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Episode: The Yankees Survive, Milwaukee and Denver Struggle, Paolo’s Thriving, and Boston Is Frightening With John Jastremski and Kirk Goldsberry
Author: The Ringer
Duration: 01:57:34
Episode Shownotes
The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by John Jastremski to discuss the Yankees preventing a Dodgers sweep and winning Game 4, the case for a Yankees comeback, series predictions, and more (3:34). Then Bill talks with Kirk Goldsberry about his five favorite NBA developments so far this season, including the
Bucks' and Nuggets' problems, JJ Redick's impressive coaching, unlikely 2-seeds in the East, and the buzz-saw Celtics (30:52). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kirk Goldsberry and John Jastremski Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Full Transcript
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This episode is brought to you by the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks from the bold new exterior to the performance and tech features like intelligent all wheel drive and a Bose personal plus sound system.
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Always monitor traffic and weather conditions. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. We finished up Scary Month for the Rewatchables with Halloween 4, The Return of Michael Myers. It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan.
00:02:16 Speaker_02
We had a lot of laughs. I know it's a scary movie, but it's also an unintentionally hilarious movie, and we laughed a lot. You can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube page because we put the whole video up there.
00:02:28 Speaker_02
We have a lot of videos going up there, including the Halloween episode that Chris Ryan and I did is gonna be going up Later this week, you can watch all the videos and clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel.
00:02:41 Speaker_02
Coming up on this podcast, John Jastrzemski is gonna talk World Series with me after the Dodgers blew it. They could've swept the Yankees. They did not. The Yankees fought and they survived. They forced the game five.
00:02:54 Speaker_02
We're gonna talk about the World Series. The state of the New York sports scene with JJ. And then Kurt Goldsberry came on and we talked a lot of basketball.
00:03:04 Speaker_02
This is not an overreaction of the first week, just things that jumped out to us, developments, things of note. And that is the heart of this podcast.
00:03:13 Speaker_02
One of the things we talked about was the Nuggets, because we were both very concerned about what we had seen from the Nuggets. We did it before the Nuggets-Nets game tonight.
00:03:21 Speaker_02
And after watching that game, as I watched the World Series at the same time, that did not really change my opinion on my concerns about the Nuggets. They barely outlasted a Brooklyn team in overtime. They got 22 points from Westbrook off the bench.
00:03:36 Speaker_02
And it's honestly hilarious to watch him on the Snuggets team. I texted Russo in-house that it's like watching Shane Gillis stumble into a Daniel Day-Lewis movie.
00:03:46 Speaker_02
It's the Snuggets team that has all this ball movement and precision and they're just surgically picking apart teams. Then Westbrook comes in like he's shot out of a cannon. He's actually pretty good tonight.
00:03:57 Speaker_02
But it was not opposed to mean-facing it and talking shit. You know, anything he gives them is a bonus. But the fact that they needed him just to take Brooklyn to overtime, not a great sign.
00:04:11 Speaker_02
So Kirk and I broke a lot of that down with the Nuggets, what we're seeing, and all the other teams that we were just kind of intrigued by. So that's coming up. Speaking of Denver, I'm coming to town.
00:04:26 Speaker_02
to watch the Nuggets and see Jokic in person in Denver, which I've never seen. I'm bringing Rasila with me, and we're gonna do a live show when we're in town. That's right. It's gonna be in December.
00:04:35 Speaker_02
The Bill Simmons podcast will be live in Denver on Wednesday, December 4th. We'll be at the Fillmore Auditorium, and you can join us. Tickets go on sale this Friday, November 1st, 10 a.m. Mountain Time.
00:04:48 Speaker_02
All information will be on the ringer.com slash events page. We hope to see you there. I can almost guarantee we're going to have a special guest, but, uh, Rosso loves Denver. He's going to be in a great mood. I love Yokage.
00:05:02 Speaker_02
I'm going to be in a great mood. I love Colorado. So does for solo. Can't wait. So December 4th live show. See you there. All right, let's start the podcast. JJ coming in first, our friends from pro. All right, taping this 11.40 Eastern time.
00:05:36 Speaker_02
John Jastrzemski, aka JJ, my friend, is in New York City right now. Refused to go to game four. Abandoned the Yankees. Abandoned them. Left them on the side of the road like a stray dog.
00:05:48 Speaker_02
and they went and they kept the World Series alive and they beat the Dodgers. They killed them, actually. It was a bullpen pitching game for the Dodgers, this new 2020s way of how we do World Series games. I still really enjoyed myself.
00:06:03 Speaker_02
J.J., have you started to talk yourself into 2004 ALCS, the bizarro version, revenge, comeback?
00:06:14 Speaker_01
Billy, don't let us get hot. Don't let us get one. Don't let us get one. Look, you're selling me out here, which is a little unfair. I was at game three.
00:06:23 Speaker_01
I am bringing our esteemed producer, Stefan, who helps me out all the time with New York, New York for game five. And I did a good deed. I didn't want to go to three straight games. I let my mom and dad go to their first ever World Series game.
00:06:35 Speaker_01
And I get the good karma of the Yankees avoiding the 1976 sweep which was their World Series hiatus from, what was it, 64 to 76. They played a big red machine. They got absolutely smoked. They needed to show some pride tonight.
00:06:52 Speaker_01
They needed to go out and show me a little bit of fight. And I don't care if it's a bullpen game. I don't care who the Dodgers were throwing. We get the result in New York that we desired, at least for putting off elimination for another day.
00:07:05 Speaker_02
A lot of people, your Game 3 podcast has only been up for 24 hours. A lot of people are saying it's the saddest content that's been produced since Manchester by the Sea. The Casey Affleck movie, I don't know.
00:07:17 Speaker_02
You were really in a dark place after Game 3.
00:07:19 Speaker_01
And you've seen me in a dark place before. I mean, I was superimposed on your couch during wildcard weekend after the Dolphins played in what, negative 20 degrees? Yeah.
00:07:28 Speaker_01
Like, I think you've heard me and we're in our text thread with Jacko where I get very angry and ticked off after these games.
00:07:36 Speaker_01
That's the way I felt after game one, when the manager decides to keep Tim Hill in the bullpen and goes to Mr. Cortez, which was managerial malpractice. But yeah, game three was just sad. Like the new Yankee stadium bill.
00:07:49 Speaker_01
doesn't have the same energy that the old place once did. That said, 30 minutes before the game, which never happens because you have all these corporate seats, the legends, the whole deal. 30 minutes before the game, everybody was in their seat.
00:08:03 Speaker_01
Everybody's there for introductions. Everybody's there when Jeter's throwing out the first pitch. The place was ready to go berserk.
00:08:10 Speaker_01
for Game 3 and it just went right out the window when future first ballot Hall of Famer Freddie Freeman said, see you later. And it was the minute the ball was hit, you know, it was gone and the Yankees were dead to rights.
00:08:23 Speaker_01
And I wondered if we were going to get the same thing in Game 4 when, oh, by the way, they pitched to Freddie Freeman, which if the Yankees are smart, stop pitching to this guy. I know Teoscar Hernandez is good.
00:08:34 Speaker_01
I know the Dodgers got a bunch of dudes. You cannot let Freddie Freeman beat you when he's got home runs now in six consecutive World Series games. But they fall behind, they get off the mat.
00:08:43 Speaker_01
And how about Volpe, who has been much maligned, big Yankee prospect, didn't have a big regular season, but he's been solid in the postseason.
00:08:52 Speaker_01
Bill, when he has that base running gaffe and he doesn't score, I'm like, geez, this is going to haunt him now for the offseason. Changes it with one swing and a bat.
00:09:02 Speaker_02
Yeah. And by the way, he probably scores anyway after the base running gaff, right? It was bad, but it wasn't that bad.
00:09:06 Speaker_01
Well, he would have scored, but the problem was Wells would have gotten the third base.
00:09:09 Speaker_02
Right, right, right.
00:09:10 Speaker_01
And you would have had a runner on third one out. And that ground ball from Verdugo, which is what he loves to do, by the way. What an absolute stiff that guy is. I know you hated him. You said you're going to hate this guy.
00:09:21 Speaker_01
First month of the year, Jaco and I were talking ourselves into Verdugo. He stinks. I can't believe the Yankees are still playing him. But, you know, the ground ball you hit should have
00:09:30 Speaker_02
He had a good at-bat today when you had the lead near the end of the game. So you're down three nothing, a sweep. I gotta say, I was like a pig in shit today because I'm thinking like.
00:09:41 Speaker_01
That's why you booked me. Who are we kidding? That's why you booked me. You were ready for the funeral.
00:09:44 Speaker_02
We said win or lose, you're coming on. But I was, there was a scenario where you get swept Judge goes 0-4 again. Soto goes to the Mets.
00:09:54 Speaker_02
Judge becomes hit or curse shot, basically, and the Yanks miss their window, and it's a whole winter of, oh my God, and now we can't fire Boone or Cashman, because we made the World Series. We're stuck with this team.
00:10:06 Speaker_02
We're not as good as we were last year. So now, at least she won a game. Judge gets going with a crucial RBI, up six. Looking good.
00:10:18 Speaker_01
You mean Mr. June? You mean Mr. June? Did you see the picture, by the way, in Los Angeles of Winfield and Aaron Judge standing literally right next to each other around the cage? Yeah, Mr. May and Mr. June, dude.
00:10:31 Speaker_02
Maybe it's like a height thing. Maybe it's like the taller, slugger people. But Smoltz, he had that hit and Smoltz was like, maybe that'll get him going.
00:10:41 Speaker_02
You know, sometimes that does happen where these meaningless games and somebody can kind of relax and unlock a tiny bit. I don't know.
00:10:48 Speaker_02
Tomorrow you've got Cole versus Flaherty and all the Red Sox fans that I'm on the text thread with are like, fuck, this is going back to LA now because Flaherty can't beat Cole. I'm not as sold.
00:11:01 Speaker_01
So Flaherty, it's interesting because in the NLCS against the Mets, he threw a gem in game one. He was in the exact situation that he's going to be in in game five, up three to one, and the Mets pounded him. Alonzo hit a home run in the first inning.
00:11:16 Speaker_01
He was out of the game in the second and the third inning. He had nothing. I think Flaherty can go either way. Here's the thing with Cole, and I know I'm gonna come on, the New Yorker's making excuses for the ace of the staff, he's not 100% right.
00:11:28 Speaker_01
And that's why in game one.
00:11:30 Speaker_02
You've been saying that for a while, by the way.
00:11:31 Speaker_01
He's not, because he's not missing bats, he's kind of grinding it through, like I'm not gonna be surprised at the end of this year if something is announced with Cole. I don't know how serious it might be, but he's kind of gutting this out.
00:11:43 Speaker_01
That's why, what was it, seventh inning, They basically went out to the mound, Boone didn't yank him right away. They kind of conversed when he was only at, what, like 85 or 90 pitches, when I'm like, wow, this is a quick hook.
00:11:56 Speaker_01
I don't know if you're getting vintage virtuoso Cole, but he needs to give you six strong. That, to me, is the pathway for the Yankees to win a game.
00:12:04 Speaker_01
Six strong, Kanely, who's good against the lefties, who you didn't see tonight, and then your buddy Luke Weaver, who you could have had in your fantasy league, who is a little- 21 pitches tonight. He's got a little bit of a screw loose, which I like.
00:12:18 Speaker_01
I think you kind of need that if you're going to be a successful closer. The guy was a failed starter. He was solid in the Yankee bullpen all year, but then kind of got that role in September and it's kind of hit the ground running.
00:12:29 Speaker_01
He was nails tonight, Simmons. Those were big, big outs he got for him.
00:12:32 Speaker_02
The case for a possible comeback. you couldn't have gotten a worse judge performance so far, maybe he can actually carry, and if he does anything in game five, the crowd's gonna go out of their mind. But then, Otani is officially not looking right.
00:12:49 Speaker_02
And Freeman kind of switched bodies with Otani in a lot of ways, and he's been crushing it, but if Freeman cools off at all with the way Otani looks, all of a sudden that Dodger lineup, becomes a little more palatable.
00:13:02 Speaker_02
And I also wonder, like, is there some weird karma from the fans that interfered with Mookie Betts? By the way, that was one of the- Those guys are now legends.
00:13:12 Speaker_01
That was one of the worst interferences I've ever seen in my life, because watching it live- What was worse?
00:13:17 Speaker_02
I can't think of one. Unless they punched Mookie in the face, how would that have been worse?
00:13:20 Speaker_01
I mean, the guy literally is, like, sticking his fingers in the glove, and you can tell Mookie's like, dude, just get the fuck off me, man. Get the fuck off me. But listen, here's the problem. There's a pathway for the Yankees getting this back to L.A.
00:13:32 Speaker_01
I think that's very viable. I think it's very feasible. Yankees hit it home, getting a little bit more confidence with the bats, Volpe, Wells down at the bottom of the order, and Flaherty being off this game.
00:13:42 Speaker_01
The problem I have thinking down the road, Rodin against the Dodger lineup, and you were at game two, He does not match up well. And I think he is mentally weak. I don't trust him at all. And the Yankees have seen Yamamoto twice.
00:13:57 Speaker_01
I went to the Friday night game in the regular season. He mowed him. You went to the game, game two on Saturday night. He mowed him. That is not a game where I say, wow, the Yankees are set up for success. However, if they get there, I'll take my chances.
00:14:13 Speaker_01
Why not? Can I get there? Can I get that? I may actually get on the plane Friday while joining the Yankees. They might let me on the charter. You never know.
00:14:21 Speaker_02
I'll tell you, if somebody has been in this spot as a fan, JJ, when you're down three nothing and you feel like all hope is gone, then you steal that fourth game.
