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Episode: The Search for Sheree | The Supper Club | 4

Author: KSL Podcasts | Wondery
Duration: 01:18:58

Episode Shownotes

An anonymous caller reports finding a body in the mountains, near Causey Reservoir. Police search, thinking they might find the remains of Sheree Warren. Ogden detectives try to link Cary Hartmann and the lingerie survey phone calls to the Ogden City Rapist, but the case isn’t as simple as it

seems. New witnesses place Sheree Warren with Cary on the night of her disappearance.Season 3 of Cold includes descriptions of rape, sexual assault, murder and domestic violence. Please take care when listening.Follow Cold Season 3: The Search for Sheree wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all 10 episodes ad-free only on Amazon Music. Or you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+ in Apple Podcasts or the Wondery App.Please support us by supporting our sponsors!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Full Transcript

00:00:01 Speaker_02
This season of The Cold Podcast includes descriptions of rape, sexual assault, murder, and domestic violence. Please take care in listening. Lieber County Sheriff's Dispatcher Shelly Mann took a call just after noon on April 3rd, 1987.

00:00:25 Speaker_12
I remember getting a call from an anonymous caller.

00:00:28 Speaker_13
He was pretty vague. He couldn't really describe it because it was in a remote area.

00:00:49 Speaker_12
and you would have to have a special map to find it.

00:00:52 Speaker_13
He didn't want to give me his name and number, so I asked him if he could hold on for just a minute, and I put him on hold. Then I was trying to find somebody, but there was nobody in the building. By the time I got back to him, he had hung up.

00:01:18 Speaker_02
Shelley was 23, a couple of years into what would become a lifelong career as a dispatcher.

00:01:23 Speaker_12
And I remember so many calls over the years that still stick with me. I feel like I have PTSD from a lot of calls.

00:01:33 Speaker_02
This call wasn't on that list, at least not until Shelley heard it for the first time in more than 30 years in season two of this podcast.

00:01:41 Speaker_12
It's a little bit odd hearing my own voice after that many years. A little bit strange.

00:01:47 Speaker_02
She hadn't realized searchers never found the body.

00:01:50 Speaker_12
And this one now will hang on to me forever, wishing I could have done more.

00:01:56 Speaker_02
The anonymous caller made two calls to police that day. The first went to Roy City Police, who were at that time investigating the disappearance of Sheree Warren. Maybe the anonymous caller knew Roy Police were looking for Sheree. Maybe he lived in Roy.

00:02:10 Speaker_02
Or maybe it was just coincidence. The man didn't mention Sheree by name, and the dispatcher, realizing the body was outside Roy's city boundaries, not Roy Police's jurisdiction, told the man to instead call the Weber County Sheriff's Office.

00:02:26 Speaker_02
That's how he had ended up talking to Shelley.

00:02:28 Speaker_12
That was a long time ago.

00:02:31 Speaker_02
Weber County mobilized its search and rescue team to look for the body in the days that followed, but they weren't able to go far into the mountains around Causey because winter snow still covered the high country. Their search came up empty.

00:02:45 Speaker_02
In the last season of Cold, we explored how this anonymous phone call influenced the search for another missing Weber County woman, Joyce Yost.

00:02:54 Speaker_02
But in this episode, we're going to hear why evidence I've since uncovered strongly suggests the body more likely belonged to Cherie Warren. This is Cold, season three, episode four, The Supper Club. From KSL Podcasts, I'm Dave Cauley.

00:03:21 Speaker_02
One day after, the anonymous caller reported finding a body in the mountains east of Ogden. An Ogden woman received an odd phone call of her own.

00:03:30 Speaker_15
Hi, I'm calling to conduct a survey in an attempt to find some answers about the woman of the 80s. Is she taller, shorter, thinner, heavier, etc.?

00:03:40 Speaker_02
This is a recreation based on what the woman told police the caller said.

00:03:44 Speaker_15
We feel it's important to ask her and get her feelings and opinions about the lifestyle she is living in the 80s.

00:03:51 Speaker_02
The caller rattled off questions about family and fashion before turning to lingerie, anatomy, and sexual preferences. Another woman received a similar call the next day and another a week later.

00:04:03 Speaker_02
Ogden Police Detective Chris Zimmerman saw those calls going out from Carrie Hartman's phone, thanks to the pen register he had placed on Carrie's line. The pen register wasn't a wiretap.

00:04:13 Speaker_02
It didn't record the audio of those calls, but it did log every number dialed. Zimmerman declined an interview for this podcast, but I've obtained his reports and personal notes from this case. Here's what he wrote about it.

00:04:26 Speaker_19
Within a day of the numbers being recorded on the tape, I have called several of the numbers that were called.

00:04:32 Speaker_19
All ladies contacted state they did receive a magazine survey at the time listed on the tape, and all say the questions are the same wording dealing with female clothing, the female body, and sex.

00:04:43 Speaker_02
At the start of May, a woman named Teresa received one of those survey calls. She remained on the line through Kerry's questions, even the explicit ones.

00:04:52 Speaker_02
They agreed to meet for drinks at Sebastian's, the same bar Kerry had visited the night Sheree Warren disappeared. Zimmerman believed Kerry had gone through the phone book, picking female names and calling them at random.

00:05:03 Speaker_02
He took his findings to Weber County Attorney Reed Richards.

00:05:07 Speaker_18
There were phone records that showed that he had made literally thousands of those types of calls, which was pretty bizarre.

00:05:13 Speaker_02
Literally thousands of lingerie survey phone calls. We'll never know the total number, but police wrote in an average month during 1986, Carey had made between 500 and 600 lingerie survey calls.

00:05:28 Speaker_02
Keep up that pace for a year and you'd be looking at more than 6,000 phone calls.

00:05:33 Speaker_18
talking to women about all sorts of goofy topics.

00:05:36 Speaker_02
Goofy to read. Terrifying to many of the women. One of those women spoke to Detective Chris Zimmerman. She told him she had recognized the survey caller's voice. He was Kerry Hartman.

00:05:50 Speaker_02
They had dated several years before, and she had heard him making lingerie survey calls back then. She had been around Kerry one time in 86, and had fished in his coat pocket while he wasn't looking.

00:06:01 Speaker_02
He had carried a small black book full of names and phone numbers, along with notes about how various women had responded to the survey questions.

00:06:09 Speaker_18
tends to indicate probably a guy that's perverted. And that's, I think, what he was.

00:06:14 Speaker_02
Prosecutor Reed Richards was well aware of the rash of home invasion rapes that had rocked Ogden City for more than two years. Detective Chris Zimmerman told Reed he could tie Carrie Hartman to at least a handful of those rapes.

00:06:28 Speaker_18
They were fairly unique. They all involved young women, usually 19 to 25. They were all women that were not with their husband, either separated or never been married. They all had young children.

00:06:40 Speaker_18
He would threaten to hurt or kill the child if the woman made any noise. And he claimed to have access to police records, and that if they went to the police, he said he'd know and he'd come back and kill the child.

00:06:51 Speaker_02
The time had come to pull Kerry in for questioning.

00:06:54 Speaker_18
So we had to strategize the best way to try to deal with that.

00:06:58 Speaker_02
Kerry still had friends within the ranks of the Ogden Police Department from his time in the reserves.

00:07:04 Speaker_18
We decided we'd find somebody that kind of knew him from his association with the police and that was a good interrogator and a fairly congenial guy and so we landed on Chris Zimmerman.

00:07:14 Speaker_02
Ogden Police Detective Chris Zimmerman, the guy who'd once issued a phony parking ticket to President Ronald Reagan. Zimmerman called Roy Police Detective Jack Bell, who was leading the investigation into Sheri Warren's disappearance.

00:07:27 Speaker_02
Zimmerman briefed Jack on the new evidence that suggested Carrie Hartman had been making hundreds of lingerie survey phone calls. Exactly. It had been going on for quite a while. And Zimmerman believed Carey could be the Ogden City rapist.

00:07:43 Speaker_02
Jack told Zimmerman he had started to suspect Carey had killed Cherie Warren. I'm still looking at Chuck, but... But Jack hadn't found any direct evidence linking Cherie's estranged husband, Chuck Warren, to her disappearance.

00:07:57 Speaker_02
So Jack... Shifted gears from Chuck to Carey. Detectives Jack Bell and Chris Zimmerman agreed to work together. They came up with a plan. Zimmerman would call Kerry into Ogden Police Headquarters for an interview.

00:08:12 Speaker_02
While he was there, Jack and the other detectives would serve a search warrant at Kerry's apartment. They would use the lingerie survey phone calls as grounds for the warrant.

00:08:21 Speaker_02
But while in the apartment, the detectives would keep an eye out for anything that might tie Kerry to the rapes or the suspected murder of Shuri Warren.

00:08:31 Speaker_02
In an odd twist, Carey called Ogden Police himself the night before the detectives were to execute this plan. He phoned OPD to report his own case of telephone harassment.

00:08:42 Speaker_02
According to a police report, Carey said he had received a rash of eerie phone calls. Carey was then dating a woman named Shauna. An anonymous source would later tell police Carey and Shawna had met through one of his lingerie survey calls.

00:08:56 Speaker_02
Shawna had started seeing Carey despite still being married to a man named Roger Hall. Court records show Shawna filed for divorce from Roger in January of 87, and it had not gone smoothly.

00:09:09 Speaker_02
Roger filed a half million dollar civil lawsuit against Carey, accusing him of seducing Shawna into infidelity. The bad blood between Roger and Carey simmered for months.

