It feels rebellious.It feels like this is a bit of the house that is not about me, the mother, not about me, the unpaid carer.
This is about me, the writer, and that's my space, and it's visible, and it's right there in the front room, and it's not hidden away.
What can we do to make our homes a place for creativity?Well, in this episode, we talk to Penny Wintzer.She's the author of Home Matters, how our homes shape us and we shape them.
And as a carer and a mother, it's been very difficult for me to keep working for creatives, particularly, particularly creatives who work from home.This has really been important.
And, you know, maybe you don't have room for a whole desk yet, but, you know, if you can, if you can't have a desk, give yourself a shelf.If you can just give yourself
off a shelf, just give yourself anything you can give yourself, but make sure it's sort of visible to you and represents what you want to do with that kind of creative side of your life as well.
She's also a nonfiction book coach, and we talked to her about both how writers can think more deeply about creating and curating creative spaces.
And we also talked to her about the art of writing nonfiction and creating a stunning nonfiction book proposal to send to agents.
This was a really beautiful conversation about writing, entrepreneurship, freelancing, and what it means to invite creative possibility into our homes and into our lives.So without further ado, we hope you enjoy this conversation with Penny Wintzer.
Welcome to the London Writers' Salon, Penny.
Thank you so much for having me here, Matt.It's just an absolute pleasure.
Now, this has been a long time coming.We've been admiring your work from afar.You know, it's fascinating looking at your career.
So, you spent 15 years as a freelance interiors photographer and before that, you were an assistant to a fashion photographer living between New York and London, living what seems like a pretty glamorous lifestyle.
But I'm curious, you know, there are two different mediums at the surface, photography and writing, but in what ways do you feel that the art of photography is similar to the art of writing?
Oh, I can't.It's really funny.I think in some ways on this surface, they seem very different, but in reality, they're not that different at all.They're just different tools for storytelling.
So I feel like as a photographer, I was very much a storyteller.I was just using a different medium to the medium that I use now.
And interestingly, because my dad works in film, and that was my whole childhood was in and around film, my dad uses images and words together.Like that's sort of what I grew up with in a way.So to me, they do very much go together.
And it felt very natural for me to do both.And actually, weirdly, even though I became a photographer at university, my degree was in creative writing and film.And then I went off and became a photographer and then came back to the writing later.
So for me, it's all sort of one and the same, just different tools.
And how do you think your experience, I mean, it sounds like you studied writing prior to photography as well, but how do you feel like it's shaped or maybe currently informs your writing?
And I guess maybe another way to think about this is, have you noticed that you approach writing differently than writers perhaps who don't have that experience as a photographer?
Yeah, that's interesting.And I've spoken about this with some of my other writer friends.I think I do write in a very visual way.I think I naturally come to the page in quite a visual way.I am writing some fiction now.
And it's funny, I really struggle with interiority, whereas a lot of my writer friends really like get stuck in interiority and struggle with the more kind of, you know, visual and action based aspects of fiction.
So I think it informs the way I do come to the page.But I think
I think aside from that it's also really informed my career I guess and the business side and the work side because I've been a creative freelancer since I mean the last job I had like job job where I got was on a payroll was in 2002 in New York and I've been freelance ever since.
I was 23 years old.So I have been a freelancer for almost my whole adult life.And I think working in different creative industries and working in an industry where basically I got used to rejection.
I got used to working with teams for a while and then moving to other teams.I got used to working constantly with new people. and having to adapt to new teams all the time, to adapt to creative teams.I'm really used to working in creative teams.
So the process for me of being edited is amazing.I love it.I love working with an editor.I love working with a copy editor.So all of those things are quite comfortable for me as a creative, I guess, because of the career I had previous to this one.
And then when did writing more seriously enter the picture?
It was when my youngest child went to school actually, because I had been writing my twenties a little bit, but kept it all private, working on fiction.
And then when I became a parent in the early years, I really could only focus on being a parent and my career as a photographer.I didn't really have much room for anything else apart from those two things.
And obviously photography was like a really creative career for me anyway, aside from being how I earned a living, it was also quite fulfilling in lots of other creative ways. So there wasn't really any space for anything else.
But when my youngest child went to school, I had for the first time in I think five or six years, I had a Friday available to me.I'd always worked either two or three or four, eventually four days a week when my children were young.
But the fifth day was coming to me.And I was like, absolutely not going to let life swallow that fifth day.I'm not going to do, I'm not going to take any photography jobs.I'm not going to spend my time retouching.
I'm not going to spend all my time doing the housework.I'm going to write.And so I made that decision, like that first term she went to school, I absolutely kind of ring fenced that time for writing.And that's really when I started writing again.
And interestingly, I had always done fiction and screenwriting before that point, when I was younger.
And what came out of me at like, what was I, I was like maybe 37 years old, 36, 37, newly divorced, a parent, one of my children was disabled, suddenly all this life writing came out.And I didn't even know where it came from, it just came out.
And that was, I think, just because I gave myself a place, just time, space to play.Yeah, so that's sort of how it came about, yeah.
And I think your story, hearing you share this, I'm thinking a lot of people in our community who are maybe at this place or about to be at this place, maybe they're not quite at that place where like, OK, I'm ready to carve out that time.
But I feel like there's a bursting of creativity coming out.And I wonder what were you doing?Because it sounds like you weren't sure the life writing.You weren't sure that's what was going to spill out of this.Yeah.
But what did you do to create an environment to let that flow?What did that look like if you didn't really know what you were trying to do yet?
So the first, the very first thing I did on that Friday, and I think this was really important, it helped me take writing seriously again for the first time in quite a few years and be like, right, I'm going to dedicate some time.
And for any of you who are listening who are parents, whether you're single parents or you're in a partnership or, you know, whether you have children with additional needs or not, or whatever the situation, you have to be so careful about what you spend your time doing, because there's just so many things you could spend your days doing.
And so one of the things I did was I signed up for a city lit course that was in person.So I had to go into central London and it was just one and a half hours and it was quite an open sort of free-ish one.
I think it was something like, I don't know, getting started writing again or something like that. But basically the point was I was taking my writing seriously.I was turning up.I had to actually go somewhere.
I ended up spending more time that day working on whatever started in that session.And so I think the important thing for me was giving myself the time and making myself take that time seriously.And I think that was really key for me getting going.
Do you remember some of those early exercises or prompts they took you through in that class, if you can recall?
I don't really, but it almost didn't matter what it was.