00:14:30 Speaker_02
and then all of a sudden that fifth game, and then you hop on a plane, that pressure for the home team in that game six is pretty intense. That was the famous game where A-Rod slapped Arroyo.
00:14:41 Speaker_01
Well I was there, you don't have to tell me.
00:14:43 Speaker_01
I was in the right field bleachers, and this is pre-cell phone, this is pre-Twitter, so being in crummy seats at the old Yankee Stadium, even though I loved the right field bleachers, there was nothing like it, one of the most rowdy places you'll ever watch a game,
00:14:57 Speaker_01
Nobody knew that A-Rod slapped the ball. And as you know, as a diehard Red Sox fan and somebody who filmed a documentary on the 2004 ALCS, they had two replay reviews before replay reviews were a thing. I mean, they didn't do this in baseball.
00:15:14 Speaker_01
They did it on the bell horn play down the left field line. And then everyone at Yankee Stadium is like, wow. This is this is how the Red Sox are going to lose this year with A-Rod slapping a ball.
00:15:23 Speaker_01
Because in the outfit, you're thinking he just ran right into him. Yeah. And we know, unfortunately, how that went. But when was it for you that you stopped? Because you had 86 years. It is your father. All the history in New England.
00:15:36 Speaker_01
When was the moment for you? It wasn't a game for I don't believe it was in game four. When did you start to believe?
00:15:45 Speaker_02
Game five, at some point in game five. But mainly because I was like almost, my nervous system was shutting down.
00:15:53 Speaker_02
But by the time we got to game six, when that review happened of the A-Rod play, that was where the 86 years of history comes in, where of course they're gonna review it and decide it's, oh no, it's fine, and then the Yankees get the play, and that's just how it goes with the Red Sox.
00:16:09 Speaker_02
That brought back like Ed Armbrister and Carlton Fisk, like all the shit from the past. And when that went the Red Sox way, it became one of those, oh.
00:16:19 Speaker_02
Okay, but I mean, the way we were running through pitchers in those four games, you just felt, you never felt safe.
00:16:26 Speaker_02
Even when we had that huge lead in game seven, didn't feel safe, because we just, we had put so much miles on the pitching staff, which I think you're gonna be in the same situation if this keeps going, because you're gonna need 40 pitches from Leiter and from Weaver every game.
00:16:42 Speaker_02
And that's just the way it's gonna go if you win four straight.
00:16:45 Speaker_01
They have an off day if they could ever win Game 5. And if I'm not mistaken, the Red Sox and the Yankees did not have an off day.
00:16:52 Speaker_02
No, no, no, because we had the rain. The rain before Game 3, yeah.
00:16:55 Speaker_01
And I remember that game was an afternoon game, Game 5. It was like a 4 or 5 o'clock game. I remember I ran a track meet, hustled home, watched the game. It was like 4 or 5 o'clock.
00:17:05 Speaker_01
Simmons, the game was going until like 1130, 12 o'clock, and then the Red Sox were all giddy. They're chugging their Jack Daniels, and the Yankees had no pitching. That was the dirty little secret for the Yankees.
00:17:15 Speaker_01
After Messina in game five, they had Lieber, who was okay, but game seven, it was either the corpse of Kevin Brown, who was a stiff, and then they're going to Vasquez out of the bullpen because El Duque was hurt.
00:17:26 Speaker_01
El Duque getting hurt was a huge underrated factor that cost the Yankees that series. But yeah, it's problematic, but the off day, Get length out of Cole, find a way, and then, hey, put all the pressure on the Dodgers.
00:17:40 Speaker_02
So this is like, this is even better than a sweep that you got sucked back in after your Manchester by the Sea podcast.
00:17:48 Speaker_01
It beats the alternative I'd rather have the hope and be sucked in going to a game then get swept I mean it got swept by the Astros two years ago And it was like it felt different because it was like put me out of my misery I know I'm gonna sound like a spoiler on Yankee fan.
00:18:02 Speaker_01
That's fine. I'm gonna do that 15 years not going to the World Series bill That's a long time, man. There's 20-year-olds that don't remember Yankees World Series.
00:18:12 Speaker_01
You will not believe, so I did a show Saturday night after the Yankees clinched the pennant, and I had so many young Yankee fans calling in.
00:18:21 Speaker_01
Yankee fans like under the age of 27 that were just like head over heels so giddy and so excited because they're like, JJ, you don't get it. We don't know what this feels like.
00:18:30 Speaker_01
The last time we were in the World Series as Yankee fans, I was six, I was seven, I was eight.
00:18:35 Speaker_01
I'm like, dude, you guys are making... As someone that lived through the whole 90s and the 2000s, and now I'm getting up there in age, it kind of made me feel old, Bill. I'm not going to lie, man.
00:18:45 Speaker_02
It's like when you talk to the Dolphin fans who remember the last time they won a playoff game. Uh, well, more than 94.
00:18:51 Speaker_01
No, 2001. Thanks. Thanks. Uh, it was the idiot liquored up kicker game with advantage.
00:18:58 Speaker_02
Yeah, that's right.
00:18:59 Speaker_01
Pate Manning. Dolphins in field were beating Pate Manning. May never see another one again.
00:19:03 Speaker_02
On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do New York Yankee fans like this Yankee team? Like a 7?
00:19:09 Speaker_01
It's somewhere in the middle. I think they're never going to be in love with management. And I think it's kind of, for those of you who watch the Simpsons, you know, when Mr. Burns puts the sign up in Homer's office, don't forget you're here forever.
00:19:23 Speaker_01
That's kind of how they feel with Cashman and Boone. They're here forever. And now that they've gone to the world series. You don't love it.
00:19:30 Speaker_02
It's another four years at least.
00:19:31 Speaker_01
No, guaranteed. Every bit of it. But the Yankee fan loves Soto. Not likes. Loves Soto. They like Cole. They want Judge to be the man. And I think everything about Aaron Judge is amazing. He's a great dude. He's a great leader. All the kids want to be him.
00:19:49 Speaker_01
He's performed in the regular season But I think he's the guy now that whenever this goes south, he's gonna get his MVP award You know, he's gonna be doing the media tour in a month from now But if he does not have another moment or two in this postseason, it's gonna be such a classic.
00:20:06 Speaker_01
Yeah, but yeah, and that yeah, but would only go up times one million if he's not teammates with Juan Soto.
00:20:16 Speaker_01
I think, Bill, if the Yankees re-sign Juan Soto in the offseason, because there's this angst, the Mets weren't a serious player for Judge because Cohen got the team. I think he wanted to play nice with Howe. They were never really in on Judge.
00:20:31 Speaker_05
Yeah.
00:20:32 Speaker_01
They will be really in on Soto. They're going to offer Soto $550, $600 million. It's going to be an outrageous contract. And what choice do the Yankees have?
00:20:42 Speaker_01
You're going to let this guy, who's 25 and is a future Hall of Famer as a hitter, leave when you're not trying to win a championship. So I gave you a long-winded answer.
00:20:52 Speaker_01
The Yankee fan, I think, is going to like this team that much more once they know Soto is going to be a part of it for years to come. I think there's that angst at the moment.
00:21:00 Speaker_02
I think the Dodgers have to be considered to be in play for Soto too, right? I can't see it, man. They have all that Otani money deferred. It's basically like they have money to spend right now on somebody.
00:21:13 Speaker_01
But if they win the World Series this year. If we're living in a world where they go and they win the World Series, are they going to have that sense of urgency?
00:21:21 Speaker_01
I kind of get the sense that Boris, that was a John Heyman story, kind of feel like Boris leaked that to his pal. Oh, I do. I think it's like, hey, everyone's saying Yankees-Mets. Come on, Johnny, go drum up the Dodger interest in Soto. I'd be stuck.
00:21:37 Speaker_01
Giants, to me, are more feasible because they're desperate. The Giants have not gotten a big free agent in forever. They missed out on Aaron Judge. I'd be more worried about them than the Dodgers personally.
00:21:48 Speaker_02
So I heard the vibe the like hour and a half to an hour to a half hour before the game today was that the vibe was weird in the stadium. What is game five going to be like now?
00:21:59 Speaker_01
Oh, I am far more energetic. Yeah. Because you're coming off a win. Like, I don't expect the vibe in any stadium to be good if you're down 3-0. I mean, you've been in a ton of buildings when you're down 3-0.
00:22:09 Speaker_02
The idea, what do you expect the fan to be? In 04, the vibe was we don't want to get fucking swept.
00:22:14 Speaker_01
That's the way I felt tonight. Yeah. Don't get swept. Don't get swept.
00:22:18 Speaker_02
But I don't think anybody had illusions of, if we get this, three more. It was just like, they beat us 19-8 in game three, and it was like, please don't get swept. Don't get embarrassed. These guys beat us last year, let's not get swept.
00:22:31 Speaker_02
And then it just kind of builds from there. But that's the genesis of it. And the problem for me with the Yankees, you guys are so bad at certain things that are these key essential playoff baseball things, like the base running and defense.
00:22:47 Speaker_02
you know, the manager. The fundamentals. Just like basic shit you need to just keep winning playoff rounds. And you're just kind of winning despite all of these things as I keep watching.
00:22:59 Speaker_02
And it would just be weird if that was a World Series team that makes this many like self-inflicted mistakes.
00:23:05 Speaker_01
I think it's totally fair. And listen, it was very costly in game one. I know the decision that Boone made going to Cortez is something that I roasted him on for an hour and a half. It was horrible.
00:23:16 Speaker_01
It's as bad as it gets, but it should have never gotten to that point. Soto, who I love and I want to resign him and I give him a zillion dollars. He is a butcher in the outfield. The idea that he was nominated for a gold glove is an absolute farce.
00:23:30 Speaker_01
How can anybody watch that guy and tell me he's a gold-glove caliber outfielder? Kike Hernandez hit a ball, game one. Should've been a double, he misplaced it into a triple.
00:23:39 Speaker_01
And then in the eighth inning, they scored the tying run because Guaybert Torres, who, I gotta be fair, he's been very good this postseason. He had a big home run tonight, he's done a good job in a leadoff spot. His baseball IQ stinks.
00:23:50 Speaker_01
Whether it's in the field, whether it's on the bases, this is something that has drove Yankee fans crazy for the last five years. He doesn't block a ball. And yeah, you're right. Like they run the bases terribly. They're an average defensive team.
00:24:04 Speaker_01
They have some really good defenders. Like it's not that they're all butchers. Like Rizzo is a very good first baseman. Volpe defensively is a very good shortstop.
00:24:12 Speaker_02
You could throw out base runners.
00:24:13 Speaker_01
Yeah, Wells behind the plate is a good catcher. And I give Chisholm a lot of credit. He's never played third base before. And they literally traded for him and said, hey, you're the third baseman.
00:24:24 Speaker_01
And it's not been perfect, but he hasn't made a total ass of himself. But yeah, that's not a team from like a base running fundamentals baseball IQ standpoint that you say, wow, that looks like a World Series winner.
00:24:36 Speaker_02
Totally fair. So you've had this pod with us for like three, four years. I can't even remember. At least three, right?
00:24:42 Speaker_01
2021. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:44 Speaker_02
So this New York stretch, this has been by far the most fun stretch of the pod. But where does it rank
00:24:51 Speaker_02
like last 25 years for new york sports with all the shit going on because even the teams like you have the jets who are two and six but have been like a content machine you have the giants who have the hard knocks that the unintentional comedy is through the roof um they're
00:25:09 Speaker_02
The owner claims he's not getting rid of the coach in the gym, but he probably is. You have the Knicks with all the big trades. You have the Nets basically gutting their team and trying to go for a draft. Like, it's just everywhere.
00:25:20 Speaker_02
And you have the Mets making the run. Everywhere you look, there's like New York storylines, which is kind of what we were hoping when we launched the pod, right? I mean, this is like the Nirvana.
00:25:31 Speaker_01
So I always was jealous of our buddy Frances and doggy that they got to live through the late 90s when they got the Knicks with Riley into Van Gundy, the Yankees dynasty, the Mets with Piazza. And I'm like, when am I going to get that in my career?
00:25:46 Speaker_01
Because I go back to 20. 2011 is when I started doing radio. So I've been doing stuff in the market for a decade, been doing the pot here with the ringer for three and a half years doing TV.
00:25:56 Speaker_01
This has been my favorite time as a sports professional in New York City. It's not even close, Bill. It's not even close. You had the Yankees in the World Series. You had the Mets come out of nowhere. Absolute nowhere. Double-digit games under 500.
00:26:10 Speaker_01
Winning the playoffs to get in the playoffs on the final day of the year in like the most dramatic way imaginable with Lindor. Then Alonzo in the wild card.
00:26:18 Speaker_01
They're down to their last out and he hits a home run to go and give him the lead and you get a crazy grimace, OMG, all that stuff. The Knicks are the most fun they've been since the Patrick Ewing days.
00:26:29 Speaker_01
Not that I'm a big hockey guy, but the Rangers were in the cup final. And you're right. The football teams, as crummy as they may be, it always seems to be something. So, yeah, full circle.
00:26:40 Speaker_01
This is the most enjoyable, like 12 month run I've had doing New York sports content as a broadcaster. As good as it gets.
00:26:49 Speaker_02
Just wait until the Giannis-Nicks trade rumors start, as soon as OG's contract is tradable. And now all of a sudden, you got a little Towns and OG for Giannis and a contract, and that momentum starts.
00:27:01 Speaker_01
Talk to your buddy Doc about that one. Try to make that one happen.
00:27:05 Speaker_02
It might be happening if they keep looking like absolute crap. All right, so predictions. When do the Yankees get bounced? They're gonna get it back.
00:27:14 Speaker_01
No, I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna be very honest. They're gonna get it back to California and lose game six. OK, I think they will have a moment with Cole. Maybe Judge actually has a moment. What a concept that would be.
