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Episode: The Ruler of the 4th House in Astrology

Author: Chris Brennan
Duration: 07:08:19

Episode Shownotes

In episode 468 astrologers Chris Brennan and Nick Dagan Best discuss what it means when the ruler of the 4th house is placed in each of the 12 houses in a birth chart. This is the second episode in a two-part series on the meaning of the fourth house in

astrology. In the previous episode we talked about the significations of the 4th house, and looked at examples of the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th. In this episode we continue that research by going systematically through each of the 12 houses and looking at examples to understand what it means when the ruler of the 4th house is in different houses in the chart. When the ruler of the 4th house is located in different houses it will connect the 4th house with other areas of the person's life. The 4th house is primarily associated with home, family, parents, private life, and end of life, and these are the main topics that we focus on in this episode. In this episode we experimented with incorporating some listener submissions into the episode, to complement the celebrity examples. Research Notes PDF Patrons of the podcast get access to a PDF that contains our research notes and outline for this episode. This PDF includes a handy episode guide plus bonus content not featured in the episode.

Become a patron of the podcast through our page on Patreon to access this:

https://www.patreon.com/astrologypodcast Nick’s Website NickDaganBestastrologer.com Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction 00:04:07 Ruler of 4th in 1st house 00:29:45 2nd house 01:01:25 3rd house 01:36:57 4th house and IC 02:31:55 5th house 02:49:54 6th house 03:22:00 7th house 04:05:00 8th house 04:28:00 9th house 05:09:19 10th house 05:44:15 11th house 06:20:07 12th house 06:57:36 Concluding remarks 07:06:30 Credits

Watch the Video Version of This Episode Watch the video version of this episode on the fourth house on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoHPAxoO8E0

Listen to the Audio Version of This Episode Listen to the audio version of this episode or download it as an MP3:

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_00
Hey, my name is Chris Brennan, and you're listening to The Astrology Podcast.

00:00:03 Speaker_00
Joining me today is astrologer Nick Dagan-Best, and we're going to be looking at the ruler of the fourth house in each of the 12 houses as part two of two of our series on the fourth house in astrology. So hey, Nick, thanks for joining me again today.

00:00:19 Speaker_00
Hey, Chris, thanks for having me back. Can't get enough of the fourth house. Exactly. We are doing part two.

00:00:26 Speaker_00
We already did a legendary episode last time on the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house where we covered the lives of over 50 different chart examples of showing different variations of how it works out when the ruler of the Ascendant is in the 4th house and talking about the meaning of the 4th house.

00:00:41 Speaker_00
we're going to go even further into it by looking at what it means when the ruler of the 4th house is located in different houses of the chart, like the ruler of the 4th house of home and living situation, in the 11th house of friends, or in the 9th house of travel, and different examples of how that works out.

00:01:01 Speaker_00
So we have something in the range of certainly more than 50 example charts today that we're going to share of different variations of that, where we're going to try to share at least a few, like three to five example charts at least of each house, each of the 12 houses.

00:01:16 Speaker_00
And then I'm going to try something a little bit different today, where I also sent out an open call for examples of submissions, where I asked people,

00:01:26 Speaker_00
where's the ruler of the fourth house located in your chart and what house is it located in and how has that worked out in your life?

00:01:33 Speaker_00
And people sent in some very brief descriptions and I took some of the best ones and we're going to go through some of those during the course of this as well, which I think is really helpful and illuminating because it'll help give us a lot of different perspectives on the placements and broaden things a bit.

00:01:49 Speaker_00
It's also going to help us balance out just people from different walks of life. It's going to help balance out the gender disparity that's in the databases.

00:01:58 Speaker_00
And yeah, I think it's going to be a nice new addition to this series that I just came up with for this episode. Why don't we jump into it? Shall we? Yeah, let's do it. All right, cool.

00:02:08 Speaker_00
So one of the things I wanted to show off the bat just to orient ourselves, we don't have to go through all of these, but I did want to show just a image again to reacquaint ourselves with the significations of the houses.

00:02:23 Speaker_00
For those watching the video version of this podcast, just so you know what the basic significations of the houses are. So here's our

00:02:36 Speaker_00
Here's from my poster that I put together a few years ago with Paula Bellomini, just the basic significations of each of the houses.

00:02:43 Speaker_00
And what we're going to see is that when the ruler of the fourth house is in one of the other 12 houses of the chart, it can show connections between fourth house topics, such as home and family and living situation and private life,

00:03:03 Speaker_00
with other parts of the chart and other parts of a person's life. So what this means is that

00:03:11 Speaker_00
even when the 4th house is empty in your chart, like if you don't have any planets there, you still want to look at the ruler of the 4th house for information about how that part of your chart is working out.

00:03:22 Speaker_00
And this is a common question that I get in past episodes, which is, if I don't have any planets there, then does it mean it's not important to me?

00:03:30 Speaker_00
And the answer is no, because you still have to look at what the ruler of the 4th house is doing, and that's going to show you some information, and in some instances, will make that house much more important than it may seem in the chart.

00:03:41 Speaker_00
Additionally, even if you do have planets in the 4th house, then you still have to pay attention to the ruler of the 4th because that's going to show you how the 4th house is connected to other topics in the chart.

00:03:51 Speaker_00
You can see my previous episode titled, The Rulers of the Houses in Astrology for more information about this technique, but that's just to give you a brief overview of what we're going to be doing today. All right, cool.

00:04:08 Speaker_00
So let's jump into it with our first house. So the first house we're going to talk about is literally the first house, which is the house of self, body, mind, character, and appearance.

00:04:22 Speaker_00
So we already did, you and I, Nick, did a whole episode on the first house at the very beginning of this series.

00:04:28 Speaker_00
And for the first example, I wanted to return to one of the examples that we used in our first house episode already, which is the birth chart of Arnold Schwarzenegger, who has cancer rising and he has Venus, his Libra on the fourth whole sign house.

00:04:48 Speaker_00
So the ruler of the fourth house is Venus, which is placed in cancer in the first house conjunct his Ascendant.

00:04:56 Speaker_00
Additionally, the degree of the floating IC is placed in Virgo in the 3rd house of communication, and it's ruled by Mercury, which is also placed on the Ascendant.

00:05:08 Speaker_00
So it's like both of the planets connected with the 4th house or the ruler of the 4th house of the IC are in his 1st house of self. And one of the things we talked about in our previous episode is how

00:05:21 Speaker_00
One of the interesting things about Arnold is he just has this, he was born in Austria, but then he moved to the United States as a young man when he was doing bodybuilding.

00:05:32 Speaker_00
And then eventually, after being successful as a bodybuilder, he made the transition into movies and became a famous movie star. But he always kept his really iconic Austrian voice, which he's very famous for and is very distinctive.

00:05:49 Speaker_00
And that was very much wrapped up in his fame, his background, his accent from his country of origin, and this unique accent added to his on-screen persona and basically became part of his iconic image and his sense of self, which is the first house.

00:06:08 Speaker_00
And one of the things I think that's interesting about that is at first when he was first getting into movies, he actually trained extensively to remove his accent and to try to improve his English.

00:06:20 Speaker_00
Because he recognized early on that he felt like his accent could be a barrier to achieving his acting ambitions in Hollywood. And he really trained at it just like he did with bodybuilding. However, as his career progressed, his accent became iconic.

00:06:37 Speaker_00
So essentially, he decided to keep it at a certain point, or at least to not worry about it as much as he had earlier in his career.

00:06:45 Speaker_00
And I think that's just a really fascinating thing, just because we have both the ruler of the fourth house of home and origins and country and where you're from in the first house of self and appearance and body and things like that.

00:07:01 Speaker_00
But also the degree of the IC itself is in the 3rd house of communication, and the ruler of that is also in the 1st house. So we're seeing repeating indications here for similar themes.

00:07:14 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely.

00:07:15 Speaker_01
And yeah, you know, the fact that it's Venus pitching in there accounts for the fact that this seeming deficit, you know, became really an asset for him that, you know, really his accent is part of his appeal along with, you know, the way he looks and everything.

00:07:37 Speaker_01
So yeah, you would have thought it was a deficit, but somehow it sort of worked out in his favor. The other thing, just very, very quickly, that Neptune in the fourth, this is a guy who became governor of California.

00:07:52 Speaker_01
And Neptune, of course, was discovered in 1846, just as the United States was winning a war against Mexico, where they acquired all this territory. And I often associate Neptune first with the United States becoming this

00:08:09 Speaker_01
bi-coastal and more sort of, you know, a nation that suddenly now had a huge Hispanic population and was not merely this sort of little Anglophone corner on one side of the ocean.

00:08:25 Speaker_01
And at that same time, Neptune was, as Neptune was discovered, Neptune to me also signifies the global community.

00:08:34 Speaker_01
In the 1840s, there were all these revolutions in 1848, and all these Europeans started moving to the continental United States, including people like Austrians, people who hadn't been living in the United States up until that point.

00:08:48 Speaker_01
So there's just something about just a quick insight that Neptune in the fourth, the fact that this is an Austrian who someday is going to be the governor of California.

00:08:57 Speaker_01
There's something of that there and how it contributes to the fourth house and the fact that he's got that Venus rising, ruling it. It just has that extra bit of magic. It's why he's Arnold Schwarzenegger, let's say.

00:09:13 Speaker_00
Yeah. With the ruler of the fourth and the first, sometimes the house becomes more important when you have the ruler there. I think his living situation and his story of moving from Austria to the United States, becoming an American, and then

00:09:31 Speaker_00
rising up, not just becoming like a famous and iconic American slash Austrian, but also becoming the governor of California and leading his home state at a certain point is another element of that, just in terms of having the ruler of the fourth prominent in his chart and just fourth house matters becoming more prominent, which on its most basic level is just like where you live.

00:09:54 Speaker_01
Yeah, exactly.

00:09:55 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right, so let's move on to our next example.

00:09:59 Speaker_00
Our next one is a different variation of something we talked about in the last episode, especially where in the last episode, we talked about how when the ruler of a house in the last instance, it was like the ruler of the third house

00:10:21 Speaker_00
of short-distance travel. When it's in the first house, sometimes there's things that are named after you.

00:10:27 Speaker_00
Your name or your family name can sometimes become associated with or become part of your brand or become an iconic brand in some sense, since the first house is the house of self. Two of the examples were

00:10:44 Speaker_00
With the Ruler of the Third and the First, there was Enzo Ferrari, where he was the founder of the Ferrari car company.

00:10:52 Speaker_00
His family name then became iconic in terms of being associated with that specific brand of cars and with just racing and fast cars in general. He had the Ruler of the Third and the First. There was another example where

00:11:08 Speaker_00
of a ruler of the third and the first, which was Maria Montessori, who Montessori schools are based on and named after and still flourish in different parts of the world today, also had the ruler of the third and the first.

00:11:22 Speaker_00
Her name literally is associated with this type of schooling or type of schools that she created. So I was really interested.

00:11:31 Speaker_00
I found two more examples of that when it comes to the fourth house, which is more closely connected with fourth house topics, but especially the family. One of them is Donatella Versace,

00:11:46 Speaker_00
who helped to create basically the Versace fashion empire where her family name is central to the brand. And in her birth chart, she has Taurus rising. Leo is on the fourth whole sign house and the ruler is the sun, which is at 10 degrees of Taurus.

00:12:09 Speaker_00
conjunct the degree of the Ascendant at nine degrees of Taurus. So it's a very prominent ruler of the fourth house. She also has Jupiter in a day chart, because I'm treating this as a day chart because she was born at sunrise, essentially.

00:12:23 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure, it's a day chart. So she has Jupiter in a day chart at 23 degrees of Cancer in the sign of its exaltation and conjunct the degree of the IC Uranus in the third house of siblings.

00:12:39 Speaker_00
And of course, she famously helped to create and build the Versace fashion empire with her two brothers, especially her brother Gianni, who was sort of the head of things, but also another brother that was heavily involved as well.

00:12:56 Speaker_00
And then after her brother Gianni was killed in 1997, she actually became a crucial figure in leading the company into the 21st century and making it what it is today, essentially, which is fascinating because it ties back into some of this stuff with the rulers of the houses as well.

00:13:19 Speaker_00
She has the ruler of the third house of siblings and the fifth house of creativity. other things like that. Also relevant, her mother, Francesca, was a dressmaker with her own, who was involved in that whole world as well.

00:13:35 Speaker_00
So that obviously influenced her daughter, Donatella, to a certain extent as well.

00:13:42 Speaker_01
Yeah, no, that's really interesting. What I remember about her chart is that the son was at 23 degrees cancer on the day that her brother was murdered. That's what I remember about that chart, which just to add to the whole, you know, story of it all.

00:14:02 Speaker_01
But yeah, that's a fantastic example. You're absolutely right. The way these names become brands and sort of, you know, bigger than the people themselves that the names take on this power.

00:14:13 Speaker_00
Yeah, exactly, like the family name. Yeah, so that's that example. Moving on, my next example, and I forgot to say we're recording this on Saturday, November 9th, 2024. We started It looks like about 15 minutes ago.

00:14:32 Speaker_00
So our election today was with Pisces rising. So one of the other examples, and we put together all the research for this last month, but now I'm just getting ready to finally recording it now. and we'll probably release it in a few weeks after this.

00:14:50 Speaker_00
So the next example that I found when I was doing this research that stood out to me when I searched my files for the ruler of the fourth house in the first house is the birth chart of Donald Trump.

00:15:02 Speaker_00
So Trump, of course, was famously born with Leo rising, Scorpio is his fourth whole sign house, and the ruler is Mars, which is placed in the first house of self.

00:15:15 Speaker_00
And when I was thinking about this, when it first came up in my searches, I realized pretty much immediately how that made sense because

00:15:23 Speaker_00
You know, his primary thing early on, he got his start as a real estate developer and a property tycoon as a result of his father and his father's business in real estate, which he went into with his father.

00:15:37 Speaker_00
But what's so funny about this example is that Trump was known, he's known for naming buildings after himself. So he has the Trump Tower, he has the Trump Hotels, he has Trump Golf Courses, Trump Casinos.

00:15:54 Speaker_00
There's many, many other things that he's put his name on, but a lot of the core ones happen to be buildings and property things especially. There's actually an entire Wikipedia page that's titled List of Things Named After Donald Trump.

00:16:12 Speaker_00
So it's like this is a continuation essentially of the previous example that we found with the third house stuff where people's names become associated with that house that it's touching in their chart when the ruler of that house is in the first, and this is just another example of that basically.

00:16:33 Speaker_01
Yeah. I mean, it's a pity it's him and not Arnold Schwarzenegger has his name written down all these buildings, there would be more money in the sign letter business, I suppose, invested.

00:16:44 Speaker_00
That's true. Somebody did miss out on that in terms of the sign letter business. Drop the ball. Yeah. So, and then, like I said, it's like Trump got his start in real estate from his father, which is also connected with the fourth house.

00:16:58 Speaker_00
other things like that. So there's family connections there as well and other stuff, but we'll leave it at that for now.

00:17:06 Speaker_00
Another example I wanted to share ties back into originally when this was supposed to be in the same episode as The Ruler of the Ascendant before we decided to just like

00:17:14 Speaker_00
let the first house, the part one episode breathe and go into those biographies in much more detail.

00:17:21 Speaker_00
This was going to be one Marlon Brando to tie into the previous example that we did of Francis Ford Coppola, who had the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house, and he created the Godfather movie and is most known for that.

00:17:38 Speaker_00
I thought it was fascinating that the iconic character from that movie who played the Godfather himself, Marlon Brando, the actor, he was born with Sagittarius rising, Pisces on the fourth whole sign house, as well as the degree of the IC there, and the ruler Jupiter is in Sagittarius in the first house.

00:18:00 Speaker_00
And he just becomes known for, and this becomes one of his most iconic roles, especially later in life, that he won his, I think, second Academy Award for was as being of embodying this character of the Godfather.

00:18:15 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's really spot on. I mean, it's almost like, yeah, he becomes a meme at that point, you know, that the Godfather is just so, you know, to call him an icon is even just kind of understating it. So, yeah.

00:18:32 Speaker_00
Right. Arguably, we could argue about it, but arguably his most iconic role was Godfather, where he played the patriarch of the family. And I guess that's all I wanted to show with that. So those are our first house examples.

00:18:48 Speaker_00
So now I want to shift and talk about some of the listener submissions because it's like,

00:18:54 Speaker_00
I've been trying to pattern this series off of celebrities because then their lives are well-documented, and what I say about them can be proven by just looking up their Wikipedia page or reading biographies on them or what have you.

00:19:11 Speaker_00
And I like that in terms of grounding our research in something that's provable,

00:19:17 Speaker_00
But it's also good to talk to normal people about their lives as well, because sometimes that can give you a sense of the greater range of how things work out and different ways that these things can manifest.

00:19:30 Speaker_00
So I put out a call on social media for submissions on Twitter, Facebook, as well as from patrons of The Astrology Podcast. I'm going to read through and summarize a bunch of those real quickly.

00:19:44 Speaker_00
that came in for this section, for the ruler of the fourth and the first, I'm going to leave out names for privacy reasons for each submission. I'm also going to summarize, shorten, and merge some of the submissions.

00:19:57 Speaker_00
The point is just to get an idea of some different ways that it can manifest, and this is kind of an experimental addition to this series, but I think it was helpful.

00:20:04 Speaker_00
It also helps to balance out, like I said, the gender disparity, because the majority of these submissions are from women. But it'll be a mix of different people from different backgrounds, basically.

00:20:15 Speaker_01
Yeah. Great idea.

00:20:16 Speaker_00
Let's get to it. All right. So here we go. So first one, they said that they had a listener who had the ruler of the fourth is Saturn in the first house. And they said, I am the embodiment of my parents' heritage.

00:20:29 Speaker_00
As my dad immigrated from Europe and my mother from Asia, the first thing people notice about me typically is my mixed appearance.

00:20:37 Speaker_00
So I think that's really striking just in terms of some of those themes you were talking about in the last episode of heritage of your origins, sometimes your country of origin, but also your parents and sometimes their backgrounds.

00:20:50 Speaker_00
But having the ruler of the fourth house of parents and heritage in the first house of self, but also appearance and having something distinctive about your appearance as a result of your family background or heritage, I think is a really interesting delineation.

00:21:09 Speaker_01
So you're reading off the messages, but we're not looking at the charts or anything.

00:21:14 Speaker_00
CB Yeah, we're just going to read off. I'm just going to read them off.

00:21:16 Speaker_00
You have to imagine the placement, but for this section, it's all going to be like a ruler of fourth in the first with some variations based on if they specify the planet or the sign or what have you, but just reading it because it'll give us a bigger, it'll broaden our expanding of the placement and then discussing it a little bit occasionally.

00:21:37 Speaker_00
All right, so the next example is Mars ruling the fourth house placed in the first house by day, and also Pluto conjunct the IC in Scorpio.

00:21:46 Speaker_00
And they said, my childhood was so stressful that I believe it triggered my autoimmune disease that may not have been triggered in a healthier environment. Also, I take my ancestry very seriously and have been probing it my entire life.

00:22:02 Speaker_00
It's a little mysterious. So I thought that was an interesting concept.

00:22:06 Speaker_00
There's a delineation hidden there in terms of like the fourth house and the parents basically in the early home life affecting the person's health with the ruler of the fourth and the first, especially when it's like a challenging placement in this instance.

00:22:23 Speaker_00
And that makes sense.

00:22:25 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah, you can just imagine, you know, adolescence with that kind of placement.

00:22:32 Speaker_01
I think that bottom part of the chart and particularly the fourth house comes under a lot of its development during adolescence, you know, it's sort of make or break.

00:22:42 Speaker_01
And if the family life isn't right, that really is, yeah, you know, you can go in either direction at that point, I suppose.

00:22:50 Speaker_00
CB Right.

00:22:51 Speaker_00
But that's a delineation, like maybe sometimes when the ruler of the fourth is connected with the first, there may be a connection between parents and a person's sense of health and either physical or mental health in some ways, which depending on the placements could be supportive or could be more challenging.

00:23:08 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I certainly think like the fourth house is, you know, where we inherit our families, you know, baggage, like, I mean, it's the legacy as well, but yeah, in the same sense that say, you know, my grandfather's experience in the Second World War tormented him, and then in turn, he tormented my mother, and she in turn tormented me, and it all comes, you know, it's this sort of,

00:23:37 Speaker_01
a lineage of torment that gets passed down generation by generation. That is part of what is moved along in the fourth house, is that kind of legacy along with everything else.

00:23:49 Speaker_00
Right. Or alternatively, sometimes people that have really strong family units that get passed down and when it's really constructive and supportive in some way, Exactly. Yeah, that whole spectrum, of course.

00:24:02 Speaker_01
Yeah.

00:24:03 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. The next person that sent an example, they said, exalted Saturn retrograde conjunct Jupiter retrograde in the first house ruling the fourth house.

00:24:15 Speaker_00
They said, I was born in Ohio, but I'm from Pittsburgh, and we're just kind of built different when it comes to our hometown. I always say I'm a Yinzer first. The loyalty and love people from this city have for it is something special.

00:24:29 Speaker_00
My mom grew up here, tying in the Capricorn Moon and fourth house of mother's home. home being a big part of my identity.

00:24:37 Speaker_00
And I think that's the core of why I thought that was a good example of my pulled out where they said, home being a core part of my identity. And I think that's really good for ruler of the fourth house in the first house.

00:24:51 Speaker_00
Because for some people, that's not a thing. Their home or where they're from is not a core part of their identity. For other people, it really is a core part of their identity.

00:25:01 Speaker_00
Some people have a favorite sports team that they're super into and that's part of their identity.

00:25:08 Speaker_00
So thinking about things in terms of a placement in the first house or a ruler of a house being in the first, being part of your identity, I think makes a ton of sense.

00:25:19 Speaker_01
Absolutely. That resonates with me. I've got the ruler of the fourth and the first and yeah, that's a statement that certainly applies to me.

00:25:28 Speaker_00
Nice. Okay. Yeah. So you are from Do you want to talk about that just briefly?

00:25:34 Speaker_01
Yeah, no, just, you know, I'm from Montreal. And even though I don't live there, I still think of myself as a Montrealer, just, you know, a Montrealer at large, I suppose.

00:25:45 Speaker_01
But yeah, I do absolutely think of myself as being shaped by growing up in that particular place and identify with it very strongly. Yeah. Nice.

00:25:57 Speaker_00
Okay. There's your chart. Leo rising, Scorpio on the fourth whole sign house and Mars and Leo in the first. That's me. Nice. All right. Next example. This listener has fourth house Taurus ruled by Venus, which is in the first house.

00:26:17 Speaker_00
And they said, I moved around a lot and went to different schools up until the third grade. I hated it and it was very painful to leave people I cared for behind. This is pre-social media days.

00:26:29 Speaker_00
As an adult, stability is important for me and to provide stability to my kids. I lived in my first property for 10 years and only moved when we outgrew it, have lived in the secondary property for 10 years and plan to stay.

00:26:44 Speaker_00
My first child only changed school when it was going to middle and then high school. My second had to change for educational reasons, but it was a very difficult choice.

00:26:53 Speaker_00
So with this example, I thought it was good because I realized one thing is that with Taurus fourth house, that means it's Aquarius first house and the ruler of the fourth is in the first and a fixed sign.

00:27:08 Speaker_00
So we've got an emphasis of fixed sign energy in terms of this person's first house of identity and fourth house of a home and living situation.

00:27:16 Speaker_00
But as a result of circumstances or whatever else was going on in the person's chart or transits, they had to move around a lot. But as a fixed sign person, that was experienced as really jarring and really negative.

00:27:28 Speaker_00
And I think part of the core of what they're saying here that carries over from the last one is probably that that was difficult in terms of the person's identity as well, as well as their physical or mental well-being moving around that much.

00:27:43 Speaker_00
as a person with heavy fixed sign emphasis, they feel more of a homeostasis or feel more grounded when they're not moving around a lot. So I thought that was interesting for that reason.

00:27:56 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. Again, that resonates. I grew up in a neighborhood where everyone knew each other. That was very

00:28:04 Speaker_01
sort of tight there was a real community and it all sort of scattered, you know, for a variety of reasons largely political but also just in the natural way that cities and neighborhoods evolve and, and that that was deeply traumatic.

00:28:20 Speaker_01
And again, I'm also sort of fixed in all that way. So yeah, that's something that also really resonates, except it wasn't so much me moving around, but the changes happening around me, but the cumulative effect is the same.

00:28:36 Speaker_00
Yeah, I have Aquarius Rising and also Taurus on the fourth house. I did move a little when I was younger, but I like staying in place. My last three moves have all been triangularly into different living situations on the same cross street.

00:28:55 Speaker_00
So I've lived in one place, and then I moved to another place literally across the street, and then I moved to another place literally across the street, but I've been on this block for I don't know, like 12 or 15 years now.

00:29:09 Speaker_01
Yeah. I remember ages ago sleeping on a couch in a place that you lived that's like next door to where you currently live. So I know this well.

00:29:18 Speaker_00
Yeah.

00:29:18 Speaker_01
Right.

00:29:19 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. So I think that's good for the first house.

00:29:22 Speaker_00
I didn't have as many submissions for that, but I'm hoping that when people listen to this episode and hear some of these, that it's going to connect some things in their head and hopefully people can post

00:29:32 Speaker_00
Especially in the YouTube comments, more examples, if you have like the ruler of the fourth and the first, let us know how that's worked out for you because we'd love to hear different variations of that.

00:29:42 Speaker_01
It's a really good exercise.

00:29:44 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. All right, so let's move on to the second house. The second house is the house, of course, of money, finances, possessions, and other things like that, as we did a whole long episode on that here a few episodes ago in this series.

00:29:58 Speaker_00
The first example I want to share of this that I thought was an interesting one that I found in searching my database was the birth chart of Dave Grohl. who is the famous musician and the frontman of the Foo Fighters.

00:30:12 Speaker_00
He has Capricorn rising, Aquarius is his second whole sign house, and the ruler of the second house of finances is Saturn, which is in the fourth house of home and parents.

00:30:26 Speaker_00
I already used him as an example in part one because he has the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth.

00:30:33 Speaker_00
We talked a little bit, but one of the things that I wanted to use this as is when he became successful, he bought his mom's house basically as the first thing.

00:30:56 Speaker_00
And that's one thing I wanted to mention is just there's a connection there between the second and the fourth.

00:30:59 Speaker_00
But more specifically, if you go back earlier in his biography, he tells this story where he says when he was 12 years old, he saw his mother have a stroke while she was doing her taxes.

00:31:11 Speaker_00
and that this had a major impact on him in terms of his relationship with money. Apparently, he's still very frugal today, even though he's very wealthy as a wildly successful musician. I found this 2014 Guardian interview where it says,

00:31:31 Speaker_00
I was young, I didn't know if I've ever told anybody this, but when I was 12 years old, my mother had a stroke as she was doing her taxes.

00:31:39 Speaker_00
We were in such a tight spot financially because she was a public school teacher raising two kids, and one night she was in the living room doing her taxes. The next thing I know, She's in her bedroom, and we had to call an ambulance.

00:31:53 Speaker_00
She had a stroke, and she had to stay in the hospital for a few weeks. And I remember coming back to the house that night, alone with my sister, and looking at this piece of paper she was writing to the IRS as she started to have her stroke.

00:32:07 Speaker_00
And it left this indelible mark on me that money will kill you, that people spend their lives dying inside because of money.

00:32:16 Speaker_00
And somehow this was just a critical thing for him so that money has not been his primary thing and how his frugality has continued to echo throughout the rest of his life for different reasons, partially going back to this experience or this event that realigned his perceptions in some way.

00:32:40 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely. I can also I can imagine in his, you know, his musical background before he played with Nirvana he was in this band scream, who were based in the Washington DC area and part of the whole discord record label, you know, community.

00:32:58 Speaker_01
And this was a faction of musicians who made, you know, frugal business practices, you know, a calling card. And, and, and so he, you know, he was probably really well schooled by the time he arrived in Nirvana, you know, even though he was a young,

00:33:16 Speaker_01
a rock musician traveling America and, you know, living a somewhat chaotic life, some sense of having a sort of a structured financial future of some kind, you know, and really paying attention to that in a way that a lot of young people maybe don't.

00:33:36 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. I was watching this interview and I was researching this and trying to find more about his background where he did an interview with Conan O'Brien just like a year or two ago.

00:33:45 Speaker_00
And Conan asked him something about success and if he was adverse to it. And Dave Grohl responded saying that he was living in squalor with Kurt Cobain when Nevermind came out before they became wildly successful.

00:34:01 Speaker_00
Dave said he wasn't adverse to money or success because at that time he said, quote, I would have done anything to have my own apartment and to be able to do that with music.

00:34:13 Speaker_00
So I thought it was interesting that one of his first things that comes to mind when he's thinking about responding to this question is just that he really wanted to have enough money to own his own

00:34:22 Speaker_00
home and living situation, basically, and live on his own, basically, instead of with roommates, which he'd been doing for a number of years up to that point.

00:34:30 Speaker_00
And I think that connects with having the ruler of the second house of finances in the fourth house of home and living situation. And then, of course, he becomes wildly successful.

00:34:40 Speaker_00
And one of the first things he did is apparently early on, him and his mother had a conversation about buying her a new house, but they talked about it.

00:34:50 Speaker_00
And instead, what they did was he paid off the mortgage for her current house, which was his childhood home, and then he would go back there. He would travel back to his home periodically to rest and recharge and stuff like that.

00:35:09 Speaker_00
and that was very, very important for him. So he speaks pretty often about the importance of his childhood home and how returning there helps him stay grounded despite the fame. But anyways, it's just an interesting connection.

00:35:21 Speaker_00
Obviously, with the ruler of the Ascendant and the fourth, we have a lot more going on in the fourth house, but there's also this interesting financial component as well with it also being the ruler of the second.

00:35:32 Speaker_01
Yeah, I mean, when Dave moved in with Kurt Cobain, you know, anyone who knew them said that he gave that household a sudden sort of like order and respectability that it didn't have until he got there.

00:35:45 Speaker_01
It was a home that Kurt had lived in with his girlfriend prior to that.

00:35:48 Speaker_01
And, you know, it's an interesting contrast when you consider that in the summer of 91, the same summer that Nevermind was released, Kurt was literally living out of his car when they weren't touring Europe.

00:36:01 Speaker_01
And of course, Kurt was a guy who, you know, one of his most famous songs is written about him being a teenage runaway living under a bridge.

00:36:10 Speaker_01
So, the contrast to Dave being a more sort of home-bound or home-secured type of personality, I think is interesting too.

00:36:21 Speaker_00
For sure, for sure. All right. Let's see the next example.

00:36:26 Speaker_00
This one is not a celebrity, this is a listener submission, but it was such a good one where I had somebody email me and I noticed they're an astrology student and I noticed in their tagline that they were a realtor. And I was like,

00:36:38 Speaker_00
I'm researching this episode. A few weeks ago, we were researching and I said, do you have a connection between your second house and your fourth house if you do real estate? And they said, in fact, yes, I do.

00:36:49 Speaker_00
And they actually had a crazy connection between their second and their fourth where This is the chart of Laura who has Aquarius rising, Pisces on the second whole sign house and Taurus on the fourth house.

00:37:05 Speaker_00
And there's a mutual reception between Venus rules the fourth house and it's exalted in Pisces in the second house and Jupiter rules the second house and it's in Taurus in the fourth house in a mutual reception with Venus.

00:37:20 Speaker_00
So it's actually an incredibly strong mutual reception and something I've talked about a lot in the previous episodes that it's those mutual receptions where you have the rulers of two houses exchanging signs that you know that that's going to be a very important set of topics in the person's life.

00:37:38 Speaker_00
And it's going to tie those areas of the person's life together very tightly better or worse, depending on what the planets are that are involved.

00:37:46 Speaker_00
But you'll always see that stand out so much that when I'm doing the rulers of the houses research at this point, I've been starting with looking for examples in my database that have a mutual reception between two houses as my first order of business, because many of those end up being the best examples.

00:38:03 Speaker_01
I was going to say, I think it's even better than simply having a planet in its own roller ship. It stabilizes the chart even more. It's a real preferential condition.

00:38:15 Speaker_00
Yeah. So this is what Laura said to me. She said, I've had a few careers over my lifetime, but none gave me the success that I have had in real estate. I had a spiritual awakening between 2008 and 2018.

00:38:27 Speaker_00
In late 2016, I began to realize I had the ability to do more with my life. Prior to that, I had zero self-esteem or belief in myself. At the time I was in the cannabis industry as a farmer, also fourth house and very successful at it.

00:38:40 Speaker_00
And I saw the potential in selling properties to growers moving to the area of where she lives and said, I took the real estate class and had my license within a month after deciding to go for it and have been very successful in that.

00:38:56 Speaker_00
So I've been doing it for seven to eight years now. And I wrote a note actually, when I looked up the transits, that in late 2016, the south node was in Pisces, and there was an eclipse that took place there in her second house.

00:39:09 Speaker_00
So this must have been part of the triggering event, I would suspect. So she's now exploring other things.

00:39:24 Speaker_00
She said that she had an experience and had a major breakthrough in terms of healing past trauma and subconscious programming, and now is looking to find a new career and is exploring different things that's more of service, but none of them pay like real estate.

00:39:39 Speaker_00
And I'm feeling somewhat lost when it comes to career and whether or not to stay in real estate is front and center in my mind right now. And I thought that was really interesting since, of course,

00:39:53 Speaker_00
Venus also rules the ninth house in the chart, and there's eclipses starting to happen in Pisces again in the second house, as well as in the ninth house, the other house that's getting activated.

00:40:05 Speaker_00
So yeah, it was just a great example of real estate in connection with the fourth house and it being connected with that, but also making money in connection with fourth house topics.

00:40:17 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good example.

00:40:20 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right, so moving on the next example, I think maybe I mentioned previously, did we do the Kylie Jenner example in the previous in part one? I can't remember because she has the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth.

00:40:34 Speaker_01
I can't remember if we covered it on the episode, if we just discussed her while we were preparing the episode. I apologize again. It was one or the other. We certainly talked about her at one point.

00:40:46 Speaker_00
Yeah, so Kylie Jenner has Capricorn rising, Saturn is ruling both the first house of self and the second house of finances, and it's placed in the fourth house of family.

00:40:59 Speaker_00
Kylie Jenner is a media personality, a socialite, and a businesswoman, but she rose to fame early in her life on the reality television show about her family keeping up with the Kardashians, which follows her family's life essentially.

00:41:16 Speaker_00
And Kylie Jenner leveraged her fame to launch a successful business, most notably her cosmetics company, and became one of the more influential figures in pop culture with a massive social media following.

00:41:34 Speaker_00
But it's really striking that essentially, she was able to become successful financially in connection with her family or as a result of her family and family name at a certain point.

00:41:50 Speaker_00
And obviously, there's more of the focus here because we're talking about the ruler of the Ascendant being the fourth, but it's similar to the Dave Grohl chart, but even more so where there's

00:42:01 Speaker_00
an extra emphasis on the financial component that comes about as a result of the family because she actually, I think, became a billionaire at one point, one of the youngest billionaires, basically. Right, right.

00:42:15 Speaker_01
And I mean, yeah, but you know, part of the reason they get a show, you know, is sort of like, it has to do with having famous fathers.

00:42:24 Speaker_01
I mean, her half-sibling that, you know, the show's called Keeping Up the Kardashians because her half-sister Kim Kardashian Her father was OJ Simpson's lawyer.

00:42:36 Speaker_01
And then of course the mother was divorced and married the person who at the time was Bruce Jenner. And they had Kylie and her, I believe a sibling.

00:42:47 Speaker_01
And so, yeah, there's a whole sort of dynasty of fathers involved in the show and sort of what made this family, a family of celebrities in the first place.

00:43:01 Speaker_00
Right.

00:43:01 Speaker_00
Although I think we did discuss this in the last one when I pointed out that it was actually her mother that was the driving force behind getting the reality show started and who pitched it originally and then still is the matriarch of the family.

00:43:18 Speaker_00
So it's actually really interesting.

00:43:21 Speaker_01
Yeah, that's Kris Jenner. And you're absolutely right. But I mean, part of how she's sort of the power behind the whole thing is, she was married first to Robert Kardashian, and then to Bruce, later Caitlyn Jenner.

00:43:37 Speaker_01
And there is some trading on both those names. I'm not trying to take credit from obviously what is a dynasty that's really established itself in its own right. And they've kind of surpassed the fame of the two fathers.

00:43:49 Speaker_01
But I think that there was something to that. I mean, what made them stand out?

00:43:53 Speaker_00
Yeah. I'm not saying they're not, I'm just adding that the mother was also important in terms of being the one that pitched the show for them. Sure. Yeah.

00:44:04 Speaker_00
So both parents important, tied in with finances, very straightforward example as a contemporary example. All right, so moving on to the next one.

00:44:14 Speaker_00
This is one that was found by one of the people that helped me research this episode, Camille Michelle Gray, pointed out that the American novelist Harper Lee has the ruler of the fourth house of home and living situation in the second house of finances.

00:44:37 Speaker_00
Harper Lee is best known for writing the Pulitzer Prize-winning book To Kill a Mockingbird in 1960, And this is a book that all American schoolchildren read for the most part at this point, or did at one point.

00:44:54 Speaker_00
But it's basically this iconic novel that explores themes of racial injustice and loss of innocence in the American South through the eyes of a young girl named Scout Finch.

00:45:06 Speaker_00
And in the book, Scout's father is a respected lawyer who defends a black man who's wrongly accused of assaulting a white woman And then the trial exposes deep-seated racism and prejudice in the community.

00:45:21 Speaker_00
So what's interesting about the book though, or what's interesting about the background behind it, is that To Kill a Mockingbird was based loosely off of the town that Harper Lee was from.

00:45:33 Speaker_00
And also, it's based loosely off of people she grew up with, as well as a childhood event that actually occurred in her town. And in fact, her own father was a lawyer.

00:45:45 Speaker_00
So basically, the synopsis of this example is that Harper Lee essentially made a living from writing a book about her town, and it was heavily influenced by where she grew up, basically. And this was, for the most part, this is basically a

00:46:02 Speaker_00
the only book she wrote. It wasn't like the only, only book, but this was like the major book that she wrote that she's known for. So I thought that was actually a really amazing example that Camille found.

00:46:13 Speaker_01
Yeah, no, we read that book in Canada as well. I remember very well the chapter that opens when she thinks the world is ending, but it's really just that there's been a rare snowfall in Alabama.

00:46:26 Speaker_01
One of her childhood friends who I believe is characterized in the book was Truman Capote, who she maintained a friendship, you know, with through adulthood.

00:46:34 Speaker_01
And she accompanied him when he was doing his research for his famous book about the murders, the title of which escapes me right now. But yeah, and they both had, you know, the same Mars at 25, 26 Aquarius as well.

00:46:49 Speaker_01
But yeah, like he's part of that world that she creates in the book as well. So there's an interesting, you know, literary association that comes up through that.

00:47:01 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. And I forgot to mention the chart placements, but Harper Lee has Libra rising, Capricorn is on the fourth house with the IC, and the ruler is Saturn, which is placed in Scorpio in the second house in a day chart.

00:47:15 Speaker_00
And it has this very nice trine from Venus in Pisces as well as a square from Jupiter in Aquarius. So she became very financially successful based on this book, based on her hometown essentially.

00:47:32 Speaker_00
All right, so thanks to Camille for finding that example. All right, other examples.

00:47:39 Speaker_00
This is a classic one I always use for the rulers of the houses, the birth chart of Maurizio Gucci, who has a mutual reception between the fourth house of family and parents and the second house of finances.

00:47:55 Speaker_00
He had Cancer Rising with Libra on the fourth whole sign house ruled by Venus, which is placed in Leo in the second house. and the sun is really in the second house and it's placed in Libra, so the two are exchanging signs. This person

00:48:13 Speaker_00
like the grandson of the Gucci fashion empire. And in the 1980s, inherited his father's essentially half of the business basically, and ended up taking over the business, became wildly financially successful as a result of that.

00:48:28 Speaker_00
And that's basically it. It's like if you looked at this chart, didn't know who this was, and let's say it's a client that comes in, you see a mutual reception between the second house and the fourth house.

00:48:44 Speaker_00
One of the most basic things you're going to ask them is, is there a connection between your parents or your family and your finances or your money and possessions for some reason?

00:48:55 Speaker_00
And if you just asked that as just the most simple question, they would say yes. That would be a strong yes answer that they would come back and tell you, which would

00:49:06 Speaker_00
end up looking pretty impressive but is just based on something relatively simple in the chart.

00:49:11 Speaker_01
You could also, you could even wind up asking the question, does your family have their name written on an item that people carry their money around in? That there is also that element to it too. It's the Gucci handbag, yeah.

00:49:26 Speaker_01
I can't think of anything more second house than, you know, what kind of handbag you have. You know, if you have a Gucci, that's like, you know, that's a second house with status. Totally.

00:49:38 Speaker_00
That's good. Good call, good call. Thank you. I've got a closet full of the things, so I should know. You got a closet full of Gucci handbags? Handbags, oh yeah, yeah. Can't you tell? The Gucci guy? Yeah.

00:49:51 Speaker_01
Oh, that's me. The Gucci handbag guy.

00:49:54 Speaker_00
I mean, I'm waiting for them to roll out the Gucci Astrolabes. If they roll out some of those, I'll be on board with that. Yeah, man, some class in our act. Astrologers used to have like paraphernalia, like actual bling paraphernalia.

00:50:11 Speaker_00
We got to get back to those days. I think that's what I think.

00:50:15 Speaker_01
Yeah. You know, when you look at astrology conferences, like from back in the 30s, and they're all in their tuxes and their furs and all that, it was a different time.

