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Episode: The Fourth House in Astrology

Author: Chris Brennan
Duration: 08:41:34

Episode Shownotes

In episode 467 astrologers Chris Brennan and Nick Dagan Best do a deep dive into the meaning of the 4th house in astrology, and examine the birth charts of more than 50 notable figures who have the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th in order to demonstrate what the

house means. The fourth house is traditionally said to signify topics such as: home, parents, family, private life, secrets, the past, death, and matters after death. We open the episode by talking about the significations of the fourth house in detail, and discussing the way that it was conceptualized both in ancient astrology and in more recent times. Afterwards the rest of the episode is focused on looking at examples of people who have the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house, and these have been arranged into groups that concentrate on specific significations associated with the 4th house. After that we have some brief concluding remarks before wrapping up. Followup Episode on the Ruler of the 4th House This is the first episode in a two part series on the 4th house in astrology, and part 2 will cover the ruler of the 4th house when it is placed in each of the 12 houses.

Part 2 on the ruler of the 4th house has already been recorded, and get early access to it now through our page on Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/115743332 Research Notes PDF Patrons of the podcast get access to a PDF that contains our research notes and outline for this episode.

This PDF includes a handy episode guide plus bonus content not featured in the episode.

Become a patron of the podcast through our page on Patreon to access this:

https://www.patreon.com/astrologypodcast Nick's Website NickDaganBestastrologer.com Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction 00:01:45 Structure of this episode 00:03:42 Bonus content 00:07:43 Significations of the 4th house 00:38:45 Preliminary remarks to chart examples 00:53:40 Ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house 00:54:11 Parents 03:11:00 Home and living situation 04:10:25 Privacy, secrecy, and hidden things 05:25:50 Inner world & contemplation 06:04:49 The past, history, and ancestry 06:24:38 Death, endings, posthumous matters 08:32:23 Concluding remarks 08:39:57 Credits

Watch the Video Version of This Episode Watch the video version of this episode on the fourth house on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEx3PaQSwfk

Transcript A full transcript of this episode is available: Episode 467 transcript Listen to the Audio Version of This Episode Listen to the audio version of this episode or download it as an MP3:

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_01
Hey, my name is Chris Brennan, and you're listening to The Astrology Podcast.

00:00:03 Speaker_01
In this episode, joining me is astrologer Nick Dagan-Best, and we're going to be doing a deep dive into the meaning of the fourth house in astrology, especially focusing on the ruler of the Ascendant and going through at least 50 example charts in this first section, showing different notable figures and different celebrity charts and how the fourth house has worked out in their life.

00:00:25 Speaker_01
their life in different ways based on having the ruler of the Ascendant placed in that sector of the chart. So, hey Nick, thanks for joining me. Hey Chris, thanks for having me back. Yeah, so we were back.

00:00:37 Speaker_01
You and I did the first installment of this series, which was the first house. And then Lisa and I have done the second house and third house. And then Lisa, ironically, is off dealing with some fourth house stuff right now with her parents.

00:00:49 Speaker_01
So she couldn't do the full episode today, but she's going to make a brief appearance later when we do a brief subsection at one point on the Ruler of the Ascendant.

00:00:58 Speaker_01
But you and I have been deeply collaborating on this research over the past few weeks and just finding tons of really great example charts.

00:01:07 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's right. As always, working on these projects with you is always a huge learning experience. No matter how much you think you know about astrology, there's always just that much more to learn and absorb.

00:01:22 Speaker_01
Yeah, and that's part of why I like doing these, just because you get to teach people and show them what you know, but there's also things you learn in the process. Especially finding new examples is always really exciting.

00:01:34 Speaker_01
That demonstrates a portion of the technique or a portion of what that house means that you see in client charts, but to have it show up in a celebrity chart that's very publicly documented is always really cool.

00:01:46 Speaker_01
Yeah, so we've got 50 charts or 53 charts to go through just in the ruler of the Ascendant section. So let me put up a little diagram to explain to people what this is going to look like. So for this series,

00:02:01 Speaker_01
We're going to start in the first part by talking about the significations of the fourth house for probably about 30 minutes or so, and then we're going to jump into, in part two, the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house, and we're going to go through about 50 chart examples of different celebrities that have that placement and talk about their life and their biography and different ways that that's manifested in very tangible ways in their lives.

00:02:28 Speaker_01
So then in part three, we're going to go through the ruler of the fourth house in all 12 houses, and then after that, we're going to wrap up with part four conclusions.

00:02:38 Speaker_01
So today we're recording this on Friday, October 25th, 2024, starting at 3.15 p.m. right now in Denver, Colorado. We've got a nice electional chart. We're going to try to

00:02:51 Speaker_01
focus on just recording the Ruler of the Ascendant section today, and then we'll probably record the Rulers of the Houses section probably in another follow-up recording, although we'll see how far we get today.

00:03:02 Speaker_01
And then I'm not sure yet if I'm going to release these as standalone portions or as one big episode like I have been so far. I think it depends on how long we go today with these 50 charts. I've decided for this episode not to do

00:03:16 Speaker_01
planets in the fourth house like I have in the past couple of entries, just because I feel like that's the point where it gets really, really long.

00:03:24 Speaker_01
And instead, what I've done is I've folded some of the planets in the house into some of the other sections so that we'll still get a taste of what that means.

00:03:34 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's a better strategy probably.

00:03:36 Speaker_01
Yeah. All right. And then after that, we'll wrap up with some conclusions. Let's see, other preliminary stuff that I wanted to mention before we get started.

00:03:48 Speaker_01
This is going to be a big deep dive episode, obviously, where we're going to get into a lot of stuff and we're going to go as far in our understanding with the fourth house as we can.

00:03:58 Speaker_01
There's a lot of content that I'm putting out here for free in this episode, but there's also going to be some bonus content for patrons.

00:04:06 Speaker_01
So this work and the reason I'm able to put this episode, this whole workshop essentially on The Fourth House out there for free is because this work is being funded by patrons.

00:04:17 Speaker_01
And so in exchange for that, they get access to some bonus content for this episode, including early access to this episode, so they'll get to watch it before anybody else does in the public.

00:04:29 Speaker_01
There's also a research notes booklet that is a downloadable PDF that contains all of our notes for this episode that I'm also sending out to patrons as soon as this episode is published.

00:04:41 Speaker_01
That's a really helpful guide because it gives you an overview and an outline of everything we talk about, including some bonus information that we're not going to get into in this episode just for time constraints because we always find more research than we can actually include in the episode regardless of how long it is.

00:04:59 Speaker_01
Yeah, because you're working on the outline with me.

00:05:05 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, I didn't realize you were sharing the outline, but that's a great idea because there's always a lot more information and detail in our notes that we never get to all of it during a taping, no matter how long you go.

00:05:20 Speaker_03
And I also just wanted to point out while you're on this slide. The episodes we've been doing together for the Secret Astrology Podcast have been really, really strong. Obviously, your patrons know this already. They're familiar with it.

00:05:35 Speaker_03
But for people who aren't patrons, they're really missing out on a really strong episode per month. Last month, we just did the overflow from the third house, but it's not always directly related to one of the episodes you do.

00:05:49 Speaker_03
Yeah, they're really, really strong episodes for being these exclusive patron only things. They're really substantial. So I encourage people to sign up if they're not.

00:06:02 Speaker_01
Yeah, so that's also one of the benefits of becoming a patron is I have a private podcast series called The Secret Astrology Podcast. Last month, we released a bonus episode that was two hours of extra charts.

00:06:16 Speaker_01
I think it was about 25 or 30 extra charts that weren't included in the previous, the public third house episode that we got into in that episode.

00:06:24 Speaker_01
And it was some really good ones, including some that just seemed a little too spicy for the public episode, and that's why I preserved them just for patrons.

00:06:32 Speaker_01
Additionally, patrons have the opportunity to attend live chart reading sessions with me, where for each episode in this series, I've been going through.

00:06:41 Speaker_01
And each time I do an episode like this, where we mainly focus on celebrity or notable individual charts, I'll also do a separate episode where I sit down and interview

00:06:51 Speaker_01
patrons of The Astrology Podcast directly through Zoom and talk about, for example, their fourth house. And I already recorded that episode in preparation as I was researching this one, and it'll be released afterwards.

00:07:03 Speaker_01
But I've still got a bunch of other episodes in this series as I go through the fifth house and sixth house and so on and so forth.

00:07:10 Speaker_01
I'm going to continue interviewing patrons, and that's one of the benefits of becoming one, is getting to sometimes get interviewed by me to talk about your chart or to attend those live recordings to see and have those discussions in the live chat with people as we're doing them.

00:07:26 Speaker_01
So basically, if you want to support this work, if you're really getting a lot out of this series, and you want to get access to bonus content at the same time that makes it even better than this episode already will be, then go to patreon.com slash astrology podcast in order to sign up.

00:07:43 Speaker_01
All right, so let's get into the meaning of the 4th house. All right, so we're going to talk about the significations of the 4th house.

00:07:55 Speaker_01
From a chart standpoint, the 4th house itself is in whole sign houses, it's the 4th sign relative to the rising sign.

00:08:06 Speaker_01
So once you establish what sign your Ascendant is located in, you just count four signs downwards, and that will be the 4th whole sign house.

00:08:16 Speaker_01
In quadrant houses, the fourth house is the sector of the chart that follows just after the degree of the IC, and that's essentially what the fourth house is. It's the signs that are rising up towards the degree of the IC in the chart.

00:08:34 Speaker_01
So the 4th house is down at the bottom of the chart, and it acts essentially as the foundation of the chart as a result of that. In ancient astrology, the 4th house is called the subterranean place, or it's called the place that is under the Earth.

00:08:51 Speaker_01
The reason for this is because the 4th house is the part of the chart that is directly under our feet in essentially the most hidden part of the chart and the most hidden part of the cosmos.

00:09:05 Speaker_01
We're looking at a diagram right now that shows the Ascendant is over on the left side by the 1st house, the Descendant is over on the far right side by the 7th house,

00:09:16 Speaker_01
Everything in the bottom half of the chart is under the Earth from our vantage point, whereas everything in the top half of the chart is in the sky, essentially above our head and visible.

00:09:28 Speaker_01
The fourth house, though, is the lowest part of the chart, and it's functionally, from an astronomical standpoint, you can imagine the fourth house just by imagining everything that's directly beneath your feet and directly below you.

00:09:41 Speaker_01
So as a result of that, it both has these connotations of having to do with the earth, but also having to do with things that are secret or hidden.

00:09:50 Speaker_01
But most importantly, the primary significations of the fourth house are that it pertains to your home and living situation and your parents or the people who raised you.

00:10:05 Speaker_01
but also, by extension, it can also relate to your private life since the fourth house

00:10:12 Speaker_01
Functionally, the 4th house is opposite to the 10th house, which is the most visible part of the chart, and therefore represents your public life in the 10th house.

00:10:24 Speaker_01
The opposite to that is the 4th house, which is the most hidden part of the chart, and therefore it represents your private life as well as your home and your foundations and your roots.

00:10:35 Speaker_01
So that's one of the most basic and fundamental distinctions for me that all of the houses are based on is that the first house is self, the seventh house is other, the 10th house is your public life, and the fourth house is your private life.

00:10:51 Speaker_01
And as long as you keep that in mind, you can pretty much figure out most of the significations of the houses just based on that. Yep, absolutely. All right, other basic things. The 4th house is an angular house.

00:11:06 Speaker_01
It's one of the four angular houses, which makes it more prominent and active in a person's life, but it's said to be the least active of the four angular houses, which are usually ranked 1st house, 10th house, 7th house, and then 4th house last.

00:11:23 Speaker_01
The fourth house is the middle pivot point of the angular triad that has to do with the three houses at the bottom of the chart. The sequence is third house, fourth house, fifth house.

00:11:39 Speaker_01
One of the things we talked about in the third house episode is how the fourth house represents your parents.

00:11:45 Speaker_01
And then the 5th house, which follows after that, represents children, which is like the continuation of your family lineage, whereas the 3rd house represents your extended family because the 3rd house extends away from the 4th house.

00:12:00 Speaker_01
We can kind of see how the fourth house acts as the anchor and the pivot because it represents your parents and your family, but that this entire sequence of three houses is really connected very closely to your immediate family and especially to blood relatives, essentially.

00:12:17 Speaker_01
Yeah.

00:12:21 Speaker_03
All right. Go ahead. Yeah.

00:12:25 Speaker_03
No, maybe you're about to get to this, but in case you're not, I mean, the other sort of way to think about the fourth house is it's in a triplicity with the 12th and the 8th, which probably accounts for the reason why it's sort of the least of the angles.

00:12:41 Speaker_03
But yeah, despite being a pivot, it's got this strong trigon relationship to two houses that tend to be you know, neither of which see the ascendant and tend to generally be viewed as negative spaces insofar as houses are concerned.

00:12:58 Speaker_01
Yeah, the 8th and the 12th are for sure two of the most difficult houses because they don't aspect the rising sign, whereas that's one of the things that makes the 4th one of the good houses or a more positive house is that it actually has a configuration with the rising sign.

00:13:15 Speaker_01
And since the rising sign represents you, the native or the individual owner of the birth chart,

00:13:22 Speaker_01
Any house that is configured or has a major aspect with the rising sign is thought to be supportive of your life, and the fourth house is a major one that is for the most part supportive, although we'll get into some ways in which it does have some challenging significations associated with it as well.

00:13:40 Speaker_03
Yeah, because of its connection to the 8th and 12th, I tend to think of the fourth house being a place where we incorporate those areas of life, where they impact us. The 8th and 12th houses, wherever we've been sort of lost or hurt or

00:14:00 Speaker_03
you know, whatever ways we've suffered or caused others to suffer, you know, tends to come out through eighth and twelfth house matters.

00:14:09 Speaker_03
And the fourth house is sort of the angle through which we process all that, you know, childhood trauma, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

00:14:19 Speaker_01
Yeah, we'll get into more of that here in a bit. Yeah, for sure. All right, so let's expand and talk about our primary significations for the fourth house.

00:14:32 Speaker_01
The first major subsection essentially is parents, that the fourth house traditionally has always been the house that represents your parents.

00:14:43 Speaker_01
In ancient Hellenistic astrology, they didn't actually differentiate between one parent or the other, which is something that developed in later traditions, partially actually potentially as a result of a mistranslation, although we can talk about that more later.

00:14:58 Speaker_01
But in ancient astrology, they assigned both parents to the fourth house. So this means that the fourth house can signify your father, the fourth house can signify your mother, but also more broadly, symbolically, it represents those who raised you.

00:15:13 Speaker_01
So for those who are not necessarily raised by their biological father or their biological mother, it just can represent your caretaker or those who raised you. Does that make sense? Oh yeah, absolutely. All right.

00:15:29 Speaker_01
So more broadly, the fourth house also represents the general topic of family and the role that family plays in your life.

00:15:38 Speaker_01
By extension, the fourth house can also represent some things having to do with the past and your family history, which can include things related to your ancestry.

00:15:48 Speaker_01
But also topics of lineage can sometimes come up when it comes to the fourth house, which is like your family lineage going back in time and where you're at now in the present relative to that.

00:16:03 Speaker_01
Other topics can be family legacies, your inheritance, heritage, tradition, and also your ethnic origins can sometimes come up with respect to the fourth house as well, especially if it's a major factor in your chart.

00:16:22 Speaker_01
It can sometimes bring that into play as part of your family origins and heritage. So one open question about the fourth house is grandparents. There's a little uncertainty about where to assign grandparents in the chart.

00:16:36 Speaker_01
In the last episode, we talked about that there's some symbolic reasons why the third house could relate to grandparents, and it does sometimes seem to show up that way in certain people's charts.

00:16:48 Speaker_01
because the 3rd house in terms of the angular triads comes before the 4th house.

00:16:56 Speaker_01
So symbolically, you almost get this nice sequence where it's like 3rd house would be grandparents, 4th house would be parents, and then 5th house is your own children, which is like the continuation of your family lineage.

00:17:07 Speaker_01
So there's a nice little continuum there. But things are not always super clean in astrology, and sometimes grandparents do seem to show up in the fourth house.

00:17:18 Speaker_01
I've noticed especially when, in some instances, the grandparents play a primary role in raising the native, then sometimes they take on that role of the fourth house as a result of being those who raised you.

00:17:31 Speaker_03
That's right. I definitely I've seen, I think you've, you've hit the nail on the head.

00:17:37 Speaker_03
For my part, I tend to see my grandparents being a fourth house matter, precisely because I was every weekend we spent with my mother's parents and they were sort of other parents to me they weren't, you know, merely people that I saw on the holidays or what have you.

00:17:55 Speaker_03
But certainly in other charts, yeah, I think it is contextual. I think it does come down to what role the grandparents played in the family. Sometimes they really are just extended family, and then you do find them in the third house.

00:18:07 Speaker_03
So it's a case-by-case basis, which doesn't make our job any easier, but the nuances are accounted for.

00:18:15 Speaker_01
Right.

00:18:15 Speaker_01
Because the third house is peripheral and it's extended family, but because it's outside of in the same way that the third house represents your neighborhood or the things that are around or peripheral to your home, your actual house, maybe that's the connection there with the third house where it's always said to represent siblings, but also extended relatives like aunts and uncles and cousins and stuff like that, which are kind of like

00:18:43 Speaker_01
peripheral family members for many people unless you have important chart placements there and they're very important and close to you in your life.

00:18:51 Speaker_01
But maybe that's the distinction if your grandparents are more peripheral in your life that they might show up there more. This is something that astrologers will continue to debate, and maybe it's open to discussion.

00:19:02 Speaker_01
But yeah, I wanted to raise that discussion without coming to too firm of conclusions.

00:19:09 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think that logic really holds, especially when you consider, I know we'll get around to this other signification of the fourth house in a second.

00:19:16 Speaker_03
But insofar as the fourth house signifies the home, the third house can very often signify, by extension, the neighborhood. But in some cases, the neighborhood also finds its way into the fourth house.

00:19:34 Speaker_03
If it's a very sort of, again, it comes down to context. more central to the person's existence than there's kind of an extension between the third and fourth house when it comes to neighborhood. So yeah, you see these nuances often.

00:19:53 Speaker_03
And I think rather than fret over how they make our system less easily definable, just sort of accept the fact that different circumstances can move certain things around this way.

00:20:08 Speaker_01
Yeah. One of the things that we're going to come up against later in one of the areas when we talk about significations of the 4th house is how the 4th house sometimes has overlapping significations with other houses.

00:20:19 Speaker_01
Sometimes there's attempts in the tradition to try to smooth that out and make it so there's just one house that signifies

00:20:26 Speaker_01
that topic, but sometimes there can be multiple houses that represent either the same topic or different variations of that topic in different ways. We'll return to that here shortly.

00:20:38 Speaker_01
The other major topic besides parents and family that the fourth house is associated with is your home.

00:20:46 Speaker_01
especially your personal home and your living situation, that's where it shows up in your chart in the fourth house, and that's one of the most primary and important meanings of this house of the chart.

00:21:00 Speaker_01
By extension, it can also indicate things like domestic affairs,

00:21:05 Speaker_01
It represents your foundation as well as your roots, so you can kind of imagine the chart as if it was a tree, and the bottom of the chart, the fourth house, would be where the roots lie of the tree, and then the tree sort of builds up through the middle of the chart, and then eventually you have the leaves and the branches up top at the 10th house, the most visible part.

00:21:30 Speaker_01
CB So your roots, more broadly, it can also represent where you come from. So this can be like the town you come from, the city, the state, or even the country that you come from can be represented by the fourth house.

00:21:47 Speaker_01
And sometimes you get these extensions of like people calling their home country the fatherland or the motherland.

00:21:55 Speaker_01
And so you get this interesting blend there with the fourth house between the home and living situation and the idea of parents or family. More broadly, the fourth house can also represent real estate.

00:22:08 Speaker_01
It can represent houses very tangibly, as well as buildings very tangibly, and sometimes by extension, things like architecture or other things that have to do with buildings. Yeah. Yeah. So those are primary significations of the fourth house.

00:22:26 Speaker_03
I would propose infrastructure, buildings insofar as... Yeah, it's the base of everything, very much in the way the fourth house is a base for a human being. Yeah.

00:22:37 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah. All right, another major topic as I've talked about with the 4th house is it has to do with the most private area of the chart because it's opposite to the 10th house is the public life.

00:22:50 Speaker_01
So as a result of that, it tends to represent your private life, but also issues by extension of the major topics of privacy, but also things like secrecy,

00:23:01 Speaker_01
secrets, sometimes concealment, because the stars and the planets are most hidden when they're in the fourth house of the chart. It can also sometimes very tangibly represent hidden matters in a person's life.

00:23:17 Speaker_01
And some of the ancient authors, like Valens, for example, associates the 4th house with confinement in certain circumstances, and the 8th century or 9th century author, Saul Ibn Bishr, associates it with prisons.

00:23:32 Speaker_01
So we'll see some chart examples where in some instances, depending on how planets are actually situated in the chart, it could represent that as well under certain difficult circumstances.

00:23:44 Speaker_03
Absolutely.

00:23:45 Speaker_03
And again, when it comes to the privacy and secrecy thing, not to beat this to death, but again, I think by virtue of the fourth house's trigon relationship with the eighth and 12th, very often the things that a person is going to be secretive about are the areas of life that do pertain to the eighth and the 12th.

00:24:07 Speaker_03
You cover up your the less pleasant parts of your life where you don't make your sex life public, you don't make your 12th house world public. These are all sort of things that are hidden away by their own accord.

00:24:25 Speaker_03
And I think of the fourth house as being the repository of the secrets that, not just family secrets that do occur in the fourth, but the secrets that a person accumulates over the course of their life if, you know,

00:24:40 Speaker_03
you know, wherever they're sort of living outside the purview of public life, you know, doing things that are supposed to be private or are not supposed to be done.

00:24:49 Speaker_03
And we keep them private because they're illegal or immoral or destructive or what have you.

00:24:56 Speaker_01
Yeah, that gets into a debate that I was going to put off until we get to the fifth house about what house to assign sex to. But I will say that there is often a connection between the three houses that are connected by triplicity,

00:25:11 Speaker_01
don't think necessarily by going to the place of associating them with the modern tendency to assign those triplicities to the elements, but more so because it does connect those three houses and some similar significations that all of them have.

00:25:28 Speaker_01
We saw that with the third house where the third house was like siblings and friends and communication. The 7th house was like partnership, and then the 11th house is friends and alliances and groups.

00:25:41 Speaker_01
So there's like this social and communicative aspect with all three of those houses that are connected through that trigon or toplicity. Because in each person's individual chart, the

00:25:57 Speaker_01
three whole sign houses that fall there will all have the same element or triplicity.

00:26:02 Speaker_01
So it's like, if your third house is Aries, which is a fire sign, then your seventh house is going to be Leo, which is a fire sign, and your 12th house is going to be Sagittarius, which is a fire sign. And that natural affinity...

00:26:21 Speaker_01
Thanks for correcting me. So the 3rd, 7th, and 11th, which would be Sagittarius. So there's a natural affinity in each person's natal chart, and that's the primary meaning of a trine or a trigon is like an affinity between two things.

00:26:36 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. We're not attributing that triplicity by virtue of the elemental consideration, but it does wind up being a parallel to whatever element we're talking about.

00:26:57 Speaker_03
But it's because the elements also connect by that triplicity the same way the houses do. But we're not, like you said, we're not doing it because we're doing a house equals sign type of approach.

00:27:09 Speaker_03
But it does wind up being consistent with a given element.

00:27:13 Speaker_01
Because one of the things I'll show in this episode is just how so much of the meaning of the house is derived from astronomical considerations, like the fact that the fourth house is the house that's directly below your feet under the Earth and that is hidden and private.

00:27:30 Speaker_01
And that so much of it just comes from that rather than the modern tendency to want to associate the fourth house with cancer, things like that, which I don't think is necessary and it's sort of like a separate discussion.

00:27:42 Speaker_01
One thing I will say, though, about your point about connecting it with the other two houses is with the eighth house and the 12th house is that part of the reason that those houses came to be associated with certain things that can't be seen or hidden or behind the scenes is because they don't aspect the Ascendant.

00:28:03 Speaker_01
The 8th house is in conjunct, which is not a major aspect or not viewed as an aspect in the ancient traditions. Let me put up a diagram. Whereas the 12th house also doesn't make a major aspect with the rising sign. it's like there's two reasons.

00:28:20 Speaker_01
Those are two very specific reasons then, because those houses cannot be seen relative to the first house, for that why they would have some of those meanings or significations.

00:28:31 Speaker_01
What's interesting about the fourth house though is it can be seen relative to the first house, but it's still under the Earth in the most hidden part of the chart that's hidden away.

00:28:43 Speaker_01
So it has a separate astronomical reason for being a hidden house that's not visible.

00:28:53 Speaker_01
One of the other major areas that comes up by extension is one that Lisa really emphasized as we were doing this research and came up with some chart examples that she's going to share later, is that the fourth house can also, by extension, have to do with the inner world, in a sense, of a person

00:29:11 Speaker_01
Some of the things that go along with that that we'll see in certain charts are contemplative activity, that's internal activity, under a distinction where if the top part of the chart is representing

00:29:27 Speaker_01
the visible world, then the bottom half of the chart in some ways, especially the fourth house, because it's hidden, can represent almost like the internal world in some sense.

00:29:39 Speaker_01
Sometimes things that come along with that can be topics like reflection, meditation, or ways that people cultivate inner states of being.

00:29:48 Speaker_01
In fact, one of the significations that Vettius Valens gives to the fourth house is mystical matters or secret matters is what he says, and it really depends on how you translate that from Greek.

00:29:59 Speaker_01
But we'll see that there are some people interested in more mystical things that do have an emphasis on that house that we'll talk about later. All right.

00:30:12 Speaker_01
One of the significations, one of the things I really focus on and that I've seen come up in transits is the fourth house having to do with the past, partially because it's opposite to the 10th house, which represents your future and especially the things that you strive for in terms of your career or your overall life direction.

00:30:31 Speaker_01
Whereas sometimes the fourth house can get associated with things that are behind you or in the past in some ways, sometimes tangibly.

00:30:41 Speaker_01
For example, if it represents your home and your early upbringing with your parents, then sometimes if you're an adult and you return back to your home or back to the house you grew up in, you start having this sense of going back into the past or reliving old memories.

00:30:58 Speaker_01
And I think there's a broader symbolic meaning then that has to do with the past when it comes to the fourth house.

00:31:03 Speaker_01
And indeed, even in the second century, Vettius Valens says that the fourth house refers to older people, or it may mean elders or something like that.

00:31:13 Speaker_01
So by extension, we'll see some charts where the fourth house has to do with that which is old or ancient, as well as things like history. And in some instances, getting to the bottom of things, So it's symbolically at the very bottom of the chart.

00:31:29 Speaker_01
And sometimes you'll see people that are really focused on getting down deep into the bottom of things or to the roots of things that have major fourth house emphasis in their chart.

00:31:40 Speaker_03
Yeah, definitely. The fourth house is definitely one of those places that we all wind up in therapy trying to figure out later on, work out those mysteries.

00:31:52 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah. All right.

00:31:54 Speaker_01
A more tangible, symbolic manifestation of the 4th house is that it can sometimes literally pertain to the Earth itself because it's literally, as I said, the Earth beneath your feet astronomically is what the 4th house is spatially.

00:32:12 Speaker_01
sometimes it can represent the Earth. By extension, it can represent the environment.

00:32:17 Speaker_01
Ancient texts refer to the fourth house pertaining to the land or to lands, as well as to hidden treasure, like things that are literally buried underneath the Earth, which also kind of combines some of the secrecy and hidden significations that we were talking about earlier.

00:32:35 Speaker_01
But one that we'll see come up in a few charts can sometimes have to do with things like environmentalism, CB All right.

00:32:44 Speaker_01
Finally, one of the major areas of the 4th house that I've focused on and that is very present in a lot of ancient astrological texts for the 4th house that's a little surprising from a modern standpoint is the topic of death actually comes up with the 4th house, both in ancient astrology and in terms of some of the research and chart examples that we're going to share, that this is the first time that we really encounter this as a topic.

00:33:11 Speaker_01
in this house, in the fourth house, even though in later traditions there tended to be an attempt to differentiate and put death only in the eighth house.

00:33:22 Speaker_01
While we will see it there as a major topic, it can also come up in the context of the fourth house.

00:33:28 Speaker_01
So ancient astrologers especially focused on the 4th house as pertaining to old age, to the end of life, by extension to endings in general, and the end of matters is what it was often said to signify, especially in electional charts or horary charts.

00:33:46 Speaker_01
Sometimes, by extension, it can mean the resting place of things or the final resting place of things. One of the major topics that comes up is posthumous things or matters that occur even after a person's death, like subsequent to their death.

00:34:04 Speaker_01
We'll see some interesting chart examples pertaining to funerals and things that happened as a result of the native dying that are actually very striking in terms of how certain people have certain people have a chart emphasis there.

00:34:18 Speaker_01
Sometimes those things impact the lives of people around them even more and in very specific ways than you might expect.

00:34:27 Speaker_01
By extension, a lot of traditional texts talk about the eighth or the fourth houses having to do with the burial and graves, which is very literal since it's talking about being buried under the earth.

00:34:40 Speaker_01
And one of the things that modern sources have really emphasized that's fascinating is there's this

00:34:46 Speaker_01
not contradiction, but this double meaning with the fourth house, where on the one hand, it represents the earliest part of your life because it's like your roots and your foundation with your parents and your early home and living situation.

00:35:00 Speaker_01
But then it also represents this stage at the very end of life in terms of death in some instances. So it has this dual meaning and this paradoxical nature of representing both the beginning of your life as well as the end in some ways.

00:35:17 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's full circle, you know, we use round charts, but I guess even if you're using a square or diamond shaped chart, it's still kind of a full circle type of context anyway.

00:35:30 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. And then finally, so that's the end of our signification section. I just wanted to have a quote from Vettius Valens, who's one of our earliest authors.

00:35:41 Speaker_01
Just to give you an idea of what he says about the fourth house, he says, the fourth house signifies reputation, father, children, one's own woman,

00:35:51 Speaker_01
and elder persons, what one does, one's city, home, property, dwellings, the end result of actions, changes of place, dangers, death, confinement, and secret or mystical matters. this is Vettius Valens from the 2nd century, around 150 CE.

00:36:12 Speaker_01
And we see some significations that are very familiar to us, but there's other significations that are a little unfamiliar.

00:36:18 Speaker_01
For example, children were assigned to multiple houses in the Hellenistic tradition besides just the 5th house, and the 4th was one of them, but also the 10th and sometimes the 11th.

00:36:31 Speaker_01
So that's a whole separate topic that I'm going to save for when we do the 5th house episode, but I just wanted to show you this just to give you an idea of what some of the earliest significations were almost 2,000 years ago.

00:36:44 Speaker_01
All right, and for those that want to do further reading on the significations of the houses or why the houses mean what they mean, you can check out my book, Hellenistic Astrology, the Study of Fate and Fortune, which is available on Amazon, where I really go into the theoretical rationale underlying the houses

00:37:01 Speaker_01
and some of those things about which houses aspect the Ascendant and which houses are angular and different things like that to really get to the roots of why each house means what it means from a technical standpoint.

00:37:13 Speaker_01
Another really great book is Demetra George's book, Ancient Astrology, Volume 2, which has a whole survey of what ancient, medieval, ancient Hellenistic, and then medieval, and even later traditional and modern authors say

00:37:29 Speaker_01
about each of the houses and what they signify. She just has this amazing survey where she quickly summarizes 2,000 years of different views on the houses.

00:37:40 Speaker_01
It's a really helpful guide, and it's helped me in my research and reviewing some of these significations as I've been putting these episodes together, so I strongly recommend checking that out.

00:37:50 Speaker_01
And then finally, I want to give a shout out to Levant Laszlo from thehoriproject.com, where he's translating a bunch of ancient Greek astrological texts through his page on Patreon and then making those available.

00:38:02 Speaker_01
And he's been doing a series on the houses, translating it from some of the earliest sources such as Rhetorius of Egypt, and that's been a huge benefit for me as I've been doing this research.

00:38:11 Speaker_01
So definitely check that out if you want to read from some of the earliest source texts on what the houses signify in ancient astrology.

00:38:19 Speaker_03
Yeah, all excellent. Does he pronounce his name Levent? I read it as Leventy, or have you never spoken to him?

00:38:27 Speaker_01
I don't know. I mean, we've always talked by typing and I do frequently mispronounce names, so I could be mispronouncing it.

00:38:35 Speaker_03
Yeah, I didn't mean to pick on you. It just occurred to me maybe he pronounces it differently. And since we're citing him, we make those options available to people to know.

00:38:45 Speaker_01
Okay. Okay. So now we're going to transition into talking about the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house and getting into the chart examples. But first, I needed to do a little preliminary

00:38:57 Speaker_01
thing to talk about some preliminary remarks before we get into that.

00:39:02 Speaker_01
I'm not going to repeat all the preliminary remarks from the previous episodes because I've done a little preliminary thing before each of these, so I would definitely refer to those for some previous comments and some extended explanations about our research process and different things like that.

00:39:18 Speaker_01
but I did want to reiterate a few. One of them is this was mainly my research project over the past few weeks, and I did a huge amount of research on it, and that's what I'm here to present today with the chart examples.

00:39:30 Speaker_01
I also had chart examples that were submitted by different people that helped me to research this, and I'll give a shout out to a few of them here in just a minute.

00:39:39 Speaker_01
And Nick's here to help me especially to share some of that research as well as some of the shared research that the two of us did together.

00:39:45 Speaker_01
But sometimes as a result of me sharing my research, I end up talking more because most of this is chart examples that I found, but I'm not able to do solo episodes anymore because my voice goes out due to my stuff with long COVID.

00:40:01 Speaker_01
So I just wanted to reiterate that because otherwise sometimes people are a little annoyed in the comments if I'm sometimes talking more.

00:40:08 Speaker_01
or leading the episode more than it seems like I should if I was just interviewing somebody or having a guest, if that makes sense. That's right. I'm here to boost you, not to be the center of attention. Sure.

00:40:21 Speaker_01
Well, yeah, and just help me get through this and present all this great research and information. So thanks for joining me and also being a great astrologer and researcher because that was a huge benefit to this as well.

00:40:35 Speaker_01
So as I said, Lisa's away dealing with family matters. She's going to make a little appearance later.

00:40:39 Speaker_01
I'm mainly using celebrity charts here because their lives are well-documented, although I did record a separate episode just interviewing normal patrons about their fourth house that I'll release after this that's already available for early access on Patreon.

00:40:57 Speaker_01
It's like both of those are helpful. It's good to do both things.

00:41:01 Speaker_01
But for the purpose of this, because this is research and I want to demonstrate what the fourth house means, part of what I'm doing is I want to prove what it means by using the lives of documented people primarily, and especially people that, for example, have

00:41:16 Speaker_01
like biographies written about them or have documentaries about them or have even Wikipedia entries. Because then when I say something about a person's life, somebody can go and verify it and say, yes, that's true.

00:41:31 Speaker_01
That was an accurate statement about that person's life. Or they can say, no, that wasn't an accurate statement or whatever. But that process of verifying is important to me because part of what I'm doing here is

00:41:42 Speaker_01
demonstrating and trying to prove what different parts of the chart mean objectively. I wanted to let people know, because sometimes people are uncertain why we're mainly focused on celebrity or notable figure charts, if that makes sense.

00:41:57 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's the key. It's not necessarily who the person is, but just how much information we have about a given person's life, which very often is someone who's notable for whatever reason.

00:42:08 Speaker_03
The great thing about doing the fourth house episode though, and I think the audience will find this as we go through the examples, in a lot of instances, whatever the fourth house means to the individual, even if there's someone super famous,

00:42:24 Speaker_03
it'll only have a tangential relationship, if any relationship at all, to what the person is famous for.

00:42:32 Speaker_03
So even if we're talking about movie stars or rock stars or what have you, fourth house matters still have to do with their private lives, their homes, not the things that they're known for, that they're icons for, but

00:42:43 Speaker_03
who they were, you know, behind closed doors and what really preoccupied them when they weren't focused on their art or whatever it was that made them famous.

00:42:54 Speaker_03
So there's nothing, you know, you can use all the celebrities you want to talk about the fourth house. Only once in a while are you touching on matters that actually pertain to what made them famous or what makes them notable.

00:43:07 Speaker_01
Yeah. I mean, sometimes they are often what we'll focus on as distinctive parts of their life and their biography, but that's what's so cool is we're often not

00:43:18 Speaker_01
know, talking about these people because they're celebrities, we're talking about them because their lives are documented.

00:43:23 Speaker_01
And therefore, sometimes when you point out something, especially about their fourth house, it's something that is applicable to normal people as well, even though we're talking about a celebrity. And that's why we focus on it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

00:43:38 Speaker_01
All right, so connected with that though, one of the points Lisa made is that it can be hard to capture everything about a celebrity's fourth house because it's by definition one of the more private parts of a person's life.

00:43:49 Speaker_01
So there's going to be things that we overlook. There's going to be things that we don't know. additional things like that, but we'll still be able to learn quite a bit studying the charts of famous people and people whose lives are documented.

00:44:02 Speaker_01
But sometimes it's by talking to people directly that you can learn even more, and this really comes out in client sessions or it comes out when you can actually ask a person about their chart and their life. That's one of the things that you'll see.

00:44:13 Speaker_01
We got into some pretty deep discussions in the separate episode I did on the fourth house with patrons, so definitely check that out for more balance into what that individual or more personal approach can look like in terms of talking to people about their chart directly.

00:44:29 Speaker_03
Yeah, absolutely. Whenever possible, I, you know, if, if a famous person has published their diaries or their journals, or not a biography. That's where you might get more of that sort of fourth house insight into that person.

00:44:45 Speaker_03
Or if it's a work written by someone who knew the person very well, and you really are getting a peek behind the curtain, so to speak. Yeah, but it is generally inaccessible by definition.

00:44:59 Speaker_03
The fourth house is what we know least about any given person, unless they volunteer the information.

00:45:06 Speaker_01
Yeah, and we'll see through our examples, at least we know quite a bit, but it can still be tricky to research.

00:45:12 Speaker_01
So to reiterate some other things from previous ones really quickly, we are doing traditional astrology with some modern astrology blended in, kind of a synthesis of the two, but our focus will be more on external events and trying to confirm some of the traditional significations of the houses.

00:45:28 Speaker_01
I may record a follow-up talk where we go into more psychological stuff about the fourth house,

00:45:33 Speaker_01
But that's not necessarily our main focus for the purpose of this episode, and it's something that comes out more clearly when you're interviewing people directly where they can reflect on their past and things like that.

00:45:45 Speaker_01
Another one that I've mentioned a few times now is that we do have more time charts for men in the databases, and as a result of that, that skews the databases and skews research sometimes where if you're searching and trying to find good examples of things, sometimes there's more men that come up.

00:46:01 Speaker_01
But I've tried to balance that as much as I can in this episode and to be more conscientious of trying to balance out the different examples used. But nonetheless, there's still that issue, but hopefully,

00:46:14 Speaker_01
as more astrologers come into the community and take part in this research and try to collect birth data, that'll start to be balanced out more with future generations of astrologers who are doing this work and actively trying to collect the birth times of celebrities that they're interested in or people whose biography that they've read and are able to get the birth time for some reason.

00:46:37 Speaker_01
So we'll see.

00:46:39 Speaker_03
Certainly in politics and the sciences is where this imbalance is most prevalent.

00:46:48 Speaker_03
There have been plenty of women, artists and actresses and musicians, but we know very well, I mean, in politics and science, women have largely been shut out of those fields for a very long time. And so, yeah, we just don't have as many of them.

00:47:06 Speaker_03
in, you know, relative to the number of men whose data we have who come from those fields. So it's just, it's a reflection of where we've come from and the imbalance that has existed in society is reflected in the data that we have to present.

00:47:23 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. But that's nice that it's something that's changing and we're starting to get and in putting out a call for charts, I was able to get a great amount of really great examples sent in.

00:47:34 Speaker_01
So other things people often ask in the comments, but if a house is empty, then you look at the planet that rules that house. That's the answer to that question. And that's what we're going to deal with in part two of this episode.

00:47:47 Speaker_01
Next, our goal is to talk about people's biographies, but obviously that takes time to tell their story and present it, but we're going to give that the time that it needs.

00:47:56 Speaker_01
Our purpose today between me and Nick is we're going to sit here and spend the day talking about my research and his research as two friends that are just sharing it with

00:48:06 Speaker_01
the public for free because we truly enjoy this and have found some really cool stuff in researching this topic that we wanted to share with the world.

00:48:15 Speaker_01
So it's sort of like if you sat together with a friend and then just talked for hours about stuff you've been working on and researching, that's kind of what this is supposed to replicate.

00:48:24 Speaker_01
It's not the most concise thing, but the purpose is to advance astrological research and to create a sort of legacy of raising the bar in astrological studies. So I'm willing to do what it takes to do that, however long it takes.

00:48:43 Speaker_03
Yeah, but you're absolutely right. If you weren't doing a podcast, this is the kind of conversation and the kind of thing we'd be doing for fun anyway, even if it was just between you and I. So yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:48:55 Speaker_03
This is what we do and how we do it.

00:48:58 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, exactly. And I love it. I mean, that was one of the things I told you just a few nights ago. I love learning about people's lives.

00:49:06 Speaker_01
I love comparing it to their charts and seeing how their charts play out in different ways and getting that confirmation. It's one of my things that I love the most about astrology. So that's why I'm excited to do episodes like this one.

00:49:20 Speaker_01
So the last point is sometimes I think about putting the material like this behind a paywall, especially when people complain about the length.

00:49:28 Speaker_01
But for me, it's important to put this research out there in order to advance our understanding and benefit the community.

00:49:34 Speaker_01
So if you appreciate this work, then let me know in the comments and consider supporting the work by becoming a patron to help me get through this long series. We still got a lot of houses to go.

00:49:46 Speaker_03
We're only a quarter of the way through, or we will be once we're done with this one. What you offer on your Patreon, there's a lot. You get a lot for whatever someone contributes, so it's really worth it.

00:50:03 Speaker_01
CB Right. Yeah. So yeah, and those people allow me to do this, put it out there in the public for everyone's benefit. So I appreciate it a lot.

00:50:12 Speaker_01
Last thing I was going to give a special shout out to, I had different research assistants that helped me with this episode.

00:50:21 Speaker_01
I want to give a shout out to Lisa Scheim, of course, that helped me and actually came up with a bunch of example charts, some of which she's going to come in and present later.

00:50:30 Speaker_01
Nick Dagan Best, of course, who I worked with extremely closely doing all this research and found a bunch of chart examples. You've heard of him? He's a pretty handsome guy.

00:50:44 Speaker_01
Camille Michelle Gray was also a major help and submitted a number of examples and I'll let people know each time I use an example that she submitted.

00:50:53 Speaker_01
Orla from OC Astrology on Twitter also submitted and did a bunch of great research and has been helping me throughout this entire series all the way since the first episode.

00:51:03 Speaker_01
We also had research help from Lindsay Turner, who found a bunch of great chart examples.

00:51:07 Speaker_01
I also wanted to thank Peter Sorrell from AstroSeq because he recently integrated a feature when I asked him for help, and if this could be integrated into his website, where you can now search for celebrity charts in his database that have either the ruler of the Ascendant and the fourth house,

00:51:26 Speaker_01
or the ruler of the 10th house in the 4th house. And that helped me to find some additional chart examples that I wouldn't have been able to find otherwise. That's fantastic. Yeah, his site is so good.

00:51:37 Speaker_03
If you haven't been to AstroSeek, folks, go there.

00:51:40 Speaker_01
Yeah, and actually speaking of, one of the ways that you actually contributed to this research and have for this series is through your databases in Solar Fire, where you've collected a bunch of timed celebrity charts, and you've entered that data into Solar Fire, and then you've made those files available for sale on your website.

00:52:02 Speaker_01
As a result of that, I've been able to search through your database in Solar Fire and tell it you know, give me every chart that has the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house.

00:52:12 Speaker_01
I have my own database I've been building up over the past decade that has a bunch of charts, but your database has a ton more charts because you've been doing that for much longer than I have.

00:52:22 Speaker_01
So I wanted to thank you for that and also tell people that they can actually purchase your database on your website, right? CB

00:52:29 Speaker_03
They can purchase files from my database. My entire database is enormous. And most of it is not made available yet, although at some point it will be. But yeah, I make files available.

00:52:40 Speaker_03
So there's what I call a general natal file, which is just people's nativities, no events. And then a bunch of, on my site, I make available some sort of national history files. So you can buy like an American history file or a Russian history file.

00:52:57 Speaker_03
There's a few countries, I'll be adding more. Spain and Portugal will probably come soon. Yeah, but there's a lot you can do with these files in terms of using them to learn astrology or satisfy curiosity. Cool. Yeah.

00:53:15 Speaker_01
All right. Well, people should check that out. Yeah, people should check that out. I'll put a link to your website in the description below this video as well as on the podcast website entry for this episode.

00:53:24 Speaker_01
Finally, also thanks to patrons that have sent in chart examples or celebrity charts as well as a bunch of people on social media when I put out a call for them sent in submissions as well.

00:53:34 Speaker_01
Some of those will especially come up when we get to the rulers of the houses in part two.

00:53:40 Speaker_01
I think that's it, so why don't we transition into chart examples and start talking about the ruler of the Ascendant and what it looks like when the ruler of the Ascendant is placed in the fourth house in a person's birth chart, and how important that is in terms of directing the native's life towards fourth house topics in a way that's actually even more striking and more significant than fourth house topics are in the lives of other people.

00:54:10 Speaker_01
All right, let's jump into our first chart example of the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house, which is Alexander Graham Bell, who is widely credited as being the inventor of the telephone. So here is Alexander Graham Bell's chart.

00:54:25 Speaker_01
He has Pisces rising with Jupiter, the traditional ruler of Pisces, located in Gemini in the 4th whole sign house.

00:54:33 Speaker_01
This is a day chart, and he actually has a mutual reception between Jupiter, the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house, and the ruler of the 4th house, which is Mercury, which is placed in Pisces in the 1st house.

00:54:47 Speaker_01
It shows a strong connection with the 1st house and the 4th house in this chart. One of the things that's interesting about Alexander Graham Bell is everybody knows him as being the inventor of the telephone. But growing up,

00:55:02 Speaker_01
He was actually deeply affected by both of his parents, deeply influenced his future career due to having different things related to hearing as a major topic in terms of their lives and his relationship with them.

00:55:20 Speaker_01
Especially, he was deeply affected by his mother, who gradually started becoming deaf when he was 12 years old.

00:55:28 Speaker_01
And as a result of that, he learned to communicate with her in different ways, such as, for example, at one point he developed this manual finger language so that he could sit at her side and tap out silently the conversations that were happening at home, and he was very close to her.

00:55:46 Speaker_01
He also eventually developed a technique for speaking in these really clear modulated tones directly into his mother's forehead where she'd be able to hear him with actually reasonable clarity.

00:56:00 Speaker_01
So his preoccupation with his mother's deafness actually led him to study acoustics, which then of course ends up leading him into the entire thing that would eventually lead to the development of the telephone.

00:56:14 Speaker_01
Interestingly, his father also worked extensively with deaf people, and his father taught Alexander Graham Bell, his son, elocution and how to read lips.

00:56:26 Speaker_01
So there's this interesting dualism throughout Alexander Graham Bell's life, where on the one hand, he's known for creating something that could be used by people who can hear, and on the other hand, he's also actually known for working with the deaf.

00:56:44 Speaker_01
So, one quote that I found said, quote, throughout his lifetime, Bell sought to integrate the deaf and the hard of hearing with the hearing world.

00:56:54 Speaker_01
And he encouraged speech therapy and lip reading over sign language, which is a little bit controversial today, but it was one of his positions and influence in terms of the history of the deaf community.

00:57:10 Speaker_01
He was also deeply interested in heredity, which is another topic that comes up with the fourth house. And this interest stemmed partly from his work with the deaf community because he observed patterns of deafness within families.

00:57:24 Speaker_01
So he was trying to study that and understand it in that context as well. But that's my first example, just because of how profoundly, in his instance, his parents influenced his later life and work.

00:57:39 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's a fantastic example. And also, I think a really great illustration of the mutual reception between that Jupiter and Mercury. That's exactly how mutual receptions often work.

00:57:51 Speaker_03
They take something that would otherwise be a challenge and either find a solution or somehow put it in a in the plus column, so to speak, take a disadvantage and turn it into some kind of advantage, if not outright, you know, resolving the problem.

00:58:11 Speaker_03
So, yeah, I mean, you know, the whole question of communication between people and being articulate and all these things that come between Mercury and Jupiter in the four immutable signs is really bolstered in his chart by virtue of both planets being angular

00:58:30 Speaker_03
and the mutual reception, which just sort of takes these two planets up, can typically be sort of at a disadvantage in a nativity and sort of turn them around and make them an asset.

00:58:43 Speaker_01
Totally, yeah. Mutual receptions are really important.

00:58:46 Speaker_01
And one of the things that we'll see and one of the things that's come up really strongly in my research is anytime there's a mutual reception between two houses, it very strongly connects the topics of those two houses in some way.

00:58:59 Speaker_01
And it tells you that those two house topics are going to be a very prominent feature in the person's life.

00:59:06 Speaker_01
But your point also that mutual receptions can also cancel out or mitigate heavily any sign-based debility that comes about as a result of the dignities and debilities of the planets.