00:27:28 Speaker_01
They'll get the off day, I'll really start to believe, and Rodan will get shelled for seven runs. That's my prediction. Dodgers in six.
00:27:36 Speaker_02
So, game tomorrow, off day, 24 hours of hype, hope. Are you gonna go to LA? Well, I don't wanna miss it. This happened 20 years ago, blah, blah, blah. And then, I mean, even making it to a game six has never happened in World Series history.
00:27:52 Speaker_02
We've had 21 teams just finish the sweep, three got it to game five, and then, and then won it, and no team has been down three nothing and even gotten a game six. So that's not nothing, but not something you'll be telling your grandkids about either.
00:28:07 Speaker_01
No, I get that, but they'll save some face, this team, at least. If they're down three, I want to get it back to LA. I'm not saying it will be easy to stomach, but it won't diminish the achievement.
00:28:18 Speaker_01
I know the bar has been lowered considerably in Yankee land, like getting to the World Series now.
00:28:22 Speaker_02
You're not going to say this, are you?
00:28:25 Speaker_01
They haven't made the World Series in 15 years. Ask Jacko. He came on with you last week. I don't think you understand how bad it's been for Yankee standards.
00:28:32 Speaker_02
He's called it an achievement to make the World Series though. The New York Yankees.
00:28:37 Speaker_01
It's a step in the right direction. 2027 World Series. Yeah.
00:28:42 Speaker_02
I can't say unlike the Lakers. You don't cheat and count like titles.
00:28:45 Speaker_01
Minnesota titles. Yeah. But like, You can't say it's a failed season, can you? No. You made the World Series. That's what I mean. I'm not saying that I'm pumping my chest saying, yeah, A.L. Pennant, A.L. Chance.
00:28:59 Speaker_02
Well, that's great because now I know that the 2003 losing to Florida, I guess, was now a huge success.
00:29:05 Speaker_01
By the way, that World Series bothers me so much and it never gets talked about. That 2003 World Series made me so sick to my stomach.
00:29:15 Speaker_01
David Wells out of shape, not being able to pitch in game five and they all we were we were hung over from the Red Sox. Finish the damn series. He wants to the Florida Marlins. I see Beckett with the water.
00:29:26 Speaker_01
Everyone killed McKee and he started backing on three days rest in game six. Everyone was like, are you nuts? This is the dumbest managerial move ever. He throws a complete game shutout. McKeon is smoking cigars on a Yankee stadium field.
00:29:38 Speaker_01
So listen, let's get to tomorrow. That's where I'm focused, Simmons. Let's get to tomorrow.
00:29:42 Speaker_02
The most shocking Yankees one was when the Diamondbacks actually beat Rivera. I think that's the most shocked I've ever been by a baseball game, that somebody could actually make Rivera
00:29:55 Speaker_02
just get winning runs off of Rivera when he was at the all-time invincible, unhittable. And just even as it was happening, it was like, I just can't believe what I'm watching right now.
00:30:06 Speaker_01
And that was when Soriano in the eighth inning hit a ball off of Kurt Schilling. The ball was literally at his ankles. Hits the home run, gives the Yankees the lead. It's like, holy shit, they're gonna win again.
00:30:18 Speaker_01
But they got so outplayed in that series, like they won game four, last out. Came five, last out, be young, young Kim. Remember him melting down on the Yankees? Well, that was the thing.
00:30:27 Speaker_02
They had the melting down closer and you also had all the 9-11 stuff that it just felt like it was team destiny.
00:30:32 Speaker_01
Inevitable. Yeah, inevitable. Yeah.
00:30:34 Speaker_02
Until it wasn't. And Rivera on the mound, three more outs and we're done. And I just, my jaw was dropped. And even I, as much as I hate the Yankees, was kind of... semi-rooting for them. Yeah, that was one you would've been okay with.
00:30:48 Speaker_02
You would've been okay with that one. Yeah, no, I really was. I really, I got caught up a little bit, like the two comebacks, the Brocious and Tino, and you know, it was cool. I thought the city really needed it.
00:30:59 Speaker_01
They did, and that game five, no better sporting event I've ever attended. And that includes the six overtime game. Doesn't get better than that.
00:31:07 Speaker_02
JJ, John Jastrzemski, who hosts the New York, New York podcast, hope you're listening to it, as well as the Ringer gambling show, and the Ringer Sunday pregame show, which we do on Sundays with The Cuz, and with House, and with Rahim.
00:31:22 Speaker_02
Who knows, I might even make a stop by this week.
00:31:24 Speaker_01
You want some advice? Unload your mortgage on Buffalo against Miami this week. I don't care how ratty it might be. Have you seen Buffalo, Miami? You know what's gone on the last 10 years? Come on, easy money.
00:31:37 Speaker_02
All right, JJ, good to see you. Worst of luck with the Yanks.
00:31:40 Speaker_01
I know, thanks, bud.
00:31:44 Speaker_02
The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by FanDuel. If you're in need of a midweek boost, FanDuel, America's number one sports book, has you covered with the NBA hump day parlays reward stack.
00:31:55 Speaker_02
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00:32:05 Speaker_02
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00:32:47 Speaker_02
Gamble your problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. The NBA is back, and you know what that means. So is Michelob Ultra Courtside.
00:32:57 Speaker_02
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00:33:37 Speaker_02
Kurt Goldsberry is here. You need some sort of gimmick for us, like the professor? What do you wanna be?
00:33:42 Speaker_03
I'm a professor. Yeah, I like that. Let's do that. I am technically a professor here at the University of Texas, so maybe that's not even a gimmick, but I like it.
00:33:50 Speaker_02
Well, I like it for the pod. The professor is here. We wanna talk NBA. We've had a week, not counting tonight's games. you know, everybody does like overreactions.
00:34:01 Speaker_02
And to me, it's more of a trying to stay calm and noticing things that have jumped out of the TV to me one way or the other. So we're going to get into a whole bunch of that, but I just asked you come up with five things. It could be any list you want.
00:34:16 Speaker_02
Uh, you wanted to do five important developments even though we're only one weekend. But the thing is, what is the season, like 25 weeks? 26 weeks?
00:34:27 Speaker_03
Yeah, I was trying to think about that in NFL terms. They have 17 weeks now. I feel like we have to have like 30 weeks or something.
00:34:35 Speaker_02
Yeah, whatever it is. I mean, the thing about overreactions, you can see some things that go, ooh, like Denver's bench is like, ugh. Anyway, five important developments. Start us off, what do you want to hit first?
00:34:51 Speaker_03
Well, you just started us off. I have the Denver Nuggets, Bill Simmons, the Denver Nuggets might be in big trouble. That's my first development.
00:34:59 Speaker_03
And I think it has a lot to do with something I wouldn't have predicted with any Nicola Jokic team just a few years ago. And that's their shooting numbers. They ranked 28th in effective field goal percentage. You mentioned they're very thin.
00:35:14 Speaker_03
Uh, I think they're particularly thin when it comes to one emerging skill in pro basketball, which is shooting three point shots. Um, they let KCP go famously. Um, this is after letting Jeff green and Bruce Brown get away previous to that.
00:35:29 Speaker_03
Uh, and then of course they imported, uh, Russell Westbrook, uh, to a team that already like they ranked last and three point attempts. last season. So here we are with Westbrook on that team. And the numbers maybe shouldn't have surprised us.
00:35:45 Speaker_03
But the Russell Westbrook thing especially has been a debacle. In the 58 minutes he's played, they have a net rating of negative 30. And in 91 minutes he hasn't played, they're plus 11, which is a lot more Nuggets-like. So that's my first one.
00:35:58 Speaker_03
I mean, this is a team that a lot of us thought could compete for the championship. And certainly early, it doesn't look like they have the offense to do that.
00:36:07 Speaker_02
Yeah, it's a respect for the stuff they've done the last few years. Respect for the fact that they have one of the three or four best players in the league, depending where you want to put them. You could put them first.
00:36:19 Speaker_02
When we did the over-under odds, I ended up going over, did not feel great about it. It was really just a respect for Jokic thing.
00:36:28 Speaker_02
But when the over under was, I think it was 51 and a half, something like that, as we were like a month away from the season, it seemed really high with all the things that were in flux. What's interesting though, every single thing that was in flux,
00:36:43 Speaker_02
or, ah, I'm a little worried about this, or, eh, what if that doesn't, it feels like they're nine for nine with it going the wrong way against them, right? Murray looks okay. He doesn't look like the Murray from, you know, two years ago.
00:36:56 Speaker_02
Porter does not look the same. Gordon, the shooting thing becomes even more drastic when nobody can shoot. All the guys they were counting on off on the bench of the role players, I don't really think any of their shots are going to go in.
00:37:09 Speaker_02
Like Brown had that big shot in the overtime game last night in the corner wide open. I didn't think it was going in. And then you see Jokic having to take this huge offensive burden now where he's 40-40 both nights. That's not who he wants to be.
00:37:26 Speaker_03
No, it's almost like those LeBron teams in Cleveland where he had nothing the first time he was in Cleveland. He can do that, but he's not put on this earth to do that. He's put on his earth to make everybody else around him better.
00:37:38 Speaker_03
And they're really sort of Peter principling Christian Brown. He's being promoted to this level of expectation that it is not suited for him. And again, it goes back to this front office,
00:37:51 Speaker_03
not being able to build a really deep bench around somebody I would say is the best player in the world right now, particularly on offense.
00:38:00 Speaker_03
So I think this is a failure for a front office to build particularly spacing around this offensive savant, a guy that almost beat Team USA single-handedly in the Olympics this summer, Bill. And we show up Yeah, Jamal Murray's not who he used to be.
00:38:18 Speaker_03
Michael Porter Jr's off to a slow start. Aaron Gordon's never been a floor spacer. So what do you do around that? You gotta find shooting. And they just haven't done it.
00:38:27 Speaker_03
And in fact, they did the opposite by importing probably the most infamous jump shooter of our time in Russell Westbrook. And it's been woeful and it's been really harsh to see.
00:38:39 Speaker_03
And so I just don't think they're a contender with this group we've seen in week one.
00:38:45 Speaker_02
It really bums me out. And they've taken some swings because on the one hand, you could call them a little cheap for having, I think he's the best part in the world.
00:38:55 Speaker_02
I would also understand if somebody else wanted to really make a strong Luca case, whatever, but I still think Jokic has the belt, but you know, they gave Zeke Nagy, gave him this four year deal, right? That he's making nine million a year.
00:39:08 Speaker_02
You look even like, how do they fix this? It's really hard to make trades with them. You know, cause I thought like the trade that made the most sense in my head right away was something with Michael Porter and Zach Levine.
00:39:21 Speaker_02
I was like, Zach Levine's kinda, this is a different look for them, makes them a little smaller, but he brings some stuff that they need. He can create his own shot. Not everything has to go through Jokic. He's a good three-point shooter.
00:39:34 Speaker_02
He's not good defensively, but that's fine because maybe your offense will get so much better, it's not gonna matter. But you can't even do trade. That's not a straight up trade that works. You have to put Zeke Nagy in it.
00:39:46 Speaker_02
You have to use like the Bulls trade exception. And then the question is, well, why would the Bulls want Michael Porter and Zeke Nagy? So I don't even really know how they make the team better.
00:39:55 Speaker_02
They don't have anybody in that mid-range level, like that 12 to 20 million type of player that you could flip. And the Bucks are in a similar position too, but I don't know what the move is to fix this, I think is a bigger issue for me.
00:40:10 Speaker_03
I don't see one and I don't think there is one coming. And I think one of the only moves is to make Jokic do all of the stuff that he doesn't like to do, specifically the three-point shooting.
00:40:20 Speaker_03
And if you look at their three-point shooting without Jokic, the numbers get even bleaker. So I know that you've been talking a little bit about Jokic losing his three-point shot in the summer. It looks like it's back.
00:40:32 Speaker_03
It's unfair for this dude to also be this team's best floor spacer. That can't be the answer. We can't have the guy being the best rebounder, the best playmaker, and your best three-point shooter.
00:40:46 Speaker_03
He is the MVP three of the last four years, but even that's too much to ask for Nikoli Jokic at this point.
00:40:52 Speaker_02
Well, the other thing with that, it looks good now, because we're four games into the season, but you saw it last year, his legs started to go during the playoffs, and he just, the three-point shot wasn't the same.
00:41:06 Speaker_02
Defenses are clearly like, we want you to shoot this now. Right? It's a, go ahead and knock yourself out. If you go four for 10 from there, fine, whatever, because we're also covering all this other stuff.
00:41:17 Speaker_02
But the fact that Porter hasn't gotten better, and I really wonder, like, did the stuff that happened with his brother, like how much did that affect him? How much off-court baggage is in there with how he just doesn't look the same?
00:41:31 Speaker_02
He's had a bunch of injuries over the years, but To me, he just doesn't look dynamic. I really like watching the Hawks, even though they're not that good. You could talk me into four Hawks wings over Michael Porter Jr. at this point.
00:41:46 Speaker_02
So the fact that he's just not even an impact player in any way, combined with all this other stuff. I know everybody's been talking about the Nuggets, but this is really important. This is probably the best player of his generation.
00:41:59 Speaker_03
They won the title 17 months ago. They won the title 17 months ago. We're going to talk about them. They have the best player in the world, according to many of us.
00:42:07 Speaker_03
And then one of the weirdest things I've seen is early this season is a head coach, you know, pining for a player that left the team, Contavious, called Will Pope, who would solve some of these problems. But he's repeatedly mentioned this.
00:42:21 Speaker_03
And there's some tension reportedly between the coaching staff and the front office.
00:42:26 Speaker_02
By the way, that's not reported. I think There's definitely tension because those rumors were flying around, and then right as the season starts, he comes out and is like, you know who'd really be nice? Contavious Cobweb Pope.