00:09:21 Speaker_02
Carey believed Roger and his girlfriend's brother-in-law, a guy named Melvin Feller, had both been calling his home phone and hanging up in an effort to annoy and intimidate him.

00:09:31 Speaker_02
He told an Ogden police officer he might just go take care of Roger himself, physically, if the police wouldn't do anything. The officer urged Carey not to do anything rash.

00:09:44 Speaker_02
Kerry had gone to work the next morning and at noon stopped by a burger joint for lunch with two co-workers. Melvin Feller just happened to be there. Kerry pulled out a pen and paper and started jotting notes, presumably to provide to police.

00:09:57 Speaker_20
I was writing down his plate number when he said something smart-ass. I walked over to him and I said, don't mess with me. These are Kerry's notes, read by a voice actor. He said, Shauna and you will never have anything.

00:10:09 Speaker_20
Kerry had allegedly replied, quote, see you dead. I walked away. He provoked me again by saying something crude. He called me a pervert and adulterer.

00:10:21 Speaker_02
Melvin told police he had called Carey a child molester. He reportedly said Carey had responded, quote, I don't molest children. I only molest women. I again said, Melvin, leave me alone.

00:10:33 Speaker_02
Detectives notes say Melvin said Carey told him, quote, you don't know how easy it is to kill somebody. Melvin left the restaurant. As he drove away, he shouted back, see ya, Cary Fartman.

00:10:50 Speaker_20
The man is a nut, very childlike.

00:10:54 Speaker_02
Later that evening, Ogden Police Detective Chris Zimmerman dropped by Cary's apartment.

00:10:59 Speaker_02
He asked Cary to come down to police headquarters to talk out the whole situation with Roger Hall and Melvin Feller, the two guys Cary believed had bombarded him with harassing telephone calls.

00:11:10 Speaker_02
But when Kerry arrived at Ogden Police Headquarters, Zimmerman instead confronted him about the lingerie survey calls. Here's what Zimmerman wrote in his report.

00:11:19 Speaker_19
He admitted to making these calls, stating it was a problem he had, and it was a sexual problem, and he'd been making the calls for over seven years.

00:11:27 Speaker_02
Zimmerman brought up one of the rapes. He told Carey about the woman, who I'm calling Danielle, who had remembered meeting him at the sewing machine repair shop, who had later recognized his voice while at the bar where he worked, The Galleon.

00:11:40 Speaker_19
I asked if he did do the sexual assault, and he denied it. Hartman stated he had no idea where he was at the time, but he had never raped anyone. He couldn't stand the word rape and would never think of raping anyone.

00:11:54 Speaker_02
Zimmerman asked if Carey would take a polygraph. He said he would. So the detective drove Carey to a nearby testing facility. A polygraph examiner hooked him up to the machine and asked if he had ever raped anyone, if he had entered Danielle's home.

00:12:08 Speaker_02
Carey answered no. The examiner said Carey's physical reactions indicated deception.

00:12:15 Speaker_19
I asked if he would like to take another test and he stated yes. Hartman was allowed to leave and I advised him I would set up another test.

00:12:25 Speaker_02
A short time later, Zimmerman received a phone call. Carey had arrived home to find his apartment trashed. While he had been away, Jack Bell and a pair of Ogden detectives had served their search warrant.

00:12:36 Speaker_02
They had taken Carey's little black book, a day planner, and a Playboy calendar. He was furious.

00:12:43 Speaker_19
I explained they had to search the entire house and they were careful, but it causes messes sometimes. Hartman stated, I feel like I've just been raped. And he hung up the phone.

00:12:56 Speaker_02
Kerry returned to Ogden Police Headquarters on the morning of Friday, May 8th, for his second polygraph. Zimmerman had arranged to have an outside agency conduct the second test.

00:13:05 Speaker_02
He drove Kerry to neighboring Davis County, where a sheriff's deputy was standing by. They did three runs through. The results again showed deception, and much more strongly this time. That's probably because the deputy tossed in a new question.

00:13:20 Speaker_02
Had Carey asked Danielle if she was 16 years old while having sex with her?

00:13:25 Speaker_19
This was something only the victim, the police department, and the suspect would have access to.

00:13:30 Speaker_02
It was never released to the media. Carey denied ever having asked anyone their age during sex. He said he didn't know Danielle and had never had any sexual contact with her.

00:13:42 Speaker_02
In a report, the deputy said in his opinion, Carey was, quote, being deceptive in his answers. With the polygraph done, Detective Zimmerman faced a crossroads.

00:13:53 Speaker_02
He didn't have enough for an arrest, so he could cut Carey loose or try to turn up the heat. But to do that, he would need help.

00:14:03 Speaker_02
Because Zimmerman and Carey knew one another from Carey's time in the police reserve, it made sense for Zimmerman to play good cop. So he introduced Carey to bad cop, a detective Carey didn't know named John Stubbs.

00:14:20 Speaker_11
John Stubbs. A good detective. No two ways about it.

00:14:25 Speaker_02
Jack Bell told me Stubbs was an old school cop. Abrasive and intimidating. Stubbs died in 2017, so I wasn't able to interview him.

00:14:34 Speaker_11
But he was a very good detective. Could read people really well.

00:14:40 Speaker_02
Stubbs grilled Carey for four hours. I wish I could play you audio of that, but it doesn't exist. Ogden police just didn't record their interviews back in the 80s. The best we've got is a report Detective Stubbs wrote a couple weeks later.

00:14:56 Speaker_02
It says Stubbs asked Carey why he'd failed the polygraph. Carey reportedly said he didn't know. Stubbs said, you failed because you lied during the test.

00:15:07 Speaker_02
Stubbs wrote, Hartman, losing his temper now, said, OK, it made me remember some things about... At this point, his eyes got rather large and he seemed to suddenly realize what he was saying and stopped himself mid-sentence.

00:15:20 Speaker_02
I said, it made you remember some things that you don't really want to remember, didn't it? Hartman would not respond to that at all. Chris Zimmerman observed the interrogation through a pane of mirrored glass.

00:15:34 Speaker_19
Hartman stated he didn't have to rape girls. He stated that he's gone to houses and girls will let him in, and then he would talk them into sex, but he never had to force anyone.

00:15:46 Speaker_02
It wasn't quite an admission. Zimmerman wasn't sure what to do. Once Stubbs had finished, Zimmerman took Carey to his car and started driving back toward Ogden Police Headquarters.

00:15:57 Speaker_19
About two minutes after I started driving, Hartman said to me that he wanted me to know he didn't rape anyone. I asked why he was remembering the part about the 16-year-old, and he stated he wasn't sure.

00:16:09 Speaker_19
He was trying to answer, and he wanted to tell me. At this time, it appeared Hartman wanted to confess but couldn't do it.

00:16:17 Speaker_19
I advised Hartman that I felt he couldn't confess because in his mind, Carrie Hartman didn't do it, that another personality in Hartman was making him do this. I then asked if that was possible, and he said yes.

00:16:32 Speaker_02
It seems a little strange for Zimmerman to have suggested this split personality idea out of the blue. But remember, he was playing good cop.

00:16:41 Speaker_02
By suggesting another personality had done the deed, Zimmerman was giving Carey an opportunity to say what had happened without taking responsibility.

00:16:51 Speaker_02
They hadn't quite made it back to Ogden Police Headquarters when Zimmerman suggested they drive by Danielle's house to see if it might jog Carey's memory.

00:17:00 Speaker_19
I stopped at the stop sign at 2450 Custer. Hartman stated, this is it. This is real familiar. He said, this is scary, Chris. They pulled up to the curb. I asked him to tell me how he got in and he said it was a window.

00:17:18 Speaker_19
He stated he pulled off a screen and the window was unlocked. So he went in. He stated he went in and laid on the bed beside the girl.

00:17:28 Speaker_02
I won't repeat the specific details of the assault, but Zimmerman wrote everything Carey said was fairly accurate compared to what Danielle had described.

00:17:36 Speaker_19
Hartman stated that he really felt the girl enjoyed this, so he didn't feel he was forcing it. When I advised him that she probably didn't fight because she was so scared, he said, oh, great, as if he was sad and disappointed.

00:17:50 Speaker_02
Carey reportedly admitted he had first seen Danielle at his friend Dave Moore's sewing machine repair shop.

00:17:56 Speaker_19
I asked how he got her address and he stated he was good with numbers and he remembered everything.

00:18:03 Speaker_02
They went to OPD headquarters. Zimmerman sat Carrie down and they went through it again.

00:18:08 Speaker_19
I then advised Kerry that there were several other sexual assaults in the area around his house on 7th Street, and I felt he did them. Kerry immediately asked if he had hurt anyone. He stated he couldn't remember details. He wanted to, but couldn't.

00:18:23 Speaker_02
Kerry reportedly said he sometimes woke up exhausted in the morning because he would go out walking or driving at 3 or 4 a.m. Zimmerman knew many of the rapes had occurred around 4 a.m.

00:18:34 Speaker_19
I asked how many times he had woke up in the morning and knew he'd done something wrong to another girl, and he stated, a half dozen times or more, Chris.

00:18:44 Speaker_02
Zimmerman wrote, quote, I questioned him on threatening the children. He wouldn't deny it. He just stated he would never hurt a child, that he loves his children.

00:18:53 Speaker_19
He stated he was always nice and gentle and he used to have a problem with beating his first wives, but he was over that.

