Welcome to Unfuck Your Brain.I'm your host, Cara Lowenthal, master certified coach and founder of the School of New Feminist Thought.
I'm here to help you turn down your anxiety, turn up your confidence, and create a life on your own terms, one that you're truly excited to live.Let's go. Hello, my friends.
We are having a conversation today about a lot of things, but especially about a word that I would say comes up a lot in coaching and people are using it without necessarily have really thinking through what it means.
And that word is authentic and authenticity, which I feel like has become a very popular buzzword and we could all use to have a better kind of understanding of what that means and what we're talking about when we talk about it.
So I'm super excited to be here with Deesha Dyer, who has an amazing resume, has worked in the White House, has a book, which has possibly the best book title I've ever read, called Undiplomatic, How My Attitude Created the Best Kind of Trouble.
And if you know me, you know that I am all about women and other marginalized people making some trouble.So I'm excited to talk about this. So welcome to the podcast.Can you tell us a little bit about kind of your journey?
How did you end up working in the White House?What led you to write this book?Like, give us your life story.
Yeah, so first of all, thank you so much for having me here.It's such an honor and I'm so excited to talk with you.
It's you know, for me, writing this book was definitely not something that was on top of my my radar, but neither was working at the White House.And so, you know, I had dropped out of college when I was 17, went back to college when I was 29.
Only college that would take me was community college.And that was around the same time Barack Obama was running for office.And I was a big community advocate, but I wasn't plugged into politics.I wasn't plugged into like the elite part of politics.
I was kind of just like, that's like government and that's not what I do.I do activism.And then this man, you know, started to appear everywhere.And I was like, I really like, who's this person?Like, and God bless his heart.
He's definitely not going to win.We've never seen a black president.Like, you're right. And so lo and behold, he won.
And right after the election, I got an application for a White House internship and someone asked me to pass it along to the youth in my community who are in college.And I was like, I think I'm not going to do that.
I'm going to I'm going to apply for it myself.I'm also in college.I'm also in college.So I know that there's like a 20, you know, 10 year difference, but I'm still going to do it.So
I filled out the application, got the White House internship in the fall of 2009, Barack Obama's first year, then got hired back at the White House in 2010, and then just stayed there to the very end through several promotions to get the top job of social secretary, which is like running all the parties and events and state dinners and all that stuff.
But the whole time I was there, I like... was like, what am I doing here?I don't belong here.Like, this is not my jam.This is not my thing.But I kept excelling.And so Undiplomatic takes people through that journey.
And it also takes people through, like, it wasn't that I got a job at the White House and I was like, I'm so confident.
It was definitely like, I got to figure this out because my physical health is being impacted by, like, me feeling like I don't belong.And so that is really what the book is about.
There's so many, I feel like we could have a whole podcast episode just about this, the like last two minutes of everything you said.So first of all, I mean, I love the story of you having dropped out of college and then coming back 10 years later.
Like so many people I think think, well, you know, something went wrong or I made a mistake or like my life went off track somehow.And now like, that's it.
Like, the number of people that I coach, literally from ages 18 to 80, who are telling me, like, it's too late, I already screwed it up, I already know.Like, people have that thought at every stage.
So I'd be curious before we even kind of get to the meat of the book, like, what was your thought process?Was it hard for you to go back to school?Was it, like, did you have to change that kind of thinking?Like, what was that like for you?
Definitely.I mean, for me, I had always wanted to be a social worker.And I thought that just because I was a nice person who cared about people, that I could go help people.Like, why do I need a college degree?
And so I think, you know, eventually when someone's like, you actually have to go to school, I was like, what?That is why I started going back, really, because I was like, I know what I want to be now.It's completely unrealistic to be like,
16 and like applying for college and being like, oh, I want to be this or I'm going to stick to this.Like, I think it's unrealistic expectation that we ask of our kids.
And so, of course, being a psychologist at 17 saying I wanted to listen to people's problems was not correct.And so when I eventually became, you know, went back to school, it was simply because I finally figured out what I wanted to do.
but no school would accept me.And so I had to go to community college in Philadelphia in order to get into a four-year college.
