow.
Isn't that wild?That's great.
17 years.My lesbian mother raised me right, girl.
You know what I'm saying?
I know.How long till my soul gets a ride?
It's what's always playing in my head.
I know it is.It's never not playing.I know.
I believe it.I can take it up a notch.
No, I think it's okay.I think we're good.Right, Kathy?Kathy agrees.Kathy knows a thing or two about telling a story and getting a story told.
Listen, just before we move on, one time at one of the meetups this summer, I did karaoke, and I told everyone I was going to sing Pink Pony Club, and I was ready to nail it, and I did not nail it.
Yeah.Go to my Instagram if you want to see it.I did not nail it.
You tried your hardest.Pink Pony Club.Sounds like an easy song.No.It's not.Do you want to hear a fun fact?Sorry, Kath.I take it back.Cyndi Lauper used to get a lot of shit for... Cyndi Lauper's amazing.Her voice is incredible.
If you've never seen her live, you can't know.Her voice is just insane.
Her story's amazing.Read her book.She's excellent.Obviously, I don't know why I'm teaching the kids about Cyndi Lauper.
But there was some interview where she was saying how people would give her shit for Girls Just Wanna Have Fun, like, it's a stupid song, it's flighty, it's ridiculous, there's no substance to it, which we all know is a lie.
But she was like, sing that at karaoke, I dare you.It is hard.As someone who works at a karaoke bar for years, I'm like, you guys think you can do Girls Just Wanna Have Fun?It is up there, her voice is so strong.It is wild.
It is a deceptive, it's a deceptively hard song to sing, and I say that as a compliment.
And if you have a problem with Cyndi Lauper, you can keep on walking.
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Me too.The look on your mouth.Meow. So we get Kathy's backstory.She said she was only 16 when she had her baby in 1974, and she gave the baby up for adoption, and she says that decision has always haunted her.
Yeah, so this is before she met Ed and got married.Yeah.Kathy explains that she was kind of struggling with taking care of her baby.
And I was very vulnerable, and my mother cornered me, and she said, you need to give her up for adoption.You can't take care of this baby.You don't know what you're doing. So I didn't know how to prove I was worthy of my child.
So this wasn't like she made the decision while she was pregnant and the baby went to the adoptive parents at the hospital, as it can happen a lot.This was like she raised the baby for nine months and then gave the baby up.
Yeah.And she says like, look, I was having a hard time.But her mother to say her mother cornered her and forced her.
At 16, you're so young and vulnerable.She says, I didn't know how to prove that I was worthy of my child.
And, and, and, and, maybe the most important thing here, Kathy was promised that her daughter would go to the best, most loving home in the world, that the parents would provide for her things that Kathy would never be able to give her.
She was giving her daughter up for a better life for the daughter.Right.
So that's what she was told.That's what she believed.She was struggling with this decision, but she did it.
And she said, if I couldn't give her anything else, I was going to give her this.
Right.So this was in Norfolk, Virginia.We will get back there.Yeah.Now, it's 35 years later.It's 2010.35 years later, Kathy gets a letter from the adoption agency.Now, she thought it was going to say, your daughter's looking for you.
Which would have been like a dream because she has been thinking about her daughter every day since she gave her up.And it was hoping that someday they would be reunited.
Right. That's not what happens here.So this is 2010, remember?So in 1989, which was 21 years ago in 2010, the letter says, your daughter went missing.She was 14 years old.We think we found her body, but we need your DNA to prove it's her.
So can you just send that over?
So just to be clear on the timeline, Kathy is getting this letter in 2010 about her daughter who went missing in 1989.They recently found a body in 2010 they think might be the body of her daughter.
And Kathy's like, why did it take you 21 years to reach out to me, by the way?Because Kathy, like you just can't even imagine that letter, like the emotions you're going through.
You think it's your daughter and then you realize this tragedy happened and they also need your help.But also you don't have any parental rights because you gave them up.
And also you've been dreaming all your life about reuniting with your daughter and now you're learning she's been missing for 21 years.
I know.So Kathy, of course, gives her DNA.Yeah.And now she has to wait.But in the meantime, Kathy connects with the police and the adoption agency.She's like, I need to know more about this.
What happened to my daughter who was supposed to have the most amazing life ever?And why is it taking you 21 years for any movement here?
Guess what, Kathy, you're going to have to wait a little longer because the police and the adoption agency will tell her nothing.
Because she gave the baby up for adoption.She, like you said, doesn't have any parental rights.So she just like hits the gook machine. She turns to Ed and she's like, hey, we know her birthday.
Can you just do a Google search for a kid around that birthday that has been missing?Ed finds her in 10 minutes.I know.
So Kathy named her daughter Alexis Miranda Badger.She is now Andrea Michelle Bowman.So Andrea is spelled A-U-N-D-R-I-A, Andrea. So, she lives in Hamilton, Michigan.So, Alexis-Andrea.
Kathy is gonna call her daughter Alexis a lot of this, so Alexis-Andrea.
They're the same person.Kathy just says, like, at first, she sees pictures, and she's like, at first, I didn't recognize her, but then I looked at her eyes, and she looks just like me.
And everybody who's gonna meet Kathy who knew Andrea is gonna say the same thing to her.
It's like I'm looking at Alexis-Andrea right now.So, Kathy can't find anything else about her daughter, so she starts a Facebook page, the Find Andrea Bowman Group.
Yeah, because she says, I know that kids go looking for each other.I was like, I knew nothing about computers when this all started.Welcome, members.If any of you were close friends of Andrea, we'd love to hear from you.
Please drop us a line via private message to this Find Andrea M. Bowman Facebook page.Thanks.Suddenly everything just started happening.
And within a minute, we see all these messages.Oh my God, I knew your daughter.I went to high school with her.I always wondered what happened to her, what did happen to her.The Facebook group is exploding.
Yeah, it moves really, really fast.So now we meet Sue, who's Andrea's relative via her adopted family.So she reaches out through this Facebook group and offers a lot of information.She's actually here with us today.
Yeah, and she's saying that, like, Andrea was such a gift to the Bowman family.Like, she came in, she was this beautiful little girl.Everyone just loved her.
Yeah, so Alexis was adopted and then named Andrea by Brenda and Dennis Bowman.So Brenda is Sue's husband's cousin.
Like, don't even worry about any of that.
It doesn't matter.Cousin Sue, whatever.
Yeah, because Sue is just real.I didn't mean to, like, dismiss what you were saying.It's a complicated thing to try.Sue is here on behalf of the Bowman family because nobody else is.