I mean, he was a very good creative writing teacher, but it was almost like I just had to open up that possibility again and just get those muscles working again that I hadn't really worked on really since I've been a parent.
So about six years, I hadn't really been writing for.I had done some classes in my twenties. which was a bit tricky as a freelance photographer.I was, and I traveled constantly for work and things like that.So it became really difficult to do.
I did a Birkbeck course at one point, it was evenings, but even that was so difficult.I couldn't get to Birkbeck in central London at 6pm.I was shooting until, you know, 7pm or whatever.So all of that stuff was quite difficult as a freelancer.
And so what I really just needed was just something to just open, just open up those valves again.And I think it almost didn't matter exactly what it was.It just had to be, you know, a good creative writing teacher.
Yeah.It's such an important point.And sometimes it's almost getting yourself in that state or that place before you feel like you're ready.And like, even by going through the motions of something, then you kind of get in the feeling of it.
And then something starts to happen, which is why I don't know if you have a journaling practice or a lot of I do, and a lot of us do.
It's like, you don't really feel like doing it, but just once you start, you're creating a container through which something can flow.
I don't have a consistent one anymore.I was pretty religious about it before I was a parent.So all through my 20s, because in fact actually it was when I was living in New York that I picked up the artist way.I was living actually my flatmate
in New York was a writer.She was a freelance writer.And I think she was the one that gave it to me.
And so the first time I did The Artist's Way, and I fully did it, the full course thing, I don't know if any of you guys, I'm sure some of you have done it, was, you know, probably 2002.
And I think I did it maybe three or four times all the way through in my 20s.And so I did do a lot of journaling then.I do it less now.Interestingly, I think the more life writing I did, the less Journaling I did but it's a good reminder.
I need to get back to it.
It's actually really it really does help open channels Yeah, well, thanks for sharing that gonna jump to your most current book home matters and we can dive into that There also is a previous book that you had So maybe we'll circle back to that when we kind of compare those those two books in your process with those But let's turn to home matters.
Do you happen to have one?
You know what's funny is that I'm actually at my boyfriend's place.This is not my place.I don't even have my books and stuff because I have a disabled child who doesn't know how to control his volume or not interrupt.
And so I can't do evening stuff at home.So I'm not even at my house.There we go.There's Home Matters.
It's gorgeous.And I wonder if you can turn to a page and in particular, some of there's beautiful photography in there.
Yeah, because, well, this is something we can talk about.It's a hybrid book.
And so it is both images and words, which is sort of been interesting and challenging to kind of communicate because it's not an interiors, a traditional interiors book, because it is narrative nonfiction, but it does also have images in it.
So not quite a typical narrative nonfiction either.But yeah, so that.
It's gorgeous, and I'm loving it.I was talking to Penny earlier, I just moved into a new house just about a month ago.
And so the things that you write about in this book, it's top of mind for me, as I start to imagine and create a space, a living space.
And so in that book, you take us the readers through 13 artists and writers to explore how our homes shape us and we shape them.And this kind of voyeuristic view into people's homes, this is like, it sounds like it's catnip for you and for me.
I've always been fascinated by having an inside look into someone's home.And in many I feel like sometimes the pinnacle of my travel experiences are when I find myself in someone's home, and I just love being inside it.
And so that's what this book offers people, and in particular, you know, creative people.So what is it about being and peering into people's homes that intrigues you?
Oh, I love it so much.And actually, it's one of the things I miss most about not shooting anymore.
So this was so enjoyable to do because not only did I get to go back to shooting and being in other people's house again, but I got to have exactly the conversations I wanted to have.
Because it's funny, as an interior photographer, so I did, I shot for editorial magazines, I did commercials, advertising, that kind of thing.
But for the editorial side, where I was in people's homes, shooting their homes, you know, I was not the writer.And often the writer wasn't even there when I was doing the shoot.Often the interviews were happening separately.
Sometimes they were having it at the same time.But I would always get to have conversations with the homeowners.And that was one of my favorite bits.I do love a chat while I'm shooting.I really enjoy it.
So I'd be shooting, chatting to the homeowner, hearing all these interesting stories.None of it really is going to end up in an interiors magazine because it's not the kind of stuff that they're putting necessarily in those interiors magazines.
So this for me was one of the things that was so enjoyable was that I got to decide. What I was going to write about, about these homes, about what it was that I enjoyed and loved about being allowed into these people's homes.
I think, because as a photographer, I have a really different experience of these homes than the readers of the magazines have when they're seeing the end product.
you're seeing something very curated, you're seeing the way I'm telling you to see the home to a certain extent, but then also the editor and the designer and how they've decided to lay it out and what they've decided to put in, which is something that I never ever had any say in.
And then, of course, the words as well, which I never had anything to do with.And even the words themselves, Each magazine has a very specific remit about what it is that they talk about when they have house stories.
And they even have house styles, you know, that are very, very specific.So one of the things I really loved about being inside other people's homes was really the 360 view I got of everything.
And that included all of the problems that came with these really quite beautiful homes, as well as the really amazing things as well.And so that was kind of, that has colored my view on how I see homes. and how I see my own homes hugely.
And it's something that I didn't feel ever really quite came across in the editorial work I was doing.
And so I wanted to bring all those things together and look at how having been in hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of other people's homes over my career,
how that changed how I feel about homes, what I learned from some of those people about homes and how they created their homes, and all the things I saw that I didn't want that maybe look really great.
So I wanted to interrogate what it was about those homes that made me feel instantly like I felt like I was somewhere that was a proper home and where other times I was in a home that didn't particularly feel like a home at all.
I'm really excited to dig into some of these questions for me and for everyone as well.
But I'm curious to hear, I think there was a podcast where you mentioned, I think it was your own podcast actually, that actually this was like a conspiring between your agent and your editor at first and that actually you didn't really want to write this book.
So can you tell us about that and why it was so...
Yeah, it was it was really funny.And the reason I mentioned this, I think, because I think it brings up a lot of things about homes and about the way I felt about my career and all sorts of things.
But so yeah, initially, my agent, Julia Silk, she was having lunch with my editor, Sarah Thicket at Quadril, and they were talking with Sarah had come over to Quadril. I think she had been at Fourth Estate before.
She had come over to essentially really build this kind of hybrid list where they had a lot of, they wanted to build a hybrid list that was really strong narrative nonfiction, but was, you know, potentially illustrated as well.
