Welcome to Michael's Green World, your window to competitive sustainability.Join your host, Michael Herzog, as we explore innovative solutions and gain new insights into sustainable living.
Featuring experts, practitioners and pioneers from the field, every episode offers a fresh perspective on the strategies that are shaping a more sustainable future. Welcome to a new episode of Michael's Green World.
Today, we are talking about a future-oriented topic that will soon shape our energy supply.Digitized power supply and energy storage.
Our guest is Dr. Andreas Piepenbrink, CEO of E3DC and a pioneer in the development of innovative solutions for self-sufficient energy supply.At E3DC, he has matured market-ready technologies with his team.
They show how our energy future can be economically sustainable.You can find more about this on his YouTube channel Autark, the E3TC magazine.You can find the link in the show notes.
In this episode, Dr. Piepenbrink explains what else is needed besides technology and good ideas to make the energy transition even more successful and why a smartly regulated market economy is so important.Stay tuned, it's getting exciting now.
Andreas, hello.Please tell us something about you and your experiences in the energy industry.How did your path to E3DC lead you?That's a long time ago, but still relevant.Yes, Michael.
First of all, thank you very much for the invitation.I'm very happy to do that.You are also an E3DC customer, if I may say so.The E3DC story is, I founded a company called Karmann E-Mobil.
who wanted to produce electric commercial vehicles in the style of Rivian, which is now also supplied by Amazon.
The capital was there, the prototype was ready, and the plan was that Volkswagen should deliver vehicle parts and a new business branch should be created under the roof of VW.
The plan did not work, VW did not want that, and therefore, with the EWE, as an energy provider from Oldenburg, one of the largest in Germany,
We actually founded the E3DC together and decided on the variant of self-production, which, if you can review the last 15 years, has actually performed better on a large scale than the EFI itself in Germany.
Yes, that's true.That's a huge hit and you're right, I'm a customer, I'm a satisfied customer, I've just expanded the storage and consequently I'm very interested in what we can do together.
But tell me, what actually motivates you to work on this development of autonomous energy systems?What drives you?
Well, the motivation actually comes from the customers themselves and the fact that I can read every day how much CO2 the customers physically save.And that fascinates me because
Over the years of my work in the automotive and semi-automotive sector, I have always had institutional customers, where I had little to say as a supplier myself.And I am now happy that I can read every day what the fleet of customers produces.
And I am fascinated by efficiency, savings and renewability.What has always fascinated me was the direct current technology.I did that together with Thomas Alva Edison.
And our idea was always to make a DC intermediate circuit, over which the entire energy distribution runs and the grid only exists as a bridge to the central energy economy.And that's why the company name also carries the DC in the second half.
Now I understand what E3DC means. As you know, I live in Switzerland, and in Switzerland, the legal situation is a little bit different here and there.I provide for my tenants in the house next door with cheap solar power.
And what can we learn from these decentral and community approaches?And how do you see the role of small and also larger projects in the overall energy transition?For example, I have just filled up my storage with 20 kilowatt hours.
Switzerland is exemplary because it is less regulated than Germany.The energy sharing and the energy community is easier in Switzerland.Your question about the project size.The project size in the energy transition does not play such a big role.
The small ones and the big ones are part of it.And meanwhile it is also about that the consumption is adapted to the production and it is about seasonal storage.
The interplay of all decentralized energy providers across the market and across the flexibility and the so-called energy management is important.
But the key to success is also, Michael, how people are involved in the energy transition without generating.For example, in Germany, this means rental electricity or apartment solutions.
And these people also have to profit and they can profit from the flexible loads such as the electric car or the heat pump.But they can also actually profit from the storage, which on a broad front continues its success story in all size classes.
And up to the utility scale, which is now possible, over hundreds of megawatt hours, which are installable at the cost of storage per 2 euro cents,
That personally satisfies me very much, because for me it was always the open question, the dark flute.And at the end of the day, how is the so-called peak gap filled?Through gas power plants, through time management or through storage?
And if so, through which storage?And I have to say, the electric battery storage is coming in regions of economy.You wouldn't have thought that possible.And the vehicle will also make its contribution as a storage, not just as a consumer.
Vehicle storage as storage for the house is currently a topic that is increasingly being discussed and there are pilot tests and there are things that are already working.Where are we in development?
I sometimes have the feeling that we are at the very beginning and sometimes I read reports where I have the feeling that this is actually possible today.
