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Episode: The veteran loan calamity

Author: NPR
Duration: 00:36:48

Episode Shownotes

Ray and Becky Queen live in rural Oklahoma with their kids (and chickens). The Queens were able to buy that home with a VA loan because of Ray's service in the Army. During COVID, the Queens – like millions of other Americans – needed help from emergency forbearance. They were

told they could pause home payments for up to a year and then pick up again making affordable mortgage payments with no problems.That's what happened for most American homeowners who took forbearance. But not for tens of thousands of military veterans like Ray Queen.On today's show, we follow two reporters' journey to figure out what went wrong with the VA's loan forbearance program. How did something meant to help vets keep their houses during COVID end up stranding tens of thousands of them on the brink of foreclosure? And, once the error was spotted, did the government do enough to make things right?Today's episode was produced by James Sneed. It was edited by Meg Cramer. And fact-checked by Dania Suleman. Engineering by Cena Loffredo. Alex Goldmark is Planet Money's executive producer.Help support Planet Money and hear our bonus episodes by subscribing to Planet Money+ in Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org/planetmoney.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Summary

In this episode of Planet Money, NPR explores the challenges military veterans faced with the VA loan forbearance program during the COVID pandemic. The struggle of Ray and Becky Queen illustrates how mismanagement within the VA system left veterans at risk of foreclosure after the promised temporary relief did not materialize. The episode highlights systemic failures in veterans' financial support mechanisms, contrasting their experiences with protections afforded to other homeowners, and raises concerns about the adequacy of economic support systems in times of crisis.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (The veteran loan calamity) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_08
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00:00:32 Speaker_11
Hey, it's Kenny Malone. Real quick before the show, I wanted to share three ways to follow NPR's election coverage in the coming days. So up first, you've got Up First. That is NPR's morning news podcast.

00:00:47 Speaker_11
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00:01:00 Speaker_11
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00:01:17 Speaker_11
Consider this in the evening and the NPR politics podcast. Anytime big stuff happens. It's an around the clock election news survival kit from NPR podcasts. OK, thank you for listening. Here's the show.

00:01:32 Speaker_07
This is Planet Money from NPR.

00:01:39 Speaker_03
gorgeous farmland out here.

00:01:42 Speaker_11
Yeah, it's nice. Picture a Jeep bouncing along a dirt road in rural Oklahoma.

00:01:49 Speaker_03
Is that their house? Uh, what does it say? It's on the right or the left? I think it's on the left.

00:01:55 Speaker_11
These are two of my colleagues, NPR reporters Quill Lawrence and Chris Arnold, and they're pulling up to a house.

00:02:01 Speaker_03
Is that right? I think that's right, yeah.

00:02:03 Speaker_11
Kind of the house, really, that's been at the center of this astonishing and frankly pretty bizarre problem that has been unfolding over the last couple years. They get out of the car, microphones recording, of course. How are you doing?

00:02:20 Speaker_09
I'm doing good, how are you?

00:02:21 Speaker_11
Good.

00:02:22 Speaker_03
Just, you know, I apologize in advance for putting microphones in your face. No, it's fine.

00:02:27 Speaker_11
They're greeted by the homeowners, Ray and Becky Queen. Ray served in the army in Iraq.

00:02:32 Speaker_10
You've got Arabic on your wrist. It was done in Iraq. Oh, yeah. A buddy of mine bought a tattoo machine. On the farm? Yeah.

00:02:39 Speaker_02
Where were you?

00:02:42 Speaker_10
Liberty.

00:02:42 Speaker_02
Oh, OK.

00:02:43 Speaker_10
That's where we were based. The Liberty Victory Complex. That nonsense, yeah. Yep, that nonsense.

00:02:50 Speaker_11
When Chris first met Ray and Becky Queen, they were about to lose their house because somewhere in some governmental office, a decision was made about how to help veterans keep their homes during COVID, and it had gone catastrophically wrong.

00:03:08 Speaker_10
I didn't want to talk to you in the first place, I'm gonna be honest with you. That's just not my thing. When you told me how many people this affected, it made me feel a lot better about being wanting to get this fixed.

00:03:25 Speaker_11
Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Kenny Malone. Today on the show, we ride along with our colleagues at NPR as they uncover a single change to some wonky mortgage terms that not many people were paying attention to.

00:03:39 Speaker_11
The result of that change, tens of thousands of veterans were about to lose their homes because of a policy meant to help keep them in those homes.

