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Episode: Wadey’s Wittle Phiwosophy Hour (Part 2)

Author: Distractible
Duration: 01:01:31

Episode Shownotes

Phiwosopher Wade has weturned with an even warger question to expwore: Do we have fwee will? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary

In "Wadey’s Wittle Phiwosophy Hour (Part 2)" from the Distractible podcast, hosts Wade, Mark, and Bob engage in a humorous yet profound examination of free will. They explore the intricate balance between individual agency and determinism, discussing personal beliefs and philosophical theories. Wade advocates for the existence of free will, emphasizing its impact on personal growth, while contrasting this view with hard determinism and compatibilism. The episode cleverly intertwines personal anecdotes and scientific insights, making a complex topic accessible and engaging.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Wadey’s Wittle Phiwosophy Hour (Part 2)) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_02
This episode is brought to you by Indiana Jones and the Great Circle. Uncover one of history's greatest mysteries in Indiana Jones and the Great Circle. A first-person single-player video game set between Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Last Crusade.

00:00:12 Speaker_03
The year is 1937. Sinister forces are scouring the globe for the secret to an ancient power, and only one person can stop them.

00:00:19 Speaker_01
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00:00:36 Speaker_01
Rated T for Teen. Copyright Trademark 2024. Lucasfilm Limited. All rights reserved.

00:00:40 Speaker_00
Good evening, gentle listener, and welcome to Distractible! This episode, Waymarking Wade summons the Jonas Brothers, hates Anarby Cards, and asks his pals if they have free willies.

00:00:53 Speaker_00
Machine-like Mark is edging his slumber and equatiously lectures on black holes. Bedouin Bob debuffs his ride, rejects determinism, and actively advocates for individual agency. From the will of God to Westworld, Yes!

00:01:12 Speaker_00
It's time for... Now sit back and prepare to be distracted and enjoy the show.

00:01:24 Speaker_04
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Distractible. I'm today's host, Wade, and welcome to the show where there are three of us, one of us hosts, the other two compete for points.

00:01:33 Speaker_04
Whoever has the most points, rather, at the end hosts the next episode. Joined, as always, by my friends and co-hosts, Bob and Mark. Hello.

00:01:40 Speaker_02
Hi. I'm sitting down. I believe that standing is against God. Yes, finally! A point.

00:01:50 Speaker_01
I am choosing to lose all my hair. I believe that having hair is against God. Huh? Huh?

00:01:59 Speaker_04
You get a bald point.

00:02:00 Speaker_01
All right. Never thought I'd get a bald point.

00:02:03 Speaker_02
Not until I went bald anyway. If you don't, if all your hair doesn't fall out in the next five seconds, I don't think that point should count. Editors, no one ever will tell us apart now. How you guys doing? Been been on that edge of sleep grind.

00:02:17 Speaker_02
You know how it be?

00:02:18 Speaker_04
No, I never worked on it. All right. Well, well, I watched it. I don't I don't want to spoil it. Like I do want to spoil it, but I'm not going to. But I watched it and I enjoyed it and want more of it. Well, you got to follow the plan.

00:02:30 Speaker_04
And there was that one scene that I can't talk about and won't.

00:02:34 Speaker_05
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

00:02:35 Speaker_04
And then what happened? Wish I could say. There's no reason why I actually can't. I'm just trying to be respectful to people who haven't seen it yet. But hopefully if you watch this podcast, you've already seen it.

00:02:45 Speaker_02
Yeah, who hasn't seen it yet? Unless they're outside the U.S. and then they're shit out of luck.

00:02:48 Speaker_04
Everyone who watches this podcast supports all three of us in all of our endeavors individually and together. So I know they've all watched it already.

00:02:55 Speaker_01
Well, they better. I don't even have any endeavors. So there's a lot of extra bandwidth there to support you guys. You post YouTube video. That's not an endeavor. It's kind of an endeavor. That's a pretty low key endeavor.

00:03:07 Speaker_01
I endeavor to continue doing that.

00:03:09 Speaker_04
The bar doesn't have to be long to be a bar. That's true. I just sleep good. People like and popular. I saw it got up. I saw it as high as number four on the charts. Maybe got higher.

00:03:18 Speaker_02
Yeah, it was got to number four and then all the through the weekend it floated at five. So that's that's pretty good sustenance, in my opinion.

00:03:25 Speaker_04
Yeah, there's a lot of things to watch. And that one stayed pretty high for probably still is up there.

00:03:30 Speaker_02
But yeah, I think it's eight today. But this is like, by the time people hear this, it'll probably be at number one.

00:03:36 Speaker_02
if it gets the number one marks already naked i mean i'm holding that in the back pocket just in case i need it because i do have i do have the the photos of what was supposed to be the third only fans drop i'm holding on to that just in case i need to bust out one last incentive to get it out there so uh

00:03:55 Speaker_02
Well, we can make distractible number one again. Oh, man, dude, I'm busy. All right. I can only focus on, you know, a task switching. It's an ADHD thing. I can't. I can't. How dare you ask me?

00:04:07 Speaker_01
I think how good it would be for Edge of Sleep if distractible was the number one podcast, though. That'd be great. It would be incredible. There's probably a lot of crossover between platforms.

00:04:20 Speaker_01
Everyone knows jumping platform to platform is what viewers do best.

00:04:23 Speaker_04
Nobody has ever been against following us from one platform to the next.

00:04:26 Speaker_01
No, never. They love that. That's maybe their favorite thing we do.

00:04:31 Speaker_04
Anything new, anything exciting going on in your lives other than obviously Edge of Sleep being out? That's pretty big.

00:04:36 Speaker_01
Well, so I talked about it on this a fair amount, multiple times. And you know, all that work I did on the Subaru and I was updating people and it's all undone now.

00:04:46 Speaker_01
Turns out it's way easier to undo all that shit than it was to do it in the first place. Oh cool. I spent multiple long days laying on my back under the car and doing yesterday.

00:04:57 Speaker_01
I undid 95% of everything and the car is almost completely back to stock and I'm going to sell it. I thought you were going to say the doors are off the hoods on the roof.

00:05:07 Speaker_04
The bumpers on the street pants are long gone.

00:05:11 Speaker_01
It is a Subaru, so it's not long until it does that to itself. But for everyone ever I've mentioned in passing, I'm selling the car. Yes, I'm selling the car. Sorry everybody.

00:05:19 Speaker_01
I'm the only one in the entire house and extended family that both Mandy and I have that can drive stick shift.

00:05:25 Speaker_01
It just didn't make sense for me to have a car that no one else could drive like in case there's an emergency or if two people want to go to two separate places or you know, so I still have a fun car, but it's more of a family car now.

00:05:39 Speaker_04
So if you want Bob's car, come to Bob's auction and you can bid it up and pay 10 times the amount he paid for it.

00:05:47 Speaker_01
I mean, yeah, I guess. What a deal. Mark was in there once. So, you know, all three of us were in there. I got cool footage of it. You can use that on the selling page.

00:05:57 Speaker_00
There he is.

00:06:08 Speaker_01
And we almost bought a theater from that car. We almost did. Do you think it's still on sale? God, I hope so. Maybe the auction fell through. Maybe it's back on the market. Maybe our time hasn't passed.

00:06:17 Speaker_02
I wonder if the owner, whoever bought InVision afterwards, figured out that I was only there to scout out to see if they were going to go to business.

00:06:27 Speaker_04
They're our number one fan. We broke their hearts. Subaru, you want it. It might be for sale someday, and you probably won't get it. It is will be and probably not. Other news, you guys want to know something random?

00:06:40 Speaker_04
I was in Virginia a while back, like back in, I think, July with Bird and some friends. I was playing a game, Tyler actually, Hanabi, which I think I've talked about. It's like a firework building game. You get fireworks. You try to build them up.

00:06:53 Speaker_04
Super addicted. Love it. They have a tile version, which is the version I played originally, and it does not exist. I cannot find it. I want it so bad, and I cannot find it. Their websites are like, you want the tile version? It's right here. Click buy it.

00:07:07 Speaker_04
You can buy it. I click it, and they're like, give us your email. Well, let's look at your payment info. Hey, dude, silliest thing. It's actually out of stock. Happened like four times. I'm so sorry. But everyone's got the cards. The cards can blow.

00:07:21 Speaker_04
They suck. Hanabi cards are like the worst thing I've ever played in my life. Fucking hate it. The tiles? God tier. Like, I would sacrifice my firstborn for the tiles. Cards? No.

00:07:32 Speaker_02
What else would you sacrifice your firstborn for? I don't have one because I already sacrificed them. Okay, but if you didn't, yeah. Bob's Subaru, would you sacrifice for that? Oh, yeah. A car? I don't have one of those.

00:07:42 Speaker_04
Uh, some meat?

00:07:43 Speaker_01
Yeah, somehow you still don't have a car. Crazy how that happens.

00:07:46 Speaker_04
Free lunch? But for cards? No, not for the cards. Hanabi cards, bottom, regret. They're terrible. Great game. Why are the- the cards shouldn't exist. Go back to the top. Please. I need the tiles. They don't exist. Anyway, that's my rant.

00:07:58 Speaker_04
That's one of the greatest games I've ever played, and that's the difference between just a physical tile, because of the ways you need to keep track of what's on the tiles, because you can't see your own tiles, so you have to play based on clues that people give you.

00:08:09 Speaker_04
You need to be able to maneuver them a little bit, and whenever you're just holding cards in your hand, it's like, how do I keep track of all these pieces of information whenever I can't really maneuver much?

00:08:17 Speaker_04
I can flip a card sideways, I guess, but I don't know. Anyway, I digress. Hanabi, if you're watching this, you're an MVP. Play like one. You signed that big contract. You got the tiles out there. Let's see it.

00:08:29 Speaker_04
It's been a few years since you've been at your peak. I believe in you.

00:08:32 Speaker_01
I'm trying to think of snarky stuff to say about this, but honestly, I appreciate your enthusiasm and I hope that someday you get the tiles that you deserve.

00:08:40 Speaker_04
It's at the point where I'm trying to figure out if I can just buy like dominoes or something like that.

00:08:45 Speaker_04
And then it's like, okay, I need to get like a sticker printing set and just print my own stickers, put them over some dominoes and just make my own set.

00:08:53 Speaker_04
And it's like, God, this is so much more complicated than if I could just find the thing that they have sold twice that apparently a lot of people online are looking for and can't seem to... Why doesn't it exist anymore? Everyone wants it!

00:09:04 Speaker_04
At least five people have gone to every website and commented the same thing.

00:09:08 Speaker_02
Actually, you know, it is probably just production is a bit difficult. Anytime you're making a physical product, it's always going to be a bit harder than anything else. So, I mean, you can't really fault it, right? No, I fault it. I want it. Give me.

00:09:21 Speaker_01
Yeah, you can't really fault it.

00:09:23 Speaker_04
I'm a consumerism who lives under capitalism. I need it and I want it now. All right. Good small talk. I'm going to give myself a point there.

00:09:32 Speaker_01
That was an easy point.

00:09:33 Speaker_04
I put some passion in there. You know, I'm gonna get a passion point. Oh, are we only giving passion points out? I didn't say that. But let me tell you, passion of the Christ is blowing you guys out of the water. A lot of passion in that one.

00:09:45 Speaker_04
Passion of the Christ 2, you mean? Passion of the Christ 2 fast 2 furious. You mean 9 fast 9 furious? Yeah, Passion of the Christ. Resurrection. It's coming. I remember he came back and he was like, dudes, that sucked. And then we crucified him again.

00:10:00 Speaker_04
It's kind of a guns blazing thing. I hope they have like a Passion 2 ginger dead man crossover.

00:10:06 Speaker_01
I can't not think of the I think it's a family guy joke where it's it's it's a trailer for passion too but then it's the guy from rush hour not Jackie Chan but the other guy what the hell is this Chris Tucker and it's him and Jesus and they're like behind cover and the bullets are flying and Jesus holds up a gun and is like do you know how to use one of these and Chris Tucker holds up a blunt and goes do you know how to use one of these

00:10:36 Speaker_02
If it's not that movie, I don't wanna see it. Yeah, well, I think we can rest assured. In the age of AI, if it's not that movie now, it will be that movie.

00:10:45 Speaker_04
I think South Park did a thing like that years and years ago where, like, Jesus jumps out and, like, takes bullets to protect Santa Claus or something.

00:10:52 Speaker_01
Oh, man, I just have to do this. Oh, yeah, look at this.

00:10:56 Speaker_04
It's so weird that you just had to do that right then. Oh, yeah, yeah, hold on, hold on.

00:11:02 Speaker_04
He's smelling me flexing my nostril muscles, you know, no one ever really shows those up Yeah, this is the greatest beginning of an episode ever So some of you have been asking and by that I mean one very consistent person.

00:11:13 Speaker_04
This is for you Wade's philosophy corner is back Who is who has been asking that my alt account? It's been a while since I've made myself look really smart.

00:11:26 Speaker_04
And so I decided to put that off for another week and dive into a topic I didn't really spend a lot of time studying in philosophy, but one that I think is interesting and that you boys might have some input on.

00:11:36 Speaker_04
And maybe this will be a really short episode because you guys will just agree. Maybe you'll surprise me. Maybe you'll have your own takes. But the question we'll be debating today is, do we have free will?

00:11:47 Speaker_04
And I've got some info from smarter people than us.

00:11:51 Speaker_02
Oh, I thought you got some info from on high.

00:11:54 Speaker_04
I got Jesus in my left ear, Buddha in the right. And I'm going to be listening to all gods, uppercase and lowercase G's. Now, I do have like, you know, some some spark notes, basically, of actual moral theories.

00:12:08 Speaker_04
I was diving in before we started today to read up on this a bit. So I've got some info there, but before I dive into things I've looked up, I'm just curious what your guys' intuition is.

00:12:18 Speaker_04
What you think, why you think, or we can think through it, talk through it, debate. Is there free will? I think. Therefore you are. Huh? You think, therefore you are.

00:12:28 Speaker_02
Oh, okay. You think, yeah, that's what I was going for. Thank you, I'll take my points. No, no, no. I think I'll give me the points. But I think it's one of those questions. It's very I mean, this is obviously philosophy, right?

00:12:42 Speaker_02
And moral theories and whatnot. It's like, it's very hard to end the debate, because there is like what we talked about last time, there is

00:12:51 Speaker_02
really no way to objectively prove it because the objective point of view is kind of beyond our ability to comprehend, you would need to have a bird's eye view of the branching path of your life.

00:13:05 Speaker_02
If that exists, if you don't have free will, then it's not a branching path. But you would need to have like that overview effect of the full course of it. And it's a perspective that we as people can't ever really achieve, because we can only like

00:13:19 Speaker_02
kind of predict the future and then look into the past, right? I'm a believer of that we have free will. And I probably as we continue to talk about, I'll probably push that a bit further.

00:13:30 Speaker_02
But it's it's also just because I kind of ascribe to that belief, just because it helps me. And I mean, a lot of belief based systems come from a perspective of you, you rally under the banner that you you feel personally helps you.

00:13:46 Speaker_02
It helps me move forward in my life to believe that there is free will because that coincides with what I want to believe, right? And that's driven by the wants that I have in my life in general.

00:14:00 Speaker_02
So by wanting there to be free will and opposing the idea that there isn't, it helps align me with going forward and moving forward with my life, whether or not that's a true statement is whatever.

00:14:13 Speaker_02
And I can and probably will eventually defend why I think it is. But at the end of the day, on a more objective standpoint, it's because it helps me.

00:14:22 Speaker_04
Okay, Bob, what's your initial reaction to the question?

00:14:25 Speaker_01
Hmm. It's douchey, but I'm going to stick with it. I love it. This is often my reaction to questions like this. My initial thought is, well, what exactly do we mean by free will? If we're going to address the idea of whether or not we have free will?

00:14:40 Speaker_01
Obviously, we live in a universe where there are seem to be like universal physical laws. Physics is kind of telling us that there are probably laws that They're still trying to work them all out. We don't understand how it works.

00:14:54 Speaker_01
But so if we do live in a world where physical laws are consistent, that basically means we live in a deterministic world, right? If you could accurately simulate down to the minutest of details that that we can't even perceive right now, the world.

00:15:11 Speaker_01
Theoretically, you could figure out what someone might decide because you could have a model of their brain and there are physical rules about how electronic impulses travel and how neurons work and how things in the brain interact.

00:15:23 Speaker_01
Like, is that free will? Or is the free will the fact that humans, even if our thoughts may be dictated or influenced by things that are not conscious choices, not conscious free will,

00:15:36 Speaker_01
Is the free will the part of how we choose to act and react to whatever our thoughts are, whatever our unconscious motivations are, whatever stimuli we get from outside of our bodies? And that's kind of where I fall. What we think may not

00:15:53 Speaker_01
be completely conscious. You might not be able to consciously control how you react to things based on your life experience.

00:15:59 Speaker_01
You might not be able to consciously choose what you think or what you want to do, but you do get to choose when you do or do not do things, when you do or do not act on thoughts that you have. So I think it's

00:16:13 Speaker_01
An important distinction, maybe this is reductive, but I feel like one of the things that the free will question, people who might think that or might want to say that we don't have free will like to use that as like, well, then we're not responsible, are we?

00:16:26 Speaker_01
If I don't have, you know, if I can prove we don't have free will, then no one's morally responsible for what they do. Are they? Because it's not their choice that they did that.

00:16:33 Speaker_01
They were made to do that by whatever thing, by God or the laws of physics or whatever, because we all have a fate or destiny. But I don't personally believe that. I kind of with you, Mark, it's what helps me get through the day.

00:16:45 Speaker_01
It's the idea that at least part of the world I have agency over. And I feel like even if someone might want to say that our thoughts are dictated or predetermined in some way,

00:16:56 Speaker_01
What you actually do in the world to other humans, other living things, what you actually do or do not do is definitely still dictated by your free will. Thus, you are morally responsible for your actions, whether or not, you know.

00:17:11 Speaker_01
Maybe some people have thoughts that they can't get rid of that are bad. Universally, everyone would agree that's a bad thought. You should not act on that. But if you don't act on it, it's just a thought. It's not a real thing.

00:17:24 Speaker_01
And so there's a line there that I feel like is hard to define clearly, but I can kind of see it in my own head. And that's what that's what helps me feel like I have agency, even in a deterministic physical world.

00:17:37 Speaker_02
You know, it's funny you mentioned the the thought experiment, like if you were able to map out every single thing and analyze every single particle in the universe, you'd be able to do it. I always think of that.

00:17:47 Speaker_02
And then I think of like the double slit experiment, which is where they fired an electron through two slits and they were able to do it one at a time. And, you know, it created a wave pattern.

00:17:54 Speaker_02
and they were like okay but how and then they observed it or they took a measurement of which one it was going through and that changed the outcome to be just two slits so it changed from being a wave formation to like a very deterministic it picks one or the other because we were looking at which one it goes through and it was like one or the other

00:18:13 Speaker_02
And so I imagine a similar thing would happen if you tried to map out every single particle in the universe, the moment you do, they would change.

00:18:21 Speaker_02
And so I think it's almost a fallacy to believe that we it's a fallacy to believe we ever could map out every particle in the universe, you'd have to have measurements on every single particle in the universe. And that's actually impossible.

00:18:32 Speaker_02
There is no way to do that. The only way that that could ever occur is if all of the particles in the universe were to collapse down

00:18:39 Speaker_02
into a singular black hole because they've talked about this before of like um there's been videos and you know Kurtzgesagt made a video and there's deeper more accurate information out there about it but accurate is only as far as our theories on how black holes work even go um but what that does is in a way because of our current understanding of light and and matter the moment that it crosses the event horizon of there

00:19:01 Speaker_02
It's kind of like that particle obviously gets collapsed into the black hole, whether it's a singularity or not. But once it crosses there, it can never come back as it was. It's an effectively destroying the information of what that is.

00:19:15 Speaker_02
That's why it breaks physics a little bit, because it's just there's like laws of conservation of energy and information. because information is just basically the the arrangement of those particles.

00:19:26 Speaker_02
And it kind of writes all that information on the surface of the event horizon.

00:19:30 Speaker_02
Theoretically, it doesn't literally, it's just like, you know, hypothetically, or looking at it in an abstract way, it writes it, but that determines, okay, this particle is this forever, and therefore, it will never change.

00:19:40 Speaker_02
And therefore, it never moves. And therefore, it's effectively dead. And so I think like with life and the universe in a greater capacity,

00:19:48 Speaker_02
as it is right now, and in a constant flux state, that's probably a very poorly explained and poorly accurate way of scientifically going like there probably is free will because you know, it's really hard for to determine anything.

00:20:01 Speaker_02
And the moment you observe anything, it kind of changes. And things are so complex that we could never observe anything. So I'm like, yeah, probably free will up until it all ends, because that's the only not free thing we have.

00:20:11 Speaker_04
Paul, I want to go back to ask you a couple of questions because you seemed very... Because what I said was more interesting.

00:20:16 Speaker_01
Yeah, got it. Thank you.

00:20:17 Speaker_04
Well, you kind of U-turned on a bit because it seemed like at first you were going very deterministic as far as like that's the word you used and which is actually a moral theory, determinism.

00:20:27 Speaker_04
But you kind of like at the end, you're like, well, I don't want to let people off the hook for the decisions they make, the actions they do.

00:20:33 Speaker_04
So if they're going to be held accountability, there has to be some kind of free will, I think is where you ended. So are you team free will or are you team determinism or something else?

00:20:41 Speaker_01
kind of what Mark just said, I guess. I don't know if there's a definitive way to say if the universe is or is not deterministic.

00:20:48 Speaker_01
To me, it seems likely that it is, but also to Mark's point of where when you're observing something changes the nature of the thing as part of physics is

00:20:59 Speaker_01
Confusing because I'm stupid but even if there are determined like it is deterministic how physics works and perhaps how people think is deterministic in a way that like we can't comprehend but maybe it is maybe there's a way that minds work that is is figurable is understandable

00:21:17 Speaker_01
it's not to me that doesn't get around free will because it's not deterministic what exactly you do or even if you do something that is a sort of unconscious reaction if you just blurt something out or if you take an action without considering it that's not the the ultimate action that you have in this universe you can take subsequent actions you can apologize you can change your mind i mean unless you are killing someone which you can't undo unless you're doing something that's

00:21:46 Speaker_01
un-undoable. There's a lot of action that you can take after even a if you would say, oh, well, I was I was beyond my control. It was it was my destiny. It was my fate. I didn't choose to do that.

00:21:57 Speaker_01
You choose to do everything else that you do subsequent to that, I think. I don't know if it is, if the world is deterministic, but even if it is, I don't think that's necessarily what is or isn't free will.

00:22:06 Speaker_01
I think there is another component of free will, and it's more, it's more human and societal.

00:22:12 Speaker_01
And it has to do with, even if you do something and you feel like it was outside of your control, you still maintain the autonomy of how you continue to act once that thing has happened.

00:22:23 Speaker_01
Once you've said or done something, you can continue to say and do other things. So like, I guess I was trying to get more at like, what is free will?

00:22:31 Speaker_01
Because I've seen arguments where it basically ends at some philosopher or physicist or someone is like, well, I'm pretty sure the universe is deterministic. So there can't be free will. That's it.

00:22:40 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:22:41 Speaker_01
And like, I guess I don't buy that.

00:22:43 Speaker_04
there is a lot of support for hard determinism which is basically that there is no free will and if you go that route the conclusion is that if there is no free will people can't be held accountable for their actions because they didn't choose them they were destined to perform them or whatever have you and then there's um

00:22:58 Speaker_04
like metaphysical libertarianism, which has a few different aspects to it, but that's basically team free will, which is like, hey, people can and do veto actions that causation would say they wouldn't do.

00:23:10 Speaker_04
Therefore, there's probably free will or there is free will. Causation doesn't make sense. However, I think what you're approaching is compatibilism, which is, there is causation, there is determinism, but they aren't externally constrained.

00:23:25 Speaker_04
When they get to you, you internally get to control that aspect. So sure, it's determined, but you are the determining factor, that's what makes you you, which is still a form of free will. Yes, there is causation that comes into you.

00:23:39 Speaker_04
You process it and spit out action and the things in your life that have shaped you and made you you depend determine what you're going to spit out.

00:23:47 Speaker_04
So it is determined, but the you that is you still determines it and therefore you are the agent responsible. You are the free will and you are accountable for your actions.

00:23:58 Speaker_02
It's probably both. There's probably a moral theory like that, right? Where it's like it's both compatibilism is that

00:24:04 Speaker_02
you think yeah if you think of it from like a physics standpoint a star will create a light particle its its path is determined because no matter what it's going to bounce against other particles yes and that will change its trajectory but the moment that it's born that path is set and let's say that path sends it in a once it gets out of the star if it takes a long time gets out of the star and it's

00:24:31 Speaker_02
straight line, it's going to go and whether it gets curved by a black hole, whether it gets, you know, impact, but it's going to hit something or, you know, maybe not, but it's going to go somewhere like that, that path is determined.

00:24:44 Speaker_02
So you could say from a physics standpoint, well, everything's determined, but also it's, I'm not 100% sure if that's true either, because there can be determined things in a system.

00:24:55 Speaker_02
And then there can still be choices that affect it because a light particle doesn't

00:25:00 Speaker_02
think but also you break it down further you're like his thoughts just electrons falling down in your brain and it's like is the magic of the brain just collapsing those possibilities down into different particles or different deterministic moments at will is like it it chooses when to make things deterministic and in a weird way that's free will so it's it comes and goes

00:25:22 Speaker_02
Or you can just look at it like we're all going to die. We don't know when and we don't know what choice we makes makes that the hypothetical light particle that can kill that will kill us.

00:25:33 Speaker_02
Let's just say it's just a it's a light bullet that's coming straight for us. We don't know when that's going to hit us. But you know, we we live in a box. Even if it's the illusion of free will, it's a very convincing illusion.

00:25:45 Speaker_02
And at the end of the day, what's the difference between that and reality? Again, it comes down to just what you believe. And even if that's not a choice, then I believe it's a choice, and therefore, I think, and therefore, I am.

00:25:58 Speaker_01
This episode is brought to you by RocketMoney. RocketMoney is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

00:26:09 Speaker_01
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00:26:47 Speaker_04
I wonder if this will shape your guys' thoughts at all. The existence of God or just omniscience in general, if you know the past, present, and future, the fact that that already is determined in some way, does that eliminate free will?

00:27:02 Speaker_04
If someone can know the future,

00:27:04 Speaker_02
that goes back to what we were talking about before that's the knowing where every particle is at any time because if you know that if you had the ability to know where every particle all the the the 10 to the 40 something power particles that are in existence if you were to know where they are you would know everything that that is the definition of knowing every you have the information of every single particle and the assembly of it it's it's relation to other particles around it

00:27:29 Speaker_02
because to know where something is, you have to base it on where everything else is around it. And you effectively know everything. The amount of data that that is, is so unquantifiable to the human mind, you can't comprehend its magnitude.

00:27:41 Speaker_02
But if you knew that that would be omniscience, right? Yeah, literally be it. If you knew that it would kind of go back to well, would that just collapse everything?

00:27:50 Speaker_02
Because like that same light particle, when you when you're moving at the speed of light, everything else is basically static.

00:27:56 Speaker_02
And but to a light particle, if it could think its journey from where it started to where it ended, it would be instantaneous. It never existed to its perspective. So it could never understand its existence.

00:28:08 Speaker_02
And I think the moment that it does, it kind of starts to probably slow down, you know, just because it's, wait a minute, hold on, but it's it's over so fast for the light particle, it never it never

00:28:18 Speaker_02
was it basically effectively never was to the particle, but to everything else around it, observing in the relativity of that, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's different.

00:28:28 Speaker_02
So omniscience, if it did exist, it would exist in a way that we could never understand.

00:28:34 Speaker_04
Do you think it would mean that free will is impossible? Or do you think that we can still have free will and they just know what will come? But if they already know what will come, do we really get to choose it?

00:28:43 Speaker_02
I guess, honestly, I don't think it would matter because if there was something that was like completely omniscient, to the point where it could understand everything, like obviously like godliness and whatnot, it would exist like in a in a higher perspective than we could ever appreciate.

00:29:01 Speaker_02
what you throw in there, bud. There's a long cord and I pulled it in my speaker.

00:29:05 Speaker_02
I don't think if that knowledge doesn't stop everything immediately, then I don't think it matters for us inside the box, because to us and our perspective and our experiences, all we have is the unfortunate circumstance of of the very convincing illusion of free will.

00:29:23 Speaker_02
And therefore, all we do is think that we have free will. And therefore, there is no other. So both is and isn't. Bob, you agree with that?

00:29:32 Speaker_01
I agree. No, I actually have thought about this a fair amount in just to myself, basically. But the notion of omnipotence existing is basically incompatible with the way that we understand the universe, I think.

00:29:47 Speaker_01
Like it like Marcus saying if there was a being some entity that that had that not only would time lose all meaning to them in terms of like their existence, but literally like it's a thing that humanity can't really comprehend.

00:30:04 Speaker_01
it's it's a it's an amount of information nothing that we've ever invented or the human brain itself like can't contain or conceive of so it's just like even if it's the worst case of what mark said we still live in a world where as far as we can really tell yeah we basically do have free will because there's no

00:30:23 Speaker_01
there's no amount of understanding we could gain that would get beyond that, at least unless like, unless our brains evolves, unless our species evolves, unless something changes dramatically, the way we are right now, it's inconceivable.

00:30:36 Speaker_01
It's really more of a concept, the idea of an omnipotent God or being or whatever, another species of some sort.

00:30:43 Speaker_02
And in a way to whatever you want to call it energy or substance or, you know, power, whatever it would take to know every particle is more than is in the universe itself, because it would take more. than exists to know where everything is.

00:31:00 Speaker_02
Therefore, it would obviously exist outside of the universe. And I think that distinction is, is very important, because if it if it does take more than what is within, then it has to be without.

00:31:10 Speaker_02
And therefore, they don't even exist in the system that they are saying is deterministic. Therefore, the perspective is is not only just different, it's, it's impossible to conflate with the experience within the system.

00:31:25 Speaker_02
So to to them, we are also kind of both noble, and they will never know our perspective, they probably could have, they would probably have moral quandaries of whether we have free will or not, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting.

00:31:39 Speaker_04
Do you think, then, that the mind and body are separate entities? Because a lot of the free will questions lead into what's called the mind-body problem. And if everything is physical, likely it can be determined by physical causes.

00:31:51 Speaker_04
But if the mind is separate and you have free will, unless you can find a way to rationalize having free will and it all being one thing, do you think the mind and body are truly separate things, then? Or are they one entity?

00:32:02 Speaker_04
And for those of you out there that know this subject well, this is a very rough, again, approximation, so I apologize if I misconstrue something or don't get something exactly right or say the things you want me to say, but I'm trying to guide on a subject I'm not super familiar with.

00:32:14 Speaker_01
I've been saving this one because I actually had this in the chamber and while Mark was talking, I did some Googling to make sure I remember. enough facts to talk about it.

00:32:22 Speaker_01
I think neuroscience has done some interesting stuff to sort of speak to kind of what you're asking. Basically, there were some studies where researchers were taking an active scan of participants brains, and then they were offered choices

00:32:39 Speaker_01
And the summary, my summary of their findings is basically before the participants had a conscious understanding of what decision they were making, they could detect in their brain there was already a choice that was made neurologically.

00:32:58 Speaker_01
And I don't know the technical details, but basically they could tell from the brain activity that the participant's brain had already prepared to make the decision and had sort of done the decision process.

00:33:10 Speaker_01
And this is called readiness potential, I think, in what they published.

00:33:14 Speaker_01
This research was considered by a lot of people to sort of debunk the idea of free will, that your this is a demonstration, scientifically measured demonstration of determinism, because your brain is doing things before you're even consciously aware that you're making a choice.

00:33:30 Speaker_01
And then you just feel like now when you get when you think about it consciously, you feel like you're making a choice, but it's already in there, right?

00:33:38 Speaker_01
But there were subsequent experiments that challenged this sort of finding and found basically that there's a difference between an important decision and an inconsequential decision.

00:33:49 Speaker_01
That the readiness potential only happens when you're being presented with some kind of choice that is not a huge deal. Like there, an example of that is there is a you're given two options, one or two, you pick either one.

00:34:06 Speaker_01
And in an immaterial decision, there would be it's two nonprofits, and they each get $500. They just want you to pick one that you like the most, but like it doesn't affect the outcome. You're just making a choice.

00:34:18 Speaker_01
The the unconscious readiness potential was found in decisions like that.

00:34:23 Speaker_01
But if they gave you a thousand, they said, here's, you're responsible for a thousand dollars and you're picking one or two and the thousand dollars goes to one, the one you pick and doesn't go to the other nonprofit.

00:34:35 Speaker_01
The unconscious decision-making that came before the conscious expression of it was not found in the scans they were doing. There's a difference between maybe some things kind of are predetermined. Maybe you make a lot of choices.

00:34:49 Speaker_01
I mean, everything you do is a choice, right? Over the course of a day of your life. But maybe there are some choices where you really choose to exercise your free will more assertively, or you just choose to bring out the free will.

00:35:01 Speaker_01
It of course begs the question, what in your brain decides whether a choice is or is not meaningful, because that is not objective. Things are or are not meaningful to different people for different reasons.

00:35:12 Speaker_01
But the researchers who did that research basically said, we're not trying to, like, just make the argument at a deeper level that there's still some deterministic thing that you don't have control over.

00:35:22 Speaker_01
Our argument would be that human brain is so inscrutable. It's so complex.

00:35:30 Speaker_01
that our science might never have the ability to fully comprehend everything that happens, but that there's clearly a complexity beyond either you are or are not making a choice.

00:35:42 Speaker_01
And so there's clearly some component of free will buried in all of these, you know, esoteric scans and findings.

00:35:49 Speaker_01
But I just, I find that interesting because it is, it sort of gets back to Mark's point about if you really could know everything, you couldn't be part of the system.

00:35:57 Speaker_01
So there's no way humans are ever going to, you know, create a one-to-one simulation of the entire universe that would tell us all of the outcomes of everything. That's just resource wise, not possible.

00:36:08 Speaker_04
No, it's much more of a God conversation with omniscience than it is us.

00:36:11 Speaker_01
It just makes, it makes me, it doesn't give me an argument. It just gives me the personal feeling of like, there has to be free will. There just clearly is some component of free will.

00:36:20 Speaker_01
And I think part of that is that your mind and your body and the physiology and the physics of what happens in your brain and how you make choices is kind of inexorably linked.

00:36:30 Speaker_01
And so like, I think if you took a mind and put it in a jar, it basically isn't the same person.

00:36:35 Speaker_01
It could, you know, if you could do that, and it was the same brain with the exact same thoughts and memories, it might be kind of the same person, but their experience of the universe and the way that their decision making functioned, their internal motivations, all of that would be affected by the fact that they're no longer the person that they were with the mind and the body that they had.

00:36:55 Speaker_01
Now they're a new They're a new person. They will have the exact same types of motivations and reactions to things.

00:37:03 Speaker_04
In that case, if someone loses one of their senses, do you feel that they're a different person too?

00:37:08 Speaker_02
Versus them having that sense? Like, most certainly, yeah.

00:37:12 Speaker_04
So if you're taking like, I'm just curious for Bob's point of view, if like, if you take a brain, put it in a jar, it's not fundamentally the same person.

00:37:19 Speaker_04
But if you remove an aspect of that person, that's crucial to their ability to interact with the world as they had before. Does that also change their person B now, not person A? Yeah, a hundred percent.

00:37:30 Speaker_01
The idea of a discrete self that I am me and I will always be me is I think comforting to people because you want to have every individual wants to have a concept of who they are and they want it to be something that's hopefully at least a little concrete because that's what a lot of your life is based around who you are and what you think is important.

00:37:48 Speaker_01
But I think the real answer really is everything that happens to you kind of makes you a new person and some things change you a lot more than other things.

00:37:57 Speaker_01
You losing one of your senses that you were born with and had spent your whole life with that now you don't have definitely like makes you a different person, but also important people in your life dying or leaving important experiences in your life.

00:38:12 Speaker_01
will completely change who you are, because they will completely change your internal motivations and perceptions of the world around you in, you know, a lot of ways. So like, you're, it's not like you're not you anymore.

00:38:27 Speaker_01
And you just like, change your voice, look different, like, clearly, there are parts of you that are still the same, you're still yourself, but you're constantly a new person with every experience in the sense that I'm talking about.

00:38:38 Speaker_02
Yeah, it's, I think the probably the closest example that we have of is twins, you know, they don't have the exact same brain, that's for sure, because they don't even have the exact same fingerprint.

00:38:49 Speaker_02
But it's pretty much a very similarly structured brain in a very similarly structured body. And they have completely different experiences, different people, fundamentally different people for many.

00:39:02 Speaker_02
But when it comes down to, you know, our experiences, I, I know that when you call it the bicameral mind, it's not exactly pertaining to this, but I just love it how they say it in Westworld, the bicameral mind, like, I love them talking about this, but the two mind thing,

00:39:17 Speaker_02
If you want to distinct it as like the mind and the body, those are the two things.

00:39:21 Speaker_02
And the mind, what we know is we as is like the passenger, we are not in control in some of these theories, because we just get the leftover scraps of all the data that is taken into the body. But it happens so quickly.

00:39:36 Speaker_02
And so you know, so simply that we have a very persistent illusion of our experience. And this kind of goes with the not having free will kind of thing. But I don't think it's specifically about that, that we are just a passenger.

00:39:49 Speaker_02
I believe that the mind-body, if there is a separation, we're the tool for analysis further than what the brain has the capability of doing. It's a tool that the entity that we are has and has evolved to this point.

00:40:07 Speaker_02
It's a very, very useful tool because If the instincts and the structure doesn't have the answer, it's the same thing as what goes on in thyroid. The thyroid is an amazing thing. It's part of the immune system.

00:40:21 Speaker_02
And the way it works is whenever there's a virus in the body that it doesn't know how to deal with, the body can and will adapt to it. Not all of them because there are certain viruses that kind of exist outside of it.

00:40:33 Speaker_02
But in the thyroid is an infinity engine of antibodies. almost infinite, but it cranks through random permutations at an incredible speed to try to find the answer to this virus.

00:40:47 Speaker_02
And that's if it detects it, you know, and if you know, if it's compatible with, you know, human, human biology and stuff like that. But once it knows there's a threat, it will crank through these to get to it.

00:40:58 Speaker_02
And in doing so, there's a danger to that, because sometimes the antibody will affect the human body. It'll be like it can kill this thing, but it'll kill things.

00:41:06 Speaker_02
So there's actually cells on the way out of these antibodies of human cells of all variety to test against. So it not only gets an answer, it then tests it against everything in the body.

00:41:16 Speaker_02
And if it does, if it kills something in the body is like, well, we shouldn't use that. And it kind of scraps it out. It doesn't make these decisions, you know, intentionally, it does this automatically.

00:41:24 Speaker_02
And so what we might be is kind of just a big mental thyroid is like we are there sitting as like a passion in the sidecar.

00:41:34 Speaker_02
But when we're handed the controls, it's because the driving force of all this and it's the majority, let's be honest, I don't know what's going on in each cell, the brain doesn't we, the mind doesn't even know what's going on in the body half the time, can't control it and shouldn't control it.

00:41:51 Speaker_02
but at the same time is still serving a very important role. And the mind that we have, even if it's mostly an illusion, might be the only scrap of free will that exists like free will might be an evolutionarily developed

00:42:07 Speaker_02
tool to kind of help the entire being survive, because it needs to have this imagination and planning for futures and kind of plotting out possibilities, even considering possibilities to enhance the entity's ability to survive.

00:42:25 Speaker_02
So it kind of can be a both thing because you have the blueprint and the instincts there in and then you take in information and what it can answer quickly, because the human mind that you're thinking is not very fast compared to everything else.

00:42:38 Speaker_02
And it's like, we can't figure this out. You go like we are the Jesus that takes the wheel because the mind's just like, I can't fucking figure it out.

00:42:45 Speaker_02
do this and you're like, Oh, okay, I get it now, you know, and then, yeah, that's, that's probably what I would probably think is a fun way to look at it.

00:42:54 Speaker_04
Is it also possible, I guess this is to both of you, when we take the wheel, it's just a more complex determinism. So like, I take a sip of water, water enters my mouth, I swallow it. I take a sip of water, but there's like something chewy in there.

00:43:07 Speaker_04
All of a sudden it's like I either chew it and swallow it, or I take a moment, spit it out. I take a bite of food, I need to chew it, swallow it. Take a bite of food, my body rejects it, it starts to go down, mm-mm, throw it up.

00:43:19 Speaker_04
Like there are different reactions we have to something like that, depending on other factors, right? We put something in our mouth, swallow, digest, goes out, drink too much alcohol. Eventually you start to feel sick. Your body rejects it.

00:43:30 Speaker_04
Later that night you are getting it out of your system. So with thoughts and things like that too, could it be a thing where like goes through this processing and it's like a splitter conveyor belt, something that doesn't matter.

00:43:40 Speaker_04
Let's just spit out a decision before we even think about it. Done. Do we want to give $1,000 to this one or this one? Okay. Well, there's some consideration here. Let's send this to the more complex processor.

00:43:51 Speaker_04
And we're consciously aware of the more complex processor, but ultimately still a complex processor, like an eight ball. You have an eight ball, you shake it, it gives you one of like 10 answers. That's our auto thing.

00:44:01 Speaker_04
But then you have your AOL instant messenger bot where you're like, hey, what's your name? Do you have dreams? And it has some, a lot more options it can come up with that takes things that you say to give your answer.

00:44:12 Speaker_04
Could our brains just be that or is it actually free will?

00:44:16 Speaker_02
Probably the question boils down to how complex does determinism need to be to functionally be free will?

00:44:22 Speaker_02
Because at a certain point, the complexity reaches that inflection point where it crosses over to being like it's impossible for the entire system to fully map out every possibility. So not knowing that is so complex could be.

00:44:35 Speaker_02
But I think one of the one of the ways that the mind does have a kind of not just passenger capacity is the mind is the driver of change in the body, the rest of the brain is changed by the minds answers. it's changed.

00:44:53 Speaker_02
So it's deterministic processes are functionally changed because of the conclusions that you reach. This is how learning functionally works. Your nerves make connections that are driven by the patterns that your conscious mind takes in.

00:45:10 Speaker_02
it's offloading to the subconscious mind, but you learn and muscle memory exists because it was driven by the this engine, whether this engine is deterministic or not, it's like a just a more complex one.

00:45:23 Speaker_02
I think it's a fascinating and really interesting connection because it affects change both ways. And it can break down. That's how like, anxiety can cause extreme conflicts and lead to depression and like,

00:45:37 Speaker_02
these these imbalances can cause like the the balance is very, very fragile between the two processes. I believe this is all just conjecture. I'm just like, talking out my ass.

00:45:48 Speaker_02
But I think that the fact that it's not just a one way thing, it's not just taking in but the mind can affect change on the rest of the system. Um, even if it's a system going, ah, that's in conclusion, I will change myself.

00:46:00 Speaker_02
But I think, I think it's more intertwined than that. And that intertwining of deterministic functions where I go, like, how complex do these deterministic things need to be to become functionally free will.

00:46:14 Speaker_04
So almost like a parabolic curve. It's like approaching free will and it's so close that they might as well just be the same thing. Okay, we're going deeper than I thought we would. I'm not gonna lie. It's interesting. Bob, any more thoughts on that one?

00:46:26 Speaker_04
No, just no. Don't want to think about it anymore. Bob, you're determined factory shutdown.

00:46:33 Speaker_01
That doesn't look like much of anything to me.

00:46:37 Speaker_02
Is that a West? That's a Westworld reference, right? Yeah, I'm not seeing Westworld. I need to see it. You should. You would love the philosophical discussion of the first season. Then stop.

00:46:46 Speaker_01
Maybe watch a little of season two because you'll be curious, but then stop when you know it's time to stop. Also, doesn't it like not exist anymore? Didn't it get shelved forever removed from Max and did it like go majorly downhill or something?

00:46:58 Speaker_01
There are four seasons. And honestly, the last season is OK. But the first season is the reason the entire show exists and is far and away the best and most interesting season.

00:47:09 Speaker_02
It is really nice. If it just existed as a one season limited series, it would it would be up there with one of the most fascinating series possible.

00:47:19 Speaker_01
It's also very much worth it to go and watch the movie that was made in the 60s. It's also called Westworld, and it's very different from the TV series, but still a very fascinating watch.

00:47:30 Speaker_02
for anyone wondering it is an HBO show. So there's a gratuitous amount of nudity and sex Oh, and violence and violence. But in a way, it's like those themes I I would never make a project with that much sex and nudity.

00:47:44 Speaker_02
But the themes do tie in with those do tie in with the theme, but it's just so you know,

00:47:51 Speaker_04
You didn't have to keep selling, man. You had me at nudity.

00:47:54 Speaker_01
A lot of nudity. Like some episodes are primarily nudity.

00:47:59 Speaker_04
Alright, well that's the episode, everyone. I don't know who won, but I gotta go start watching this Westworld thing real quick. Okay, we got a pretty good discussion in.

00:48:10 Speaker_04
I feel like this is probably a decent wrapping point, unless you all have any other final things you want to say.

00:48:15 Speaker_02
Did you have more subjects to talk about than just free will?

00:48:17 Speaker_04
No, no, I wanted to focus mainly on free will today. I had a lot of notes on it. Yeah, I'm trying to think if I have like a button thing I want to put on here.

00:48:23 Speaker_04
I guess the conclusion that it is free will, even if we can see that maybe it's not, that it's just so complex that it gets so close to free will, we might as well call it free will, is interesting.

00:48:33 Speaker_04
A lot of things I found when I was looking, it seems like a lot of people are more on team determinism.

00:48:39 Speaker_04
I think that want for free will is there, and then people can argue in and of itself that wanting something in and of itself is a sign of free will. I don't know, it's a complex thing to think about. And then mind-body stuff.

00:48:50 Speaker_04
Mind-body is where I started to get like a bit in over my head in philosophy. Studying stuff like that was kind of like, oh boy, this is getting so in-depth.

00:48:58 Speaker_04
Because now we're talking about anatomy, and brain chemistry, and chemistry in general, and physics, versus also just really complex philosophical theories and trying to make them all make sense together.

00:49:10 Speaker_04
So again, this is a bit beyond my understanding, but I thought maybe one of you would go, I thought Mark would probably be Team Freewill. Bob, I wasn't really sure which way you would go with it.

00:49:19 Speaker_04
When you started off, I thought you were going pretty deterministic, but then you kind of like, you found compatibilism, which is another theory in and of itself, which is cool. But I didn't know where you would go with this.

00:49:28 Speaker_02
You would like Westworld. It is basically this question in a show. Literally on the poster of Westworld is at the top. Free will is not free.

00:49:35 Speaker_04
Well, see, I like morals and morals was my real passion for philosophy was free will is an interesting question because it can touch on morality, because if you don't believe in free will, you can't assign moral responsibility.

00:49:46 Speaker_04
It's like, well, if you didn't choose it, how can we hold you accountable for it? It's just who you are. I didn't go too deep into it, but yeah, I'll have to check it out.

00:49:52 Speaker_04
I've I've I heard good things about Westworld, but I feel like I haven't heard anything in like years about it. Maybe that's why.

00:49:57 Speaker_01
Well, the last season came out a few years ago now. And the first season came out in like twenty eight, nineteen.

00:50:04 Speaker_04
The most of season two and three are just in your opinion, came out in twenty sixteen.