00:59:19 Speaker_01
In this instance, Jupiter being in the sign of its detriment and Mercury being in the sign of its detriment and the sign of its fall. It's also sort of complicated, not complicated, but

00:59:32 Speaker_01
There's also frequently multiple indications of the same thing in a person's chart. One of the things that comes up with him is that he had a Sun-Saturn-Mercury co-presence or sign-base conjunction in the same sign, all in the rising sign.

00:59:46 Speaker_01
So especially that connection between Mercury and Saturn also kind of echoes some of those themes that would come up in his life.

00:59:54 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And just as a side note, when he made that famous first telephone call, he was having a Saturn return. He had just turned 29 about a week earlier.

01:00:06 Speaker_03
And so that first phone call is Saturn having just gone back into Pisces and making that return. Oh, wow. Nice, nice. Yeah, exactly.

01:00:18 Speaker_03
And of course, he was born really not long, a few months after the Saturn-Neptune conjunction in late Aquarius, that coincided with the discovery of Neptune. So yeah, it was almost like Neptune was discovered in September of 1846, I believe.

01:00:32 Speaker_03
And six months later, we get our Alexander Graham Bell, who's going to Yeah, connect us through modern technology to communicate and make the world smaller. Think about it, when he invents the phone, think about what phones are today.

01:00:51 Speaker_03
He gets that ball rolling. He's not responsible for texting or emojis or anything like that, but this is the start. If he doesn't make that first phone call, the rest doesn't happen, at least not the way it did.

01:01:05 Speaker_01
That's actually a point Lisa made to me privately recently. I thought it was a good point where she points out he is the ruler of the Ascendant and the 4th.

01:01:11 Speaker_01
And especially early on, one of the notable things for most of the 20th century, especially once it became ubiquitous, was that the invention of the telephone allowed people to communicate at long distances from their home.

01:01:25 Speaker_01
People would have a single telephone hardwired somewhere in their home and then could therefore talk to family members or could talk to other people from the comfort of their own home.

01:01:35 Speaker_01
So there's something more broadly in terms of that as well that's kind of notable in terms of his fourth house echoing in different ways, both personally as well as in terms of his universal contribution to humanity.

01:01:48 Speaker_01
And we'll see that come up actually in different charts as well, that there's often a dual two sides to the coin, where there's a personal impact and then there's a global impact that a person's chart placements have.

01:02:01 Speaker_03
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Or Lisa's absolutely right. When you think about it, I mean, it's a different thing today, of course, we're on the phone no matter where we are.

01:02:09 Speaker_03
But when I was a boy, and you know, when my parents and grandparents were young, yeah, the phone was in the home, and suddenly you had this device, you know, the home again, being a fourth house place, a private place, a place where you're

01:02:24 Speaker_03
usually hidden from the world. But Bell's Jupiter in Gemini in the fourth yet, it signifies the fact that with the advent of the phone, suddenly we could in a way access anyone's home, provided that they answered the phone.

01:02:40 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah. Yeah, such a great point.

01:02:43 Speaker_01
One last thing I wanted to make, and I talked about this in the previous episode so we don't have to dwell on it hugely here, but I do see that the ruler of the Ascendant, Jupiter, it's in the fourth whole sign house

01:02:57 Speaker_01
because it's in the 4th sign relative to the rising sign. But because Jupiter is at 8 degrees of Gemini and the IC is at 25 degrees of Gemini, Jupiter is on the 3rd house side of the IC in quadrant houses.

01:03:14 Speaker_01
Lisa and I were debating this in the last episode because it's tricky because you could say, well, that could be part of the reason for the major communication theme coming through in terms of being the inventor of the telephone.

01:03:25 Speaker_01
But then it's sort of complicated by the fact that Jupiter's in Gemini itself, which is the sign of communication, especially ruled by Mercury traditionally, like the primary house or sign of Mercury. But I'm still open to that because I'm

01:03:39 Speaker_01
starting to see these instances where you'll see both being relevant and there being an overlap.

01:03:45 Speaker_01
Obviously, his parents were very important to him and that was a motivating factor in his life, but then also he became known as the inventor of the telephone, so it's possible that both

01:03:56 Speaker_01
The whole sign house placement and the quadrant placement are relevant there, and that is how some of the Hellenistic astrologers in the late Hellenistic and early medieval traditions seem to have tried to reconcile those things.

01:04:07 Speaker_01
So I'm starting to study this and really try to put together some chart examples. And this could be one, although since it's not a clean one as a result of that Gemini placement, it could kind of go either way.

01:04:19 Speaker_03
Yeah, but this is really important to face head on. Houses are the most controversial subject in astrology.

01:04:28 Speaker_03
And rather than be sort of bothered by the seeming incongruence of competing house systems or having to take some kind of hard line one way or the other,

01:04:43 Speaker_03
I think astrologers are better off embracing the fact that some of this is multivalent or ambiguous, that there are different ways to look at this. It doesn't help as a consultant when you just want to have your

01:04:57 Speaker_03
your bag of tools that you reach in and you always grab and they're always reliable. But, you know, this is the cosmos. It is sometimes contradictory or paradoxical or reveals itself in more than one way. So, you know, don't get freaked out. It's life.

01:05:18 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. Well, anyway, so this is one interesting example of that, and we'll talk about that more probably in future episodes at some point.

01:05:27 Speaker_01
I will have a separate section in this episode on the degree of the IC, especially as it can float and land in different whole sign houses. So we'll talk about that later on, probably in the rulers of the houses section as well.

01:05:40 Speaker_01
All right, so that is our first chart example.

01:05:43 Speaker_01
Let's move on to our second chart example, which is the birth chart of the famous painter and artist Pablo Picasso, who was born with Leo rising and the Sun, the ruler of the Ascendant, was in Scorpio in the fourth whole sign house together with Mercury, which was also in Scorpio.

01:06:05 Speaker_01
And Pablo Picasso, of course, became one of the most famous painters of the 20th century, one of the most famous artists of the 20th century.

01:06:13 Speaker_01
But one of the things that's interesting about his biography is that his father was a painter and a professor of art as well. So this is one of our first examples of many that we'll see.

01:06:25 Speaker_01
Technically, the last one was also one of these, but one of the themes that keeps coming up over and over again with the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house is sometimes

01:06:36 Speaker_01
a parent that does one thing or is in one career field, and then a child that follows after them in the same career field.

01:06:46 Speaker_01
We saw a little bit of that to some extent with Alexander Graham Bell, but especially in this example, that's the main thing that I want to emphasize here. With Picasso, starting at age seven, he received formal artistic training from his father.

01:07:02 Speaker_01
So it wasn't just that his father was a painter and then Picasso inadvertently becomes a painter later on in his life, it's that he received intensive training, formal training, from his artist and professor of art father early on in his life.

01:07:19 Speaker_01
This was mainly in figure drawing and oil painting, but it played a really crucial role in shaping his artistic foundation and fostering his early development. especially because his father was an academic artist and an instructor.

01:07:35 Speaker_01
His father believed that proper training required disciplined copying of the masters and drawing the human body from plaster casts and live models. So I thought this was interesting because there's something about learning from what came before you

01:07:54 Speaker_01
in terms of a lineage of artists or in terms of inheriting some of the knowledge of the past. And I think there we're seeing a fourth house influence come in as well in a different way or a different aspect in terms of things.

01:08:08 Speaker_03
Yeah, there are a number of different ways that we can take Picasso's fourth house and talk about it. You're absolutely right. His father sort of trained him in the mode of the old masters. In 1891, the same week that Picasso turned 10 years old,

01:08:28 Speaker_03
His father got a job, he had been trying to get this job for years, but he was finally hired to teach in an art school in Galicia, which if you even if you don't know the geography of Spain.

01:08:41 Speaker_03
This is the part of Spain that's at the top like the northwestern corner like north of Portugal. Picasso's own family, he was born and grew up in southern Spain, you know, sort of down the road from Gibraltar, if you will, in Andalusia.

01:08:57 Speaker_03
So when he was 10, the same week he turned 10 years old, his family sailed around, you know, around the coast to the Atlantic coast and landed in Galicia.

01:09:11 Speaker_03
And even though they were technically still in Spain, this is a very, very different part of the country than where Pablo was from. And it was when they arrived in this new part of Spain and his father started teaching in the school,

01:09:27 Speaker_03
that Picasso as an artist blossomed in such a way that his father realized that the sun was eclipsing him already, that Pablo was already a better artist than he was.

01:09:38 Speaker_03
Transit-wise, I'll just put out there that this was right at the time that Uranus had just gone into Scorpio.

01:09:43 Speaker_03
So when Pablo's turning 10, Uranus has conjunct his son, and they move to a different part of Spain, even though they're in the same country. It's a whole other world, not one that he feels terribly familiar with.

01:09:56 Speaker_03
As an adult, of course, he's going to spend his whole adult life in France, in a foreign country. So he is getting used to being sort of the outsider, so to speak.

01:10:05 Speaker_03
But the whole thing about the Uranus transit, the fact that his father realizes that Pablo is already a greater artist than he is, the sense of the Uranus transit to the sun and that he's now living, he's now sort of like a foreigner, so to speak, and in his new home.

01:10:24 Speaker_03
And yeah, and also I think sort of there's a kind of You know, the whole father and son thing, that the fact that at such a young age, Pablo is already kind of humbling his father, already sort of taking him over.

01:10:45 Speaker_03
There's something to that as well and how it changes the family dynamic. Almost like Pablo's becoming the man of the house in a peculiar kind of way.

01:10:56 Speaker_01
Right. And he also goes in a different artistic direction than his father. And that was something that frustrated his father as well as his uncle, who also played a significant role in his life.

01:11:08 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, it's funny. You're talking about the past and the further Picasso goes, the deeper into the past he goes. I mean, it's true. He's totally subverting everything his training and his heritage gave to him.

01:11:23 Speaker_03
I mean, he's not famous for drawing very sort of symmetrical real-life images, of course. He's going to go in the direction of what they called primitivism, being inspired by really ancient African art. Of course, he's from Andalusia.

01:11:41 Speaker_03
He's from a place that had been more sort of integrated with Africa once upon a time. And, you know, and the whole idea of just like subverting everything, the way Cubism did.

01:11:56 Speaker_03
It's like the further he goes, the more he's trying to, you know, humiliate his father or humble his father in some way, maybe not deliberately, but just in terms of his artistic direction.

01:12:07 Speaker_03
But it's funny, the fourth house having to do with the past, that really is a big part of what seems to drive him. is to get to the essence of things, to get to some sort of point of origin that nobody's been able to make contact with yet.

01:12:24 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, and this is for the video version just showing one of his cubism paintings, Girl with a Mandolin, from 1910 and developing this style.

01:12:36 Speaker_01
Everybody goes through that process, I think, especially when you're a teenager, of rebelling against your parents or what have you. But for him, it's like his dad had been training him intensely to be an artist in his style since a very young age.

01:12:53 Speaker_01
At one point, one of the interesting things I read is that his father rented a small room for him close to home so that he could work alone, yet his father still checked up on him numerous times a day judging his drawings.

01:13:07 Speaker_01
you know, that notion of working alone in his own little space was kind of interesting. And then, of course, later on as an artist, he would often work at home on his paintings.

01:13:18 Speaker_01
That's one of the things as a painter, even though he would also have a studio and sometimes work there, but sometimes his work was necessarily brought it home.

01:13:25 Speaker_01
There were tensions between them as Picasso went in a different artistic direction, but nonetheless, still, his father's influence and guidance and support were essential in laying the groundwork for Picasso's future success, even though their artistic paths eventually diverged.

01:13:46 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah, that's right. I was only going to say that, yeah, Picasso does have a very loaded 10th house, and there was an element to his life as an artist that was public.

01:13:56 Speaker_03
You know, he had this studio in Paris, the Bateau Lavoir, and people would drop by and see him paint, you know, Gertrude Stein or whoever. So he wasn't always just sort of hidden behind a curtain, you know, working away. away from prying eyes.

01:14:12 Speaker_03
Sometimes he was doing what he was doing in full view of everyone. But that's another sort of element of his chart.

01:14:18 Speaker_03
But certainly, you know, there's this undeniable sort of Oedipal undercurrent to how he's responding to his father's training and how he develops as an artist. In some way, yeah, trying to sort of, you know, top his father or

01:14:39 Speaker_03
you know, somehow sort of show his father up in some fashion.

01:14:44 Speaker_01
Sure. Well, and some of that's also probably coming from the condition of the ruler of the 4th house.

01:14:51 Speaker_01
His ruler of the 4th house is Mars, which is ruling Scorpio, and Mars is placed in Cancer in the 12th house, which is sometimes one of the houses where you find people that you don't get along with very well.

01:15:01 Speaker_01
It does have some mitigations going on because it's a night chart rather than a day chart, so it's actually not the most difficult planet for him. But

01:15:09 Speaker_01
That's actually something we'll come back to later and I'll talk about in the rulers of the houses section as we'll get more into the ruler of that house and how that worked out in his life.

01:15:19 Speaker_03
Yeah, that Mars in the 12th, Picasso was rarely wounded in any kind of way, but he could be very destructive in his relationships and that's a whole other matter. It definitely played out.

01:15:33 Speaker_03
What he's doing to his father is something that he'll wind up doing to anyone who gets close to him in a way.

01:15:38 Speaker_01
Okay. One last point that I want to mention that Demetra mentioned to me, I was talking to her the other night because I was working on research in Picasso.

01:15:45 Speaker_01
And then I remembered that she uses Picasso as one of her primary chart examples in her ancient astrology books. So I wanted to ask her, I wanted to run by what I had so far and if I was missing anything.

01:15:56 Speaker_01
And one of the points she pointed out to me that I had overlooked was that when Picasso was born, they thought he was a stillbirth. So they thought he died actually.

01:16:09 Speaker_01
He was a stillbirth, but then his uncle, who also had some medical training, luckily took him. He did this weird thing where he blew cigar smoke in young Picasso's face, and it woke him up. All of a sudden, he came to life.

01:16:26 Speaker_01
And I thought this is a really fascinating initial preview of a topic that we're going to talk about more later when it comes to the fourth house and death, but just that initially when he was born, they thought that he was already dead.

01:16:38 Speaker_01
And we'll see that come up as a theme more later on.

01:16:41 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's a great point. I keep forgetting that part of his origin story, but you do always read that in the biographies that does appear to have happened. Right.

01:16:52 Speaker_01
All right, so I think that's good for that. Let's move on to our next chart example. Here's the next chart. This is the birth chart of a more recent example. This is Malala Yousafzai.

01:17:05 Speaker_01
According to her biography, this is one I've tried to use accurate birth times. This is one where there's a little question about the birth time, but according to her autobiography, she said that she was born

01:17:18 Speaker_01
at sunrise, and her Sun is at 19 degrees of Cancer. So if that's true, then it means she has Cancer rising, and her Moon is in Libra in the fourth whole sign house, and it's co-present with Mars in a day chart.

01:17:34 Speaker_01
So there's another alternative time that's floating around for her, but it's introduced by somebody that's known to have made up false birth times in the past, so I actually don't trust it.

01:17:46 Speaker_01
I'm going to go with what she actually says in her autobiography for the purpose of this, but I just wanted to state that just in case anybody wonders why I'm using a birth time that's slightly different than other websites.

01:17:58 Speaker_01
So Malala is a Pakistani female education activist, and she's really become well-known over the course of the past decade, and actually won a Nobel Prize in 2014, and became the youngest Nobel Prize laureate in history.

01:18:16 Speaker_01
for her work in helping to promote the education of young children, and especially young girls, and to make education something that's available to young children, regardless of where they live in the world, because she came from a part of the world where young girls were not either commonly taught or where it became outlawed to teach girls, because she was born and grew up

01:18:45 Speaker_01
in a region of Pakistan that fell under the control of the Taliban in the mid-2000s.

01:18:52 Speaker_01
Part of her story is she grew up and became an education activist, but what's really interesting is her father was actually an educator who instilled in Malala a really deep sense or deep love for learning.

01:19:07 Speaker_01
He ran a school that educated young girls, which was rare in that area, and then eventually became outlawed by the Taliban in the 2000s. So as she grew up and interacted with her father and followed in his footsteps,

01:19:25 Speaker_01
she continued to advocate for young girls being able to learn and go to school, even though the Taliban had completely outlawed and suppressed it at that point in time.

01:19:38 Speaker_01
So she began speaking out, and as the Taliban imposed stricter restrictions on girls' educations, including banning them from attending school, she began to speak out against this as an injustice in the world.

01:19:51 Speaker_01
But then in 2012, when she was just 15 years old, she was shot in the head by a Taliban gunman while she was riding a bus home from school, so that they actually tried to assassinate her and tried to suppress what she was doing in terms of promoting education for girls and young women.

01:20:11 Speaker_01
Thankfully, she survived the attack after undergoing extensive medical treatment in the UK, where she and her family eventually had to relocate after the attack.

01:20:22 Speaker_01
She had to move away from her homeland, and her family set up a new home in the United Kingdom.

01:20:31 Speaker_01
Despite the attempt on her life, though, she continued being undeterred in her fight for education, and she became a prominent global activist for girls' rights to learn.

01:20:44 Speaker_01
She set up a fund or a non-profit organization that works to ensure that girls have access to at least 12 years of free, safe, and quality education.

01:20:58 Speaker_01
One of the things that's interesting about that in terms of just looking at her chart is that both of the rulers of the two education houses, the third and the ninth, are both in financial houses.

01:21:09 Speaker_01
It's like the ruler of the third house of lower education Mercury, since Virgo's on her third house. Mercury is in Leo in the second house, the place of finances. And then Pisces, which is her ninth house of higher education, is placed in the ruler.

01:21:26 Speaker_01
Jupiter is placed in Aquarius in the eighth house of other people's money. And since it's a day chart, that's the most positive planet in her chart.

01:21:34 Speaker_01
So it's like setting up nonprofits and setting up funds literally for people to learn as a really literal manifestation of that placement.

01:21:44 Speaker_01
So as I said, eventually she was awarded the Peace Prize for her struggle against the suppression of children and young people.

01:21:49 Speaker_01
One of the parts that I loved about her biography is that she actually eventually graduated from college at Oxford in the year 2020.

01:21:59 Speaker_01
But one of the things she says on her website is that due to the pandemic, she was actually living at her parents' home when she graduated, which I thought was a nice touch.

01:22:11 Speaker_03
Yeah, I'm also the stepfather to two kids who graduated during COVID, and there was no prom, it was kind of, you know, COVID did that to that generation. But yeah, it's an incredible story.

01:22:24 Speaker_03
And the chart, the way she describes her birth time, she says she was born at dawn as the last light of the star blinked out or something to that extent. So it's a really,

01:22:36 Speaker_03
poetic and very precise kind of, without introducing actual sort of clock time, a very sort of precise account of her birth. The age of 15 is, of course, a fourth house perfection year.

01:22:50 Speaker_03
So when you see Mars in the fourth house in a chart, you can pretty much expect that there's going to be some kind of Martian event in that person's life because They would have their first synodic Mars return at the age of 15.

01:23:07 Speaker_03
If you look at the solar return of any person, when they turn on their 15th birthday, the Mars in the solar return chart will be just a few degrees from where the natal Mars is. which is the case in her chart.

01:23:22 Speaker_03
And so it's one of these sort of shorthand things that I have.

01:23:25 Speaker_03
If I see Mars in the fourth house, be it a day chart or a night chart, I know that there's going to be something about events for the native when they were 15 years old, that will have some kind of Martian theme.

01:23:38 Speaker_03
Not necessarily that they get shot the way she was, but it'll be something identifiably Martian that became a part of the person's life through experience. Maybe it changed elements of who they were.

01:23:53 Speaker_03
Maybe they would have become someone else if that event hadn't occurred, or so on and so forth. But yeah, just one of those great little astrological shorthands.

01:24:00 Speaker_03
You see Mars in the fourth, and you know that because it's a synodic Mars return at 15, which is always a fourth house perfection year, you can pretty much guarantee that there's going to be some kind of Martian story there.

01:24:12 Speaker_01
CB Yeah. Yeah. So obviously, it's more difficult for her because the ruler of her Ascendant is the Moon, and it's actually applying very closely to a conjunction with Mars with the Moon at 9 degrees of Libra and Mars at 10 degrees of Libra.

01:24:27 Speaker_01
And since it's a day chart, Mars is the most difficult planet in her chart. And also, they're both conjunct the Lot of Fortune at 10 degrees of Libra, which can sometimes represent that which befalls you or is outside of your control.

01:24:41 Speaker_01
There's additional complications with Saturn being up there in the 10th house in Aries. Obviously, that's a very extreme scenario where she's actually not just shot as a result of what she's doing in promoting education for young girls, but

01:24:58 Speaker_01
also essentially gets exiled from her home or from her homeland for her own safety and ends up needing to relocate to a new country. So this is one example of sometimes some things that can happen when you have difficult planets in the 4th house.

01:25:15 Speaker_01
Sometimes there can be challenges that arise in your home or challenges that arise in your homeland.

01:25:22 Speaker_03
Absolutely. Although it's ironic that Mars also rules the 10th house in the mid heaven. And basically getting shot was part of what made her a celebrity.

01:25:38 Speaker_03
I mean, she was doing important work before she was shot, but I think it is the attempt on her life that brought her to international attention. and helped her get a publishing contract and Nobel Prize and all that.

01:25:51 Speaker_03
I'm not saying it was a welcome event, but it is interesting. Sometimes misfortune does lead to that kind of turn. But yeah, she's a household name. She's a very identifiable 21st century figure. And I think it did start with that attempt on her life.

01:26:11 Speaker_01
Yeah.

01:26:12 Speaker_01
I mean, that's a good point just in terms that sometimes when you have challenging planets that are associated with the 10th house, sometimes you can become known for something that was challenging or a setback that you experienced at some point in your life that is something you have to deal with or wrestle with at some point.

01:26:32 Speaker_01
So yeah, that gets into some some interesting stuff about the rulers of the houses that we'll see a lot more of, especially when we go through the ruler of the fourth house in all of the different houses.

01:26:45 Speaker_01
But that's a good delineation right there that you just came up with, with the ruler of the 10th in the fourth, as well as just that her father influenced her career with the ruler of the 10th and the 4th.

01:26:57 Speaker_01
There's another just non-negative delineation of that.

01:27:02 Speaker_03
Yeah, exactly. But you were right, the overall condition of, you know, the fact that the Mars is with the moon in the lot of fortune, the fact that Saturn is opposite the Mars, the fact that the moon rules the ascendant, so on and so forth.

01:27:17 Speaker_03
You know, obviously her Mars, synodic Mars return at the age of 15 is a lot more severe than your average person.

01:27:24 Speaker_03
Not everyone who has Mars in the fourth house is going to be shot when they're 15 years old, but there will be an identifiable Martian event of some kind.

01:27:32 Speaker_01
All right. So I think that's it for her. So let's move on to the next example. Our next example is King Charles. I keep having him in my files as Prince Charles, but he's no longer Prince Charles.

01:27:46 Speaker_01
Now, King Charles III, who became king just two years ago, right? In 2022.

01:28:03 Speaker_03
I thought his mother died in September of 22, and his coronation was the next year.

01:28:10 Speaker_01
Yeah. You're right. So he was just coronated last year. Right.

01:28:17 Speaker_03
Sorry, there's always two stages. As soon as the previous monarch dies, the new monarch ascends to the throne. And that's technically when they become the monarch, but always it's about a year later after the mourning, the past

01:28:31 Speaker_03
monarch, that they have their coronation and it's official. So depending on how you look at it, but his mother died in September of 22.

01:28:38 Speaker_01
Yeah, got it.

01:28:39 Speaker_01
All right, so this continues our theme in a much more literal sense of children who take over from their parents, where he literally became king and took over the family dynasty from his mother after she passed away, after Queen Elizabeth II passed away on September 8th, 2022.

01:29:02 Speaker_01
So this is one I've used for a number of years, because the interesting thing about Charles is that he is the son of Queen Elizabeth, and she's been queen since the 1950s, and so he's always been in line to inherit the throne and become king.

01:29:23 Speaker_01
But then what happened is that his mother just happened to become essentially one of the longest reigning monarchs in history and had a very long life and reign, so that there was always

01:29:36 Speaker_01
this constant thing of he got pretty old by the time he became king, and there became a question of is he going to inherit the throne, or when is this going to happen, and different things like that.

01:29:48 Speaker_01
So I think it's so interesting then because then his mom Essentially, his mother retained power, was the one in charge for the vast majority of his life.

01:30:01 Speaker_01
Already recently, after he became king, just in the past year, he's been dealing with cancer, I think they announced earlier this year. There's already this question of

01:30:16 Speaker_01
did the majority of his life pass essentially with his mother in charge as the queen, and he's only taking over here.

01:30:24 Speaker_01
So Lisa did a lot of work on this chart, and one of her points was that his identity was very much wrapped up with his parent, with his mom in his instance, that he spent essentially his entire life waiting to inherit his position in the family lineage.

01:30:41 Speaker_01
that she ended up becoming one of the longest living monarchs in history, but also- The longest English one, I believe.

01:30:49 Speaker_03
Okay. Yeah.

01:30:54 Speaker_01
Yeah. But more broadly outside of that, one of the points Lisa made is that many of Charles's interests or activities prior to becoming king were actually fourth house related.

01:31:08 Speaker_01
So for example, his college degree was in history, but also he advocated for the preservation of historic buildings and especially the importance of architecture in society.

01:31:21 Speaker_01
he earned awards for environmentalism, ecology, organic farming, gardening, climate change, and architecture. So these are all major topics in his life in terms of his interests.

01:31:34 Speaker_01
So it's not just that Charles waited around most of his life to become king, but also he had other fourth house interests at the same time.

01:31:44 Speaker_01
And one last point that I wanted to mention here that I was really stunned by at the time, and it was nice remembering this as I was doing this research, is that his coronation occurred on May 6, 2023, and this was the day after.

01:32:02 Speaker_01
It was within 24 hours of a lunar eclipse that occurred in Scorpio in his fourth house, which occurred on May 5, 2023.

01:32:13 Speaker_01
It was one of those really early instances before I started doing all of that eclipse research that you and I did last year, Nick, where I really started paying attention to eclipses in people's lives because we saw the modern version of that, of a king having his coronation take place exactly on an eclipse.

01:32:33 Speaker_01
But for him, it was in his fourth house as he's taking over this family lineage, essentially, and becoming the next you know, link in that chain in terms of his family lineage of rulers.

01:32:47 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's true. He's, I mean, he's still, you know, as far as British politics goes, he's the leading light when it comes to environmentalism and ecology.

01:32:58 Speaker_03
It's really like the throne is kind of wasted on him because, you know, he'd be better off being prime minister and actually having a position of power to do something about it. But that's, you know, that's par for the course.

01:33:10 Speaker_03
That's the thing about the monarchy is, you know, people are born into like, like, you just have one job, you know, Charles had one job, which was to be there, be ready when his mother died. And so, you know, he lives well into his

01:33:25 Speaker_03
his 60s and 70s without that happening. And, you know, it makes the life kind of otherwise purposeless. And he's, you know, made relatively good use of that, you know, time that he had nothing else to do.

01:33:39 Speaker_03
It reminds me of Queen Victoria's son, the future King Edward VII, who was also a Scorpio. and who for a long time had a mistress who was the grandmother of Charles's wife, Camilla.

01:33:54 Speaker_03
So there's this whole very interesting parallel between, and Edward VII was also someone who had to wait his whole life for his mother to die, basically, and same kind of deal, try to figure out what to do with himself when he's literally prevented from pursuing most things that most people would do.

01:34:15 Speaker_01
Yeah. Well, one thing that's interesting about his chart is he was actually born just after a solar eclipse in Scorpio, not super close, but the lunation, he was born almost at a full Moon in Taurus on November 14th, 1948.

01:34:32 Speaker_01
And if you go back to the previous lunation, it was a solar eclipse in Scorpio that occurred on November 1st, 2048, so exactly two weeks before he was born. there was a solar eclipse in Scorpio.

01:34:44 Speaker_01
And then literally within 24 hours of when he becomes king, there's a lunar eclipse in Scorpio. So that's one stunning eclipse stuff, again, in terms of signatures.

01:34:55 Speaker_01
But also, his is one of the first examples of something that we'll see a lot of here in some coming examples, which is

01:35:04 Speaker_01
When his mother died and when he became king, there was eclipses that were bouncing back and forth between Scorpio and Taurus for that entire year because the nodes were moving through Scorpio and Taurus and through his 4th house and his 10th house.

01:35:20 Speaker_01
So one of the things that that actually demonstrates is that when eclipses start happening, especially in the 4th and the 10th house, it can show the interrelationship sometimes between your 4th house and your 10th house.

01:35:34 Speaker_01
That's true of all of the houses, that whenever eclipses are taking place, there will be seemingly unconnected parts of your life through those two opposing houses that sometimes will be drawn together for some reason.

01:35:47 Speaker_01
For him, it was his 10th house, like eclipses taking place in his 10th house and becoming king and finally fulfilling his destiny in some sense of becoming king

01:35:58 Speaker_01
with that 10th house placement, but it was as a result of his mother dying with eclipses taking place in the 4th house at the same time.

01:36:05 Speaker_01
So there was obviously a close interrelationship there that was very specific for him, but we'll see some other examples like that in the future. All right.

01:36:16 Speaker_03
Let's move on. Interesting. Just one last thought. His Taurus Moon was conjunct his mother's Sun. It's just interesting, just a little FYI.

01:36:26 Speaker_01
Nice. Yeah, family synastry. All right, so moving on to our next example, our next one is closer to you, my Canadian friend, where we have the chart of Justin Trudeau, who's the current Prime Minister of Canada.

01:36:39 Speaker_01
And he was born with Virgo rising and Mercury in Sagittarius in the fourth whole sign house, co-present with Jupiter in Sagittarius and Neptune in Sagittarius in a night chart.

01:36:52 Speaker_01
So the main thing I thought was interesting about Justin Trudeau that I realized as soon as he came up was that Justin Trudeau is the current Prime Minister of Canada, and his father was actually also a Prime Minister of Canada before him.

01:37:08 Speaker_01
not immediately before him, but his father was one of the longest-serving prime ministers in Canada's history. And now Justin has served multiple terms, and he's also starting to become one of the longest-serving prime ministers in Canada's history.

01:37:24 Speaker_01
So this is just another one of those examples, but in a different area of politics of a son taking over from their father or a son following in their father's footsteps.

01:37:36 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, his father is really important. Until his father was prime minister, the Canadian constitution was in London. We were ostensibly a dominion in our own country, but our constitution was still safeguarded by the Queen in British Parliament.

01:37:58 Speaker_03
When Pierre Trudeau was prime minister, he had a new constitution written and a whole ceremony. I got the day off school, I was 14 at the time, 13, going on 14.

01:38:14 Speaker_03
He was prime minister for 16 years, Pierre, the second longest standing Canadian prime minister, but really, really instrumental. at a turning point for Canada.

01:38:25 Speaker_03
The thing to understand, and you really see it in Justin's chart as well, that unless you know sort of the back story, it won't make much sense.

01:38:34 Speaker_03
Pierre Trudeau was born to a French father, French-Canadian father, and an English-speaking mother in Montreal, which may not seem like a big deal, but if you're in Montreal, that really is like being

01:38:47 Speaker_03
biracial, so to speak, or at least like if you try to relate it to an American context, it has that kind of quality where someone is a combination of the two worlds.

01:38:56 Speaker_03
And part of what made Pierre Trudeau an important prime minister in his time was the way he worked to reconcile the divide between those two language groups in Canada that sort of identify two political camps, if you will.

01:39:12 Speaker_03
And Justin, in a broader context, he's the son of a Quebec father and a British Columbia mother.

01:39:22 Speaker_03
So in a Canadian context, he's seen as like a guy who brings together the East and West in the same way that Pierre was the guy who brought together the English and the French.

01:39:33 Speaker_03
So when you see that fourth house that Justin has with Neptune, Mercury and Jupiter and Sagittarius,

01:39:40 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's what I see there is this sort of bringing Mercury and Jupiter together in that way is like, yeah, bringing the Eastern Canada and Western Canada together in a union or something to that effect.

01:39:57 Speaker_03
That's what the Trudeaus tend to signify is this bridge between these otherwise seemingly unbridgeable worlds that you get in Canada, which is a very sort of, very divided place, really. It's not a country in the same way that the United States is.

01:40:13 Speaker_03
It's not this sort of cohesive unit. And so, it makes these factors all the more important. The other thing about Justin... That's a good point.

01:40:22 Speaker_01
That's an interesting point just because in ancient astrology, mutable signs are said to indicate two of whatever they signify.

01:40:31 Speaker_01
So, that's sort of what's coming through there with the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house in a mutable sign in Sagittarius

01:40:38 Speaker_01
And that's something to pay attention to that we won't always note in every example, but that oftentimes the sign placement, there will be something that comes through the quality of the sign or the condition of the ruler or other things like that.

01:40:54 Speaker_03
Yeah. The other thing to say about that fourth house.

01:40:58 Speaker_03
When, when Pierre Trudeau died in September of 2000, there was a huge funeral I happened to be back in Montreal at that time, just for a couple of months, and, you know, you could go see that the coffin it was like a state big state funeral obviously like the same thing when a president dies.

01:41:17 Speaker_03
But Justin, who was just having his Saturn return at the time, Justin gave the eulogy on Canadian television. And it's still seen to be one of the sort of signature pieces of Canadian oratory, I suppose, in Canadian media history.

01:41:35 Speaker_03
Everyone saw him give this speech, this really impassioned testimony to his father and his father's work and legacy. And, you know, he sort of, the speech ended with him saying, you know, je t'aime papa, I love you dad.

01:41:51 Speaker_03
And, you know, this outpouring of emotion. And I think it was right there and then that, you know, people in the political world said, oh, we got to get that kid into politics.

01:42:04 Speaker_03
It's directly him giving that eulogy for his father on television is absolutely the key in the door that began his political career and that, you know, they started sort of grooming him to, yeah, you know, take up his father's mantle in a way.

01:42:22 Speaker_03
The Trudeaus are the closest thing you're going to get in Canada to a sort of Kennedy-esque dynasty, I suppose, at least now that, you know, Justin has been Prime Minister.

01:42:31 Speaker_01
That's evocative of the Jeff Buckley example that we'll talk about later, where he also had a big turning point at a, what was it? It was like a concert.

01:42:42 Speaker_03
A memorial concert for his father. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Very, very fourth house kind of thing where the son is ascending by virtue of the father's legacy. Even if it's being at odds with that legacy, it still bolsters the son.

01:43:03 Speaker_01
Yeah. Well, and that's another element here is like, will he be able to, sometimes sons or daughters who attempt to exceed their parent, so his father was longer serving than him currently.

01:43:19 Speaker_01
That's the question, is will he be able to exceed his father in terms of serving longer, which is an open question right now. But you said it was at his Saturn return. Do you know what degree Saturn was at?

01:43:31 Speaker_03
Um, yeah, well, it was, it was late September, 2000. It's almost exactly a Saturn return. I think it's like, it's close to the degree. Um, the last time I looked at it. Yeah.

01:43:41 Speaker_03
Cause Saturn had only made its ingress into Gemini in August of 2000, just before Pierre died. Um, so yeah, I think it was like a bang on Saturn return if I remember correctly. Let's say 25th, 2000. Yeah.

01:44:00 Speaker_03
And the eulogy on TV was early October, like October 2nd or 3rd or something like that. But yeah, it's basically a full on Saturn return. Okay.

01:44:11 Speaker_01
So that in September, because for the audio people we're looking at is- He died September 28th is when he died. Okay. So for the audio listeners, Justin Trudeau has Saturn at zero degrees of Gemini retrograde in the 10th house. It's ruling

01:44:29 Speaker_01
the Sun, which is in Capricorn in the 5th, and it's a night chart. But it looks like Saturn would retrograde back into Taurus not long after that by November.

01:44:40 Speaker_01
And I was just curious about that because I can see the degree of his Midheaven there at 27 Taurus. So that means his IC is in the 3rd house of communication in Scorpio.

01:44:52 Speaker_01
So that's getting activated as well, that axis right there as he's having his Saturn return. and maybe just looking for technical reasons why that speech could have been an important turning point for him.

01:45:05 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. It does need to be said, like Pierre Trudeau was a real sort of Renaissance man. He was, you know, an incredible sort of intellect and visionary.

01:45:17 Speaker_03
And I say this as someone who wasn't necessarily his supporter politically, but he was a really, you know, a really special person. But Justin is more of a sort of a front man. He's not the brains behind his government.

01:45:32 Speaker_03
He's sort of like the spokesperson. There are people behind him pulling levers, if you will, whereas Pierre was absolutely had no, he was completely his own force. Anyway. Yeah.

01:45:47 Speaker_01
Yeah. All right. Let's move on to our next chart example, which is the birth chart of Indira Gandhi. So here is the chart where

01:45:59 Speaker_01
She was born with Leo rising and the sun in Scorpio in the fourth whole sign house, co-present with a degree of the IC at 17 degrees of Scorpio.

01:46:10 Speaker_01
So Indira Gandhi was the first woman Prime Minister of India who served as Prime Minister of India in the 60s and 1970s and 1980s.

01:46:21 Speaker_01
So this is another example of, in this instance, a daughter following in the footsteps of her father because she was the daughter of the first Prime Minister of India, and her mother was also actually a political activist as well.

01:46:39 Speaker_01
It's actually part of a whole political dynasty because her son ended up succeeding her in office as the country's sixth prime minister, creating this entire political dynasty.

01:46:52 Speaker_01
She was the second longest serving Indian prime minister after her father, but her political lineage actually goes back even further because her grandfather was a prominent figure in the Indian independence movement to begin with.

01:47:08 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's right. Her grandfather co-founded the Indian National Congress.

01:47:15 Speaker_03
Her father was Nehru, who wasn't just the first prime minister of India, but also effectively a founding father, an important ally of Gandhi and the whole independence movement against the British Empire. And the family dynasty goes really far.

01:47:35 Speaker_03
Her father's sister, her aunt, was a really important figure in geopolitics. She was in the United Nations and a really important force there.

01:47:46 Speaker_03
And apart from one of Indira's sons following her as Prime Minister, she's also got, she had another son who was an important, you know, sort of political ally of hers, and his wife, he died, but his wife is the leader of an opposing political party to the Gandhi.

01:48:05 Speaker_03
So it's actually, it's a Not unlike, you know, what we see today with the Kennedys, it's a political dynasty family that is actually splintered now. But yeah, it really goes far.

01:48:17 Speaker_03
She's got, you know, grandkids and what have you who are involved in politics. So yeah, it's an important force there.

01:48:34 Speaker_01
Sorry, I just realized I was muted. I'm back. All right. One of the things that I liked about her story is that she was involved in politics from a very young age because her father actually mentored her.

01:48:46 Speaker_01
Her father was a close associate of Mahatma Gandhi, which immersed her in the struggle for independence from a very early point in her life.

01:48:58 Speaker_01
Her father involved her in political discussions and took her along on a lot of really important trips and state trips. This gave her a really invaluable exposure to the world of politics as well as to the world of just statecraft in general.

01:49:13 Speaker_01
It brings up

01:49:16 Speaker_01
sort of a broader thing about people following in their parents' footsteps, which sometimes in the worst-case scenarios today, the word nepo-babies comes up where people associate that in a negative sense, sometimes with nepotism in instances where it's like somebody gets a role in a movie because they had a family member or something like that who called the shots and pushed them in even though they're undeserving.

01:49:47 Speaker_01
But the other side of that coin, I think, is the different version of that where you imagine a family of, let's say, carpenters and a daughter or a son who mentors under their father or their mother for many, many years

01:50:08 Speaker_01
and is trained in this highly specific thing to eventually take over the family business, and then eventually does that, and it gets handed down from generation to generation.

01:50:20 Speaker_01
And that used to be much more common, I think, in the world, but we're seeing echoes of that here with some of these ruler of the Ascendant and the fourth house placements, as we're seeing people who are getting trained from a very early age by one of their parents in order to

01:50:38 Speaker_01
in some instances, take over from them, but in other instances, to just get the lived experience of their parent and having that transferred to them directly in a way that alters the course of their life.

01:50:52 Speaker_01
That's really what The Ruler of the Ascendant is about because The Ruler of the Ascendant is like the captain of the ship, and it's showing you something about what your life's destiny is being directed towards.

01:51:02 Speaker_01
and oftentimes when the ruler of the Ascendant is in the fourth house, it means for some reason one of your parents or both parents or other fourth house topics are somehow tied up in your destiny and your overall life direction.

01:51:16 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's very well put. I mean, she was weaned on politics because there wasn't a moment in her life where her father wasn't engaged first in the independence movement, like you said, working alongside Gandhi.

01:51:34 Speaker_03
And then once independence happened, Nehru was really the founding father of the modern Republic of India. So she was at his side through that whole thing.

01:51:46 Speaker_03
And when she did come to power, you know, she kind of, yeah, she knew the ropes to a large degree.

01:51:55 Speaker_01
Right.

01:51:56 Speaker_01
So she ended up adopting many of her father's political views, and this included democratic socialism, secularism, and non-alignment of India, so that she ended up continuing a lot of his policies of modernization as well as the industrialization of India.

01:52:14 Speaker_01
They reportedly shared a very close father-daughter relationship, and his letters to her, which were later published as Glimpses of World History, shows a really deep affection and intellectual guidance between the two. Yeah.

01:52:30 Speaker_01
So she ended up becoming prime minister just like he was. And then unfortunately, I often come across her story because she was actually assassinated in 1984, just a day before I was born.

01:52:41 Speaker_01
So she was assassinated on October 31st, 1984, and I was born November 1st. 1984. When you look up stories on the front page of the newspaper, that's usually the front page of the newspapers for me on the day I was born.

01:53:02 Speaker_01
But again, especially with some of the ramifications of her death and assassination, it brings up other fourth house topics already as an early preview of that theme.

01:53:14 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. I mean, India is a very, very tough country to govern because it's, you know, really like a bunch of little countries molded together by virtue of being on the subcontinent. She was murdered by Sikh activists because the Indian army had

01:53:35 Speaker_03
been in a sort of, you know, little mini civil war, so to speak, with the Sikhs. And then when her son succeeded her in office, he was later murdered himself by Tamils, you know, from what was going on in Sri Lanka and what have you.

01:53:53 Speaker_03
So it's a perilous position. And yeah, not just her, but also her son, they both, you know, they both lost their lives to assassins. by virtue of political fallout from their policies or things that people on their behalf had done.

01:54:12 Speaker_01
CB All right. Moving on to the next example, the next one is Richard M. Daly, who was a mayor of Chicago. What's interesting about him is that his father was also a mayor of Chicago, was a very famous mayor of Chicago,

01:54:31 Speaker_01
His father was Richard J. Daley, who for me, that name, I always know because it came up in the news this year because he was the mayor in charge of Chicago in 1968 when the Democratic Convention happened there and there was so much terrible stuff that happened.

01:54:51 Speaker_01
He was in charge of the city and had given some of the orders to the police that they carried out.

01:54:59 Speaker_01
really just a really simple one, which is that his son, Richard M. Daley, grew up and he ended up becoming mayor and he was reelected five times, eventually declining to run for a seventh term.

01:55:12 Speaker_01
So at 22 years, his was the longest tenure in Chicago mayoral history, surpassing the 21-year mayorality of his father, Richard J. Daley. So this was one of my first examples where there's a really tangible

01:55:28 Speaker_01
example where he surpassed his father by one year and then called it quits. So I thought that was pretty good.

01:55:35 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's another little sort of Oedipal theme in all of that. And you were born the day after Indira Gandhi was killed, and the Chicago Democratic Convention was two weeks after I was born.

01:55:47 Speaker_03
So these stories are also touching our own timelines as they were. But yeah, Daly's another great example, like Justin Trudeau or Indira Gandhi, where there's some kind of political dynasty being established once the son succeeds the father to office.

01:56:07 Speaker_03
And the fathers are always these towering figures. I mean, Daley as mayor of Chicago, the first one, in many ways is to Chicago what Trudeau is to modern Canada, or Indira Gandhi was to modern India. Sorry, what Nehru was to modern India, rather.

01:56:27 Speaker_01
Right. One of the things I like about these, though, that's interesting is with Charles, you have a hereditary taking over. He's king because he was Elizabeth's firstborn son. One of the things that's interesting about these other

01:56:44 Speaker_01
recent ones in democracies is that even though that gave them probably an advantage of some sort, like already having a famous name or having a famous parent who had been ruler before them, it didn't guarantee that they would absolutely become elected to their office or would become the ruler.

01:57:02 Speaker_01
It wasn't purely hereditary. So instead, they still had to rise to the occasion. They still had to take all of the life lessons that they learned from

01:57:13 Speaker_01
their parent or whatever, and apply that to skillfully or successfully become elected to these positions. Part of the other symbolism is people who rise to power in their homeland or rise to power in the place that they are from,

01:57:30 Speaker_01
whether that's an entire country in the case of Indira Gandhi, whether it's the case of a city when it comes to Richard M. Daly. It's also representing people who come to power or positions of power in their location.

01:57:48 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think it's safe to say in their cases that having famous fathers was certainly an asset in terms of forwarding their own political careers.

01:58:01 Speaker_03
But you're right, it's not like a dynasty of a monarch where it's guaranteed, where you're supposed to follow the parent into that position. In all cases, the position still had to be earned, it still had to be sanctioned by votes and what have you.

01:58:22 Speaker_03
So yeah, it's not the same thing as what you get with Charles, although they are viewed as dynasties. I mean, if you talk to Chicagoans about Daly, they'll think of it as a dynasty. Certainly,

01:58:34 Speaker_03
The Trudeau name or the Gandhi name in Canada and India have that ring to it as well. They're almost like organic dynasties, if that's an appropriate way of putting it.

01:58:46 Speaker_03
They're not officially sanctioned, but the people tend to think of them that way anyway, or they become that organically.

01:58:54 Speaker_01
Yeah.

01:58:54 Speaker_01
I guess it's just something I've been thinking about a lot because I think it's something that gets lost sometime in the recent how popular cliche it's gotten to talk about Nepo babies or nepotism, that there are cases where sometimes people are thrust into positions that they're truly not qualified for just because they have a famous parent or a parent who's in a position of power.

01:59:18 Speaker_01
But then other times you do have those situations where you actually have somebody that was born into a family that happens to focus in a specific industry.

01:59:28 Speaker_01
Therefore, they got a head start learning about that industry from a very early age because that's what their parent was focused on. Therefore, they actually are able to become more successful or more skilled, more adept at that specific

01:59:42 Speaker_01
let's say occupation or what have you, than other people because they really grew up around it. So it's interesting thing to take into account here with some of these examples that we're seeing.

01:59:54 Speaker_01
Sometimes you might see different things just depending on what the actual situation is. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Certainly. All right. So let's move on to our next example, which is the famous movie director, Francis Ford Coppola. Oh, yeah. All right.

02:00:12 Speaker_01
I know this is one of your favorite examples. Francis Ford Coppola was born with Capricorn rising, and the ruler of the Ascendant is Saturn, which is placed in Aries in the fourth whole sign house along with the Sun and Mercury.

02:00:26 Speaker_01
And Saturn is actually in a mutual reception with the ruler of the fourth house, which is Mars, which is placed in Capricorn in the first house very near the degree of the Ascendant.

02:00:38 Speaker_01
Here, we have another really strong connection between the first house and the fourth house. The main reason I wanted to use this as an example is because his most famous movies – he's a movie director, he's done

02:00:52 Speaker_01
number of different movies at this point, including one that just came out recently that lots of people are talking about.

02:00:57 Speaker_01
But still in his life, even though he's towards the very end of his life and career as a filmmaker, his most famous and influential movie is still the movie The Godfather.

02:01:09 Speaker_01
And the movie itself is interesting, both in terms of why he was chosen to direct that movie as well as what the movie itself is actually about.

02:01:18 Speaker_01
So the film is about an Italian crime family, and specifically it's about the patriarch of the family and the process of a son who is taking over for his father eventually as patriarch by the end of the movie.

02:01:36 Speaker_01
And one of the things that's interesting is one of the reasons why Francis Ford Coppola was chosen by the movie studio to direct the movie is because of his Italian heritage and his family background.

02:01:49 Speaker_01
Because it was a movie that was being adapted from a book about essentially the life of an Italian-American crime family,

02:01:57 Speaker_01
But the studios wanted it to be really authentic, so they wanted to go with an up-and-coming filmmaker who actually had an Italian background and could bring some of his family experience to the movie to make it feel more authentic.

02:02:10 Speaker_01
That was a major part of the movie that he was successful with, I think.

02:02:16 Speaker_03
Yeah. The situation was that the most recent gangster films that had come out before The Godfather had flopped. And they had flopped because they were seen to be inauthentic.

02:02:28 Speaker_03
They were written, directed by someone from Nebraska, or what have you, someone who had no real contact with this culture.

02:02:38 Speaker_03
So yeah, very much the way one of the producers termed it was, they were hiring Francis because he was Italian, because when you were watching the movie, they wanted you to be able to smell the spaghetti or taste the spaghetti.

02:02:53 Speaker_03
In other words, make it so, you know, like authentically Italian.

02:02:58 Speaker_03
And that that is a really great sort of, you can really see how the Francis's fourth house in its own way reflects the plot of the Godfather, the whole, you know, the handing over of the dynasty from the father to the son.

02:03:15 Speaker_03
But it really, it even goes deeper than that in a way, because Francis, like Michael Corleone, is a younger brother who was not expected to succeed. Francis Ford Coppola's older brother was, according to Francis, the family favorite, August Coppola.

02:03:34 Speaker_03
This is the father of Nicolas Cage. Some people might not know him. The actor Nicolas Cage's real name is Nicolas Coppola. He's Francis's nephew.