And she said to my agent, I really want a book about homes. something that thinks deeply about homes.And my agent was like, oh, that's interesting because one of my writers used to be an interiors photographer.
And so they sort of sat down and went, oh, wouldn't it be great to have this?Wouldn't it be great to have that?
And then, so later that afternoon, my agent emailed me and said, oh, we really, we were chatting about this and we think it's such a good idea.Can you pitch her a book about thinking deeply about homes?
And my initial reaction was like, no, I am not an interiors writer. You know, I don't write about homes.That's something I did as a photographer, and that's not something that I do as a writer.
And it was a really instant, quite automatic reaction that I actually think I might have even closed my laptop lid.I just went, what is she thinking?And then, of course, within about five or ten minutes,
I was like, well, if I was going to do it the way I would want to do it, I would write about this, and I would write about that, and I would do this, and I wouldn't do it like that.
Because I had this, I don't know, very strong opinions about homes from all the time I spent in other people's homes that nobody, I felt like nobody wrote about.
Then I realized pretty quickly that maybe actually I did want to pitch the book on that idea.
This is so interesting because so often we can think, you know, there's a guy we interviewed, Derek Sivers, and he has this phrase, it's either hell yes or no.Yeah.
And hearing your story, it kind of makes me question that a little bit of like the things that we viscerally say no to sometimes are the things that are for us.
And I'm just curious, is this like a common thread for you or was this unique in rejecting something and then coming back to it?
Yeah, I think sometimes, I think we always need to interrogate our reactions to things, especially when they're strong.Either they're really a hell yes or a hell no.I think sometimes we need to just interrogate that a tiny bit.
Yeah, I did have that a little bit with my first book, actually, a little bit.
Just in the very, very, very early stages of when I was trying to figure out what it was I wanted to say, the really, really early stages, my first book is about unpaid care.
And I remember when I realized the book needed to be a book about unpaid care. And my first reaction was like, oh my God, no, no, can't be.And then I realized, of course, everything I'm writing around that is, this is exactly what I'm writing about.
And part of the reason I had that uncomfortable, oh no, I'm not sure if that's what I would do, is exactly the whole first chapter of the book, which is why is it so difficult to talk about unpaid care?
So what was my initial difficulty in admitting that this is what I was doing turned into a whole chapter of the book.And in fact, had to be the first chapter because it's such a hurdle to get over with that topic.
So I do think it's really interesting to pay attention to your visceral reactions because sometimes they're trying to communicate something to you.
And in this case, I did actually write a little bit in the beginning of the book about my initial reaction to becoming a serious photographer as well because I worked for fashion photographers. And I was not going to be an interiorist photographer.
And in fact, one of the photographers that I worked for suggested, maybe you want to go into interiorist photography.I was livid.I was like, just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I need to photograph homes.That was my actual reaction.
It was the noughties, I was working in a very weirdly, a lot of people don't realize this, fashion is a very male dominated area, very male dominated and I had to dress like a boy basically, I mean I felt like I was in that first generation of female assistants.
So I just had this reaction to what I thought was me being sort of forced into a box as a female photographer.Looking back, it wasn't what he was doing at all.He really genuinely thought I would like shooting homes.So I don't blame him.
But so the interior thing, kind of, I started doing it and I was like, Oh my God, I actually really love this.I love it.And I'm really quite, and I was geeking out of it.
I just, I loved being in other people's spaces and, you know, being allowed into these very private worlds.I absolutely loved it.So it turned out to be perfect for me.But I think in some ways as a writer, I had that similar reaction.
It turns out I've written two on the surface, quite different books, but they're both very domestic and very political at the same time, the topics and sort of weirdly not that different in some ways because of that crossover between the domestic and the
Yeah.Fascinating.Yeah.It's a nice reminder.If we have a reaction to something, there's probably something there for us.
Yeah.Or just something to, yeah, dig into a little bit.Yeah.
So, let's talk about the book and in particular, I have the lens, me creating a home here, but also, you know, other people who want to create a creative space and have a hunch that you've learned a lot of things through this process.
And in particular, this is something, you know, and just admittedly, I've never been in this position before.You know, I've of course lived places, but I've never felt like I had a place that I was creating my own.
And I'm feeling that for the first time and realizing I have no idea what I'm doing.However, I also realized that I intuitively approached it about, and this is you talk about this in the book, from the inside out.
And you say, rather than starting with the external, the colors, the layouts, the materials, begin with how we want to feel and behave.
And as I walked into my house in the first few weeks, having pretty much a bed and a couple of chairs and some kitchen stuff, that's the question.I'm like, what do I want this place to feel like?
And I wonder if you can talk a little bit more about that, because I know you spoke to some people around this for the book and just how might people inquire deeper about that question?How do I want to feel in this home?
Well, first of all, congratulations.Very exciting.It's a really interesting one because I think
our automatic thing when we're thinking about homes and how we decorate them and how we build the interiors, also the homes that we choose in the first place, often we are thinking about the surface level.And also we're thinking about often money.
And well, if I had money, I could just do this or I could just do that.But interestingly over the years, because I've been in some really expensive homes with some people with a lot of money and they are not the nicest homes. necessarily.
You know, they're fancy and sometimes they're convenient and spacious and you know, all these sorts of things.But they weren't the homes that really spoke to me when, you know, when I came into them.
And the homes that always really spoke to me were the ones that really felt very aligned with the values of the person whose home it was. You know, when you've been in hundreds and hundreds of people's homes, you can feel that really quickly.
You can feel, no matter what style it is, you can feel really quickly when you come into a home and it feels very aligned, very intentional, and very kind of reflective of the people who actually live there.
And so really that comes down to paying attention to yourself and what you want and need and the wants and needs of the people who live in the house.
It's interesting because I did speak to lots of, because I am not an interior designer, I spoke to lots of different people in the book, artists, designers, creatives, all different people.
One of the people I spoke to who I just, whose work I really adore, Karin Haller, who is a behavioral designer.And she's written a really great book called The Little Book of Color, which I very much recommend if you guys are interested in color.
It's a really great little book.
And she was really, you know, as a specialist who does this, both in commercial spaces and in working with interior designers, teaching interior designers this work, but also working in private spaces, she said, the first thing we have to do is we have to learn to pay attention to how we feel.
So it's all about practicing going inwards. how do you feel when you're surrounded by certain colors?How do you feel in certain kinds of lights?How do you feel in smaller spaces as opposed to bigger rooms?