The heterogeneous impression does not disappoint. The vehicle as a memory is technically a relatively simple story, especially since a lot of memory goes into vehicles.
And also technically on a DC basis, the so-called CCS is basically bidirectional and has to be brought to it only by small vehicle computers and software.But that's exactly the problem.
The automotive industry of the West is having a hard time with it, because it has a lot to lose, or it believes that it has a lot to lose, and the problem in Asia is getting more and more progressive.But basically the bidirectional vehicle
Currently, Germany is actually at a regulatory stage, because the energy industry simply says, we do not rely on taxes and net expenses.And simply the bidirectional network-operated operation with vehicles is therefore unprofitable.
But there is hope.For example, the vehicle-to-home is economically viable everywhere, because I can simply charge cheap electricity from the market.
I can also do that in Germany now, because the Germans are now also dynamic with tariffs and networks.And the delivery of the vehicle into the house or into the heat pump is very economical today, because the own current is the most economical.
That's why I'm optimistic.Maybe one more sentence about the bidirectional charging.Michael, E3DC has a CE-certified, purchasable solution together with Volkswagen.
This is still a so-called pre-standard and we are pioneers, but I want to be as fair as possible.
The affordable bidirectional shop, so that everyone can buy it, regardless of whether they are a tenant or an owner of their own power plant, we are still a long way from that.
But let's agree on this, Michael, the bidirectional vehicle will also need 5 to 10 years to to land where the home storage has landed, i.e.with millions of pieces and with doubtless success.
There are always two parts to this, once the networks and once the vehicle production.
Yes, we have really come a long way.Five years ago, home storage was always small-sized in relation to the solar area.And over the last five years, the considerations have gradually changed.
In the meantime, I personally have more kilowatt-hours of storage than I have peak in the solar cell.And when I started, I didn't think I would end up there.But it makes sense, exactly as you explained it.If I want to feed back,
then I want money for it.And if I don't get any money, then I'm better off if I can save it in a slightly more expensive battery and then use it at night, for example, or if the price is high, I can pay it back.
So that's the mechanism that the battery ultimately relies on.And we've come a long way, and that's actually a bit surprising.And that's exactly what this podcast is about.
to bring things that we have already experienced and to take a look back and say, oops, not everyone would have expected that.In the sense that, of course, this is guessing puzzles, but what else is coming to us?
What are the next things that are around the corner, that the public does not yet know that this is coming, that this may be secured by the people who know it well?What are the things that are still on the way?
What will come?What does the listener not know yet?Let's start with the most important topic.The breakthrough of the energy transition can only succeed if the production is adapted to consumption.
In Germany, for example, we had about 30 gigawatts of peak-gap power in 2030. That means the difference between secured power and peak load is 30 gigawatts.That sounds bad.That means we need storage and we have to use the load time variable.
That means heat pumps, electric cars and also the power storages depend on the central generation or also on the decentralized, centrally supplied generators. and also work depending on the network load.
This means that the so-called demand-side management draws in every house, that is, the citizen or your listener gets the status today in Germany, he has to pay more if he spends the wrong time and he pays significantly less if he spends the right time and that is both in the net cash and in the reference costs.
This means that the reference is regulated much more strongly by the market.So there are no fixed electricity tariffs, but the Day-Ahead-Market, in which 50% of all energy is traded in Germany.
This will increase significantly with the success that energy becomes cheaper. and with the success that we can add more renewable energy and with the success that we have more renewable electricity but a much higher uniformity.
That means that there will be load management, energy management and the so-called Smart Energy Providers will do the race in many countries.
because we simply have so many loads and because you have to bring millions of vehicles, heat pumps and generators to cover much better.And that's actually good news for the customer.Only people can't imagine that.
But that's the trend, so to speak, and that's what we're dealing with.And to repeat that again, for an E3DC customer, this means that Michael is more or less programmed for solar autarky.
That means, he makes sure that he generates as much solar as possible and the rest he simply transfers via the socket.Whether private or commercial.And he will be very much cost-optimized in the future.
And there is an energy timetable for this, Michael.That means, with us it works like this, this is the so-called 360 degree energy management software package.
That is, it is looked at, what is the weather forecast, what is the load forecast, what is useful for the next day on the schedule, especially in winter, for the memory.
That means the memory is told, do nothing, please load or please do not load, but there is also an unloading barrier.
And so it happens that the customer gets the cheapest energy and in this case it is also the most environmentally friendly, because the electricity is also just as expensive when it is produced fossil and it is just as cheap when we have too much renewable energy.
