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Episode: Will Republicans Reject Gaetz?

Author: The New York Times
Duration: 00:33:54

Episode Shownotes

President-elect Donald J. Trump has picked Representative Matt Gaetz to be his attorney general.Robert Draper, who covers domestic politics for The Times, discusses what the nomination reveals about Mr. Trump’s promise for retribution and how far Republicans might be willing to go to help him get it.Guest: Robert Draper, who

covers domestic politics for The New York Times.Background reading: The attorney general pick has set a new bar for in-your-face nominations.A vendetta over the congressional ethics investigation into Mr. Gaetz helped sink the last speaker. The new speaker has moved to quash the report.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Summary

In this episode of 'The Daily,' host Michael Barbaro and expert Robert Draper analyze President-elect Donald Trump's controversial nomination of Matt Gaetz as attorney general amidst ongoing ethics investigations. The discussion centers on Gaetz's loyalty to Trump and the implications of his nomination for the Department of Justice's independence. Key concerns include whether the Republican Party will support this choice and how it reflects Trump's retribution politics, raising questions about the GOP's ability to confront ethical concerns and its internal dynamics moving forward.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Will Republicans Reject Gaetz?) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:01 Speaker_05
From The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily.

00:00:10 Speaker_08
Trump appointment, and this is one that is probably going to surprise a lot of people.

00:00:16 Speaker_05
Last week, President-elect Donald Trump chose the firebrand congressman, Matt Gaetz, to be his attorney general.

00:00:23 Speaker_04
Blindsided. That's how many Senate Republicans feel by Donald Trump.

00:00:26 Speaker_05
I was shocked that he has been nominated. Trump's choice shocked Washington. It must be the worst nomination for a cabinet position in American history. And raised questions about whether the Senate would approve it.

00:00:40 Speaker_16
He is entitled to his nomination, but he's not entitled to a confirmation of any, literally any nomination.

00:00:46 Speaker_05
Today, my colleague Robert Draper on what the nomination reveals about Trump's promise for retribution and how far Republicans are willing to go to help him get it. It's Monday, November 18th. Robert, welcome to The Daily. Thanks for having me on.

00:01:20 Speaker_05
And happy Sunday.

00:01:22 Speaker_12
You as well.

00:01:23 Speaker_05
So President-elect Donald Trump announced a series of pretty controversial nominations for his cabinet last week. Chief among them was Matt Gaetz, the hard right member of Congress from Florida for attorney general.

00:01:38 Speaker_05
Gaetz is someone you've written a lot about, and we wanted to turn to you to talk about this pick of Gaetz and why it's so controversial.

00:01:45 Speaker_12
The pick is controversial, Sabrina, in part because of who Matt Gaetz is.

00:01:51 Speaker_12
He comes from what I suppose you could say is the performance art wing of the Republican Party, so he's very adroit at getting attention, but someone who does not have an accomplished track record as a legislator, so he would seem to be

00:02:06 Speaker_12
not an altogether serious pick and not a particularly qualified one as well. But he's also controversial as a pick because of the particular office, the Department of Justice.

00:02:18 Speaker_12
Of course, he would be America's chief law enforcement officer, which is interesting and ironic given that Gates himself has been defiant of the law, has had a trail of investigations following him, both on the federal level and within Congress.

00:02:35 Speaker_12
And on top of that, the attorney general has tended to be an office that operates more or less independently from the president.

00:02:42 Speaker_12
The attorney general will often do things that might even offend the president, might even investigate members of the administration. So to pick someone like Matt Gaetz, who is an unflagging loyalist,

00:02:54 Speaker_12
to Donald Trump would seem to suggest that the DOJ will, under Trump's presidency, become completely co-opted, so that a President Trump would himself be, in many ways, beyond the reach of the law. So all of this sets in motion

00:03:12 Speaker_12
a showdown between Trump and the Republican Party writ large, and a test of whether or not the legislative branch will offer any kind of constraints over that authority of his.

00:03:25 Speaker_05
Okay, so let's talk about who Matt Gaetz is and how he became such an important figure in Trump world. Tell me about him.

00:03:34 Speaker_12
Sure. Matt Gaetz is from northwestern Florida. He grew up in a town called Niceville. His father owned a chain of hospices that he ultimately sold in the early 2000s for something like $400 million. So wealthy family, very wealthy family.