00:03:54 Speaker_04
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00:04:24 Speaker_08
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00:04:53 Speaker_11
Let's make sure everyone is rolling. Rolling.

00:04:54 Speaker_03
Rolling. Hang on, the AG in Maryland is texting me about something.

00:05:01 Speaker_11
This is the most Chris Arnold way to start an interview. Oh, I'm sorry. The attorney general in another state is texting me about something else. Chris Arnold is a reporter for NPR's investigations team. He has been on the show many times before.

00:05:14 Speaker_11
And this particular story starts when Chris got a call from a lawyer.

00:05:20 Speaker_03
The lawyer, she was like, look, I got a call from this guy and I don't know if I can help him. His house has already been foreclosed on. Somebody screwed up. He had a COVID mortgage forbearance and the family's like about to be put out on the street.

00:05:33 Speaker_11
Yes, COVID mortgage forbearance. When COVID hit, 20 million people lost their jobs, but we hoped it was gonna be a temporary thing.

00:05:45 Speaker_11
And so Congress said like, hey, look, if you're a homeowner and you're in trouble, you are allowed to temporarily pause your mortgage payments and not lose your home. That is forbearance. And it's become an important part of the crisis playbook.

00:06:02 Speaker_03
The system, the financial system, learned after the 2008 financial crisis and the foreclosure mess and millions of people losing their homes, it learned that, well, everybody wins if you can avoid a foreclosure.

00:06:16 Speaker_03
The people on the other end that are trying to collect the money win. The neighborhood wins. The homeowner wins. So forbearance comes into play where it's like, all right, well, something happened.

00:06:26 Speaker_03
I'm in between jobs, so I might not be able to pay my mortgage for three or four months, but I'm getting another job, so just hang with me here, you know?

00:06:33 Speaker_11
Yeah, and even when there is not a crisis, you can usually work with your lender to pause mortgage payments for just a few months. With COVID though, the government extended that. Homeowners were ultimately allowed 18 months of forbearance.

00:06:50 Speaker_11
However, Chris was hearing that something was going very wrong with that system, and it seemed to be hitting one particular group of homeowners.

00:06:59 Speaker_03
I remember hearing from some lawyers who were, you know, like people are about to lose their house, they start calling lawyers. And they were telling me they're getting a lot of calls from veterans, like something something wasn't right.

00:07:12 Speaker_02
Yeah, so I was out in LA doing a story on homeless veterans, actually.

00:07:16 Speaker_11
That is Quill Lawrence, our second guide today. Quill covers veterans affairs for NPR.

00:07:22 Speaker_02
And Chris reaches out to me, and he's got some story about veterans losing their homes. And I'm not used to hearing from Chris about veteran stories. He's the mortgage guy.

00:07:33 Speaker_11
So Chris and Quill went searching for somebody who was in the middle of this big problem, somebody who was about to lose their home.

00:07:41 Speaker_03
And eventually I got connected with this couple, Ray and Becky Queen, in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. And I was like, okay, yeah, let's talk to these guys.

00:07:51 Speaker_07
This is the letter that I received, my husband and I received yesterday stating that our home is now in foreclosure. They're starting foreclosure proceedings.

00:08:06 Speaker_02
Ray and Becky Queen have four kids. Ray works for a veterans nonprofit, veterans education stuff. Becky's a social worker. And a few years ago, they moved to Oklahoma for Becky's job.

00:08:19 Speaker_07
We purchased the home that we are in now in 22, June of 2021, babe, June-ish.

00:08:28 Speaker_10
Yeah, we moved here at the middle of June 20, no, oh, when we bought the house, yeah.

00:08:35 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:08:35 Speaker_10
So just, and just so you're aware, I have brain damage from my time in Iraq, and so my memory is absolutely, not great. So that's why Becky does most of the talking, because she's basically the memory bank for both of us.

00:08:54 Speaker_11
Ray and Becky were able to buy their home because of one of the key benefits of military service, what's known as a VA home loan. It's a loan that is backed by the Department of Veterans Affairs.

00:09:06 Speaker_02
And these loans date back to World War II. Veterans, all the GIs returning from the war, it was a way for them to get a leg up into the middle class.

00:09:17 Speaker_02
Part of the deal, and part of the reason veterans are a protected class, is because when they come back, you want some stability for them. And so the deal that they get is

00:09:28 Speaker_02
includes health care if they need it and some benefits for disability like Ray has, and also this really sweet home loan with no money down and a really good interest rate.

