Hello and welcome to the London Writer's Salon podcast.I'm Matt.
And I'm Parul.And each week we sit down with a writer that we admire to talk about the craft of writing and the art of building a successful and sustainable writing career.
These interviews are recorded live with our global writing community.If you would like to join us for the next recording or write with us at our daily Writer's Hour writing sessions, head to LondonWriterSalon.com for more information.
In this episode, we speak with a British literary agent, Sam Copeland.Sam knows the publishing industry from both sides.He's an agent at RCW, that's Rogers College in White, and he's also best-selling children's author.
In this conversation with Sam, we discuss what agents are really looking for, how he decides which writers to represent, and how his understanding of the publishing industry informs his own decisions as a writer.
We also talk about how to craft a compelling pitch letter, his thoughts on submitting internationally, and he goes into some detail about how, as an author, he constructs humorous middle-grade fiction.
It's always fun to go behind the scenes with a literary agent.Sometimes agents can seem like a bit of a myth, a mystery, and we tried really hard to pull out practical tips for anyone who's submitting to agents at the moment.
So without further ado, we hope you enjoy our conversation with Sam Copeland.
And if you're loving these conversations and want to help support the podcast, please rate and review us wherever you listen to us.Each month, we give away prizes to our reviewers, things like mugs and stickers and other goodies.
Plus, it's just a nice way to show us your love and to help keep us going.Thanks so much for listening.
So, without further ado, welcome to the London Writers' Salon.
Such a joy to have you.So, I mean, looking at your career as both a writer and an agent, you write children's books and you represent authors of all genres.
But I'm curious, before we go a bit deeper into your career, what are your actual personal favourite books?And maybe one way to find this out is to know, is there a book that you read and reread again?
I mean, I think favorite books is a really, really, really difficult question.And I don't think it's one I can answer, but I very rarely reread books.Very, very, very rarely.In fact, hardly ever.
But I'm so terrified because I feel like I'm only on this planet once, and there are so many books.And as I say, I very rarely reread books.I know that's unusual.
Is there a book that you've recently read that you absolutely love that isn't related to your work?Two books.
I've just been on holiday.Two disappointing books, which I shan't bring up. And two books which I thought were life-changing in very different ways was Piranesi by Susanna Clarke and The Overstory by Richard Powers.
And The Overstory really was a life-changing book.It made me want to give my life up and go and live in a tree somewhere.
I love that.That's been on my list for so long and I keep hearing about that book.I must start again.
It's amazing.It's amazing.
I see that Lindsay loves it too.Now, you started your career as a bookseller, at least in the publishing world.I'm curious, back in those days, what were you dreaming of for your career?What were you hoping for?
The truth is, back in those days, which makes it sound a long time ago.Am I that old now?
Six months ago, yeah.Six months ago.
Back in those days, when I started working as a bookseller, I wanted to be a rock star.I wanted to make music. And then I was a bookseller for a year, two years, three years.And I realized actually books were my life.They were my life.
And it came to a point where I was like, well, OK, well, I've worked in a bookshop for three years.I think I want to work in publishing.I spoke to a friend. And I said to him, who I worked with, I said, I think I want to go and become an editor.
And he said to me, why don't you try and become an agent?Because that's where the power lies.And it was that word, that word, power.And I just suddenly, I thought, oh, that's what I want.And I was very lucky.I was very lucky at that point.
I sent off, I mean, you tell people nowadays it's almost impossible to believe, but I sent off one letter to the only agency I'd heard of. and just so happens an assistant had left at that time and got an interview and here I am 20 odd years later.
The stars aligned for you.I'm so curious about this word power.So 20 odd years ago, you were drawn to power.Now that you've been in the arena in publishing more broadly and as an agent, who do you think has the power in publishing, if anyone at all?
The agents.Absolutely, it's the agents.I mean, you know, every so often you meet people where you sort of set back a foot or two because, you know, I've recently become friends with the head buyer at Waterstones.
Waterstones is the big bookseller chain over here.
And then suddenly I realized it was like, Oh my God, this person has a, has a sort of power over me, but it's about the power to sort of change lives and the power to shape the culture of the country.That's an extraordinary privilege, really.
It's not tedious power over people that interests me.I have no interest in power over people, but I love being a, I just love being an agent.It's an amazing job.
I know it sounds like a great job, definitely.And I'm curious because obviously it takes a lot of work to become an agent.
And I remember an agent at the Bent Agency a very long time ago telling me that the first couple of years are tough to become an agent.Was that true for you?Did it take you a while?
Because you obviously moved from being an assistant to literary agents to then owning your own list.Is that phase really hard?
It depends how you go into it.I went into it sort of... I had my boss at the time, he was a big agent and I was really happy assisting him and I made sure that I kept assisting him until
my list had grown sufficiently that I was able to sort of take it.I was able to sort of, you know, stand on my own two feet.So at no point was I really desperately worried about the money I was bringing in or anything like that.