00:03:52 Speaker_12
His father found a second career in politics. He ran for state Senate and won, ultimately becoming president of the Senate in the state of Florida.

00:04:02 Speaker_12
And the younger Gates, after being a high school debate champion, went on to college, then got a law degree and joined a commercial litigation firm.

00:04:12 Speaker_12
where he stayed for a couple of years, but then after that joined the New Family Business of Politics and ran for a vacant seat in the State House of Florida in 2010.

00:04:23 Speaker_05
So he pretty much immediately jumps into politics after being in this law practice.

00:04:27 Speaker_12
Yeah, that's right. And then Matt Gaetz ran for the first congressional district of Florida, his local congressional seat, which is very conservative, very dominated by a couple of military bases.

00:04:41 Speaker_12
And he ran, of course, at the same time that Donald Trump was running for president.

00:04:46 Speaker_05
So this was the 2016 cycle. This is when he gets to Congress.

00:04:49 Speaker_12
Yeah, that's right.

00:04:50 Speaker_12
Matt Gaetz was an early supporter of the former Florida governor, Jeb Bush, but it did not take terribly long before Bush was faltering in his debate performances and his fundraising and in every other way against this outsider candidate, Donald Trump.

00:05:06 Speaker_12
And Gaetz quickly threw in with him as well.

00:05:08 Speaker_05
And why did he throw his lot in with Trump?

00:05:11 Speaker_12
I think for a couple of reasons, Sabrina. The first was that he was punching a winning ticket, though Trump was an outsider. He dominated the Republican primaries and really was at the top of the polls.

00:05:22 Speaker_12
And so it was evident that the center of gravity within the Republican Party was moving towards Trump. Gates could clearly see that.

00:05:30 Speaker_12
But there was also a pugilistic streak to Trump that Gates himself as a kind of resident smart aleck in his high school as a debate nerd that he could very much identify with.

00:05:43 Speaker_12
And Matt Gates himself, a guy who was given to sarcasm, was given to insults, was given to be outside looking into the political establishment, found himself very much to be a kindred spirit of Trump. almost from the beginning of Trump's presidency.

00:06:02 Speaker_03
Joining us now, Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz.

00:06:04 Speaker_08
Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz.

00:06:06 Speaker_03
Congressman Matt Gaetz. Congressman Matt Gaetz represents the state of Florida. He joins us now. Congressman, thanks a lot for coming on.

00:06:11 Speaker_12
Matt Gaetz was on every conservative outlet praising everything that Trump did.

00:06:17 Speaker_16
I support this travel ban because I think it will enhance the security of Americans.

00:06:22 Speaker_12
from the Muslim ban.

00:06:24 Speaker_16
The foundation for Obamacare is crumbling, and that means we might be able to actually start on healthcare worthy of the great people in this country.

00:06:32 Speaker_12
To his attempts to repeal and replace Obamacare.

00:06:35 Speaker_16
I think if you just look at the bias on the Mueller team, these are not people in search of the truth. They are people in search of an impeachment charge.

00:06:45 Speaker_12
— Everyone was still trying to take their measure of Trump, and he did not have a deep bench of cheerleaders, but Matt Gaetz was unambiguously one of them.

00:06:55 Speaker_16
— Mr. President… — I think we won the day, sir.

00:07:00 Speaker_12
— Gates was frequently, as a result of this, called on the phone by Trump.

00:07:04 Speaker_12
President Trump would offer his thanks to Gates, and so it became this kind of self-licking ice cream cone, where Gates would say something, Trump would love it, Gates would want to please him even more, and on and on it went.

00:07:22 Speaker_05
So outside of these interviews and TV appearances, were there other ways that Gates was trying to show his loyalty?

00:07:29 Speaker_12
Yeah, I think the most flamboyant example occurred in 2019 when the House Intelligence Committee was having an impeachment inquiry.

00:07:40 Speaker_12
into Trump's conduct towards the President of Ukraine and his apparent attempt to get President Zelensky to dig up dirt on Trump's 2020 opponent, Joe Biden.

00:07:53 Speaker_12
So, the Intelligence Committee was having this impeachment inquiry in a secure facility in the basement of the Capitol. Classified information was being discussed. This was not something that just anybody could go into.

00:08:05 Speaker_12
That includes any person who has a congressperson's badge. But Matt Gaetz led a group of about two dozen Republican members of Congress to this facility, followed by a bunch of reporters.