00:09:39 Speaker_11
And the Queens are able to get that no money down, low rate mortgage in part because the Department of Veterans Affairs acts as this almost like very good, very rich friend for the Queens.

00:09:53 Speaker_11
The VA basically says to mortgage lenders, hey, you can lend to the Queens and we promise one way or another you'll get paid back. And look, this is something the US government does for most people who buy a home.

00:10:06 Speaker_11
You've likely heard of Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae, the FHA. These are the massively rich friends that back most of the home loans in the US and that makes it less risky for banks to make loans and has generally brought mortgage rates down.

00:10:19 Speaker_11
But yeah, anyway. It is the Department of Veterans Affairs that helped Ray and Becky Queen get the house that they show to Chris and Quill.

00:10:28 Speaker_07
And in the kitchen, the kids have not done the dishes, so we'll just ignore that too.

00:10:33 Speaker_03
They gave us a tour of the house, and it's like very comfortable. The kids are hanging out, doing their homework, playing video games, doing stuff outside. It just feels like a place that they've just settled in.

00:10:47 Speaker_02
It's nothing remotely grand or ostentatious, but it feels so homey.

00:10:54 Speaker_07
I got lots of chickens, much to Ray's chagrin.

00:10:57 Speaker_02
On this really cute little farm. It's more farm than house.

00:11:13 Speaker_03
There's this one moment where one of the kids just fires up this four-wheeler ATV thing. It's like kid's size. And he just goes flying off around this field with a helmet on. He's bouncing around. And it looked like so much fun. I was honestly jealous.

00:11:28 Speaker_03
Like, I want to be doing that. That looks great. Well, and it must feel good to have, you know, you've got a house with some land and your kid can go tearing off on the four-wheeler.

00:11:37 Speaker_10
Yeah, it wasn't a possibility when I was a kid for multiple different reasons. So it's great that they're able to explore the things that they want to do. He's an engine guy. He's probably going to be an engineer.

00:11:55 Speaker_10
At almost 11, he's smarter than I am already.

00:12:01 Speaker_02
Like Ray said, he was wounded in Iraq. I don't know, in my experience, sometimes it's hard for these folks to find a peaceful spot, but this looks like his peaceful spot to me.

00:12:14 Speaker_11
When Chris first met the Queens, they were about to lose all of that. During COVID, Becky and Ray were among the millions of Americans who needed the help of mortgage forbearance. Becky's mom died of COVID.

00:12:28 Speaker_11
Becky had to take extended leave from her job and then lost her job. She called up the company that now handles her mortgage payments, and they told her, yeah, you can pause your payments.

00:12:40 Speaker_07
So I'm 41 years old, and I do my research. I'm not just going to be like, oh, sign me up. I don't have to pay you? Cool. I did my research, I looked into everything, I called numerous, numerous times.

00:12:56 Speaker_07
And every time I was told a forbearance is very simple. It's meant to last a short term, up to a year. And at the end of that year, whatever you did not pay is tacked on to the end.

00:13:12 Speaker_11
Right. She says that they told her that when it was time to start making her mortgage payments again, nothing would really change. Those missed payments would move to the end of the loan.

00:13:23 Speaker_11
So basically, if she missed a year of payments, she would still owe those, just way, way down the road.

00:13:29 Speaker_10
The way we were told, explained it, it would be a fairly simple process. You start making payments again and you're done.

00:13:38 Speaker_11
And to be clear, this is a very normal way to restart payments after forbearance. And the vast majority of homeowners who had trouble during COVID were able to resume making their mortgage payments in some affordable way.

00:13:54 Speaker_11
But a lot of military veterans with VA loans were not able to do that.

00:14:00 Speaker_11
When the Queen's forbearance period was up, when they got their repayment options, that simple, affordable version of forbearance where you just move the missed payments to the back of the loan, it was nowhere to be found.

00:14:13 Speaker_03
So they were told they could pay back all of their missed payments all at once, $22,000, which they didn't have, or they could do what's called a loan modification. But rates had gone way up. I mean, mortgage rates had doubled.

00:14:28 Speaker_03
And that meant if they did a loan mod, their payments were going to go up by a huge amount.

00:14:33 Speaker_02
they couldn't afford any of those options. And after arguing on the phone for months with their mortgage company, saying this wasn't supposed to be the deal, they eventually realized they're going to be facing foreclosure.