And Sue is here for herself and for Andrea as well.So, Brenda and Dennis, they met in high school.Dennis is in the Navy.That's important.They got married in 1971.Dennis was stationed in San Diego, and then they moved to Norfolk, Virginia.
Yeah.And, you know, they had trouble conceiving, and they went into the adoption system, and maybe a year or two later, they were matched with this ten-month-old baby girl.They adopt her.They named her Andrea.
And they settle down in Hamilton, Michigan.So, we're told it's a quiet, sleepy town.There's a gas station and a lot of people.
Tons of churches, the school and a grocery store.And it says you had to go to church if you were out of that norm, you were looked at very different.And I was like, but then we're also told that it's also a town where everybody knows your business.
So on the church front, I would have been the town outcast.But on the gossip front, I think I would have done okay.
I don't know, because everything takes place in church.All the gossip is happening in church.
No question.I would have gone to church.I'll go to church for the hot goss.
Okay.In the parking lot, probably, right?
I don't mind church.I grew up an ultra boy.
That's fine.You shouldn't be looked down on it if you're the one person who doesn't go.
I would bridge the gap.I'd be like, let's be friends with the non-church goers and see how that went.Oh, God.
You'd be a non-church goer soon enough, I think.I don't know.I just went to this town.It's just how it was described to us.Sorry, Hamilton, Michigan.I'm sure some of you are lovely.
I just want the hot goss.
So they have adopted Andrea.
And 13 years later... Because they couldn't have kids. Yeah.13 years later, Brenda gets pregnant and she has her daughter, Vanessa.Now, Cousin Sue, I'm going to say something here.Cousin Sue means well here.She's on the right side of history.
She's very helpful.It was a different time, but she says something here that kind of hurt my feelings.Oh no.Because she's like, oh my God, they had a daughter, Vanessa.How wonderful.Now they have a family.Oh no.
And I was like, Sue, again.I know. Because I watched this all the way through once before I really started diving into it.She's on the right side of history, but we got to stop doing this.I'm an only child.I don't have a kid.
Don't tell me that my family is not the same because one, I didn't have a kid of my own or two, my mom only had me.
I actually get some DMs.I've gotten many DMs about this saying like, hi, so what, did you hate being an only child?Like, did it fuck you up at all?Because I think, I don't know if my husband and I or my family and I are going to have another kid.
So like, we just want to know we're not going to fuck up the one we have.And I'm like.
Um, can I tell you how much my only child loves being an only child?
I loved my childhood.I had a great fucking childhood.My trauma comes from other places, like plenty of places, like my family life.Yeah.No trauma there from my childhood.No way.That was the bullies in school.
But like I, so my answer is always like, you have to do what's right for your family.My experience was awesome.
Our daughter, who has decided that she's gonna now start sleeping with her bedroom door closed, hand writes notes, it says, keep out, and then under it it says, and I love you.Sounds about right.
And then in the morning, when we're allowed to come in, she puts a sign up at the door that says, come in.Very independent.With a line under it that says, and I love you. Keep out and I love you.I will put a picture of it in the Facebook group.
I love that.That's a very only child thing to do.I love it so much.
I love you.Leave me alone.
Keep out and I love you.Make good merch.Look, keep out.I love you.
But we're meeting all of Andrea's high school friends, and they were just telling us all about what it was like to be in high school in 1989, and I'm telling you, I missed, like, I was born too late, because I should have been in high school in 1989.
Wait, yeah, because Andrea's friends are saying.Andrea was a lot of fun.I remember being at her house, being in her bedroom, and listening to Cyndi Lauper and Madonna.
Of course, you know, you're in a room, you turn the radio up, and you just start dancing around a lot. trying to say it.Girls just want to have fun.
Back to Cyndi Lauper dancing to Madonna and Cyndi Lauper.Yes, the big hair.
Yeah.They would spend all day, all morning doing their hair.Then they would go to sleep on it.They had to get up and do it all over again.
I mean, that gel, it's so crunchy.
Oh, my God.Give me the hairspray and a blow dryer, please.Give me some mall bangs.
Yeah.And Audra's friends are saying, like, she was a typical teenager.She wanted to fit in.Like, sometimes they describe her as being a chameleon.Like, she would just change her behavior based on who she's in front of at the time.
And, like, every 15-year-old kid did that because no one wants to be bullied.
What her friend Michelle is like, she was just a normal teenager.She didn't do great in school and she would talk back to the teachers.
So normal.Normal teenager shit.
Was I just like a weirdo, loser, nerd?Like I would, talking back to the teachers, I would never.
I don't think everyone talked back to the teacher, but I think it's like, oh, oh, she wasn't totally perfect and the fucking homecoming queen and amazing grades.Join the club.
That is like a myth that society and television and movies and John Hughes has made up for us.Like there is no like perfect, Actually, none of the kids in John Hughes movies had a perfect high school experience.
I'm just saying, like, that to me is the one where it's like an outlier, where it's like, whoa, you have a football team and a homecoming queen?Like, that's like out of the movies.
Like, if I meet someone who had that high school experience, I'm like... Well, we did.
We had a football team and a homecoming queen.
I didn't have either of those things.
I think Jen Butz was our homecoming queen.How's she doing now?She's a very good person.
Great. It literally is, like how she do it now.
She's a very, very nice person.
She probably, no one in her life knows she was the homecoming queen.She doesn't care about it.
Oh, you're absolutely right about that.
She doesn't care.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But anyway, so we, Dennis, the adopted dad, henceforth known as the dad.The dad.
We hear him on some police recording, because he's saying, blah, blah, blah, I guess everybody liked her and she was fine, but when she was 12 or 13, it was like somebody just flipped a switch.
Well, that's when baby Vanessa entered the chat, number one.Correct.So that's when the new baby came.Yes.But according to the dad.
And all of a sudden, away from home.She's taking drugs from kids at school.She's shoplifting.She's lying.One day she got mad at my wife and stuck her fist in the front window of the door.I mean, we were taking her to counselors and this and that.
She was very violent, actually, now that we're asking about it, says the dad.
Yeah, and he says we started taking her to counselors.But, like, the counselors we're gonna learn they were taking her to were, like, the church counselors.
They were taking her to their minister and talking to Andrea in front of the parents, which is bullshit.Exactly, which we'll get to.
But on the same police tape, they're asking Brenda and Dennis about the day that Andrea went missing.
Yeah, so they say Andrea went to school.She was picked up, quote, after some band thing.And I'm like, okay, so your parents who are involved... Super invested. Andrea was super quiet.
Dennis the dad drives Brenda the mom to work and leaves Andrea home.They take Vanessa the baby on the ride.And the excuse is like so that Andrea didn't have any excuse to not do her homework.