00:08:20 Speaker_16
I'm gathered here with dozens of my congressional colleagues underground in the basement of the Capitol.

00:08:29 Speaker_12
Standing outside the doors of this conference room that was secure, Gaetz and the others proceeded to have an ad hoc press conference.

00:08:38 Speaker_16
Because if behind those doors they intend to overturn the results of an American presidential election, we want to know what's going on.

00:08:47 Speaker_12
In which Gaetz talked about how outrageous it was that this sham investigation was taking place against President Trump. And then at the very end,

00:08:57 Speaker_16
We're gonna go and see if we can get inside. So let's see if we can get in.

00:09:04 Speaker_12
We're going in. He said, OK, we're going in. And they barged into the facility, effectively bringing the proceedings to a halt. And the idea that any closed hearing would be disrupted by anybody was generally unheard of.

00:09:24 Speaker_12
But for an actual legislator, an actual member of Congress to storm in and start making accusations that This was some sort of deep state undertaking where they were hatching up damning testimony from scratch. It was without precedent.

00:09:41 Speaker_05
And it showed just how far he was willing to go for Trump, it sounds like.

00:09:46 Speaker_12
Yeah, that's right. And another thing that I think stands out about Gates's support of Trump was in the waning moments of Trump's presidency on January the 6th.

00:09:58 Speaker_12
when Matt Gaetz, far from expressing outrage that Trump had stirred up the mob that had stormed the Capitol, was questioning the composition of the mob itself and saying that these weren't Trump supporters, these must be left-wingers, these are members of Antifa.

00:10:15 Speaker_12
The far-left group that had been involved in protests, not all of them peaceful protests, during the summer of 2020, for example,

00:10:24 Speaker_05
And we should say was pretty much conclusively not part of the riot at the Capitol on January 6.

00:10:29 Speaker_12
That's right. There was zero evidence to suggest that what took place at the Capitol on January the 6th was instigated by or even that there were Antifa participants in it.

00:10:39 Speaker_12
But there was Gates from the get go basically saying these couldn't be Trump supporters.

00:10:44 Speaker_12
So, then in the days to follow the January the 6th riot, there were calls to impeach Donald Trump and while Gates did not say he should not be impeached and certainly did not say that he should be impeached, he did immediately denounce those people who denounced Donald Trump and called for his impeachment.

00:11:03 Speaker_12
Gates was one of the very first people to decry then House Republican conference chairwoman Liz Cheney calling for Trump's impeachment. And in fact, within a couple of weeks after Trump left office on January the 20th, I love Wyoming.

00:11:24 Speaker_12
There's Matt Gates on the steps of the capital of Wyoming.

00:11:29 Speaker_15
I'll confess to you, this is my first time in Wyoming. I've been here for about an hour, and I feel like I already know the place a lot better than your misguided representative, Liz Cheney.

00:11:41 Speaker_12
Leading a protest against the congresswoman representing the state of Wyoming, Liz Cheney, and saying that she's the one who needs to be pushed out.

00:11:51 Speaker_15
is that the establishment in both political parties have teamed up to screw our fellow Americans for generations.

00:12:03 Speaker_05
So this is a very aggressive going after Trump's enemies.

00:12:06 Speaker_12
Yes, that's right. And of course, it's Matt Gaetz being clever enough, recognizing that not all the facts are in.

00:12:12 Speaker_12
Not to say Donald Trump absolutely did nothing wrong, but instead to say that the people who are saying that Donald Trump did something wrong are themselves wrong.

00:12:22 Speaker_12
So it's a kind of bank shot of denouncing denouncers that is the sort of thing that the lawyerly Gaetz is a specialist in.

00:12:31 Speaker_05
So this is a guy who's time and time again shown that he's willing to defend Trump at all costs, which I guess answers the question of why Trump might want this guy as his attorney general.

00:12:42 Speaker_12
That's right. I mean, Gates was essentially setting himself up as the kind of person that Donald Trump needed. someone who had his bombastic combative style, someone who was an unflagging loyalist.

00:12:59 Speaker_12
That's the kind of guy Donald Trump would want to have around. But something else is happening too, which is that Matt Gaetz is landing in hot water, and as a result of that, needs Donald Trump, at least as much as Donald Trump needs Matt Gaetz.

00:13:33 Speaker_05
We'll be right back. So, Robert, you said that Gaetz needs Trump in some ways just as much as Trump needs Gaetz. Explain that.