How do you feel in rooms that sound a certain way?And actually nobody can really tell you that.You have to just pay attention to what's going on inside when you're there.
And the other thing she said, which I really, really loved is she's like, and actually a number of this came up with a number of people.It's like, it's not that deep in the sense you just have to play.And if you don't like it, you change it.
And I really loved, and in fact, actually all of the designers had that attitude.And I think the reason the designers all came from that perspective was that they have spent their careers playing in whatever way.
And so they have quite a lot of confidence in play.So, you know, they throw two, three different colors together and they either like it or they don't like it.They don't worry about it too much.They just change it.
They might try things that clash together or things that harmonize together, but either way they just try it and they see what happens and they don't worry about it.
But I think those of us who are not using visual mediums all the time, and particularly in our work, because obviously when you do it for work, you get tons of practice of doing things over and over.
We just don't necessarily approach those things with the confidence to just try things out.So I would say that's the thing that came up the most is it's not that deep.Just play around with it.If you don't like it, change it.
That's so helpful.Good.I feel like I'm playing a lot and I'm learning.Yeah, because it's not until you feel something, you see it, you realize if you like it or you don't like it.
So you say in the book, homes are places that can reflect and support who we are.And so we can safely be ourselves, which is beautiful.It's a combination of our past and also our present.
But also, I was thinking about how they can potentially be reflections of our future. as well in supporting and encouraging us to be the person we want to become.
It's something I'm thinking a lot, like maybe I'm not that person yet, but I want to grow into it and creating an environment that helps support the person I want to grow into.
And I'm curious if you learned anything about kind of like crafting your future self, either maybe something you've done in the past as a writer or any of the creators, artists, homes you've seen?
Yes, and I think this is a really important thing that came up in the book.It's something that definitely I have experienced.One of the writers I go and see in the book is Carole Giles, who is a life writer.She lives in the northeast of England.
She's also a single parent.She has four children.A couple of them have quite complex needs for various different reasons because of that situation.She has been forced to kind of learn to love where she lives because of the situation she's in.
They're just that they are where they are.And that's that. That was a really interesting conversation because there are lots of reasons why I won't be moving either for very similar ones.My son goes to a special school.
I just can't put him in any old school.He's at an amazing school.I wouldn't dare leave the borough and risk his school place or the funding or anything like that.It's just very complex.
Plus also, I mean, I actually have to go to tribunal to even move schools.It's very complicated.
So, you know, when you're in situations like Cara and I are in, and there is no total flexibility, you can't just up and sell, you can't, you know, how do you kind of carve out what you need from the space that you're in if it's maybe imperfect, and there are lots of us who are living in situations that are imperfect.
So for Caro, particularly because she has to homeschool some of her children, and she's also a writer, for her, she doesn't have a spare room, doesn't have a lot of space, because she's also homeschooling.
She put her writing desk, she put a writing desk on the landing.She doesn't have a whole room, but what she had was a landing.
And she put her desk there, she put up, she's got a pinboard with all these kind of inspirational things and beautiful things that people have sent her, and research for what she's working on.
It's a really important space because not only is it really nice for her to work there, but it's also signals to her daughters that she is a writer, that she is a professional writer.
She's not just there for them all the time and meeting all their endless needs.She's also got a part of herself that is this, and she wants to be there.She wants to be visible. that for her daughters as well.
So as well as being something for her, she wants to also signal to her daughters that this is me, the writer.
And she told me, you know, I can sit there at my desk and it's on a landing and, you know, the girls are around and, you know, around the corner is the washing basket and stuff.But at my desk, I am Caro, the writer.
And carving out that space was so vital to her and to her creative work and also her professional work. I mean, I did something quite similar in the pandemic.I actually didn't have a desk.
I hadn't had a desk for many, many years, even though I've always been freelance.I mean, this is ridiculous, really.But I finally, during lockdown, after years of just working at the kitchen table, I finally gave myself a desk. in the living room.
So it is in the living room.I don't have a spare room.But I've got all my books there.Sorry, you can't see it now because I'm not there.But I've got all my books there and I've got my space.
And actually, to me, it actually can feel – and I think there will probably be people listening who are parents and carers who this will resonate with – but it feels rebellious.
It feels like this is a bit of the house that is not about me, the mother, not about me, the unpaid carer.This is about me, the writer, and that's my space.And it's visible, and it's right there in the front room, and it's not hidden away.
And as a carer and a mother, it's been very difficult for me to keep working.And to me, visually being able to see that and see all my work and see my books and see all these other books of all these incredible writers that are there around me,
it just it is kind of feels like an act of defiance to all the rest of the domesticity that's kind of always kind of trying to close in on you.
So I think there are going to be lots of different situations where that's true, but I think for creatives, particularly, particularly creatives who work from home, this is really, really important.
And, you know, maybe you don't have room for a whole desk yet, but, you know, if you can, if you can't have a desk, give yourself a shelf, you know, if you can just give yourself
off a shelf, just give yourself anything you can give yourself, but make sure it's sort of visible to you and represents what you want to do with that kind of creative side of your life as well.
That is beautiful.I feel a collective amen in the room here.
What I really love about what you said is that the writer having that desk, I imagine as a carer in particular, there can be a sense of guilt maybe to go and do your work or your writing or whatever and neglecting, you know, I'm not saying this is true, but I can imagine there's a feeling, can be feelings of that.
What I love about that is it's actually a signal to her daughter that, you know, mom is, this is serious work.
And then it's not about you.It's actually about signaling to another, which is really beautiful.
I think it's really, really important.And actually, I don't feel guilty working.I am made and I think I am unusual in this.
I know a lot of women feel very split and torn between their work and their paid work and their writing, creative work and their unpaid work that they have to do.But I don't particularly.But that's it.
There's a whole backstory to that that maybe we don't have time to.
to go into but I know this is a big struggle and this is a really common big struggle and I think one of the things that can really help with that those feelings of guilt particularly if for those writers who are listening who are not yet being paid for their work hopefully it's you know in the future but absolutely not being paid yet that's a big part of life as a writer having periods of unpaid writing work
then it's really important that we are able to take our work seriously before someone is giving us permission to take it seriously.We have to decide that for ourselves.
And I think sometimes taking up physical space can be a really helpful part of that.
That's beautiful.I think you just gave a bunch of people permission to carve out spaces for their own if they don't have it yet.
So, you mentioned and even just sitting down to write or creating that space and then sitting down, you hint at it's a ritual in a way.You're signaling now I'm doing this thing, I'm entering this space.