00:14:45 Speaker_07
And when I tell you that my heart dropped and like my hands were shaking and honest to God, I It was scary.

00:14:54 Speaker_07
I was at work and I ended up leaving and telling Ray that I needed to talk to him before the kids got home from school because that was not something that the kids needed to hear.

00:15:07 Speaker_03
I mean, when I talked to Ray and Becky Queen, they were very close to foreclosure. I mean, you start getting letters in the mail that say like, we're going to foreclose on your house. You know, there's not much time left.

00:15:18 Speaker_03
And they were scared and angry and confused.

00:15:22 Speaker_10
And now we're at the point where we've got to figure out what, you know, do we just, do we give up and give in? Do we give up our property and walk away? And this is supposed to be a program that you're, that y'all

00:15:36 Speaker_10
have to help people in times of crisis not being able to afford their mortgage so you don't take their house from them. Like, I don't understand.

00:15:46 Speaker_11
So what was happening? The clock was ticking on the Queen's home. Chris starts calling, like, everyone, trying to get an answer to what exactly is going on here. I can't remember exactly. One thing led to another, and I finally found a guy.

00:15:59 Speaker_11
We'll call this person a well-positioned source. And Chris wound up talking to a bunch of people to confirm everything. But yes, he found a guy.

00:16:08 Speaker_03
He's like, I'll tell you what I think is going on. And when he explains it, I'm like, oh my God, like, like that makes sense. And it sounds really bad.

00:16:17 Speaker_11
And what that well-positioned source explained to Chris was essentially

00:16:22 Speaker_11
The VA was being a bad rich friend, because you will recall the VA is supposed to be a good rich friend that vouches for veterans, you know, promises lenders that ultimately the VA can take the hit if someone stops paying their mortgage.

00:16:38 Speaker_11
Well, now, when tens of thousands of veterans took COVID forbearance, they paused mortgages temporarily, but it was up to the VA to decide how those missed payments could eventually be paid back.

00:16:52 Speaker_11
Like literally, to decide what the options would be for those homeowners when they were ready to start paying again. Chris has this useful way to picture the whole thing.

00:17:02 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, you kind of think about it this way, right? So you're paying your mortgage, you own your house, it's like you're driving along the freeway. But then crisis hits. You pause your payments, you're pulling off the highway, temporarily.

00:17:13 Speaker_03
Now, when it's time to start paying again, You need an on-ramp to get back onto the highway.

00:17:19 Speaker_03
It appeared that loans backed by Fannie and Freddie or FHA or most other loans in America, that is, the on-ramps were working, people were getting back on, but something didn't seem to be working with the VA loans.

00:17:33 Speaker_11
Yeah, all those other rich friend entities, Fannie, Freddie, et cetera, that help people get mortgages, well, they also got to determine their homeowner's forbearance repayment options, and those all seem to be going fine.

00:17:46 Speaker_11
What Chris's source was telling him was that sometime in October 2022,

00:17:52 Speaker_11
The VA had stopped allowing the one repayment option that Ray and Becky Queen had thought they were getting, where they pause their payments, restart the payments, and the missed payments go all the way to the back of the loan.

00:18:06 Speaker_11
It was the VA's one affordable on-ramp. The VA basically blew up the on-ramp, and people couldn't get back.

00:18:14 Speaker_11
As Chris and Quill dug into this, they discovered that there were as many as 40,000 veterans now stuck, unable to get back onto that mortgage payment highway. 40,000 veterans that were on the path to losing their homes.

00:18:30 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, that was one of the most striking things in all of this, right? It's like veterans are supposed to have better protections than everybody else. What we saw here was most other American homeowners had better protections than veterans.

00:18:47 Speaker_03
It was the veterans who were getting hurt at the end of this COVID forbearance thing.

00:18:51 Speaker_11
Now, again, the Queens were about to lose their house. They say it was scheduled for the next foreclosure auction.

00:18:59 Speaker_11
And this next part of the story, Chris and Quill are just sort of running between the Queens and the Department of Veterans Affairs, just trying to figure out why the VA blew up the on-ramp.

00:19:11 Speaker_11
And so they go to the VA, and they ask, why did you do this? Why did you blow up the one affordable option for veterans to start repaying their mortgage?

