Have you ever thought about what it would be like to be able to leave your 9-5 and live off the income from rental properties?Not sure where to start or what steps to take?I've got you covered.
I'm Kirby Atwell, former US Army officer turned full-time rental property investor
And I wish I could say the transition from full-time job in the military to living off rentals was an easy one, but there were lots of twists, turns, and roadblocks along the way.
In this podcast, I talk to all sorts of rental property experts who will help you avoid some of the same mistakes I made when I was getting started and ultimately equip you with the tools you need to live off rentals.
Dustin, it's always great to have you here on the Living Off Rentals podcast.Welcome back, buddy.
What's up, Kirby?Thank you so much for having me on the show.And every time you and I hang out, it's so much fun because you inspire me.I just like see everything that you're doing.I'm like, man, this is so cool.I got to start moving.
I got to do more things in order to keep up with Kirby.But I really appreciate you have me on.It's always great.
No, I feel honored to have you on.And I feel like my head spins when I think about all that you're doing and accomplishing and taking on.So you've built quite a real estate empire.
And for people who can't see this, if they're listening to the podcast, Dustin's sitting on this scenic beach right now with rolling waves in the background.So you might want to check out the YouTube clips of this interview as well so you can see it.
But it's like this picture perfect paradise right now.So pretty awesome.But
You've built this, you know, incredible real estate empire with your personal portfolio of rentals, multiple books that you've authored, now multiple podcast shows, the incredibly valuable Rubicon or Real Estate Wealth Builders Conference that you put on every year.
And then all the people you've impacted over the years as well and helped them transform their lives.So it's just, it's awesome to have you here.
And if you haven't heard Dustin's podcast, he personally hosts the Master Passive Income Podcast and Successfully Unemployed. which are both amazing.
And then there's several others now that fall under the master passive income banner that several of our friends host, which are also awesome podcasts.So it's amazing how you're continuing to grow this umbrella.
And I think, you know, your thought process And strategies kind of align with mine in a lot of ways.And it's been awesome watching you evolve over the years.
So I want to talk through maybe some of the deals that you have in your community have done recently and then get your take on where this crazy real estate market is heading based on your experience.
So, you know, first off, although, you know, I think a lot of people know who you are, if you don't mind just kind of giving a brief overview of what got you into real estate investing in the first place.
Oh, absolutely.Yeah.And I appreciate it.And it's so much fun when you realize that when you get other awesome people around you, life gets easier in all the things that you do.And I found this out when I first started investing back in 2006.
I didn't want to be a hands-on landlord or a property manager of my own properties.I wanted to have as passive of income as possible.That's why I created Master Passive Income.When I bought one rental property,
it made me money without working other people, experts were doing the work, which was terrific.And I thought, man, I've mastered passive income, I bought one house, and the house is the one doing the work for me.
And so now I'm like, Well, how can I help other people master it?But yeah, so I started messing back in 2006.What got me really into the fully investing
And I told us a lot a better story, like a full version of the story back on one of Kirby's past episodes when I was on about I'll cut to the right to the chase, I literally got laid off, I was working a regular job, just like everybody doing technology, nine to five job, started investing, but stopped, because life just gets in the way, you know, started having kids and all that sort of stuff.
And then eventually, I got laid off.And then I realized that I needed to make sure that I was controlling my own future.I need to make sure that I was independent rather than dependent on somebody giving me a job.
So fast forward, started buying property after property, eventually had 30 plus properties.I was like, man, I don't need to work anymore.I'm going to go ahead and quit, which was great.Then fast forward,
started coaching people how to do it because they were asking me how to invest in real estate.And I realized two things.I enjoyed coaching and I had plenty of extra free time.
And so fast forward, I wrote some books and started a podcast, YouTube channel and all that sort of stuff.
And now with the conferences that we put on, Master Passive Income Podcast Network, and it's all a means to get back to the very first thing that I said. was getting other great people around you to help you in everything that you're doing.
Just like you, Kirby, coming and being a part of RoopKon.You're a fantastic part of RoopKon that people, like I get so many people say, I went to Kirby's talk and it was so, like even my students, I'm going to go work with Kirby.
go to work with Kirby this is great because that's I think as we as everybody helps each other out all like like a rising tide just raises all the boats and so for me the more people that I help the better my life gets and the better their life gets and one quick last thing I'll say is recently
I bought a 355 unit apartment complex and a short term rental property in the same month, like in June of 2024, bought them both.And just so happened that it worked out.I didn't want to, it wasn't the plan.Let me just do it at the same time.