00:19:01 Speaker_02
Zimmerman decided to take carry out for another drive. He cruised by several of the victims' homes. I don't have time to go through them all, but we'll highlight this one.

00:19:10 Speaker_19
I asked if he remembered any other girls, and he said there was a pretty blonde he always saw at Quick Mart. I pointed to Carquick at 7th and Washington and asked if that is where he saw the blonde.

00:19:21 Speaker_19
He said yes, and stated she lived right up the street.

00:19:25 Speaker_02
This woman, who I'm calling Caroline, lived near Carrie's old apartment on Ogden's 7th Street. Zimmerman pulled the car around the block from the convenience store.

00:19:34 Speaker_19
As I turned, he pointed to the red brick duplex on the corner and told me she lived there. He then pointed to the correct door of the duplex. When I asked which door, he then stated the curtains were open and I could see her.

00:19:49 Speaker_02
Zimmerman remembered having seen footprints in a flowerbed in front of that same window the morning after the rape.

00:20:05 Speaker_19
He stated he kneeled beside the couch and started to kiss her, and it frightened her, so he told her, I didn't mean to scare you.

00:20:14 Speaker_02
Again, I won't repeat the details of the sexual assault itself. It's only important to know Carey's description mostly aligned with what Caroline had told police. She thought her attacker had come through the back door, not the front.

00:20:27 Speaker_19
Hartman stated that the girl really didn't resist, that she really liked it.

00:20:35 Speaker_02
They returned to OPD headquarters around 5.30 p.m. Zimmerman left Kerry with his boss, Captain Marlon Balls, for a few minutes. Balls wrote in a report Kerry seemed concerned his friends would think he was a real sleazeball.

00:20:49 Speaker_02
He acted grateful Zimmerman hadn't treated him like a, quote, dirtbag. Carey's friends included a lot of guys within the OPD ranks. He was actually planning on joining Balls, Zimmerman, and others on a hunting trip to Idaho in a matter of days.

00:21:06 Speaker_02
Balls assured him it would just be a matter of time before this was all over. Zimmerman returned and told Carey they were taking one more drive. This time it was to the Weber County Jail.

00:21:20 Speaker_02
He booked Carey on suspicion of two counts each of aggravated sexual assault and burglary for the attacks on Danielle and Caroline. The following morning, a judge set Carey's bail at $30,000.

00:21:34 Speaker_02
Carey's girlfriend, Shauna Hall, and his parents got a bail bondsman to put up the cash. He was out of jail in less than 24 hours. Carey arrived home at his apartment Saturday evening to find a message on his machine.

00:21:47 Speaker_02
It was from Teresa, the woman he had placed a lingerie survey call to a week earlier and then met for drinks. Teresa would later tell a detective she went to Carrie's apartment around 10.30 that night and found him, quote, depressed.

00:22:01 Speaker_02
He didn't mention having been arrested, saying only, quote, everything finally came to a head.

00:22:14 Speaker_02
Ogden Police Detective Shane Miner, one of the investigators on the Ogden City Rapist case, hosted a briefing for detectives of the Salt Lake City Police Department's Missing and Murdered Women Task Force on the morning of Monday, May 11, 1987.

00:22:28 Speaker_02
Shane and his colleagues had kept their information about Carrie Hartman off the books for months.

00:22:33 Speaker_09
That information we were working off of was kept pretty close. There was two or three of us that knew about it.

00:22:40 Speaker_02
Now Shane opened up. He gave the Salt Lake detectives each a sheet with Carey's mugshot and a description of his truck, that not-so-pretty yellow Chevy pickup.

00:22:50 Speaker_02
The sheet said Carey owned a .357 Magnum revolver and was known to walk the streets at night. It said he should be considered unstable and unpredictable.

00:23:01 Speaker_02
Salt Lake police had three unsolved murders of young women they had tied by ballistics to a single gun, a .38. A .357 can fire 38 rounds. But the Salt Lake detectives didn't believe Carrie was their serial killer.

00:23:16 Speaker_09
They just kind of discounted it because it was a little different than the other cases they were actively working.

00:23:22 Speaker_02
Still, Shane asked the Salt Lake detectives to keep their eyes open. He told them the victims in the Ogden City rapist cases feared Kerry might try to find them.

00:23:33 Speaker_18
They didn't want him coming after them, so they all moved. Some of them moved as soon as they came to the police, but a whole lot more of them moved once he was picked up and charged.

00:23:41 Speaker_02
Weber County Attorney Reed Richards filed a series of formal charges against Kerry that week in connection with four of the rape cases.

00:23:49 Speaker_02
Carey remained a suspect in many more, but Reed focused on only those with the strongest evidence, with victims who seemed willing to endure the awful task of testifying.

00:23:59 Speaker_18
You know, there's no two ways to look at it. If you have to go through a preliminary hearing that is open to the public and openly reported on, these aren't kids, and so they can report names and what they say, the whole works.

00:24:11 Speaker_18
And then you've got to wait a few months, many months probably, and then go through the trial and do the same thing. That's why the last numbers I saw were maybe 70% of women don't even want to report.

00:24:23 Speaker_02
The most recent numbers from the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics are from 2020. They say 77% of rape or sexual assault victims don't report the crimes to police.

00:24:34 Speaker_18
Because they don't want to go through that. And those that do report, a lot of them back out midway through the process because they think, gee, this is just not worth it.

00:24:42 Speaker_02
The charges included aggravated sexual assault, a crime more serious than rape under Utah law because it included the use of force or threat of harm. Reid wanted Carey off the streets. Adding two new cases allowed him to secure an arrest warrant.

00:24:59 Speaker_02
Ogden police went and found Carey on Tuesday, May 12, and tossed him back in jail. The additional charges also significantly upped Carey's bail to $105,000. Which in whatever it was, 87 or 88, was a ton of money.

00:25:11 Speaker_18
It still is.

00:25:16 Speaker_02
Reid feared if Kerry managed to get out again ahead of trial, it might spook the women he had attacked into recanting. At the time, Utah didn't have a law that would have allowed Kerry to be held without bail. Reid hoped $100,000 would be enough.

00:25:35 Speaker_02
The criminal charges caught the attention of reporters.

00:25:38 Speaker_09
It made a big splash in the news media, and especially in the Ogden Standard.

00:25:43 Speaker_02
The newspaper published a story about Carey's arrest that week.

00:25:46 Speaker_09
We received a lot of different calls referring to him.

00:25:50 Speaker_02
Detective Shane Miner heard from women who described having had contact with Carey in the past.

00:25:56 Speaker_09
And what they would describe would be a date rape type of situation. or where they had gone out with him for a period of time, had stopped, and then he would show back up and take advantage of them.

00:26:09 Speaker_02
Shane talked to Jan, the divorcee who had loaned Cary money for his truck back in the fall of 84. I described Jan's brief relationship with Cary in Episode 1.

00:26:18 Speaker_02
She told Shane the story of how Cary had dragged her into a closet on the Weber State College campus after she had broken up with him.

00:26:25 Speaker_09
Just how he treated them was horrible.

00:26:29 Speaker_02
Shane's notes say Jan told him she had not reported being raped back then because she had feared no one would believe her.

00:26:37 Speaker_09
They had gone out with him and he could take advantage of them and didn't worry about any repercussions because they had been dating and so who's gonna believe them and at the same time he's basically abusing them.

00:26:49 Speaker_02
Some of the women described this kind of activity taking place at Carey's apartment. Word of that got back to Roy Police Detective Jack Bell, the lead investigator on the Cherie Warren case.

00:27:00 Speaker_11
I wouldn't call it a shock. I might have been a little surprised, but I wouldn't call it a shock. It was enough to make us go back and talk to the ladies again.

00:27:11 Speaker_02
By ladies, he means two women who had lived above Cary at the time of Sheree Warren's disappearance.

00:27:18 Speaker_11
And we got a completely different story from them.

00:27:22 Speaker_02
Kerry had rented the basement of a house on Ogden's 7th Street from May of 84 through November of 86. The house belonged to a woman who had taught at Ogden High School named Kay Lynn.

00:27:33 Speaker_02
She lived upstairs along with another renter, a fellow teacher named Mary. Two school teachers. Jack told me he had interviewed Kay Lynn and Mary once before, over the phone, prior to Kerry's arrest.

00:27:46 Speaker_02
They couldn't tell us too much the first time I talked. But he talked to them again the day after Carrie's return to jail.

00:27:53 Speaker_11
The second time they claimed that the night Sheree disappeared, she was actually there. And they recall hearing a loud thump. And then all went quiet.

00:28:10 Speaker_02
Jack had Kaylynn and Mary each provide typewritten statements about what they remembered. I have copies of those, and I've also spoken with both women. Their statements from 87 are more detailed than their memories now.

00:28:23 Speaker_02
So for this podcast, we're going to focus on what they wrote. We'll start with Kaylynn, her exact words read by a voice actor.

00:28:32 Speaker_16
Carrie Hartman came to interview for my rental apartment in the basement of my house and was, in the most part, an excellent renter.

00:28:39 Speaker_02
Here's Mary, again through a voice actor.

00:28:42 Speaker_17
He did not pay his rent on time, which caused a problem with relations with the landlord.

00:28:47 Speaker_16
The one thing I hate about my house is how easy it is to hear the back door close, or people going up and down the stairs. It inevitably would wake us.