I'm curious if you have any rituals or practices that help you get into the writing or maybe reset yourself when you're feeling, you know, creatively stuck or if not you, if any of the writers of the homes you visited, if you noticed they had any rituals.
Well, I would say the biggest thing about being both a creative and unpaid carer slash parent, and especially doing it on your own, is that I have to be so flexible.
I have to be so flexible about when things happen and how they happen and all that kind of stuff.So I would say I can't be really rigid in any sort of
But in terms of the things that I find really helpful, one of the things that I have to do, which can be a bit tricky, and I'm sure loads of people this will resonate with, is I have to obviously task switch lots.
You know, sometimes I'm editing other, because I work with other writers, I'm editing other writers' work, so I'm editing their proposals.I've got their books in my head, and I have to be able to let it go.
so that I can then work on my own stuff, or I'm interviewing someone for a podcast, or I'm writing non-fiction, doing some edits on my own stuff, and then I'm trying to get back to my novel that I'm working on.
You know, task switching is really difficult when you're doing this kind of quite deep sort of, you know, cerebral work that writing is.So, walking helps me massively.So, sometimes what I'll do is I'll go, like today I was editing a proposal,
And then I had to prep for an interview that I'm doing tomorrow.So what I did was I timed it for lunchtime so that I then ate some lunch and then I went for a walk because actually I can't task switch that easily.
Maybe some people find it really easy, but I sometimes find it hard.So that really helps me doing something physical and getting fresh air that can really help between different tasks. I mean, otherwise, I do have to say pretty flexible.
And that does change depending on what's going on.Obviously, like with writing books, you're often at different stages.And so the different stages demand different things of you.
But one thing I have discovered, interestingly, is that there is nothing I love more when I'm trying to write quite a lot.
So either I'm in the middle of a manuscript, or I'm in the middle of a big edit or something, is having a day, I look at the diary, and there's nothing booked in.There's nothing that brings me more joy than
So even though I can't write for six hours straight, knowing I have six hours without interruption, I do my best work that way, even though I will take a break and I will run and do something else and maybe switch to another task that's more admin-y.
But just knowing that nothing else is booked in is really helpful.So I do when I'm writing like on deadline, I do make sure there's a few days a week where there's no interviews or there's no – because I do client calls and things like that.
I make sure that there are some days of the week which don't have any of that just so then I know that I've got the flexibility that I need to sit down.
Which is a nice reminder.I mean, I'm thinking about it for myself and I'm sure everyone here is, you have to create those boundaries yourself and things can creep.So, it's a good, wonderful reminder.
So, one of the things I also want to talk about is the balance between memoir and nonfiction.You mentioned, you know, this being a hybrid book and there's a lot of people in the community here who are maybe sitting in this space.
They're not sure on the spectrum of memoir and nonfiction where they sit.
A spectrum is a good way of putting it, yes.
Right?Writers in particular who have like flopped too.They tried heavy one way and then said, okay, maybe I need to peel it back and go one way or the other, either because the publisher wants you to do that or because you need to do that.
For this book, for Home Matters, can you talk us through your approach for how you found that balance?Because you do pepper in some very personal stories, part of your narrative.
is quite a bit of memoir in it.I wouldn't call it a memoir, but there is quite a lot of memoir elements to it.
So I guess for me, the easiest way to describe it is narrative nonfiction because it has some of my narrative, but some of other people's narrative in it.
So yeah, I mean, it's interesting because this book, it felt like if I was going to do it, I just wanted to do it the way I wanted to do it.And the proposal went back and forth a number of times.
The sales team did want to have quite a bit in there that was you know, to make sure that we want the reader to have some takeaways, you know, we want there to be some clear takeaways.
And there was all this extra stuff in the proposal, the end of each chapter that was going to be a little bit more clear on the kind of takeaways for the reader.I really didn't want to do it.
As soon as I started writing it, I did the first chapter, which is about my childhood home and my current London home.
And I did the interviews I need to do and I wrote it all up and I sent it into my editor and I said, I'm not going to do this bit that sales want me to do.Can you back me up?And she loved the chapter.
So she went to the rest of the team was like, yeah, this is how we're going to do it.And they went, oh, okay. So I got to do it the way I wanted to do it, which is awesome.
But yeah, so I mean, I think for every individual writer, it's going to be different.I think it's always really important to remember you're the one that has to do the work.
So if yes, you do need to take into account what the publisher wants, absolutely.If you want to publish traditionally, you are going to need to do something that they are happy to publish. But you're the one that has to do the work.
You know, if writing memoir brings you joy, and you just know that's the way your story needs to be told, and that's the way you want to communicate what you want to communicate to the very specific audience that you're trying to communicate with, then, you know, go for it.
You know, memoir is hard to sell.Memoir is definitely hard to sell.I would say anyone writing memoir is writing it because they really want to write a memoir, not because Oh, this is a good way to sell a book.Nonfiction is easier to sell.
So for some people, you know, writing a memoir is not the most important thing.
Their most important thing when they often when I work with writers is I have this thing that I need to share with the world, this information, this story that's going to help a very specific community of people.
The most important thing is this book gets published and this information and these stories are out there.And in those cases, I would say if your most important thing is reaching those readers, then really think about
what's going to be best for the readers and what the publisher is going to put out there for your readers.
And so that might be when you perhaps think about making it much more nonfiction if you think that's going to be a much easier way to get your audience and then blending in the memoir aspect.
For me personally, I wasn't that interested in my own story on its own.I'm really interested in my story in the context of other people's story.That's just a personal thing as a writer.I want to talk to other people.
I want to understand their stories.I love writing other people's stories down on the page.I just find that process really enjoyable, that narrative nonfiction.So that's really just what I enjoy writing was what drove that one.
That's great.It's really helpful.I mean, yeah, it's a perfect combination of you have to be proud of it.The market has to want it and you know, you want to have to write it, I guess.
Yeah.Yeah.I mean, writing a book is really hard work, you know, and you're the one that has to do it.Not some publisher who's like, what we really want is this.And you're like, yeah, but I'm the one that has to do the work.So, yeah.
Yeah, sorry, I was just gonna say, and long after they've left the publishing house, your name is still going to be on that book forever, right?
I mean, absolutely.Yeah, absolutely.So, I'm all for being open and thinking about what serves the story and the audience.
Because I think what getting the story out there, getting the kind of ideas out there, reaching that audience is often a big driving factor.