This means that cost-optimized timetable management for flexibility control or the flexible loads or in German it is the taxable consumption facilities and the corresponding energy management.
That will be the driver for all customers, also for PV customers.I can't judge it in Switzerland, but I don't think Switzerland will take it all out either.
And that's why it will be the most important function for many, many European countries that energy management in the household or in the rental apartment or in all SDs have electric large consumers or electric generators or storages.
And that is simply the dominant trend.And I can mention an energy company, E.ON in Germany is a very large one.They also say that, so to speak, the flexible loads and the dynamization are the drivers that bring people to the energy transition.
Because at the end of the day, the energy costs and decarbonization are only to be done if I supply my consumers with cheap electricity accordingly and that is then renewable.
Otherwise I just can't build anymore because the whole thing is not coordinated.Because we no longer have secured power like coal power plants or nuclear power plants. but we have only secured performance through intelligent communication.
Yes, and this future is around the corner and for anyone who does not yet have a counter who is able to cope with it, still notices that the night rates and the day rates are no longer so different.This is the sign that you can see on the horizon.
You can see that the night rates are approaching the day rates.And that is exactly a simple logical consequence of what you have just explained.And the next step is then not only day and night, but hour by hour and at some point minute by minute.
And with that, we then have the possibility of these 30 gigawatts, for example in Germany, This means that the smaller and smaller this gap becomes, the less conventional power plants are needed to compensate for this.
Of course, this requires a lot of regulatory inhibitions that have to disappear.On the other hand, my Swiss supplier for electricity told me, yes, we are in the process of retrofitting all power plants.
That's going to be a couple of years faster than I thought it would be.And then we'll be in a world where electricity is no longer measured by day and night, but quite differently.And we'll all have to get used to that.
That means something that is still needed is in the minds of people the willingness to to accept or even embrace a new landscape of energy prices.
And that means that you either switch on the tumbler when it's right, or it switches itself on when it's right.And that probably takes people, I suspect, almost longer than technology.
Yes, and another trend, Michael was still asking about trends, is clearly the trend of savings.That means,
Unfortunately, the whole thing comes from Asia, because Europe does not produce or still does not produce, but the memory costs are decreasing, the larger the memory is.And there is a good example.
BYD now has a Utility Scale memory of 100 megawatts, where the kilowatt hour installed costs 100 dollars.And with that we are at the memory costs at 2.5 euro cents.
That means the storage costs are decreasing for quarters, for utility scale and network-operated network expansion storage below the production costs.And that actually answers the question of what is electrically possible.
And I don't want to look at the hydrogen now, but the electric storage actually shows that it can bring the energy transition to unimaginable heights.In Germany, we have about 50% renewable electricity purely in electricity.
We still have a high fossil heat and mobility demand, but 80% are definitely possible without problems, also with a decarbonization in the heating sector and with electric mobility.And that's actually something that makes me very happy.
Because the technology is now taking the next step and the acceptance will come for it.And with that, the costs for the network expansion, which are very high in Germany due to the renewables,
Because the big power plants have been shut down and now many small and medium-sized generators have to be connected.And because the networks also have to be reinforced for electric cars.
But the network expansion can also be drastically reduced by technologies such as storage and especially the bidirectional vehicle.And in German, the traffic jams are therefore not more intelligent.
But in the distribution network, for example Germany, a lot is still possible.And with that, the energy transition can at least continue to a large extent, as long as it is still considered possible.
Yes, Andreas, that with the quarter storage, that was very interesting for me to hear again.Because I just expanded my house storage and then asked myself for a tenth of a second, why did I do that when quarter storage are so much cheaper.
And then I was able to give the answer right away, yes, I have an island emergency power solution.I am also responsible for the electricity for my tenants.That's why I do it.And that's why I need a little more storage.
And then, interestingly, there is always this question, yes, the electricity rarely runs out.That used to be the case, in fact, there was a thunderstorm. But that has changed in recent times.
I have the power outages at home because the energy provider writes to me, he has to expand the grid.And then the power is planned to be switched off.And that is somewhat dramatic.
So in other words, this question of the small storage, the medium storage, the large storage and how they have to be tuned to human behavior, I think we still have a lot to learn collectively about how this works.
Yes, my pet horse is the vehicle as before.
And of course, our systems will also integrate the vehicle as an emergency power supply, which is probably a very clever idea, because the vehicle has a lot of storage and is usually also sufficiently charged.That's one answer.