And it was amazing because I'd never looked at community college before because I was like, it's a 13th grade, it's junior college.It's like for people who aren't smart, but it was the best decision ever for me.
So it was, it was amazing and it was wonderful.So yeah.
My husband also had a like kind of misspent youth in some ways, not saying that's what you had.He, that's just what happened to him and had dropped out of a couple of colleges and then
went back to community college first and then became a lawyer, like, but community college was also, you know, really big for him to, like, get him back on that.
It was the best.It was like time, like slowed down.It was like my pace.It was it was just really great for me.Yeah.Four year college wasn't like I didn't have the discipline for that.Yeah.Or the money.So, yeah.Yeah.Which makes sense.
Okay, so let's talk a little bit about your book and let's talk about authenticity.So you say in the book, authenticity is more than a buzzword, which yes, I want it to be.Yes.Can you tell us what does authenticity mean to you?
You know, I feel like authenticity means like living in the truth in the present time that you are in.
So I think that we often look at it as like something that we get like when we're four or five or whenever we have like start having consciousness and we have to stay that way, like true to myself.I'm going to say true to myself.
And oftentimes people look at that as like true to themselves, like I'm not going to change for anybody.But it's like you're growing older, you're maturing, you're having different experiences.
your authentic self is going to change with different situations.Right.And how I act with my family, I'm not going to act the same way with like my girlfriends on vacation.You know what I mean?Like, it's not inauthentic.
It's just that it's a different circumstance.So I think that sometimes we say that and we're just like, oh, like it's making people, I think, feel stuck in a space because they are like looking for this is how I have to be at all times.
But it's like, no, you should change.And it's OK to like change as you are.So authenticity is how you are in the present moment and being true to yourself due to the environment around you.
Yeah, I love that because right, there's this idea like I'm a fixed static self through time and through different situations.And that's like the real me as if it's like a rock you can discover in the forest.That's like a real concrete thing.
Yeah, exactly.But like, really, the question isn't like, am I being exactly the same every moment?Because nothing in life is consistent.No animal is consistent that way.But like, are you what are the motivations behind how you're acting?
Are you acting differently?Because you're like, Hiding who you really are you're uncomfortable with yourself for you don't your people pleasing are you not comfortable showing up or like that such a more interesting question like.
Why am I being the way I am in this scenario?Not like, am I being my authentic self?
I completely agree with that.
And I love that outlook on it because I also feel like it's one of these things where you start to feel, I feel like maybe with maturity, like you start to feel in your gut when like, this is not like, and maybe it's not you.
It's just the environment.Perhaps that's just not the place that you could be yourself.So then you have to make a choice.Like, do I want to keep pleasing these same people in this environment?Or like, do I just want to get out of it?
The question even on belonging, I don't even ask.I'm just like, if I don't belong somewhere, maybe it's because it's not for me.Not that the environment's bad, but like, it's not my vibe, you know, and that's cool.
So you worked at a place that I imagine had a lot of structure.There's like ways of doing things in a White House and anybody could look at either of the Obamas and tell they run it like a tight ship probably.
So I'm curious, what was your experience with kind of being somebody who's like, I want to do things my way and then being in a place that had a lot of rules and structure?What was that like?
Yeah, I would say it was 50-50 like hell and heaven because, you know, the hell part was is that like I didn't come from the political world.
So all the decorum stuff that like you need to know where you should have or even like who the donors are, who the player. I had no idea who these people were.I was like, I don't know who you are.
So sometimes I'd have to ask a lot of questions or I'd say like, well, let's do it this way because I don't really know the traditional way of doing it, which then was the heaven part because I got to do things in a non-traditional way.
I got to be undiplomatic.I got to be like, well, why don't we try like having a live band outside the White House?And people are like, what? And I'm like, I don't know.I think that sounds like a great idea to me.You know, like, what's the problem?