00:50:26 Speaker_00
Yeah, I was thinking further back, like Nostradamus times, but that's good as well. All right.

00:50:34 Speaker_01
Maybe we should start wearing tuxes on the astrology podcast. There's a case, there's an argument for that.

00:50:39 Speaker_00
Right. Yeah, maybe we can do one of those. I'll think about that. We'll workshop this. All right. Next example, Queen Elizabeth II has

00:50:52 Speaker_00
Cap had Capricorn Rising, Aries' fourth whole sign house, ruled by Mars, which is placed in Aquarius in the second house, and obviously you know, obscenely wealthy as a result of the family and as a result of the family inheritance?

00:51:08 Speaker_00
Or you could say that the wealth and money was tied in with the family lineage since it was something that she inherited from her father and from her family and ancestry and things like that?

00:51:23 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, absolutely. She was also, she was crowned queen when she was 27 years old, which is a, you know, fourth house perfection year.

00:51:35 Speaker_01
And so again, that idea of family lineage and, you know, the things that you get from your family, you know, are found there. And there was this title that was bestowed on her.

00:51:51 Speaker_00
Yeah, that's good. That's a good counter to our previous 27 club examples from part one.

00:51:59 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely. We made it quite clear in that episode. Obviously, most people do not pass away at the age of 27.

00:52:07 Speaker_01
But when they do pass away at the age of 27 and you're an astrologer, then you do look to their fourth house because you know that they would have passed away during that perfection year.

00:52:19 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. Let's see, last celebrity example in this section.

00:52:23 Speaker_00
I'd already used this in the second house episode, but I just want to reiterate because I thought it was an interesting delineation that'll actually tie in with some of our listeners' submissions. But I had noticed that

00:52:35 Speaker_00
The famous podcaster Joe Rogan has the ruler of the second house of finances in the fourth house of home and living situation, and he became wildly successful financially as a result of starting a podcast, which was originally hosted in his home and where he would have guests to his home to interview for hundreds of episodes.

00:53:01 Speaker_00
Yeah, that's basically it.

00:53:03 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah, basically. And the last time Mars went retrograde in Leo at the end of 2009 was when he recorded the very first episode of the show, what was at the time a live stream.

00:53:18 Speaker_01
So you can even see in the transits the way that's triggered that fourth house. But yeah, you totally think, I mean, his show is set around the, it's supposed to be a man cave, right? It's supposed to be your

00:53:30 Speaker_01
Joe's your buddy and you go to see him in his man cave so you can have a drink and talk about whatever. That's the whole sort of vibe of the program. It's not meant to be some media studio like you get on television.

00:53:45 Speaker_00
Right. It's supposed to be homey and intimate. Yeah, that's true. And then of course, we have another Mars retrograde happening now, and that's obviously very important.

00:53:56 Speaker_00
I was just watching a thing where this election that just happened became the battle of, I was actually calling it in the last forecast episode, the battle of the podcasts, because I could see both candidates were going on all these podcasts, but that really

00:54:10 Speaker_00
Obviously, it didn't become a decisive factor, but I thought it was so fascinating and something I'm going to talk about in this next forecast episode when I do a recap, just Jupiter and Gemini this year and the long form podcasts and the battle of the different candidates going on these long podcasts did play a very significant role.

00:54:30 Speaker_00
And there were different successes as well as missteps when it came to that area. somehow in the end, it came down to this guy's podcast especially and who went on it or who didn't go on it. Anyway, there's interesting things going on there.

00:54:48 Speaker_00
Maybe we'll save that and talk about that in the future, but he just has a signature for making money at home and that worked out in a very literal sort of stunning way in our contemporary times.

00:55:02 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, the last two times Mars has been retrograded, Leo, like I said, the last time was when he started the very first episode of the show he has.

00:55:11 Speaker_01
And then 15 years before that was literally the broadcast episode of NewsRadio, the TV show that put him on the map of entertainment, you know, at least as a first step. So it tends to be a good transit for him.

00:55:27 Speaker_01
This is a matter for another conversation, but Mars retrograde transits just tend to be really important in his life, broadly speaking, but certainly the ones in Leo have been the most important.

00:55:35 Speaker_01
They've been the ones when his life has gone up to some new level of success. And you can imagine because of the role that he just played, that he's probably headed for some new, you know,

00:55:49 Speaker_01
some new level, despite already having the most popular show on the internet.

00:55:55 Speaker_00
Yeah. We'll see how that goes. But obviously, it was important there at the very end of that election when he endorsed Trump and And a lot of people were trying to get Harris to go on his podcast, but she didn't end up doing it.

00:56:13 Speaker_00
And there was a whole debate about that and whether that was a misstep or different things. Anyways, I'll save that for the post-election analysis. Let's move on to listener examples, listener submissions.

00:56:25 Speaker_00
So one listener said that they have the ruler of the fourth in the second house, and they said, I've worked from home quite a few times in my life, even before Zoom.

00:56:36 Speaker_00
There was basically a bunch of submissions like that, and that's the reason why I included and kept the Joe Rogan example here.

00:56:43 Speaker_00
Another submission from Twitter said, both me and my partner have our rulers of the fourth house in our second house, and we both work from home.

00:56:53 Speaker_00
A third listener said, ruler of the fourth and the second, and I've been working with my mom for half my life.

00:56:58 Speaker_00
So there's a different variation of another fourth house topic, which is parents and making money with your parents, which is similar then to the Kylie Jenner example. Another listener says, ruler of the fourth house is the moon in the second.

00:57:16 Speaker_00
Me and my mom own a bed and breakfast together. She also worked for government housing. I have Saturn and Libra. We co-own a business regarding housing together. I also bought my home in my second house perfection year at the age of 25.

00:57:36 Speaker_00
So I think there's a lot of interesting stuff going on there, working with the mother, owning a bed and breakfast, having a business regarding housing, lots of themes there that are all constellating. And that's something maybe worth mentioning that

00:57:53 Speaker_00
It's not always just one thing or one manifestation, but instead during the course of a person's life, sometimes you can get two or three or more different variations of different manifestations depending on how the placements are getting activated, what transits they're receiving, other things like that.

00:58:11 Speaker_00
Sometimes it is like a singular thing, but oftentimes there's different ways these things can manifest and you'll see different forms of manifestation at different times in a person's life.

00:58:23 Speaker_01
Yeah, that can be possibly one of the most daunting things about doing delineation is how many or how few variants of an interpretation are you gonna land on over the course of reading a chart?

00:58:38 Speaker_01
Because indeed, sometimes you just keep pulling more skin off the onion and finding more layers to how a given placement or what have you is manifesting.

00:58:50 Speaker_01
Or sometimes it's just that one thing that's obviously so central and really important and there doesn't seem to be anything else relative that's signified by the chart.

00:58:59 Speaker_01
So it's, yeah, it's a daunting part of the whole thing is determining how much or how little you're going to find.

00:59:10 Speaker_00
That's why what we're doing here is so important, just so people have a broad range of understanding of the different possible manifestations, that it sets you up in a much better position to understand how it can manifest in different ways and then to see the ways that it actually does in your life or in the life of others.

00:59:30 Speaker_00
All right, so here's the next example. This listener said, the ruler of my fourth house is Jupiter in Capricorn in the second house. And they said, I was homeless three separate times, and then my father bought me a house after my first Saturn return.

00:59:47 Speaker_00
So that's pretty striking in terms of the father helping to get the person into a living situation, especially at the Saturn return or just after it when Saturn's being activated itself since it's actually connected with that whole thing. Yeah.

01:00:08 Speaker_00
And then the last example I got was a listener who said, fourth house Capricorn with Saturn in the second house in Scorpio conjunct the south node. I also have a Capricorn stellium and Pluto in Scorpio, so somewhat challenging placements.

01:00:24 Speaker_00
They said, I was born into poverty. My mother died when I was five and my father was an alcoholic that wasn't around much. I knew from a young age that I didn't want to end up poor, so I worked very hard to get myself out of that life.

01:00:37 Speaker_00
Now at almost 40, I've been working on healing and getting back in touch with my emotional self.

01:00:42 Speaker_00
My discovery of paganism and shamanism and connecting to the spiritual world and ancestors has allowed me to rebuild my self-worth, self-love, and vulnerability. Improving my self-worth has also improved the resources that I have available to me.

01:00:58 Speaker_00
So I thought that was really interesting one, especially in terms of some of the deeper psychological or other meanings of some of these houses and the ways in which that can sometimes work out sometimes and especially what happens sometimes when it's challenging placements and you have really difficult things, especially at the starting point or earlier in your life in terms of this.

01:01:21 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good one.

01:01:24 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right, so let's move on to the 3rd house and the ruler of the 4th and the 3rd.

01:01:33 Speaker_00
This one was a little trickier to find examples for, but I found some decent ones and then we had a lot of good submissions that actually helped to solidify things.

01:01:42 Speaker_00
I wasn't going to dwell on this because we already did a lot in the 3rd house episode that I did with Lisa previously, but here's a few really quickly. So one of them is

01:01:53 Speaker_00
want to share first was the birth chart of the Mercury Cafe, which was a local business here in Denver. In the chart of the Mercury Cafe, it has the ruler of the fourth house in the third house.

01:02:08 Speaker_00
What's notable about that is it was a really important business that had very big community involvement element where it gave space for many groups to host events. It was like

01:02:22 Speaker_00
a building that was giving building space, especially for groups and other things that wanted to organize there, so that there was this neighborhood, third house involvement. For example,

01:02:37 Speaker_00
We started the Denver Astrology Group there in 2008 or 2009, I think, and it's still running to this day, meeting there once a month where astrologers can go and have a physical space to talk with each other, which is like third house communications, to present lectures, and to also socialize and make friends.

01:02:58 Speaker_00
And that's just one of the groups that was hosted there over the years in terms of community involvement.

01:03:06 Speaker_00
which is really important because the owner, Marilyn, is an astrologer as well, as well as somebody that's very involved in activism and community work and other things like that, the original owner.

01:03:19 Speaker_00
And I thought that was just such an interesting manifestation of that.

01:03:23 Speaker_01
Yeah, it was a fantastic place. First time I ate there, of course, was in 2008 when we had the UAC conference there. And then of course, I did give a talk there in 2013, when I was on my speaking tour and you hosted me.

01:03:40 Speaker_01
That same time I slept in that basement apartment adjacent to the building you now live in. So yeah, a lot of fond memories going back to a few instances.

01:03:52 Speaker_00
Yeah. And you know what that talk was that you gave a talk on was on the Uranus return of the United States.

01:03:57 Speaker_01
Right. It was somewhat relevant to recent events, I suppose.

01:04:03 Speaker_00
Yeah. Well, events coming up next year. Yeah. All right. Let's move on. The next example is one that was recently in the news again.

01:04:18 Speaker_00
But this is the birth chart of Eric Menendez, who was famously one of the Menendez brothers, who famously murdered both of their parents and then was sent to jail for that for much of the past two or three decades.

01:04:34 Speaker_00
And in his chart, you can see a connection between those houses where the ruler of the fourth house of home and parents is Jupiter, which is placed in the 3rd house of siblings.

01:04:49 Speaker_00
So there's obviously a strong connection here between the topic of siblings and parents. And in this instance, it worked out in that very literal and extreme way in a negative way, but also just

01:05:05 Speaker_00
that's an example of those two topics being interconnected. Because there's certain house rulers where sometimes you look at it symbolically and you're like, well, how can that house be connected?

01:05:16 Speaker_00
Or sometimes it's harder to generate meanings, I feel like, for some combinations than others until you see an example like that and you realize, okay, that's actually a very specific way that those two topics could become much more intertwined in people's lives.

01:05:32 Speaker_01
Yeah, and yeah, I mean, of course it was a crime he committed with his brother. I mean, right off the bat, you don't think of Eric Menendez separate from his brother, you know, they became famous as a team. So there's that element to it as well.

01:05:47 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure.

01:05:48 Speaker_00
And then apparently the district attorney or something was recommending their release recently because of new information that was coming out about possible abuse or other things suffered by the brothers or one of the brothers from the parents that may have given a context for the murders or something like that, so that there was this surprise of

01:06:10 Speaker_00
the government or the prosecutors in California recently calling for the release. So I'm not following that super closely, so I don't know all the details.

01:06:19 Speaker_00
I'm sure other people might who are more familiar with the case, but it'll be interesting to see that develop and just what happens there.

01:06:25 Speaker_00
But even whatever the reason that developments are, the fact that that's been such a prominent thing in the life, I think, clearly shows that connection between the third and the fourth. Yeah, absolutely. CB All right.

01:06:37 Speaker_00
So another one that I was curious about is I was curious about travel and movement. And one of the charts that I found that was really cool in terms of that is Richard Branson, who has Leo rising and Scorpio on the fourth whole sign house.

01:06:55 Speaker_00
And the ruler is Mars, which is located in Libra in the third whole sign house with Neptune and the degree of the IC. and home and travel are deeply intertwined in his life as well as his business ventures.

01:07:13 Speaker_00
He has homes in various locations and he travels constantly.

01:07:19 Speaker_00
One of the interesting things in terms of his early biography that I found is that at one point, he lived on a houseboat in London during his younger years when he was first starting one of his first companies, Virgin Records.

01:07:32 Speaker_00
And this was more out of necessity than a lifestyle choice because it was an affordable option in London at the time. But nonetheless, I thought it was really

01:07:41 Speaker_00
fascinating, like living on a boat, which is like a form of transportation, and the third house being one of the houses of travel, especially, and of different things that move, and of movement, and having your home literally being in something that moves.

01:07:59 Speaker_01
He's got so many homes that in fact, the true story, if I look out my right, out the door to my right and look up the mountain adjacent to our house, I can see one of the homes he owns.

01:08:11 Speaker_01
And I can tell you, he's got one of the largest swimming pools there I've ever seen in my life. I've never seen him there. Apparently, I think it's a brother-in-law or someone who looks after the place. But yeah, he's got a lot of them apparently.

01:08:26 Speaker_00
Yeah, well, apparently his main residence is on an island where he has a private island in the British Virgin Islands. Other notes, he previously owned a luxury boat, which he often used for cruising and exploring the Caribbean.

01:08:44 Speaker_00
Virgin Voyages, he launched his own cruise line called Virgin Voyages and often travels on their ships for promotional events and to enjoy the experience. So again, living on a boat and traveling around while you're sleeping, for example.

01:09:00 Speaker_00
And then finally, he also started Virgin Galactic, where he's starting to focus on space tourism, which is going to involve essentially at some point living on spaceships for short periods of time for the purpose of tourism.

01:09:15 Speaker_00
So again, I thought that was so interesting because the broadest meaning of that half of this is just like, what if your home and living situation is tied in with travel by having the ruler of the fourth and the third, and here's a manifestation of how that can work out?

01:09:36 Speaker_01
Yeah, and you've kind of buried the lead. Before a lot of his big enterprises, apart from Virgin Records, is the fact that he used a hot air balloon.

01:09:46 Speaker_01
I'm sure he probably still does, but I think he's gone after and maybe even achieved certain records for duration or distance or what have you with hot air balloon travel. There's that component to it as well.

01:10:01 Speaker_01
And yeah, it is sort of, you know, very, the idea of travel being sort of like hopping around like treating, treating the entire planet like it's, you know, your local neighborhood and you're just hopping from, you know, you're like,

01:10:14 Speaker_01
hopping from bar to bar, you're going from this supermarket to that fishmonger or what have you, he's bouncing around in that kind of way. It's not ninth house travel where there's some deep purpose to what you're seeking.

01:10:29 Speaker_01
It's just kind of moving around as a part of life, as a way of life.

01:10:34 Speaker_00
Right. Yeah. That makes sense. All right. So another person I talked to where I was struggling to get good chart examples in this section at first. And one of the people I talked to is our friend, Patrick Watson. I've never heard of him.

01:10:50 Speaker_00
I've never heard of him. He's going to be sad to hear that. But

01:10:57 Speaker_00
Patrick Watson, our good friend who you host a live stream with, has Leo rising, Scorpio fourth house ruled by Mars where Mars is placed in Libra in the third house, and then the ruler of the third house is Venus where Venus is placed in Scorpio in the fourth house.

01:11:15 Speaker_00
So there's a mutual reception between the fourth and the third. And he wrote me a bunch of stuff because I asked him what his reflections were on that, and he said several different things.

01:11:27 Speaker_00
One of them that I thought was interesting, he says, I'm either on good terms with my parents, but not my brothers, or on good terms with my brothers, but not my parents, but never at the same time.

01:11:39 Speaker_00
I thought this was interesting because it's kind of a subtle observation that only astrologers or people living their lives can make and that it's hard to make from the outside with celebrity charts.

01:11:49 Speaker_00
But there's all sorts of family dynamic stuff like that that I'm sure is present in different people's lives based on the condition of the rulers that we'll just see glimpses of during the course of this, but especially in the listener examples.

01:12:03 Speaker_00
More concretely, he said, my mother was a ballet dancer, which I thought was fascinating because that brings in the movement element of the third house.

01:12:12 Speaker_00
And then he says, my father is a musician, which is also fascinating because that brings in the communication portion of the third house as well.

01:12:23 Speaker_00
Let's see, he says, in childhood, my mother was often away running her local ballet school, which is fascinating because that's like an education version of the third house as well as movement.

01:12:34 Speaker_00
And then he says, and my father was often away traveling on tour. So ruler of the fourth and the third, and the father was often away traveling.

01:12:45 Speaker_00
also says, my brothers and I were partially raised by au pair students, which is an interesting additional manifestation. He says, in childhood, I was the favorite son, which caused resentment and competitiveness with my brothers,

01:13:02 Speaker_00
then he says, I shared a bedroom with my older brother all the way through until college, which was a constant battlefield.

01:13:09 Speaker_00
And I thought it was an amazing manifestation of ruler fourth and third sharing a living space with your brother, but having it be Mars and there be some tension or some competition or conflict.

01:13:20 Speaker_00
He said, I went from favorite son to persona non grata, estranged from father due to circumstances surrounding parents' divorce, but my brothers are now on much better terms with both parents.

01:13:34 Speaker_00
he says during the divorce between parents, it became closer with my brothers and we put down our swords for a bit. And then finally, my mother becomes a neighbor.

01:13:42 Speaker_00
My loyalty to my mother led me to help her purchase a house nearby so that she could retire. And then she had to move across the country for this, causing tensions in his family where some relatives feel like he's stolen the mother away in some ways.

01:14:06 Speaker_00
But nonetheless, now his mother lives close by him, basically in his neighborhood, and they visit frequently. So I thought that was fascinating, seeing multiple different aspects of that that manifest in the life.

01:14:23 Speaker_01
Absolutely. And I'll tell you from day one, I always had the guy pegged as a mom thief. So there you go. That's destiny coming alive. But yeah, no seriousness. Yeah. Obviously I've known him a long time and most of those details were privy to me. Yeah.

01:14:43 Speaker_01
On the point of siblings, you're absolutely correct. When you look at certain celebrities, sometimes there really is a whole family behind them.

01:14:52 Speaker_01
People like Napoleon or, you know, not long ago we were talking about Aretha Franklin who, you know, individuals who have just like this enormous stature but when you really look into their life story it really is a family story that really are the siblings involved in the story are very important even if they're not

01:15:11 Speaker_01
as celebrated as, as the individual.

01:15:14 Speaker_01
Yeah, Napoleon and Aretha Franklin are just two names that come to mind but I can actually when I think about it, it's quite a few stories like that so it is an important component that is what you do get from these, these more sort of

01:15:27 Speaker_01
intimate stories you get from your listeners and viewers.

01:15:31 Speaker_01
Because that's more of a peek behind the curtain, especially when we're doing these particular houses, these third houses, fourth house stories, which won't always have to do with whatever it is that has made a person famous, but a lot of the behind the scenes details.

01:15:47 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. And that's why I also do the live ones where I interview some patrons and talk about their placements.

01:15:55 Speaker_00
And I already recorded that episode, which I'll release after this one, which gives you a little bit more insight into that when you're talking directly to normal non-celebrity people. But this is another good element. All right, so moving on.

01:16:11 Speaker_00
Another one I was looking at for this when the ruler of the fourth house of home and origins is in the third house of communication is Kendrick Lamar, who's one of the most prominent rappers at this point in time and musicians in the past decade, has

01:16:32 Speaker_00
Libra rising, Capricorn fourth house ruled by Saturn, which is in Sagittarius in the third. And this one was a listener named Angela Carvalho helped me to think about this one recently, because I thought it was good.

01:16:49 Speaker_00
Because I had already kind of talked about this in the context of Drake, who has something similar in the last, in the third house episode. I think I used that example. But one of the things for Kendrick- Oh, wow. They should be friends.

01:17:00 Speaker_00
Yeah, we'll see. You can introduce them and let me know how that goes. I'm sure they'd get along. Right.

01:17:08 Speaker_00
So Kendrick, the thing about this example is that Kendrick talks a lot about his neighborhood and where he came from and his music and his neighborhood of Compton, California.

01:17:17 Speaker_00
And ironically, it's actually very similar to Drake who has the ruler of the third and the fourth and talks a lot about his neighborhoods in Toronto. And I think that's fascinating in terms of both of them.

01:17:34 Speaker_00
So there's Kendrick's chart, here's Drake's chart, we has Leo rising, Libra is on the third whole sign house and it's ruled by Venus, which is in the fourth.

01:17:45 Speaker_00
But just sometimes people who communicate about where they're from a lot and where that's a major thing for them in different ways.

01:17:56 Speaker_01
Yeah. And especially when it comes down to neighborhoods, that's very sort of third house specific. A neighborhood distinct within a city, Compton, not Los Angeles. That's where that kind of thing becomes really, really important.

01:18:14 Speaker_01
third house people are absolutely that the people who, you know, have been going to the same hairdresser for 30 years around the corner, or like they just, there's a supermarket, they're completely devoted to, you know, that kind of thing.

01:18:28 Speaker_00
For sure. All right, so the next example, this is one that Camille Michelle Gray found, and this is the birth chart of Antoni Gatti, who was a famous architect. So for the audio listeners, he has Virgo rising or had Virgo rising.

01:18:47 Speaker_00
The fourth house is Sagittarius and it's ruled by Jupiter, which is placed in Scorpio in the third house with the IC and the same sign, although much later in a day chart.

01:18:58 Speaker_00
He was a famous architect, but one of the things Camille pointed out is that his projects are all in Barcelona, Spain, which is in the vicinity of where he was born.

01:19:12 Speaker_00
So the delineation is something like ruler of the fourth and the third is the building of structures in the local area or in your neighborhood.

01:19:21 Speaker_00
He was born in Ruz, Catalonia, Spain, and all of his works are around Barcelona, which is about 62 miles southwest of Barcelona. So I think it's fascinating because it's not exactly in the hometown, but it's a neighboring city basically.

01:19:39 Speaker_00
Let's see, so notes of what I wrote down, his architectural masterpieces have become iconic symbols of the city and continue to inspire awe and wonder in visitors from around the world.

01:19:50 Speaker_00
And what Camille pointed out about this example is that his works were influenced by his passions in life, which were architecture, nature, and religion, which is bringing in some of those third and fourth house components where he apparently studied a wide array of subjects, economics, history, different Oriental arts, philosophy, geometry, all of which had a profound impact on his work and that he integrated into his architecture.

01:20:19 Speaker_00
He also took inspiration from a variety of different cross-cultural and diverse sources, where I found one quote that said, as a student, Gotti studied a collection of photographs of Egyptian, Indian, Persian, Mayan, Chinese, and Japanese art.

01:20:36 Speaker_00
owned by the School of Architecture. The collection also included Moorish monuments in Spain, which inspired many of his early works. And actually, I think Camille may have found that quote.

01:20:49 Speaker_00
So being deep in study essentially informed a lot of his work is what Camille said. And he also has an appreciation of nature that often shows up in his work.

01:20:59 Speaker_00
And nature was a major component that we talked about in terms of the fourth house in the last episode. And then the last thing that Camille noted was that ironically, he died after being hit by a train on his daily walk.

01:21:13 Speaker_00
So fourth house being end of life sometimes and death, and third house being travel, short distance travel, but also things that travel.

01:21:23 Speaker_01
I was about to bring that one up, and I was like, oh no, he's going to be mad I bring up another death with the fourth house. But yeah, that is kind of cosmically funny.

01:21:32 Speaker_01
When I say cosmically funny, I mean, of course, the kind of pranks only the cosmos can pull. Yeah, indeed, dying because he got hit by a train and the rule of the fourth is in the third. It speaks for itself.

01:21:47 Speaker_00
Yeah. Sometimes literally the cosmos has a weird sense of humor as we're learning right now. All right. Let's go to listener submissions next. Because I think these really helped to round out this section.

01:22:07 Speaker_00
I was glad that we got a bunch of these for the third house. Got a bunch more actually for the third house.

01:22:15 Speaker_00
One of them recently, there was a patron in a recent episode, I think it was the one where I did the live interviews that had a great version of this, where he had strong connection between his third and his fourth, and he lived with his siblings as an adult and lived with different siblings at different points off and on and still did to this day.

01:22:35 Speaker_00
So that was in the live chart readings of the second and third house. I wanted to reiterate and mention that here is a possible delineation living with siblings.

01:22:46 Speaker_00
Another listener said they're the ruler of the fourth and the third, and they said, I've been happiest in my living situation when I have roommates or friendly neighbors who bring over frequent visitors.

01:22:59 Speaker_00
Another person said, my fourth house ruler is my third house Virgo Venus, and my third house ruler is in my fourth.

01:23:09 Speaker_00
It worked out very literally in that communication with family has been a constant catalyst for events, good and bad in my life, along with it being how I've connected with so many new friends.

01:23:21 Speaker_00
So communication with family is a catalyst for major events in the person's life. Another person says, my fourth house is Virgo and the ruler Mercury is in my third house. I've moved around so much!

01:23:36 Speaker_00
I'm 30 years old and have lived in 17 different houses or apartments, which does sound like a lot. And there was actually several people that said something very similar.

01:23:49 Speaker_00
Another person said, Virgo is on my fourth house with Mercury in the third, Pluto's in the fourth. We moved a lot growing up. I lived in 68 houses by the time I was 17, often just a nearby town away. So it was just short distance moves.

01:24:06 Speaker_00
My father loved to move. I think that is so I think that's so perfect.

01:24:11 Speaker_00
Because that was literally one of the key, the core words that I came up with that I eventually realized by the end of researching the third house, is I realized that the core thing about the third house was movement.

01:24:25 Speaker_00
And sometimes that extended to not just vehicles and stuff, which we commonly think for the third house, but sometimes even moving your body and stuff, that the third house is really just about movement. Because the fourth house is

01:24:40 Speaker_00
the earth that's beneath your feet, but the third house is the first house that's moving away from that. It's declining away from the fixity of the ground that's under your feet. So sometimes it's literally just about movement.

01:24:54 Speaker_00
And in this case, we're talking about movement when it comes to one's home and living situation, and especially the father in that instance being the one who loved to move.

01:25:05 Speaker_01
Yeah, building on that. I mean, I sometimes think of it being the third and ninth house axis being an axis of space, as opposed to the sixth and 12th house axis being an axis of time.

01:25:20 Speaker_01
So yeah, the third and ninth have to do with the sort of the space around you. And I suppose that the movement that you can or cannot execute within a given space.

01:25:34 Speaker_00
Right. All right, so the next example says Cancer 4th house and Gemini Moon in the 3rd house. They said, I moved to Japan on my 3rd house perfection year and stayed there for 11 years. I'm in the US now. We moved back when I was 12.

01:25:51 Speaker_00
My mother is in the military, so I've moved around a whole bunch. So I thought that was funny because the previous one was the father, this one is the Moon ruling,

01:26:00 Speaker_00
And the mother being in the military and being the result of them moving around a lot as a result of being a military kid and also moving to a foreign country at that time when that was activated in the third house perfection here.

01:26:18 Speaker_00
So even though sometimes we like to think about the third houses like short distance travel, sometimes you can get some overlap with the ninth house and like different countries as well, even though it is typically more short distance travel.

01:26:33 Speaker_01
Yeah. I mean, that whole short and long distance travel thing, I think is just one way of looking at that axis.

01:26:41 Speaker_01
I tend to look at the travel as being more the motivation behind the travel as much, if not equal to, or more so than the actual distance you have to travel.

01:26:54 Speaker_01
I think like the purpose behind third house travel is more pragmatic, it's more about, you know, you're going to do shopping, you're going to visit your mother, your mother might live on the other end of the planet, but you're sort of taking care of business.

01:27:11 Speaker_01
Ninth house travel

01:27:13 Speaker_01
is, you know, you're, you're consulting the Oracle, you're, you're off to sort of seek answers, you know, whether it's, you know, you might go to Cairo to see the pyramids, you might go to Paris to see the Eiffel Tower, or you might go to Las Vegas to see the pyramids and the Eiffel Tower, but you're going to sort of, you know, interact with some kind of natural wonder or manmade wonder.

01:27:37 Speaker_01
Yeah, the ninth house is more sort of, you know, it's tourism in the sense that you're off to seek something. The third house is more pragmatic, you're taking care of daily life. But I guess that's just one distinction.

01:27:54 Speaker_01
So usually, yeah, usually there's a distance involved in terms of long and short, but I think that the motivation behind the travel is as important as the distance traveled.

01:28:03 Speaker_00
Yeah, I think that's true, and there can be additional elements like that. But I guess one of my points is that even though we try to make strong distinctions between what each house does.

01:28:16 Speaker_00
When it comes to especially the axis between two opposing houses, sometimes there can be more overlap in meanings than we realize or that we like to admit sometimes in modern times.

01:28:27 Speaker_00
And this is one of the things that was a little bit clearer in some of the ancient Hellenistic texts is that there's a little bit more interchangeability sometimes between opposing houses and their significations. Yeah.

01:28:39 Speaker_01
I mean, we certainly see that a lot with fourth and 10th as well. Well taken.

01:28:46 Speaker_00
All right. So next example is a good one. They said Venus in the third house is really in the fourth house. And they said, I also grew up with a dad that loved road trips. And I also have a love for the open road. I live for it.

01:28:59 Speaker_00
So I thought that was such a great delineation. So a dad who loved road trips, like the fourth house of parents, the ruler of the fourth house of parents and the third house of travel. Dad Who Loves Road Trips.

01:29:10 Speaker_00
And then in turn, instills that through those early childhood experiences in the child, and it's a benefic Venus so that it's a positive experience. Although I'm sure there's other people where it's a more challenging planet and it's like,

01:29:29 Speaker_00
Are we there yet? Yeah, exactly. It's like they have a negative experience and then develop an aversion to travel as a result of their parents or something like that. But this is an interesting positive one.

01:29:41 Speaker_01
Yeah, I can attest to that. I love to eat in restaurants and somehow I'm raising a child who cannot stand eating in restaurants and I just don't know what to do.

01:29:50 Speaker_00
Okay. Yeah. All right. So next one. Ruler of the Fourth is Saturn in the third house. And they said, I realize I live close to where I grew up.

01:30:01 Speaker_00
I've been one of the few people among my peers to make my apartment, to make my permanent home in the neighborhood. So that's a great delineation as well.

01:30:11 Speaker_00
The person who grows up and then ends up living nearby, basically in the neighborhood of where they originally started in life, which I think it is striking because that doesn't happen for everybody.

01:30:26 Speaker_00
It's like, yeah, a lot of people do that, but then there's a lot of people, especially as we'll see when we get to the ninth house, who don't do that, who move and live in a completely foreign country or move to a different state or something like that.

01:30:38 Speaker_00
But to basically grow up and then set down roots nearby where you lived is kind of an interesting delineation.

01:30:48 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

01:30:50 Speaker_00
All right, next one. They said, Mars, the ruler of the fourth, which is Scorpio, in the third, in Libra, in detriment. They said, I was in seven car accidents in my home state.

01:31:02 Speaker_00
After moving away from home at age 30, I've not been in any more in 12 years now. not been in any more accidents.

01:31:09 Speaker_00
I've also tended to live in places that have very distinct cultures, vibrant neighborhoods, activity, and walkability, such as New Orleans and the Garden District.

01:31:23 Speaker_00
They said home locations have also been near transportation routes, including a streetcar line and a railroad. So that's really interesting, living next to a railroad track or something like that. That's a good one. Next. Okay.

01:31:44 Speaker_00
This one said, the fourth house is ruled by Saturn and Capricorn in the third. I was raised by my grandparents, old folks across the road from a cemetery, a Saturnian neighborhood.

01:31:57 Speaker_00
And then also my brother was given up for adoption, so I grew up as an only child. So there's a sense of aloneness or loneliness. CB Yeah.

01:32:09 Speaker_00
So that's another good example because it's just showing there can be wide degree of variations here depending on what signs are involved and what planets are involved, both in terms of the specifics and the range of manifestations, but also in terms of the subjective experience of whether that connection between those two houses is experienced as subjectively positive or as more subjectively negative.

01:32:35 Speaker_01
Yeah. Every possible combination has some other kind of twist that can be added to all the different delineations that are possible.

01:32:43 Speaker_00
That's absolutely true. Right. And I was thinking about that the other day, because then it effectively sets up where on the one hand you have a situation where it's like there's infinite possibilities, there's infinite possible combinations of things

01:32:58 Speaker_00
And yet on the other side of that, so the system is infinitely complex, but then on the other side of that, it's also not. It's also limited in some broad ways.

01:33:12 Speaker_00
that is approachable once you get the overarching system down, it's actually limited to a certain number, a certain range of broad archetypal possibilities.

01:33:25 Speaker_00
So it's both on the one hand, infinitely complex and outside of our scope as human beings to ever be able to fully comprehend the astrological system on the one hand, and on the other hand, through this, there is an approachability.

01:33:40 Speaker_00
And once you get down the way of how to think about it and how to work with it, you can approach dealing with it once you figure out the standard set of placements that do exist.

01:33:54 Speaker_01
Absolutely. Yeah. There you are, these seemingly contradictory statements. are equally true. And yeah, and these sort of seeming paradoxes are pretty common for astrologers to have to sort of process, but that's life for you. It is like that.

01:34:18 Speaker_01
So, since astrology reflects life, it reflects the fact that paradoxes exist everywhere in people's personalities or in cultures or what have you.

01:34:30 Speaker_00
CB Right, and that life is infinitely complex and different for everybody, but then at the same time that it's not and that there's things that repeat and have been repeating and dynamics in people's lives that have been repeating for ages and centuries and millennia now.

01:34:47 Speaker_00
All right, two more examples. One, this listener said they have the ruler of the fourth house and the third house

01:34:55 Speaker_00
the 4th and the 3rd, and they said, my brother followed in my father's profession, which is diplomacy, which is also relevant because the ruler of the 3rd house of siblings is in the 7th house.

01:35:09 Speaker_00
So I thought that was an interesting delineation, the brother followed in my father's profession with the ruler of the 4th house of parents and the 3rd house of siblings.

01:35:18 Speaker_00
Next, the last example, they said, fourth house Capricorn, the ruler Saturn is in the third. I was raised by my grandparents.

01:35:27 Speaker_00
So this brings it back to something we talked about at the beginning of the fourth house episode as well as in the beginning of the third house, which is this debate over whether grandparents is like a third house topic or a fourth house topics.

01:35:40 Speaker_00
we kind of came down that it could be either one, especially depending on their role in your life, but there's good symbolic reasons for it to be either a third house or a fourth house thing.

01:35:50 Speaker_00
And I did get different listener examples that were coming from both perspectives, which was actually very, very interesting.

01:35:59 Speaker_00
still open debate, but I think things like this sometimes raise the reason why I think it's more of an open discussion that grandparents can also be a third house thing and not just a fourth house thing.

01:36:13 Speaker_01
Yeah, and I believe we do have a subject coming up as well, someone raised by grandparents coming up, or at least one grandparent.

01:36:22 Speaker_00
So we can come back to that subject when the time comes. If you're really looking to deepen your studies of astrology, then check out my Hellenistic Astrology course, which is an online course in ancient astrology.

01:36:34 Speaker_00
It's perfect for beginner and intermediate students because I take people from basic concepts up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts.

01:36:43 Speaker_00
There's over 100 hours of video lectures, including monthly webinars and Q&A sessions. And at the end of the course, if you complete the final test, you'll receive a certificate of completion saying that you studied with me.

01:36:55 Speaker_00
You can find out more information at theastrologyschool.com. Alright, so let's move on and let's talk about the ruler of the 4th house in the 4th house at this point.

01:37:05 Speaker_00
There's not a ton of examples for this section, but I know people frequently ask about it when I skip over it. The reason for that is that

01:37:15 Speaker_00
When you have the ruler of the 4th house in the 4th house, it means the ruler of the 4th house is in its own sign or in its own domicile, which is just a generally favorable placement most of the time for that planet and for the topics and the signification surrounding that.

01:37:33 Speaker_00
So things tend to go a little bit better when it comes to 4th house topics, especially if it's well-situated otherwise.

01:37:41 Speaker_00
whatever the manifestation is in terms of the topics will then come more from the significations of that planet and whatever the natural significations of the planet are compared to anything else because the planet is in its own element.

01:37:55 Speaker_00
It's like a person who's in their own element or a person who's in their own house, so they're able to do more of what they want or more of what comes naturally to them. Sometimes that can give a greater sense of self-autonomy as well.

01:38:08 Speaker_00
So there can still be challenges if there's difficult aspects or other difficult things going on when it comes to the fourth house. So it's not that everything is going to be completely positive in that area.

01:38:21 Speaker_00
when a planet is in its own sign, it just tends to be more positive. And also, it will tend to import in, if it rules a second house, you have to pay attention to that because it will import the significations of that house into the fourth house.

01:38:36 Speaker_00
So we've used examples before. In part one, we talked about Justin Trudeau's chart, who is the current Prime Minister of Canada. that, where he has Virgo rising and Mercury in Sagittarius in the 4th house.

01:38:57 Speaker_00
And then the 4th house is Sagittarius, and it's ruled by Jupiter, which is in the 4th house in Sagittarius. And his father was famously long-running Prime Minister of Canada, who was hugely successful, and then Justin followed in his footsteps.

01:39:15 Speaker_00
But he otherwise had a relatively positive or supportive relationship from his father, who was a successful and powerful person, essentially, with having such a positively placed ruler of the fourth house.

01:39:31 Speaker_01
Yeah. It's interesting that it's Mercury and Jupiter in the fourth, because the whole sort of political magic of the Trudeau dynasty, if you will, is the way that they combine two sort of factional elements in the Canadian political makeup.

01:39:51 Speaker_01
Justin's father, Pierre Trudeau, his name was Pierre Elliott Trudeau, which is a very symbolic name in Quebec, because it's sort of half French and half English, which is exactly what Pierre Trudeau was.

01:40:01 Speaker_01
His father was Francophone and his mother was Anglophone. So it sort of unites these two divided factions. And then Justin You know, his father is from Quebec and his mother is from British Columbia.

01:40:18 Speaker_01
And Canada also has this very sharp East-West divide that just in his own way sort of symbolizes a reconciliation of those two factions.

01:40:28 Speaker_00
Yeah, that's what you talked about when we did the whole ruler, the ascendant thing.

01:40:34 Speaker_01
Yeah, I know I'm basically restating it, but in both cases, you can see how that's a merging of those two houses. Yeah.

01:40:41 Speaker_00
Sure. Yeah. And then another one is Dua Lipa, who has Gemini rising and Mercury in Virgo in the fourth house where it's exalted. And so Mercury is in its own sign, it's in its own exaltation.

01:41:00 Speaker_00
And I talked about in the previous episode how her home and ancestry and background is very important to her, but also her parents are very supportive. And even though they were refugees from Kosovo in the 1990s.

01:41:19 Speaker_00
She otherwise has a very supportive family and worked together with her father to set up an organization for creative arts and supporting people from their home country. which is kind of like a positive thing.

01:41:38 Speaker_00
So in her instance, again, even though there's some challenges there, it's like Saturn's opposing the Mercury and they had to flee their country originally and move to London where she spent a lot of time growing up.

01:41:52 Speaker_00
Nonetheless, there's some positive things there in terms of how that's worked out for her and her background. All right, so moving on, and I talked about her chart more extensively, so I won't dwell on it.

01:42:06 Speaker_00
Another chart is Jim Carrey, who has Saturn and Aquarius in the fourth whole sign house in a night chart along with Jupiter and Mercury.

01:42:17 Speaker_00
I used him, I went into his chart extensively in the third house episode, so I won't go into it too much here, but the thing with Jim Carrey was early on growing up in life,

01:42:30 Speaker_00
His father was a good influence, but his father lost his job at one point as an accountant or something and a job he had worked at forever.

01:42:40 Speaker_00
And then the family became homeless and they had to live in a car for a period of time or in a van for a period of time in Jim's life with the ruler of the third house of travel and the fourth house of home and living situation.

01:42:57 Speaker_00
So there's challenging things there, but then his father also, he said, was very funny.

01:43:01 Speaker_00
Jim always said that his father was the funniest person and that his father otherwise was supportive of his career and inspired Jim to be funny and entertain guests that would come over from the neighborhood, but also like

01:43:20 Speaker_00
His father and him first started taking communications classes together, and that's what led Jim eventually to get into comedy and do stand-up comedy. There's this really touching story about how at one point, before he... What was it?

01:43:42 Speaker_00
Jim wrote this check to himself of being paid, was it $10 million for a movie or something like that?

01:43:48 Speaker_01
It's some big sum of money that someone who's broke can only fantasize about.

01:43:54 Speaker_00
Yeah. did this, tried to manifest this when he first was early in Hollywood, writing himself a check on a piece of paper for $10 million for a single movie. And then eventually, over the next five years, he became wildly successful.