00:13:51 Speaker_12
Yes. Matt Gaetz was in trouble with the federal authorities and had been really since 2017 or so when he was a freshman member of Congress. Here's what was taking place.

00:14:03 Speaker_12
Gaetz had become friends with a guy named Joel Greenberg, who was kind of a political gadfly with political ambitions of his own, was thinking of running for Congress.

00:14:12 Speaker_12
And he'd collected a bunch of lobbyists and other political muckety-mucks in Florida to hang out with. He would help throw these parties. And Gates began to cavort around with Greenberg and with Greenberg's friends to show up to these parties.

00:14:27 Speaker_12
There would be recreational drugs at these parties, there would be sex at these parties. And in addition to the lobbyists and elected officials, there would be women who were not of politics who were there.

00:14:40 Speaker_12
Some of them were from an escort service and at least one of them was under the age of 18. attracted the attention of the feds.

00:14:50 Speaker_12
When Joel Greenberg was nabbed by federal authorities for a variety of things, including having sex apparently with a 17-year-old girl, Greenberg pled guilty to this offense and right away began to supply them with information to the effect that Gates was doing the same thing.

00:15:12 Speaker_12
So, the feds began to conduct a federal inquiry into Gates, but ultimately they dropped the case. Why? They dropped it apparently because of two things.

00:15:23 Speaker_12
First, that they couldn't get enough information and that the information that they could get was coming from people

00:15:29 Speaker_12
who might not look so great before a jury, either because they were involved in the crimes themselves or had criminal records of their own. And so it just became a heavy lift.

00:15:40 Speaker_12
Now, this is informed speculation, Sabrina, because the reality is that the Department of Justice never announced, we are closing this case and we are closing this case for the following reasons.

00:15:51 Speaker_12
So this is the best we've been able to infer from justice's behavior, but close that they did.

00:15:56 Speaker_05
Okay, so the DOJ effectively shutters its case against Gates, but we don't really know whether there was a crime or what ultimately was the rub there. Was that the end of it?

00:16:06 Speaker_12
It was not the end of it, no. Congress picked up where the federal government left off.

00:16:12 Speaker_11
The major political headline, new trouble for Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz tonight. Already under federal investigation, now the House Ethics Committee is also investigating its own set of allegations.

00:16:22 Speaker_12
There is in Congress something called the House Ethics Committee, and it is a committee composed of members of both parties. It meets in secret to examine potential misconduct by sitting members of Congress.

00:16:37 Speaker_12
It has its own fact-gathering apparatus, and it's pretty deliberative. It takes a while for them to come around on their stuff. This is what happened then with the Gates matter.

00:16:46 Speaker_12
The House Ethics Committee began to take a look at it, reliant to some degree on the information that the Department of Justice had already gathered, but also not limited to that.

00:16:57 Speaker_07
The House Ethics Committee launching a bipartisan investigation examining allegations of sexual misconduct, illicit drug use.

00:17:05 Speaker_12
Because there were allegations that Gates had been on the floor of the House showing videos and still photographs on his iPhone of nude women.

00:17:17 Speaker_07
And whether Gates shared inappropriate images or videos on the House floor.

00:17:22 Speaker_12
Allegations as well that he was having a relationship with a member of his staff and as well allegations that he was using federal campaign funds for his own personal use.

00:17:35 Speaker_12
These were the kinds of things that were incoming for the Ethics Committee to consider.

00:17:42 Speaker_05
So a wide ranging investigation with some pretty sordid allegations. How does Gates respond to all of this? Does he speak out?

00:17:51 Speaker_03
Yes, yeah. So they're saying there is a 17 year old girl who you had a relationship with. Is that true? And who are they? Who is this girl? What are they talking about?

00:18:01 Speaker_16
The person doesn't exist. I have not had a relationship with a 17 year old. That is totally false.

00:18:06 Speaker_12
As Gates always does, he spoke out vociferously indicating not only that these charges were false, but that these charges were politically motivated, though this time not by Democrats so much as by Republican leaders with whom Gates had gotten crosswise, one of them in particular, Kevin McCarthy.

00:18:24 Speaker_05
And why did Gates think that McCarthy was behind this investigation?

00:18:28 Speaker_12
Those two had problems for a while. I mean, McCarthy had donated to Gaetz's first couple of congressional campaigns, but they never liked each other.

