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Episode: The Rise of Fox News | 2. A Network for Normal People

Author: Slate Podcasts
Duration: 01:00:05

Episode Shownotes

Before he ran Fox News, Roger Ailes launched a very different kind of channel. America’s Talking was his vision of the future of television: a strange, slapdash, mostly apolitical cable network. When that dream got snatched away from him, Ailes went on a revenge mission—and made a connection with Rupert

Murdoch. Want more from Slow Burn? Join Slate Plus to unlock full access to all seasons, including members-only bonus episodes from The Rise of Fox News. You'll also enjoy ad-free listening to all of your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe now by clicking "Try Free" at the top of the Slow Burn show page on Apple Podcasts. Or, visit slate.com/slowburnplus to get access wherever you listen. Season 10 of Slow Burn was written and reported by Josh Levin. It was executive produced by Lizzie Jacobs. Slow Burn is produced by Sophie Summergrad, Joel Meyer, and Rosie Belson with help from Patrick Fort, Jacob Fenston, and Julia Russo. Derek John is Slate’s executive producer of narrative podcasts. This season was edited by Susan Matthews and Hillary Frey. Merritt Jacob is our senior technical director. Mix and sound design by Joe Plourde. Our theme music was composed by Alexis Cuadrado. Derreck Johnson created the artwork for this season. Episode artwork by Ivylise Simones. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Summary

In the second episode of "Slow Burn" by Slate Podcasts, Josh Levin examines the establishment of Fox News through the lens of Roger Ailes' journey. Initially, Ailes aimed to create an apolitical network named America's Talking, reflecting his vision for a channel that encouraged conversation among ordinary viewers. However, after the failure of that project, Ailes partnered with Rupert Murdoch, channeling his aspirations and disdain for mainstream media into Fox News, emphasizing conservative viewpoints. The episode explores Ailes' innovative yet complex approach that redefined American news media while also examining the challenges faced by those who felt the network compromised journalistic integrity.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (The Rise of Fox News | 2. A Network for Normal People) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:04 Speaker_00
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In the spring of 1994, Bill McCuddy was working at an ad agency, counting down the hours until the weekend.

00:00:37 Speaker_21
We just cracked beers at three in the afternoon because the martini buzz from lunch was starting to wear off. And the intern walked in and said, I was going to try out for this contest, but I think you'd be better.

00:00:51 Speaker_05
That contest was a nationwide competition sponsored by NBC's new cable channel, America's Talking.

00:00:59 Speaker_08
One show on America's Talking Network is a brand new talk show with a brand new host, and it could be you.

00:01:07 Speaker_05
Talking was Bill's specialty. He was in his mid-30s, and along with his day job in advertising, he was trying to make it in stand-up comedy. Getting his own TV show seemed worth a shot, so he put together an audition tape.

00:01:20 Speaker_21
I went out all day Saturday and just held up a sign that said, honk if I should have a talk show. And then drove through McDonald's and asked the drive-through woman if I would make a good talk show host.

00:01:34 Speaker_15
Can I help you? Do you think I'd make a good talk show host? If that's how you feel, I'm sure you could do anything you wanted to.

00:01:43 Speaker_05
When the contest cut down more than 10,000 entries to a final 20, Bill was still in the running.

00:01:49 Speaker_15
Tonight, we'll meet the one who will join our family of talk show hosts as America's Talking presents Guess Who's Talking.

00:01:59 Speaker_05
Bill and the 19 other hopefuls would show their stuff in a two-hour TV special, filmed in the same studio as Saturday Night Live. The master of ceremonies was Johnny Carson's old sidekick, the man behind the TV talent show Star Search.

00:02:12 Speaker_15
— Our special guest host, Ed McMahon!

00:02:25 Speaker_05
Two-thirds of the way through the show, Bill got his big test, a conversation with a randomly chosen celebrity. And I drew out of a hat Maury Povich.

00:02:35 Speaker_13
How do you keep your dignity in the talk show wars? I go to sleep with my wife. That's good to know. By the way, you were on... There's an exclusive. You were on Current Affair. Yeah, I started that. Remember when that pyramid came in and made that noise?

00:02:51 Speaker_13
Yeah. That was actually saying Connie Chung, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. Remember? Connie Chung. Yeah, it was a Ka-Chung. It was. Connie Chung. It was Ka-Chung.

00:02:57 Speaker_15
That's what we named it. Very good, Bill.

00:03:02 Speaker_05
Bill and the rest of the finalists would find out who won right then, on June 15, 1994. The rest of the country would see the special two days later, on NBC's business channel, CNBC.

00:03:13 Speaker_21
My then-girlfriend threw a big party for me. We had like 30 or 40 people there. And that was the same day that O.J. Simpson decided to go for that drive in the white Bronco. He's been on the run now for almost eight hours.

00:03:30 Speaker_05
Pretty much every network in America switched over to OJ. NBC's Tom Brokaw even broke into the NBA finals. But the guy in charge of CNBC demanded that they keep on rolling the Guess Who's Talking special.

00:03:44 Speaker_21
And we're watching it, and it's fun and, like, cool, but we kept flipping back and forth. And finally, one of my friends stands up and goes, turn that OJ thing back on.

00:03:57 Speaker_31
We are witnessing tonight a modern tragedy and drama of Shakespearean proportion being played out live on television.

00:04:05 Speaker_05
Bill didn't have to see the end of his big TV special. He'd lived it.

00:04:10 Speaker_31
Roger, you've got the mic.

00:04:12 Speaker_11
Obviously it was a very tough competition. We'd like this mic to be in the hands of Bill McCuddy.

00:04:24 Speaker_21
And I was thrilled. I mean, this was like how it started.

00:04:29 Speaker_05
On stage, Bill got his first command from his new boss, the guy who dreamed up the whole competition and handed him the mic, Roger Ailes.

00:04:39 Speaker_11
Report to work at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. We got a lot of work to do.

00:04:47 Speaker_05
This is Slow Burn Season 10, the rise of Fox News. I'm your host, Josh Levine. America's Talking was Roger Ailes' vision of the future of television. And it was deeply, deeply strange.

00:05:02 Speaker_18
We are going to hurl young Mr. McCuddy about 170 feet straight up into space.

00:05:07 Speaker_22
If you're just tuning in, this is not, not, not the dating game.

00:05:11 Speaker_18
We'll have more coming up in just a minute. Beam me out of here.

00:05:15 Speaker_05
America's Talking preceded Fox News. And on the surface, the two channels have very little in common. Roger Ailes' first cable venture looked totally homemade. Its shows had some of the most bonkers titles in the history of television.