01:44:12 Speaker_00
And around the date to which he wrote himself that check, that imaginary check, he actually got paid that $10 million or something crazy for a single movie, which was record-breaking at the time.

01:44:24 Speaker_00
And then his father passed away not too long after that, but Jim ended up leaving the check or the symbolic check or something in his coffin or something like that, just to show that he made it and to let his dad know that he made it.

01:44:41 Speaker_00
It was kind of a touching thing. So there's challenges there because it's Saturn in a night chart. It's his most difficult planet, but there's also positive supporting things there with it being in its own domicile.

01:44:52 Speaker_00
And that was also true to a certain extent with his mother because his mother was sick a lot growing up.

01:45:00 Speaker_00
And Jim said part of his original motivation for comedy as a child was that he said, I had a sick mother and I wanted to entertain her and just distract her from it and make her feel better. So laughter was part of doing that.

01:45:14 Speaker_00
So again, it's a tricky example because we see it's Saturn in a night chart, which is his most difficult planet, but then it's also at its domicile, it's with Jupiter and there's some positive things going on at the same time.

01:45:25 Speaker_01
And let's not forget Saturn is the planet of comedy, comedy being tragedy plus timing to very Saturnian, you know, domains, if you will. I know it seems counterintuitive on the one hand, but it's absolutely true.

01:45:44 Speaker_01
The Saturn being just in the chart of someone who's very funny, you want to get a sense of where the Saturn is and where they get that comic gift from.

01:45:55 Speaker_00
I feel like there's different forms of comedy and like different... Comedy is motivated by different things, by different people. Because there's also like Venusian forms of comedy. There's like mercurial forms.

01:46:07 Speaker_00
I think Saturn can play a role, but I don't know that I would say it's the only planet of comedy necessarily.

01:46:14 Speaker_01
Okay. Well, yeah, we will differ on this then. I mean, yes, you can have Mercurial or Venusian ones, but those will be planets that interact with Saturn in a given horoscope. This is a matter for another debate.

01:46:26 Speaker_00
Yeah. I am very interested in comedy, just listening to a lot of comedy podcasts. I love listening to different comics talk about what they do and reflect on the art and the science of it and different things.

01:46:41 Speaker_00
It is really interesting to see people with different placements and how that colors their approach to comedy and different things like that.

01:46:49 Speaker_01
Yeah, very much. It's a whole study in itself is studying the astrology of comedy for sure. Sure.

01:46:55 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. So that's Jim Carrey. So those are the only examples I have because I didn't want to dwell on it. I do have some listener submissions. There's a few interesting ones. One of them says, the fourth house is ruled by my fourth house.

01:47:13 Speaker_00
and my chart ruler. So they say, I like to stay home, and it's very hard to get me out. But again, that's tricky because it's like the ruler of the Ascendant and the fourth as well, so that makes sense.

01:47:26 Speaker_00
So another one says, Pisces' fourth house ruled by Jupiter in Pisces, and my home is my favorite. I tend to get lucky with being home more than others my age. I would stay here forever with my family and with me.

01:47:41 Speaker_00
So again, that's ruler of the Ascendant, Sagittarius rising with Jupiter and Pisces. But I think that's an interesting delineation and there's something insightful there. I tend to get lucky with being home and also they could stay at home forever.

01:47:57 Speaker_00
They experience it as more subjectively positive and is like a place that they would like to be.

01:48:04 Speaker_01
Yeah. Certainly Jupiter and Pisces in the fourth, why would you want to leave? It sounds like it's about as good as it can get.

01:48:12 Speaker_00
CB Another person says, Saturn in the fourth, I found my soul home at the last part of my Saturn return.

01:48:19 Speaker_00
This is one that came in a lot in some of the submissions, especially when it was activated of a person who felt like they found their perfect home or they found their ideal place to live, which in and of itself is a form of

01:48:34 Speaker_00
getting lucky or being fortunate in terms of that planet being in its own sign, and then having that activated by transit being the awakening of that, the full awakening of that, and coming home in some sense for the first time.

01:48:50 Speaker_00
Another person says, ruler of my fourth is Jupiter who resides in the fourth. On my Jupiter return, I landed a quite abundant living situation for an amazing deal.

01:49:03 Speaker_00
Three giant rooms, blue walls with extra high ceilings, tall windows, top loft that has 180 view, including mountains and volcanoes. The whole house was extra big. It was like a three minute walk just to get to the kitchen. laughing emoji.

01:49:19 Speaker_00
I had space for my art. Roommates were all musicians. One taught music lessons at the house. Two others had recording studios. The house was also next to a church, which had live music every Sunday. I hung a prism for rainbows.

01:49:32 Speaker_00
I also had a relationship with somebody who had their Venus on my IC during that time. However, the landlord gave a no-cause eviction after the death of his father when transiting Saturn moved into Pisces.

01:49:46 Speaker_00
He also turned off the water before we moved out, so it's like they were having a very positive have a positive placement there natally, like Jupiter in its own sign in the fourth house.

01:49:58 Speaker_00
They have Jupiter transit through that sign, and then it awakens the natal promise of just having an amazing home and living situation and being incredibly fortunate there.

01:50:07 Speaker_00
But then transiting Saturn comes in and says no and shuts it off, and they lose that for a period of time.

01:50:15 Speaker_01
Yeah. Especially when it comes to Jupiter and Saturn, their transits to each other by conjunction really does have that experience of going through life where the switch is being turned on and off, so to speak. That's quite something.

01:50:32 Speaker_00
All right. Let's go to the next example. This listener said, Aquarius, fourth house ruler, south node in house,

01:50:42 Speaker_00
So there was an extreme dichotomy of being treated like the odd one out while also heavily relied upon to represent the family positively through accomplishments. I was lifted up and supported, but also made to feel like I didn't fit in.

01:50:57 Speaker_00
I don't know if this is a day or night chart and that would change things, but here we've got Saturn ruling the 4th house with the Jim Carrey chart in Aquarius, and there's positive things where they're putting a lot of

01:51:12 Speaker_00
emphasis on the native to represent the family and to be accomplished and things like that, but then they're also being treated as the odd one out or they're being treated weirdly to some extent, which is like an Aquarius or Saturn thing sometimes as well.

01:51:31 Speaker_00
Like they don't fit in, which is interesting.

01:51:33 Speaker_01
Aquarius is famous for being very involved in the abstract, but sort of less involved in the personal interaction. The Aquarius who really cares if the children of the world are eating, but if their own child is eating is maybe secondary.

01:51:54 Speaker_01
I mean, that's an exaggeration, but that kind of thing is... Yeah, how it's often characterized anyway.

01:52:00 Speaker_00
CB Yeah.

01:52:02 Speaker_00
And we talked about this in the Aquarius episode in the Zodiac Science series, but how modern astrologers in the 20th century would often conceptualize Aquarius in a Uranian context of being weird or being different or something like that in a Uranian sense.

01:52:18 Speaker_00
But then from more of a traditional astrological sense, you could also understand it as being ruled by Saturn and sometimes having

01:52:26 Speaker_00
the sense of being outcast or not fitting in as a result of being different, and there being a sense of social isolation, or sometimes even being the one who themselves actively rejects the status quo or rejects that which is seen as normal, and therefore puts themselves on the periphery of, let's say, social things or other things like that, that sometimes it's

01:52:52 Speaker_00
done volitionally by the person, and other times it's something that just happens to them, in this case where the person feels like an outcast just by default.

01:53:03 Speaker_01
Yeah, it's really something when you follow the nodes, because, you know, when it comes to interactions with families, the nodes have this really profound relationship there.

01:53:15 Speaker_01
And so if the nodes are in the 10th and 4th, there really is so much of like carrying a family baggage, along with what the houses themselves already signify. Having the nodes there just, you know, sort of doubles down on that kind of implication.

01:53:31 Speaker_01
And when I think about it, Saturn in the South Node and Aquarius in the fourth, most likely this is someone born in 1962. I think that that's the only year I can think of when Saturn and the South Node were in Aquarius.

01:53:43 Speaker_01
And a lot of people born that year come from these very sort of broken or distorted family backgrounds. It's sort of, it's one of those first years where the, you know, broken families started to sort of become more visible in the world.

01:54:02 Speaker_01
You know, they've always existed, of course, but where it really sort of started to emerge as a cultural norm, I suppose, is a way of putting it.

01:54:10 Speaker_01
So yeah, I think it's a year of a lot of sort of familial misfits, and I imagine especially so for those who have that placement in the fourth house, because that really sort of compounds the whole awkward dynamic that's already there.

01:54:26 Speaker_00
Right. Yeah, for sure. All right, so the next example, they said, Saturn in the fourth house in Aquarius by itself in a day chart. I only have two blood family ties I speak to. I have briefly contacted a few others over the course of my life.

01:54:45 Speaker_00
I went no contact with my father after he refused to respect the boundary I set. These days my home is my sacred space. I just asked a friend to move out after it became apparent that things weren't working.

01:54:57 Speaker_00
Prior to my Saturn return, home was a horrible mess in every single iteration. During my return, I started the process of moving back to Michigan after traveling for three years straight. I now intend to stay in this house for a good long while.

01:55:12 Speaker_00
We're coming up with house rules, like no drinking. I prefer minimalist decor. I really like this one because some of the Saturn personality traits start to come through, which can sometimes be a stringency to a certain extent.

01:55:30 Speaker_00
But it brings up a few different things. One of them, Saturn especially, tends to get better as you get older, especially for people with day charts, but even to some extent for people with night charts.

01:55:43 Speaker_00
This is somebody who some of this stuff was unlocked when they hit their Saturn return and afterwards. So Saturn hits that

01:55:50 Speaker_00
period of maturity, and then all of a sudden some of the potential is unlocked in this instance in terms of moving into a new chapter of their life, or the home and living situation where things are going better.

01:56:02 Speaker_01
Yeah, Saturn is about a sort of simultaneous blossoming and, you know, dying, if you will.

01:56:11 Speaker_01
And that's the whole process of aging is, yeah, certain problems become more profound, like say, you know, chronic health things that just get worse and worse, but then some things such as your sort of emotional relationship to reality and life and what have you, you know, stabilizes.

01:56:31 Speaker_01
You either become more inured to, you know what you've been doomed to suffer or or you've somehow, you know, through hard work and, and, and what have you managed to work your way out of whatever misery you existed under prior to that.

01:56:46 Speaker_01
Yeah, that's a very sort of Saturnian experience, you know, things were either sort of growing and you're getting better at something or something is fading away, you know, either something cherished or something that you're just as happy to see go.

01:57:03 Speaker_00
Yeah, and I like this example too, because especially in this section, we see when a planet's in its own sign, its natural significations come to the forefront, and the natural significations of that planet set the topics for what starts manifesting in that house even more so than

01:57:23 Speaker_00
than other placements. And one of the things about Saturn, some of its natural things, is one, it likes to say no to things or to reject things. So it's like one of the things this person had to do was they had to go no contact.

01:57:36 Speaker_00
They had to take the father out of the life and say no to him for not respecting boundaries. Yeah, setting boundaries with the parents. And then the other thing is even Saturn, they said coming up with house rules, so setting rules.

01:57:53 Speaker_00
But interestingly, it's setting sometimes no rules. They said there will be no drinking. Or another thing is Saturn tends to be more sparse or minimalistic, and they said that I prefer minimalistic core.

01:58:07 Speaker_00
So there's just so many different aspects of this where we can see Saturn in its purity. It's a pure expression of what Saturn means because it's in its own sign.

01:58:17 Speaker_00
Whereas if Saturn was in the sign of another planet, its significations would get mixed in with that planet.

01:58:23 Speaker_00
For example, Madonna has Saturn in Sagittarius in the fourth house, and she grew up in a religious household that was overly restrictive with religious rules, and then she rebelled against that when she got older.

01:58:37 Speaker_00
In this instance, it's like Saturn, the resources and the significations that it has to draw on are its own. And that's what it's like for any planet that's in its own house.

01:58:48 Speaker_00
But that's also one of the reasons I don't dwell on that a lot sometimes in this series up till now. But through some of these examples, we're getting a good glimpse of that.

01:58:58 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely. Something's just occurred to me when you mentioned the no drinking rule. In our era, people who have Saturn in Aquarius, you basically get two groups. you get the people who recently had their second Saturn return.

01:59:16 Speaker_01
Like for instance, the people born in 1962 or afterwards in 63, all those people have Saturn in Aquarius squaring Neptune in Scorpio.

01:59:27 Speaker_01
Whereas people who just had their first Saturn return, who were born in the early nineties, all those people have Saturn square Pluto in Scorpio. And so, when we're talking about a pure Saturn, I mean, I totally get what you're getting at there.

01:59:42 Speaker_01
But in some ways there's no living person who has a pure Saturn in Aquarius, because it's always reacting to one of those two outer planets, which really does have a, will modify something regarding that Saturn.

01:59:57 Speaker_01
So it's an interesting notion in that sense. So presumably this is someone who might have Saturn squared by Neptune. And so the whole no alcohol rule, yeah, is from some kind of lived experience or something of that nature.

02:00:12 Speaker_00
CB Yeah, or Pluto with the father stuff. I'm not sure. Although Saturn, Neptune square Saturn would also be a boundary issue. Not sure. But that's a great point. Yeah. It's like a planet in its own sign is going to manifest itself as purely as it can.

02:00:32 Speaker_00
But realistically, the other aspects to the planet are also going to have their say as well. Exactly. Yeah. All right. Next one. This listener said, I have Scorpio on the fourth house with Mars in the fourth as well as my son in the fourth.

02:00:53 Speaker_00
My father was in the military and my parents divorced. I think they said other stuff, but I may have clipped it because those are the two things that really stood out. It's like Mars in the fourth house, father is in the military.

02:01:10 Speaker_00
So very literal manifestation where it's like Mars is giving one of his primary significations, which is the military, but within the context of the fourth house, which is the father. But then also Mars, its nature is to sever and separate.

02:01:25 Speaker_00
So with Mars in the fourth house in this instance, it was like a separation from the parents. Yeah. All right. Holds up. All right. Fourth house. Another one said, fourth house Saturn and Capricorn in a day chart.

02:01:41 Speaker_00
My biological dad hadn't been in my life since I was a child, but I've overcome my issues around that, largely thanks to my stepdad. My mom is Capricorn rising, and my stepdad is Pisces rising, and my Saturn is tightly opposed to an exalted Jupiter.

02:01:58 Speaker_00
Also, my parents moved across the country for five years, but moved back during my Saturn return.

02:02:03 Speaker_00
So I thought it was interesting because on the one hand, you get, especially early in life, the Saturn signification in the fourth house, which is the biological father not being there, which is kind of like a negation or a rejection of one of the parents in a sense of not being in the life.

02:02:20 Speaker_00
But then with Saturn in its own sign in a day chart, there's still the one hand, the native is able to overcome their issues around that, but also that they have supportive stepfather as well as their mother being in their life as well.

02:02:38 Speaker_00
And then both of those two people come back into their life essentially during the Saturn return.

02:02:44 Speaker_01
Yeah. And Saturn signifies step-parents, if I'm not mistaken. That's how I've always read it. So yeah, holds up. Yeah.

02:02:51 Speaker_00
Totally. Yeah, Valens, although going back to the second century says that Saturn signifies the fathers of other people's children or something like that. So it's like a very ancient notion.

02:03:06 Speaker_00
All right, the next one says, Jupiter in Sagittarius in the fourth house, moving out and back with my grandmother while I was young so much that my grandmother is more like my mother. I moved a total of 32 times as a child before the age of 17.

02:03:21 Speaker_00
All the women in my mom's side of the family have key Sagittarius placements. My mom has a Sag stellium and my grandma has it with Sun and Mercury.

02:03:34 Speaker_00
So I thought it was interesting just because I wanted to include it because it brings up the grandparent issue again, and whether that's a fourth house or a third house thing. I'm curious what the aspects are.

02:03:49 Speaker_00
I don't know what the aspects are to this Jupiter in Sagittarius, but it's interesting that they had a supportive grandparent, but also as a mutable sign, there was a lot of moving around there and a lot of shifting.

02:04:02 Speaker_00
Yeah, I'd love to see the chart to sort of fill out that story. There's a lot of detail. CB Right.

02:04:08 Speaker_00
And the last one, they said, Mars, Pluto, both actually placed in the fourth house, abuse and trauma from the family, black sheep presence, but an immense willpower to transform from that and redefine myself after breaking away from my family, cycle breaker type of stuff.

02:04:26 Speaker_00
So though it's the most difficult part of my chart, it's also my favorite. They said, I'm laughing at the way I'd always addressed our family dysfunction while everyone just wanted to sweep it under the rug.

02:04:39 Speaker_00
I think that's great because there's two things there that are natural Mars significations. One of them is the last point that they made, which is like Mars is direct and Mars will say what's on its mind, even if it's something that's like

02:04:53 Speaker_00
awkward or something that other people don't want to hear. And sometimes that can be good, sometimes that can be bad, but that boldness being manifested in the family realm, basically.

02:05:07 Speaker_01
Sorry, just to interject, I think it'll always want to break with whatever the current mood is. So if everyone's papering everything over, they'll want to break from that by being very blunt and straightforward.

02:05:20 Speaker_01
But you can find instances where Mars is doing the reverse as well, where it's breaking from the discordance, if you will.

02:05:30 Speaker_00
Yeah. Well, I guess that's also the other part of their thing is that they broke away from their family because they found that it was dysfunctional or not supportive, and they wanted to break the cycle of that.

02:05:43 Speaker_00
So I think that's interesting as well with Mars in Scorpio in its own sign and that there's some power in that even though it's also an area of great difficulty. Yeah. All right. So that is that section.

02:06:07 Speaker_00
Here, I want to talk a little bit and do a subsection that I wanted to place in this area of the talk on the degree of the IC. Because we've talked about this already in the last, especially the last episode in the third house, where

02:06:21 Speaker_00
We're using whole sign houses primarily for the purpose of this series, and that's my primary approach to house division.

02:06:27 Speaker_00
But in whole sign houses, you still have to pay attention to the degree of the IC, which can float around the bottom half of the chart, and it can fall in different whole sign houses.

02:06:40 Speaker_00
And what it does is that the degree of the IC acts as a sensitive point that can import fourth house significations into whatever whole sign house it falls in.

02:06:51 Speaker_00
And then what you see is you'll see a doubling up or you'll see an overlap of fourth house significations with other significations based on what house it falls in. So we've already talked about this and shown some examples in the third house episode.

02:07:05 Speaker_00
I'll reiterate one example from earlier, but I wanted to have a little section talking about this because it's such a core, important concept as we're going through all of this. One of them is one we already did.

02:07:21 Speaker_00
So just to do a callback, for example, Arnold Schwarzenegger has the degree of the IC in Virgo at 24 degrees of Virgo in his third whole sign house of communication.

02:07:36 Speaker_00
And part of what we were talking about earlier was just him having this iconic voice and communication style as a result of his Austrian accent. that's part of where it's coming from.

02:07:48 Speaker_00
It's because he has his IC in the third house, so you're getting a doubling up of significations that relate to, on the one hand, the third house and communication, and on the other hand, the fourth house or the IC and the notion of your home and your origins and where you come from and your home country, your country of origin, essentially.

02:08:10 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely. And it's very interesting that Uranus squares the ICMC axis. Because again, this is an Austrian who went on to become governor of California. He's an American icon, despite being such a, you know, obvious foreigner.

02:08:29 Speaker_01
And that Uranus in Gemini just makes me think of like, yeah, you know, you're adopted into the American family, you know. which is arguably more true of Arnold than it is of anyone else who's moved to the US from abroad.

02:08:46 Speaker_00
Okay. Yeah. So that was my first example. Another one that I wanted to show is one that A story you had always told me about, which is a wild story, but this is the birth chart of Jack Nicholson.

02:09:03 Speaker_00
For the audio listeners, Jack Nicholson has Leo rising and the degree of the IC is at 22 degrees of Libra in the third whole sign house.

02:09:15 Speaker_00
And what's crazy about him is that he was raised thinking that his birth mother was his sister and that his birth grandmother was his mother.

02:09:26 Speaker_00
And he only found out later in life as an adult, basically, that the woman that he grew up thinking was his sister was really actually his mother. And more weirdly, that both women had actually died by the time he found this out.

02:09:44 Speaker_00
So both women basically went to their graves without telling him this.

02:09:48 Speaker_01
That's right. It was only because he had another sister alive who could confirm the story that he really found out the truth, but it all started, he was already a huge movie star.

02:09:59 Speaker_01
And it was actually, there were researchers for Time Magazine when the movie Chinatown was going to come out in 1974, by which point Jack is like 37 years old and his sister slash mother, his birth mother has been dead for over a decade.

02:10:16 Speaker_01
grandmother, who he thought was his mother's been dead for a few years already. These researchers from Time magazine who are just going into his background, they find some discrepancy and they let him know.

02:10:28 Speaker_01
And then he asks his other sister and he gets the truth. And it's such an astonishing way to find out. I mean, this is something that's happened before. This has happened many times, but to find out in this way too, it's just so peculiar.

02:10:43 Speaker_01
If he had not become a famous movie star, which really only started to happen to him when he was into his thirties, Easy Rider came out when he was 32. So, Yeah, he could have gone his whole life.

02:10:58 Speaker_01
I'm sure many people have, not knowing the truth behind their family origin this way.

02:11:06 Speaker_00
Yeah. There's other things going on with it, like the fact that the ruler of the IC in the third house is this retrograde Venus, which is conjunct the midheaven in Aries in the ninth. know, is part of that.

02:11:22 Speaker_00
So there's other specific things going on there. And that retrograde Venus is on the one hand, it's square Jupiter closely, which is that 26 Capricorn, but it's also square Pluto very closely in the 12th.

02:11:34 Speaker_00
And it's like this family secret that he only finds out later on. And at first, when the reporter told him this, he then immediately went to his surviving sister and asked her, is this true?

02:11:48 Speaker_00
And she admitted and said it was, and he was upset with her at the time that he hadn't been told this. But apparently, part of the reason is that he was born, his mother was only 17 years old when she had him.

02:12:07 Speaker_00
And so to avoid a scandal and to protect the mother's reputation, her parents And his grandparents decided to raise him as their own son, while his mother pretended to be his older sister.

02:12:21 Speaker_00
But it was partially due to the cultural context at the time, essentially, that it would have been... This is in the 1930s, 1940s, where it was like... RLF It could really ruin... It could sink a family. It was the kind of thing where...

02:12:41 Speaker_01
You know, if you lived in a town and, oh, so and such and such's daughter, you know, had a baby out of wedlock, well, then, you know, and the father owned, let's say a supermarket, well, people stopped shopping at the supermarket or, you know, like it would really, good old fashioned cancellation, you know, cancel culture has always been there.

02:12:59 Speaker_01
And that was the way it was done in those days. I was born out of wedlock. And, you know, I've heard the stories that my, you know, grandparents would hide my mom from the neighbors and things like that.

02:13:11 Speaker_01
So when she was pregnant with me, so yeah, it was something that was done right up until the 60s. I was born right at a time when it started to become normalized, I suppose.

02:13:22 Speaker_00
Yeah. So we have to understand it partially in that context, but it also brings up the thing that we talked about a lot in the last episode where the 4th house can sometimes have to do with secrets or things that are hidden.

02:13:35 Speaker_00
And that's also going to extend not just to the 4th whole sign house, but also to the degree of the IC sometimes. And one of the things that's interesting about it being this retrograde Venus that's conjunct the Midheaven is just

02:13:52 Speaker_00
he found out because he was promoting a movie and because this reporter who was writing this story about him, because he was so famous at that time, was looking into his background just to do a bio on him. And as a result of that, he finds out.

02:14:07 Speaker_00
So there's this element there with Venus conjunct the Midheaven of why it came out as a result of that, as a result of his career and his prominence or eminence.

02:14:18 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that Venus in his chart is remarkable in a number of ways. I mean, Jack is, of course, like a very iconic movie star. And I think he's a very Venus retrograde on the Midheaven kind of movie star.

02:14:34 Speaker_01
People love that he is, you know, kind of, you know, a reckless rule breaker, if you will. You know, he's... But we love to see him throw tantrums. We love to see him play terrible people or people who are having a hard time coping or what have you.

02:14:59 Speaker_01
So yeah, I think a lot of this, it spills out of his private life and it's all over his work, I think.

02:15:07 Speaker_00
Yeah. Let's see. Other things I noted, the ruler of the fourth whole sign house is Mars, which is also retrograde. So he has both rulers of his, the fourth house related things are both retrograde. It's in the fifth house of children.

02:15:23 Speaker_00
And I think there might be something there with just the fact the ruler of the fourth house of parents is a retrograde Mars in the fifth house of children. And the reason for this weird situation with his mother is because she had an early

02:15:38 Speaker_00
pregnancy out of wedlock, and therefore that's why. There might be something there as well that that's contributing to, I guess I should say as well.

02:15:48 Speaker_01
His mother basically was a child herself when she had him, as part of the story, I guess.

02:16:00 Speaker_00
he found out in 1974. And that year, the planet Uranus was closely conjoining the degree of his IC in the 3rd house. And obviously, this was a shocking revelation when it happened. And Uranus then, of course, would also be closely opposing his

02:16:18 Speaker_00
his Venus at the same time. At the same time, Neptune was conjoining his Mars, the ruler of the fourth sign, so that's also contributing something. And then finally,

02:16:31 Speaker_00
Yeah, the North Node was in Sagittarius, so eclipses were happening in the same sign as Mars that year, the ruler of his fourth whole sign house.

02:16:41 Speaker_00
Other things that I found that were interesting, Mars was transiting his third house when his biological mother died. It had just gone into the sign of Libra. And he experienced it as his sister dying at the time. This was July 31st, 1963.

02:17:00 Speaker_00
So think about how crazy that is. It's like Mars goes into the third house. What he experienced at that time is his sister passes away relatively young. But then in reality, it's like that was biologically his mother.

02:17:16 Speaker_00
Then what I thought was interesting is I looked at both charts for his mother and his grandmother, and it said his biological mother had a stellium in Scorpio, which is his fourth whole sign house, and she had nothing in Libra.

02:17:31 Speaker_00
Interestingly, his grandmother had the Moon and Jupiter in Libra, but no Scorpio placements.

02:17:39 Speaker_00
There's some kind of underlying takeaway here, and I'm not fully sure what it is, but I was workshopping one possibility, which was that the whole sign placement showed the woman that was his actual mother essentially, but the IC quadrant placement showed the woman that he experienced as his mother.

02:18:01 Speaker_00
in his life.

02:18:03 Speaker_00
So I don't know if that's a correct takeaway, but just trying to get a grasp on this thing of this combining of whole sign and more quadrant-based house systems and how to make distinctions between what each is doing, this might be an interesting chart to attempt to try to workshop that problem.

02:18:23 Speaker_01
I agree. That's a really interesting analysis.

02:18:26 Speaker_01
I would add that the thing about this particular chart is, since we're talking about a third, fourth house relationship between Venus and Mars, in this case, the fourth house being Scorpio is opposite a Venus ruled sign, and the third house being Libra is opposite a Mars ruled sign.

02:18:47 Speaker_01
So you will, there's going to be some form of blending between the third and fourth, ninth and 10th axes, if that's a word, all together, by virtue of these being, you know, those two Venus-Mars Ruled axes. So yeah, but that's an excellent point.

02:19:09 Speaker_01
It's great that we have the mother and sister's birthday, that we can look at that. Admittedly, it's a cursory kind of theory that you have, but I can appreciate immediately how it sort of fills out this story in that way.

02:19:23 Speaker_00
Yeah. So I want people to research things like that in order to develop a better understanding of that, but hopefully that'll be suggestive. All right. So my next chart example, this is the birth chart of Mary Wilson.

02:19:40 Speaker_00
And the main thing I wanted to point out about in this chart, she has Taurus rising and the IC is in Cancer in the third whole sign house. And for a period of time, she actually came to believe that her aunt was her mother.

02:19:58 Speaker_00
in her life at a certain point. I think this later turned out to be not true as far as I know, but she actually really deeply believed it for a significant part of her early life. so that it played a significant role in her biography.

02:20:13 Speaker_00
And I think there's something there with just like the icy and the third house of extended relatives, which is usually where you see aunts and uncles, in addition to the fact that the ruler of the third house itself is in the fourth house, which is the Moon and Leo.

02:20:29 Speaker_00
Yeah. So pretty straightforward. I think we might come back to her, I think, but she was an American singer and she was the founding member of the Supremes.

02:20:47 Speaker_00
I do know we'll come back to her because it's the ruler of the fourth in the 11th example, so we'll come back to her later.

02:20:57 Speaker_01
Yeah. Every great musical act of the 1960s had their Pisces who would go through some great transformation over the course of the decade. Mary Wilson is the Pisces and the Supremes. We should talk about it more sometimes. It's a really great story.

02:21:15 Speaker_00
Okay. Yeah. Let's do that when we get to the 11th house. Yeah. All right. The next one I have for this section is

02:21:24 Speaker_00
the birth chart of Pablo Picasso, who we did an extended discussion of towards the beginning of the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house section in part one.

02:21:35 Speaker_00
But I wanted to circle back to him just very briefly just because there may be something here about the fact that he has his IC in the third house, which is Libra with the planet Venus in Libra in a night chart with how

02:21:52 Speaker_00
his creative expression was tied in with his home and with his father to a certain extent.

02:21:58 Speaker_00
As we talked about in that last episode, it's like his father was also a painter and raised him and trained Picasso to be a painter early on, and his uncle actually played some role in that as well. Venus is like the ruler of the tent in the

02:22:16 Speaker_00
in the 3rd. But with the IC here, it's bringing in and importing some of the father stuff into the 3rd house here, which is his communication and creative powerhouse that he has in his chart with Venus and Libra. So I don't know.

02:22:35 Speaker_00
There's something there. I don't have a lot. It's not fully worked out, but that's what I got there.

02:22:40 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah. I mean, Picasso is great because he lived long and he's got a very detailed chronology and there's so many different sort of phases to his life. So, but that does make him a challenge to summarize, you know.

02:22:56 Speaker_01
You can mention one or two famous paintings, but that hardly scratches the surface of his real story, you know. So, yeah. I mean, the thing about Picasso is, he's a Spaniard who spent basically his whole adult life living in France.

02:23:16 Speaker_01
There is something about him that almost prefers to be a foreign element than to be in his own familiar element, let's say.

02:23:28 Speaker_00
Right. That's an interesting point. He basically lived his adult life in a neighboring country, essentially.

02:23:34 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah, you know, and we talked about earlier, I mean, he moved from his hometown when he was 10 to a part of Spain that was very unfamiliar and very culturally different.

02:23:42 Speaker_01
And that seems to set a pattern for him, even though later on, he lives close to Barcelona, which is closer to his culture, and he gets a sense of that kind of experience as well. Ultimately, as an adult, yeah, he chooses to be

02:23:56 Speaker_01
where the art is happening, he chooses to be in France. And in many ways, that's fortunate for him because that's where he is during, for instance, the Spanish Civil War, which winds up killing a lot of his countrymen.

02:24:07 Speaker_01
And he's, you know, sort of safe from that.

02:24:11 Speaker_01
And interestingly enough, he paints his famous Guernica painting because the same week that Jack Nicholson was born, that last chart we were looking at was the same week that the German bombers bombed the town of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War, and Picasso painted that painting.

02:24:27 Speaker_01
So that's just a segue between the Jack Nicholson chart and the Picasso chart that's amusing to me.

02:24:34 Speaker_00
Okay. Yeah. All right, so moving on to my next example.

02:24:41 Speaker_00
All of the ones I've shown so far have been the IC and the 3rd house examples, and it's a little bit trickier getting IC and the 5th house examples, even though I know they're out there and there's actually a lot of really interesting ones.

02:24:51 Speaker_00
But I had one really stunning one that came up in a live chart reading session with patrons earlier this year, a few months ago. I think it was in the episode titled Jupiter Transits in the Houses Live Chart Reading Workshop.

02:25:08 Speaker_00
I think it was that one, but I could be wrong. I'm actually looking through it now and I'm not seeing No, yeah, it was. It was one of the very first examples, I think, in that.

02:25:18 Speaker_00
So there was a patron and listener of the podcast who said I could use her chart again for this episode named Ola Bente, who has Capricorn rising and the degree of the IC is at two degrees of Taurus in the fifth whole sign house. And

02:25:43 Speaker_00
I asked, we talked about this a little bit within the context of the Jupiter transit and the Jupiter-Uranus conjunction that was happening at the time earlier this year in the sign of Taurus in her 5th house and how it was blending those 4th and 5th house topics with the IC there.

02:26:01 Speaker_00
And she wrote me and she said, I'd say that the biggest impact of having my IC in the 5th house is having the majority of my creative projects focused on my ancestry. and specifically her father in particular,

02:26:21 Speaker_00
So she said, last time I mentioned my current writing project where I write to my father about creative projects I've been doing in the wake of his sudden passing in late 2019.

02:26:32 Speaker_00
So she said, one of these creative projects was producing a virtual audio play recreation of a Broadway musical about a Nigerian musical artist that my father was known for writing about.

02:26:46 Speaker_00
My father's academic book on that musician's political importance was referenced for the original Broadway show, and he was invited to see it back in the early 2000s when it premiered.

02:26:58 Speaker_00
I produced the audio play version in 2021 with full support and mentorship from the original producer and sound crew.

02:27:08 Speaker_00
So she says, this was especially meaningful because my father has dramatic storytelling ancestry, and when he is hailed in what is called an oriki, or names of praise and acknowledgement given to Yoruba children, he's called the child of the mask bearers.

02:27:28 Speaker_00
My father's first degree was even in drama, and his plays were very popular and performed routinely on campus.

02:27:36 Speaker_00
So this is another very literal manifestation of the fifth house I see, especially if you see the fifth house as relevant to theater specifically. And I think that's true, especially we've seen that come up a lot in terms of creativity in theater.

02:27:49 Speaker_01
So, yeah, I'm, it's also I mean that Venus is in a mutual reception with Jupiter and Venus is conjunct the north node as I mentioned that when you get planetary contacts to the lunar nodes. These these sort of family stories family.

02:28:07 Speaker_01
what did I call it? Sort of the legacy, the baggage that gets passed down from generation to generation. You often find that in the nodes.

02:28:16 Speaker_01
So yeah, the ruler of that fifth house I see is in a very particular connection, first by virtue of the mutual reception, secondly, by conjunction to that node. So yeah, it's so interesting that it's come out in her art in this way.

02:28:33 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. And so there's a little bit left I wanted to read.

02:28:38 Speaker_00
So she also said, almost every creative project I have engaged in has this element of researching my ancestry and recreating their story or stories of their work as a way to honor them.

02:28:52 Speaker_00
In my artist statement, I think about how this kind of reflection can help future generations to heal, particularly because I've always felt a certain amount of grief being a first generation American and growing up far away from where my ancestry lived.

02:29:07 Speaker_00
For the past decade, I've focused on figuring out more about my family tree and conducting genealogical interviews with family members for our archive.

02:29:16 Speaker_00
which feels related to my fourth house, seventh house mutual reception, both in creating this archive and in doing these creative projects, importing this focus to the fifth, I'm hoping to help the next generations of my family to better manage the realities of living in the diaspora and to help them feel more grounded regardless of where they live on the planet.

02:29:40 Speaker_01
Yeah. I'm also realizing the moon and Mars are in a mutual reception. This is a pretty special chart.

02:29:47 Speaker_00
Yeah. The original submission earlier this year when we were talking about it for that Jupiter Uranus episode was

02:29:58 Speaker_00
She said, Jupiter and Taurus was transiting my fifth house, also where my IC is, and a colleague of my late father reached out about some work she was doing related to his academic work and ancestry.

02:30:11 Speaker_00
In connecting with this professor, she has ended up mentoring me on a nonfiction memoir book project that I've been working on related to my father as well.

02:30:20 Speaker_00
Venus retrograde ruling this fifth house transit and my 10th house corresponded to a tech layoff for me, which ultimately led me to have more mental space to think about and consider this project without the distraction of a career I wasn't really into.

02:30:34 Speaker_00
This Venus-Jupiter conjunction last week in Taurus corresponded to my dad's

02:30:42 Speaker_00
Last week, I corresponded to my dad's colleague, this professor, sharing my project abstract along with hers at an academic conference and my abstract being really well received.

02:30:55 Speaker_00
She said there was more excitement for my project than the other one she reached out to me about. Suddenly, I'm making plans to present my work so far at the conference next year.

02:31:07 Speaker_00
There's a lot of detail there, and we actually go into it in more detail. It's actually an even more stunning example if you listen to my interview that we did where we talked about her chart in that episode.

02:31:16 Speaker_00
So just check out episode 452 where I do Jupiter transits in the houses, live chart reading workshop for more about that. But that just gives you a glimpse of how the IC can still overlap with fifth house topics if it falls in that house.

02:31:35 Speaker_00
And that's true for whatever house the degree of the IC falls in. Yeah, so hopefully other people can share other examples of that so we can develop more data about different manifestations of the IC in different whole sign houses.

02:31:55 Speaker_00
All right, let's move on to the fifth house, the house of children, creativity. It can also be the house of sex and sexuality. So first chart example is the birth chart of Walt Disney.

02:32:11 Speaker_00
Walt Disney had Virgo rising, and I used him as an example of the ruler of the Ascendant in the third house. But for the purpose of this, I wanted to point out that he has the ruler of the fourth house in the fifth house.

02:32:28 Speaker_00
And what's notable about that is he created Disney World and Disneyland, which are physical places where kids can go in order to interact with his animated creations.

02:32:43 Speaker_00
And that's really the core of this example for me is it's like he literally created these lands that people go to, and that fourth house component of creating these large spaces was actually very important to him.

02:32:59 Speaker_01
Yep. And they're virtually like little cities. I mean, yeah, lands. They're full on sort of communities. Extraordinary.

02:33:16 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. The next example is Garry Kasparov. who has Sagittarius rising and Jupiter is ruling the Ascendant.

02:33:30 Speaker_00
It's also ruling the 4th house, which is Pisces, and it's placed in Aries in the 5th whole sign house, also conjunct the degree of the IC.

02:33:40 Speaker_00
So this is interesting because it's also a degree of the IC in the 5th house example, just like Ola Bembe's chart was.

02:33:49 Speaker_00
So with Garry Kasparov, what I think is really interesting about this is that he was a world chess champion who was the best chess player in the world for a period of time.

02:34:02 Speaker_00
But when he was the world chess champion, he actually represented first the USSR and then Russia in the period between 1985 and 2000.

02:34:14 Speaker_00
This is in a period where chess used to be really big in terms of international politics and in terms of different chess masters representing their countries and their success or failure, sometimes acting as a representation of their country and having broader political importance.

02:34:36 Speaker_00
So I thought that's such a fascinating example because it's like the fifth house can be games, like fun and games. So in this instance, it's chess.

02:34:45 Speaker_00
And we see with the ruler of the Ascendant in the fifth house that it's like his life is very much focused on for a large part of it, dedicated to a game of chess, but also

02:34:58 Speaker_00
that it's also tied in with his home and living situation and the country where he came from with this fourth house component, and that's where we get representing his country and everything else.

02:35:12 Speaker_01
Yep. Yep. It's quite a chart. And of course, you know, he's moved on from chess. He's sort of seen as a kind of alternate president of Russia, if you will, or at least spokesperson for, you know, and all that.

02:35:27 Speaker_01
So yeah, there's a lot of that that sort of comes into his biography as well.

02:35:32 Speaker_00
Yeah. So he got into politics in the 2000s, but then he had to leave Russia in 2013 for safety reasons. And the ruler of the IC is that Mars that's in the ninth house and he lives in the US now. So yeah. All right. So that was that example.

02:35:56 Speaker_00
The next example is the birth chart of Harvey Milk. And Harvey Milk has Taurus on the fourth whole sign house, and the ruler is Venus, which is in Gemini in the fifth house.

02:36:11 Speaker_00
And we also see the degree of the IC is also in Gemini in the fifth whole sign house. So part of the delineation here is that Harvey Milk is famous

02:36:23 Speaker_00
and is well known as being one of the first openly gay men elected to political office in a large urban city in the United States.

02:36:33 Speaker_00
And so part of the delineation here, I think, between the fourth and fifth house overlap is that the home and living situation and the place where he lives is tied up to some extent with the topics of sex and sexuality in his life, or in this instance, sexual orientation.

02:36:51 Speaker_00
And I think it's really interesting just because His election as mayor of San Francisco brought this- He wasn't a mayor. He was just a councilman. Sorry, I meant to say, yeah, I didn't mean to say mayor.

02:37:03 Speaker_00
I meant to say his election in a major city like San Francisco brought unprecedented visibility for the gay rights movement. And then he became this really powerful symbol of hope and change for the LGBTQ community. Yeah.

02:37:20 Speaker_01
Yeah. And well, you know, also part of the reason he became a politician came from his life as a businessman, because for a long time he owned and ran a camera store, which I think of as being a very fifth house kind of operation, if you will.

02:37:36 Speaker_01
You know, because he was a local businessman, he wound up running for city councilor. You know, it's a pretty ordinary state of, you know, trajectory of a political career. But yeah, that's the background he came from, was owning a camera store.

02:37:54 Speaker_00
Wow. Okay. Yeah, that's good. All right, so moving on, the next example is Steven Spielberg, who has Cancer rising. The 4th house is Libra, and the ruler of the 4th whole sign house is Venus, which is in Scorpio and the 5th conjunct Jupiter.

02:38:14 Speaker_00
So I have two points about this, but both of them, it has to do with this theme of his ancestry and his background and his family being tied in with his creative output, with the fifth house representing one's creativity.