And so if that is your main thing, then I think you do have to be really open to what is going to be the best way to be able to reach those readers.And so I think that's where you need to maybe have a bit more flexibility.
Let's go a little bit deeper into crafting nonfiction book proposals because this is something that you've obviously done really well having two books out now and it's also something you help other writers with.
We actually have some workshop and a program coming up.We'll share more at the end of this.
But if someone has a rough idea for a nonfiction book, maybe it's a concept, they're not sure they want to commit to it yet, they're not sure it's any good, what do you recommend as the first step?
The very first thing I get people to do in workshops and, you know, all the people I work with is to sit down and interrogate.And when I say interrogate, put a timer on, start journaling.Why do you want to write it?
I think that is the number one question that you need to ask yourself because and keep going like keep, you know, as you do with journaling, you know,
do it for a while, do it for a slightly uncomfortable length of time and keep writing, keep making yourself writing.Because when we ask ourselves why we want to do something, why we're driven to do something, we can uncover so much information.
So for me, like I just mentioned, you know, I'm really interested in my story in a wider context. And that's often what's driving me to write the things that I write.
And understanding those things about yourself, about your story, you might, for instance, have some very specific kind of, you know, surface level aims that you want to achieve.
And then you might keep going with your why and then uncover all sorts of other little nuggets underneath that actually really helps you shape how the book is going to come out.
And also even the content of the book, you know, because often we start with a nonfiction book idea It can be so big.How do we narrow it down?We can't fit absolutely everything about what we're thinking about into a book necessarily.
And our why can also help work out how to streamline those ideas and what ideas maybe don't belong in this book and maybe belong somewhere else as well.So it can be helpful for so many different aspects.So it's definitely a great first step.
And so let's say I've done that exercise.I feel really attached to the why.I think I've come to something I feel good about.What's the next step?
I really recommend, and this will depend on how each individual writer likes to work, but I think that starting to kind of put down ideas in a way that doesn't feel too committed.And so sometimes things like, you know, doing mind mapping type stuff.
So get a big sheet of paper, put down your kind of main thing in the middle and start writing down all of your different ideas and thoughts that are kind of coming off from that start visually.Some people like to use post-it notes.
and stick them all up on a wall, start throwing everything out there and start thinking about all the things associated with this book idea and don't overly commit.
I think sometimes putting it into your laptop can feel like over committing so you don't need to do that necessarily right away.Journal by hand or journal but on your laptop but like call it journaling.If you want to call it exercise.
Or put it up on a wall or put it on a big sheet of paper.That can be a really helpful way of kind of approaching it without necessarily fixating too much on very specific ideas just yet and just throwing things out there.
That can be a really good step.
This is sounding a little bit like designing a house, actually.
It's a really funny thing because like I love working on proposals.I absolutely love it.I don't know why I think it's the bigger.I really enjoyed the bigger picture thinking of books.I would probably be a really terrible copy editor.
I'm not great at the detail. I love working with a copy editor because I love what they tell me about like, oh, when you wrote this in this sentence, it made me, I read it like this.Is that how it's supposed to read?
You know, that kind of real attention to kind of detail.I'm not as great at the really, really, really fine detail, but I love the big picture thinking.And I think of proposals as
taking as if you've got for instance say a whole room of helium balloons with strings on them and you're starting to collect them together and hold them in a hand and you're kind of trying to build a shape out of them and collect them all together.
So they're all these sort of things floating around and they're not all going to end up in your hand.
You've got to bring a bunch together somehow in a way that makes narrative sense but not every idea is going to make it and I find that process really quite exciting.
At what point would you recommend someone to vocalize it?Whether it's to a trusted friend or maybe, you know, someone has an agent like yourself or maybe a prospective agent.
Maybe you don't have the fully fleshed out proposal, but you do want to let it out.You want to give it some air, oxygen to see if it has legs.At what point do you recommend someone vocalizing it or not?
It can be a really important part of the process.It can be a part of the process of taking an idea seriously.But I would just be really careful about who you vocalize it to.
As with any writing, I think when you share something early, it needs to be someone very trusted.It needs to be someone that kind of maybe is either very trusted with you personally, or you can trust professionally quite a lot.
because you don't necessarily want to squash something that you're just not able to articulate properly yet.So I would be cautious about who I would share with.Writers groups obviously can be great for that and other writers that you trust.
Agents too, depending on your relationship with your agent and depending on what stage you like to involve them in. But yes, sometimes I find verbalizing it is really helpful because it can just be really good practice.
And one of the things that's super important with nonfiction, I mean with any book actually, who am I kidding, any book, you do need to be able to say really quickly in a couple of lines what it is that the book is.
And in those lines, you need to be able to sum up what your point is that you are making in a way that shows why somebody else would care about it.
And so verbalizing those aspects, the kind of, I guess, the elevator pitch, for want of a better word, it can be a really helpful way of practicing and also taking the idea a little bit more seriously.
But yeah, oh, when exactly is going to be, it's going to depend on who is in your circle and whether you have trusted people around, I suppose.
Yeah, it's this delicate balance of you want to hold it lightly.You want to take it serious, but hold it lightly.Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.Exactly.Exactly.
Yeah.And I'm curious, I mean, you hinted at kind of this back and forth around you're not including your, here are the tips, the takeaways for each chapter.So that's something it sounds like it shaped throughout the process of the writing.
I'm curious around the structure of the book.
And the way you laid out the chapters, and in particular the homes that you chose to photograph and the homeowners you chose to interview, how much of that structure derived from the homes after you visited them versus before you visited them in the proposal?
Yeah, so I'm just trying to think how many – quite a lot of the homes that ended up in the book were in the proposal.Some of them weren't.
I knew that I wanted to visit two homes in each chapter, and my editor agreed that I was allowed to leave some blank spaces because we did want the book to evolve a little bit.And so I didn't have 13 homes in there.
I think I maybe had eight in the proposal, something like that, to give myself a little bit of space. There were some that we just couldn't, unfortunately, match up.
In the end, there was a couple of people that wanted to do it, but we just couldn't coordinate our schedules.It is, by the way, a massive pain to have a photographer come into your house and photograph it.I'll just put that out there.
It's a massive pain.It's not like just doing a quick interview.I was there for a whole day, and as well as shooting their home, we were sitting down and talking for doing a two-hour interview.