00:28:57 Speaker_17
Carrie always had a girlfriend or two around. You could hear them downstairs, laughing or watching TV.

00:29:03 Speaker_16
The really objectionable part of Carey was his constant sexual activity. Obnoxious to me because he'd invariably come home drunk and loud with a girlfriend and entertain them for a few hours sometimes or overnight or whatever.

00:29:19 Speaker_17
The noise was embarrassingly noticeable. So loud were the screams that once I thought they came from a lady next door or something.

00:29:27 Speaker_16
Occasionally, one close girlfriend would come unannounced and catch him with another and there would be a fight, if he'd answered the door.

00:29:36 Speaker_17
At one time, he had two studies. One girl was a blonde. I never talked to her, but she stayed overnight a few times. The other girl was Sheree Warren.

00:29:47 Speaker_16
She was a bit younger than the rest, but seemed very level-headed, higher class than he usually brought here. Very embarrassed if I ever met her in the driveway as she was leaving.

00:29:58 Speaker_17
The first time I met her was in the summer of 1985. It was a weekend morning. I had slept in and a knock came to the front door. She asked me if Kerry was home and I said, if he doesn't answer, he's not.

00:30:12 Speaker_16
Usually she parked by the telephone pole in front of the house. So we got used to her car and who she was.

00:30:20 Speaker_17
The last time I saw Cherie Warren was an October night in 1985. Cherie was home that evening.

00:30:27 Speaker_16
Unusual. I don't remember anything in particular that night until I had gone to bed at my usual 10.30 or so.

00:30:35 Speaker_17
A car pulled up. I sat up and pulled the curtain open to see who it was. I saw Cherie's car. It was parked out in front of the house. She knocked and knocked again. He got up and walked upstairs. She was crying when she said she needed to talk to him.

00:30:52 Speaker_17
As they went downstairs, an argument ensued. This was a king-sized one. I could hear them through a vent in the hallways, as clear as if it were in the next room.

00:31:02 Speaker_17
I got off the couch and said to Kay Lynn that she had caught him with another woman and to come hear them.

00:31:08 Speaker_16
I could hear them just fine from bed. I'd never heard Sheree upset before. But she was saying things like, how could you be with someone else? You lied to me.

00:31:18 Speaker_17
She said people at work had told her that they had seen him with another woman. She asked Carey how he could do that after all she had done for him with his money problems and all. Carey was really yelling back at her.

00:31:29 Speaker_17
He said, hey, babe, I don't owe you anything. I could hear her crying and I left the vent and said to Kaylin, did you hear that? He's putting it all back on her.

00:31:40 Speaker_17
I went back to the vent and that's when I heard what I thought was him hitting the wall really hard with his fist. Then he said, s***. I don't recall any more sobbing, but the fight stopped.

00:31:52 Speaker_16
I went back to the couch and just sat there. I have no recollection of her leaving that night. I don't remember hearing anyone go up the stairs.

00:32:06 Speaker_17
The next morning, I went to go out to work as usual, but I can't say if the car was there or not.

00:32:10 Speaker_16
Mary and I commented about the fight that next morning, but really forgot about it until the newspaper came out with the news that Cherie was missing two or three days after the fight.

00:32:20 Speaker_17
I saw an article in the paper which stated Cherie was missing, and it mentioned Kerry Hartman had reported her missing. He hadn't mentioned a thing to us.

00:32:29 Speaker_17
I wrote a short note and stuck it on his door, saying how sorry we were that this had happened, and if we could help, let us know.

00:32:35 Speaker_16
He responded as soon as he came home and said that Cherie had plans to drive to Salt Lake and meet her ex-husband to work out something about the settlement or whatever, and that he'd been busy doing something that evening and naturally didn't expect her back.

00:32:49 Speaker_16
Then, when she didn't show up, he had gotten really worried because the ex had been bad to her.

00:32:54 Speaker_17
He told us at that time that he was sure it was her ex-husband. He took the following days off for aiding the police in the search for Cherie, he told me.

00:33:03 Speaker_16
He asked us to take some flyers and put them up at work. Very soon thereafter, he said something about deer or elk hunting and that he and his friends were going to go.

00:33:13 Speaker_16
Lewis, for KSL Northern Area News, was his most common buddy that he did things with that we saw.

00:33:20 Speaker_17
He looked really terrible the following week. He was quiet and withdrawn. He didn't have any more girlfriends after Cherie.

00:33:28 Speaker_16
I had a very suspicious feeling about Carrie when we heard Cherie had disappeared. In fact, Mary and I had talked about not being surprised if they found he had done it.

00:33:37 Speaker_17
He got a job at the Galleon, and so he took very late hours. But some nights he would come in at 2, 3, or 4 a.m. and get up and go to work at 6.30. I wondered how he did it. He decided to move out in the fall of 1986. He was going to move into a condo.

00:33:54 Speaker_17
We figured he met a rich girlfriend and was moving in with her because he couldn't make a $190 payment here.

00:34:00 Speaker_16
We were doing the yard and house fall cleaning and came upon a box in my storage room that Carrie had left. It was a full box of the flyers that Carrie had printed with Cherie's picture and the reward that was offered for information.

00:34:12 Speaker_16
None were missing. The box was packed tight.

00:34:15 Speaker_17
There were hundreds of them. We talked about if we should call the police, but he had been so convincing about how he felt about losing her.

00:34:23 Speaker_16
He had told us that he'd spent hours and hours posting these all over the area. That box had never been opened.

00:34:45 Speaker_02
Two women, who had lived above Cary Hartman in October of 85, had told Detective Jack Bell they had heard a loud argument between Cary and Cherie Warren, followed by a thump. But were they sure it had happened the same night Cherie disappeared?

00:35:02 Speaker_02
Jack told me, yes.

00:35:03 Speaker_11
I said, Cherie was there that night.

00:35:07 Speaker_02
But his notes from the time are a bit more nuanced. They say one of the women, Mary, remembered this fight between Carrie and Cherie taking place two days before the first newspaper report on Cherie's disappearance.

00:35:22 Speaker_02
The other woman, Kay Lynn, said two or three days. And that little bit of ambiguity was a problem.

00:35:31 Speaker_11
I think if those girls that he rented the house from would have come forward originally with that story, we might have got to the bottom of it quicker.

00:35:45 Speaker_02
So why didn't they? Well, there are two potential answers. The first, and most obvious, they didn't feel safe speaking up until... Cary Hartman had been arrested as a rapist. This makes perfect sense.

00:36:01 Speaker_02
The second possible reason boiled down to an issue of ego. Mary would years later tell an investigator she had reported the fight between Carey and Shuri to a Roy police officer, but not Jack Bell, soon after it had happened. That surprises me.

00:36:18 Speaker_02
I know the name of the officer. Jack told me he and that officer never got along. And it's possible this kept Mary's tip from making it to Jack in the first few days after Shuri Warren disappeared.

00:36:31 Speaker_02
If not for that conflict of ego, the entire direction of Jack's investigation might have changed.

00:36:39 Speaker_11
Especially if it would have come early.

00:36:41 Speaker_02
Damn. As it was, the information arrived a year and a half late, after Cary had lawyered up and was no longer available to Jack for questioning.

00:36:51 Speaker_11
Had no more contact with him.

00:36:53 Speaker_02
On the same day Jack had talked to Cary's former neighbors, he had also heard from one of Cary's old friends.

00:37:01 Speaker_21
How about Fred Johns?

00:37:05 Speaker_11
Fred Johns. Yeah, Fred was a little flaky.

00:37:10 Speaker_02
I've mentioned Fred before, and he knew Carrie. Fred's the guy Carrie had briefly lived with during the mid-70s, between his two marriages.

00:37:19 Speaker_02
But as mentioned in episode one, Fred had kicked Carrie out of his house, after Carrie put the moves on Fred's wife.

00:37:29 Speaker_02
Fred was leasing hunting rights on a chunk of mountain property between Causey and Lost Creek Reservoirs when Cherie Warren disappeared a decade later. I previously made a metaphor to help you picture the geography around this area.

00:37:42 Speaker_02
It looks like a percent sign, two small circles separated by a diagonal slash. Causey's the circle in the upper left, Lost Creek's the circle in the lower right, and the mountain between them is the diagonal slash.

00:37:57 Speaker_02
There's a dirt road that runs along that mountain, linking the two reservoirs, following the slash. The property where Fred Johns held hunting rights sat on that dirt road, at the top of the mountain.

00:38:10 Speaker_02
He had a cabin up there, near a canyon called Gildersleeve.

00:38:16 Speaker_11
Fred's camp was at the head of Gilders, but off a little ways, wasn't down right on the ridge.

00:38:23 Speaker_02
Fred died in 2019, so I wasn't able to interview him. But he did talk to Jack Bell after learning of Carrie's arrest.

00:38:30 Speaker_11
Let's put it this way. Fred was fairly cooperative.

00:38:34 Speaker_02
Jack's memory of this conversation was a bit faded, so I'm going to draw from notes he made at the time.

00:38:40 Speaker_11
It's a good thing I made some notes. They're better than I thought I made.

00:38:46 Speaker_02
They say Fred described having seen Carrie on the boundary of Fred's leased property the Sunday after Cherie disappeared.

00:38:55 Speaker_02
Fred said he had been driving that dirt road on the mountain between Causey and Lost Creek when he had seen Kerry's truck, that ugly yellow Chevy.

00:39:05 Speaker_11
He knew Kerry, so he knew he was when he seen him up there.