02:38:31 Speaker_00
So the first one I came up with was him making Schindler's List, which was that movie about the Holocaust that he felt really push to do and really motivated to do because of his Jewish ancestry in the 1990s.

02:38:49 Speaker_00
I think this is notable because it's not just another of many movies that he made, but Steven Spielberg actually achieved more Academy Awards for Schindler's List than any of his other major movies, even his other big one, which was Saving Private Ryan.

02:39:07 Speaker_00
So for Schindler's List in 1993, he won seven Academy Awards, including Best Picture and Best Director, whereas for Saving Private Ryan in 1988, he only won five Academy Awards, including Best Director but not Best Picture, which of course famously went to Shakespeare in Love that year, which was like

02:39:28 Speaker_01
It's still seen as one of the big controversies. Before winning Schindler's List, he was kind of seen as being constantly snubbed by the Oscars. That was a sort of a trope before memes existed, if you will.

02:39:45 Speaker_01
The other thing about Schindler's List, I know that at first he was just going to produce the movie, and he actually asked Roman Polanski to direct it. Because Polanski was a literal survivor of the Warsaw ghetto.

02:39:59 Speaker_01
Polanski had been a little boy and separated from his parents and had to survive as a kid in that environment. And Polanski just didn't feel, you know, sort of psychologically prepared to do Schindler's List.

02:40:12 Speaker_01
A few years later, about a decade later, he would do The Pianist, which I guess by that point, he'd come around and he did want to do such a movie. But yeah, for Spielberg to wind up directly directing Schindler's List wasn't the immediate goal.

02:40:28 Speaker_01
So it did sort of fall on him. And I think, you know, he felt sort of like responsible, like, okay, I, you know, if Roman's not going to do it, then I guess I have to, because this movie has to be made. And so there's an element of that.

02:40:44 Speaker_01
And yeah, the fact that it got him so many awards, I mean, it's not your classic Spielberg movie when we think of Steven Spielberg, right? We think of E.T. and things of that nature. So there was obviously, there was gravitas.

02:40:58 Speaker_01
He has all this tremendous cinematic skill. So no one should have doubted that he could make such a movie, but it wasn't what he was, the kind of film that he was known for. Right.

02:41:11 Speaker_00
Yeah. Yeah, it was really powerful film. And there's so many fourth house elements there in terms of just his Jewish background and his family background and history, but also in terms of history itself, documenting history.

02:41:28 Speaker_00
We talked about a little bit in part one, I had a section talking about how sometimes the fourth house can pertain to history and can pertain to the past, and that's part of what he was doing there in terms of trying to document some of that recent history that had taken place.

02:41:45 Speaker_00
I think at the end, there's a shot of a group of Holocaust survivors that are walking together. Maybe they're visiting a place or something. I can't remember. It's been a while since I watched it.

02:41:57 Speaker_00
But there's a lot of interesting things there about ancestry and how that's tied in with his creative output.

02:42:05 Speaker_00
That was actually going to be my primary example, but then I realized two nights ago, he actually had a more recent example of this as well, which is that movie that came out in 2022 titled The Fablemans, which is a movie that was actually about his childhood and specifically about his family and his parents.

02:42:24 Speaker_00
And he revealed at one point in November 2022 that his parents had been nagging him, quote unquote, to make a film about their lives prior to their deaths.

02:42:37 Speaker_00
And I think that that didn't end up happening, because I think they passed away before it came out. But originally, this film was titled I'll Be Home, and the project was originally written by his sister, Anne Spielberg.

02:42:53 Speaker_00
So I have this quote I found from him that's really interesting related to this, where it says, quote, my life with my mom and my dad taught me a lesson, which I hope this film in small ways and parts, which is when does a young person in a family start to see his parents as human beings?

02:43:12 Speaker_00
In my case, because of what happened between the ages of seven and 18, I started to appreciate my mom and dad, not as parents, but as real people.

02:43:22 Speaker_00
I think that's a really interesting access point and how he explored that in this film with the ruler of the fourth house of parents in the fifth house of creativity.

02:43:34 Speaker_00
And in that, we see sort of an overlap to some extent with Ola Bembe's chart, where also having that connection between the fourth and the fifth and creative output related to the parents or related to the father. Yeah.

02:43:52 Speaker_00
All right, let's go into listener submissions. The next one says, the ruler of the fourth house is in the fifth house and it's Saturn.

02:44:06 Speaker_00
And they said, one of the interesting things that was seeing a direct consequence of my enjoyment and fun being things that make me estranged from my family

02:44:18 Speaker_00
And I wasn't sure, but I checked the person's profile, and the first thing they said in their profile is that they were queer. So I think that means that they're talking about in terms of their sexual orientation potentially being something that

02:44:35 Speaker_00
estranged them from their family.

02:44:39 Speaker_00
I'm not 100% if that's a correct interpretation, but I think that was what they were implying, and I thought that was an interesting and made sense as a delineation of it being Saturn ruling the fourth house of parents and the fifth house of sex and sexuality.

02:44:55 Speaker_00
All right, the next one, a listener said, Saturn in Pisces in the 5th is the ruler of my 4th house. They said, my parents were very strict, and I grew up in a very religious context and was not allowed to express my authentic self or interests.

02:45:15 Speaker_00
missed my best friend's sleepover in fifth grade because my mom was like, no, and also dating was also forbidden.

02:45:23 Speaker_00
So again, we're seeing a similar echoing theme here, and it's Pisces again, where it's like the parents are very strict, and therefore the person isn't able to express themselves

02:45:35 Speaker_00
or their hobbies, basically, which is the 5th house, are being curtailed as a result of things. And even their romantic life is being curtailed if they're not able to date, which that's also forbidden by the parents.

02:45:52 Speaker_00
So that's, again, interesting overlap between 4th and 5th house. CB Another listener has something similar.

02:46:00 Speaker_00
They said, I have Sun, Moon, and Venus in my fourth house of Virgo, and Mercury is in my fifth house conjunct Saturn, which is the ruler of my ninth. And they said, my dad had a gambling problem growing up. Gambling is also a fifth house thing.

02:46:16 Speaker_00
They said, he was also a pastor, so I had a religious upbringing that really restricted my childhood. They said no Halloween costumes, no secular TV or movies. My 9th house being Aquarius, I never drank the religious Kool-Aid, so to speak.

02:46:36 Speaker_00
We have a pretty good relationship now and both of my parents are quite involved in my kids' lives. So that's another later delineation is like parents involved in kids' lives.

02:46:46 Speaker_00
But it's interesting that the initial experience of that, again, especially early in life, Saturn tends to be a little bit more challenging. It was experienced as like a restrictiveness on

02:46:58 Speaker_00
things that would otherwise be fun or enjoyable coming from the parents. Next one, ruler of the 4th and the 5th house, and they say, I'm very similar to my parents in how I communicate, create, and the sort of things that I find joy in.

02:47:15 Speaker_00
So that's a good one, finding enjoyment in similar things as your parents. Gemini, another one says, Gemini fourth house with Mercury in my fifth house, trying to be the mother I never had, and mental health is a big theme in our house.

02:47:32 Speaker_00
I can't help but look at my kids' charts and see how I might be affecting them, or if they might move away from me when they are older, lol.

02:47:41 Speaker_00
I thought that was really interesting because this actually came up in a live chart reading session earlier this year where one of the patrons or listeners had this connection with the fifth house as well.

02:47:52 Speaker_00
In this instance, it's the ruler of the fourth and the fifth, and one of their concerns that they expressed is like, will my children live near me or will they move away and live elsewhere when they get older as being something that the person's actually actively

02:48:09 Speaker_00
thinking about as a topic. All right, three more examples. Next one, night chart. Ruler of the fourth house, which is Scorpio, is Mars in the fifth. And they said, I could literally say that my kids are my sole family.

02:48:26 Speaker_00
So that's really interesting, the family unit being exclusively essentially the children, and that's your support system and not having an other family outside of that.

02:48:38 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. That's very distinct.

02:48:41 Speaker_00
Yeah. The next one, ruler of the fourth and the fifth house, fourth house is Gemini with the sun, mercury and cancer. They said, my home is filled with musical instruments and art equipment for myself and my children. I love that. Yeah.

02:48:59 Speaker_01
Yeah. And that is a nice home.

02:49:02 Speaker_00
Yeah. It sounds like a good, good place. I mean, that's sometimes one of the nice things is the fifth house can sometimes just be about

02:49:08 Speaker_00
fun and games and creativity and enjoyment and other Venusian-type things like that, with Venus having its joy there.

02:49:15 Speaker_00
And sometimes just having the ruler of a house in one of the more positive houses can just be a generic positive delineation in and of itself, unless there's something counteracting it that's seriously turning that around. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

02:49:33 Speaker_00
It's the fun and games house. Exactly.

02:49:36 Speaker_00
If you'd like to learn more about my approach to astrology, then you should get a copy of my book titled Hellenistic Astrology, the Study of Fate and Fortune, which is available in both print and now ebook forms, where I've started selling a PDF copy of the book through my website at hellenisticastrology.com book.

02:49:54 Speaker_00
All right, let's transition to talking about the 6th house, which is the house that's usually associated with health, illness, work, and subordinates.

02:50:02 Speaker_00
This is probably one of the most solid stringing of examples that I found in the Rulers of the Houses research this time.

02:50:08 Speaker_00
I was actually so excited that I found this stringing of examples that I recorded a little preview talking about it just for patrons about a month ago when I originally did this research. So I'm doing my research.

02:50:20 Speaker_00
I got to the 6th house at this point, and I start searching my database for who has the ruler of the 4th house of parents and the 6th house.

02:50:29 Speaker_00
And one of the first ones that came up is a contemporary example that was in the news at the time, which is the birth chart of Kamala Harris. I've heard of her. Kamala Harris has Gemini rising, and

02:50:46 Speaker_00
Virgo is on the 4th whole sign house, and the ruler of the 4th house of parents is Mercury, which is in the 6th house in Scorpio.

02:50:56 Speaker_00
And what's interesting about this that I immediately remembered and recognized just based on recent biographical coverage is that her mother was a breast cancer researcher, and she served as a peer reviewer for the National Institutes of Health

02:51:16 Speaker_00
and actually made significant contributions to breast cancer research. She served on the President's Special Commission on Breast Cancer, and her research led to advancements in the knowledge of specific hormones pertaining to breast cancer. So

02:51:35 Speaker_00
Elsewhere, I read a thing that said that her work in the isolation and characterization of the progesterone receptor gene in mice changed research on the hormone responsiveness of breast tissue, and that ultimately, towards the end of her life, when she passed away, she requested that donations be made to the organization Breast Cancer Action.

02:51:59 Speaker_00
So I thought that was amazing having this connection between the fourth house of parents and the sixth house of illness, and your mother is literally somebody who researches and tries to combat a specific form of illness.

02:52:12 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. And her mother did some of that research at McGill University in Montreal, which is why for a couple of years Kamala and I went to school under the same roof. Okay. The old high school in Montreal, a school called FACE, a fine arts school.

02:52:28 Speaker_01
Nice. That's cool. Yeah. We're about four grades apart. So, you know, I would have been 11 and she would have been 15 or whatever, but yeah, there we were.

02:52:39 Speaker_00
Nice. So then I started searching my files for other examples, and then an interesting name popped up, which is Barack Obama also has that placement where he was born with Aquarius rising. Taurus is the 4th whole sign house.

02:52:54 Speaker_00
It's also the sign that contains the IC. And the ruler of the 4th house is Venus, which is placed in Cancer in the 6th house. This is really interesting for a couple of reasons.

02:53:05 Speaker_00
One, I immediately realized and I remembered that a major part of his biography is that his mother died relatively young at the age of 52 of cancer in 1995.

02:53:20 Speaker_00
Ultimately, part of the tragedy is that she didn't get to see him become president, and that's part of his life story. So

02:53:30 Speaker_00
One of the things that's important about that, though, is it's not just his experience in terms of his mother passing away of cancer, but also his experience of seeing his mother die of cancer and worry about hospital bills, and specifically being denied

02:53:48 Speaker_00
coverage due to pre-existing conditions is part of what motivated him to pursue healthcare reform as president.

02:53:56 Speaker_00
And the Affordable Care Act or Obamacare became one of his most important pieces of legislation and became sort of a signature piece of legislation that's still affecting people today.

02:54:08 Speaker_00
And I found this quote from a 2007 speech when he was running for president where he said, He said, I remember my mother, she was 52 years old when she died of ovarian cancer. And you know what she was thinking about in the last months of her life?

02:54:26 Speaker_00
She wasn't thinking about getting well. She wasn't thinking about coming to terms with her own mortality.

02:54:32 Speaker_00
She had been diagnosed just as she was transitioning between jobs, and she wasn't sure whether health insurance was going to cover medical expenses because they might consider this a pre-existing condition.

02:54:45 Speaker_00
I remember just being heartbroken, seeing her struggle through the paperwork and the medical bills and the insurance forms. So I have seen what it's like when somebody you love is suffering because of a broken healthcare system, and it's wrong.

02:55:01 Speaker_00
It's not who we are as a people. So that was in 2007. So it's like his experience seeing his mother deal with this became his motivation for that was really the first thing.

02:55:13 Speaker_00
And the main thing that they did once he became president is they used this period where they had a majority in the government to pass the Affordable Care Act.

02:55:24 Speaker_00
One of the primary things that it did, among other things, is it made it so that health insurance companies couldn't deny people based on pre-existing conditions. They couldn't deny people health coverage.

02:55:41 Speaker_00
Seeing his mother go through that was part of his personal motivating experience of that. It's interesting because on the one hand, we have a personal event that he experienced in his life, but also with this signature in his chart.

02:55:54 Speaker_00
It takes on a broader importance because then that signature in his chart ended up being part of the contribution of his life in some sense, and his life story that then affected

02:56:06 Speaker_00
millions of Americans or people in America subsequent to that, once the Affordable Care Act was passed, and companies could no longer deny people for preexisting conditions.

02:56:19 Speaker_00
That's really important and is still a major thing today, which hopefully is not taken away, but that's one of the scary things. I just thought that was such a striking example for that.

02:56:31 Speaker_01
Yeah, well, two thoughts. One related directly to that is certainly the sixth house has to do with health, especially chronic health conditions. The sixth house being, you know, a house of daily routine or daily duty.

02:56:47 Speaker_01
You know, when you've got the arthritis or you've got something that sort of, you know, it's not necessarily killing you, but just sort of dogging your day. That's a very sort of sixth house type of thing to have to cope with.

02:56:59 Speaker_01
But the sixth house is also administrative, it's organized. And so just the idea of having policy, just the idea of sort of, you know, organizing healthcare organizing anything in such a way.

02:57:14 Speaker_01
that it's not framed in chaos, that it has a direction to it and an infrastructure. These are all sort of very sixth house things.

02:57:26 Speaker_01
So it's striking to me, again, this is one of these instances, I think, where the house has this multivalence to it, where everything sort of stacks up in a very interesting, neat layer. Yeah, for sure.

02:57:39 Speaker_01
The other thing just sort of tangentially related to that, it's just striking me because I mentioned that anecdote about Kamala and then it struck me, oh yes, Barack and Kamala were both raised by single mothers whose jobs required them to live abroad for a stretch of time.

02:57:58 Speaker_01
And, yeah, I don't, you know, it's not a fully formed idea, it just occurred to me that, in particular, I guess, thinking about the, you know, the sixth house, sort of, you know, the requirements sometimes that, you know, come up for a career.

02:58:19 Speaker_00
Yeah, that's a good point. In Hellenistic astrology, in the earliest forms of astrology that used the houses, all four of the cadent houses were associated with travel, essentially. Valens says all four houses are associated with travel.

02:58:34 Speaker_00
So it's especially the 3rd house and the 9th house, but it's also the 12th and the 6th.

02:58:42 Speaker_00
When we get to, for example, the ruler of the 4th and the 12th house examples, we're going to see a number of people who ended up either living abroad or being exiled or different things like that.

02:58:53 Speaker_01
Yeah, I mean, like I said earlier, with regard to the Sixth and the Twelfth relating to time, and I think of the Sixth House being sort of very managed, regulated time, whereas the Twelfth House is sort of existing somewhere outside of time, or only in the very sort of basic night and day element of time and not sort of rigidly scheduled time.

02:59:16 Speaker_01
Yeah, all right, we'll come back to that.

02:59:18 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. So that was my second example. So then I went back to the drawing board and I started searching to see if there were any other chart examples of connecting the 4th and the 6th in the databases, basically.

02:59:32 Speaker_00
And then I found one more amazing one that really capped it off. And it's the birth chart of Michael Moore, who was born with Leo rising. The 4th house is Scorpio, which is ruled by Mars in the 6th house. of illness, which is in Capricorn.

02:59:49 Speaker_00
And it's actually in a mutual reception with Saturn, which is actually placed in Scorpio in the fourth house.

02:59:56 Speaker_00
So this is one of those examples like we were talking about before where sometimes when you see a mutual reception between the two houses, you know they're going to be closely tied together in the person's life, and you know it's going to be an important set of topics in the person's life that's going to be distinctive in some way.

03:00:12 Speaker_00
What's incredible about that is that in 2007, he created a political documentary that was titled Sicko that investigated healthcare in the United States.

03:00:24 Speaker_00
In the film, it focused on the country's health insurance and the pharmaceutical industry in particular.

03:00:31 Speaker_00
What he did is that Michael Moore compared the for-profit, non-universal US healthcare system with the non-profit universal healthcare systems of Canada, the United Kingdom, France, and Cuba.

03:00:45 Speaker_00
And really, the focus of the movie was basically about showing how bad healthcare was in the United States in 2007 compared to other countries.

03:00:55 Speaker_00
So here, it's interesting because the fourth house is representing more broadly where you're from in the sense of the country that you're from and how it deals with healthcare and how it deals with illness and

03:01:09 Speaker_00
medicine and all these other sixth house things, and how, especially in 2007, prior to the Affordable Care Act, how it was even worse in comparison to other countries that were doing better in a number of respects and different metrics when it came to healthcare.

03:01:28 Speaker_00
Even with simple things like pre-existing conditions, where So many millions of Americans couldn't get healthcare at all because of pre-existing conditions during that time. So this is before the Affordable Care Act.

03:01:39 Speaker_00
So I just thought that was an amazing third example to really round out the first two.

03:01:46 Speaker_01
It sure is. Could you put up his chart again, though? Because there's a whole other thing to his chart in his sixth house that I think we could point out. back in 1989, I went to see the very first movie he made when he was a total unknown.

03:02:00 Speaker_01
It was a movie called Roger and Me. And it was a movie about the closing of, I think at the GM plant or the Ford plant or whatever plant was in Flint, Michigan.

03:02:10 Speaker_01
It was very specifically about his hometown, and about the sort of the closing of industry in his hometown.

03:02:18 Speaker_01
So again, it was a very strong connection between sort of six house matters, matters, you know, the matters involving the unions, the workers, you know, very sort of a film full of six house themes that are not health related, but related to, again, sort of administrative and work related concerns, and also class, which is it like social class, which is another sixth house element.

03:02:42 Speaker_01
And when that movie came out in September of 1989, Saturn and Uranus were both going over that Mars moon conjunction of his and Capricorn.

03:02:54 Speaker_01
And that was really like everything that followed that he did came from the fact that he was this independent filmmaker who made this really successful documentary called Roger Me. And everything else that follows is because he got famous doing that.

03:03:08 Speaker_01
And it's another very sixth house theme movie. So it's something that you really see pop up regularly in his work right from the beginning.

03:03:15 Speaker_00
That's a really great point.

03:03:17 Speaker_00
And also that a lot of his other, even like Bowling for Columbine, for example, has scenes about Flint, Michigan, and it's like a recurring theme in his movie about the decline of this town that he's from essentially, and the problems that it's dealt with.

03:03:34 Speaker_01
Yeah, he always relates it back to Flint, very much so, all those movies. But if you know Roger and Me, then that's sort of like the whole origin story of him as a cinema phenomenon.

03:03:46 Speaker_01
Think about it, in 1989, when he comes out with Roger and Me, it's right when independent cinema is becoming this thing.

03:03:53 Speaker_01
So, in a way, he's sort of like the Quentin Tarantino of independent documentary cinema, if you will, in the sense that he becomes this phenomenon right at a time when this new stream of cultural influences is coming into the world of cinema.

03:04:09 Speaker_01
So, yeah, it was very of its time.

03:04:12 Speaker_00
Yeah. And even more recently, I think in one of his documentaries, he included stuff about the Flint water crisis where the water was poisoned several years ago.

03:04:21 Speaker_01
It's still poisoned to this day.

03:04:25 Speaker_00
By lead in the pipes or something like that. Yeah. Anyway, so that just ties together those three in a through line in those three examples that I thought was really striking and fascinating.

03:04:39 Speaker_00
So those are three of my core examples that work together here.

03:04:45 Speaker_01
Right. One last point, not to beat the Michael Moore horse to death, but he's got the sun opposite Saturn. So you know that that Saturn is quite strong when it's directly opposite the sun. And also that Mars of his is about to station retrograde.

03:04:57 Speaker_01
So not only are those two planets in mutual reception, but they're both in a strength condition as well.

03:05:04 Speaker_01
Saturn by virtue of how bright it would be opposite the sun, albeit in a diurnal chart, and then Mars by virtue of moving so slowly as it's about to station retrograde.

03:05:16 Speaker_00
CB Right, yeah. All right. The next example, to move into a completely different way that the ruler of the fourth and the sixth can manifest, that I found when I did searches

03:05:30 Speaker_00
People who had that is the birth chart of Hugh Hefner, the founder of Playboy, who had Virgo rising, Sagittarius on the fourth house with the IC there, and the ruler is Jupiter, which is placed in Aquarius in the sixth house of work.

03:05:46 Speaker_00
And what I thought was striking about that is that he literally lived where he worked. In 1971, he bought the Playboy Mansion. This wasn't just his residence, but it was also the headquarters for Playboy Enterprises.

03:06:03 Speaker_00
He ran his business from the mansion, and then it also became a central location for photo shoots and parties and other Playboy-related activities. he had other residences.

03:06:17 Speaker_00
The Playboy Mansion was where he spent most of his time and also conducted a significant portion of his business, which then blurred the lines between his work life and his personal life.

03:06:29 Speaker_00
That's actually going to be a theme that comes up a lot in the listener submissions of a number of people talking about working from home or other things like that.

03:06:39 Speaker_01
Yeah, I mean, it became kind of part of his iconography.

03:06:45 Speaker_01
I mean, the fact that he was always in his pajamas, you know, he was that committed to the, you know, not just the experience of working from home, but, you know, celebrating it as a sort of status of some kind, some kind of achievement that he could do that.

03:07:02 Speaker_01
And I guess, like, when you think about it, Playboy, the nature of the magazine is it has a fourth house

03:07:09 Speaker_01
quality to it, you know, the whole idea that it's sort of home intimate, it's, you know, yeah, it's supposed to be like the magazine that The Bachelor comes home to, you know, after a long day at work, and, you know, the advertisements for the latest stereo equipment, and, you know, all that stuff.

03:07:29 Speaker_01
Yeah. Right. I don't know. There's an element of that. Sure.

03:07:34 Speaker_00
Yeah, so work from home component.

03:07:37 Speaker_00
And then the next chart that I wanted to share is the birth chart of Frida Kahlo, who also has the ruler of the fourth house of home in the sixth house of illness, but it's much more difficultly placed where Frida Kahlo had Leo rising with Scorpio in the fourth whole sign house, and the ruler is Mars in Capricorn

03:08:02 Speaker_00
in a day chart. So Mars is contrary to the sect, which makes it the most difficult planet. It's conjunct Uranus, which is tricky, and then it's opposing her Sun and Neptune in Cancer in the 12th whole sign house very closely. And

03:08:20 Speaker_00
main takeaway from this is that as a result of an injury that she received earlier in her life, she was confined to her home a lot basically, and she was essentially stuck in bed, but then also had to do a lot of her artwork essentially from home.

03:08:38 Speaker_00
This becomes a recurring theme throughout her life, where she also explored in her artwork themes of her body as a home, but also its vulnerability. Let's see. Yeah, and there's different themes of confinement and introspection.

03:09:02 Speaker_00
Her home also as a symbol of her Mexican identity and ancestry. and her life and her art weaving together these concepts of home, illness, and injury, just being this recurring theme in her life so strikingly.

03:09:21 Speaker_01
Yeah. In fact, towards the end of her life, the one time she had an actual solo art exhibition in Mexico, it's only at the very end of her life, like a year before she died.

03:09:32 Speaker_01
And by that point, her body was in such damaged shape that she had to be carried into the exhibition in a bed. And so her supporters, her friends and family and what have you, carried her to the exhibition while she was in her bed and she was

03:09:49 Speaker_01
you know, placed in the exhibition hall, whatever, where the art was. And that's where she greeted the guests, you know, the people who came to see her art, was from this bed.

03:10:02 Speaker_01
So yeah, it's not Hugh Hefner in his pajamas, but you can see the similar sort of, it again, it becomes part of her iconography, Frieda being carried to her exhibition on the bed.

03:10:16 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. And just the difference between you know, what the planet is and what the ruling planet is and how it's situated and seeing a planet that's in much different condition than the previous example. Yeah.

03:10:29 Speaker_00
But like you said, becomes iconic because it's like her home was both a physical space and a metaphorical representation of her body and identity, and that deeply was impacted by her physical limitations and her resilience in the face of them.

03:10:46 Speaker_00
You also get some of the themes There's both good and bad themes to that as well, like the home being like a sanctuary on the one hand in some instances in her life, especially like her childhood home.

03:11:03 Speaker_00
But then there's also the home and themes of being confined there and almost experiencing it like a prison as a result of the illness and the injuries and the physical limitations. So you're getting sort of both sides of the fourth house there.

03:11:17 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah. And also, you know, that the fourth house, in the sense of the patriot, you know, Frida grew up, you know, in her earliest life was in the midst of the Mexican Revolution.

03:11:31 Speaker_01
And, you know, she and everyone she was close to, were very deeply tied to that movement, which, you know, after the fact, after the, you know, the teens and early 20s,

03:11:45 Speaker_01
was some, you know, quite disillusioning as, as post-revolution periods usually are.

03:11:51 Speaker_01
So there, there is this, this whole sort of really strong engagement in her, in her artwork and her politics and what have you, closely tied to this, you know, very recent earth shattering change in, in that it occurred in Mexico.

03:12:08 Speaker_00
Yeah, that's a great point, especially being there in the 6th house, conjunct Uranus and those revolutionary politics, especially for workers essentially.

03:12:21 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah, I'm very, very strongly committed to that cause. And of course, famously, you know, had a brief affair with Trotsky when he first arrived in Mexico in 1937.

03:12:31 Speaker_01
And, you know, he was there running away from Stalin, who would eventually catch up with him there. But yeah, they, you know, they interacted and had a little affair.

03:12:43 Speaker_00
Yeah. So, Yeah. And then those other things that we'll come back to later that we talked about in the previous one of sometimes those feelings of confinement, but also introspection that can come up with the fourth house and how that comes in there.

03:13:01 Speaker_00
Those are the chart examples. I wanted to share. Let's go to the listener submissions. So the first one I have, they said, the ruler of the fourth and the sixth house.

03:13:12 Speaker_00
One notable way is, the sickness of my parents and their care has been a major part of my life since I was a teen. So that's a major one, taking care of sick parents. And I think I had others that were submitted like that.

03:13:26 Speaker_00
Another one says, my fourth house is Pisces and Jupiter's in my sixth house in Taurus. And for many years now I've cared for my parents, and my father is 99 and healthy so it may be many more years that I'm taking care of him.

03:13:44 Speaker_00
Yeah, so taking care of parents taking care of their health. Similar one, a listener says, fourth house is Virgo, Mercury is retrograde in the sixth house, conjunct Mars and Pluto.

03:13:58 Speaker_00
My mother was chronically ill and my bio dad was an addict and died when I was 11 years old. My parents also took in a number of disabled foster children while I was growing up, and we could also never really hang on to pets.

03:14:16 Speaker_00
So that's bringing in different elements. Another listener says, the ruler of my fourth is the Sun in Libra in the sixth house, and my father has skin cancer from Sun exposure, which is definitely a literal interpretation of that placement.

03:14:33 Speaker_00
Another person says, Saturn ruling the fourth house in the sixth house, eight out of 10 years as a working adult have been spent employed by my family members.

03:14:43 Speaker_00
Today is my solar return entering a fifth house perfection year, and I'm in the process of leaving my job with my brother's company to pursue creative endeavors. So this is another

03:14:55 Speaker_00
side of things that you see when there's a connection between the fourth house of parents and the sixth house of work is that there can be a connection between work and the person's family or work and the person's parents.

03:15:08 Speaker_00
This was another major, major theme that came up in a lot of the listener submissions.

03:15:16 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely. It's duty. It's tending to the garden, all that stuff. Yeah. The daily ritual of staying alive, but it's very organized again.

03:15:34 Speaker_00
Yeah. Yeah. So one person said that they learned to work hard from their parents starting relatively early in life.

03:15:42 Speaker_00
Another person said, my ruler of the fourth is Saturn in the sixth, and my entire childhood and adolescence was spent working for my dad's construction business.

03:15:52 Speaker_00
I now can appreciate that it's given me a very strong work ethic, but back then I considered it almost as slavery. I think that's interesting. Aquarius So Sixth House Saturn, and they said, my first job was working under my grandparents.

03:16:12 Speaker_00
I did landscaping with my mother for a few years, and now I'm working at the family print shop. So home and work life have never truly been balanced. So I like that, working at the family print shop. two others to go back to the health thing.

03:16:33 Speaker_00
One person says ruler of the fourth and the sixth. Most of my health issues stem from genetics and the way I was raised, so that's important. Genetics and ancestry can be a fourth house thing. I've seen that come up sometimes in those connections.

03:16:47 Speaker_00
Another person says Ruler IV is in the sixth house in Pisces. Chronic illness runs in my family. I have many grandmothers who are nurses, and I also work from home.

03:17:01 Speaker_01
Yeah, nursing, that's a big sixth house one.

03:17:05 Speaker_00
Yeah, and just health in general, one of my favorite famous examples.

03:17:11 Speaker_01
Unless they're in surgery, then you'll see a lot of eighth house stuff if they work in the surgery theater.

03:17:18 Speaker_00
Yeah, I had a doctor as a client who had the ruler of the Ascendant in the 10th and the 6th.

03:17:23 Speaker_00
And that's one of the things about challenging houses is sometimes it's not always something you experience as an externally negative thing that happens to you, but sometimes it's just you working with people that are in a difficult position and trying to help people that are dealing with challenging things.

03:17:41 Speaker_01
Yeah, I mean, you see that in the charts of actors too, you know. I've got this really funny example of Michael Caine, it looks like he's having terrible transits.

03:17:51 Speaker_01
And yeah, he was acting in the movie Dressed to Kill, where he's literally cutting people up with a razor blade. So, you know, of course the transits look horrible. But I'm sure he was having a fine time making the movie.

03:18:04 Speaker_00
All right, the next example they say, Aquarius 4th house, the rulers Saturn and the 6th in Aries, incorporating fitness into my daily routine by working out from home, prioritizing my health in this way and taking my vitamins has allowed me to stay sober.

03:18:18 Speaker_00
I've overcome addiction and an eating disorder that I had first developed in childhood. So I think that's notable. There's probably something there, fourth house childhood and early home life and things like that.

03:18:31 Speaker_00
Another person says, in the sixth house in Scorpio, mutual receiving Virgo Mars in the fourth house through sextile, so mutual reception between fourth and sixth, I'm a Gemini rising, so Mercury is my chart ruler as well.

03:18:44 Speaker_00
All of my jobs have involved traveling to people's homes to speak with them about health. With the recent eclipse in my 10th, now I do the same thing, but I work from my house now, from home. Two more.

03:18:58 Speaker_00
The next one says ruler of the fourth and the sixth house. The first time I ever moved out from my home was to move in with two coworkers. I love that because the 6th house can sometimes be co-workers, people you work with.

03:19:12 Speaker_00
And then finally, the last one says, Ruler of the 4th is Saturn in the 6th in Aries. I come from a working-class family and region and grew up in the countryside. My father raised chickens and rabbits for most of my childhood, and my godfather

03:19:31 Speaker_00
who I was quite close with is a hunter of small port animals such as hares and grouses.

03:19:37 Speaker_00
My grandfather had a small farm with chickens and ducks, and I usually woke up either with the neighbor's goats in the morning because they were quite loud or to the rooster."

03:19:47 Speaker_00
I love that because it draws out the sixth house association with animals, which you sometimes see as a very literal thing in connection with the parents and the family.

03:19:56 Speaker_01
That's it's funny I was thinking it would come up more and, and you mentioned pets with one other example but yeah that's that's a very frequent thing, because again the sixth house is is about sort of the daily routine, and when you have domestic animals.

03:20:13 Speaker_01
You can't go on that weekend trip because they have to be fed. It's like I said, tending to the garden, making sure everything sort of stays alive, whether it's taking care of your parents or having pets or what have you. Yeah, for sure.

03:20:29 Speaker_01
I was going to say, it occurred to me after we went off Frida Kahlo, she has that, you know, 12th house, 6th house thing.

03:20:37 Speaker_01
And she kept monkeys as pets, and, you know, the Capricorn moon in the 6th, but she kept wild animals as domestic animals, which is just so her chart. So another thing that occurred to me that, you know, you see in that chart.

03:20:52 Speaker_00
Nice. Yeah. Animals come up. In the second house episode, my favorite animal example ever is Leona Helmsley, who had the ruler of the sixth house of pets and the second house of finances.

03:21:05 Speaker_00
When she died, she left her dog millions of dollars and it became the richest dog in the world. I remember that. CB Yeah, it's one of my favorite gag examples, but it's also true.

03:21:19 Speaker_00
I mean, sometimes when the sixth house is prominent, like animals become prominent, and actually we'll have another example of that later on.

03:21:27 Speaker_01
Yeah, true story about a month or two ago, I had a client and the client had Pluto in the sixth house. And at some point during the consultation, one of her dogs made a noise and she said, oh, excuse me, I have three dogs.

03:21:41 Speaker_01
And I said, are they all rescue dogs? And she said, yes. It was just seeing the Pluto in the sixth house that this would be someone whose pets would come out of some kind of life or death situation. is what occurred to me in that moment.

03:21:55 Speaker_01
So yeah, it can be as simple as that.

03:21:59 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. All right, let's transition into talking about the Seventh House now and the ruler of the Fourth in the Seventh House of relationships, partnership, and other people. So the first example I want to share, this is a more tricky one.

03:22:14 Speaker_00
When I was researching it, But it got balanced out nicely with some of the listeners' submissions, which in turn helped to balance out some of the celebrity examples that I was finding.

03:22:28 Speaker_00
The first one I want to share, this was one Lisa worked on and Lisa Scheim pointed out as being really good, which is the birth chart of Meghan Markle.

03:22:39 Speaker_00
So Meghan Markle was born with cancer rising, and the ruler of the Ascendant itself is in the fourth house. I don't remember if we talked about her in the part one and used her as an example of the fourth house, but Meghan Markle has Capricorn on the

03:22:55 Speaker_00
7th house of relationships, and the ruler of the 7th house of relationships is Saturn in the 4th house, exalted, but in a night chart, so it's actually her most difficult placement. Meghan Markle, of course,

03:23:13 Speaker_00
is noted in that she was an actress who married into the royal family when she married Prince Harry, but then they famously, over the past several years, had a lot of difficulties with that family.

03:23:30 Speaker_00
and ended up essentially leaving the family and rejecting their royal duties that they normally have as royalty, and instead going their own way and moving to a different country in order to get away from the family due to those difficulties.

03:23:49 Speaker_00
So that is an interesting example for that reason without even getting into all of the details or the different things that people have surrounding this, but just the notion of when there's a connection between the 7th and the 4th, themes of family coming up as a major topic within the context of the person's marriage.

03:24:11 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing to me, she's born five days after Charles and Diana's wedding. So she's tied into that same eclipse that really sort of follows the royal family around, which is another facet of her chart that I find interesting.

03:24:27 Speaker_01
I guess, I mean, the other thing is with, you know, that kind of IC and all those planets, down there. This is someone who also has, as I understand it, moved around a lot.

03:24:38 Speaker_01
I mean, apart from the fact that she married a foreign royal, just like the life between Canada and the US and so on and so forth. There's a lot of movement in this person's life.

03:24:53 Speaker_00
Sure. Yeah. And then one of the last things about that, so I just wanted to point out, it's just such a recurring theme, but I feel like over the past year or two, I finally fully understood planets and their exaltation.

03:25:07 Speaker_00
Whatever that planet means, it will do the highest or the best version of that, essentially, is what it will attempt to represent in the chart. In this instance, it's the ruler of the 7th house of marriage

03:25:23 Speaker_00
is a planet in its exaltation, and she literally married royalty. She married into a royal family.

03:25:37 Speaker_00
Imagine a normal default scenario is you marry somebody and they're a normal person, or they're in the same class as you, or they have the same amount of money as you, or the same job or whatever. It's completely neutral.

03:25:52 Speaker_00
But then imagine what is the highest version of that if it was instead the highest version of that, and it's literally marrying a prince, basically.

03:26:04 Speaker_01
Right. But unlike any other sort of royal spouse, she came with her own clout as an existing celebrity. Sure. I mean, Diana became this great iconic celebrity, but only because she married Prince Charles.

03:26:21 Speaker_01
She wasn't sort of headed in that direction otherwise. So yeah, I think that's another part of Meghan that's very distinct and that you see in that.

03:26:29 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. She was a famous actress and that played a role in everything else, but it's still like she married a prince and married into a royal family. And we just see that over and over again of

03:26:44 Speaker_00
delineation of exalted planets is just that whatever the highest version of that or to have the raised up version of that somehow, that's what the exalted planet will signify.

03:26:58 Speaker_00
And I'm thinking about putting together a list of examples of that to show because I've collected so many over the past year or two just to really drive that point home, but hers is a really good one. All right.

03:27:15 Speaker_00
Moving on, the next example is the birth chart of Graham Nash, and this is one that you pointed out to me that was really funny.

03:27:26 Speaker_00
Because with this example, Graham Nash is a musician and has Scorpio rising, Aquarius is on the 4th house, and the ruler is Saturn, which is in Taurus in the 7th house.

03:27:39 Speaker_00
And it's in a mutual reception with Venus, the ruler of the 7th, which is in the 4th. And the funniest thing about this is that

03:27:49 Speaker_00
He wrote the song Our House, which is like his most popular and iconic song, which was recorded with Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young. And it's like the most fourth house song that you can imagine.

03:28:03 Speaker_00
And it's said to be, quote, an ode to countercultural domestic bliss. And he wrote it about a time when he was living with Joni Mitchell, who was his girlfriend at the time.

03:28:18 Speaker_00
And the story was that the two that day spent a particularly lovely day after purchasing a vase and going back home and decorating their home.

03:28:30 Speaker_00
And then he wrote the song really quickly that day about this lovely day of domestic bliss that he had with his girlfriend and about them living together. And I thought that was really hilarious.

03:28:45 Speaker_01
Yeah. And it's especially hilarious because we know that Graham and Joanie really only lived together for a year, pretty much from the beginning of 1969 to the end of 1969, which is the year that Graham was 27. He turned 27 in February of 69.

03:29:05 Speaker_01
So he was in a fourth house perfection year. And yeah, he's got the Venus and the fourth mutual reception with Saturn in the seventh. And it's just, you know, exactly like the chart sort of sings the song itself. It writes the song and sings it.

03:29:23 Speaker_01
And it is by far, I think, his best known song. He was in a band before Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young called the Hollies, who were sort of, you know, B-level Beatles, but never as popular as CSNY. And that's definitely his most popular song with them.

03:29:41 Speaker_01
So, yeah, it speaks for itself or sings for itself, as it were.

03:29:47 Speaker_00
Yeah. And everybody should basically like

03:29:50 Speaker_00
pause this video, search the song, play it, and either you'll recognize it immediately and then laugh because you'll recognize why it's relevant, or you'll hear by listening to the lyrics for the first time why it's relevant.

03:30:06 Speaker_00
I'm going to read some of the lyrics. It's not going to be as good as the song itself, but it'll convey some things. You're not quite as good a singer as Grave Gnash, I'll give you that.

03:30:18 Speaker_00
My friend, you did not get to join me for my rendition of the Alanis Morissette, you ought to know, at the end of the Third House episode. I think you missed that, unfortunately. That is unfortunate. Yeah, this performance will not add up to that.

03:30:33 Speaker_00
All right, here are some of the lyrics I wrote down. I'll light the fire, you place the flowers in the vase that you bought today. Staring at the fire for hours and hours while I listen to you play your love songs all night long for me, only for me.

03:30:51 Speaker_00
Come to me now and rest your head for just five minutes. Everything is done, such a cozy room. The windows are illuminated by the evening sunshine through them. fiery gems for you, only for you.

03:31:05 Speaker_00
Our house is a very, very, very fine house with two cats in the yard. Life used to be so hard. Now everything is easy because of you." Yeah, so that's the song. It's funny.

03:31:17 Speaker_00
It's a mutual reception between the ruler of the fourth and the seventh, and he becomes known for that song especially.

03:31:24 Speaker_01
Yeah. And he wrote and recorded it definitely at the age of 27. Because that album Deja Vu was recorded, I think, October, November of 69. So yeah, he was still 27. Nice.

03:31:36 Speaker_00
It was a fourth house perfection here. Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. All right. Let's see, moving on. One of these is a really simple one. The next one, it just shows the privacy theme. It's the birth chart of Donald Glover.