02:03:42 Speaker_03
And Francis grew up with like his older brother August being like the favorite and the one who's expected to succeed and the one who, you know, taught Francis a lot of the things he knows as well.

02:03:55 Speaker_03
So in the same way that Michael Corleone as the younger brother sort of rises ahead of his, well, his oldest brother is killed in the movie, and then the other older brother, he sort of shoots ahead of him.

02:04:07 Speaker_03
That was, in its own way, a reflection of, you know, a sort of autobiographical touch by Francis, in that it also sort of reflected what was happening in his life and would continue to happen.

02:04:22 Speaker_01
The other thing is... Because he exceeded his brother?

02:04:26 Speaker_03
Yeah, because he sort of, you know, succeeded where his brother had not, if you will. He became the success of the family as opposed to his brother who was expected to be, let's put it that way.

02:04:38 Speaker_03
Also, Francis's father is a musician and you can hear his father's music in The Godfather and in a lot of Coppola movies.

02:04:46 Speaker_03
Young Sofia Coppola, who we'll talk about in a minute, was born when the movie was being made and you can see her in The Godfather. She plays the little boy who's being baptized at the very end of the movie.

02:04:58 Speaker_03
So in other words, there's a real sort of family affair. Francis is a very family-oriented guy. He's always brought his family with him, no matter where he's filming.

02:05:08 Speaker_03
When he was filming Apocalypse Now in the Philippines, his wife and kids were there with him, no matter what he did. And he's a great advocate. If you ever see him in interviews, he encourages young people to go and have their kids early.

02:05:23 Speaker_03
He's all about saying, don't wait to have kids. People are always saying, I'll only have kids when I'm ready. He's like, have them now.

02:05:32 Speaker_03
So, yeah, very very sort of fourth house guy and another great illustration of how that mutual reception bonafides, what would otherwise be a tricky Saturn to have, you know, a Saturn and Aries and a night chart.

02:05:49 Speaker_03
you know, with the sun like that, that would be very difficult. And, and, you know, finally, it's, you know, the another interesting thing to it all is the fact that Sophia also has the sun and Saturn in the fourth house in her chart.

02:06:05 Speaker_03
Now that does, you know, it's, it's, the Saturn doesn't rule the Ascendant in the same way. But you can see this, this whole sort of family theme run through their filmmaking, not just in Francis's work but also in Sophia's.

02:06:21 Speaker_03
I think that the most striking thing about all this is that that Saturn of Francis's in 1986, within days of his birthday, which was his 47th birthday. There was a solar eclipse conjunct Francis's Saturn at 19 degrees Aries.

02:06:41 Speaker_03
And then a few weeks after that, Sophia turned 15 years old and she had her fourth house perfection year where she has the sun and Saturn.

02:06:48 Speaker_03
And shortly after that birthday, her older brother Gian, Francis's oldest son, was killed tragically in a boating accident.

02:06:58 Speaker_03
And Francis is, even now, if you watch an interview that Francis has done just in the last couple of months, he talks about how he spent 30 years mourning the death of his son.

02:07:11 Speaker_03
And one of the next movies he did after his son Gianni died was The Godfather 3, in which Sofia plays a role in which she's murdered at the end of the movie, not to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it.

02:07:26 Speaker_03
And then furthermore, when Sophia finally made her first movie, it's a movie called The Virgin Suicides. It's a wonderful movie, a film I thought was really fantastic. I like her work a lot.

02:07:35 Speaker_03
But in The Virgin Diaries, it's a story about a family, these very strict controlling parents with five beautiful young daughters who they sort of keep hidden away from the neighborhood boys and it's very sheltered.

02:07:51 Speaker_03
And then the girls in the end take their lives and the parents are dealing with all this grief. It's another very sort of sun Saturn in the fourth house themed work.

02:07:59 Speaker_03
And I think it touches on, again, all the sort of dynamics that are happening in the real world.

02:08:07 Speaker_03
Finally, with reference to that eclipse that happened in 1986, 38 years later, last April, we had that same eclipse, well, an eclipse at that same degree of 19 Aries.

02:08:17 Speaker_03
And within just a couple of days of that solar eclipse, Francis's wife died, Sophia's mother.

02:08:23 Speaker_03
Um, so this, this, uh, these recurring, you know, you were talking early about eclipses and their power, the, the, this recurring eclipse cycle that happens on Francis's Saturn has coincided closely with, with, uh, the, the death of, of two family members, uh, his son in 1986 and his wife in, in 2024.

02:08:40 Speaker_03
Uh, and you can see it in, in Sophia's chart and you can see it in Francis's chart. Um, and it's, uh, um, Yeah, just a really, really powerful bit of astrology there.

02:08:55 Speaker_02
Yeah.

02:08:56 Speaker_01
So it's like we're seeing both his major focus on family with the ruler of the Ascendant there and having three planets in the fourth house, but also because he has Saturn there in a night chart, it's also the area where he has some of his greatest challenges and struggles and difficulties.

02:09:13 Speaker_01
And in those instances with both of those eclipses in the fourth house, losing members of his family in tragic ways at those times.

02:09:23 Speaker_01
But overall, my main point with this example is just that he's somebody that frequently brings family along and integrates his life and work with his family and makes it part of that, including taking his family to like

02:09:41 Speaker_01
far-off places in different countries when he was filming in different countries.

02:09:46 Speaker_01
His wife actually shot a documentary once because the entire family was there about the filming of Apocalypse Now and what kind of disaster it was at that time because she was there with the rest of the family.

02:10:00 Speaker_01
And in some instances, his family has become prominent or members of his family have become more prominent as a result of being involved in his work.

02:10:09 Speaker_01
such as, for example, his father winning an Oscar for the score of The Godfather Part II is a really notable moment for him in terms of his family legacy and his relationship with his father and everything else.

02:10:23 Speaker_01
So it just creates such a unique cinematic legacy where the Coppola family is interwoven with some of the most iconic events in film history because of this focus on the fourth house, especially in his chart.

02:10:37 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's exactly right. And of course, you know, apart from being a filmmaker, Francis is also, or at least until recently, has been a producer of wine, which, you know, involves working with soil.

02:10:50 Speaker_03
There's a real sort of fourth house skill set involved there as well, in terms of owning land and cultivating, especially a very Saturnian operation like winemaking, which is always a sort of multiple year operation.

02:11:09 Speaker_03
You know, it's not just something that you start in one month and finish a few months later. You're always working on a sort of a schedule of years as opposed to months or days or weeks. Um, so yeah, there's, there's, it's, it's all over his work.

02:11:24 Speaker_03
I mean, certainly the, the example with his father winning the Oscar or, uh, with the, the, the circumstances that got him hired to be the godfather, uh, those reflect that, that fourth house of his, but just, you know, everywhere you look in his, in his work and his life, you, you see that, that fourth house, you see that configuration there.

02:11:42 Speaker_03
unmistakable.

02:11:43 Speaker_01
CB For sure. And I think the news reports are that he's sold off part of his winemaking business in order to fund the movie that he did this year, Megalopolis, which is kind of interesting. I haven't seen it yet.

02:11:55 Speaker_01
I don't know if you've seen it, but even the title is interesting that it's about a city of some sort. I don't actually know what the full thing is, but it'd be funny if that was like a fourth house thing as well.

02:12:05 Speaker_03
Well, there is an element to that when you're talking about the past. I mean, it's a very sort of futuristic movie, but it's supposed to be some kind of retelling of ancient Rome.

02:12:16 Speaker_03
He's trying to retell the story of ancient Rome in a sort of modern context that's removed from the Yeah, it's not set in ancient Rome, but it's supposed to be about ancient Rome.

02:12:31 Speaker_03
And I suppose about America in so far as it's a reflection of ancient Rome. But yeah, there is still a fourth house theme in all that.

02:12:40 Speaker_03
The most interesting interviews Francis is doing these days is the ones where he's out there talking about Roman history and philosophy. Because then you understand like why he's making the film and what it's supposed to really be about.

02:12:52 Speaker_01
Yeah. Well, people can let us know in the comments if there's any deeper things or connections in terms of that. All right, so let's move on to the next example, which is actually his daughter's chart.

02:13:04 Speaker_01
Sophia Coppola also has the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house. So Sophia was born with Aquarius rising, and the ruler of the Ascendant is Saturn, which is in Taurus in a night chart conjunct the Sun in the 4th whole sign house.

02:13:20 Speaker_01
So not just the father, but also the daughter has have the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house.

02:13:26 Speaker_01
And she, of course, as we said, grew up traveling around to his film sets, learned a lot about filmmaking, and even appeared not just in the first Godfather movie as the baby, but also in the third Godfather movie where she actually played a role in that movie.

02:13:45 Speaker_01
But then eventually she would grow up and become a famous award-winning filmmaker in her own right, basically. Yeah, basically, and become a famous director, but it's another one of those now in a different area.

02:14:00 Speaker_01
We had been talking about political examples of this. Now we have an example of this in filmmaking with a famous filmmaker, father and daughter.

02:14:11 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like I said, when she was 15, and having a fourth house perfection year, her older brother died.

02:14:20 Speaker_03
And I see that son Saturn in the fourth house and thinking, you know, she had to sort of help pick up the pieces when her parents were shattered by that loss.

02:14:30 Speaker_03
And I think you see a lot of that in, especially in, like I said, the theme of her first movie, The Virgin Suicides.

02:14:37 Speaker_03
I might've said The Virgin Diaries earlier, The Virgin Suicides, which again is a real sort of like a film about, you know, a family being devastated by, you know, death. And yeah, it's, I think it's a big part of, you know,

02:14:54 Speaker_03
Again, like with Frances, I think you see her work in her chart. Just another little side thing. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah.

02:15:02 Speaker_01
I think one of the things I got insight into at one point from a more direct in terms of her relationship with him, as well as a more psychological or internal glimpse of was, she received a lot of training from him since she was on set with him and witnessed his creative process firsthand so that this early immersion

02:15:21 Speaker_01
undoubtedly shaped her own artistic sensibilities to some extent in terms of just one's environment, and later she worked with him directly as a second unit director and as a costume designer, so that he acted as a mentor and a source of guidance throughout her career.

02:15:38 Speaker_01
But also, she's actually spoken about her admiration for him and the importance of family in her life, but she's also discussed the pressure of living up to her father's reputation and the need to forge her own path.

02:15:53 Speaker_01
I thought that was really interesting because

02:15:56 Speaker_01
It's not something I would have thought about, but it makes perfect sense in terms of, yeah, if you go into the same field as your parent, it's not just always a matter of nepotism necessarily, but you have to prove yourself.

02:16:10 Speaker_01
And so there's always going to be this shadow hanging over you to a certain extent of like, can I show that I have the skills and the quality to stand up to what my parent did?

02:16:23 Speaker_01
Especially if your parents directed The Godfather, which is usually regarded as one of the top movies of all time, and then you decide to go into the exact same same occupation of filmmaking, then you've got a lot to prove.

02:16:40 Speaker_01
That probably also gives insight into a lot of these other ones that we've looked at that we hadn't really thought about or talked about up to this point or our first glimpse into that. Probably every single one of the

02:16:52 Speaker_01
examples that we've looked at so far had a similar thing of having that feeling of pressure. And for her, it's probably much more pronounced because it's Saturn in the fourth house in a night chart, and it's the ruler of the Ascendant.

02:17:05 Speaker_01
So she feels like she has to prove herself in some sense, both to her father, but also to everybody else. But it's interesting psychological side of things.

02:17:17 Speaker_03
Absolutely. I mean, it's understandable why her cousin Nick changed his name to Cage to avoid the whole charge of being a success because of nepotism. And Nicolas Cage has succeeded on his own merits.

02:17:30 Speaker_03
He did have some small roles in early Francis Ford Coppola movies, but they didn't get him anywhere. It's the work he did on his own. As far as Sophie is concerned, yeah, that name speaks volumes.

02:17:42 Speaker_03
If her work wasn't any good, she could almost bring, you know, sort of not shame to her father, but she could damage the legacy that he's built, which is like that additional pressure.

02:17:54 Speaker_03
When he had to cast her in The Godfather 3 because Winona Ryder backed out, they both were heavily criticized at the time. So she's probably, I thought she was really good in that movie, but I'm in the minority.

02:18:09 Speaker_03
But she was obviously, she's been made conscious of the fact that her involvement in her father's work could go sour, could go awry. And that's just like extra Saturnian pressure. No.

02:18:25 Speaker_03
At the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned, if she wasn't making great cinema, no one would really care what her name is. But her films are consistently really good, I think.

02:18:36 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. And like you said, some fourth house themes actually consistently come up in her movies. One of them is an exploration of family relationships, where several of her films delve into complex family relationships.

02:18:52 Speaker_01
Sometimes there's a sense of isolation, like Saturn in the fourth house, that despite being surrounded by family, a lot of her characters sometimes experience this profound sense of isolation or alienation, which is kind of interesting in terms of Saturn in the fourth house.

02:19:09 Speaker_01
But also there's this emphasis on the importance of home And the concept of home in her movies is sometimes depicted as a place of both comfort, but also of confinement in some of her films. So you get these interesting themes that come up.

02:19:25 Speaker_03
Yeah, Virgin Suicide, certainly. The home is, you know, a confinement for the girls. I thought her, I'm again in the minority in this, but I loved her version of Marie Antoinette. I love that movie. It's unconventional, but she did it really well.

02:19:41 Speaker_03
I thought it was really well cast and beautifully made. But it's another film where, you know, you don't see Marie Antoinette go to the guillotine in this movie.

02:19:50 Speaker_03
It's all about sort of everything that built up the fact that she's, you know, you've got this Austrian princess who's got to survive in hostile France, the hostile court, because France and Austria have been at war.

02:20:01 Speaker_03
And so she's really alienated and trying to find her way. And of course, things go terribly wrong at the end. And we only get an intimation of that in her film.

02:20:10 Speaker_03
But yeah, it totally it's another film, even though it's a film about a very famous princess, who's famous mostly for how she died.

02:20:18 Speaker_03
She makes this very personal movie about a young teenage girl who has to, you know, make her way in a hostile foreign country. And it's just beautifully reflected in her chart. I think it's another example of that.

02:20:32 Speaker_01
Right. Living in the opulence of like the Palace of Versailles.

02:20:36 Speaker_03
Right. And yet it's miserable. It's confinement indeed.

02:20:41 Speaker_01
Right. Even in her other movie, actually, what you're saying makes me think of she has the ruler. Sophia has the ruler of the fourth, like Taurus is the fourth house and the ruler is Venus in the third house of travel.

02:20:58 Speaker_01
And one of her movies is like lost in translation and the entire

02:21:02 Speaker_01
movie is the two main characters living in a hotel, essentially, and having isolated existences, but then finding some comfort with each other, even though they're in a foreign place and a foreign location where they don't speak the language.

02:21:20 Speaker_01
She won a lot of awards for that movie. That's one of her early standout movies, I think, right?

02:21:26 Speaker_03
Yeah, it was her second movie, but it's probably her biggest success, yeah.

02:21:33 Speaker_01
So that's an interesting delineation that I'll have to save for the ruler of the fourth and the third because I actually have an example that's very like that, which is Richard Branson, who early in his life lived on a boat in order to save money and now has other situations where he's living on boats or yachts or other things like that.

02:21:57 Speaker_01
to save money. Yeah, exactly. Well, one of the things we'll get into is now he's working on space tourism, so eventually it's going to be about people essentially living temporarily on spaceships while they're away for a trip.

02:22:12 Speaker_03
I can attest he actually owns a house that I can see from, if I walked out this door, I could look up the mountain and see a house that he owns. Nice place. Looks like it's got a pretty great pool.

02:22:27 Speaker_01
Nice. All right, so that's it for the Copulas. I want to move on and do one more film director though.

02:22:33 Speaker_01
Another one that came up in my files when I was searching for a ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house is another famous film director, which is Martin Scorsese.

02:22:44 Speaker_01
He has Leo rising with the Sun in Scorpio and a whole stellium of planets in Scorpio consisting of Mars, Mercury, the icy, the Sun, and Venus all in the 4th house in a night chart, of course, since the Sun is in the 4th.

02:23:00 Speaker_01
So what I thought was interesting about him is that a lot of his movies really focus on, and it's become really important to him, is his Italian-American heritage, and that his upbringing in a really tight-knit Italian-American family in New York City has deeply shaped his worldview, but that his films often explore themes that are very fourth-housy, like different dynamics involving family,

02:23:29 Speaker_01
involving community, and involving especially cultural identity within this specific context.

02:23:36 Speaker_01
So you have films like Goodfellas, Mean Streets, and The Irishman that all depict in different ways different complexities of different family relationships within the Italian-American community, which include themes like loyalty, betrayal, the struggle between tradition versus assimilation,

02:23:59 Speaker_01
all sorts of other things like that. It was one of the first things that I thought of when I saw him come up in my files.

02:24:07 Speaker_03
Yeah, I'd say another thing for Martin, I mean, yes, his Italian heritage is important. The other thing about Marty is he is a New Yorker, like New York is another fourth house thing for him.

02:24:18 Speaker_03
If you think taxi driver, if you think after hours, a lot of his movies are very New York centric, maybe not Goodfellas so much, but although I believe it takes place there,

02:24:33 Speaker_03
But, you know, Taxi Driver, After Hours, he's got a number of movies that are very New York. Raging Bull, you know, he's really invested in that. Like Francis, he also involves his family in his filmmaking.

02:24:47 Speaker_03
You and I were talking earlier, that great scene in The Goodfellas where they've, you know, Joe Pesci and De Niro and Ray Liotta have a body in the trunk of their car that they, and they go by Joe Pesci's house because they want to get a shovel to bury it.

02:25:01 Speaker_03
Joe Pesci's mom is up and makes them a snack and all that. Well, that mom is played by Martin Scorsese's mother. And she does it beautifully. I think he didn't even give her lines of dialogue. He just said, go be Joe Pesci's mom.

02:25:14 Speaker_03
And she did what a mom would do. Like, oh, it's, you guys must be hungry and fix you a snack and all this stuff. And it's just, yeah, it feels, again, it feels very authentic. So yeah, it's another real sort of fourth house family oriented filmmaker.

02:25:26 Speaker_03
I like that it's

02:25:29 Speaker_01
I think it's in Scorpio though, and it's often crime movies or crime families.

02:25:35 Speaker_03
Right. And the whole idea, you've got a dead gangster in the trunk of your car, but mom's going to fix you some nice rigatoni or whatever, because you're a hungry boy and you're growing. There's something real perverse and funny about all that.

02:25:54 Speaker_03
He's made an amazing run of films himself.

02:26:00 Speaker_01
Yeah, and so you're right that New York City, the city he's from, plays a major role in his movies, but also the importance of place and that his films often emphasize the significance of physical spaces and their impact on the characters' lives in general.

02:26:16 Speaker_01
Because even his other movies, if they're not set in New York, there's often a specific location that's really important as a huge element of the film.

02:26:26 Speaker_01
casino, for example, was Vegas, and Vegas specifically in a very specific timeframe in the 60s or 70s or whatever it was. So the location is playing a crucial role in the film and is almost like a character itself. Right.

02:26:44 Speaker_03
Yeah, very much. And I mean, think about Taxi Driver, just the way it's filmed. It's the most New York movie ever.

02:26:54 Speaker_03
And I remember the first time I arrived in New York, when I was 12 years old, I had seen Taxi Driver, even though I wasn't supposed to be old enough. And yeah, it looked, you know, it reminded me of Taxi Driver.

02:27:08 Speaker_03
Taxi Driver captures something about New York City that no other movie really could. It's astonishing that way.

02:27:17 Speaker_01
Even his last movie, Killers of the Flower Moon, which was really heavy, but it was about that location and about the murders of the Osage nation and just some of the exploitation of that that was happening at the time due to oil wealth.

02:27:36 Speaker_01
And it encountered some very similar themes in terms of place and location, so things like Family.

02:27:46 Speaker_03
Family and betrayal. And yeah, I mean, it's, oh my God, what a movie. Yeah, exactly. It's still very rooted in the fourth house, even though it takes place a great distance from New York City.

02:27:59 Speaker_03
You still very much feel like you're a part of that world and it is really rooted in that land and that legacy and everything involved there.

02:28:09 Speaker_01
Yeah. Last thing that I want to mention about him, it's funny.

02:28:13 Speaker_01
I don't know, people may not know about if you're not old enough, but he even has directly explored the relationship with his parents, and he made a whole documentary titled Italian American where he interviews them about their lives and experiences.

02:28:30 Speaker_01
Here's a quote about what it's about, just to give you an objective synopsis.

02:28:34 Speaker_01
It says, over dinner at their New York apartment on Elizabeth Street, Martin engages his parents in a lively and candid discussion about their lives, discussing such topics as their upbringing, family, religion, marriage, their Italian ancestors, post-war life in Italy, and the hardships of poor Sicilian immigrants striving to succeed in America.

02:28:57 Speaker_01
Catherine also demonstrates her technique for cooking meatballs, a recipe later printed at the end of the credits of the film. Stuff like that comes up, and we'll see other instances of that.

02:29:08 Speaker_01
For example, Dave Grohl later on, his mom ended up writing a book about raising rock stars, and then she interviewed other rock star mothers that sometimes just

02:29:21 Speaker_01
the parents of the native will come up in a major way at some point in their biography, in a way that's not normal or that stands out, and that they'll sometimes do something like that or something in terms of the overall occupation will sometimes come up.

02:29:38 Speaker_03
When your comment about the meatballs reminded me of that bit in Goodfellas where they're in prison, but they're cooking these amazing meals and they're slicing the garlic with razor blades.

02:29:50 Speaker_03
Yeah, bringing home wherever you go, even if it's in prison.

02:29:57 Speaker_01
Right. Totally. All right. I think that's it for that example. So let's move on to the next one, which is

02:30:05 Speaker_01
the actress and entertainer Dorothy Dandridge, who was born with Leo rising and the Sun in Scorpio in the fourth whole sign house, along with Jupiter and the planet Mercury, all in the fourth house.

02:30:20 Speaker_01
She was a famous American actress and singer, and she was actually the first Black film star to be nominated for an Academy Award for Best Actress for her performance in the movie Carmen Jones in 1954. So what...

02:30:37 Speaker_01
What's interesting about her is that her mother, Ruby Dandridge, was also an entertainer and really pushed Dorothy from a very early age to sing and dance and act and to go into the same career field, essentially.

02:30:58 Speaker_01
Reportedly, partially because she recognized her daughter's talent and actively sought opportunities for her and her sister to perform, from a very early age.

02:31:10 Speaker_01
So there's a few things going on with this chart because early on, her mother created a song and dance act for Dorothy and her sister.

02:31:17 Speaker_01
And what's interesting, of course, if you're looking at the chart, is that the IC is in the 3rd whole sign house, so it's blending 4th house and 3rd house topics, but we see that Saturn is placed there.

02:31:30 Speaker_01
It's in the sign of its exaltation in Libra in the 3rd house, but it's also in a night chart, so it's the most difficult planet. And what happened is that

02:31:40 Speaker_01
On the one hand, her mother's dedication provided Dorothy with the early exposure and experience in order to catapult her eventually into her chosen career field, but some accounts suggest that her influence was also controlling and possibly exploitative at the same time, and that her and her sister were not treated well growing up.

02:32:07 Speaker_01
that the demanding performance schedule and the strict discipline that was imposed by the mother and her partner, who acted as a manager, likely impacted Dorothy's childhood and development.

02:32:20 Speaker_01
For example, they were touring the Southern United States constantly for five years and rarely attending school.

02:32:27 Speaker_01
As a result of that, with Saturn in the third house and rarely attending school, she ended up being illiterate or unable to read in her early years.

02:32:37 Speaker_01
due to that lack of schooling, even though they were traveling around performing in churches and schools. So there's a lot of third house themes there with that Saturn placement and the IC there.

02:32:51 Speaker_03
Yeah. And of course, the ruler of the third is retrograde in the fifth. So it's almost like she doesn't get schooling because she's off performing. The other thing about her chart, it's interesting, being a night chart,

02:33:08 Speaker_03
that Jupiter and Scorpio, you can really fathom if you know her story and her chronology, you can really fathom how, you know, even though Jupiter is a benefic and it does bring good things, in a night chart it can be a kind of double-edged sword.

02:33:21 Speaker_03
It's not always, you know, going to deliver favorable results. Dorothy's mother, Ruby, who you mentioned, had Jupiter in Scorpio. She was born on a Jupiter in Scorpio station.

02:33:33 Speaker_03
Her mother had the Sun in Pisces, perfectly trying Jupiter in Scorpio at 10 degrees. And she's born right on the station.

02:33:41 Speaker_03
And then when you go into like Dorothy's life, it seems whenever transiting Jupiter was in Scorpio, that tend to be periods where she was, you know, you know, where things were working against her in some way.

02:33:54 Speaker_03
This husband that she married in 1959, who wound up bankrupting her. She married him when Jupiter was in Scorpio, what would be the last Jupiter in Scorpio transit of her life. So there's something very curious about that Jupiter.

02:34:06 Speaker_03
When you follow her life, you know her mother's birthday, you know some of the ups and downs of her life. You you get a sense of like, wow, Jupiter's doing something that I wouldn't typically expect.

02:34:15 Speaker_03
It seems to be in that sign whenever things are going wrong, I guess is the way to put it.

02:34:22 Speaker_01
Yeah, well, it's getting afflicted by that square from Mars. Jupiter's at 3 Scorpio and its square Mars at 7. So it's like the ruler of the 4th is in the 7th and the ruler of the 7th is that Saturn in a night chart in the 3rd.

02:34:38 Speaker_01
And that shows up early in her life where it was her mom's partner that is the one that's actually

02:34:43 Speaker_01
primarily managing, but also pushing the two girls, Dorothy and her sister, really hard and potentially to the point of child abuse or exploitation in the sense of working them too hard and not giving them a proper education.

02:34:58 Speaker_01
And it's weird because it comes through the mother's partner especially, which is somehow coming through Dorothy's seventh house with Saturn ruling that, but then also at the same time,

02:35:13 Speaker_01
later in her life with Jupiter in the 4th house, but ruled by Mars in the 7th house. You mentioned that relationship, and we'll actually use her as an example later on of the ruler of the 4th and the 7th because her partner

02:35:27 Speaker_01
like mismanaged her funds and she ended up having to sell her beautiful home in Los Angeles or in Hollywood as a result of that and move into a little apartment that was very modest because of the mismanagement of those funds. Yeah.

02:35:42 Speaker_03
She had to declare full on bankruptcy. I mean, she was ruined. Yeah. Sell a beautiful house, but she had nothing. Yeah.

02:35:50 Speaker_01
Yeah. And then, yeah, there's some other stuff there, but we'll get to that.

02:35:55 Speaker_01
But it's a tricky case just in terms of her, again, this is the reverse or converse of what we've been talking about so far where it's like, here we have the ruler of the Ascendant and the fourth. And again,

02:36:12 Speaker_01
the daughter following in the footsteps of her mother to some extent in terms of being an entertainer. But in this instance, it's much more challenging. It's a much more difficult relationship.

02:36:23 Speaker_01
There's issues of abuse involved, and there's some negative things, even though it would still set her up with the foundation where she would later go on to be nominated for an Academy Award, for example.

02:36:37 Speaker_01
So yeah, we're just starting to get to that side of things as well, which is the more tricky side of family dynamics.

02:36:45 Speaker_03
Yeah. The synastry with her mother is really interesting, but I'll leave it to your viewers to investigate that on their own.

02:36:53 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. All right. Let's move on to my next example, which is the birth chart of Bindi Irwin, who is the daughter of Steve Irwin, the famous crocodile hunter.

02:37:08 Speaker_01
So Bindi Irwin was born with Aries rising and Mars in Cancer in the fourth whole sign house, co-present with Venus or conjunct Venus in a night chart along with the IC.

02:37:20 Speaker_01
So Bindi Irwin, her father was a famous conservationist and TV personality who worked with animals. He was known as Steve Irwin, the crocodile hunter. And Bindi's mother was also a conservationist and runs a zoo.

02:37:38 Speaker_01
So really early on, Bindi, the daughter, was raised in this environment where she got an early exposure and developed a passion for wildlife, being raised essentially at the Australia Zoo, surrounded by animals, and involved in wildlife conservation from essentially the very start of her life.

02:37:58 Speaker_01
So this early exposure to animals really fostered a deep love and respect for them, which became the foundation of her later career at this point.

02:38:08 Speaker_01
Her parents also introduced her to the world of being in television and being a television and media personality, and she appeared in documentaries and shows alongside her father very early on in her life.

02:38:21 Speaker_01
Eventually, this helped her to develop the communication skills that are necessary to become an effective wildlife advocate, which she would grow up to be.

02:38:31 Speaker_01
But unfortunately, she also experienced tragedy early in her life, where her father was killed in a freak accident by a stingray while he was shooting an underwater documentary when Bindi was very young.

02:38:45 Speaker_01
So that was this really tragic loss, and then she grew up and tried to follow in his footsteps. where he was a famous conservationist and wild television personality.

02:38:59 Speaker_01
She was inspired by him, and she's continued to try to educate the public about wildlife and to especially promote this fearless approach to conservation, which I think is a fourth house topic that he promoted.

02:39:16 Speaker_01
She actually has a book that's coming out and I really love the title because it's titled, You Are a Wildlife Warrior, Saving Animals and the Planet. I love that because she has Aries rising with Mars ruling the Ascendant and the fourth house.

02:39:33 Speaker_01
Talking about being like a wildlife warrior, I think is where that's really coming through very strongly.

02:39:39 Speaker_03
Yeah, absolutely. I remember Steve Irwin died in 2006 when you and I were neighbors, and I vaguely remember that we learned of his passing when we were together watching TV.

02:39:52 Speaker_01
Yeah, I actually remember that day when we learned. We were all kind of shocked.

02:39:56 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah, we were shocked, you know, because he was on TV a lot right at that point. And yeah, fantastic guy, really, you know, really fun to watch, really smart, somewhat daring.

02:40:09 Speaker_03
And, you know, he was certainly doing things that you wouldn't catch me doing. But it was always a family show, too.

02:40:16 Speaker_03
Like, you know, you knew his, you know, his wife was on camera, too, that the kids were kind of, you know, part of the scene, obviously not central to the show. it was always kind of a family operation.

02:40:27 Speaker_03
So she's, yeah, it is another instance of this sort of this, you know, dynasty thing coming on, but of course she was literally born into this work and she's doing great.

02:40:40 Speaker_01
Yeah, and it continues to be like a family collaboration where it's like Bindi, her mother, and her brother have worked together to continue her father's mission through the Australia Zoo and through various conservation projects.

02:40:54 Speaker_01
And this really close family collaboration has been really instrumental in shaping her career and allowing her to carry on her father's work.

02:41:02 Speaker_01
So I thought that was a really interesting theme here in the sense of having a very literal example of a daughter carrying on her father's work as being part of the main theme of her life with the ruler of the Ascendant there.

02:41:17 Speaker_03
Yeah.

02:41:18 Speaker_01
Yeah. All right. So next example is Britney Spears, and this is a more challenging example. So Britney Spears was born with Libra rising and Venus in Capricorn in the 4th whole sign house in a night chart.

02:41:36 Speaker_01
And the ruler of the 4th house is Saturn, which is in Libra in the 1st house in a night chart. So you have this very close connection between the 1st and 4th house because you have mutual reception between those rulers. And it's like you have

02:41:50 Speaker_01
most positive planet is Venus, the ruler of the Ascendant and the 4th, but then the most challenging planet is the ruler of the 4th, which is Saturn in the 1st.

02:41:58 Speaker_01
So you've got a difficult combination because it's the most challenging planet and the most positive planet locked together in this struggle between the 1st and the 4th house.

02:42:10 Speaker_01
And Britney Spears, of course, is a famous singer and is one of the world's best-selling music artists.

02:42:17 Speaker_01
And from a very early age, her parents actually recognized her talent and supported her aspirations for a career in entertainment and facilitated her participation in singing and dancing lessons.

02:42:30 Speaker_01
And her mother in particular was heavily involved in managing her early career. But then later on, as she started to gain more success, her father helped to secure record deals and guided her career during its initial rise.

02:42:45 Speaker_01
So her father started becoming much more influential as a manager.

02:42:51 Speaker_01
then eventually, as her fame grew, her father's management style became increasingly controlling, and this eventually culminated later in life in this really controversial conservatorship, which granted him extensive control over her finances, over her career, and even over her personal life for 13 years, where she had some

02:43:17 Speaker_01
kind of mental health episode in the late 2000s. And then a judge in California, I believe, granted her father pretty much complete control over her life. But then something that usually would be temporary ended up going on for 13 years.

02:43:36 Speaker_01
Eventually, it became almost kind of a spectacle because people were watching this and feeling that she was trapped or that she was being controlled by her father or by her parents and that it had gone too far. Eventually, there was a

02:43:56 Speaker_01
a whole social media thing with hashtag free Britney and different things like that, where social media people started trying to campaign or advocate for her in order to get her to be out from under the control of this, which eventually was successful.

02:44:12 Speaker_01
Her conservatorship was eventually ended on November 12th, 2021, after 13 years.

02:44:20 Speaker_03
Yeah. Patrick and I did a whole episode of our live stream on her life, and I read her autobiography, which I was not expecting it to be so moving, but it was really incredible.

02:44:32 Speaker_03
At the beginning of this show, the taping, you said we were doing mostly traditional astrology with some modern. I'd like to introduce just a little bit of modern to talk about Brittany, because I think it's an important factor.

02:44:48 Speaker_03
I would argue that it's possible that that Saturn-Venus mutual reception wouldn't be so harsh if it wasn't the Pluto square to her Venus really darkening her door. Because when you look at her chronology,

02:45:03 Speaker_03
Her rise and fall as a pop star is quite perfectly encompassed in the period when Pluto was in Sagittarius. When her life was finally coming apart, it was at the tail end of Pluto being in Sagittarius.

02:45:18 Speaker_03
Then finally, when she won the control over her life again, that was when Pluto finally came to her Venus in Capricorn in 2021.

02:45:28 Speaker_03
So you can just, this whole story that we're telling in its own way, you can also tell by virtue of the square of Pluto to Venus and that Pluto's transit through her Sagittarius stellium and finally landing on her Venus when she finally regained control of her life.

02:45:48 Speaker_03
Right.

02:45:48 Speaker_01
Because Pluto went into Capricorn like 2008, 2009. So that's literally going into her fourth house and passing her IC.

02:45:56 Speaker_03
Yeah, and 2007 was the year that she had her public breakdown that I'm sure everyone remembers. I don't have to take us through it. In other words, that was all Pluto and Sagittarius stuff.

02:46:12 Speaker_03
When she signed her record contract with Jive Records in 1997, Pluto had only been in Sagittarius for about a year and a half. Her records started coming out when it was conjunct her Mercury and then her Sun.

02:46:24 Speaker_03
And then she started to fall apart when it was conjunct her Neptune. So you can really trace that transit of Pluto. And it tells her story in its own way. And I think that's important.

02:46:37 Speaker_03
And it's possible because mutual receptions usually are more sort of benefic than that. And maybe we're splitting hairs here. Initially, her mother was an asset to her career. It's true.

02:46:53 Speaker_03
Things degenerated with the whole conservatorship and what have you.

02:46:57 Speaker_01
One of the questions I had, because this comes up in some other examples where

02:47:04 Speaker_01
We'll see some other examples later on where there was one person, Jeanette McCurdy, who was pushed into being a child actor early on by her mother, who was trying to live out the mother's dreams of being famous and pushed it on her daughter in a way that was inappropriate.

02:47:22 Speaker_01
I was curious, I don't know enough about Brittany's biography to know, was the

02:47:28 Speaker_01
Was it truly a case where her parents were supporting her own aspirations early on, or was it a case similar to that, where the parents were the ones pushing her to be a performer? Do you happen to know the answer to that?

02:47:40 Speaker_03
I don't know the answer offhand. I should know because I did read her book, but I read so many famous people. Unfortunately, that story is very common. Elizabeth Taylor's story is like that.

02:47:53 Speaker_03
She became an actress because her mother had wanted to be an actress. There's a lot of stories like that. They all start to blend together.

02:47:59 Speaker_01
It might not be that case because Jeanette McCurdy has a very specific reason for that, where it's like the ruler of the 4th is in the 10th, or the ruler of the 10th is in the 4th, and it's a difficult planet.

02:48:12 Speaker_01
So it's very obvious why that would be the case here, whereas for Brittany, maybe it's different, and maybe she did have just talents initially that her parents recognized.

02:48:23 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, I know she was on the Mickey Mouse Club, and she had to audition. The first time, you had to go all the way to Florida, and she lived in Mississippi, and you have to audition.

02:48:33 Speaker_03
And the first time she did, she failed, and so she went home, but she later went and succeeded.

02:48:39 Speaker_01
I think she was on Star Search or something too.

02:48:41 Speaker_03
She was on Star Search. Yeah, that's right. And she's like 15 and going to New York to sign a record contract. I think she had her own drive in it, but I think that she wouldn't have been able to do what she did if her mother hadn't been

02:48:58 Speaker_03
with her the whole way. You know, someone has to take the kid to Florida to do the audition. Someone has to take the kid to go to New York to sign the record contract.

02:49:06 Speaker_03
So yeah, it certainly, it started off as what would appear to be a supportive family operation. You know, some people, you know, I mean, you know, let's face it, culturally, we're not well trained in how to deal with mental illness.

02:49:23 Speaker_03
And, you know, people often sort of really drop the ball when it comes to coping with that. And, you know, I think that's a big part of what happened, what went so wrong here.

02:49:33 Speaker_01
And even with the conservatorship, I often wondered about that because I assumed that there was some good reason why she was originally put into that, and there was some intent on the part of the judges or even potentially her parents who were trying to help her.

02:49:48 Speaker_01
But it just seemed like it went on for too long at a certain point, whereas it was assumed that something like that should be temporary or should be weaned off after a certain number of years.

02:49:59 Speaker_01
So there was an issue there in terms of I didn't know who had what sort of intentions, and if they were good intentions initially, and then it just went too far, or what happened with that exactly.

02:50:10 Speaker_03
Well, I think if we had Brittany here on the call with us now, she would put the darkest spin on that. I mean, she's not terribly forgiving to her parents.

02:50:24 Speaker_03
So even if we're objectively to say, yeah, that does appear to be the case, they might've had her. you know, her well-being. They might've had good intentions way back when, two decades ago, and things just went sour somehow.

02:50:42 Speaker_03
I'm not sure that's how she would tell the story. And the truth might even be, you know, people are like this. We have to be able to handle paradoxes. The truth might be both. It can be that in some strange way.

02:50:59 Speaker_03
I think Brittany would disagree with that point now, if I read her book correctly.

02:51:07 Speaker_01
Yeah, and I think we can see pretty clearly why just because the most difficult planet in the chart is the ruler of the 4th house and it's in her 1st house.

02:51:14 Speaker_01
It was very much experienced as being constrained or almost imprisoned in some ways by her parents in some sense.

02:51:22 Speaker_01
So this actually then becomes one of the very first instances of that keyword of confinement and feeling confinement from the 4th house, which in this instance is being emphasized even more because it's Saturn that's involved in a night chart.

02:51:39 Speaker_03
Yeah. And Brittany's been confined. There's no doubt about it.

02:51:46 Speaker_03
Even back in the pop star days when she was really struggling with the divorce and the custody of her kids and everything was going wrong, you could see that she felt really trapped, really imprisoned by this world that had built up around her.

02:52:02 Speaker_01
CB Right, for sure. Yeah. All right. And then over the past few years, she's been free and then be able to do different things that she couldn't do before.

02:52:12 Speaker_01
And then that's been a whole process as she gets reintegrated back into having personal autonomy again over her life rather than having that autonomy delegated to her parents essentially.

02:52:26 Speaker_01
So that's a really interesting theme as well in terms of the ruler of the Ascendant being there.

02:52:30 Speaker_03
Yeah. Imagine only finally becoming an emancipated adult in your early 40s, you know, at Bachel's point.

02:52:36 Speaker_01
Yeah. And just like skipping over your 30s, basically.

02:52:40 Speaker_03
Yeah.

02:52:42 Speaker_01
Yeah. All right. Well, wish her the best. Let's go on to the next example. So the next example is the birth chart of Francois Betancourt Myers, who's actually, I believe she's currently the richest woman in the world.

02:53:03 Speaker_01
We used her in the second house episode first. That's where I first came across her chart. And I think she's actually one of the richest people in the world in total.

02:53:15 Speaker_01
because she's the daughter of Lillian Betancourt, and her family founded L'Oreal, the makeup and cosmetics company that's such a huge company at this point.

02:53:27 Speaker_01
So at this point, she's the 12th richest person in the world overall as a result of inheriting this company, basically inheriting her family's share of this company, essentially.

02:53:41 Speaker_01
One of the things that's interesting about her, if you look at her biography, is that she tends to be more private, and she has this stellium in the fourth house. I should probably mention the placements. She has Aries rising,

02:53:54 Speaker_01
Mars is in Cancer in the fourth house, along with the Moon, the IC, the Sun, and Uranus. Mars in particular is very closely conjunct the Sun at 17 degrees of Cancer and Uranus at 18 degrees of Cancer.

02:54:09 Speaker_01
All of those planets are square to Saturn in the seventh house at 20 degrees of Libra and Neptune at 21 degrees of Libra. Yeah, the Sun is essentially contained by that Mars-Uranus. Yeah, it's kind of tricky.

02:54:25 Speaker_01
It's pretty tricky because here we get two themes. One of them is inheritance and a massive amount of inheritance from a family.

02:54:34 Speaker_01
But then on the other hand, this is a more difficult one that shows conflict within a family as well that's centered around, especially primarily, something that's usually called the Betancourt Affair, where in 1987, her mother became friends with

02:54:50 Speaker_01
and became a benefactor of this celebrity photographer and her mother. ended up giving this guy just huge amounts of money and gifts over the years that ended up being totaling worth $1.3 billion, so just huge amounts of money.

02:55:09 Speaker_01
Wikipedia says at one point, quote, these gifts include, among other things, a life insurance policy worth 253 million euros in 2003, another life insurance policy worth 262 million euros in 2006,

02:55:26 Speaker_01
11 works of art in 2001 valued at 20 million euros, including paintings by Picasso, Matisse, Mondrain, Delaunay, and Leger, a photograph by surrealist Man Ray, as well as a lot of cash." What happened is that

02:55:46 Speaker_01
daughter, the owner of this birth chart, eventually ended up filing a criminal complaint saying that her mother was being exploited as a result of a psychological weakness by this guy.

02:55:58 Speaker_01
Her butler at one point actually feared that the mother was suffering from Alzheimer's disease and was being duped by this person, who was essentially giving away the daughter's inheritance, essentially.

02:56:12 Speaker_01
At one point, the mother actually attempted to make this guy her sole heir. So there ended up being some very public conflicts between the mother and the daughter, partially as the daughter was trying to stop this from happening.

02:56:31 Speaker_01
Luckily, the daughter ended up eventually being successful, and eventually the mother was separated from this guy and wrote him out of her will. Then not long after this, she was put under guardianship due to declining mental health.

02:56:47 Speaker_01
And the guy himself was eventually convicted of charges of taking advantage of the old woman. And then her mother eventually died in 2017. Then eventually, the daughter in 2013, 2023, she became the first woman who was worth over $100 billion.

02:57:10 Speaker_01
At this point, she serves as the president of her family's philanthropic foundation, which encourages French progress in the science and arts.

02:57:19 Speaker_01
But I thought this was a good example, just because we have those themes of inheritance, but we also have those themes of, in this instance, sometimes when something's really

02:57:27 Speaker_01
have a very difficult relationship with a family member, or when something is going awry in the family, and when your need to fight for that sometimes becomes a major chapter in your life.

02:57:41 Speaker_03
Yeah, absolutely. Accidentally, I'm once again going to have to introduce Pluto into this situation. It was in 2008 that she filed the lawsuit that she would eventually win, I think, in 2010.

02:57:55 Speaker_03
So again, we're seeing the transit of Pluto going to Capricorn and start to oppose, you know, first term moon and all that. When all this went under, So yeah, it's a very interesting chart. That fourth house is pretty distinct.

02:58:13 Speaker_03
That's not an arrangement you're going to see very often.

02:58:17 Speaker_01
CB Right. Well, actually, one of the things I forgot to mention is if you look at her chart, the Sun is at 17 degrees of Cancer. The South Node is at three degrees of Leo, and the Moon is at three degrees of Cancer. She was born

02:58:34 Speaker_01
the day of or the day before a solar eclipse in Cancer in her fourth house.

02:58:39 Speaker_01
So that's the other part of this in terms of eminence factors and other things like that of why this is a much bigger thing in terms of even almost like world history that she would become the richest woman in the world at one point, but it was tied up in this conflict and this inheritance with her mother.

02:59:00 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's got to be rough when your mom gives away over a billion dollars and yet you still inherit and become the richest woman in the world, even though your mom gave away over a billion dollars.

02:59:10 Speaker_01
Well, yeah, but can you imagine?

02:59:12 Speaker_04
Sure.

02:59:13 Speaker_01
I'm imagining being the native of the chart and your mother

02:59:16 Speaker_01
Let's say if that's true, and since he was convicted, I assume that was true, your mother's being taken advantage of by this guy, and she has declining mental health or even Alzheimer's, and she's being let on or something like that, and then you have to

02:59:32 Speaker_01
bite this somehow in order to stop this from happening and this becomes a central thing in your life. That's very much like that, that Pluto transit.

02:59:41 Speaker_03
Yeah, absolutely.

02:59:43 Speaker_01
Yeah. And here's what you were talking about. Yeah, we see Pluto going in. around 2008, 2009. And then I just wanted to see where it was in 2017. Yeah, that's what I thought.

02:59:54 Speaker_01
So it's like Pluto at like 17 Capricorn by 2017, and it's opposing her Mars and Sun and Uranus at 17 and 18 Cancer, and that's when her mom passes away.

03:00:09 Speaker_03
Okay. Yeah. There you go. There you go. She filed the suit in 2008, so that would have been right around the ingress, either just before or just after the Pluto ingress.

03:00:21 Speaker_01
CB Right.

03:00:22 Speaker_01
Obviously, this is a very unique situation, but it brings up some things that you can sometimes run into in terms of different family dynamics and things that can come up sometimes, like in that instance, needing to take care of a declining parent, which is a more universal situation that sometimes happens.

03:00:40 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, that is the thing about the fourth house. Like we were saying at the beginning, it doesn't matter who you are. The fourth house is the foundation. It's the base. It's an area of life that, I mean, some of us might live in nicer houses.

03:00:57 Speaker_03
Some of us might have families that are a little more pleasant than the other, but no matter who we are, like, whatever that world is, it's the world that we're sort of, we're stuck with. And yeah, it's where a lot of the trauma lives, you know.

03:01:12 Speaker_03
Again, that triplicity with the eighth and the twelfth, it's of all the angular houses, it's the one that, you know, carries all this baggage and yeah, like I said, trauma with it.

03:01:24 Speaker_01
Yeah, or sometimes good things. That can sometimes be the difference. Sometimes there's people that have a lot of benefics there and all the best parts of their chart are in their fourth house.

03:01:36 Speaker_01
The strongest thing in their life and the most positive memories are that they had a wonderful or very supportive foundation growing up from their parents and that that's something that they can come back to as a solid foundation or a solid even foundation of memories.

03:01:52 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's do one more example in this section, and then we've actually finished the first hilariously initial section. My final example here is Kylie Jenner

03:02:09 Speaker_01
who is a famous social media personality and is one of the Kardashians and was raised, grew up as part of a reality television family.

03:02:22 Speaker_01
She was born with Capricorn rising and the ruler of the Ascendant is Saturn in Aries in the fourth whole sign house in a day chart.

03:02:32 Speaker_01
the ruler of the fourth house of home and family and parents is Mars, which is in Libra in the 10th house of public and reputation and career.

03:02:40 Speaker_01
I think it was from the age of eight or nine, she rose to fame initially as part of this reality television show that was really popular at the time called Keeping Up with the Kardashians, which followed her family's life. So

03:03:00 Speaker_01
The main architect behind the show was her mother, Kris Jenner. But she also grew up with a famous father, who was Bruce Jenner at the time, and who was a famous Olympic athlete.

03:03:16 Speaker_01
And then later in life, Bruce would transition and came out as a woman, as Caitlyn Jenner.

03:03:27 Speaker_01
So what's interesting about Kylie Jenner is that she's at this point a famous media personality, socialite, and businesswoman because she was able to leverage her fame to launch a successful business, most notably launching Kylie Cosmetics, which is a makeup company known for its lip kits.

03:03:52 Speaker_01
So she's become one of the most famous and influential figures in pop culture with a massive social media following, as well as a significant impact on beauty trends.

03:04:04 Speaker_01
But her entrepreneurial ventures have made her one of the youngest self-made billionaires Although people have debated the title self-made just because of the involvement of her family.

03:04:15 Speaker_01
And what's interesting is the ruler of the second house of money and finances is located in the fourth house of family, and she was able to use her family's notoriety to catapult her to success and fame and to that status of being a billionaire.

03:04:36 Speaker_03
You can also see, just to interject about that Saturn, you can see she has the Sun at 18 Leo and Saturn retrograde at 20 Aries. So what does that mean, Chris? What does that tell us? She has the Sun at 18 Leo and Saturn retrograde at 20 Aries.

03:04:55 Speaker_03
And I'm asking, what does that tell us? So it's stationing? Exactly. That Saturn has just stationed. It looks like she was born nine days after the retrograde station. It's a Saturn that's got this extra intensity to it, being that close to the station.