00:05:31 Speaker_05
And it mostly didn't bother with politics. The channel's similarities are less obvious, but they're crucial to understanding where Fox News came from. Showmanship. Rule-breaking. Forging a bond with the audience.

00:05:44 Speaker_05
They're all part of the two networks' shared DNA. But Fox's origin story is also about Ailes' dream getting killed. The demise of America's Talking filled him with rage and inspired a new vision for cable TV dominance.

00:06:00 Speaker_05
Soon, Rupert Murdoch would help him bring that dream to life.

00:06:04 Speaker_10
And at the heart of it all was a mission for revenge. — I think that my primary qualification for running a news channel is that I don't have a degree in journalism. This is Episode 2.

00:06:17 Speaker_05
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See website for full details and important safety information. Roger Ailes got his start in television in the 1960s, almost 30 years before America's Talking existed.

00:08:14 Speaker_05
Back then, he executive produced a daytime talk show that was the TV equivalent of a glass of milk.

00:08:20 Speaker_15
And now, here's Mike!

00:08:23 Speaker_05
Mike Douglas was genial and wholesome, an audience surrogate who asked simple questions and crooned old-fashioned songs.

00:08:32 Speaker_17
I want a girl just like the girl that married dear old dad."

00:08:41 Speaker_05
Ailes could be friendly too, so long as there was something in it for him. Backstage at The Douglas Show, he managed to charm a very important guest. In 1968, Richard Nixon was running for president and needed to spiff up his TV image.

00:08:56 Speaker_05
Ailes sold himself as the man for the job.

00:08:59 Speaker_12
I don't believe anyone will ever be elected to a major public office again without the skillful use of television.

00:09:09 Speaker_05
Nixon's win in 68 made Ailes a coveted Republican advisor.

00:09:13 Speaker_05
By the 1980s, he'd become known as the dark prince of political advertising, a consultant for hire who found and exploited Democratic candidates' weak spots and played to voters' prejudices and fears.

00:09:26 Speaker_09
— As Governor Michael Dukakis vetoed mandatory sentences for drug dealers, he vetoed the death penalty. His revolving-door prison policy gave weekend furloughs to first-degree murderers not eligible for parole.

00:09:39 Speaker_05
There's a lot more to say about Roger Ailes, and a lot has been said in books and documentaries and TV miniseries. But that pretty much sums the guy up. He was a producer of mass-market entertainment and a ferocious partisan.

00:09:53 Speaker_05
Ailes was always on the attack, and one big American institution was in his crosshairs.

00:09:59 Speaker_06
The insight of Roger Ailes was this idea that part of the identity of being a Republican was to be adversarial with the mainstream media.

00:10:09 Speaker_05
Jonah Goldberg is the editor-in-chief of the conservative website The Dispatch. He says that to understand how Ailes saw the press, you need to know about a stunt he pulled in 1988.

00:10:20 Speaker_06
George H.W. Bush is gearing up to run for president, to succeed Ronald Reagan, and they have this long negotiation and he agrees to do a live interview with Dan Rather.

00:10:31 Speaker_05
— Bush's two big liabilities were his ties to the Iran-Contra scandal, and his reputation is kind of a wimp. Ailes believed this live interview on the CBS Evening News would help his candidate solve both problems.

00:10:44 Speaker_06
— Mr. Vice President, thank you for being with us tonight. — Rather has these perfectly legitimate but tough questions about Iran-Contra, what he knew, and all that kind of stuff.

00:10:51 Speaker_37
— He was deeply involved in running arms for the Contras, and he didn't inform you. Why is Mr. Gregg still inside the White House and still a trusted advisor?

00:10:59 Speaker_05
Bush was doing the interview remotely from his office in Washington, D.C. Off-camera, holding cue cards, was Roger Ailes. One of those cards said, walked off the air.

00:11:11 Speaker_05
That was a reference to the most childish moment of Dan Rather's CBS career, the time he'd stormed off the set to protest his newscast getting delayed by a tennis match. Now, Ailes was waving around that cue card.

00:11:25 Speaker_05
He was also mouthing the words, just kick his ass.

00:11:28 Speaker_14
— It's not fair to judge my whole career by a rehash on Iran. How would you like it if I judged your career by those seven minutes when you walked off the set in New York? Would you like that?

00:11:40 Speaker_14
I have respect for you, but I don't have respect for what you're doing here tonight.

00:11:43 Speaker_05
— CBS got flooded with complaints.

00:11:48 Speaker_06
About Dan Rather. What came out of this was a bumper sticker, annoy the media, vote for Bush.

00:11:54 Speaker_05
— Ailes had won the interview, and his client would win the presidency. But in the years that followed, the most notorious attack dog in American politics would publicly declare that he'd lost the taste for blood.

00:12:06 Speaker_11
— I got up one day and hated it. I thought it was getting mean-spirited. It wasn't about strategy and tactics.

00:12:14 Speaker_05
I didn't want to do it anymore. The truth was that Ailes continued to advise candidates and the Republican Party. Now he was just doing it quietly to avoid the reputational hits he'd taken during his Dark Prince era.

00:12:28 Speaker_05
Ailes started trumpeting his renewed focus on television as an advisor on the syndicated tabloid show Hard Copy and the executive producer of a new TV venture from conservative radio icon Rush Limbaugh.

00:12:40 Speaker_37
— I think these liberals are getting so predictable, it's not even fun anymore.

00:12:44 Speaker_05
It used to be fun to try to— — That's where Roger Ailes was in the early 90s. Kind of, but not really, moving on from partisan politics. It was at this moment, when Ailes was trying to change his image, that he got a very big break.

00:12:57 Speaker_02
— Roger knew how to spin anybody.

00:13:02 Speaker_05
Tom Rogers was one of NBC's top executives, the president of the network's cable division. He met with Ailes in 1993 to see if he'd be interested in revamping NBC's struggling, boring cable business channel CNBC. Ailes' answer was, meh.

00:13:22 Speaker_02
And I could have kind of let the conversations drop and said, OK, we're moving on in our search here.

00:13:28 Speaker_05
But Tom didn't let the conversation drop. Instead, he mentioned another channel that NBC's cable division was hoping to launch.

00:13:36 Speaker_02
— I characterized it as a talk news service, and to amplify that, called it America's Talking.

00:13:44 Speaker_08
— Hi! Please excuse the mess. We're about to launch cable's newest network.

00:13:50 Speaker_02
But the more I described America's talking to him and this new channel that could be a wide-open canvas for him to paint, the more interested he got in the position.

00:14:01 Speaker_02
He talked about what we could do together, what we could build together, how we could turn this into something great.

00:14:07 Speaker_05
Ailes got a three-year contract to run CNBC and America's Talking. That wide-open canvas was all his. Now he just needed a crew to help him paint it.