03:31:52 Speaker_00
actor, musician, multi-talented artist. He has Pisces on the 7th house and the ruler of the 7th house of relationships is Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 4th house.

03:32:04 Speaker_00
And my main point with this one is just that he's famously been very private about his relationships, about his dating life, and about his love life, and he's very protective of his private life and things like that.

03:32:20 Speaker_00
I wanted to use that as an example just to draw out some of the privacy themes that come with the fourth house and to show that sometimes when the ruler of another house is in the fourth house, or sometimes vice versa, that it can bring this element of privacy or even secrecy to that part of the person's life.

03:32:38 Speaker_01
Yeah. And since he's got Uranus and Neptune there along with the Jupiter, I have to imagine his house is interesting and maybe it's quirky enough that those who have a peek behind the curtain have a special insight into the guy.

03:32:57 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right, next example. This is one you did. So this is the birth chart of Elizabeth Taylor, who has the ruler of the 7th house in the 4th house.

03:33:08 Speaker_00
We're using her for a couple also because we also have her as a ruler of the 9th and the 4th as well.

03:33:18 Speaker_00
So I guess we don't have to tell her entire story, but with the ruler of the 7th and the 4th, I just thought it was funny that her first marriage was to the heir of the Hilton hotel chain.

03:33:28 Speaker_00
So it's like ruler of the 7th house of relationships and the 4th house of living and staying places, and she marries the heir of a hotel. person. What else is relevant about that placement?

03:33:43 Speaker_01
Well, I mean, it was kind of a punchline. She's a woman who was married seven times to six husbands, I believe. And that first marriage coincided with the fact that she was in a movie called Father of the Bride, where her character gets married.

03:34:08 Speaker_01
I forgot.

03:34:08 Speaker_00
Okay, that was it. So she's 18 years old. She's in the seventh house perfection year when she first gets married. And that year, she's also in a movie that's titled Father of the Bride.

03:34:20 Speaker_00
which is the other manifestation of the ruler of the seventh in the fourth. It's about a man who's trying to cope with preparations for his daughter's wedding, and she plays the daughter.

03:34:31 Speaker_00
The film actually premiered 12 days after her actual first marriage to the hotel heir, And the film was also one of the top grossing films of the year.

03:34:43 Speaker_00
And it had a sequel and several adaptations, where even in the year 2000, the American Film Institute listed it as number 83 on its list of 100 comedy films.

03:34:56 Speaker_01
Right. There was a remake with Steve Martin, I think in the 80s, early 90s as well. Yeah, it was a big hit. And so her marriage to Nikki Hilton was in part a kind of Hollywood publicity thing.

03:35:11 Speaker_01
You know, not unlike what would happen with her friends, Debbie Reynolds and Eddie Fisher, who were sort of, who had a Hollywood arranged marriage.

03:35:18 Speaker_01
And of course, famously later, Elizabeth would run off with Eddie and marry him and cause this big Hollywood scandal. But yeah, you know, so it's also partly a sort of a stage thing, this marriage to Nikki Hilton.

03:35:31 Speaker_01
And, you know, before long she would divorce him and marry an older man, Michael Wilding, who, you know, she had more sort of,

03:35:40 Speaker_00
more connection with at that point in her life. CB Right.

03:35:44 Speaker_00
And I forgot that one thing that's important to point out is that the ruler of the 7th is also the ruler of the 10th house of career and publicity, and it's in the 4th house, which is normally more of a private house.

03:35:56 Speaker_00
But because the ruler of the 10th house is there, her relationships were often tied into her career and were very public.

03:36:04 Speaker_01
Yeah, you might not you're too young to remember her last marriage was in 1991 and it was, it was held at Michael Jackson's Neverland. And, you know, the, the, the attempts by the press to get photographs from this wedding.

03:36:20 Speaker_01
were crazy, like they were hiring helicopters, all this crazy footage. It was a huge to deal, you know, deal and the attempt to have privacy and the lengths they had to go to is pretty crazy.

03:36:34 Speaker_01
The other impression I get from having studied her life so closely is there is a sense that, you know, she was a very different person apart from this glamorous, you know, she's the embodiment of Hollywood glamour in one way.

03:36:48 Speaker_01
But, you know, apparently at home, she's quite a, you know, she was just sort of, quite sort of simple and homey and, you know, the facade was more so than we would have thought. She wasn't exactly the person we saw on the screen.

03:37:07 Speaker_00
Okay. Yeah. A couple of other notes that I wrote down for her is that at one point, the film tycoon Howard Hughes also wanted to marry her and offered to pay her parents a six-figure sum of money if she were to become his wife.

03:37:23 Speaker_00
So I thought that was a weird element, having the ruler of the seventh house of marriage and the fourth house of parents and somebody trying to bribe or pay a modern dowry or something, but I don't believe that happened.

03:37:38 Speaker_00
She herself believed that she could gain independence from her parents as well as from the movie studio through getting married with the 4th house, the 10th house, and the 7th house all connected there in her chart.

03:37:53 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there was an element of that. She had almost gotten married when she was 17, actually. There's a whole sort of story arc I can tell about her marriages. She almost got married in 1949 when there was a Sun Mars conjunction in Pisces.

03:38:10 Speaker_01
And you can see she has the Sun and Mars in Pisces. And then in 1964, when she married Richard Burton for the first time, Incidentally, in Montreal, married by the same minister who six years later would marry my parents.

03:38:26 Speaker_01
But when she married Richard Burton in Montreal in 1964, there was also a Sun Mars conjunction in Pisces, where they were both co-president Pisces anyway. So there's a whole, yeah, there's a whole, I could go further into her relationships with that.

03:38:38 Speaker_01
But needless to say, There was something about getting married, even before that marriage to Nikki Hilton. She seemed to be trying to pull that escape, like a teenager who really wants to get out of the house and wants to spread her wings.

03:38:55 Speaker_00
CB Yeah, that makes sense. All right. We'll return to her later because there's more interesting stuff in terms of her life. All right. The next one on my list that I researched is Dorothy Dandridge. Dorothy Dandridge has the ruler of the fourth house.

03:39:17 Speaker_00
The fourth house is Scorpio, and the ruler is Mars, which is placed in Aquarius in the seventh house. This is a more tricky one because with Dorothy, one of the things I was

03:39:31 Speaker_00
seeing in her chart and in her biography that was really difficult later on in life was that her second husband was part of the Las Vegas hospitality scene.

03:39:41 Speaker_00
He's sometimes said to have been a hotel manager, although he seems to be focused more on restaurants and clubs in Vegas.

03:39:49 Speaker_00
And I thought the restaurant component was interesting because we talked about one example of a ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth who ran a lot of different restaurants in part one.

03:40:00 Speaker_00
So the issue with this guy is that he squandered her money and basically left her in bankruptcy so that she could no longer support her home.

03:40:10 Speaker_00
She had a really nice home, and she could no longer support the care of her disabled daughter, so she had to put her daughter into a state mental institution. This is in the mid

03:40:22 Speaker_00
20th century, and she had to move into a much more modest apartment and had to get rid of basically her beautiful house in the Hollywood Hills.

03:40:33 Speaker_00
So there's something here with the ruler of the fourth and the seventh, especially it's Mars and it's more challenging placement. But in this instance, it had to do with almost giving over the foundation of your life to another person.

03:40:50 Speaker_00
sometimes that can be really not good. In her case, she has some challenging things associated with it.

03:40:57 Speaker_00
So the financial ruin caused by this forced her to cause her home and declare bankruptcy, but then even more so the stress and the emotional toll of the marriage and its aftermath likely contributed to her declining mental and physical health, and she ended up dying relatively early.

03:41:16 Speaker_00
She wasn't very old in 1965.

03:41:19 Speaker_01
Yeah. She declared bankruptcy in April of 63 and died in September of 65. So, that's two and a half years of decline, to the point where, yeah, she died very young. She was born in 22. So how old was she? That's right.

03:41:35 Speaker_01
She was like 40, still 41 when she died, or sorry, 42. She was 42 when she died. That's so young. That's like if I died in like two years from now. Yeah, exactly. Or me 14 years ago. Yeah, she married Jack Denison in June of 1959.

03:41:57 Speaker_01
And Neptune had just gone into Scorpio not long before. And so it was transiting over that Mercury and Jupiter of hers when she got married. And she has Neptune rising. So it's a an important planet in the sense of angularity for her.

03:42:16 Speaker_01
And 1959 was a year where there was a Sun-Mars-Neptune triple conjunction in late October, early November of 1959, a few months after they got married.

03:42:28 Speaker_01
And I'm pretty sure that's going to be like, if we track her transits more closely, I do have a biography, but I haven't read it yet. But

03:42:36 Speaker_01
It's a good bet that that's a period where a lot of these really fateful decisions or choices are being made with regard to her money and the eventual jeopardy to her home.

03:42:49 Speaker_00
Right. Yeah. And then with the divorce, they divorced in 1962 when Saturn was transiting through her seventh house and eclipses were also taking place there.

03:43:01 Speaker_00
And I saw that in the divorce filing, she said that she actually suffered domestic abuse from him as well. Let's see, what else?

03:43:14 Speaker_01
She was born with that Venus retrograde in Sagittarius, what I call the Red II retrograde. In 1962, the year she got divorced, there was the Red II Venus retrograde, but it was in Scorpio by that point.

03:43:26 Speaker_01
So indeed, like probably right around the time the divorce is happening, there's a Venus retrograde in Scorpio going through her fourth, as well as the Saturn in the seventh. Yeah.

03:43:40 Speaker_00
She has this incredible quote that I found where it said, quote, I threw myself away on a few men thinking I might as well have an orgasm as there isn't much else. Some people kill themselves with drink, others with overdoses, some with a gun.

03:43:56 Speaker_00
A few hurl themselves in front of trains or autos. I hurled myself in front of another white man. That was such a quote that goes really hard.

03:44:09 Speaker_00
That's a tough example, but it's something that can sometimes come up with 7th house placements with the rulers of different houses.

03:44:18 Speaker_00
Either it's a situation of getting overpowered to a partner or to other people in your life, and sometimes that can go well and it can be a thing where they help you out or they raise you up.

03:44:30 Speaker_00
other times, if there's challenges, it can be an issue where they can drag you down.

03:44:35 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah, indeed. And I'm just, I'm looking at the transits here and yeah, she married Jack Dennison when Neptune was basically conjunct her Jupiter. And then by the time she went bankrupt and died, Neptune was conjunct her sun.

03:44:49 Speaker_01
So in some ways, just this last chapter of her life, but you can see what the Neptune rising in Leo that it's almost like, you know, we were just waiting for that Neptune to come down to Scorpio for all this to unfold. Wow.

03:45:05 Speaker_00
Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah. And she was, of course, a famous American actress and singer. Yeah. And she was actually the first African-American film star to be nominated for the Academy Award for Best Actress. Yeah. All right.

03:45:24 Speaker_00
So let's move on to the next example. The other one I saw was Aretha Franklin, because she actually has a mutual reception between the 4th and the 7th. I was trying to get a handle on this one and it's a little tricky, but I think I have.

03:45:42 Speaker_00
little bit of a through line. I know you and I have debated this one, but she has this mutual reception where she has Scorpio rising, Aquarius is the fourth house, it's ruled by Saturn, which is in Taurus in the seventh house in the night chart.

03:45:58 Speaker_00
So it's like the most difficult planet in her chart is in the seventh house of relationships. conjunct Uranus.

03:46:04 Speaker_00
And the ruler of the 7th house is Venus, which is in Aquarius in the 4th house conjunct the IC, and that's the most positive planet in the chart.

03:46:12 Speaker_00
So you have this tricky thing where there's this close connection between the 4th and 7th house, but it's her most positive and her most challenging planet that are kind of doing battle there.

03:46:24 Speaker_00
And my impression of her and her biography was that she was kind of unlucky in love most of her life, but then that she finally did do all right towards the end once she met this guy named Willie Wilkerson, but that the trick was that they just never finalized it and made it official, but somehow that worked for them.

03:46:47 Speaker_00
And one of the things that was fascinating is that they met at a concert, but the reason that they hit it off is that they learned really quickly that they both had apartments in the same location, basically, in Detroit's Riverfront Towers.

03:47:02 Speaker_00
So part of the connection may have been that they became lifelong connections towards the end of her life because they lived nearby initially, and that was the initial way that they hit it off.

03:47:14 Speaker_00
But in terms of earlier in her life, there's some really challenging stuff with relationships. One of them is that in her first marriage, she suffered from domestic abuse, which created a really unstable home environment.

03:47:32 Speaker_00
There's different transits and perfections and stuff that go along with that. Because her first husband was also like her manager, basically.

03:47:42 Speaker_01
Her manager. Yeah. Yeah. And it was all sort of very public. I think we covered this basically when she was at the top of her fame in 1968, Time Magazine did this big feature on her, but they mentioned the domestic abuse.

03:47:59 Speaker_01
So it was like really kind of humiliating at the same time. And this was when Saturn was in Aries transiting through the sixth house where she has the son. And by the time it went towards when the marriage broke up. Yeah.

03:48:17 Speaker_01
So yeah, you know, just the result, 1968 was a crazy year where, you know, you know, Martin Luther King presented her with an award on stage, and then he was killed six weeks later. She sang at his funeral.

03:48:30 Speaker_01
And then a month after that, she's doing a concert in Paris while the Paris riots are going on. And then in August, she's singing at the Chicago Democratic Convention when those riots are going on.

03:48:40 Speaker_01
You know, no matter, she's sort of like the Forrest Gump of 1968 in that she just turns up at all the like, you know, important places at the important moments. And on top of it all, in the middle of all that, her marriage is falling apart.

03:48:53 Speaker_01
And this Time Magazine article sort of, you know, tells the world her business, if you will. And she becomes very mistrustful of the press after that very, very, like talk about fourth house secrecy.

03:49:06 Speaker_01
You know, she, she sort of, she, she goes on to fire all kinds of press agents over the course of the year. And, you know, sometimes just takes charge of her own publicity and, and, plants fake stories to try to manipulate the press sometimes.

03:49:19 Speaker_01
But it's very secretive about her own life after having been exposed so publicly. I think that's a big thing. So when you think about all that, it's not just that she has a husband who's

03:49:33 Speaker_01
you know, abusive, which is bad enough, and her professional career is wrapped up in his. But also just that, you know, it's humiliating to have literally the whole world, Time magazine is read everywhere.

03:49:46 Speaker_01
So, you know, for everyone to know, yeah, is a real slap for her.

03:49:52 Speaker_00
Yeah, that makes sense. So Saturn ingressed into Taurus in her 7th house in 1969, and the divorce was finalized that year. She'd been with this guy since she was 19 years old, and then the relationship ended when she turned 27 in 1969.

03:50:10 Speaker_00
So going into that 4th house perfection year with the ruler of the 7th there and the 4th,

03:50:15 Speaker_00
And one of the things I think about that is that probably at least for part of that year for her then was probably learning how to live without him and finding freedom and happiness in terms of that, but then also dealing with being alone to some extent for the first time in her adult life compared to having been in a relationship for most of it up to that point.

03:50:36 Speaker_00
So one thing that's interesting here is The ruler of the fourth is Saturn in the seventh, but Saturn is also the ruler of the third house of siblings.

03:50:44 Speaker_00
And after she broke up with that guy who was also her manager or divorced, her brother took over as her manager after she left her first husband. So that was part of her Saturn return as well, which is pretty striking.

03:51:01 Speaker_01
Yeah. Well, I mean, and really like Aretha is a great example. I sort of hinted at this earlier, like alongside the likes of Napoleon, where Aretha's story is really a family story.

03:51:13 Speaker_01
She has two sisters, indeed her brother becomes her manager and he does a good job right up until he dies, I think in 1988. But both of her sisters are really good singers as well. And you can hear them singing backup on the song Respect.

03:51:29 Speaker_01
And it's even, it's her sisters who come up with the whole Socket to Me, Socket to Me part of the arrangement. Like they really, you know, made a major contribution to the song as arrangers and what have you.

03:51:42 Speaker_01
And there's a very complicated relationship between Aretha and her sisters in terms of her becoming the big star and they struggling in their career, them helping her from time to time or being hired by her from time to time but yeah it's a fascinating dynamic in its own right.

03:51:59 Speaker_01
And then another element of that fourth house is her father is a celebrity in his own right. Her father is a very famous minister, a close associate of Martin Luther King, amongst other things.

03:52:11 Speaker_01
But someone really, I mean, who had his own sort of level of celebrity apart from Dr. King, just in his own right. And that's how Aretha became such a celebrated singer was she sang in his congregation. Okay.

03:52:30 Speaker_01
So there's a whole element to that, an extraordinary family story behind this one. She's such a towering figure of music that she's one of the, you can just use her first name and everyone knows who you're talking about.

03:52:45 Speaker_01
But yeah, really there's a whole other dynamic there. It's similar to what we were talking about when we were talking about ordinary everyday charts.

03:52:52 Speaker_01
And certainly when you're talking about third and fourth house matters, that you're getting into what's going on behind the curtain.

03:52:59 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. So the other part of her example that I wanted to emphasize that I realized about her 7th house, 4th house placements and the challenge there with Saturn.

03:53:10 Speaker_00
So her example is, it's not just about her personal life and the salaciousness or whatever of some of the stuff that she dealt with. But in 1967, she released the song Respect, and that became her signature song.

03:53:25 Speaker_00
I think that as her signature song is tied in with this mutual reception between her seventh and her fourth, because the song is essentially about asking her spouse to show her respect when he comes home, and it was released at a time that privately she was actually experiencing domestic violence basically in the home.

03:53:49 Speaker_00
There's a bunch of different pieces and interpretations of the song because it was taken in a lot of different ways, and it became a broader thing. It was originally an Otis Redding song, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

03:54:08 Speaker_00
But his version of it was more about a man wanting respect from his woman after a hard day of work or his partner or whatever. Aretha transformed it into this anthem for demanding respect and equality.

03:54:22 Speaker_00
And this shift in perspective really aligns with somebody who's seeking to assert their own needs and break free from a controlling and abusive situation.

03:54:30 Speaker_00
And I just think there's something really important and insightful about that, where again, because that song became so famous and influential, there's something about her fourth, seventh house placements that's shining through here.

03:54:43 Speaker_00
So listen to the lyrics. I'm just going to read as if it's a letter or a poem or something, but it says, all I'm asking is for a little respect when you come home, just a little bit.

03:54:57 Speaker_00
Hey baby, when you get home, mister, I'm about to give you all my money, and all I'm asking in return, honey, is to give me my propers when you get home. Start when you come home, or you might walk in and find that I'm gone.

03:55:12 Speaker_00
I gotta have a little respect.

03:55:16 Speaker_00
So obviously, that's not the entire song, but it's coming in there through that 7th house connection of marriage and partnership with the 4th house and literally the home and the living situation and this dynamic, this tension that she has with that Venus-Saturn square that's occurring there and just what she was experiencing in her personal life, but then taking that

03:55:40 Speaker_00
pain and difficulty and turning it into something that became iconic and became a song that a lot of people saw as inspiring in terms of things.

03:55:56 Speaker_01
Yeah, I mean, and it's a song that absolutely, it had these broader connotations, it could be applied to the racial struggle, it could be applied to the feminist struggle, which it certainly was.

03:56:08 Speaker_01
And, but I mean, it's actually, it's even broader than that, because that first album that she recorded in late January, early February of 1967,

03:56:18 Speaker_01
Three days after she recorded Respect, she recorded You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman, which is another song that you can see in that configuration in our chart. That is almost like a counterpoint to the song Respect.

03:56:35 Speaker_01
It was written by Carol King, who's only like a few weeks older than Aretha and has the same Venus and Aquarius, Saturn and Taurus thing, although she's Libra rising.

03:56:44 Speaker_01
And even a few days before recording Respect, about two weeks earlier, she recorded the song, I Never Loved a Man the Way I Love You, which is another one of like, like those, it's probably like her three biggest songs.

03:56:54 Speaker_01
And they're all recorded like within days of each other. And they all each in their own way, you know, lyrically and thematically. play into this thing that you're describing.

03:57:04 Speaker_00
CB Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, I don't know.

03:57:12 Speaker_00
There's mysteriousness surrounding her relationships later in life with that one guy, but I have this sense that she met him, they almost got married or at least announced they're going to get married at some point, but then didn't.

03:57:25 Speaker_00
And they just ended up not finalizing it, but somehow we're still very close for the last two or three decades of her life. And that seemed to work, having that kind of unique situation, which is perhaps tied in with Venus also being squared Uranus.

03:57:41 Speaker_00
And sometimes in relationships in that instance, just having to have a unique arrangement that wouldn't work for everybody, but sometimes that helping to make things work in some way.

03:57:52 Speaker_01
Yeah, I think that the dispute we had was that the question of whether that marriage announcement wasn't one of something that she was known to do from time to time which was to plant stories in the press because she wanted people to be talking about her at a certain time.

03:58:07 Speaker_01
But we don't know, you're absolutely right. Certainly because her siblings all pre-deceased her.

03:58:14 Speaker_01
So certainly towards the end of her life, there's even more sort of a shroud around her because even the other people that who, you know, spoke to her biographer and told her biographer, you know, things that we wouldn't otherwise know about her life.

03:58:30 Speaker_01
for that last 20 years or so of her life, we really don't have anyone to account for it in the same way. So I really don't know.

03:58:41 Speaker_00
Yeah. Well, I hope, I don't know, maybe I have an idealistic view, but I hope that that was it. And I hope she found happiness later in life, especially after dealing with difficulty early on. Yeah. All right. Let's go to some listener submissions that

03:58:57 Speaker_00
really, especially with this house, I think helped flesh things out better.

03:59:00 Speaker_00
So the first listener was a person with the ruler of the fourth in the seventh whose partner inherited a mansion from their parents, so literally inheriting a house from the partner's parents as a major thing.

03:59:17 Speaker_00
Another person says that they moved a lot due to a partner's job, and that was actually a recurring one that a bunch of people said. see.

03:59:26 Speaker_00
One of the people said, the ruler of the fourth is in the seventh, and every relationship I shared a home with my partner, we also started living together pretty fast after meeting, which is another thing that I kept hearing over and over again.

03:59:41 Speaker_00
Another person says, the ruler of my Scorpio fourth house, Mars, is in the natal seventh, every significant relocation that we have made in our lives together has been due to his work opportunities.

03:59:55 Speaker_00
So I've heard that a lot where the person moves as a result of their partner, which makes sense.

04:00:02 Speaker_00
The next one, Mercury in the seventh conjunct Venus in Sagittarius, and I just realized I have cohabitated with every partner, but I have a good experience with romantic relationships and we always make a nice eclectic home that's fun to be in.

04:00:18 Speaker_00
Another one, fourth house ruler in the seventh, and my husband's family has truly become my family. The husband's fourth house ruler is in the fourth. So he has a well-placed fourth house ruler, basically, must have a decent family.

04:00:33 Speaker_00
And then the native having the ruler of the fourth and the seventh gets fully integrated into, in a positive way, into her partner's family. That's interesting because it's like the inversion of

04:00:46 Speaker_00
the Meghan Markle example where it's like you get ostracized basically or suffer difficulties within the family and therefore end up basically leaving it. Another person says, Jupiter is the ruler of the fourth in the seventh in Gemini retrograde.

04:01:06 Speaker_00
When I turned 30 during my Gemini perfection year, I moved in with friends. So this keeps coming up in a few different examples. Another person says, fourth house Sag ruled by seventh house Pisces, Jupiter, I live with my friends.

04:01:21 Speaker_00
So one of the delineations is just ruler of the fourth and the seventh is living with other people, basically. Another person, ruler of the fourth and the seventh conjunct Venus, and I have always lived with a singular female housemate

04:01:39 Speaker_00
before roommates, now my girlfriend. Bonus, I moved in with my girlfriend when the ruler of the fourth was my time lord." Another person says, the ruler of the fourth is in the seventh house in Taurus.

04:01:56 Speaker_00
I was shown that relationships and codependence yielded stability and financial security, but not always a healthy relationship or home. that was interesting.

04:02:07 Speaker_00
Another one says, I've always been dependent on someone else for somewhere to live, usually somebody close. Right now, it's my mom. I've never had my own place.

04:02:22 Speaker_00
So that's interesting, relying on the parents, relying on other people for your living situation. Another person says, I always share a house with my partners or best friends.

04:02:33 Speaker_00
My current relationship, somehow we ended up living together after seeing each other for just half a month or so. We're doing great, surprisingly, for five years now.

04:02:41 Speaker_00
I actually found that in a few examples, people saying that they moved in quickly with their partner together. Mars rules my 4th and 9th. Mars is an Aquarius in the 7th.

04:02:53 Speaker_00
They said, I live in a multi-generational household with my in-laws who are immigrants, and there's the tie-in with the 9th. So I think that's a really interesting and unique delineation of living with the partner's parents, basically.

04:03:09 Speaker_00
So it's like the 4th house of parents and home and the ruler of that being in the 7th house of relationships and living with your in-laws. Next one, Venus in the 7th as ruler of the 4th. Despite being highly independent, I've never lived alone.

04:03:26 Speaker_00
See, they just kept coming in over and over again. And not to be excessive here, but I thought it was fascinating. Another person says, Scorpio fourth house with the ruler Mars and Aquarius in the seventh, co-present with Jupiter in a day chart.

04:03:40 Speaker_00
My husband and I enjoy doing home improvement projects together throughout 30 years of marriage and 22 years of homeownership. We have fixed signs. I think that's a good one. Doing home improvement projects together with a partner makes a lot of sense.

04:04:01 Speaker_00
And then finally, the last example I had says, ruler of the fourth and the seventh, and in a literal sense, my partner and I have been renting a home at a deeply discounted rate from my parents for the last few years.

04:04:15 Speaker_00
We both also benefit a lot from my family's connections in the area we live. In a more metaphorical sense, home to me is wherever my partner is.

04:04:27 Speaker_00
So I thought that was a great one to end with, especially that first part where they said it's like their family and specifically their parents are connected with their home and living situation. Yeah. Anyway, so that's all of the examples.

04:04:41 Speaker_00
That one was a more tricky one to work out, so I'd love to hear if anybody has examples of the ruler of the 4th and the 7th or vice versa, how that's worked out for you because I think there's other things there to explore that maybe we aren't seeing that would be worth looking into.

04:04:59 Speaker_00
All right, let's move on to the 8th house.

04:05:04 Speaker_00
So I'm going to give some positive examples first because the 8th house can be death, mortality, but it can also be things like inheritance, other people's money, the partner's finances, taxes, debt, things like that.

04:05:25 Speaker_00
So first example is Warren Buffett. He's one of the most famous investors in the world ever with Sagittarius rising probably and Jupiter exalted in Cancer in the 8th house.

04:05:40 Speaker_00
But the ruler of his 4th house is also that Jupiter, which is exalted there in Cancer in the 8th house of other people's money. And he famously got his start in investing due to his father.

04:05:52 Speaker_00
And his father's influence and early encouragement were super critical in setting him on the right path to becoming essentially one of the greatest investors of all time. And his father was a stockbroker.

04:06:05 Speaker_00
So his father encouraged his curiosity about business and investing, and he provided his son with books and resources, and even took him for a visit to the New York Stock Exchange when Warren was just 10 years old.

04:06:21 Speaker_00
At age 11, he bought his first stock, which was just three shares of a company with his father's guidance.

04:06:30 Speaker_00
His father instilled in him the importance of financial independence, but also long-term thinking, which are principles that would become cornerstones of his own investment philosophy, which he would then go into to teach lots of other people.

04:06:46 Speaker_01
It occurs to me, Warren was born in August of 1930, which one presumes he was conceived in the autumn of 1929, right when the stock market crashed. So it's kind of funny that he became who he is, considering when he was born.

04:07:04 Speaker_00
Yeah. That's actually really interesting.

04:07:06 Speaker_01
Yeah. Since he was born in Omaha and not in New York, I'm presuming his dad wasn't a stockbroker yet. I don't know. I don't know the story.

04:07:16 Speaker_00
Yeah, I'm not sure. There was one other like that. So my next example is Michael Bloomberg, who was born with cancer rising. The Moon is in Aquarius in the 8th house. He has an 8th house stellium.

04:07:31 Speaker_00
And the 4th house is Libra, which is ruled by Venus, which is in Aquarius in the 8th house. And what's interesting with him is that he was somebody that got into finance and became super wealthy

04:07:44 Speaker_00
in the financial sector, but then he ended up using this.

04:07:49 Speaker_00
He leveraged his financial success to launch a successful political career, eventually becoming a three-time mayor of New York City, which is the city where he's from, as a result of that financial success.

04:08:02 Speaker_00
So there's something there about the ruler of the fourth house of

04:08:06 Speaker_00
where you're from and where you live, the city that you live, being in the eighth house of other people's money and financial resources, and how he was able to leverage that to become mayor of a city, essentially. All right, moving on.

04:08:25 Speaker_00
The next example is to get a little bit more dark is Jim Jones, who was a cult leader. He had Capricorn Rising, and Aries is the fourth whole sign house, and it's ruled by Mars, which is placed in Leo in the eighth house.

04:08:46 Speaker_00
He famously was a cult leader who's known for leading his followers to do a mass murder-suicide on their commune. So he was this really charismatic and manipulative cult leader.

04:09:01 Speaker_00
who at first attracted a diverse following of people through these messages of what at the time were social justice and racial equality.

04:09:12 Speaker_00
But over time, his teachings became increasingly bizarre and controlling, and eventually he relocated the group from California and eventually took them all to this isolated settlement in Guyana called Jonestown in the 1970s.

04:09:30 Speaker_00
And there he fostered this climate of fear and dependency where he claimed and convinced everyone that he was a godlike figure.

04:09:40 Speaker_00
So in 1978, he was facing mounting scrutiny and he orchestrated a mass murder-suicide where over 900 people, including more than 300 children, were killed or died after ingesting cyanide-laced drink, basically.

04:09:59 Speaker_00
While some of them may have participated willingly, many were coerced or forced to drink the poison. I'm using this as an example just because

04:10:09 Speaker_00
he created a commune or an intentional living situation with this emphasis on the 4th house in his chart where he has the Moon and the North Node and Uranus and Venus and the IC there.

04:10:22 Speaker_00
But then the ruler of the 4th house of home and living situation is in the 8th house of death, and famously, he ended up having all of the people living on his commune killed basically, which is just a really tragic example and story.

04:10:40 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah. And of course, the other house ruled by Mars is the 11th, which, you know, you think of as being like, you know, the tribal house, the congregation house, and the whole Jonestown affair happened in November of 78.

04:10:56 Speaker_01
Excuse me when Venus was retrograde in Scorpio, along with the sun and Uranus.

04:11:01 Speaker_01
We were talking about Harvey milk not earlier, not long ago, and those two stories are entirely connected because one of the reasons, milk was was murdered along with Mayor musk on.

04:11:14 Speaker_01
is because the Jonestown, Jones had been a local San Francisco minister after all.

04:11:19 Speaker_01
So the Jonestown murders were big news in San Francisco, and it was taking press attention away from this case, and between this sort of city case that was going on between Harvey Milk and the man who would murder him, Dan White.

04:11:39 Speaker_01
And White was panicking that, you know, he wasn't getting the same amount of attention that the press had been giving him. So he committed the murder. So there's that whole relationship.

04:11:50 Speaker_01
Obviously, that loaded fourth house for Jim Jones is really ominous looking considering the details. Again, you know, Venus and Uranus were co-present in Scorpio when the deaths happened.

04:12:02 Speaker_01
The other thing about Jones, I guess, that's worth mentioning is he's born just a couple of days away from Marshall Applewhite, who's another cult leader who, you know, organized a mass self-deleting of this kind.

04:12:15 Speaker_01
So that's an interesting study in and of itself.

04:12:20 Speaker_00
Interesting. Okay. Yeah. My next example is the birth chart of Sharon Tate, who was born with cancer rising. Libra is the fourth whole sign house and the degree of the IC is there, conjunct Neptune.

04:12:38 Speaker_00
And the ruler of the fourth house of home and living situation is Venus, which is in Aquarius in the eighth house of death and mortality in this instance. And what happened is that

04:12:51 Speaker_00
was basically murdered by random psychos because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, essentially because she was renting a house with her partner.

04:13:01 Speaker_00
The Manson family, Charles Manson, sent the killers there because the house was owned by a music producer who had snubbed Charles Manson previously, so he sent people there to kill him. But then Sharon just happened to be there

04:13:20 Speaker_00
because her and her partner were renting the house.

04:13:22 Speaker_00
So it was this tragic case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it's specifically being tied into her living situation, the fact that they were just renting this house and being unfortunately there at the time.

04:13:36 Speaker_01
Yeah, totally random, terrible story.

04:13:39 Speaker_00
Yeah. Let's see, there's other ones. One I won't get into, but there was one example I found where somebody's father died under mysterious circumstances that had the ruler of the 4th and the 8th, and I thought that was interesting.

04:13:52 Speaker_00
One that I've commonly used is Lisa Marie Presley because she has that connection

04:14:03 Speaker_00
Between her second house of finance is an eighth house of inheritance, but also the fourth house is Scorpio, representing the father, and the ruler Mars is in Pisces, representing both the eighth house of death, but also the eighth house of inheritance.

04:14:23 Speaker_00
Her father was Elvis. So she got this very large inheritance from her father, which she inherited the day that she turned 25 and moved into a second house perfection year.

04:14:37 Speaker_00
But then later there were issues and her inheritance may have been squandered to a certain extent due to bad financial management or advice. And it's like Mars in a day chart in the eighth house.

04:14:49 Speaker_00
So it's like a squandering of one's inheritance essentially.

04:14:54 Speaker_01
Right. And yet at the same time, there's the mutual reception between Mercury and Jupiter that at least accounts for the size of the inheritance when it did exist.

04:15:07 Speaker_00
Right. Yeah. It's like she has Jupiter in a day chart in the second house of personal finances, ruling the eighth house of inheritance and having that mutual reception. So again, it's one of those mutual reception examples where you know this is a huge

04:15:22 Speaker_00
deal in the person's life, the second house and the eighth house.

04:15:26 Speaker_00
So her inheritance and inheriting this huge estate was major, and it was very beneficial for her with Jupiter in the second, but it was just that it was not without issues with Mars being there as well. All right.

04:15:43 Speaker_00
Other people that came up in my searches Sometimes there are people that lost a parent in some extreme instances. Hunter Biden was one that came up. He was born with cancer rising.

04:15:59 Speaker_00
Libra is the fourth whole sign house with Uranus placed there, and the ruler is Venus, which is in Aquarius. in the eighth Holstein house under the beams of the sun. Famously, his mother was killed suddenly in a car accident.

04:16:18 Speaker_00
He was in the car and his mother and sister were killed. Yeah, and it's just a really difficult example. There were different transits that were going on there. Uranus was transiting through his fourth house.

04:16:33 Speaker_00
Mars was squaring his Venus at the time, just a few degrees separating. And Pluto was getting ready to station in his fourth house, not far from his Uranus in the fourth at the time. So there's a lot of stuff going on there.

04:16:48 Speaker_00
But sometimes in extreme cases, there's instances of things like that. Yeah.

04:16:57 Speaker_00
There was one native, I'm going to skip and not go into for time purposes, but where their parents tried to kill them essentially in a way, and there was a theme of death in parents with a connection between the fourth and the eighth that was pretty tough for that reason.

04:17:22 Speaker_00
Then finally, the last chart example I have for this section to present something a little bit different. Here's the birth chart of Michael Avenatti. was in the news several years ago.

04:17:40 Speaker_00
He's a former attorney who's currently incarcerated in federal prison for felony fraud and extortion, including 14 years for stealing millions of dollars from clients. So

04:17:55 Speaker_00
His is interesting because he has Libra rising with Venus in Capricorn in the 4th whole sign house in a night chart, but the 4th house is ruled by this Saturn, which is placed in Taurus in the 8th house in a night chart.

04:18:11 Speaker_00
So the ruler of the 4th and the ruler of the 8th are in a mutual reception, and it's the most positive and negative planets in the chart that are locked in this kind of struggle.

04:18:22 Speaker_00
I think this example is important because it draws out a meaning of the fourth house that we talked about a little bit in part one that comes up more prominently in some ancient texts, but I think it's still sometimes relevant, which can sometimes be constraints or prisons in some instances being associated with the fourth house.

04:18:44 Speaker_00
The delineation here is basically like he's in prison for a long time for extorting other people for money, which is the 8th house element.

04:18:55 Speaker_00
The 4th house here, I think, is bringing in confinement and possible prison significations, and then the 8th house is bringing in the other people's money component. What's interesting is that his downfall started in March of 2019,

04:19:10 Speaker_00
What happened is he basically got hit by the Capricorn stellium of 2019 and 2020 that was going through his fourth house, and that's when everything pretty much unraveled and fell apart. What else? I think that's the main stuff.

04:19:30 Speaker_00
I wanted to bring that as an example just because it may be bringing an element of the fourth house that maybe we wouldn't otherwise think of.

04:19:39 Speaker_00
It's tricky because there's overlap there certainly with Saturn being the ruling planet and other things like that. It can't be taken fully conclusively, but it may point to something that's worth investigating. All right.

04:19:54 Speaker_00
Those are all the chart examples. The listener submissions see what we got.

04:20:01 Speaker_00
All right, first one, ruler of the fourth is Saturn in the eighth, and they said, I have received inheritances from family members after their passing because they had included me in their will.

04:20:14 Speaker_00
This happened when Saturn was actually transiting my fourth house. I've also had family members be my co-signers for school loans.

04:20:23 Speaker_00
I thought that was a really good one and shows that there can be positive manifestations there, even though obviously it's also taking place in the context of a negative one of the loss or the death of a family member.

04:20:36 Speaker_00
Another one says, fourth house is Cancer, the ruler is Scorpio Moon in the eighth. I inherited my grandmother's house with one of my sisters and our niece, and it was a complete shock that it was us three.

04:20:50 Speaker_00
I also found this information out when there was a full moon in my fourth house a couple of years ago. Another person says, fourth house Aquarius ruled by Saturn in the eighth and Gemini.

04:21:03 Speaker_00
My father inherited our ancestral home, which was a 200-year-old house where I was raised. My father was incarcerated after intercepting government communications for a subversive ideological organization. I don't fully understand this.

04:21:26 Speaker_00
I don't exactly know all the details or what that means, but I just think it's interesting talking about the parents inheriting the ancestral home That's such an over-the-top 4th house, 8th house mixture that that's pretty incredible.

04:21:43 Speaker_00
But then also, again, father incarcerated, there might be some 4th house element there to that sometimes coming up. How was it phrased?

04:21:58 Speaker_00
After intercepting government communications for a subversive ideological organization, so maybe it's just like the 8th house sometimes is one of those houses that doesn't see the Ascendant, and so maybe it's that again that we alluded to a little bit at the beginning of the

04:22:14 Speaker_00
episode in part one of the connection between the fourth house and secrecy and the eighth house and the 12th also having that to a certain extent. Yeah, maybe it was something that wasn't supposed to be seen or something like that.

04:22:27 Speaker_01
Right. Good grief. Doesn't anyone get arrested for unpaid parking tickets anymore?

04:22:32 Speaker_00
CB Right, exactly. All right, so the next one, ruler of the fourth is the moon in fallen Scorpio in the eighth. My mother passed away when I was 19 during an eighth house perfection year while Mars was retrograde.

04:22:47 Speaker_00
I did receive a small residual inheritance after she passed that allowed me to rent my first apartment and helped me to get on my feet. Leading up to that time though, I definitely spent a lot of time home.

04:22:59 Speaker_00
home-hopping with no real place of my own and not really feeling like I belonged anywhere. I've had to part with my belongings and start from scratch quite a few times. I'm also pretty estranged from my family.

04:23:11 Speaker_00
I think of my fourth house ruler in fall in the eighth as my orphan signature. Some of it was by choice and some by circumstance. So I've seen that before. I feel like with clients, sometimes with a crucial eighth house placement,

04:23:28 Speaker_00
in this instance, there was a negative thing that happened. Her mother passed away, but she received a small inheritance that helped her to get on her feet with a place to live as a result of that.

04:23:43 Speaker_00
I feel like I've seen that in some examples where that can happen, where it seems very relevant. It's important because it's a turning point in the person's life that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Right.

04:23:56 Speaker_00
The next one, fourth house is Sagittarius with Jupiter in the eighth. They said, the death of family members has been happening since I could remember, including being the sole witness of my grandfather's passing when I was eight years old.

04:24:09 Speaker_00
My mother and I moved constantly as I grew up, so my grandparents' house, where I witnessed my grandpa's passing, was effectively my childhood home. Another listener says, the ruler of my Sagittarius 4th house is Jupiter in Aries in the 8th.

04:24:27 Speaker_00
My 4th house, Sag Mars, has mutual reception with Jupiter, and the most successful things I wrote are fiction that are inspired by my family, particularly untimely deaths. I also work in fundraising and have worked in many historic houses.

04:24:46 Speaker_00
So that's really interesting, especially the fundraising part and working in historic houses. The next one, Taurus ruled fourth house with Venus in the eighth.

04:24:57 Speaker_00
My father was working for the IRS when he retired and was the CPA for various trusts and businesses in the family. I also have the Sun and Saturn in the eighth. My mother was really into all things occult, which influenced me.

04:25:12 Speaker_00
I've also received a lot of financial support from parents and grandparents with debt, tuition, and medical bills. So I think that's incredible as one delineation. It's like ruler of the fourth.

04:25:23 Speaker_01
It's another one of those stacked ones, yeah.