00:39:11 Speaker_02
It was the opening weekend of Utah's elk hunt and Fred was patrolling for trespassers. He had found Cary and another man, Fred thought it was Cary's younger brother Jack Hartman, loading a pair of three-wheelers into the back of Cary's pickup.

00:39:25 Speaker_02
Fred told Detective Jack Bell he had asked Cary what he was up to. Cary had supposedly told Fred he was breaking camp after hunting for elk down toward Kazi. This hadn't made much sense to Fred for two reasons.

00:39:38 Speaker_02
First, he had never known Kerry to hunt elk, only deer and birds. Second, Fred had driven past that same spot the night prior and hadn't seen Kerry's truck there.

00:39:50 Speaker_02
Fred also had not seen any rifles during this encounter with Kerry, raising questions about what he'd actually been doing on the mountain.

00:40:01 Speaker_02
Ogden Police Detective Shane Miner went back to Carey's apartment a couple of days after Carey's return to jail. The courts had given him another search warrant.

00:40:10 Speaker_09
We felt like we had enough to go back in.

00:40:13 Speaker_02
Shane wrote the affidavit but didn't remember the details when we sat down to talk. I read the warrant back to him nearly 35 years after he had first written it. So that's essentially the grounds for that second warrant. Yes.

00:40:27 Speaker_02
And you're like, that's all it?

00:40:29 Speaker_09
Yeah, that brings back a little bit of the memory. I haven't seen any of that stuff in a while since then, but that sounds correct.

00:40:36 Speaker_02
It's safe to say, essentially, you kind of have puzzle pieces that have been scattered around the table for a long time, and now they're starting to click together a little bit. Yes.

00:40:44 Speaker_02
Shane was looking for a few things he had seen in Carey's apartment while serving the first search warrant a week earlier, including Carey's .357 Magnum revolver.

00:40:52 Speaker_09
Collected a few items, but nothing earth shattering. I remember there was a gun, a holster.

00:40:59 Speaker_02
Roy City Police Detective Jack Bell once again joined the Ogden cops in Carey's apartment. He found a photo album full of pictures of Carey and his friends, a group some referred to as the Supper Club.

00:41:11 Speaker_06
So what was the Supper Club?

00:41:14 Speaker_11
It's where he'd have several of his friends over for, quote, dinner and wine and a couple girls, one or two girls. And it was what we called in the old days bunch punch, gang bang, whatever you want to call it.

00:41:35 Speaker_11
But there was a lot of people, I shouldn't say a lot, but a couple handfuls of guys involved.

00:41:45 Speaker_02
As I understand it from talking not only to Jack, but also some of the people who had attended these get-togethers, the supper club was just a group of friends who gathered every once in a while for dinner and drinks.

00:41:56 Speaker_02
The members each hosted on a rotating basis. This probably started sometime in 86, after Carrie Hartman moved out of the basement apartment on 7th Street. The gatherings fell apart after Carrie's arrest.

00:42:09 Speaker_02
Some of the people I've talked to told me they didn't recall anything sexual going on at those dinners. So Jack may not be accurate in describing the supper club as a purely sexual thing.

00:42:20 Speaker_02
But Jack had reason to believe, from what he saw in Carrie's apartment, at least some of Carrie's friends had taken part in sexual encounters together.

00:42:28 Speaker_02
They potentially included business owners, and even a few men and women with close ties to the law enforcement community.

00:42:36 Speaker_11
One of them's wife did work for Ogden City, too.

00:42:40 Speaker_02
I know some of the names, but I don't know the extent to which they were involved. I did run them by Jack. You've definitely done your homework, which is good. standing there in Carey's apartment.

00:42:54 Speaker_02
It started to dawn on Jack why so many of Carey's friends had remained silent when Sheree Warren had disappeared.

00:43:01 Speaker_11
It's because these friends of his, most all of them married, community ties, businesses, policemen, all that kind of stuff. They've got too much to lose if it all comes out what their connection is.

00:43:17 Speaker_02
Jack raided Carey's file cabinet. He found a folder of newspaper clippings about Shuri's disappearance, along with other papers in Carey's handwriting.

00:43:25 Speaker_02
Jack came across the paper Mary, one of the two ladies who had lived above Carey at his old place, had described leaving on his door. It read,

00:43:33 Speaker_17
Carrie, Kaylin and I would like to tell you how sorry we are that your friend is missing. We all value friends so much, and we feel so sorry that this is happening to you, our friend. If you need anything, please let us know.

00:43:48 Speaker_17
Good luck, and let's hope for the best.

00:43:51 Speaker_02
This boosted Mary's credibility, confirming at least part of what she had told Jack a day earlier.

00:43:55 Speaker_11
Now, why didn't they tell us that the first time? I don't know.

00:44:01 Speaker_02
Again, it's likely Mary hadn't felt safe coming forward until after Carey was in custody. Jack thumbed through other papers. He saw pages and pages of Carey's notes about his sessions with a palm reader.

00:44:17 Speaker_02
Carey had dated one set October 9th, 1985, exactly one week after Cherie's disappearance.

00:44:24 Speaker_20
GAMBLE WITH BLUE EYED GIRL. BIG CHANGE. TWO WOMEN. LOVE AFFAIR.

00:44:30 Speaker_02
The most interesting bits of this, to me, were a few pages that appeared to be a question and answer exchange between Carrie and the unnamed fortune teller.

00:44:40 Speaker_20
Will we find her soon? Not soon. Will we find her with her car? Yes. Is she hurt? Not hurt. She's in good health. Why is this interesting to me?

00:44:54 Speaker_02
Carey might have asked these questions in earnest, hoping his fortune teller would help him figure out what had happened to Cherie. If so, these notes could be evidence of his innocence.

00:45:06 Speaker_02
Or Carey could have just been acting the part of the heartbroken boyfriend in front of the fortune teller in an effort to bolster his alibi. Did Chuck do it?

00:45:14 Speaker_20
Yes. Will I get her back alive? Yes. Yes.

00:45:22 Speaker_02
Shane worked through the apartment's bedrooms. He was after Carey's clothes to see if any outfits matched those described by the rape victims, or if Carey's boots fit the prints seen outside any of those women's houses.

00:45:33 Speaker_02
He took three red flannel shirts, four pair of shoes, a pair of black denim pants, and a downfield jacket.

00:45:41 Speaker_09
Like I said, nothing really stood out, but that kind of stuff was taken and seized out of his apartment.

00:45:47 Speaker_02
One garment did stand out. It hung in the closet of the apartment's second bedroom, the room Carrie's two sons slept in when over for visitation on the weekends. It was a women's jacket, gray and made of suede leather.

00:46:03 Speaker_02
Jack Bell wondered, could it belong to Cherie?

00:46:06 Speaker_11
When we did the search warrant, we found her coat in his closet.

00:46:11 Speaker_02
Finding a person's outerwear in their romantic partner's closet is not smoking gun evidence of a murder. But it did raise the question of how did the jacket get there?

00:46:21 Speaker_11
Because Cherie had never been in that apartment.

00:46:25 Speaker_02
Remember, Carrie had moved about a year after Cherie disappeared. If she had left this gray suede jacket at his place on 7th Street, why wouldn't Carrie have given it to her family after she disappeared?

00:46:37 Speaker_02
Why would he have instead packed it up and taken it to his new apartment, then tucked it in the closet where Detective Shane Miner found it while serving the search warrant?

00:46:47 Speaker_09
If it's the jacket that she was wearing the day she went to work and last seen, then that tells us that that jacket ended up in Hartman's apartment.

00:46:58 Speaker_02
Okay, so what?

00:46:59 Speaker_02
Well, if Sheree had been wearing that gray jacket as she left for work from her parents' house on the morning of her disappearance, its presence in Carey's apartment would suggest she had met up with Carey after leaving the credit union office.

00:47:14 Speaker_02
It would mean Carey lied about not having seen Sheree that night. I told you last episode, this case might just boil down to a tale of two coats, Carey's black parka or Sheree's gray suede jacket.

00:47:31 Speaker_02
Carey had gone out of his way to tell police and his private investigator Sheree had been wearing his black parka that morning, not this small women's suede jacket Detective Shane Miner found in Carey's closet.

00:47:45 Speaker_09
So could that jacket have been left at a different time, or was it the jacket she was wearing that morning?

00:47:50 Speaker_02
We'll come back to this question in a later episode. The gray suede jacket wasn't evidence in the rape case. It fell outside the scope of the warrant, so the detectives couldn't just take it.

00:48:02 Speaker_02
Ogden Police Detective Chris Zimmerman would return to get it later, with another warrant. Meantime, Detective Jack Bell went to talk to someone whose name he had seen in Carey's papers. Someone he knew. Brent Morgan.

00:48:16 Speaker_11
He's my taxidermist. I got a big outking on the law that he did for me. But at the time, I didn't know Brent. Jerry Harton.

00:48:26 Speaker_02
You've heard from Brent Morgan already in this podcast.

00:48:29 Speaker_05
He had two dispositions, Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde.

00:48:33 Speaker_02
Brent's the taxidermist who had had his wedding on the mountain behind Kazi Reservoir a year before Sheree Warren disappeared.

00:48:39 Speaker_02
Remember, Kerry had borrowed money from his girlfriend at the time to buy his ugly yellow truck, saying he needed the pickup to get to Brent's wedding.

00:48:47 Speaker_05
Back then, there wasn't a lot of people up there.