So I was probably an assistant for much longer than I should have been.But by the time I finished, I had my list, well not complete, but a complete list ready to go.And I was earning
indecent commission and I'd learnt a huge amount from the agent who is still a great friend of mine and a great mentor.And it's important to have a good mentor, it really is.
Yeah, absolutely.And actually, maybe on that question, how have you developed that relationship with your mentor in the publishing industry?
Well, I mean, the mentor's sadly long since departed from the industry, but I'm still great friends with him and I still pick up the phone to him every so often and I still meet up with him for drunken lunches and what have you.
But it's mostly sitting there and listening to the conversations and listening to him finding his way through problems.One of the things he said to me was,
you know agency but much of agency is simply finding the route through problems another agent once said to me i was ranting about some problem or other and he said you should love problems because if we didn't have problems we wouldn't have a job so that's what i've tried to i just now try and create problems for me to solve just to justify my existence
I love that.I think that's actually really applicable to anyone in any job, actually.
It really is.It really is.It really is.I listened so closely to my mentor that I started, I still do, I'm having conversations with editors and I have the same sort of mannerisms, the same intonations.
So, yeah, it's vital to have somebody you can look at and respect.And I was lucky that I had that.
I'd love to move on to your role as an agent in RCW.Maybe we start by telling us a little bit about RCW and your role there.
Well, RCW, I'm biased, but I think it's one of the greatest agencies in the world, actually, not just Britain, in the world. We represent everybody from Ian McEwan and Isha Guru, Zadie Smith and Donna Tartt, and recently Paul Murray's been huge.
So it's an inspirational place to work.When I landed there, I was just starting to build my list, and I was just surrounded by these extraordinary agents. And that's an inspirational place to work.
And I think, again, I learned an awful lot from the people around me.There's a god rest her soul, Deborah Rogers, no longer with us, but she was so fiercely moral, so fiercely moral.And she was, with RCW, it's all about the authors.
That's all it's about.Some agency is about the agent, but it's all about the authors.And that sort of fed through to me.But when I started, I was surrounded by these great literary agents.
And I thought, well, I'm not going to be able to do the literary fiction that I really want to do.So I started looking at it and go, well, how can I find a space for myself?And I said, well, nobody here is doing thrillers.
Nobody is doing commercial fiction.And it wasn't an area that I knew particularly well at the time.I mean, I know it now.But that's how I first started expanding my list. And that's essentially how I started.
And so you're a director today at RCWE.Yeah.And actually, what does that mean in the grand scheme of things?
So you're obviously an agent, you represent writers, you being a director, how does that impact what you're in charge of or what you're responsible for?
Well, an agent, you're in charge of your authors and their careers.If you're a director, you are in charge of the company, the direction of the company.
Once you've been in a company for this length of time, it becomes absolutely vital that you are part of driving the direction of the company.And especially because RCW are very lucky.
It feels, I know this sounds like a cliche and I know it sounds like a load of rubbish, but it feels like a family.And I genuinely love the place.I love going to work there.I love the people. I am incredibly lucky to work there.
So why wouldn't I want to be part of sort of helping shaping that moving into the future?
And I'm curious because we talked to quite a number of agents and typically they do love their agency and they think their agency is very good.But I'm curious about the way you're shaping the agency.
And I wonder, are there certain decisions, like hard decisions you've had to make to keep the ethos and mission of the agency?
That's an interesting question.Once in a blue moon, there does come the odd tricky decision to make.Yes.But let's not dwell on those.
Let's not dwell on those.
Let's not dwell on the tricky decisions, absolutely.
Yeah, I think I'm just being a bit nosy.I'm just curious about some of the different directions agencies can take because there might be sort of commercial gain to be had.
Well, it might be, you know, for argument's sake, if you have an author that does something which is perceived to be... Troublesome.Troublesome.That's the right word, troublesome. there comes a point where you say, do I stick with this author?
Or do I think, do you know what they've done is so troublesome that this is beyond the pale?I mean, fortunately, those decisions are very, very rare, really.
It makes sense.Well, thank you for sharing that example.
You nearly put me into slippery territory there.
Sorry. I'd love to talk about your role as an agent.I heard you describe your role as an agent as twofold.Firstly, finding new writers, and second, managing the careers of existing authors.
I wanted to just dissect this a little bit, just for us to understand you a little bit and how you think.First of all, finding new writers.Where are you finding writers?This might be a very basic question, but is it mostly your inbox unsolicited?
I mean, I think I am slightly unusual in that the vast majority of clients that I've taken on, and I'm talking 90, 95% of the clients I've taken on, literally unsolicited manuscripts that have arrived in my inbox.
Certainly all my major clients have come that way.And that gives me an enormous thrill, really, that I can look back and the list I've created and say, wow, I found all those writers.
You love debuts.It's on your bio.