03:05:13 Speaker_01
Yeah, that's a really good point. It looks like Pluto's stationing as well. But anytime you see one of those outer planets, especially Saturn and Jupiter in a trine with the Sun, you know they're about to station retrograde or direct.

03:05:26 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's an important sort of shortcut, again, to take that one-dimensional chart image and render it three-dimensional in your imagination. Yeah, when the Sun is trying Jupiter and Saturn, that's when they make their stations.

03:05:42 Speaker_03
Saturn, it'll be about a bit wide, maybe as much as 10 days away from the perfect trine. Jupiter, it's usually very close to the perfect trine.

03:05:50 Speaker_03
Yeah, you know, when you see the arrangement that way between the Sun and Jupiter or Saturn, then you can spot stations without having to look it up.

03:05:58 Speaker_03
And that can make a difference in terms of your ability to read charts quickly or to, you know, conjure some interpretation. So yeah, it's really handy to know that stuff.

03:06:09 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. Her chart is interesting for two reasons. One, just that her mom was the initial one who pitched to television producers the idea of this reality television show.

03:06:24 Speaker_01
In some ways, her mom becomes the architect and the main driving force behind the family. I wanted to point that out because I think it's important here. sometimes it alternates.

03:06:36 Speaker_01
We're seeing instances where sometimes it's the father that's more of the influence or is the one leading the family.

03:06:43 Speaker_01
In this instance, it's really the mother who's the driving force behind a lot of this that's coming from the fourth house in the chart.

03:06:50 Speaker_01
The other thing that's really important about the chart that's interesting and will segue nicely into a later topic is

03:06:57 Speaker_01
though the ruler of the Ascendants in the 4th house, which is typically a more private part of the life in the chart and can sometimes actually indicate even that privacy or secrecy or other things are more important to the native, what's interesting in her chart is the ruler of the 4th house is Mars, which is in the 10th house of career conjunct the degree of the Midheaven at 27 Libra to 29 Libra.

03:07:17 Speaker_01
So it's like

03:07:21 Speaker_01
you get when the most private part of the chart is in the most public part of the chart in terms of the rulers is her private life of her home and family life growing up for her entire life was put on public display because they had cameras following them around and documenting their interactions and documenting a lot of very private things in terms of their family over the course of

03:07:47 Speaker_01
what a decade or almost two decades now. So it's quite a unique situation, but you can see the archetypal dynamic there of why that's the case in the chart.

03:07:57 Speaker_03
Yeah. And keep in mind, she's the youngest in the family. She was 10 years old when Keeping Up with the Kardashians started taping and broadcasting.

03:08:06 Speaker_03
So imagine being 10 years old and all that part of your life, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, your whole adolescence, all that stuff is lived out on camera. different for the other members of her family. You know, she's got Kendall who's a bit older than her.

03:08:22 Speaker_03
And then, you know, she was always also going through this sort of early exposure to fame. But most of the other people in the family were adults and had, you know, lived a good portion of their lives being relatively anonymous.

03:08:36 Speaker_03
But yeah, for Kylie and Kendall, it's more of a sort of virtually a lifetime thing. You know, they were so young.

03:08:45 Speaker_01
Yeah.

03:08:46 Speaker_01
So it's like with the ruler of the fourth is in the 10th or the ruler of the 10th is in the fourth, you might find different lower-level variations of that in terms of the family being involved in one's career, but this is just a really extreme manifestation of that where the family is very much involved in her career and they're intertwined in this really significant way.

03:09:08 Speaker_03
Right. Another thing occurs to me with that Saturn making the station, the fact that it's Saturn in the fourth, the name of the show is Keeping Up with the Kardashians. Kylie's last name is Jenner.

03:09:19 Speaker_03
Now the story behind that is because Kris Jenner, before she married Bruce Jenner, who would later become Caitlyn Jenner, before that she was married to Robert Kardashian, who is famous for having been one of OJ Simpson's lawyers during the famous murder trial.

03:09:34 Speaker_03
And so it's Kylie's older half sister, Kim Kardashian, who was the center point of the whole TV show happening, even though the mother sort of orchestrated the show. So Saturn does have to do with like, you know,

03:09:50 Speaker_03
Sometimes it's step-parents and things like that, or adoption or what have you. I think in this case, it's sort of the fact that the name of the show is her older sister's surname, and it's not the Jenner's.

03:10:05 Speaker_03
It's not keeping up with the Jenner's, I guess is my point.

03:10:08 Speaker_01
Yeah, that's a really good point. That's interesting. Yeah. All right. Well, those are our initial set of examples of just like parents and the ruler of the Ascendant being in the 4th and parents being a really prominent part of the life.

03:10:20 Speaker_01
So let's take a little break and then we'll transition into the next section about home and living situation.

03:10:26 Speaker_01
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03:10:35 Speaker_01
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03:10:44 Speaker_01
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03:10:55 Speaker_01
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03:11:00 Speaker_01
All right, we're back from break, and now we're going to move into a section talking about the home and the living situation and showing examples of that with the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house.

03:11:12 Speaker_01
So our first example is Dave Grohl, and he has Let me just put his chart up here. So he has Capricorn rising with Saturn in Aries in the fourth whole sign house. And his Sun is actually about six degrees from rising.

03:11:32 Speaker_01
His Sun's at 24 and his Ascendant's at 18. So like George Lucas, I've treated this over the past several years as a day chart. I think it works better as a day chart. People can make arguments either way.

03:11:46 Speaker_01
For the purpose of this, I'll treat it as a day chart. And what's interesting about Dave Grohl is a few different things.

03:11:56 Speaker_01
He was the drummer in Nirvana, and then after Nirvana started his own band, the Foo Fighters, which has since become super popular. So he's in two of the biggest sort of bands of the past 30 years, I think.

03:12:12 Speaker_01
And one of the things that's really interesting is that his mom was a teacher and she was very supportive of his career as a musician. So one of the first things that he did when he became famous was he actually paid off her house.

03:12:28 Speaker_01
And I think this is interesting because he has the ruler of the second house of finances is Saturn, which is in the fourth house of parents. I love that that was one of the first things he did.

03:12:40 Speaker_01
He said in this interview I was watching the other day that they had talked about buying her a new house, but instead they decided to keep and just pay off current house because that was Dave's childhood home.

03:12:57 Speaker_01
So she ended up staying living there throughout the end of her life and she only just passed away a couple of years ago, but Dave would fly back there periodically and then go back home basically to his childhood home in order to experience that basically and in order to have a sort of

03:13:18 Speaker_01
a way to go back and get grounded despite his fame. And he's talked about the importance of his childhood home and returning there and how that helps him stay grounded for a long time. So that's really interesting.

03:13:31 Speaker_01
And then I was watching this other interview with Conan O'Brien, and one of his questions was like,

03:13:38 Speaker_01
you know, given your somewhat punk rock background, did you ever have concern about becoming rich and successful or famous early on when Nirvana took off? And Dave's answer was like, well, no, not really.

03:13:51 Speaker_01
Because at the time before Nirvana took off, I was living with Kurt Cobain as friends and as bandmates, but that we were living in squalor. So he said something like, I would have done anything to have a place of my own at that point in time.

03:14:07 Speaker_01
That's the exact quote. He said, I would have done anything to have my own apartment and to be able to do that with music, so while being a musician.

03:14:15 Speaker_01
And what's funny about that is it partly reflects the ruler of his fourth house, which is that he has Aries on the fourth house, and the ruler of the fourth house of home and living situation is Mars, which is in Scorpio in the 11th whole sign house with the midheaven.

03:14:30 Speaker_01
And so he, of course, was living with his friend, Kurt Cobain, and living with also his bandmate. But also when he was younger and a teenager, he went through periods of living with other friends, especially as he was touring with different bands.

03:14:44 Speaker_01
And then he would continue to do that, of course, as an adult as he toured the world with his friends and bandmates.

03:14:52 Speaker_03
Yeah. Interestingly, Cobain, of course, also had Mars and Scorpio.

03:14:58 Speaker_03
The account of the two of them living together, which would have started in sort of late 1990, Kurt had been living with his girlfriend, he and his girlfriend broke up, the girlfriend moved out, so Kurt was living on his own for a little bit, and apparently that really descended into squalor.

03:15:13 Speaker_03
And then Dave Grohl moved to Seattle or moved to Washington anyway, I guess this was in Olympia where Kurt had the apartment and he joins Nirvana and he moves in.

03:15:21 Speaker_03
First, he lives with Chris for about a few weeks and then he moves in with Kurt at this place that is sort of this place of squalor. But everyone who knows them says when Dave moved in with Kurt, the place did get more homey.

03:15:34 Speaker_03
Like it was still kind of a, you know, rock musician crash pad, if you will. But just the minute Dave moved in with Kurt, you know, it went from being a real hopeless case of a flophouse to something semi-homey.

03:15:49 Speaker_01
Nice. Yeah, that's really good.

03:15:53 Speaker_01
So yeah, that was one of the things I wanted to give, even though it seems like a subtle example, but I think it's one that's relevant for people that have the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house is that Dave Grohl would periodically fly back home in order to rest and recharge.

03:16:07 Speaker_01
And that's something I've heard from other ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house people. And also it's like you think about that, it's like you go back to your childhood home.

03:16:17 Speaker_01
Some people have that and they have like, you know, their parents have their bedroom is like the same or something like that.

03:16:22 Speaker_01
And all of a sudden it's like traveling back in time and seeing your roots and where you grew up and what you came from and who you used to be at a certain point in time.

03:16:32 Speaker_01
So you start getting a lot of other feelings and a lot of other sort of psychological things that come along with that.

03:16:39 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. I mean, what I know about Dave before he joined Nirvana, he was in this band called Scream. I had one of their albums at one point. One of these Washington DC bands, and he toured a lot.

03:16:50 Speaker_03
Basically, the story of Dave's life is apparently a lot of his adolescence, he was, you know, sleeping in vans and stuff. So that can only sort of compound a person's desire to have, you know, a comfortable fourth house environment to settle down in.

03:17:06 Speaker_01
Right, for sure.

03:17:08 Speaker_01
And then the last point, I didn't know until a few days ago, but his mom actually wrote a book a few years ago about raising a rock star where she talked about raising Dave, but she also went around and interviewed other rock star moms or moms of famous rock stars and musicians.

03:17:27 Speaker_01
And I thought the title was striking. from cradle to stage, stories from the mothers who rocked and raised rock stars.

03:17:37 Speaker_01
The description says, Virginia decided to seek out other rock star mothers to ask these questions, and so began a two-year odyssey in which she interviewed such women as Verna Griffin, Dr. Dre's mother, Mariana Stite, Michael Stite of RRM's mother, Janice Winehouse, Amy Winehouse's mother, Patsy Noah, Adam Levine's mother,

03:17:57 Speaker_01
Donna Haim, the mother of the Haim sisters, and Hester Diamond, of Mike D and the Beastie Boys' mother.

03:18:05 Speaker_01
So I think it was really striking and it was funny because you can still see interviews where the two of them were going around promoting this book when it came out back in 2017.

03:18:14 Speaker_01
But just in terms of it really was somebody with the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house that was very close to one of his parents and his mother specifically, but that it was very much also tied in with the home and living situation.

03:18:29 Speaker_03
Yeah, indeed. The other thing that occurs to me, Dave Grohl has Saturn at 19 Aries. We were just talking about someone else who's got Saturn at 19 Aries, Francis Ford Coppola, who had an eclipse on his Saturn just half a year ago.

03:18:45 Speaker_03
And yeah, without going into the nitty gritty of it, this is a rough eclipse period for the guy as well.

03:18:53 Speaker_01
Yeah. All right, so moving on to the next example. This is one that was sent in by a listener, and this is the birth chart of Selma Lagerlof, who was

03:19:12 Speaker_01
A really striking example is sent in by a listener on Twitter named Eva Christina F. This is the birth chart of a Swedish novel writer and playwright, and she was actually the first woman to win the Nobel Prize in Literature way back in 1909.

03:19:29 Speaker_01
So what's interesting about her story is that she was born and spent her childhood on this really nice family estate.

03:19:39 Speaker_01
The estate had this really rich history and was surrounded by this really natural beauty, and it's had a really profound impact on her imagination and shaped a lot of her early experiences that she would later incorporate into her work later as a writer.

03:19:56 Speaker_01
But when she was 13 years old, her father suffered a series of financial difficulties and was forced to sell the estate.

03:20:04 Speaker_01
This loss was experienced as this really devastating blow to the young Selma, and it left this really lasting impression on her as a young girl or as a teenager.

03:20:17 Speaker_01
So what's funny about her story is that many years later, after achieving literary success and winning the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1909, she was able to take the money from the Nobel Prize, and what she did is she repurchased the estate.

03:20:35 Speaker_01
So he repurchases her childhood and her family estate, and this was, in her biography, a triumphant moment for her, where she's able to make her return to her roots and to reclaim her family heritage.

03:20:50 Speaker_01
So after that point, she got really into restoration and preservation, where she dedicated herself to restoring the family estate and bringing it back to its former glory, essentially, because it had fallen into a state of disrepair.

03:21:06 Speaker_01
So she meticulously renovated the estate and preserved its historical character while also adding some of her own personal touches.

03:21:14 Speaker_01
So at this point, she ended up living at the estate the rest of her life and found solace and inspiration in its familiar surroundings.

03:21:24 Speaker_01
And eventually in her will, when she passed away, she stipulated that the estate had to be preserved as a memorial and open to the public. So today, it's actually a museum and a popular tourist destination in Sweden.

03:21:39 Speaker_01
And it offers visitors a glimpse into the life, as well as the work, of her as a really celebrated author in Sweden. So it's really cool.

03:21:48 Speaker_01
And it also appears in several of her literary works, where it often shows up as representing this sense of belonging, of tradition, and also creates a connection to her past.

03:22:02 Speaker_01
So it's like an enduring symbol basically of the power of home and its influence on especially her personal identity, which is a really important keyword because we're talking about the ruler of the Ascendant here in the 4th house.

03:22:16 Speaker_01
And that's why I really love this example because of the confluence between home and place and also personal identity through the ruler of the Ascendant.

03:22:28 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's a great story. I never heard of her, but her story is really interesting. I was reading about it before.

03:22:34 Speaker_01
Yeah. And I forgot to mention the placement. She has Leo rising with the sun in Scorpio in the fourth house. So that is that. Let's move on to the next example. It's a more contemporary example.

03:22:49 Speaker_01
This is the birth chart of Dua Lipa, who is, of course, a famous singer and musician at this point. She was born with Gemini rising with Mercury in Virgo in the fourth house in its own sign of Virgo.

03:23:08 Speaker_01
So what's interesting about her is that her parents are Albanians from Kosovo who immigrated due to the war in the 1990s, so she was actually born in London to refugee parents

03:23:25 Speaker_01
And she grew up there for the most part as a child, but then eventually once things started getting better, her parents returned to Kosovo when she was 11 years old.

03:23:38 Speaker_01
And while she went with them for a brief period of time, she ended up going back to the UK eventually.

03:23:44 Speaker_01
So later on, she ended up accepting Albanian citizenship when she became a famous singer, and her ancestry and her origins are actually very important to her.

03:23:54 Speaker_01
But that's one of the things that's funny about this example is you'll note that Mercury, the ruler of the Ascendant, it's in Virgo, which is a mutable sign.

03:24:02 Speaker_01
So remember, we were talking about mutable signs indicating two of whatever they indicate according to the ancient texts, and she has dual citizenship in both the UK, both Albanian citizenship and UK citizenship, which is really striking.

03:24:29 Speaker_01
If you listen to her work or if you read biographies about her, she really consistently emphasizes her pride in her heritage.

03:24:38 Speaker_01
Even though she was born and raised in London, her Albanian background has been really deeply influential in terms of her upbringing, in terms of her values, and in terms of her worldview.

03:24:48 Speaker_01
So one of the things that she does a lot of at this point is advocacy for Kosovo, and she's become a really vocal advocate for Kosovo, especially in terms of raising awareness about its history, about its culture, as well as about its ongoing challenges.

03:25:06 Speaker_01
So she tries to use her platform where she's becoming one of the most famous singers in the world to promote a better understanding and support for her homeland, essentially.

03:25:16 Speaker_01
So we're getting a lot of keywords about homeland, about heritage, about parents, where you're from, etc. Even though her music is predominantly pop music, you can still find some subtle influences of Balkan music in some of her songs.

03:25:33 Speaker_01
She's also collaborated with different artists from Kosovo and incorporated some Albanian lyrics into her work. So it's like you can see the cultural things coming into her actual work, which also represents the fourth house placement.

03:25:50 Speaker_01
Finally, go ahead.

03:25:52 Speaker_03
Oh, go ahead. My comment, obviously, I think any astrologer looking at this chart is it's so striking how many planets are in their own domicile. But I didn't mean to distract from your point. That's just sort of an exclamation. Please continue.

03:26:08 Speaker_01
Right, just that she has the Moon in Cancer, and it's domicile, and the Sun in Leo, and Jupiter in Sagittarius? Yeah, along with the Mercury in Virgo.

03:26:17 Speaker_03
So that's quite the setup.

03:26:19 Speaker_01
Yeah, it's quite the chart.

03:26:23 Speaker_03
The only other thing I was going to say is, it looks like she was born right when the war was happening. I wonder if her mother wasn't pregnant before leaving, if you know what I mean.

03:26:32 Speaker_03
I know she's born to refugees, but being born in August of 95 is so close to the war. I wonder if her mother didn't have to leave Kosovo while pregnant with her.

03:26:43 Speaker_01
CB Right. That's a really good question. I don't know the answer to that, but that would be worth checking out. One thing that happened that's really cool is that

03:26:52 Speaker_01
She started with her father a foundation called the Sunny Hill Foundation in Kosovo to support young people in the arts and culture there.

03:27:03 Speaker_01
I thought this was really cool because she did it together with her father, of course, having the ruler of the Ascendant there in the fourth and having something that both represents their homeland but also represents a connection with her father and her relationship with him.

03:27:16 Speaker_01
One last thing that's really funny, people that listen to the podcast and the forecast episodes will remember this from a year or so ago where she went back home for a visit at one point, I think to London. Actually, I'm not sure where it was.

03:27:30 Speaker_01
I don't know if she went back to London or she went back to Kosovo.

03:27:34 Speaker_01
she thought over the past few years that she had Libra rising, but one day she went back home for a visit and she must have found her birth certificate or a birth record or something like that because her actual birth time gave her Gemini rising.

03:27:49 Speaker_01
And what was funny about this at the time is that Mercury was actually retrograde in Virgo at the time, exactly conjoining the degree of her natal Mercury in Virgo.

03:27:59 Speaker_01
And at that point, she basically discovered through going back home her actual birth time and then posted about it online, asking people how this changed things so that it actually changed her perception of her identity, which is what the first house and the ruler actually indicates.

03:28:18 Speaker_01
So it's a great example of that, of how the ruler of the Ascetic can represent your understanding of yourself, but also how Mercury retrograde can sometimes cause you to revise things that you thought you knew about your past or about who you are.

03:28:34 Speaker_03
Right. It also strikes me, she just turned 29 two months ago, going into a Scorpio perfection year.

03:28:42 Speaker_03
But if this happened last year, was she in a Libra perfection year when she learned that she wasn't actually Libra rising, where she's got Mars in the North node? That's another sort of curious element to that story. It's a great story.

03:28:55 Speaker_03
I remember when that happened.

03:28:57 Speaker_01
Yeah, because I think it was September or something around about there of last year, which was 2024. Now it's 2024, so a year ago it was 2023 when she was 28, and she would have been in the Libra perfection year as of August 22nd, 2023.

03:29:16 Speaker_03
Okay. When Venus had been retrograde, like starting on her natal Sun Venus as well, just leading up to that, you know, her solar return would have had that as well. So it's an interesting time for that to happen.

03:29:29 Speaker_01
Yeah, and you know what happened the day that Venus stationed retrograde there at 28, 29 Leo, right on top of her son Venus conjunction at 28 Leo.

03:29:38 Speaker_01
That's the day the Barbie movie came out, and she was both in the Barbie movie, and she also did the lead single in the Barbie movie, not just the soundtrack, but also it was featured in the movie itself.

03:29:52 Speaker_01
So it was actually a really impressive Venus retrograde story.

03:29:55 Speaker_03
Yeah, because she's born at the flip side of that same Venus retrograde. She's born under what I call the blue five, the exterior conjunction of Sun-Venus in Leo, which occurs four years before and four years after the Venus retrograde in Leo.

03:30:09 Speaker_03
It's a partner part of the cycle. So that's interesting as well. As we've covered already on your show, that the whole Barbie movie was rife with that kind of Venus retrograde action going on with the

03:30:23 Speaker_03
the sinister of all the performers and what have you.

03:30:25 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, for sure. All right, so that's it for that example. The next one is a brief one. It's the singer Lorde. And Camille-Michelle Gray noticed this one and sent it in. So Lorde has Capricorn rising with Saturn and Aries in the 4th house.

03:30:44 Speaker_01
And one of the things that Camille pointed out was that Lorde's breakthrough song was Royals, which was this huge smash hit a decade ago at the start of her career. And the song is actually partially about where she lives and where she's from.

03:30:58 Speaker_01
And it has lyrics like, quote, I'm not proud of my address in a torn up town, no postcode envy. So the song is partially about not being royal, not coming from a royal lineage, not coming from money, and not having a fancy background.

03:31:17 Speaker_01
The whole song touches on themes of social class and inequality and all sorts of things like that, essentially suggesting the pursuit of wealth and status can be alienating and ultimately unfulfilling.

03:31:29 Speaker_01
One of the observations I made that was funny after Camille pointed that out is that Saturn's actually in Aries, which is the sign of its fall or depression.

03:31:37 Speaker_01
And that's a good demonstration of what fall means because exaltation often means when something's raised up and you get the highest version of whatever that thing is, whereas depression is the opposite.

03:31:51 Speaker_01
It's like when something is lowered and you get the lowest version of what something is, so not coming from a fancy royal lineage or not coming from a fancy town.

03:32:03 Speaker_03
Yeah. And then add the fact that the South Node is so close to that Saturn there as well, just I think adds to the emphasis on how that is felt.

03:32:15 Speaker_03
Some people can have very little and be okay with it, but just the sense that it's such an absence for her that she would write about it.

03:32:22 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. So the last two things that Camille noted is that the stage name Lorde comes from her fascination with aristocracy, which is associated with heredity and family.

03:32:36 Speaker_01
And then the last thing is also that she notoriously is very private, that she has a very small social media presence, she rarely attends Hollywood events, and she lives a relatively quote-unquote normal life.

03:32:49 Speaker_01
And that sense of privacy is a major topic that we'll get to later. And this is an early preview of that.

03:32:56 Speaker_03
Yeah. Although I'm personally convinced that she's really Randy Marsh on South Park, but that's a whole other story.

03:33:04 Speaker_01
Yeah. All right, so moving on to the next one is Drake.

03:33:12 Speaker_01
Drake is a famous rapper and music artist, and he has Leo rising, and the Sun in Scorpio, and the fourth whole sign house, along with the whole stellium in Scorpio, including Pluto, Venus, the icy, and Mercury.

03:33:30 Speaker_01
One of the things that's really interesting about him is he's one of the most successful rappers and musicians of the past decade, but one of the things that's interesting if you watch or read any biographies of him is that his home and his city are very important to him.

03:33:45 Speaker_01
He has a lot of pride in his hometown of Toronto and speaks about it a lot in his music. Additionally, he has this wildly extravagant and expensive mansion in Toronto that he refers to as the Embassy.

03:34:02 Speaker_01
And he's invested a lot of money into making it be essentially a reflection of both his success but also of his personality, which is where the ruler of the Ascendant part comes through.

03:34:16 Speaker_01
So he spent reportedly somewhere between $100 million to $180 million building this huge house. And

03:34:29 Speaker_01
In terms of the construction, the mansion is a completely custom-built masterpiece with luxurious features and really high-end finishes, which obviously would have significantly contributed to the cost.

03:34:43 Speaker_01
In terms of the interior design and furnishing, he basically spared no expense in furnishing this entire home with all these bespoke pieces and unique artwork. further adding to its overall investment.

03:34:55 Speaker_01
For him, he sees it as this symbol of his success, where the mansion represents the culmination of his hard work and his achievements in the music industry, so that it's a tangible symbol of his success, as well as a place where he can enjoy the fruits of his labor.

03:35:15 Speaker_01
But it's also in this interesting way, a reflection of his personal identity, because he was so involved in the design and the decor of his home, and he filled it with all these personal touches and items that reflect his interests and his passions.

03:35:31 Speaker_01
One of the things, of course, as a musician that's interesting about it is that he actually

03:35:37 Speaker_01
made sure he built a home recording studio there so that he can actually work from home, which is a theme that you'll see come up a number of times when either the ruler of the Ascendant or especially the ruler of the 10th or in the 4th, sometimes with 6th house connections as well, but the idea of working from home.

03:35:57 Speaker_01
Let's see, last thing. He said he wants his home to be a landmark in Toronto and a symbol of his love for his city.

03:36:05 Speaker_01
But of course, in the past year, a lot of that got reversed on its head because in the rap battle with Kendrick Lamar that happened earlier this year, one of the ways that Kendrick attacked Drake was to put a picture of his home on the cover of what became probably one of the most infamous diss tracks of all time.

03:36:26 Speaker_01
And by Kendrick attacking Drake in this way, by attacking his home in a way that he sort of attacked one of the things that was most important to him, which I think is really interesting for somebody with the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house and with Astellium in the fourth house.

03:36:43 Speaker_01
Yeah, yeah.

03:36:46 Speaker_03
Brutal. That whole thing. You can see how important it is to Drake. So yeah, to have that sort of become the target of something so infamous. Yeah, it's got to hurt. Yeah.

03:37:05 Speaker_03
My sense of it is that anyone who knows more than I do about this subject says Drake was the loser in that whole battle. I don't know if that's the absolute verdict on it.

03:37:16 Speaker_01
Yeah. I think that is definitely the wide perception and definitely it was

03:37:24 Speaker_01
Yeah, it didn't go super well for him, but it's interesting that his home became such a focal point of the entire thing, just with that being such a prominent thing in his chart. Yeah. Moving on, the next example is Julia Child.

03:37:40 Speaker_01
A few different people sent this in, but Camille Michelle Gray worked on it the most, where Julia Child was a famous homemaker on television who wrote cookbooks that became wildly successful.

03:37:56 Speaker_01
And Julia Child had Gemini rising with Mercury in Virgo, retrograde conjunct Venus in the fourth house, and co-present with Mars in a night chart.

03:38:08 Speaker_01
And what's super interesting about her is that her cookbooks, especially her book Mastering the Art of French Cooking, had this profound and really lasting impact on households and on housewives in the United States, where prior to Julia Child, French cooking was often seen as intimidating and

03:38:28 Speaker_01
inaccessible to the average American home cook.

03:38:32 Speaker_01
But when she published her cookbook afterwards with these really clear instructions and really detailed explanations, which is very Virgo, it basically suddenly made French cuisine approachable and achievable for everyday cooks at home.

03:38:48 Speaker_01
which was a huge turning point that really elevated home cooking, which is interesting in terms of it being Mercury being in the sign of its exaltation, so literally being elevated or raising things up to a higher level.

03:39:01 Speaker_03
Yeah. I think of Virgo being the sign of all the fine things in life, if you will. Virgo wants the gourmet food and the classical master artists on the wall and just the best of everything.

03:39:19 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. The bespoke things as well. So she really emphasized the importance of using fresh ingredients and mastering fundamental techniques.

03:39:29 Speaker_01
And this really encouraged housewives to take pride in their cooking and to view it as more than just a chore. So what was interesting is that this is also part of, in the 1970s to some extent,

03:39:42 Speaker_01
part of the emphasis was also in empowering women, where women's roles were often confined to the domestic sphere.

03:39:50 Speaker_01
And Julia Child provided this really powerful example of a woman who was passionate and knowledgeable and successful in a field that was traditionally dominated by men, because men, especially in terms of professional chefs, were often the ones that were really dominating that field.

03:40:07 Speaker_01
So in doing that, she inspired women to explore their culinary creativity and also to embrace their role in the kitchen in a way that elevated it much more.

03:40:20 Speaker_03
Yeah. I only have vague memories of her being on television, but she certainly, even just in the world of TV, which is usually, you know, sort of lower, you know, lowbrow entertainment, I suppose.

03:40:37 Speaker_03
She just, she had this real sort of air of class and dignity, but not in a haughty way, in a very approachable way. Almost like anyone who watched her show was elevated with her to some higher plane of awareness or existence, if you will.

03:40:56 Speaker_01
Yeah, that was actually one of the points Camille made.

03:40:58 Speaker_01
With Mercury being retrograde, she had this really distinctive voice, but also all of her mistakes or any blunders that she made often made it into the broadcast of her cook shows, which made her more relatable to people at home. Yeah.

03:41:14 Speaker_01
So I just thought it was a cool example because her life's work was primarily consumed by people when they were at home using television and cookbooks.

03:41:22 Speaker_01
And that was really the thrust of what Camille pointed out with this example that I thought was so good when you think about the fourth house as having to do with homemaking, but also sometimes with things like cooking very, very explicitly.

03:41:37 Speaker_01
And we'll see another example of that with the famous chef later on. Yeah.

03:41:42 Speaker_01
Last point, the only other thing Camille pointed out was that before she became famous cooking, one of the things that was interesting is that she was actually involved in the Office of Strategic – in espionage.

03:41:57 Speaker_01
in previous decades before that, where one of the things, for example, that she was tasked with was registering, cataloging, and channeling a great volume of highly classified documents and communications for clandestine operations.

03:42:13 Speaker_01
This is an early preview of another major fourth house theme, which is secrecy and secretive actions or covert actions that are taken because the fourth house is the most hidden place in the chart.

03:42:26 Speaker_01
Also, it's just a good example that sometimes different meanings of the fourth house can manifest at different times in a person's life.

03:42:36 Speaker_03
Yeah, I'd heard that about her being a spy. What a great sort of cover for someone doing that kind of work, because she's the last person you would suspect. She's not James Bond.

03:42:49 Speaker_01
Right. The cook is always the last person you suspect until they like karate chop you and you're knocked out. That's right. Exactly. Child, Julia Child. All right, so moving on to our next example.

03:43:05 Speaker_01
Our next example is Charles E. Dietrich, who became eventually a cult leader.

03:43:13 Speaker_01
And this is one that Camille found as well, where Charles Dietrich had Aquarius rising and the ruler of the Ascendant is Saturn, which is placed in Taurus in the fourth whole sign house in a night chart, and it's co-present with the Venus, which is also in Taurus.

03:43:32 Speaker_01
So he founded an organization called Synanon, which was this controversial organization which actually began as a rehabilitation program in California in 1958, but it gradually evolved into a cult-like community where there was authoritarian leadership and really questionable practices, basically.

03:43:56 Speaker_01
So eventually, it became a self-sustained community with people living and working and going to school all on the Synanon campus, and it almost became a communal living experiment of some sort.

03:44:11 Speaker_01
So he was a recovering alcoholic, and initially, Synanon gained recognition and success for its unconventional approach to treating addiction

03:44:21 Speaker_01
where it emphasized group therapy sessions, known as the game, where members engaged in these intense verbal confrontations and in self-criticism. Eventually it became a community, a commune, and everyone started living together.

03:44:36 Speaker_01
It had this diverse following, including celebrities and intellectuals who were drawn to the communal living and the promise of personal transformation, but eventually it transformed basically into a cult.

03:44:49 Speaker_01
Over time, the focus shifted from rehabilitation to social engineering,

03:44:54 Speaker_01
and Dietrich became increasingly authoritarian and started demanding absolute loyalty and obedience from its members so that it became increasingly isolated from the outside world and eventually started operating completely self-sufficiently with its own businesses and schools.

03:45:12 Speaker_01
So we're talking about a whole town here, basically.

03:45:18 Speaker_01
Eventually, in the 1970s, they started facing mounting legal troubles as well as public scrutiny, and Diedrich and other leaders were implicated in various crimes, including tax evasion, assault, and attempted murder.

03:45:31 Speaker_01
The organization's reputation plummeted and its membership basically dwindled. Eventually, by 1991, the organization disbanded following a series of criminal convictions and financial scandals. Okay. So there we go.

03:45:48 Speaker_01
Cult leader creating a community, but having the ruler of the Ascendant be Saturn in a night chart in the fourth house.

03:45:55 Speaker_03
Right. The other thing, the Saturn's co-present with Venus and Taurus, but that's a Venus and Taurus that's about to go retrograde. So it's a Venus and Taurus that's moving very slow and has a lot more power than you would expect.

03:46:07 Speaker_03
It's not some innocent little pleasant Venus there. It's got some gravitas. It's probably moving slower than that Saturn or at the same speed possibly. And yeah, this is the scandal of things, which is what Venus retrograde often provokes.

03:46:28 Speaker_03
Venus retrograde is about testing the rules, testing the boundaries of what is or is not socially acceptable.

03:46:37 Speaker_03
So, something like this type of communal living during this era and with the specific sort of idiosyncrasies of his community, I think that's really interesting.

03:46:50 Speaker_01
Yeah. It's also about doing things differently and sometimes going against the grain and probably

03:46:56 Speaker_01
Part of the initial allure was setting up a new type of intentional community that's different and is probably seen as progressive initially before it became this authoritarian nightmare. Right, right.

03:47:09 Speaker_03
Of course, he was born during a total lunar eclipse. We can't ignore that. But yeah, so much of what you described, I certainly see the Saturn in there, but also co-present with that Venus being squared by the Uranus and Mars in the first.

03:47:22 Speaker_03
It's quite the picture. You can see how things sometimes worked and sometimes they didn't.

03:47:28 Speaker_01
Yeah, that's a good point. A total lunar eclipse in the 9th house of religion and belief and philosophy. And that Moon is coming off of a square with Pluto out of sign, but just two or three degrees away.

03:47:41 Speaker_01
Mars is right on the Ascendant, and it's squaring Saturn, and the Ascendant itself is also squaring Saturn. So there's definitely some stuff going on there. Yeah. Good times. I'd like to read more about him. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

03:47:56 Speaker_01
So moving on, my next example is George R.R. Martin. And this is one where I started researching and it came up in my files as having the Ruler of the Ascendant there.

03:48:05 Speaker_01
I didn't initially know why because I didn't know a lot about his biography aside from that he's a famous writer at this point and he's the author of the Game of Thrones books, which eventually became the successful HBO television series.

03:48:20 Speaker_01
but he was born with Taurus rising and Venus in Leo in the 4th whole sign house. As a writer, one of the things I realized eventually, I was reading his blog and he talks about working from home and calling it his fortress of solitude.

03:48:37 Speaker_01
which I thought was a really interesting phrase.

03:48:39 Speaker_01
And so as a writer, that's one of the things that appealed to him is that not just that he could work from home, but he realized at a certain point that once he became a writer, he said in one interview, he said that he appreciated that once he became a writer, that he could work from home and live anywhere he wanted.

03:48:57 Speaker_01
So at one point in his life in 1979 and 1980, he ended up moving to Santa Fe, New Mexico,

03:49:03 Speaker_01
and he became not just a longtime resident of Santa Fe, but also a local fixture there who's influenced the community there to a significant degree or to a notable degree. This is an example of somebody where

03:49:19 Speaker_01
through the transits to his 4th house, you can literally see him discover the place that he would fall in love with.

03:49:29 Speaker_01
He originally discovered Santa Fe as he was traveling across the country with his partner at the time to a sci-fi convention, and they passed through there, and then all of a sudden, just fell in love with this

03:49:42 Speaker_01
quirky little southwestern town, basically. And what was happening is that Jupiter was transiting through Leo, so it's going through his fourth whole sign house.

03:49:51 Speaker_01
But also, more importantly, eclipses were taking place in that two- or three-year period through Leo and through his fourth house when he discovers this place, falls in love with it, and decides that he's going to move there.

03:50:07 Speaker_01
So he's become a local fixture, and he's also invested a lot in the local cultural landscape of Santa Fe by contributing especially to the arts and the film scene in a really significant way. I think that's funny because it's like Venus in Leo, and

03:50:23 Speaker_01
One of the things that he did is there was a local cinema there, which was a historic single-screen movie theater that was in danger of closing down.

03:50:33 Speaker_01
And then in 2013, he stepped in and purchased it, and then renovated it and reopened it, where now it showcases independent films and classic movies and special events. He even sometimes hosts personal appearances and book signings there.

03:50:52 Speaker_01
He later opened a bookstore next to the theater, and then he's also really into the arts. I found one quote from somebody who said, quote, his support of the arts community has had serious, real impact in Santa Fe.

03:51:05 Speaker_01
One of the things that he supported was what was initially a local art installation called Meow-Wool. which, while it was not solely owned by him, he was a really crucial early investor in this.

03:51:18 Speaker_01
It's like this really immersive art experience where it's a collection of artists who create interactive and fantastical exhibits, and it's become a major tourist attraction at this point in Santa Fe.

03:51:31 Speaker_01
so he's really been influential in the local art community. He also attempted at one point, unfortunately, to build a castle-like library on his residential property, but the city ended up

03:51:44 Speaker_01
scuttling it basically and denied his plans due to zoning restrictions because they have strict restrictions about the appearance of things. He was literally trying to build a medieval castle in the middle of this city. Yeah, it's pretty funny.

03:52:00 Speaker_01
Later, he actually married his longtime partner of 20 or 30 years in a small ceremony at home, which I thought was funny. With the ruler of the Ascendant, is Venus, getting married at home is a pretty striking thing that not everybody does. Right.

03:52:16 Speaker_03
When Jupiter was in Leo in 1979, which I guess is when he found Santa Fe, I'm curious if it was during the summer, because the August of 1979 had a very

03:52:40 Speaker_03
August of 1979 had a very peculiar arrangement where you had the sun being surrounded by Venus and Jupiter, like a triple conjunction of Venus, Sun, Jupiter in Leo, in that fourth house of his, which is especially abundant and very Leo friendly.

03:53:03 Speaker_03
So I'm curious if it was right around that summer that he found Santa Fe, but maybe I'll have to look into it myself. In the summer of 79 you mean? Yeah. What was the dates you gave again? It's about August, August of 79. Okay.

03:53:20 Speaker_03
So just before he turned 31.

03:53:22 Speaker_01
Yeah, I don't have all of that. I have a bunch of additional notes, but I don't have all the dates. Okay. I might look into it sometime. Yeah, it would be worth it. It's kind of an interesting example.

03:53:34 Speaker_01
One last thing I was thinking about with respect to his creative output is the thing he's best known for at this point is Game of Thrones, where one of the things he did is he created this whole alternative world called Westeros.

03:53:50 Speaker_01
There may be something to the fact that one of the things he did is he created this entire fictional land in his head.

03:53:56 Speaker_01
One of the things that he did that he's really unique for in doing that is he established its geography in great detail, as well as its history, and he really focused on developing this theme of family lineages.

03:54:10 Speaker_01
It's this major, major theme in Game of Thrones where you have these different houses and these different families and family lineages, and this plays a really crucial role in the story, in essentially the conflict and the competition between these different

03:54:27 Speaker_01
family houses and different family lineages, as well as sometimes conflict between father and son and different things like that. So there's something even about his creative output. He's kind of like J.R.R. Tolkien in a way in that sense.

03:54:43 Speaker_01
If you think of the map that's so detailed from Lord of the Rings,

03:54:49 Speaker_01
Martin basically did a version of that that's even larger and more detailed, in which he wrote this huge history and backstory for almost every single house and character and family line.

03:55:01 Speaker_01
It's one of the other things where it shows up not just in his personal life, but also in his creative output.

03:55:07 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, it is so common. You find, you know, an artist's work in their chart. And yeah, what you describe really does match that Venus-Pluto in the fourth.

03:55:19 Speaker_03
You know, Venus along in the fourth would be sort of pleasant and royal, but you get Pluto there and then things become more a matter of life and death and more involved in power struggles and corruption and, you know, all the things that I know take place over the course of that story.

03:55:34 Speaker_01
Actually, that's really funny that you say that because it actually makes me think of something else, which is that one of the things he's most infamous for is this one event in his series called the Red Wedding, which he partially based off of earlier history, an event that occurred in earlier English history.

03:55:54 Speaker_01
So his study of history is actually probably part of what we're seeing with the ruler of the Ascendant. But in this one historical example.

03:56:03 Speaker_01
Broadly speaking, it was about inviting one family, inviting another family into their home for a wedding, but then murdering them, basically.

03:56:13 Speaker_01
So that's funny because it's actually reminiscent of what we're looking at here with the ruler of the Ascendant as Venus conjunct Pluto in the fourth house. Come to a nice wedding. You'll have a nice time. Right, exactly.

03:56:28 Speaker_01
Mars is there in the seventh house and Scorpio squaring the Venus-Pluto. Might be something to that. I don't know. Game of Thrones fans can let me know in the comments. Right.

03:56:38 Speaker_03
It sounds like he might have been inspired by the St. Bartholomew Day Massacre in France when there was a royal wedding. and a lot of the Protestants came to attend the wedding, and then they were massacred by Catholics.

03:56:51 Speaker_03
It might be something like that, or maybe it's some other reference.

03:56:56 Speaker_01
I thought it was from English history, but maybe you're right. Maybe it is that one.

03:57:00 Speaker_03
Yeah. It might've happened in England too. It's a good ploy.

03:57:06 Speaker_01
Right.

03:57:07 Speaker_03
Keep the old classics working.

03:57:09 Speaker_01
For sure. All right. So moving on, the next story is, the next example is one that was found by Lindsay Turner and who sent this in and it's for a woman named Joan Ganz Cooney,

03:57:24 Speaker_01
who, as you can see in the chart, was born with Virgo rising and Mercury in Sagittarius in the fourth whole sign house, along with the degree of the IC and Mars and the Sun, which are all in Sagittarius in the fourth.

03:57:40 Speaker_01
She is basically the co-creator of Sesame Street and is also a TV writer and a producer. She has a mutual reception between the ruler of the fourth house of home and the 10th house of career.

03:57:54 Speaker_01
because Jupiter, the ruler of the fourth, is up there in Gemini in the 10th house, conjunct the Midheaven. And what's interesting is that the idea for Sesame Street was reportedly first imagined during a dinner party at her home. And

03:58:13 Speaker_01
She was raised very conventionally, but was always pulled towards civil rights and social justice issues. Her father died by suicide in 1956, the year that she turned 27, which was actually a fourth house perfection year.

03:58:26 Speaker_01
And we'll get into 27 and the 27 Club later and how important that is as a fourth house perfection year. But Lindsay found this quote where she said, quote, I knew that I was born to be in education television. It was St. Paul on the highway.

03:58:49 Speaker_01
One of the things you have to remember, I was watching this little documentary about this a few days ago, but when she first pitched this idea essentially for Sesame Street, the idea of educating children through television was a new idea.

03:59:05 Speaker_01
And what she was seeing at that time period from the 50s and the 60s was that children were starting to repeat commercials that were being played on television.

03:59:19 Speaker_01
and they were starting to repeat some of the songs from them and different things like that that they were internalizing after watching them on television, which was still a new medium.

03:59:28 Speaker_01
She got really fixated on this idea of using television in order to educate kids at home.

03:59:36 Speaker_01
So she helped to raise $8 million to produce Sesame Street, and then she ended up becoming one of the first female TV executives in American history after she successfully launched this.

03:59:49 Speaker_01
It became basically a mainstay of American homes and televisions that

03:59:55 Speaker_01
just millions of kids grew up with over the past several decades and still continue to, because Sesame Street is still a really common thing where people can turn it on and you can learn to count or do other things.

04:00:09 Speaker_03
Yeah. Might I add, it was also very influential for Canadian kids, although because Americans and Canadians pronounce the word Zed or Zee differently, I was always admonished to not listen to that part of the show.

04:00:20 Speaker_03
If it was the episode brought to you by the letter Z as a Canadian, I was supposed to disregard that. But other than that, I think instrumental in my knowing how to read and write before I even got to school,

04:00:32 Speaker_03
And, I mean, just a brilliant show and so entertaining. But you can really also fathom. This is another great example of that mutual reception of hers because the show is very, I mean, it's, it's, it depicts what should be what you imagine to be

04:00:48 Speaker_03
a fairly working class neighborhood in New York. That's how I see the Sesame Street set. It's not supposed to be some friendly white picket fence. It's your local neighborhood, if you're a city person.

04:01:03 Speaker_03
I forget the guy who works in the grocery store, whose name I should remember. It was a very neighborhood feel, but a very working class neighborhood feel and wonderfully diverse. So yeah, they weren't presenting white picket fence America.

04:01:22 Speaker_03
In fact, they were broadcasting into white picket fence America, some sort of child's version of the other America, I think, which was a really interesting component to it.

04:01:36 Speaker_01
But also, there was clearly an element from the beginning about diversity and inclusion and education.

04:01:46 Speaker_01
One of the things that Lindsay says is just that with Sagittarius and the Fourth, that she brought a world of education, of philosophies and ideals right into the homes of millions of children.

04:01:57 Speaker_01
and that with that mutual reception between Mercury and Sag and Jupiter and Gemini, even though they're in the signs of their detriment or their exile, because they have that mutual reception that's strengthening both of them.

04:02:10 Speaker_01
Lindsay's point was that it sort of testifies to her ability to dream about an unlikely resource that could support children's literacy

04:02:19 Speaker_01
while also having big dreams herself in some ways of television and working in a way that also creates social change at the same time.

04:02:27 Speaker_01
It's a really cool example for that reason where you can see the personal connection with the fourth house, but this is another one of those examples where you see somebody's chart acting globally or universally in some sense that she's affecting

04:02:42 Speaker_01
millions of households as well, not just in the US, but also around the world. I forgot that Sesame Street was also localized in a bunch of different countries and different languages as well.

04:02:53 Speaker_03
Yeah. In Montreal, you would have a French portion of the show that I'm sure you weren't getting in the US. That's absolutely right. It encouraged multilingualism.

04:03:05 Speaker_03
I'm pretty sure the American version had Spanish immersion in it, included with the English education.

04:03:12 Speaker_01
CB Yeah. That's an interesting aspect of it then as well in terms of Sagittarius and stuff.

04:03:22 Speaker_03
And in my database, I happen to have the charts for the first taping and the first broadcast debut of Sesame Street, because I've studied Jim Henson's chart in the past.

04:03:33 Speaker_03
And funny enough, wouldn't you know that she was 39 years old when Sesame Street was first taped on October 21st, 1969, and when it first debuted on TV on November 10th, 1969.

04:03:48 Speaker_03
So she was in a Sagittarius Perfection year when the show was first broadcast. So we're seeing that fourth house really central for her that year as well.

04:04:00 Speaker_01
Nice. So her fourth house was actually activated?

04:04:04 Speaker_03
Her fourth house was activated, but furthermore, because it's 1969, we happen to know leading up to the making, the show was taped October 21st, but obviously she would have spent a lot of 1969 putting the whole show together.

04:04:19 Speaker_03
And it was in the spring of 1969 that there was a big Mars retrograde in Sagittarius while she's in a Sagittarius perfection year. And obviously her son's very connected to that Mars.

04:04:29 Speaker_03
So even though I don't know the details of, you know, whatever ups and downs she needed, you know, a TV producer always has to put out a million fires, if you will, and they're still putting everything together. But I can just anticipate

04:04:41 Speaker_03
leading up to the taping of the show in October, that most likely that Mars retrograde transit in Sagittarius over the spring and summer of 1969 would tell us a lot if we were to follow her life as she was developing the show and getting it on air.

04:04:58 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. Nice. Nice. Good work. All right, so that is that one. And then my last example in this section is the birth chart of the United Nations. We actually have a time birth chart.

04:05:12 Speaker_01
This is from Nick Campion's Book of World Horoscopes, where we actually have the specific time when the United Nations came into being October 24th, 1945 at 4.45 PM in Washington, DC.

04:05:26 Speaker_01
And that chart has Aries rising and Mars in Cancer in the fourth whole sign house, where it's conjunct Saturn, it's co-present with the IC as well as the North Node.

04:05:38 Speaker_01
And I just think it's so funny and so interesting that the chart for the United Nations, which is really about all these different countries and nations coming together,

04:05:47 Speaker_01
has the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house that represents one's home, but also more broadly, one's country, one's origins.

04:05:56 Speaker_01
And it's a bunch of different countries coming together and attempting to hopefully do peace deals or reconcile things because it was formed in the aftermath of World War II and with the desire to never let something like that happen again.

04:06:11 Speaker_01
So it's interesting that you have both the focus on the 4th house. Obviously, you can also see some of the difficulties since it's like a Mars-Saturn conjunction, the 4th house.

04:06:23 Speaker_01
But that being said, it's also a Venus-Jupiter conjunction, which is in Libra. Venus is at 7 degrees of Libra, Jupiter's at 12 degrees of Libra in the 7th house of other people.

04:06:34 Speaker_01
It is conjunct Neptune, so there's a certain amount of idealism to it, obviously. But you have both the good things as well as some of the challenging things which come with that organization.

04:06:45 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, that's what I was thinking when I'm looking at the chart.

04:06:48 Speaker_03
I'm thinking like, if this was the chart of a human being, I would think this was someone who grew up with a lot of arguing and fighting in the household, precisely because you got both Mars and Saturn in the fourth. It looks like... October of 1945.

04:07:02 Speaker_03
Right, right. It looks like a home, you know, like a home where, you know, everyone's arguing, which is, you know, largely what the place is about. You know, you need to have everyone in one room arguing things out so they're not killing each other.

04:07:17 Speaker_03
And once in a while, you know, it actually works out that way. So yeah, I mean, it's wonderful how, I mean, it's such a spot on chart, isn't it? You're right. I mean, the Venus, Jupiter and the Mars, Saturn, it's all those things. CB Yeah.