00:48:50 Speaker_02
At the end of the 70s, a piece of the mountain directly south of Qazi Reservoir opened up for development. Brent had been one of the first to buy a lot in the new cabin subdivision called Qazi Estates.

00:49:01 Speaker_05
What they did when Qazi Estates was developed, if you wanted to hunt, you had to buy a permit. So being lot 89, I was able to secure five permits a year.

00:49:14 Speaker_02
Brent told me Kerry had come to him in September of 85, before the start of the elk hunt, with a request. He wanted to borrow Brent's key to the gate at Kazi Estates.

00:49:24 Speaker_05
He wouldn't have been hunting because he couldn't have got a permit without me giving it to him. I would have had to secure it for him and that did not happen.

00:49:34 Speaker_02
But Brent had agreed to loan Kerry his key.

00:49:37 Speaker_05
Which I didn't have a problem with at that time because, well, there were other places I could go scouting that I didn't need to be there.

00:49:45 Speaker_02
Brent had thought Kerry would use the key for a day, then return it. That hadn't happened. By early October, Brent and his hunting party were ready to get on the mountain. But he couldn't get his key back from Kerry.

00:49:58 Speaker_05
He either doesn't answer or has an excuse. You know, I had to get pretty rude with him because I said, look, you're infringing on what I do. You only have the one key. That's correct.

00:50:11 Speaker_21
And so, I mean, you're basically locked out of your own cabin.

00:50:13 Speaker_05
That's correct.

00:50:14 Speaker_21
Yeah.

00:50:14 Speaker_02
That would make, I would be a little frustrated. Do you remember when you got back?

00:50:21 Speaker_05
I don't. I mean, I can't tell you exactly when. All I know is it wasn't when I wanted it.

00:50:31 Speaker_02
It wasn't until Brent got to chatting with a neighbor a year or so later that he started to wonder what Carrie's purpose for holding on to the key might have been.

00:50:40 Speaker_05
And then pretty soon, Jack Bell knocks on my door, and I've known Jack almost as long as I've known Carrie. And he says, Brent, I don't want you talking to anybody else. I'm on this investigation.

00:50:53 Speaker_05
So any information from this point forward, I would like you to give it to me.

00:50:59 Speaker_21
What went through your mind when he said that?

00:51:01 Speaker_05
I'm going, oh, poop, with a little more stringency. But here again, the questions he asked me and the things that, you know, it started making sense.

00:51:13 Speaker_02
Jack Bell had also owned a lot in Qazi Estates.

00:51:16 Speaker_02
He told me Brent's story of loaning Kerry a key explained how Kerry might have gained access to the spot where the elk hunting guide Fred Johns had described encountering him the Sunday after Cherie disappeared.

00:51:28 Speaker_11
Yeah. And he didn't give them the key to go out and go hunting, which we weren't supposed to do. So I found that a little strange.

00:51:43 Speaker_02
Jack Bell publicly named Carrie Hartman as a suspect in the disappearance of Sheree Warren in a story published in the Ogden Standard Examiner the afternoon of Wednesday, May 14th, 1987.

00:51:55 Speaker_02
Sheree's estranged husband, Chuck Warren, hadn't been ruled out, but a picture had started coming into focus surrounding Carrie's possible role in Sheree's suspected murder.

00:52:07 Speaker_11
There's theories that they're just You know, they're just theories.

00:52:12 Speaker_02
Kerry's parents had retained a defense attorney for him, who told the newspaper he wouldn't be surprised if prosecutors also charged Kerry with murder. But Prosecutor Reed Richards wasn't prepared to go that far.

00:52:25 Speaker_18
When you have a case where there's no body, the argument that the other side's always gonna make, the defense is always gonna make is you don't know that she's dead.

00:52:33 Speaker_18
Maybe she found a boyfriend that she decided she wanted to start a new life and took off and that's why her car was found in Vegas. They took it there and jumped on a plane and went to who knows where.

00:52:46 Speaker_02
Kerry's parents managed to once again get him out of jail on Saturday, May 16th, by putting up their own properties collateral.

00:52:53 Speaker_02
That same day, Jack Bell and his partner, along with Ogden Police Detectives Shane Miner and John Stubbs, took a drive through Kazia Estates. They headed up top on a twisting dirt road, passing through thick stands of aspen and pine.

00:53:08 Speaker_09
It's just really remote. There's a few dirt roads. But other than the dirt roads, you would need a horse to get into some of those areas. Or back then, a lot of people were starting to get these three-wheelers.

00:53:19 Speaker_09
If you had one of those, you could access some of it, or a horse. Cary didn't have a horse.

00:53:25 Speaker_02
But he did own a pair of three-wheelers. So did his friend, and fellow former Reserve Officer Dave Moore.

00:53:32 Speaker_10
Did you ever have three wheelers? I did, I had two.

00:53:36 Speaker_02
Jack Bell and Chris Zimmerman went to talk to Dave at his sewing machine repair shop. Dave knew Zimmerman, having rode with him while in the reserves. Did you know Jack Bell, by chance? I did.

00:53:47 Speaker_10
How did you know Jack? Well, I had a place up at Cosby Estates, and he did also. So he was an avid hunter, and so I'd see him up there quite a bit.

00:53:58 Speaker_02
Dave told the detectives he had received a phone call the day after Carey's first arrest from Carey's girlfriend, Shauna. That's when he had learned Carey was in jail. David called the jail and asked to speak with Carey.

00:54:09 Speaker_02
He had come on the line and reportedly said he had done some things he felt ashamed of and would probably lose every friend he had.

00:54:17 Speaker_02
He had asked Dave to give Zimmerman and Ogden Police Captain Marlon Balls a big hug on his behalf, saying he knew they were just trying to help.

00:54:25 Speaker_10
Gary was supposed to go bear hunting with Marlon Balls, Chris Zimmerman, Don Moore, and I think there was about two or three other Ogden City police officers that were going to go.

00:54:36 Speaker_10
And after he was arrested, he told me to tell Marlon and Chris that he was sorry he needed help, and he messed up.

00:54:45 Speaker_02
Jack asked Dave what he remembered about the night Shuri disappeared. What went through your mind when you found out Kerry was a suspect in that investigation?

00:54:55 Speaker_10
I was completely shocked. I didn't even believe it. Every time that I'd seen him with her, they got along really good. So it was a shock.

00:55:10 Speaker_02
Dave said Cary had stopped into the sewing machine repair shop around 5.30 that evening. Dave had closed up, then headed over to the bar, Sebastian's, with Cary for a couple drinks at 6.

00:55:21 Speaker_02
Dave couldn't provide Cary an alibi for any time after about 9, when he had left the bar and headed home. He believed Cary had left at that same time, on his way to meet up with Cherie.

00:55:33 Speaker_02
In the last episode, you heard Cary's statement to the private investigator, which included a different timeline. Kerry had claimed he and Dave had met at the bar starting at 9. I showed Kerry's statement to Dave.

00:55:46 Speaker_10
I asked him what he made of the discrepancy. Man after my own heart. Yeah. No, definitely not.

00:56:12 Speaker_02
In other words, Cary Hartman had no alibi for the time his former neighbors said they had heard a fight between Cary and Cherie, a thump, then all going quiet. Kerry Hartman returned to court on Wednesday, May 20th.

00:56:31 Speaker_02
Weber County Attorney Reed Richards argued the bond put up by Kerry's parents wasn't enough because their property wasn't worth what they had claimed. The judge kicked the can, delaying his decision for a week. Kerry would remain free until then.

00:56:47 Speaker_20
Kerry wrote in his journal that day, The judge put the hearing off till the 27th. Reporters were there, video cameras, the works. Awful.

00:56:59 Speaker_02
Jack Bell, meanwhile, was looking for Carrie's younger brother, Jack Hartman. He had arranged to interview Jack, hoping to ask him whether he had been on the mountain behind Kazi with Carrie the Sunday after Cherie disappeared.

00:57:11 Speaker_02
But the interview didn't happen.

00:57:13 Speaker_11
No. Don't think I ever got to talk to Jack.

00:57:17 Speaker_02
Jack Bell wrote in his notes, Jack Hartman's wife had called him to say they wouldn't talk on the advice of Carrie's defense attorney. We're going to hear Jack Hartman's side of this story in a future episode.

00:57:28 Speaker_02
At the same time, Ogden police were talking to the Weber County Sheriff's Office about the anonymous caller who had reported finding a body near Qazi Reservoir.

00:57:38 Speaker_02
Ogden detectives were operating on the theory Cary Hartman had used his borrowed key for the gate at Causey Estates to drive Cherie up that mountain and dump her lifeless body.

00:57:49 Speaker_02
They suspected the anonymous caller might have stumbled across Cherie almost a year and a half later. But prosecutor Reed Richards couldn't charge Cary with murder based on speculation.

00:58:02 Speaker_18
We could have potentially filed charges then, but it was probably 50-50 as to whether we'd even get a bind over with the evidence we had. It was maybe enough for probable cause, but certainly not enough for proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:58:17 Speaker_02
He urged the detectives to find the body reported by the anonymous caller.

00:58:22 Speaker_18
The problem is we didn't have details on who it was that called, so there was no way to go back and find the body that they'd found, which is a little bit odd, too.

00:58:31 Speaker_02
The sheriff's office issued a press release, inviting reporters from the newspapers, TV and radio stations to come get a copy of the tape. The investigators hoped doing so would nudge the caller into phoning in again.