I do love debuts.I mean, I love an author who keeps delivering great books.Don't get me wrong.Well, it's not just I love debuts.
I feel I have, I think it's important for an agent to keep discovering new writers, but also I have a need to keep discovering new writers because I'm constantly in fear that everything is going to go wrong with my career.
So I constantly feel the need to reinvent and rediscover just in case all this goes wrong.
Which leads me to the second question, which is around managing writer's careers.As you said, you love debut books, but obviously you obviously have to love and pay attention to the writers that are already on your books.
What does managing an existing writer's career entail?
That is literally my job, really.And it's almost impossible to sort of nail down exactly what that entails.I can throw Excuse me, there's examples at you.
I mean, the first thing that you're doing is once you take on a righty, first thing you're doing is you're having to sell them.And to do that, you need to make sure that you know all the right editors are all the right publishing houses.
Then once you sell them, you need to negotiate the contract.I do enjoy a contract negotiation.
Then once that happens, you need to make sure that the publishing process all happens as it should do, which essentially means make sure the publishers are doing their job.Is the cover right?Is the title right?
Are the marketing and publicity people doing their job?Has the editor done a good job on the edit?Is the author happy with the edit?Is the author happy with all the various moving parts, the machinery of publication?
So you're making sure that process goes well.That's for sort of getting the book to that point.It might be countless other things.It might be discussing with an author ideas for next books.
It might be guiding an author about where they are in their career and how we get them to the next stage.And then there's the million, as I said, it's the firefighting, it's the problems.
You're always blindsided by those, and you never know where they're going to come from.So you need to make sure you're able to think creatively through everything that is thrown at you.That is a fascinating part of the job.
I can see how much care goes into that, having to worry about the health of the book and the health of the writer.
Yeah, I mean, that is my life.
Right.For a writer, choosing the right agent can be such a critical decision.Say there was someone, we've had a few instances in the community where it's kind of like a beauty parade.There are a couple of agents who want to represent an author.
What advice would you give an author when it comes to choosing an agent?Because obviously there's a number of factors there.
It could be the size of the agency, it could be the number of years of experience at the agency, obviously there's a personality,
Reputable agencies is the number one first thing because you might look at an agent and go, well, she doesn't have many clients at all.
But if they're a big agency, a proper agency, that means they've been given the chance to do that and they have the protection of working for a big agency.
So you're not dealing with, hopefully you're not dealing with some fool who has no idea what they're doing. But then beyond that, you do have choices, all sorts of choices.Do you go for a junior agent?Do you go for a senior agent?
And there's arguments, there's pros and cons.When I was a junior agent, I would say, listen, you know what?I don't have many authors.I can absolutely dedicate my life to you. Now I know I'm a senior agent and I'm up against junior agents.
I know that's what they're going to say about me.So I have to make sure that that argument is given short shrift, whatever a shrift might be.Then do you get on with the agent?
You need to be able to trust the agent, not just to be able to sort of do the deal.Are they going to pick up the phone when you ring? Are they going to be there for the long haul?Do you trust their editorial instinct?
What they say, does it chime with you here?Because sometimes you can get an edit that an author's like, no, I just disagree with lots of this.I think you should be hitting probably at least 75%.
When I send an edit, I'm absolutely aiming for at least 75% of the author going, yeah, you're right there. I have many authors who disagree with me.Well, no, they never disagree with me, but they could if they wanted to.
They know they could if they wanted to, but they don't.So editorial synchronicity.You need to know that they are able to negotiate, be firm, be fair.They need to be honest.
How do you discern things like that, their negotiation tactics?What kind of questions could you ask?Or is it just asking around the reputation?
I think you're absolutely right to ask that.And I think that is very difficult to tell.But I think you have to use your instinct.Has this person got the strength and maturity?And you can have that when you're young.
But to argue with an editor and get the best deal for you and get the best royalties for you. I think if they're a major agency, they're likely to be able to get much better royalties than a tiny agency.
So I think, unfortunately, raw instinct will take a long way.
Do you ever have potential clients ask to speak to other authors that you represent?
No, it's not frowned upon.And it is a bit annoying.But it's totally fair.It's totally fair.Because I don't have to go to one of my authors and say, listen, do you mind?Do me a favour here.I'm going to put you in touch with this author.
It is fair enough.It is fair enough.But I mean, I'm only going to put you in touch with an author who's going to say good things about me.But that's all my authors, basically.
Yeah, I know.I can believe it.I can believe it.Now, you represent a wide spectrum of writers, and there may be some people in this room who may consider submitting to you at some point in the future.
Can you give us a flavour of the books that you represent?
Can you give me... Any guidelines?I mean, I see what you have on your website.You talk about both literary, commercial fiction, all genres.
I just love books.I love all books.And I love all genres.I suppose I can talk about some things which I don't particularly enjoy.I don't particularly enjoy books set in the present-day centre-to-bound relationships, for instance.