00:19:18 Speaker_02
And Quill says they were told, quote, We only had short-term authority for that specific program during COVID, and this wasn't part of our normal authority. Does that mean anything? It didn't mean anything, didn't make any sense to me.

00:19:31 Speaker_03
Well, I mean, technically it means something, right? That they thought they had no choice but to turn off this option.

00:19:37 Speaker_03
But I mean, the thing that doesn't seem to add up or make any sense in that, it's like, you know, when we went to the VA, there were 6,000 veterans on the verge of foreclosure, in the foreclosure process. A total of 40,000 vets headed that direction.

00:19:53 Speaker_03
I mean, you would think the VA would be jumping up and down saying, like, we've got a serious problem. We have to shut down this thing that's going to strand all these veterans. We need help. Congress, somebody, please. And it wasn't that.

00:20:05 Speaker_03
I mean, it was like, it seemed like somewhere in a dark room late at night, somebody pulled the plug. It was bizarre.

00:20:13 Speaker_11
Now, the VA did seem to know there was a problem, to be fair. They said that they were working on a new on-ramp, if you will, a new way for people to start repaying again by sort of resetting the mortgage to a super low interest rate.

00:20:28 Speaker_11
the VA admitted to Chris and Quill, that whole thing wasn't going to be ready for months.

00:20:35 Speaker_03
So it was like, oh, there is a raging fire, you know, basically. And they have these fire trucks, but they don't have the wheels on them and the hoses. And that's not all going to be built for like maybe six months from now.

00:20:48 Speaker_03
So all the houses were going to be burned down. before the VA's rescue plan was like on the road. I mean, it just like, this is what you're doing.

00:20:57 Speaker_11
Chris and Quill go back to Ray Queen, explain all of this. And Ray is like, well, if the fix is coming, don't foreclose on us. Like give the fire trucks time to show up.

00:21:09 Speaker_10
Let us keep paying towards our regular mortgage between now and then, and then once the VA has that fixed, then we come back and we address the situation. That seems like the adult, mature thing to do, not put a family through hell.

00:21:25 Speaker_11
Chris and Quill go back to the VA, manage to get a sit-down interview with the person in charge of the VA loan program, John Bell, and just tell him what Ray said.

00:21:38 Speaker_03
why put families through hell, he said, if we don't have to, you know, if there's going to be help in a few months.

00:21:44 Speaker_05
I haven't said through this interview that we aren't exploring all options at this point in time, because we certainly are. We owe it to our veterans to make sure that we're giving them every opportunity to be able to stay in the home.

00:21:58 Speaker_11
In other words, still no help for Ray and Becky, and any other veterans about to lose their houses. So this time, Chris goes to the airwaves.

00:22:09 Speaker_00
An NPR investigation has found that thousands of U.S. military service members and veterans could lose their homes through no fault of their own. As NPR's Chris Arnold reports.

00:22:18 Speaker_11
Chris puts all of this reporting into a story, includes the Queens.

00:22:23 Speaker_03
Ray and Becky Queen are showing us around their farm in Bartlesville, Oklahoma.

00:22:28 Speaker_11
And this is where things really start to kind of blow up.

00:22:33 Speaker_03
So yeah, so this time we do the story and four powerful U.S. senators who head major committees fire off a letter to the VA and they were basically like, WTF? What is going on?

00:22:43 Speaker_11
Uh-huh. WTF your own, your own language there, I assume, not the senatorial.

00:22:47 Speaker_03
That was not, yeah, that's not technically what they wrote, but that was the spirit of the, of the letter.

00:22:51 Speaker_11
Chris and Quill would later call up one of those senators, Montana Democrat John Tester.

00:22:55 Speaker_01
Don't let this go to your head. It was your coverage that brought this to our attention.

00:22:59 Speaker_03
Thank you, Senator.

00:23:01 Speaker_11
Tester is chairman of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee. So, you know, he's in charge of the committee that oversees the VA.

00:23:08 Speaker_01
The truth is, we have a little more access to them than you do. So we pound on them. regularly, we're gonna continue to pound on them.

00:23:14 Speaker_11
So yeah, this angry letter from Tester and the other senators went off to the VA.

00:23:19 Speaker_03
And then by the end of the week, the VA actually, you know, hats off, I mean, responded and stopped foreclosures on every single veteran in the United States of America for six months. So what did that mean for the Queens in that moment?