She couldn't be like, oh, I didn't do my math homework because I was too busy watching the baby.So they sort of left Andrea alone.So she would be forced to do her homework.That's their story.
And Dennis, the dad, comes home by himself with the baby.He says that when he got home, the house was unlocked.Andrea wasn't there.
6.30 in the evening.The door to the parent's bedroom was busted open.Apparently, they locked it from the outside.
So he comes home.He puts baby Vanessa on the couch, leaves her unattended as he goes upstairs, which is, I think, very odd.
If the baby's old enough to roll, that's not a good thing.
They're old enough to where you put them in the little, you swaddle them, they look like a little burrito Can I tell you the first time I was with Daisy and like she was a baby and she rolled off the bed And I just thought I was gonna die, I'm hysterical, I'm sobbing Every parent has that story Well, I didn't know that until I told Steve and he was like, I thought he was gonna be so mad I mean, he told me that it happened to him like two weeks ago and he just never told me Perfect, perfect, perfect
Well, this guy's a piece of shit, however.
Then the dad tells a story.He notices the padlock on the bedroom door had been busted open.And I'm like, you have a padlock?
On the parent's bedroom door.What?I guess because they kept money in there.Who knows?I mean, who knows the kind of shit that, like, Dennis was trying to hide?
I'm sorry to you normal people who have a padlock on your door, but that made me go, what?A what?
And so he says... We had gotten our income tax money. Some of it was in the bank, but there was cash in an envelope.And he kept it hidden in his dresser.She took that.She took all the change whatsoever she could get out of the baby's bank.
So the dad calls the police right away.They come over and take a report.And we meet right now in the dock, Myreen Koch.She's the prosecuting attorney.
Yeah.And they say, like, in the first couple of days after Andrea vanished, like, people were out there looking for her.But all of a sudden, we're getting sightings of her all over the place.This happens all the time, right?In grocery stores.
People are seeing her, like, with bleached hair and pregnant.
Yeah, they're saying there were reports that she was being trafficked and forced sex work and forced pornography.And there are no leads.
And, you know, Dennis, the father, really wants everyone to just shut up and stop looking for her because he tells Brenda, his wife, she's just gone.You need to stop looking. Like, stop caring, stop looking, you gotta move on.
Because Brenda's getting off of her work, her shift at 11.30 at night, and driving around the streets looking for their daughter.
And he's guilting her, like, you've got a baby at home, you need to come home and take care of your, quote, real kid, you know, and, like, stop looking for Andrea.
Now, we'll get back to all that in a minute.There's a major bombshell reveal that we get right now.
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Come on, literally. Cathy, the badass woman at the center of all this, was a runaway herself.
So she explains that she knows firsthand that the cops do not give a shit about missing teenagers.Yeah.Because she's like, no one looked for me.
My mother was very physical.I mean, she just smacked me around one too many times.And I just got sick of the physical abuse and ran off to New Orleans with the clothes on my back.I was 14. They got pregnant maybe a year or so after that.
She was pregnant with Andrea a year later, and no one ever looked for her.
And she's like, look, missing teenagers are seen as delinquents.They're seen as bad kids anyway, so whatever.No one gives a shit.
If you're saying this kid is a runaway, Andrea, and we believe you, then Kathy, the mom, knows no one's looking for her.
Right. And so now that is leading me to believe that something is happening at home with Andrea, because Kathy is here to say, here's my experience.Here's why I left.Here's why no one looked for me.
So now we have this girl, this teenager who's run away.Probably something bad happened.And now the dad is putting this narrative that she's on drugs, that she's a bad kid, that she's delinquent.So now it's falling into she's just gone.
She's just a bad kid.She ran away.Everyone stopped looking for her, says the dad.
Right. So now Kathy, because she knows the cops aren't doing anything, she turns to web sleuths.
Okay.Everyone meet Carl Koppelman.Hi, Carl.Carl's the guy who gets things done.
With his spreadsheets, girl.It's all about his spreadsheets.
So he's a web sleuth.He was recruited by Kathy.He's based in California.He was on those Doe sites, the Jane Doe, the John Doe sites.They weren't really up to par.He didn't like what he was seeing, so he made his own.
Look at them now.Go look at any of those sites now.They are completely unnavigable.You can't.So he took all of those sites and put all of these like unidentified people in 2009 into a spreadsheet.
He said there was over 19,000 names on it when he was done.
He's like, I'm an accountant, so I'm pretty good at a spreadsheet.Yeah.
So he's just like solving missing person.And we see the newspaper headlines.He's solving missing persons cases just based on his spreadsheets.
Which is amazing.And now Cathy's like, that's all great, but am I allowed to be a little weirded out by this too?Am I allowed to ask a couple questions about like, why are you doing this?Why is this your hobby, girl?
Why are you so good at this, Carl?What do you know, Carl?That lasts two seconds because Carl and Cathy have such an amazing friendship and working relationship.And Cathy describes Carl as the catalyst for kicking this whole case into gear.
Because remember how this started?There was that Jane Doe that they found that they wanted Kathy's DNA for to see if it was her daughter, Andrea slash Alexis.So this is the Racine Jane Doe case.We've talked about this case before.
And according to Carl's spreadsheet, like it kind of matches up.
Andrea Bowman was listed as missing from Hamilton, Michigan in 1989.The Jane Doe was found in Racine, Wisconsin in 1999. Andrea was 14 at around the time she disappeared, and Racine Jane Doe was in her mid-20s.The age was about right.
Geographically, the Racine Jane Doe lives close to Holland, Michigan, where Andrea went missing from.
Also, when they said Racine, Wisconsin, I was like, I only know that from A League of Their Own.I've been traded to Racine. The Racine Bells, are you kidding?
Oh my God, that's so funny.
So I was like, Racine, I know that from The League of Their Own.Oh, I love it so much.
That's it.But we also learn it took three years for them to test Cathy's DNA.They requested her DNA, it took them three years to test it, but guess what?The Racine Jane Doe is not her daughter.
Is not her daughter.And there are a mix of emotions, and also two women we need to identify now.Two girls at the time that we need to identify right now.And Cathy keeps searching.
She's relieved.I mean, like, it would have been closure, I guess, but she's, like, relieved to know that Andrea's, like, maybe still out there somewhere.
And now she knows the daughter that she gave up to have a better life is now missing, and something horrible happened to her 21 years ago, and Kathy's gonna be fucking goddamned if she doesn't get to the bottom of it.
I mean, that is exactly right.
She is gonna be goddamned, yeah.So, she hears from Detective Chris Haverding, and he actually gives a shit, and Kathy's like, He wasn't part of that whole drop-the-ball crowd.Like, she likes Detective Chris.