00:58:47 Speaker_02
KSL 5 TV reporter Larry Lewis went to Roy City Police Headquarters the next day.

00:58:52 Speaker_11
Yeah, well, he came up to interview me.

00:58:55 Speaker_02
This again is former Roy Police Detective Jack Bell, the lead investigator on the Sheree Warren case.

00:59:01 Speaker_11
We had talked and he came up to interview me.

00:59:05 Speaker_02
Larry remembers this differently. I'll get to his side of the story in a moment. For now, just know it had been a week since Jack had publicly named Carrie Hartman a suspect in the Cherie Warren case, but Larry hadn't yet reported on that development.

00:59:21 Speaker_02
So it's plausible Larry could have gone to meet Jack on the basis of doing a story about his friend Carrie that just released anonymous call tape or both. But Jack had other ideas.

00:59:33 Speaker_02
He and Ogden City Police Detective John Stubbs greeted Larry when he arrived.

00:59:38 Speaker_11
Larry's name was one of the names of the people involved in this supper club. And I really wanted to talk to him.

00:59:49 Speaker_02
The Supper Club was that group of Cary Hartman's friends who got together at one another's homes for dinner and wine. Jack Bell believed some Supper Club members engaged in sexual activity together.

01:00:00 Speaker_02
It's not clear to me today how widespread that was or how many in the group knew about it. Jack needed to determine the nature of all Cary's friendships. He intended to ask Larry some very direct questions.

01:00:14 Speaker_11
I told him that he ought to have his helper step out. And he said, well, why? And I, as I recall, I said, because I've got to read you your rights, Larry, and talk to you about Cary Hartman.

01:00:32 Speaker_02
Jack's notes say Larry described having taken Cary's three-wheelers into the foothills east of Ogden on the Saturday after Cherie disappeared, one day before Fred Johns claimed to have seen Cary and another man with a pair of three-wheelers on the mountain behind Kazi.

01:00:49 Speaker_11
Yeah, Larry brought that up. Damn, I'm glad I took some notes.

01:00:53 Speaker_02
The notes say Larry claimed Carey had told him they didn't need to look for Cherie near Chuck Warren's house because police had already searched there. Jack wrote that wasn't true and Carey had known it.

01:01:05 Speaker_11
Yeah, that's accurate. I'm glad I wrote it down.

01:01:10 Speaker_02
I felt a sense of shock reading those notes for the first time because I've met Larry Lewis. I called Larry in January of 2021 while working on Season 2 of this podcast.

01:01:23 Speaker_02
The story of the anonymous caller had also come up in connection with the disappearance of Joyce Yost. I knew Larry had covered the Joyce Yost case, even using a clip of the anonymous call in this 1993 story about the search for Joyce's remains.

01:01:37 Speaker_07
A mystery man called dispatchers six years ago saying he found a woman's body while hiking in the woods. This is the man's voice.

01:01:48 Speaker_02
But I'd had no idea at the time of Larry's friendship with Carrie Hartman. On the phone, Larry had told me he didn't remember the Joyce Yost case.

01:01:59 Speaker_02
I explained the circumstances of the anonymous call and mentioned how he had played the tape in another story, dating back to December of 88.

01:02:06 Speaker_08
Investigators believe the body could be that of either Cherie Warren or Joyce Yost, two Weber County women who mysteriously disappeared in 1985 and are presumed murdered.

01:02:16 Speaker_02
I even emailed Larry videos of these stories to jog his memory. He replied saying he didn't remember the anonymous caller story at all.

01:02:25 Speaker_02
So imagine my surprise when Detective Jack Bell told me he had turned the tables on Larry back in 87, when the anonymous call tape first went public.

01:02:35 Speaker_11
He didn't do a story that day and he didn't want to do a story. But I can't imagine how shocked he was.

01:02:44 Speaker_02
Larry Lewis didn't ever air a story about Carrie Hartman being named a suspect in Shuri Warren's disappearance, which meant KSL, the company I now work for, failed to bring that story to the public.

01:02:58 Speaker_02
And Larry didn't report on the anonymous call tape until more than a year and a half after it first went public. I wanted to know why, so I went and knocked on Larry's door.

01:03:12 Speaker_07
Hi, is Larry around? Yeah, Larry?

01:03:15 Speaker_02
I carried a microphone, backed up by a TV camera. Uh-oh.

01:03:18 Speaker_21
Uh-oh. Now what do we do? Well, um, so I don't even know who I am. I'm Dave Colley.

01:03:24 Speaker_02
Yeah. We talked about it on the phone a year ago. Sure, yeah. Since that time, I've been working on Cherie Warren and Terry Hartman. Okay. So I need to have a conversation with you about Terry Hartman.

01:03:37 Speaker_06
Oh, Cherie Hartman. Yeah. That name sounds familiar. It's been a long time.

01:03:45 Speaker_02
I told Larry I knew he and Kerry were friends. Larry instead used the word acquaintances.

01:03:51 Speaker_06
So, is this being recorded?

01:03:53 Speaker_02
It is.

01:03:55 Speaker_06
OK, I need to know what you're after. I mean, what do you, what's the nature of what you're asking?

01:04:01 Speaker_02
So basically, I related to Larry the story Jack Bell had told me about their interview in May of 87. Larry's recollection was quite different from Jack's.

01:04:10 Speaker_02
He said he hadn't been working on a story that day and didn't recall being read his Miranda rights.

01:04:16 Speaker_06
As I recall, I called Detective Bell and said, I know, Kerry, I need Can I talk to you? Or at least, do you want to talk to me about it?

01:04:27 Speaker_02
I should note, before confronting Larry, I did talk to the videographer he most often worked with during the 80s. The videographer told me he didn't remember being there for this, but it's something he definitely would have remembered.

01:04:40 Speaker_02
I asked Larry about what I had read in Jack's notes, that Larry had gone on a three-wheeler ride with Carrie the Saturday after Cherie Warren disappeared.

01:04:47 Speaker_06
I might have. I mean, I did do that. He had two three wheelers and he came by where I lived and we took a ride.

01:04:58 Speaker_02
Jack Bell's notes say Larry had explained that three wheeler ride was for the purpose of looking for Cherie's body, even though police at that time had no reason to believe she was dead. But Larry omitted that detail in his conversation with me.

01:05:10 Speaker_21
And then the get together group, the supper club group, you guys didn't talk about that?

01:05:15 Speaker_06
No, I don't know. We didn't have a I don't call it as a supper club. There were a few people that played poker together, and that was about it. Played poker a couple times, and that was it. Yeah, we... Yeah.

01:05:31 Speaker_21
Okay. I have Jack Bell on record telling me that there was a group of Kerry's friends that he believed you were a part of that got together socially and involved some other activities with some young women.

01:05:46 Speaker_06
Right. No, that wasn't me.

01:05:48 Speaker_21
Okay.

01:05:48 Speaker_06
Poker was it. I knew of what you're talking about, that those other guys did some things. I mean, they had supper and fraternized, but it was without me.

01:06:02 Speaker_02
Okay. Fraternized. So was Larry Lewis just an acquaintance who played poker with Cary Hartman a few times? Or, as Jack Bell said, was he a good friend of Cary's?

01:06:13 Speaker_11
He didn't deny being part of the supper club. He said, I hope this number comes out.

01:06:20 Speaker_02
Jack and Larry's accounts don't line up. I'm not sure which is more accurate. You'll have to decide for yourself which you find more credible.

01:06:29 Speaker_02
For me, learning a KSL TV reporter had a friendship with Carey and was in a position to potentially steer news coverage of the Cherie Warren case left me with some serious questions. Like, did Larry ever disclose his friendship with Carey to KSL?

01:06:44 Speaker_02
Or did he tell anyone he'd been questioned by police in connection with a story he had covered? Jack Bell didn't have the answers. So last time I seen Larry Lewis, but we'll hear what Larry has to say about this in the next episode.

01:07:12 Speaker_02
The anonymous call tape remains one of the most frustrating pieces of the Sheri Warren and Joyce Yost cases. Jack and a team of nearly 20 searchers went up to Kazi several weeks after the call.

01:07:24 Speaker_02
They scoured an unnamed canyon to the east of Kazi Estates, just over the hill from where Carrie's friend, Dave Moore, owned property.

01:07:32 Speaker_11
I personally thought that she was probably dumped in that area. up there on that mountain somewhere.

01:07:43 Speaker_02
But they didn't find Sheree. In the years that followed, the anonymous call recording ended up in the hands of a Weber County Sheriff's detective named Rod Layton.

01:07:54 Speaker_03
We believed it. I mean, he found the body.

01:07:57 Speaker_02
But there is just too much ground to cover.

01:08:00 Speaker_03
I thought, you know, I've got to find the caller.

01:08:04 Speaker_02
The Utah Department of Public Safety produced a TV spot, complete with reenactment of the discovery. It first aired in December of 89, more than four years after Sheri Warren disappeared, two and a half years after the anonymous call.

01:08:18 Speaker_04
The caller stated that he had parked in the Qazi Dam area up Ogden Canyon and had hiked two to three miles back into the mountain.

01:08:27 Speaker_03
Then we started to work. That's when the work started. Because we received hundreds and hundreds of calls. I know who this is. This is their voice.

01:08:36 Speaker_02
Rod spent years running down these leads. None panned out. The caller never revealed himself. The dispatcher who had taken the call, Shelly Mann, told me she's haunted by it.