00:42:36 Speaker_02
Like, you don't do that shit unless there's some deep-rooted stuff going on.
00:42:41 Speaker_03
Yeah, I agree. And I'd never seen, I don't know, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't seen a coach be like, man, we really could use that guy back. Like that's just, you know, nobody does that.
00:42:50 Speaker_03
So I think there's a revelation there that they just don't have enough pieces, particularly on that perimeter. And then Michael Porter Jr. is being asked to be more than he is because Contavious isn't there anymore.
00:43:02 Speaker_03
So it's just all a symptom, I think, of poor team building there.
00:43:07 Speaker_02
Yeah, Michael Porter is basically 13 and seven. He's not gonna create shots for anybody else. His three point shot is gonna have a little variance to it. Murray's at 17 a game through the three games.
00:43:19 Speaker_02
He did get the game time basket that sent the game to overtime last night where he looked like old school Murray a little bit. I wonder, do you feel when somebody's doing the same thing over and over and over and over again for years,
00:43:38 Speaker_02
I'm not saying the play is stoppable now, but we've just had so many reps with it that the defenses at least have somewhat of a sense of what to do.
00:43:48 Speaker_02
And then when the shooting around Murray and Jokic together isn't awesome, it just feels like not as unstoppable as it did two years ago to me.
00:43:56 Speaker_03
Dude, when that ball is found in Russell Westbrook after those passing sequences, it's just not as scary.
00:44:02 Speaker_02
Yeah, defense is like great.
00:44:04 Speaker_03
There's another defender that doesn't really have to pay attention to the corner or to the wing than normally had to. So yeah, it's a lot easier to defend when there's not contavious out there.
00:44:15 Speaker_03
And I know I'm beating a dead horse, but that's the thing. It's not just the possessions where they end up draining the three. It's the one where they thin you out, and it's a backdoor cut for Aaron Gordon. And suddenly that plays easier to defend.
00:44:29 Speaker_03
So yeah, I think there's these ecological impacts, but the bottom line is you're not gonna win the NBA title, Bill Simmons, in 2025 if you're the worst three-point shooting team in the NBA. You're not gonna do it.
00:44:40 Speaker_03
And I'm not saying that's where they're going. 100%. And yeah, I just think it's a tale of two cities in terms of building a deep roster over the last two NBA championship teams. Boston has done it, credit to Brad Stevens. Denver has not.
00:44:58 Speaker_02
The other thing I wonder, so you're talking about the Cronkies who own multiple sports franchises, who won a team, won a title a couple years ago, right?
00:45:10 Speaker_02
So it's not like they're like, oh man, we're going to do whatever it takes for Nuggets to win a title. They won the title.
00:45:15 Speaker_02
They also have a best player who is not going to be exactly leaking stuff to reporters and doing passive aggressive shit or being like, I don't know. I don't know how long I'm going to be here if we're not committed to winning.
00:45:30 Speaker_02
They're spending money, but they're not really spending money. And the people I've talked to in the league, everyone's kind of shocked that they weren't more all in. on this Jokic-Murray window, you know?
00:45:40 Speaker_02
And Caldwell Pope, there's been reports about, oh, he took, you know, he basically could've had either offer, he chose the Orlando offer, but that's also one they maybe could've locked up a year ago or done a better job.
00:45:53 Speaker_02
But they clearly thought, no, no, our young guys can step up into that spot. He only averaged eight points a game in the playoffs last year. It just feels like they're not lavishly spending the way, like the Celtics are spending right now.
00:46:04 Speaker_02
Maybe that's not the perfect path either. Celtics are going to be a hundred billion, you know, over the luxury tax, whatever the hell it is. But at least as a Celtics fan, I'm like, my owners give a shit.
00:46:16 Speaker_02
They're spending, they want to win the title again. I don't think Denver fans can say that.
00:46:21 Speaker_03
It certainly doesn't, and the KCP transaction or lack thereof, I think is a very good sort of proving point for that. And yeah, they just don't have the Aaron Gordon, yes, great transaction a few years ago. Jamal Murray is slipping. Michael Porter Jr.
00:46:37 Speaker_03
isn't as good as I thought he'd be at this point in his career. And below that line of four guys that we can all picture, that's the exact part that the Celtics have gotten right. The Spurs used to get right. The 4-12.
00:46:53 Speaker_03
Yeah, because you have to have those guys. And a lot of times, Bill, those guys are your shooters, those are your spacers. You mentioned the bench early.
00:47:00 Speaker_03
That's just the exact part where they're letting Jokic and the fans down, is they're just not doing 4-12, right?
00:47:08 Speaker_02
I still love watching Jokic. I watched a lot of the game last night. This is a fascinating version of him because if you look at the scoring title right now, and that was one of the things I wrote down. I was just like, hmm.
00:47:21 Speaker_02
The scoring title has Jokic and Davis near the top after a week. I don't think that's gonna last. I think Luka's gonna end up winning it, but Cam Thomas shoots 28 times a game. To me, the scoring title could go nine directions.
00:47:34 Speaker_02
I do wonder, will this be a career high for Jokic from a scoring standpoint? Will he get to 29 a game? Because I think he's gonna have to.
00:47:42 Speaker_03
If he didn't score 41 the other night against the Clippers, they were gonna be in bigger trouble than they already were. And he had to score 40 for them to win an OT in Toronto, which isn't exactly a juggernaut right now. He has to do this.
00:47:56 Speaker_03
There's just no other options. And again, I think the analogy is LeBron in the pre-Miami era, where he had to do a lot of the work as a scorer himself.
00:48:06 Speaker_02
So I think- So you're talking like Mo Williams, Antoine Jameson, Yeah, that era. Was Drew Gooden, I can't remember if he was on the team. Oh, definitely Drew Gooden.
00:48:21 Speaker_03
Yeah, so I think that's not a good comp. Anytime we're talking about that roster for that player who's a very gifted player at that time in the 2000s, that's not a good comp for Calvin Booth and the Denver Nuggets front office.
00:48:36 Speaker_02
Well, here's my question, and the Bucs might be coming up as one of your other developments. Are you more worried about the bucks or the nuggets? Because I'm more worried about the nuggets than the bucks.
00:48:50 Speaker_02
Because with the bucks, you can at least talk yourself into a, well, when Chris Middleton comes back, they'll at least be able to defend wings. Maybe not that great, but way better than how they're doing it. Right now, the bucks problem is,
00:49:02 Speaker_02
Any guard who can get into the paint and any wing who can get in the paint can do whatever the fuck they want against the Bucs. It's like an all-you-can-eat buffet. What do you want to do? Do you want to shoot a floater? Do you want to get to the rim?
00:49:15 Speaker_02
Do you want to do a stop and then a step back three? You want to post somebody up? Come play the Bucs. And I don't know how they fix it. They're atrocious defensively. Middleton will make it a little better. I don't know what the fix is for the Nuggets.
00:49:28 Speaker_03
Yeah, well, I think one of those two stars is more likely to ask out than the other one. So I'm going to say I'm more worried about the Milwaukee Bucks. And that is my actually my next developing friend. So I don't know if you want to do that now.
00:49:42 Speaker_02
Let's do it now. Yeah.
00:49:44 Speaker_03
Cause it is, it's a very similar situation, but on the opposite end of the court, I mean, just like we sort of started to associate Nicola Yokich with just offensive efficiency in a can. If you have them on the court, you're a top 10 offense.
00:49:57 Speaker_03
That's somehow not happening in Denver this year. The opposite was true. I thought with Giannis and Brooke in Milwaukee, especially in the bud era, but their defenses is garbage right now, Bill. And I think.
00:50:10 Speaker_03
they have a good chance of starting two and five or one in six. Uh, and they are losing to teams, including the Chicago bulls. Uh, they couldn't stop Colby white or Zach Levine in that game.
00:50:23 Speaker_03
They lost to the Brooklyn nets, which was one of the more eye popping results of this young season, but also not eye popping.
00:50:30 Speaker_02
Cause I was like, I forget what the line was, but it was high for the Bucs, and I'm like, man, I bet the Nets could give the Bucs a game. I just feel like anybody who has wing scores and point guards that can create are a problem for the Bucs.
00:50:44 Speaker_02
They should never be favored by 11 over anybody.
00:50:47 Speaker_03
Well, then Peyton Pritchard comes out and looks like Klay Thompson against them, uh, from 2015. Uh, so you're exactly right. You nailed it. They can't stop perimeter offense.
00:50:59 Speaker_03
Um, which is not Mike Budenholzer's era, uh, Bucs team and certainly not drew holidays or a Bucs defense. Uh, last year, I think, well, And Bud's last year, Milwaukee ranked number one. This isn't any ancient history.
00:51:12 Speaker_03
They ranked number one in defense two years ago. They ranked 19 last year. That was a lost season. But early this year, they're 26. And it's the nature of it. It's the open threes they're giving up. It's the drive and finish from the perimeter players.
00:51:30 Speaker_03
It's Damian Lillard not doing his job. and nobody covering up in rotations. The lack of Chris Middleton is being felt to some extent. but this is an Eastern Conference that's less forgiving than it has been.
00:51:43 Speaker_03
And I'm pretty worried about the Milwaukee Bucks, because I've also heard some men tell that the vibes aren't great there either, with some of their top-tier talent.
00:51:54 Speaker_03
And I don't know if it's Giannis or Damian or Chris or whatever, the bottom line is, they might start one and six, and their defense might be bottom 10, and that's not a recipe for long-term success.
00:52:08 Speaker_02
And the big picture question, did they just get passed by a couple teams? Like I watched that Orlando-Indiana game last night, which I wanna talk about at some point as we're talking here.
00:52:20 Speaker_02
And those teams are just really young and really athletic and have multiple options and really fun lineups they can put together and they're built around guys who can create shots.
00:52:32 Speaker_02
And if Paolo's gonna keep doing what he's doing, I just like Orlando ceiling more than Milwaukee as a regular season team, much less a playoff team.
00:52:40 Speaker_02
We talked about it before the season when we did the over-under pod, and I brought up Janis Drade stuff a couple times, and I think people thought I was being a dick about it. This is stuff that's been going around for a year.
00:52:50 Speaker_02
And they can deny it, he can deny it, but it comes down to the basic premise of the guy wants to compete for titles.
00:52:59 Speaker_02
And if he doesn't feel like everything around him is title worthy, at some point, he's gonna go to a place that he wants to compete, that he'll be able to compete for titles.
00:53:11 Speaker_02
I look at this Bucks team, and it's really hinging on Middleton, who hasn't been 100% healthy in three years, right? And who's 33 years old.
00:53:20 Speaker_02
They have an old team in general, and now you're putting all this pressure on the Middleton piece, which it can't be ruled out. I wouldn't bet on it.
00:53:31 Speaker_03
And I love what you said with Sal the other day about our LeBron and Tom Brady sort of deforming our ideas of aging curves, you know, like there are these two examples of just once in a generation competitors that also just broke aging curves.
00:53:48 Speaker_03
Chris Middleton's a great example. This is a normal 33, 34-year-old season. There's gonna be this, Brooke Lopez is getting up there. Under normal circumstances, we would be ready for this. And I think age is a big factor.
00:54:03 Speaker_03
By the way, Damian Lillard, not exactly a young player anymore. I think this is an old basketball team, and you've studied this for years. They don't do well, especially aging guards like Damian Lillard.
00:54:16 Speaker_03
this is not unusual to see this exact thing happen. And I hate trade demand stuff. I hate trade demand gossip, but that intel is out there, folks. The honest stuff is out there. Leave it to other people to talk about the deals and stuff like that.
00:54:31 Speaker_03
But you're exactly right. I think there's a world where this, he's the next big domino to drop in that kind of trade demand.
00:54:39 Speaker_02
And I think the Knicks were waiting on it last year. And then he ended up doubling down, they did the Dame trade, and I think they had to audible the other stuff they had planned.
00:54:51 Speaker_02
I also wouldn't rule the Knicks out long-term with Giannis to begin with. They have the Towns piece that would work as the contract.
00:54:58 Speaker_02
I went through all the teams again, I was on a text thread with some friends talking about it today, and I don't really know what the team is if you're talking about titles, which we talked about when we did the Over-Under pod last month.
00:55:10 Speaker_02
There's not the perfect fit. But I know that dude doesn't want to be irrelevant. And just like little shit like him not being on the Christmas Day game, it's not nothing. Right? You're not on one of the 10 most interesting teams in the league anymore.
00:55:26 Speaker_02
Also, you don't really have a chance, doesn't seem like, to win a title unless there's some roster changes. But the Dame, the one thing with this is the Dame thing I feel like was
00:55:37 Speaker_02
pretty predictable, because he had stopped playing defense for a few years, and then the Middleton, just him getting hurt three years in a row, he hasn't been healthy since that 2021 playoffs.
00:55:53 Speaker_02
And they missed on some draft picks, which is the other piece of this. The Celtics did a good job with a couple of their fringe guys that they found, Hauser, Cornette, Pritchard, guys that, even the Tillman trade last year, guys they can plug in,
00:56:08 Speaker_02
eat some innings for that, and the Bucs haven't found that.
00:56:11 Speaker_03
But it's so funny to bring that up, because I remember in 2022, May of 2022, not ancient history, sitting at TD before that Grant Williams game, right? And you think back to that.
00:56:20 Speaker_03
I remember talking to people around me and being like, it feels like we're going to watch these two teams play big playoff games for the entire decade, doesn't it?