00:18:39 Speaker_12
McCarthy, sort of this glad hander, very much a member of the establishment, so not Gaetz's kind of guy to begin with, and Gaetz for that matter as this fly in the ointment who's always coming out against Republican leadership, not McCarthy's kind of guy.

00:18:55 Speaker_12
Then, when words surfaced that there was an investigation into Gates' behavior by the federal government, far from Kevin McCarthy saying, I'm sure that these are unwarranted investigations, he just said, Those are serious implications.

00:19:11 Speaker_00
If it comes out to be true, yes, we would remove him if that was the case. But right now, as Matt Gaetz says, it is not true and we don't have any information. So let's get all the information.

00:19:19 Speaker_12
I don't really have any comment. We'll just simply have to see what the federal government got to do. It was as lukewarm a kind of statement of support as could be imagined, and Gates filed that one away.

00:19:34 Speaker_12
And this all comes to a head in January of 2023 when Congress convenes to elect a speaker, which is a pro forma thing that usually lasts a couple of hours.

00:19:45 Speaker_14
So we are now in a situation where this Congress will make history. We will have at least one more vote to see who the next speaker will be in the 118th Congress.

00:19:54 Speaker_12
But in this case became this protracted five-day melodrama.

00:19:58 Speaker_06
Six votes later and the Republican majority is still scrambling to pick someone, anyone to serve as Speaker of the House.

00:20:05 Speaker_12
And why was this the case? Because Matt Gaetz didn't like Kevin McCarthy.

00:20:09 Speaker_16
After three days and hundreds of votes cast, the House has still not elected a Speaker.

00:20:14 Speaker_12
and was determined, if not to completely stop McCarthy from becoming Speaker, then to at least drag it out.

00:20:20 Speaker_04
Four days in, 12th round of voting, and still no Speaker of the House.

00:20:24 Speaker_03
On Tuesday, Kevin McCarthy tried to get elected Speaker, but he lost three times. But then on Wednesday... lost three more times.

00:20:31 Speaker_12
It was really, really melodramatic and it played out on national television where Gates at one point was nearly assaulted by a Republican member of Congress, Mike Rogers, who was a McCarthy ally. — I hear someone saying, stay civil.

00:20:53 Speaker_12
— Where Gates, at various junctures— — I'm nominating Jim Jordan. — Nominated people, including Donald Trump, to be the Speaker instead of McCarthy.

00:21:04 Speaker_16
— Mr. Speaker, my friend from Oklahoma says that my colleagues and I who don't support Kevin McCarthy would plunge the House and the country into chaos. Chaos is Speaker McCarthy.

00:21:17 Speaker_12
And after successive balloting, McCarthy would go into a room with groups of Republicans and they would manage to get him to agree on this or that thing.

00:21:27 Speaker_12
For example, the allowance of a single member of Congress to call for a snap vote, known as a motion to vacate.

00:21:34 Speaker_02
As one Democrat put it, it's like they'll have a spokesperson but not an actual speaker in the House.

00:21:40 Speaker_12
So he was coming in as, like, really the weakest speaker imaginable.

00:21:45 Speaker_12
Meanwhile, there's Gates clearly enjoying this theater, and even as McCarthy, by the end of it all, at the end of the five-day stretch, emerges victorious, really the triumph is as much Matt Gates' as anyone else's.

00:22:02 Speaker_05
Yeah, what I really remember about that whole episode between Gates and McCarthy was just the way that Gates went about it. Like, he withheld his vote for McCarthy over the speakership in this, like, very ostentatious way.

00:22:15 Speaker_05
It's like he was, you know, humiliating him almost. Like, it was this incredible act of dominance, like this power move against him.

00:22:24 Speaker_12
That's right. And it was a total Trump move.

00:22:26 Speaker_05
Yeah.

00:22:26 Speaker_12
And it was the kind of thing that, you know, Trump would remember as this is a guy, you know, who's got cojones. This is a guy who will stand up to everyone.

00:22:37 Speaker_05
So what became of the ethics investigation in the end?

00:22:41 Speaker_12
Well, it moved slowly, slowly because, you know, Gates continued effectively to delay it by responding only at the last minute to inquiries and then doing so with the usual bombast, being non-responsive.

00:22:55 Speaker_12
And the Ethics Committee was having some difficulty getting traction, getting further information. So it had produced a report roughly in late July, I believe is when it did at least the best that we can tell.

