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Laura Chavez Moreno is an award-winning researcher, qualitative social scientist, and assistant professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, where she teaches in the Department of Chicano and Central American Studies and Education.
She is the author of How Schools Make Race, Teaching Latinx Racialization in America.Welcome, Laura.So nice to have you here.
Thank you so much.I'm very excited and very thankful for the invitation.
Well, I love to start with the same question that I always start with, and you can take it in any direction that feels good to you, which is to tell us about your journey as an educator.
It's a pretty long story because I have extensive experience being an educator.It started when I was in high school.I got the idea that I wanted to become a teacher, and I pursued that from an undergrad degree education.
And I was undecided about whether I wanted to become a high school teacher or a Spanish teacher.
And my motivation was to provide students like me who are, for example, immigrants from Mexico, learning English, a better education than the one I had received.So I was undecided between history and education and, I'm sorry, history and Spanish.
And at the time I was living in Arizona, I grew up in Arizona, and Arizona banned bilingual education when I was an undergrad. Well, because of that, I noticed that language was really a big issue for the Latinx community.
And I decided to then choose to become a Spanish teacher.So that was kind of that was the the path that I took.So I became a Spanish teacher and I worked in the school district of Philadelphia in Pennsylvania.
And I was there for five years working as a as a high school teacher of Spanish.And then but I have extensive teaching experience from, from kindergarten all the way to high school and then undergrad graduate.
Now I'm a professor at UCLA, so also teaching PhD students there.And then also I have teaching experience in teaching older adults in, for example, retirement community.So pretty, pretty broad in terms of the age range.
And in terms of the other aspect of the educational journey, I really think that It has been my own experience going through public schooling that really affected me, influenced me in the decision about education being very important.
Absolutely.Yeah, I agree.I mean, I think that we bring so much to the table of our own journeys for many teachers.I also became a teacher because I didn't really like school and didn't have a great experience at school.
And so I think it's interesting just seeing like and reflecting back on our journeys of like how you said you were at this kind of inflection point.
and then having Arizona ban bilingual education and like how those external factors sometimes can help us get clarity on to where we're going to go next and how to use our passions or our experiences to change things in education.
And so I'm curious a little bit about your going from a classroom teacher to working in higher education.How did that come about?
I always wanted to be an educator and I had imagined myself being in the high school level and I didn't really want to leave it but my partner and I moved to Los Angeles from Philly and there several things happened that had me pursue then I guess what I could call like my backup career of doing a PhD and I say backup because I hadn't intended to leave teaching
what happened is we moved to LA and at the time there was a hiring freeze.And also being from a different state, certified in a different state, I was not able to find a job teaching.
So I thought, okay, well, I guess I'll pursue a PhD, which was my backup plan when I was a master's student.But I ended up loving research.And the good thing is that as a professor, I get to still teach.So it ended up being a win for me anyways.
Yeah, so interesting.Again, I'm just like how different things happen.And that's so such a interesting path that it led you on.And I know now you've kind of combined both your teaching experience and your research to write a book.
And so can you tell us about how schools make race your book and what inspired you to write it?
Thank you.So I'll start by saying what I mean by how schools make race.So what does it mean to say schools make race?And what I mean by that is that our society is a racialized society.
And schools are important institutions in our society that contribute to racialization in our society, that contribute to our society thinking that race exists and how it functions in our society.So this is what I mean by schools make race.
Schools teach us either in direct ways or in indirect ways about what is race and what are the racialized groups in our society.
Great.Yes.Thank you for the background.And can you tell us a little bit from that point of, you know, thinking about schools and the important role that they play, how did you come about writing?Like, what was your purpose in writing this book?
I wanted to tell the story about how a specific bilingual education program constructed ideas about what is race and the Latinx group.
And I wanted to focus on the Latinx group because in the US imagination, there's not really a doubt that there is this white race group and then a black race group, for example.But there isn't.
Sometimes people don't imagine the Latinx group as being a racial group.So I figured that it would be good to use that as an example of how schools make race.So how is it that Latinx is a racialized group?
And how is it that schools contribute to the Latinx group being a race or being a racialized group?
Yeah, and I know that you focus on the bilingual programs and just bilingual education and the role that those play.
And so I'm curious how you can tell us about the state of bilingual education, any systemic failures that you see and kind of where to go from there.
Sure, thank you.So first off, I want to share that I am a big advocate of bilingual education programs.