Anything that is too, too based in reality slightly bores me.So, for instance, I would never be the right agent for Sally Rooney.I've no interest in 20-somethings relationships.
Transfer that 20-somethings relationship to, you know, 18th century Danish coastline, and I'd be all over it.I think with fantasy and SF, there are probably better fantasy and SF agents than me out there, but I do a little sprinkling here and there.
I think I like books which divert from reality in some way, shape or form, whether it be a thriller, whether it be historical. whether it be just something where reality is twisted five degrees, 10 degrees, whatever that is.
That's helpful.I think that's really helpful.I feel like I have a sense of what you're looking for and hopefully it's helpful to anyone who's watching or listening.
I'd love to go a little bit deeper into your submissions pile in the process, if you don't mind.I think a lot of people are quite nosy, curious about this.I've got a series of questions.Let's see.
So first of all, how many submissions do you receive a week?
I do get a lot.I think I'm running at the moment somewhere between 20 to 25 a day.So I'm dealing with, you know, 150 a week.And often when I'm doing my unsolicited pile, you know, I'm doing it. and more are coming in as I'm doing it.
So it is completely brutal.It is relentless, relentless.I wish there was another one of me that could just spend my life doing unsolicited because I actually love doing it.
And do you read every single submission or do you have help to go through every submission?
I am a bit of an egomaniac in that I just can't trust anybody else.I can't do it.I don't know how anybody does that.So it's the fear.So much of my career is driven by fear, and it's the fear that I'm going to miss out on something.
So much to colleagues' frustration, I don't let anybody else near my pile, really. And I do look at everything.Firstly, I get so many that I simply don't have time to say no.I just do not have time to say no.
I can just chuck it into a folder or something like that.But I get so many, I just don't have time.And also, I've honed it to a point where you know within the first couple of sentences whether, I mean, 75% don't get past the first few sentences.
And if you were to describe your feeling or any words that explain how you feel when you see something that you do love, what are you seeing in that pitch, that query letter, that first couple of paragraphs?
Well, query letter, I mean, that's two separate questions.
I'm talking wholly about the query letter at this point.
You're talking solely about the query letter.
Oh, the email that comes through.
Okay, the email.I mean, it's just somebody who can write a good pitch.That's what the letter is about.Nothing else matters, really.It should be no more than three paragraphs.
A paragraph about yourself, because you've got to do that, but I don't really care what's in that. I don't give a hoot whether you are a house husband from Michigan or a high-powered business person or somebody with a million Instagram followers.
I really don't care.It's that pitch.
It's the book pitch.The story.What is the story about?Is that right?
Yes, exactly.I mean, the book pitch.We all pick up books.We go to the bookshop.We pick up books and first thing you do, you flip it to the back and start reading the back.
And it should feel like that because publishers know exactly what they're doing.They want to draw you in.It's about, to use an old fashioned selling term, this is where you sell the sizzle.Yeah, it's a sales tool.It's a sales tool.
And frankly, if you can't construct a letter, you can't write a book.It's as simple as that.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to write an amazing pitch letter, because let's be frank, it's easier to write a pitch letter for a psychological thriller than it is for literary fiction.It's just easier to do that.
So I'm talking spelling and grammar and the ability...
If you're ignoring all advice on the internet and everywhere, and you're writing a pitch letter which is pages and pages, or it's rambling, or it's a bit incomprehensible, I've just no trust that you're going to be able to write a book.
It's interesting because we definitely have a lot of writers here who submit to agents and we do things like a query course to help.
And I find that sometimes writers, because they'll go through multiple edits of their novel, because they're kind of bored by the query letter, they can get quite hung up on multiple edits for their query letter.They'll only want to do it once.
So for someone who's really struggling with the pitch for their book, are there any tips that you have that you would give a writer?
You shouldn't be bored writing a pitch letter.It's a relatively simple job.As I said, introduction, couple of lines.This is a really exciting psychological thriller set in the world of tiddlywinks in Spain.
And then you do a paragraph just about the book, and then a couple of lines about yourself, and that's it.So, but just have a bit of fun doing it.If you're bored writing that... I think it's more fearful.
I think they're kind of... it's the selling yourself and sometimes worrying that they're getting it wrong.Yeah.Just, yeah, around the pitch itself, you know, would you advise they look at the back cover of other books?
Well, yeah, absolutely.As I said, that's absolutely what they should do.They should go to the bookshop, look at what similar books or similar genres, how they pitch it, bestselling books.
The pitch for your book should really, it should only be a few sentences.You don't have to tell the whole story in the pitch, I suppose.In your mind, just imagine it on the back cover of a book and just write that.I'm making it sound simple.
I know it's not simple.I know it's not.
But you're on the other side of this.So that's the context you're coming to this from.You're on the other side.You need something to be so simple, so easy to comprehend, and you want to be given the story that you can get behind.So it makes sense.