00:14:18 Speaker_24
It was a startup, so this was something that had never been done before.

00:14:23 Speaker_05
Renata Joy had been a producer for NBC News in North Carolina. She was in her late 20s when she moved over to America's Talking.

00:14:31 Speaker_24
All of us were young producers. We wanted to come to the New York market. We wanted to take that chance.

00:14:37 Speaker_05
For Renata and her colleagues, the New York market would actually be Fort Lee, New Jersey, where NBC had set up its cable division to keep down costs and be able to use non-union labor.

00:14:48 Speaker_05
When the America's Talking crew showed up in Jersey, they didn't know what their jobs would be. They'd find out in May 1994, when Roger Ailes called them into a conference room.

00:14:59 Speaker_24
They were like, I think, 12 producers. They come in, they hand us an envelope, and start playing the Mission Impossible music. Dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-da-da-da! Da-da-da!

00:15:13 Speaker_24
So we all opened the envelope, and that's when we saw what America's Talking was actually going to be about.

00:15:20 Speaker_05
Inside those envelopes were the names of individual programs, the America's Talking daily lineup.

00:15:26 Speaker_25
Hi, I'm Terry Anser, and I was the co-anchor of a show called America's Talking In Depth. Our show was the only one that was pretty much a straight-up news show. The other shows had specific angles.

00:15:42 Speaker_05
Pretty much all of those shows, and their specific angles, emerged from the mind of Roger Ailes. I'll confess that when I first heard the titles, I thought they were a joke. Because this list sounds like it got jotted down in maybe 15 seconds.

00:15:58 Speaker_25
a show called Bugged, where a guy came on and talked about what bugged him.

00:16:02 Speaker_33
You know what bugs me about people? A, people that say A and B, because B is so unbelievably annoying.

00:16:09 Speaker_25
A show called What's New, where it was about all products that were new.

00:16:13 Speaker_35
Super Nintendos. Oh, what was that? Super Nintendos. Super Nintendos. And I'm sure they're out there somewhere.

00:16:17 Speaker_25
Oh, we had a show called Am I Nuts? And people would call in and find out if they were nuts or not.

00:16:23 Speaker_35
They've had a thought, a fantasy, a reaction, a dream, a behavior, something that they've done in their life where they themselves thought it as so strange that they've said, am I nuts?

00:16:36 Speaker_05
Renata Joy's assignment, which she did choose to accept, wasn't all that wacky conceptually. She got asked to develop a show with Elle Magazine's advice columnist. Her name was E. Jean Carroll.

00:16:48 Speaker_22
Yes, my darling, Flopsy Pudding. The biggest manhandling trick of all is to know that there is no trick.

00:16:57 Speaker_24
Jean was kind of out there, and she didn't have that filter that a lot of talk show hosts have.

00:17:06 Speaker_22
I hate that music more than any of that bubbly, burpy little trumpet.

00:17:12 Speaker_24
very flamboyant, very loud. And she was like, honey, you're going to be my producer. I was like, oh, wow.

00:17:21 Speaker_05
Eugene and Renata were paired up only a few months before launch day, and they just had to figure it out.

00:17:27 Speaker_24
What do we need? How do we find guests? Everything was by the seat of our pants.

00:17:33 Speaker_05
Everything about America's Talking felt slapdash. But all those shows with seemingly random titles weren't really random.

00:17:41 Speaker_05
Roger Ailes believed that what's bugging you, what's new, and am I nuts were the kinds of questions that ordinary TV viewers ask themselves every day. Back in the 1960s, Ailes had made the milquetoast Mike Douglas into a talk show star.

00:17:58 Speaker_05
Now, he was building an entire network for average Americans. Ailes told a reporter, I figure there are 18 shows for freaks. If there's one network for normal people, it'll balance out.

00:18:11 Speaker_08
It's America's Talking, the first all-talk network dedicated to what America is talking about. The first ever daily national conversation.

00:18:22 Speaker_05
When America's Talking debuted on July 4th, 1994, Roger Ailes' contest winner, Bill McCuddy, would be a big part of that conversation.

00:18:32 Speaker_05
His show, Break a Leg, spotlighted emerging comedians like Susie Essman, up-and-coming bands like Hootie and the Blowfish, and a brand new talk show host.

00:18:42 Speaker_21
I was this thing that could have been a huge laughingstock if it had fallen flat on its face, and Ailes wanted to make sure that he hadn't made a mistake.

00:18:50 Speaker_05
Bill got a lot of one-on-one time with the boss, and he watched Roger Ailes coach the entire America's Talking team.

00:18:57 Speaker_21
Roger would stand on a soapbox, and he would just start going, this is what we're doing right, this is what we're doing wrong. They were real pep talks that didn't seem like bullshit.

00:19:08 Speaker_21
They seemed like, he's giving us our marching orders, and we want to do it right for this guy.

00:19:18 Speaker_05
On launch day, America's Talking wasn't in that many households, just 10 million, compared to more than 60 million for a more established cable channel like CNN. But everyone who found it got the chance to be a part of the show.

00:19:30 Speaker_25
What do you think? Give us a call at 1-800-988-TALK. You just wanted to keep it in this friendly conversation where everybody could just sit down in the common living room and talk to each other.

00:19:46 Speaker_05
Terry Anser had worked as a correspondent and anchor at some of the country's biggest local TV stations.

00:19:52 Speaker_05
At America's Talking, she was doing hard news, hosting an hour-long show on the AIDS crisis, and interviewing Henry Kissinger about airstrikes in Bosnia.

00:20:01 Speaker_05
But early on, she got the message that keeping the audience informed wasn't her most important role. That lesson came from an executive who'd worked with Roger Ailes on The Mike Douglas Show.

00:20:12 Speaker_25
There was a man named Chet Collier, who was a longtime mentor of Rogers and his right-hand guy at America's Talking. And I'll never forget, he said, you are a woman on television. Your only job is to be likable.

00:20:34 Speaker_25
My assignment was to wear dresses or suits with very short skirts. I had a cut-through desk, and they put a light on my legs. And on the occasional times when I would wear a pantsuit, that was not appreciated.

00:20:51 Speaker_05
Terry says she got along well with Roger Ailes. According to her, it was the vice president of programming, Ailes' future wife, Beth Tilson, who lectured the on-air talent about their clothing choices and the color of their lipstick.

00:21:05 Speaker_05
Terry would sometimes be in tears just before she went on the air. But she came to accept the anxiety and the wardrobe as the cost of doing what she loved.

00:21:14 Speaker_25
I just feel that I've been privileged in my life to be in front of a television camera informing people about the world. You know what, if I have to wear a short skirt and, you know, show my legs, it's actually, I don't mind.