Well, Detective Chris went to school with Andrea, and he tells us when she went missing, nobody even talked about it.Isn't that crazy?I mean, it is really wild.He's like, there were no, like, rumors.
It was like, she was just gone, and everyone just accepted it.
So now they form a team to solve this case.It's been a cold case for 20 years.So we have Todd Workman, not just a clever name, I guess, Michigan State Police, Brian Fuller from Michigan and Detective Chris, who actually gives a shit.Yeah.
So they're going to go back to the Bowmans, the adoptive parents, and talk to them.And we have a lot of audio from these two.They are not here to speak to the documentary.
So the task force is talking to everyone, the Bowmans, Kathy, Carl, the web sleuth, like, all hands on deck.Ed, Kathy's husband Ed, like, we're all here.But then, Meta appears, as Kathy says.
Meta McLeod, yeah.Meta McLeod.She reached out to Kathy on May 11th, 2003, and she has got a story.
Yeah, so she found, because everyone's on social media, Kathy has that Facebook group, and that's how Meta heard about this.
And Meta tells, she's here to tell her story because she, something happened to her and she thinks this is connected to what happened to Andrea.
So Meta was abducted in 1989.She was six years old.She was walking to a friend's house.She's at the gas station.And this guy in a red pickup truck pulls up. Hey, I have a bunch of puppies in my barn.Your mom says you can come.
Do you want to come play with the puppies?
This is literally, we use this example as a joke with Daisy because she loves dogs so much.That's how much like this is a real thing.
Right.And like because everyone wants to see a barn full of puppies.Yes.
And it would not have worked on Steve Tipton.He's the only one that would survive this kidnapping.
Fine.You want to see a barn full of spreadsheets?He's like, let's go. And Carl's like, hey, I like spreadsheets.I love a spreadsheet, too.I have many of them.
You want to see a barn full of spreadsheets?
When I think of Steve, I'm like, what does he like?Spreadsheets.Something with a table that he can move and edit.That he can pivot?
Oh, damn.This guy pulls up.This is so terrifying.This guy pulls up.He's so close to Meta that she's just like, she hears puppies and her face kind of lights up.He pulls her into the truck.That's how close he is.
So off they go to see the puppies and Meta is again like this is why these assholes used to use this as an example because Meta is every six-year-old being like like sir this car rides taking a long time like are we close to the puppies yet?
Like why am I why I thought the puppies were happening like what's going on?
They drive into an intersection where there's a cop and he makes her like lie down so the cop can't see her
And he's, like, super nice to her, you know, like, just being fucking creepy, touching her hair.Yeah.And Meta says everything changed.He was really nice until suddenly he wasn't.
They pull off the side of the road and now he's, like, just a monster.
Parents, like, this might be— if you're listening with your kids or, like, you don't want to hear something awful— And also just anyone, because I needed a fucking break from this too.I mean, it's really bad, so turn it off if you want to, but—
And he took off all my clothes and he tied my sweater around my mouth to keep me quiet.
He ties her up, takes her clothes off, unzips her pants, and, like, sexually assaults her.
Now, Meta is screaming this entire time.She's six.She's six.And as he is beginning his assault on her, a dog starts to bark.Yeah.Because they were near a campground, so people must have gone on a walk to see what all of the screaming was about.Yes.
The dog started barking, this guy stopped, ran away, and left her there.And look, I know I'm a nightmare, I understand I'm a walking cliche, but she wanted to see the dogs and a dog saved her.And that really made me emotional.
She wanted to see the dogs and a dog came to her rescue.Yeah, yes.
I didn't even think of that.
So, like, the guy ran away and Meta untied herself.
Like, that to me, like, her being alone in the woods, like, naked and untied.Traumatized.And at six years old, like, there's just, like, they don't know.There's just so much they don't know, you know?
Like, I mean, I honestly can't think too hard about it, or I won't get through it.
So she untied herself.She's naked.So she ran to the side of the road.Like, thank God this was a nice person who found her. and helped her and called 911.Meta, at the time, she's six, worked with a composite artist, and this guy was never found.
And Meta says, since I'm six, I'm looking for this guy.
Since she was six years old, she's been looking for this man in 1989.
And when she comes across the Find Andrea Bowman Facebook page, she thinks they're connected because Andrea Bowman went missing the same year Meta was assaulted in the same exact area.
And she says the internet was a game-changer for her in her pursuit to find this kidnapper.
Right.So she has, like, the timeline, and she starts doing some digging, and she finds a picture of Andrea with her parents.
And then I saw a picture of Andrea's adopted father, Dennis Bowman.Oh, my God.He looks exactly like the guy that kidnapped me.
She's like, that's the guy.That's the guy who assaulted me and raped me.
Like, to be clear, this is Andrea's adopted father.Andrea Alexis's adopted father.
The guy who was like, stop looking for her.She's just a bad kid.
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Or Dark Hole, a supernatural thriller about a town suddenly thrown into chaos when a sinkhole suddenly opens beneath their feet and something evil climbs out of it.
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Just simply search the title of the show or movie and start watching.Enjoy.Happy spooky seas.
Korean horror is so scary.So scary.If you haven't seen it before, seriously, be warned.I think whole one is crazy.It's so good, but so scary. So, Meta gives us more details.And every time, like, this is so well made.
Also, this was made by the same team who made The Keepers, by the way.Oh, is that right?Which is why, one of the many reasons this is so excellent, like, The Keepers people did this.
So, as she's giving more details, like, she's talking about the guy, and then we learn, like, a fact about Dennis Bowman, right?
So, like, she says he smelled dirty, like, he'd been working, like, doing physical work all day, like, maybe a mechanic or, like, a paint smell.What did Dennis Bowman do?
A carpenter who worked on yachts in the harbor.
He wore this guy worked down the block from where Meadow was abducted and went to church on the same block.And this campground was right by his house.He was passing this where Meadow was abducted, like where he took her to abuse her.
He passed it every single day on his way to work.
And the truck she described.Remember, I was like, remember, it's a red pickup, red pickup truck.The family members confirmed that Dennis's piece of shit had a truck that fits that description to a T.
We see it.So when Metta gets in touch with the Facebook group and there are members of the Bowman family in the group, they are confirming that Dennis drove the exact truck that she got abducted in.
And she's like, that's the truck.And Dennis's family is like, no, that's his truck.It's the same truck.
And then she hears Dennis's voice and she says, oh my God, that's him.The voice you don't forget.
And it turns out, now that we're digging in, everyone hated Dennis.All of these women confirmed he's a certified creep.And Andrea, our missing person, was telling people, breaks your heart, that her parents didn't like her.