00:23:32 Speaker_02
Yeah, I mean, it means suddenly everyone was safe for at least six months. There's a pause, no one's gonna get foreclosed.

00:23:40 Speaker_02
You know, even for, like I say, veteran stories have a lot of political heft to them and politicians do like to be seen to be doing stuff for veterans. But this is the fastest I've ever seen a story have a real world effect in 30 years.

00:23:59 Speaker_10
She just, I just heard her car, so she just. Oh, great. Yeah, we'll wait two seconds.

00:24:04 Speaker_11
Chris called the Queens before news about the foreclosure moratorium had gotten out.

00:24:10 Speaker_03
So I heard from the VA tonight at six o'clock on a Friday, but they sent me a statement here.

00:24:22 Speaker_03
And basically, it says that the VA is now going to stop foreclosing on anybody with a VA loan for the next six months while they figure out this new program and get it up and running.

00:24:35 Speaker_03
So people in your guy's situation can take advantage of it and not lose your house for no reason. That's awesome. Yeah. So I just wanted to tell you guys that and then see, like, what your take is on, you know, what?

00:24:46 Speaker_03
Because I know every you guys have been stressed and it's been rough and, you know,

00:24:50 Speaker_10
Yeah, I mean, it sucks that it had to get to this point to get them to do that, but the fact that telling our story and getting some sort of justice for what's going on with our problems and everything else also helps 40,000 other veterans, that's absolutely amazing to me.

00:25:11 Speaker_11
Okay, it's been a year since that phone call. After the break, Everything is fixed. No, no, no way.

00:25:20 Speaker_03
No, it's not.

00:25:22 Speaker_02
Nah, not fixed.

00:25:28 Speaker_04
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00:25:38 Speaker_04
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00:26:14 Speaker_08
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00:26:50 Speaker_11
So a foreclosure pause is useful, but the whole point of that was to buy time for the Department of Veterans Affairs to roll out this permanent fix, this program that it was calling VASP.

00:27:07 Speaker_03
So what VASP is gonna do is... What does that stand for, VASP?

00:27:13 Speaker_02
Uh, veterans, the V has to be veterans. Uh, veterans affairs. Veterans affairs servicing purchase program. Purchase program.

00:27:23 Speaker_11
Let's call it the bailout plan. Good plan. So, the bailout plan. If you are a veteran who is facing foreclosure, the VA will go to the bank, or more likely the investors who hold your mortgage, and they will take the mortgage back from them.

00:27:39 Speaker_03
Put it in its own portfolio of mortgages, like the VA becomes a bank. And then since the VA is the bank, the VA can give you any interest rate it wants. So it could say, Kenny, you got a 2% loan. It's going to be very affordable. Problem solved.

00:27:54 Speaker_11
Yeah, the bailout essentially gives the VA the ability to take over the mortgages of veterans like the Queens and then allow the Queens to restart affordable mortgage payments.

00:28:05 Speaker_11
Specifically at 2.5% for up to 40 years, it lets the VA offer a new on-ramp back onto the old mortgage payment highway.

00:28:15 Speaker_03
So, I mean, it is a good, it's a good fix and it's gonna help thousands of people.

00:28:21 Speaker_11
Except... We do have one final stop on this story, because during their year of reporting, Chris and Quill kept looking at this solution, this bailout, and saying, I think there is a huge hole in this VA fix.

00:28:39 Speaker_11
A big group of veterans getting left out here.

00:28:42 Speaker_02
So, you know, the thing is, we went to see the Queens north of Tulsa, but in the meantime, we'd heard from another veteran who lives in Tulsa, and it didn't look like any of this was going to help her at all. So? I think we should pull in the driveway.

00:28:58 Speaker_02
I'll pull right here.

00:29:00 Speaker_11
Chris and Quill went and visited. Hey, how are you doing?

00:29:04 Speaker_09
Hi, she's friendly, but she's going to want to jake you out before.

00:29:07 Speaker_02
Okay.

00:29:08 Speaker_09
Come on, Seagrid.

00:29:09 Speaker_02
So we met Natalie Donaldson and her pit bull, Seagrid, and she's an Army vet. She served as a military police officer. Now she's a school teacher, and she bought her house with a VA home loan.

00:29:22 Speaker_09
Does anybody want a piece of coffee candy? Coffee candy's good.

00:29:25 Speaker_06
I love these things.

00:29:29 Speaker_09
There's more right here.