Yeah, where's the emotion in the story?What's driving the plot forward?Where's the conflict?All these meaty questions you can deal with.
You've said, Sam, that you will look at every single query, which I have great admiration for you on that.You may not always get back to every writer because you simply don't have the time.
Is it cheeky if an author resubmits to you when they haven't heard from you?Would you mind that?
I mean, you need to make sure you're not doing it too soon because I'll remember.So if you don't hear from me in six weeks, And then two weeks later you resubmit to me.I'm just going to delete it.
So, I mean, unless there's some significant change in that.I, Sam, I know I sent this to you six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, but I've just heard from another agent.They've asked for the whole thing.So just to nudge this up your pile.
Okay, so when there's a good reason to resubmit to you, like another agent is interested, that would make sense.
Yeah.But one positive thing I should say, which hopefully will give heart to some of your listeners, is that some of my most significant writers I've turned down their first book and it's their second book.
Numerous authors who shall remain nameless have said, I don't think this is the right book for you.I think you should write something different.I think you're a good writer, but I think you should write something different.
And they've come back to me with different books and hey, presto.And I've just actually signed an author last week where that exact same thing happened.
It's amazing.I love that you're giving them feedback as well, to just sort of encourage them.
I mean, it's a rare thing.I mean, actually, this author, when I met her a couple of weeks ago, she reminded me of that.And I had absolutely no memory of doing that.So I was like, thank you very much, past Sam.You did well there.
Great.Do you accept memoir?
I would, yes, if it is very well written.
Okay, awesome.So one of the things that we seem to get hung up on when we advise writers on submitting memoir is that agents seem to have different opinions about how to submit.
Some agents want a book proposal, like a non-fiction book, and other agents have said they prefer it to be submitted like a fiction, like a full manuscript.What would you prefer?
I mean, the reason, the difference is sort of historically, I think, where nonfiction writers used to, they used, that's how they earned their bread.Academics would get paid X amount of money specifically to write this particular book.
So with nonfiction memoir, it is still the case that you can get away with only writing a proposal, usually an introduction, chapter outline and two or three chapters.And that's what I would submit with nonfiction.
Does seem a bit unfair on fiction writers, but that's life.But yeah, absolutely.Novelists, we need to know that you can write a full novel.So yeah, it is absolutely fiction writers have to send in a full novel.
Now you have clients from all over the world, I believe, that's correct.Do you accept submissions from writers living in other countries?
Because there was a point in which writers were encouraged to stay local.Is there any reason they should?
There is a caveat to this in that if you're an American writer and you send to me, unless you give me a reason otherwise to think this,
I'm going to think, well, you've already been through all the New York agents, and now you come into the London agents because you've failed there.
So unless you've got a specific reason why you're coming to me, like I'm coming to you because you represent this author and that author, then
There is a nagging doubt in the back of my mind that I'm thinking, well, maybe you're coming to me because New York said no.
So can they say, because actually this has come up twice in the last month for me, where two writers based in the US have wanted to only get representation in the UK.And I think their reason was they just love the UK.
and their books felt appropriate to that market.They thought their books would be better received in the UK.Should they put that in their query letter, that I have a particular love of the UK and I'd love to be represented by you specifically?
I'm not convinced that's a significant enough reason myself.I love the UK.I do think it's a slightly better reason to say
I think the UK book market sensibility might be more attuned to this, but I will be suspicious of, not suspicious, but I will be uncertain that somebody from Florida or Wyoming would have a sense of the UK book market.
So that is slightly tricky, to be honest.
Thank you for that.It's helpful.Thank you for answering all these questions around your role as an agent.I'd love to turn a little bit more broadly to the publishing landscape and then we're going to move to your career as a writer.
So you've been in publishing for a fair bit of time now.I'm just curious, do you think publishing has changed a lot since you first started out?And I suppose by that I mean, is it harder to get represented?
Is it harder to get published from what you've seen?
In some respects, publishing has changed dramatically.In others, it hasn't at all, really.Do I think it's harder to get an agent and publish now than it was?No, I don't at all.
Submitting to agents is a lot easier now, because when I started, you used to have to send manuscripts, you used to have to send paper, and you used to have to wait for that to be sent back. And so now, you can send to 12 agents.
Six weeks later, I sent to 12 agents again and again.The kicker to that is that there's probably an awful lot more people writing books because, frankly, everybody's got a laptop right in front of them.
I think 20, 30 years ago, you probably had to be a bit more committed to writing a book.So that sense that, oh, everybody's got a book inside them, I think, yeah. a lot of people try and exorcise that book.
So I think there are probably more writers attempting to get published.I mean, certainly there are now more books published.It's still, it's not easy.It was never easy.It's not easy now.
There's some kind of comfort in knowing that actually, in a way, some things are easier.Access to resources, access to agents, even being able to come to a talk wherever you're based in your pyjamas.