And someone says, like, something tells me this was a house of horrors.
And this is where Cathy says another thing that, like, we keep getting pulled back to those beginning shots a lot, like her by the fire, talking about anger.
And Cathy says, like, once she realizes that this Dennis Bowman piece of shit is a violent person and meta story, and all these people are like, no, Dennis sucked, Cathy says... This whole situation, this is like a house on fire.
I could either walk past that house and just not look at everybody screaming for help, or I could walk right into that fire, or I could just let it burn me.I saw the fire and I walked right in it.
And I won't be out of it until I get all the way through it.
and I won't be out of it until I get all the way through it.And, like, let me tell you, that is also just such, like, it's just such a powerful thing.Like, just, you have to go get through the pain to get through the other side of it.
You don't get over it, you just get through it.You go through it.
But it's also, like, listening to Kathy talk, like, seeing the conviction and the vigor in her face when she is saying these things, it's so inspiring.It is.
And it is, like, she's the kind of person that, like, these filmmakers meet and you're like, oh, this is the kind of person you make a movie about. She's so compelling, she's so compassionate, she's so smart.She's been through fucking hell.
She's just amazing.But this is where she says, I knew I had to go to Michigan, see the place where Alexis went missing from.And so we're on a road trip with Eddie driving the Winnebago.
The RV, we got the dogs, we got sandwiches, we're all packed up.
I'm like, I wanna go on this road trip with them.
Yeah, and they've done this before.They've done this a bunch of times over the last 10 years, going down to the town where Kathy's daughter went missing from.
And can I just say, Kathy says, if I hadn't met Eddie, I probably wouldn't have come looking for Alexis, because before him, I didn't understand unconditional love.
Yeah, and Kathy talks about, like, her support system with Ed and with Carl.Like, these men are so amazing to her, and really, like, letting her run the show.I don't think there's any other way to do it if you're gonna be around Kathy.
Like, I love it.But, like, there's a moment and she just says, -"I feel love."And it's like...
But you know what?It's amazing, but what made me so sad about it was that Kathy is talking about her mother.
She did not feel unconditionally loved from her mother, which is like why she made some of the choices that she made, why she ran away so young and whatever.
And it's like she gave her daughter away to be given that unconditional love, which her daughter then didn't get, and then suffered the exact same fate as Kathy.Because Kathy's going to say at some point, I ran away when I was 14.
Andrea was 14 when she quote, ran away.You know what I mean?It's like they're at the exact same crossroads in their lives.
And there's no way, Kathy would have had her struggles raising a kid when she was 16 years old, but the unconditional love was never gonna be a problem.Kathy loves hard.
Like, you can't be as angry and as powerful as she is if you can't also on the other side of it love as hard.
You know what, though?She loves hard, but she fucking hates hard.That's what I mean.
You can't have one without the other.If you know, you know.
They're talking to all of the, you know, Kathy is on this mission, right?So she's talking to people who are willing to talk to them, which isn't a lot of people, but Sue the cousin is here.Yeah.
And she says she is a witness to the dad and the mom verbally abusing Andrea and also like demeaning her in front of people.Oh, you want to hear what the kid did today?
Because, like, the family would come over to Sue's house, and Andrea would just be sitting there looking sad and despondent.Yeah.And we're gonna learn what she was actually going through at that time.
But, like, the parents would just openly make fun of her.They had no love for her.It's Sue who says to Kathy when they meet the first time, like, we see them hug, and she says, I can see your baby in your eyes.
Yeah.And Sue says there was no warmth, there was no love.And she says Andrea was withdrawn and well demeaned because they were being mean to her.
And again, like, we're going to hear a lot of these stories, but I urge you to just keep in mind as we talk about this, if they're doing this in front of people, what is happening when no one is home?
This comes up later, but I want to say it now.We're going to learn that Andrea was being horribly sexually abused by Dennis, her adopted father.Yes. And so when she's at, and she's telling people, and people aren't believing her.
And so when she's sitting at Aunt Sue's house, who is so loving and so like, probably what she's thinking is, I wanna tell you, but you're not gonna believe me.And how isolating that must feel.
Yeah, well, who believes her are her friends.So we meet Michelle Timmer and Kim Payne and Jennifer Jones.They are her friends and they were witnesses to the abuse.Because Andrea would tell her friends, don't come in the house.
There are stories where the friends would see Dennis chasing her.
Yeah, hitting her.I mean, like, Kim comes for dinner and the parents eat burgers.
Andre and I were only allowed what was called a leftover sandwich.It was ketchup, mustard, and relish on two pieces of bread.And she made a comment that that's all she was allowed to eat.
Yes, that's what Andrea said. So Dennis came across the table right in front of me and hit her so hard he almost knocked her out of the chair.
Dennis the dad walks up and like punches Andrea in the face in front of everybody.
Brenda the mother.In front of the friends.Yeah.And Kim says Brenda just turned her back.Andrea is sobbing, screaming.Hungry.Brenda the mother just turns her back and pretends like it didn't happen.
Yeah, don't you worry, Brenda, we'll get to you.Oh my God.We will get to you, Brenda.I know you're worried about what we're going to say about you, and it's going to be worse.Think about what we're going to say about you, Brenda.
It's going to be a hundred times worse, and I hope you have a miserable fucking life.
No Barnful of Spreadsheets for you, Brenda.
Oh, Barnful of something. I just want to talk, Brenda.I just want to talk.
Jillian would like to see you for five minutes in the booth.Thank you so much.
Just two seconds.And you know, that is such a bit that we do on the show.I'm not a violent person, but two minutes with Brenda.
Just, you know what?Give me Dennis first, then I'll get to Brenda.I want Brenda to watch because I know she's going to hate it.
I'm anti-death penalty, except for some people.
Do you know what I mean?So, but when Andrea, and then I'm thinking, it's like, oh, she wasn't running away.Andrea was hiding at her friends' houses.Yes, yes.Because her friends believed her.Her friends would let her hide in their closets.
They were sneaking her food.Yes. Friends were her support system.
Right, so like the running away that she had done before she disappeared, that's what this was.She was sleeping at her friend's house so that her father wouldn't sexually assault her and where she could actually get a decent meal.
And the friends were either also going through their own abuse at home or their adults weren't believing them because she was hiding in their closets and sneaking over their leftover dinner, which was like half the meatloaf or whatever it was.
This is where we learn, too, that Andrea went to Brenda to tell her about the sexual abuse, to which Brenda, in her own telling today, says, I said to her, that's a lie.
Yeah.Well, because what happens is Andrea starts telling her friends about the sexual abuse.Dennis would come into her room at night, make her do things she didn't want to do.