And they are, it's, we need to acknowledge that bilingual education programs are a counter or they're challenging what has been in the US historically, the dominant practice of just focusing on English and assimilating students and
not wanting them to maintain their home languages.So bilingual education programs are an important way for communities to combat that racist practice.
So what I'm hoping for in this book is to not say that bilingual education programs should be done away with at all.That's not my point at all.It is to improve bilingual education programs.
And one of the ways that bilingual education programs, to your question is how do they, I think you said, how do they racialize students or Latinx students?And maybe that was the intended question.
What are the, and also the systemic failures that you see, like how could bilingual, how is bilingual education working right now with, of course, like absolutely agree on the value of bilingual education, but also I'm curious about how you could see it being improved.
So, one of the things that I mentioned in the book is it's important to acknowledge that bilingual education, because it is in a racialized society and schools, like I mentioned in the beginning, are constructing ideas about what are race and racialization or racialized groups.
So, it is important for bilingual education to not just solely focus on language learning,
It's also important for bilingual education to incorporate an ethnic studies approach into their classrooms, because educators need to acknowledge that they are working towards, whether directly or indirectly, in ways that teach about race and racialized ideas.
So because that's already something that happens, whether we want to or not, we have to work intentionally to combat racist ideas.
Absolutely.And I think that's so important to think about, like, it's not just language in a vacuum and bringing in ethnic studies and bringing in critical understandings of race is so important.
And so I'm curious how I know in your book you advocate for teachers to really help students develop a critical consciousness about race and whether for bilingual teachers or, you know, teachers who teach in English only settings.
What advice would you give to them?
Sure.One of the things that I that would be at the top of my list is for them to connect with other teachers who are also motivated by this and want to improve their teaching about race.
So connecting with others, having a network of teachers who they can share ideas with or share lesson plans, that would be wonderful for teachers.And then also learning to take an inquiry stance to their teaching.I'm a big advocate of that.
And now what I mean by inquiry stance is It's an approach to learning how to teach that I learned from Marilyn Cochran Smith and Susan Lytle.
And it's an intentional and systematic approach to teachers looking into their own teaching and then working with other teachers in order to improve their teaching.So those are at the top of my list in terms of advice for teachers.
One thing that I would also have to share is that communities also have to support teachers and view teachers as professionals in order for teachers to be able to be supported in this work.Because as you know, there's lots of challenges
right now that teachers face when they do want to engage in teaching about race.
For example, there's this national conversation or national debate about whether schools should teach about race or not that sometimes gets attacked as critical race theory.That debate, I think, really is not the right debate to have.
It's the wrong debate.What we really need to start debating and start really focusing on is how to better teach about race in our schools.
here, here.Absolutely.I mean, I think for sure.
And I think that all the points that you just make, I definitely wholeheartedly agree with particularly really supporting teachers and supporting teachers to make this part of a conversation and to make, to help teachers take those risks and have an inquiry stance and to try things and to go deep.
Like it does need to be part of a bigger conversation too.And so I appreciate that.And I'm Wondering also with that, like thinking about your book, what do you hope educators and policymakers will take away after reading your book?
I'm hoping that educators and policymakers will take away from the book is that students are really interested in learning about race and any good teacher follows students' interests.
So it is important for teachers to be able to follow students' interests and to teach about race, because that's something that the students in my study really said that they really wanted to learn about.
And it was interesting because I noticed when I was observing in their classrooms, sometimes they weren't very engaged, sometimes they were bored.And then when I asked them in interviews about what they thought about their lessons, et cetera,
were very interested in learning about racial issues and other social justice issues in the class, in their schools, but that they felt bored still.
And then when I probed more into it, it was that they felt that the lessons were very repeated, that they kept hearing the same lessons over and over again since kindergarten, for example.So one of the things that I think
policy makers and other educators should take away from the book is that again, students are very interested in learning about race and we need in schools a way to think about how to progress their ideas from kindergarten all the way through high school.
So if we think about, for example, math, math is a subject that we We have learned how to progress it.
I mean, I'm not saying that it's perfect, but there has been some type of progression of ideas where you're first learning simple like addition, subtraction, etc.And then in high school, you would progress to algebra. or calculus, et cetera.
But in terms of learning about our racialized society, there's no such way, there's no such progression in terms of what are the ideas that are being presented.