It just deals and this will get to your second part of your question, which we can jump into after a second.But the market, where are we at right now? For me, it only matters on the deal.It doesn't matter the market.
And if you're a good investor, it doesn't matter what interest rate it is.It doesn't matter if it's a down cycle.It doesn't matter.It only matters about the deal and just sometimes of the economy or whatever.
there are better deals or easier to find deals, I should say now it's a little harder.But yeah, we could talk about that.But yes, I got a short term property.Love that it's crushing it.
I follow your plan of getting outside these big areas, which the people in like Nashville and Orlando, they're going there.They're actually selling.In fact, I just quickly did an Instagram real
where a flipper got into short-term properties, and he finally sold all of them.After doing it for two or three years, he sold them all because the market's oversaturated in these big areas, and he's losing money.He's like, I'm done.
I'm done with short-term properties, but guys like me and you, where we do it right, then we're gonna make more money.
But yeah, that's how I got started, and that's, in the end, everything that I'm doing from the conferences to the podcasts is, how do I get more awesome people around me and get all of us around each other so we can all help each other out?
Yeah, absolutely.And it's funny you bring that up.And you mentioned Orlando, because Dustin and I both went down to pod fest earlier this, this year, and we stayed in this $1.8 million house that was just built beautiful, cool, like
themed out rooms, like just one of the nicest places I've stayed in.And I ran the numbers, I did a tick tock while we're there, ran the numbers.And I was like, there's no way these people are cash flow.
And like it just based on the nightly rate that we're paying and looking at the projections, like it just it, it didn't really make sense.
I mean, maybe from appreciation long term play, but it's just hard to hold properties without cash flow coming in.So well,
my opinion, like just like you, you don't hold properties without cash flow.It's like I'm going to start a business and lose money every single time I make a transaction.That's just stupid.Nobody does that.And but people have been doing it.
And we see a lot of people are going to start.They are getting hurt, but even more so.In fact, I know in Arizona, There are 50,000 short-term listings on both VRBO and Airbnb in Arizona.That's just Arizona, 50,000.
Those used to be long-term rentals or owner occupied homes.And so that's 50,000 properties.That's when, you know, last couple of years you have realtors always saying, oh, it's inventory.
There's so low inventory, so low inventory, which that's a good point.But what it really comes down to is those houses are off the market now in short term.
And I like me and you Kirby and all your listeners, I know all your listeners are following what you do.And they're smart too.
It's going to be the best time ever to invest in real estate to buy these properties because I'll be completely honest, I see people having a huge hard time, ones that way overpaid for their short term properties in these big areas.
You know, they're thinking, you know, I'm gonna make so much money like $10,000 a month because these Instagram and TikTok gurus are telling me they bought two properties and they're making a million dollars a month.So I could do that.
and they way don't do it right, as opposed to your audience who know how to do it right because they listen to you.But I think it's gonna be a fantastic time for us to invest in real estate in the coming, hopefully make six months to a year.
It's gonna be terrific, but there's always great deals out there.
Yeah.Yeah.And, and I think you're right.Some of the sexiest properties that are the best, um, the ones that show the best on Instagram, aren't the ones that are actually making money and in a lot of cases.
So I want to talk to you about the property or the deals that you just mentioned, but I, first I want to, you know, if you can kind of break down, what is your portfolio look like today and how did you build it over time?
Because I'm sure it's evolved over time.
It sure has.In fact, my bread and butter is residential four units and below long term.I just love those.In fact, when I started getting that investing in 2006, there wasn't short term property managers.
Now there were a little bit of short terms here and there, but people would have to do it themselves.It wasn't really until like 2020 into 2021 that property managers really started exploding maybe a little before that, like 2019.
But before that, there weren't any property managers and I am a passive income type of guy.I didn't want to buy a house that I would have to manage to make money.I just want a long term.
So now short terms are great because there are so many amazing property managers that the system's known now. Now people know how to do it and property managers are out there.
So started single family home, buying property after property, lived in California at the time in 2006, but bought in Ohio because prices in California were just crazy.
You couldn't rent to make passive income, bought in Ohio and since then now invest in Ohio, Texas, Arizona, Indiana. and Tennessee.I think there's one more state, but let's just stick with those.
But yeah, 30 plus rental properties right now, single family homes.I only have one short term property because I was always like, I just love long term because in long term, it's so little headaches and I make money.But then I thought, you know what,
let's look at doing a short term probably because Kirby's doing a fantastic job.He's got 30 over 30 realistic, which is just mind blowing to me.I was like, Kirby's making a crap load more money than me.I better start working on my short term.