I mean, you know, you can find out, actually, You can find out within five minutes the names of agents all around the world.You know, bit of research.Before that, you used to have to buy, you know, in the UK, writer's and artist's yearbook.
You used to have to go, like, writer's and artist's yearbook.And so it was really incredibly difficult.Now you just have to look up 20 literary agencies, London, and see what you get.Go to their website, look at the agents.
So it's a lot easier to do your research.
Typically, I might ask an agent around publishing, but I have so much more to talk to you about because you're a children's book writer.My one final question on the publishing industry is your take on social media for writers.
It's something that scares writers all the time.You mentioned there that you don't care in a query letter how many followers a person has, but from your experience,
Having seen a writer all the way through the publishing process, how important is it for an author, and I recognise it differs based on the type of writing, how important is it for an author to be visible in public on social media, whether it's a Substack, Twitter, Instagram?
It is almost completely irrelevant.Almost. I think it's useful for an author when they're setting out on their journey to... they might make connections with other debut authors, that sort of thing.
But I don't care whether you've got one follower or a hundred thousand followers.I think sometimes it helps if you've got three million followers, but it's almost an irrelevance.
I think five, 10 years ago, publishers were like, oh no, you must get on social media.But I think it has proven to be a pretty ineffective tool at selling books.You can have 20,000 followers on Twitter, and that can translate to sales of 200 copies.
It's very difficult to sort of manufacture sales from social media followers.
email lists are helpful, but authors are there to write books.They're not there to create fan mail lists and what have you.At the end of the day, it's up to the publisher to sell the book.And I think it's great.It is.
It is great, you know, if an author is on social media and they make friends.But nobody should feel pressured to go on social media, especially now.I think we can all agree that it's a cesspit of of anger and fury.
I think we're all in agreement there.Actually, this might be a good transition to talking about you as a children's book writer.What do you have in place to be visible?
I know you've got your website, you have somewhat of a social media presence, but that's also for your career as an agent.Is there anything that you have in place that you think is helpful for you as a children's writer?
To be honest, Not very much.I think there are authors who are much better than me at social media.The people who are canny on TikTok and what have you.Personally, my website, I update every so often.Not very often, not as often as I should do.
Twitter is basically dead. I don't really use it.For a long time, I've not been able to say anything beyond the most banal statement without getting jumped on, so what's the bloody point?
Instagram, you know, I don't really think Instagram sells books that much.That's not to say that social media cannot be manipulated by authors and publishers, but there's only a select few who can game it like that, and I'm not one of those.
I think this is music to our ears, to be honest.I think many people worry about it, so it's really... Well, they shouldn't.
Worry about writing a good book.I mean, honestly, that's the only thing that should be a worry.
Yep, love it.And so you are an author of many children's books.Am I right?There were nine that I counted.There's some middle grade picture books.
Yeah, I'm busy editing my tenth at the moment.Well, no, I should be busy editing my tenth, but I'm slightly late.
Yeah, and people keep wanting to talk to you on Zoom calls about your expertise. So your style is humorous and adventurous.There's a real lightheartedness to your writing.It's fun.
What struck me when I just researched you a little bit is that you said that you never thought you'd be a writer.
Absolutely correct.I think when I was, you know, I do so many school visits and I always get a kid saying, you know, hands up, did you always want to be an author?
And the truth is not for a second when I was a child did I think I would be an author because it was too It was too much of an alien concept being an author, too much of a ludicrous dream.Never for a second did I think I'd be capable of doing it.
They were just otherworldly creatures, authors.I mean, they still are creatures in some respects.And then as I progressed through life, I sort of thought, could I?And they're like, no, no, no, I couldn't.
then i became an agent and people would say to you oh you want to write your own book i would always say no literally no interest in writing at all so i came to it sort of very late in life and it was it was because it took me that long to realize
what I wanted to write and what for me was the right thing and the thing that I knew I could do.So that's why I didn't want to be a writer.It happened to me like a thunderbolt.
I was literally sitting at work one day and all these things came together at once, which was I was doing therapy, And that sometimes can create an artistic outpouring.
I had kids of a certain age and many other things sort of all came together at once.And I just thought, you know what?I could have tried writing a children's book.I literally started writing at work and it was like heavens opened or something.
And I found I found my voice at the age of sort of 40.What was that?Forty three, something like that.Forty two, forty three.
And so this was just an idea that came to you or a scene that came to you?
It just started with a voice first.It was a voice.It was the narrator which came first.And then I thought of an idea about a boy who, whenever he's scared, something happens to him.And I was like, well, what could happen to him?
And then suddenly I came up with the idea, what happens if he changes into animals?Not the most wildly original idea, but it's all about the execution of the idea.And it's not the most original idea.
But I thought, OK, what happens if he changes into animals?And I was like, that's brilliant, because I'm never short of a plot, because something happens. And he can change into all sorts of different animals and what humor I could get from that.