00:21:29 Speaker_05
America's Talking was messy, and ramshackle, and weird. And Terry was incredibly proud of it.

00:21:37 Speaker_25
It was like one of those old movies with Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney where they'd say, my father has a barn, let's do a show.

00:21:46 Speaker_05
Roger Ailes' hosts and producers were building a network. But they weren't the only ones trying to create something new.

00:21:53 Speaker_01
— As you know, Fox has had a phenomenal growth in the last few years, and now we have to move to making ourselves the best in news programming.

00:22:03 Speaker_05
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00:23:20 Speaker_36
The 2024 election is upon us, and the stakes couldn't be higher. But the outcome might not be clear till long after everyone has voted.

00:23:28 Speaker_36
If the race ends up being as close as it looks right now, we could be in for a repeat, or worse, of the year 2000, when the presidency came down to a recount in Florida that ended at the Supreme Court.

00:23:40 Speaker_36
To hear the whole story, check out Fiasco Bush v. Gore, a podcast from the co-creators of Slow Burn. listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:23:52 Speaker_05
Going back to the mid-1950s, ABC, CBS, and NBC owned American television. The big three were an unbreakable block, and the idea that a real competitor might emerge seemed like an impossible dream.

00:24:06 Speaker_05
But then, in 1986, that mythical fourth network actually sprung to life.

00:24:14 Speaker_28
— And welcome to Fox!

00:24:18 Speaker_05
— The Fox Broadcasting Company was an insurgent TV force, young and flashy, and openly flouting worn-out conventions. Fox made Joan Rivers the first woman ever to host a network late-night show.

00:24:33 Speaker_32
— So much has been said, and so much has been written, and I am just so, so happy to be here, and I thank you all so much.

00:24:42 Speaker_05
Fox also courted Black audiences with Martin and Living Single, while the raunchy Married with Children pushed the boundaries of acceptable primetime taste. Those disruptions didn't always pan out. Joan Rivers got fired after less than a year.

00:24:57 Speaker_05
But the larger Fox experiment was working. In Living Color, The Simpsons, Beverly Hills 90210, and Melrose Place all became cultural obsessions.

00:25:08 Speaker_05
And then, in 1993, Fox made a colossal move, outmaneuvering CBS to snag away the most coveted property in American TV.

00:25:18 Speaker_04
It's the NFL on Fox. It's more than a game.

00:25:25 Speaker_05
The guy shaking up the stale television industry came from an ocean away.

00:25:30 Speaker_01
I'm an Australian. I believe in equality and I want to give everybody a good choice of programs.

00:25:37 Speaker_05
Rupert Murdoch was born into moguldom, taking over his father's Aussie newspaper holdings in the 1950s. He then expanded into the UK and the US and into television, book publishing, and film production.

00:25:52 Speaker_05
He used that press empire to push his conservative views and to grab and consolidate economic power. In the American market, Fox's big NFL breakthrough made the Fourth Network a genuine peer to ABC, CBS, and NBC.

00:26:07 Speaker_05
Now, it needed just one more thing to become a bona fide TV grown-up. A real national news operation. Something to rival what the big three networks had spent decades building.

00:26:20 Speaker_30
From CBS News headquarters in Washington, this is the CBS Evening News with Walter Cronkite.

00:26:27 Speaker_05
We called him Walter, but it was like working for God. — That's Joe Perrinan. He started at CBS News in the 1970s, in the heyday of the Voice of God TV anchorman.

00:26:38 Speaker_34
— Since Monday, when President Nixon released the new tape, events have been rushing toward one seemingly inevitable conclusion— removal from office.

00:26:48 Speaker_09
When the evening news completed and Walter said, and that's the way it is, we'd clean up and we'd go out and get dinner or have a beer or something and we'd start over the next day.

00:26:59 Speaker_05
Pretty good gig. Joe worked at CBS for decades, rising to become the number two executive in the news division. But by 1995, he was on the way out and casting around for a landing spot.

00:27:11 Speaker_09
Fox was looking for a president, so they decided to hire me with the idea that they were going to create a news organization.

00:27:19 Speaker_05
When you get to Fox, what is in place?

00:27:23 Speaker_09
There's nothing, nothing really there.

00:27:29 Speaker_05
CBS News had well over a thousand employees. Joe wasn't going to recreate that kind of news colossus all at once, or maybe ever. News was expensive, and Murdoch wanted a lean operation.

00:27:42 Speaker_05
So Joe got to work, slowly putting building blocks in place, trying to construct a Fox News operation that the nation would respect. Over at NBC, Roger Ailes wasn't doing anything slowly.

00:27:57 Speaker_05
When he'd gotten hired in 1993, Ailes' first job was to fix up CNBC. On his watch, the flailing business network got brasher and more inventive, and its revenues zoomed up. But Ailes' second job was the one he really cared about.

00:28:13 Speaker_18
— Welcome back to America's Talking for Thursday, October 27th. Steve Ducey, along with Kay Kim and Tony.

00:28:19 Speaker_05
Ailes designed and built America's Talking largely on his own, and got it cranking out hours of original television. He even had his own talk show, Street Forward, where he interviewed Joan Baez, Donald Trump, and Al Franken.

00:28:33 Speaker_11
— Al wanted water and coffee, so we had to get me water and coffee so that we'd be in symmetrical, so it's your move.

00:28:41 Speaker_23
— Symmetry, my night to your glass of water.

00:28:48 Speaker_05
How are you? Good. The good thing about being in charge is that no one's going to cancel your terrible vanity project. And Roger Ailes was definitely swaggering around like he owned the place. He actually wanted to run all of NBC.

00:29:04 Speaker_02
This was very much a guy who wanted to be a player with people who were loyal to him.

00:29:11 Speaker_05
Tom Rogers helped bring in Ailes to oversee CNBC and America's Talking. — How long did it take for you to think that you'd made a really bad mistake?

00:29:19 Speaker_02
— Yeah, it was clear very quickly.

00:29:23 Speaker_05
— When Roger Ailes wanted to get hired at NBC, he'd told Tom they could build something great together. Once Ailes was in the building, he got to work tearing Tom down.

00:29:35 Speaker_02
— He would say things to the press that you just don't see one executive of a company talking about another.

00:29:41 Speaker_05
— To take one example, Ailes told a trade publication that Tom's had a little trouble letting go, because he basically used to run CNBC. Privately, Ailes went further.

00:29:52 Speaker_05
— Is it accurate that he told you to stay out of his team's way, or, quote, I'm going to rip your fucking heart out?

00:30:01 Speaker_02
You know what, I don't remember specific words, but those were the kind of things he would say.