And the other answer, Michael, is autarky. is basically the cheapest solution, as long as you don't overdo it.
Because the self-production and the time-consuming consumption in your own four walls or in your neighborhood without a public network is, at least according to Germany, highly economical.
And the energy supply via the public network with taxes, according to Germany, is always the most expensive way and should be the exception.
And that has to be the case, because the storage or the energy possession and the PV system as energy possession, or the vehicle, are private investments that have to be amortized.
And they also have a certain value, because the associated network discharge or also the self-generation as a contribution to the energy transition should of course also save costs for the general public.
That means it's not an end to solidarity, it's a contribution to the stability of the energy transition.And that's why, at least for me, self-production and especially on buildings is the best case.
And you asked me at the beginning what motivates me.And what still motivates me is the fact that I can make a building and vehicle with heat largely self-sufficient and that the CO2 balance drastically improves.
And that is simply without alternatives.
And if now the storage of you or buildings on the market can also ensure that the whole network, which is not worth it, or in winter can ensure that renewable energy from the market comes into the buildings as well as possible or as much as possible, then I think we have done everything right, Michael, by using this technology
as protagonists, so to speak, and now it is affordable for all people and can also be used for renters or quarters, even without, for example, me owning a single apartment building.
And that is why the democratization of the energy revolution is also promoted via storage.
Yes, now you have briefly touched on politics and therefore briefly the introduction of Germany How is that actually?Do you still have a government at the moment or not?
And in America, Trump won the US election and I think he is less on the side of green energy.Tariffs are being discussed, the shielding is being discussed.And you just said, we are collectively successful.
I see it that way too, but somehow it's a sub-collective and not everyone has understood it yet.
That's all right, Michael, but two things come to mind.Germany currently has a minority government because the FDP announced the coalition and there will probably be new elections very soon, at the latest in March.
And yes, Trump also won the election.First of all, both are probably not brilliant news for a faster breakthrough of the new couple.But you also have to leave the church in the village, Michael.The fact is that a transformation
No matter if it's digitalization or autonomization or energy transition, something like that takes place in cycles.And there are always setbacks that only show one thing, that the trend is going in this direction.
And I drove a combustion engine today because my electric vehicle was in the workshop.And then I experienced the Bonanza effect and asked myself what I had been doing in the automotive industry for 20 years.And I'll put it this way.
I think we just need more convincing work and also technical facts.And then America or conservative governments will see that they cannot stand against technology and against reason, because their consumers or voters want it.
And I don't think the energy transition can be stopped in any way, even if you But what I also think is that I am an industrialist.
I do think that politics thinks too little industrially and that the industry cannot do it alone, because you must not forget that Switzerland and Germany are very prosperous and prosperity is also based on existing industries and to rebuild them
It's easy to talk to them and you don't just have to give them money or time, but you also have to enable them to travel.And in my opinion, Europe made a big mistake there.
You should have gone to Asia, just like the German automobile companies went to Asia and did joint ventures there. you also have to cooperate with Asian companies for manufacturing technologies such as batteries, PV or heat pumps.
Because, as you can see in Switzerland, the productivity that prosperity has generated in high technologies here is not that high.And that has to be corrected, so to speak.I think that this is possible.
The USA have already started, maybe not in the fine English way, with the Inflation Reduction Act.But of course it shows that customs and protectionism are definitely not the way to go for a balanced geopolitical economy.
And I still see it all positively, just like the electric car currently has a small kink.But in the long term, that's not a question for me.That's why you actually have to give the energy transition a little more time.And I see that now
quite positive and, I would say, America First harms Europe, that's right, but it will possibly accelerate the energy transition in Europe.
Yes, who knows.But this consideration is good, Andreas, that you bring there.I have now read out again that politics should have shown the way a little stronger, to take the fears and to level the way.
Because, and you also said that, time, it takes time in the heads, it takes time for adaptation, it takes time for the inventory industries.
If you don't want to give the inventory industries the time and don't show the way, so show these reliefs and the way in which you can cooperate, then of course you build friction and we have to get rid of this friction again.That is our task.
with enthusiasm and the demonstration of success, simply to demonstrate that it is possible and that it comes in any case.And that, yes, I don't want to say the resistance is useless, but it's on my lips.
Yes, maybe one more supplement.So I actually think that if you are an entrepreneur, you should always ask yourself one question.Will this really happen? And does it make sense to work against a trend?And if so, how long can you keep it up?