And then I was writing it.I thought I was writing about fear.And then I slowly realized I wasn't writing about fear.I was writing about anxiety.
And then that's when it all really started clicking into place, because then I realized, well, there was a question my therapist
asked me, just as about to start writing, or maybe it started already, I can't remember, but it's the most obvious, I think it's a very obvious therapist question, but it sort of shocked me to my core, which was, if eight-year-old Sam was in the room with you now, what would you say to him?
And that really did, that sort of, well, I was sort of taken aback and I got quite emotional at the thought, because I had a quite difficult childhood, but I thought, you know, ploughed through.
But that made me sort of realize this was an eight-year-old child going through this.And then what I wanted to do was I wanted to write and, you know, I wanted to show kids that they were never alone with their problems.So almost all my books
deal with problems that children face.So that's the beating heart of all my books, really.
It's a really beautiful story.It's really interesting to hear how this came to you.I just want to go a little bit deeper into that writing process, just the first book.So you had this idea, you say the voice came to you.
How long was it for you to then write that first draft and what did you do next?
I mean, the writing of the first draft was pretty quick, really.It was probably, I don't know, two or three months.It's like first album.You have your whole life to prepare for it.And then suddenly it flows out of you.
That was a really exciting experience for me.So then I finished the book and I sent it to agents, which was an extraordinary experience for me because being an agent.So I sent it out anonymously and I'd love to say... What name did you use?
I didn't use a name I just sent it anonymous in publishing and I created the email address the anonymous in publishing at gmail.com and I'd love to say the reason I did that was because I wanted it to be a fair crack of the whip and I didn't want
to be accused of privilege or anything like that but the real reason was i was so terrified that it was absolutely garbage and i was going to be a laughingstock of publishing which can be set all around publishing that's the real reason why i did it anonymously so yeah i sent it anonymously and there was one agent
who had the smarts to look at the metadata of the Word document that I sent through.And even though such a bloody thing existed at the time.So I sent that anonymously.Five minutes later, I get a reply saying, thanks very much for this, Sam.
And I was like, I was out of breath.I absolutely spiraled.I had no idea how this person had worked it out.So yeah.
I once did that as a literary scout, so there was an author who submitted under a pen name.It was a manuscript going around the industry, and we figured out it was actually a well-known adult writer, but he was changing genre.
What a moment to be discovered.And do you feel that, first of all, I can only imagine how tough that was, feeling exposed.
But I'm just thinking, you sending off that pitch, do you feel like throughout that process as a writer, you always had your agent hat on?
one particular advantage I had was I knew at that time that publishers were desperate for funny middle grade.I knew they wanted that.And that was one of the things which sort of pushed me into it, because I knew they were asking for it.
And I was like, you know what, I think I could, I'm sure I could do this.So I was privileged that information, yes.
Editing your own work after that first draft, creating subsequent drafts, again, did you use help?Were you just using your own sense of what works?
The first book, you think you're editing your book until you actually get it to an editor.That's a very different ballgame entirely. I thought when I sent it off, I was like, this is it.This is like they can just publish this straight away.
And even though I worked in publishing, I still thought that.But then my agent came on board and she didn't edit.And then I was lucky and it sold.And that's when the hard editing started.
And just a bit of a time check.I have around five or 10 minutes worth of questions still.But if you have any questions for Sam, now's a great time to start putting that into the chat. Hello listeners, just a note from us at the London Writers' Salon.
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In terms of writing middle grade, humorous fiction, were you clear from the start that this, I think you spoke about, you knew that it could be a series, you knew you had multiple iterations of this, Charlie and his problem turning into an animal, like a chicken or a mammoth.
Were you very clear on the future that this could have, with the agent hat on? Did you continue to write that series because you knew there was a market for it or did you just continue to write it because you loved it?
I continued to write it because I loved the characters.And I finished writing the third book and I suspected it would be the last of the series.And I know it sounds deeply pretentious.I was so sad to leave these characters.
Because you have to care for your characters.If you don't care for your characters, then I don't know why you bother writing.You have to care for your characters.I really did.
If somebody had told me that before I started writing, I'd be like, on your way, son.Don't be so pretentious, but it's absolutely true.And if I don't care for my character, then there's something rotten in the state of Denmark.
leads me to my next question, because you just said before you started writing, you wouldn't have understood that.How have you changed as an agent, do you think, since you have become a writer?
I mean, it's given me a huge insight into the anxieties of being a writer.Right from the outset, I saw the anxieties of submitting to agents.I then saw the anxieties of of being submitted to publishers.
Once you have an agent, you think, hooray, I've got an agent.And then your agent says, right, I'm sending out to publishers.And that is, oh, that's tough going.But being published, it's an extraordinary honor.It's an extraordinary privilege.
And it's incredibly exciting.But it can push you in ways that you never thought possible.It can create anxieties which did not exist before.It can make you just push buttons, which you didn't know were there.