00:30:08 Speaker_05
Tom was done with Ailes, and with America's Talking. The channel Ailes had created for normal people wasn't appealing to much of anyone. After a year on the air, its ratings were too tiny for Nielsen to even register.

00:30:21 Speaker_02
Well, it never caught fire. He spent a lot of time on it, but it just didn't catch.

00:30:27 Speaker_05
In 1995, Tom and some NBC colleagues found a way to solve all of their Roger Ailes problems.

00:30:34 Speaker_31
If you look at this partnership between NBC and Microsoft, there'll be something there for you. MSNBC. It's going to be incredible.

00:30:41 Speaker_05
NBC struck a deal with Microsoft to rebrand America's Talking as MSNBC. Ailes' fiefdom had gotten snatched away, and he told a reporter that he was rip-shit angry about how he'd been treated.

00:30:53 Speaker_19
— I think that Roger wanted to get even. I think revenge was a big motivator.

00:31:01 Speaker_05
That's J. Max Robbins. In the mid-90s, he was the TV editor of the Entertainment Bible Variety.

00:31:07 Speaker_19
I was the first person to report that Roger Ailes was going to Fox. And I can tell you this now, Roger was my source.

00:31:15 Speaker_05
Ailes' separation agreement with NBC barred him from going to a whole bunch of competitors. But it didn't say anything about teaming up with Rupert Murdoch.

00:31:24 Speaker_19
I think he felt a real kinship with Murdoch. They're both kind of pirates. They're both buccaneers. And he knew he and Murdoch were really politically aligned.

00:31:37 Speaker_01
We've been very lucky in being able to obtain the services of Mr. Roger Ailes, who has had such a fantastic success in building CNBC. On January 30, 1996, Murdoch and Ailes took their plan public.

00:31:55 Speaker_01
I'd just like to say how delighted I am that we can firmly announce the starting of a Fox News channel.

00:32:02 Speaker_05
At that press conference, Hale spoke grandly about journalistic values, and he said his days as a Republican operative were well behind him.

00:32:11 Speaker_11
I left politics a number of years ago and have run a news organization for the last two years.

00:32:16 Speaker_02
I do believe that if we had not given him that credential, He would not have been chosen by Rupert Murdoch to be the creator of Fox News.

00:32:25 Speaker_05
— Tom Rogers is probably right. If NBC hadn't helped launder Ailes' image, Fox News might never have gotten off the ground.

00:32:37 Speaker_11
— Our job is to be objective, to do fine journalism. We'd like to be premier journalists.

00:32:44 Speaker_05
There was one awkward thing about this new Ailes-Murdoch partnership. Fox already had a news division, and Walter Cronkite's disciple Joe Paranin was running it.

00:32:55 Speaker_09
I brought a booklet of standards and practices, which I wrote and gave to everybody. Everybody, oh, what the hell is this, you know?

00:33:03 Speaker_05
Joe had come to Fox from CBS to build a broadcast news operation on the cheap, and he'd hired about 40 people. What he didn't realize is that Rupert Murdoch had a secret plan for a 24-hour cable news channel. And Joe was about to get demoted.

00:33:19 Speaker_09
— Roger calls me and tells me that he's looking forward to meeting with me, he'd like to take me to lunch.

00:33:24 Speaker_05
— At a seafood place in Manhattan, Ailes shared his vision for Fox News, and offered a critique of Joe's former network.

00:33:32 Speaker_09
He said, look, you worked for CBS News, the communist broadcasting system. He said, they're all liberal, and we need a different channel out there that I believe will speak to millions of Americans. And he described it as an alternative news channel.

00:33:54 Speaker_05
In his press conference with Rupert Murdoch, Ailes had said that Fox News would do fine, objective journalism. Now he told Joe something very different.

00:34:03 Speaker_09
I went back to see Roger Ailes the next morning, and I walked in and I said, I don't do alternatives. I'm not staying. I'm resigning. And he said, I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you very much. And I left.

00:34:20 Speaker_05
The small team that Joe had put together wouldn't be enough to build out an entire cable network. That man Ailes needed to staff up. One potential hire got asked if he was a Democrat.

00:34:31 Speaker_05
When he said that was an inappropriate question, the negotiations ended. Ailes reportedly told another journalist, you're Jewish, so I assume you're liberal. He didn't get a job either. But Ailes was hiring from NBC.

00:34:45 Speaker_21
Some people were like, wherever that man goes, I'll march behind him. And Steve Doocy and I were certainly two of those people.

00:34:53 Speaker_05
It was all thanks to Roger Ailes that Bill McCuddy had gotten the chance to host his own talk show. Now Bill was showing his loyalty, and Ailes was getting some revenge on his former employer.

00:35:04 Speaker_05
Bill was one of 82 NBC employees who had marched behind Ailes to Fox, including his colleagues Steve Doocy and CNBC's Neil Cavuto. The news anchor, Terri Anser, thought she would join them.

00:35:17 Speaker_25
Everybody came up and patted me on the back and said, oh, Terri, you'll be going there for sure.

00:35:22 Speaker_05
Terry says her work at America's Talking was the best of her career. She also did whatever was asked of her, even when it meant wearing short skirts with the light shining on her legs.

00:35:33 Speaker_05
The whole time she worked for Raj Raels, she thought they had a good relationship. But she didn't get an invitation to follow him to Fox.

00:35:42 Speaker_25
My agent told me that when he called to discuss who might make the move to Fox News, he was told, oh, Terry, oh no, we can't work with her. I was hurt and I was shocked.

00:35:58 Speaker_05
Terry says she never got a real explanation for why Fox rejected her. But she did notice a pattern.

00:36:05 Speaker_25
Zero women went from America's Talking to on-air roles at Fox News. Not one. All the men had a shelf life and the women were as disposable as tissue paper.

00:36:33 Speaker_24
I'm Maria Konnikova. And I'm Nate Silver. Our podcast, Risky Business, is a show about making better decisions. Decisions like, should you bet on the election?

00:36:42 Speaker_17
Maybe. Should you even be able to? Yes. And questions like, have presidential candidates made the most optimal decisions in their campaigns? And how's that translate into the polling?

00:36:52 Speaker_17
We're talking about it all in the lead up and aftermath of the election. Listen to Risky Business wherever you get your podcasts.

00:37:06 Speaker_21
— Good morning, welcome to Fox News Channel.

00:37:09 Speaker_22
— This is Fox News Now, all the news you need in 15 minutes.

00:37:12 Speaker_05
— On the morning of October 7th, 1996, Fox News went from an idea to a real-life TV network.