00:29:31 Speaker_03
It's sort of this little cottagey place, and it's really nice. The walls are very solid colors, which makes it kind of stately, and it's neat as a pin. The inside is like everything has a place.

00:29:44 Speaker_09
When I come in here in the spring and that blooming, I'm like, oh my God, that's beautiful.

00:29:48 Speaker_03
When she showed us around, you could kind of hear how this house and the last few years of her life, which were rough, it's been a rough time, and it's all kind of tangled up together. And at one point she's like pointing out to the backyard.

00:30:03 Speaker_09
I used to have a meadow back there. It was so beautiful. But last spring, my mom had a heart attack and then my grandpa passed like a couple months after that. And that meadow did not get the attention that it needed or deserved.

00:30:15 Speaker_09
So this year I just mowed it all down and I'm starting over. So it's kind of scary back there.

00:30:19 Speaker_11
Natalie had a very similar story to the Queens. During COVID, she had to stop working to take care of sick family, got forbearance on her VA loan, and then one day gets word that she cannot just start up payments again like she thought.

00:30:34 Speaker_11
Like the affordable on-ramp she thought that she would have was gone. And just like the queens, she was instead presented with very bad on-ramps back to repayment. And these will sound very familiar.

00:30:47 Speaker_11
On-ramp number one, pay all the money back at once, more than $15,000 in this case. That's a lot of money. And she couldn't do it, and they offered her this mod. On ramp number two, take a loan modification.

00:31:02 Speaker_11
Again, basically a whole new mortgage, but interest rates had gone way up.

00:31:07 Speaker_02
And then suddenly she's owing $1,250 a month instead of $800 a month. And that just, that's a big jump.

00:31:15 Speaker_11
And to be clear here, this is all happening before the foreclosure pause, before that moratorium. So these were the only two options, the only two on-ramps for Natalie to resume payment and keep her house.

00:31:29 Speaker_11
Natalie's mortgage company gives her a deadline to decide whether or not to take on those higher payments.

00:31:36 Speaker_09
Finally, the date has come and gone. And they're calling me. They're calling me every day. And I'm on the phone with the girl. Actually, I was in bed. And I had the stuff spread out in front of me. And she said, you have to sign it. You have to.

00:31:54 Speaker_09
Otherwise, we're going to foreclose on your home. And I'm telling her again, it's not sustainable. I can't do this. I don't know what to do.

00:32:06 Speaker_11
So unlike the queens, Natalie decided to try somehow to make this loan modification thing work. Suddenly her monthly payments were 50% higher and she picked up every spare piece of work that she could find.

00:32:20 Speaker_09
Tuesday, I was doing one after school program. Thursday, I was doing one after school program. And Wednesday, I was doing another one. And so I'm just doing all this stuff so that I can make all this money so I can try to pay my house payment.

00:32:35 Speaker_09
I mean, I was just in survival mode. I just went to work. I came home. I kind of shut down. I just, I said, I can't do this anymore.

00:32:44 Speaker_11
But she is still somehow doing it. And ironically, it is the fact that Natalie decided to try and make this higher mortgage thing work that is the problem.

00:32:57 Speaker_11
Because the bailout, the VASP program, it is only for people who have stopped making payments and are headed towards foreclosure, which puts someone like Natalie in a rough spot.

00:33:09 Speaker_03
So yeah, I mean, what, what could happen if she strategically defaults, it's called, you just decide I'm going to stop paying my mortgage. So I'll get behind and then I'll qualify for the help.

00:33:21 Speaker_03
But it's, you know, it's like really like, you're going to put people through that when you could just give them access to the program.

00:33:28 Speaker_11
Yeah, strategic default would give some people in Natalie's situation access to the bailout program, but it would wreck Natalie's credit and her ability to get a loan anytime soon.

00:33:39 Speaker_11
And so she's still hustling, still scraping together those way higher monthly payments.

00:33:46 Speaker_03
Oh, you know, one thing, if we are in a press conference with the VA secretary, McDonough, what would you want to tell him? What would you want to say?

00:33:58 Speaker_09
Just say, please help me too, help us too. All these other people, it's fixed for them and I'm so happy for them, but I want, I need that for myself too. I want some semblance of what my life was before I did this.

00:34:23 Speaker_11
Chris and Quill have been trying to figure out how many Natalie's there are out there. People who will not be helped by the big bailout plan, but probably still need help.