04:25:26 Speaker_00
Yeah. But also a new version of that, which is something I do see commonly, like ruler of the fourth and the eighth. And it's like the father essentially is an accountant basically working with other people's money. Yeah. So that's good.

04:25:40 Speaker_00
The next one, the ruler of the fourth is Mercury and the eighth. I do a lot of ancestral research. The last one is, they say, this is a pretty mundane transit example, but the ruler of my fourth house, the Moon, is placed in the eighth.

04:25:58 Speaker_00
Two years ago, when both the Sun and the Moon were transiting my eighth house, I closed on my first home with my husband after a long, long search. The Sun was actually

04:26:10 Speaker_00
an exact conjunction to my natal moon the day that we signed all the paperwork, received the keys, and spent our first night in our new home." I thought that was really cool and really a nice example to round things out with. Yeah.

04:26:27 Speaker_00
After all that sex and death. Right. I don't think there was that much sex, but there was a lot of death. There's not enough sex and there's always too much death. So there you go. That's true. People do have been saying that for ages. All right.

04:26:45 Speaker_00
That's the eighth house. There's other aspects of the eighth house besides some of those topics, but that at least gives you some insight into some different ways it can manifest.

04:26:56 Speaker_00
I did want to say that there can be much more constructive manifestations of the 8th house, and we've seen some glimpses of that here. We'll try to show some more once we get to the 8th house episode where we'll explore that house further.

04:27:08 Speaker_00
So I don't want people to freak out because there's also lots of different mitigations that can help turn difficult house placements into more positive or constructive manifestations.

04:27:20 Speaker_00
So that's always good to remember, and we'll explore that more when we get to that house. You better believe it.

04:27:27 Speaker_01
Yeah, there's a lot of very strong, positive eighth house charts out there.

04:27:32 Speaker_00
CB The astrology software that we use on the Astrology Podcast is called Solar Fire for Windows, and you can get a 15% discount on the software by using the promo code AP15 when you purchase it through alabe.com.

04:27:48 Speaker_00
For Mac users, we recommend the program AstroGold for macOS, and you can also get a 15% discount when you use the promo code astropodcast15 at the website astrogold.io. We're back. Let's transition to talking about the 9th house now.

04:28:07 Speaker_00
The first chart example I wanted to share is one that I share in my courses that I love. It's the birth chart of the astrologer Reinhold Eberton, who was a famous astrologer that founded the School of Cosmobiology.

04:28:24 Speaker_00
But what's interesting is he actually learned astrology from his mother, who was a famous astrologer years before he ever got into astrology.

04:28:33 Speaker_00
So he was born with Capricorn rising, the fourth house is Aries, and the ruler of the fourth house is Mars, which is placed in the ninth house, which is the house that's associated with astrology and divination.

04:28:45 Speaker_00
So his mother was actually a famous astrologer who predicted the rise of Hitler basically in Germany in the 1920s and 30s, and he learned astrology from her. So that's it with that example. The next one is one you can help me explain.

04:29:06 Speaker_00
It's one of your examples, which is Elizabeth Taylor, who has the ruler of the 4th house. So Pisces on the 4th house, and the ruler of the 4th house is Jupiter in the 9th, and the ruler of the 9th is the Sun in Pisces.

04:29:21 Speaker_00
So she has a mutual reception between her 4th and her 9th houses, and this actually plays a super significant role in her life.

04:29:30 Speaker_01
Yeah. So she's born to American parents, but her, her father is an art dealer and they're based in London. So her early childhood is actually spent in England. And her dad had a friend, a male friend.

04:29:48 Speaker_01
And so people speculate as to the reality of that relationship, but this friend was, a member of parliament and fairly wealthy, and he had a house in the country that had horses.

04:29:59 Speaker_01
And so he would invite Elizabeth's parents and Elizabeth herself for weekends at this house, and she would get to ride horses. And, you know, she came to be really good at it and really loved it.

04:30:15 Speaker_01
So then move ahead to the early 1940s, her family moves back to America before the war, because they can tell the worst coming.

04:30:22 Speaker_01
And they're living in California and Elizabeth starts auditioning for movie roles and she gets little breaks here and there, but the real big break comes when she's, I think 12, or 11 or 12.

04:30:38 Speaker_01
And there's a movie called National Velvet that they want to film. And they need an actress about her age who can speak in a British accent and who can ride a horse. So naturally she's just, she's perfect. She's lived all her life for this role.

04:30:57 Speaker_01
So she gets the role and she's really great in it. And it makes her a sort of a higher tier movie actress and her career keeps going up from there.

04:31:08 Speaker_01
But it's really, she's in Lassie and then as she matures into a teenager and she gets more sort of romantic roles and a great film career, just sort of, you know, tumbles out of that.

04:31:22 Speaker_01
But yeah, this origin story of hers, the fact that she's sort of, I mean, it's so Elizabeth Taylor, it's so Pisces in a way that she's, you know, part American, part English, in a sense, where she can certainly move between both those worlds.

04:31:37 Speaker_01
I often joke because Elizabeth Taylor was born the day before Johnny Cash and both Elizabeth Taylor and Johnny Cash were the kind of people who could just be friends with anyone. Elizabeth Taylor was friends with Ronald Reagan and Michael Jackson.

04:31:51 Speaker_01
Johnny Cash was friends with, you know, Billy Graham and Bob Dylan. They're those kinds of people and they both have that sort of mutual reception, although different rising signs, but yeah, you know, you can, you definitely see it in her.

04:32:04 Speaker_00
CB Right.

04:32:04 Speaker_00
I'm glad you mentioned that because that's an important element in ancient astrology that's still really true today, which is that anytime you see mutable signs and there's a heavy emphasis there, they always indicate two of whatever they indicate

04:32:21 Speaker_00
And so for her, that's the fact that she was a dual British and American citizen, basically. She had dual citizenship.

04:32:29 Speaker_00
And we saw something similar actually with Dua Lipa, who also had dual citizenship in her family's native country as well as British citizenship. And you were also talking about that earlier in terms of Trudeau, I think, right?

04:32:47 Speaker_01
Yeah. And also to some extent, Jimi Hendrix, who did... I'm not even sure if Elizabeth was a dual citizen, but she lived many, many years in England. I don't know if she also had an English passport, but it amounts to the same thing.

04:33:02 Speaker_01
have it written down that she had dual British and American citizenship. Okay, so at some point she did, I guess.

04:33:09 Speaker_01
But yeah, I mean, even someone like Jimi Hendrix, who didn't become a British citizen, but lived there for a considerable amount of time and also had his own sort of, you know, bi-coastal life, if you will.

04:33:23 Speaker_01
So, you know, in that sense, it certainly plays out.

04:33:26 Speaker_00
That's really funny because know, we always laugh about how Joe Biden's chart is similar because he's born so close to Jimi Hendrix with the same rising sign. So he also has immutable fourth house.

04:33:39 Speaker_00
And at first I was like, well, that doesn't really apply there. But then it made me remember how when Biden was a senator for all those years, he would go into DC to work, but then he would take the train home every

04:33:51 Speaker_00
weekend or every night or whatever it was in order to visit his family because family was really important to him. And because his wife had been killed in a car accident, he wanted to be there while his kids were growing up to support them.

04:34:05 Speaker_00
So you kind of do get a similar thing where it's like he spends a lot of time in Washington, but also then commutes home constantly to Delaware.

04:34:15 Speaker_01
Yeah, it's a smaller scale thing, but it's still, you know, really important.

04:34:19 Speaker_01
And I think there's also the fact like he's born in Pennsylvania, but you know, so he's like the kid from Scranton, but then he lives in Delaware, like even the Pennsylvania-Delaware thing is kind of a, you know, it's not bi-coastal, but you know, another element of like living in two different worlds.

04:34:36 Speaker_00
Right. Yeah. And we looked at Hendrix's chart in the last episode because of the 27 club and him being in that fourth house perfection here when he died, activating Pisces. So there's Hendrix's chart with Pisces on the fourth house.

04:34:52 Speaker_00
And then there's Biden's chart, which is also Sagittarius rising with Pisces on the fourth house, born the same month, basically, as Jimi Hendrix. That's also what's always crazy. If Jimi Hendrix was still alive, he'd be Joe Biden's age. Yeah. All right.

04:35:15 Speaker_00
Back to Elizabeth Taylor. The main thing about her example is just that she was born in London to American parents. She had an early international relocation, and this early relocation shaped her identity and worldview.

04:35:39 Speaker_00
She held dual British and American citizenship. She lived in London while she was young, so she grew up in that context, but then eventually moved back to the US due to World War II and was raised there. So there's this

04:35:53 Speaker_00
dual notion of, on the one hand, being from America and having American parents and being born in a foreign country, but then being born in London and growing up there initially and then coming and living in the US.

04:36:07 Speaker_00
So that's the ruler of the fourth and the ninth and mutual reception between those two. And we'll hear a lot of that actually.

04:36:16 Speaker_00
It's actually very common when there's fourth house, ninth house connections is living abroad when we get to some of the other examples, especially by listeners.

04:36:28 Speaker_00
The next one is Dwayne Johnson, who is also more commonly known by his wrestler nickname, The Rock. Libra Rising, Capricorn Fourth House, and the ruler of the What is it?

04:36:46 Speaker_00
It's the ruler of the fourth house of parents and ancestry is placed in the ninth house of foreign travel and foreign places.

04:36:54 Speaker_00
And he was born in the US, but he's often noted, and it plays a major part of his story, his foreign ancestry, where on his mother's side, his mother was Samoan, and he's a descendant of a major renowned Samoan

04:37:13 Speaker_00
family that was like a wrestling dynasty, and this connects him with the lineage of other wrestling legends on his mother's side.

04:37:23 Speaker_00
And then interestingly, on his father's side, his father was Rocky Johnson, who was a Black Nova Scotian with roots that traced back to Black loyalists who escaped to Canada after the American Revolutionary War.

04:37:41 Speaker_00
So what's interesting about Dwayne Johnson is that a large part of his story has been embracing his ancestry and often incorporating elements of his heritage into his roles in public appearances.

04:37:53 Speaker_00
So I thought that was really cool and just a connection there between the fourth and the ninth. Yeah, absolutely. All right. The next one is the birth chart of C.N. Proctor. This was found by Lindsay Turner.

04:38:10 Speaker_00
So this is an example Lindsay Turner found who was helping me to research and doing the write-up on this one. So the connection here is CN had Capricorn rising, Virgo 9th house. The ruler of the 9th house is Mercury, which is placed in the 4th.

04:38:30 Speaker_00
And part of what I like about this is So they're relevant more recently. They gained greater recognition in 2021 when she became the first African-American woman to pilot a spacecraft during an orbital mission.

04:38:54 Speaker_00
But what's interesting about that is that her father actually worked for NASA during the Apollo missions with that connection between the 4th house of parents and the 9th house of long-distance travel. That's one of the points that Lindsay made.

04:39:10 Speaker_00
One of the things that I thought was really interesting is with the ruler of the 9th house of education and study in the fourth house, which can represent the Earth, her primary background actually is that her PhD is in geology.

04:39:31 Speaker_00
So she's a geology professor was the point of this example that I thought was really interesting and a piece of it that I wanted to pull out with the ruler of the ninth and the fourth as well as

04:39:44 Speaker_00
even for that matter, the ruler of the 10th house of career and the 4th.

04:39:49 Speaker_00
Sometimes the 4th house can literally signify the Earth, and I cannot think of any more literal example than that, than having a geology professor with the ruler of the 9th and 10th and the 4th.

04:40:02 Speaker_01
Yeah, I think anything that involves excavating has a fourth house quality to it, whether it's drilling for oil or digging for minerals or any kind of geological work.

04:40:17 Speaker_00
So they teach geology, sustainability and planetary science. So there's this element also of ecology and their BS was in environmental science to begin with.

04:40:31 Speaker_00
So they're a renowned geoscientist, explorer, and science communicator at this point, and that's a big part of their role as well as science communicating. So I thought that was a cool example. Shout out to Lindsay for that one. All right.

04:40:48 Speaker_00
Next one is Billy Graham.

04:40:50 Speaker_01
Hey, I just mentioned him a minute ago. Did you? A friend of Johnny Cash.

04:40:57 Speaker_00
Oh, right. Yeah. Okay. So Billy Graham, Aries rising. And the point of this example is I was looking for mutual receptions between the 4th and the 9th to find ones that had a really powerful connection between those two houses.

04:41:13 Speaker_00
And he was the one that came up because it's like Cancer is on the 4th house and the ruler is the Moon, which is in Sagittarius, and the ruler of the 9th house is Jupiter, which is actually exalted in Cancer in the 4th. And

04:41:27 Speaker_00
There's two things I want to emphasize about this example. One, Billy Graham was a Christian evangelist, like pastor, basically. The first part is that he rose to prominence in the mid-20th century through his large-scale preaching events,

04:41:46 Speaker_00
he became known for filling these huge stadiums and other massive venues around the world for these large-scale, in-person evangelistic events that were held in stadiums and arenas and other public spaces.

04:42:02 Speaker_00
These attracted massive crowds, sometimes numbering hundreds of thousands. There's something about this where it's like the 9th house of religion and philosophy in connection with the 4th house of

04:42:16 Speaker_00
places and locations and buildings, and bringing people together in these large venues for a religious purpose, being part of the connection there between the 9th and the 4th houses.

04:42:30 Speaker_01
Yeah. And I got to love the Mars in the ninth too. He was real fire and brimstone, you know, like it was a real show. You know, bringing voice to the wrath of God, as it were. Right. He called them like these gatherings crusades. Yeah, exactly.

04:42:51 Speaker_01
It was very, you know, someone or something was always being denounced and, you know, made to seem extremely evil. I remember reading something about his personal house as well.

04:43:08 Speaker_01
I'm trying to remember what it was, but I know it was like, I think the biographer was describing just like trying to get to the house and that the amount of like security and the distance from the road that his house was at and all this stuff, you know, another sort of fourth house element that, you know, he sort of lived very hidden away, but he was very, you know, public.

04:43:28 Speaker_01
He was also Mr. Photo Opportunity, I would say, you know. a minister to all the presidents and what have you. Eisenhower... That's going to be my next example that I want to go into.

04:43:42 Speaker_00
So that's the second part of this example, is that he was known as the pastor to presidents. And that's the element of this that I think is new and innovative that I want to emphasize here is that

04:43:54 Speaker_00
Graham had a personal audience with many sitting US presidents from Harry Truman to Barack Obama, 12 consecutive presidents, but especially he was said to be very close to US presidents Dwight D. Eisenhower, Lyndon Johnson, and Richard Nixon, and that Johnson was supposedly one of his closest friends.

04:44:16 Speaker_00
Although there's some presidents like Truman did not like him at all. But the fact that he had this close connection with presidents, and I think it's important because it's tying together two really important 4th and 9th house themes.

04:44:32 Speaker_00
One of them is that the 9th house is not just religion, but it's also politics and beliefs. And then the second one is that the fourth house is not just where you live, but it's also your home and it's also your country.

04:44:46 Speaker_00
And the president effectively is not just like the leader of a political party, which is like the ninth house, but the president is also the leader of the country, which is fourth house. The head of state. Exactly, the head of state. And the fact that

04:45:04 Speaker_00
Jupiter, the ruler of the 9th house of religion and politics, is in cancer, exalted in the 4th house, and he's not just talking to like people from his hometown or leaders or something like that.

04:45:17 Speaker_00
He's talking to the highest possible leader of his country that he can possibly talk to, which is the president, or to the highest possible political person that he can talk to, which is the leader of their relative party or country.

04:45:34 Speaker_00
So there's something there with this mutual reception and this strong tie between those two houses in terms of exploring this theme of presidents in particular, people that are very elevated or powerful? Yeah. Yeah.

04:45:52 Speaker_01
I'm pretty sure he was friendly with Reagan too, as well. You didn't mention Reagan, but I think of Billy Graham being as much from the Reagan era as, I mean, certainly Eisenhower and Johnson and Nixon, I knew that, but yeah.

04:46:07 Speaker_00
Right. Yeah. All right, so that's that example. But this notion of an advisory role with powerful people, and especially with presidents in connection with the 9th and the 4th, is something that I saw come up in other examples.

04:46:22 Speaker_00
One of them was a more recent one, was Anthony Fauci, who was born with Virgo rising, and the 4th house is Sagittarius, which is

04:46:35 Speaker_00
ruled by Jupiter, which is in Taurus in the 9th house, and the ruler of the 9th house is Venus, which is located in Sagittarius. So what we have is a mutual reception here, like the last example between the 4th and the 9th.

04:46:48 Speaker_00
And with his, what's interesting is that he was a physician, scientist, and immunologist, and he became essentially the highest-ranking

04:47:01 Speaker_00
doctor during two pandemics, basically, who would directly consult with the president and give advice and lay down medical advice for what to do to manage, at first in the 1980s, the AIDS pandemic. And then in the 2020s, the COVID pandemic.

04:47:23 Speaker_00
So he was the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases from 1984 to 2022, and he was the chief medical advisor to the president from 2021 to 2022.

04:47:37 Speaker_00
One interesting stat about him that I found was that he was one of the world's most frequently cited scientists across all scientific journals from 1983 to 2002. I'm not sure if that was meant to be 2022. It might be.

04:47:52 Speaker_00
I might have a typo there, but I'll have to go back and check. I think that's at the core of that example. There's something

04:48:04 Speaker_00
similar to the Billy Graham one, especially in this case, because in Fauci's case, he's an advisor to the president, which is like the fourth house, because he's highly educated as a doctor in the specific things of infectious diseases.

04:48:21 Speaker_00
So he becomes the expert or the person that is advising the leaders of the country when these things happen and when it breaks out.

04:48:31 Speaker_00
So there's different themes here having to do with the 9th house, which is the place of higher education and learning, as well as the 4th house representing one's country and where you live, and just the connection between those two in this instance.

04:48:47 Speaker_00
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Another example, this is a birth chart of Richard Tarnas, a famous astrologer. He was born to American parents, but he was born in Geneva, Switzerland, and he has a mutual reception between the ruler of the 9th and the 4th

04:49:10 Speaker_00
with Gemini rising, Virgo 4th house ruled by Mercury and Aquarius in the 9th, and Aquarius ruled by Saturn, which is in Virgo in the 4th.

04:49:21 Speaker_00
And I wanted to use some of this example for that since it's a weird biographical aspect of things that he was born in Geneva, Switzerland, but he actually grew up in Detroit. So there's a signature of know, living abroad basically in his birth chart.

04:49:41 Speaker_00
That's because his parents were temporarily overseas when he was born, which is similar to Elizabeth Taylor, for example.

04:49:50 Speaker_00
But what's also interesting is I think it brings in a historical element here with his work, the connection between the 9th and the 4th, because he combines astrology and history. And he focuses especially on Western history,

04:50:08 Speaker_00
like his book, The Passion of the Western Mind, which is subtitled Understanding the Ideas that Have Shaped Our Worldview, A Narrative History of Western Thought.

04:50:19 Speaker_00
We're bringing in this fourth house thing where it's not just ninth house academic work,

04:50:25 Speaker_00
even work with astrology, but it's also tying in a history element as well by focusing on the fourth house, which is both the past and history, but also can be cultural or ancestral history as well to an extent. Yeah. All right. I must read.

04:50:43 Speaker_00
I must read.

04:50:45 Speaker_00
Well, and then lastly, that's what's groundbreaking about his astrological work with cosmos and psyche as well, is it's not just an astrology book that's giving you delineations, but it goes back painstakingly through the history and it goes back through previous configurations and looks at the history of what happened under those different planetary alignments in order to arrive at conclusions about

04:51:11 Speaker_00
know, what those alignments mean. And that's what makes his book so important and unique because it's the most comprehensive treatment of that that's ever been done in book form.

04:51:21 Speaker_00
And I think that's really coming from having that ruler of the ninth in a mutual reception with the ruler of the fourth and that notion of the fourth house sometimes having to do with history in the past. Yeah. CB All right.

04:51:35 Speaker_00
Next example is Simon Wiesenthal. This is an example that Lisa Scheim found. So This was an Austrian Holocaust survivor, and after the war, he devoted his life essentially to tracking down hidden Nazi war criminals and bringing them to trial.

04:52:07 Speaker_00
The relevant placements here is the chart is Libra rising with Capricorn 4th house, and the ruler of the 9th house of foreign travel and foreign places is Mercury since Gemini is on the 9th house, and the ruler is Mercury, which is in Capricorn in the 4th house.

04:52:26 Speaker_00
What Lisa pointed out is that sometimes The people that he was tracking were actively hiding under assumed names, and other times people just hid their past activities during the war.

04:52:43 Speaker_00
So it brings together these interesting elements of, on the one hand, the legal system, which is the Ninth House, but also uncovering hidden people or secrets, which is the Fourth House.

04:52:56 Speaker_00
So apparently, Lisa says that the center that he was the head of tracked down over 1,000 Nazi war criminals.

04:53:06 Speaker_00
Lisa points out that the ruler of the 9th and the 12th is in the 4th, is also relevant because they were sometimes hiding in other countries, basically, or tracking them internationally, essentially. Yeah. Argentina, Paraguay, et cetera. Right.

04:53:28 Speaker_00
So in the 1970s, they revealed through the media, newly appointed Austrian cabinet members had been members of the Nazi party, which Lisa's also connecting with secrets of political parties, ruler of Ninth and Fourth.

04:53:45 Speaker_00
So yeah, I thought that was a great example because it brings out some of those hidden elements of the Fourth House as well that we explored in part one. Yeah. All right. Next example is Otto von Habsburg. Oh, yeah.

04:54:04 Speaker_00
And this is Libra rising, Capricorn fourth house. And ruler of the 4th house is Saturn in Gemini in the 9th house.

04:54:22 Speaker_00
And one of the things I think is really interesting about this one, and actually I want to give a shout out to Susan in the YouTube comments who pointed out this example in one of the previous videos.

04:54:33 Speaker_00
But one of the reasons I thought it was cool is it would have been actually a really good 3rd house example, but it also works for the ruler of the 4th and the 9th because what happened is that

04:54:47 Speaker_00
His mother made him learn many languages because she believed that one day he might rule over many different countries because he was essentially the last crown prince of Austria-Hungary, being the son of Emperor Charles I and Empress Zita.

04:55:07 Speaker_00
Are you familiar with his background?

04:55:11 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah. Basically, his father became, like, of course, everyone knows the Archduke Franz Ferdinand was murdered, that started the First World War. The emperor was Franz Joseph, who would become emperor in 1848.

04:55:27 Speaker_01
So he's a really old man by this point. He dies in 1916. And so Charles, who I believe is his nephew, ascends to the throne. It's another case of, I mean, this is what happened in the end with the Habsburgs is, you know, there were no direct heirs.

04:55:42 Speaker_01
And so, you know, they're scrambling to find a new replacement, but the war is about to end. Charles is gonna wind up, you know, abdicating and ending the Habsburgs. Actually, I don't think he abdicated.

04:55:56 Speaker_01
I mean, I think it actually, just that the monarchy was shut down on him.

04:56:01 Speaker_00
So, it's not like Czar Nicholas or anything.

04:56:03 Speaker_01
Yeah, because Austria lost the war. So, they're forced to give up the monarchy. And so, his infant son Otto is very young and would have one day become emperor had Austria not lost the war, had the monarchy not been ended. And Charles died quite young.

04:56:26 Speaker_01
Okay, sorry. His father died, I think, by the time Otto was about nine years old. So there's that as well.

04:56:36 Speaker_00
Right. So this is the birth chart of somebody who would have inherited the Austria-Hungary empire from his father, but then World War I happened and their entire dynasty came to an end. And

04:56:53 Speaker_00
fell out of power essentially after losing World War I. Originally, this example was sent in because in the third house episode, I had said that I was looking for polyglots with people who spoke a lot of languages, many different languages, who had interesting third house placements.

04:57:13 Speaker_00
A listener sent this example in, which is a really excellent example because Otto had

04:57:19 Speaker_00
Sagittarius on the 3rd house and a Mercury-Jupiter conjunction that's within a degree with Mercury at 19 degrees of Sagittarius and Jupiter at 20 degrees of Sagittarius in the 3rd house. And he spoke a ton of different languages.

04:57:36 Speaker_00
He spoke German, Hungarian, Croatian, English, Spanish, French, and Latin fluently.

04:57:45 Speaker_01
And in later life... He probably would have had to speak Polish, Ukrainian, Czech, Slovenian, like any of the countries that were in the old Habsburg Empire, which was formidable.

04:57:58 Speaker_01
It was common at one point for people who lived in that empire to be polyglots. This is part of what Hitler found so offensive about Austria-Hungary was that it was such a mix of cultures.

04:58:09 Speaker_01
So yeah, his mother was just training him for something that seemed inevitable.

04:58:14 Speaker_00
Yeah. In later life, he would write something like 40 books in German, Hungarian, French, and Spanish. But the point of this example is just that his mother

04:58:24 Speaker_00
made him learn a bunch of languages because she believed he was going to rule over this huge empire that included a bunch of different European countries one day.

04:58:31 Speaker_00
And so that's the signature he's got in his chart as he has the ruler of the fourth house of parents in the ninth house of foreign countries in Gemini and in the last Saturn in Gemini, and his mom makes him learn a ton of languages.

04:58:51 Speaker_00
Yeah, there's other stuff that goes along with this example. He was exiled in 1919 after they lost World War I, and he grew up mostly in Spain.

04:59:03 Speaker_00
So there's a signature for ruler of the 4th and the 9th, and he basically was exiled from his country of birth at first.

04:59:15 Speaker_00
There's other things about his involvement in European Parliament from 1979 to 1999, where he was a very strong advocate for the expansion of the European Union, and there's some very interesting things there in terms of the connection between the fourth and the ninth.

04:59:30 Speaker_00
But yeah, I think that's actually good for now, and that's the main thing I wanted to demonstrate with this example.

04:59:38 Speaker_00
Moving on, doing all these 4th house, 9th house examples made me realize that I have a connection between the ruler of the 4th and the 9th, where I have Aquarius rising, I have Taurus on the 4th house, and its ruler Venus also rules the 9th house, and then Venus is placed in Sagittarius near the degree of the Midheaven.

05:00:02 Speaker_00
I have a connection between the fourth house of parents and the ninth house of education and astrology, and the rulers conjunct my midheaven-indicating career.

05:00:10 Speaker_00
What's funny about that is my mom was actually super supportive of my studies of astrology when I discovered it, even though she doesn't have a background in astrology herself. But she helped me to find Kepler College.

05:00:25 Speaker_00
She was the one that found that there was a new college for astrology that had just opened up a few years earlier when we discovered it in 2002 or 2003, and then would help me to attend Kepler College.

05:00:40 Speaker_00
was a major turning point in my life in terms of my studies of astrology, as well as being able to pursue astrology and then make a career out of it.

05:00:49 Speaker_00
So I just thought it was really cool reflecting on that lately as I was looking through some of these different examples and realizing how could have been different.

05:00:58 Speaker_00
For her, for example, she has a challenging placement in her ninth house with Saturn there, and her parents actively dissuaded her from going to college. As a result of that, she would end up later going back

05:01:17 Speaker_00
many years later at her Saturn return and getting a college degree. But as a result of having that negative experience with her parents, she instead did the opposite and was very supportive of me going to college and helped me to get there.

05:01:30 Speaker_00
And that ended up changing my life in really positive ways. So I just wanted to give a shout out to her, to Vicky for doing that and for being amazing and to reflect on that example and how it comes up in my own life.

05:01:44 Speaker_01
Yeah. Thank you, Vicki. We couldn't have done it without you.

05:01:48 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. Let's look at the listener submissions. Let's see.

05:01:56 Speaker_00
There was one person who had a mutual reception between the 4th and the 9th, and they always wanted to live abroad, and then they finally moved to a foreign country one day and stayed there.

05:02:07 Speaker_00
Another person with the ruler of the 4th and the 9th says, I was adopted from a foreign country to the US where I grew up and I live now. Another person says, I have the ruler of the 4th and the 9th and I live abroad.

05:02:22 Speaker_00
Another person says, ruler of the 4th and the 9th and I've traveled a lot my whole life and now live abroad.

05:02:30 Speaker_00
Another person, they said they had the son in the Ninth Ruling, the Fourth, and they've worked as a touring musician, so living on the road as well as having a very politically active father.

05:02:40 Speaker_00
Another person says they'll be getting their second citizenship soon and immigrating to another country. Another says, I first moved abroad for grad school.

05:02:53 Speaker_00
Moving abroad again was a huge goal, and I pulled it off with my husband, factoring that goal into every decision for years. I also got married abroad. Three different countries involved in these examples, too. Okay.

05:03:09 Speaker_00
Another person says, the ruler of my fourth house, the sun is in my ninth. I've never quite felt at home in my family or in my country, but I can also understand that as partially from my Aquarius moon.

05:03:23 Speaker_00
I'm most at home I've ever felt in my current apartment, which is next to my university. I've always thought about moving abroad someday. I'm currently in a long-distance relationship with somebody from another country.

05:03:36 Speaker_00
Perhaps I'll move there in the future. Even if the relationship fails, I want to move someday. I feel drawn to some other cultures and climates. I just don't see myself living in the Netherlands forever.

05:03:48 Speaker_00
I would be somewhat disappointed if that would be my future.

05:03:54 Speaker_00
It's just a huge theme sometimes when you have connections between the 4th house of your home and living situation and the 9th house of foreign countries and foreign travels of living abroad or moving to a different country.

05:04:07 Speaker_00
One person said that Saturn ruling the 4th house of parents placed in the 9th house of religion, and they had a very strict religious upbringing. So that makes sense, parents in the 9th house in religion. Another person says,

05:04:22 Speaker_00
My father is a Protestant pastor, so I grew up in church. And at the age of 20, I moved to a different city, and in less than a year, moved to a different country where I live until today. So there you get a blend of both of those things.

05:04:40 Speaker_00
Another person says, Mercury and Saj in the ninth. My dad speaks multiple languages. My sister lives abroad. My maternal grandfather was raised in a Buddhist temple as an orphan. He has also passed in a plane crash.

05:04:58 Speaker_00
So the grandfather passed away while traveling. My family heritage is Cambodian, who are known for their blunt and direct communication style.

05:05:08 Speaker_00
I also never really felt at home with the culture here and feel more at home while I'm traveling abroad in general, being in the liminal space. I also find comfort in higher education and accumulating knowledge." That's a great example. All right.

05:05:33 Speaker_00
Another example, they say, moving from a small segregated and closed-minded town and getting a formal and liberal education elsewhere, which opened the doors to me moving around and having an open mind and a desire to learn about other people, places, and things.

05:05:50 Speaker_00
My fourth house is Gemini, which is where my moon is placed.

05:05:55 Speaker_00
I also used and continue to use what I'm learning to better inform my parenting style and open up my children to new ways of seeing the world around them, not to mention homeschooling my children for 10 years before sending them to regular school.

05:06:08 Speaker_00
It's been an incredible journey and we're still exploring." I thought that was an interesting additional twist with the ninth house sometimes representing education and the fourth house representing the home and living situation.

05:06:19 Speaker_00
They homeschooled their kids. All right, this next person says, I have a pretty literal one. My fourth whole sign house is Taurus, and Venus is in Libra in the ninth.

05:06:37 Speaker_00
Books and bookcases are very prominent in every room of my home, particularly the books that I read while getting my PhD. My framed degree is also part of the decor. The bookcases are color-coordinated to match my furniture.

05:06:53 Speaker_00
There's also a lot of contrasting browns, reds, blues, purples, with a splash of white. I even have blank books with peaceful quotes on the spines. my bedroom dresser, and they're color-coordinated with some decorative gold balls and faux flowers.

05:07:10 Speaker_00
My mother is a teacher and raised me to love books, and she also had stacks of books in her bedroom when I was growing up.

05:07:18 Speaker_00
Actually, now that I think about it, my first venture into spiritual thinking came as a result of a book I found on the bookshelf in my mom's bedroom. That book and the author have been essential to my personal spiritual growth. really good. All right.

05:07:37 Speaker_00
And the last one says, it says, depending on the house system, my fourth house ruler is in the eighth house in quadrant and equal houses or in the ninth house in whole sign.

05:07:51 Speaker_00
In the eighth house, I'd say I'm always super attracted to occult things, crime and mystery and detective stories, deeply curious and fascinated about human psychology and why people do the things they do, especially criminal profiling.

05:08:04 Speaker_00
But what's super interesting is using the whole sign system, my fourth house ruler and ninth house ruler are in each other's houses, and I immigrated to Canada when I was 10.

05:08:14 Speaker_00
And the reason is because my parents wanted to give us a better education, and now I'm in the States, but I'd go back and visit my home country every year, or every other year usually.

05:08:26 Speaker_00
Since I moved to Canada, I don't get to see my dad as much because he then goes back and forth between his work and visiting us. So I'd say I see a physical manifestation with whole sign and a psychological manifestation using equal and quadrant.

05:08:41 Speaker_00
With that said, I guess we could say that when I moved to a different country, it was like the death and a new beginning where I have to make new friends, learn new languages.

05:08:49 Speaker_00
And then for whole sign, traditionally ninth house is associated with astrology and the occult stuff, not the eighth house. So both works is how they ended it. Yeah, so I thought that was interesting.

05:09:02 Speaker_00
We see a lot of repeating and echoing themes there and commonalities, but I'm sure there's other little details we could explore.

05:09:10 Speaker_00
I hope to hear from other examples because I know the 9th is such a broad house that can indicate so many different things. I'd love to hear other examples from people.

05:09:20 Speaker_00
Let's transition to talking about the 10th house of career at this point and what it looks like when the ruler of the 4th house of home and living situation and parents is in the 10th house of career or vice versa. The first example I want to use was

05:09:36 Speaker_00
sent in to me as a suggestion, which was a great one. I'd forgotten about this.

05:09:42 Speaker_00
Shout out to Sita on Twitter for reminding me of this example from a few years ago, which is the birth chart of Jeanette McCurdy, who a few years ago wrote this memoir in 2022 with this really shocking title that was titled, I'm Glad My Mom Died.

05:10:00 Speaker_00
So this example is Jeannette was born with Leo rising, and the 4th house is Scorpio where we find Pluto, and the ruler of the 4th whole sign house is Mars, which is placed in Taurus in the 10th house conjunct the Moon in a day chart.

05:10:21 Speaker_00
So it's the most difficult planet in the chart, and it's also square Saturn and Aquarius in the 7th house. So I spent some time researching this, and it's actually a really fascinating story.

05:10:32 Speaker_00
The story is that Jeanette was a child actor, and her mom always wanted to be an actress. Her dream was to be famous, but her parents wouldn't let her, basically. So what happened is that she

05:10:49 Speaker_00
basically put her daughter, Jeanette, the owner of the birth chart, into acting when she was six years old, and then the mother tried to live vicariously through her daughter and to achieve her dreams of Hollywood success and stuff like that, and to fulfill those dreams that the mother always wanted.

05:11:09 Speaker_00
So the memoir is really interesting. It's like this raw and really deeply personal account of Jeanette's life as a child actor and her complex relationship with her mother.

05:11:21 Speaker_00
And she talks about navigating the challenging world of child acting, particularly within the Nickelodeon system, and describes a lot of the pressures and the anxieties and the emotional toll that it took on her. So she also talks about abuse.

05:11:40 Speaker_00
She talks about abuse from her mother, and her tumultuous relationship with her mother is the central theme of the book, of course, where she describes her mother as controlling and emotionally abusive, pushing her into acting to fulfill her own unfulfilled dreams.

05:12:01 Speaker_00
So this included things like stage mom pressure, forcing Jeanette into acting from a young age, encouraging restrictive eating, an unhealthy body image, conditional love, like making her love and approval contingent on Jeanette's success, as well as inappropriate physical and even emotional boundaries.

05:12:23 Speaker_00
So it's a really intense thing, and obviously,

05:12:29 Speaker_00
Part of it here, in the most broad sense, is just like with the ruler of the fourth house of parents and the 10th house of career, part of the potential can be having your parents tied in with your career to some extent, or having your family tied in with your career.

05:12:44 Speaker_00
But obviously, in this instance, we've got some really challenging things since it's Mars in a day chart as the ruler, and it's in the 10th house of career.

05:12:51 Speaker_00
And then Mars and the moon are opposite to Pluto, which is there in the fourth house, which is where we're getting some of the controlling and sort of like manipulative aspects of things, I think, that are coming through.

05:13:03 Speaker_01
Yeah. What a fascinating story. I was only sort of tangentially aware of her, but I'm glad to know we have her birth time. Looking to her astrology more.

05:13:18 Speaker_00
Yeah, so the memoir explores her journey of grief and healing after her mom died of cancer in 2013 and delves into her struggles.

05:13:28 Speaker_00
She said it was basically a cathartic experience to write the book and was supposed to represent her reclaiming her narrative and finding her voice after years of feeling silenced and controlled. So the book was really successful.

05:13:42 Speaker_00
It resonated with many readers, particularly those who have experienced similar family dynamics or challenges within the entertainment industry, and it sparked a lot of conversations about parental pressure, emotional abuse, and the long-term effects of child stardom.

05:14:02 Speaker_00
So, there was actually a lot of interesting transits. Her mother passed away in September 2013, and Saturn was actually transiting her fourth house at the time because it was going through Scorpio, of course.

05:14:17 Speaker_00
Pluto was exactly stationing direct opposite to her Venus in the 12th house, with Venus, of course, being the ruler of the 10th.

05:14:26 Speaker_00
She was also 21 at the time, so she was in a 10th house perfection year that was activating her natal Moon-Mars conjunction in the 10th. And let's see, the other thing that was interesting is the book was published August 9th, 2022.

05:14:42 Speaker_00
And of course, Jeanette was having eclipses in her fourth and 10th house the year that the book came out, which is great because it's another one of those examples I talked about a lot in the last episode in part one about how when eclipses start happening in certain houses,

05:14:58 Speaker_00
one area of the chart, it's going to have eclipses in the opposite house at the same time.

05:15:04 Speaker_00
But sometimes what'll happen is it'll tie together two seemingly normally unconnected or disconnected areas of the person's life, in this instance, like parents and career.

05:15:16 Speaker_00
But in her instance, because she has a natal connection between those two areas, it tied them together for a very specific reason. And I mentioned something else.

05:15:27 Speaker_01
Since she's 30 years old, of course, yeah, she's in a seventh house perfection year, and she has Saturn in the seventh and that's part of, you know, the heavy duty ness of the title and what have you.

05:15:39 Speaker_01
But with a chart like hers, with the Saturn configuration to Mars, while the age of 30 is technically not a Saturn-Mars joint synodic return, it's about as close as you're going to get.

05:15:52 Speaker_01
And I bet you her solar return for 2022, which of course is only about six weeks before the book came out, five weeks even, is going to have some element of that Saturn-Mars square from the 7th to the 10th.

05:16:08 Speaker_01
uh, replicated in the solar return, compounding the whole story.

05:16:13 Speaker_01
So at the age of 30, um, you know, if there is some like really strong Saturn Mars aspect in the chart, the age of 30 is cyclically speaking, the age where you expect it to really show itself.

05:16:26 Speaker_01
And certainly if one of those planets happens to be in the seventh house, so that it's in the perfected sign all the more so. And of course, if that planet happens to be the ruler of that sign, then, you know, you're, you're just, you're,

05:16:37 Speaker_01
got a full house.

05:16:38 Speaker_00
CB Yeah, that makes sense. Her chart really reminds me of Kylie Jenner's chart, who we talked about earlier, not as negatively, but just in the sense that Kylie Jenner also had the ruler of the 4th and the 10th Here's the chart.

05:17:02 Speaker_00
Let me share it really quickly. It's like Aries is on the fourth whole sign house and the ruler is Mars in the 10th.

05:17:10 Speaker_00
Again, she grew up doing reality television from the age of nine or something like that with the family being in the show, keeping up with the Kardashians. That's all about the family and just the mother being closely tied in with one's career.

05:17:27 Speaker_01
Oh, I was going to say Elizabeth Taylor also has the ruler of the 10th and the 4th, and she was also someone whose mother had been an actress and pushed the daughter into it to live through it vicariously. I know it's a common story.

05:17:43 Speaker_01
I'm sorry I interrupted you, but since we also discussed her recently, I thought I'd throw that in.

05:17:48 Speaker_00
Yeah, no, I think that's great. Let's see, it also kind of reminded me a little bit of the more recent story of

05:18:01 Speaker_00
Gypsy Rose Blanchard, who also had, I think, Leo rising with the Sun in Cancer in the 12th with Venus or something like that, and some of those 12th house placements. I don't know. Maybe that's going a little far afield here.

05:18:17 Speaker_01
She's a whole year earlier. She was born just before that Venus retrograde in Leo in 91. So Jeanette McCurdy is a blue three like me. or not long before my 24th birthday even. Yeah.

05:18:33 Speaker_00
Yeah. So that's a tricky example, but just initial access point is connection between your parents and your career. And sometimes that's going to be a good thing.

05:18:44 Speaker_00
Other times that could be an extremely negative thing in terms of your subjective experience. And it really depends on how it's situated.

05:18:52 Speaker_01
Yeah. And if there's any way to turn this to be normal in any way, most of us have relationships with our families that

05:19:00 Speaker_01
you know, span a dynamic, you know, that, that have a strong sort of, so in terms of trying to gauge things as being positive or not, when it comes to family, it can get very convoluted and complicated because most of the times it is, you know, for a lot of people.

05:19:17 Speaker_00
Yeah, that's a great point.

05:19:19 Speaker_00
All right, next example is the writer Jane Austen, who actually has a mutual reception between the ruler of the 10th, which is Mercury, which is in the 4th in Sagittarius, and the ruler of the 4th, which is in the 10th, which is Jupiter.