04:07:31 Speaker_01
I used it in the third house example, sort of an example of that moon-Uranus conjunction in the third house.

04:07:37 Speaker_01
And I just think of that singular room where all the different nations are connected and each of the representatives is wearing an earpiece and they're hearing the other representatives be translated in real time in order to communicate with each other.

04:07:50 Speaker_01
And there's something really striking about that image as well. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

04:07:54 Speaker_03
You're absolutely right. Once again, that Mars in Cancer is slowing down to a retrograde. The United Nations would get a progressed Mars retrograde station in 1986, so make of that what you will.

04:08:06 Speaker_03
But it's another instance where that Mars isn't just Mars, it's a Mars that's possibly moving slower than the Saturn, or if it's not, it soon will be.

04:08:16 Speaker_03
And I maintain that's always an important consideration, especially at looking at a chart like this where, you know, you see a Mars Saturn conjunction and, you know, instinctively intuitively you think of, you know, Saturn being the dominating body in that combination because typically it's the slower planet.

04:08:35 Speaker_03
And usually that's the case but that might not be the case here and that might be the difference between, you know, Mars having more cloud than the Saturn in this particular case obviously neither of them is strong in cancer, but but just by virtue of the speed of a planet the slower planet is the more

04:08:53 Speaker_03
power it has as well. So that can be the case with that chart.

04:08:56 Speaker_03
And it's the kind of thing where, again, it really helps to have a sense of the movement of the planets, because that'll inform you in some way that simply seeing a planet in a given sign won't on its own.

04:09:07 Speaker_01
CB Right. Yeah. I mean, also just the sect of the chart since it's a day chart. And so you get the tricky situation that comes up in nativities where

04:09:19 Speaker_01
If according to sect, the most challenging planet in the chart is the ruler of the Ascendant, then sometimes the issues in the person's life come from within in some way.

04:09:28 Speaker_01
And for the United Nations, it would be that somehow some of the issues come from within or come from what it is on some essential level or something like that. based on its actions or based on what it's about. So I don't know.

04:09:44 Speaker_01
We don't have to get further into that. This is really sort of a little far afield, but yeah, that's actually... That's a good one, actually. I like it. Yeah, it's a really interesting chart to look into.

04:09:54 Speaker_01
We should talk about the NATO chart when we get to the 8th house episode. That's another one. Okay. All right. So that is actually the end of this section on the home and living situation. So why don't we take a little break?

04:10:07 Speaker_01
If you'd like to learn more about my approach to astrology, then you should get a copy of my book titled Hellenistic Astrology, the Study of Fate and Fortune, which is available in both print and now ebook forms, where I've started selling a PDF copy of the book through my website at hellenisticastrology.com book.

04:10:26 Speaker_01
Alright, so now we're going to transition into the next section where we're going to talk about the topic of secrecy and the private life and things that are secret or concealed or covert, which is a major area of the fourth house that's much more present in ancient astrology and traditional astrology, but kind of dropped out to some extent in the modern astrological tradition.

04:10:48 Speaker_01
But it's one that came through very strongly in my research, so I wanted to have a whole segment on it to talk about some prominent examples of this. My first example is the actress Greta Garbo, and this was sent in to me by a few people.

04:11:06 Speaker_01
I didn't know a lot about her, but I was really fascinated once I started learning more. She was born with Gemini rising, and the ruler of the Ascendant is Mercury, which is placed in Virgo in the fourth whole sign house.

04:11:21 Speaker_01
So Greta Garbo was an early Hollywood film star who was notoriously private, mysterious, and reclusive. And also, shout out, the first person who sent this in to me was on Twitter.

04:11:35 Speaker_01
It was Medusa Alamode, and then Nick also did a bunch of work on this one as well. So she's just known as this notoriously private, mysterious, and reclusive actress,

04:11:47 Speaker_01
And she started in silent films, but then eventually she transitioned into talking films. Right, Nick? Yeah. Yeah. And that was a big deal.

04:11:55 Speaker_03
She was actually, she made the most silent films after the advent of talkies of anyone else. Like she and Chaplin were seen as the last holdouts of converting to talkies.

04:12:09 Speaker_03
And yeah, so she was very much a silent movie star, but when she did move to talkies, it worked out and the transits are fascinating. I can't wait to talk about it, but please continue. We'll get there.

04:12:20 Speaker_01
Nice. I was watching an A&E biography on her, and I laughed because the very opening line says, Garbo, divine, mysterious, reclusive.

04:12:33 Speaker_01
That really made me laugh because I was watching it with this in mind of the ruler of the Ascendants in the 4th house.

04:12:39 Speaker_01
I remembered that one of those is a keyword going all the way back to Valens where he talks about the 4th house pertaining to the mysteries. So Garbo was born in Sweden, and she ended up coming to America to work in Hollywood.

04:12:55 Speaker_01
Early on in her life, while she was still in Sweden, she ended up having to leave school at age 13 to take care of her father after he got sick. But then sadly, he still died two years later when she was only 15 years old.

04:13:10 Speaker_03
It was three months before her 15th birthday that he died, but yeah, close enough.

04:13:16 Speaker_01
Close, close enough.

04:13:19 Speaker_01
Eventually she started acting and she ended up moving to America and eventually became a successful actress, but she had this really cool facade so that nobody really guessed what was underneath is one of the comments that I often read and heard.

04:13:38 Speaker_01
So she made very limited public appearances and she rarely attended public events, premieres, or award ceremonies, and she famously avoided the spotlight and basically shunned publicity.

04:13:49 Speaker_01
One of the points that was really funny that I read was that she gave minimal interviews, even though she was a famous Hollywood actress, And she almost never gave interviews, and she was known for her reluctance to engage with the press.

04:14:05 Speaker_01
But what was funny about this is that this only fueled the curiosity and the speculation about her personal life. And what I thought was funny is that the studios evidently were fine with this. Instead of being against it and sort of like,

04:14:21 Speaker_01
mad that their big Hollywood star wasn't doing interviews, they realized that it was actually creating a deeper aura of mystery surrounding her. So they were like, that's fine, go nuts, which is a funny reaction to have.

04:14:34 Speaker_03
Yeah. At first they did, but it was Louis B. Mayer who was the captain interference when it came to the studio bosses. At first, he was upset that she wouldn't talk until he realized that it was an asset and then he relented.

04:14:52 Speaker_03
But yeah, she gave him a lot of trouble in a lot of ways, which maybe we'll get to.

04:14:58 Speaker_01
Yeah. So after she got famous, she ended up renegotiating her contract.

04:15:02 Speaker_01
One of the things that she did in renegotiating her contract is she made sure to include a provision that allowed her to go back home to visit Sweden because she became really homesick.

04:15:14 Speaker_01
So during the course of World War II, she actually ended up investing wisely during the war, which resulted in her not having to work for a large part for the rest of her life.

04:15:25 Speaker_01
Some of what she invested in wisely were property investments, which I thought was really interesting.

04:15:31 Speaker_01
So she ended up retiring from acting at the relatively young age of 35, and then at that point, she just further withdraws from the public eye, which adds to her mystique and her mystery and legacy.

04:15:45 Speaker_01
She had a very secretive personal life where she was very guarded about her personal life and relationships, and she never ended up marrying or having children and kept a very small social circle.

04:15:57 Speaker_01
And the last thing I have is just that she had this famous line that was quoted or attributed to her, which was, quote, I want to be led alone.

04:16:10 Speaker_01
It's often misquoted as, I want to be alone, but it was actually, I want to be let alone, which had a subtle but important distinction.

04:16:19 Speaker_01
But it became associated with her and it reinforced her image as this recluse who really valued her privacy above all else.

04:16:28 Speaker_01
And I really love that as a ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house and the most hidden and private part of the chart example.

04:16:36 Speaker_03
Yeah, no, it's a great one. It's true. In Grand Hotel, she does say, I want to be let alone, and that sort of sets the tone, but it winds up being a line that she repeats in other movies as well.

04:16:46 Speaker_03
It almost becomes like a parody, like people want to hear her say it. It's like Arnold's, I'll be back. Yeah, no, it becomes like that or, you know, Dave Chappelle and, you know, I'm Rick James, etc, etc.

04:17:03 Speaker_03
Just like, you know, it's like that line became too popular for my liking kind of thing. So, yeah, her chart is fascinating. The transits are amazing.

04:17:13 Speaker_03
I always think of Neptune's ingress into Virgo, it's pretty much in sync with when movies went from silent to talking.

04:17:21 Speaker_03
But what it's even more in sync with that, because technically the first talking movie was The Jazz Singer in 1927, when Neptune was still in Leo. But when Neptune goes into Virgo in 1929, that's exactly when she records her first sound film.

04:17:37 Speaker_03
And no one's even sure, because she's Swedish, no one is sure.

04:17:40 Speaker_03
A lot of movie careers ended when the sound era came about, because you had a lot of these European actors who had really thick accents and they were fine in silent film, but suddenly they couldn't get work.

04:17:52 Speaker_03
And there was that concern for Greta Garbo as well, but it turned out, no, she worked on her English apparently. And, you know, they found her speaking voice was okay.

04:18:03 Speaker_03
It was literally a national headline, Garbo talks okay, you know, just like reassuring people that she would be in sound films.

04:18:09 Speaker_03
And that really is the advent of Neptune going into Mercury is when she starts making talky films, which like I said, she was something of a holdout on that. So there's that element, and that is when Neptune makes its ingress into Virgo.

04:18:25 Speaker_03
And then so much of the story that follows has a lot to do with that Neptune transit through Virgo. Now, she turns 27 in 1932. And what happens is just before that birthday, just before her 27th birthday, like barely how many days,

04:18:45 Speaker_03
two weeks, just over two to three weeks before her 27th birthday, there is a total solar eclipse at eight degrees Virgo conjunct Neptune. So it's a total solar eclipse with Neptune on that natal Mercury of hers. So what happens?

04:19:00 Speaker_03
She goes back to Sweden. Like you said, she's just renegotiated her contract again. She did two renegotiations. One was back in 26 when she first became a star that gave her a little more freedom and money.

04:19:12 Speaker_03
But this is the one where she really argues for total power. And she gets the studio to agree that she makes one movie a year for the next two years. And the rest of the time, she can go do what she wants. So she goes back to Sweden.

04:19:27 Speaker_03
This eclipse is right on her mercury. She spends time she reconnects with an old lover that she knew 12 years earlier when she was in her previous fourth house perfection year.

04:19:38 Speaker_03
But she also she makes a couple of like secret trips to like she's hanging out in Sweden with her family and lovers and what have you.

04:19:46 Speaker_03
She goes with a friend for a quick trip to Paris and London, and she wants to sort of like, you know, do some sightseeing incognito. And she wears like this, apparently she wears like a really obvious disguise, like these weird sunglasses and a wig.

04:20:01 Speaker_03
She kind of like stands out even though she's trying to blend. And in both cities, she's noticed at the hotel she's staying in, and, you know, sort of paparazzi fan frenzy starts, you know, the big crowds outside her hotel room.

04:20:15 Speaker_03
And this is Miss, you know, Mercury and Virgo in the fourth house. She really doesn't want it. But the funniest thing is she's, so she also, she goes back to Sweden. She's all distressed about how crazy the fans were.

04:20:29 Speaker_03
While she's in Sweden, she's researching her next role, which is to play Queen Christina, a queen of Sweden who had ruled back in the 17th century. So she's going back to all these old like castles and Swedish, you know, historical,

04:20:45 Speaker_03
landmarks that are related to Queen Christine as she's researching the role. And ultimately, she comes back to America and makes the movie, and she's still filming the movie while she turns 28. Just before she turns 28, there's another solar eclipse.

04:21:03 Speaker_03
This one's at 27 Leo on Regulus, opposite or Saturn close to her north node. And of course, she's playing a queen and that's a royal star. So I just, I found her, you know, you can go into even greater detail, I'll spare you with that.

04:21:17 Speaker_03
But just like the, you know, too long didn't read of all this is, first of all, when she turned 15 in 1920, that's when she made her very first film, it was an advertising film for a department store she worked in.

04:21:32 Speaker_03
And she started a love affair that would break up in a year, but then 12 years later, when she's a movie star, she would reconnect with that lover. And actually they would be close friends until he died 30 years after that.

04:21:45 Speaker_03
So there's that element to it. There's the element of her going to Sweden and researching Swedish history, like her, you know, her national history, and she's going to play this role.

04:21:54 Speaker_03
And it's also, it's the period in her life, that trip to England and London and Paris. You know, she's had the eclipse on that Mercury, there's about to be a Mars retrograde on that Mercury. She's really, she feels more invaded than ever.

04:22:10 Speaker_03
Like it's a real, you know, she's really traumatized even. And all the biographers say that like she vanishes for about four months after she leaves London and France.

04:22:20 Speaker_03
They know she goes back to Sweden, but there's like no record of what she did, what she was going through. Some people speculate she might have been pregnant and had a miscarriage or had an abortion or all kinds of things, because they don't know.

04:22:33 Speaker_03
So it's such a fourth house perfection year, like par excellence. And you throw in the eclipse, you throw in the Neptune transit, and it's just wild. And just to conclude.

04:22:45 Speaker_01
So in the biography, They really emphasized that first trip that she took back home because the movies that she had been in America by that point had been shown in Sweden.

04:22:56 Speaker_01
So she returns back home for the first time as just this mega superstar, and they showed people falling all over each other. So this eclipse is coinciding with that first trip back.

04:23:07 Speaker_03
Yeah, this wasn't the first trip back, but that kept happening. But this was an even crazier invasion of her privacy. I know the one you're talking about, that was a few years earlier when she first went home.

04:23:19 Speaker_03
This one was even crazier, but she did a better job in Sweden of hiding from the public, but it was when she just tried to, you know, go and disguise herself and do a little sightseeing.

04:23:32 Speaker_03
One thing I forgot to say though, it's really funny, talk about spilling into the art. She makes this movie Queen Christina. Queen Christina was a queen who never got married. She wound up renouncing her throne to convert to Catholicism.

04:23:47 Speaker_03
But she was reportedly, she would sometimes dress as a man and go out incognito. And in the movie, Greta Garbo playing Queen Christina at one point dresses as a man and like goes to, you know, mingle with the common folk.

04:24:01 Speaker_03
And it struck me as funny because when you're watching the movie, she doesn't look like a man. She looks like Greta Garbo wearing pants, but everyone, all the other characters are supposed to believe she's a man. Old movies are like that.

04:24:16 Speaker_03
It's not like when you see modern movies. where people are really trying to be realistic. But it's just so funny that she was sort of spotted in London and Paris for wearing a really obvious disguise.

04:24:28 Speaker_03
And then she plays a character in a movie who is also like disguising themselves to go out in public. So my other point was that the perfection is even seen in the movie, the one movie she makes that year.

04:24:40 Speaker_03
Not only does it reflect everything that's going on in her life, like all 12 months of that year, but even the theme of the movie fits into that.

04:24:49 Speaker_03
The one other thing I just want to say in closing about Neptune is you can see her sons at the end of Virgo at 25 Virgo. And it was when Neptune came to make the conjunction to her son in 1940, that she disappeared from the public eye for good.

04:25:04 Speaker_03
It wasn't necessarily by design. I think it was, you know, partly she saw she was, you know, out of touch. Her last two movies had been comedies, which was sort of a genre switch for her. And I think she got out when she was on top kind of thing.

04:25:22 Speaker_03
But yeah, it's interesting, again, to come back to the Neptune transit signifying how she transformed cinema. The fact that she disappeared from view when Neptune was finally conjunct that sun is really interesting.

04:25:36 Speaker_03
One more thing I wanted to say, I forgot to point out.

04:25:39 Speaker_01
That's similar to some of the other examples.

04:25:41 Speaker_03
Right. One other thing, really interesting. I know I'm going a lot on her, but her astrology is just so rich.

04:25:47 Speaker_03
The other thing about Greta Garbo that we haven't talked about that is so much about that fourth house is she is said to be the queen of the closeup. She basically invented screen acting because you've seen old movies.

04:26:04 Speaker_03
Chaplin and Buster Keaton are great, but it was very theatrical. It was like theater acting caught on camera.

04:26:11 Speaker_03
But she learned how to act for the camera, which is much more subtle, which is much more about just sort of like, you know, some little change in a facial expression tells you what the character's feeling from moment to moment.

04:26:23 Speaker_03
And she's really the one who said to have created that, that subtle nonverbal way of acting on screen, as opposed to the stage, which are, you know, virtually opposite ways of approaching the craft.

04:26:37 Speaker_03
So I think that's also a really interesting thing about her as well.

04:26:41 Speaker_01
Yeah, maybe that's something about the ruler of the Ascendant being in Virgo because Virgo represents small things and sometimes how small things can make a big deal. So maybe it's something about that, I don't know.

04:26:53 Speaker_03
Yeah, I would go with that. It's also just 1929, the year that she made her first talkie movie, she had just turned 24. So you still get like the Mercury's ruling that ascendant with Jupiter and Gemini, and that's when she made her first talkie movie.

04:27:08 Speaker_03
And then you go down to the Virgo perfection year, three years later, and that's when she makes Queen Christina and all the stuff I just described happens. So it's also just, her career is really interesting to follow along with that as well.

04:27:21 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. And I'm glad you mentioned the Sun. I forgot to mention it's not just her ruler of the Ascendant, Mercury in the fourth, but her Sun is also placed there.

04:27:29 Speaker_01
So it's not just her sense of self and focus and direction in life with the ruler of the Ascendant, but also something about her basic identity with the Sun in the fourth house that also tends to be more private or gravitate in that direction.

04:27:42 Speaker_01
And that Sun is square Pluto, which is in the first house, which is also probably contributing things here since

04:27:49 Speaker_01
know, some of the complex outcomes that we're talking about are rarely a result of just one placement, but usually multiple things going on.

04:27:57 Speaker_03
Yeah. Another fourth thing that occurs to me, I'm sorry, I know, again, the astrology is so rich.

04:28:04 Speaker_03
Apparently, I've read some feminist critiques of her films, and her character wasn't like Jean Harlow, like your classic bad girl, but she also wasn't like your homespun, quote unquote, good girl.

04:28:17 Speaker_03
uh, to use the parlance of the day, like her, her character was really ambiguous morally. Uh, but apparently like the, the, the number of movies she made where her character dies is like, you know, uh, comparatively really high.

04:28:30 Speaker_03
Like her, her character was so, you know, her general sort of whatever movie she was in, you know, because she wasn't, you know, a totally sort of, she didn't portray pure type of characters.

04:28:45 Speaker_03
You know, it had to be written into the script often that her character would die by, you know, as punishment for, you know, her misbehavior, if you will. That was the sort of the movie code at the time.

04:28:56 Speaker_03
If you had someone in a movie doing something bad, they had to pay for it. You couldn't show people getting away with bad behavior. Her character often had to die, and that's another sort of fourth house thing, I guess.

04:29:08 Speaker_01
CB Yeah. Well, now that you mentioned that, actually, another thing I thought was interesting about her biography is that she had relationships with women or at least one major relationship with a woman so that she was

04:29:20 Speaker_01
She was queer, she was bisexual, and in that time period, one of the things that we'll come up to with some other examples is just that's something where people would have to keep secret or private or hidden about themselves.

04:29:34 Speaker_01
Otherwise, they would face persecution or even legal ramifications or other things like that, so that sometimes that became a tangible reason why sometimes people had to do things privately or secretly when having prominent fourth house placements.

04:29:50 Speaker_03
Yeah.

04:29:52 Speaker_03
I'm reminded, I mean, one of her same-sex relationships, I would describe her as fluid because she really, even that year when she's 32 and she goes back to Sweden, part of the time she's with her male lover, part of the time she's with her woman lover.

04:30:06 Speaker_03
There was another woman lover of hers, a woman named Mercedes de Acosta, who's a writer in her own right. And in 1960, she had some kind of medical emergency and she needed to pay her bills.

04:30:16 Speaker_03
So she wrote and published a sort of tell-all book about her relationship with Greta Garbo. And Garbo cut Mercedes Acosta out of her life for good at that point.

04:30:27 Speaker_03
But it occurs to me, this would be right around when Pluto was conjunct Greta Garbo's natal Mercury and Virgo down in the fourth house. if I'm not mistaking, in 1960 when that book was published.

04:30:37 Speaker_03
So yeah, even later in her life, you can see that that fourth house is central to everything for her.

04:30:45 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, that must have been really horrifying to her then personally. All right. Yeah, just to be such a private person, but then to have secrets about your life or your private life become public. Yeah.

04:31:02 Speaker_01
Alright, so let's move on to my next example, which is the birth chart of Louis Pasteur who is the famous scientist who the pasteurization method is named after. He was a French chemist. Actually, I should give the chart placements first.

04:31:22 Speaker_01
He had Libra rising with Venus and Capricorn in the 4th whole sign house, along with a whole stellium of planets that included Mercury, the Sun, Neptune, Venus, of course, Uranus, and Mars, all in Capricorn in the 4th whole sign house in a night chart.

04:31:40 Speaker_01
He was a famous French chemist, pharmacist, and microbiologist who was renowned for his discoveries of the principles of vaccination, microbial fermentation, and pasteurization, the last of which was, of course, named after him.

04:31:57 Speaker_01
So there's a couple of things that come up in his life.

04:32:02 Speaker_01
One is the topic of death as a motivating factor, and he's one of our first previews of that, where he experienced both the death of siblings as well as the death of children, which may have motivated some of his work with different things like vaccination because a lot of them died from diseases which today are actually preventable.

04:32:25 Speaker_01
So that's one major thing.

04:32:27 Speaker_01
The other major thing that I'm going to focus on here is that there's a huge element of secrecy surrounding his research and his laboratory, where privacy and secrecy were actually surprisingly significant themes in his life.

04:32:42 Speaker_01
So the reason for this is, one, the protection of ideas, where in the competitive world of 19th century science, protecting one's ideas and discoveries was actually crucial.

04:32:54 Speaker_01
And Pasteur was known to be very cautious about sharing his findings prematurely because he feared that his rivals might steal or even discredit his work.

04:33:04 Speaker_01
So he often kept his research private until he was confident in his results and ready to publish them formally.

04:33:11 Speaker_01
Another reason that he kept things private is that he wanted to have control over the narrative, because he was very keenly aware of his public image and his legacy.

04:33:21 Speaker_01
Legacy is a super important keyword here, where he carefully controlled how his work was presented to the public, often emphasizing successes and downplaying setbacks or controversies.

04:33:34 Speaker_01
And this control extended to his laboratory notebooks, which he kept private during his lifetime, possibly to maintain a curated version of his scientific process because he wanted to control his legacy.

04:33:47 Speaker_01
And some of that extended to even his ancestors, where he gave instructions for the preservation, but also to keep his written works private to some extent. So some historians today

04:34:04 Speaker_01
argue that Pasteur sometimes employed methods that were not entirely transparent or ethical by modern standards.

04:34:11 Speaker_01
And for example, he may have exaggerated the success of some of his vaccines or even used experimental treatments on humans without fully disclosing the risks involved.

04:34:20 Speaker_01
So keeping these practices private may have protected him to some extent from criticisms or even potentially from legal challenges may have been some part of the motivation.

04:34:32 Speaker_01
But also, his research was deeply personal to him because of his past personal experiences with losing members of his own family, and especially the loss of his children may have deeply influenced his scientific work.

04:34:45 Speaker_01
So as a result of that, I think that this personal connection may have actually made him more protective of his research because he viewed it as an extension of his own private struggles and emotions and attempts to

04:34:58 Speaker_01
sort of fix some things that had gone wrong in his life and in his family to some extent. Let's see what else.

04:35:05 Speaker_01
In his lifetime, the scientific community was really undergoing significant changes, and there was a lot more increase of competition for funding as well as for recognition, and this competitive environment probably contributed to his desire to maintain control over his research and to protect his intellectual property and legacy.

04:35:27 Speaker_01
So strategic balance between public engagement and private research. One thing that I found interesting is that he ended up founding the Pasteur Institute in Paris, and he's actually buried underneath the Institute.

04:35:42 Speaker_01
So that's something that will come up in terms of graves, burial, things like that having to do with the fourth house. And I just think it's interesting that he's actually buried underneath the Institute that he created and is named after.

04:35:56 Speaker_03
Yeah, especially in Paris, of all places, where of course, I mean, you know, some of the most famous cemeteries, you have the the Invalides, where Napoleon and other military leaders are buried.

04:36:08 Speaker_03
I mean, it's a city with a lot of different sort of, you know, burial plots. Of course, there's the catacombs full of bones.

04:36:15 Speaker_03
But yeah, for Pasteur to have his own private, you know, place, you know, for where he built, for him to be resting in a place that he built, I think is extra special. It's signified in what we see there.

04:36:29 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, in the main city of his country. Last thing I thought was interesting is that he told his family never to reveal his laboratory notebooks to anybody.

04:36:42 Speaker_01
It's like he left very specific instructions for the preservation of his legacy and death, and his family actually ended up obeying, and all of his documents were held and inherited in secrecy for a generation or so.

04:36:58 Speaker_01
And because he did not allow others in his laboratory to keep notebooks, this secrecy kept many aspects of his research unknown until relatively recently, where some more of this has come out and there's been more discussion and analysis of some of his methods and different things like that.

04:37:14 Speaker_01
But it brings up another fourth house thing that we'll get into more, which is just what happens after a person dies and some instances of the chart and fourth house placements sometimes being able to speak to that.

04:37:28 Speaker_03
Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, obviously everyone knows his name, you know, biochemists or what have you aren't usually, you know, household names. But we've all heard his name. You know that that sort of speaks for itself.

04:37:47 Speaker_03
Again, we have a mutual reception. Again, we have a Saturn that's just stationing direct within days of the birth. And that Saturn is part of the mutual reception with that Venus, which, as you pointed out, rules the Ascendant.

04:38:00 Speaker_03
So yeah, there's tremendous control over his sort of empire, if you will. The domicile and exaltation rulers of his Ascendant are in mutual reception. And one of them is making a phasis. So it's quite extraordinary.

04:38:16 Speaker_03
Even just seeing that Venus sandwich between the Neptune and Uranus within the stellium, and one tends to associate those outer planets with new developments in technology and culture and, you know, talk about culture.

04:38:31 Speaker_03
Suddenly we weren't drinking as much bacteria as we had been until Louis came along and helped with that. It's a really interesting chart.

04:38:40 Speaker_01
If I could do a rim shot right now for you, I would, but I sadly cannot. That's a good joke.

04:38:46 Speaker_03
I'm the drummer in this gang, so there you go. I have to do my own. That's true.

04:38:50 Speaker_01
I'm glad you brought up the Saturn placement though, because that's actually how I originally found this example. I was looking for examples of the ruler of the 4th and the 8th, and I started with mutual receptions.

04:39:03 Speaker_01
And he came up in your database actually first that he had a mutual reception between the 4th and the 8th, and that's where that piece about his notebooks and how they're inherited but kept private and secret by

04:39:17 Speaker_01
by the people who inherited them in his family until relatively recently, and I think it has to do with that strong mutual reception between his 4th and his 8th. CB. Yeah, absolutely. CB. Yeah. All right, so that is Louis Pasteur.

04:39:33 Speaker_01
Let's move on to my next example. This is not a ruler of the Ascendant example, but this is a Sun, Mars, and Mercury in the fourth whole sign house. I originally found this as a Sun example in the fourth house, but wanted to merge it into this section

04:39:54 Speaker_01
on privacy and secrecy because it was one of the most stunning examples I found of that concept in relation to the 4th house.

04:40:00 Speaker_01
This is the birth chart of Billy Tipton, who was born with Libra rising and the Sun, Mars, and Mercury all in Capricorn in the 4th whole sign house, co-present with the degree of the IC.

04:40:15 Speaker_01
So Billy Tipton was an American jazz musician, band leader, and then later a talent broker whose music career began in the mid-1930s when he led a band for radio broadcasts and went on into the 1940s and 50s. So

04:40:35 Speaker_01
Billy Tipton lived and identified as a man for most of his adult life, but after his death in the late 1980s, his friends and family were actually surprised to learn that he was transgender and had been born as a woman.

04:40:52 Speaker_01
Reportedly, none of his family members knew this in terms of past wives or partners or his children.

04:41:04 Speaker_01
So this is primarily about having the Sun in the 4th house, and sometimes having something about one's identity that is concealed or having to conceal it.

04:41:16 Speaker_01
There's multiple different things going on in this chart, which we can talk about in a little bit once I tell the story, but the setup and the basic premise is that He was known for his skill as a pianist, a saxophonist, and a band leader.

04:41:30 Speaker_01
And he achieved a degree of success in the mid-20th century jazz scene and really started to become prominent in that scene.

04:41:40 Speaker_01
So really early in his career, he adopted a male identity, likely partially to gain acceptance and to have opportunities in what was then the male-dominated world of jazz music in the 1930s and 40s.

04:41:56 Speaker_01
And during that time period, he started using binding and padding in order to create a more masculine appearance.

04:42:04 Speaker_01
So somebody who wanted to be in music, who specifically wanted to be in jazz, but jazz was not a place where women were accepted at that point in time. So part of the story is that that is thought to some extent to be part of the motivation

04:42:22 Speaker_01
for starting to present as a man at that point in time. Do you know much about the jazz scene in that time period in terms of being more male-dominated?

04:42:32 Speaker_03
Well, I mean, you know, I know quite a bit about the jazz scene. I'm a big fan of it. You had your singers, you had your Billie Holiday, your Ella Fitzgerald, and Billy Tipton would have been contemporary of theirs.

04:42:43 Speaker_03
But they were singers, not instrumentalists, and certainly not band leaders. You know, maybe occasionally you would have a woman in a band who played, you know, saxophone or piano or something.

04:42:54 Speaker_03
Like later, Sarah Vaughan was such a woman, but a band leader, that would have been probably beyond the pale in the 30s and 40s. Right. Unless it was an all-woman band, you could have something like that maybe happen as a novelty.

04:43:09 Speaker_03
It was like, oh my God, look at those women, they're playing instruments. You could have had something like that. But Billy Tipton would not have had the career he had, I think, if he'd lived his life as a woman.

04:43:20 Speaker_03
So yeah, it definitely gave him the chance to do what he wanted to do.

04:43:26 Speaker_01
Right. So it's a really interesting story because it highlights the challenges some of it was probably partially motivated by, especially what would have been contextualized in that time period, is wanting to pursue that career.

04:43:41 Speaker_01
But also, Billy wasn't just presenting as a man publicly, but also in his personal life as well. And reportedly, his wives and adopted children were unaware of his assigned sex at birth.

04:43:56 Speaker_01
So one of the things that's interesting to me about this story is that it highlights the challenges faced by

04:44:01 Speaker_01
what today are recognized as transgender people in a time when societal understanding of gender identity was really limited and was also very hostile towards even the concept of being transgender, which Billie was,

04:44:18 Speaker_01
So what's interesting, and I think the point of this story, is that Billy made choices to live authentically as himself, even if it meant concealing a significant part of his identity.

04:44:28 Speaker_01
This is really where I think the Sun, especially in the fourth house, comes into play. So his story prompts reflection on the complexities of gender identity and the lengths to which people may go to live a life that's true to themselves.

04:44:45 Speaker_01
There's this actually really interesting and really amazing documentary I watched on Billy titled No Ordinary Man,

04:44:52 Speaker_01
At one point in the documentary, there's an interview with a person named Zachary Drucker, and they had this amazing quote that I wrote down where they said, quote, trans people's survival through history was based on invisibility, based on people's ability to either conceal their feelings of gender dysphoria or where their ability to assimilate into society without being noticed.

04:45:20 Speaker_01
you see that people lived an entire life as the other gender, as it were, and were revealed post-mortem to be of the other sex. It's scary when centuries of your survival have been based on not being seen.

04:45:37 Speaker_01
I thought that was a really amazing quote, especially in this context, just with that third house stellium of three planets and how much that played a role.

04:45:49 Speaker_01
Yeah, sorry, fourth house stellium and just how that played such a major role in Billy's life and just thinking about what kind of fear they would have had, not just in terms of their public life, but also in terms of their private life if that became known.

04:46:08 Speaker_01
Of course, ironically, what happened when they passed away on January 21st, 1989, his son called the paramedics, and then the paramedics discovered that Billy was born a woman, or was not a man at birth, and

04:46:27 Speaker_01
it became this huge media fiasco, basically. And then all of the talk shows were talking about it, and the family was being hounded by reporters, and it was this huge thing.

04:46:37 Speaker_01
And of course, at that time in 1989, there was this huge stellium of planets that were in Capricorn that were moving through Billy's fourth house.

04:46:47 Speaker_01
So that famous Capricorn pileup in the late 80s would have been in Billy's fourth house, hitting all of those fourth house planets natally.

04:46:57 Speaker_03
Yeah, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, I think by January 89, they're all in Capricorn or just going into Capricorn, I think in Uranus's case. Yeah, those are heavy duty transits.

04:47:09 Speaker_03
I've read other stories of other trans people in history who didn't make it to the grave without being discovered and the consequences could be really brutal.

04:47:23 Speaker_03
And kudos to Billy for pulling it off, going the whole distance without anyone ever knowing.

04:47:33 Speaker_01
Yeah. Some of the early reporting was negative of how could the wife not know and accusing the wives of knowing or talking about the dishonesty aspect of it in terms of the personal lives. But for me, as I was watching the story, I was thinking how

04:47:54 Speaker_01
tough that would be to have such a deeply held private secret that could destroy your life, where even your family members might not know, and having to keep it from them for your entire life all the way through till death.

04:48:10 Speaker_01
It put that in perspective for me, what that experience would have been like to be trans, obviously even still in the present day, but even more so 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 years ago when it would have been even more dangerous.

04:48:24 Speaker_03
Yeah. And as it turns out, I believe his fears were well-founded because I think his adopted kids did renounce him, didn't they, when they learned the truth? Well, no. No? Oh, okay.

04:48:36 Speaker_01
That was what I thought I read there. I mean, there was definitely some stuff early on, but I know one of his sons was featured in the documentary that was released in the past few years. And he said that he came to understand

04:48:51 Speaker_01
what that was like and what Billy was living with and didn't seem to hold resentment over it.

04:48:57 Speaker_03
Okay. I think I read something that was older, maybe before that all sort of came about. Certainly, I mean, you can imagine that they had to process the whole thing. So there might've been different stages in terms of how they felt about it.

04:49:10 Speaker_01
Yeah. One of the things they said was that the son did say that he got harassed about it because then having a transgender father, kids would pick on him and say, does that mean you're gay? And this is 1989 when that was a slur to people. Yeah.

04:49:30 Speaker_01
Anyway, this also brings up though, again, just that theme of not just privacy and secrecy, but also post-mortem, things that happen after you die. In this instance, having that

04:49:43 Speaker_01
that secret come out when Billy died, but also so many discussions then that came as a result of that.

04:49:49 Speaker_01
And a lot of that was just that Capricorn stellium hitting stuff, and especially the day he passed away, transiting Uranus was conjoining his Mercury in the fourth house, and transiting Mercury was retrograde and conjoining his natal Uranus in the fifth house.

04:50:07 Speaker_01
So there's a ton of other stuff going on, but I just noticed two things in particular.

04:50:11 Speaker_03
Yeah. Of course, his natal Mercury is opposite Pluto, so that when Uranus is on his Mercury, it's also opposite his Pluto. The ruler of his Ascendant is Venus at 29 Scorpio, just coming out of a direct station.

04:50:24 Speaker_03
So again, we've got a very slow moving, deceptively powerful planet and that Venus and Scorpio being trined by Neptune at 29 Cancer.

04:50:36 Speaker_03
Neptune having made the ingress into Leo and it's in its regress period and trining a Venus that might even be moving slower than that Neptune potentially. So yeah, there's a lot going on there. The transits for his death are Quite amazing.

04:50:58 Speaker_03
Quite amazing.

04:51:00 Speaker_01
Yeah. Anyway, it was a good personal example, both with the natal placements as well as the transits, but I definitely recommend people check out that documentary because there's a good documentary all around. It's titled No Ordinary Man.

04:51:15 Speaker_03
Yeah. I'm going to do that. I also want to hear some of his music. That's the thing that intrigued me.

04:51:21 Speaker_01
Well, that was one of the things that was actually tragic about him is that they did one album and it was moderately successful, but so much so that they almost got signed and he was given an opportunity with his band to do several follow-up albums and to sign a contract.

04:51:40 Speaker_01
And it was going to be moving up higher and even working with Pavarotti and stuff was on the horizon.

04:51:48 Speaker_01
He was getting a major break, but Billy pulled back and turned it down and ended up moving to Washington or something like that and starting a family. And so there's this real interesting mystery about what happened at that point in time.

04:52:07 Speaker_01
Did Billy stop himself from going and being as successful as he could have been because he was fearful of his secret becoming public? That's one of the questions, if that's the correct scenario.

04:52:20 Speaker_01
Alternatively, did Billy hold back from pursuing that career and having as much success because Billy actually wanted to have a family and wanted to

04:52:29 Speaker_01
raise a family, which is also possible in terms of those fourth house placements, and then did end up adopting three children and did get married.

04:52:38 Speaker_03
Yeah, no, that's a good question. But I'm wondering why a jazz musician would be recording with Pavarotti.

04:52:43 Speaker_03
I mean, I know Pavarotti for an opera singer was kind of reaching across the aisle, so to speak, but it seems like a kind of strange combination. My impression was that Billy Tipton is a big band jazz musician, no? Or was he doing... I don't know.

04:53:00 Speaker_01
I'll look into it. All right. Okay. Fair enough. All right. Let's move on. I have one other example like that that was really good. This one was first brought to my attention.

04:53:14 Speaker_01
Camille Michelle Gray pointed out, I didn't know that we had her birth data, but this is the birth chart of Kerry Washington, the actress.

04:53:22 Speaker_01
And when I was looking at this, when I was researching the Sun in the fourth house, I just happened by chance to come across this interesting line in her Wikipedia page about an incident that happened a few years ago where she unexpectedly learned that she was conceived through a sperm donor in 2018, and so that her biological father

04:53:46 Speaker_01
or her father who raised her was not her biological father, and she didn't know until She's like an adult who had had almost like a full career at that point in time.

04:53:58 Speaker_01
So what happened is that this revelation came about as she was preparing to participate in the PBS Ancestry show titled Finding Your Roots.

04:54:09 Speaker_01
I don't know if you've seen that, but a bunch of celebrities go on and they do a DNA test and then they tell them different things, sometimes surprising things about their ancestry, basically, based on their DNA.

04:54:20 Speaker_03
Right. Larry David actually is related to Bernie Sanders. He had been playing him on TV, and then it turned out they actually are related when they did that. That's one of the funny ones I've heard. Yeah.

04:54:31 Speaker_01
Right. And sometimes there's funny little things like that. So she's like, oh, yeah, I'll do it. What was funny is she was having–well, I'll get into that actually in a minute, the timing.

04:54:43 Speaker_01
She signed up to do it, and her parents were sent a DNA kit, and they initially were on board with it. But then all of a sudden, once her parents got the DNA kit,

04:54:57 Speaker_01
Her father started acting weird, and he started acting erratic, and he wasn't sleeping, and he wasn't eating as much, and she had no idea what was going on or what his problem was.

04:55:08 Speaker_01
There's this amazing interview she did with Oprah where she talks about this, And eventually what happened is the show host was talking with the parents as the parents start trying to back out of it.

04:55:23 Speaker_01
And they eventually told the PBS host, Skip Gates, what the deal was, or a hypothetical scenario. And then he ended up telling them

04:55:38 Speaker_01
that it would be best to tell her the truth because he said that in his experience, when children aren't told the truth, then what happens is eventually the parents die and then they find out later, but then they have so many questions that just later go completely unanswered.

04:55:55 Speaker_01
And that's a worst-case scenario, he said to them, than just telling them and being honest. So after a lot of deliberation, eventually her parents sat her down and told her the truth,

04:56:08 Speaker_01
And her father was really broken up about it, because what she said was that her dad was really fearful that

04:56:22 Speaker_01
that the premise of why she loved him is that she believed that he was her biological father, and he feared that if she knew that he wasn't her biological father, that she wouldn't love him anymore, basically, even though he was the person that raised her.

04:56:42 Speaker_01
So she has this really amazing quote where she describes it in the Oprah interview where she said, She said, quote,

04:57:04 Speaker_01
She said, quote, I guess I realized sitting across from him that up until that moment, that every time I had said I love you to my father, that it had been on the condition of a lie.

04:57:15 Speaker_01
There must have been some part of him that thought she loves me because she doesn't know. She loves me because she thinks I am her dad. And maybe if she finds out. maybe that wouldn't be the case.

04:57:28 Speaker_01
And then she said, and I said to him, Dad, you are going to have a chance now to know what it feels like to be loved unconditionally. And she says, my dad loves me so much, and I have been able to now return that love, because it hasn't changed.

04:57:45 Speaker_01
If anything, it is deeper. My love for my parents is so much deeper in truth than it ever was before this revelation. It's just this amazing story, and she wrote an autobiography just in the past few years talking about it.

04:58:02 Speaker_01
In the chart, we can see the Sun is in the fourth house and the ruler of the fourth house is Saturn, which is up there in the 10th house.

04:58:10 Speaker_01
Interestingly, what was happening in terms of the timing is there were eclipses taking place in her fourth house in 2018 when this revelation came about.

04:58:24 Speaker_03
Her solar return is within hours of a lunar eclipse on that Saturn. It's very tight.

04:58:32 Speaker_01
Okay. One of the things that was cool about it is it showed to me again the interrelationship and how eclipses can tie together two disparate areas or seemingly opposing areas of a person's life. In her case, the 4th house and the 10th house, because

04:58:48 Speaker_01
In one of the interviews, she described how she'd been talking to the PBS guy, the host of that show, for years about doing it, but she wanted to wait until this television series she was on wrapped up.

04:58:59 Speaker_01
And then what happened in 2018 is the television series wrapped up, so she was having eclipses in her 10th house, which indicated a major

04:59:07 Speaker_01
ending and a major beginning in that area of her life in terms of career, but then the eclipses were also taking place in her fourth house at the same time.

04:59:17 Speaker_01
Because that TV show ended, that opened her up to be able to do this other television show about her DNA and her ancestry, which then precipitated this entire crisis that unfolded that summer.

04:59:31 Speaker_01
So again, that's just another one of those examples of how eclipses can sometimes tie together those two seemingly opposite and unrelated parts of your life in very striking ways. And I believe, I think there was also like a Mars retrograde.

04:59:43 Speaker_01
Yes, I was waiting.

04:59:45 Speaker_03
I was dying to jump in there with that. I stole a Mars retrograde story from you. Well, no, it's okay. But this is the thing, Mars only goes retrograde in Aquarius once every 32 to 47 years.

04:59:57 Speaker_03
And in fact, before 2018, it had been 47 years since Mars had been retrograde in Aquarius, the last time being 1971. So whenever I see someone who's got an Aquarius Sun, an Aquarius Ascended, that kind of thing,

05:00:11 Speaker_03
I'm often curious like okay so what was going on for this person in the summer of 2018 when there was that first Mars retrograde, certainly an ever in Kerry Washington's life Kerry Washington has always been an inquiry son she has never had Mars go retrograde in her son sign or on her son until 2018 when all this happens.

05:00:28 Speaker_03
And like I said, her solar return was right on a lunar eclipse on that Saturn of hers. Now she has a Sun-Saturn mutual reception. That certainly is, you know, that adds a lot more to both houses as we've been talking about.

05:00:42 Speaker_03
And then they're in this T-square with Uranus, which is something that, the kind of thing that one expects when it comes to these situations with, you know, third or fourth parents or what have you, or, you know, sometimes if technology's involved in fertility issues,

05:00:58 Speaker_03
or, you know, in these other issues where there's like a step-parent stepping in as a real parent, if you will.

05:01:06 Speaker_01
So yeah, the transits are fascinating. CB That was one of the basic indications is just sometimes having the ruler of a house in the sign opposite to its house indicates that it's othered or it's removed from familiarity in some way.

05:01:24 Speaker_01
So in ancient astrology, sometimes that can be an indication for living

05:01:30 Speaker_01
abroad or living in a different country, if the ruler of something like the fourth house is opposite its domicile because it's the furthest from its home situation that it can get.

05:01:45 Speaker_01
I don't know what all the details were, but I think it was just that her parents were having trouble conceiving, but it was during a time period where that was far less common to talk about in terms of doing something like that back then in the 70s.

05:01:59 Speaker_03
Yeah, she's born within a year or so of the first test tube baby. All this sort of stuff was kind of brand new. But yeah, that's powerful.

05:02:08 Speaker_03
I mean, you can always see with, that's the beauty of the Mars cycle is because with certain signs, because it'll only make a retrograde or a conjunction to the sun maybe twice in a person's lifetime, maybe three times if they live really old, then you can really zero in on those moments, on those periods, you know, three months out of an entire lifetime,

05:02:28 Speaker_03
when that one time Mars goes retrograde on the sun, and you know, there's going to be a story there, especially because she was 41. So she's in a six house perfection year Aries.

05:02:37 Speaker_03
So Mars was the Lord of the year, even so that you're already looking for its transits to be a little more central, uh, that the sun's in the fourth house as it is.

05:02:45 Speaker_03
So, yeah, I mean, it, it was, it was really timed in such a way that 2018, I think was always going to be the year that she found this out.

05:02:53 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, so the Mars retrograde and also those eclipses.

05:02:57 Speaker_01
So this is just a very simple example, like the Sun representing literally one of the classical indicators of the Father in the fourth house and just there being something secret or something private about matters pertaining to the Father and to ancestry and then finding that out at some point.

05:03:19 Speaker_03
I was raised by an adopted dad, and I am an adopted dad, and go adopted parents.

05:03:27 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. And that was one of the reasons why I made sure, and later went back to fix that, that It's like the fourth house is those who raised you.

05:03:38 Speaker_01
And sometimes that can relate back to biological parents and whatever the background is with them. But oftentimes the people that raised you are your fourth house, even if they're not biological necessarily.

05:03:52 Speaker_03
Yeah. We have a good example of that coming up soon enough. Okay.

05:03:58 Speaker_01
All right. So let's move. We got two more examples in this section. The next two are actually light, funny ones, not that we've had some heavy privacy and secrecy ones. The first one, Lindsay actually came up with this one.

05:04:14 Speaker_01
Lindsay Turner did, and I thought it was brilliant. This is the birth chart of Jem Henson, who is the founder of the Muppets and who was a Muppet a puppeteer basically, I guess, as the official designation.

05:04:28 Speaker_01
And he was born with cancer rising, and he has the Sun and Mercury in Venus all in Libra in the fourth whole sign house along with the IC. So having a fourth house stellium

05:04:44 Speaker_01
He was known as the creator of The Muppets, and Henson was a puppeteer who became famous for TV shows such as The Muppet Show, Sesame Street, Fraggle Rock, as well as the movies Labyrinth and The Dark Crystal.

05:04:56 Speaker_01
The funny thing about this is just that he spent his entire career hidden essentially below the stage while he would put his hand up in the air and control the puppets.

05:05:09 Speaker_01
And the puppets would be the ones that would appear in the television shows or the movies or what have you, and his face is rarely seen.

05:05:17 Speaker_01
So it's funny as a secrecy or privacy example because you have somebody whose entire career involves being hidden and yet still appearing to some extent.

05:05:29 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, and also it's interesting with the Mercury retrograde there, because keep in mind, he's Kermit the Frog. He's Ernie in Bert. We know his voice.

05:05:41 Speaker_03
That is the part of him that, apart from his arm moving the mouth of the puppet, the character voicings that he did are classic. This is the guy who sang the Rainbow Connection in the Muppet movie. Give me a break.

05:05:57 Speaker_03
You know, it's a fantastic voice, but it's the only part that carries out. And it's interesting, you know, it's retrograde. And so, you know, it's not Jim Henson's voice. You're not hearing, you know, how Jim would have sung the Rainbow Connection.

05:06:11 Speaker_03
You're hearing Jim sing the Rainbow Connection as Kermit the Frog. So yeah, that's another sort of interesting element to it as well, I think. the part of him that wasn't buried, the part of him that did rise to the surface.

05:06:28 Speaker_01
Totally. That's a great point. Yeah. And it's Venus in a night chart in the fourth whole sign house in its own domicile in Libra.

05:06:35 Speaker_01
And we're just getting one of the most positive expressions of that where this is obviously a much more positive example of secrecy and privacy having to do with the fourth house rather than something that's more difficult.

05:06:49 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes one interesting thing for people who are Jim Henson fans to do is to look at his synastry with Frank Oz. Frank Oz, we know, is the voice of Yoda, but he was also the voice of Bert and Miss Piggy.

05:07:04 Speaker_03
He was sort of like Jim Henson's puppet partner, if you will. So they're a fun pair to study together for people who want to dig more into the Jim Henson astrology fun show.

05:07:19 Speaker_01
for sure.

05:07:20 Speaker_02
Yeah.

05:07:21 Speaker_01
So shout out to Lindsay for that example. It's a great one. And then one more in this section is Vanna White. So this one was also found by Lindsay and she made some really great points.

05:07:35 Speaker_01
And then I made an additional realization where I suddenly realized it fit in this section where

05:07:42 Speaker_01
Vanna White's chart is Cancer rising with the Moon in Libra in the fourth whole sign house, co-present with Jupiter in a day chart, and it's ruled by Venus, which is up in Aquarius in the eighth house of other people's money.

05:07:58 Speaker_01
So Vanna White is an American television personality and game show host who's best known for her role on the game show Wheel of Fortune.

05:08:10 Speaker_01
And what's really funny about this is that I understood the second part of the example, which is I could see she had the ruler of the Ascent and the 4th, and the ruler of the 4th is Venus and the 8th.