What's the problem?They're like, well, usually we have like, you know, a string organ.And I'm like, that sounds lovely.But like, let's give local musicians a chance.Right. to maybe like, you know, just play their guitar.Who can you know?
And the heaven part was the Obamas gave me the authority to be like that.They were just like, we trust you.And I was like, OK, are you sure?
You know, so that was the great part, because I had these two untraditional people that were just like, we've never been here either, Disha.Like, let's just do things different.And so it was hard, I think,
you know, many times because I was going against the grain.And then also you have to realize that if you do your own thing and you're so in tune with yourself, you know, like people, you know, don't like you.
And so I had to be like, well, I'm not going to be included in this fancy event or this whatever happy hour, because like, here comes Disha.So I'm like, it is what it is, you know?So I'd say it was it was a 50-50.
I'd like to talk more about that because I think, you know, I'm often teaching similar what you're saying, like, it's more important to be yourself to show up as you are, like, you know, to resist these kinds of oppressive structures.
And then, of course, like a very natural response is like, yeah, but there's consequences for that sometimes, right?Like, you can negotiate at work.And then we have the study showing that women and people of color when they negotiate may actually
decrease their compensation, right?Or like have, have the sort of, you get this boomerang effect of the sexism or racism or whatever else from the other side.
So, you know, and like a man's assertive and a woman's a bitch, like all of this kind of thing.
So I'd love to hear kind of like what are some actual tips you have for listeners to try to bring their whole selves in even when like that's not the status quo, that's not what people usually do.
And how do we think about the like risk reward of there potentially being consequences when we do that?
Yeah, I think that's a great question.When I think about the risk, I'm very upfront and honest with people because people look at me and they're just like, you're so yourself.And like, I love that you're a truth teller.
And I'm always extremely honest and say, I want you to know there are consequences to that.Like the consequences are, is that like, And just be, you know, we love being in group activities and being in community.
Sometimes I'm excluded from those things, you know, like people talk about me and sometimes it's like, here she comes.
And I have to be okay with being talked about because at the end of the day, I know that I'm going to bed being like, I did the best that I could for myself and my community.And you have to know that it's a long game.
Like, you're going to feel better about it a year later, opposed to the time right then and there.And so I think that for me, that's what I have to tell myself.
And I give people the advice of, you have to be okay with finding that group that's for you that may not be like your coworkers.It may be a different department.It may be outside friends.
And so I think that being yourself will always pay off in the long run, but you have to be willing to understand that it will be a little lonely sometimes.
And as long as you're okay with that, or you have other things to fill that in, then you should always bring yourself.But I'm also understanding that I also speak from a place of privilege.I work for myself. Not everybody has that.
So I don't ever want to give that advice to people and them say, like, I need my job.You know, I can't afford to do that.
So, of course, like in the safety of financial, physical, mental, do what you need to do, but make sure that you have therapeutic things outside of that to remind you of who you are.So you don't adopt this philosophy of I've got to fake it.
You know, I've got to, you know, be somebody else.
I think also like the thing I've been thinking about a lot is that there is a little leap of faith required in believing that if where you are isn't the right fit for you, that there are other options.Like I think about this a lot with
well, on a lot of different fronts, but like, I think one of the most insidious things about socialization is it not only tells us like who we're supposed to be and who we're not supposed to be, but it also makes us think that everybody shares this belief.
So everywhere is the same, right?So like if one job, if one boss doesn't think working moms do a good job, there's no point in trying to go anywhere else.Everybody's going to think that, right?Like that it's so pervasive.
I mean, and I, I think that it's true along like so many different identity elements and,
So much of the work is being like, okay, so like when I was dating in New York as a fat person and seeing every single fucking profile is like, you know, no fatties, height and weight proportionate, like, you know, so like I, like, that's real.
And I just need to believe, okay, it can't be possible that everybody thinks this, there's going to be like, some people have been having sex since the beginning of time, there's going to be some people and the same is true in your job, whatever it is, right?