But so 30 plus long term, then I have one, one short term property, which is doing amazing, by the way.And I was like, so we're in Murfreesboro. right out of Nashville, about 30 minutes away from Nashville.But it's doing really, really well.
And then, so 30 plus properties plus the short term, one property, then I've invested in some hotels.So I have some hotels, which I've always loved Monopoly growing up.
And so this was a chance to play Monopoly in real life getting all the way to hotels.So I checked and got that.And then, oh, remember, the very first thing that I said was,
getting around the awesome people and helping all of us helping each other out.
So because of my conference, the Real Estate Wealth Builders Conference, which you've spoken at all the time, I mean, I don't think it would be the same if you weren't there every year.Thank you.I also met some friends there.
They've spoken every year. And they was about a year ago, they said, Hey, Dustin, we think that you would be great at being a partner on these multifamily big apartment complexes.
I was like, Yeah, that'd be great, as long as there's a good deal, because I'm not a syndicator.And so for everybody listening, a syndicator, what they basically are is their salesman, that's, they're not going to like that I said that.
But this is the absolute truth, because I'm not a syndicator.
They are salesmen, somebody else, an investor like me or Kirby, gets a deal, and these people, they're good people, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're bad at all, but I just want you to understand the perspective of what the syndicators do.
They then go out, take that deal that Kirby or I have, and they go find other people to invest in that deal, and they, the syndicator, get a portion of it. It's not a bad business model at all.It's not.
But at the same time, that's what they are a salesman.And I decided because I'm an investor, if I'm going to invest in something, I better believe in it wholeheartedly believe in it, and I'm going to be buying into it.
So fast forward, friends of mine who are only in the multifamily space.They love multifamily huge apartment complex.I think they have like 2000 units to get all together.
They approached me and said, Hey, Dustin, we want you to be a part of the asset management, which means ongoing, just making sure the properties, you know, management is doing great.
We're fixing it up the property, getting better insurance, all that sort of stuff.And we want you to help raise capital. which is the number one thing that any big deal needs is access to capital to buy the property.
And so I was really blessed to be a part of it.355 units in the same city, literally a five minute drive, one, one and a half miles away from the Airbnb I bought.So it's, I'm fully bought into this property, this area, beautiful area.Yeah.
Middle Tennessee state is there, but anyways, 355 units, I raised 1.5 million from just my podcast and sending out a couple emails, which was really I was excited.I was like, man, that's great.But it was because I was around awesome people.
These awesome people that are my general partners with me, they are known as buyers of real estate buyers of apartment complexes.
So there was a distressed seller in in Tennessee, they were distressed, they had another property that they needed to offload or this property needs to upload because they had another project they needed money for.
Well, we bought it for 60 cents on the dollar, basically 60% of the market value, because they needed to close quick.And they went to the realtor and said, Who do you know that closes properties really quick that can raise this much money?
Well, they went to my partners, the friends of mine that spoke at Rubicon, they brought to them, then they brought me on fast forward.
It's all about being around the right people and having the right people look at you as somebody they want to either potentially work with or help out.
And that's the reason why for me, I just love how do we get as many people together because we all win when we all work together.
But yes, so that's my big, big picture of my portfolio 330 plus properties, one short term hotels and now 355 unit apartment complex.
Wow, wow.Yeah, one thing you're like really good at is getting people together.And I think a lot of people get ideas like, oh, it'd be great to have a conference, you know, where all my friends come together and speak.
And, you know, there's all this learning opportunity.But then they're like, the next breath or the next thought is like, well, that's a lot of work.And what if it doesn't work and all that?
You tend to not have that second thought, it feels like to me.You're just like, yeah. There's probably going to be problems, but we'll just figure it out as we go.
And, you know, you put it together and I mean, it's worked out amazingly, but a deal like that, that you just described is a result of bringing people together or being in that room with other really smart people who have access to deals like that.
What about that deal?Um, I mean, obviously the numbers made sense, but you said you bought into Murphysboro.Why do you think that's a good market?
Great question.So number one, the friends of mine that I'm investing with, met them through Rubicon, the Real Estate Wealth Bills Conference.
They're a part of me with as I'm doing the Rubicon multifamily is which is all about commercial real estate investing.So they live there.They live in that they actually
moved from New York to Tennessee because they were building a big portfolio there and they started buying there and they really loved it.So they moved out of New York and then they said, Dustin, you need to move out here, this place is fantastic.
I'm like, okay, we'll see.So anyways, I went and visited, which was a lot of fun, but then I saw how terrific it is out there, just down to earth people, which I love.