00:56:28 Speaker_03
And it just felt like that, like that was just a rivalry we were going to get start the thing. And what did Brad Stevens do in the last few years? He turned Grant Williams and Time Lord and Smart and Brogdon into this new
00:56:41 Speaker_03
deeper than ever basketball team that won the championship. And Milwaukee's kind of gone the other way in that same time period. And I just, it just doesn't feel right in their old. And the other thing about the Damien deal, much like the Beal
00:56:57 Speaker_03
deal is that paralyzes your ability to trim around the edges, to build small pieces around there. That's a big number. And in this new CB era, Bill, nobody wants to talk about the nerdy stuff.
00:57:10 Speaker_03
Just know that it's really hard to build a team when you have one of these $60 million players on your cap.
00:57:17 Speaker_02
Right, and the Celtics got off two guys when their value was probably higher than who they were as players, right? Grant, and most importantly, Marcus Smart, who I think had a lot of miles on him. They sniffed it out.
00:57:30 Speaker_02
Everyone went nuts when they traded him. I was probably on the side of people defending it, because I was just like, I just think he's hitting maybe a different point in his career. And he gets hurt last year, which is fluky, but this year,
00:57:43 Speaker_02
you watch them and it's not the Marcus Smart from three, four years ago. This is the shit that happened. So one of the Buck's mistake was they moved on, it feels like the wrong guy, right?
00:57:55 Speaker_02
They used Drew, they basically Drew became the fall guy for the two disappointing playoff performances. And then they kept the rest of the Nucleus and maybe they would have been better off I don't know, come up with a different plan.
00:58:06 Speaker_02
It's hard to rule out Giannis, he's still one of, just like it's hard to rule out Jokic, but.
00:58:11 Speaker_03
But dude, yeah, I think they, yeah, so they lost the 1-8 series and Miami just destroyed Drew Holliday. I mean, Jimmy Butler did do a lot of damage to Drew Holliday in that series and Milwaukee overreacted. I mean, I'm a Spur guy, you know that.
00:58:29 Speaker_03
Spurs lost an 8-1 series at some point during their run to Memphis.
00:58:33 Speaker_02
Everybody remembers that. They lost to Memphis, yeah, it was in 2011.
00:58:36 Speaker_03
Did they fire pop? Did they trade Tony? No, they didn't do that stuff. They said, God, that sucked. We got our asses kicked. Let's get better and come back next year. They didn't overreact, and I think Milwaukee kind of- You know what they did?
00:58:50 Speaker_02
They did the George Hill trade that year. That was their overreaction, was they traded their fifth best player, not their second best player.
00:58:59 Speaker_03
But yeah, I don't think that's gonna age well, that period, because Giannis was hurt in that series too, and it's like, okay guys, you're not gonna win the championship every year. Like, even the Spurs dynasty, they won five out of like 16 chances.
00:59:12 Speaker_03
Like, you're not gonna do it. You're not gonna do Jordan once.
00:59:14 Speaker_02
The only thing I think they missed, I was talking to somebody about this the other day, that I just said, as I've said a million times, I think the league is better.
00:59:23 Speaker_02
And these teams that you would put together that would look like a 2018 contender, I don't think that's conceivable anymore. Even look at, like, the Lakers have looked pretty good for the first four games. That's not just about LeBron and AD.
00:59:35 Speaker_02
Like, Reeves is playing really well. Rui is playing really well, right? The coach is a huge upgrade from last year's coach, it seems like so far. Some of their role guys have been okay, but it's not just the two guys.
00:59:48 Speaker_02
And that was what made the Celtics so special last year. That's what made the Mavs have realized, we gotta go nine deep, you gotta use the regular season a certain way.
00:59:58 Speaker_02
And then you see the Bucs and it's like so much pressure is on Giannis and Dame having like a 35 point game. And then what's plan B if those things don't happen? I don't know, I still,
01:00:12 Speaker_02
I still like their ceiling with the Middleton piece, but you could also tell me he's never gonna be the guy again. And I would believe that too. The Nuggets, I have a much harder time.
01:00:24 Speaker_02
The Nuggets basically come down to, can Murray get back to where he was? And if you're gonna tell me he's gonna get back to where he was, I'm feeling better even with the lack of shooting.
01:00:37 Speaker_03
He saved their asses in that Toronto game, in his home area there.
01:00:40 Speaker_02
Yeah, that was a good sign.
01:00:41 Speaker_03
He is one of the, yeah, he has a gear and he has that clutch gene that so many guys don't have, but he hasn't looked good in a while, particularly in the field of play.
01:00:50 Speaker_02
He hasn't looked good, like, for what we're, you know, I had him probably like 22nd in the Ringer 100 this summer, you know, and I don't know if I'd put him in the top 25.
01:00:59 Speaker_02
All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll do the other three things you wanted to hit. Our Yahoo Fantasy League here at The Ringer is in full swing. Yahoo Fantasy Plus is helping the crew get Ws. It is the best fantasy platform. Easy app.
01:01:20 Speaker_02
It just ties in, updates stuff right away. You can click on guys for injuries. I really like the player update piece probably the most, just finding out what is going on with everybody. But Yahoo!
01:01:32 Speaker_02
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01:01:44 Speaker_02
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01:01:59 Speaker_02
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01:02:12 Speaker_02
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01:02:22 Speaker_02
All you have to do is sign up for Yahoo Fantasy Plus today at yahoosports.com slash Simmons. That is yahoosports.com slash Simmons. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats.
01:02:35 Speaker_02
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01:03:02 Speaker_02
Second item of equal or lesser value. Terms apply. See app for details. Coming back, what's your third big development?
01:03:10 Speaker_03
Well, you're just talking about it and our friend JJ Redick looks like a good NBA coach and you were talking about it. I think the Lakers look like a different group and it's really interesting.
01:03:23 Speaker_03
I think JJ has found something and if you followed it closely or even talked to him in the summer, he was obsessed with how can I get more out of Anthony Davis, Bill? And early on, one of the developing things right now is that he's found a way.
01:03:38 Speaker_03
And Anthony looks as good as he's ever looked as a Laker, maybe outside of the bubble so far. And I think playing through Anthony on offense, giving him more responsibility has worked so far, but it's more than that.
01:03:53 Speaker_03
I think JJ has also done a great job of getting the role players to feel invested, to feel like, They're part of the group, and I think he's designing ATOs that end with Austin Reeves or Rui getting a good look. He knows the tricks.
01:04:10 Speaker_03
I know he's been a role player, and I think that you couldn't ask for a better first week. I know they're 3-1 and not 4-0. but this is a great start for JJ Redick. And not everybody was predicting that, by the way.
01:04:25 Speaker_03
You didn't have to look very far in our world to find somebody who's like, oh, JJ doesn't know what he's doing, this is gonna be a disaster. Well, through one week at least, it's not a disaster in Los Angeles.
01:04:34 Speaker_02
Yeah, if you had to tell me bet on disaster or great coach, I probably would have bet on disaster, just because I just think it's really hard to be a coach.
01:04:43 Speaker_02
And there's a whole bunch of stuff that goes with it, including how you deal with your best players, how you deal with the media day in, day out. I've been super impressed. And I haven't gone to a game yet, so I haven't seen it in person.
01:04:58 Speaker_02
They look really crisp. I like the plays that he designs coming out of timeouts. There's just little subtle shit where you can tell, oh, this team knows what they're doing. Last night against the Suns, LeBron had a bad game.
01:05:09 Speaker_02
He didn't have it last night. And I think in the past, they wouldn't have kind of moved the car keys away from him. And JJ has already shown to me, he's not afraid to be like, hey, LeBron, you don't really have it tonight.
01:05:22 Speaker_02
Let's toss the car keys over there. Because I felt like there, last couple of years, I felt like there were games where like Reeves, as crazy as this sounds, was probably a better creator matchup for them. Right?
01:05:32 Speaker_02
He just had a worst part of guarding him. He could run, pick and roll with Davis better. And maybe we don't need LeBron as much this game, but LeBron, cause he's LeBron. I think the previous coaches were kind of paralyzed by it.
01:05:45 Speaker_02
JJ is clearly like, we're going with the matchups that are going to win this game. LeBron was like to the side last night. It was really, it was really interesting to watch. And I, what he's done for Davis is like undeniable.
01:05:58 Speaker_02
Now Davis could get hurt tomorrow, but- But he's as invested and as competitive. As I've seen, and the last thing, because I'm doing a rambling monologue, I really like how intense he is on the sidelines in a good way.
01:06:14 Speaker_02
And I have a lot of different thoughts about what coach behavior should be on a sideline, because I think these guys are all adults. They don't need Rick Pitino yelling and slamming the clipboard, and they don't need somebody yapping the whole time.
01:06:26 Speaker_02
He's more intense in like a locked-in way. Like if they get fucked on a call, he's going right at the refs. He's, you can see him pacing on the sidelines. When he gets to the last two minutes, it's almost like he's playing.
01:06:37 Speaker_02
And I think they kind of needed that. Don't you feel like they kind of needed that energy? And I think they've been in every one of these games. Even the Suns game, they almost won.
01:06:47 Speaker_03
Yeah. The sun's game on the road against the team that also looks like they have a good new coach and is playing better than they had been. Uh, but yeah, I think JJ couldn't, couldn't be, and I think the energy is a great point. I think he is a leader.
01:07:00 Speaker_03
Um, and I do not diminish his preexisting relationship with LeBron James, albeit on a podcast. But dude, it helps. It helps.
01:07:09 Speaker_03
You can tell that LeBron, he started here on second base with LeBron James, and we've watched LeBron run through coaches in his career, Bill. He's starting in a better place. And he's praising his role players in the media, Austin Reeves, notably.
01:07:28 Speaker_03
But the AD thing is the headline. I mean, he currently leads the NBA in scoring. He's averaging 33 and 12.
01:07:36 Speaker_02
I mean, he's played the Suns twice and Nurkic for whatever reason, he just demolishes Nurkic. They don't. So we'll see when we get to some other centers, but offense, defense, he's been great.
01:07:49 Speaker_03
He looks like the guy when we're writing about him in Grantland, he looks like the guy we all thought he was going to be, you know, in 2013 and 2014 when he was this youngster in New Orleans. In fact, his usage rate is higher right now.
01:08:02 Speaker_03
Speaking to JJ and running the team through. Anthony Davis, his usage rate hasn't been this high since he's gotten to Los Angeles. So the numbers back up the idea too, that the team is running through Anthony Davis and it's working early.
01:08:18 Speaker_03
He's one of the best two-way players in the league when he is healthy. And you mentioned this earlier, but he's got to stay healthy. And one of the things I would say is he's looked healthy since the Olympics. It looks sustainable. Yeah, that's true.
01:08:34 Speaker_03
I don't want to jinx anything. But he looks like he is a reliable sort of sustainable presence in this rotation.
01:08:44 Speaker_02
You know, there's one other thing going on with this team that I didn't realize fully until I was watching them. Because they've actually been pretty fun to watch. I took the under for them at 42 and a half.
01:08:55 Speaker_02
I thought, you know, new coach, LeBron, hitting age 40, like I did so many good teams in the West, just didn't seem like a great bet. I went over on them the last couple of years.
01:09:07 Speaker_02
Now their over's up to 44 and a half, and I would probably take the over on the 44 and a half at that point. Here's the other reason other than the ones we mentioned. I think the Bronny thing's been good for LeBron being part of that team.
01:09:20 Speaker_02
Oh, that's interesting. I think there's a real energy and a real joy he gets from it. Now I sound like I'm an ESPN talking head just praising LeBron. But I really think like,
01:09:34 Speaker_02
there's just something different about the investment when your son's there every night, right? And it just seems like he's responded in all the right ways to it.
01:09:45 Speaker_02
I've no idea if it's gonna last, if it's sustainable, but I don't know if we're gonna see some of the passive aggressive stuff that he was doing the last couple years with the roster because he seems way more invested in the roster and the guys that he's playing with.
01:10:00 Speaker_03
That's a great point, I never thought about it, it's so primitive, but as a dad, it's kinda harder to be a jerk to the waiter at the restaurant if your kid's at the table.
01:10:08 Speaker_02
If your kid's at the table, no, it's really true. He's just being a pro. You're setting a dad example, you're still like, I know Bronny's a grown-ass man now, he's like 20, but he's still a kid.
01:10:22 Speaker_02
My son turns 17 next week, I still look at him like he's a six-year-old that I'm trying to teach him right from wrong. I don't know, I might be wrong, but I do feel like the energy from that has been a positive.
01:10:33 Speaker_02
And I thought it was going to go the other way. I thought this was going to be a soap opera. They're going to be asking about every game, but it really seems like they've navigated it correctly. Bronny's there, probably in the G League.
01:10:43 Speaker_02
He's definitely not going to help that team in any way this year, but I think he's been good to have around. I think it's given everybody a boost. It's weird.
01:10:52 Speaker_03
I love that take. And I think, you know, the other thing is he is starting to slip, you know, he needed a late three in that Phoenix game and I know they lost to get to 10 points just to keep his 3000 year old streak of 10 points in every game alive.
01:11:05 Speaker_03
He needed to hit that three pointer. Um, I think again, we're overreacting here. It's week one, but you know, LeBron's going to have more and more nights like this. This is what it's going to look like.
01:11:17 Speaker_03
And, and JJ to his credit saw this and was like, I got to get more out of ad if this is going to work. And ad is leading the league in points in the pain, as we said, leading the league and points per game.
01:11:29 Speaker_03
You know, it's a Kindler, Gentler, LeBron James, whatever, but this is very encouraging. And I know you're a Celtics guy, but the league is more interesting when the Lakers are good.
01:11:40 Speaker_03
And JJ looks to have righted the ship here a little bit in Los Angeles.
01:11:44 Speaker_02
And Davis is really hard to play against, defend, handle, right? When he's playing at this level, he's one of the six, seven best guys in the league.
01:11:54 Speaker_02
It makes me think like, you know, they have some draft capital, they have some young players, there's some sort of move they could make. Obviously D'Angelo Russell is gonna be on eBay for the next four months as they shop him to anybody.