00:23:09 Speaker_12
But there are rules in the House that govern when you can release a negative ethics report, as this one was. You can't do it close to an election. So Gates had a primary in August. They couldn't do it near then.

00:23:21 Speaker_12
And then Gates was facing a general election in November, so they couldn't do it then. So they kept missing all of these windows, and now suddenly it is after the election.

00:23:30 Speaker_12
Trump is elected president the Republicans regain control of the Senate continue to have control over the house and Meanwhile, there is this Ethics Committee report that's been sitting there that's understood to be Highly negative and therefore very damaging involving criminal charges that could almost certainly lead to Gates's expulsion from Congress

00:23:57 Speaker_05
Wow, so there's that bomb just kind of sitting there. What happens with it?

00:24:02 Speaker_12
Well, what happens with it is that Donald Trump, before this can be released. Today, major surprises among Donald Trump's latest picks to fill his cabinet, including Matt Gaetz, a fierce and loyal defender of Mr. Trump in Congress.

00:24:16 Speaker_12
Now his choice to become the next attorney general. Decides on Wednesday that he wants Matt Gaetz to be his attorney general.

00:24:24 Speaker_13
Trump today describing one of his strongest defenders as a quote, deeply gifted and tenacious attorney who will end the partisan weaponization of our justice system.

00:24:33 Speaker_12
And he makes this announcement and within a matter of hours, Gates resigns from the House of Representatives. He resigns.

00:24:40 Speaker_12
Yeah, he resigns, and in so doing, he's no longer a member of the House, and an ethics committee investigation into a House member is no longer pertinent.

00:24:50 Speaker_12
You can't, in other words, release information about someone who's no longer a member of Congress. So it would seem, then, that the ethics report dies the death.

00:25:02 Speaker_05
So the timing is quite interesting, right? Gates is about to be the subject of this potentially hugely damaging report, could very well end his career.

00:25:11 Speaker_05
And then at this critical hour for Gates, Trump names him to the position that allows him to resign from the House, effectively stopping the report and becoming potentially the top law enforcement agent in the country, a role that beyond all of this potential legal trouble he seems to be pretty unqualified for.

00:25:30 Speaker_12
Yeah, I mean, it's this remarkable zero-sum moment, you know, where he goes from a guy of maximum exposure, potentially even criminal exposure, since after all, the feds did not, you know, find him not guilty. They didn't decide he was innocent.

00:25:45 Speaker_12
They just decided not to pursue it anymore. And so if all of these allegations surface, he's expelled from Congress, then he's himself criminally vulnerable.

00:25:54 Speaker_12
He goes from that to now being the nominee to be the chief law enforcement officer in the land.

00:26:01 Speaker_12
And so, yeah, it's this moment where a guy goes from really, really being in a deep, dark place to a guy who may be sitting on top of the world, referring to Matt Gaetz.

00:26:10 Speaker_05
And why do you think it is that Trump named him? Like, is it because, you know, having him on the hook, so to speak, means he would just do his bidding?

00:26:21 Speaker_12
I don't think it's that, Sabrina. I don't think that he's doing it to do a solid for Gaetz or to own Gaetz. I think that Gaetz's loyalty to Trump is not what's at issue here. That's always been unquestioned.

00:26:33 Speaker_12
It's instead an external signal that Trump is sending, first of all, that he will select exactly who he wants to select. He knows how audacious a choice this is, and he doesn't care.

00:26:45 Speaker_12
And secondly, for this particular position, for the Department of Justice, to have at the top of it a Matt Gaetz sends a signal that yes, I do mean good on what I said during the campaign, that I, Donald Trump, will be your, his voters, retribution.

00:27:01 Speaker_12
That I will use the Department of Justice in exactly the way that you would imagine it would be used if Matt Gaetz were at the top of it. It will be used as a weapon.

00:27:11 Speaker_12
It will be used as the spear point to ward off any kind of investigations into the president by the FBI or by the opposition, and that it will be used as a means of attack against Trump's opponents, be they a sitting senator like Adam Schiff, who'd been the head of the Intelligence Committee and had brought the first impeachment inquiry,

00:27:34 Speaker_12
a former member of Congress, Liz Cheney, who became his most vocal Republican opponent, members of the press, or any number of individuals.

00:27:45 Speaker_12
Matt Gaetz will be at the very top of a Department of Justice that will be the kind of justice that Donald Trump wants justice to mean. He will redefine the concept of justice through the personage of Gaetz as his attack dog.