So here's a big pain and so a little bit to change I think chapters generally stayed the same mostly although some houses switched into a different chapter because the conversation I had with the homeowner went in a really interesting direction that I wasn't
necessarily expecting.And so I ended up shifting them into a different chapter instead.So yes, I stayed, I would say I stayed quite flexible on that sense, but the essence of what's there is in the proposal.
I did add one chapter, which is the last chapter, the garden chapter.And I was a little bit resistant to the garden chapter at first, which was interesting.
I interrogated why again, and it really did have a lot to do with the fact that I grew up in a really incredible garden.
I connect it very much to my mother, and I feel really guilty about not spending more time and looking after my own garden now more.And so doing that chapter, I'm so glad I did it.It's now my absolute favorite chapter in the book.
And my editor really wanted it in there.And the thing that decided it was that every interview I went and did, everybody talked to me about their garden.They would not stop talking about their gardens.I was like, OK, I'm doing a garden chapter.
That was decided for me, basically. Yeah, but I'm glad.I'm very glad I did it.Yeah, so quite actually quite a bit of movement in this one in from the proposal to although the essence is the same.
Yeah, but but yeah, there was there was movement and you mentioned your previous book tender a little bit.We've touched on it a bit.How was the book proposal process different between these two books?
I mean, we know the second one you were approached to do it and then I'm guessing you retrofitted a proposal based on you know, how did that work?
What happened was when I was I was asked to pitch Home Matters, essentially.I sent them a two-pager, I think.They were like, love the ideas.Can you write a proposal?Went away, wrote like, you know, a 10,000-word proposal.
I think did a couple of drafts with my agent.And then I think the third or fourth draft went to my editor.Then we did an edit together about what we thought was going to work and what was going to get through sales and acquisitions.
And so I think it went through five drafts in the end, maybe something like that, that Home Matters proposal, but it was just for them.It was just for my editor.Nobody else saw it.Tinder was totally different.I was a completely unknown writer.
I'd written some articles.I'd written some stuff online, but I was completely unknown.
I followed some advice that I found on Author Accelerator who I ended up doing training with as a book coach because their advice was so good that I just got some of their free advice and I put together the proposal.
I worked on it probably for about four months or something.Had a journalist friend do a copy edit essentially but basically worked on it on my own.I sent it out and I had a really good immediate response.It was
just very clear that I had hit it, the right topic in the right moment.And I had a couple of offers from agents and I had another couple of agents get back to me and say, it's not quite right for me, but go see so-and-so, they're going to love this.
So I had other agents putting me on to other agents.So I was like, okay, I've definitely hit something with this.When I signed with my agent, we did a couple of tiny edits and it went out and was preempted. So that was a totally different experience.
So I've had two very, very different experiences.Interestingly, that book is almost identical to the proposal as well.
I added one additional chapter that we felt like some stuff that came up in the course of the writing meant that I added a chapter to it.
But essentially, and I added lots of different interviews than I had found originally in the proposal, but that book is almost identical to the proposal. So I've had, yeah, two quite different experiences.
Yeah.Yeah.I'm curious about that two pager that you sent for home matters.
That was kind of like seeding, am I going in the right direction?And then.
Yeah.Cause I wanted to sort of see, well, basically I was like, well, if I'm going to do this, I'm only going to do it the way I want to do it.I'm not going to sort of be a writer for hire to write something.
book about homes that I'm not that interested in.I just, yeah, I didn't want to do that.So I was like, well, if I was going to write a book about homes, this is what I would do.
Tell me if this is the kind of thing you're interested in, and I will be happy to write a proposal.And so that's sort of how it happened.
I mean, actually, even had a first iteration, the very first thing I wanted to do was I actually want to, and I still want to do this, really want to do this.
I wanted it, I want to do an essay collection of all different writers writing about their relationship with their home.That's, I still want to do this.I'm going to, I'm going to work on this.
And the very first bat that I sent off, and these are the writers I want, and this is why I want to ask these particular writers about it.
And the editor that then became my editor wrote back and went, I mean, we love these ideas, but you need to write the books.And so I was like, okay, so how would I do it as narrative nonfiction instead?So yeah, so that's.
which now this lends itself really nicely to this essay collection if you do choose to do it.
I know but you know it's hard essay collections I mean particularly in the UK it's very difficult because you just it's not enough money in it basically so like I would have to if I was going to do it everyone basically everyone keeps putting me off editors my agent everyone's like oh my god it's just so much work
And then you're relying on a whole lot of other people to deliver their work on time.And then obviously, nobody, none of us will make very much money.We'll make a tiny little bit of money, but it's just as much work as doing a whole book.
So everyone's trying to put me off, but I feel like it would be amazing.So yeah, we'll see.
Interesting.Holding back from shooting over ideas, but maybe this is something also for your sub stack or newsletter or, you know, I don't know.
Yeah, it could be something else.
One more question on that two-pager.Was that only appropriate because you had a relationship with your agent and they had asked for it?
If someone doesn't have an agent and maybe they have a connection, is that ever appropriate to say, here's something I'm thinking about, should I dedicate four months to flesh this out into a proposal?
I mean, this is a really good question, and I think it is really important to remember that a proposal, it does take a huge amount of time, and there's no guarantees that anyone will buy it, right?
I mean, like any writing, proposals are, you know, you're really doing a lot of the hard work of writing the book, so it's a big investment in time and energy.
So there are situations where it would be appropriate to do one or two page pitch, but I think only where there is a relationship there.
And so where I know some people have done it have been where they've already published a book and their editor wants something new from them.And is this the right direction to go in?Is this the right next book?
Or if they're not working with a publisher already, their agent does that.And I don't think any agent would knock back a two-pager.I've never met an agent who wants their writers wasting time.People don't.
People want to kind of look at commercial viability and what the potential interest would be and all of those sorts of things.And a two-pager can be really helpful for that sort of thing.
But yeah, where you don't have a working relationship yet with an editor or an agent, it may not be appropriate.
might well be appropriate to do it for yourself, for you to sit on and decide, am I ready and willing to dedicate all this time to a proposal?And maybe a couple of pages actually is a good exercise for yourself as a writer.
And maybe even if you have a writer's group or some other writers you want to share with, it might be a good first step.
That's great, thank you.So maybe a couple more questions from me and then we will turn it over to you all.
So do you have a question for Penny about anything we talked about creating a creative home, writing nonfiction, anything else, pop it in the chat now in about five, seven minutes or so we'll turn it over to your questions.
Hello listeners, just a note from us at the London Writers' Salon.Our interviews are recorded in front of a live online audience and so at this point in the interview we turn to audience questions.