00:34:33 Speaker_11
So they asked the VA, did not get an answer, and then they FOIA'd a bunch of documents. They got a bunch of documents through the Freedom of Information Act.

00:34:43 Speaker_11
And those appear to show that about 3,000 veterans took a loan modification and ended up paying at least 25% more per month. And some paid a lot more.

00:34:56 Speaker_11
At least 1,000 vets ended up with monthly payments that were 50% higher than before, just like Natalie.

00:35:03 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, this is not the way forbearance plans are supposed to work. I mean, the whole point is someone has to stop paying for a bit. They need to get back on track. So you give them an affordable way to start paying again.

00:35:16 Speaker_03
But your payment's going up by 50 percent or more. Obviously, something's broken, you know, but so far. they're not getting any help from the VA to make it right.

00:35:26 Speaker_11
The Department of Veterans Affairs holds these press conferences every month with like the person in charge, the head of the VA, Secretary Dennis McDonough. And for the last year. Good afternoon, Quill. Hey, thanks. Can y'all hear me? Yeah, we got you.

00:35:42 Speaker_11
Basically every month. We'll go to Chris.

00:35:46 Speaker_03
Good afternoon, Chris. Thanks. Quill's on vacation, so you guys are stuck with me.

00:35:51 Speaker_11
Chris and Quill have been showing up and asking about VA mortgages.

00:35:57 Speaker_02
And I think you'll know that I want to ask you about the foreclosures.

00:36:02 Speaker_06
Yeah, so Quill, thanks so much. I'm glad that you asked about this question. We anticipated you might. Not sure why we thought that.

00:36:10 Speaker_11
At the most recent of these press conferences. Thanks, Dan. We'll go to Quill.

00:36:14 Speaker_02
Thanks very much. This week, I was in Oklahoma meeting with a former MP who served in the 90s.

00:36:22 Speaker_11
Will got the chance to ask the VA secretary Natalie Donaldson's specific question.

00:36:29 Speaker_02
So she wants to know, what are you going to do to help veterans in her situation who were, as they consider, duped into taking this VA forbearance, which had no on-ramp back onto solvency, and the current fix doesn't seem to affect them?

00:36:50 Speaker_06
Well, thanks very much for the question, Quill. We are working all that data through.

00:36:58 Speaker_06
I don't have an answer on your question about similarly situated veterans, and you'll be among the first to know, but I don't have any news for you on that right now.

00:37:08 Speaker_02
Yeah, the VA finally did give us a clear answer in a statement, and it doesn't directly address Natalie, but they said that They don't have the authority, they say, to include people like Natalie in the bailout plan.

00:37:25 Speaker_02
The bailout plan, they are only allowed to use to take over someone's mortgage if they have defaulted on it. And Natalie hasn't defaulted. So they did say, however, that people like that, they did say that

00:37:39 Speaker_02
veterans who are in trouble should reach out to the VA for help?

00:37:42 Speaker_03
I mean, look, to be clear, the VA did help a lot of veterans through this whole forbearance thing before it went off the rails and before the on-ramp got blown up.

00:37:53 Speaker_03
And when we learned about Ray and Becky Queen and other veterans in their situation and we exposed this whole thing, they acted very quickly to stop foreclosures on veterans all across the country. So I mean, they seem to be very sincere about wanting

00:38:07 Speaker_03
to do the right thing and help vets. But since then, we keep asking them about people like Natalie, who ended up in these brutally more expensive mortgages, this group of people like her.

00:38:21 Speaker_03
And now the VA is saying, well, we don't have the authority to include them in our rescue plan. That sounds like the exact same explanation that they had when we asked them, well, why did you blow up the on-ramp in the first place?

00:38:36 Speaker_03
And it's like, well, can't you just ask for the authority? Can't you find a workaround? I mean, there are still thousands of veterans who got hurt here. They didn't do anything wrong. But as it stands right now, they are excluded from this rescue plan.

00:38:52 Speaker_11
As of this recording, the bailout plan, VASP, has just started to be rolled out. Today's episode was produced by James Snead. It was edited by Meg Kramer and fact-checked by Danya Suleiman. Engineering by Sina Lafredo.

00:39:23 Speaker_11
Alex Goldmark is Planet Money's executive producer. And a very, very special thanks this week to Robert Benincasa and Bob Little. I'm Kenny Malone. This is NPR. Thanks for listening.

00:39:41 Speaker_04
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00:39:52 Speaker_04
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