05:19:36 Speaker_00
And of course, Mercury is also the ruler of the Ascendant, which is in the 4th, and Jupiter is the ruler of the 7th house of relationships, which is in the 10th house of career.

05:19:47 Speaker_00
So hers is really complicated, but my main thing that I wanted to demonstrate with this example is that what's interesting about her, she was a writer in the 1800s, and like many women writers at the time, Jane Austen published her books anonymously.

05:20:04 Speaker_00
So she has the ruler of the 10th house of career, but it's in the 4th house of privacy and secrecy and that which is hidden, and her books literally were not published under her name in her lifetime.

05:20:22 Speaker_00
It's tricky because it's due to social stuff, where at the time, the ideal roles for women were supposed to be as a wife and a mother, and that writing as a profession for women was regarded at best as some sort of secondary form of activity.

05:20:40 Speaker_00
So there's just a lot of complications with that. But When she published her book Sense and Sensibility in 1811, it was described simply as being written, quote-unquote, by a lady. So her books never appeared under her name during her lifetime.

05:21:01 Speaker_00
There's all sorts of interesting things, though, about the themes and the plots in all of her books that actually come up with a lot of 4th and 7th house topics.

05:21:13 Speaker_00
Most of her novels, her six novels that she's known for, implicitly interpret, critique, and comment upon the British landed gentry at the end of the 18th century.

05:21:25 Speaker_00
So there's this theme of landed gentry, which is very fourth house, is like a largely historical British social class of landowners who could live entirely from rental income or at least had a country estate.

05:21:43 Speaker_00
So there's some 4th house topics there, but then there's also some 7th house topics where her plots often explore the dependency of women on marriage for the pursuit of favorable social standing and economic security.

05:21:57 Speaker_01
I was going to say, I had a quaint little phrase to summarize her. Her books are about like, you know, how we feel on the inside and what we do on the outside.

05:22:09 Speaker_01
You know, like, like sort of, yeah, what's the public life, what's the private life and, and, you know, where's the struggle between the two.

05:22:17 Speaker_01
which involves all these things like the landed gentry, how do they behave in public, and then what are they doing in the boudoir or whatever.

05:22:26 Speaker_00
CB Right, that's good. I think this is also a fourth house component.

05:22:33 Speaker_00
Her novels became popular a decade or two after she died, so there we get some of those themes with the fourth house having to do with the end of life, but also what happens after death as well as our legacy.

05:22:47 Speaker_00
There's very little biographical information about her, and it comes from her few surviving letters and sketches that her family members wrote about her.

05:22:57 Speaker_00
What's interesting is that 52 years after she died, her nephew's publication of a book called A Memoir of Jane Austen introduced a compelling version of her writing career and her supposedly uneventful life to an eager audience.

05:23:16 Speaker_00
Her family and relatives built this legend of a good, quiet Jane Austen, quote unquote, and portrayed her as a woman in a happy domestic situation whose family was the mainstay of her life.

05:23:30 Speaker_00
But interestingly, modern biographers often include details that were removed from the letters by family biographies.

05:23:41 Speaker_00
So their challenge of modern biographers is to try to keep things balanced by quote-unquote not presenting her languishing in periods of deep unhappiness as an embittered, disappointed woman trapped in a thoroughly unpleasant family, and some sort of tension there in terms of describing it as her family tried to describe her life versus trying to infer certain things based on her letters.

05:24:11 Speaker_00
Right. Anyway, I think that's it for hers, but that element of privacy or secrecy or that which is hidden, as well as things that come about after a person passes away as a fourth house component. Yep. All right.

05:24:31 Speaker_00
I think we did the Cook, Jamie, Oliver in part one, didn't we? I think so. I will skip that.

05:24:40 Speaker_00
I'll just say Jamie Oliver is a celebrity chef whose parents ran a pub or a restaurant where he practiced cooking in the kitchen with his parents, immersing himself in the world of food.

05:24:52 Speaker_00
And he has a mutual reception between the fourth and the 10th houses. So again, it's just showing how your parents sometimes can influence your later career that you get into in the direction that you go. All right, here's that chart.

05:25:05 Speaker_00
Libra rising, Capricorn fourth house ruled by Saturn and Cancer in the 10th and the day chart conjunct Venus. Ruler of the 10th house, which is Cancer, is the Moon and Capricorn in the fourth house.

05:25:17 Speaker_00
So strong mutual reception between the fourth and the 10th. The next example is John F. Kennedy. who was President of the United States in the 1960s and was assassinated in 1963.

05:25:34 Speaker_00
He has the ruler of the fourth whole sign house as Saturn, which is placed in Cancer in the 10th house of career.

05:25:43 Speaker_00
And part of the story behind that is that he came from a really powerful family with a very powerful father who had a major influence on Kennedy, on John's career, and on him getting involved in politics and reaching the success that he did, I think is one way to put it, right?

05:26:05 Speaker_00
Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, go ahead. So his father actually played a significant role in his rise to the presidency, right? Oh, yeah.

05:26:17 Speaker_01
Huge. I mean, the only reason he ran for president is because his father wanted him to, ultimately. But the thing is, he had had an older brother, Joe Jr., you know, Leo, who was everything that John wasn't, was like athletic and more outgoing.

05:26:39 Speaker_01
You know, John was the second oldest and skinny, sickly, you know, bookworm kind of kid. And Joe Jr., his older brother, was the one who was supposed to run for president.

05:26:53 Speaker_01
And there's a whole sort of poetic thing to it in a way, because Joe Kennedy Sr., their dad, had been Roosevelt's American ambassador to Great Britain. But he was withdrawn from that position when he became a little too pro-isolationist.

05:27:12 Speaker_01
Because Joe Kennedy Sr. realized he had sons who could wind up dying in the war. And that's, in fact, what happened. Joe volunteered for a mission where he was a pilot and he was flying a plane load of explosives over the channel.

05:27:31 Speaker_01
for delivery, not to, I believe, or maybe he was supposed to bomb them, but one thing went wrong or another, and the plane blew up and he was killed.

05:27:40 Speaker_01
And it's compounded by the fact that the previous year, John had become a decorated war hero when his boat was rammed by a Japanese

05:27:51 Speaker_01
boat, and he wound up saving the lives of at least one of his crewmen, I believe several of them, got them to safety and got them rescued. And so he was a decorated war hero.

05:28:04 Speaker_01
And because he was, the older brother was like, well, I can't, you know, have my little brother have a decoration. So I've got to go, I've got to volunteer for this very dangerous secret mission. which is what got him killed.

05:28:16 Speaker_01
So there's that whole thing to it as well.

05:28:18 Speaker_01
The fact that, you know, Joe had tried to stop, that the father tried to stop American involvement in the war for fear of losing his son, that the fact that he wound up doing so, the fact that now John is the next in line to run for president, has to sort of step in his big brother's shoes and fulfill the destiny that was, you know, supposed to be carried out by the older brother.

05:28:38 Speaker_01
So there's that whole thing to it. The ruler of the third house is Jupiter, which is placed in the eighth house. Right, exactly. That eighth house of Kennedy's is pretty wild because when he was killed, he was 46 years old.

05:28:58 Speaker_01
And what you get at the age of 46 is really the closest near perfect Mercury synodic return that you get in a human lifetime. You get sort of close-ish ones at 13 and 33, but at 46, it's bang on. In other words,

05:29:15 Speaker_01
And on his last birthday in 1963, Mercury was in fact stationing direct in Taurus, very, very close to where it is in his own natal chart. And he was born on the day it was stationing direct.

05:29:26 Speaker_01
And the fact that it's in between that Mars and Jupiter in the eighth, yeah, you know, it really sort of points in some way to the way that all happened.

05:29:38 Speaker_00
So anyway, to bring this example to a close, while JFK undoubtedly possessed his own talents and charisma, his father's ambition, resources, and political savvy were instrumental in propelling him to the highest office in the land. And

05:29:56 Speaker_00
their relationship was complex with both admiration as well as tension between them. But nonetheless, it's a very striking example of the father being very much important in terms of the person's career with the ruler of the fourth and the 10th. Yeah.

05:30:14 Speaker_00
All right, let's see. Next one's to go through some really quickly. As I was going through my files, pulling up Ruler of Fourth and the Tenth, it was all echoing very similar things, but just in different fields.

05:30:28 Speaker_00
For example, this is the birth chart of Megan the Stallion. who is a rapper. The story with her is that her mother was a rapper, and then Megan later became a rapper as well.

05:30:44 Speaker_00
When Megan was really young, her mother brought her to her recording sessions, so it really impacted and influenced her in a significant way. Megan has Taurus rising, Leo on the fourth house, and the Sun is in Aquarius in the 10th house.

05:31:02 Speaker_00
so pretty straightforward. Similar case with Fiona Apple, who's one of my favorite artists. So Fiona Apple has Aquarius on the 4th whole sign house, Saturn and Leo in the 10th house, and her mother was a singer.

05:31:20 Speaker_00
And then of course, Fiona became a famous singer as well. Interestingly, Fiona's sister also became a singer, and Saturn is also the ruler of the 3rd house there in the 10th. Pretty cool, pretty cool. Really great writer. Yeah, for sure.

05:31:43 Speaker_00
Dwayne Johnson, similar thing that we already talked about earlier, where it's like his father was a wrestler and then Dwayne himself became a famous wrestler later on with the ruler of the 10th and the 4th. And then finally,

05:32:05 Speaker_00
Kim Kardashian is the last celebrity example in this section, where she has Sagittarius rising, the fourth house is Pisces, and the ruler is Jupiter, which is in Virgo in the 10th house, conjunct the degree of the midheaven.

05:32:22 Speaker_00
Her entire career or large parts of it have revolved around the famous family that she was born into, and her mother has been really instrumental in guiding her career as well as the career of other family members in terms of being the one who proposed their reality television show and everything else.

05:32:43 Speaker_00
Right, right. All right, so those are all the celebrity examples.

05:32:49 Speaker_00
In terms of ones that were sent in by listeners, one person says they have the ruler of the fourth and the 10th house, and they said that they moved to many different countries and cities due to their work, so their work being tied in with their home and living situation.

05:33:09 Speaker_00
There's another listener that works at home on an ashram. the ruler of the 10th and the 4th. Another listener says, Pisces 4th house, Jupiter in the 10th house. Before I retired, I ran three businesses from my house.

05:33:26 Speaker_00
My career has always been what defined me as a person. Next one says, Saturn in the 10th house conjunct the Moon and Cancer opposite Chiron in the 4th. I'm doing my degree in psychology. It explains pretty much how this placement showed up till now.

05:33:44 Speaker_00
So I think we're getting some of the more internal or introspective aspects of the 4th house there, which Lisa really emphasized in part one. One person says, ruler of my fourth is Mars in my 10th house in Libra with the Sun, Jupiter, and Mercury.

05:34:01 Speaker_00
And they say, I have an art studio at home and another public one where I can show my work. So bring your work home with you. Another person says, Leo rising, Mars ruling the fourth house in the 10th,

05:34:16 Speaker_00
opposing Saturn in the fourth, they said, my work life is so often compromised by family drama, responsibility, and even tragedy. I'm regularly pulled away from work duty and any worldly ambition by putting out family fires.

05:34:32 Speaker_00
So in this instance, it's like the family challenging placements connected to the fourth and the 10th house that are sort of distracting the person or holding them back from certain career ambitions that they would do otherwise.

05:34:48 Speaker_01
Right. This is sort of the converse to the parents helping the career is the family getting in the way of the career.

05:34:54 Speaker_00
Exactly. And that happens sometimes. It's like sometimes people can be held back by their parents or by circumstances or things like that.

05:35:03 Speaker_00
And that's one of the interesting and tricky things in astrology is you have to know that that's a possible scenario and you have to know what that looks like. So yeah. All right, the next one, ruler of the 4th and the 10th.

05:35:18 Speaker_00
I was heavily encouraged by my father to follow his professional footsteps in science slash engineering. So that's a really common one that we've seen a bunch of. The next one says, my husband has a good one, ruler of the fourth and the 10th.

05:35:33 Speaker_00
He's the third generation in his family to work the same specialized niche industry, and we currently live where we do because of his job. That's good.

05:35:45 Speaker_00
What's really funny, we talked about that in part one, because I was really into Sophia Coppola's chart. I did this whole thing about nepotism and when something's nepotism versus when it's just following in the family lineage and footsteps.

05:36:06 Speaker_00
I hadn't watched The Godfather 3 yet, and I just watched The Godfather 3 the other night and realized realize some of the issues surrounding that.

05:36:16 Speaker_01
I have a very different take on that. I like her in that, precisely because she's sort of believable in the vulnerability. Sure.

05:36:32 Speaker_00
Yeah.

05:36:34 Speaker_01
I was like, no, I'm buying this. And much as I'm a huge Winona Ryder fan, and of course she was supposed to be the one in the role, I think it would be very different.

05:36:44 Speaker_01
Winona Ryder is too sort of like, yeah, you can't imagine her being that girl anyway, you know, the girl that Sophia ultimately winds up playing. I even think she kind of carries the movie. It's true.

05:37:02 Speaker_01
It's not, I mean, how is it going to measure up to those first two? But nonetheless, it's not terrible.

05:37:09 Speaker_00
It's very watchable. It's not terrible. The movie is better than I was led to believe. She does bring a good element into it, and there's certainly a naturalism to her performance. But that being said, she was

05:37:28 Speaker_00
not the best actor in that movie, to put it lightly, and the contrast with other professional actors.

05:37:35 Speaker_00
I was watching a video essay on this from another YouTube channel that was really good, and they just pointed out that Winona Ryder was supposed to be in the role. She got sick and dropped out at the very last minute. Sophia got pulled into it,

05:37:51 Speaker_00
lots of people didn't think she was ready and kept begging her father not to push her into this. And even Sophia herself realized and was really scared and wasn't ready for it. And then the movie came out.

05:38:03 Speaker_00
I think Saturn was transiting through her Ascendant not long after that, her first house, and she just gets ripped apart by the press.

05:38:12 Speaker_01
RL Oh, yeah. It was terrible. It was terrible. Okay. We didn't have memes in those days.

05:38:19 Speaker_01
But no, it was like all the talk shows, all the, you know, cartoons in the morning paper, and it just became a punchline for a good while, like until the movie faded from memory, you know. Yeah, no, it was harsh. It was harsh. Yeah.

05:38:38 Speaker_00
And it's like, I didn't think she was amazing in it, but it also went too far at times, and there was certainly an element of excessiveness in a lot of the criticisms and critiques of it.

05:38:51 Speaker_00
But it's interesting though, because afterwards, on my birthday actually, I had never watched her movie that she directed, Marie Antoinette, from 2006.

05:39:01 Speaker_00
And I absolutely loved it, and I didn't realize that Marie Antoinette has the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house. And the entire movie was just about- Talk about the family business.

05:39:11 Speaker_01
Talk about the family business.

05:39:12 Speaker_00
Well, and also, it's ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house with Jupiter and Libra. is about Marie Antoinette living in opulence in the Palace of Versailles.

05:39:24 Speaker_00
I think it's fascinating that Sophia has the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house, and then she directed a movie about somebody that has the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house.

05:39:34 Speaker_00
Anyways, I loved that movie and I think Sophia is an amazing director.

05:39:39 Speaker_00
And I think it's been really interesting how she's followed in her father's footsteps in that career, but also forged her own path and her own unique voice and style and everything else.

05:39:52 Speaker_00
But yeah, I just thought it was interesting because I didn't fully understand some of the context of what had happened before she became a successful movie director and not an actor.

05:40:04 Speaker_01
Well, there's two things to point out. There's another movie called New York Stories that was made before The Godfather 3, but it was made after Francis's son, Sophia's older brother was killed in 1986.

05:40:19 Speaker_01
It's a movie called New York Stories, and it's a movie that's got three segments, one directed by Martin Scorsese, one directed by Woody Allen, and one directed by Francis Ford Coppola. And it's not great. The Woody Allen part is kind of the funniest.

05:40:37 Speaker_01
It's a funny bit. It's not any of their best work, but Francis's segment is written by Sophia, who was still a kid at the time. And, you know, most sort of Francis fans acknowledge like, excuse me, you know, forget nepotism.

05:40:56 Speaker_01
Francis literally wanted his daughter, like if she wrote a story, he wanted to make it into a movie. And he used the New York story's opportunity to do that.

05:41:05 Speaker_01
So, you know, he's first and foremost a family man, as you know, like we, you know, going through his chart, like that's just fundamental to him. The other thing is, yeah, I don't know, have you seen The Virgin Suicides, her very first film?

05:41:21 Speaker_00
No, I've got a lot of like, her, catalog to work through that I'll be working through. I'd seen Lost in Translation, which is the other one that everyone's seen.

05:41:31 Speaker_00
It was such an iconic one from that time period of the early 2000s, but I've got a lot of catching up to do. But anyway, I know we could do the whole digression here.

05:41:41 Speaker_01
Sorry. I was just going to say, for Virgin Suicides, Kirsten Dunst is in both movies and they both have this theme of sort of like, Yeah, young girls facing sort of the perils of adulthood and losing their innocence and so on and so forth.

05:42:00 Speaker_00
Yeah. Very good, really good. So really quickly, since they didn't show it in the last one, and it would have been an amazing example, here's Marie Antoinette's chart that has Cancer rising and the Moon in Libra in the fourth house with Jupiter. Yeah.

05:42:21 Speaker_00
All right. Back to. Submissions, the next one says, fourth house is Taurus, but the IC is in Gemini in the fifth whole sign house. Venus is in my 10th house in Scorpio.

05:42:35 Speaker_00
I'm a registered psychologist specializing on work with children, family, and perinatal clients. I have a stellium in the 10th house, sextile Mercury-Sun conjunction in the 12th house.

05:42:48 Speaker_00
Most of my clients see me to help with early childhood and family trauma, depression, grief, and loss. So that ties together a few different houses and things, but I think that's really interesting and good in bringing some of those elements in.

05:43:05 Speaker_00
The next one says, ruler of the 4th and the 10th, I work from home. The ruler is in detriment, Mars and Taurus in a day chart, and I also struggle with finding where to live, and I move a lot.

05:43:21 Speaker_00
Last one I have that I wrote says, my fourth house is Aries with Mars in the 10th. The ruler of my fourth is in the 10th house. I worked most of my career in local government, school districts, military, and post office.

05:43:38 Speaker_00
When my kids were young, I volunteered in their activities, such as scorekeeper and games, club scouts, and brownie leader, very community focused. Growing up, my home life was somewhat challenging. We moved many times.

05:43:53 Speaker_00
And I guess one could say that I had a reputation of being my mom's daughter. So I thought that phrase at the end was interesting because that's like a phrase, right? Do you know what that means or how people describe that?

05:44:04 Speaker_01
Well, like a chip off the old block kind of thing. His father's son. I mean, it's just the variation of that following in the footsteps.

05:44:12 Speaker_00
Yeah. That makes sense. All right, well, that I believe is the 10th house. I'm sure there's many other different variations, but at least it gives people an idea of how that goes.

05:44:23 Speaker_00
All right, let's move on to the 11th house, the ruler of the 4th house in the 11th house. 11th house being the place of friends and groups.

05:44:35 Speaker_00
My first example of this is the birth chart of Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple Computer, who has Sagittarius on the fourth house with the IC there, and the ruler is Jupiter, which is exalted in Cancer in the 11th house.

05:44:52 Speaker_00
What I love about this chart is Steve Jobs famously got together with his friend Steve Wozniak, and they built the first Apple computers in his parents' garage. So Yeah, that's the delineation.

05:45:09 Speaker_00
He got together in his parents' garage with his friend and created a computer company. What's funny about this is they also used the garage to store computer components and as a base of operations for their fledgling business.

05:45:23 Speaker_00
What's funny is that the house is now protected as a historical site as a result of the mythos and legends surrounding them, starting know, one of the biggest companies in the world in that garage.

05:45:38 Speaker_00
The last thing is that some of the initial design and engineering of the Apple One also happened at his friend Steve Wozniak's apartment.

05:45:49 Speaker_00
So yeah, just lots of interesting things there in terms of connections between friends, home and parents, and different topics like that. CB

05:46:01 Speaker_00
Alright, we have a similar case with Kurt Cobain, who also had Virgo rising, Sagittarius fourth house, ruled by Jupiter in Cancer in the 11th house.

05:46:14 Speaker_00
Camille-Michelle Gray was the one that initially pointed this one out to me, but it's really interesting because

05:46:22 Speaker_00
the one hand, part of the entire mythology of Kurt Cobain is how Nirvana emerged from the underground scene in Seattle, and then in doing so, elevated a bunch of his contemporaries as part of the Seattle underground music scene or Seattle underground grunge scene.

05:46:42 Speaker_00
This is funny because the fourth house is literally called the underground place, the place under the Earth in Greek. They played in small clubs and built a following through word of mouth before eventually breaking into the mainstream.

05:46:57 Speaker_00
But then as a result of that, when they had breakthrough success in 1991 with the album Nevermind, and especially the single Smells Like Teen Spirit,

05:47:08 Speaker_00
It brought this massive wave of attention to the Seattle scene and to the grunge sound, so that bands like Pearl Jam and Soundgarden and Alice in Chains and others, who'd been toiling in relative obscurity, were suddenly thrust into the spotlight.

05:47:24 Speaker_00
There's something about that, just because it's like the fourth house being the local scene of where you're from, and the 11th house being your friends or contemporaries, and in this instance, elevating them.

05:47:37 Speaker_01
Yeah, I would say the 11th house is a tribal place. And the tribal aspect to Nirvana's existence and rise to fame, it sort of happens a little before that.

05:47:51 Speaker_01
First of all, he's very close friends with the Melvins, who were one of the first of that wave of bands.

05:48:00 Speaker_01
But secondly, part of the reason Nirvana got the record contract that they did with Geffen was on the recommendation of Sonic Youth, a band that had been an underground band that had just signed a major label contract themselves.

05:48:16 Speaker_01
And then they were sort of also hired as agents, as it were, like to recommend good bands for this label to sign, and they recommended Nirvana.

05:48:26 Speaker_01
So there was even a sort of Jupiter in the 11th house element to how Nirvana themselves, you know, got the spotlight, if you will. Right.

05:48:40 Speaker_01
The same time that Nevermind was released, Pearl Jam was releasing 10 and Soundgarden were releasing Bad Motor Thinker. Pearl Jam was a brand new band.

05:48:49 Speaker_01
Soundgarden, on the other hand, had been sort of established on the Seattle scene at a certain level.

05:48:55 Speaker_01
And certainly Nevermind Success, you know, elevated those records, but it was at the same time, like, it was all happening at once, you know, those bands had been developing something on the scene, in this local scene, this underground scene that you're talking about.

05:49:09 Speaker_01
But yeah, it all blew up.

05:49:14 Speaker_00
Other aspects of this, there's some minor things, but his mom kicked him out of the house at 17 when he dropped out of school, and as a result of that, he couch surfed and lived with different friends for a period of time, especially while Uranus was going through his fourth house for most of the 1980s.

05:49:35 Speaker_00
One of his friends that he lived with was Christ Novoselic during the formative years of Nirvana.

05:49:42 Speaker_00
And it's interesting because we actually found this tape, you and I did this video of Kurt and Christ practicing Nirvana at his mom's house or something like that, or at his mom's business or something at one point from the 1980s or early 1990s, right?

05:50:02 Speaker_01
I think it was 1988. So they were already working on that first record, I think.

05:50:08 Speaker_00
It was really incredible.

05:50:11 Speaker_01
Yeah, you know, Chad Channing was there, and he joined in 88. They had already recorded a few songs with Dale Crover from the Melvins at the beginning of 1988, and then Chad joined.

05:50:22 Speaker_01
So it looks like, yeah, they're rehearsing to record that first album, Bleach, for Sub Pop. And they're rehearsing, indeed, in Chris's mom's garage or living room or something.

05:50:37 Speaker_00
Yeah, so it's like a parallel with the Steve Jobs thing of building a business in your parents' garage or something like that with a friend.

05:50:46 Speaker_00
Interestingly, two other little minor things that I noticed were that one of his most famous songs, Lithium, was supposedly inspired by this period when he was living with a friend of his who had a very devout Christian family.

05:51:13 Speaker_00
Kurt basically later claimed that part of what inspired that song was his experience living with that family for a period of time, which means that one of his most successful singles was inspired by this time he was living with a friend.

05:51:29 Speaker_01
I suddenly remember the line from the song, In a daze, because I found God.

05:51:39 Speaker_00
Some of his other songs were also about his time living with friends. serve the servants, and then also something in the way. I think the most striking example that I found, even though it's a little

05:51:57 Speaker_00
is the name for his most popular song, Smells Like Teen Spirit, was developed after he came up with the name after an incident that happened with his friends in his house one day, where one of his friends spray painted this phrase, Kurt Smells Like Teen Spirit, on his wall at his apartment.

05:52:23 Speaker_00
And Kurt didn't know that that was the name of a deodorant band, and he thought it was some kind of revolutionary idea or notion or something like that, and he initially named the song after that.

05:52:37 Speaker_00
But there's this whole complicated story behind it, but I think it's just really fascinating that his most popular song was partially named after this incident that happened one day in his home with a group of friends.

05:52:52 Speaker_01
Yeah, I mean, real quick, the joke was that it was spray painted by the friend, the best friend of his girlfriend at the time. And the girlfriend wore Teen Spirit as a deodorant.

05:53:04 Speaker_01
So for the friend to write it on the wall was to say that, you know, Kurt and her friend were sleeping together. That was the undercurrent of the joke. But Kurt didn't get it because he didn't know about the deodorant.

05:53:16 Speaker_00
Right. So this just highlights the unexpected way in which everyday experiences and sometimes even trivial moments can sometimes become really significant in shaping creative works.

05:53:28 Speaker_00
In this instance, it just being like a drunken night at his apartment with friends leading to the creation or at least the name of one of the most iconic songs in rock history. All right.

05:53:48 Speaker_00
Speaking of that, Dave Grohl's chart, we talked about him earlier, and he has the ruler of the fourth house in the 11th house as well. We talked about his example earlier of he was living with Kurt at one point, and they were living in Squalor. And

05:54:11 Speaker_00
Dave toured and throughout the course of his life, it was like living on the road with different friends for long spans of time. But what I wanted to

05:54:27 Speaker_00
emphasize about this is his fourth house, there's also a challenging element to it that we've talked about having to do sometimes with topics of death.

05:54:37 Speaker_00
And I think that may be relevant here in his chart as well because he's had a couple of major instances of that where there's a connection between the fourth house, which can sometimes represent death, and the 11th house of friends where Mars is placed there in a day chart.

05:54:56 Speaker_00
And one of them was, of course, famously when his friend Kurt Cobain committed suicide in 1994.

05:55:04 Speaker_00
But then later, a couple of years ago, his friend Taylor Hawkins, who was the drummer in his band The Foo Fighters ever since the 1990s, who's the longest-running other band member with Dave, suddenly and unexpectedly passed away in 2022.

05:55:23 Speaker_00
What was weird about that is that was in March of 2022, and then just a few months later in August of 2022, Dave's mother passed away in the same year. He was actually having eclipses take place in his 11th house in that year,

05:55:41 Speaker_00
And since his IC is in the 5th house, that means that the eclipses were also happening in his IC sign at the same time, and Uranus was also in his IC at the same time. So I thought that was fascinating.

05:55:57 Speaker_00
And then also I went back and checked in 1984 what was happening, and it turns out that eclipses were happening in his 11th house then when Kurt died as well. So it's just activating some of these placements.

05:56:10 Speaker_01
And Taylor must have died pretty close to the Saturn return of Kurt's death, which itself was Saturn conjunct Dave's Venus. The other thing about all that is, of course, Dave and Kurt both had Mars in that first decan of Scorpio.

05:56:24 Speaker_01
Mars, of course, has it at the very beginning of Scorpio, getting ready to station retrograde. And Taylor Hawkins had Mars at four degrees Taurus.

05:56:34 Speaker_01
So there's some kind of element, you know, that the Mars that's involved in all these, in the three charts, Dave, and, you know, the two friends, all straddled this axis that we're talking about as well, all straddled the ruler of the fourth.

05:56:51 Speaker_00
Yeah, that makes sense. Two other random Dave Grohl facts. One of them that's funny, a few years ago before Taylor passed away, the Foo Fighters were putting out an album and they were recording it in this house

05:57:08 Speaker_00
and he decided to shoot a movie with his friends about a haunted house where Dave himself becomes possessed and then kills everybody. They called it Studio 666, and

05:57:22 Speaker_00
And the quote says, quote, members of the rock band Foo Fighters move into an Encino mansion steeped in grisly rock and roll history to record their much-anticipated 10th album.

05:57:34 Speaker_00
Once in the house, Dave finds himself grappling with supernatural forces that threaten both the completion of the album and the lives of the band members. And I thought that was a pretty funny, like, more

05:57:46 Speaker_00
manifestation of the ruler of the fourth house and the 11th and putting together a horror movie about a haunted house with your friends. I think that's good.

05:58:01 Speaker_00
All right, this is an example of somebody I know whose name is Lama Tsering Everest, and she's the head lama of a large residential spiritual community called a sangha near Sao Paulo, Brazil.

05:58:21 Speaker_00
And she has Virgo rising and Sagittarius on the fourth whole sign house, and the ruler of the fourth house is Jupiter, which is exalted in Cancer in the 11th house in a day chart.

05:58:35 Speaker_00
So it's a really well-placed Jupiter, and she's basically the head of a monastic community which

05:58:48 Speaker_00
has a shared Buddhist practice where members engage in Buddhist practices and spiritual practices and meditation together, including meditation and chanting and study.

05:58:59 Speaker_00
It creates a supportive environment for individual growth and mutual support and ethical living within the context of this spiritual living situation. I thought that was such a brilliant

05:59:14 Speaker_00
manifestation of this, because the sangha essentially acts as a spiritual family that supports individuals on a journey towards greater wisdom, compassion, and liberation. And And yeah, it was just a brilliant example of that.

05:59:31 Speaker_00
They built a temple that's connected with this community of people living there to support this work. And I thought it was a really brilliant manifestation of that ruler of the 4th and the 11th. Yep, yep. Fascinating. What a chart. All right.

05:59:52 Speaker_00
Moving on, the next example I have is Jane Goodall, who has Pisces on the 4th house and the ruler is Jupiter in the 11th.

06:00:03 Speaker_00
I realized about this is her Wikipedia bio opens with saying that, quote, she's considered the world's foremost expert on chimpanzees after 60 years of studying the social and family interactions of wild chimpanzees.

06:00:19 Speaker_00
So you're getting social from the 11th house, but also family from the 4th house. And Her chart essentially shows that she studies these archetypes and other species, and that's why the 11th house and fourth house shows up strongly.

06:00:35 Speaker_01
Yeah. I've studied her life and chart to some considerable degree. I've become really fascinated with it. Studying her life and work introduces an unexpected side component, astrologically speaking, in that

06:00:56 Speaker_01
She studied this group of chimps for years and years, the same group. And she witnessed births and basically the full lives of a number of chimps. And she knows what days those chimps were born. And the chimps have personalities.

06:01:14 Speaker_01
There's the aggressive ones. There's a whole sort of story to all that. And I never thought I would be that astrologer who starts casting charts for animals.

06:01:25 Speaker_01
But if you want to study Jane Goodall's life, the way I do astrology, where I look at all the people around the individual, well, then studying these chimps and the birthdays of these chimps is part of it.

06:01:38 Speaker_01
So it's a really, really interesting study, fascinating chart, and the whole story behind it.

06:01:46 Speaker_01
It's not unlike, in some ways, unlike Margaret Mead, whose chart is also really interesting to study in the sense that the young women who moved into sort of an unexplored and pioneering role in science that, you know, virtually hadn't existed until they came in and sort of invented it.

06:02:06 Speaker_01
Because that's what Jane Goodall did in some ways is sort of, you know, invented the modern way of doing these sort of animal studies. She didn't have a degree when she got started. She simply had her passion for chimps.

06:02:23 Speaker_01
And I won't go into the whole long story of how she got the position, but it's a really unique thing.

06:02:30 Speaker_00
And the way she did... That's what I'd like to introduce is how she got there. That's what ties it into the topic of the fourth house, which is she grew up very interested in animals and with nature.

06:02:44 Speaker_00
At age 12, she founded a nature club called the Alligator Societies. But then she grew up, and in May of 1956, she had a friend who invited her to visit their family farm in Kenya, and this was it.

06:03:01 Speaker_00
This was the crucial turning point in her life because she had an opportunity finally to go where she always wanted to go in order to study animals in Africa. So she goes to this family farm of her friend in Kenya.

06:03:16 Speaker_00
And then it was her friend who introduced her and suggested that she talk to the famed anthropologist, Dr. Louis Leakey. And he ended up hiring Jane as his secretary and set her up to study chimpanzees in Tanzania.

06:03:31 Speaker_00
And then that's the genesis of her entire story, but it entirely hinges on this one event of a friend of hers that invites her out to live for a period of time in Africa. And that's her

06:03:43 Speaker_00
ruler of the fourth house in the 11th house of friends, co-present with the degree of the MC in the 11th house.

06:03:50 Speaker_01
Right. And just to add to that, I have the chart for the day that she arrived in Nairobi, and it happened to be her 23rd birthday.

06:04:00 Speaker_01
The day that she first stepped, she'd first sort of sailed to Cape Town and then I think caught a train all the way up to Nairobi.

06:04:09 Speaker_01
But long story short, most of this journey and the invitation to take the journey happened when she was in an 11th house perfection year, because you're in an 11th house perfection year at the age of 22.

06:04:19 Speaker_01
And then right when she arrived there, she entered the 23rd, the house of wild animals.

06:04:26 Speaker_00
Yeah. Perfect.

06:04:30 Speaker_00
So other things she's done where it's relevant is she's done work setting up environmental organizations, and I think that's important as well because we talked in part one about the fourth house sometimes being the environment, the earth, environmentalism, and the 11th house is organizations.

06:04:48 Speaker_00
So that's how that's coming through. It's also interesting, her mom traveled with her to Africa for that first trip, which is crucial. So there's another fourth house component that came through there as well.

06:05:07 Speaker_01
Yeah, she first visited Jane on the first trip before she was even doing the observation of the chimps.

06:05:16 Speaker_01
But then when she was given the chance to observe the chimps, the people handing out the grant were at first reluctant to have a single young woman, you know, go into the jungles of Africa alone.

06:05:27 Speaker_01
And so her mother volunteered to be her, you know, quote unquote, chaperone or whatever you would call it, you know, her guide or supervisor or whatever.

06:05:35 Speaker_01
And she stayed for the first few months of this study, but very, very soon Jane wound up making really important discoveries.

06:05:44 Speaker_01
I was gonna say there's another element in terms of how she sort of invented this work, if you will, because chimps are quite territorial. And at first they were kind of suspicious of her, but she just sort of sat down and let them get used to her.

06:05:58 Speaker_01
And eventually that's what she did. She just sort of sat and watched them. So it's a very sort of like fourth house way of examining an 11th house, if you will.

06:06:07 Speaker_01
She's sitting, you know, there on the ground in the jungle, just observing, just watching this community of chimpanzees, you know, watching and observing and being as unobtrusive as possible, you know, just letting them get used to her.

06:06:22 Speaker_01
So that that whole combination when you think of it, of fourth and 11th house is fascinating because you're right it really sort of it summarizes everything that the way that she did this work.

06:06:35 Speaker_01
The other thing she did that was sort of unscholarly are considered to be unscholarly but she. she gave the chimps names rather than numbers, because she hadn't been, you know, to university yet to study, she would be sent later.

06:06:47 Speaker_01
But, you know, because she really was just coming into this raw, she did things that would have been considered faux pas by the, quote unquote, serious scholars at the time.

06:06:57 Speaker_02
Right.

06:06:57 Speaker_00
Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's crucial because ultimately what I came up with is that she essentially went and lived at a national park and became friends with the chimpanzees.

06:07:09 Speaker_00
So that's the tie together also with the 4th and 11th house component where she shared space with the chimpanzees, she climbed trees, she mimicked their behaviors.

06:07:19 Speaker_00
But most importantly, this helped her to build trust and gain acceptance within their social groups. And then understanding the chimpanzee's complex social interactions was actually a core component of her overall research goals.

06:07:35 Speaker_00
So I think that's the other part of this as well. And part of that involved things like observing family structures where she observed the intricate family relationships within chimpanzee communities.

06:07:50 Speaker_00
but also looked at other things like warfare and violence and aggression between different chimpanzee groups and different things like that.

06:07:58 Speaker_01
Yeah.

06:07:59 Speaker_01
And again, in a lot of cases, these studies, I mean, not the initial chimps that she met in 1960, but once you get into her work in the 70s and 80s, you're examining the entire lives of these chimps and getting to know like, you know, they're born at such and such day and that

06:08:15 Speaker_01
you know, the alpha male challenge that, you know, was challenged on this day and the, you know, a war ensued. So it's a really well-documented history of this community, you know, which is what makes it sort of interesting to me as an astrologer.

06:08:29 Speaker_01
Like I said, I didn't think I would, you know, want to study animals astrologically, it didn't seem feasible, but now suddenly there's this opportunity that, yeah, I could take Jane Goodall's work and actually do that. So, you know, And so I am.

06:08:42 Speaker_01
I did have another thing to say, but go ahead.

06:08:51 Speaker_00
I was going to wrap it up and just say, her research on chimpanzee social networks revolutionized our understanding of them, but it also gave us insight into our own history and into the history of humanity and how some of our own societies formed, essentially, by studying theirs and by focusing especially on the complexities of chimpanzee social interactions

06:09:18 Speaker_00
It didn't just expand our understanding of them and nature, but it also deepened our understanding of ourselves and our place in the natural world, which then ties more into the fourth house as well.

06:09:31 Speaker_01
Yeah, brilliant.

06:09:32 Speaker_01
I only wanted to add that, like Elizabeth Taylor and Jimi Hendrix, we have a Pisces fourth house here, and we have someone who really, again, sort of divided her life between two worlds, if you will, you know, England and the jungle of Tanzania.

06:09:49 Speaker_01
And in fact, I think she spends most of her life traveling and giving talks and stuff like that.

06:09:56 Speaker_00
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right. So let's see, let's move on the next one with the ruler of the mutual reception actually between the 4th and the 11th is Mary Wilson from the Supremes, who we talked about earlier, who's a singer.

06:10:15 Speaker_00
She formed a group with Florence Ballard because they first met when they were living in the same housing project in Detroit, and they met as teenagers, and then later essentially became two-thirds of the legendary Motown group, the Supremes, along with Diana Ross.

06:10:33 Speaker_00
then they ended up living together a lot while they were touring.

06:10:36 Speaker_00
But I thought it was fascinating that the entire genesis of this incredibly famous singing group was just that she met this friend because they lived in the same area, basically, or in the same housing project.

06:10:50 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah. And for that matter, a lot of the Motown acts were from very close by neighborhoods to each other in Detroit. So that whole talent pool is really just covers a few square miles.

06:11:05 Speaker_01
But certainly, yeah, the Supremes are totally like three high school friends and neighbors who rose to fame together.

06:11:14 Speaker_02
Yeah.

06:11:15 Speaker_00
So she has Taurus rising, Leo fourth house ruled by the Sun, which is placed in Pisces in the 11th, and Jupiter's really in the 11th house, and it's placed in Leo in the fourth. All right.

06:11:30 Speaker_00
The final celebrity example is actually, I have the ruler of the fourth and the 11th conjunct the midheaven, like I was talking about earlier.

06:11:39 Speaker_00
I was reflecting on this as I was preparing this episode, and I remembered that the day I turned 18 years old, I moved out of my mom's house, and I signed a lease and moved in with a friend literally the day that I turned old enough to.

06:11:55 Speaker_00
And then later on in that year, other friends moved in with us and crashed with us during the course of that year.

06:12:02 Speaker_00
Then later in life, I moved out and lived at a translation project for two years where I also lived with friends, and that was when you and I lived basically next to each other for a couple of years.

06:12:15 Speaker_01
Yep, those were 11th house times, for sure. Yeah, that life we had together was very 11th house.

06:12:23 Speaker_00
Oh, yeah, because friends of ours would fly out periodically for conferences and for workshops, and then we'd see everybody and host everybody for a period of time before they would leave. So that was very fourth and 11th housey.

06:12:39 Speaker_00
And then finally, my current living situation, the only reason I live on this block that I currently do is because of my friend, Sean, where I moved over here and I crashed on his couch, and now I've been here for 15 years living in the same area.

06:12:57 Speaker_00
But my alternative is I had to move, and I was about to have to move across the country. I almost moved and lived with our mutual friend, Alan White, but then

06:13:09 Speaker_00
I was literally trying to ship my books out to Alan's house, and then something kept stopping me from shipping the books out there.

06:13:17 Speaker_00
One day, I tried to ship them three or four times, and I kept running into issues where the post office kept saying, no, you can't ship this for minor, bizarre issues.

06:13:26 Speaker_00
I had a sock that I had put in the box, and they said, you can't ship media mail if there's anything else in the box, and they turned me away.

06:13:36 Speaker_00
Then because of that delay, I was mysteriously called by a friend, and he told me he had a couch I could crash on. So I went and stayed with him and then stayed in Denver as a result of that.

06:13:47 Speaker_00
So it was a really important turning point that had to do with staying with a friend for a year, where my life

06:13:54 Speaker_00
and where I'm at now just hinged on such a small thing of living with a friend and moving out to live where I did near you for two years was very similar to that as well in terms of how that happened and how we met on MySpace and everything else.

06:14:09 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Totally. And I remember when we first met in Seattle, I crashed on your couch in Seattle, as I recall, didn't I?

