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Episode: The Mark Zuckerberg Interview

Author: Ben Gilbert and David Rosenthal
Duration: 01:27:05

Episode Shownotes

Mark is the iconic founder CEO of our time. At Chase Center on September 10, 2024, he did an unprecedented thing: a live conversation in front of 6,000 people on Meta’s company strategy, sharing stories from early Facebook history, and his thoughts on the future of AI, VR, and AR.

Mark was remarkably candid in our discussion, and gave us a window into his real and intense daily demeanor leading Meta. (And his other life endeavors!)We can't wait to release the complete video of the whole night, including our surprise conversations with Daniel Ek, Emily Chang, and cameo appearances from Jensen Huang and Mike Taylor (the incredible singer of “Who Got the Truth?”). That’s coming in a couple weeks, but for now: enjoy this conversation with Mark Zuckerberg.Sponsors:Many thanks to our fantastic Fall ‘24 Season partners:J.P. Morgan PaymentsStatsigCrusoeLinks:Mike Amiri (who designed Mark’s shirt!)More Acquired:Get email updates with hints on next episode and follow-ups from recent episodesJoin the SlackSubscribe to ACQ2Check out the latest swag in the ACQ Merch Store!Photo Credit: Mark Zuckerberg by Jeff Sainlar / Meta‍Note: Acquired hosts and guests may hold assets discussed in this episode. This podcast is not investment advice, and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. You should do your own research and make your own independent decisions when considering any financial transactions.

Summary

In this episode, Mark Zuckerberg shares insights on the challenges of entrepreneurship, emphasizing the underestimated pain of startup journeys. He discusses Meta's evolution beyond a social media platform, focusing on enhancing human connection through augmented reality and AI. Zuckerberg details Meta's iterative product development strategy, which prioritizes user feedback, and addresses the balance between innovation and customer needs. He reflects on past mistakes and the political landscape's impact on Meta's reputation. Zuckerberg expresses ambitions for future 'awesome' products, urging a shift towards open platforms to foster innovation in a competitive tech landscape.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (The Mark Zuckerberg Interview) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_02
So, how many interviews with Marc do you think you watched before tonight?

00:00:04 Speaker_01
Oh, to prepare? Yeah. Uh, 30 to 40? The best ones are the 04 to 06 vintage, but they're all so different. It's almost like every three to four years is a new era that is markedly different from all the previous eras.

00:00:21 Speaker_02
Totally, and I think we might have witnessed the beginning of a new era right in front of us on stage.

00:00:27 Speaker_01
Oh, yes, absolutely.

00:00:28 Speaker_02
All right, should we do this? Let's do it.

00:00:32 Speaker_04
Who got the truth? Is it you? Is it you? Is it you? Who got the truth now? Is it you? Is it you? Is it you? Sit me down. Say it straight. Another story on the way. Who got the truth?

00:00:49 Speaker_01
Welcome to the Fall 2024 season of Acquired, the podcast about great companies and the stories and playbooks behind them. I'm Ben Gilbert. I'm David Resenthal. And we are your hosts.

00:01:00 Speaker_01
Listeners, we have something very special for you today, our interview with Mark Zuckerberg from Acquired live at Chase Center.

00:01:07 Speaker_05
Ooh.

00:01:08 Speaker_01
Mark is the iconic founder CEO of our time. And this conversation was just too good to hold on to any longer. So we are getting it out quickly before we release the full video of the entire show.

00:01:20 Speaker_02
which, speaking of the full show, was utterly amazing. We had surprise appearances from Jensen Huang, Daniel Ek, Emily Chang, and of course, we had the one and only Mike Taylor, the artist who sings, who got the truth, performing live.

00:01:36 Speaker_02
It was incredible. We've got basically a whole film production that's now happening behind the scenes with another 90 minutes of content beyond just this Marc interview. We should have that out in the next couple weeks, so stay tuned for that.

00:01:49 Speaker_01
First, though, a huge thank you to our partners this season. You know our presenting partner, JP Morgan Payments.

00:01:56 Speaker_02
And we are also pumped to have two more great returning sponsors this season.

00:02:00 Speaker_02
Statsig, the world's first product acceleration platform that thousands of companies from open AI to Series A startups rely on to ship fast, learn more, and make smart decisions. You can find out more about them at Statsig.com slash acquired.

00:02:13 Speaker_01
Sounds a lot like meta. And Crusoe, which is the world's best climate-aligned AI cloud and data center operator that is leading the industrial build-out of AI. Find out more about them at crusoe.ai slash acquired.

00:02:28 Speaker_01
As always, come discuss this afterwards with us in the Slack, acquired.fm slash slack. And if you want to be notified when every new episode drops, sign up at acquired.fm slash email.

00:02:40 Speaker_02
All right, one more thing before the interview. We need to say a huge, huge thank you to the entire JPMorgan Payments team for securing the Chase Center for this, for orchestrating the entire evening.

00:02:55 Speaker_02
Our partnership this year has been absolutely incredible and gone, I think, way beyond what either of us ever could have imagined.

00:03:01 Speaker_01
Yeah, for those who don't know about JPMorgan payments, they empower businesses to accept money, hold money, send money, protect money from fraud, and gain unique insights from money flows to help your company grow.

00:03:12 Speaker_02
Yep. And the payments business specifically, like most things at JPMorgan, is the largest and most trusted payments provider in the entire world. They move $10 trillion a day. That's almost 25% of all U.S. dollar payment flows in the global economy.

00:03:28 Speaker_02
Pretty much every single company that we cover on Acquired works with JPMorgan Payments in some way. You can never outgrow them.

00:03:35 Speaker_02
They partner with startups and small companies like us, like you would be, Ben, all the way up to the largest enterprises in the Fortune 500.

00:03:41 Speaker_01
Yeah, we've got more to share about their new payments products and technology this season, like the pay-by-face biometric payments that we saw live at Chase Center.

00:03:49 Speaker_02
Yeah, that was super cool.

00:03:51 Speaker_01
Yep, so that you can learn which may be the right fit to solve your payments challenges and grow your business.

00:03:57 Speaker_02
The other thing we gotta say is like, Ben and I really worked side by side all year with their incredible team to make this evening happen. And we really got to know them. Max, Umar, Dustin, Hannah, Vinny, Nick, Amy, Carly, and so many others.

00:04:10 Speaker_02
It's like we were one team. You guys rock.

00:04:13 Speaker_01
Yeah, for the first time, we actually got to experience what it would be like if Acquired was a large, world-class organization and not just, you know, our little team. And what happened at Chase Center is really the physical embodiment of that.

00:04:26 Speaker_02
Thank you guys for being the best partners we could ever imagine. And a very special shout out to Dustin Sedgwick, JP Morgan Payments CMO, who's a longtime listener of the show and a good friend of ours.

00:04:38 Speaker_02
And he's just been the driving force behind all of this. Without him, Chase Center wouldn't have happened. We're so grateful for our incredible relationship with you and all of JP Morgan.

00:04:47 Speaker_01
Yep. So please enjoy our conversation with Mark Zuckerberg and to take us in the chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Dimon.

00:04:57 Speaker_00
Hello, Acquired listeners. Welcome to the Chase Center and to Acquired Live. I'm Jamie Dimon, chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase. I'm happy to kick off the show tonight and welcome all of you to one of my favorite arenas.

00:05:10 Speaker_00
It's been a great partnership all year between JP Morgan Payments and Acquired, storytelling and educating about some of the greatest companies in the world.

00:05:18 Speaker_00
For many of them, just like many of you in the crowd, we're thrilled to call you friends and partners of the firm. Sorry I couldn't be there in person tonight, but I hope everyone enjoys the show. Ben and David, over to you. Mark.

00:05:33 Speaker_00
It's great to have you here.

00:05:34 Speaker_03
It's great to be here. You know, I was watching

00:05:37 Speaker_03
I was watching Jensen's video correcting the record and I was thinking to myself, we might need to book the next one of these for all the things I'm going to have to apologize for that I'm going to say tonight.

00:05:47 Speaker_02
Nah, just kidding.

00:05:48 Speaker_03
I don't apologize anymore.

00:05:53 Speaker_01
We've noticed.

00:05:55 Speaker_02
Okay, wait, wait. Here's the question. If you knew what you knew today... What's up? If you knew what you know today, would you have started Facebook?

00:06:03 Speaker_03
Oh, God. I mean, look, I think. Coming out hot, David. Yeah, no, I mean, he started it, literally.

00:06:11 Speaker_03
I think there's something to Jensen's original sentiment, which is that the entrepreneurial journey is very challenging, especially the early days when you're running a startup, and there's this sense that what you're doing could just die at any moment, and the volatility, everything's just getting thrashed so much, and it's not,

00:06:33 Speaker_03
You obviously look back, you have all these fond memories, but it was not the most fun part of the journey, or the part of my life that I wish I could go back and relive.

00:06:44 Speaker_03
So I do think that there's something to what Jensen was saying that I thought was very honest, and that when I heard him say it the first time, I was like, yeah, I get that. I think there are a lot of people for whom, if you knew how painful

00:07:03 Speaker_03
It would be along the way you wouldn't get started, but then you know, I think that that's one of the things that's good about Human nature is you can underestimate how painful things are going to be so that way you can go and do good things Well On that topic we have a lot to talk about.

00:07:20 Speaker_02
Yeah, I think this is actually very appropriate first We have to ask you about Your shirt and what you're wearing.

00:07:28 Speaker_03
Yeah, you know I am I started working with people to design some of my own clothes. And so I figure, you know, look, we're going to design eyewear. We're going to design other stuff that people wear. Let's get good at this.

00:07:47 Speaker_03
And so this one, I actually worked with this great fashion designer, Mike Amiri. And he's got a great story. So I wouldn't be surprised if you're doing one of these with him one day.

00:08:02 Speaker_03
This one is, so I've kind of started working on this series of shirts with some of my favorite classical sayings on them. So this one is Pathemathos, learning through suffering. It's a little family saying and also Aeschylus.