Now, one of her friends tells Andrea, like, you have to tell somebody about this.I'll go with you.That is such a good friend.This friend goes to the principal's office with Andrea.
and sat there, as Andrea had to tell this to the principal, which, like, get yourself a friend like that.
Right?But Michelle, one of the friends, explains, look, I had issues at home as well.If you told the school, here's what happened.The school would call the cops.
Allegan County would come to the school, and then they would call your parents to come to the school as well.They would ask you right there in the room with your parents, OK, so tell us what's going on.Well, what are you going to say?
You know, your parents are sitting right there in front of you.You just look at your parents and say, oh, you know, nothing.
The cops would question you about your parents in front of your parents, which is going to make things a million times worse, because one, you can't say anything.Two, now you know, oh, I can't trust a single adult.Yes.
And three, now it's worse for you at home because now you're talking.Exactly.So now you think that's not going to come back on the kids at home?Right.Teach them to keep their mouth shut?
And, you know, Michelle just says, like, they would also take them to the church ministers.And like that was the therapy.That was the counseling.
Yeah, so when Andrea tells Brenda I'm being sexually assaulted on a regular basis, they take Andrea to the minister.The minister says, Andrea, step right in, talks to her for 10 minutes, then brings her parents in.And suddenly, Andrea says she lied.
She lied.I mean, for her to be forced to say that she lied when she's clearly telling the truth.
And then you know what it becomes about?Do you know how hard this was for Dennis to be accused of something he didn't do?Now it's about how devastating it is for Dennis.Yes.So yes, she's hiding in closets and wanting to run away.
Her friends are lying for her.
And then what's wild is her friend Jennifer is like, you got to get out of there.You just got to get out.And she didn't want to leave because of the baby. She felt like she was the only one there who could actually protect Vanessa.
And then her friend Jennifer tells Kathy, she said, when I get older, I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna go find my real mom.Like, remember how Kathy at the beginning, all she wanted was to be reunited with her daughter someday?
Like, her daughter wanted the same thing.
Right.And so when Andrea goes missing and the parents are really pushing this runaway narrative, her friends who witnessed all of this were like, you know what? She did it.She finally did it.
Like, it wasn't that far-fetched of an idea for her friends to be like, look, I was sneaking her food.I was there when nobody believed her.She said she wanted to run away.Maybe she had a chance and she took it.
Like, it wasn't that crazy for her friends to hear.Like, she wanted to get out of there.So maybe something got so bad, she didn't say anything.She found an out and she took it.
God, I mean, it makes me crazy how believable the running away story is.You know what I mean?
And, like, what's weird, because people say, like, it's weird that Andrea didn't take any of her personal items with her, like, no makeup, no clothes, no anything.But remember, Kathy, the mom, ran away with just the clothes she was wearing.
And she's like, no, I'm here to tell you, sometimes when you have an opportunity, you're not worried about your favorite whatever, your favorite Madonna tape, or you're not packing.You just say, is this it?And you just bail.
She's like, that's what I did.
Yeah, and, you know, we learned that Sue, the family member that's here, says, like, she thought the running away story was very weird, especially based on the behavior of, like, Andrea when she would be at her house.
And she says she called the cops and said to them... I'm calling about Andrea Bowman's disappearance, and I think that you ought to closely look at Dennis Bowman.The circumstances around her leaving don't make sense. And I want answers.
He is my family, and I'm telling you, you need to look at him.
Barely, by marriage.Yeah.Not like, I'm just saying, Sue.We're just joking, Sue.Or, no, to all the people who are going to get mad at me for being like, how can you say that adoptive parents are not real parents and that you're a real parent?Whatever.
Okay, you're going to fight for Sue to be... We're all mad at the same thing.Let's all just say mad at the same thing over here, everybody.Sue doesn't want to be related to this guy.Exactly.You don't want that bloodstream.
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So Kathy decides Dennis has got to be the guy.She learns about FOIA.
Yeah.She files a FOIA request on Dennis Bowman.
She goes, I learned that you could file a Freedom of Information Act request, send them a bunch of money, and they send you a whole file.
Carl's like, isn't it awesome? Yeah, like, we're going to solve this shit, Kath.We got this.
But she gets the whole background on Dennis Bowman.It's not good.And she's like, and she like chuckles when she says it.She's like, when I opened the file and started reading it, I was like, you've got to be fucking kidding me.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.Yeah.So let's go through some of his arrests.Arrest number one, he was arrested for stalking a coworker.
And breaking and entering into their home.
Stealing her underwear, keeping it in a duffel bag at his house.He was using a mask to conceal his identity.Oh, oh, Oh, and the sawed-off shotgun, don't forget.He served one year in the county jail for this.
We gotta do what is going on.Yeah.Oh, it gets worse.
This is a marathon, not a sprint, okay?
You're right.How's that voice doing?It's a lot.
Hating you both. You know what?Fuck you, Dennis.Fuck you, Dennis.And Brenda.And Brenda.
Brenda, who let this all happen.I know.So, arrest number two is in 1980.Andrea is six years old.This is really, really bad.
So, this guy in 1980, again, Andrea is six.He attacked a teenager and tried to abduct her.So, she's on her bike, and he was telling her to, like, ride into the woods.He was like, yeah, turn off the road and go into the woods.
She's like, no, you fucking creep.
Then I saw the gun. And he yelled at me again, and he fired the gun past me.And he said, God damn it, get off your bike and start heading towards the woods.And he shot the gun towards my foot, and I saw the dirt fly.
He tried to kill a teenager because she didn't do God knows what he wanted her to do.He was trying to get her.
Yes, he was trying.I mean, he was 100 percent was absolutely going to rape and potentially murder this person.
According to Brenda, it's all a big misunderstanding.
And Brenda stays with him.
Yeah.So he is released in 1986.Andrea is 11 years old.Her father is home on parole.There is an 11 year old in the house and he tried to abduct, assault and murder a teenage girl.Yes.I don't understand how this happens.Brenda, it's your fault, too.
100 percent.So it's very clear that Dennis did something to Andrea.He has a record of violence towards women and girls.Andrea told her friends and her adopted mother she was being molested by him.Friends and family saw all kinds of abuse firsthand.
Yes.Like Kathy is putting this all together.Obviously, Dennis did something to Andrea like it's all
No, but she says, as soon as I learned all this, I knew that he killed her.Kathy is saying he needed her dead.He needed to kill Andrea because she was telling everybody what he was doing.He wasn't going to get away with it.
She says he needed her dead.And she says, and Kathy says, and I had to prove that he did it.And she goes, and if I got to get crazy and shake everybody up, then so be it.I'm going to rattle every cage I can find.