05:08:23 Speaker_01
And I was like, that's interesting because I know other people win prizes basically on Wheel of Fortune, and that's the point is you're competing in this game show for prizes, which is very 8th house.

05:08:35 Speaker_01
But then I suddenly had this realization about why her 4th house is emphasized with the ruler of the Ascendant there, and it's because her role on the game show is literally to turn the letters so that they go from being hidden or obscured to suddenly becoming visible.

05:08:52 Speaker_01
That was literally her primary job on the game show. She became known as the host who turns the letters and makes the words appear, going from hidden to invisible. I just cracked up when I saw that. I thought it was amazing.

05:09:07 Speaker_03
That's a brilliant insight. Pat Sajak is really the host of the show, the guy who reads the questions and makes all the jokes and what have you. Vanna doesn't speak. You see her.

05:09:17 Speaker_03
She is like a star of the show as a figure, but largely silent and standing by the letters and just revealing them as these contestants, guests, by vowels and do all the things that you do on Wheel of Fortune.

05:09:31 Speaker_03
I also love that the sun is opposite Pluto because she's really like,

05:09:35 Speaker_03
You know, Pluto is the contestant, you know, the one who's going to find that they're either about to own a new car or they've just blown it and getting a new boat or whatever the case, these are all very sort of Pluto experiences where you go from rags to riches or riches to rags very, very quickly.

05:09:53 Speaker_03
So yeah, that's kind of interesting to me as well. But yeah, your insight about her revealing the letters, I think that's spot on and just hilarious.

05:10:02 Speaker_01
Yeah, so she reveals letters on the puzzle board as contestants would guess different words or phrases for those that haven't watched this.

05:10:10 Speaker_01
One other point that Lindsay pointed out that was also interesting is that in her private life, she's said to also love flipping houses and investing in real estate.

05:10:21 Speaker_01
So there's another fourth house thing there as well, of course, with the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth. Brilliant.

05:10:29 Speaker_01
Yeah, so I believe that is the last one in this section, so I actually want to take a little bit of a break, and then we're going to come back with a special guest who's going to join us for the next section. Oh boy, I hope it's Jim Henson.

05:10:44 Speaker_03
Right, or Vanna White. Or Vanna White. Yeah, Jim Henson's been dead for 30 years. Let's hope it's Vanna White.

05:10:51 Speaker_01
Jim Henson, that'd be a bit creepy right now. Okay. Yeah, I don't want any zombie Muppets on this show. It is October, it is Halloween time, so maybe. It is Halloween, yeah. Okay. All right, we'll be right back.

05:11:04 Speaker_01
The astrology software that we use on the Astrology Podcast is called Solar Fire for Windows, and you can get a 15% discount on the software by using the promo code AP15 when you purchase it through alabe.com.

05:11:19 Speaker_01
For Mac users, we recommend the program AstroGold for macOS, and you can also get a 15% discount when you use the promo code astropodcast15 at the website astrogold.io. We're back, and we have a special guest joining us. It's Lisa Scheim. Hey, Lisa.

05:11:37 Speaker_01
Thanks for joining us tonight.

05:11:38 Speaker_00
Hey, Chris. Thanks for letting me come on for a little cameo visit.

05:11:42 Speaker_01
A little cameo. It's a little better than the eight-hour thing last time. You're just coming in for a brief little thing this evening.

05:11:49 Speaker_00
I think that's the way to go.

05:11:50 Speaker_01
I think that is the way to go. I'm starting to realize, now that I'm thinking about it, that was smart.

05:11:56 Speaker_03
I'm your ringer on this marathon, Lisa.

05:11:59 Speaker_01
Yeah. Luckily for me, Nick has not learned that lesson yet, so we're having a late night. All right. So you have an example that you found in order to round out our last section about secrecy and that will help transition us into the next section.

05:12:18 Speaker_01
So why don't you go ahead and set it up and introduce it, and I'll pull up the chart.

05:12:23 Speaker_00
Yeah, so this example is of Nur Inyak Khan. She had Virgo rising with Mercury and Sagittarius in the fourth house. Mercury is applying to oppose Pluto somewhat closely, and Mercury is also opposite Saturn by sign in a night chart.

05:12:41 Speaker_00
So she was the eldest child of Hazrat Inyak Khan, who was the founder of the Sufi Order of the West, which we'll actually be talking about in the next section right after this.

05:12:53 Speaker_00
So obviously that gives her like a fourth house parent family signification already because her father was a notable public figure.

05:13:00 Speaker_00
But the really interesting thing about this one was that in World War II, she served as a British resistance agent in France in what was called the Special Operations Executive. So the purpose was to conduct espionage, sabotage, and reconnaissance.

05:13:16 Speaker_00
and to aid local resistance movements, which are, of course, by their nature, secret. It was really interesting because she was not raised to do this.

05:13:26 Speaker_00
It was just one of those things where sometimes people during a war end up doing something completely different than what they were doing before that time.

05:13:34 Speaker_01
Right. She was raised as a pacifist.

05:13:36 Speaker_00
She was raised as a pacifist, and she had pacifist ideals because of that, but she wanted to aid the war effort without killing people. And of course, it's interesting that her Ascendant ruler is the Mercury in Sagittarius in the fourth, right?

05:13:48 Speaker_00
Because Jupiter ruled Mercury, can be like the ideals around who you are, or you were raised with certain ideals or ideologies.

05:13:59 Speaker_01
Anyway- Like a pacifist Sufi father?

05:14:02 Speaker_00
Right, yeah, like you wouldn't when I when I came across this which I came across just in researching her father.

05:14:08 Speaker_00
I was like wait did I get this right is this the same family right because it seemed so incongruous that she was like doing espionage work. It didn't sound like she was made for it, honestly.

05:14:21 Speaker_00
It sounded like they were not even sure whether to send her. But anyway, she had a code name, which was Madeline, which is interesting with Mercury itself as the planet ruling the Ascendant and the fourth.

05:14:31 Speaker_00
So it's like her very identity was a secret, a secret name. And she became eventually the first female wireless operator sent to occupied France to aid in the French resistance.

05:14:44 Speaker_00
So again, secret messages with the Mercury ruling the Ascendant and the fourth. And, you know, of course, alternately, the French Resistance was also called sometimes the French Underground.

05:14:55 Speaker_00
And I always think that's interesting with the under-the-earth signification of the fourth house, right?

05:15:00 Speaker_01
That's literally like the ancient name for the fourth house, the under-the-earth.

05:15:06 Speaker_00
Exactly. So you think like underground basements, like things like that, or even metaphorical ones like fourth house significations. So anyway, she ended up being arrested about four months after she was sent, which apparently is pretty good.

05:15:22 Speaker_00
The life expectancy of one of those people being sent was like six weeks. So she actually like lasted a while. She was later taken to Germany and imprisoned. And, you know, I don't know if you talked about the prison signification earlier today.

05:15:37 Speaker_01
Yeah, he mentioned it very briefly, but this will be our first example, I believe.

05:15:44 Speaker_00
Yeah, so confinement constraint can be a fourth house signification. It's certainly not one of the most common ones you think of.

05:15:52 Speaker_00
You know, with the 12th house being more commonly associated with prisons, but we have seen a few examples in the research of like imprisonment actually also being associated with the fourth house.

05:16:03 Speaker_00
So anyway, she was the timing was really interesting. It was transiting Saturn. stationed at 2637 Gemini on October 10th of that year, which was opposite her natal Mercury, which is our Senate ruler in the fourth, with less than half a degree, right?

05:16:22 Speaker_00
Which was also her Saturn return. So that was transiting Saturn stationing within her Saturn return in the 10th house, opposing her Mercury.

05:16:31 Speaker_01
Yeah. Thank you. Let me put up a bi-wheel.

05:16:39 Speaker_00
Yeah, yeah, it's really striking. I almost didn't even catch this part. I tagged it on, added it on today. But so, yeah, transiting Saturn stationed around October 10th, exactly opposite that Mercury in the fourth.

05:16:56 Speaker_00
within that Saturn return in her 10th house. And on the one hand, that seemed like, okay, bad times, right? Because it's a night chart Saturn return in the 10th house, opposing her Senate ruler.

05:17:06 Speaker_00
But it was also, I mean, in a sad way, of course, but it was also cementing her legacy, what she would be known for in this process.

05:17:16 Speaker_01
So she was captured by the Nazis and sent to a concentration camp at this point?

05:17:21 Speaker_00
She was captured at that point. She was captured on or around October 13th. So with that, it was like right around when it was stationing. And then she was sent to Germany and she was in solitary confinement for 10 months in complete secrecy.

05:17:36 Speaker_00
And of course, the complete secrecy line kind of like perked my ears right with the fourth house, signification of secrecy there, not just with the espionage part, but also this.

05:17:46 Speaker_00
It was part of this, quote, night and fog political prisoner program by the Nazis to make political prisoners disappear without anyone knowing their fate.

05:17:55 Speaker_00
So not just like bad things happening to them, but like no one like really knowing one way or the other what happened.

05:18:00 Speaker_00
And I was struck also by the night and fog with, you know, her Senate ruler in the fourth, because, you know, at night, the sun goes down to the fourth house.

05:18:10 Speaker_00
You know at nighttime and so that's a little like disappearing something like disappearing the Sun during the during the night So almost a year later she was transferred to the Nazi concentration camp Dachau and executed So it is a sad example, but the striking piece Was certainly the the secrecy like both of those secret pieces, especially like sending secret messages and so forth

05:18:40 Speaker_00
Then she also had a bunch of like posthumous recognition. So she was granted British and French military or military allied awards after death. There's a whole bunch of things. It was like she had a bronze bust made of her.

05:18:54 Speaker_00
There's a stamp with her face on it. There's a quote blue plaque, which is like a recognition thing at with her name on it at the last house she lived at before she went to

05:19:06 Speaker_00
on this mission, which is interesting with the house signification of the fourth house.

05:19:11 Speaker_03
And the historical thing as well.

05:19:13 Speaker_00
Yes. And the historical, right. It was like she became this, you know, piece of history when honestly, like her biography leading up to that point didn't sound like super prominent.

05:19:23 Speaker_00
But it's one of those things with some of the people with the fourth house significations to become more famous after death. Right. She also had a bunch of theatrical plays, films, TV and radio shows made about her life.

05:19:37 Speaker_00
And I know, Chris, you noted maybe as the ruler of the fourth and the fifth, at least I think that was your note.

05:19:42 Speaker_01
Yeah. She has Jupiter ruling the fourth house and the ruler of the Ascendant, and Jupiter is placed in Capricorn in the fifth. And I keep seeing that fifth house placements show up in creative works.

05:19:54 Speaker_01
And actually, one of our people that I'll talk about later, a listener has a story of having the IC in the fifth and doing creative works based on her father's legacy.

05:20:04 Speaker_00
Wow. That's striking.

05:20:08 Speaker_03
This whole story reminds me of Josephine Baker, who, you know, she an African American singer performer who was living in France in the 30s and the 40s. And she was also she also worked as a spy.

05:20:25 Speaker_03
She was allowed to go between, you know, regular France and Vichy France for performance. So she was, you know, performing for people. And she had secret coded messages written on her sheet music in invisible ink.

05:20:37 Speaker_03
And she was later given the Légion d'honneur. I mean, she didn't get caught. So, you know, she was later decorated by Charles de Gaulle for her service to France. I even wonder if maybe she and Noor knew each other.

05:20:51 Speaker_03
But Josephine Baker also strikes me as someone who had no training to be a spy. I mean, she was just a nightclub performer.

05:20:59 Speaker_01
Ironically, it looks like she also had Virgo rising. She did, yeah. But she had the ruler of the fourth in the 10th house, Jupiter and Gemini in the 10th.

05:21:08 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. So you can see, you can see it's still sort of, you know, playing out for her that that's, you know, maybe this is why she was better at, you know, staying free.

05:21:20 Speaker_03
You know, the fact that the ruler of the fourth is hiding away in the 10th in plain sight, because she was a very hiding in plain sight kind of spy, right? I mean, she's very public. She was already famous.

05:21:30 Speaker_03
And yeah, and still I carry those messages back and forth.

05:21:34 Speaker_01
One of the things I thought I read about Josephine Baker that part of her thing was her social connections and that she would get info from people at parties and stuff.

05:21:44 Speaker_01
I often associate with a 7th house component because Jupiter's ruling the 4th and the 7th and it's in the 10th or possibly an 11th house component with Venus in the 11th.

05:21:55 Speaker_03
Well, yeah, the Venus Neptune in the 11th says volumes about her and the kind of life she had as a performer, as a human being, because she did know everybody. I mean, she's part of that whole Paris scene.

05:22:08 Speaker_03
So anybody who's anybody in Paris knows Josephine Baker. Yeah.

05:22:14 Speaker_01
All right. So anyway, back to the example, though, that's a really amazing example. And

05:22:22 Speaker_01
Yeah, because we also already talked about Julia Child, who also did secret covert stuff during the war as well with the ruler of the Ascension and the fourth, and then later after the war would go on to do other fourth house stuff related to cooking and homemaking.

05:22:41 Speaker_01
But this is a more tragic example of somebody who did covert stuff during the war, but that ended up being their final thing and part of their final lasting legacy.

05:22:53 Speaker_00
Yeah, she was only 30 when she died, so that became like the defining thing that she was remembered for.

05:23:00 Speaker_01
Right, yeah.

05:23:04 Speaker_01
Yeah, well, that's a really good example, and I think that really helps to round out this section on secrecy, on privacy, and covert things that I think I've been paying attention to for years, but it was really great looking into this more and getting some of these.

05:23:22 Speaker_01
I think this is something you were a little skeptical about at one point, Lisa, but you feel more compelled by it, confident now by some of these.

05:23:30 Speaker_00
not so much skeptical as like, there's more examples of it than I expected, right?

05:23:35 Speaker_00
Like some of the there's some house significations where it's like, sure, they come up, but like, not nearly as frequently as some of the other ones, that kind of thing. So I was like, sure, it could come up as secret things.

05:23:44 Speaker_00
But like, how often is that a major part of someone's life? Right. But then when we looked for, you know, research examples of like, oh, there's more than I thought. So it was really striking to find them.

05:23:55 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure.

05:23:56 Speaker_01
That's one of the reasons I wanted to have this section and share all this research because I was so excited to finally show the world here's a collection of this, this is a thing, and now other people will be able to… Once you understand what to look for, now it'll be easier for people to research this and identify additional examples.

05:24:15 Speaker_00
Right, because I think it's easy with this kind of signification, like the secrecy for the fourth, to just sort of gloss over it and not see that in someone's chart or to attribute it to something else or, you know, just because it's not like one of the main fourth house significations you usually hear about.

05:24:30 Speaker_01
Well, one of the points you made that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode as a preliminary remark is that the fourth house is already hard to research because it's the part of the chart that by definition represents the private life and the most hidden or private parts of a person's life.

05:24:46 Speaker_01
So especially with celebrity charts, sometimes that can be difficult to research and document. And this then is an even more tricky part where sometimes

05:24:56 Speaker_01
may be things that you see in a chart that even you try to delineate in a consultation or with a celebrity or something, but that you may not be able to because that information may not be public knowledge.

05:25:08 Speaker_01
Imagine if somebody sat down with Billy Tipton and did a chart reading while Billy was in their 40s or something like that. Yeah, sometimes there's just things

05:25:21 Speaker_01
either a person has to keep private or secret, or things that they opt to keep private or secret for whatever reason, or in the case of Kerry Washington, things that are being kept private or secret from them that they don't know about.

05:25:35 Speaker_00
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

05:25:37 Speaker_00
I figured that would be quite a limiting factor when we started looking for charts for this episode, and I've been happily surprised to see how many things you could still find that were publicly knowable, at least at this point in time.

05:25:50 Speaker_01
Yeah.

05:25:50 Speaker_01
Well, that is an excellent transition point into our next section, which you have joined us in order to lead because this is one that you really pioneered and you felt like was a major section that we needed to include, which is talking about the fourth houses pertaining to the inner world and themes of contemplation and other things like that.

05:26:10 Speaker_00
Yeah, so I had long noticed that sometimes, just kind of like what I was saying, the main fourth house significations wouldn't resonate with some people who had important fourth house placements. And I was like, well, it's got to mean something.

05:26:23 Speaker_00
It's got to be actually more important than usual here, right? But it was like a dead note or something. But after a while, I noticed that

05:26:29 Speaker_00
Some of those people had like things like a significant meditation practice, or they attended to their inner life, more than usual, like more than the average person.

05:26:37 Speaker_00
And I was like, that's got to be a thing right because it's like an inner part of the chart. And, you know, I also knew there was this almost.

05:26:46 Speaker_00
what felt like at the time a throwaway part of the end of the lists of fourth house significations, like secret or mystical matters, hidden things.

05:26:55 Speaker_00
Interestingly, you know, I just noticed looking back that Riley translated that part as religious matters, which is an interesting angle on it. But, you know, so this actually does make sense, you know, the contemplative

05:27:10 Speaker_00
fourth house signification in connection with the other significations because it's kind of extension of your private life, like it's the most private part of your private life is like your inner world, right?

05:27:20 Speaker_00
And, you know, mysteries by their nature, like not everyone sees like what's going on with you with that, right? And I had always been kind of intrigued by that last piece of those like lines of significations, but I'm like, what do you do with that?

05:27:36 Speaker_00
They're mysteries, right? Like, how do you know what they are then? Anyway, so doing research for this episode actually really confirmed that signification for me, the contemplative piece. I found a bunch of great charts for this.

05:27:50 Speaker_00
So the first one is Khosrowt Inyat Khan, who is the father of Nur Inyat Khan we were just discussing. So he had Pisces rising with Jupiter and Gemini in the fourth house. Jupiter's also ruling the 10th house, placed in the fourth.

05:28:09 Speaker_00
And the ruler of the fourth house is in the fifth, Mercury in Cancer. So he was a renowned Indian musician, Sufi teacher, and mystic. He was credited with bringing Sufism to the West, founding the Sufi order of the West.

05:28:25 Speaker_00
And his teachings emphasize the inner life and development of intuition. He established a, quote, inner school. When I first saw this, I was like, oh, yeah, this is it, right? All of that inner signification.

05:28:40 Speaker_00
He established a, quote, inner school comprising four stages of contemplative study. Based on the traditional Sufi disciplines, he translated into English as concentration, contemplation, meditation, and realization.

05:28:54 Speaker_00
So when I started reading through his biography, I was like, oh yeah, this is the fourth house signification.

05:28:59 Speaker_00
And I was pretty excited to see that line up because I had so far just seen it in like everyday people I knew who had like strong meditation practices or things like that.

05:29:10 Speaker_00
But he was like the actual leader of like a whole movement or lineage of contemplative practice.

05:29:18 Speaker_01
Right. And actually like codified it with those four principles especially.

05:29:23 Speaker_00
Yeah, yeah, and continued it on from previous lineages. So I found this statement on the website for his lineage.

05:29:35 Speaker_00
Sufism is not a religion in the sense of being a system of beliefs separable from other religions, but in a school of experience focused on the cultivation of the heart and the deepening of awareness through the practice of prayer, meditation, and spiritual inquiry.

05:29:51 Speaker_00
So, you know, it's not, it's not religion, it's not like the, it's more of the inner part of either spirituality or religion, it doesn't have to be like a traditional religion.

05:30:05 Speaker_00
You know, there are some people that are associated with those and some people who are not who have this, this placement, but it's like the, the inner part of that work. It's not the codified rules, it's not religious rules and practices.

05:30:19 Speaker_00
It's like, what are you doing to develop your inner life and your inner world and your spiritual practice?

05:30:25 Speaker_01
CB Right. I looked up a Google definition and it said, Sufism is a mystical Islamic practice that focuses on spirituality, ritualism, and asceticism with the goal of achieving a direct personal experience of God.

05:30:40 Speaker_00
Yeah, so it's like that personal thing again, right? It's like your private life, it's your private connection with the ineffable or what have you. It's not the exoteric as the esoteric part.

05:30:53 Speaker_01
Yeah, and I think that's important because that's the through line with the other examples that you found where this is like the

05:31:00 Speaker_01
a lot of the major religions have a version of this, which is like a metaphysical or like an occult, or that's not the right term, a mystical version of their religious practice that emphasizes more a direct personal connection with the divine or with God.

05:31:20 Speaker_01
And this is the Islamic offshoot of that. But then we've found some other examples with Hinduism, with Judaism, and with Christianity.

05:31:33 Speaker_00
Right. Yeah. It was actually really cool to see a bunch of different ones going that way. But yeah, it's the focus on the inner experience and the inner development. It can be spiritual development, but it's like the inner practice.

05:31:49 Speaker_03
I always think of Sufism as being more artistic than you find in the poets, the musicians, the art in Islam seems to come from Sufism, at least from my vantage point.

05:32:07 Speaker_00
Right. Right. Well, and interestingly, in his chart, he has the ruler, the fourth and in the fifth. Right. And he was also like a prominent musician, like he blended that with the mysticism. So, yeah, he was like born into a family of musicians.

05:32:20 Speaker_00
He was a master of the Vena instrument and a gifted vocalist. And he he tried to harmonize East and West through music and mysticism. So exactly that.

05:32:31 Speaker_01
Yeah, it's funny because there's also the Alexander Graham Bell thing as well, where it's Pisces rising and Jupiter in Gemini.

05:32:43 Speaker_00
The other thing I thought that was cool about this one is it just really showed the importance of lineage, because his Sufi sources included both some of his paternal ancestors, but also his particular Sufi teacher, the latter of which included four different lineages, you know, in the fourth house being like people who came before you, people or things that came before you.

05:33:04 Speaker_00
And it kind of illustrates that those lineages can be both of blood and of teaching.

05:33:11 Speaker_01
Yeah, that's really huge. Can I characterize it as we don't have as much familiarity with that in the West sometimes, but that there's more of a connection with that, especially with different

05:33:27 Speaker_01
Eastern, as we'll see in some of the upcoming examples, especially some of the different Eastern religious or philosophical lineages where things are passed forward from student to teacher for generations.

05:33:40 Speaker_01
And that does seem to become, as we'll see in some of the future examples, like a fourth house thing.

05:33:46 Speaker_00
Yeah, I was pretty excited to notice that because it also felt like one of those things where you can observe how the astrology is still the astrology, but it's like combining with different cultures in different ways, where if lineage is not important in the US, not nearly as important as some other places, then we're going to mostly see family lineage there.

05:34:06 Speaker_00
But in other places that can show other kinds of lineage, which is like this.

05:34:12 Speaker_01
CB Right, for sure. And I guess there are versions of that. Hermeticism had a version of that in the West, or Freemasonry has a version of that in the West, and I'll show an example of that later. But it's a little different than this.

05:34:27 Speaker_00
LS Yeah, it's not that it's black and white, but there's certainly more, I think, emphasis on lineage elsewhere than here.

05:34:35 Speaker_01
All right. That is a great, great example. So you found that example, and then we're looking around for others.

05:34:44 Speaker_01
And pretty early on in the process, I remembered a major chart that one of my early Vedic astrology teachers, Dennis Harness, had shared with me, which is the birth chart of Paramahansa Yogananda. And Yogananda was

05:35:01 Speaker_01
a Hindu and an Indian monk and a yogi. Actually, I should put up his chart. I'm still showing the Sufi chart. So this is the birth chart of Yogananda.

05:35:15 Speaker_01
There's slightly differing times, but all of the times I've seen get Virgo rising with Mercury in Sagittarius in the fourth whole sign house, ruling the 10th house as well as the Ascendant, and it's co-present with the Venus.

05:35:31 Speaker_01
in Sagittarius in a night chart. So it's co-present with the most positive planet in the chart. His is a really interesting story because he was an Indian monk and yogi who introduced millions of people to meditation and to Kriya Yoga.

05:35:46 Speaker_01
So he was basically a key figure in bringing yoga to the West earlier in the 20th century, and he established an organization for this called the Self-Realization Fellowship in Los Angeles in 1925.

05:36:04 Speaker_01
So his best-selling book is titled Autobiography of a Yogi, and it continues to be a source of inspirations for spiritual seekers around the world.

05:36:12 Speaker_01
And he was influenced to some extent by theosophy, I get the sense, and he emphasized the underlying unity of all religions and taught a balanced approach to health and well-being for body, mind, and soul.

05:36:26 Speaker_01
And he's said to be one of the first Hindu teachers, if not

05:36:31 Speaker_01
I mean, some of his followers claim that he was the first Hindu teacher of yoga to spend a significant or spend a major portion of his life in America, and he toured America at different points.

05:36:43 Speaker_01
So I thought that was really interesting just because of the focus on meditation especially and on yoga and those internal practices and having the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house.

05:36:54 Speaker_04
Yeah.

05:36:55 Speaker_01
Yeah.

05:36:55 Speaker_03
Another, oh, I'm sorry. I just want an interjection. He first came to the U.S. in, he arrived in September of 1920, which means he was 27 years old when he came to the U.S. for the first time, and he was in a fourth house perfection year.

05:37:14 Speaker_01
Nice. brilliant. Yeah. And so fourth house perfection, you're activating that and he would basically live like the rest of his life in the United States. So it's interesting that in terms of the fourth house placement as well.

05:37:33 Speaker_00
Yeah. It's interesting because he has a Senate ruler there and the benefic of sect, like Venus in a night chart.

05:37:40 Speaker_00
And just thinking again about the other fourth house significations, if you tried to read this person's chart and you were like, home and family is really important to you, they might be like, yeah. But it was really like that inner world.

05:37:52 Speaker_01
CB Right. If you said there's something about your private life and your inner world that is important to you, he would be like, yes, that resonates.

05:38:00 Speaker_00
LS Right, exactly.

05:38:04 Speaker_03
He's presented as one of the first gurus, I think is what you were getting at, Chris. The first guru to arrive in the West, to have that relationship to an American public or to a Western public. At least that's how I understand it.

05:38:21 Speaker_03
He's the trailblazer for that, for the whole idea of having gurus in the West.

05:38:27 Speaker_01
Right. And which creates lineages and stuff in and of itself.

05:38:32 Speaker_01
And then also, yeah, and bringing Eastern teachings on these more internal-oriented religious or spiritual inclinations and mystical practices to a Western audience and initiating large Western audiences to those. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

05:38:57 Speaker_01
So that is that example, and then Lisa did an amazing job. So we've done essentially an Islamic example of that, mine was the Hindu example, and then Lisa has found a few others to round things out.

05:39:14 Speaker_00
So the next one is Gershom Scholem. He was Virgo rising with Mercury in Sagittarius in the fourth. He also had the Sun, Mars, Saturn, and Uranus also in Sagittarius in the fourth. So really like packed fourth house there.

05:39:32 Speaker_00
So you would think there's just a huge concentration in that area for some reason. He was a German born Jewish philosopher and historian. And you can already see the fourth house signification of like the history part.

05:39:45 Speaker_00
But he's also widely considered the founder of the modern academic study of Kabbalah, which is Jewish mysticism. So he did a whole bunch of historical research to find and piece together scattered Kabbalistic texts.

05:40:00 Speaker_00
and dedicated his life to researching and analyzing those and challenged the prevailing views at the time that dismissed that as just superstition. He took it seriously as an academic pursuit.

05:40:14 Speaker_00
It's not clear whether he was actually personally practicing this or not. He was famously private, which makes sense with the huge fourth house concentration there. So he tried to keep himself out of the limelight and just focus on the work itself.

05:40:28 Speaker_00
But yeah, it was really interesting, kind of like that exoteric esoteric thing again, where he was like the Jewish mysticism wasn't just inherently interesting in itself to him, but that it like challenged the sort of prevailing norms of Judaism that were more about like rules and law.

05:40:49 Speaker_00
that he was like, but there's this whole other inner strain that people aren't talking about that was there since the medieval times.

05:40:56 Speaker_00
And so yeah, so he did a whole bunch of rigorous scholarship, helped establish Kabbalah as a legitimate field of academic inquiry. And what I love about this example is that it illustrates several fourth house significations.

05:41:14 Speaker_00
I mean, I guess a lot of them do, but it's the historical texts. You know, Mercury is already ruling the Ascendant in the fourth, and Mercury is like, you know, words and texts.

05:41:25 Speaker_00
And then it's texts about mysticism itself, which is a fourth house signification. And there's also the contemplative piece, because part of, not all of, but part of Jewish mysticism, there are like meditative pieces, contemplative pieces. So, yeah.

05:41:43 Speaker_00
So anyway, I was pretty excited when I found that. Because again, it was just like bolstering this whole like, oh, there is a concentration of fourth house contemplatives that just like I didn't, I've never heard people talk about.

05:41:58 Speaker_03
Yeah, for sure. It's very interesting. He was born right at the Uranus ingress into Sagittarius, like within a couple of days. And then when he died in 1982, it was like two months after Uranus ingress into Sagittarius.

05:42:14 Speaker_03
There has to be something about him that connects with that. Obviously, anyone with a Saturn-Uranus conjunction, it's a very sort of complicated thing.

05:42:20 Speaker_03
But since the Uranus is the planet that just made the ingress and for him, again, fourth house, coming and leaving, he He joined us when Uranus had just gone into Sagittarius, and then he left us when Uranus had just gone into Sagittarius.

05:42:33 Speaker_03
That's interesting.

05:42:35 Speaker_01
It's probably something about one of those biographical things is just Kabbalah being treated as something that's like a weird oddity in Jewish studies up to that point, but him centering it not just as this like

05:42:50 Speaker_01
weird, bizarre thing, but actually as a really core thing that was part of Jewish history and ancestry.

05:42:57 Speaker_01
This becomes also a good example of one section we'll get into next, which is looking to the past and sometimes people that become historians being part of that.

05:43:07 Speaker_01
This becomes one of our first good examples of a historian who, in his instance, he's not just a historian,

05:43:14 Speaker_01
who's studying something random or abstract, but also because he had Jewish ancestry, there was probably an element of that to his search or his investigation as well.

05:43:26 Speaker_00
Exactly. And especially with the Saturn Uranus there, he actually came from a family that was more like German assimilated and not super religious and his rebellion was like going back to, you know, ancestry.

05:43:39 Speaker_00
And so, and you know, the Saturn Uranus conjunction there is interesting as well, because it was like, yeah, that tension of

05:43:47 Speaker_00
like him trying to integrate something that he felt without was authentic to, you know, the lineage of Judaism itself and Jewish history, but trying to like blend that with like, you know, current day understanding of it, which I feel like is part of that Saturn Uranus.

05:44:07 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think of Saturn Uranus as being you're either normalizing something that's considered strange, or you're taking something that's considered normal and making it strange.

05:44:18 Speaker_03
You're sort of blending things that are supposed to be incongruent or are not supposed to be unified, and somehow you do.

05:44:30 Speaker_01
I love that also because you can also localize it probably then to a family context as if he grew up in a non-religious, atheistic household or something along those lines, then it's like he's growing up and sticking it to the man or sticking it to his father, his family by rebelling and becoming religious or at least focused on religious studies.

05:44:52 Speaker_01
And that's always a funny dynamic when

05:44:55 Speaker_01
the child grows up in an environment of a certain sort and then rebels against it by doing the opposite of whatever their parents did, whether that's growing up in a religious environment and then rebelling by rejecting religion or, in this case, almost the opposite to some extent.

05:45:12 Speaker_00
Exactly.

05:45:14 Speaker_03
We've seen a few examples over the course of this episode of sons having some sort of Oedipal thing with their fathers signified in the fourth house.

05:45:29 Speaker_03
And when you're looking at his fourth house, you definitely get the impression that something like that could have been you know, in the picture that he was indeed motivated to, you know, stick it to the old man, so to speak.

05:45:42 Speaker_03
You know, I sense an element in there. I don't know his story at all.

05:45:46 Speaker_00
Yeah, yeah, I forget why, but he got kicked out of his house. And I can't, it might have been a part of why, but I can't remember that for sure.

05:45:55 Speaker_00
But yeah, it's, I mean, people always think of Uranus as weird, but it's just weird for whatever the context you're in.

05:46:02 Speaker_00
So like when people have Uranus oppositions in their 40s, for instance, it's not always people doing like really erratic, weird things. If that was already their context, sometimes people reverse that and go get a Fortune 500 job in their 40s. Yeah.

05:46:20 Speaker_01
CB Right. Yeah. If you already drive like a red sports car or your parents did, then you buy like a… CB Which would be very Uranian. All right, good example. So let's move on. You found another internal area

05:46:44 Speaker_00
Yeah, there's a few more. So the next one is going to be Ken Wilber. He's Libra rising with Venus and Capricorn in the fourth house along with Jupiter and Capricorn. And he was a pretty prolific author. He is still alive.

05:46:57 Speaker_00
He is a pretty prolific author focused on consciousness, mysticism, transpersonal psychology, and unified theories of quote everything.

05:47:07 Speaker_00
So, some of his books that he started out with in particular were The Spectrum of Consciousness, Transformations of Consciousness, Conventional and Contemplative Perspectives on Development, Spiritual Choices, The Problem of Recognizing Authentic Paths to Inner Transformation,

05:47:22 Speaker_00
Integral Meditation, Mindfulness as a Way to Grow Up, Wake Up, and Show Up in Your Life, and Integral Buddhism and the Future of Spirituality. He has many other books besides those.

05:47:34 Speaker_00
I was kind of pulling out the ones that were focused on, you know, those, if you read those titles, it's really evoking the like a Senate ruler in the fourth house, right? So, that's where he kind of started.

05:47:46 Speaker_00
He started with like Buddhist meditation and Vedanta and he went further afield later in theorizing. Yeah, really far afield. So, not really focused on his entire body of work here.

05:48:00 Speaker_00
But just kind of like that that was the genesis and the focus of a lot of his work was consciousness. He did face some more criticism in later years and

05:48:10 Speaker_00
I was trying to sort out when I was researching this, like everything going on with this, but not having already been following him too much before this, I was like, all right, for the purpose of this example, I don't need to figure all of that out.

05:48:20 Speaker_00
I just need to, you know, this focus was consciousness. But interesting that one of the critiques, at least at one point in time anyway, I don't know if it's current anymore, was that at one point he had a

05:48:34 Speaker_00
He had a very hierarchical model of the levels of consciousness, and not just applied to individuals, but also even cultures. So obviously that could raise criticism.

05:48:45 Speaker_00
But I thought that was interesting in that the Venus and Jupiter in Capricorn in the fourth are in Capricorn, which is nothing if prone to hierarchy. Not all of the time, but it's ruled by Saturn. It likes things to go step by step. Yes.

05:49:03 Speaker_03
Capricorn is hierarchical.

05:49:05 Speaker_00
Yeah.

05:49:06 Speaker_03
And you can imagine it being more sort of comfortable with the familiar as well. Less likely like say Sagittarius where you're out in the world. It's more sort of like what's my culture versus someone else's culture, more compartmentalized.

05:49:27 Speaker_03
It strikes me, Lisa, a lot of the examples you've brought in, well, at least two, but I think I saw more, all had Sun opposite Pluto. I don't mean to knock us off topic, but just like a side observation. Yeah, there's been a lot of Sun opposite Pluto.

05:49:43 Speaker_00
Yeah, I wasn't really paying attention to that. That is interesting. I mean, I think Sun and Pluto in general has more propensity to just become known publicly, but maybe there's more beyond that going on here.

05:49:57 Speaker_03
Yeah, broadly, I think of Pluto being sort of things that would only have happened in the 20th century, you know, things that are really distinct to that period, even if they're sort of cultural ideas that, you know, have evolved from other eras, you know, it's putting some kind of very distinct 20th century stamp on whatever it is you're doing.

05:50:18 Speaker_00
Yeah, that makes sense.

05:50:19 Speaker_01
Well, as a Sun-Pluto conjunction, I think also Sun-Pluto aspects can sometimes be associated with taking things to extremes and digging down deep and going as far as you can into a subject which some of these natives, I think, shared when it came to focusing on their specific spiritual discipline.

05:50:40 Speaker_03
Although I don't see that in you.

05:50:42 Speaker_01
No, I'm pretty easygoing.

05:50:46 Speaker_00
I think about the placements in the fifth house and creative output, and he wrote tons of books, but it was like that was one of the big criticisms of him is not only

05:50:59 Speaker_00
maybe not being so personable sometimes when critiqued, but also just going too far, trying to literally make theories of everything. That's what he did in his titles of some of his books.

05:51:12 Speaker_01
One of the titles is A Brief History of Everything.

05:51:15 Speaker_00
Yeah. I'm not exaggerating. So that was his thing. So perhaps that is part of the Sun. Pluto was trying to do too much.

05:51:26 Speaker_01
I don't know this guy, but I think I can get on board with this. It's sounding pretty good to me. Yeah, you just like people with Jupiter and Capricorn, I think. Maybe.

05:51:36 Speaker_01
All right, I'll have to look into him later, but good example of another sort of like internal sense. And then you have funny, we like to have like a… Actually, what is your next one?

05:51:53 Speaker_00
My next one is, yeah, that's after that. So this is like one that I would love listener help with corroborating. St. Teresa of Avila really wanted to use as an example. I'll just talk through why. So there's a birth time discrepancy from the biographies.

05:52:11 Speaker_00
There's one that says 5 a.m. The other one says 5.30 a.m. So with the 5 a.m. time,

05:52:18 Speaker_00
it would be late Pisces rising with Jupiter and Mars and Gemini in the fourth house, or else with 530 AM it would be Aries rising with Mars and Gemini in the third house along with Jupiter. So I think, do you have her chart at all, Chris?

05:52:33 Speaker_01
Which time do you want me to show?

05:52:36 Speaker_00
I am more swayed by the 5am, but I'll talk through why. So she was a medieval Spanish Christian mystic, monastic, and nun. She wrote books such as The Interior Castle and The Way of Perfection.

05:52:54 Speaker_00
which were about Christian mysticism and Christian meditation practice, which already sounds kind of fourth housey. You know, there's other ways that can show up, certainly, but here, so here's the chart.

05:53:03 Speaker_00
So if it was 5am, it would be Venus exalted in Pisces in the first, ruled by Jupiter in the fourth. Makes sense so far as a possibility, right?

05:53:12 Speaker_01
In terms of- The internal castle.

05:53:14 Speaker_00
Yeah, the interior castle, which cracked me up because there's already the interior. That would have been enough for me.

05:53:21 Speaker_00
But the castle, the buildings, the buildings, part of the fourth house, because how she describes that is the interior castle uses the illustration of seven mansions within the castle of the soul to describe the different states one's soul can be in during life.

05:53:41 Speaker_00
I was just like, castles, mansions, buildings, interior. It all sounds very fourth housey to me, right? CB.

05:53:49 Speaker_01
Yeah. I like the seven as well because there's an ancient Mesopotamian thing about I think it had to do with Inanna and going through seven gates or something like that.

05:54:01 Speaker_01
And I ended up wondering if that was a precursor to in the later Hermetic and Hellenistic tradition, they ended up developing this thing about the seven-zone sphere and about the soul descending through the seven planetary spheres before birth and then reascending through the spheres after death.

05:54:19 Speaker_01
And there was some sort of weird continuum of this number of seven. So it's interesting hearing that.

05:54:25 Speaker_00
Yeah, that's a really good tie in. So there's other corroborating things that make me lean towards the Pisces Rising. I mean, one just Pisces Rising, just more tendency towards spirituality in a broad, broad sense.

05:54:40 Speaker_00
But her father was supposedly a wealthy merchant, which would have been Jupiter ruling the first and the fourth, even though it's a night chart.

05:54:49 Speaker_00
If it switched to Aries rising, it would have been the moon ruling the fourth placed in the sixth, which doesn't sound nearly as like wealthy merchant. She also had long periods of time when she was chronically ill.

05:55:02 Speaker_00
And with the Pisces rising chart, even though she has Venus in the first there.

05:55:05 Speaker_00
It would be a night chart Saturn overcoming the first house and also opposing the Ascendant ruler and both of those are really, you know, can lend themselves to like chronic ill health things that are long and drawn out, not like the Mars type of

05:55:20 Speaker_00
you know, injuries and accidents. Usually the Saturn ailments for health in night charts are more long and drawn out chronic things that are depleting. And she was like paralyzed for three years.

05:55:31 Speaker_00
She was just kind of like worn out after that and go like frail. Sounds more like a Saturn night chart thing to me.

05:55:39 Speaker_00
Granted, if it was 530, there would be a question of whether it was a day or night chart, and Saturn would still be opposing the Ascendant ruler then, but it would not be doubling up Saturn also overcoming the Ascendant.

05:55:54 Speaker_00
So there's kind of a double whammy here for health that I'm kind of persuaded by with the Pisces rising.

05:56:00 Speaker_03
I have to imagine that someone with Venus rising on the Ascendant is not a sort of a yes man, so to speak.

05:56:07 Speaker_03
Like this is someone who would want things to be done a different way, who would be in some way would be altering practices, opinions, or putting a very sort of personal stamp on something that's otherwise very sort of codified.

05:56:28 Speaker_03
Like, was she rebellious? Did she provoke society? Or was it all much more sort of well-integrated from the start? Which person are we talking about again? The Venus retrograde on the Ascendant.

05:56:45 Speaker_00
Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, she had a whole like reformation that she was part of, but it was like, interestingly, it was a reformation to be more strict, for her order to be more strict.

05:56:53 Speaker_03
Okay, no, I mean, it can still be that, but yeah, yeah.

05:56:57 Speaker_00
Yeah. I was trying to talk through the Saturn too because Saturn in the 10th could easily lend itself towards being the leader of something that is strict, right? But then Aries rising would put Saturn in the 9th. I don't know.

05:57:11 Speaker_00
I'm much more leaning towards the Pisces rising personally.

05:57:14 Speaker_01
I'm fascinated by this discussion of the rectification of this 16th century saints chart. It's been a long day, and I think we have a few more charts we have to get through.

05:57:27 Speaker_01
So you can't just pop in and start rectification things at midnight and then dip out. Nick and I still have a few more charts to get through unless you're volunteering to stay up tonight and continue the rest with us.

05:57:44 Speaker_00
No, it's a little late here.

05:57:46 Speaker_01
All right, well then I think we can curtail the rest of the rectification discussion and just say you have some good reasons for thinking she has the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house, but you're leaving it to the listeners to research and find out more.

05:57:59 Speaker_00
Yeah, I would actually love to hear from if anyone studied her life more closely, because she's famous, you know, amongst certain circles. So maybe other people can help confirm or deny that.

05:58:09 Speaker_00
But it sounded awful lot like the meditative fourth house thing going on again with the Ascender ruler.

05:58:16 Speaker_03
I'm reading a lot of Spanish history these days, and she would have been alive just at the dawn of Spain and its colonial era, et cetera, et cetera. So maybe I'll come across her. And maybe someday over tea, we talk about rectifying her chart.

05:58:34 Speaker_00
That sounds good.

05:58:35 Speaker_03
All right.

05:58:36 Speaker_01
I would appreciate that. All right. But otherwise, that would be a good example because that would round out.

05:58:42 Speaker_01
Basically, you almost had a trifecta or quadrifecta or whatever five version is because that would have been the Christian saint to complement the mystics that were focused on Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and even psychology. Nice work. Nice job.

05:59:05 Speaker_01
If anybody else... Very good. All right. And then you have one last example, which is a funny one that you found.

05:59:13 Speaker_00
I have the silliest example to finish this out.

05:59:16 Speaker_01
To round out this section.

05:59:17 Speaker_00
Yes, which sounds a little bit like a departure. But anyway, this is Joseph Pilates. He had Virgo rising, Mercury in Sagittarius in the fourth, along with the Sun in Sagittarius in the fourth. He was the founder of the Pilates method of exercise.

05:59:34 Speaker_00
And this was after I was talking with you, Chris, and you were like, well, if you really feel strongly about this section, could you find some more chart examples that have an inner focus? And late at night, I texted this.

05:59:49 Speaker_00
And I was like, so you know how Pilates, there's a really strong emphasis on strengthening and stabilizing the core?

05:59:56 Speaker_01
core strength.

05:59:58 Speaker_00
Yes, core strength. I was like, I think it's literally the most innermost muscles in your body, right? And yeah, so his method was initially called controlology. It's known for its focus on core strength, flexibility, postural alignment.

06:00:17 Speaker_00
And he believed that achieving a physical and mental well-being through controlled movements that emphasize precision, breath, and concentration.

06:00:27 Speaker_00
But it is a hilarious version of the Ascender Ruler and the Fourth, which is a focus on the physically innermost part of one's being.

06:00:35 Speaker_01
That's brilliant. So it's literally about your core, not metaphorically like all of the other spiritual seekers that we've been seeing in this section. It's literally about the core of your physical body?

06:00:49 Speaker_00
Yes, right. The concrete core, not the spiritual core, not the searching core, your muscular core.

06:00:55 Speaker_01
CB Right.

06:00:56 Speaker_01
So if you sat down with this person and you were trying to do a consultation with them and you're like, I think that you're very focused on inward seeking perhaps of a spiritual nature and striving towards uncovering things about your central core.

06:01:11 Speaker_01
And he would be like, you're right, but not quite, almost got it.

06:01:17 Speaker_03
Yeah, exactly. And I love that a guy with Uranus rising literally died on his 84th birthday. Oh, good. Oh, wow.

06:01:26 Speaker_04
Which is a Uranus return.

06:01:28 Speaker_03
He died December 9th, 1967 on his Uranus return, yeah.

06:01:31 Speaker_04
That's striking.

06:01:32 Speaker_01
Peacefully in his bed, or was he hit by a train, or what? He was doing Pilates. No, I don't know what he was doing. A free core accident.

06:01:42 Speaker_03
Saturn happened to be stationing on his Aries moon that day as well, so I don't know. I mean, when you die at 84, it's not necessarily something sinister.

06:01:50 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. All right, good times. Well, and I think this is, despite being a joke, one points to something more fundamental, which is that the 4th house is under the Earth and it's what's below our feet.

06:02:07 Speaker_01
But in terms of the Earth and everything else, what's under that is the core of the Earth itself.

06:02:15 Speaker_01
There's something about that that all of these, especially in this section, have gravitated towards because they're trying to get down to the bottom of something.

06:02:25 Speaker_01
They're trying to investigate and get underneath the surface level of things and get down to what the fundamental or what the core principles are of some of their different religious or metaphysical or spiritual beliefs and pursuits.

06:02:40 Speaker_01
And so that's actually something that makes this not just a joke thing, but actually because it's pointing to the underlying principle of something about what the fourth house actually is.

06:02:49 Speaker_00
Yeah, metaphorically, it's exactly the same. It's just like a different specific focus, but it's just like trying to seek what is most inward and what is at the core of anything, anything that someone's trying to do.

06:03:03 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah, for sure. All right. Brilliant.

06:03:07 Speaker_03
Well, that is the end of this section on the integral- Way to breeze in and bring in the best part of the show.

06:03:15 Speaker_01
Just knock it out of the park and just land five three-pointer basketball shots. And then you just drop the microphone and take off and go to bed, whereas Nick and I, we got two more sections to go. So we got work to do. All right.

06:03:35 Speaker_01
Well, thank you so much for contributing that section as well as a bunch of other research that has already either appeared in this episode or that will appear in the next part in the rulers of the houses sections.

06:03:46 Speaker_00
Yeah. And I have a few more examples in the section I think you'll be talking about tonight, but I trust that you will discuss them responsibly.

06:03:53 Speaker_01
I will do my best. I'll do my best to stop Nick from making jokes about them. Yeah.

06:03:59 Speaker_03
All my examples are silly ones. So there you go. I take the serious ones and silly them up. Thank you, Lisa. I'll do my best to behave. All right.

06:04:06 Speaker_01
All right. Cool. Yeah. Thanks for joining us. Hopefully we'll see about future appearances, but otherwise, yeah, we'll see you again soon and let's take a little bit of a break.

06:04:16 Speaker_01
you're a fan of the podcast and you'd like to support the production of future episodes, then consider becoming a patron through my page on patreon.com.

06:04:24 Speaker_01
In exchange, you'll get access to a bunch of benefits such as early access to new episodes, the ability to attend live recordings, access to the monthly electional astrology podcast, access to another exclusive podcast called the Secret Astrology Podcast that's only available to patrons, or even get your name listed in the credits at the end of each episode.

06:04:44 Speaker_01
For more information, visit patreon.com slash astrology podcast. All right, we're back from break, and we're going to start the next section. We're going to focus on the topic that has to do with the past.

06:04:57 Speaker_01
And this is a topic, while it doesn't come up in a lot of traditional texts, it's something that I've seen come up pretty frequently, and I think it gets tied into things like

06:05:07 Speaker_01
ancestry, especially, and we've seen in some of the traditional texts, as we've seen some instances of this already, and especially in the last section, one of the people that Lisa shared who was a historian.

06:05:21 Speaker_01
So I wanted to share some other examples that are in a similar vein in order to really draw that out, where sometimes people that have the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house could be drawn to study the past for various reasons.

06:05:36 Speaker_01
All right, so my first example of this is a writer and historian and astrologer named Michael Badgend.

06:05:49 Speaker_01
So Michael was an astrologer and writer, an author who had Cancer rising and the Moon in Libra in the 4th whole sign house conjunct Neptune, and the ruler of the 4th house itself is Venus, which was in Aries in the 10th house. So

06:06:10 Speaker_01
Michael was primarily known as the author of a book, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, which is the book that inspired the fiction book The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown that became so popular in the 2000s.

06:06:28 Speaker_01
and Holy Blood, Holy Grail proposed a controversial theory that Jesus Christ was an actual historical person who survived the crucifixion, married Mary Magdalene, and fathered a bloodline that continues to this day.