01:12:10 Speaker_02
But it makes me think like if I'm them, the way Davis is playing combined with that, you still have LeBron on the team this year and next year.
01:12:19 Speaker_02
Maybe you do sacrifice one of those extra assets because I look at the West and OKC and the Celtics to me are levitating above everybody else in the league. It's like they're in their own league. Then it's a drop off.
01:12:32 Speaker_02
And the Lakers with one more guy, especially if it was a point guard slash shooter, I think if Davis is gonna play like this, you have to think you could swim in that pool. I didn't think they could swim in that pool a month ago.
01:12:46 Speaker_03
No, I'm with you. I think my first piece for the Ringer should come out this week, but we're looking at depth. And I'm arguing the depth Bill Simmons is the new MVP of the NBA. And it's harder to achieve in this new CBA.
01:13:00 Speaker_03
But when we look at what separates the Celtics and the Thunder right now and teams like the Wolves is that they go seven, eight, nine deep. And that is very hard. That is, that is evidence of a very good front office.
01:13:14 Speaker_03
Uh, and that is what we're seeing separating the teams because everybody has a superstar now, it seems. All the contender, I have one or two superstars. Okay, cool. What do you have?
01:13:23 Speaker_03
And what you talked about in Milwaukee, and what we talked about in Denver, is they don't have that. The Lakers and Suns also struggle a little bit in that department.
01:13:33 Speaker_02
But that's exactly- Would you put the Knicks in there?
01:13:37 Speaker_03
The Knicks are pretty good in depth. Obviously, I think they're starting fives about as good as it gets.
01:13:41 Speaker_02
No, I'm saying putting them in the not enough depth camp.
01:13:44 Speaker_03
Yeah, so it depends on what you define depth. I think their fourth and fifth guys are great, but below that, Deuce McBride, we're asking a lot of Deuce McBride now. Once Mitchell Robinson gets back, I think they're relatively deep.
01:13:55 Speaker_02
So he's hurt though.
01:13:57 Speaker_03
But I brought this up because you said there's Boston and OKC. And I think that's what it is. And when you look at depth, it's those guys by a long shot.
01:14:06 Speaker_03
I mean, when you're talking about Peyton Pritchard and Sam Hauser and Al Horford coming off your bench, that's a different world than these struggling teams with superstars or including the Lakers have in those slots.
01:14:20 Speaker_02
That's why I loved OKC's over under one seed. Every bet that had them winning the West and winning 60 plus games.
01:14:26 Speaker_02
But I also ended up going over with the Celtics too because they, when you have, we can give this guy a day off depth, that's like the last frontier of depth. The Celtics and OKC could basically, it's like OKC lost Hartenstein for five weeks.
01:14:44 Speaker_02
They're like, all right, next guy up. And they have guys,
01:14:47 Speaker_02
You know, and you watch like the way Wiggins and Wallace have been playing in this first week and they go deep with dudes that can come in and actually flip a game, which is what the Celtics have too.
01:14:57 Speaker_02
So the Lakers though, if they get, if Connect can become something of a guy for them, like a 15 to 18 minute ninth man type guy. And if Rui, if this is real, and I don't trust Rui at all, but maybe this is a little bit real.
01:15:15 Speaker_02
And then one more trade, like they might actually have enough depth to sustain LeBron games like last night, where it's just like, oof, he looks 40 tonight.
01:15:25 Speaker_03
I'll represent Rui. Rui's a shooter, man. Rui can fill it up. And LeBron is one of the best three-point creators the world's ever seen. They just need a couple other guys around that. But Rui can shoot the ball.
01:15:38 Speaker_03
And if Connect, like you said, if he becomes a reliable off-ball threat, I think they can have a good offense. And with AD, they're gonna be in good shape on defense.
01:15:48 Speaker_02
All right, so if I gave you, I know it's too fucking early. Eight playoff teams, OKC, Minnesota, Phoenix, would you have all three of those in?
01:15:56 Speaker_03
Definitely.
01:15:58 Speaker_02
And Dallas? Oh, yeah. Those are four definites. Any team I name after that, you'd be like, I don't know, there might be a playing team, including Denver. It's like, I don't know, there might be a seven seed.
01:16:13 Speaker_02
If Jokic got her for 12 games, that might be a 41 and 41 team.
01:16:19 Speaker_03
Until Stefan got her golden state was looking good too. Uh, and I think, you know, the West in the Houston, who knows what we have there, who knows when B's going to turn it on. Yeah. The second half of the West is, is going to be a lot of the five.
01:16:31 Speaker_02
There's a lot of five through 12. Yeah. Five through 12. I don't think San Antonio is here that Sacramento.
01:16:39 Speaker_02
I would have been if they had beaten the Lakers like they should have on Saturday night, where they're just in control of the first three quarters. And then LeBron just leaves his body for 20 minutes and just flips the game. That was unbelievable.
01:16:52 Speaker_02
All right. What's your fourth thing?
01:16:54 Speaker_03
Well, let's, I got two Eastern Conference ones. I'll save the Celtics for last. We're gonna go to Cleveland. I think Cleveland, you mentioned Orlando. I love this point.
01:17:04 Speaker_03
I think these small market teams emerging in the Eastern Conference, Indiana, Orlando, but I'm gonna talk about Cleveland. I think they all have a chance to sort of upset the Knicks and Sixers and slide in.
01:17:15 Speaker_03
One of those teams could slide into that two slot. And if I had to say right now, I like all three of them. Indiana has been off to a rocky start and it hasn't looked great a couple of times.
01:17:24 Speaker_03
If I had to pick one right now, I'm picking Kenny and the Cavaliers. I'm picking the Cleveland Cavaliers, Bill. They're 4-0, they've won handily. They had a good roster to begin with. It felt like they were underachieving for a minute there.
01:17:38 Speaker_03
You remember a couple of years ago, it felt like they were on the brink of becoming sort of perennial contenders.
01:17:44 Speaker_02
I mean, last year it felt that way.
01:17:46 Speaker_03
Yeah. And, but you know, I think they're a really good two way team. Jared Allen is a monster. Evan Mobley gives you like two rim protectors on the court at the same time. And obviously they're back court.
01:17:57 Speaker_03
Uh, if Darius Garland's as good as this, and he's, he's had hot, a hot start. He was great in New York.
01:18:04 Speaker_03
But if Darius Garland's playing this well, and Donovan Mitchell's playing this well, they're as good as anybody competing for that second spot in the East. And I do believe in Kenny Atkinson.
01:18:15 Speaker_03
And I do believe that this Cavaliers team might be a surprise two or three seed in that Eastern Conference.
01:18:21 Speaker_02
The Mitchell signing with them long-term I think really helps. The fact that Garland's healthy this year really helps.
01:18:28 Speaker_02
Nick's game, granted, first week of the season, not gonna overreact to it, but I like that they went in there and fuckin', they were up five, up six, the whole second half of the fourth quarter, and they just, that was it. They got stopped.
01:18:39 Speaker_02
Brunson missed a couple shots that he normally makes, but they had a real hard time stopping Garland. And there was a couple moments near the end where, Garland had the ball, and Mitchell threw him the car keys a couple times and let him do stuff.
01:18:55 Speaker_02
This is one of the reasons we were so high on them in the over-under pod, and I have a lot of Cleveland bets, I have them for the division.
01:19:02 Speaker_02
They've been playing together now for a couple years, which I think it's the most simple point you could possibly make, but I do think it matters. These guys, it's really hard to have any kind of continuity in the NBA anymore.
01:19:13 Speaker_02
So I see that with them, and then Orlando is the other one that, They have Palo, who's better than anyone on the Cavs, I think. Apologies to Donovan Mitchell, but Palo's talent ceiling I would put higher than anyone on the Cavs roster.
01:19:30 Speaker_02
And then this Anthony Black thing that happened last night was Joel. They put him out there in crunch time, he made two big threes, he gives them sighs. They weren't afraid to go to him when it mattered.
01:19:43 Speaker_02
And that was kind of a game changer for me, because I was like, oh, I wasn't, I didn't know he was coming to the party. I like the magic anyway.
01:19:51 Speaker_02
So, I don't know, I'd like both of those teams, certainly more than Philly as a regular season team, and certainly more than Milwaukee as a regular season team.
01:20:02 Speaker_03
Well, if the best ability is availability, then Orlando has more abilities than those two older teams in Philadelphia and Milwaukee. So yeah, I think when we talk about depth, Orlando is in that conversation.
01:20:15 Speaker_03
They just have different looks they can throw at you. They seem to be really willful defenders up and down the roster. I like that team a lot. And I think because they're in a small market, nobody talks about the magic. just like the Cavs.
01:20:33 Speaker_02
The Ringer talks about the magic, because we have Steve Cerruti on board. So we've been carrying most of the magic national torch. Now that the Lakers are good, nobody's ever going to talk about the magic on any national TV station.
01:20:46 Speaker_03
Well, who do you like better, if you had to overreact to one week, Cleveland or Orlando, for sneaking into the two or the three seed in the Eastern Conference?
01:20:56 Speaker_02
Good question, thank you for asking. I thought Cleveland really had a chance to be the two seed, and I'm not surprised by what's happened with them because I just thought they were gonna be good.
01:21:07 Speaker_02
I wasn't prepared for the Palo leap that I feel like might be happening. To me, last night, he looked a lot like Tatum, like year five, year six Tatum.
01:21:19 Speaker_02
figuring out stuff at the foul line, top of the key, how to set up other guys, how to know what the right time is to just, oh, I'm just going to the basket now, I have a lane, versus like, oh, I'm gonna pull this double team over and find somebody.
01:21:32 Speaker_02
I thought there were a lot of similarities with those guys, and I didn't know if Palo 100% had that in him yet, because he's so young. Like that took Tatum probably until the 2022 playoffs to even, really hinted becoming that guy in a real way.
01:21:48 Speaker_02
I felt like Paolo was like, might be that guy now. I was just blown away by the game he had yesterday. Granted, it's against Indiana. Indiana sucks defensively, I get it. But that was a higher level than I was expecting.
01:22:01 Speaker_03
Yes, I don't mean to just agree with you on that, but it's totally true. I was not ready for a 50 point game from Paolo.
01:22:08 Speaker_02
50 points with like nine rebounds, nine assists.
01:22:12 Speaker_03
It's a crazy stat line. He has tremendous feel for the game. And then when you watch him in person, it does feel like he's gonna be one of these guys the game slows down for. He makes the right read. He makes the right play. He can go get his own.
01:22:25 Speaker_03
He can make people around him better. And the good news for Orlando is the guys, there's a really good supporting cast already in place there.
01:22:33 Speaker_03
We talked about KCP enough in this podcast, but that's a nice ad to have on the perimeter, a veteran who knows how to win.
01:22:43 Speaker_02
The thing that jumps out with them is how competitive those dudes are. Suggs is another borderline. If you're doing your all-NBA sociopath team, I think he would have to be first-team guard. He's a maniac.
01:22:56 Speaker_02
Black hit that go-ahead three, and he ran over to him during the timeout, and he's just screaming at him like he was a boxing hype man or something. He's a maniac, but that whole team is wired that way.
01:23:09 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think so. And so I think it's going to be, I think they're deeper than the calves, which I love the calves roster. I think there's a little bit of weakness in Cleveland at the wing position.
01:23:18 Speaker_03
I liked how they use Dean Wade to guard Brunson a little bit, but I wish they had another sort of three and D wing in that starting group or in their rotation to go to.
01:23:32 Speaker_03
But yeah, I think those two teams aren't getting enough respect and if the first week isn't any indication that might change here in the first month of the season, Bill.
01:23:42 Speaker_02
So, Franz only played 11 minutes in the game yesterday and they were able to, I'm looking at the minutes now, still feels like they're one guy short
01:23:55 Speaker_02
in that Gary Harris, Jed Howard kind of area, but I also feel like there's a lot of trade bait possibilities of this team. It's also a team that has all their picks.
01:24:04 Speaker_02
So there's moves that they can make, but if you were gonna give me Orlando and Cleveland on this end and Philly and Milwaukee on the other end, I would just pick the Orlando, Cleveland thing, not just for the regular season, but for playoffs too.
01:24:17 Speaker_02
I love young durability and competitiveness. Those are all things that we know works. It worked with OKC last year. Every time we say, no, no, they're not gonna be ready yet, it always happens a year earlier than a year later.
01:24:29 Speaker_02
The Palo piece, though, remember last year, they lose the game seven, and the excuse after the game, which wasn't even really an excuse, was like, man, too much on Palo, too much. He had to create everything. It was such a burden on him.
01:24:43 Speaker_02
Last night, he looked like he was like, I've spent the whole summer being ready to be the guy, and now I'm gonna be ready for this. But yeah. He's better, certainly better than I ever thought he was gonna be.
01:24:56 Speaker_02
Remember we were arguing about him versus Chet versus Jabari. I don't think anybody saw this. I know people love Palo, but nobody saw like what happened last night as the ceiling. I thought that was, Saruti, are you on this?
01:25:10 Speaker_02
Saruti, did anyone see this with Palo? Like even like the most bullish, crazy Palo fan, did anyone see what happened last night as the ceiling?
01:25:20 Speaker_00
I think we're silo before the draft, because I mean, infamously, I guess I was a check guy. I still feel good about that. Not a bad opinion. Going to be a good player. I think that's fine.
01:25:31 Speaker_00
My thing is, I just feel like both teams got the player that they probably needed long term. But no, I mean, I think the thing that the worry about Paulo was like, was he going to be like this inefficient, mellow type score?
01:25:43 Speaker_00
And I think, you know, early on, so much was thrust upon him that like he was like, oh, no, is this going to be like just a high volume everything guy?