And what happens is that students in high school are very bored with a lot of the lessons that are just staying on the level of, for example, don't judge people based on their looks or their skin color and be nice to
Racism is bad, like these type of very simple ideas that are very, very important for them when they are, for example, in kindergarten or elementary, but by the time they're in high school, students are really thirsty to learn more advanced ideas.
That's such a powerful way of putting it too.It's like having a scope and sequence that could be followed just like any other subject area to make sure that students' understanding is building upon, you know, what they need and what they've learned.
And I think that it's so powerful also hearing what students want.And it's not, you know, even if they seem maybe like checked out in a lesson or not into a lesson about race, it's probably not because they don't want to learn about race.
It's because, you know, it's done in a way that's not meeting their needs. or not meeting what they actually, you know, are ready to talk about or to discuss.
So going to the process of writing this book, I'm just curious about what that experience was like.I know you did research, you went and visited classrooms and observed.Can you talk to us about just the process of like how this book was created?
Wow, yeah.It was a very long process.I was thinking about it the other day, and I think it was like nine years from when I started it to when it was published.So it was a long process.So I don't really know where to start with that.
But I could share that it was very difficult because I really wanted the book to be accessible to educators.So my training and education as a scholar, as an academic, is to write academic papers for journals.
And writing a book was a big challenge for me because it was a different type of writing, a different style of writing.And I really worked on being more of a storyteller and having it be accessible to educators.
And that was a challenge for me that I'm hoping that educators and other readers will say that I was able to achieve.
Yes, absolutely.And that's great.
I mean, I think that's so interesting thinking about the different genres of writing and that you learned about the genre of writing a book and like the voice in which to write it and that worked for you and like resonated with your readers and just adjusting that.
I think it's interesting thinking about all the different ways that we might write and how that changes depending on our purposes and also just that we learn so much through the process, too. And congratulations.I mean, nine years, it's not short.
Thank you.Thank you.Yeah, no.And it's interesting.One other thing that I'd like to mention is that I didn't start thinking that this was the book I was going to write.
It was many, many years into the process that I thought, OK, this is what I want to explore in this book.So I really took the whole process of it.The engaging in the process really was what helped me develop the book also.
I love that.That's something I often say and I have had the experience of myself of like, you just have to start something and then figure it out through doing it.
Like you don't know the direction until you're in it and you go off with your best guess and you're like, this is something I'm curious about or want to investigate and then kind of see how it changes and takes form and leave some of it up to chance.
You know, I think sometimes as teachers, especially we can be like, this is exactly how I'm going to write this book. here's my chapter outline or whatever it might be.
And then you actually go in and do the research or create the book and it changes direction.So allowing it to kind of take on that different form.Yes, definitely.
So many of our teachers listening or educators listening to this podcast are thinking about moving beyond the classroom, still working in education, maybe pursuing some of their interests kind of like you did.Can you give any advice to them?
Sure.One thing is to think about your strengths and then also imagine that you may like something that you didn't and that you don't think that you like.And I'll give an example from my experience.
When I went into the PhD program, I actually wasn't an avid reader or writer at all.I didn't imagine myself as a writer.I understood that I had to write and had to read, but I didn't understand the extent of it.
choosing a different path or being outside of the classroom as like a classroom teacher, imagine, be open to the possibilities that even though you don't see yourself doing something, that perhaps you will learn to love it.
And in fact, that's what happened to me.I learned through the process of getting my PhD to learn, love to read and write.So I do now identify as a writer.
Beautiful.It's like we say to students too, right?Like so many students are like, I don't like math or like, I'm not a numbers person or something.
And I think we see that often in our students who are kind of identifying with things that they maybe aren't inclined to do naturally.And the same thing is true for us.So I love that of like leaving it open.
Like we can all be writers, we can all be numbers people, like whatever it might be.Right.But it takes a process and like staying open to that process.
Wonderful.Well, it's so nice to connect with you to hear more about your work.Can you tell people where they can connect with you?
Thank you.Yes.So if they'd like to sign up for my newsletter, please go to my website, Laura Chavez Moreno dot com.I'm also on Twitter or X and on LinkedIn.
And then if they'd like to check out the book, it is available in Harvard Press, also in Bookshop, in Barnes and Noble and in Amazon.
Wonderful.Well, thank you so much.And I can't wait to hear people's reactions to your book and look forward to seeing what's next for you as well.
Thank you.I appreciate it.Thank you.
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