Okay, everyone gird your loins.We're going to the Missing in Michigan conference and shit gets fucking crazy. But this is, I just, I also just want to slow down.This Missing in Michigan conference is like a sad and beautiful and moving thing.
And we've heard about it before.
It's families of missing people are coming together and it's like, it's a support group.Yeah.But also like, like trying to get resources together.
It's like a really, it's a space where these people can feel seen and heard and just be with people who understand it more than anybody else. So it's 2013, okay, okay, okay, okay, are you ready?Cathy and Carl are at the conference.
They're running a little late.To the group session.Everyone is sitting down.
They're coming in a little behind everybody else.
They sit down, Carl nudges Cathy and goes, it's Brenda.Nudges like elbow on the ribs, right?Yeah.I am screaming at my desk watching this, okay?Cathy, two seconds flat, jumps up, starts confronting Brenda then and there in front of this support group.
I jumped up in the middle of the room, I said, you tell these people who your husband is.
And then all of a sudden, you know, everybody got startled and there was a little bit of commotion.
I'd had a cup of coffee in my hand all that morning and I had that cup of coffee, I would have thrown it right in her face.
She swung her hand across in front of her like as if she was slapping her across the face.I just went Jerry Springer, baby.You know?
Kathy goes, I went full Jerry Springer, baby. And I believe her.So now Brenda, we have audio of Brenda telling her side of the story.Brenda, according to, I went there hoping to see Kathy.Oh my God.I am appalled at Kathy's behavior.
She's so offended, blah, blah, blah.She's like, my husband goes to prison once and he's a monster.And I'm like, Brenda, Yeah, in this specific circumstance, absolutely yes.
Because Brenda says to the group, it's a good thing my husband's not here, to which Carl says, what are you talking about?We know about your husband.We know he went to prison for attempting to rape an 18-year-old girl at gunpoint.
Now, Carl jumps in the middle and is defending Kathy.Kathy takes this opportunity, a little bit of theater, to hold up behind Carl. Find Andrea Bowman's side.Carl is monologuing.She's behind him like she's in a boxing ring.
And Carl to the group is like, here's the story Brent is telling you.Here's the likely story.Everyone inches up, sits up ten feet taller.Carl, what likely story?Because remember, Carl's a fucking legend.Carl gets shit done.Kathy's a legend.
We're watching history being made.And it's chaos down here, Tom.
Brenda says to the room, well, I haven't forgotten what my husband did, but I forgave him, and I take my marriage vows seriously.
Kathy can't take it.That's the last straw.Kathy storms out of the room.Storms out.And Brenda says something, which is fucking vile.She goes, well, who's the better mother?Because I stayed.I know.Oh, Brenda.
Let me tell you, you don't want to... I mean, this dragon is wide awake, I'm saying, but like, Brenda, stop.Stop trying to wake this dragon.I would love to hear from someone else who was there.Not because I don't believe Kat and Carl.
Some cell phone video would go a long way right now.
I want to hear from someone who thought they were going to a quiet support group. and then witness this insane situation unfold.
I'm just saying, some cell phone video, drop it in the Facebook group.
Also, where's Vanessa, the other daughter?
Oh, we're going to see Vanessa in a little while.I have words for you, Vanessa.Me too.
But now, the whole thing about being an actual good mother, we get this whole montage of Kathy getting the word out because Brenda and Dennis aren't doing anything to actually get people to go look for Andrea.
Dennis told people 10 days after she went missing, you got to get over it.You got to stop looking for her.
Yeah.And, you know, and once again, Kathy is saying that also the friendship with Metta is a major source of inspiration in all of this.
I mean, they're soulmates in a way, you know, like they have this incredible bond and it's just like people are just saying like Kathy was like boots on the ground in Michigan.Like she was keeping the case alive and she changed the trajectory.
And now she starts just harassing the Bowmans.Carl and I.
We would get a car and we would drive to every place Bowman ever lived, trying to find something that I felt proved Dennis Bowman is responsible for my daughter's murder.
Looking for evidence that they had killed Andrea.
Because what's interesting is that after Andrea went missing, Dennis and Brenda moved.
Like immediately.So they lived in, but not far.They moved like a quarter of a mile down the road.They lived at one property, which is not there anymore.
The house was torn down and they moved to like a farm, like a half a mile away.But right after Andrea went missing.
And it feels like kind of a way to get rid of any and all evidence without having to like find a new post office or whatever.Do you know what I mean? Close.
Like, you don't have to change your daily routine.But the blockbuster is the same.
You know what I'm saying?You don't have to find a new piece of place.Like, the routine is the same.Yeah.But, like, it's just weird that the whole house is gone, right?Yeah.Like, because everyone's like, right, what if Andrea comes home?
Aren't you waiting for the day where there's a knock at the door and it's the kid you've been praying for every day?Like, why would you move?
Well, the other thing, though, is that... And destroy the house so that no one could go there if she remembers her address and knock on the door and say, oh, they're actually halfway down the block.Like to just erase it completely.
None of it makes any... It's all glaring signs pointing at what actually happened.So now we're outside.We're with Carl and Kathy.We are outside the current Bowman home, which is where they moved right after Andrea went missing.
Because Kathy has just discovered Google Earth and drones.
Has she ever.She is obsessed with this kind of like anomaly in the backyard.She's convinced that's where they've buried Andrea.
So Kathy is using Google Earth and a drone camera on a regular basis to like scope out this house.
And the backyard is changing.
And there's an area in the corner of the property all the way in the back that like something would be built there and then it would be taken down or the place would be dug up or covered again.And she's like, what is it?Why does it keep changing?
What is he hiding?Like something's going on.
Bowman's not the kind of man who's out there doing yard work, you know what I mean?
He's never lifted a finger in his life, not like I'm defending Brenda, but like, you think he's done a dish?No, no.
He's washed a shirt?Absolutely not.But Kathy is convinced he's hiding something back there.
Like, completely?Kathy believes with her entire heart, body, soul, her bones, that Andrea is buried in that backyard.Yes.Now, web sleuth Carl disagrees.
Given that there was a wooded area right across the street from the Bowman house where they had lived at the time, The most obvious conclusion, if he killed her, was that he took her body and disposed of it into that wooded area.
And Kathy keeps saying, no, she's buried in his backyard.
If he did kill her, he killed her while they lived at that other property.They didn't own this property yet.So, like, he's kind of like, that doesn't make any sense.How would the body have gotten there?
They're both standing firm.And I just love their dynamics so much because neither of them, like, respectfully will not budge on their beliefs.Yes.And they're like, it's a major thing in the case.And they disagree hard.One hundred percent.