01:08:49 Speaker_12
How come nobody knows that voice? I don't understand. I think it's so unfair. for somebody to call with information and just leave you hanging. They know there's somebody out there, but they're not willing to help you find that person.

01:09:09 Speaker_02
Maybe there are reasons for that. Jack Bell told me if Carrie Hartman killed Sheree Warren, the anonymous caller might have been someone who had helped hide her body.

01:09:19 Speaker_11
You have to have a reason for calling. You have to have a reason for wanting to be anonymous.

01:09:27 Speaker_02
Former prosecutor Reed Richards implied the same.

01:09:30 Speaker_18
You know, if somebody's willing to make the call, why wouldn't they follow up and help you find the body? That makes you wonder a little bit.

01:09:39 Speaker_02
Especially because Fred Johns, the elk hunting guide who reported seeing Carrie on the mountain behind Causey the Sunday after Cherie disappeared, said another man had been there with Carrie.

01:09:52 Speaker_02
To understand why finding a body in the mountains around Kazi is so difficult, we need to go back, way back, to October of 1943.

01:10:00 Speaker_01
American observers watched the shelling of Nazi positions in Aserno, a town in the path of the American advance in southern Italy.

01:10:09 Speaker_02
Newspaper pages were full of stories about the Red Army routing Nazi forces from Crimea, of American Marines battling their way through the Solomon Islands.

01:10:18 Speaker_01
Wave after wave reaches the beach.

01:10:20 Speaker_02
But the war wasn't the only thing happening in the world. Buried in the local pages of Utah's dailies were a series of stories about a killer snowstorm that had swept across the West during the opening days of the annual deer hunt.

01:10:33 Speaker_02
It had started with frigid rain, which had turned to wet, heavy snow in the high country. Newspaper stories described a search for a hunter named Rudolph Bertinoli, who had disappeared into the storm in the mountains behind Kazi.

01:10:45 Speaker_02
Bert and Oli had gone to join three friends at a hunting camp near the top of Gildersleeve Canyon. At some point, he had fallen ill and decided to head home. Bert and Oli walked away from camp into the forest toward his truck.

01:11:00 Speaker_02
The storm lashed the mountain that night. The rest of the hunting party retreated the next morning, but were surprised to find Bert and Oli's truck, along with his rifle and gear, still parked on the mountain.

01:11:14 Speaker_02
Sheriff's deputies and volunteers spent more than a week on foot and horseback, plunging through snow drifts. They came up empty. Burton only had vanished into the Aspen and Pines, into the cliffs and canyons.

01:11:28 Speaker_02
43 years passed before in April of 86, a cougar hunter following his dogs through the canyon behind Causey entered a small rock alcove. He found human bones sheltered there.

01:11:43 Speaker_21
what appears to be part of the pelvis.

01:11:46 Speaker_02
Rod Layton was there for the recovery of those remains.

01:11:50 Speaker_03
We hiked in. It was about three miles. The body was, you know, of course, just bones. We found driver's license. We found boots.

01:11:58 Speaker_08
The wallet they found with calendars and a Utah driver's license positively identified the remains as Bertinoli's.

01:12:05 Speaker_02
Do you recognize that reporter's voice? That's Carrie Hartman's friend Larry Lewis. He interviewed Bertinoli's widow.

01:12:13 Speaker_12
This is wonderful. This is a relief.

01:12:17 Speaker_02
KSL's helicopter, Chopper 5, flew her up the canyon.

01:12:21 Speaker_03
I was actually at the site and I see the KSL helicopter coming back in. And they literally get 10 feet away from the thing. They were right in the middle of the canyon, and they just hovered right there.

01:12:32 Speaker_03
And she could look right in and said, there it is.

01:12:35 Speaker_08
It's believed Bertinelli hiked two to three days in the snow-covered mountains here. And when he simply couldn't go any further, he looked for the closest shelter.

01:12:43 Speaker_08
This shallow cave that provided him protection ultimately became the lost hunter's grave.

01:12:50 Speaker_02
Bert Noly's name also came up in my conversation with Brent Morgan, the taxidermist who knows that mountain as well as anyone.

01:12:56 Speaker_21
Were you surprised that there could have been a hunter's body there for 40 plus years, unfound?

01:13:02 Speaker_05
Heck yeah, the only reason they found him is it was a lion hunter. If the lion hunter hadn't been following the dogs, they wouldn't have found him then. Burton only had become disoriented. Got messed up and went the wrong direction.

01:13:15 Speaker_05
Ended up down in the bottom of Right Hand Fork.

01:13:18 Speaker_02
The Right Hand Fork is one of the streams that feeds into Kazi Reservoir. It flows through an area Brent and his hunting buddies call the Narrows.

01:13:26 Speaker_05
Anybody that saw our camp, they'd say, who are those idiots? Because if you walked out of our tent 10 to 15 feet, it could drop 1,000 feet straight down. They don't call it the Narrows for nothing. It's because it is cliffs.

01:13:41 Speaker_02
Few people ever travel that morass of cliffs, plunge pools, and thickets.

01:13:47 Speaker_05
The people that are at the Narrows, they're at the top looking down. They're not interested in dropping down where it gets ugly.

01:13:53 Speaker_02
I've hiked the Narrows a couple of times myself.

01:13:56 Speaker_21
My hiking pace has been really slow because I've had to stay up on these cliffs above the water course because of how narrow it is in most places.

01:14:07 Speaker_02
The faint trail disappears as the canyon walls close in, leaving you to walk through, knee to waist deep pools of water. Willow branches scrape at you from all sides.

01:14:19 Speaker_21
My legs and feet are just stinging right now. Even though I had neoprene socks on and wool underneath, it is cold. My feet are numb. I was stumbly. So not a great situation.

01:14:31 Speaker_02
No one's carrying a body back through that canyon.

01:14:35 Speaker_02
The anonymous caller had to have been referencing a spot up higher on the slopes above the Narrows, perhaps closer to the ridge where the elk hunting guide Fred Johns spotted Kerry Hartman four days after Sheree Warren disappeared.

01:14:50 Speaker_02
I asked Brent Morgan about getting up onto the mountain above the Narrows. He told me it's private property and he no longer has access. Do you miss being able to get up into that part of the...

01:15:01 Speaker_05
is a 40 pound robin fat.

01:15:05 Speaker_21
Sometimes I have to ask questions I know the answer to.

01:15:08 Speaker_05
Okay, that's exactly, yeah. When you spend as much time up there as I have with the friends that I cherish and the moments that we had up there, yeah, it's something that's hard to give up. And it's not by choice, it's by access.

01:15:25 Speaker_02
Think back to that metaphor, the percent sign, that resembles the layout of Kazi, Lost Creek, and the mountain between them. The mountain, represented by the slash in the percent sign, is privately owned.

01:15:39 Speaker_02
Cabin owners at Kazi Estates, like Brent Morgan, they're not able to access that land like they did during the 80s. Those who hunt that ground now are mostly led by guides who stick close to the road.

01:15:52 Speaker_02
So if the body reported by the anonymous caller is hidden on the mountain between Causey and Lost Creek, the chance of someone happening across it now seems infinitesimal.

01:16:04 Speaker_05
But here again, you get back to the key. If everything was on the up and up, he would have just given me the key. I mean, that is cut and dried right there. There had to be a reason why.

01:16:25 Speaker_02
on the next episode of Cold. If you have information about the disappearance of Cherie Warren, now is the time to share it. You can reach me by emailing cold at ksl.com or contact the Roy City Police Department at 801-774-1063.

01:17:01 Speaker_02
I also want you to know, if you've experienced abuse or sexual violence, you're not alone. There are trained experts ready to listen and help.

01:17:10 Speaker_02
In the United States, survivors of rape and sexual assault can connect to free resources through the Rape Abuse and Incest National Network at RAINN.org.

01:17:21 Speaker_02
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse in any form, you can reach the National Domestic Violence Hotline at thehotline.org. Cold is a production of KSL Podcasts and Wondery, in association with Workhouse Media.

01:17:41 Speaker_02
Cold is researched, written, and hosted by me, Dave Cauley. Audio production and sound design by Ben Kebrick and Aaron Mason. Mixing and mastering by Ben Kebrick.

01:17:51 Speaker_02
Michael Bonmiller composed our main theme, with additional music this season by Allison Leighton Brown. Additional voices in this episode provided by John Green. Kevin LaRue. Frances Cook, and Kira Hoffelmayer.

01:18:06 Speaker_02
My personal thanks to our editorial team, Amy Donaldson, Andreas Martin, Ryan Meeks, Becky Bruce, Kira Farrimond, Kellyanne Halverson, Josh Tilton, and Felix Bunnell.

01:18:17 Speaker_02
For Amazon Music and Wondery, managing producer Candice Manriquez-Wren, producer Claire Chambers, senior producer Lizzie Bassett, and executive producer Morgan Jones. Special thanks to Kale Bittner and Alison Vermeulen.

01:18:33 Speaker_02
with Workhouse Media Executive Producers Paul Anderson and Nick Piniella. And for KSL Podcasts, Executive Producer Cheryl Worsley. For pictures and more, go to our website thecoldpodcast.com and follow us on social at The Cold Podcast.

01:18:50 Speaker_02
Most of all, thank you for listening.

01:18:59 Speaker_00
You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey.

01:19:22 Speaker_00
I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more.

01:19:39 Speaker_00
Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favourite podcasts.