06:06:46 Speaker_01
So Bagent and his other co-authors claim that this lineage was protected by a secret society called the Priory of Sion, and that the Holy Grail is not a physical object, but rather was a metaphor for this sacred bloodline.

06:07:04 Speaker_01
This book further suggests that this secret has been suppressed by the Catholic Church to maintain its power and authority.

06:07:13 Speaker_01
So about Bajend's background, he was the father of a devout Roman Catholic, and he was tutored in Catholic theology from the age of five.

06:07:24 Speaker_01
But afterwards, his father left the family when Bajend was only eight years old, and he went to live with his maternal grandfather and adopted his grandfather's surname. At that point, his grandfather was named Louis Bajend.

06:07:39 Speaker_01
So his great-grandfather served as a city mayor and had founded a forestry business.

06:07:48 Speaker_01
And initially, Bagehot intended on studying science and intended to continue the family career of forestry, but he switched to studying comparative religion and philosophy.

06:07:59 Speaker_01
So he ended up collaborating a lot with his friend Richard Lee, who he co-authored Holy Blood, Holy Grail with. And one thing that's really interesting is that he focused on this theory that he became associated with, with Holy Blood, Holy Grail.

06:08:17 Speaker_01
But he was also an astrologer, and he actually wrote an early book on Mesopotamian astrology, which is actually still one of the two best books that I often recommend on Mesopotamian astrology.

06:08:29 Speaker_01
He also had a focus on ancient astrology, and he also co-authored a book on mundane astrology with Nicholas Campion.

06:08:38 Speaker_01
which is another interesting thing, which is the astrology of nations and countries, which I think is another manifestation of his ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house.

06:08:49 Speaker_03
That's the one I know him best for. That's a good book.

06:08:52 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah. I don't remember the title, but I think it has a title that's actually fitting with that as well.

06:09:00 Speaker_03
Mundane Astrology, Introduction to the Astrology of Nations and Groups.

06:09:09 Speaker_01
Yeah, so I think that's pretty good, the astrology of nations with the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house.

06:09:15 Speaker_01
All right, one other interesting fact about Michael Bajan was that he also became at some point in his life involved, he became a member of the Freemasons,

06:09:26 Speaker_01
And he actually ended up taking on a leadership role as a Grand Officer of the United Grand Lodge of England.

06:09:35 Speaker_01
So he's actually taking a major leadership role as a Freemason and as part of this secret society or quasi-secret society, which is another aspect of having the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house that I found really interesting and really fascinating.

06:09:50 Speaker_01
So he wasn't just writing books about secret societies, but he was also to some extent involved in one. So yeah, I think that's really it, but I was fascinated by the focus on bloodlines and things like that.

06:10:07 Speaker_01
His work is often criticized as not being historically accurate, and so I don't know and I'm not vouching for the accuracy of any of this. The Moon was also conjunct Neptune in the fourth house, so it's like

06:10:20 Speaker_01
sometimes that can be not quite as historically grounded in certain facts as it could be. I don't really know.

06:10:28 Speaker_01
But just the fact that he did focus on especially history, on ancient bloodlines, on secret societies, and on ancient astrology, I think makes him a really fascinating figure as somebody who had the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house.

06:10:46 Speaker_01
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right. So moving on, my next example is. a Mexican painter and artist named Miguel Corvubias. He has or had Virgo rising with Mercury in Sagittarius in the fourth whole sign house.

06:11:20 Speaker_01
And he was known as a Mexican painter, caricaturist, and illustrator. But later in his life, he actually essentially became an anthropologist and an art historian, especially later when he stopped doing caricature work.

06:11:39 Speaker_01
He transitioned into becoming an anthropologist who wrote some pretty notable books. In particular, he became deeply interested in the art of earlier Mesoamerican cultures, and he also did some anthropological work on Bali.

06:11:56 Speaker_01
But it was his work on Mesoamerican art that became really interesting and really influential because he possessed this really profound understanding and appreciation of art

06:12:12 Speaker_01
and also this interest in looking back into the past and looking back into past cultural history, particularly pre-Columbian and indigenous art forms prior to Columbus's arrival.

06:12:26 Speaker_01
So he studied art extensively and he traveled throughout Mexico and other parts of the world to observe and document different artistic traditions.

06:12:35 Speaker_01
In particular, he developed an expertise in Olmec art and recognized its unique characteristics and historical significance, and eventually wrote a book about it.

06:12:47 Speaker_01
What's interesting is that his book, Indian Art of Mexico and Central America, is still considered a seminal work on the subject that showcased his really deep knowledge and insightful analysis of Olmec artistic styles.

06:13:03 Speaker_01
I love this because he didn't have academic training as an anthropologist or as a historian, but instead he was just somebody who

06:13:13 Speaker_01
was deeply focused on art and had a deep appreciation of art, as well as the ability to look at art and be able to say some really insightful things about it, and was able to develop a reputation just on the basis of the work that he did.

06:13:33 Speaker_03
Oh, I was just going to say it. It's really fourth house because the Olmec civilization is very, very old. I believe it's the oldest one we know of in North America or in the Americas. It is basically Mexico, present day Mexico.

06:13:52 Speaker_03
We're talking super old, super mysterious. I mean, we call them the Olmecs. We don't know who they were.

06:13:58 Speaker_03
But so it's not just like, you know, researching, say, the Maya, who, you know, were only a few hundred years old to him, but a really, really ancient civilization that have left these, you know, artifacts behind.

06:14:16 Speaker_03
And we have no clues to their origin or destiny or anything like that. So it's very fourth house. It's very, it's way, it's digging way back in the past.

06:14:26 Speaker_01
CB Right. Yeah, totally. So he's really good about focusing on the contextualization of art where he didn't just describe art, but he was really good at placing it within its cultural and historical context.

06:14:39 Speaker_01
One of the notes I wrote is that he explored the relationship between art and society, and he examined how art reflects the beliefs, the values, and the traditions of different cultures.

06:14:52 Speaker_01
So his writings and artistic interpretations influenced the way that scholars and the public perceived Olmec art and other pre-Columbian art forms, and he helped to elevate the status of these artistic traditions, as well as promote a greater appreciation for their aesthetic and cultural value.

06:15:10 Speaker_01
So yeah, he was a really cool guy, and I think I really liked this because he's from Mexico. There's this element of going back and researching to the oldest tradition, like ancient roots and things like that.

06:15:29 Speaker_01
But I just love it also because he's somebody that didn't have that training. It's not like necessarily like a ninth house thing for him that he went to college to study this.

06:15:38 Speaker_01
But instead, it came from his appreciation of art and his career as an artist, but also having this orientation towards the past and interest in history and desire to go back and get to the roots of the different artistic traditions that he was involved in seemed to really motivate a lot of his work.

06:15:59 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. I know he was friends with Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera and that he spent some time in Europe and had a fair amount of notoriety there as an artist before he went into his historical work and stuff.

06:16:11 Speaker_03
He's a, yeah, he's an interesting figure to study. And, you know, like Kahlo and Rivera coming out of the Mexican Revolution with this sort of renewed sense of a Mexican history that goes, like you said, pre-Columbian.

06:16:28 Speaker_03
I think it's all there in that story. I'm very keen to read more about him.

06:16:34 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, for sure. I was excited to see that we had a birth time for him when I was doing this research and looking for historians who had the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house or their fourth house placements.

06:16:45 Speaker_01
And one of the things that's also nice as an aspect of this is just that it's something that he got into and really focused on later in his career after becoming a successful artist and caricature artist especially

06:16:58 Speaker_01
I see that sometimes where there's different parts of a person's chart that don't get activated until later on, and then you're kind of surprised.

06:17:08 Speaker_01
Or some people see it as a non sequitur if they're not astrologers and they're just looking at a person's career objectively as somebody who's a fan of their early work.

06:17:19 Speaker_01
For example, I noticed this recently with Conan O'Brien, who is a famous late-night television show host, but he has The Ruler of the Ascendant in the 9th house.

06:17:30 Speaker_01
In the past year, he launched essentially a travel show where he goes around different countries and does a travel comedy show.

06:17:38 Speaker_01
which almost looks like a non-sequitur, except it's actually described in his chart very well, having the ruler of the Ascendant in the ninth house of foreign travel in foreign countries.

06:17:46 Speaker_01
It's interesting sometimes seeing a person like that grow into things or do things that are indicated by their chart later on in life. I think this is another example of that with this person.

06:17:59 Speaker_03
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Conan's chart. Patrick and I had a lot of fun talking about it once on a live stream.

06:18:06 Speaker_03
The other thing about Conan that's very, you know, ruler of the Ascendant in the ninth is, he went to Harvard, he was an editor of the Harvard Review.

06:18:14 Speaker_03
He sometimes felt like later in his career that that would sort of get in the way of him being taken seriously as a comedian. He's got a very funny story about when he started his talk show,

06:18:24 Speaker_03
He had like a warm-up comedian and he wasn't paying attention to what the warm-up comedian was saying.

06:18:30 Speaker_03
And the warm-up comedian was going out and telling audiences every night that, you know, Conan comes from Harvard and he's written these, you know, an academic paper on this and that.

06:18:37 Speaker_03
And Conan's like, oh, come on, I want them to think I'm funny, not some egghead. So I think sometimes he's, you know, felt embarrassed by it, but yeah, he's a really smart guy. And his podcast is as good as his talk show was.

06:18:52 Speaker_02
Yeah.

06:18:52 Speaker_01
He was actually the editor of the Harvard Lampoon while he was at Harvard, so he actually played a major role there at college.

06:19:01 Speaker_01
We see that ninth house focus earlier in his life, but it's interesting seeing him manifest a different aspect of that later on.

06:19:09 Speaker_01
And I think that's important for people to understand that the same placement can manifest in different ways during different eras of a person's life.

06:19:19 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think his travel thing, at least one of the travel things he's doing is like he has fans write to him from around the world and he like drops in on them.

06:19:26 Speaker_03
So like, you know, some guy in Sweden or whatever, and suddenly Conan is knocking on his door. I know that's one of the things he's doing, which is pretty funny.

06:19:35 Speaker_01
All right, moving on.

06:19:38 Speaker_01
The next example I want to share is the birth chart of Michel Gauquelin, who was a famous astrologer, but also for our purposes was a famous birth data collector where he set out to do the largest scale statistical studies, scientific studies on astrology that have ever been done up to this point, especially in the 20th century when he was doing it in the second half of the 20th century.

06:20:03 Speaker_01
And he was born with Leo rising and the Sun in Scorpio in the fourth whole sign house along with Mercury and the degree of the IC.

06:20:11 Speaker_01
And what I think is interesting and important about this is that in order to do these large-scale statistical studies they wanted to do to test astrology scientifically, he wanted to test birth charts. So that meant he needed data for this.

06:20:27 Speaker_01
So he initiated the largest scale collection of birth data that had been done up to that point in history.

06:20:36 Speaker_01
He especially focused on his own native country of France, because France is a country where birth certificates and birth times are available to the public.

06:20:49 Speaker_01
So as a result of that, he especially focused on collecting birth data from France and then running statistical studies on these thousands and thousands of charts until eventually he started coming up with some results such as the famous Mars effect, which I've done an entire episode talking about.

06:21:08 Speaker_01
But I thought it was really interesting that for him, I think what we're seeing here is

06:21:14 Speaker_01
the researcher, the person who's trying to get to the bottom of things, but also somebody who's doing birth data and ancestry research to the extent that that comes up when it comes to the fourth house. Yeah, no, exactly.

06:21:30 Speaker_03
Yeah. It's another gathering and collecting of things. And reaching back in the past and trying to bring to light the unknown, I think. Michel Gauclin being the Vanna White of astrological data, going out there and revealing it to us.

06:21:51 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah, so what's interesting though is I found another example of this in another famous birthdata collector who is Francis McAvoy. Francis had Aries rising and Mars in Cancer in the fourth whole sign house along with Pluto and the IC.

06:22:11 Speaker_01
What's interesting about Francis is that Francis was from Massachusetts and from the Boston area in particular.

06:22:19 Speaker_01
What's interesting about Massachusetts is that Massachusetts in the US is rare because it's also an open state where birth data records are public, and all you have to do is go down to a local

06:22:33 Speaker_01
what it is, like government building and request a piece of birth data, and then they'll provide it to you. What's fascinating about this is if you're doing birth data research using Astro Data Bank these days,

06:22:47 Speaker_01
you'll frequently come across charts of really obscure things. When I was doing the second house episode, I was searching for lottery winners, and a bunch of lottery winners kept coming up that were all from Massachusetts.

06:23:02 Speaker_01
I eventually realized what was happening is every time Frances would see somebody in the local news who had won the lottery, she would walk down and get their birth data in order to see what it was in their birth chart.

06:23:14 Speaker_01
So I think she's another interesting case because it's research, it's ancestry and genealogy to a certain extent, but there's also a major local component to it.

06:23:26 Speaker_01
For Michel Gauquelin, it was France especially, and for Francis, it's Massachusetts and Boston, especially where she's from. So there's this

06:23:35 Speaker_01
local element to it as well, but it becomes part of their lasting legacy, especially to the extent that astrologers like you or me are still using birth data that they originally found.

06:23:47 Speaker_03
Yeah, I've done the trip to the Boston office. I mean, for me, for Montreal, Vermont is also an open state for birth certificates. Vermont's even easier than Massachusetts.

06:23:58 Speaker_03
In Vermont, it's like walking into a library and looking through the microfiche.

06:24:02 Speaker_03
And then, yeah, you go to Massachusetts and you look through some index cards and find the people you're looking for and break down the numbers and give it to the officials. Not local for me, but it's an important part of what we do.

06:24:18 Speaker_03
It's so awesome that Frances was living close by for that long and got us that much, because we sure have a lot from her.

06:24:25 Speaker_01
All right. Well, that actually brings us to the end of this section.

06:24:28 Speaker_01
It's just a brief section on the past and these themes of history and historians and people that do that type of research of going back to the past, but I think that's sufficient to have made the point.

06:24:38 Speaker_01
All right, so now we're ready to begin the final section of this treatment of the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house.

06:24:46 Speaker_01
We're going to talk about a topic that's more obscure in modern astrology, not usually emphasized as much, but it was actually a major factor in ancient astrology, which is the association of the fourth house with death and matters that happen after a person dies.

06:25:05 Speaker_01
So just to reiterate some of those basic significations, in some of the ancient texts, we have significations like old age, end of life, by extension, endings, or the end of matters in general, which metaphorically is like the final resting place of things.

06:25:24 Speaker_01
But also in ancient texts, in the medieval tradition, it came to be associated with posthumous things or matters after death. well as with burial and graves, and other things in connection with funerals and things like that.

06:25:43 Speaker_01
The very first example of this that I wanted to share is a pretty heavy one, but it's a pretty notable one from American history, and that's the birth chart of Emmett Till.

06:25:53 Speaker_01
who was born with Aquarius rising and Saturn in Taurus in the fourth whole sign house in a night chart.

06:26:05 Speaker_01
Emmett Till was a 14-year-old African American boy from Chicago who was brutally murdered in Mississippi in 1955 after being accused of whistling at a white woman during a time when segregation and other things like that were still very, very prominent, especially in the South.

06:26:28 Speaker_01
So his horrific death and the subsequent acquittal of his killers actually sparked national outrage, and it served as a catalyst for the civil rights movement.

06:26:40 Speaker_01
Because one of the things that happened is after he was brutally murdered, his mother insisted on having an open casket funeral in order to force America essentially to confront the brutal reality of racism and the effects of it.

06:27:01 Speaker_01
A photographer was there and took the picture of his essentially badly mutilated corpse, and then that picture was publicized in newspapers, and it became a national

06:27:19 Speaker_01
focal point for the civil rights movement, so much so that one of the things you reminded me of the other night, Nick, is that Rosa Parks said that she was actually thinking of Emmett Till when she refused to give up her seat on the bus in Montgomery, Alabama on December 1, 1955, in the same year in which Till was actually murdered.

06:27:47 Speaker_01
His death and his funeral ended up having a major impact on the course of American history at that point, especially in terms of the civil rights movement.

06:28:02 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, certainly Rosa Parks on the bus, that's maybe four months after his murder. But there's even more long-standing legacy that he leaves.

06:28:14 Speaker_03
Because, for instance, he was about six months older than Muhammad Ali, who was still a young kid named Cassius Clay when all this happened. But as Ali himself became a really important figure in the ongoing civil rights struggle,

06:28:32 Speaker_03
in the 60s and 70s, he had a sense of Till being, like he could have been Till, they were the same age, he could see himself in Emmett Till.

06:28:45 Speaker_03
And there are other people as well, the young African-Americans who started the Black Panthers, Huey Newton was only about six months younger than Emmett Till, a lot of people from that era, from that movement were right around that age range.

06:29:00 Speaker_03
So I think that a lot of them could see themselves in Emmett Till, like this is something that could have happened to me. And so yeah, there's this very, very longstanding impact of that crime.

06:29:15 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah, and it's a really tough setup in terms of his chart just because it's Aquarius rising, Saturn's the ruler of the Ascendant, it's in the fourth house, and it's a night chart.

06:29:27 Speaker_01
So it's like the most difficult planet is the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house and just suffering a really terrible death.

06:29:41 Speaker_01
And I was looking at the transits just now and noticed that one of the things that this is an example of in terms of the rulers of the houses that I thought about is that the ruler of the fourth house is Venus, which is located in the seventh house of other people.

06:29:57 Speaker_01
And of course, over the past few years, over the past decade, the woman that accused him of whistling at her or hitting on her or whatever, who ended up being essentially the cause of his death,

06:30:12 Speaker_01
directly or indirectly is still alive or was still alive until relatively recently. And so people would comment on that recently that this woman still lived this full life, whereas his was cut short so tragically.

06:30:28 Speaker_01
And in some ways, it's striking that the ruler of the fourth is in the seventh and it describes the circumstances to some extent.

06:30:38 Speaker_03
Yeah. And all the more so, you notice that Till has the sun conjunct Pluto. And by the time he was 14, Pluto was now on his descendant, basically conjunct both the moon and Venus, certainly close enough. And to my mind, that speaks to this, you know,

06:30:59 Speaker_03
scandalous testimony that was leveled against him. And there's another context to all this, too, that we haven't introduced into the story. Till was from Chicago, but his mother was from Mississippi originally.

06:31:15 Speaker_03
And so he was down in Mississippi on his summer vacation visiting family.

06:31:21 Speaker_03
And so, you know, first of all, there's fourth house enough in that, like literally when Till was abducted by his murderers, you know, it's not like he was walking down the street and they, you know, drove up and threw him in the back of a car.

06:31:34 Speaker_03
They went to his family's house and demanded from, I think it's his uncle or his grandfather, that he be handed over. So literally, I mean, the killers just brazenly went right to his front door and said, you know, give us that kid.

06:31:47 Speaker_03
And there's also, because Saturn is sort of the collision of these two cultures, urban Chicago and rural Mississippi, Emmett's mother had warned him, when you go to Mississippi, don't act the way you do in Chicago. It was imparted to him that he was

06:32:10 Speaker_03
you know, entering a different culture into a different place. It's very Saturn-Uranus when you have these two sort of incongruent set of values that have to somehow coexist or can't coexist.

06:32:23 Speaker_03
So I think that's also, you know, a part of our system as well. Okay.

06:32:27 Speaker_01
Yeah, that Pluto transit is something I noticed because his Ascendant ruler, Saturn, is at 26 degrees of Taurus.

06:32:35 Speaker_01
And the day he died, Pluto was at 2645 Leo in his 7th house, so it was almost exactly squaring the ruler of his Ascendant while Pluto was also conjunct his Descendant and Venus within a degree or two as well.

06:32:52 Speaker_01
And then you mentioned his son Pluto conjunction at two and three degrees of Leo, and Uranus had recently ingressed into Leo into his 7th house.

06:33:02 Speaker_01
So obviously, there's so much going on in the chart, but the 4th house and the ruler of the 4th house, Venus, are major focal points of it. And of course, he's one instance

06:33:16 Speaker_01
that we'll see some of, of people who in some ways become more famous in death or whose death ends up impacting the world in a way that almost is more major in terms of their contribution to the world in general than even some of the things that they did while they were alive.

06:33:38 Speaker_01
So Yeah, I think maybe that's good for that initial example. So let's move on and look at the next one. This is the birth chart of Jeff Buckley. This one was Lisa's special study.

06:33:56 Speaker_01
It was also sent in by a few other people who submitted it, and then I know it's also one that you've taken a special interest in for quite a while now as well. So I'll set it up real quick and then let you take it.

06:34:11 Speaker_01
So Jeff Buckley was born with Leo rising and the Sun in Scorpio in the 4th whole sign house, along with the stellium of planets, including the degree of the IC, the South Node, Neptune, Mercury, the Sun, and Venus, all obviously in the night chart in the 4th whole sign house.

06:34:34 Speaker_01
So

06:34:36 Speaker_01
of the things about him is that he was a young, up-and-coming musician who was in his 20s, and he had released one album that was somewhat successful in his 20s, but then he ended up dying tragically at his first Saturn return at the age of 30 after

06:34:59 Speaker_01
was working on his second album. One day, he was with a friend, and he went for a swim where he had all of his clothes on.

06:35:08 Speaker_01
He went for a swim in a river, and then a boat went by and the undertow accidentally pulled him under, and he ended up drowning in this freak accident at the age of 30.

06:35:22 Speaker_01
So he's somebody who's notable because he died at a tragically young age, and he has this large fourth house emphasis in his chart. He's also significant for a few other reasons. One of them is that

06:35:39 Speaker_01
I was watching a biography the other day, and it said that he became more well-known in the years after he died than he was when he was actually alive, partially because his mother

06:35:54 Speaker_01
inherited his estate, and then she continued to push to release his music. More of his music was actually released after he died than music that was released when he was actually alive.

06:36:06 Speaker_01
At one point, a cover that he did of Leonard Cohen's song, Hallelujah,

06:36:18 Speaker_01
was sung on American Idol in 2008, and this caused his song to suddenly shoot up the charts and become really popular again, reaching number one on Billboard's Hot Digital Songs in 2008, a full 11 years after his death.

06:36:37 Speaker_01
So this is somebody that becomes even more famous after he has died, subsequent to his death, with a full stellium in the fourth house.

06:36:49 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. There is so much that is fourth house in this story. The thing to start with, really, is to go to the beginning. Jeff Buckley was the son of Tim Buckley, who was a fairly popular singer-songwriter in the late 60s, early 70s.

06:37:08 Speaker_03
Like Jeff, Tim Buckley had a sort of angelic voice with a very wide range. And Jeff was conceived, I think, just before Tim recorded his first or second album. It was very early in his career. He was only just starting his recording career.

06:37:33 Speaker_03
Jeff's mother is named Mary Gouibert. She's a Pisces, and we know this because Tim Buckley wrote a song called I Never Asked to Be Your Mountain, which is a song that Tim wrote to Mary to say that even though she was

06:37:48 Speaker_03
with his child, that he was not going to be there for her, that he was going to go his own way and try to pursue his music career, and that he wasn't going to try to be a father to the child. And yeah, in the lyric, he refers to Mary being a Pisces.

06:38:04 Speaker_01
So that's really heavy. That's like the father of the owner of this chart wrote a song to his mother about not being there and about leaving to be a musician, basically.

06:38:22 Speaker_03
Right. I never asked to be your mountain. I mean, it kind of speaks for itself in the sort of rejection of this important moment. So yeah, Jeff was raised by a single mother. Tim Buckley's career went from strength to strength.

06:38:43 Speaker_03
I mean, he is sort of a cult artist, but he was a known singer. He wasn't like a huge star, but he was known and reasonably successful.

06:38:54 Speaker_01
The father was?

06:38:55 Speaker_03
The father, Tim, yeah. So when Jeff was seven, His mother, she hadn't seen Tim basically since Jeff was very small, but she noticed that Tim was playing a concert somewhere nearby in Orange County. And so she brought Jeff to the concert.

06:39:16 Speaker_03
I think he was eight at the time. And Jeff got to meet Tim and it was a nice meeting and Jeff seems to have been excited about it.

06:39:27 Speaker_03
And then just a few months later, Tim died accidentally of a heroin overdose, apparently, you know, using too strong a dose or something of that nature. So Tim was lost.

06:39:40 Speaker_03
And Jeff just had this one memory of, you know, a father that he enjoyed meeting, but he grew up listening to Tim's records. And as it turned out, Jeff had a lot of musical talent himself. when he graduated from high school, he went to a music school.

06:39:55 Speaker_03
So he was a very like skilled, trained musician. And he did go out and just sort of work as a musician. There's a funny story. Jeff Buckley at one point was in a country band with Danny Carey, the drummer from Tool.

06:40:08 Speaker_03
They played in the country and Western like as a job, things like that. But when Jeff- Lisa has a note saying that,

06:40:17 Speaker_01
that Jeff, at age five, he began playing guitar when he discovered an acoustic guitar in his grandmother's closet?

06:40:25 Speaker_03
Yeah. And he had natural talent. And he went to this music school. And then when he was 24, he was living in California. He had grown up in California.

06:40:35 Speaker_03
But across the country in New York City, this guy, Hal Wilner, who was a figure in the music world, he would make a lot of like really interesting compilation albums and hold these strange sort of concerts, theme concerts.

06:40:48 Speaker_03
And he was organizing a tribute concert to Tim Buckley, to the music of Tim Buckley. And so he's getting all these known performers to come in and play Tim Buckley's music. And so in the organizing of the concert, they found out, oh, Tim has a son.

06:41:05 Speaker_03
And, oh, you know, we should invite his son to his father's concert. And, oh, his son, you know, maybe 11. I mean, how bad could he be? And then Jeff ends up, they realize, oh, this guy's really good.

06:41:21 Speaker_01
It was the father's manager who nobody else, none of the father's other people associated with them even knew that he had had a son, but the father's manager did. And the father's manager is the one who reached out to Jeff.

06:41:39 Speaker_03
Right. Right. So it was, I mean, that was it. It was such a chance thing. And it wasn't, it wasn't with the thought at first that, Oh, you know, Jeff's a talented musician. It was just like, Oh, let's have his son, you know, be invited to the concert.

06:41:50 Speaker_03
But then they realize how talented he is. And, um, you mentioned that, um, Jeff's mother handles his estate and she has released Most of them are really, really good.

06:42:05 Speaker_03
But there's one recording that she's actually withdrawn from circulation, and it's a recording of Jeff performing at this tribute concert. Back in the Napster days, you know, 1999-2000, I had recordings of these. I don't think I still do.

06:42:21 Speaker_03
But Jeff performed three songs at this Tim Buckley tribute concert. The first song he sang was, I Never Asked to Be Your Mountain. And then the other two songs are sort of relevant as well to They're relevant to the son missing the father, let's say.

06:42:42 Speaker_01
So he performed the song at the tribute concert for his father that his father wrote to his mother about abandoning the son and the mother, basically?

06:42:54 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, it's a stunning, like the context is stunning. And the fact that, I mean, it's a very, it's not a song just that anyone can sing. Tim Buckley and Jeff Buckley have this like very wide vocal range and they can go very high.

06:43:10 Speaker_03
So, I mean, you know, the fact that he could sing it at all was startling. The fact that he could, I would say, sing it better than his father was all the more startling. So really it was kind of this

06:43:23 Speaker_03
Yeah, it was this, you know, sort of magical moment. Suddenly everyone there realized like, oh, Tim's son is the real deal. You know, this guy's really amazing.

06:43:38 Speaker_01
everybody there went from not knowing that he existed and that the father had had a son to all of a sudden through this performance, like everybody is blown away by the musical show. Right.

06:43:51 Speaker_01
And Lisa has this quote from him where he talks about this performance and he says, it wasn't my work, it wasn't my life, but it bothered me that I hadn't been able to be I hadn't been to his funeral, that I'd never been able to tell him anything.

06:44:08 Speaker_01
I used that show to pay my last respects.

06:44:12 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really something else. But I understand why he doesn't want it in circulation, because even though the performance is amazing, it was not easy for Jeff to do that. He had very, very mixed feelings about Tim.

06:44:30 Speaker_03
He certainly liked and respected Tim's musical talent. Tim Buckley was amazing. But obviously, like many abandoned children, there's this very strong resentment of the father. So yeah, very, very, very complicated picture. Yeah.

06:44:48 Speaker_01
And the concert though, ended up being Buckley's first major step into the music industry and became kind of like a full circle fourth house moment.

06:44:58 Speaker_03
Very much so, yeah. I mean, thanks to this concert, he's now, you know, there are record company people and other folks who are interested in him, you know.

06:45:08 Speaker_03
And he starts playing these solo shows in the East Village in New York at this little club that's like a pizza place, and gradually starts getting a following. And

06:45:22 Speaker_03
Then in 1993, he puts a band together, he gets a record contract, and he records this album, Grace, which is the album that has Hallelujah. And it's the one album that would be made and released in his lifetime.

06:45:37 Speaker_03
So he recorded this album, as he turned 27 in late 1993 and it was released in the summer of 1994. So he was also in a Scorpio perfection year, and Pluto happened to be conjunct his son in that solar return as well in that perfection year.

06:45:53 Speaker_03
And Grace as an album, you know, death is a major theme in that album. You know, he's got one song called Eternal Life. There's, of course, there's Hallelujah.

06:46:06 Speaker_03
But there are other songs that, you know, the title track, Grace, has a sort of forlorn, doomed quality to it. You know, it's all about death again. So, but I mean, just full on Scorpio fourth house themes throughout the music.

06:46:24 Speaker_03
He has the Scorpio stellium in the fourth house and his transits on his 27th birthday were very Scorpio heavy as well. So it just like everything was happening at once. He put his band together. Sorry.

06:46:37 Speaker_01
Yeah. Lisa has this quote from Brad Pitt that she said was evocative of Buckley's music and evoking fourth house imagery, where the quote was, quote, there's an undercurrent to his music. There's something you can't pinpoint.

06:46:52 Speaker_01
Like the best of films or the best of art, there's something going on underneath, and there's a truth there. And I find his stuff absolutely haunting. It's under my skin.

06:47:06 Speaker_01
And that's this quote that Lisa picked out that's really evocative of that fourth house placement in stellium there.

06:47:13 Speaker_03
Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that was a very fourth house about Jeff, unlike most Gen X musicians, Jeff was very well schooled in the history of music.

06:47:25 Speaker_03
So for instance, before he got that recording contract, when he was just playing that small place in the East Village, he would be playing music from the whole sort of 20th century tradition.

06:47:38 Speaker_03
He'd play like songs by Edith Piaf or really old blues songs alongside sort of contemporary things and things he'd written.

06:47:46 Speaker_03
And that was something that, I mean, in his short life and career, he was able to make music that in some ways spoke to the past, that was evocative of the past.

06:47:58 Speaker_03
And then towards the end of his life, he was making music that I think was very much in the vogue

06:48:06 Speaker_03
not as a deliberate attempt to be in style, but just he was drawn more to the music that was happening in the 90s, sort of more sort of experimental lo-fi type things, which is what you hear on the record that came out after he died.

06:48:21 Speaker_03
So he, but you know, for a lot of his recording career, there was, and even with things like recording Hallelujah or Corpus Christi Carol, another sort of old piece of music that he put on his first album.

06:48:35 Speaker_03
He was very, very connected to the music of the past. And yeah, there's a great recording of it.

06:48:41 Speaker_01
Sorry, go ahead. One of the things that Lisa was excited to find out is she found out that he was really into Sufi music. And there was some specifics.

06:48:49 Speaker_03
Yeah, Nusrat Ali Khan.

06:48:50 Speaker_01
Yeah.

06:48:51 Speaker_03
There's a singer named Nusrat Ali Khan, who, like Jeff, has this just spectacular range. And so Jeff was, I think, really drawn to the Sufi music in part because it was music that his particular talents could really play with and learn.

06:49:12 Speaker_03
He, Jeff had this amazing sort of range in his vocal, you know, capabilities. And so if you've heard Nusrat Ali Khan's music, you would understand the connection. You can see the influence clearly.

06:49:26 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. Lisa wrote that Buckley reportedly owned over 400 cassettes of their music, of this Sufi artist's music, and that you can actually Google it. If you Google Jeff Buckley, Qawwali, a video of his live EP will come up, and it's really cool.

06:49:48 Speaker_01
So just a callback to the previous Sufi chart example.

06:49:55 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, that's Jeff. He could be doing like hard rock and music, but then he could also do like an old Edith Piaf French ballad or Eastern Sufi music. I mean, that was him. He was a musician, capital M, very strong.

06:50:15 Speaker_01
Sorry, one last thing. Lisa has this quote where Buckley talks about Kuali and this Sufi singer's music and has emphasized some parts of it. It says, in between the world of the flesh and the world of the spirit is the void.

06:50:32 Speaker_01
The Qali is the messenger who leaps empty-handed into the abyss and returns carrying messages of love from the beloved.

06:50:40 Speaker_01
These messages have no words, per se, but at the high point of a Qali performance, they come in bursts of light into the hearts and minds of the members of the audience.

06:50:52 Speaker_01
Of course, by that time the whole house is either hanging from the rafters or dancing.

06:50:57 Speaker_01
This is called marafat, the inner knowledge, and it is the aim of the Qawwali tradition to bring the listener into this state, first through the beauty of the poetry and the weight of its meaning, and then eventually through the Qawwali's use of repetition, repeating the key phrases of the poem until this meaning has melted away to reveal the true form to the listener.

06:51:20 Speaker_01
So this is like a Jeff Buckley quote apparently of something he was just really into, which really is a nice manifestation of that ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house as well as all those other Scorpio planets there.

06:51:32 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah.

06:51:34 Speaker_03
And at the same time, not only is he describing Sufi music, he's also describing his own album, Grace, not deliberately, but I'd say like the same quality he's describing in Sufi music is present in that album, because it's also an album that it's almost, you know, even though obviously he was still alive when he recorded it, there's something about that album that is sort of like the Brad Pitt

06:51:59 Speaker_03
quote, it already feels like you're being sung to from the other world, from the netherworld, you know, that he's some phantom long past who's singing to you in your dreams or something like that.

06:52:11 Speaker_03
It is a very sort of particular quality that he has there. So, yeah, long story short, you know, he had this big smash album and he toured the world for nearly two years.

06:52:27 Speaker_03
And then he kind of felt, he was immediately making a break with the sort of the grace Jeff Buckley.

06:52:35 Speaker_03
Some of it was, I think he was, because he was touring, he was touring with his contemporaries, with his peers, and he was becoming a lot more aware of what musicians his age,

06:52:46 Speaker_03
were playing and listening to and influenced by, because up until this point, Jeff had really been sort of of the past, not just 60s music, but 20s music or 19th century music. And so now he was sort of like catching up with that.

06:53:02 Speaker_03
It's a very, it's kind of a very interesting Saturn return thing to do. In some ways, his music sort of got younger as he was at the end of his life. So this other record he was working on when he died,

06:53:15 Speaker_03
was of a different vein and he recorded it largely, some of it he recorded with his band in New York in early 97. And then he went to Memphis, Tennessee, where he rented a house and he was recording things on his four track.

06:53:27 Speaker_03
And that's when this unfortunate incident happened when he decided to go for a swim in the Wolf River. and never came back. There's one other thing about his recordings that I want to mention.

06:53:40 Speaker_03
On February 14, 1997, three months before Jeff died, and two weeks before I arrived in New York, Jeff Buckley recorded for Hal Willner, the same guy who organized the Tim Buckley tribute concert a few years earlier.

06:53:56 Speaker_03
Hal Wolner would make these albums with different artists based on a certain theme. And he was making some kind of album. It's either like a poetry album, or maybe it was an album specifically about Edgar Allen Poe.

06:54:07 Speaker_03
I forget, but there's this track of Jeff Buckley reading the poem Oolalume by Edgar Allen Poe. But the craziest thing about this, it's a Poe poem, so obviously it's about death and mourning your lost lover. It's, you know, a classic sort of Poe.

06:54:24 Speaker_03
But in the recording studio that night was the poet Allen Ginsberg, and Allen sort of coached Jeff on how to read this poem, you know, gave him guidance or suggestions because Ginsberg's read a lot of poetry in his life.

06:54:39 Speaker_03
And it's a haunting poem, you know, about death and mourning the dead. And the craziest thing is that this was February 14th, 1997. By the time Jeff dies, just over three months later, at the end of May of 97, Allen Ginsberg had also died.

06:54:53 Speaker_03
So when I hear this recording, again, it's like the Grace album. It's, you know, the ghost of Ginsberg coaching the ghost of Buckley reading the ghost of Poe, you know, and it's just, yeah, more and more of that, that haunting,

06:55:07 Speaker_03
you know, voice from the grave kind of feeling that you get. I highly recommend anyone search out that recording of Ululume. It's very sort of creepy and spooky, very Halloween. If you guys are looking for good Halloween music, it's spot on. Yeah.

06:55:25 Speaker_01
I'm thinking of the keyword like haunting, haunting quality. Yeah. He has Leo rising, Scorpio stellium in the 4th, and there is an emphasis on water signs here. He has Saturn in Pisces in the 8th house and passed away on his Saturn return.

06:55:45 Speaker_01
with Saturn in the 8th. And that was reminiscent or reminded me of a year ago now when Matthew Perry passed away by drowning in his hot tub. He also had Leo rising and Saturn was transiting through his 8th house.

06:56:01 Speaker_01
So there was like a little weird parallelism there in terms of the 8th house placements here in Jeff Buckley's chart and drowning, but also the Scorpio placements, stellium in the 4th house as well.

06:56:14 Speaker_03
Right. I think by the time he drowned, Saturn was in Aries. It was May 29th, 97. But the Jupiter is the thing that intrigues me. Jeff, of course, was born with Jupiter at four Leo. Okay, it had moved off his moon.

06:56:32 Speaker_03
It was on his moon when he recorded Ula Lumi, but by the time he died a few months later, it was on his descendant. Mars was returning to the natal position when he died. But yeah, it's something else. His death was just crazy and unexplainable.

06:56:54 Speaker_03
Like a freak accident. Yeah, well, it wasn't the kind of thing that he would normally do. It was already out of character with him. He was hanging out with a guy who was hired to sort of look after him. He wasn't with a friend.

06:57:10 Speaker_03
He was with someone who'd been hired to be an employee, basically. And literally, when I lived in New York in the 90s, I knew some of the people who'd been in his band.

06:57:19 Speaker_03
So I've heard this story, I also read it in the book, but the day that Jeff went for the swim in the river, his band were in the air flying from New York to Memphis to start recording his album with him.

06:57:32 Speaker_03
And they literally, the plane lands and they're like, where's our ride? Where's Jeff? And then they found out, oh, he disappeared in the Wolf River. So yeah, the whole thing is really mystifying.

06:57:45 Speaker_03
I mean, not suspicious, like no one, you know, thinks foul play, but just, you know, what possessed him to go for a swim that day. And yeah, and considering again, you know, because his music had these haunting death themes and it has to be added.

06:58:01 Speaker_03
I mean, even though he wasn't a huge star, he was popular and he was voted one of the most beautiful people in the world. We haven't mentioned, he was a good looking guy. And so, you know, to be young, good looking and romantic Okay.

06:58:15 Speaker_01
Not as good looking as you, Chris, but he was- No, I was going to say he was a Leo rising, so you know some of those guys.

06:58:24 Speaker_03
Right. My point being, it's terribly romantic when someone young and beautiful dies, I suppose. not a nice thing to say out loud, but I think there's some truth there. And the fact that his music is just so, so beautiful.

06:58:40 Speaker_03
And of course, that recording of Hallelujah is, it rings eternal. It keeps coming back. It keeps, you know, But my wife had never heard it, and I played it for her two years ago, and she plays it constantly now.

06:58:53 Speaker_03
So it's always attracting new listeners as well, and a really broad audience. He's not the kind of artist who would just appeal to a very niche kind of audience. subset of music fan. His music can really reach pretty much everyone.

06:59:15 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure.

06:59:16 Speaker_01
And like you were saying, you're kind of going that direction and we'll see that with more so with some of the subsequent examples, but there was a little bit of mysteriousness surrounding his death and just what happened and things like that and people initially in disbelief as well.

06:59:33 Speaker_01
But All right, so the last thing is I found this amazing quote from him where he says, quote, this is talking about the performance that he gave at the age of 24 at that tribute to his father, which ended up being his big breakthrough.

06:59:50 Speaker_01
He said about that, quote, I sacrificed my anonymity for my father, whereas he sacrificed me for his fame.

06:59:59 Speaker_01
I thought that was such an amazing quote because it ties together so many different themes of those fourth house themes of him and Jeff himself, probably with that fourth house stellium, valuing his anonymity or his privacy to some extent.

07:00:15 Speaker_01
And by coming forward and giving that performance at that tribute for his father, it suddenly made him known and certainly thrust him into the spotlight in some ways, which is a very 10th house thing.

07:00:30 Speaker_01
The ruler of the 10th house of career is that Venus, which is in the 4th house of parents and father.

07:00:37 Speaker_01
But then, of course, with his father, he's alluding to the fact that in that song, for example, that the father himself abandoned the son and abandoned his family in order to pursue his career as a musician.

07:00:53 Speaker_01
So I just thought that was such a stunning quote from him.

07:00:58 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. No, it's super powerful.

07:01:00 Speaker_03
The other thing about that concert in 1991, the greetings from Tim Buckley concert, it was April 27th, 1991, which is just 10 days after Nirvana performed Smells Like Teen Spirit for the first time at the OK Hotel in Seattle on April 17th.

07:01:17 Speaker_03
So it's just, I mean, they're not related in any kind of way, but it's just one of these things where, you know, there was something really in the musical zeitgeist during that period. where a lot of things were about to change very quickly.

07:01:30 Speaker_03
What was the date? The Tim Buckley concert was April 27th, 91.

07:01:37 Speaker_01
Okay. Yeah, that's what I was going to look up. And of course, one thing we mentioned in passing, but just I'm amazed by is he was 24, so he was in a first house perfection year, which means the Lord of the Year was the Sun in the fourth house.

07:01:54 Speaker_01
And that fourth house placement then as the ruler of the Ascendants is being fully activated when he gives this breakthrough performance at this tribute concert for his father.

07:02:05 Speaker_03
Yeah, and you can see there's the Jupiter-Saturn opposition. Saturn's on his moon, he's having a Jupiter return. And that's the whole bittersweet element of it. Jupiter, of course, is Zeus.

07:02:18 Speaker_03
Jupiter is the father who creates life and then wanders off, so to speak. It doesn't take responsibility. And the fact that Saturn's on his moon, it tells that whole story in some amazing way.

07:02:35 Speaker_01
I mean, his natal Jupiter is at four degrees of Leo, and it's ruling his 8th house of death and inheritance and his 5th house of creativity.

07:02:44 Speaker_01
And he's having the exact Jupiter return at that performance in his 1st house of self, and that's also a pretty powerful transit.

07:02:53 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, like you mentioned, the fact that he's in a first house perfection year when he performs at that concert, and then he records and releases Grace when he's 27.

07:03:04 Speaker_03
He started recording when he's 26, but most of it's done when he's 27. And certainly it's released when he's 27. So yeah, there's something about that as well. Oh, look at this.

07:03:18 Speaker_01
Wait. It looks like also what Mercury is stationing direct that day or the next day, and then the Moon is about to ingress into either that day or later that night. There was a full Moon, or no, not a full Moon.

07:03:37 Speaker_01
It's just the Moon ingressing into his fourth house.

07:03:40 Speaker_03
Yeah, the concert was in New York, not Anaheim. So, you're probably a bit late with the moon there, because when you think about it, 10pm in California is 2am in New York.

07:03:55 Speaker_03
But nonetheless, yeah, the moon is obviously growing full and it was an evening concert. So, yeah.

07:04:00 Speaker_01
Yeah, I mean, it means that night, sometime late that night, the Moon ingressed into his fourth house and then hit a full Moon the next day.

07:04:08 Speaker_01
So it would have been super bright and shining in the sign of Scorpio late that night and into the next morning after he gave this concert or this performance.

07:04:16 Speaker_03
In a T-square with Jupiter and Saturn. Oh, wow. Yeah. Nice. Lots of father stuff there. And even just look at the fact that on that night, Mars in Cancer was opposite Uranus and Neptune in Capricorn.

07:04:33 Speaker_03
And in his own chart, he's got Mars in between the Pluto and Uranus of the 60s. The Uranus, Neptune and Capricorn was the signature outer planet conjunction of the 90s. Whereas the Uranus-Pluto conjunction in Virgo is the one of the 60s.

07:04:48 Speaker_03
And it's really interesting to me that both those configurations are, at least insofar as Mars and Uranus are concerned, like he has a Mars-Uranus conjunction natally. and Mars and Uranus were opposite on that night.

07:05:05 Speaker_03
And yeah, this is a guy who was supposed to just be a guest at the show and he winds up being the star of the concert. So it's all really great astrology.

07:05:17 Speaker_01
I was trying to figure out what Pluto is doing and why it's like early. It's not hitting his planets yet, and it's already past the IC, but I'd overlooked it's hitting his Ascendant.

07:05:27 Speaker_01
His Ascendant's at 19 Leo, so Pluto transiting his fourth house of parents and father in the past is squaring his Ascendant-Descendant axis at that point, and this performance at that time would lead to a transformation of his life.

07:05:42 Speaker_03
Yeah, and like I said, Pluto was conjunct his son in his solar return for his birthday in 1993, when he turned 27 and was in a fourth house perfection year and recording that album.

07:05:53 Speaker_03
So, you know, Pluto, yeah, in between that time, Pluto would go from scoring his ascendant, make a conjunction to pretty much all those Scorpio planets, except I guess for Venus, which would have happened just a little bit after.

07:06:06 Speaker_03
And yeah, there again, you know, Pluto bringing, bringing the dead to life, you know, which is, you know, like that, the poem that he read or, or like other things in his music, even grace. I mean, grace feels like that.

07:06:21 Speaker_03
Like I said, like someone calling from the netherworld and, and Pluto sometimes makes me think of that sort of Lazarus quality, if not literally coming back from the dead, but seemingly rising up like a Phoenix after you've been sort of written off.

07:06:36 Speaker_03
So yeah, it just, the astrology just keeps giving with this guy.

07:06:40 Speaker_01
Yeah. Well, and it's a good transition into an episode I want to do at some point about posthumous astrology because I'd also be curious about in 2008 when his song was sung on American Idol, and then his song suddenly becomes the number one

07:06:56 Speaker_01
on the charts basically at that point, what transits were going on in his chart then.

07:07:02 Speaker_01
But one of the things that you can see is that a person's chart continues to respond to transits as long as the memory of them persists at different points in the future.

07:07:13 Speaker_01
And I think the fourth house becomes one of our access points for understanding that to some extent as we're starting to see here.

07:07:21 Speaker_03
Yeah. My guess for that 2008, the transits, I mean, I'm sure there's a few things going on, but Saturn would have been in Virgo by then, and maybe it was coming up to his triple conjunction of Pluto, Mars, and Uranus there.

07:07:34 Speaker_03
That's just one thought, but it depends on when in 2008 it happened, I guess.

07:07:39 Speaker_01
Yeah, I think we'll save that investigation for another thing, but I think that's good for this example. I hope we did it justice to Lisa and all the other researchers because I know this is a favorite of a lot of different astrologers.

07:07:55 Speaker_03
Yeah, it is, and with good reason.

07:07:57 Speaker_01
Cool. All right, so let's move on to the next example. So the next example is the birth chart of JonBenet Ramsey, who was born with Gemini rising and Mercury ruling the Ascendant placed in Virgo in the fourth whole sign house.

07:08:18 Speaker_01
So this is a really tragic case where JonBenet Ramsey was a child beauty pageant queen who was murdered at the age of six.

07:08:29 Speaker_01
So what was unique about her case is that she was actually murdered in her family home on Christmas, and the family woke up and couldn't find her and then reported her missing.

07:08:42 Speaker_01
And then later, six or seven hours later, while the police were there searching for evidence or searching for clues or trying to find her, the father found her body in the basement of the family home. and she had been murdered.

07:08:59 Speaker_01
So initially, the family at different points was considered to be suspects, including the father, but many years later, DNA evidence exonerated the family.

07:09:13 Speaker_01
So there was a lot of drama surrounding the family and accusations thrown at them that were later cleared. Her name actually, even in and of itself, combines her father's first and middle names together to form her first name, John Bonnet.

07:09:32 Speaker_01
But even to this day, there's still a mystery surrounding her death. One of the really tragic things about this case is it's still an unsolved mystery about what happened to her.

07:09:47 Speaker_01
Her father also has the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house, and I'll talk about him more later in another section on the 12th house, because he is the ruler of the 4th house of home and living situation in the 12th house of loss.

07:10:03 Speaker_01
One of the most tragic things that happened to him in his life occurred in his home when he found the body of his daughter.

07:10:11 Speaker_01
But earlier this year, I saw an interview with him where he's currently pushing and trying to advocate for her because he says there's a bunch of pieces of evidence that were never tested for DNA at all, and that were never tested also with more modern methods of DNA analysis.

07:10:32 Speaker_01
so he's trying to push in order to get that done in hopes that they can still at some point identify or track down the killer.

07:10:40 Speaker_03
That would be something. Yeah, what a terrible, terrible ordeal, especially, I mean, for a long time, the parents were considered guilty.

07:10:50 Speaker_03
You and I were talking a few days ago about how South Park did a bit on that years ago in the early days of the show, but one where they just sort of unabashedly accused her parents of being culpable. And that's just a South Park cartoon.

07:11:08 Speaker_03
Obviously, it got a lot more serious than that. They probably had to deal with all kinds of terrible experiences and false accusations.