Would you like to be a part of the live audience and ask your own questions?Head to LondonWritersSalon.com for more information.You can buy tickets to the online events or get free access to them as a member.
But I would like to touch on just you writing as a career.
And it seems like today, what it takes to build a sustainable career as a writer involves a career that looks like yours, almost like a full stack author entrepreneur where you're involving the books, of course, but you're coaching, you have a podcast, you have a newsletter.
You already touched on a bit of balancing that. you know, having, you know, boundaries and certain days you do certain things.
I'm just curious because I'm, you know, Substack obviously is a great tool enabling, helping enable this for writers, which is wonderful.And I guess I'm just curious, having gone through this, you're in the middle of it.
Is there anything that you're longing for in building this kind of writing life?Because I imagine this isn't for everyone, you know, it's like,
You have to be kind of both entrepreneurial and a writer to really lean into it, acting both as a business owner and a creative person.And I'm just curious, what are you longing for in this world?
Not that I can solve it, but I'm always just curious, different perspectives.Do you have a magic wand?This is such a good question.
And I think this is where I mentioned earlier about having been a freelance photographer for so many years, where I am, that has given me an advantage.
I'm used to working flexibly, running my own thing, having to be constantly self-driven, all those sorts of things.I am longing for a bit more spaciousness in my diary, for sure.
One of the ways I've gotten that, which I think has actually served clients as well as served me in terms of my schedule, is that I went from only offering one-to-one writing coaching in the beginning to doing small group work.
And that's obviously really benefits the people I work with because it's cheaper for them.But there's this whole added additional thing of we basically form a writer's group.And it actually gives a huge extra benefit.
but less cost for the writers that I work with.And the thing I love about it is that I'm able to contain that work a little bit more because I'm like, okay, well, we're going to meet every week for the next eight weeks to do this work.
And I'm meeting 10 or 12 of you at one time. And then I've got in my diary at the end of that week, the two weeks or three weeks, three weeks probably, I'm going to spend solidly editing proposals.
And so I'm able to really map out my diary in a way that one day a week for that eight weeks is very much dedicated to that group.And then three weeks solid at the end is pretty much entirely dedicated to the editing.So I love that.
I feel like it serves the people I work with and it serves me and it's just joyful to coach that way.And for people who like working in small groups, it's very joyful for them too.So I love that.
And I want a little bit more of that where I can really control my diary at different times throughout the year.
I mean, I've just had like the most mental summer, because summer's a bit mental for me anyway, because my son has very high needs and he's just around a lot, obviously, in the summer.
And also he starts to get, he gets more distressed and things get more complicated as he's out of routine for longer from school.And so the end of August can be quite terrible. And my book was published at the end of August.
And it was sort of completely outside of our hands because of very weird dystopian printing problem that happened in China.And so it got pushed back two months.
But it meant that I'm basically was looking after my son, doing all the promoting of the book.But also in September, obviously, you know, new school year, everyone's like, you know, I've got a coaching group that's beginning in October.
And so I've got to start doing all the work. but getting the word out about all of the kind of things I'm offering for the end of the year.So all these things sort of came together.
So what I'm longing for in the future is just a little bit more space.I want a bit, I need quite a bit of space in August.I want a bit of space in December, but I really just want times of year where everything's a little bit calmer.
Because I want to spend a lot of time writing, obviously.And as we all know, writing takes a lot of upfront investment in time, huge amounts of it before you get commissioned and paid and all those sorts of things.
And so I do hope I have a little bit more spaciousness in my schedule in the future so I can maneuver around with my writing a little bit more.
Well, we want that for you too.And I think we all want that as well.I want that for everyone.I know, right?Since I feel like what we're all longing for.Yeah.Wonderful.I have one more question.
You as a carer, you know, caring for someone, obviously it takes energy.You write about this in Tender.You know, I think about We have coaching is something that we do at the salon, and also you do coaching.
And I'm just curious, looking after ourselves when we're caring for others, whether it's a community of writers or a child, it requires parts of ourselves.And it's really important that we look after ourselves in the process.
I guess I'm just curious if there's anyone who's either a carer right now or maybe some of our coaches here, how have you learned to look after yourself while you're also looking after others?
I feel really strongly about this and partly because of, so to give a bit of context, my first book is not just about me being an unpaid carer to my son who is now 14.
I was a young carer to my mom when I was a teenager and she died by suicide when I was 22.
feel very strongly because of that experience I had with my mom, who was the most incredible mother and didn't start becoming unwell until I was all sort of just before I was a teenager.
I feel very strongly that a lot of what happened with her was her being completely lost in the care of others and not caring for herself.And ultimately, we all suffered because of that.And so this is part of the reason why I don't feel guilty working
Because, interestingly, I feel like work is a lot of how I take care of myself.Earning enough money, which gives me a bit of freedom and flexibility, is really, really important.
And I think, as a mother and an unpaid carer, it does feel, like, incredibly important to the way I take care of myself is to earn a living.
But also I think your creative work, whether that's paid or unpaid, whether your writing's paid or unpaid yet, it doesn't matter.It's work.But creative work can be such a powerful way of looking after yourself.
And I think in a way, I'm writing fiction.Nobody wants it yet.It's still there in my head in a laptop.Nobody has commissioned it.
It's not easy to make decisions to spend time on something like a novel, which you have to complete to a very high standard before you can even think about selling it.
When I could be doing some more coaching or I could be, you know, building my sub stack up more and earning more money and all that kind of stuff.
It's really hard to make those choices, but ultimately I have to do what's going to take care of me in all the kinds of ways, not just financially.And so for me, Doing creative work is a big part of that.So for the moment, that is working.
I'm working on some short stories and I'm working on a novel.And reading, I mean, I know everyone here is going to agree with that, but reading is a big part of how I take care of myself.
I am a huge audio book person because obviously being the domestic load is very high.So if I'm, I can listen to books and cook and fold laundry and clean.And in fact, my son is also can be very noisy.And so
putting on an audio book can also just help me focus on something else when our house can be like quite intense on a sensory level.So yes, I would say earning money, doing creative work, and listening to a lot of audio books.
That's how I take care of myself.
Beautiful.Love it.I'm glad we were able to circle around to that.Thank you for sharing that, Penny.And thank you for this time.This has been beautiful.
Thank you very much.See you later, everyone.
Cheers.Bye.Bye.See ya.Bye.
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