So I think that it's like, We're never about not on this podcast like never about denying that there is a risk benefit scenario of like.Showing up as yourself and your identity and not doing all the code switching that's usually required or not.
you know, get it going along to get along or not conforming.
But make sure when you're thinking about that risk reward scenario, you're not like taking kind of the oppressor's story about what's available to you and what the options are to you and just believing like, okay, nobody will accept me if I show up as my true self.
Like no job will want me like this.No man will want me in this body.No, you know, Because otherwise it just, it's such a reinforcing cycle.You're like in a bad place or a bad spot.And then you're like, well, I have to stay here.
Right.And I think that's where imposter syndrome often gets it wrong.I always tell people there's a delusion because we do adopt in that situation, the oppressor's thoughts about us.And not only do we adopt them, but then we make it like our fault.
You know what I mean?It's just like, Oh, it's my fault I can't, you know, date in New York because, you know, I'm Black and all the people up here, like, they want light-skinned women, you know?Like, you just start to be like, oh, but I wish I was.
Well, only if I was, you know, instead of being like, this is just the way I am and I can't. change that.And honestly, I don't want to.Like, I never wanted to wish I was somebody else.
Of all the things, like, I wish I had been born to a rich family, like all these, but I never wish I in this body, in this skin was someone else.
And I think that that's where imposter syndrome changed a lot for me because I was like, this is my fault.And if I would have had more education, if I would have had this, and then I'm like, wait a minute, like I made it to the White House.
Like, you know, what am I, what am I saying?Where am I supposed to go from there?Right.What else could I be even doing? Yeah, and so that's what I'm addicted to now.It's like, what else can I do?How exciting is all of this?
But I do believe that oppressive language is what kind of makes us turn in ourselves and beat ourselves up and talk mean and all those things.And I'm just like, I'm not doing that crap no more.I'm just not doing it no more.
So how do you think those of us who are managers now or have, you know, who have like gone up the kind of quote unquote ladder a little bit or have more connections or have a little more power, how can kind of leaders of organizations champion their employees to be their authentic selves?
Like what can you do to, if you are a leader of people or a manager or whatever else, to make your work environment more welcoming of people being their full selves?
Yeah, and I'm going to say like something that I say and people always not laugh, but they're always just like, what?
But I always feel like we as managers or leaders, we're always looking at things that we can do to make other people comfortable without fixing ourselves.
And so I'm always like, I look at myself constantly and say like, Disha, what community are, do you have your unconscious bias that you are putting into the world?
Just because you are a DEI leader and you've done all these things does not mean that you are not being harmful to a community or to people.
So I think that the first thing as a leader is get yourself checked, like figure out like, you know, what biases do I hold?How does that impact the people that I lead?
and start there because it's just, again, it's like we think we're untouchable because we're leaders of things.
And I'm like, no, like I've definitely had thoughts or actions against communities that I'm not proud of, but I need to work on that before I try to lead somebody else.I think that's number one.
I think number two, having equal accountability throughout organizations.I think that oftentimes we talk about DEI and we talk about different things and it's just like, well, you know, well, you know, we're going to have trainings for that.
But if, you know, with sexual harassment and with other things, there is no training.You're fired.You know, I mean, I don't and I'm not saying that everybody should get fired for stuff.Right.
What I'm saying is, is like we need equal accountability for when you do put the we make up a workplace harmful and being a leader that stands up and say, we need to have that.
But I think it's also like pouring into your employees like all of the time, not just when there is a performance review, when there's a big project, it's like, how can I help them continuously grow?
So I think it's a lot of leaders is that we keep people in place so they stay at our workplaces.Like, you know, like I love them.Like we just had somebody in my job, like, you know, move on.And I'm like, oh, my God, my assistant's leaving.
But she got a really kick ass job.Like, good for you that you felt that empowered to move on.And so I think that us pouring into and making an environment that people really wanna be in versus one that people are just there for a paycheck.
Yeah, I love that.I think also I have been working a lot in my own leadership on being okay with conflict.Yes.Like allowing there to be conflict.