01:25:50 Speaker_00
And that's why I got so defensive in the playoffs last year about the turnovers, because I'm like, cool, he's playing in this hostile Cleveland environment.
01:25:56 Speaker_00
And in his second year where he's arguably at times the best player on the floor, as you said, Donovan Mitchell has an argument, but like, that's wild stuff.
01:26:05 Speaker_00
Like that's, there are not that many guys in the history of the league that have been asked to do that and have like met the challenge in year two. So
01:26:13 Speaker_00
I think everybody thought he was going to put up numbers, but was the efficiency and the winning going to be behind it? So that's the question. It's coming this early. That's what's so crazy about it.
01:26:21 Speaker_02
Yeah. He's 22, right? Yes. Yeah, it feels like the sport of basketball has slowed down for him a tiny bit. And this is why it's so dangerous to do the overreactions after week one. I don't think that's an overreaction.
01:26:38 Speaker_02
You can tell sometimes when a guy has gone from point B to point C or point D to point D, whatever, it feels like he's at a different point of whatever the journey was than he was in that Cleveland series.
01:26:50 Speaker_00
22 in two weeks, by the way. So still 21. Wow. Oh my God.
01:26:54 Speaker_02
It's wild. Kirk, where's he in the trade value rankings now?
01:26:59 Speaker_03
Dude, a 21-year-old with a 50-point game is pretty high.
01:27:02 Speaker_02
He's gotta be top five to seven now? Now it makes me wanna do another rankings.
01:27:09 Speaker_00
I think you had him eight last year.
01:27:11 Speaker_02
I had him eight, but I think he's gotta be higher. To me, Paolo versus Edwards, I woulda had Edwards ahead of him, no question, last summer, and now it's like, all right, I gotta really sit down and sketch this out and look at their ages.
01:27:26 Speaker_02
We saw it happen with the Celtics last year. You can build an actual championship team around a guy with this specific set of skills. The difference is he's not as good of a defender as Tatum is, at least not yet.
01:27:38 Speaker_02
Tatum was always a really good defensive player. Did you expect that Anthony Black hitting the two threes piece of the season?
01:27:46 Speaker_00
I mean, I don't want to toot my own horn but like kind of so I was I literally called Russo after the game last night because we were both so excited about it and I was calling for Anthony black to play in the playoffs last year.
01:27:58 Speaker_00
I was like, what's the worst that could happen?
01:27:59 Speaker_00
I mean, you know nothing against Gary Harris I know he's not your favorite player, but he's like it can't get much worse Offensively than what it was in some of those games and he's like over seven from three So it's like throw black out there.
01:28:10 Speaker_00
See what could happen I mean when he was coming out of the draft, it was like hey high IQ player like big you know, can guard multiple positions, but like the shot is atrocious. So the fact that he's even like, the shot looks pretty good.
01:28:23 Speaker_00
And the fact that he's making them semi consistently and two, as you said, two big threes last night, that he's going to be a factor, he should be a factor. And I'm you throw like trade ships. I mean, depends where the guy is.
01:28:35 Speaker_00
But like, I'm kind of I'm holding that guy close to the vest.
01:28:37 Speaker_02
Yeah, because he fits in with the identity they have. As you know, Kirk, you know I'm the body language doctor. I thought it was very instructive how Orlando's bench was reacting to the black threes.
01:28:48 Speaker_03
That's right.
01:28:49 Speaker_02
They were fucking losing their shit. It was like combination, we love this guy, but also like, yo, if he's going to make those, holy shit, we might actually be really good this year. So I thought I was really encouraging.
01:29:01 Speaker_02
I know Franz left the game last night. What's the Franz updates, Rudy?
01:29:07 Speaker_00
I don't, it doesn't seem like I said anything serious, but, uh.
01:29:09 Speaker_02
But what, how does he look to heading into this? Like, did he carry over the Germany love or no?
01:29:14 Speaker_00
So here's the thing is like. Apollo's become a better shooter, a more efficient shooter. Suggs has improved his three point shooting every single year. I mean, he's like a 40 percent three point taken, like what, over five a game or something.
01:29:26 Speaker_00
It's absurd. Anthony Black has become a better shooter. We can't who's we can't get this guy to figure out bronze a shot. Who's who's the shooting coach? I don't know.
01:29:34 Speaker_00
I should know the name, but like he's the one guy where it's like what's kind of going on. And it is a little weird. Like he's kind of like Suggs is kind of ascending to that. Number two guy. I mean, oh, wow, not not not in points.
01:29:46 Speaker_00
It'll never be in points But just as like an all-around feel for the game because of the defensive end You know, I still believe in fronds I think it's gonna be fine But it is a it is a little weird because everybody else seems to be like kind of growing especially in the shooting department He's the one that's kind of regressed
01:30:02 Speaker_02
So if you, if Black comes through for you, maybe you don't need Dennis Schroeder. Cause he, he was auditioning for you this week with the 29 point game. It's like, hey Orlando.
01:30:10 Speaker_00
We're good. We're good. Unless it's an obvious, unless it's an obvious upgrade. I, there's not, I, I, I like the core man. This team loves playing. That's, and you mentioned the sucks thing and him running over to Anthony Black.
01:30:20 Speaker_00
Like they genuinely love playing with each other. Like that's the wins are great. It's cool. But the vibes are just that there's, there might not be a better vibe seemingly.
01:30:27 Speaker_02
Yeah, Suggs is like a Wolf of Wall Street character. Kirk, when you were in front office, did you guys, you were with the Spurs, did they like look for stuff like bench chemistry, bench reactions as something that actually mattered?
01:30:43 Speaker_03
Dude, I remember when we drafted Derek in whatever year that was, we watched all of his clips for when he got fouls called on him. And we watched his body language reacting to all the ref calls against him.
01:30:58 Speaker_03
And we didn't like, he was very demonstrative after all these calls. It was, he was like one of these guys that, but yeah, body language is really important. to people like Pop and RC, of course.
01:31:08 Speaker_03
So you try to gain insights into the psyche and competitive nature of all of these guys. And the body language doctor has known this for years. But yeah, we watch that stuff.
01:31:20 Speaker_03
One of the reasons you scout and you go to games early, Bill, is you watch how guys warm up, you interact with their coaches, you see how these guys are as employees, as teammates. as leaders, as followers, that stuff is very important.
01:31:35 Speaker_03
And I agree with Sarudi, the vibes in this group, maybe with the exception of Gary Harris, am I allowed to say that? It feels like they love each other. They're young, they're fun loving. I wouldn't trade anybody, by the way, including Gary Harris.
01:31:47 Speaker_03
But I think this team has the body language doctor I would confer with, but it feels like they would be near the top of his power rankings.
01:31:58 Speaker_02
No question. I think they're right in the same spot OKC was in last year. Let's see how well we can do. Let's see how many wins we can bank. Let's let Palo cook. Everything's a bonus. Can we get to round two? Can we put together some playoff wins?
01:32:15 Speaker_02
But let's not really figure out what we have until the next off season would be my recommendation. All right, we're gonna take one more break and then do Goldsberry's last thing. This episode is brought to you by Uber Reserve.
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This episode is brought to you by Paramount Network. Sunday, November 10th is the epic return to Yellowstone and it's only on Paramount Network. One of my favorite networks, by the way. What will become of the Dutton family?
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Nothing will prepare you for this must-see premiere event, the epic return of Yellowstone, Sunday, November 10th at eight, seven central on Paramount Network. All right, coming back, you wanted to talk about the Celtics. What do you got?
01:34:40 Speaker_03
I have to talk, it's what I've been writing about for 10 years now with you and other places and in books is like, these guys are elevating three point shooting to another level.
01:34:49 Speaker_03
Like if we go from the Splash Brothers to the D'Antoni Harden Industrial Complex in Houston, we think it can't get any higher. Your team, Bill Simmons, is taking it higher. They are shooting over 53s a game, and they're making 43% of them.
01:35:07 Speaker_03
I'm not sure either of those numbers are sustainable, but I'm not copping out here. I expect this team to break three-point shooting records by the end of the season. I think they'll break the record for most attempts and most makes. And Missoula ball,
01:35:22 Speaker_03
has not only won a championship, but it's doing it by extending Daryl Morey and Stephen Curry's legacy deep into the 2020s and proving once and for all the three-point revolution isn't dead.
01:35:34 Speaker_03
In fact, the best teams in the league are still finding ways to leverage three-point shooting in profound new ways. So your team, I think, is becoming the new Splash Brothers or sort of Hardin Rockets.
01:35:45 Speaker_02
It's like the Splash family. Yeah, it was interesting. Last night they brought against the Bucks, they brought in Jordan Walsh. And I was like, what the fuck, man? This guy, he's not a good enough three-point shooter. It doesn't fit into our system.
01:35:58 Speaker_02
And he took a couple, he missed a couple, but it's surprising when they play anyone. Yeah, well, it's shocking when they put anyone in who can't make an open three, you know? And they have an embarrassment of riches all over the place.
01:36:15 Speaker_02
The three point shooting, the fact that they don't have Porzingis and you don't even really notice, they just have so much depth that now they're paying for the depth. They're gonna have a crazy luxury tax bill.
01:36:25 Speaker_02
I love what I've seen from Tatum and Brown early on. Tatum fixed the hitch, which thank God. I think he's a legitimate MVP candidate. Michael Pena wrote about that for TheRinger.com today, and I completely agree.
01:36:39 Speaker_02
If they're gonna be in the 60s for wins, you gotta really seriously look at whoever the best player is. But I love everything I've seen from Tatum. And then Jalen, I feel like has taken all the shit that he was doing last year, and it's
01:36:54 Speaker_02
maybe even just a hair better, and the two of them together. It's everything Steve Kerr always told me about the year after you win the title, that first two months, the next season. You're just like, you're so locked in, you have so much confidence.
01:37:10 Speaker_02
And that's, it's gotten to the point like I would be surprised when they lose, you know? Which I feel the same way about OKC. We're like, oh, OKC lost last night? That's usually when you know you have a 60-win team. It's like, whoa, shit.
01:37:23 Speaker_02
The Celtics lost two in a row? Like, it's shocking.
01:37:26 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. And I think like when Sam, Sam Houser, but I mean, Peyton Pritchard scores 28 points. That's a classic indicator too.
01:37:33 Speaker_03
I think when you have a bench player come out and just change a game like that, and it's not somebody who could, you would count on doing that more than once or twice a month.
01:37:43 Speaker_03
And I just think they are the deepest team in the NBA, not to beat a dead horse, but as you mentioned earlier, It's the three-point depth in particular. If you wanna play for Joe Mizzoula, you have to be able to shoot from 25 feet.
01:37:58 Speaker_03
You have to want to shoot it. He gets mad at his players when they don't shoot them, which is kind of the mentality that you need to have.
01:38:07 Speaker_03
A lot of guys in the league wanna pass up those shots, and he actually reprimands his guys, and you'll hear them talking about, he gets mad when we pass up an open look.
01:38:18 Speaker_03
That's very different than what was happening just 10 years ago around this league, but I think they're gonna break records in three-point shooting, potentially offensive efficiency again, and challenge conventional wisdom further.
01:38:31 Speaker_03
How many threes can we do here? I think over half of their shots are three-point shots at this point, which is crazy.
01:38:39 Speaker_02
Yeah, so you figure, they're taking 53 as a game, in making 40% of them, that's 23 is a game, right? 82 games in a year. So could they get to like 1,700 threes for the season? Like it's conceivable.
01:38:59 Speaker_02
I don't know what the record is, but I guarantee nobody's ever had 1,600.
01:39:03 Speaker_03
Do they have five guys shooting seven or more in a game right now? I think Klay Thompson's only done seven or more in a game, like half of his years in the NBA. So it's like a normal Klay Thompson year, but they have five of them.
01:39:16 Speaker_03
So it is sort of like the splash family.
01:39:18 Speaker_02
Do you subscribe to the, I remember first talking about this two years ago, there was some dialogue about it the last couple of days on the internets, that there's a sameness to all of these styles now, becomes boring during the regular season.
01:39:34 Speaker_02
I don't, I'm so used to it now, it doesn't seem any different to me, and I still feel like there's enough aberration type of players, ranging from, you know, John Morant to Cam Thomas to, there's some post-up guys, we still have like the Shangun types.
01:39:53 Speaker_02
It still, it doesn't feel like just, oh, everybody's chucking up threes, we'll see who wins, but do you see any of that?
01:39:59 Speaker_03
Yeah, I play both sides of that. I think there's never been this much talent in the league, and ultimately that's why I turn on the TV set. I love watching the guys, but I'd love to see the NBA move the line. I think it's time to move the line.
01:40:10 Speaker_03
I think the shot has become too easy for too many guys. I've been really vocal about that. I think the first time I wrote about it was in 2014 at Grantland after the Spurs won the title. And I think it's only,
01:40:25 Speaker_03
I don't say it's ugly, I don't wanna say that, but I think the shot has become too easy for too many, and I'd like to see it a little more difficult for the average player.
01:40:35 Speaker_03
And it's only gonna make Stephen Curry and Damian Lillard more valuable, or Jason Tatum. Guys who can shoot from deeper will become more valuable in a world where the shot's harder. So I think it actually celebrates those guys a little bit more.
01:40:49 Speaker_03
I don't know, I think, I don't know, what do you think? You think it's okay? You think everything is hunky-dory? You don't think it's too many threes?
01:40:56 Speaker_03
I always joke, Bill, that it should be called the two-point line once we take more than half of our shots from behind it. But yeah, I'm eager to hear what you think on this one, actually.
01:41:08 Speaker_02
This is the first time I've seriously started thinking about, do we have to fix the corner three a little bit?