06:14:18 Speaker_00
Maybe. Yeah. Which was funny because I had a house in the college area and there was a bunch of other college people living there.

06:14:26 Speaker_00
Even today, part of the continuing manifestation of that is I lived into my current place and I have people out from time to time and host them so that we can record podcasts together, and I basically have friends out to Denver.

06:14:41 Speaker_00
to record interviews together at my house, essentially.

06:14:45 Speaker_00
So I continue to have that connection of that theme between the ruler of the fourth house being Venus in the 11th whole sign house, but also co-present with the MC so that it's also kind of tied in with career matters as well.

06:14:59 Speaker_00
Yeah, the astrological flophouse, Shay Chris. Exactly. All right. So let's talk about some listener examples. These are pretty straightforward. So

06:15:10 Speaker_00
The first one, they said, I have the ruler of the fourth house and the 11th house, and I love hosting and feeding friends at home. Friends are my family. That's pretty literal. The next one says, ruler of the fourth house is Mercury in my 11th house.

06:15:30 Speaker_00
In Capricorn, I feel like my friends are my family more than I feel like my family is my family.

06:15:36 Speaker_00
I just went through Hurricane Helene in Asheville, and especially the first week, the only thing that made me feel grounded and safe at all was my friends and community. Otherwise, it felt like the ground was dropped out from beneath me.

06:15:49 Speaker_00
Also, my dad tends to have big community and is very well-liked by large groups of people who by proxy are supportive of me to an extent. Saturn and the Sun are also in the 11th house. So everything that could possibly represent dad is in that house.

06:16:06 Speaker_00
I now live in a house that I really enjoy for the first time, and I really love having friends over and gathering in my home.

06:16:16 Speaker_00
Also, I just remembered I wrote a poetry book in 2016, and it had a section called Places I Never Lived, which were all about my friends' homes and the way that they sort of became my home or places of safety for me.

06:16:29 Speaker_00
As a kid, I spent a lot of time at friends' houses, too. So I thought that was amazing and insightful. The next one says, my fourth house ruler, Saturn, is in my 11th house, and my friends and community have always been my family.

06:16:44 Speaker_00
I'm very distant from my actual family, which is very small. recurring theme. Another person, fourth house, Taurus, Venus, and Sagittarius in the 11th. So that's my chart.

06:16:58 Speaker_00
And they say, I would say a big part of my sense of home was constructing webs of friends in my head, which would make me feel safe. I also have a home online for the most part.

06:17:08 Speaker_00
One more thing, I decided where to live and where to go, even abroad, based on where my friends or romantic relationships are, not based on my family. The next one says, Mars is the ruler of my fourth house in the 11th. It also rules my ninth.

06:17:25 Speaker_00
The fourth is the house of my father. My father is a Gemini with Aries rising. My mother is a Scorpio rising, like my fourth house. etc. Another funny thing is that I recently noticed that I tend to be quite tough and unforgiving on friends.

06:17:43 Speaker_00
As I discussed this with my parents, and they felt sorry for me, they think I inherited their bad habit of being quite tough, especially verbally, Mars and Gemini, with people and losing friends or damaging relationships because of the heat of the moment.

06:18:00 Speaker_00
So I think they're talking about Mars in the 11th house in a day chart, it sounds like.

06:18:09 Speaker_00
So that would be interesting in terms of inheriting things from your parents or way of dealing with people that then negatively impacts specific relationships in your life, like with friends?

06:18:21 Speaker_00
The next one, ruler of the fourth house, Saturn, and the 11th house, Leo combust the Sun. My parents were very strict when I was growing up, and I couldn't have friends over and couldn't stay with friends until I was 16. Makes sense. One more.

06:18:40 Speaker_00
This person says, I have Libra fourth house with Venus in the 11th, and the relationship I have with both parents resembles much more of a friendship.

06:18:48 Speaker_00
In the best cases, I consider them my closest friends, and we have a lot of lighthearted, unconventional moments together. In the worst cases, they have absolutely no boundaries with me and have always overshared.

06:19:00 Speaker_00
Venus is also in Taurus, and their children's appearances have always been incredibly important to both of my parents. They're both somewhat superficial and very much interested in outward presentation.

06:19:11 Speaker_00
My mother is also a cosmetologist with two personal planets in Libra and very much embodies the archetype.

06:19:18 Speaker_00
So I thought that was interesting of a delineation of ruler of the fourth house of parents and the 11th house of friends, and your parents treat you more like friends rather than children.

06:19:29 Speaker_02
CB Yeah.

06:19:30 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. And that is the last example of the 11th house. If you're a fan of the podcast and you'd like to support the production of future episodes, then consider becoming a patron through my page on patreon.com.

06:19:42 Speaker_00
In exchange, you'll get access to a bunch of benefits such as early access to new episodes, the ability to attend live recordings, access to the monthly electional astrology podcast,

06:19:52 Speaker_00
access to another exclusive podcast called The Secret Astrology Podcast that's only available to patrons, or even get your name listed in the credits at the end of each episode. For more information, visit patreon.com slash astrology podcast.

06:20:08 Speaker_00
Alright, so now we're going to transition to talking about the final house, which is the 12th house, and what it looks like when the ruler of the fourth is located in the 12th house or vice versa.

06:20:18 Speaker_00
So my first chart example is one I actually originally discovered in the second house episode, and this is the birth chart of King Farouk, who was functionally the last king of Egypt.

06:20:36 Speaker_00
He inherited the kingship from his father, but then he was ousted in a military coup and forced into exile. I think this is fascinating because on the one hand, he has

06:20:49 Speaker_00
Libra rising and the ruler of the Ascendant is Venus in the fourth house of the home, the family, and the living situation. And he, of course, inherits the kingship from his father.

06:21:00 Speaker_00
But then with the ruler of the fourth house being Saturn in the 12th house,

06:21:05 Speaker_00
gets overthrown in a military coup and literally has to spend the rest of his life in exile outside of his country as a result of essentially enemies who were against him, which is an ancient 12th house topic, which sometimes in modern times, we don't think about that as being relevant to those ancient delineations of enemies, but sometimes they can really come up in very literal ways when it comes to the 12th house.

06:21:35 Speaker_01
I believe he was 32 when he was ousted from office. Bringing in that, oh yeah, because his Mars, he was born 32 days before Mars went retrograde. And so that Mars was stationed in retrograde when he was ousted out of office. That's the thing.

06:21:53 Speaker_01
And then the synodic return at the same time. How is that relevant or what are you connecting that with? Yeah, no, I'm sorry. I thought I was connecting something that I wasn't.

06:22:04 Speaker_00
I should have just stopped. Okay, no problem. I mean, I do know I did talk about in the second house episode how Mars was going through a second at the time and he lost all of his possessions. He famously was like a hoarder of lots of different things.

06:22:18 Speaker_00
Yeah.

06:22:19 Speaker_01
It's a very powerful Mars because the transiting Mars would be going retrograde in Scorpio when he has progressed Mars is stationing retrograde and yeah, he was thrown out of office or dethroned.

06:22:31 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. When I was researching this, the next example that I found, I came across

06:22:39 Speaker_00
is the birth chart of Wendy Yoshimiro, who has the ruler of the 12th house and the 4th, so Scorpio rising, Libra 12th house ruled by Venus, which is located in Aquarius in the 4th house.

06:22:55 Speaker_00
And Wendy was a Japanese-American who was born in a Japanese internment camp for Japanese-Americans during World War II, where her parents were incarcerated there despite being American-born, and all of their family were American citizens by birth.

06:23:19 Speaker_00
Essentially, the delineation of the 12th house can sometimes have to do with prison or jail or constraints, and the 4th house can represent the parents, but also the home and living situation, and essentially being born at that time, living with her parents, living in what was functionally like a jail.

06:23:37 Speaker_00
This had a profound and lasting impact on her, and it shaped her worldview, it fueled her later activism, and also influenced her art later on. where she's an artist now?

06:23:52 Speaker_01
Yeah, well, I recognized her name because I recognized her as being the woman who was arrested alongside Patty Hearst in 1975, where, of course, they were living and hiding.

06:24:05 Speaker_01
Patty Hearst was an heiress who was kidnapped by political radicals in Berkeley, and she wound up sort of joining them, basically. She was caught on security cameras, being part of a bank robbery.

06:24:19 Speaker_01
And so she went from being wanted as a kidnap victim to being, you know, a wanted fugitive of the law.

06:24:25 Speaker_01
Yeah, over a year later, she and Wendy Yoshimura were arrested, I think, in Pennsylvania, the other end of the country, after being on the lam for a long time.

06:24:34 Speaker_01
So even in that instance, Wendy Yoshimura was, you know, really living out that ruler of the fourth, ruler of the 12th and the fourth thing.

06:24:44 Speaker_00
Yeah, for sure. I saw something that said that her role with this group was primarily involved providing safe houses and logistical support, which I thought was an interesting manifestation of the fourth house placements.

06:24:56 Speaker_00
And then interestingly, during her trial, there were Japanese Americans who sympathized with her family's experience and how that had influenced their experience during World War II, who actually gave $150,000 in legal aid to help with her legal defense.

06:25:16 Speaker_00
So after her release from jail, she's focused on her art career, and she's actually a successful watercolor painter that's known for her still-life works. I looked at some of her work, and it's actually really brilliant. Yeah, so that is that example.

06:25:33 Speaker_00
Moving on, one that I know is somebody I knew, the astrologer Robert Zoller. Zoller had The fourth house is Gemini, and it's ruled by Mercury, which is in Aquarius in the 12th house.

06:25:49 Speaker_00
One of the things I remember is I did this interview with him before he passed away, and this is a quote that I have. It says, It says, quote, I was pretty sick as a kid. I had asthma and I couldn't participate in sports as much as I would have liked.

06:26:10 Speaker_00
So I ended up staying at home and reading just about everything I could get my hands on. So by the time I finished with sixth grade, I'd read all of the Celtic myths, all of the Germanic myths, all of the Greek myths and legends.

06:26:24 Speaker_00
And in the course of doing that, I came across something called folklore. And folklore was primarily the Grimm Brothers or one of the Grimm Brothers. I forget which one now. But anyway, I read all of that stuff.

06:26:36 Speaker_00
And in there, I learned about magicians and unicorns and things of the sort. But the magicians and the astrologers and the alchemists really intrigued me.

06:26:46 Speaker_00
So it wasn't until I was in the 10th grade, about 16 years of age, that I was able to get my first book on astrology. And that was Edward Lindo's book, Astrology for Everyone. I think that was the title of it.

06:26:57 Speaker_00
He also has the ruler of the ninth house of astrology and the 12th house.

06:27:03 Speaker_00
One, I wanted to highlight this as a story because basically his struggles with health and illness left him having to stay home for much of his childhood, which made him very widely read, but also led to him discovering astrology and starting to study that.

06:27:21 Speaker_00
And then later in life, he developed Parkinson's disease, which also largely left him homebound later for the last like two decades of his life, essentially, basically, where he could only stay at home and study and things like that.

06:27:38 Speaker_00
So that was a major element of his life. And you can listen to this as an excerpt from an interview that I did with him on The Astrology Podcast.

06:27:49 Speaker_01
Yeah, he was quite a guy. I mean, brilliant mind, wonderfully prickly personality, but yeah, just full of information. And we were lucky to get to spend the amount of time with him that we did when he lived alongside us in Cumberland. Right.

06:28:14 Speaker_01
For like a year?

06:28:16 Speaker_00
Yeah.

06:28:16 Speaker_01
I mean, that was another sort of 12th, fourth thing for him was, because of his health condition, he kind of bounced around from home to home in the last years of his life.

06:28:27 Speaker_01
He went from Vancouver to Cumberland, and then he wound up here in South Africa, I think in Johannesburg as well.

06:28:35 Speaker_00
Right. Yeah. That was the first day that I met him He asked me to take him out to get food, and I remember helping him to eat pancakes. I realized that it was one of the most surreal days of my life.

06:28:49 Speaker_00
I was feeding Robert Zoller pancakes, one of the most famous astrologers in the world, that year of living with him. learning some things and having those interactions was really striking.

06:29:02 Speaker_00
But yeah, it was definitely something similar to as we were talking about with Frida Kahlo with the sixth house example, ruler of the fourth and the sixth, a similar sort of manifestation like that.

06:29:15 Speaker_01
Yeah. My favorite last, just before I left, I took Robert for a drive through West Virginia, where we lived in Cumberland was just across the river. So yeah, I'm just thinking about that wonderful day driving with him around West Virginia.

06:29:31 Speaker_00
Good times.

06:29:32 Speaker_01
Yeah.

06:29:33 Speaker_00
All right. Moving on, next example. This is the birth chart of John Ramsey. I know I talked about He's the father of John B'nai Ramsey, and I know we talked about her in Part One. I also want to talk about his chart.

06:29:52 Speaker_00
I don't think I did in the last one, but what's striking about his chart is that he has Virgo rising, Mercury's the ruler of the Ascendant, and it's placed in the 4th, and the ruler of the 4th house of the home and living situation is placed in the 12th.

06:30:07 Speaker_00
It's Jupiter in the 12th house, where we also find Pluto in the North Node.

06:30:14 Speaker_00
What happened is probably the worst event of his life is that his daughter was murdered at his home on Christmas at the age of six, and he was the one that actually found her in the basement after reporting her missing to the police.

06:30:30 Speaker_00
His daughter also had the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth, as I talked about in part one. So initially, the family was considered to be suspects, but then later was exonerated through DNA. So much later though, much later. Much later, yeah.

06:30:47 Speaker_00
He went through a long period of being evidently falsely accused of having murdered his daughter, having been connected or involved in some ways. And there's still a mystery surrounding her death because her killer has never been found.

06:31:02 Speaker_00
And he was recently in the news earlier this year for saying that some of the evidence was never actually DNA tested, and he was trying to advocate for it to be tested. But I wanted to

06:31:19 Speaker_00
mention this example because although it's an extreme example, it's just a scenario of what if one of the worst things that ever happened in your life happened in your home of finding a child who had passed away, who had been murdered by presumably an intruder of some sort?

06:31:37 Speaker_01
Yeah.

06:31:39 Speaker_00
Yeah. All right. So that's that example. The next one is Lisa Schein pointed out that both Prince Harry and Prince William, even though they have different rising signs, they both have the fourth house ruler in the 12th house.

06:32:00 Speaker_00
So this is Prince William's chart. It's Sagittarius rising.

06:32:06 Speaker_00
Pisces is the fourth whole sign house, and it's ruled by Jupiter, which is in Scorpio in the 12th house, conjunct the degree of the Midheaven because London is so far north that you can actually get the Midheaven over into the 12th.

06:32:20 Speaker_01
Yeah, he's born on the solstice, so it really has to be that close to the solstice to have a 12th house midheaven in England, but it can happen.

06:32:30 Speaker_00
Right. So that's his chart ruler of the 4th and the 12th, and then his brother, Prince Harry, has Capricorn rising.

06:32:38 Speaker_00
Aries is the 4th whole sign house, and the ruler is Mars, which is in Sagittarius in the 12th conjunct Uranus and co-present with Neptune.

06:32:49 Speaker_00
So on the one hand, this is manifested where they both, of course, famously lost their mother, tragically, Princess Diana, in a car crash in the 1990s, and that sense of loss that occurred for both of them when it comes to the parents. But then also,

06:33:10 Speaker_00
It's striking the contrast with respect to their subsequent experience of family and of the father and of parents and things like that in terms of

06:33:24 Speaker_00
the one hand, William being groomed to take over from Charles and become king someday, having the ruler of the fourth house conjunct the Midheaven and Scorpio there, right on the Midheaven, versus Harry's experience and this sense of essentially exile where Harry's now left the family and even left the country for the most part as living abroad.

06:33:52 Speaker_00
with Ares, with Mars ruling the 4th house and being placed in the 12th, not on the Midheaven and not really mitigated very much.

06:34:01 Speaker_00
There's a lot there that's very interesting, but it's interesting both the commonalities of both brothers having the ruler of the 4th and the 12th, but also some of the differences. Indeed. Indeed. It's pretty wild. Yeah. All right, two more examples.

06:34:22 Speaker_00
First one. Pablo Picasso. We talked about him extensively in Part 1, but I wanted to return to him here because we talked about how he has Leo rising and the Sun in Scorpio in the 4th whole sign house. He has the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th.

06:34:38 Speaker_00
But interestingly, his 4th house is Scorpio, so it's ruled by Mars, which is actually in Cancer in the 12th house. And there's a few really interesting ways that that manifested that I think helped to expand our understanding of both houses.

06:34:54 Speaker_00
in interesting ways. One of the things that comes up with the fourth house is death, but also things that happen after you die. What's interesting is there was a lot of tragedy and conflict subsequent to his death. One thing that happened is that

06:35:15 Speaker_00
His grandson ended up committing suicide in 1973, shortly after Picasso's death, because he was turned away from attending Picasso's funeral by Picasso's second wife.

06:35:31 Speaker_00
His wife at the time turned the grandson away from the funeral, and the grandson was so distraught that he ended up drinking a bunch of bleach and then committing suicide as a result of not being able to attend his grandfather's funeral.

06:35:46 Speaker_00
So that's a really crazy and extreme scenario there, but yeah, difficulty with things literally surrounding the person's funeral. Then in addition to that, one of his

06:36:06 Speaker_00
Like one of the women that he had an affair with basically for many years, and he also had a child with her, lived in the vain hope that Picasso would one day marry her.

06:36:19 Speaker_00
And then when he died, she was so distraught that she ended up hanging herself a few years after his death, and she was one of his most famous supposedly muses, or she's called one of his muses, as well as the mother of his daughter, Maya.

06:36:37 Speaker_00
And she just had this hope that he would eventually marry her. But despite their passionate love affair and the birth of their child, Picasso never left his wife for her. And this unfulfilled hope… Hold on a second. There we go. Yeah.

06:36:59 Speaker_00
This unfulfilled hope that was coupled with the pain of Picasso's death deeply affected her so that she tragically ended up taking her own life a few years later.

06:37:12 Speaker_01
And then finally, I was just going to say, like Picasso's Mars is 22 days from going retrograde. So that he's got a very slow Mars about to go retrograde.

06:37:22 Speaker_01
And the woman you're talking about, Marie-Thérèse Walter, was also born just before a Mars retrograde in Pisces. She was born in 1909. So there's a whole sort of like, even the person you're talking about in question had a natal aspect that really

06:37:39 Speaker_01
mirrors the same one that Picasso has between the 4th and the 12th. This dynamic of sun and a water sign, and Mars about to go retrograde in another water sign.

06:37:52 Speaker_00
Got it. And then the last thing is that Picasso died without leaving a will, even though he left behind this vast fortune in art and property and assets.

06:38:06 Speaker_00
This led to a lengthy and bitter legal battle amongst his heirs, including his wife, his children, and his grandchildren.

06:38:15 Speaker_00
The legal battles and the family disputes surrounding Picasso's estate continued for years after his death and cast a shadow over his legacy and impacted the lives of his descendants.

06:38:30 Speaker_00
I thought that was really interesting in terms of ruler of the fourth house and the end of life and what happens after the life and a conflict surrounding one's will and one's legacy.

06:38:41 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah. And he was just, he was, you know, this destructive thing that happened after his death. I mean, it was kind of like that when he was alive too.

06:38:50 Speaker_01
You know, he was a great artist, but it was, he was kind of like Trump, anyone who got close to him wound up just getting burned or, you know, getting thrown under the bus somehow.

06:39:03 Speaker_00
Okay.

06:39:06 Speaker_00
Yeah, so the last thing I thought was interesting that might be connected with this ruler of the 4th and the 12th is that his most famous painting is Guernica, which is about the bombing of a town in Spain by Nazi Germany and fascist Italy during the Spanish Civil War.

06:39:25 Speaker_00
It basically depicts a war crime and the death of civilians, mainly women and children, and he painted it at home.

06:39:34 Speaker_00
It helped to bring attention to the Spanish Civil War, but it was also depicting something that was essentially like a tragedy or a war crime. There's something about that here. Since he was from Spain, he

06:39:49 Speaker_00
And it's depicting something that happened in his homeland, but it was something that happened that was like a tragedy or that was done by enemies or represented a great sense of loss and something dark with Mars in the 12th house.

06:40:04 Speaker_01
Yeah, the great story is that during the Second World War, the Nazis came into Picasso's studio and they looked at Guernica and they said, did you do this? And he said, no, you did this. Or yeah, something to that effect.

06:40:22 Speaker_01
Yeah, Guernica's, you know, really intense. Again, that Mars, when the bombing happened, it was four days after Jack Nicholson was born. We were talking about his chart.

06:40:32 Speaker_01
So you had Mars retrograde and Sagittarius conjunct Nicholson's moon, or sorry, Picasso's moon rather, when the bombing happened. So, you know, it's, yeah, like an assault on the homeland and it inspires that painting, which is one of his most famous.

06:40:50 Speaker_00
All right, and the last celebrity chart example that I wanted to share for this section on the 12th house is the birth chart of Julian Lennon, who was the son of John Lennon, who was the famous singer and musician and songwriter in The Beatles.

06:41:05 Speaker_00
So Julian Lennon was born with Taurus rising, Leo is the fourth whole sign house, and the ruler of the fourth house is the Sun, which is placed in Aries in the 12th house.

06:41:17 Speaker_00
And the ruler of the 12th house is Mars, which is placed in the 4th house itself. So there's a mutual reception between the Sun and Mars between the 4th and 12th house.

06:41:27 Speaker_00
And this is a day chart, so Mars is actually the most difficult planet in the chart there in the 4th. So the story with this is that

06:41:36 Speaker_00
When Julian was pretty young, his parents divorced when he was five years old because his father ran off with another woman. After that point, his father wasn't in his life much, and the loss of his father was a sore spot for him throughout his life.

06:41:55 Speaker_00
Then when he was 17 years old, his father was murdered in December of 1980, The North Node was actually in Leo in the fourth house that year, so eclipses were actually taking place in his fourth house the year that his father was murdered.

06:42:14 Speaker_00
So early on, he had a lot of anger and resentment towards his dad. I have one quote where he said, I've never really wanted to know the truth about how dad was with me.

06:42:26 Speaker_00
There was some very negative stuff talked about me, like when he said I'd come out of a whiskey bottle on a Saturday night, stuff like that.

06:42:35 Speaker_00
One of the things with this placement is that he was even excluded from his father's will, and he ended up having to sue his father's wife, Yoko Ono, and the estate.

06:42:50 Speaker_00
This turned into a protracted legal battle that lasted for years, where he ended up having to fight for what he felt like he deserved.

06:43:00 Speaker_00
So they eventually settled in 1966, and the South Node was in Aries that year, putting eclipses in his 12th house, so on the ruler that's there. So one of the things that happened around that time also that's connected with that is

06:43:27 Speaker_00
adding to the tension, Yoko Ono auctioned off some of John Lennon's personal items, including letters that Julian had written to his father.

06:43:37 Speaker_00
Julian actually ended up—he had to use some of his settlement money in order to buy these letters back from Yoko Ono, because she refused to give them to him.

06:43:49 Speaker_00
So by 2009, he seems to have come to a better place with things, though, and I found this quote where he says, I realized if I continued to feel that anger and bitterness towards my dad, I would have a constant cloud hanging over my head for my whole life.

06:44:06 Speaker_00
After recording the song Lucy, almost by nature, it felt right to fulfill the cycle, forgive dad, put the pain, anger, and bitterness in the past, and to focus and appreciate the good things.

06:44:20 Speaker_00
Writing is therapy for me, and for the first time in my life, I'm actually feeling it and believing it. It has also allowed me to actually embrace Dad and the Beatles.

06:44:31 Speaker_00
So I thought that was just an amazing way to end it and come full circle where it's like he went through and had a lot of pain, a lot of difficulty, a lot of trauma, and other things.

06:44:46 Speaker_00
But also, I'm sure he's gone through different phases and different periods since that quotes from 2009, but coming to periods of acceptance and know, okayness with things and releasing the past at a certain point as well.

06:45:04 Speaker_01
Yeah. What a crazy way to come into the world, on the tail of the whole Beatles phenomenon and everything associated with it. And all the money involved and not being included, it's just bizarre.

06:45:25 Speaker_00
Right. And the thing about, because I think you were the one originally that told me about the thing about him having to buy back the letters and that's a thing that happened. Yeah. I don't think I was the one who told you, but that did happen. Okay.

06:45:36 Speaker_00
Yeah. Maybe not. All right. So yeah, that's the last example in terms of the celebrity charts. Now just a few, some listener submissions. And I was actually surprised at the number of 12,000 listener submissions, but there are a lot of good ones.

06:45:50 Speaker_00
So I'll go through them real quick. Good. All right.

06:45:53 Speaker_00
The first one, so the ruler of the fourth and the 12th, she listed several points and said, first, father number one was a KGB officer, which for confidentiality reasons I was made known about when I was 12 when he switched to teaching in the academy and it was okay to tell.

06:46:13 Speaker_00
Two, he was often either away or he was sleeping. Three, he had a drinking problem, and four, he went to jail for drunken driving later in life when he retired.

06:46:29 Speaker_00
So a lot of different versions of challenging things with the ruler of the 4th and the 12th there, as well as a secrecy element, which are both 4th and 12th house things. CB Next one, fourth house Capricorn and Saturn in the 12th.

06:46:46 Speaker_00
My father was handicapped in the late stage of his life, and my family and I had to spend nearly 15 years taking care of him. This involved multiple visits to hospitals, which completely removed my fear of medicine and hospitals.

06:47:00 Speaker_00
So yeah, sickness or long-term care, and especially hospitals, can come up in the 12th house. The Sun in the 12th, Ares rules my fourth. My father died of an overdose. Mars and the Sun have mutual reception."

06:47:18 Speaker_00
Okay, so there's a mutual reception between the fourth and the twelfth, and the father died of an overdose. Next one, ruler of the fourth, Venus in the twelfth. Having roommates never appealed to me.

06:47:29 Speaker_00
Even when I was living with my mom, I'd always want to be alone in my room. I only have roommates now because of an incident that coincided with the Mars-Uranus conjunction on my IC.

06:47:41 Speaker_00
So I think that's a really important element because sometimes isolation and solitude can come up as major themes with the 12th house, and we'll see that as a recurring theme.

06:47:54 Speaker_00
All right, the next one, Sagittarius' fourth house, Jupiter in Leo in the 12th. I traveled with my parents abroad all the time, but it was unbearable because they fought all the time, yet wanted me around all the time.

06:48:07 Speaker_00
I felt imprisoned at home, and whenever we went out, now I can only feel at home in solitude.

06:48:15 Speaker_00
I thought that was really interesting, some of those different feelings of imprisonment at home, traveling but not having a good time, and then also feeling at home when you're alone.

06:48:27 Speaker_00
Next one, Taurus, fourth house ruler in the 12th, opposed by Saturn. I exiled myself from an abusive family. It's conjunct Mercury. I enjoy the quiet solitude to write and do artwork at home.

06:48:41 Speaker_00
Next, I have Sagittarius on the fourth and the ruler is Jupiter at zero degrees of Leo in the twelfth. My moon is in the fourth. I had a lot of personal freedom growing up and spent a lot of time reading. I enjoy solitude in my home.

06:48:54 Speaker_00
My father was an alcoholic and my mother raised me and my sister on her own. Next, Ruler of the Fourth is in the Twelfth. I've moved around a lot, never been able to buy a house.

06:49:07 Speaker_00
Wherever I live, I end up feeling isolated and somehow separate from everyone else. People seem reluctant to visit me. I always have to visit them. Mostly, I've lived alone or with a partner, but felt irritated because my sanctuary was invaded.

06:49:25 Speaker_00
Next, Capricorn in the 4th was Saturn in the 12th and Jupiter in the 4th in Capricorn. When I was 14, I stayed with a friend for a couple of months in the summer so that I could go to summer school, and then my mom didn't let me come back home.

06:49:38 Speaker_00
I lived with a friend and later my grandmother until I was 16 and left town for good after graduating high school early. My dad died a couple of days before my 17th birthday. I would and still do visit family but remain an outsider.

06:49:54 Speaker_00
I spend a lot of time alone at home. Next, Mars and Cancer in the 12th, ruling the 4th. Pluto's also in my 4th. My deepest wounds came from emotional trauma and parentification inflicted on me by my father.

06:50:12 Speaker_00
Next, Leo is on my fourth and the sun is in my twelfth. I grew up with father unknown and no chance I can see of even finding out or ever finding out who my father is. I'm 54 now, so that cake is baked. Next, Mars in the 12th and Cancer.

06:50:32 Speaker_00
I can get defensive and passive-aggressive with my mom. I move to a different continent after college, but still keep a close relationship from distance.

06:50:42 Speaker_00
My Uranus there training my Mars so that it's a helpful aspect maybe to keep the relationship going, but I still get easily triggered by her. Next one, Venus in the 12th ruling the 4th.

06:50:56 Speaker_00
Due to my mother's spiritual proclivities, I basically grew up on a Tibetan Buddhist monastery in New York, even moved abroad for a few years to follow her guru. Every year she would leave for three months to do solitary retreats.

06:51:14 Speaker_00
So that's a major aspect and that'll be the last two examples basically are similar that you get sometimes those like spiritual or monastic or other types of things in the 12th house as well.

06:51:30 Speaker_01
Yeah, monastic and also nature is one. I'm surprised we haven't gotten as much. I find 12th house people are your real nature people, tree people, forest people, jungle people, beach people.

06:51:46 Speaker_00
I'm seeing that with the fourth house people, but I could see that coming up with 12th house people to the extent that if they go out in nature alone and have that sense of isolation or aloneness in nature being part of it.

06:51:58 Speaker_00
All right, so the next one, fourth house Lord is the sun, which is exalted in Aries in the 12th. I've lived abroad several times in Spain, Germany, China, Argentina, and Puerto Rico, often in ashrams and conscious communities.

06:52:16 Speaker_00
My home is also a spiritual refuge and a living work of art crafted with love and devotion to maintaining alignment with the ancient principles of Vastu Shastra, which is like Vedic Feng Shui. And then finally, the last one,

06:52:33 Speaker_00
My fourth house ruler is Saturn in Libra in the 12th, and my parents met when my mom was my dad's transcendental meditation student. They both had a regular meditation practice throughout my childhood.

06:52:46 Speaker_00
And I thought that was amazing because it's like an exalted Saturn in the 12th, and the one before this was an exalted Sun in the 12th.

06:52:55 Speaker_00
So it's like the difference sometimes when you have a planet that's in a more challenging house, like the 12th or the 8th or the 6th, and it's really well-placed versus when it's really poorly placed, you get different and sometimes much more constructive manifestations of that.

06:53:15 Speaker_01
Yeah. The 12th house pulls you away from the Ascendant. Sometimes that means you've made some choices that have taken off your otherwise healthy course of life and you've gone and ruined something.

06:53:29 Speaker_01
But sometimes it just means you've gone off on a meditation retreat and you've disconnected from You've gone onto the shoulder of the road of life, you're not engaged in the traffic, you're sort of moved yourself into, again, a timeless space.

06:53:47 Speaker_01
I always say the sixth and 12th house have to do with time and the 12th house is sort of like removing yourself from time in some way.

06:53:57 Speaker_01
Yeah, creative people do, you know, often have strong 12th house placements, because that's, you know, creative people.

06:54:06 Speaker_01
All the other kids are out in the park playing baseball and you're inside practicing cello, you know, that's a 12th house kind of person.

06:54:13 Speaker_01
disengaging from everything that's around you and focusing on your own thing in a sort of more timeless schedule that's to your liking. And it's outside of the rigid scheduling of the sixth house, which is more like military time type of a lifestyle.

06:54:29 Speaker_01
So yeah, there's something feral about the 12th house in that way.

06:54:33 Speaker_00
Yeah. Rhetorius talks about how the 12th house is the sign of the zodiac that was rising before you were born, like an hour or two before birth, and he calls it one of the places that's between worlds because you're in between life and death.

06:54:49 Speaker_00
But I think about it to the extent that it's that sign from before you were born that sometimes it's harkening back to the pre-birth state where you're just sitting there in isolation, basically, prior to birth and prior to your life beginning.

06:55:07 Speaker_00
And so sometimes it can harken back to that sense of isolation, which in a negative way sometimes can be isolation in terms of prisons or hospitals or things like that.

06:55:19 Speaker_00
But other times, that sense of isolation and solitude can be something that's restorative or helpful or healing in some way when it's more positive.

06:55:31 Speaker_01
Yeah, you could use the operative phrase like not wanting to deal with life right now. And there's just, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to not wanna deal with life right now, you know, one way or the other.

06:55:45 Speaker_01
But yeah, it's not, there's a lot of healthy space in the 12th house. It's just, it's a dangerous space, you know, whereas the sixth house is again, very contained and organized and sort of safe in a domestic way.

06:55:59 Speaker_01
The 12th house being feral and wild and just potentially dangerous.

06:56:03 Speaker_01
Lions and tigers and bears, you're just, you're in the vulnerable space where, you know, something bad could happen or you could, you know, cause something bad to happen to yourself simply because you're so free.

06:56:17 Speaker_01
But yeah, I think that element of being, you know, in the womb in that kind of timeless space is really apropos.

06:56:26 Speaker_00
Yeah. And also, the 12th house is part of that angular triad that has to do with the 1st house and the sense of self, but it's declining away from that while not aspecting the Ascendant. So if the 1st house represents

06:56:48 Speaker_00
your body and physical vitality, the 12th house is declining and it's detracting away from it. It's things that detract away from your body and your physical as well as mental vitality in some ways.

06:57:01 Speaker_00
And that's why the 12th can have some negative connotations that we've talked about and clearly demonstrated to a certain extent here come from that, that sense of it detracting from the first house.

06:57:16 Speaker_00
But when there's mitigating factors present, when there's good things placed there, there can be plenty of good manifestations as well, as we'll see when we get to the episode on the 12th house at the end of this series.

06:57:29 Speaker_01
Yeah, which should be a few hundred hours of talking between now and then.

06:57:35 Speaker_00
Yeah, about that. Sorry, we've reached the end of this episode, so it's time for concluding remarks. Yes, we together have topped ourselves, but I have certainly taught myself with this episode and gone as far as we can go with the fourth house.

06:57:54 Speaker_00
Ironically, I cut the planets section. I didn't do planets this time. I just did the Ruler of the Ascendant and the Rulers of the Houses, but it still ended up becoming the longest one in the series.

06:58:03 Speaker_00
I'm going to pull it back a little bit for the 5th house and make it a little bit more manageable and see if I can fit it into one episode, potentially.

06:58:14 Speaker_00
and not do as comprehensive of a treatment because I kind of pushed myself too far and kind of killed myself doing this fourth house episode over the past month or two, even though it was incredibly rewarding. I'm sure now we've all learned a lot.

06:58:29 Speaker_00
I learned a lot, and that's why I pushed myself as far and did as many examples as I did because I was having such a good time. know, I already knew a lot about it.

06:58:39 Speaker_00
It was confirming a lot of things I already knew, but it was interesting to develop new examples and see different manifestations of it and to further develop certain ideas even better than I had previously, and that was really enjoyable.

06:58:55 Speaker_00
But we'll see how things go for the next one. It was nice integrating the listener submissions. And I think that's a major new element of this that added a helpful dimension, I think, listening to other people's examples.

06:59:11 Speaker_01
Yeah. It's just constantly striking how you get this laundry list of all these examples that are very, very similar to each other.

06:59:19 Speaker_01
Of course, I already have my convictions about astrology, but it's the kind of thing that just reinforces them constantly.

06:59:28 Speaker_00
Yeah. It's nice because it does help to confirm some things we already know, things we already think, or things that we've seen from the chart examples.

06:59:36 Speaker_00
We do have to be a little careful sometimes because sometimes people are obviously picking up on things based on what they know about astrology or what they think the placement might mean, and then connecting it with things in their life, which is sometimes good confirmation.

06:59:50 Speaker_00
But on the other hand, it might just confirm commonly held beliefs about certain placements rather than pushing into new territory that's maybe not explored.

07:00:02 Speaker_00
It could be the downside of that, so that's something we have to be careful about a little bit in terms of all of the research we just presented with some of those listener examples.

07:00:12 Speaker_00
But nonetheless, it's still helpful confirmation and exploration of more subtler points when it comes to the placements.

07:00:19 Speaker_01
Yeah. I mean, I think it's worth saying on your show, because you are speaking to this large audience of people who are basically teaching themselves astrology in part by watching the podcast or listening to it.

07:00:34 Speaker_01
If you're studying astrology, it's par for the course at some point, you will freak yourself out. Like it's part of the growth of learning astrology that at some point you'll read some transit or some element of your chart that sounds really bad.

07:00:53 Speaker_01
And you'll probably freak yourself out over it a bit until you sort of have the time to put everything in perspective. It's kind of like, I don't think you can become a beekeeper without getting stung by bees. It's part of how you get there.

07:01:09 Speaker_01
You can't become a stand up comic without having been booed off stage by a really hostile audience. There's just some kind of rite of passage that is part of the journey.

07:01:20 Speaker_01
So yeah, we always want to sort of qualify what we're teaching here, when it sounds kind of dark in one way or another, that these things play out in many different ways.

07:01:33 Speaker_01
And also just know that if you do happen to be freaked out at this moment or that moment, that while it may or may not be helpful to you, it is part of what is involved in learning astrology. I think it's just It has to be acknowledged though.

07:01:50 Speaker_01
Someone's got to say it.

07:01:51 Speaker_00
CB Yeah, I think that's a good point, and it's good. I'm glad you made that.

07:01:57 Speaker_00
Yeah, astrology, as we've said, to the extent that astrology, if it's going to be a successful system that successfully describes the complexities of life, then it's got to describe

07:02:09 Speaker_00
every aspect of life, not just the good things, but also some of the challenging or the bad things as well.

07:02:15 Speaker_00
And as astrologers, the more familiar we are with the different possible manifestations in the extremes, that can also help us to establish some of the different shades of gray in between.

07:02:28 Speaker_00
And I think we've been able to do that with this episode and the entire purpose of doing such a comprehensive treatment of the fourth house with

07:02:36 Speaker_00
well over 100 chart examples between parts 1 and 2 was to give you so many different perspectives on the fourth house and the archetypes surrounding it that you now should have a better idea of what the overarching archetype means

07:02:52 Speaker_00
and some different ways to approach it and to see it in the lives of real people. And now you're going to find your own unique chart examples and different manifestations of it during the course of your career and your studies of your own chart.

07:03:05 Speaker_00
I hope that we've raised the bar in terms of understanding the fourth house, and we've also set a new foundation that people then can build on from there and grow and expand our understanding. CB Yeah, exactly. Well put. CB Yeah. All right.

07:03:26 Speaker_00
So fourth house, basic topics, obviously, home, parents, family, private life, secrets, inner world, nature, country, past, history, death, matters after death. Those are, I think, our core significations.

07:03:44 Speaker_00
You can go back to the first house to see the more detailed breakdown, but I think we've pretty well established that those are a lot of the primary significations of the fourth house and the different ways that those core significations can manifest, I think.

07:04:00 Speaker_00
Yeah?

07:04:00 Speaker_01
CB

07:04:03 Speaker_00
Cool. All right, my friend. Thank you so much for doing The Fourth House with me. Thanks for doing parts one and two. I know you are still dealing with a cold, so you weren't feeling great today.

07:04:13 Speaker_00
So thanks for powering through and doing this episode with me. Yeah, I appreciate it. And it's been really fruitful doing this with you.

07:04:23 Speaker_01
Yeah. I really love this series and working on it. And yeah, it just keeps getting better.

07:04:30 Speaker_00
So thank you. All right. Where can people find out more information for you? You do consultations, right?

07:04:37 Speaker_01
I do consultations. I can be reached at nickdaganbestastrologer.com and it's very easy to book appointments with me on my website. So please do if you're looking for someone to speak to.

07:04:50 Speaker_00
Excellent. I'll put a link to that in the description below this video or on the podcast website entry for this episode. Shout out to all the patrons that supported this work.

07:05:01 Speaker_00
One of the things is I have a very long document of written notes for this episode as well as part one, and I'm going to release those to patrons even at the lowest tier where the people that are paying $4 a month can get access to our written notes

07:05:15 Speaker_00
contains a detailed write-up of all of our research for this episode, including some stuff that we didn't even include, or some chart examples we didn't go into, or further details on chart examples that we did share.

07:05:28 Speaker_00
So you can get access to that by going to my page at patreon.com slash astrology podcast and signing up. And in turn, if you enjoyed this episode or enjoyed this series and you want to support my work in it,

07:05:40 Speaker_00
You can also pledge your support there to help us out and buy coffee because I have a lot of episodes to go, and I'm going to need a lot of coffee to get through the rest of this series. Yeah, exactly.

07:05:58 Speaker_00
And Columbia and everywhere else, I need all of the coffee beans. Yeah.

07:06:03 Speaker_01
You take the beans from your continent, I'll take the beans from this continent, and that's all the coffee in the world, I guess. Apart from Java, so someone can have Java.

07:06:12 Speaker_00
That's true. All right. All right. Cool. Well, thanks for joining me. Thanks everyone for watching or listening to this episode. Drop us a like or a comment on YouTube. It'll help us out.

07:06:22 Speaker_00
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07:06:30 Speaker_00
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07:06:38 Speaker_00
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07:06:58 Speaker_00
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07:07:03 Speaker_00
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07:07:19 Speaker_00
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07:07:34 Speaker_00
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07:07:38 Speaker_00
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07:07:53 Speaker_00
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07:08:07 Speaker_00
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07:08:25 Speaker_00
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07:08:33 Speaker_00
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07:08:42 Speaker_00
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07:08:54 Speaker_00
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