I moved from California to Arizona, lived in Arizona for about seven years, now moving to Tennessee eventually.
But all that to say, the reason why Murfreesboro is because it's outside of a huge area, which is Nashville, a huge city, which is Nashville.
I mean, oh my goodness, if you wanna buy a short-term property there, like an Airbnb, a condo, I mean, you're gonna be spending 600 grand, maybe more for that, and it's not gonna be making you that much money.
But 25 minutes out of Nashville is Murfreesboro.We get booked up all month long, basically, because We are in a great area of very few like the inventory or amount of short term properties are much lower.So for my short term properties doing great.
And the apartment complex too.It's because my friends who already own I think 1500 in that area, they also have other apartments in other cities, but they have 1500 units in Murfreesboro.So economies of scale is really, really huge.
They have one property manager that's only charging like three maybe 3.5% per unit to manage all the properties.So that's the big reason why Murfreesboro is they've been in there for last, I don't know, seven or eight years.
And then with me seeing it's outside of Nashville, people still like you, you always say, Hey, people still have weddings, people still have deaths and funerals, and they have graduations and vacations, like people travel everywhere.
So if you're able to find a good property, then it's going to do well, as opposed to Orlando, we're going to paint up way overpriced, and still, if you buy in these better areas, you're still gonna make good, good money.
Now, one quick last thing I'll say.The reason also why I picked Murfreesboro for my short-term property is eventually my wife and I want to move out to Tennessee from Arizona.So, I thought, I want to move to Tennessee, but I'm a West Coast guy.
I've never lived on the East Coast.I might not like it.You know, it's my Southern, Southern East area. I might not like it.So I'm going to leave my house.We're going to do midterm rental in my house in Arizona, move to Tennessee and see if I like it.
But I knew I was not going to buy a home that's going to be a permanent house.I said, I might not like it.So I bought in an area that I know would be a good investment property.
So the house we bought is an Airbnb in end of November after our conference in November. My family and I, we're going to move all the way to Tennessee and live in Tennessee for at least a year.See if we like it.
We might find another, a better area that we're going to buy another house and build or something.I get, you get a lot of land.I love having land or I want to have land, but then leave this property. the new one in Tennessee as a short-term property.
So I bought it as an investment to move there to see if I like it, and if I don't, I'll move back to Arizona and go back to the house I lived in, or we will like it and then we'll buy another house and then keep this.
But the idea was, test it out, see if I like Tennessee, then move into it, but I already know it's a producing asset, this short-term property, because it's already making me money. That's so smart.
Yeah, so many people think with their emotions first, and then they don't think about the actual numbers.And so, you know, you can still check the boxes and all the things that you want and need personally in a home, but then just
you know, kind of qualify that into a property that, that works, you know, from, from an investment standpoint as well.
So that way you're never in a position where all of a sudden, you know, I'm, I'm in this house, I can't afford or anything like that.You know, it's always going to be a great investment longterm.So that's super smart.
If you could kind of share a little bit more about this 355 unit deal, what is the, the metrics that you were looking at there to see, like, or, or to decide, yeah, this is a deal that I want to do.Like, what'd you guys buy it for?
What are you projecting on it?And that sort of thing.
Yeah, so there are a few criteria for me to become a, I guess a partner in any large apartment complex, and a number of different key criteria.I'm gonna give you the big principles in there.
There's a lot of underwriting things, which is like the numbers.I'm not a numbers person at all.I see spreadsheets that I run.I'm like, okay, just give me the bottom line.
But there are principles that I use when I buy any property, even a 355 unit apartment complex.So just like you, Kirby, I try to make sure that I make money when I buy the property.Well, what does that mean?Capturing equity.So this one property,
They, like I said, the sellers had a project that they needed money for.So they need to sell this one.They bought it.They've had it for like 15 years.So they doubled their money and we got it for 60% of what the market value was.
Now they could go to market and make more money, but they didn't have the time.So I love buying distressed properties, not like dilapidated.Those are fine too.Don't get me wrong.But when I say distressed, the seller is motivated to sell.
at what a price that they normally wouldn't.So this property was 60% of the market value.So the total purchase price was 32 million.We raised $12 million for it, the three partners and myself.And so that's one is we capture equity when we bought it.
So we captured 40% equity, right?I mean, if we had to fire sale it, we'd like, okay, let's just get out from under, we're gonna make money.So that's number one. Number two, cash flow.So we don't get on a property unless we make money.