01:41:15 Speaker_02
Do you make the arc, you change it a little bit so when it goes right to the corner, maybe the line goes so that a corner three no longer exists. And you have to be three, four feet over from the corner for it to be a corner three.
01:41:31 Speaker_02
That would be the only thing that I could see five, six years from now if they were gonna tweak it. I could see the whole arc of the three-point line instead of it just being almost like a semicircle the way it looks now.
01:41:43 Speaker_02
being different where it kind of, it hits the corner in a way that you, corner threes are gone. It goes up higher so that like the peak of it is like 28 feet instead of 24 or whatever. And maybe that's where we're heading.
01:41:59 Speaker_02
But I also, I don't know if that would help the product because then it's like just guys heaving these long shots and these long rebounds. And I think that would cause too many, unintended consequences.
01:42:10 Speaker_02
But you could tell me, like, could they experiment with the corner three for preseason, see what it looks like? I wouldn't be against it.
01:42:17 Speaker_03
I don't think I've ever shared this, but in 2019, after my book came out, Adam Silver reached out to me and said, will you come present some of this stuff to the, to the league? And, and we had suggested, um, two different three point lines.
01:42:29 Speaker_03
We got to the competition committee and we were going to try it in the G league bill. We're going to try two or three different looks in the G League, and I'd love for them to revisit.
01:42:37 Speaker_03
One was to get rid of the corner three entirely, which is very drastic. And in fact, I think it was Brad Stevens who was on the competition committee. He was like, hell no, you'll never see a slam dunk again. This is going to ruin spacing.
01:42:48 Speaker_03
So, you know, you have to see it. You have to see how the league reacts to these things because it could end up making the product worse. Like hand up, like some of these ideas might not be good ideas for the product.
01:43:03 Speaker_03
And I think the better one is to keep the corners where they are, but extend the three point arc, which is currently 23.75. get it out to 25 or 26 feet like you described. But again, you're exactly right.
01:43:15 Speaker_03
Does that just mean we're watching more missed threes, the same number of threes but fewer makes? Because that's not great. So I think we'd have to see it in practice to see what it would look like before we would sort of engineer the right product.
01:43:28 Speaker_03
What I would say is every other league on the planet that matters, the W, college basketball, FIBA, they've all moved the line back this century. The NBA is the only one that hasn't.
01:43:37 Speaker_03
But yeah, I think that's gonna be a bigger conversation as your Celtics continue to rain down dozens of threes on their opponent on a nightly basis.
01:43:46 Speaker_02
One other thing I was thinking is maybe there's a limit for threes. Once you make 20, you just can only make two pointers from that point on. You've basically used up your 20 and that's it. Maybe that's where it goes.
01:43:59 Speaker_03
That would be awesome. You kind of like that one. I like that one, it's kinda like timeouts. Sorry, that's your last three, so I hope you're ready to post up Porzingis for the rest of the game.
01:44:12 Speaker_03
It would be wild to see how teams would change their offense.
01:44:15 Speaker_02
Yeah, maybe they wouldn't shoot threes in the first quarter. I don't feel like we vehemently disagreed on anything. Do you have anything you wanna vehemently disagree on? Because unfortunately, we see a lot of basketball the same way.
01:44:28 Speaker_02
I'll just throw a couple things at you, and you can tell me if you vehemently disagree.
01:44:35 Speaker_03
Ryan Dunn in the running for most impactful rookie? They knew this kid could defend. They knew the kid could defend. The shot is a, let's just say, a work in progress. And I think if he Dude, Lou Dort, same thing, right?
01:44:56 Speaker_03
Now Lou Dort makes a lot of money because why? He made the shot work. So I think this kid could be a long-term NBA player, a rotation player for a very good Phoenix team, but he's got to be able to start making some shots long-term.
01:45:11 Speaker_03
Yeah, so I think if his three-point shot is real, that was the only question in my mind. The defense was NBA ready. So I think they got something if he's making those threes.
01:45:24 Speaker_02
My guy, Eddie Johnson, that cranky homer, who's also on Sirius XM radio, he flagged the Ryan Dunn thing like a month ago.
01:45:35 Speaker_02
And he was like, and he, we have like a really fun relationship, but he was so adamant and excited about how good this kid was in preseason. I was like, I don't feel like Eddie's making this up. Like he's like super duper duper excited.
01:45:51 Speaker_02
And it turns out, like, you know, you see him out there in crunch time for them. Interesting wrinkle for them. I still don't, I don't know what they're going to do about a center, and I'm not sure it's going to matter in the regular season.
01:46:00 Speaker_02
I still think they'll get to 50 plus wins. All right, next. I'll try to start one more argument here. Chicago. A more pleasant league pass experience than you were expecting?
01:46:17 Speaker_03
DeMar DeRozan is not there anymore. And I don't know if it's the Ewing theory or the DeMar theory or whatever you wanna say here. They're definitely playing harder on defense. Kobe White feels like a more enjoyable presence.
01:46:32 Speaker_03
The more time he's getting in this offense, the more, he's a fun guy. Zach Levine, maybe not. Vucevic, you know, I don't know. What are you going to say? I'll say no. I think I'm going to say no.
01:46:46 Speaker_03
If I have five games to watch and they're probably not in my four box, you know what I mean? I'll just say no. And for the sake of starting an argument.
01:46:54 Speaker_02
They were a cross off for me as a league pass team.
01:46:57 Speaker_02
But I actually like the ball, the giddy, Vucevic still feels like there's this little tiny foreign center thing to be unlocked with him with passing at the top of the key and now guys are moving around.
01:47:09 Speaker_02
It's not so like old school DeRozan gets the ball and everybody kind of stands around. I don't know, they're on my radar. They have some players I like watching. And I'm still rooting for Giddes to become a guy.
01:47:21 Speaker_02
Because I just think he's so different than all the other players. You need weird players to succeed like him with his kind of skill set. We'll see. Could Cam Thomas lead the league in scoring? For real. I think the number has to be at least 32 a game.
01:47:42 Speaker_02
Because there's no way Luka goes under 32 a game. The only way it would happen is if Dallas is just blowing teams out and he's not playing the same minutes per game. He's just an established 33 a game now.
01:47:54 Speaker_02
So let's say he drops to 32, I think that's the number.
01:47:59 Speaker_03
There is a way, but I think it's very, very unlikely. But Brooklyn, in part because Brooklyn's playing better than I thought they would be, Bill, they're playing harder. They got a new coach, too, and it looks like they have new vibes.
01:48:11 Speaker_03
They're frisky, and all Ben Simmons jokes aside, he's looked okay. He just won't shoot.
01:48:19 Speaker_02
And they have to take him out with six minutes left, because he's just not gonna ever want to take a foul shot, ever.
01:48:25 Speaker_03
It is wild. But Cam Thomas is not afraid to shoot Mr. Greenlight. I think there's a path there, but I would be shocked. I would say this is Lucas. This is Lucas here to win.
01:48:37 Speaker_02
All right, let's throw the money on Luca. Well, they're playing tonight after we tape this. So you talked about American stars being worried about them. Counter, a lot of American stars I like watching right now.
01:48:48 Speaker_02
Tatum and Brown, Edwards, Palo, Brunson, Halliburton, Jah, Lamello. Rumors of a Lamello comeback, Booker and Fox, Mitchell, Zion, when he plays. I don't know, I'm feeling better about the Americans.
01:49:04 Speaker_03
Well, so are the casinos. I noticed that both Jason Tatum and Anthony Davis have rightfully surged up the MVP futures list. And I think Tatum is playing better.
01:49:16 Speaker_03
He looks a lot better, you know, better than anybody when he's taking good shots and they're going in, the three-point shots especially. Uh, John Moran Lamello has been one of the best stories of the first week. Again, new coach, new vibes.
01:49:30 Speaker_03
I think that's one of the themes of our podcast today. And Charlotte has new coach, new vibes, and he, he's benefited from that. And I can't wait to see him and Brandon Miller playing together.
01:49:40 Speaker_02
But, um, yeah, tatum tatum is five to one, by the way. He was 13 to one before the season started, and it's dropped now to five to one, third best odds on Fandor.
01:49:48 Speaker_03
There you go. And I think, hey, as a hardworking American myself, I love to watch Americans dominate.
01:49:54 Speaker_02
Yeah, you counted out the Americans, I don't know. Houston needs to make a trade, yes or no?
01:50:02 Speaker_03
Houston has one of the weirdest rosters in the league. I need to see a little bit more, but for the sake of argument, yes, they have tradable pieces. I'm not sure which of these young players is really going to stay there.
01:50:12 Speaker_03
It doesn't feel like Shangoon and Jalen green should be on the same basketball team. Uh, Fred van, both of them. They couldn't be, and one of the cool things about weird, you said weird basketball guys.
01:50:24 Speaker_03
These are guys, the fact that they're on the same team and they're from such different parts of the world and they play well together, but Freddie Van Fleet, Dylan Brooks, these guys are just, how are they all on the same team? So I'll go with yes.
01:50:37 Speaker_03
They need to make some changes there.
01:50:39 Speaker_02
I think they're a two for one or a three for one, but I thought that way before the season. Memphis is not a playoff team. I'm just throwing that out there for argument's sake. I'm not saying whether I believe it or not.
01:50:56 Speaker_03
I can get there. Just for the sake of argument, I say they are a playoff team. I think they have too much talent. I don't think they're as good as they were a few years ago.
01:51:04 Speaker_03
I think Steve and Adams remain sort of an unheralded piece of their success from two years ago with just the physicality and the rebounding, particularly the second chance points that they really just
01:51:16 Speaker_03
depended on, and we'll see what Edie can do, but I think there are 60. I think the Memphis Grizzlies are gonna be the 60, the last non-playing team in the West, if I had to say.
01:51:28 Speaker_02
I'm less bullish on them than I was, and I went under on their over-under, because I thought I was too high, but this is why it's the first week of the season. I'm just watching them. I'll have a harder opinion than them in the 20 game.
01:51:45 Speaker_02
Are you worried about New Orleans yet, by the way?
01:51:48 Speaker_03
A little bit, but this Jordan Hawkins kid has caught my eye. And this kid, he looks like a natural shooter.
01:51:56 Speaker_02
Yeah, what do they do? It just feels like he needs to play.
01:52:00 Speaker_03
He needs to play. And I mean, I don't know if that factors into the Ingram decision they have or trying to get off of that, but dude, I love that kid. And he looks like a shooter, like one of the best jump shooters early in the season.
01:52:14 Speaker_03
And it doesn't look like an accident. He was one of the best shooters coming out of the draft. I'm not worried about them. I'm always worried about Zion staying healthy, but I'm not worried about them.
01:52:24 Speaker_03
I think they're going to figure it out, but they have like a couple of pieces. They just need to figure out rotations in my opinion. What are your thoughts?
01:52:31 Speaker_02
It's too early. I'm with you on Hawkins. I just feel, I was talking to somebody about it today, somebody has to be disappointed in the West. We're not gonna have 11 playoff teams.
01:52:42 Speaker_02
There's gotta be somebody who, when we get to mid-December, we're like, holy shit. I can't believe that team is 10 and 15. It's gonna be somebody, and I have a couple suspects, but I wanna watch for another week.
01:52:58 Speaker_02
The Clippers being a little better at least in week one than I expected. is another monkey wrench, because I just had them penciled in as a bottom three team. But Harden's like, this is great. I have the ball all the time.
01:53:12 Speaker_02
They have a bunch of defensive guys who are like, this is great. Harden has the ball all the time. All I have to do is worry about this. And then Norm Powell's like, this is great. Every once in a while, they just let me cook.
01:53:23 Speaker_02
So I still don't know if they're good, but I'm also a little concerned that, because that was one of my locks. I had them under 37 and a half. I'm a little concerned they might be more of a professional basketball team than that.
01:53:38 Speaker_03
Well, Ty Lue is a great coach, and I think James Harden's in his happy place. He sort of alluded to it.
01:53:44 Speaker_02
He seems super pumped.
01:53:47 Speaker_03
Undeniably the leader of the team right now, and if he feels that way, and Ty Lue's the coach, and their defense is playing like this, Yeah, I agree.
01:53:58 Speaker_03
Like you're saying, there's six guaranteed spots, there's the two play-in playoff spots of four play-in teams. I think Denver and the Clippers, I think I would say.
01:54:08 Speaker_02
Yeah, I think Denver's gonna be a play-in team. That's probably my biggest overreaction from week one. I find it hard to believe they're gonna be one of the six best teams in the West, because I don't know what the fixes are for them.
01:54:20 Speaker_02
Milwaukee, you can talk yourself into it a little faster because the East is such a, once you get past the top eight, it's just, there's seven crummy teams in there. But, uh.
01:54:31 Speaker_03
Have you been to the Intuit facility yet?
01:54:34 Speaker_02
No, I'm going this weekend.
01:54:36 Speaker_03
Okay, we look forward to a thorough report.
01:54:39 Speaker_02
I'll report back. I hope it's a better experience than Neapolis. Kurt Goldsberry, so your first piece is this week on TheRinger.com?
01:54:46 Speaker_03
I hope so. Yeah. We got to make sure that our editors agree with that, but yeah, I'll file it tomorrow.
01:54:51 Speaker_02
Okay. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on.
01:54:53 Speaker_03
Thanks Bill.
01:54:56 Speaker_02
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to John Jastrzemski. Thanks to Kurt Goldsberry. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti as well. Thanks to Cerruti for popping on the podcast too. Don't forget to check out the Rewatchables, Halloween 4.
01:55:11 Speaker_02
Don't forget about the live show in Denver, which tickets will be going on sale on Friday at theringer.com slash events. Look forward to seeing you and I will see you on this podcast. Thursday night, Halloween, my favorite day. Can't wait.
01:55:51 Speaker_02
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01:56:01 Speaker_02
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01:56:20 Speaker_02
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