00:28:05 Speaker_05
But of course, there is a Senate confirmation process for his appointment. So what are the senators saying about his nomination?

00:28:13 Speaker_08
This one was not on my paper.

00:28:15 Speaker_01
Elections have consequences. He chose Matt Gaetz. Matt will come before the committee and he will be asked hard questions and we'll see how he does.

00:28:23 Speaker_12
Well, there's been a sort of collective groan and or statements of shock.

00:28:27 Speaker_10
Look, I barely know Gates. All I know is he likes picking fights on social media. He'll have to deal with that in committees. But I don't know his background. I'm going to look at it and give him a fair hearing.

00:28:36 Speaker_09
I think there should not be any limitation on the Senate Judiciary Committee's investigation, including whatever the House Ethics Committee has generated.

00:28:45 Speaker_12
None of them has come right out and said that they would oppose it, but there's clearly some friction and clearly some kind of visceral opposition. Now, there's been some talk about the possibility of recess appointments.

00:29:00 Speaker_12
which would essentially mean the Senate Majority Leader calling a 10-day recess and letting Trump push these nominations through without a confirmation.

00:29:11 Speaker_12
But right now, that seems pretty unlikely, and I think that what's much more likely is that this will go to an actual vote.

00:29:19 Speaker_05
And what if this ethics report does end up somehow getting out, like either leaked or actually released? I would imagine there would be a pretty big public outcry. It's explosive. Do we think Trump might blink and say, never mind?

00:29:34 Speaker_12
It seems really unlikely that Trump is going to be in any way concerned by the release of the report, or for that matter, the contents of the report. I think he's been fully briefed on what likely is in it. And Trump knows who Gates is.

00:29:50 Speaker_12
I don't think he will be in the least bit cowed by the prospect of unseemly contents. I think he's expecting it. I think that they'll essentially describe it as fake news by political opponents of Gates's.

00:30:04 Speaker_05
So we're talking on Sunday morning. As of now, it seems likely that this is actually heading to a confirmation hearing in a Republican controlled Senate, where on the one hand, Gates has a lot of enemies.

00:30:18 Speaker_05
But on the other, this group of senators is pretty afraid of crossing Trump. So this sets up a pretty interesting showdown.

00:30:26 Speaker_12
It certainly does, and because it is an audacious move for Trump to pick someone who is not only unqualified for the job, it would seem, who not only is so disliked by members of his own party, but also is so encumbered.

00:30:43 Speaker_12
And for Trump to basically be saying to the Senate, yeah, I know he's got all those problems. I don't care. Confirm him anyway, is a very early test of just how willing the Republican Party is to offer any kind of check on the president-elect.

00:31:06 Speaker_12
It cannot be emphasized enough, Sabrina, that Republicans have been paying close attention over the years to what's happened to those Republicans who have attempted to thwart Trump's will, prominently Liz Cheney.

00:31:20 Speaker_12
And none of them wants to suffer the Liz Cheney treatment. So they recognize that standing up to Trump not only carries costs in terms of a basic discomfort, but really can be a career-ending proposition.

00:31:34 Speaker_12
And so we'll see whether Republicans are willing to say, look, we'll give you all of these other nominations. This is just a bridge too far. Or if they, in essence, say the bridge too far is also a bridge that we're going to be willing to give you.

00:32:00 Speaker_05
Robert, thank you.

00:32:02 Speaker_12
It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Sabrina.

00:32:14 Speaker_05
We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today. On Sunday, for the first time, President Biden gave Ukraine permission to use American long-range missiles to hit targets inside Russia.

00:32:33 Speaker_05
The weapons are likely to be employed against Russian and North Korean troops in defense of Ukrainian forces in the Kursk region of Western Russia, an area that Ukraine invaded in a surprise move last August.

00:32:46 Speaker_05
Biden's authorization was a major change in U.S. policy and comes just two months before President-elect Donald Trump takes office. Trump has vowed to limit support for Ukraine.

00:33:04 Speaker_05
Today's episode was produced by Will Reed, Michael Simon-Johnson, Mouj Zadeh, and Mary Wilson. It was edited by Devin Taylor and Michael Benoit.

00:33:15 Speaker_05
Contains original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baitoub, Diane Wong, and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Katie Edmondson. That's it for The Daily.

00:33:45 Speaker_05
I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow.