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Episode: Turn expenses into travel with Dr Devon Gimbel

Author: Michelle Chestovich MD
Duration: 00:49:36

Episode Shownotes

Physician coach Michelle Chestovich MD discusses with Dr Devon Gimbel how to leverage expenses into travel points. She has done all the research on how to use your expenses to expand your travel opportunities and shares how this can benefit you too.

Her podcast: ``https://www.pointmetofirstclass.com`/podcastLearn` more on her website: https://www.pointmetofirstclass.com

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_00
You are listening to Episode 165 of the Remind Yourself Podcast. Welcome to the Remind Yourself Podcast, the podcast for physician moms just like you who want to ditch mom guilt, stop yelling, and start enjoying their lives today.

00:00:21 Speaker_00
I'm your host, Rachelle Chestevich, certified life coach, family physician, and mom of four. If you want to overcome overwhelm for once and for all, this is the place for you. Hello, Mama Docs, and welcome back.

00:00:39 Speaker_00
I am thrilled today to have a fellow physician, fellow coach, and an amazing world traveler that is going to share with us amazing tips and tools that is going to allow us to expand our world. in a very economical sort of way.

00:00:56 Speaker_00
Okay, so without further ado, welcome Dr. Devon Gimbel.

00:01:00 Speaker_01
Thank you so much for having me. I love you. I love your podcast. I love talking about the topic we're going to talk about today. So I'm just so excited to be here and so grateful that you are going to share some of your time with me.

00:01:13 Speaker_00
Well, I am thrilled. And every time I have guests, I just think to myself, what would my listeners really benefit from?

00:01:20 Speaker_00
And the work that you do with helping us convert points that we earn from credit card spends, because we're humans and we often have families and spend money, how we can convert that into points that then we can use for adventure and or just

00:01:37 Speaker_00
basic travel, all of the things. And so tell me about this amazing work. You've been doing this for a few years now. I've admired you from afar and from up close. Tell us what it is that you do.

00:01:48 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely. So in hopefully a small nutshell, basically what I do is I love to teach other people, especially other physicians, especially women physicians, women business owners,

00:01:58 Speaker_01
how they can turn their expenses, so just the things they're spending money on anyway, to run their lives or run their businesses into credit card points, and then how to use those credit card points to improve their travel experiences, whether that means just traveling more, like traveling more often, traveling better, and I think better is a completely subjective and personal term.

00:02:18 Speaker_01
So for some folks, traveling better means when they fly internationally, they actually get to fly business class instead of economy, or

00:02:25 Speaker_01
traveling better to some folks means that they get to bring their parents along with them when they go on family trips, or, you know, they get to send their child somewhere for a graduation present.

00:02:37 Speaker_01
So I am all about really teaching other people about this enormous opportunity that so many of us are sitting on that we just don't realize and how to turn that into amazing travel experiences.

00:02:49 Speaker_01
Because I think there are so many of us for whom travel has been a really influential part of our lives. And I just want to expand access to that to more folks and frankly, especially more women.

00:03:02 Speaker_00
Oh my gosh, I absolutely love that. And, you know, I think I also just very much value travel. I think it just helps us expand the world. And, you know, thankfully I grew up in a family that really enjoyed to explore and see things.

00:03:16 Speaker_00
And that really kind of made me who I am today. And in college, again, many of us have the opportunity to travel abroad. Some don't, but it just plants a seed that there are so many amazing things and people and cultures in the world.

00:03:30 Speaker_00
And I love going and exploring and sharing that with my kids. Now, of course, we had a couple of years recently where everything was locked down.

00:03:37 Speaker_00
But I think many of us are now getting really excited about getting back on planes and traveling and things like that.

00:03:43 Speaker_00
And I know for me, my favorite things to do with my family are trips and adventures and vacations, all different varieties, because it creates such beautiful memories and time together. And I know that you also value that.

00:03:58 Speaker_00
So I'm going to start with how did you become so knowledgeable? OK, for people who don't know, this woman is extremely brilliant and she's like quadruple million board certified in pathology and other things. But beyond that,

00:04:14 Speaker_00
How did you learn about this whole being able to leverage how we spend things into points? Talk to me a little bit about that.

00:04:21 Speaker_01
You know, sort of by accident, it was not a thing where I set out deliberately to say, oh, I want to learn how to do this skill.

00:04:27 Speaker_01
You know, like the way that maybe someone would say, I want to learn how to play the violin or I want to train for a marathon.

00:04:32 Speaker_01
So really what happened for me, and I'll kind of start back at the beginning, it was really interesting for me to hear you just right now talk about your experience, you know, traveling with your family as a younger person and how that had always been kind of part of your life.

00:04:45 Speaker_01
And for me, it was almost the opposite. I grew up in Southern California. I was raised by a single mother, had one older sibling. We were not particularly financially resourced. And so we did not have that experience of really traveling as a family.

00:04:59 Speaker_01
Like sometimes we would get in the car and drive from where we lived in Southern California to like Joshua Tree and camp, right?

00:05:04 Speaker_01
Which is a beautiful experience, but we didn't have what I considered to be a really wide range of travel experiences when I was growing up. But, you know, this was way back. You and I are around the same age.

00:05:15 Speaker_01
This is like way back in the pre-digital era, right? Where it's like there was no internet. We had no computer in the house. But what we did have was we had National Geographic magazines and we had an encyclopedia set, right?

00:05:27 Speaker_01
I know some people remember what that actually was like, right? To have all of your volumes, like not 26.

00:05:32 Speaker_01
There wasn't one for every letter, but you know, cause like some of the letters like X, Y, Z, you know, they'd all be combined into like one book, but you know, it was like a good 15 at least books. Right. And I was that kid who read the encyclopedia.

00:05:44 Speaker_01
Right. I mean, I mean, of course, is it a shock?

00:05:47 Speaker_00
Right.

00:05:47 Speaker_01
Then we all ended up in medical school, but you know, I remember I would have these National Geographic magazines and I mean, just the photography, right?

00:05:54 Speaker_01
Like I remember the covers of these magazines and there would always be, you know, sometimes that sort of like featured section where you could fold out, you know, like four pages.

00:06:02 Speaker_01
And I remember I'd be like sitting in my closet late at night, like looking at these National Geographic magazines about all of these amazing places, you know, like the pyramids in Egypt.

00:06:11 Speaker_01
And I just remember, you know, this aerial photo over the Okavango Delta, which is this just, beautiful place in Botswana. And I just remember feeling like, this world is so big, and there's so many pieces to it, and I want to see all of them.

00:06:29 Speaker_01
And I don't know where that came from, because again, my family was not one that really had, you know, this really kind of strong history of actually traveling.

00:06:37 Speaker_01
Um, you know, I had no one in my family who I would call, like, really adventurous when it came to travel, but it was just something that I always felt really drawn to. But, never really had the means or the access to do those types of trips.

00:06:49 Speaker_01
And, you know, then did what I think a lot of us do in terms of a very traditional educational path. You know, I went to undergrad, studied all the time.

00:06:56 Speaker_01
I knew I wanted to go to med school, but I actually didn't want to go straight through because I knew that, you know, once I started medical school, I was probably not going to have a lot of time to go off and do something like explore until I was in my sixties and retired.

00:07:10 Speaker_01
And so I actually took time off in between undergrad and medical school, about two years. And this was my, I call it my travel by any means necessary phase where basically I would scrounge together like whatever dollars I could find.

00:07:24 Speaker_01
And I would travel as far and as long as I could on the least amount of money I could. And it, those were some of the most transformative experiences of my life. And it was the first time in my life that I really got to go out

00:07:36 Speaker_01
and do that thing that I had been feeling this pull to do literally since I was, you know, six or seven, right? To go out and explore. And for me, especially to be in places that were so different from my frame of reference.

00:07:47 Speaker_01
You know, I grew up in Southern California. I went to undergrad in Northern California. I had no interest in spending like a semester in the UK. I'm sure the UK is lovely and amazing, But that seemed too familiar to me.

00:07:59 Speaker_01
I was always really drawn to the places that weren't going to be a carbon copy of my sort of like Western, you know, North American kind of experience.

00:08:06 Speaker_01
And so, you know, I ended up living in Southeast Asia for six months and literally, you know, like bombing around Southeast Asia. I think I lived on like five hundred dollars for six months and it was incredible.

00:08:17 Speaker_01
And I came home to start the whole medical, you know, med school application process.

00:08:21 Speaker_01
And then as soon as I had submitted all my primary applications, and I had that gap, you know, before, before you have to do like secondaries or, you know, go on interviews, I had a couple months gap. And I was like, where's the next place I can go?

00:08:32 Speaker_01
And I had found a PI at UC San Diego who he was an infectious disease doc and he studied a couple of main infectious diseases, but he had a lab in the Amazon in Peru where he was studying one very specific infectious disease.

00:08:46 Speaker_01
And I just remember, cause I had gone to undergrad at UC Berkeley. So at the time there's this like UC online system where you could kind of troll around looking for like jobs, like any of the UCs.

00:08:56 Speaker_01
And so I had found this guy at UC San Diego with this lab and he was looking for someone essentially to do you like very low level research stuff.

00:09:03 Speaker_00
hopefully not yellow fever.

00:09:05 Speaker_01
No, it was actually leptospirosis, which is a really, really interesting disease. So, you know, he had posted this job, you know, whatever advertisement.

00:09:13 Speaker_01
And I remember at the time, like submitting an application and we got on the phone for an interview. And I remember just thinking like, please, please, please don't offer me a job in San Diego. Like San Diego is amazing. Lovely.

00:09:23 Speaker_01
I'm like, I have no interest in sitting in an air conditioned lab in La Jolla. You know, I was like, send me, like, send me to Peru. And so he needed someone to do this, like very manual labor aspect of his infectious disease research.

00:09:37 Speaker_01
But I was like, I am in. So I went to Peru and I lived in the Amazon for a couple months, you know, doing infectious disease research. Incredible. But again, you know, this was not what I would consider to be luxury travel by any means.

00:09:50 Speaker_01
And I didn't care because I was just getting to explore, which was amazing. So, you know, then of course life was lifing and I did want to go to med school.

00:09:59 Speaker_01
So, you know, I kind of stopped this, you know, nomadic lifestyle, went through med school, you know, went through residency, all the stuff.

00:10:05 Speaker_01
And, you know, lo and behold, I come out on the other end, I finished fellowship in 2012 and got my first, you know, grownup job. And I was working, full time in a private practice.

00:10:15 Speaker_01
And it was the first time in my life, which I'm sure some people can relate to, even though we get paid in residency and fellowship, I mean, we're getting paid like half of minimum wage, right? Like you're barely living on what you're getting.

00:10:25 Speaker_00
Yeah. The 80 hours a week divided by the. Right.

00:10:28 Speaker_01
Especially if you're in, you know, like so many of us, we train at academic institutions in big cities that are not exactly known for having a very affordable cost of living. That had been my experience as well.

00:10:38 Speaker_01
So after, you know, I finished fellowship was the first time in my life that as an attending, I actually started having disposable income. And I also, like many people had a lot of financial obligations.

00:10:50 Speaker_01
You know, I had gone through a private medical school entirely on school loans and so student loans. And so, you know, I had this really beautiful student loan balance that I was looking at and all the other things.

00:11:01 Speaker_01
But for me, because I had grown up in an environment where there really weren't financial resources, there was no financial education.

00:11:07 Speaker_01
I remember thinking like, okay, for the first time in my life, I'm starting to have some money I can do something with. And I don't know what to do with it because no one's ever taught me about this.

00:11:17 Speaker_01
And you know, I, I knew that I would eventually start having more choices around money than, you know, my mom had had when I grew up, but, I had no clue what to do with it. And so really for me, where it started was personal finance education.

00:11:29 Speaker_01
It was this real need to understand and to feel a little bit more secure about how do I make decisions that are going to set me up for a little bit more financial security than what I had experienced when I was younger.

00:11:41 Speaker_01
And so I was reading a lot of just personal finance blogs. Like I need to understand what is a retirement account, you know, like how do I allocate the money that I have between, paying down student loans or saving for certain things.

00:11:53 Speaker_01
I didn't know how to do any of this. And so in sort of the process of trying to learn some basic personal finance and personal education at this point, you know, in 2020, 12, of course the internet was a thing.

00:12:04 Speaker_01
And as often happens when you're on the internet, you know, one website leads to another, leads to another blog.

00:12:09 Speaker_01
And sort of like adjacent and adjacent conversation around a lot of these personal finance blogs is I started hearing or reading or just seeing things about,

00:12:19 Speaker_01
credit cards and credit card points and traveling, like traveling in business class internationally on credit card points. And that's when I started thinking, I wonder what this is all about because I love to travel.

00:12:31 Speaker_01
I have been on, I can't even tell you how many, long-haul international flights in the, like, back of the economy section, right? You're, like, all scrunched up, trying to fall asleep, completely upright, you know, traveling for 48 hours.

00:12:46 Speaker_01
And that was not my favorite part of the travel experience, right? These are just long-haul, super-economy flights, having, you know, a 10-hour layover in an airport where, you know, you're trying to just, like, lay down on a floor somewhere and rest.

00:13:00 Speaker_01
And I remember thinking, I don't understand what any of these people are talking about. At the time, I was terrified of credit cards. And I remember thinking, but I know I love to travel.

00:13:10 Speaker_01
It had never occurred to me ever that I would ever fly anything other than economy anywhere. And I like a puzzle. I think a lot of physicians are like that, right? And this seemed like a puzzle to me.

00:13:22 Speaker_01
And I was like, wait a minute, here's a puzzle where if they're not just lying about this, if this is not some crazy scam or something super irresponsible to do, you're telling me that I can solve this puzzle.

00:13:32 Speaker_01
And the prize is I get to use credit card points instead of money. And then I can travel in a way that which never seemed possible to me. So I was really intrigued specifically by this idea of flying long haul international premium economy flights.

00:13:45 Speaker_01
So meaning business class or first class, because this, again, you could have told me like, you're going to get on a spaceship space shuttle and fly to the moon. Like this was just so outside the realm of my possibility ever.

00:13:56 Speaker_01
But I think we've all had that experience where we've either walked through or peaked

00:14:00 Speaker_01
around the curtain and seen like a long haul business class cabin with like the lie flat seats and really just lusted after those and know that they were never going to be available to us. That was me.

00:14:12 Speaker_01
And so when I started learning about credit card points and the fact that, you know, This could be a possibility. I was very, very intrigued.

00:14:20 Speaker_01
I was not yet ready to jump in because I had a lot of fears and concerns again, just about what I've been taught about credit cards and financial security and responsibility was very important to me.

00:14:28 Speaker_01
And so I was like, I don't know if that's incompatible with this whole thing.

00:14:31 Speaker_01
but I just started learning really slowly and ultimately like from reading all these different blogs and these different websites and just kind of taking one step at a time, what I realized was that you can do this in a way that is very financially responsible.

00:14:44 Speaker_01
It's not going to, you know, ruin your credit score. It's not going to hurt your other financial goals in terms of, you know, potentially saving for a house or saving for retirement.

00:14:53 Speaker_01
And actually what I came to see, especially over my experience is that, I think the credit card points is just one aspect of my overall sort of wealth building strategy.

00:15:05 Speaker_01
And I think that physicians or folks who have higher than average expenses are actually in a really, really unique position to benefit from this. And that became my experience.

00:15:15 Speaker_01
And I think just sort of then like dovetail into, okay, how do you go from practicing medicine to now I no longer practice medicine. I have a business where full time, you know, I teach other people how to do this thing.

00:15:25 Speaker_01
How do you turn your expenses into credit card points and then turn those into travel for yourself?

00:15:30 Speaker_01
You know, is that when I was learning how to do this, I felt like there's a lot of amazing free information online, but I kept feeling like, where's the piece where people talk about how I can apply this to my situation when my situation is,

00:15:43 Speaker_01
I am paying down multiple six figures of student loan debt, or I do have categories of expenses that seem like they're probably higher than what some other people are facing. But how do I really take advantage of that?

00:15:53 Speaker_01
How can I take what I'm spending money on and really put that to full use? And I didn't feel like anyone was having that part of the conversation, which is what's really exciting for me personally.

00:16:03 Speaker_00
Yeah, I would just have to say that the work you do is incredible and we're going to talk more about how people can find out about it. And by the way, your business, this is, well, at least I know your program, point me to First Class.

00:16:14 Speaker_00
I mean, come on, that's phenomenal, right? I am that person who is still accruing points. We'll get to this. But I do lust after those seats. And I don't lust after it. It's just I desire and that's going to happen for me for sure.

00:16:29 Speaker_00
And so I just think it's so cool the way you have dug in and done the work. And I didn't know the entire backstory. So that was also just lovely to see how it came to be and how you too had some doubt and fears.

00:16:43 Speaker_00
So for all you listeners, to normalize, if you're like, oh, I don't know, this sounds a little scary. Yeah, that's totally normal. It means you have a human brain that's looking out for you. It doesn't want you to do something crazy and cuckoo.

00:16:53 Speaker_00
But what I will tell you is that Devin is so smart and responsible and has done a lot of the work and is so good at sharing. no matter what level you want to enter this puzzle, right? If you will, right? Or however you want to take advantage of it.

00:17:09 Speaker_00
So maybe I'll have you speak to that a little bit more. Cause I know, well, talk to me a little bit about your program and then talk to me about like, who benefits? Do you have to be really knowledgeable and hint?

00:17:19 Speaker_00
No, you don't because I'm not, but I've benefited from Devin's education for sure. So I'll just give it back to you. Yeah, absolutely.

00:17:26 Speaker_01
And actually, before we get to those questions, and please remember them, because I'm getting to be that age now where it's like, oh, yeah, hang on to things in my memory. And then they just completely evaporate.

00:17:33 Speaker_00
I'll remember.

00:17:34 Speaker_01
I wanted to come. I want to take like a step back first, because just comment on kind of what you said about, you know, anyone who has doubts or fears kind of around these things around finance.

00:17:45 Speaker_01
I think one of the things that is so important to me is I feel like the older I've gotten, the more that I've tried to learn more again about kind of personal finance and see how a lot of this information is passed to us is I think that first of all, for anyone who has doubts, fears, insecurities around just finances in general or managing personal finances or more specifically, you know, having or using credit cards,

00:18:08 Speaker_01
I think that is so normal and natural because I think that so many of us, particularly if you're kind of in the same generation, you and I are right where, you know, if you're in your thirties or your forties or your fifties, you know, chances are you either got no financial education as a woman or the financial education that you got was really framed in such a way to make you feel

00:18:27 Speaker_01
insecure around money, to feel shameful about the things that you want to spend money on or how you do spend money, and to really instill a lot of insecurity in us. And so first of all, I think it's important to just name that, right?

00:18:38 Speaker_01
To say that, oh, so many of us have received a lot of implicit and explicit messaging when it comes to just money in general, but also, especially if you were socialized or raised as a female, you know, your own personal capability around math.

00:18:53 Speaker_01
around numbers, around finances, around your spending choices and your saving choices.

00:18:58 Speaker_01
And I think that that needs to be part of this conversation because when we feel that shame or that insecurity, I think it's very natural for us to then say, oh, I don't like the way that feels.

00:19:09 Speaker_01
Let me just go and pay attention to the other million things in my life that are also really important and need to be paid attention to. So again, just normalize that you're not alone.

00:19:17 Speaker_01
if you've ever had any of those experiences around anything, you know, financial, but then to speak about, I think I remember at least your first question sort of.

00:19:25 Speaker_00
I can't just stop right there. I'm going to, like, interrupt you right there. And I just want to, like, let people know who are listening.

00:19:30 Speaker_00
Like Devon has done this work and she's very smart about all the cards and points and how to help you the best she can. And yet she's also a coach.

00:19:39 Speaker_00
So when she talks about these feelings and emotions holding you back, like it's such a beautiful combination to really help people

00:19:47 Speaker_00
Yeah, to normalize that to help allay fears and then to help people like figure out how they how they want to do anyway.

00:19:53 Speaker_00
I just think it's a beautiful like magical combination of knowledge about the points and to being a coach really helps with that because I think you know, you can go and read a blog and just like get information about the points, but it does nothing about like

00:20:08 Speaker_01
Right. I agree. And I think so many of us too, you know, we, we all have our own personal histories as well that we bring into any conversation that we're going to have, you know, around money, around finances, around credit cards, right?

00:20:19 Speaker_01
Like based on, again, just your family of origin or the way that people talked about money or finances when you were growing up, or just again, messages in the media, all these things. And,

00:20:28 Speaker_01
we don't exist and function in little vacuums and little bubbles, right? Like we bring all of that messaging along with us. So I do think it is relevant to talk about.

00:20:38 Speaker_01
But in terms of, you know, the program, I think where I started out, again, I just did this as a hobby for myself. I mean, literally way back, you know, in 2012, 2013, 2014, I was just like, oh my gosh, this is amazing, right?

00:20:51 Speaker_01
Like I can take the money again that we're already spending. So this is not about spending money that you wouldn't otherwise spend. It's not about wasting money.

00:20:58 Speaker_01
It's about being really deliberate and leveraging the money that you're already spending and taking it and turning it into this alternate form of currency in the form of credit card points.

00:21:09 Speaker_01
And then using those points to get yourself travel that can honestly be incredibly valuable in terms of the, you know, the cash value that you are otherwise saving.

00:21:19 Speaker_01
And so I was just doing this for myself, you know, for fun, you know, and when I would travel to a medical conference, you know, internationally, I was like, this is the most amazing thing ever. I can actually fly now in business class.

00:21:31 Speaker_01
My out of pocket cash costs is less than what I used to pay for, you know, the basic of the basic economy ticket. And I can arrive without

00:21:41 Speaker_01
my knees hurting and my back hurting and I've actually slept on an airplane, you know, for the first time in my life. And it was amazing.

00:21:47 Speaker_01
And so this was really just to, you know, enhance my travel experiences, my family's travel experiences for a number of years. And then, you know, I mentioned that I no longer practice medicine.

00:21:57 Speaker_01
I had actually stepped away from clinical practice very randomly and coincidentally at the end of 2019. Now, of course, we all know what happened in 2020, you know, the pandemic comes along. And at that time, I have two children.

00:22:09 Speaker_01
And at that time, they were quite young. They were around four years old and one year old.

00:22:13 Speaker_01
And so for most of 2020, you know, I became like the stay at home parent, like unexpectedly, just because everything, you know, was shut down, which was in some ways really beautiful that I had that opportunity, you know, to do it. But then

00:22:26 Speaker_01
kind of once the world started opening up again, my kids kind of getting back into, you know, somewhat of a school schedule. And I had the time on my hands.

00:22:35 Speaker_01
It was really this kind of decision of, OK, do I want to more fully step back into clinical practice? Do I want to do something else? You know, I really wanted to be intellectually stimulated.

00:22:45 Speaker_01
It for me was not really a question of do I want to be a full time person who works inside the home? I knew I still wanted to do something outside the home. At least figuratively, a lot of us have home offices now.

00:22:58 Speaker_00
Outside the home, in the home.

00:22:59 Speaker_01
Outside the home, in the home, exactly. But I was kind of really grappling with, well, what do I want to do?

00:23:04 Speaker_01
And I remember having this thought, and speaking about coaching, because I was already involved in coaching at the time, and having conversations where you just kind of explore, just

00:23:16 Speaker_01
what matters to you or, you know, what are your fears about certain things?

00:23:19 Speaker_01
And I remember someone, one of my friends, who's also a coach asking me like, okay, stop thinking about the question of like, should I look for another, you know, traditional medical job or not?

00:23:29 Speaker_01
Because it's just, that was a question that it was not easy for me to answer. And they just said, if you could do anything, like literally you could do anything and actually get paid for it, what would you do?

00:23:38 Speaker_01
And I remember laughing because I was like, oh, well, obviously I would, teach people how to use credit card points, you know, how to earn them and how to use them for travel. I'm like, I would obviously do that.

00:23:48 Speaker_01
And I immediately said, but nobody would ever pay for that. It's like, nobody would ever pay for that. So what's the point? I don't see how this could be a business.

00:23:56 Speaker_01
You know, my thought process was I learned how to do this by reading blogs and websites literally over like a seven year period and trial and error. And I was like, everyone's smart enough to figure this out, right?

00:24:06 Speaker_01
This is, we're not talking about astrophysics, right? Like anyone, you can read is going to be able to figure this out. You have an internet connection. It's all available and accessible.

00:24:14 Speaker_01
And I just remember her saying like, maybe you, maybe you shouldn't write it off so quickly. Right. And I was like, Oh, that's cute. You know, that's nice, whatever. And I totally wrote it off.

00:24:24 Speaker_01
because I just didn't think that it was possible, right, to create an actual business out of doing this thing. And that was in, you know, like late 2020, early 2021. And I just had no belief that this could be a thing.

00:24:37 Speaker_01
And at the same time, you know, I'm still learning about it. I'm helping people kind of who randomly know that I do this. You know, I had had friends say, gosh, when you travel, you know, you always seem like you are traveling in business class.

00:24:51 Speaker_01
And we know that, you know, you're a physician. We just assume that you're spending all the money on this. And I was like, oh gosh, no, like I would never like for me personally, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

00:24:58 Speaker_01
I would never spend, you know, multiple tens of thousands of dollars on these things. I think that's beautiful if you want to do it. But I was like, I have other financial priorities right now. That's where I'm putting my actual cash money.

00:25:08 Speaker_01
I'm doing this, you know, with credit card points and people just saying, well, how does that even work? Like, what does that mean? How does that work? So I was kind of just helping my close group of friends and some of my family kind of do this thing.

00:25:21 Speaker_01
And towards the end of 2021, I remember thinking, I still had no belief that I could build a business out of this, but I had the thought, well, maybe some people actually want to talk about this or want to learn about this.

00:25:34 Speaker_01
And I think one of the things that's really beautiful about the physician community, and especially female physicians, is I feel like we are

00:25:42 Speaker_01
a group of people who really, really love having community around specific topics and community online around specific topics where we can just talk about the things that we like and share information with one another.

00:25:54 Speaker_01
And there's so many topic-specific, you know, Facebook groups and even topic-specific women physician Facebook groups. And I remember thinking, well, there are travel groups for women physicians like on Facebook, but

00:26:08 Speaker_01
there are no groups right now that are specific to earning credit card points, using them for travel. And I love talking about this and maybe five or 10 other people want to talk about this too.

00:26:17 Speaker_01
So let me just start, you know, a Facebook group for women physicians to learn how to use credit card points. And this would be great if I can find 10 people who want to talk about it. My husband's really supportive.

00:26:26 Speaker_01
He doesn't care at all about credit card points. I was like, he's tired of me talking about this all the time. Like, great. I'll, I'll find some other, someone else who will let me talk to them about this and coffee clutch.

00:26:35 Speaker_00
Yeah.

00:26:37 Speaker_01
And so, you know, in the end of 2021, I started the Point Me to First Class for Women Physicians Facebook group.

00:26:45 Speaker_01
And I was thrilled that five people, 10 people wanted to join this and talk about this thing too, because I'd always believed, again, physicians are really, really uniquely positioned to benefit from this.

00:26:57 Speaker_01
And so many of them just aren't even aware it exists. And I was like, if people could see hey, this thing is possible. If it's a good fit for you, or if you want to do this, there's so much potential here. And the Facebook group really grew.

00:27:11 Speaker_01
And it was a really lovely and beautiful experience because again, you know, in late 2020, early 2021, I knew this was a thing that I love doing. I love thinking about it. I love talking about it. I love teaching about it, but I had no belief that,

00:27:27 Speaker_01
it could go anywhere other than my just telling a couple people about it and really starting that Facebook group and seeing it grow over time and seeing kind of the level of conversations and interest people were having in there really helped me not so much to build belief because honestly, I still, I don't think I ever got to a point where I was like, Oh, now I think I can actually turn this into a business.

00:27:48 Speaker_01
I think what happened for me was more, wait a minute, I think this is a conversation that a lot of people want to have.

00:27:55 Speaker_01
And I'm willing to be wrong, or I'm willing to try this and see whether or not people actually do want to, you know, invest in a product that I create around this, or they want to invest in accelerating, you know, their ability to learn and use this information.

00:28:13 Speaker_01
And so, you know, it wasn't until the very, very end of 2022, very early 2023, that for the first time, I actually created something that then people, you know, could come to as a business product to be able to use, to learn how to do this.

00:28:29 Speaker_00
And I immediately signed up. I'm like, Oh my God, I need to get in. It's like, I'm in the group and I'm hearing things and it's phenomenal, but I'm someone who gets easily overwhelmed.

00:28:38 Speaker_00
And I'm like, you know what, I need to start at the basics because I don't understand this like a lot of these people do. I mean, you can get all kinds of information in the group. It's amazing. And Devin will share more about it.

00:28:48 Speaker_00
But when you first came out with this program, I was like, oh my gosh, I totally want this. This is incredible. And yeah, I was totally blown away by the amazingness in the program.

00:29:01 Speaker_01
And I thank you. I really appreciate your saying that. I think one of the things I realized was that, and this is true again for all of us, right?

00:29:08 Speaker_01
There are things that either because we just have a natural interest or a curiosity in, we are going to go and make that effort to go around and do the treasure hunt online. Right. Where that can be fun.

00:29:18 Speaker_01
And that was fun for me when I was learning how to do this. It was fun for me to read the 12 different, you know, points blogs and to go dig up information. And again, it's like, you're on this little treasure hunt.

00:29:28 Speaker_01
You put it together and your prize is that, you know, you're saving $20,000 or you're just not spending $20,000 to fly, you know, a lifelap business class seat, you know, somewhere amazing. But I also realized again,

00:29:40 Speaker_01
especially for the people who I love to teach, they tend to be very, very busy. They tend to be working full-time, which as we know for a lot of physicians, full-time is like 60, 70, 80 hours a week, right?

00:29:49 Speaker_01
Like 40 hours a week feels like part-time for a lot of us in our background. So, you know, a lot of us have families or we're caring for aging parents, or we have all of the things on our plate already.

00:29:58 Speaker_01
So it's not a question of, oh, are people smart enough to go out and figure this out on their own? Or Is the information available in 27 different places online? Yes. That's not really the issue.

00:30:09 Speaker_01
I think for a lot of people, they want something that is really, really easily accessible. I think a lot of us are used to learning in a very sort of linear way.

00:30:18 Speaker_01
Like tell me the absolute kind of bare minimum that I need to know from point A to point B so that this is simple for me to do.

00:30:25 Speaker_01
where I don't have to take the time or the energy again to pull 27 random things off the internet and try to put them into order for myself and try them out.

00:30:34 Speaker_01
And I think that's kind of where the course came from is that I saw so many people and I think yours is such a classic experience. You come into a Facebook group and the benefit is there's thousands of knowledgeable people.

00:30:46 Speaker_01
The drawback is you kind of feel like spaghetti is getting thrown at you from all angles. There's no organization, really, because it's all just random posts or random comments. And again, I think that for people who can see, oh, wait a minute,

00:31:01 Speaker_01
I understand I'm in an amazing position to really take advantage of this, but it's not obvious to me. How do I apply this to myself in a way that's easy? I'm not going to get overwhelmed.

00:31:10 Speaker_01
I'm not going to waste a bunch of my time on the stuff that really isn't that applicable to me.

00:31:14 Speaker_01
And that's where the idea of the points made easy course came from was what is the easiest way I can package this all together for someone to basically just come in and have it all laid out for them.

00:31:23 Speaker_01
Because my goal is not that you're going to spend three, four, five, six years trolling around the internet for fun. Like I did. You know, like getting all this information.

00:31:30 Speaker_00
Yeah, you've accumulated all the information and you do it very linearly. Again, I'm a very kind of logical, like probably most physicians, like what's the stepwise approach?

00:31:39 Speaker_00
And it's so organized and like, you've got videos and then like, oh, download this PDF. Oh my gosh, I love it. I've got so many. saved, even just like, these are the credit cards and these are the airlines that they, you know, are affiliated with.

00:31:55 Speaker_00
So many beautiful things that you just bring together. So it's like one-stop shopping. It's more amazing than Target, people. It's more amazing than Target.

00:32:04 Speaker_01
You have to join. My goal is I want people to be out there traveling, right? My goal is not, oh, are you watching the videos inside the course? Even though I think that's lovely when people do, right? It's great.

00:32:17 Speaker_01
Are you able to use this information to do the thing you actually want to do? do, right? Like have that trip with your children, right? Sit on the beach in Costa Rica with your partner. I think that is the beautiful outcome and the beautiful result.

00:32:32 Speaker_01
Not everybody is going to be as gratified learning the minutia like I am like for me.

00:32:37 Speaker_00
Yeah. Yeah. But you, but you make that really clear, which I also love you. You start with, Let's dream a little bit." Which again, I think is so important for us women physicians to do.

00:32:48 Speaker_00
We kind of got on this treadmill that's moving so fast and we're very exhausted. And people hear me talk about burnout all the time on this course, but let's dream a little bit. What do you desire? This is your one precious life.

00:33:00 Speaker_00
What would you love to do? And I love that you start with that and say, okay, now let's make that happen. How can we do it? And then again, you give several different avenues.

00:33:08 Speaker_00
Again, these are not spoiler alerts, but definitely people, we'll share how to sign up for this. Cause you're certainly going to want to, but you have several different avenues.

00:33:16 Speaker_00
Like, do you want to go all in and get all the credit cards and get all the points? Or do you want to do it more simply? And again, I'm sort of like a less is more simple.

00:33:23 Speaker_00
How can I get, you know, big bang for my buck sort of, but you've got all kinds of different avenues. So it's not a one size fits all, which I think is delightful.

00:33:33 Speaker_01
Really, I appreciate your saying that.

00:33:35 Speaker_01
And I think one of the things that I experienced again when I was learning how to do this was that, you know, I felt like a lot of the information that was on the internet, again, this is no fault of anybody who's, you know, doing points education, was that it wasn't really focused to a lot of the scenarios that I think a lot of physicians find themselves in.

00:33:51 Speaker_01
Like nobody was talking about if you want to, you know, how can you actually earn credit card points for doing things like paying down your student loans or contributing to your kids 529 plans?

00:34:00 Speaker_01
Like the things that a lot of us are putting, you know, a not insignificant amount of financial resources against my question is always, okay, how can I do that? And, and earn credit card points.

00:34:10 Speaker_01
And there were so many scenarios where I felt like there wasn't information about how do I take the things that are really real financial priorities or financial investments for me and turn that into an easy way to earn credit card points.

00:34:24 Speaker_01
And again, I don't expect every single points educator to speak to a specific, you know, population, but that was my population. Right. And I think I remember this moment too, when I was sitting in my practice.

00:34:37 Speaker_01
So I mentioned, I had joined a small private practice right outside of training and we used to have these meetings. There were eight physicians in the practice where, you know, once a month they would kind of have, a review of the billing.

00:34:49 Speaker_01
What did we bill out? What did we collect? What are some of the major expenses? I'm a pathologist. We had an independent laboratory. What are the things the laboratory needs to invest in? Just these broad overview financial types of topics. Invariably,

00:35:06 Speaker_01
it's not cheap to run a medical practice, right? So there would be a conversation about, oh, you know, we need a brand new immunostainer to run our own immunostains in the lab. Like, should we spend X hundreds of thousands of dollars on that?

00:35:17 Speaker_01
Or should we do sort of like the rental model, right? Where we just pay like a monthly subscription fee, things like reagents, you know? I mean, when you are running a business, especially a medical practice,

00:35:28 Speaker_01
you're talking about significant investments in things. And I remember I had been learning about all this stuff just for my own personal benefit.

00:35:33 Speaker_01
And I remember sitting in those meetings and realizing immediately, Oh my gosh, if these guys had any idea, you know, that this was a potential, it's so easy to get a business credit card and to be earning millions and millions of points for these expenses.

00:35:49 Speaker_01
And I think, and you know, they had no interest in it, which was fine. You know, they had some big,

00:35:53 Speaker_00
I'll take out a credit card and pay for the reagent.

00:35:56 Speaker_01
I mean, I wanted to like tear my hair out because they were like, and I get this. I mean, they could have different priorities than me. I mean, they're obviously running this practice, but you know, they're like, oh no, we don't need that.

00:36:05 Speaker_01
We've got, you know, a credit card from the local credit union where it's like, they're not getting any cash back. They're not getting any points. I'm like, okay, okay. You get to make your own decisions. But I remember thinking,

00:36:15 Speaker_01
Oh my gosh, this is such an opportunity, right? And you do not have to be a business owner to benefit from this.

00:36:21 Speaker_01
But if you are a business owner, again, it is so easy to quickly turn so many of your expenses into credit card points and get, again, not an insignificant amount of value out of this.

00:36:32 Speaker_01
I'm not talking about save credit card points for five years, and then you can fly one-way economy from Chicago to Florida for a weekend. I mean, that's great if you want to do that. But

00:36:41 Speaker_01
No, I'm talking about saving tens of thousands of dollars, you know, on travel expenses on an annual basis. And I think a lot of us would agree, oh, that would make a significant dent in my life or that would make a significant impact in my life.

00:36:54 Speaker_01
And that is what I love to teach and show people.

00:36:57 Speaker_00
And it's incredible. And I love how you share stories and so many other people share stories. And again, you have a podcast. So if people want to hear some of these stories, tell us about that.

00:37:07 Speaker_00
And then we'll get into one other thing that I want to make sure I brought up.

00:37:10 Speaker_01
Yeah, of course. So my podcast is just called the Point Me to First Class podcast. And really my aim is, again, to educate people about just what is the potential and the possibility here so people can decide, is this a good fit for me or not?

00:37:22 Speaker_01
Because I'm not someone who thinks every single person should want to do this. I do think There's so many people who are in an amazing position.

00:37:29 Speaker_01
And if they understood that, they could make a great decision for themselves about whether or not they really want to pursue this as a hobby. So I do a lot of just basic points, education there.

00:37:39 Speaker_01
It is focused towards people who have higher than average expenses, because I think that is the reality for a lot of physicians and or business owners. And then also, of course, share stories about here are some of the amazing things.

00:37:51 Speaker_00
Yeah, I love those stories.

00:37:53 Speaker_01
Yeah, I do too. I still get ideas from different people. I do a lot of super fun things with my points and there's still so many things I've never done with points that I love to hear that other people are doing. And it's a whole range of things.

00:38:05 Speaker_01
You can do solo travel, you can do family travel, you can do domestic, international. Again, some people love doing only economy travels. They can stretch their points over multiple trips. And then there's people like me where

00:38:17 Speaker_01
Again, I never would have flown premium economy or business or first class paying out of pocket cash, but I've taken some pretty incredible trips just because points have made it possible.

00:38:28 Speaker_01
And it's just it's fun for people to hear about those stories.

00:38:32 Speaker_00
And to know that it's like possible for you too, right? Cause again, I have thoughts, you know, oh, I'm just a family doc and all these things. It's like, wait a minute. No, I've got four kids. Do you know how much money we spend in the grocery store?

00:38:46 Speaker_00
All these things. So even if you just keep it that simple and you don't have a business, there's so many ways that I think you use the terminology, like leverage what you already spend. Like it's so perfect. It's just like, ah, yeah, it's just like,

00:38:59 Speaker_00
another area of wealth in your life that a lot of people are unaware of. And I love that you're shutting a light on it and making it more possible for people, again, no matter what people desire, whether they want to fly out of the academy.

00:39:10 Speaker_00
I mean, a family of six, I'm like, let's just get somewhere. I mean, seriously.

00:39:14 Speaker_01
That's a concern. Right. And for me, I've noticed that, too. Again, I have a family of four, but even trying to get us somewhere for my kids' spring break when it seems like everybody else is on spring break, too.

00:39:23 Speaker_01
So all the flights are ridiculously expensive. It's like just getting a family for an economy to go somewhere for spring break this year. Again, I mean, we we took our kids to Costa Rica.

00:39:36 Speaker_01
flights were costing like $2,500 round trip per person in economy. And I was just like, no, that's a no for me. I'm not spending $10,000 to fly the four of us in economy to Costa Rica.

00:39:46 Speaker_01
And that's where points can come in and truly make travel possible that otherwise you would say, oh, hey, maybe this isn't going to be for me right now. And I think that is really incredible.

00:39:58 Speaker_00
Yeah, I love it. And I love that it again, no matter how big you're dreaming or no matter how much money you're spending, how many points you have, like it can benefit you at any level, right?

00:40:08 Speaker_00
Again, whether you want to go all in and get all, you know, 100 million credit cards, and label them so beautifully. Because I tell you what, Devon teaches you how to do that. She's very organized. And I love that part of you. I love a lot of you, right?

00:40:22 Speaker_00
But like that's, I love that you're like so organized and detail oriented. For someone who gets a little scattered like me, like that's really helpful.

00:40:28 Speaker_00
But I want to let you know that if you're just thinking like, maybe this sounds like something I want to dip my toe in,

00:40:34 Speaker_00
Please do come and listen to devin's podcast join her group and learn how to join the program so you learn how to do this again i'm still call myself a total beginner and yet i'm feeling more comfortable and i'm accruing points and i'm understanding how i can shift all the points i haven't done all the.

00:40:51 Speaker_00
Around the world travel yet and yet. If I wanted to, I could, right? And so I just love the way you make it so accessible, whether you're like the quote unquote top of your points game or just a beginner.

00:41:03 Speaker_00
I think everything that you share would be beneficial.

00:41:07 Speaker_01
Oh, I really appreciate that. And yeah, I think it's really nice for people to have a very kind of low level commitment option for how do I just start learning about that? And that is certainly why I have a podcast, but there's a lot of podcasts.

00:41:19 Speaker_01
And I think that is that beauty of having very easily accessible information is that you can at least get started without a huge commitment, right?

00:41:27 Speaker_01
You don't have to make any investment other than your time, you know, in the beginning to just start learning about this.

00:41:32 Speaker_01
And then if it is something that intrigues you, if it is something that you really want to accelerate, you know, your ability to do and to do really well, then there are always options for how you can get more involved from there.

00:41:42 Speaker_00
Yeah, I absolutely love it. And again, it's important to have conversations with your partners.

00:41:47 Speaker_00
They may or may not be that interested, but the way Devon explains things, when I said that you were doing this program, Paul's like, okay, that sounds, I trust her. Cause they had met at a conference years ago. I was like, yep, she's bright.

00:41:58 Speaker_00
Let's, let's go with it. But then there was something else where you were talking about how, you know, is it worthwhile to use a credit card to pay for taxes, right? Like, you know, that's a that's a big outlay, too.

00:42:09 Speaker_00
And I remember I don't remember the exact details, but you have this beautiful, like, mathematical equation like this is so cool. Like, I am totally nerding out. I love this.

00:42:18 Speaker_00
So, again, you guys, this is like really great information that can just help expand your world. Why wouldn't we want that?

00:42:27 Speaker_01
Yeah. Well, I agree.

00:42:28 Speaker_00
I mean, no, seriously. And so there are so many cool things you can do, whether it's like going somewhere with your family or doing an around the world adventure.

00:42:37 Speaker_00
Before I started recording, I said to Devin, because I love living vicariously through her, although I get to do fun stuff too. I said, where are you going next? And tell me, cause it really, it just like, it expanded my mind.

00:42:49 Speaker_01
Yes. So where I'm going next, actually three weeks from now, the time that we're recording, I am going to South Africa for a week by myself. So solo travel has always been incredibly impactful and important to me. It remains important to me.

00:43:02 Speaker_01
And so I am taking myself to South Africa for about 10 days. So I'm going to a private game reserve that's down there.

00:43:09 Speaker_01
One of my actual favorite parts now of taking trips is I am using points to fly business class there, which is an amazing experience. So I get to fly one of my favorite products, which is Qatar Airlines.

00:43:21 Speaker_01
They have this really, really famous business class product called Q Suites. And so I'm going to fly that on the way there. And then the way home, I'm flying Turkish Airlines business class, which I'm equally excited about.

00:43:31 Speaker_01
These are the things that you start to learn when you go down this rabbit hole. certain airlines are really famous for certain things. And Turkish Airlines is really, really famous for their onboard catering.

00:43:40 Speaker_01
They have an actual chef on the airplane who makes meals and they come around with this little trolley and you get to pick whatever you want. It's incredible. So that's part of it. For me now, it used to be that the actual

00:43:53 Speaker_01
flight, the actual part of getting somewhere was like the thing that you just had to tolerate and get through. So then you could be in your destination. And now for me, the actual flying is part of the journey and part of the fun.

00:44:05 Speaker_01
And that is just, again, for me, like, that's just so much fun that I get to do that, that becomes part of the travel experience. So I am really, really looking forward to that trip.

00:44:16 Speaker_00
Well, I'm thrilled for you. And again, my listeners often hear me say, like, it's so important that we take care of ourselves. And I think that example lets people know it's totally okay. And it's more than okay.

00:44:30 Speaker_00
We are worthy of taking care of ourselves. We are worthy of taking time and doing fun, what we may have in the past called like luxurious things. Like, sure, yeah, enjoy that. You work hard and now you get to enjoy.

00:44:42 Speaker_00
You mentioned like, oh, a lot of people feel really guilty. And my thought is like, You know what?

00:44:47 Speaker_00
We can stay really small and allow all the socialization and make us feel really guilty and or we can say like, oh, there's that guilt again, because I think that I should be staying here.

00:44:55 Speaker_01
Right.

00:44:56 Speaker_00
But I'm going to choose to remember like I'm taking care of me. And what a beautiful example I'm giving my kids.

00:45:02 Speaker_01
Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. My children, I'm telling you they, and I love this, that they actually know like different cabins, you know, on an airplane, they understand that some airplanes have, you know, lie flat beds.

00:45:14 Speaker_01
They call them the night, night airplanes, where if they get to go on an airplane, then I love it and go to sleep. And I just think about, you know, again, My mom did a lot of amazing things.

00:45:25 Speaker_01
You know, I think there's probably nothing more challenging than being a single parent and, you know, raising kids on your own. And she didn't have the opportunity, you know, to necessarily provide some things to us.

00:45:38 Speaker_01
And I look at points now and the fact that, you know, I have the option when I travel with my children to sometimes be able to give them an experience that I never had growing up. And I just think that can't be a bad thing, right?

00:45:52 Speaker_01
Like I never worried about this conversation about like, oh, you're going to spoil your children by giving them a certain experience. I just personally don't think that's true.

00:46:01 Speaker_01
You know, you talk about memories and I want my kids to remember, wow, you know, my parents spent time with us or we had, you know, school and we had adventures, you know, and that's what I want to give them.

00:46:15 Speaker_00
Right. Which is, I think, totally possible because I've had a whole gamut of experiences, including like everyone shoved in the back of the, you know, I was going to say the pickup truck, but we didn't have a pickup truck, right?

00:46:25 Speaker_00
The back of the Velari. Hello, dad. Right? Like we were all shoved back in there and we'd go camping. Those were amazing and wonderful. And we got to do other big, fun adventures around the world too. So I think

00:46:36 Speaker_00
All of it is great, and it really is that time together and memories. Now, I would love to keep chatting with you, but I'm just being mindful of our time.

00:46:44 Speaker_00
I think we're gonna have to have you come back on so we can talk about, we could even just have a talk about, oh my gosh, just women and adventure travel, solo travel rather, and how to feel safe and how to overcome these things that are coming up in our brain.

00:46:56 Speaker_00
If you'd be open to that, I think that would be an amazing topic amongst others. But people who are listening and are super curious, how I can find out more about this? How can I follow the famous Dr. Devin Gimbel? Tell us all the things.

00:47:10 Speaker_00
How can they find your program? How can they find your Facebook group? Name your podcast again? And is there anything that I'm forgetting? I know we could keep going.

00:47:18 Speaker_01
No, I don't think you're forgetting anything at all. So my business is called Point Me to First Class. And I will just say, because I really want to be explicit about this, is that

00:47:26 Speaker_01
That's not because I think that people should only want to fly business or first class. To me, all that speaks to is I want people to be able to learn to use points for whatever travel experience feels like first class to them.

00:47:39 Speaker_00
Yeah. At any rate, I will just say that I'm not there yet, but I love travel. And again, with my family, I love just getting points and like getting somewhere. Like we just went to Peru. It was amazing.

00:47:48 Speaker_00
And for now, I'd love to talk to you more about that, right? Oh my gosh. I'm dying to hear about that.

00:47:54 Speaker_00
But yeah, you don't need to be afraid or put off by that because this is just how can you use the money that you're already spending to do something that is fun for you.

00:48:03 Speaker_01
A hundred percent. So you can find me at pointmetofirstclass.com. That's just my website. You can find everything I do through that website, but if you want to check out the podcast, again, just

00:48:12 Speaker_01
point me to first class, wherever you like to listen to podcasts. If you do identify as a female physician, then you are more than welcome to join the point me to first class for women physicians, Facebook group.

00:48:22 Speaker_01
You can just search for it on Facebook.

00:48:24 Speaker_01
And then the program of the course that I offer folks who really want to have, again, this more supported environment where they can learn how to turn their expenses into amazing travel for themselves using credit card points. The course is called,

00:48:37 Speaker_01
points made easy so you can find that again through my website as well. So those are the best places to find out more about how to learn about credit card points and how to get started.

00:48:47 Speaker_00
So awesome. Highly advised taking the course. It's amazing. I will put links in the show notes. So I will get that and make it just real easy for you folks. Just click there and let's start like traveling the world. Let's go. Let's do it. I'm game.

00:49:02 Speaker_00
Thank you so much for spending time with us today.

00:49:05 Speaker_01
I can't wait to have you back another time. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And I agree. There's so many amazing conversations I cannot wait to have with you.

00:49:12 Speaker_00
Bye!