They have totally different points of view.But Carl's like, oh, you got the Joan, Kathy.Cool.Like, they're still ultimately 100 percent supportive in what they're doing.But this is a pretty big thing to disagree on.
Yeah, and Kathy's like, I was so convinced I called the cops and said, get a search warrant for the backyard.The cops were like, it doesn't quite work like that.
But like, but Kathy's reasoning makes sense.Like she's saying, I know in my gut, like Dennis felt like he owned my daughter.
I mean, what we're not saying is that Kathy is stalking them.Like she's legitimately like doing things that in other circumstances we'd be like, this is not okay, but we're totally into it now.
Yeah, we'll get into that in a minute. Because they're just like, hi, like, hey, coppers, like, hey, Detective Chris, you give a shit, remember?Like, where's your search warrant?And they're like, okay.Not yet.
And they're like, Kathy, we agree, like, Dennis Bowman is our guy for sure, but like, we need to just, you know, whatever.
So Kathy, not to take anything lying down, she's like, so I went, Billboard?
Billboard will push it in their face, won't it?It was on the main road going from where Dennis lived I was taunting him.You know, I know, Dennis.You know, I know.Now everybody else is gonna know.
Yeah, no problem, Chris.I got this.You do it your way.I'll do it my way.We'll see who gets there first.I got a billboard up.
I'm gonna put up a billboard that's right outside of the Bowman house.He's gonna drive by it every single day.She's taunting him.Taunting him.So... Don't kidnap Daisy.Because if you think Kathy's not my first call... Please.Please.Please.
Like, the absolute... like civil unrest that would occur.And all the other reasons.So now she's like, okay, the cops didn't say I couldn't harass them.So we have the billboard.
I can never tell if you mean those things as a compliment or if we're all just really too scared to think about it.
I'm terrified on a regular basis.
The downright civil unrest.
So Kathy, she's got her billboard, she's taunting Dennis.
She's got her drone, she's got her Google Earth.
She's all over it.Again, she's doing it her way, the coppers are doing it theirs.Because Facebook has been a really great resource for Kathy, Kathy is harassing the Bowmans, there's no other way to say it.
But she's posting about Dennis endlessly on Facebook and she is reading some of the stuff that she wrote like 10 years ago and she's reading it and she goes, your bad karma is breathing down your neck, Dennis Bowman, and it's never gonna forget your name.
And she reads it to us and even Kathy's like, damn, did I write that?That's good.
wrote every one of these posts.
Let me tell you, she did.Kathy is Cassandra.Kathy is who's afraid a little of me.Kathy is like everybody.So she's like, you're a murderer.You kill my daughter.You're a rapist.You buried my daughter in your backyard.And here we go.
Speaking of Taylor Swift and me, there's a meme that she posted that I told you about that a listener was like, you need to watch Into the Fire if only for this meme.Karma is the most patient gangster ever.
And I'm like, wait a second, Cathy.But this is the kind of stuff, and Cathy's saying, I know you killed my daughter.She's buried in your backyard.What's going on?What are you doing back there?I have Google Earth.
Like, she's laying all her cards out on the table.
I'm gonna, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to ask you to do something.What?
At one point, I called them up, and of course, the machine answers, and I, like, just ripped into them until the machine goes, beep, and I called them right back.And I ripped into them, and the machine went, beep, and I called them right back.Beep.
Do you know they disconnected their phone that next week?
So she'd leave a message calling them like multiple times a day.She'd be like, you motherfucker, karma's coming for you.Karma's the most... Karma's the most patient gangster and I know what you fucking did to my daughter's parents.
And what the fuck are you doing back there, Dennis?And Brenda, you're another one, and I am not through with you.I mean, that all day long.
They had to disconnect their phone.Change their phone number or whatever.
I know.But what's happening... You just fucked with the wrong lady's kid.You know what I'm saying?And so, like, normally, like, it's harassment.And Cousin Sue is like, well, I don't know if it's harassment.Sue, we gotta do this.
That's the thing that we always ask other people to do.We have to be honest about it.We have to say, like, you know, J.D.Peterson, yeah, it looks bad, everything he had in the car.Yes.Start a sentence with that.Uh-huh.
What Cathy's doing is harassment.Do I support it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.I agree.All across the board, right?
But keep calling Kathy, because Kathy gets shit done.
Because what happens, though, these idiots, Kathy is calling, leaving them messages, harassing them on Facebook.Brenda calls the cops on Kathy.She wants to file harassment charges.Now Kathy, now Brenda knows her husband is a bad guy.
He went to prison for it.Like, she knows he tried to kill that girl.Like, Brenda knows on a lot of levels what a piece of shit her husband is. But Brenda decides to open up this can of worms, calls the cops on Kathy.
So this is Terry Hobbs suing Natalie Mays level shit where it's like, Terry, why don't you come on in now that we have you.Oh, yes, yes, yes.But so that that doesn't stop Kathy.Kathy's like, I'm going to keep the calls coming.
Call the cops on me as much as you want.I don't give a shit.
Even the cops are like, Kathy, starting to cross some boundaries, but they love it.The cops are totally in.
Because they know she's right.
So, like, in this instance, it went great.There are many times where this really could have harmed the case.It didn't here, and I love that for all of us.
Yes.Because suddenly... I was set up at a little desk in here in the living room, and it was early in the morning, and I had been trying to build the Facebook page a little bit more, and I was really thinking nothing was ever gonna happen.
And the phone rang, and I picked it up, and it's Meta.And the first thing Meta said was, they got him.They got him.
What?So one day, I'm like, how did this happen?One day, the cops swarm the Bowman house, 31 years after Andre Bowman missing.Everyone is up in arms.
It's like, people can't get through to each other on the phone because everyone's calling each other at the same time.Dennis Bowman is arrested for the rape and murder of Kathleen Doyle.And I'm like, who?Who the hell is Kathleen Doyle?
We have to get justice for her. What is going on?And that's how the first episode ends?Oh my god!I can't believe it.
It's so good.I know, I know, I know. So fam, the way we're doing this right now, episode two is available right now and ad free at the $5 level on Patreon.
If you want to go and listen to it right now, it's going to be our regular episode with ads on the regular feed next week.Yep.That's it.
We got a lot more coming.
We got a lot more coming.There's so much more in the Patreon if you want to check it all out.Join the Facebook group if you want to get in and have the conversation.
Yeah. Everyone has been talking about this documentary for quite some time, so let's join in and talk about all of it.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.All right, fam, we love you.There's no coming up on, because it's just this, one more episode of this.
Yeah, Into the Fire of the Lost Daughter, episode two, coming your way next week.