But I think whoever has dealt with electrification or digitization or renewable energies will only realize one thing.It's just a matter of time, but not the question of whether.And with technology, you just have to say,
In Europe, we have lost the software, the power electronics, the system integration, and also the battery technology.We have to deal with this geopolitically and economically.
I think it's possible, but the question is whether it's possible with politicians who have little contact with the industry.I think that's at least the question of fate for Germany.Everyone is talking about innovation and industrial promotion,
But at the end of the day, the German industry is also suffering from the acceleration of transformation.And how should it do it if countries are not in agreement or if you do not take unconventional measures?
Because the Asians are simply superior in numbers.And you can see it from the example of the PV industry.I had the opportunity to speak to Herbert Dies in Kitzbühel this year.
It is true that there are very large industries built up and that you can't just do anything here and then be more economical than the big ones who have invested in Asia for 10 or 20 years.
And precisely because this is the case, you just have to cooperate.And cooperating is not negative. If you're wise or clever, you cooperate, but you don't shut the door.
And so that might be a recommendation now for dealing with the Asians, with whom I, of course, also have to fight, because I have a German company with German production and made in Germany and German engineers.
But still, I would say, we need the expertise and cooperation with Asia, at least when it comes to batteries.And I don't think Switzerland can do without it.Switzerland is also a very successful trading or financial product, if I may say so.
And even Switzerland still has industry and it will have to deal with Chinese competition. whether they like it or not.And that also promotes the acceptance of the energy transition, Michael.
And ultimately, whether you like Trump or not, he certainly fell out of time, if I may put it that way.But he still has productivity as a basic idea.And that's not wrong, I think.You can only argue about the way for a long time.
Yes, then we want to hope that the cooperation is now slowly so that we can avoid friction losses.
But we have a successful model with this electric solar technology, with the storage technology, with the network control and we definitely have the opportunity to save a lot of fossil energy.
Oil is good for many things, but actually too bad for combustion. And I think on this path we have to move innovatively and move forward with partnerships.Also partnerships between the automotive industry and the solar economy, for example.
Of course, this is new for both sides, but you are on the right track.You show how this could work.
Yes, that's a very good point.We now have a cooperation with Ford.You wonder, because Ford is not necessarily known for electric cars in a big style in Europe.
But you just have to get along with the big ones, because the bidirectional shop requires a lot of patience and you have to prepare the same in the big organizations, so to speak.
And maybe I can go into a great principle again, Michael, because you asked what the trend is. So we founded an organization called Energy Hub Alliance.And you can easily imagine that.
That means that the energy transition also requires communication with a device.I'll put it in colloquial terms.
So you also have to communicate with the access data of your vehicle or with the cloud of your heat pump manufacturer or with the manufacturer of the wallbox. And a good energy management has to do it cleverly, of course.
That means in German, not every device manufacturer can do its own energy management and integrate every other device manufacturer.And for that we have a very nice abstraction level.
And we believe that the principle is very successful, similar to the app principle on the mobile phone.And it just needs manufacturer communication standards.
For example, in my opinion, if you have a bidirectional charger, then the energy management simply has to know how much charge state Mr. Herzog has and what he has entered, when he wants to leave again.And maybe you get some other information.
And for this it is simply necessary that the energy management also communicates with the manufacturer of your vehicle, if you want to. And that's exactly how it has to communicate with the market.
That also means digitization and smart energy communication is a guarantee of success.And in the simplest case, you can break it down.In Germany, TIBA is very popular.
And I can also, this story, as a tenant, I can also buy a wallbox and a TIBA electricity contract and then, through this intelligent communication and full integration, also the cheapest charging current at any time.And that is also a trend.
You still have to see that without this communication and without the control of a heat pump, which also works with the electricity market in the long term, the energy transition in the final expansion is not feasible.
And that means we also have to digitize even more.And it is obvious that artificial intelligence, Michael, Of course, it also has to be included.
It sounds weird now, but the better the prognosis of your behavior or the better the prognosis of the load and the market, the better the energy transition works.
That means we also deal with things like that, Michael, that you can tell your system how you want it to behave.I'm exaggerating now.You don't have to tell him that you're on vacation tomorrow. But if you want to, you can do it.
And you can also teach the system rules, how you want the memory to be recharged in your electric car or other things.And that also simply affects the energy budget.