And to have that understanding, I think, to me is invaluable, because I now truly understand what it's like to be an author.It's one thing being told something, but it's another thing experiencing it.
Makes sense.Thank you for that.I'd love to just talk about writing humorous fiction, because you not only write for children, but you write funny fiction.Yes.
I love talking about this, by the way.
Good.Do you think there's different types of comedy writing for children?
I mean, yes, there is.Absolutely.
And how would you describe your humor?
I think it's not for me to say.I mean what does annoy me is I write books which for me are packed with heart and packed with meaning and packed with emotion and care for kids and so many other things but because I might write the odd rude joke
you get sort of pigeon holders.Oh, you're the fart gag guy.Oh, the humour is just because he changes into animals, that sort of thing.But for me, humour is, it's so difficult to get right humour.I work so hard on it.
Every joke, every joke that I create, you know, you have to sort of get the build up to it right.And then you have to hit the landing right.And I carefully craft and hone all the jokes
So, and I think there is an awful lot of sneering in publishing and the wider world about funny children's books, or funny books, actually.The way I see things is, do you know what?
I write books with great plot and fantastical worlds and everything all the other children's writers do, but I make them funny as well.
Sounds to me like you have layers, right?So you have the sort of gag, the thing that's funny, but underlying that, there's more.
Oh God, it's all absolutely it's about layers.But also, it's about it's about not being patronising.You know, when I talk about fart jokes, it's easy to just write, oh, you bent over and farted.
But you need to make sure that the joke is so nuanced, it's going to make not just the child laugh, but the adult laugh.And if it doesn't make me laugh myself, then why should it make a child laugh?
And I am incredibly fortunate that I've had so many emails from whole families saying, we've all loved reading your book.And I've had literally videos of whole family roaring around laughing.
And that is just the most incredible, incredible feeling and what a true honor and privilege that is.
So I'm hugely passionate about the power of children's fiction, but I'm incredibly passionate about the importance of humorous writing, because I think humor is one of the greatest tools of communication.
And it's certainly a tool I use, well, I try to use, sometimes fail.So the idea of having a book without humor to me is, it doesn't really make much sense.
We speak to the writer Jenny McLaughlin about her funny middle grade writing.She talked about when she first started out looking at the bestseller list.
I think she actually went into Waterstones and bought the books at the top of the list and studied them.Do you turn to other books for inspiration?If so, are there any other authors that you would recommend?
I think anyone looking to write funny middle grade fiction should definitely pick up your books.Are there any other writers that you've drawn inspiration from?
The one who jumps to mind in writing funny fiction is an author called Jenny Pearson and her debut book, Super Marrakech's Journey of Freddie Yates.
When I started reading that, it was submitted to me, I started reading with a sinking feeling of like, oh God, this is better than my books.And I thought, well, I'm going to have to take her on as a client now.
If she's going to beat me that way, then I'm going to have to win this way. And she really taught me an awful lot about how to weave heart in with the humor.She's an absolute master of that.I mean, she would be the best in the business.
And she's the one that I think has taught me the most with funny writing, who's around now.I mean, you could go back to sort of Roald Dahl, just a genius.
Are there any books you'd recommend to writers who want to improve their storytelling?Is there any craft books that you've turned to that have helped you?
You know what?I've never read a craft book in my life.I think there are some, which I can't remember now, but I've never used one.
Fair enough. All right.Well, my final question to you is, we often talk about a mountaintop.At any point in our lives, we're aiming towards something where we're trying to move towards some imagined future, our hopes and dreams.
And maybe at one point being an agent and being a published writer and winning a published writer was your mountaintop.But you're kind of there now.What about now?Where is your mountaintop?What would you love to happen in the next year or two?
My psyche is, OK, I might be at the top of this mountain, But the mountain could crumble underneath me at any moment.So I need to make sure, oh, there's a bigger mountain.If I get to that bigger mountain, then maybe that won't crumble.
And I get to that mountain, I'm like, OK, well, no, this could crumble as well.So I'm constantly pushing myself to be a better writer and to age and discover more writers through, as I said, so much through fear.It all goes back to my childhood.
But let's not turn this into a therapy session.
But I wish for you that you continue to grow as a writer, as an agent.
And do you know what?I'll rest when I die.I think I am very lucky because I have two jobs which I absolutely love.I love being an agent.I love being an author.
What an incredible, I use the word privilege, but it is both, both are privileges and both are a joy.So I'm incredibly lucky.So that helps drive me.
It's lovely to hear.Well, that brings us to time.Thank you so much, everyone, for being here.And thank you, Sam.This has been such an incredible insight into your life as an agent and also as a writer.You're so honest.
You definitely are entertaining.Sam, what's the next book coming up for you?
I've got a sequel to Alex vs Axel next year.Who knows?Maybe some secret projects after that.
Who knows?Wonderful.Thank you so much, everyone.Well, Sam, thank you once again.
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