00:50:09 Speaker_01
I mean, honestly, season two is is watchable season three and four really go off the rails. Season two is fun because of where it takes place in a large part. And so like it's fun.

00:50:21 Speaker_02
The problem is season one ends in, you know, I think it was meant to be a one season kind of thing. And they're like, this was so popular. Let's make more.

00:50:30 Speaker_02
You know, they tried and it's not bad, but it's hard to keep that going, especially if you're like, we need more seasons, especially more after if it was also like just a second season.

00:50:40 Speaker_02
That's another different story of like, don't worry about continuing it. But I think like season one's ending is both open ended and also conclusive. And I think that's where the trouble began.

00:50:49 Speaker_02
That's the philosophical discussion of it is like, you know, it's very interesting.

00:50:53 Speaker_01
Also, if you're looking for other media on the question of free will, Mandy and I literally last night watched the movie 2014 movie Ex Machina, which is about development of AI, kind of an interesting, well-made movie with some really good acting about these sorts of questions and consciousness and free will and stuff.

00:51:15 Speaker_01
I don't know how I didn't see that because it's a movie I would have loved to watch when it came out. But 10 years later, finally saw it.

00:51:21 Speaker_02
I haven't seen that one either. Alex Garland is the the maker of that movie also made Annihilation and I think made Sunshine. So if you know what Sunshine is that I really like Sunshine. I got to rewatch it.

00:51:34 Speaker_02
It's kind of like a I don't think it was too terribly successful, but the sun needed a reboot. So they sent a ship out to the sun.

00:51:41 Speaker_02
think of a journey of not journey to the center of the earth, but go down and let's put nukes in the center of the earth and restart the core. You know that movie? No, it's like that. But for the sun, but it's very the style of sunshine.

00:51:54 Speaker_02
I fucking love it. It's very, very pretty. And I know space, you know, you like space.

00:52:01 Speaker_04
Yeah, like space is cool for the moon.

00:52:04 Speaker_01
Apparently that movie you're referencing is called the core of the chorus.

00:52:09 Speaker_02
There's a Reddit post about sunshine. I just I just looked up and it's like talking about how like arguably one of the best sci-fi horror films of all time. But and you know, it goes into detail, but the top comment is zero out of 10.

00:52:19 Speaker_02
No one says it's daylight savings time.

00:52:25 Speaker_01
I mean, that is just right there.

00:52:28 Speaker_04
Alright, yeah, zero out of ten. I would agree, honestly. I've not seen it, but man, that does ruin it, because that would be such a great one-liner. Yeah, sorry to spoil it for everybody. Alright, let me go over the points.

00:52:36 Speaker_04
Hopefully y'all enjoyed this discussion. I know it's a more serious episode, but I don't know. People have been wanting some philosophy. You ask for it, you get it, because I like it. Um, Mark, I'm going to go over your points first. Oh, fuck, man.

00:52:46 Speaker_04
This is determined. I didn't have free will on this episode, did I? Well, no one went determined, so someone had to. Alright, Mark, you got points for sitting is superior, brutal honesty, edging in sleep. He took the point. Yes, free will.

00:53:03 Speaker_04
Science and space, baby. Omniscience wouldn't matter to us. Twins!

00:53:08 Speaker_01
Omniscience!

00:53:10 Speaker_04
Uh, and the parabola close to free will. Why are you saying twins like that? Twins! It's from, uh, Austin Powers, I think. Two girls walk out, they're twins. He just... I always say it like that. Uh, Bob, you got points for Subaru Undo. Bald.

00:53:27 Speaker_04
Looks like it says no oral. I'm pretty sure it says moral. Uh, deterministic world. Moral responsibility is what it is. Compatibilism. Free will as far as we know.

00:53:37 Speaker_04
Neuroscience that then divulged into readiness potential and only happens for minor decisions. I got a point for Hanabi passion, the firework game.

00:53:48 Speaker_01
Now, I remember I was trying to find you a tiles version on eBay and I was searching international eBay's for it. I thought I found one in Russian, but it was just the card version with some misleading Google translate, I think.

00:54:00 Speaker_04
And tell you, man, I don't know how nobody is reselling it. No one is selling it. It's crazy. All right, Mark, you had nine points. Good effort. Good effort. Bob. Promising. You finished with eight points.

00:54:15 Speaker_04
Plus... So despite giving Mark's points first, Mark won. I finished with one point. Well, at least I didn't lose. See, I can also be surprising and unpredictable. Do I speech? Do I speech now? That's up to you, if you have free will or not.

00:54:32 Speaker_04
I got a lens cap. Ooh, man, the late deduction before we... Oh, is that?

00:54:38 Speaker_02
What? Oh, I said the word. That's alright. Your winner's speech. You can lens if you want to. It was determined that I would win this episode from the moment I was born to every decision leading up to here, which was illusions.

00:54:52 Speaker_02
Decisions more like delusions, you know? So we all are part of a orchestrated dance by no will of our own. Yeah, but I won and so I feel good about that. So that's the only thing that matters. I don't care if it's deterministic.

00:55:07 Speaker_02
I feel great and that is awesome. You know what else is great? Drugs. They make you feel super good. So if you, if, if, why don't you just succumb to the, the, the decisions that were made for you already. Let's do drugs. Well said. I'm the winner.

00:55:27 Speaker_02
I can say whatever I want. That's true. That's the rules. That's allowed. It's immunity. It's immunity in this moment. I won. Bob, lose your speech.

00:55:36 Speaker_01
I feel good because I willed freely myself into second place today. I chose it on purpose because I can do that. You're like Dash in the Incredibles at the end.

00:55:47 Speaker_02
Just go for a second, make it close.

00:55:49 Speaker_01
Yeah, no, that's the, I have so much free will that I'm out here coming in a close second just to keep it realistic. That's how free my will is. You can have this one, Mark, because I gave it to you. Good for you. Thanks.

00:56:05 Speaker_02
You determined my future.

00:56:07 Speaker_05
Yeah.

00:56:08 Speaker_02
Wait, what? I'm the passenger to your deeper body.

00:56:12 Speaker_01
Together, we are the bicameral man. Men? Man?

00:56:18 Speaker_04
Are we one man?

00:56:19 Speaker_01
Man.

00:56:20 Speaker_04
Hopefully you all had fun discussing this stuff. I know this is usually more up my alley than yours. Some people like philosophy episodes. Hopefully everyone does, but sorry it was less comedy, but good interesting discussion.

00:56:29 Speaker_04
Maybe you learned a thing or two. Maybe you thought deeply about something today. Maybe you didn't. In any case, you can find us in our respective channels. Me at Minion777 or LordMinion777. Bob at MySquirm. Mark at Markiplier. Check out Edge of Sleep.

00:56:41 Speaker_04
It's out now. You should have watched it already, but if you have, watch it again. If you haven't, fucking watch it. We have merch, tractablestore.com. Stay tuned for the next episode where Mark will lead us on some kind of journey.

00:56:52 Speaker_04
Until then, podcast out.