But then we also don't buy the property.Unless we're making cash flow, we're making money right when we start buying it.Now, if it's rented already, like this apartment complex is, then that's fantastic.
So I look at am I going to be making money and on this 355 year apartment complex, We so the property and so here's a little bit nuance to when it comes to commercial properties and more to learn.
That's why we have the Rubicon multifamily because it's not as simple as a single family home.That's so simple.It's really, really simple.There's other things like, as you know, if you're having short term properties, occupancy.
Is it occupied more than it's not?So I look at the occupancy of this property.Well, is is there also a value add?So when I look at occupancy, I'm looking at is it rented like all the units?Is it like 90 percent or above?
If it's below 90 percent, then there's a value add, which means we fix it up, we make it better and we make it worth more.This property itself, there is two things.
Number one, they were about 96 to 97 percent occupied, which they were really, really good.That's that's a really good.Yeah, that's really good occupancy.We will try to get up to 98 percent, like just a little bit more, which would be great.
But you never really want to be 100 percent because then you're not charging market rents like people are just staying in there.You're not making money.You should.So occupancy, you want to make sure that's up.But then also value add.
I like, and same thing with a short term property or single family home, forced depreciation.That's what value add basically means, is you put money into it.
Let's say you put a single family home, let's say you put in $20,000 to fix it up, but then it's worth $50,000 more total.So you made 30 grand by fixing it up. Same exact thing.
So remember, these are principles that for any property, you just have to have a little nuance for each type of property that you can be buying.So that's what I also look for.Can we put money into it to make the property worth more?
But can we also get the rents up?Can we increase the rents?So far, if you track with everything I've shared, This one property, check, check, check.All these different things that are in my brain of what I need, we're checking off.
And then here's another excellent thing on top of that was two other last quick things, the loan or the debt that we're going to take on the property. And the other one expenses.So I'll get to the debt in just a second.
But quickly say the expenses, I knew that we could lower the expenses on the property, because my partners already had a great property management, we're going to go from like they were paying 4%, we're going to go down like I think three, three and a half percent, which is great.
We also have a lot of other ways to decrease the expenses.So that's going to increase our income.And then the last one is debt.Now, when you have a single family home, that's totally different type of debt or loans than a commercial property.
Commercial properties, they are only three to five, maybe seven year loans.And then you have to refinance or sell it because it's a business loan.
Now, a 30 year fixed single family home is by far the absolute, my favorite, the best because your mortgage doesn't go up and after 30 years it's paid off.Commercial loans are not.
So here's one thing that I will say and finish on the debt or the loan part.A lot of people that are syndicators, remember the syndicators, the salesman I told you about,
They're actually having a lot of problems right now, because the way the syndication works is it's a model where they buy it at a certain price, and then they hope another syndicator is gonna come on top and buy it for more three years later, so they make money.
Then another syndicator come on top and buy it for more three years later, and then another, and eventually, somebody's left holding the bag.So there's a guy named Brandon Turner.He was formerly of Burger Pockets on a podcast, or doing a podcast.
Well, he has literally stopped. all distributions on his syndications.You know, people invest their money.Let's say somebody puts $100,000.They're hoping to get seven or 8% return on a year.Well, he's literally stopped that.And he's not the only one.
Lots of syndicators have stopped distributions, which means they're not paying out investments.And a lot of them are doing capital calls, which means they're going back to their investors and say, hey, investor,
If you wanna stay at your same equity, you gotta put more money in.Here's the reason why.They're losing money.
Just like if you started a business selling candy bars, and all of a sudden your expenses are too high and you're not making money, well, you gotta put money into the business to make sure it keeps running.Same thing with syndications.And so,
I'm seeing like Brandon Turner stopping distributions, lots of companies doing capital calls.I wanted to make sure, because remember, I'm not a syndicator.This is an investment for me.I want to check off every single one of these boxes.
So anytime I get into a deal for myself, or if I'm partnering with somebody else, I make sure these boxes are checked off because the last thing I want is money coming out of my pocket.We don't get investments for that.So when I boil everything down,
This was literally like if I would say that there was like in baseball, base hits great.
Just like if you get a single family home, you do an Airbnb and you're making $500 a month, that's a good single, you know, for $500 a month, a good single, then a double, you know, gets better and better.
So for the multifamily, 355 units, this is literally a grand slam. That's why I was like, I'm so on board because it checked off every single, I mean, $32 million that we're buying it for.We captured 40% equity.That's a lot of money.
Also, one quick last thing on the debt.We got a seven year loan.Normally it's three to five years. We have a seven-year Fannie Mae loan, which is really, really good.We underwrote it, which means we ran all the numbers at 6.18% interest rate.
On $32 million, that's a lot of money.We actually closed and we got a better interest rate, 5.81. At $32 million, that's a lot of money saved.So like I said, exactly.It's a grand slam.
Wow.That is incredible.Yeah.It kind of makes my head spin a little bit as you talk through all the details and things to think through on a deal like this.But it's funny because you did this deal.
and a single-family short-term rental in essentially the same time span, but the size of them are massively different.But it's not like you're doing 355 times the work on this larger deal, which is kind of the magic of multi-family.
And you've run RubeCon for the last three years.It's been awesome.It's this growing conference.Every year it gets bigger and bigger. you know, more speakers, more attendees, and just I've learned so much from it.
This year, you're doing an additional Rubicon focused purely on multifamily, in addition to the, you know, overall Rubicon conference.So I guess what sparked that?Was it this deal?Or what was it that sparked that?When is it?
And can you share a little bit of the details about that?
Yeah.So the reason why is because I know with Rubicon being, we teach every single asset class, every asset class out there, we want to touch on everything.And at the same time, touching on everything, it's really high level.
Now you will get in great conversations on tactically how to do everything.
With it being high level, though, we want to make sure that or at least I said, I want to make sure that we have more conferences that are going to be much more tactical strategy, like less about high level, but more about getting into the really big detail.
So people come out of an event like, man, I just did a two day masterclass on this stuff.And so that's where the Rubicon multifamily, the commercial real estate investing came from.And then on top of that,
I realized that my attendees, they needed that.So they were asking for something like this.But then I also had really, really great speakers that are expert investors that they have more to give.I thought, you know what, what better?
Well, I just love putting on events.You're 100% right.Like I always thought every time I put on an event, I'm like, crap, I am sorry, I said crap, it's a little crass on your show.
But it's like, I'm literally signing a contract with a hotel for like $250,000.Some can get high or do get higher $300,000 with a hotel promising that I will pay that much money if everything fails.
And so every time I'm like, kind of citing it, but I'm really blessed as we got started, event after event, It's just gotten better and better.And great people like you, Kirby, come and help and, you know, be a part of it.
And we all bring our audiences together to create a community.So the reasoning for multifamily Rubicon or Rubicon multifamily is an addition.
And eventually, I'd love to start a I'm not sure what it will be, but it's something around single family for everything from mid short term to long term.
Obviously, Kirby, you're going to be 100% there, but probably have you be the headlight speaker because everybody loves you as the short term guy.
But so eventually it's going to get that route because I want people to literally come away as being an even better real estate investor.
My number one thing goal in life now or actually it's my mission is to help 1 million people to invest in real estate and Rubicon Multifamily which is going to be in November 7th through the 9th. in downtown Denver.
It's going to be a tremendous hotel.I actually love it.But November 7th through the 9th.And it's going to be two days, actually two and a half days of just awesome, in your face, like giving you everything that you need for all types of commercial.
It could be storage facilities.It could be mobile home parks, commercial buildings, you know, offices, as well as apartment complexes, but everything commercial because it's a whole different ballgame.
And the reason why I love it, it wasn't because of the multifamily property that I bought. It was because that's what we all do as investors is we also grow.
Now, one quick last thing, I'll say, I personally don't want to be the person finding a 355 unit apartment complex, underwriting the deal, like doing all that work. I don't want to do that, but there are so many other great people.
Another reason why for a conference like this is to connecting partners together, just like my general partners that I'm with, because multifamily is such a bigger commercial, such a bigger endeavor, you need a lot more hands.
And this is a great way to connect people so that they can do more deals as well.
Yeah, that's amazing.And that location is perfect.It's ironic because last year, that exact same time I was in Denver, we went out there for the Army Air Force football game.And it is a perfect time to be in Denver.It's so like, picture perfect.
It's clear, sunny and you know, a perfect temperature.So great location for it as well.That's, that's awesome.I think there's going to be so many people that get so much value out of that.
And for, for someone who's kind of just getting started and they're trying to decide between single family homes or multifamily, like what do you feel like are the biggest differences people should think about when deciding between the two?
Cause you know, I think a lot of people, don't understand like some of the big puts and take differences between the different types of investing.
So I'll help understand terms, or I'll explain a little bit of the terms.So when I say multifamily, I'm thinking five units and above, because multifamily, it really comes down to the commercial loans that you get.
That's really the boils everything down, because those loans are totally different.
And even just to get a commercial loan, you have to have experience, you have to have somebody that's a sponsor, which means somebody that's done it before, has plenty of money, all that sort of stuff.So it's a lot of work.So when I think of
multifamily, it's five units and above.Now, when I think of residential, that's four units and below.So like I said, because of financing terms for it.So if somebody were to get started now, okay, let me let me give you an example.
Like let's say somebody comes up, hey, Dustin, I really want us to get started investing real estate.Should I do five units and above multifamily?Or should I use four units and below?My easiest answer is absolutely start with four units and below.
My goodness, it's so much easier, simpler, and you can get hurt much less.
It's hard to get hurt if you do it right, like you just follow Kirby, like literally follow Kirby, everything he tells you, you know, get his membership, start working with him, he's going to show you exactly how not to get hurt, especially a lot of these short term
TikTok and Instagram gurus that literally, oh, I bought this property.I have three properties.I make it a million dollars a month.You know, they're flashy.And they say, come join my course.
Well, they're not doing so well now because they did not follow rules like you, Kirby, who's done this before, like investing outside of big areas.That's another, that's a huge one.
There's plenty of things that obviously they need to join your membership to get.But when I'm looking at residential affluence and blow, The biggest thing is you get the conventional financing 30 year fixed, literally 30 year fixed.
And if somebody's gonna get started, number one, like they've never done any real estate, buy an FHA loan.
And it's you can anybody can get an FHA loan doesn't have to be like, it's not like a first time homebuyers, but use and Oh, here's another thing.You've been in the military, use your VA loan.Oh my goodness.0% down.Absolutely.
It's all about the financing. for me.And then that financing helps me to make sure that I'm making money every single month.
One quick last thing I'll share is that you'll see a lot of syndicators or people on Instagram and all that stuff that do multifamily.They'll say, oh, I have like 2000 units.I kid you not.I've asked them before.
Are you financially independent with those 2000 units?No, I still got to work a job. No, I don't want 2,000 units and I still gotta work.I want 10 units, 20 units that I don't have to work and I have other people do all the work for me.
Yeah, that's such a great point, yeah.It can be a little deceiving, you know, when you start to look at the portfolios and how much equity they actually own in these investments.
But one thing, I've invested in several apartments over the years, apartment deals, just passively.And that's another great way to just kinda learn it, you know, in the beginning, just put a small amount
of money into the deal, which gives you a small ownership percentage.And then you can see how it works out.
And you monitor the progress and you get quarterly updates and distributions and kind of can sit on the sidelines a little bit, you know, it's, it's passive, where you're not actively managing it, but you can see how the these deals work.
And then maybe from there, you you jump into one of your own.So are you planning to continue to expand your multifamily portfolio?
Absolutely.But really comes down to is the deal.In fact, our good friends, or at least my good friend, I don't know how well you know, but Annie Dickerson from good egg.They do.They spoke at Rubicon.Yeah, terrific, terrific ladies really love them.
They're great.But they've done lots of multifamily.They just I was just on their podcast yesterday.And she Annie said, Hey, we have a deal coming up.Are you would you be interested in being another general partner in another deal?
said, let me look at it.So I haven't looked at it yet.But anyways, all that to say, for me with multifamily, it's just like me with my single family homes.Every single deal is different.And every single deal is either a good deal or a bad deal.
Some are singles, some are doubles, some are grand slams.And so only way that I will get into a multifamily deal is if it's at least a double or better.Now I can't really
I could quickly quantify what that means, but capturing equity, making money in passive income, can we increase the revenue?Can we decrease the expense?Do we have good debt?That sort of stuff.
It has to at least be a double because a single in multifamily, you can start losing money pretty quick if things start not going very well. We want to make sure it's a double, if not a triple, even a home run or a grants.Grand slam is just amazing.
This like this one deal we had was just amazing, but a double, if not a triple, I'd have to get one of those.But yes, absolutely.I love multifamily.In fact, the wealthiest people keep multifamily.Oh, one thing.Last thing I'll say about multifamily.
The reason why I don't love multifamily like I love residential is I have five kids now. We're very, very blessed to have five amazing kids.
I'm going to give these properties to my kids, these multifamily, unless I refinance it, restructure it and pull all the money out and then own it free and clear.You always have to refinance it.
You always have investors, so they always have to sell it.You always have to go to the next deal.When you have your residential 40 and some below after 30 years, it's paid off and then you can give them to your kids.
I'm looking at generational wealth.How can I bless my children and my children's children on top of that.And residential is by far the only way to do that.
Awesome.Awesome.Well, I really appreciate kind of the breakdown and some of the similarities and differences between the different strategies for people who are interested in attending the multifamily conference.How did they get signed up?
How did they get more information?
Absolutely.So anybody that's listening to this, if you are, if you know Kirby, so Kirby's been a fantastic part of Rubicon.
Anytime if you use a promo code Kirby for the Rubicon, the real estate wealth boost conference, which is in the spring, or the multifamily event that's in the fall or any event in the future, because Kirby's, like I said, is a good friend of mine.
I'll literally give you 10% off.So go to Rubicon.com, R-E-W-B-C-O-N, all abbreviated R-E-W-B-C-O-N.com forward slash sorry, not even for just you go to rubicon.com and then use the promo code Kirby, you'll see all the events listed out there.
We're even starting up and Kirby, I don't think you know this, but we're starting up a Rube club, which is like a local RIA, you know, real estate investor local.Yeah. monthly meetings, we're starting that up.
And Charlotte is our first one, and we're hoping to be rolling those out in major cities as we find, again, great people that can put these on in great cities.But yeah, go to rubicon.com, use the promo code Kirby.
I'll literally give you 10% off any time, and more than likely, it'll just perpetually.Kirby's always gonna be a part of Rubicon.But yeah, so go there.
Plus, if you guys also wanna reach out to me, like Kirby said, I have my own podcast, the Master Passive Income Podcast.Literally me, just trying to teach how to do this.But on Instagram, funny enough, I like I Oh, man, I hate to tick tock.
It's like, I'll go from like 2000 views to zero.So I'm like, man, I'd much rather stick with Instagram.So you want to find me on Instagram, the Dustin Heiner THC, Dustin Heiner, reach out to me on DM love chatting with people on there.
But it's just so much fun to be able to help lots and lots of people to invest in real estate.Oh, one quick last thing.You mind if I give everybody away a free course because I want to help people to invest.Yeah, absolutely.
So if you text the word rental, R-E-N-T-A-L, rental to 33777, rental to 33777, I'll give you my course showing how I invest in real estate, how I get my long-term properties, how I create the business first, make sure I'm making money every single month and be able to scale my business, square my job.
I love helping everybody as much as I can.You can even go to masterpassiveincome.com forward slash free course.All one word, forward slash free course.
I'll give it to you, hopefully you start investing, and then obviously working with Kirby, you're gonna be doing terrific with these short-term properties just like him.You have more short-term properties than I have long-term.
I'm just thinking, crap.You don't need to tell everybody how much you make, but I'm like, I know Kirby's doing really well.I'm glad, I'm glad, he works hard.He works hard just like I do.
I appreciate it.Yeah, I think you have more physical properties, but it's, you know, I've got a few listings because a lot of them are multi unit.So it turns into, you know, multiple streams of income, which is which is very nice.
So but yeah, that's fantastic.You do an awesome job on TikTok.By the way, I love watching your your TikTok videos.
But if you're listening to this, and yeah, you want to sign up for the multi-unit conference, or you want to sign up for the one in the spring, the overall Rubicon conference, which is huge.
I think there was probably 400 or 500 people there last year.500, yeah.Was it?Wow.Yeah.500, yeah. That's awesome.And it was at this amazing conference center in St.Louis.
But you could go to either of those, get the 10% off, and you can sign up for it.
And also hang out with Kirby.I know you guys listen to the podcast. Kirby is an awesome guy.You probably listen to him on the podcast.Man, I would like to hang out with Kirby.Come hang out with him at Rubicon.Yeah.
And a lot of speakers at events, what they do is they literally fly in for their talk and then they fly right back out because they're not part of the community.Kirby is absolutely a part of the community.He's there to help people just like I am.
In fact, all the speakers, just like Kirby and myself, We as best as we can, we just try to be genuine, genuine and helpful to people.And that's what this conference is all about, is helping you as the investor to get better and better.
But I mean, again, you're going to be able to hang out with Kirby.I mean, it costs a lot of money to hang out with Kirby or to be like one on one and just be talking with him.Come to the event.
He's going to be there sipping coffee with you and hanging out.
That's right.Yeah, it feels like a big party the whole time.You know, you're learning during the days and then there's events at night and stuff.And I'm excited about it.I can't wait till that happens.But thank you for coming on today.
It's always a pleasure to have you back on.I love getting your insight on things.And yeah, I really appreciate it.Thanks, buddy. Hey, thanks again for joining us.
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you leave a positive review on iTunes and also head over to Facebook and join the Living Off Rentals Facebook group where the conversation will continue.Thanks again.See you next time.
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