That means that the Energiewende is also interesting because it is now, so to speak, in a dimension that is economically
In Germany, we are talking about more than 10 million flexible loads and we are talking about buildings with 20, 30 kilowatt power and several 10 kilowatt hours of capacity, even 50 or 100.
And that's why you just have to understand that the word flexibility is energetically is very easy to do for everyone if there is a corresponding perfect energy management behind it.
And the customer doesn't have to worry and he can fully automate everything.
But just as we deal with a mobile phone, apps and data as a matter of course, we will also do the energy of everyday life with energy management, because it will be mostly fully electric and only
And that's a story that every manufacturer has to think through for himself, what kind of strategy he's driving.And you have to help the big ones, because, I'll put it this way, a Volkswagen or a Ford,
should not manufacture wallboxes or energy management himself.But he has to be able to expect that the customer can use his products as best as possible.And this principle is also a trend, Michael, which is not even so conscious.
Or an example maybe still the smart meters in Germany are connected to us, for example, via the EE bus.And these EE bus standardizations are not bad either. But the EEBUS can't solve everything.
That means we will also have new standards, also meta or IP-based protocols, which will simply make your home fitter for the market, so to speak.And the device integration, as they say, will be fully possible one day. and no longer be the exception.
And you usually need gateways for that, but there are also a lot of devices that already have these gateways in them.That means we can clearly see the trend of total networking, to put it negatively, or positive, of the perfect interplay.
It needs, as you say, standards.Do these standards move fast enough to converge? Or are there too many standards?And how does this relate to the Asians?Because in the end, the wallbox has to harmonize with the car, no matter where it comes from.
This means global standards.And we briefly mentioned earlier that there is a little bit of sand in the transmission.How do you see this currently?
Are these standards developing in such a way that they are really useful for everyone and make it easier?
I am positive.Especially the vehicle and the wallbox that you mentioned are very, very well standardized.I just say as a keyword OCPP for the wallbox, as a keyword type 2 mode 3 for the solar charge.
It is supported by almost all vehicles and also the so-called 15118 communication standard, i.e.the fast charge and the bidi charge. are standardized, you don't have to worry about that.
But in the direction of grid economy, Germany has 962 distributed grid operators.I think that will be a bit more difficult.And with technical devices, I think it will be possible.And that's why I'm optimistic.And with the heat pump,
Also there it will be possible to do things with the manufacturer or via EEbus or Modbus or via the SG Ready interface, which may not necessarily be necessary today, but tomorrow through this interface pay out in a monetary way.
And just a quick comment, Michael. You can halve your energy price in Germany in terms of energy in the future, if you take advantage of the dynamics.And I think that's worth it.It's a technical challenge on its own, even if you don't need the money.
It's just fun, as our company name says, to innovate, to save and to be effective.And by the way, the efficiency will also increase enormously through these interfaces.
because you switch on the devices at the right time and let them switch on optimally and then switch them off.So a completely new way of looking at renewable energies as a device manager, so to speak.
Yes, there's a lot of new stuff coming that we haven't had on us yet, which will help us to accelerate the energy transition and thus be even more convincing in front of the people who say, yes, that's not possible, but it is possible.
And proof is precisely these technologies that will help us to bring it all together, to bring it all into play.Great.Thank you very much, Andreas.That was pretty clear now.
Yes, thank you very much, Michael.Those were very, very moving questions in a moving time.But we are working on the answers and even there you have to As a company, we have the right short-term and long-term strategy.And I think we have it.
What I would like to say in conclusion is that we have almost 150,000 customers and E3DC is a success story.
And the great thing about E3DC is that our customers have integrated energy management and that the devices are compatible and that we have already thought a lot about providing people with the so-called updates.
And with us, these options are certainly better than many, many others who joined very late or who may not have thought this system concept through.
And that motivates me every day, Michael, to make the functions better, just like Apple makes its updates better and removes the mistakes.
And you can see that the energy transition is alive and that the behavior of a device actually has to change and has to change for the better. And what you knew about the system yesterday is not what you know tomorrow.
Yes, thank you very much.Then we want to say goodbye here and maybe look at how things have developed in three or four years.It will definitely be exciting.Thank you very much for taking part here, Andreas.Thank you, Michael.
And I would also like to thank you for your commitment in Switzerland and for the energy revolution.You're welcome.
Watch out for the next episode of Michael's Green World.I hope you enjoyed the time with us and come back for more on how to bring together our sustainable and economic progress.
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