00:08:26 Speaker_02
Was that your family saying growing up, or is that your family now?

00:08:34 Speaker_01
Well, no, let's pull that thread. No pun intended, I promise. What does learning through suffering mean to you?

00:08:46 Speaker_03
Well, I think you learn what matters to you and what's important and kind of your place in the world through repeatedly hitting your head against different challenges. And I mean, I think that that is sort of, that's the journey, right?

00:08:58 Speaker_03
I mean, that's the entrepreneurial journey. It's also, I think, part of the beauty of building things. But this is something that Jensen talks a lot about too, right? It's like, I feel like,

00:09:13 Speaker_03
You know, when you go to start a company, everyone kind of writes down what they would like their values to be, but values are not what you write down on the wall. It's like your lived behaviors.

00:09:24 Speaker_03
And you only really learn what you care about when you have to make hard trade-offs and face challenges. So, yeah, you learn the most important things through facing challenges.

00:09:39 Speaker_02
Well, speaking of facing challenges, we want to talk about a number of those because we counted, by our count, I think you have faced more existential challenges than any meaningful company in history through your first 20 years. First though,

00:09:57 Speaker_02
dubious distinction.

00:09:59 Speaker_01
We will make our case to you of why and enumerate them. You're still here.

00:10:02 Speaker_03
That's good. But first. But first, I kind of think my, you know like that old Nike Michael Jordan ad where he's talking about how he's failed over and over and over again and that's how he succeeds? That one really resonates with me too.

00:10:14 Speaker_02
So thanks to you guys, I got a pair of these this summer. And I genuinely love them. Tell us the story of how these came to be.

00:10:28 Speaker_03
Yes, so... Thanks, I'm excited about them too. You know, at Metta, we've been building social experiences for 20 years now. And originally, it took the form of a website, then mobile apps.

00:10:47 Speaker_03
But the thing is, I never thought about us as a social media company. We're not a social app company. We are a social connection company. We talk about what we're doing is building the future of human connection.

00:11:04 Speaker_03
that's not only going to be constrained over time to what you can do on a phone, right, on a small screen. So when you think about, you know, when we got started, OK, we were like a handful of kids.

00:11:16 Speaker_03
You know, we weren't able, we didn't have the resources at the time to go define whatever the next computing platform is.

00:11:20 Speaker_03
And also, you know, Facebook originally got started around the same time as a bunch of the early smartphones and those platforms got started. So we didn't really get to play any role in developing that platform.

00:11:31 Speaker_03
And one of the big themes, I think, for the next chapter of what we do is I want to be able to build what I think are sort of the ideal experiences, not just what you're allowed to build on some platform that someone else built, but what is actually, if you can think from first principles, what is the ideal social experience?

00:11:53 Speaker_03
So I think what you would like to have It's not a phone that you look down at that kind of takes your attention away from the things and the people around you, not just a small screen. I think what you ideally have is glasses.

00:12:10 Speaker_03
Through the glasses, there's one part of it where the glasses, they can see what you see and they can hear what you hear. And in doing so, they can be kind of the perfect AI assistant for you because they have context on what you're doing.

00:12:22 Speaker_03
But then part of that is also that the glasses can project images, basically like holograms, out into the world. And that way, your social experiences with other people aren't constrained to these little interactions you can have on a phone screen.

00:12:38 Speaker_03
In the not so distant future, you can imagine, because you guys have demoed some of the stuff that we've done, a version of this where we're having a conversation like this, but maybe one of us isn't even here.

00:12:52 Speaker_03
They're just like a hologram, and we have glasses. And it really, there's the question of, delivering a realistic sense of presence.

00:12:58 Speaker_03
There's something magical in the realm of building social experiences around the feeling of human presence and being there with another person and this physical perception where we're very physical beings.

00:13:11 Speaker_03
People like to intellectualize everything, but a lot of our experience is very physical.

00:13:15 Speaker_03
And this physical sense of presence that you are with another person doing things in the physical world is something that you're going to be able to do through holograms

00:13:24 Speaker_03
through glasses without being taken away from whatever else you're doing just kind of have that mixed in with the rest the world. It's going to be I think the ultimate. digital social experience.

00:13:39 Speaker_03
And I think it's also going to be the ultimate incarnation of AI, because you're going to have conversations where it's like, all right, there's some people. It's like maybe I'm physically here. There's a person. You're a hologram there.

00:13:51 Speaker_03
There's an AI that is embodied as someone is there. And the glasses will enable this. So how are we going after this, building this? This is some huge project. We've been working on it for 10 years.

00:14:04 Speaker_03
And there are a lot of different challenges to solve to get there. You have to build a novel display stack. These aren't just screens like the kind that are in phones. There's this long lineage.

00:14:16 Speaker_03
They're connected to the screens that have been in TVs and monitors and things for a long time. There's been this massive optimization of the supply chain. There's brand new display stack around holographic displays that basically need to get created.

00:14:29 Speaker_03
And then they need to be put into glasses. They need to be miniaturized. And you also, in the glasses, need to fit chips, microphones, speakers, cameras, eye tracking to be able to understand what you're doing, batteries to make it last all day.

00:14:46 Speaker_01
So then it's like a new novel RF protocols.

00:14:49 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's like, OK, it's a pretty big challenge. So we're like, all right, let's go try to go for the big thing. And we've been working on that for a while.

00:14:59 Speaker_03
And we're pretty close to being able to show off the first prototype that we have of that, and I'm really excited about that.

00:15:06 Speaker_03
At the same time, we also came at it from this lens of, all right, so that's a lot of new technology that needs to get developed, a lot to pack into a form factor, because the glasses have to be good looking, too.

00:15:18 Speaker_03
So what if we just constrain ourselves to like we're gonna work with a great partner, Essilor Luxottica, they make Ray-Ban, they make a lot of the iconic glasses. Let's see what we can fit into glasses today and make them as useful as possible.

00:15:33 Speaker_03
And I actually, I kind of thought when we were getting started with those that it was almost like a practice project. for the ultimate AR.

00:15:45 Speaker_01
Which, let's be clear, that's what you thought Facebook was.

00:15:48 Speaker_03
That's true. That's true. Yeah, it did.

00:15:50 Speaker_01
Like for your real startup someday. That's true.

00:15:52 Speaker_03
Yeah, no, this is, yeah, let's go on a tangent there for a second. So I started Facebook in school, came out to Silicon Valley with Dustin and a handful of people working on it at the time.

00:16:03 Speaker_03
And we did that because Silicon Valley's where all the startups came from. And I remember we got off the plane and we were driving down 101. We're like, wow, eBay, Yahoo, this is amazing. All these great companies.

00:16:14 Speaker_03
One day, maybe we'll build a company like this. And I'd already started Facebook. And I was like, surely the project that we're working on now is not a company.

00:16:22 Speaker_01
And Facebook had some scale at this point.

00:16:25 Speaker_03
Oh, no, no. It was a great project. I just didn't have the ambition to turn it into a company at the time. That just kind of happened. But anyway.

00:16:36 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, a lot of hard work, obviously, but I just at the time I was kind of like, yeah, I don't think this is it.

00:16:44 Speaker_02
Well, that's your answer of would you have started.

00:16:47 Speaker_03
You actually didn't try to start Facebook. I didn't know. So yeah. So I mean, the glasses, though, we thought that this was like, all right, we want to get working with Estellora Luxottica so we can start building more and more advanced glasses.

00:16:59 Speaker_03
And then they're really good. They look good. And then AI, like the massive transformation in AI.

00:17:05 Speaker_01
So for listeners, let's just be really clear. You guys shipped this product that I'm holding before LLMs, or at least before the public consciousness was aware of the chat GPT moment, and these were not manufactured and shipped as an AI device.

00:17:23 Speaker_01
That came later when they were already in market.

00:17:26 Speaker_03
Yeah, a few years ago, I would have predicted that AR holograms would have been available before full-scale AI. And now I think it's probably going to be the other order. So now it's like, all right, great.

00:17:39 Speaker_03
Well, this is actually a great product, because it's got the cameras so it can see what you see. It's got the microphone. It's got the speakers. You can talk to it.

00:17:46 Speaker_03
I remember calling Alex Himmel, the guy who runs the product group that's running it, and I'm like, Hey, you know, I think we should probably pivot this and make it so that meta AI is the primary feature of it.

00:17:57 Speaker_03
And then, like, I remember I came in the next week, and they built a prototype of it on Tuesday. And it was like, all right, good. Yeah, no, this is good. This is going to be a very successful product.

00:18:05 Speaker_02
He told us a much more high stakes version of that story.

00:18:09 Speaker_01
I was on the highway with my kids, and I get this call on a Saturday from Mark. And he's like, those glasses. Could we put meta AI in them running on device and ship that soon so we can see if that's a good idea or not?

00:18:24 Speaker_03
Yeah, that tracks. That's what I just said. Sounds right.

00:18:38 Speaker_01
Thank you for opening up with a story. The question that I would like to try to answer tonight is, why has Meta worked as spectacularly well as it has?

00:18:49 Speaker_01
I mean, one of the most valuable companies in the world, through multiple iterations, multiple technology waves, fighting off, you know, maybe, let's name all the waves in which people said, oh, Facebook and Meta are so screwed, and yet, that is not the way it looks today.

00:19:08 Speaker_02
MySpace, Twitter Gen 1, Instagram, Snapchat, WhatsApp, TikTok.

00:19:18 Speaker_01
Apple app tracking transparency.

00:19:20 Speaker_02
ATT, you could put in its own whole category. And now, Chat GPT.

00:19:25 Speaker_01
That's mine. There is a widely held public narrative every single time Snapchat discovers stories. There's something where people are like, oh, the cool thing that Facebook, the company, did is just obsolete now, and they're going to go away.

00:19:40 Speaker_01
You very much haven't gone away. What do you think is the through line of the DNA of the company that allows you to keep winning?

00:19:51 Speaker_03
I think it's that we're a technology company that is focused on human connection, not a specific type of app. So we never thought about ourselves as a website or a social network or anything like that.

00:20:09 Speaker_03
For me, building this kind of glasses to enable the future of people being able to feel present with another person no matter where they actually physically are is the natural continuation of the kind of apps that we build today.

00:20:24 Speaker_03
But it depends on how you define what you are. And then you need to figure out well, how do you give yourself the competence to actually go do that? And that's where I think being a strong technology company comes in.

00:20:36 Speaker_03
Because a lot of companies, I think, think about themselves too narrowly in terms of, OK, well, we're this kind of one thing. And the reason why we can build all these things is because we have a really strong technology foundation.

00:20:52 Speaker_03
And some of that is just me and how I think about stuff. I was an engineer before I got started. I mostly took systems engineering type classes when I was in college.

00:21:05 Speaker_03
So you talk about Friendster and MySpace and all the scaling challenges they had doing the graph calculations of, all right, do you know this person? Should you show them their page?

00:21:13 Speaker_02
Yeah. Yeah, actually, can you take us back? And we want to ask you the story of that time. I mean, it seems quaint now, Friendster, MySpace.

00:21:22 Speaker_02
you study computer science, graph networking, social graphs, that is a very, very difficult computational calculation.

00:21:33 Speaker_03
a product question and a technology question. I think you can define the product in such a general way that the technology becomes basically impossible to solve.

00:21:41 Speaker_03
So you want to have a smart product definition, but then you want to be competent and better than everyone else at the technology. And I think that that's something that we've held ourselves to and built a good organization around.

00:21:54 Speaker_03
And it's one of the things that I observed as soon as I came out to the valley, that all these companies that call themselves technology companies were not really set up that way. The companies I was talking about, it's like they

00:22:10 Speaker_03
You know, the CEO wasn't technical, the board of directors had no one technical on it, they had like one dude on the management team who was the head of engineering who was technical and like everyone else wasn't.

00:22:22 Speaker_03
It's like, all right, if that's your team, then you're not a technology company. So I think one of the things that I've always been pretty careful about is I actually want

00:22:33 Speaker_03
like a lot of the people on our management team, it's like split, it's mostly people running either of these big product groups who come up through different technical pathways at the company, and I think that there's like a balance, right?

00:22:45 Speaker_03
It's like you don't want everyone to be an engineer because there's other things that matter too, but if you don't have enough of your kind of share of the company as engineers, then you're not a technology company.

00:22:55 Speaker_03
And I think that that also is important to the board. And I think just like in terms of how you weigh decisions and culturally things inside the company matters a lot. But I think that that's one of the things that has been really fundamental.

00:23:10 Speaker_03
Where it's like we're able to kind of go from platform to platform and do these different things because we've invested and cared about the underlying technology.

00:23:19 Speaker_03
The product experiences that we build on top of that are an implementation and they matter. And for that, I think, we also, I think, are a pretty curious and learning-focused organization where

00:23:32 Speaker_03
You know, I view the product strategy less as any one specific thing and more as how do we iterate and learn as quickly as possible how to make each thing better for the people we're trying to serve.

00:23:48 Speaker_03
Right, so I define our strategy as we can learn faster than every other company, we're gonna win. We're gonna build a better product than everyone else because we're gonna get it out first, or early. We're going to have a good feedback loop.

00:24:00 Speaker_03
We're gonna get a bunch of feedback. We're gonna learn what people like better than other people.

00:24:05 Speaker_03
And then over time, by the time you get to, you know, whether it's version three or four or five, I mean, they're not even discrete versions because we ship so frequently. It's, you just, you learn faster. So that's basically the formula.

00:24:18 Speaker_03
Be a technology company, build good foundation, learn from what people are kind of focused on in the world, and iterate as quickly as you can.

00:24:28 Speaker_01
In one of my research calls to prep for this, someone described you as a master strategist, which we all sort of acknowledge that at this point.

00:24:37 Speaker_03
I mean, except for all the stuff that I just thought was not going to be that important that ended up actually being the most important. But you're very generous.

00:24:47 Speaker_03
Part of it is like, OK, you want to set up the game so that way you optimize, you create your luck.

00:24:51 Speaker_02
This is what Jensen told us. The apple's gonna fall from the tree in some direction, and if you just set up the game that you have a hand close enough to catch it.

00:25:03 Speaker_01
The comment that someone made to me was the reason Mark is such a good strategist is because he plays the company as if it's a turn-based strategy game, and he just makes sure he gets more turns than anybody else, and he makes sure that he learns more from each turn than the next player does.

00:25:21 Speaker_01
Do you feel like that encapsulates Meta's product development? But it does kind of feel like the way that you make bets is like, well, if we have great engineering, then that can kind of take care of the speed part.

00:25:34 Speaker_01
That's like many iterations or multiple at-bats.

00:25:38 Speaker_03
And then the... Well, great engineering and speed and duration are actually two different values.

00:25:43 Speaker_03
They're not necessarily at odds, but I think there are a lot of great engineering organizations that try to build things that are super high quality and have good competence around that. But there's a certain...

00:25:57 Speaker_03
personality that goes with kind of taking your stuff and putting it out there before it's fully polished. And look, I'm not saying that our strategy or approach on this is the only one that works.

00:26:08 Speaker_03
I think in a lot of ways, we're like the opposite of Apple. And clearly, their stuff has worked really well, too. But I mean, they take this approach. It's like, we're going to take a long time. We're going to polish it. We're going to put it out.

00:26:20 Speaker_03
And maybe for the stuff that they're doing that works, maybe that just fits with their culture.

00:26:25 Speaker_03
But for us, I think that there are a lot of conversations that we have internally where you're almost at the line of being embarrassed about what you put out.

00:26:37 Speaker_03
Because it's obviously not in the sense that it's like, you want to put stuff out early enough so you can get good feedback. You obviously want to test things that are reasonable hypotheses.

00:26:52 Speaker_03
So if it's so ineffective, then you're not testing a good hypothesis. That doesn't work.

00:26:57 Speaker_03
But I do think a lot of the conversations that we have are like, OK, well, we can get this to be a lot better if we work on it for another couple of months or whatever.

00:27:07 Speaker_03
I do just think that you want to really have a culture that values shipping and getting things out and getting feedback more than needing always to get great positive accolades from people when you put stuff out.

00:27:20 Speaker_03
Because I think if you want to wait until you get praised all the time, you're missing a bunch of the time when you could have learned a bunch of useful stuff and then incorporated that into the next version you were going to ship.

00:27:32 Speaker_01
And it's just about making sure that what the thing that the company is known for or its brand can withstand all the little damage that you do to it by shipping stuff that's not quite ready.

00:27:42 Speaker_03
Well, I would like to hope that it's not damaging to the brand.

00:27:45 Speaker_01
Well, but innately it is. Like when you're like, oh, I feel bad because I shipped a product that wasn't good enough, you're sort of

00:27:54 Speaker_03
Yeah, no, I don't want to overstate it. I mean, we don't ship things that we think are bad, but we also don't take... we want to make sure that we're shipping things that...

00:28:04 Speaker_03
that are kind of early enough that we can get good feedback to see what they're going to be most used for.

00:28:08 Speaker_03
Like I think a lot of the AI stuff that we're building now, for example, it actually, you know, it's pretty clear that AI is going to be transformative for a lot of different things.

00:28:17 Speaker_03
It is actually less clear what are going to be the initial use cases for a lot of these things that are super valuable.

00:28:23 Speaker_03
And so, okay, part of it is like, okay, you put something out, you want to kind of collect feedback and what people are actually, what it's, you know, where it's resonating.

00:28:33 Speaker_03
If what you put out is bad, then you're not going to collect good data, because people aren't going to use it for anything, because it sucks. But I do think that you have hypotheses for what people might really want to use it for.

00:28:45 Speaker_03
And they're not all going to be right. And you want to go early enough on that as more. Yeah.

00:28:49 Speaker_01
So I'm building to this question of, to you, is product creation an act of invention or discovery?

00:29:01 Speaker_01
Like, is David always inside that marble and you just need the very best tooling and ability to get things in market and get feedback to discover the statue of David?

00:29:11 Speaker_01
Or do you conceive of David in your head and I'm like, I'm going to make this and put it in the world?

00:29:17 Speaker_03
Does it have to be one or the other? I mean, I think it's a combination. I think you're basically taking some kind of values

00:29:24 Speaker_03
either kind of like values that you have or a value for something that you believe should exist in the world and trying to build something that's aligned with that while trying to match it up with what is going to resonate the most with people.

00:29:40 Speaker_03
I think if you just do the latter, then I think you just don't have enough conviction to see through hard things.

00:29:48 Speaker_03
And if you just do the former, then you probably don't get to product market fit or optimize what you do because you're not focused enough on your customers. So I think both probably matter. Yeah.

00:30:03 Speaker_01
That I'm like as I pour through all these historical examples There's like the market discovers some other participant in the markets discovers the stories format and suddenly the whole world is like, oh my god That is the way that we all that's the social interaction mechanism and that's like a pretty pure discovery where you have products that have stories they perform very well and

00:30:27 Speaker_01
that's been discovered.

00:30:27 Speaker_01
But there's other times, it feels like everything you're trying to do in reality labs, all, you know, 50 plus billion dollars that you've put into it, is like, we're going to freaking wheel this thing into existence because I have an idea of the way that I want the world to be.

00:30:40 Speaker_01
I'm not really, like, asking for that much feedback. I'm putting it in the world. Well, it's a combination.

00:30:46 Speaker_03
I mean, I think that there's There's certainly a lot of things that we've invented or created for the first time. I mean, like in 2006, when we built the first version of News Feed, before that, social networks were basically profiles.

00:30:58 Speaker_03
And then we were like, hey, people actually kind of want to get the updates, and let's show them that. And if we rank them, then we can, you know, there's so many updates that this can help people parse through that quickly.

00:31:06 Speaker_03
And today, it's hard to imagine any social product without a feed. So I think that that's obviously, some of these things are sort of seminal. I don't want to call it an invention, but like patterns that we basically established first.

00:31:21 Speaker_03
And then some of them are ones that other people did, where we take pride in learning from what is working in the world.

00:31:31 Speaker_03
We're not embarrassed about learning from things that other people discovered that were good first, and then we build a better version of it. I mean, I think that that's... You know, no one company is going to invent everything.

00:31:49 Speaker_03
I think if you don't invent anything, then it's hard to kind of be a successful company. But I do think that there's a mix of this. There are more smart people outside of your company than inside your company.

00:32:00 Speaker_03
If you're not learning from what's going on in the market, then you're missing a lot of opportunities to get valuable signal from people in the community and customers about what they want you to be doing.

00:32:10 Speaker_02
Which speaks to the thesis of Facebook as a technology company. Meta is a technology company. We'll get to that later. Ben and I have been having a conversation. I want to take this to open source and open source technology and its importance to you.

00:32:31 Speaker_02
And Ben posited, first to me and then to many other people in our calls over the last couple weeks, that Meta has been the largest beneficiary of open source technology in the modern world. And I'm curious if you would agree with that.

00:32:49 Speaker_02
if you would comment on your relationship to open source?

00:32:53 Speaker_03
I think almost all of the major technology companies at this point are primarily using open source stacks. So yeah, I mean, I don't know, we wouldn't have been able to get built without open source.

00:33:03 Speaker_03
I think probably that's true for any new company that's been created since like, I don't know, 19, the late 1990s or something. For us, open source has been important and valuable.

00:33:17 Speaker_02
I mean, you were the first big company built on the LAMP stack.

00:33:23 Speaker_03
Yeah. Yeah, no, and it's great. It makes it super easy to develop stuff quickly and iterate quickly. But we've also had an interesting relationship with this, because sequentially, as a company, we came after Google.

00:33:33 Speaker_03
So Google was the first of the great companies that built this distributed computing infrastructure. So they came first. So they were like, all right, let's keep this proprietary, because it's a big advantage for us.

00:33:44 Speaker_03
And then we're like, all right, we need that too. But we built it. And then we're like, OK, not an advantage for us, because Google already has that. So we might as well just make it open.

00:33:54 Speaker_03
And by making it open, then you basically get this whole community of people building around it. So it wasn't going to help us compete with Google for, any of the stuff that we were doing to have that technology.

00:34:05 Speaker_03
But what we were able to do with things like Open Compute were get it to become the industry standard. So now you have all these other cloud service platforms that basically use Open Compute.

00:34:17 Speaker_03
And because of that, the supply chain is standardized around our designs, which means that it's way more supply, way cheaper to produce. We've saved billions of dollars. And the quality of the stuff that we get to use goes up.

00:34:29 Speaker_03
So all right, that's like a win-win. I think in order for this to work, we do a lot of open-source stuff, we do a lot of closed-source stuff. I'm not like a zealot on this.

00:34:41 Speaker_03
I think open-source is very valuable, but I also think it sort of makes sense for us because of our position in the market. And the same for AI. I'm an Iran llama.

00:34:49 Speaker_02
This is where we were going with this.

00:34:52 Speaker_03
You know, similar deal. You know, we want to make sure that we have access to a leading AI model, right?

00:35:00 Speaker_03
I think just like we want to build the hardware so that we can build the best social experiences for the next 20 years, I don't think that, you know, for us, it's like we've just been

00:35:11 Speaker_03
We've been through too much stuff with the other platforms to fully depend on anyone else. And we're a big enough company at this point that we don't have to.

00:35:19 Speaker_03
We can build our own core technology platforms, whether that's going to be AR glasses or mixed reality or AI. So I think that's somewhat of an imperative for us to go do that. But these things are not like pieces of software that are monolithic.

00:35:34 Speaker_03
They're ecosystems. They get better when other people use them. So for us, There's a huge amount of good. And it philosophically lines up with where we are. We're like, I mean, look, I definitely firsthand have a lot of experiences.

00:35:48 Speaker_03
We were trying to build stuff on mobile platforms. The platforms are just like, nah, you can't build that. That's frustrating.

00:35:55 Speaker_02
Can we take a real quick detour?

00:35:57 Speaker_03
What's up?

00:35:57 Speaker_02
I really want to ask you something.

00:35:58 Speaker_03
We can take a detour.

00:35:59 Speaker_02
OK. You took a detour. We're going to take a detour. Help us with our research here. The eve of the IPO.

00:36:07 Speaker_03
Yeah, this is quite a detour. Quite a detour.

00:36:11 Speaker_02
I really am grabbing the wheel here.

00:36:12 Speaker_01
Is this connected, or did you just decide that it was your turn to talk?

00:36:17 Speaker_03
I'm sorry. I was really wound up.

00:36:20 Speaker_01
I know. Open source and AI. We'll get back.

00:36:23 Speaker_03
It's going to be tough to get back to this.

00:36:25 Speaker_02
I think it's related. I do. I really genuinely do. Facebook on mobile is HTML5. In 2012. May 2012.

00:36:32 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah.

00:36:38 Speaker_02
I want to ask you what you were thinking going into the IPO with Facebook on mobile being HTML5 and what happened, you IPO at $100 billion market cap over the next three months, you have a 50% drawdown, probably because of that.

00:36:54 Speaker_02
But I guess the related question to what we're talking about now is, How much is that informing your approach here with AI?

00:37:04 Speaker_03
It was a pretty different technical issue. So our legacy was building on web for websites. And we were very used to building one thing and being able to continuously deploy it. And it fits with our iteration style and all that.

00:37:18 Speaker_03
So now, all of a sudden, this app model comes along. And it's like, we have to build, like, different ones for each phone. And you have to go through approval to get it shipped. And we have to wait weeks before it can ship. It's like, this sucks.

00:37:32 Speaker_03
So we're like, all right, we have an idea. Let's build this platform where we can get a web-based platform. So you basically build a native shell. And you build this web-based platform in it. And we'll be able to just update our apps every day.

00:37:46 Speaker_03
And we'll ship one thing once. And we'll update our apps across Android and iPhone.

00:37:51 Speaker_03
blackberry and windows mobile and all the stuff that existed at the time because it hadn't gotten consolidated yet and like that's going to be that's what we're like basically whatever downside we are going to have from not having the most native thing we're going to make up for in velocity and by having like way more of our energy focused on one platform.

00:38:12 Speaker_03
Well, we were wrong. It turned out that having the native integration was actually critical for having the interactions feel good. And so we basically went through this period where we had to go rewrite our apps from scratch.

00:38:28 Speaker_03
And that coincided with mobile growing dramatically. And mobile, we didn't have any revenue. Because it may seem like it's pretty similar, but there's a very big difference.

00:38:40 Speaker_03
On desktop, you basically have the app, and you have a column on the side that we could put ads. And on mobile, we needed to figure out, what does it mean to put ads into the experience?

00:38:52 Speaker_01
Let's be clear. The feed ad had not been invented yet. The ad unit of our time.

00:38:55 Speaker_03
Yeah, that was the thing that the team did.

00:38:56 Speaker_03
Yeah, and advertisers have specific formats that they like working with, and the idea that we were just going to be like, all right, now your ad is going to look like a feed story was a big challenge for advertisers.

00:39:07 Speaker_03
And the idea that now, for people, you were going to have this organic feed that was the most important part of the product, and now we're just going to start putting ads in it was a challenge for the people using the product.

00:39:20 Speaker_03
We needed to figure that out, and we needed to get the apps to be better.

00:39:23 Speaker_03
And we basically took, I think it must have been like a year or something, where we're just like, look, we're going to pause feature development of the company because it's hard enough to do a rewrite.

00:39:34 Speaker_03
If you look at the history of the tech industry, there are all these examples like Netscape and all these things that they tried to do a rewrite. They needed to reestablish their technical platform. And they also tried to add features.

00:39:45 Speaker_03
They basically just never terminated. So that's a real risk when you're completely changing your underlying platform that you're going to miss it. I was like, all right, we've got to minimize the chance that that happens.

00:39:57 Speaker_03
So we're not going to ship any new features. We're just going to rewrite it, make it faster. But while we're doing this, basically mobile is growing. So the percent of our traffic that is monetizable

00:40:12 Speaker_03
is shrinking, because web is basically shrinking, and mobile's growing.

00:40:15 Speaker_02
And that's your only business model.

00:40:17 Speaker_03
Yeah, and I was like, all right, like, okay.

00:40:18 Speaker_01
And you're now recently quarterly reporting.

00:40:19 Speaker_03
You know, Bill, the thing is, it was actually pretty clear what we needed to do. You know, I think strategically, a lot of the time, it's somewhat harder to know what to do when you're winning.

00:40:29 Speaker_03
Like, when stuff is going well, it's like, what is the next move to, like, go from winning to winning more? But when you're losing, it's usually pretty clear what you have to do.

00:40:40 Speaker_03
And I think a lot of it is just, do you have the pain tolerance to go do it? So a lot of this was like, all right, the team was like, OK.

00:40:50 Speaker_03
Well, we're going public and investors really aren't going to like this if we are not making money for a year and a half. And it's like, well, a year and a half is short in the grand scheme of things. Let's do this. And we did it.

00:41:05 Speaker_03
And it was a painful year and a half. And then we came out of that, and we were in great shape. So I think people inside the company had felt a lot better sooner because it was pretty clear to people that we were doing the right thing.

00:41:17 Speaker_03
And they knew that we were executing in a responsible way and basically focused and we're doing the right thing.

00:41:25 Speaker_03
But I think it's actually when you have something that's working well and you're on one local hill and you need to jump to another hill, that's the stuff that's really culturally hard. But this one I think was, it was not fun.

00:41:40 Speaker_03
There have been a series of periods throughout the company that were not, I don't know, not the most fun periods. Although that one, in retrospect, looks pretty good in retrospect. It's like, not that bad.

00:41:53 Speaker_03
It's like your market cap only got cut in half for a year and a half. Great. Great. Yeah, I'll take that.

00:42:04 Speaker_01
Anyway, where were we? So David asked, hey, can you help us with our research? Can I follow that thread that you just said? Hey, that one wasn't so bad. There's been a lot of amazing things the company has done. There's also been a lot of criticism.

00:42:21 Speaker_01
If you were to be self-critical of your own company, of your own creation, of all the criticisms that have happened over the years, which do you believe is the most legitimate and why?

00:42:30 Speaker_03
I mean, there's so many things that we've messed up that there are many criticisms that are legitimate. But if that was a year and a half mistake,

00:42:46 Speaker_03
I think, you know, one of the things I reflect on over the last like 10 years or so was, you know, the political environment just changed dramatically, right?

00:42:53 Speaker_03
It's like before 2016 there was like not a month that went by except for maybe this IPO period where the sentiment about the company was anything but positive.

00:43:02 Speaker_03
And then after 2016, after the election, basically there was not a month for a while where the sentiment about the company was positive. And we, I think so much of this stuff is correctly understanding your place in the world and in history.

00:43:18 Speaker_03
We talked about before how it's like, I think we understood that we are a technology company, and that you have to be a technology company to build this kind of thing.

00:43:29 Speaker_03
I think we understood that we're not a social network company, we're a human connection company, and that will take different forms over time. The political environment, I think, I didn't have much, sophistication around.

00:43:42 Speaker_03
And I think I just fundamentally misdiagnosed the problem. So I think that there was this basic challenge. And there were a lot of things. I don't want to simplify this too much. I mean, there were a lot of things that we did wrong.

00:43:53 Speaker_03
There were some things that we did right. But I think one of the things that I look back on and regret is I think we accepted

00:44:04 Speaker_03
other people's view of some of the things that they were asserting that we were doing wrong or were responsible for that I don't actually think we were. There were a lot of things we did mess up and we needed to fix.

00:44:21 Speaker_03
But I think that there's this view where when you're a company and someone says that there's an issue, I think the right instinct is to take ownership for it.

00:44:33 Speaker_03
Say like, okay, maybe it's not all our thing, but we're gonna fully own this problem, we're gonna take responsibility for it, we're gonna fix it. But when it's a political problem, I actually think a lot of the time,

00:44:47 Speaker_03
Sometimes there are people who are operating in good faith who are identifying a problem that wants something to be fixed, and there are people who are just looking for someone to blame.

00:44:55 Speaker_03
And I think to some degree, if you take responsibility for things because you think it's a corporate crisis, not a political crisis, And your view is like, OK, I'm going to take responsibility for all this stuff.

00:45:10 Speaker_03
People are basically blaming social media and the tech industry for all these different things in society.

00:45:16 Speaker_03
And if we're saying, OK, we're going to really do our part to go fix this stuff, I know there were a bunch of people who just took that and were like, oh, you're taking responsibility for that? Let me kick you for more stuff.

00:45:27 Speaker_03
And honestly, I think we should have been firmer and clearer about which of the things we actually felt like we had a part in and which ones we didn't. And my guess is if the IPO was a year and a half mistake.

00:45:42 Speaker_03
I think that the political miscalculation was a 20 year mistake.

00:45:47 Speaker_03
And so it started in 2016 and I think that we have been working super hard to fix a lot of issues and to figure out kind of what the right tone is for navigating what is a very kind of fraught political dynamic across both the country and multiplied across all these places around the world and I think we've

00:46:05 Speaker_03
sort of found our footing on what the principles are, where we think we need to improve stuff, but where people make allegations about the impact of the tech industry or our company, which are just not founded in any fact, that I think we should push back on harder.

00:46:22 Speaker_03
And I think it's going to take another 10 years or so for us to fully work through that cycle before our brand and all of that is back to the place that it maybe could have been if I hadn't messed that up in the first place.

00:46:37 Speaker_03
But look, in the grand scheme of things, 20 years isn't that bad either. And we'll get through it. And I think we'll come out stronger. But I do think that is one of the kind of more interesting critiques that I think people get.

00:46:52 Speaker_03
And we get critiques on both sides on that. There are people who don't think we've taken enough responsibility. But I think certainly there's one line of critique, which is you kind of bought into too much of the stuff that you shouldn't have.

00:47:04 Speaker_03
And yeah, I think it's going to take us a long time to dig out of that.

00:47:09 Speaker_01
Do you have a reasonable framework at this point for like, OK, here's the stuff where I feel like we actually do want to take responsibility for it, and here's the stuff where we're like, no, that's not our fault?

00:47:19 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, at this point, I think a lot of this stuff has been studied. So I mean, I don't want to go rehash all the different things. But I think at this point, there's been years of academic research on a lot of these things.

00:47:31 Speaker_03
And part of the thing that's challenging is, and one of the things that we've learned, is we actually should be trying to support more academics and doing more of this research ahead of time.

00:47:38 Speaker_03
Because when you get to a point where you're being accused of something, you're not super credible, just standing up yourself and being like, I don't think we did this one.

00:47:49 Speaker_03
But what has worked over time is like, you do the research in advance and you get kind of third party academics, respected folks who get to debate all these different issues and then it's like, oh no, actually the evidence just does not show that social media is correlated with this kind of harm at all.

00:48:04 Speaker_03
So I think that like, or it's, you know, so I think that that's, I think that it kind of cuts both ways.

00:48:12 Speaker_02
To me, this brings up another topic we wanted to talk about with you. 20 years isn't that long. I'm young. You're young. We all are.

00:48:24 Speaker_01
This is the advantage of being a college dropout founder.

00:48:27 Speaker_03
When you start when you're 19, hopefully we have more than 20 years left.

00:48:30 Speaker_01
And hopefully you have Buffett duration.

00:48:32 Speaker_03
Yeah, hopefully.

00:48:34 Speaker_02
You set up the company. in a, especially at the time, truly unique way, where you can operate the company and take that approach. Do you mean Super Voting Shares? Super Voting Shares is like, you know, the technical aspect.

00:48:52 Speaker_02
I think there are a bunch of technical aspects to it that we're not gonna get into in this conversation, but effectively, you can take that perspective in a way that if you are a CEO, non-founder, you know, without a structure that you've set up, you just can't.

00:49:07 Speaker_02
And I think, you know, in doing all the research for this, a thesis we've developed is that, like, that is just one of the core fundamental advantages that meta has.

00:49:17 Speaker_02
So as you were setting up the company, you know, when you were so young, even when you went public, you were so young, like, why was that so important to you?

00:49:27 Speaker_03
In 2006, Yahoo wanted to buy the company for a billion dollars, and everyone on our management team wanted to sell it, and the board tried to fire me, and basically in the next year, everyone else on the management team left because I hadn't done a good job communicating the long-term vision, because I wasn't thinking about that at the time.

00:49:49 Speaker_03
wasn't thinking in terms of this as a company. I was like, this is a great project. It's awesome. A lot of people like what we're doing. I think this will probably continue for a while. I think it's going to be pretty important in the world.

00:49:59 Speaker_03
But I didn't know how to think in terms of long-term financial plans. Make the case to them why it would be worth more than a billion. Or just like, look, we're doing this for the long term, we're not planning on selling the company.

00:50:13 Speaker_03
So it's like, without having made that case, it was understandable that basically Yahoo comes around, a lot of people, it's like, this is like all their startup dreams come true, you gotta take this offer.

00:50:23 Speaker_03
Because I just wasn't in a place where I had the sophistication to basically articulate a lot of the stuff around where we were going longer term.

00:50:33 Speaker_03
It probably wasn't super confidence-inspiring to them when I was like, hey, I think we should turn this down because we're going to do this.

00:50:41 Speaker_03
So after that, I was like, all right, well, I don't want to get fired from my own company for wanting to build it. So let's try to set up a governance structure that makes it somewhat harder to do that. Learning through suffering.

00:51:03 Speaker_01
Wow. And being very cash-generative very early, such that you had a very real-going concern on your hands, and you just didn't need to cut off your arm and sell it to someone in order to build your business.

00:51:18 Speaker_01
I think this is a fundamentally misunderstood thing about Facebook the startup. It is the prototypical startup.

00:51:28 Speaker_02
You are the iconic startup founder.

00:51:30 Speaker_01
Of this century. And there's a lot of people that want to start a startup for a lot of the glamorous reasons of starting a startup. You hated being a startup and wanted to stop being a startup as fast as possible and be a going concern.

00:51:46 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, I think we're having a lot more fun now. I get to work on all the stuff. It's awesome.

00:51:54 Speaker_01
What is your advice to all these founders who romanticize the idea of starting a company and raising all this money? Obviously, starting a company is not bad.

00:52:03 Speaker_03
I think that there's different schools of thought on how to do it. I think some people think, OK, I want to go start a company, so I'm going to go dive into this idea.

00:52:11 Speaker_03
And I just think that that's a little bit dangerous because there's this issue, which is you have to be able to be nimble and pivot around until you can figure out what works.

00:52:21 Speaker_03
Part of the reason why I didn't think Facebook was going to be the company early on was because when I was in school, I built like 12 different things. right that I were just things that I wanted to exist and like I this is fun.

00:52:31 Speaker_03
Okay, let's build another thing it's okay, this one's fun people still using that like help up keep this one, but I like a bunch of other ideas for stuff I was going to build to so I just like I didn't I didn't like know how to think about what a company was going to be and that is so.

00:52:44 Speaker_03
And there's something about maintaining flexibility that's that's helpful. You know once you hire a bunch of people It's a lot easier when you can just have meetings in your own head about what direction you want to go in.

00:52:57 Speaker_03
And there's a lot less pride and people dug in when you're just like, OK, I'm going to change direction. People haven't invested their ego in like, no, we were going in this direction, and now I must be convinced.

00:53:11 Speaker_03
So I do think that that's a thing, where you want to keep things lean and be able to do that. And that's one of the reasons why we tried to get the company back

00:53:18 Speaker_03
being whatever the leanest version of a large company is that we can be, but I do know there's something to that, where it's like, obviously it's not super fun not having the resources to do what you wanna do, but I think it also is problematic to have more people working on something than you should have for the stage that it's at.

00:53:43 Speaker_03
Because then the people who are working on it don't have the agency to actually make the changes and do the things that they need to, which is less fun. And then you can't attract the best people to go work on those things because it's less fun.

00:53:54 Speaker_03
And so I do think you just have to dial it right.

00:53:57 Speaker_01
You're spending a gajillion dollars on reality labs.

00:54:01 Speaker_02
It's a technical term.

00:54:02 Speaker_01
It's not making that much money. So I'm going to play Mark back to you. It's not appropriate to have all these people and resources working on things for more than the stage warrants.

00:54:12 Speaker_01
I'm being a little facetious here, but I'm curious why you categorize it differently.

00:54:16 Speaker_03
I mean, well, I think some of the stuff, by the time you're at the scale that we're at, is also just about what do you want to do over the next 10 to 20 years? And what do you think are going to be important?

00:54:27 Speaker_03
And we were talking about making your own luck and all that. I think there are some broad strokes that we can have a sense of where things are going. I'm pretty sure glasses and holographic presence and AR is going to be a completely ubiquitous

00:54:42 Speaker_03
product. It's just like everyone had a phone before, replaced it with a smartphone, and then a lot of more people got smartphones.

00:54:48 Speaker_03
If all we get is all the people in the world who already have glasses upgrading to glasses that have AI in them, then this is already going to be one of the most successful products in the history of the world.

00:54:58 Speaker_03
And I think it's going to go a lot further than that. So I know there's that. There is the thing about controlling our own destiny. It's strategically valuable.

00:55:08 Speaker_03
We did this calculation or estimate at some point where it's like, how much money do we lose from our core family of apps to the various taxes that the platforms have to when they tell us we can't run the ad business the way that we think we should be able to, when they tell us we can't ship certain products so that way people use the things less or like them less.

00:55:31 Speaker_03
It's hard to exactly estimate it, but I think we might be twice as profitable if we own the platform or something. So I think from that perspective, that's worth a lot.

00:55:40 Speaker_03
Just from a pure dollars perspective, which is not primarily how I come at this stuff, but even now, I've learned a thing or two since the Yahoo days, and now I at least am able to...

00:55:51 Speaker_03
I might not be able to convince all the investors that we should be investing to the extent that we are in reality labs if I didn't control the company, but at least I can articulate a case for why I am confident that it's going to be good over time.

00:56:04 Speaker_03
For me, it's always been way more about the product experience and what you can enable and build. One of the shifts, and this is a values shift.

00:56:18 Speaker_03
over time is one of the things that some of the early Oculus guys used to say to me, that there's a difference between building good things and awesome things. And good is good. It's helpful. It's useful.

00:56:37 Speaker_03
It's things that people use on a day-to-day basis because it adds something to their lives. But awesome is different. Awesome is uplifting and inspiring and just like leads you to just be way more optimistic about the future.

00:56:55 Speaker_03
And it's just like this uplifting thing about humanity. And so I think a lot of what we've done with social media so far is very good. We've built these products. More than three billion people use them. on a near daily basis.

00:57:13 Speaker_01
It's like 3.3 billion on a daily basis.

00:57:17 Speaker_03
Yeah. And they use it because it is useful in their life. And in all these different ways. I mean, obviously, people vary. People use it for different things. But it's useful. And it helps people. And it helps people stay connected.

00:57:32 Speaker_03
It helps people build businesses. It helps people form communities. It's good. There aren't that many people on a day-to-day basis who get out of bed and are like, fuck yeah, social media.

00:57:45 Speaker_03
So I kind of think for my next stage, for the next stage of the company, the next 15 years, I want us to build more things that are awesome in addition to things that are good. And I think that they both matter.

00:58:05 Speaker_03
To me, this is like a little bit of a kind of the next stage of what I want our company to stand for and be. And so I think a lot of the reality lab stuff that we're doing is going to be in that bucket.

00:58:19 Speaker_03
A lot of the AI stuff that we're doing, I think, is going to be in that bucket. There are a bunch of things in the apps that are going to be in that bucket, too. New apps, too.

00:58:30 Speaker_03
But I don't know, I think that there's just something that's fundamentally pretty good about that. Maybe it's also just where I am in my life.

00:58:38 Speaker_03
I like to think I'm young, I'm a little older, but it's like, I do think that at this point, it's not just a meta thing. Also, in my personal life, a lot of what I personally value is doing things that are inspiring with people who I find inspiring.

00:58:57 Speaker_03
And so there's the personal version of this. It's like I get to work on interesting science problems with Priscilla and my wife and a bunch of awesome people. I get to design shirts with some of the best fashion designers in the world. Statues.

00:59:17 Speaker_03
A sculpture of my wife. Bring back the Roman tradition of designing sculptures of people you love. I'm not at all being facetious. It's really cool. I think Daniel Arsham is a really talented guy.

00:59:30 Speaker_03
And I was like, that's a person who I'd love to work with on something. Let's go find a project. One of my side projects is we have this cattle ranch in Kauai. And I'm trying to see if we can raise the highest quality beef in the world.

00:59:46 Speaker_03
And there's all this stuff. It starts with, it's awesome. We got this steer. Chonk? He's like, he's just the man. He's the man.

00:59:58 Speaker_03
We're having a hard time keeping him on the ranch because every time we put him in a steel enclosure and he sees a female cow, he busts through the steel enclosure.

01:00:09 Speaker_03
But I feel like that's the kind of bull that you want to make the highest quality beef in the world. And we're just trying to do really high-quality, awesome things with awesome people.

01:00:24 Speaker_03
If that's what I get to do for the next 15 or 20 years, then it's going to be a good 15 or 20 years.

01:00:31 Speaker_01
Was there a moment? What changed? When did this become your priority and why? It feels so radical that how could it have possibly been gradual? Or was this just like Mark all the time, and we just couldn't see the real Mark?

01:00:47 Speaker_03
No, I think that there might have been something around the way the company shifted in operations around COVID.

01:00:54 Speaker_03
I mean it's like the COVID, like all these tech companies went remote temporarily and it was an interesting period to just like get some more time, like a step back. I'm a pretty introverted person and I do think it's

01:01:11 Speaker_03
I need to be careful where I get a lot of value and energy and ideas from being around other people, but I also need time with myself. And with COVID, I kind of got that. And it was a time of reflection where I was able to think about this stuff.

01:01:26 Speaker_03
And we were also going through this very difficult political time in the country. And our company was at the center of a lot of those things. So that was a cause of a bunch of reflection. And then I think that a bunch of the things that we'd

01:01:40 Speaker_03
spun up earlier but at smaller scale. The reality lab stuff that we started in 2014, really. The fair stuff around fundamental AI research. 2012, 2013? 2012, 2013, sometime around then.

01:02:00 Speaker_03
These things, they kind of got started and they were growing and it kind of reached this moment which is like, are we going to double down on this and do this or are we going to kind of like do this as a hobby?

01:02:12 Speaker_03
And I was like, no, I think we should do this. This is going to be a really important part of what we do. And we had to make a really important set of decisions. What we knew was going to be really painful

01:02:26 Speaker_03
go double down on those things and build out the infrastructure that we needed to and scale up some of the reality lab stuff I knew that a lot of the investors would hate it. At least in the short term before it's clearly the right thing to do.

01:02:43 Speaker_03
What I didn't know was that at the time I thought they were going to not like it. but I thought it was gonna be okay because I didn't think there was also gonna be a recession at the same time.

01:02:53 Speaker_03
So that, like really, it's like, I mean, look, like you learn who you are through challenges, right?

01:02:58 Speaker_03
It's like we had like a really, you know, it's like, okay, like losing half of your market cap is quaint compared to losing 80% of your market cap or whatever it was, right? It's, you know, so,

01:03:13 Speaker_03
But so, I mean, these are all intentional decisions, right? It's like, I mean, there are a lot of conversations that we had which are like, should we go forward with this? And the answer that I came out with is yes. This is what I believe in.

01:03:26 Speaker_03
I think this is gonna be important for the world. I think it's gonna work over time. We're no stranger to going through painful periods. In some ways, it makes the company better. Let's do it. Yeah, well.

01:03:47 Speaker_01
We're starting to enter, looking at the clock, conclusion lightning round territory. I've had one lurking in the back of my head.

01:03:57 Speaker_01
It makes sense to me that you would rebrand the company something that is not Facebook, given how broad the family of apps was that you've got. Let's imagine you were going to rebrand it today. You've got AI going on. You've got AR going on.

01:04:10 Speaker_01
You've got VR going on. Would you pick the name Meta if you were going to rename the company today?

01:04:17 Speaker_03
I like Meta.

01:04:21 Speaker_01
It's a good name.

01:04:22 Speaker_03
You know, finding good short names, I mean, this actually was a thing that we talked about for a while, because it was pretty clear that

01:04:30 Speaker_03
If Facebook is continuing to grow in importance in the world, which I think a lot of people don't appreciate, and it's kind of mind-boggling at the scale that it's at.

01:04:37 Speaker_03
But the others, I mean, we went through a period where it's like we had Facebook and a handful of small apps.

01:04:42 Speaker_03
And now we have like four apps that have a billion people or more using them, hopefully in the next few years, five, with threads, if that continues scaling.

01:04:55 Speaker_03
this was a conversation we had a bunch rates it doesn't make sense for the name of the company to be one of the apps as the other absence as it's really becoming a family of acts. It was important to me. This was also coinciding with a lot of

01:05:15 Speaker_03
a lot of the challenges that we were having, right? The political brand challenges, different things. And a lot of people were proposing that from the perspective of running away from the Facebook brand, right?

01:05:25 Speaker_03
They were like, oh, well, does the Facebook brand have issues? Do we need a new brand? And I was like, we don't run away from that.

01:05:32 Speaker_03
It might make sense one day to not have Facebook be the lead brand for the company because we do so many different things, but I'm only going to do this when we come up with a brand that is going to be evocative of the future that we're trying to build, because we run towards something, we don't run away from things.

01:05:50 Speaker_03
And when we got to meta, then I was like, all right, we're here. And it was around the time when we were doubling down on the investment and where there was all the controversy.

01:06:00 Speaker_03
And it's like, look, if we're doing this, we're going to lean into this and we're going to do it. So let's do it.

01:06:06 Speaker_01
And if I were to make the case to you, I feel the core competency of meta is you are able to discover products in the world. You have great ideas, you work on them, you discover interesting products.

01:06:20 Speaker_01
And you, Mark, are not someone who wants to define yourself by anything.

01:06:25 Speaker_01
You want to have your hands on a bunch of great controls and maximize your degrees of freedom, see where the world's going, and then have the best freaking spaceship possible to go maneuver your way over there.

01:06:36 Speaker_01
It seems like I would pick a brand that almost doesn't pigeonhole me into a specific future. I might be looking for something that's more like, look, I want to maximize my maneuverability.

01:06:49 Speaker_03
Yeah. I get it. But I don't know. We align around a vision and a mission of what we're trying to do, and we run towards it. That's always been how we've operated.

01:07:05 Speaker_01
And in many ways, doing what I just suggested would kind of be running. It's like, well, we don't believe in it that much. And you're like, no, we believe in it.

01:07:12 Speaker_03
Yeah, no, I mean, we're a company that puts a flag down around what we're doing, and we're going to go do it. It's like, put a wall in front of us, there's going to be a mark-shaped hole in the wall.

01:07:26 Speaker_02
Speaking of lightning rounds and mark-shaped holes, You are accelerating what used to be your annual challenges. I mean, when we were all kids, and we didn't know each other, I mean, I was so inspired. You would do your annual challenges.

01:07:42 Speaker_02
You would post about them. And I was like, wow, that's pretty damn cool. And then we all get a little older, and we all have kids on the stage now. And we all have companies on the stage now. And there's some large, some small. The demands on your time.

01:08:00 Speaker_02
For me, especially, I think lots of people, that's like, that space gets sucked. And you have expanded it. How?

01:08:11 Speaker_03
What do you mean?

01:08:12 Speaker_02
Well, you used to do annual challenges, and I feel like you're now doing weekly challenges. You're designing t-shirts, you're making sculptures, you're raising capital.

01:08:18 Speaker_03
I just like, I'm trying to do inspiring things. I mean, it's, yeah, I don't know. I'm also really competitive.

01:08:31 Speaker_02
Who's your competition for this?

01:08:33 Speaker_03
What do you mean? I was just thinking about other things that I'm doing. I'm like, what have I started doing? I got into all these more extreme sports and fighting and stuff. I don't know.

01:08:44 Speaker_03
We face a lot of competition and a lot of different aspects of what we do. There's the social media competitors. There's the platform competitors. I think Apple is a bigger competitor than people realize.

01:08:57 Speaker_03
They kind of think, hey, they're doing a different type of thing. I don't know, I think over the next 10, 15 years, I think that kind of like battle over, ideological battle over what should the architecture be of the next set of platforms.

01:09:13 Speaker_03
Are they gonna be the closed, integrated model that Apple has always done? Which, again, I mean like, there's multiple, there are multiple good ways to build things, right? So, I think if you look at the different generations of computing,

01:09:31 Speaker_03
PCs, mobile, they've all had sort of a closed integrated version and an open version. And the thing that I think there's just a ton of recency bias around is because iPhone basically won.

01:09:44 Speaker_03
I know that there are more Android phones out there, but I mean, but iPhone is sort of like the intellectual leader and by far like has all the rights.

01:09:52 Speaker_02
Let's take it as it can see. Yeah.

01:09:54 Speaker_03
I think that there's the recency bias and probably like almost everyone here has an iPhone. And I think that because of the recency bias, there's sort of this view that's like, oh no, this is just the superior way to do things.

01:10:06 Speaker_03
But I don't actually think that's a given. In the PC era, Windows with the open ecosystem was the leader.

01:10:13 Speaker_03
And part of my goal for the next 10, 15 years, the next generation of platforms, is to build the next generation of open platforms and have the open platforms win. And I think that that's going to lead to a much more vibrant tech industry.

01:10:29 Speaker_03
Now, there are advantages of doing a closed and integrated model. I think Apple will have a place, for sure. I expect them to be our primary competitor. And I think it will not be... just a product competition.

01:10:43 Speaker_03
I think it's, in some ways, very deeply values-driven and ideological competition around what the future of the tech industry should be and how open these platforms, whether it's things like Lama and AI or the glasses or different things, should be for developers, like an individual, someone getting started in their dorm room like me, to not have to ask for permission to go build the next set of awesome things.

01:11:09 Speaker_01
I've got a closing question.

01:11:12 Speaker_02
Thank you.

01:11:16 Speaker_01
So we have a lot of builders in the audience tonight, a lot of founders. We're in probably the most interesting technology environments since the early mobile days in terms of opportunity.

01:11:30 Speaker_01
It's been 20 years, so you might have to go back a little bit, but what advice do you have for founders today on something that's different than trying to pattern match Mark Zuckerberg from 2004, given we live in a different world today?

01:11:43 Speaker_03
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, just do something that you care about. And I mean, if you're trying to run our strategy, try to learn as quickly as you can. But I mean, if there's like, I think part of what I'm trying to say is,

01:11:59 Speaker_03
I think there are different ways to build stuff. It's like our way worked for me and our team. Different things have clearly worked for other companies. I don't know.

01:12:14 Speaker_03
One day my daughter, we took her to a Taylor Swift concert and she was like, you know, Dad, I kinda wanna be like Taylor Swift when I grow up. Hell yeah. I was like, but you can't, that's not available to you.

01:12:31 Speaker_03
I was like, but, and she thought about it, and she's like, all right. When I grow up, I want people to want to be like August Chan Zuckerberg. And I was like, hell yeah. Hell yeah. So I think that that's, yeah, I don't know.

01:12:49 Speaker_03
I think it's like, look, learn from other people's successes and failures, but do your own thing.

01:12:57 Speaker_02
Love that. Love that. Well. That is the perfect place to leave things.

01:13:06 Speaker_01
We made you something that you already have a very amazing, well-designed shirt. I hope you have room in your life for more than one.

01:13:15 Speaker_03
I do. I used to only wear one type of shirt. Now I've moved on.

01:13:23 Speaker_01
So David and I made you a custom one-of-one shirt that represents tonight.

01:13:29 Speaker_03
Thank you.

01:13:34 Speaker_01
It is size Zuck. So no one else can, you know, it can never be made again. And we've got these coordinates on the back. The first one. GPS coordinates. GPS coordinates.

01:13:45 Speaker_01
The first one represents Kirkland House, where he wrote the first line of code for Facebook. And the second one is the Chase Center. Awesome. So thank you for joining us here tonight. Thank you for joining us. Wow. What a night. Absolutely crazy.

01:14:00 Speaker_01
I mean, Mark has done many interviews this year, both with other podcasts and in traditional press, but that felt different.

01:14:08 Speaker_01
If for no other reason than it happened live in front of a 6,000 person audience in an arena, but I wasn't expecting it to feel that different.

01:14:15 Speaker_02
Yeah. I mean, it was, I think the wildest experience of my life being up there. I don't even know what else could compare. Pretty insane.

01:14:25 Speaker_01
Well, listeners, as you may have noticed, thanks to our sponsors, this conversation was uninterrupted. And we do want to reflect a little bit and share some of our thoughts and how we're feeling looking back on this conversation with you.

01:14:39 Speaker_01
But first, we do want to share a word on Statsig and Crusoe. So Statzig.

01:14:45 Speaker_02
So Mark's most famous catchphrase is probably move fast and break things. But like we talked about with him, despite instilling this in Facebook's engineering culture, Facebook doesn't actually break very often.

01:14:57 Speaker_01
How? Certainly not anymore. And really relative to its peers, not even throughout its past. Yeah. Facebook invested hundreds of thousands of engineering hours in a set of internal tools.

01:15:09 Speaker_01
These tools let any engineer set up new metrics, ship new features, and measure performance in real time.

01:15:15 Speaker_01
That means anyone could just ship a new feature, but they always had metrics to use as guardrails, and they could always roll back a feature if anything broke.

01:15:24 Speaker_02
Oh man, there are legendary stories of engineers shipping features like in their first week at bootcamp as interns or new hires at Facebook and meta over the years.

01:15:34 Speaker_02
And you might wish that you could do the same on your team and build products like they build products at Facebook. Ship fast, make database decisions, iterate rapidly, but you need the right tools.

01:15:44 Speaker_01
So you're stuck, right? Well, enter StatSig.

01:15:48 Speaker_01
StatSig has built the world's first product acceleration platform, combining tools like feature flags, product analytics, experimentation, and observability all in one place, helping you move faster and make smarter decisions.

01:16:00 Speaker_02
Even better, Statsig was literally founded by an ex-meta team who wanted to help everyone build like the best and bring these same tools to the market.

01:16:09 Speaker_02
Today, many of the world's leading tech companies rely on Statsig, including OpenAI, Microsoft, Notion, Anthropic, Figma, plus thousands of early-stage startups.

01:16:18 Speaker_01
David, every time we work with Statsig, this list gets more and more impressive. Like now it is purely, you know, A-list companies.

01:16:25 Speaker_02
It's awesome. So if you're ready to accelerate your growth and democratize product building at your company, go to statsig.com slash acquired. And when you get in touch, just tell them that Ben and David sent you. Thanks, Statsig. And now for Crusoe.

01:16:37 Speaker_02
Crusoe is a climate aligned cloud platform built specifically for AI workloads and powered by clean energy.

01:16:44 Speaker_02
They build and operate GPU data centers powered by low cost stranded energy that otherwise goes to waste or worse gets emitted as greenhouse gases.

01:16:52 Speaker_01
It's crazy. When Acquired first started working with Crusoe, this was a cool idea.

01:16:56 Speaker_01
Now they're like one of the most important companies in the world with an AI cloud that's superior to the hyperscalers and a whole bunch of the largest companies in the world trusting their AI infrastructure to them.

01:17:07 Speaker_02
Yeah, it's easy to think about AI as like, oh, that's a bunch of PhDs at Meta or OpenAI or Anthropic or whatever, you know, tinkering with model weights in their office and hitting compute.

01:17:16 Speaker_02
But there's this whole other industrial side of AI that's everything that happens after you press go on the model training. And that's energy, cooling, construction, all the physical infrastructure behind AI.

01:17:28 Speaker_01
And Crusoe is powering that by producing or repurposing huge amounts of power.

01:17:32 Speaker_01
We are talking gigawatts in their development pipeline, which is nuclear reactor amounts of power for less cost than other providers and with zero, or in some cases, actually negative emissions. It's super important.

01:17:44 Speaker_01
If you listen to Zuck and others talk about what the bottleneck to AI progress is, it's actually not compute, but energy. And Crusoe is solving that problem.

01:17:53 Speaker_02
It's just an awesome company. We are super proud to work with them and to be investors in the company.

01:17:59 Speaker_02
You can work with Crusoe either through their managed AI cloud, which is great for startups and enterprises who want to complete end to end platform for AI or directly as a data center customer, which several of the largest companies in the world are now doing.

01:18:12 Speaker_02
So just going over to Crusoe.ai slash acquired that's C-R-U-S-O-E.ai slash acquired, or click the link in the show notes and tell them that Ben and David sent you.

01:18:24 Speaker_01
Okay, so David, reflections on this conversation. The biggest thing that I kept thinking going into the night, as we're talking with Mark, as we're talking with his team, you know, people kept saying, we don't really do this.

01:18:37 Speaker_01
Mark doesn't really do this. And I kept thinking, yeah, he kind of does, because he's done all these podcasts this year. He does Facebook MetaConnect, like he's done big events before, of course.

01:18:46 Speaker_01
Right, and he does a good number of in-person press interviews, too. It's not like he doesn't talk to the traditional press, even though that has kind of become a narrative. It's not really true.

01:18:55 Speaker_01
However, Mark has not done an external, several-thousand-person, live thing like this. This is a very unusual format and kind of an uncomfortable one, even for you and I. Like, we're so used to stopping, starting, being thoughtful in our answers.

01:19:11 Speaker_01
And like, this is a show. You're performing. There are no breaks. There's no retakes.

01:19:15 Speaker_02
Yeah.

01:19:16 Speaker_01
Right. But Mark and like all the meta execs really embraced it. A bunch of the executive team came, like they took off this whole day and actually some stuff we did the night before, too.

01:19:26 Speaker_02
A bunch of the board members were there. A lot of people important to Mark were there.

01:19:29 Speaker_01
His family came.

01:19:31 Speaker_02
They made it an event.

01:19:32 Speaker_01
Right. I thought this was a big deal for us. I was kind of shocked to the degree that Mark also thought it was a big deal for him.

01:19:39 Speaker_02
Which is super cool. Totally agree.

01:19:40 Speaker_01
That's one. I was also surprised and delighted that he was willing to dive into history with us.

01:19:47 Speaker_02
Yes, we totally did not expect that. He's so, like, usually so maniacally focused on the future. And in our conversations to prep with him before the event, he was like, I think of you guys as a history podcast, you know. Let's talk about the future."

01:20:02 Speaker_02
I'm like, okay, okay, but we want to ground it in history. And he showed up and was totally ready to go back. And I think that made the talking about the present and the future even better.

01:20:10 Speaker_01
Totally, because you could create these through lines.

01:20:12 Speaker_01
I mean, as funny as your interjection on, let's go back to the IPO moment was, it opened up the door to have, like, these comparative moments to, is what Meta doing today, is that similar to something that you've done over and over?

01:20:25 Speaker_01
Should we be watching for a pattern here? Or are you very different today than you were historically? The way that he was talking about that stuff on stage felt very authentic. And I just haven't heard him speak in that way before, at least publicly.

01:20:41 Speaker_02
I think it was also a great way to let us all get a window into his psyche, which kind of brings us to another point, which is like, he is still in it. Oh, what other founders of companies like that? I mean, there's Jensen. Who else?

01:20:58 Speaker_02
You know, it's the two of them.

01:20:59 Speaker_01
Yeah, I think the casual observer to Meadow might observe like, you know, Mark's been running it for 20 years and most of the time these founders kind of like go and do something else.

01:21:08 Speaker_01
They become executive chairman or they like stepped into a board role or they own 4% of the companies. There's some pattern there. And for Mark, I think it was plain as day on stage. he is more in it than ever.

01:21:21 Speaker_01
And I don't think he thinks he's like halfway through his journey. Like, I don't think he's 20 years in at 40. I'll be done. I don't get that sense either. I think meta is his vehicle by which he wants to live his entire life.

01:21:36 Speaker_01
And he wants to make things with this group of people that he wants to make period. And that is kind of the product strategy.

01:21:43 Speaker_02
I got chills when he said the 20 year mistake. And then I got Even more chills when he said, but 20 years actually isn't that long.

01:21:54 Speaker_01
Yeah, it's a pretty illustrative comment.

01:21:56 Speaker_02
Totally.

01:21:57 Speaker_01
I was appreciative that he engaged with us on the be critical of the company, because honestly, I was asking that as research for when we inevitably do our meta episode.

01:22:06 Speaker_01
I think he gave us a regret, not a criticism, but we were live on stage in front of 6000 people. And it's it's not really the right format for that.

01:22:14 Speaker_02
Yeah, totally.

01:22:15 Speaker_01
That said, obviously, a very interesting answer.

01:22:17 Speaker_02
I think related though back to the he's still in it, in some sense, reality labs you could look at like his blue origin.

01:22:25 Speaker_01
A hundred percent.

01:22:27 Speaker_02
It's just within meta.

01:22:29 Speaker_01
I'm glad you caught this too. Other big tech CEO founders. have their moment running the company, they take a board role, they go do another thing. And oftentimes it's big and important for the world and capital intensive.

01:22:44 Speaker_01
And Mark is doing that, but inside meta with reality labs. I think it'll be super fascinating 20 to 50 years from now to reflect back and say, what were the unintended or perhaps intended outcomes of commingling

01:22:57 Speaker_01
multiple huge swings under one corporate umbrella versus having people who are either CEO of multiple companies concurrently or, you know, step down from one to run the other.

01:23:06 Speaker_01
For Mark, I kind of feel like, again, meta is his vehicle for executing the things that he thinks are awesome products. And of course, it's not just awesome products, but like things that could let him have more control over his universe.

01:23:22 Speaker_01
He's clearly a guy who values

01:23:25 Speaker_01
Having a lot of degrees of freedom and doesn't like being boxed in I loved your turn-based strategy game Oh get more turns learn more on each turn like oh, man Starcraft pro player 101 there yes But it'll be interesting to see the the knock-on effects of having reality labs in the meta organization versus as a new venture

01:23:45 Speaker_02
Totally.

01:23:46 Speaker_02
All of that brings me to, frankly, just my biggest overwhelming takeaway from the whole experience, which is, Ben, you've developed a really great research interview question that you use on all the sources that we talk to now, which is, you ask, what is the one thing that is most misunderstood about this company, this organization, et cetera?

01:24:09 Speaker_02
And everybody at Metta, for years, always would say Mark. And I never totally got it until this evening. He's both a singular individual himself, but it's not just that.

01:24:23 Speaker_02
It's that a true superpower of the company is that it is architected from top to bottom, legally, financially, organizationally.

01:24:34 Speaker_01
Culturally.

01:24:35 Speaker_02
Culturally, to reflect and amplify his immense strengths.

01:24:42 Speaker_01
which I think is probably true of like Apple, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Microsoft, NVIDIA, Jensen. Yes.

01:24:51 Speaker_01
But we are right up close to the ways in which meta is a sort of an amplifier, almost like it's a way for you to take the gain on Mark's output and turn it up, you know, 10,000x.

01:25:04 Speaker_02
Yes. And I think what was so striking about it to me versus you're absolutely right, all those other companies, It is generally accepted in the public narrative about Apple under Steve Jobs, about Nvidia under Jensen, that that is the case.

01:25:17 Speaker_02
I don't think it is about Meta and Mark. I don't think people understand that. I didn't understand that until this experience.

01:25:23 Speaker_01
Are you saying Meta is still very much a Mark Zuckerberg production? I'll see myself out.

01:25:30 Speaker_02
Well put. There we go.

01:25:32 Speaker_01
Well, listeners, thank you so much for joining us on this journey. Come talk about it with us in the Slack. Acquired.fm slash Slack. Would love to hear all of your thoughts as well. Join our email list. Acquired.fm slash email.

01:25:45 Speaker_01
That will let you basically know every single time a new episode drops or when we are doing something like Chase Center again to be the first to know about that. God, if we ever do something like that again.

01:25:56 Speaker_01
We've got a merch store, check it out on acquired.fm. We've got ACQ2, our second show where we are always interviewing earlier stage companies than Metta, but where we think there are great, insightful conversations with founders and CEOs.

01:26:10 Speaker_01
And David, I know you've got some thank yous.

01:26:13 Speaker_02
One last thing, final thank yous. Thank you to Mark. Thank you to basically the entire Metta executive team who helped with the evening. Thank you to Hermes for dressing us, which was my favorite Easter egg of the night.

01:26:25 Speaker_01
Yes, so fun. Thank you to Jamie Dimon, JPMorgan Chase, and JPMorgan Payments for making it all possible. It was truly a dream come true, and that is because of our incredible partnership.

01:26:35 Speaker_02
Indeed it was. Well, listeners, we'll see you next time.

01:26:40 Speaker_01
Yes, in a couple of weeks with the full show. We are pumped to drop it. We'll see you next time.

01:26:45 Speaker_04
Who got the truth? Is it you? Is it you? Is it you? Who got the truth now?