00:37:22 Speaker_05
In its first few years, Fox would have all kinds of trouble getting picked up by cable systems, a problem that Rupert Murdoch's money and power would eventually solve. The more interesting long-term questions were about identity.

00:37:36 Speaker_05
What kind of journalism would Fox do? And what kinds of people would want to watch? One potential answer was that Fox News would be another America's Talking.

00:37:46 Speaker_05
Because in 1996, there were a bunch of Fox shows that felt like they'd been teleported over from Roger Ailes' old channel.

00:37:53 Speaker_21
— Good morning, and welcome to Pet News.

00:37:55 Speaker_05
The number is 1-888-TELL-FOX. — Sadly, call-in pet advice wouldn't become a staple on the Fox schedule. A couple of primetime talk shows would, including one hosted by Bill O'Reilly.

00:38:09 Speaker_16
Few broadcasts take any chances these days, and most are very politically correct. Well, we're going to try to be different.

00:38:17 Speaker_05
I'm going to talk more about primetime Fox later in this series. But for now, I want to focus on the Fox News Morning Show.

00:38:28 Speaker_26
Good morning, I'm Edie Donahue. The taxman gets a facelift, and that's good news for you.

00:38:33 Speaker_27
They were still in their infancy, and so they had me come in and just fill in on some of those shows. And so that's how I ended up on Fox Express.

00:38:41 Speaker_05
That's Edie Hill. She went by Edie Donahue back in 1998, when she was in her mid-30s and filling in on the morning show that was then called Fox Express.

00:38:51 Speaker_27
It wasn't a big opportunity. I mean, I'd been at CBS Morning News, but what I liked about Fox with people. Most network-level places are not happy fun places. People are fairly miserable, and they're all out to get each other.

00:39:06 Speaker_27
And it was the opposite at Fox.

00:39:10 Speaker_05
ED quickly became a permanent co-host on Fox Express, alongside the former America's Talking Morning Guy Steve Doocy and sportscaster Brian Kilmeade.

00:39:21 Speaker_26
Baseball. Brian?

00:39:23 Speaker_18
Okay, as soon as you find the camera, you can get to talk.

00:39:26 Speaker_27
When it started out, it was very traditional. Brian did the sports, Steve did the weather, and I did the news.

00:39:31 Speaker_05
That traditional format got a major overhaul in the summer of 98.

00:39:36 Speaker_27
Making it much less behind a desk and more of a talk news show. We ran a contest, and viewers came up with the name for it.

00:39:46 Speaker_05
Roger Ailes. That guy loves a contest.

00:39:49 Speaker_18
Yeah. Wow. Hi, welcome to the program. We've got a new name, folks. It's no longer Fox Express. No, it's Fox and Friends.

00:40:00 Speaker_05
I always thought the Fox in Fox and Friends referred to Fox News, or I guess I'd be more honest to say I never thought about it. It just seemed obvious. But then I found an interview with the contest winner, the guy who named the show.

00:40:14 Speaker_03
Well, it has one of those double meanings. At the time, you had a very nice-looking lady in the middle, surrounded by you guys. So I figured Fox, along with the friends on the outside...

00:40:31 Speaker_05
Edie was the original Fox in Fox & Friends. She was blonde and read the news, just like Terry Anser from America's Talking. Also like Terry, her bosses told her to wear skirts and dresses, even though she preferred pants. And people were taking notice.

00:40:47 Speaker_20
At Fox, they've got Edie Donahue's nice legs as their leading attraction.

00:40:54 Speaker_05
But where Terry was expected to be likable in a shy and retiring kind of way, E.D. and Fox & Friends had a very different vibe.

00:41:02 Speaker_18
I was over at E.D. 's house last night for that kegger. Yeah. Tried to take the gin out of your hand and you go crazy.

00:41:07 Speaker_27
Who took those flamingos out of the front yard? I don't know.

00:41:11 Speaker_05
E.D. 's relationship with the Fox News audience could be wholesome.

00:41:16 Speaker_27
When you watched Fox & Friends, I believe that you understood that we liked our viewers.

00:41:21 Speaker_02
This is Edie.

00:41:21 Speaker_27
Good, how are you doing?

00:41:22 Speaker_02
Not too bad. I love the program, by the way. Excellent.

00:41:24 Speaker_28
Thank you very much.

00:41:25 Speaker_27
It opened up a relationship instead of a lecture. This is Edie. I wake up every morning with Edie. You know, I know what she likes in her coffee. She's got the thing for the peppermint mocha cream. You know, they know that.

00:41:40 Speaker_05
But the calls into Fox & Friends weren't always so respectable.

00:41:45 Speaker_29
I love feet.

00:41:46 Speaker_27
Do you? What is it about feet? Some people just, I mean, really get off on feet.

00:41:51 Speaker_29
I have a woman's foot fetish. I love women's feet. In fact, you wouldn't mind taking off your shoe and showing it to the camera, would you?

00:42:01 Speaker_05
Edie did show her barefoot, which is probably why that moment has been preserved on YouTube. I asked her if she found that kind of attention creepy.

00:42:10 Speaker_27
Yeah, that is. It's really creepy. But I don't care. I don't care why you watch the news, why you watch a program I'm on. Whatever it was, hopefully, you know, you take something away with you that makes your life better or more informed.

00:42:25 Speaker_27
That's really the object.

00:42:26 Speaker_05
— Fox & Friends was crass and neighborly. It covered the news, and the hosts didn't keep their views to themselves.

00:42:34 Speaker_26
— It shifts the burden of proof from the taxpayer to the IRS. Woo! That's about time.

00:42:41 Speaker_05
Compared to the Today Show, Fox & Friends was both more fun and more overtly political. One fan from Kentucky told a reporter he liked E.D. and her co-hosts because they don't have a liberal slant like the other morning shows do.

00:42:55 Speaker_05
I was looking back actually at some message boards and stuff. People were talking about the show back then. I think every message that I read about you and other hosts said that based on what you were saying, they identified you as conservative.

00:43:10 Speaker_05
Does that seem fair to you?

00:43:12 Speaker_27
No, I would not peg myself as conservative. I peg myself as a radical traditionalist.

00:43:21 Speaker_05
I told E.D. that it wasn't just critics who identified her as conservative. It was her fans, the people who watched her on Fox News every day.

00:43:29 Speaker_27
Yeah, no, no, no. I get it. I believe that at the beginning of, you know, Fox and Friends, we were very in tune with mainstream America.

00:43:41 Speaker_05
Invoking mainstream America reminded me of Roger Ailes saying America's talking was for normal people, not freaks. It was television as tribalism, building a connection with cultural signifiers.

00:43:53 Speaker_27
There's certain terms that you can use, and if people aren't from outside an urban area, they don't get it, the term double-wide.

00:44:01 Speaker_18
She has got the most beautiful double-wide I've ever seen. That looks like permanent skirting around it.

00:44:07 Speaker_27
It is.

00:44:07 Speaker_26
It's permanent woven siding.

00:44:08 Speaker_37
Very nice. Well, the tires are flat. It might as well be permanent.

00:44:11 Speaker_27
I think that being able to understand people from all walks of life, I think it comes across.

00:44:18 Speaker_05
At Fox News, the most important signifier was a catchphrase Roger Ailes invented, one that became the network's mantra on day one.

00:44:26 Speaker_17
Fair and balanced. The way we report. The way we cover it. The way you get it. Fair and balanced. Fox News Channel.

00:44:34 Speaker_21
We all hated that line, but we had to say that, and we understood that we had to say that.

00:44:42 Speaker_05
Bill McCuddy came with Ailes from America's Talking. He worked as an entertainment reporter in Fox News' New York bureau. And he says he showed up at Fox with his eyes wide open.

00:44:52 Speaker_21
— You had to know that this place was going to try and address something that Rupert and Roger felt was missing, which was, we get the left side of the news, now let's do the right side.

00:45:06 Speaker_05
Why not just say that it's conservative, though?

00:45:08 Speaker_21
It couldn't declare what it was. It had to let people decide what it was.

00:45:14 Speaker_05
People on the news side of Fox News thought about fair and balanced differently. They understood it was a corporate slogan, but it aligned with how they saw themselves.

00:45:24 Speaker_05
We've spoken to dozens of Fox News reporters and producers on the record and on background. Based on those interviews, I believe the vast majority who came to Fox in the early years wanted to do objective journalism.

00:45:37 Speaker_05
And most of them, especially the ones in Washington, D.C., believed that's what they were doing. But we did speak to a couple of people who got disillusioned very quickly.

00:45:48 Speaker_05
Both of them worked in New York, and both had a close-up view of the men who ran Fox News Channel.

00:45:54 Speaker_04
Roger had touted me as being the face of Fox News.

00:45:57 Speaker_05
That's Mike Schneider. He hosted Fox's main nightly newscast, the Schneider Report. In our first episode, you heard about his 1996 election night debacle, when he tore a phone off the wall and Fox News' coverage got trampled by the dog movie Beethoven.

00:46:14 Speaker_05
After that, things went more smoothly, for a few months. But that all changed on January 26, 1997, during the Fox broadcast network's first-ever Super Bowl.

00:46:25 Speaker_17
Welcome to the Oscar Mayer Super Bowl 31 halftime show.

00:46:30 Speaker_18
And as halftime comes, all of a sudden... We interrupt this program for a Fox News Channel special report.

00:46:38 Speaker_04
I snapped too. That's our bumper music. That's our set. And I look at my wife and I said, what the hell's going on? They cut to Catherine Cryer, who was one of the other anchors, and she starts to deliver something about a prison break.

00:46:54 Speaker_04
And what it turns out to be was not a breaking news story. It was using the Fox News facilities, the Fox News graphics, a Fox News anchor. to provide the introduction to the Blues Brothers.

00:47:09 Speaker_26
All in the area, please beware. Now back to our regular programming.

00:47:13 Speaker_17
Welcome to Super Bowl 31, Blues Brothers Bash!

00:47:20 Speaker_04
We're a brand new news operation. We have not even begun to establish our credibility. This is probably the first time that 99% of the viewers even know that Fox News exists, and they're seeing this goofball stunt.

00:47:34 Speaker_05
— When I first heard about all this, I thought Mike was probably being a little sensitive. But in his defense, media critics also hated the fake Super Bowl news alert.

00:47:46 Speaker_05
One said that the concept of credibility continues to befuddle the alleged geniuses who oversee Fox News. Mike told another columnist that he'd been fooled by the fake alert, and that Roger Ailes had admitted to him that the joke fell totally flat.

00:48:01 Speaker_04
— I just felt it was a horrible way to introduce us to America, because we were trying to be a legitimate news organization.

00:48:10 Speaker_07
Mike's word carried a lot of weight at Fox. — It meant everything to me that Mike Schneider was at Fox News. To this day, I have so much respect for him.

00:48:18 Speaker_05
— Don Daler had been toiling behind the scenes as a producer at CBS when he learned about an opportunity to get in front of the camera at Fox.

00:48:27 Speaker_07
I remember thinking that they were not going to be this old, stodgy news network, that they were going to do some things that were fun and exciting.

00:48:35 Speaker_05
Don became Fox's investigative correspondent. And at first, everything was going amazingly well.

00:48:42 Speaker_07
I was very focused on trying to tell stories that weren't being told. You know, here's a hungry network that has all kinds of time to fill. And in the beginning, they took pretty much any idea I had.

00:48:54 Speaker_05
Not long after the Super Bowl, Don pitched a series of stories he was really excited about.

00:49:00 Speaker_07
On affirmative action, whether or not it had been successful in achieving its stated goals. Tell me what you've got there. I have a copy of the first script I submitted in this series.

00:49:18 Speaker_07
The suggested lead is, does it seem like the very fabric of our society is coming apart? Every day we hear about crime on the increase, drug use skyrocketing, the dismal education system, the widening gap between the races.

00:49:31 Speaker_07
Just how bad are things in this country? And why don't we hear more about the things that are good?

00:49:37 Speaker_05
Don's reporting found that despite those negative storylines, affirmative action was working. That government policies had helped Black Americans make progress economically and politically.

00:49:48 Speaker_07
My suggestion on camera at the end was, but for every rosy statistic I cite, you could come back with five depressing ones. The point is, for some reason, we're more likely to hear about doom and gloom

00:50:02 Speaker_07
like Benjamin Disraeli once said, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics, and maybe, sometimes, news reports. Don Daler, Fox News.

00:50:13 Speaker_05
Don's scripts would get approved by a Fox News VP, John Moody. Moody had come over from Time Magazine to run Fox's editorial operation. He'd oversee Fox's decision desk during the 2000 election.

00:50:26 Speaker_05
And in 1997, he weighed in on Don's affirmative action story. Don found Moody's notes so staggering that he's held onto them for almost 30 years.

00:50:37 Speaker_07
I'll just read part of it here. He said, Don, you started with a good idea that I supported, but it veers off into an uplifting account of African-American achievement.

00:50:46 Speaker_07
The story needs to be broadened with far more attention on the question you pose in the intro. Why do so many of us feel less happy, secure, and optimistic than we once did or think we did?

00:50:58 Speaker_05
Don revised his script and resubmitted it. Moody sent it back again, with a lot of red ink.

00:51:05 Speaker_07
Most of what he struck through were stats that were favorable to the African-American condition in this country. And then he scribbled at the bottom, this is not what our constituents want to hear.

00:51:15 Speaker_07
I took constituents to mean the people who viewed Fox News who were somewhat right-wing leaning. The word constituents is not something anybody in news ever uses. That's a political term, and that to me was beyond the pale.

00:51:31 Speaker_05
Moody didn't respond to our request for comment. But he said previously that his edits on Don's story were legitimate news decisions and did not reflect any political agenda. Don disagreed, strongly.

00:51:44 Speaker_05
He grabbed his marked-up script and headed up to Roger Ailes' office. When he found that Ailes wasn't there, he marched over to the next highest executive he could find, Chet Collier, Ailes' longtime right-hand man.

00:51:58 Speaker_05
Collier, who died in 2007, was the guy who told America's Talking's Terry Anser that women on TV just needed to be likable. Now Don had something he needed to tell Collier.

00:52:09 Speaker_07
— I said, you have to let me out of my contract, or this is going to the New York Times tomorrow. And what followed was,

00:52:18 Speaker_07
One of the more unpleasant moments of my life with a man that I liked and respected just screaming at me at the top of his lungs, calling me an idiot, saying, you just don't get it. This is not about journalism. This is about business.

00:52:29 Speaker_07
We are focused on supplying a part of society that has not gotten what they want. Don kept saying that it was about journalism, and he wanted out. He called security. Two gentlemen came up and they escorted me out of Chet's office.

00:52:44 Speaker_07
Chet followed us down the hall and at one point yelled, I've been in this business a long, long time. I'm a great judge of talent and mark my words, you're going to end up selling shoes for a living.

00:52:57 Speaker_05
A while later, Don got a job offer from another media outlet.

00:53:01 Speaker_07
They were doing their responsible due diligence, and they were calling up all my references and former employers and all. And when they contacted Fox News, Fox denied that I'd ever even worked there.

00:53:12 Speaker_05
For what it's worth, a Fox News spokesperson told us, no one that was here during that era has any recollection of this. But Don remembers exactly what he did when he signed a contract with ABC's Good Morning America. He bought a box of shoes.

00:53:27 Speaker_07
— And I wrote a little note to Chet Collier saying, Dear Chet, thanks for the advice, Don Daler. And I sent that off. I have no idea what his reaction was, but it sure felt good to do that.

00:53:39 Speaker_05
— Back in 1997, Don's departure from Fox got mentioned in a single sentence in New York magazine. But he's never told this story, until now.

00:53:51 Speaker_07
I don't think you want Roger Ailes as an enemy. And I don't think you want Fox News as an enemy. So I didn't want to pick a fight with them. I wanted only to go do the kind of journalism that I believed in.

00:54:02 Speaker_05
I get why Don didn't say anything publicly. But that silence meant that almost no one knew what Fox's editorial leaders had told him less than a year after the channel launched. That Fox News was about business, not journalism.

00:54:18 Speaker_05
And that appeasing its constituents, the viewers at home, was sometimes more important than telling the truth. One person who Don did confide in was his colleague Mike Schneider.

00:54:30 Speaker_04
It was like a hammer hitting me in the head. because it basically reinforced the concerns that I was having over the things that I was seeing.

00:54:39 Speaker_05
Mike had been appalled by Fox's fake Super Bowl news alert. But after that, he started getting into more serious journalistic conflicts, over a directive to make his primetime newscast more tabloidy.

00:54:51 Speaker_05
And what he felt was a ginned-up story on Fox's rival CNN going easy on Cuba. Mike would leave Fox News in 1997, the same year as Don Daler. But before he did, he went to Roger Ailes' office and asked to talk.

00:55:06 Speaker_04
— And he's mumbling and grumbling about a bunch of stuff. And he says to me, you've got to be loyal. And I said, what are you talking about? He said, well, you never should have said anything publicly about the Super Bowl thing.

00:55:18 Speaker_04
He said, you shouldn't be talking to the enemy. I said, what do you mean talking to the enemy? He said, the press is the enemy. I said, no, Roger, the press is us.

00:55:33 Speaker_05
Next time on Slow Burn. After September 11th, American journalists struggled to find their way. And Fox News marched confidently forward.

00:55:43 Speaker_27
I don't really like the feeling that I should show my patriotism on my sleeve. I'm okay with wearing an American flag. And I'm okay with putting it in my graphic. And if you're not, I think you need to examine who you are, not us.

00:56:00 Speaker_05
If you aren't already a Slate Plus member, please consider joining. You'll be supporting Slate's independent journalism, including the creation of this season and future seasons of Slow Burn.

00:56:10 Speaker_05
And by joining, you'll unlock full ad-free access to Slow Burn and all your other favorite Slate podcasts.

00:56:18 Speaker_05
Last week, members received an exclusive episode of The Rise of Fox News, featuring NPR media correspondent David Fokenflik and his fascinating stories from the 2000 election. We'll be back next week with another exclusive episode for our members.

00:56:32 Speaker_05
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00:56:45 Speaker_05
This season of Slowburn was written and reported by me, Josh Levine, an executive produced by Lizzie Jacobs. Slowburn is produced by Sophie Sommergrad, Joel Meyer, and Rosie Belson, with help from Patrick Fort, Jacob Finston, and Julia Russo.

00:57:00 Speaker_05
Derek John is Slowburn's executive producer. This season was edited by Susan Matthews and Hilary Fry. Merit Jacob is Senior Technical Director. Mix and sound design by Joe Plourd. Our theme music was composed by Alexis Quadrato.

00:57:14 Speaker_05
Derek Johnson created the artwork for this season. We had production help from Jared Downing and Lucy Wong. Gabriel Sherman's biography of Roger Ailes, The Loudest Voice in the Room, was a valuable resource in the making of this episode and series.

00:57:27 Speaker_05
So were Kerwin Swinsale's biography, Dark Genius, and the documentary Divide and Conquer, The Story of Roger Ailes. Special thanks to Rachel Strom, Patti Smith Barrett, Carol Martin, Nicole Himmer, John Cook, and Lauren Levine.

00:57:42 Speaker_05
and to Slates' Evan Chung, Madeline Ducharme, Forrest Wickman, Christina Cotarucci, Greg Lavallee, Ben Richmond, Seth Brown, Katie Rayford, Caitlin Schneider, Alexandra Cole, Emily Hodgkins, Ivy Lee Simonis, Joshua Metcalf, Heidi Strom Moon, and Alicia Montgomery, Slates' VP of Audio.

00:58:01 Speaker_05
Thanks for listening. See you next week.