So in our executive team meeting, now we always say before we start, we have permission for friction to advance our mission. Like our little thing we say.
Because I think that especially people socialized as women and everybody's personality comes into it.I wouldn't say about myself I'm non-confrontational.
I'm very direct and honest, but I've made a point of really only surrounding myself in my personal life with people who don't fight, very calm discussions all the time, don't have any conflict.That is my personal life preference.
And of course I'm not saying I don't want people in my organization who scream at each other. But it's just different.Like it's a different situation.My, you know, it's not a personal relationship.It's a professional workplace.
I'm selecting for people on different bases and like allowing there to be conflict without freaking out about that or making it mean something's gone wrong or, you know, has been very like, I feel like I have seen my leadership team, which is all women, two thirds of which are women of color, like kind of
blossom a little bit more into their full selves is like, allowing for that conflict and that not meaning that like, it's bad, someone's in trouble, you know.
So I think that's like, especially for people socialized as women, like how comfortable are you with allowing for like natural friction to occur?And like, yes.
I think that also having scenarios or phrases or everything else of how you approach that conflict.Because some people just don't know and we just haven't been taught.So if I'm having an issue with a coworker or whoever, how do I go to them without
like getting a personal feeling where they feel attacked or where I feel like I'm arguing.
Right, so many people don't have conflict resolution skills in their personal life either, so they're not going to have them at work.
Yeah, 100%.That's something that I'm also personally working through, just being from Philadelphia.I'm a constant, like, what are you talking about?Yeah, I'm from New Yorker parents, so I'm just like, no, bad idea.Moving on.Moving on.
That's why the podcast conversation has been so concise and to the point, because we're both like, let's go.Yes, exactly.
Everybody should obviously order your book, which is again called Undiplomatic, How My Attitude Created the Best Kind of Trouble.Where can people find you if they want to follow you, learn more about you?
Yes, they can find me just, I have a website, Disha Dyer, first and last name, D-E-E-S-H-A-D-Y-E-R.com. But then I'm on Instagram actively, probably the most.It's dyer267.On my website, it says all the places you can buy the book.
Of course, we love supporting independent of color bookstores and marginalized people bookstores.There's also the Amazon and Barnes and Noble and all that on there.But it's just exciting to have this story out there.
And, you know, and it's just great that people have been receiving it so well.So, yeah.
Awesome.And we'll put that all in the show notes.And I always like to say, if you really can't afford to buy a book, go request it at your library.All of that helps with like demand. and showing institutions that people want to read this book.
Thanks for coming on.No, thank you.Thank you so much.
If you're loving what you're learning on the podcast, you have got to come check out the Feminist Self-Help Society.
It's our newly revamped community and classroom where you get individual help to better apply these concepts to your life, along with a library of next level, blow your mind coaching tools and concepts that I just can't fit in a podcast episode.
It's also where you can hang out, get coached, and nerd out about all things thought work and feminist mindset with other podcast listeners just like you and me.It's my favorite place on earth and it will change your life, I guarantee it.
Come join us at www.unfuckyourbrain.com forward slash society.I can't wait to see you there.
If you're a therapist and you find yourself getting kind of stuck in certain loops with clients who have been socialized as women around people-pleasing, perfectionism, self-worth, concern about others' perception of them, those kinds of topics, I want to offer you a free tool that will help you.
It's called Closing the Brain Gap in Women's Therapy, Three Ways to Deepen Rapport, Get Better Results, and Blow Your Clients' Minds.
It's an absolutely free guide that I wrote because I hear from therapists so often that the socialization lens that I am teaching was not included in their education or their training.
and that it is so helpful, and they're trying to apply it based on my podcast or even taking my programs, but I wanted to create something that was really designed for therapists.So that is what this guide is.
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You just go to feministtherapy.com.Couldn't be easier.Feministtherapy.com to download that totally free guide.Or you can text your email to plus 1-347-997-1784.And the code word is therapy.
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