07:11:16 Speaker_01
Because that's one of the things that became a media circus and fiasco in the aftermath of her death, where it was sensationalized and then became the fodder of the people that would become

07:11:31 Speaker_01
focused on it as a news story and as a mystery and things like that, and starting to throw around accusations and different things like that.

07:11:40 Speaker_03
Yeah, well, you had this other component, which was the fact that you had all this video footage of her competing in beauty pageants and, you know, the girl died at six.

07:11:48 Speaker_03
So this was the first time that a lot of us, certainly me, but I think a lot of, you know, the world became aware that they had these weird beauty pageants for small girls where they would, you know, dress up in formal wear and wear makeup and do all this stuff.

07:12:02 Speaker_03
And, you know, on the one hand, it seems innocuous and fun and innocent. On the other hand, it's kind of messed up and like, what are they doing?

07:12:13 Speaker_03
For the story to become a media circus, certainly the murder of the child on Christmas of all things was a big enough story, but for the news outlets to really run with it, of course, they had all this footage of her in these contests.

07:12:25 Speaker_03
You could do a half hour or hour long deep dive on the short life of John Benet Ramsey, because there was enough footage to show. So yeah, it became a real media story. You can see she was born during a lunar eclipse in a T-square with Mars and Pluto.

07:12:43 Speaker_03
I mean, it is a really rough looking chart, to be sure.

07:12:51 Speaker_01
Yeah, it's a lunar eclipse that's like square Pluto and square Mars, and then she has an exact Mars-Pluto opposition between the 12th house of enemies and the 6th house of injury. So there's definitely a lot of stuff going on there.

07:13:09 Speaker_01
I just wanted to bring it up as an example of somebody who there's a mystery surrounding their death, which is a theme that I've seen come up in different ways that we saw a little bit to some extent with Jeff Buckley, but we'll see more prominently in some subsequent examples, but also where there was a media fiasco surrounding the person's death and where the person became

07:13:32 Speaker_01
more well-known as a result of their death than they were in life. But hopefully at some point in some future transit or activation to her chart, her killer will be identified and hopefully brought to justice.

07:13:46 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, it's crazy to think she'd be 34 now if she hadn't been killed. But to your point, I think that the fact that she was found in the home, that Mercury in the fourth speaks to the fact that she had disappeared and yet she was home all along.

07:14:02 Speaker_01
CB Right. And in the lowest part of the home, like in the basement. But I just remember the case because it happened in Boulder, Colorado, which is only like 30 minutes from where I grew up. And I was pretty young at the time when it happened.

07:14:15 Speaker_01
So I remember it as being this big fiasco at the time.

07:14:19 Speaker_03
Yeah, I'm sure that for it to be a local story was all the more intense, but it was an international story. It was absolutely huge. The OJ Simpson thing had just ended not too long before, so the media was ready for... More of that kind of thing.

07:14:40 Speaker_01
To create another publicized circus. Yeah.

07:14:46 Speaker_03
The story lends itself well to the 24-hour news cycle, so to speak. Yeah.

07:14:51 Speaker_01
All right. So let's move on to the next example. So speaking of mysterious deaths, one of the ones that came up in searching through the files was the birth chart of Jimmy Hoffa.

07:15:08 Speaker_01
who was born with Aquarius rising and Saturn in Taurus in the 4th whole sign house in a night chart, co-present with the Moon in Taurus, which is actually applying to a conjunction with Saturn. And

07:15:26 Speaker_01
Jimmy Hoffa was a powerful American labor leader who mysteriously disappeared in 1975 and is assumed to have been murdered, but his fate is unknown, like how he died or exactly why, and it remains essentially as one of the most enduring unsolved mysteries in American history at this point, where it became almost like a punchline of who killed Jimmy Hoffa, basically.

07:15:55 Speaker_03
Yeah. He was a union leader, a teamster. He definitely had mob connections, a big sort of adversary of Robert Kennedy when Robert Kennedy was the Attorney General. He did do some jail time.

07:16:11 Speaker_03
I forget exactly for why, but things to do with unions and corruption and whatnot. And clearly he just, you know, he made the wrong enemy. You know, but you're right, he became kind of a punchline.

07:16:23 Speaker_03
You know, one of the jokes is that he's buried at, you know, in Giant Stadium or Tiger Stadium in Detroit or one of the football stadiums that he's buried under the goalpost or whatever. But that's just the kind of lore.

07:16:36 Speaker_03
Yeah, he became a punchline because he was kind of a rough customer. It was easier for people to be a bit more glib about his unfortunate ending. He was basically hung out with the mob if he wasn't part of the mob himself.

07:16:52 Speaker_03
And so, it's a reflection of the company he kept, but nonetheless, it's a very famous crime. one that everyone's got a pet theory about.

07:17:10 Speaker_01
Yeah. There's a few different fourth house components here. Being a controversial figure in life that had alleged ties to organized crime is itself maybe a fourth house thing in terms of the secretive nature of organized crime and

07:17:28 Speaker_01
whatever he may or may not have been doing in terms of that. He was also convicted of jury tampering, bribery, and fraud in 1964, and he served time in prison before his sentence was eventually commuted by President Richard Nixon.

07:17:43 Speaker_01
So there's also a fourth house theme having to do with prison there as well and having served prison time. Then finally, he mysteriously disappeared in 1975 and eventually was declared legally dead in 1982, seven years after his disappearance.

07:18:03 Speaker_03
Right. And of course, Al Pacino played him. We were just talking about Martin Scorsese and all this stuff, and Al Pacino played him. Was it the Irishman? I think so. Yeah. Where they depict Martin Scorsese's idea of how

07:18:22 Speaker_03
Mahaffa would have been killed, which certainly the part we know is that he was supposed to meet someone at this diner somewhere in the Detroit area, which you do see happen in the movie.

07:18:34 Speaker_03
And that he went to make a phone call and no one saw him after that, I think is how the story goes. So from there, Scorsese extrapolates a little bit on what he thinks would have happened.

07:18:48 Speaker_03
Hafez was drawn away by someone he knew, you know, who lured him somewhere where he could be killed, which is, you know, an old trick.

07:18:58 Speaker_01
CB Yeah. I'm just seeing this Moon-Saturn conjunction in late Taurus. It reminds me of earlier this summer, there was that Mars-Uranus conjunction in Taurus near Algol.

07:19:11 Speaker_01
And a lot of the discussions about Algol as a malefic fixed star that Austin was emphasizing especially, and this is a little reminiscent of that. There's other stuff going on.

07:19:23 Speaker_01
He has Mars in the 12th house of enemies and it's opposite to Neptune, the planet of deception and illusions. He has Uranus very closely conjunct the Ascendant and early Aquarius.

07:19:36 Speaker_01
And even just the Moon applying to that conjunction with Saturn in the 4th house is kind of tricky in a night chart.

07:19:43 Speaker_03
Yeah. And then if you look at the transits of his death, you mentioned the Mars-Neptune opposition he has. Well, Saturn was conjunct his Neptune, Jupiter was square his Neptune and Mars, and Uranus was also square his Neptune and Mars.

07:19:57 Speaker_03
So there was like a grand cardinal cross by transits linking up to that Mars-Neptune opposition of his. That's July 30th, 1975 in Bloomfield Township, Michigan. 2.30 PM is the time that I think he disappeared.

07:20:13 Speaker_03
Did you just remember that off the top of your head? No, no. I have him in my file.

07:20:18 Speaker_01
But you're not looking at your file right now, are you?

07:20:22 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. I pulled up his chart and I'm looking at it.

07:20:24 Speaker_01
Okay. That was going to be more impressive if you just remembered the exact time that Jimmy Hoffa disappeared off the top of your head.

07:20:31 Speaker_03
I could have told you without opening my file, I could have told you he died July 30th, 1975, or disappeared that day. I could have told you that.

07:20:38 Speaker_03
No, I had to look up my file for the time, or the name of the small place in Michigan near Detroit where he disappeared. CB. Got it.

07:20:46 Speaker_01
Oh, wow. Look at this. The south node is at 28 Taurus, which is almost exactly conjunct his Saturn. JLF.

07:20:53 Speaker_03
Put it up.

07:20:54 Speaker_01
CB. Oh, do I not have it up? JLF. You don't have it up. CB. Sorry, wrong. Sharing the wrong chart, of course. So here's the chart, roughly, for the day, at least. So the South Node is at 28 degrees of Taurus.

07:21:08 Speaker_03
You've got 126 AM, make it 230 PM, even if it's Brazil, Indiana. Because the Moon was in Taurus, yeah.

07:21:20 Speaker_01
So the self-known is at 28 Taurus, and it's conjoining his ruler of the Ascendant, which is his Saturn at 27 degrees of Taurus in his fourth house.

07:21:32 Speaker_01
And then it's also conjoining the degree of his IC, which is at 27 degrees of Taurus in the fourth house. So that's pretty stunning. And that means eclipses would actually start.

07:21:42 Speaker_03
Yeah, square his Sun-Mercury too. Sorry to interrupt, but

07:21:48 Speaker_01
Yeah, so that means eclipses would have started to take place in his 4th and 10th houses, especially that year.

07:21:55 Speaker_01
And especially subsequent to his disappearance, there would have been eclipse action for the next year across his 4th house axis of hidden matters and the end of life and his 10th house of career.

07:22:10 Speaker_01
So that's again showing the connection sometimes when eclipses happening between the 4th and the 10th and sometimes connecting disparate parts of the chart. Yeah. All right. Cool.

07:22:22 Speaker_01
I think that's good for that then and just making the general point about the ruler of the Ascendant being in the fourth house and certainly for him becoming more well-known as a result of his death and the mystery surrounding it than he was even in life.

07:22:40 Speaker_03
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he was a notorious figure in life, but he's definitely by far more famous because of how he died.

07:22:49 Speaker_01
That is the conclusion. All right, moving forward, another more contemporary example for like

07:22:57 Speaker_01
I don't know, more recently, is the birth chart of the actress Brittany Murphy, who was born with Leo rising and the Sun in Scorpio in the fourth whole sign house conjunct the degree of the IC and also co-present with Uranus, the Moon, and Venus, which are all in the fourth house.

07:23:17 Speaker_01
Sorry, yeah, the Sun in the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house itself conjunct the IC and Uranus. So Brittany Murphy was an American actress that was known for roles like Clueless, 8 Mile, and Girl Interrupted.

07:23:33 Speaker_01
And I remember her because her breakout role was in Clueless in 1995, which was one of the biggest movies of the year in that year, but also starring alongside Eminem in 8 Mile in the early 2000s was a pretty big deal. She also

07:23:52 Speaker_01
was a voice actress, and she lent her voice to one of the characters on King of the Hill in some of the early seasons.

07:23:59 Speaker_01
So she had a really promising career, but then it was tragically cut short when she died under mysterious circumstances at the age of 32 in 2009. This was quite a shock to people, and there was a lot of mystery and speculation surrounding her death.

07:24:16 Speaker_01
Partially due to the suddenness and due to her age, because she was only 32 and seemingly healthy, so her sudden passing supposedly from pneumonia was a shock. And then to compound matters,

07:24:31 Speaker_01
only five months after Brittany died, her husband died in the same house, also supposedly from pneumonia or anemia.

07:24:42 Speaker_01
And that was the other thing is that both of them ended up, she collapsed at home and then was rushed to a hospital and pronounced dead. So she effectively basically died at home and then he died at home, also mysteriously five months later.

07:24:56 Speaker_01
So this unusual coincidence fueled a lot of suspicions in the media afterwards, and initial reports were focused on prescription medications that were found in her system that led to speculation about drug abuse.

07:25:12 Speaker_01
then the coroner said that these were legal medications and were not the primary cause.

07:25:18 Speaker_01
Later, her family actually started putting out theories that they thought she may have died due to toxic mold was in the home that may have contributed to both of their deaths, but then this theory was never confirmed.

07:25:34 Speaker_01
So there just ended up being a lack of clear answers. And despite the official reports about pneumonia, some family and friends questioned the findings and felt that there were a lot of unanswered questions.

07:25:47 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, of course, you mentioned she died at 32. She died about five, six weeks after her 32nd birthday. And what is the 32nd birthday, Chris? Tell me what the 32nd birthday is Nick.

07:26:01 Speaker_03
The 32nd birthday is the joined synodic return of Venus and Mars. Okay. So in the solar return on your 32nd birthday, Venus and Mars are going to be very close to where they are in the natal position.

07:26:12 Speaker_03
The day that Brittany died on December 20th, 2009, Mars was just stationing retrograde on her ascendant, but don't get excited yet.

07:26:20 Speaker_03
The craziest thing about it is, of course, because she was 32, she was also born not long before Mars went retrograde in Leo. In fact, she was born 32 days before Mars went retrograde in Leo.

07:26:32 Speaker_03
And then she died when Mars went retrograde Leo on her ascendant. So there's some really precise looking progressions, transits in this whole story.

07:26:41 Speaker_03
Very interesting that there was a Jupiter-Neptune conjunction on her descendant as well, opposite her Saturn. You know, you mentioned that the possibility of mold or something of that nature.

07:26:50 Speaker_03
Certainly that's what Neptune in particular would make me think.

07:26:55 Speaker_01
I know you're a Mars retrograde guy and enthusiast, so that's where your enthusiasm is coming from there, but not to get too enthusiastic. CB So you're talking about the date. She died on December 20th, 2009.

07:27:11 Speaker_01
So Mars was stationing at 19 degrees of Leo and it was very close. They conjunct her Ascendant at 21 degrees of Leo and squaring her son, the ruler of the Ascendant at 17 Scorpio.

07:27:24 Speaker_03
Yeah, at the same time that our progress Mars happened to be stationing retrograde at 11 Leo square her Uranus. But yeah, so you're getting the transit and that the progress station at the same time.

07:27:35 Speaker_01
Okay. Yeah. And that's in the first house of like body and physical vitality. Yeah. And then I see that Pluto, having ingressed into Capricorn recently, ingressed into her 6th house of illness. Uranus is transiting through her 8th house at the same time.

07:27:56 Speaker_01
So like with all of these, there's obviously a lot of stuff going on.

07:28:00 Speaker_01
don't necessarily have to try to solve the mystery, but the point is just her death was sudden and unexpected and a shock, and then there were mysterious circumstances around it that even led to her family having a lack of clarity or closure to some extent.

07:28:17 Speaker_03
Yeah, just one last thing I'm noticing, actually, it wasn't just that our Mars stationed retrograde 32 days after she was born, but both her Mercury and her Saturn stationed retrograde 31 days after she was born.

07:28:31 Speaker_03
So in that final year of life, she's got three planets making retrograde stations by secondary progression, one of which is that Mars that, as we explained, coincided with the actual transiting retrograde. So, yeah, it's pretty wild.

07:28:45 Speaker_03
Sometimes you see this with secondary progressions when there's this much going on.

07:28:50 Speaker_01
CB Yeah. I did an episode on secondary progress stations where we went through a bunch of examples and showed how important those years can be as turning points, especially in the year in which they station.

07:29:02 Speaker_01
But I can see why that would be even more important for her because she was born with both Mars and Saturn in the first house of body and physical vitality.

07:29:11 Speaker_03
Yeah. And they both stayed in retrograde within, you know, just that she died. So yeah, it's, it's pretty wild. The transits are pretty wild. Yeah.

07:29:20 Speaker_01
Yeah. So that's a really sad case.

07:29:22 Speaker_03
Yeah. She was really good in Girl Interrupted, actually. I remember she plays, well, anyway, I don't want to spoil the movie, but I remember her being really good in that.

07:29:32 Speaker_01
Yeah. Clueless because of just the, I don't know, role that it occupies in my memory as a middle schooler who will always be my favorite role of hers. Although, yeah, Eight Mile is also good as well. Yeah. Eight Mile's great. All right. Let's move on.

07:29:52 Speaker_03
Obama thinks so. He was just doing the song. Moving on. Okay. That's true.

07:29:58 Speaker_01
All right, so the next example I want to share is the birth chart of Rock Hudson. He was an actor who was born with Libra rising and Venus in Capricorn in the 4th whole sign house, co-present with Jupiter and the South node in the sign of Capricorn.

07:30:15 Speaker_01
So Rock Hudson was a prominent American actor, especially in the 1950s and 60s. But what happened, especially towards the end of his life, is that he became one of the first major American celebrities to be diagnosed with AIDS.

07:30:32 Speaker_01
He publicly announced his diagnosis in 1985, which really helped to raise awareness about the disease at a time when there was just widespread fear and misinformation surrounding it.

07:30:45 Speaker_01
In the episodes on the AIDS pandemic that I did with Gary Lorenzen, we talked about him a little bit and situated where this fell in terms of the early phases of the AIDS pandemic.

07:30:58 Speaker_01
So, what was important about his example is that his courageous disclosure actually helped to shift public perception of AIDS, and it contributed to an increase in funding for research.

07:31:13 Speaker_01
He unfortunately passed away shortly after his announcement at the age of 59. but it was quite a shock.

07:31:23 Speaker_01
But his death and the fact that he announced what had happened helped to raise awareness and helped to influence things in a positive way by bringing attention and greater funding eventually towards AIDS research.

07:31:37 Speaker_03
Yeah, and, you know, because I, you know, he was a big movie star in the 50s. And so he was friends with Ronald Reagan, but he was also friends with Elizabeth Taylor and it's very interesting, you know, effect that he had. with both of them.

07:31:55 Speaker_03
Reagan was president at the time. He had known Rock Hudson because Reagan once upon a time was the head of the actors union and knew all the actors. But Reagan was really head in the sand about AIDS. He was doing absolutely nothing.

07:32:11 Speaker_03
He was basically pretending it was a trifle. He was doing more than nothing.

07:32:17 Speaker_01
He was definitely not doing well.

07:32:23 Speaker_03
No, no. And so then, you know, Rock Hudson turns up at the White House, you know, clearly not well.

07:32:33 Speaker_03
And it was an appropriate embarrassment of the Reagan administration to let someone that he knew personally, you know, just sort of die without any help that way.

07:32:46 Speaker_01
Yeah, and I shouldn't have said, I said the reverse of what I meant. I said Reagan was doing less than nothing.

07:32:52 Speaker_03
Yeah, no, no, I got you.

07:32:54 Speaker_01
very little about the AIDS epidemic, and it was one of the things that set things back even further in terms of dealing with it and managing it as a pandemic.

07:33:05 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. On the other side of things, I mean, it was Rock Hudson's illness and death that really radicalized Elizabeth Taylor and, you know, helped her become a really formidable force in, you know, combating the AIDS crisis.

07:33:22 Speaker_03
I mean, she was, you know, really, really important. especially as you got into the nineties. So yeah, it was a terrible, you know, terrible, terrible thing. Rock Hudson had been this very sort of strong, masculine, you know, movie star, matinee idol.

07:33:43 Speaker_03
And, you know, he sort of vanished from view for a while. And then next thing we knew he turned up looking very thin and gaunt and sickly and on death's door. So, yeah.

07:33:54 Speaker_01
Well, and one of the reasons why the Reagan administration wasn't dealing with it is because they were treating it as if AIDS was a disease that only gay people got, or that it was a gay disease or something like that.

07:34:14 Speaker_01
And that was one of the reasons why it wasn't addressed properly as a pandemic as early as it could have been, because of the stigma surrounding homosexuality at that time amongst really both political parties, but especially amongst the right, which Reagan was part of.

07:34:32 Speaker_01
But that was another piece of Rock Hudson's story, is that he was actually a closeted gay man who lived or kept his sexuality private or secret for most of his life. But the disclosure of that was part of his story as well.

07:34:51 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. And it really goes, it's an interesting part of his story. You can see like Venus, Jupiter in the fourth house, talking about keeping your pleasure private, I suppose. His homosexuality was an open secret in Hollywood.

07:35:08 Speaker_03
And in fact, a lot of the movies he played, he wasn't like a serious movie star. He wasn't considered serious. He was the kind of guy you put, in a rom-com with Doris Day. They gave him very light, fluffy fare, whereas he was a really good actor.

07:35:28 Speaker_03
He is in some serious movies like Giant with Elizabeth Taylor and James Dean. I mean, he could do the serious roles, but largely he was given fluff and he was given roles that sort of surreptitiously poked fun and ridiculed his sexuality.

07:35:45 Speaker_03
He was a very sort of square-jawed looking handsome matinee idol, but the movie producers and script writers would sort of torment him with scripts that would sort of humiliate or emasculate his character. That was part of the comedy thing.

07:36:04 Speaker_03
They were doing this knowing that he was gay. The audience would just think, oh, the movie actor is playing a role where he does this and he does that. Whereas really, there was this subtext in terms of

07:36:21 Speaker_03
you know, how the film producers who hired him were, you know, sort of tormenting him in some strange way, in some way that was very fourth house, in some way that you would have to know the subtext in order to understand what was really happening.

07:36:37 Speaker_01
CB Right. But for the most part, otherwise, he was actually very discreet about his sexuality and his sexual orientation.

07:36:44 Speaker_01
And so to some extent, he ended up having to lead a secret life as a result of that, which is the other part of his ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house. And that actually became part of the story later on.

07:36:58 Speaker_01
something I talked with Gary Lorenzen about because he was around. He was an astrologer that was around as a gay man during the AIDS epidemic or pandemic in the 1980s, and we talked about the astrology of it in that episode on the astrology of AIDS.

07:37:13 Speaker_01
But one of the things that he talked about is that there were some people in the gay rights movement who, at the time, they felt like

07:37:22 Speaker_01
there was a lot of prominent people that were closeted and that they needed to come out in order to spread awareness about AIDS. Some people adopted this radical philosophy of outing people

07:37:38 Speaker_01
who were unwilling or who were still closeted, even against their will. Rock Hudson was actually one of those people, I believe, where in the final weeks of his life, he was outed by a gay writer in an interview to People magazine.

07:37:54 Speaker_01
And so that became one of the things that happened, is that the disclosure of that, of his private life or of his secret to some extent, his secret life, happened through somebody else telling it.

07:38:09 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean that's the interesting thing is transiting Neptune was just making its ingress into a Capricorn close to his IC. When all this was happening when he was being exposed and when he died not long after.

07:38:25 Speaker_03
And it's the funny thing about the transit of Neptune. I mean, Neptune does in its own way signify, you know, all the smoke and mirrors and things that are kept from us.

07:38:34 Speaker_03
But at the same time, I've often found that the transit of Neptune, especially ingress transits, is actually revealing, actually sort of like you know, clears the smoke as opposed to gathers it.

07:38:48 Speaker_03
So yeah, that was a revelation, you know, a lot of the world. Like I said, it was an open secret. People in the movie business and what have you knew. That's why this writer knew, but the general public had no clue.

07:38:59 Speaker_01
CB Yeah. I mean, I don't know how much that translates to most of the country, especially in the 1950s and 60s, where homophobia was so ingrained and could be actually really dangerous if a person's secret life was disclosed.

07:39:19 Speaker_03
Illegal in some places. It was illegal in Canada. It was illegal in England. I'm not sure about the States, but it was certainly the cops had license to harass people even if it wasn't. So yeah, it was really serious.

07:39:30 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah. So I just wanted to touch on that because obviously then his death impacted

07:39:39 Speaker_01
things in terms of AIDS research and things like that, but it then also became a prominent example of somebody whose private life as a gay man became public and then also influenced perceptions in terms of that and was part of the

07:39:56 Speaker_01
gradual process of views, especially in the United States, changing over the 30-year period that separates 1985 when he passed away in the middle of the AIDS pandemic versus, let's say, 2012 when Obama, during his second run for presidency, endorses same-sex marriage, for example.

07:40:19 Speaker_01
Actually, no, it was 2015. 2015 was when it became law, but I think he started to talk about it a little earlier. CB No, yeah.

07:40:27 Speaker_01
No, I know it was 2012, but I just remembered that the better date to connect with 1985 is 2015 because that's exactly 30 years later that same-sex marriage is actually legalized as 30 years after Rock Hudson died.

07:40:41 Speaker_01
So it's just another good example of how this theme of the private life and sometimes secrecy or things that are kept hidden is not like this blow-off topic, but sometimes it's actually really important in people's lives.

07:40:56 Speaker_01
All right, the next example I want to share is the birth chart of the rapper Eazy-E. So he was born with Aries rising, and Mars is in Cancer in the 4th whole sign house conjunct Venus in a night chart.

07:41:15 Speaker_01
And EZE was a pioneering figure in rap and a founding member of the influential group NWA.

07:41:23 Speaker_01
So with NWA, he released the groundbreaking album Straight Outta Compton in 1988, and this album really propelled West Coast rap to the forefront of hip-hop at the time, where it was a little bit more New York-centered at that time.

07:41:40 Speaker_01
Sadly, his career was cut extremely short when he passed away from AIDS-related complications in 1995 at only the age of 30. But his death ended up significantly contributing to raising an awareness about AIDS, just like with Rock Hudson.

07:42:02 Speaker_01
But with Eazy-E, it was particularly within the African American community and in the hip-hop world, it really raised awareness about AIDS as something that was to be taken more seriously.

07:42:14 Speaker_01
So a few years ago, or almost 10 years ago now, his story was actually later dramatized in the 2015 movie Straight Outta Compton, where his death played a major, heartbreaking role towards the end of the movie.

07:42:30 Speaker_01
But he ended up leaving a long-lasting legacy on the music industry and influenced countless artists and shaped the sound of hip-hop over the course of the past 30 years since he passed away. But

07:42:45 Speaker_01
Yeah, I wanted to use this together with Rock Hudson just because of, again, another example where there was a major impact of his death, especially in terms of raising awareness about AIDS and how important that was because 1995 was still not super early, but it was still relatively early in terms of the AIDS pandemic.

07:43:07 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it was such a stunning thing when it happened. You know, his group N.W.A., there was no one who sounded like them before they came on the scene. But after them, everyone sounded like them.

07:43:22 Speaker_03
So much of hip hop that you would hear for the 20 years after N.W.A. existed is directly inspired by them.

07:43:32 Speaker_01
Yeah, and that's actually one of the really important things that's notable about what he actually did in life.

07:43:38 Speaker_01
And the other part of his fourth house contribution is that he really represented his home city of Compton, and especially representing street life from Compton and things like that was a big part of

07:43:53 Speaker_01
what his group presented, especially in the context of gangster rap at the time.

07:44:00 Speaker_01
But it's an early example of what became a more common phenomenon in terms of different rappers that come from different cities and representing their home city as being an important part of their music and their life in general.

07:44:15 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, up until that point, you know, hip hop had been almost exclusively New York, at least, you know, in the big context. There was some California rap, but it was a New York sort of thing and a New York cultural marker. N.W.A.

07:44:32 Speaker_03
were not just representing California, though. The whole thing with gangster rap. I mean, when I got that album, I was 19, 20 years old. I had never heard anything like that. You know, gunshots going off, guys bragging about, you know,

07:44:46 Speaker_03
murdering and selling drugs. And just, I mean, it was really brazen and in a way that, you know, apart from hearing the F word on a Sex Pistols record and John Lennon singing at once, you know, it wasn't the kind of thing you heard.

07:44:59 Speaker_03
And suddenly there's, you know, the language was very X rated and they were talking about some pretty horrendous things, sometimes in a very, usually in a very sort of cartoony way.

07:45:09 Speaker_03
But still, the violence, the pseudo-realism of the recordings as a reflection of their day-to-day life, it felt real, and it was really like there was nothing like it when I heard it.

07:45:26 Speaker_03
And yet within a few years, it would be sort of almost like the stereotype of what hip hop had become. Like all hip hop became what NWA were doing in a matter of just a few years.

07:45:39 Speaker_03
So yeah, by the time like say, Snoop Dogg became a big star through Dr. Dre, who had been in NWA with Eazy-E. So it created an explosion. And from there you lead even to Eminem, who was also sort of discovered and produced by Dr. Dre.

07:45:56 Speaker_02
Right. Yeah.

07:45:57 Speaker_03
As a sort of hip hop, hip hop super group, you know, Ice Cube went on to this big acting career, Dr. Dre, a huge figure.

07:46:04 Speaker_03
And then Eazy, who was actually the leader of NWA, who was really like sort of the front man, you know, his life came to this terrible, unfortunate conclusion.

07:46:15 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah.

07:46:17 Speaker_01
It's kind of parallel with another chart that we'll talk about in just a minute with Kurt Cobain and Nirvana and what that did in terms of rock music and the turning point of what rock was in the 80s versus the immediate watershed moment of Nirvana releasing Nevermind in 1991 and how rock changes virtually overnight and popularizes grunge and the Seattle sound and a bunch of related

07:46:44 Speaker_01
bands and things like that, you get a similar thing here with pre-NWA with groups like Run-DMC or LL Cool J or even other contrasts. And then that turning point by the time they come around. Yeah.

07:47:07 Speaker_03
With NWA, it was just, it was more sort of, you know, stunning because of the graphic, you know, sort of violence and depiction of, you know, gang life and things like that.

07:47:20 Speaker_03
I mean, Nirvana, sure, it was groundbreaking, but it was groundbreaking because it was a great little you know, rock pop album with tight songs that were well played, but were very heavy.

07:47:30 Speaker_03
It was somewhat groundbreaking, but it was sort of building on a lot of rock music that had come before. And I say that as a huge Nirvana fan. With N.W.A., it really was like you had never heard anything remotely like this before.

07:47:43 Speaker_03
You know, it really was like, what the heck? It seemed brand new, you know. Sure, hip hop wasn't new, but hip hop done in that way was totally new.

07:47:56 Speaker_01
Yeah. Well, I mean, part of it though was representing in a more accurate depiction, they actually lived life from the streets of Compton being a major focal point.

07:48:05 Speaker_01
And that's really where I think that shines through as part of his ruler of the Ascendant being there in the fourth house, not just as an example of his death, but also in terms of

07:48:16 Speaker_01
Part of what he ended up doing in life was putting his city and putting street life in Compton in the public awareness in a way that probably didn't exist prior to that point.

07:48:28 Speaker_03
Yeah, I'd never heard of Compton before I heard the NWA album. Since then, I've heard of it many times. Yeah, I get the fourth house thing for sure.

07:48:39 Speaker_01
then that through line leads through to today, where you have people like Kendrick now being the most prominent rapper from Compton who's playing that role.

07:48:50 Speaker_01
Interestingly, with his Mars-Mercury conjunction in the 10th house, also in Cancer, but for him, it's in the 10th house rather than the 4th.

07:48:59 Speaker_01
I want to use this as a contrast with Rock Hudson just because it's like two different people from different walks of life who both passed away as a result of the same disease, but whose deaths ended up impacting different communities in different ways and both raising awareness about the same disease that was running rampant at that time.

07:49:20 Speaker_01
All right, so let's move on. This is the very last segment that I wanted to do. When it comes to the 4th house, I think we've demonstrated death and its relationship to the 4th house at this point pretty consistently, as well as how it relates to

07:49:44 Speaker_01
events that happen after death.

07:49:46 Speaker_01
But one of the interesting things that's come up is that the fourth house's association with death, even though it's not something that's frequently talked about in modern astrology, in the public consciousness, actually, there's a version of a reference to the fourth house, which is the so-called 27 Club.

07:50:06 Speaker_01
which is this observation, basically, that there was, starting in the 1960s and 70s, a string of musicians who all had passed away at the age of 27.

07:50:18 Speaker_01
The classic list was Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison were the most prominent examples from that generation who all died at the age of 27. But then more recently,

07:50:35 Speaker_01
that list was unfortunately added to and expanded over the past few decades after the death of, for example, Kurt Cobain in the 1990s, and then Amy Winehouse more recently, are all members of the so-called 27 Club. And

07:50:54 Speaker_01
astrologers, of course, 27 years old is important because 27 is a 4th house perfection year.

07:51:02 Speaker_01
And from an astrological standpoint, that's part of the reason we think, at least, or that's one of the explanations one might be able to give from an astrological standpoint of why there's this correlation in those instances.

07:51:17 Speaker_01
So that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody is going to die at the age of 27, or even if you have difficult placements in the fourth house, that that's necessarily going to be a thing that happens.

07:51:28 Speaker_01
But for this group of people, that was something that came up. So we were going to talk about two or three examples briefly in order to just discuss this phenomenon a little bit.

07:51:41 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. It's definitely, it's not something, the fourth house is a consistent thing, but there are still like different, different ones of these individuals. There are still different ways that you would look at their, their passing.

07:51:53 Speaker_03
So we'll, we'll focus on two of them. But of course it's, it's something that could be its own episode. They're, they're all fascinating charts.

07:52:01 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. Let me do Amy Winehouse first. This one is actually submitted by Orla, and this is primarily her research example.

07:52:14 Speaker_01
All right, here is the birth chart of Amy Winehouse, who was born with Gemini rising and Mercury in Virgo in the fourth whole sign house.

07:52:26 Speaker_01
retrograde and applying to a conjunction with the sun at 21 degrees of Virgo, and both of those are squaring Neptune at 26 degrees of Sagittarius.

07:52:38 Speaker_01
So Amy Winehouse was a famous British singer and songwriter who was really celebrated for her powerful and soulful vocals, as well as her eclectic mix of different musical genres, including jazz, R&B, and soul.

07:52:56 Speaker_01
So she really sort of burst into the music scene with her debut album in 2003 that was titled Frank, and she achieved global stardom with her critically acclaimed second album Back to Black in 2006.

07:53:11 Speaker_01
was especially known for her retro aesthetic, drawing on the 1950s but also adding her own flair. I thought this was really interesting because the ruler of her Ascendant is a Mercury, which is retrograde, in the 4th house.

07:53:23 Speaker_01
So you're getting two past-oriented indications in the chart, both a retrograde ruler of the Ascendant as well as a ruler of the Ascendant placed in the 4th house, which can have to do with the past.

07:53:35 Speaker_03
Yeah, but it's so true.

07:53:36 Speaker_03
I mean, her musical arrangements somehow sounded 60s and 21st century at the same time, you know, that there was something undeniably sort of retro about what she did and some of the, you know, the instruments she was using, you know, trombones and things of that nature.

07:53:55 Speaker_03
But at the same time, it was absolutely of its time. It didn't just sound like some old record, but an old record made in the 21st century, I suppose, is one way to say it. Yeah.

07:54:06 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure. However, though, her immense talent was often overshadowed by her struggles with substance abuse, as well as a tumultuous personal life. Unfortunately, tragically, she died from alcohol poisoning in 2011 at the age of 27 years old.

07:54:25 Speaker_01
So one of the things that Orla pointed out with the Rule of the Ascendant and the Fourth is that she had a really complex and often tumultuous relationship with her father where they were very close and they shared a love for music because her father was actually a jazz singer himself.

07:54:43 Speaker_01
And Amy even had a tattoo that said, Daddy's Girl, and she often spoke fondly of him, which is, of course, striking with the Rule of the Ascendant and the Fourth.

07:54:54 Speaker_01
But unfortunately, there were potentially themes of enabling and absenteeism, because he's sometimes been criticized for potentially enabling some of Amy's self-destructive behaviors, and a lot of the formative

07:55:11 Speaker_01
events in her life, or one of the formative events was that he was absent for a period of time in her childhood due to an extramarital affair, and some people argue that he prioritized his own singing career over her well-being during her struggles with addiction.

07:55:28 Speaker_01
So there's also some issues with media attention, where her father often participated in media interviews and documentaries about his daughter, which some sometimes saw as almost exploiting her fame for his own benefit, and this further strained their relationship, especially in the eyes of the public.

07:55:50 Speaker_01
Orla wrote that Amy idolized her father even after his affair and departure, going so far as to give him the final say on if she went to rehab, which is sort of what that reference in her famous song about going to rehab is about. Right.

07:56:11 Speaker_03
And is that her dad going, no, no, no? Is that the idea, that he's complicit in that?

07:56:18 Speaker_01
I mean, I always assumed it was the opposite, but Orla was trying to say that, yeah, it was. It was like him

07:56:25 Speaker_01
prioritizing her continuing or encouraging her to keep doing music or whatever when she really probably should have gone to rehab and gotten help, and that being really the tragic part of it.

07:56:36 Speaker_01
So I'm not super familiar with her life and biography in detail, so I can't say or confirm, and I don't want to go too far in terms of all of that. But I do know that he has expressed deep regret for not doing more to help Amy overcome her addiction.

07:56:56 Speaker_01
since I'm sure her death in 2011 was also shocking and tragic for him as well. But

07:57:04 Speaker_01
But for whatever reason, one of the points that Orla made was just that Amy's ability to communicate and process and express herself was heavily impacted by her father during the course of her life.

07:57:15 Speaker_01
And so his influence often clouded her own desires and will to some extent.

07:57:20 Speaker_01
So it's kind of a tragic case because on the one hand, it's like emphasis on the fourth house, the deep emphasis on the father, dying at 27 years old during a fourth house perfection year, and then also just

07:57:34 Speaker_01
her death having a huge impact and shocking a lot of people because she was promising and died so young. Yeah, simple as that. Yeah. So that is that chart example. And then shout out to Orla for that.

07:57:54 Speaker_01
And then you wanted to share an annual perfections example with Jimi Hendrix.

07:58:00 Speaker_03
Yeah. So yeah, we've talked about Amy's chart in the past. You and I have also talked about Kurt Cobain, and I think we've touched on his death astrologically.

07:58:13 Speaker_03
The obvious ones to go, if you look at Jim Morrison and Janice Joplin, it's pretty easy to sort of fathom why 27 was the year that it was for them. When it comes to Jimmy, it's always been a little, I found that I had to,

07:58:29 Speaker_03
dig a little deeper to really understand why, astrologically speaking, why he left us at 27. But I found something really, really astonishing.

07:58:39 Speaker_03
And it's less specifically about the transits and more to do with that fourth house perfection year and what it meant over the course of Jimmy's life. So Jimmy, of course, died at the age of 27 when he was in a fourth house perfection year.

07:58:57 Speaker_03
By the age of 27, that's the third fourth house perfection year that you'll have. The first one you'll have is at the age of three. The next one you'll have is at the age of 15, which like I said, is a synodic Mars return.

07:59:09 Speaker_03
And then you have it at 27, which I suppose is the Jupiter return of the synodic Mars return, I suppose. And those three ages with Jimmy sort of line up in a very, very striking way that's very fourth house and really sort of sums it all up.

07:59:26 Speaker_03
And while it doesn't exactly solve the mystery as to why he left us when he did, it certainly sort of puts his passing in a context that you can really understand the timing astrologically. Okay. Let's hear it. Okay. So his fourth house is Pisces.

07:59:45 Speaker_03
And just off the bat, having the fourth house Pisces is the Pisces being sort of the other 11 signs combined, if you will. Jimmy came from a mixed race background on both sides of his family. Very, very sort of diverse.

08:00:04 Speaker_03
He grew up in Seattle and went to a very integrated school you see a picture of his of his class and there's, you know, see seemingly equal numbers of white black Asian kids, you know, all together.

08:00:17 Speaker_03
So he comes from a different world and the way Jimmy became a rock star was being, you know, an African American blues trained musician who suddenly turned up in England and, you know, right as psychedelia is happening and martial amps are being invented and wah-wah pedals are being invented and he just takes London over.

08:00:36 Speaker_03
He's such a formidable talent. And it's literally almost exactly four years from the day he landed in London in September of 1966 to when he died in London in September of 1970.

08:00:49 Speaker_03
So when he arrived in London, he was 23, he was about three months shy of his 24th birthday. Immediately, you know, got new amplifiers, new clothes, you know, he had a new manager sort of paying for all this.

08:01:05 Speaker_03
He got his band together, started recording, you know, put out his first album, played at Montreux, shook the world, became the biggest rock star of the time, you know, inspiring fear and awe in the likes of the Beatles and Eric Clapton and the Stones and all the British musicians who'd been, you know, ruling the world up until that point.

08:01:26 Speaker_01
So we're talking about his first house perfection here right now?

08:01:33 Speaker_03
Well, yeah, when he landed, by the time his first album came out, he was in the first house perfection year. When he landed in England, he was still in the 12th house, he was still 23.

08:01:42 Speaker_03
But by the time he was really sort of like, you know, capturing everyone's attention, he was in that first house perfection year. So then we get to 1970, and he's in the fourth house perfection year. He's had like, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

08:01:57 Speaker_01
Are you going to work backwards? I thought you were going to start from the beginning.

08:02:02 Speaker_03
Well, I was just quickly taking us through his life so we could get to 1970. I guess I was cutting to the chase, unless he wanted me to talk about every year of his life, like when he played Woodstock and all that.

08:02:12 Speaker_01
No, I just want to, let's just focus on, so you had three fourth house perfection years.

08:02:17 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's what I'm getting to. I just wanted a little introduction to explain what that fourth house is. So the ruler of the fourth house in Pisces is that Jupiter in Cancer in the eighth.

08:02:27 Speaker_03
Okay, so I'll just I'll tell you, yeah, I'll tell you the three perfection years so when Jimmy was born the Second World War was going on and in fact his, his father left to fight the war before he was born.

08:02:38 Speaker_03
So his father never saw him until after the war was over. Jimmy's mother was an alcoholic and she struggled pretty bad and. By the time Jimmy was three, her mother and sister had been looking after the baby. And actually, the baby had a different name.

08:02:56 Speaker_03
Jimmy was still called Johnny Allen Hendricks at the time. I'll get to that in a second. One thing led to another, and Jimmy wound up being looked after by a family in California who were friends of his grandmother, his mother's mother.

08:03:12 Speaker_03
So he was being raised by strangers in California who were interested in adopting him. Remember this is fourth house stuff people who are a family even if they're not your birth family.

08:03:22 Speaker_03
So then in September 45 when Jimmy is almost three years old his father comes home from the war and learns that his son is being raised by strangers down in California.

08:03:31 Speaker_03
And he's got to spend a little time sort of getting his life together because he's just gotten back and he, you know, getting some money together. And then he goes down to California about two months later.

08:03:39 Speaker_03
So probably about November, December of 1945, just as Jimmy is turning three, his father comes and brings him home. He goes to the family in California, says, I want my child back.

08:03:49 Speaker_03
And they, even though they wanted to adopt him, they give him back and Jimmy moves back.

08:03:54 Speaker_03
His father takes the baby back to Seattle, reunites with Jimmy's mother, and he renames, when Jimmy is three, he renames him James Marshall Hendricks instead of John Allen Hendricks, which is the name his mother had given him.

08:04:07 Speaker_03
And basically that's what that first perfection year is. It's almost being adopted. It's his father finding him for the first time, which would be a very, very strong bond.

08:04:21 Speaker_03
And the creation of a nuclear family in Jimmy's life for the first time for him, because he hadn't known it until he got to that fourth house perfection year. So that's when he turns three.

08:04:33 Speaker_01
So his father comes back and gets him during his first third house perfection year and fourth house perfection year and gives him his name and changes his name to James Marshall Hendricks.

08:04:46 Speaker_03
Yeah. And he's almost adopted. So, there's that as well. Nice. Good. Okay. Yeah. So, 12 years later, Jimmy turns 15 at the end of 1957. So, he's in the fourth house perfection year.

08:05:01 Speaker_03
And his mother, who for a little while, Jimmy's parents were together and they had two other kids. Jimmy has a younger brother and sister, but eventually when Jimmy was about nine, his parents divorced finally. And his mother

08:05:15 Speaker_03
like I said, really battled with alcohol, alcoholism. So she died in February of 1958 when Jimmy was 15 in the fourth house perfection year. It's a really, you know, cirrhosis of the liver.

08:05:30 Speaker_03
I think at one point they literally found her unconscious like in an alley outside a bar, although I believe she did die in a hospital. So, you know, really, really sad, depressing stuff. And Jimmy sort of holds his father responsible.

08:05:42 Speaker_03
Of course, Jimmy has Jupiter and the Moon in the 8th house in Cancer. Even though he's in the 4th house Perfection Year, the ruler of that Perfection Year is in the 8th with the Moon.

08:05:53 Speaker_01
I think that's really crucial that that's one of the signatures in his chart. He was born with Sagittarius rising for those listening to the audio version.

08:06:04 Speaker_01
He has Pisces on the 4th house, and the ruler of the 4th house is Jupiter, which is placed in the sign of its exaltation in Cancer, but it's also in the 8th house of death.

08:06:16 Speaker_01
And his first 4th house perfection year at three, his father comes and gets him. His second 4th house perfection year at this age of 15, his mother dies. That's right.

08:06:29 Speaker_03
That's right. His mother dies in February of 1958. So 12 years later, Jimmy is 27. He has a very eventful year, all kinds of things happen, numerous bands, recordings, tours, all kinds of stuff.

08:06:46 Speaker_03
It's overall a very busy and good year, but the last two weeks of his life are kind of, everything's kind of coming apart. His bass player quits the band. Some of the shows have gone terribly, there have been riots, and he's kind of depressed.

08:07:00 Speaker_03
And he winds up back in London. He wants to be in New York making records, but he winds up back in London. He's hanging out with a girl that he kind of knows and drugs are taken.

08:07:11 Speaker_03
He goes to bed and then there seems to be some problem and he winds up dying. His death is a bit suspicious, frankly. There's a lot of things that aren't answered. But the long story short is the transits around his death

08:07:28 Speaker_03
make a lot of sense only if you contrast them with the transits of the death of his mother. That's when the whole sort of thing comes together.

08:07:35 Speaker_03
Like I said, when you look at the other people who died around the same time, Janice Joplin, Jim Morrison, even Al Wilson, their deaths transit-wise make a little bit more sense sort of just independently in terms of where they were at that year.

08:07:50 Speaker_03
With Jimmy, it's a bit more puzzling, except when you consider it in the context of that fourth house year. that fourth house perfection year and the way it connects to these other crucial periods in his life.

08:08:04 Speaker_02
Okay.

08:08:05 Speaker_01
So he passed away on September 18th, 1970, right? Yeah, that's right. Okay. And it was in London at about 11 or 12 midday, I think.

08:08:12 Speaker_03
Yeah. And yeah, that was really it.

08:08:25 Speaker_01
just like that. CB So I see the transiting nodes are the north nodes in early Pisces and the south node is in Virgo. So that means he was having eclipses that year in his fourth house and his 10th house.

08:08:39 Speaker_03
That's right. And you can see the nodes are also square his Mercury Uranus opposition. That whole sort of Sag Gemini thing for him is a very, you know, polar axis to put it mildly.

08:08:52 Speaker_03
I think it has a lot to do with the kind of performer he was, but I think it also sort of in terms of the way it interacts with the nodes and then all those transits in Virgo making a T square to the Gemini and Sag planets.

08:09:04 Speaker_03
But yeah, there certainly were eclipses, you know, round about the time he died as well.

08:09:10 Speaker_01
Yeah, not too far before there would have been... I think this was an eclipse. It would have been...

08:09:18 Speaker_03
It's August 31st to September 1st. What he was doing, he was playing a concert at the Isle of Wight. It's the last concert that we have a really good DVD performance. But even there, he had some technical issues.

08:09:32 Speaker_03
But that was the eclipse, the last popular concert that he performed.

08:09:38 Speaker_01
And that was the solar eclipse in Virgo. And then two weeks before that, oh no, actually it would have fallen on the lunar eclipse would have fallen in Aquarius, but it would have fallen right near his south node at 28 Aquarius. Interesting. All right.

08:09:59 Speaker_01
Yeah, so this is his third, fourth house perfection year, and so it was again activating his ruler of his fourth house, which was also the ruler of his Ascendant, which were both placed in the eighth house.

08:10:13 Speaker_01
So as with all things, it's never just one technique or one simple placement. There was other transits and other things going on, of course, at the same time.

08:10:23 Speaker_03
Yeah, and when he goes into his fourth house perfection year, his solar returns always have Jupiter and Libra close to the midheaven. I think virtually conjunct his midheaven the year he died, and squared by the natal Jupiter.

08:10:41 Speaker_03
Why Jupiter on his midheaven would mean this is hard to say, except for the fact that, like I said, it corresponds to these other family issues, the death of his mother, the reunion of his family. There's something about that.

08:10:53 Speaker_01
CB Right. I'm seeing like transiting Mars the day that he died was at nine degrees of Virgo and it was squaring exactly his Saturn at nine degrees of Gemini as well as his Venus in the first house at seven degrees of Sagittarius.

08:11:10 Speaker_01
Yeah, there was a Sun-Pluto conjunction that was forming in his 10th house which would have gone exact in the days following his death. when the world would have become made aware of that, basically.

08:11:24 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah. And there's an interesting sort of sidebar with Outer Planet Transits. You can see that Neptune was at 28 Scorpio. It had been briefly in Sagittarius at the beginning of 1970 when he was doing his Band of Gypsies album.

08:11:39 Speaker_03
But there's a really interesting thing. When Neptune goes into Sagittarius not long after he dies, his recording enterprise is sort of taken over by a former manager, and a lot of crummy versions of his unreleased music are released.

08:11:57 Speaker_03
For a long time, his family fights to have control over the estate, which they finally got in 1995 as Pluto made its ingress into Sagittarius.

08:12:06 Speaker_03
I know you've lived in Seattle, Chris, you know very well in Seattle, there is a Experience Hendricks Museum there.

08:12:13 Speaker_03
And that was built as a consequence of the family, you know, gaining and winning back Jimmy's legacy in 1995 when Pluto went into Sagittarius. Did we like go there together at one point? Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah. I think I bought a mug for my friend.

08:12:29 Speaker_01
Yeah, I'm sure we did.

08:12:31 Speaker_03
Yeah.

08:12:32 Speaker_01
Well, it's interesting what you said about his family having to fight for his inheritance afterwards, because that's another ruler of the fourth in the eighth theme.

08:12:43 Speaker_01
literally the 8th house signifies inheritance sometimes, especially from death, and the 4th house represents one's family.

08:12:50 Speaker_01
And that's actually a topic that will come up in some other charts in the ruler of the houses section whenever I get around to recording that. So eventually they were successful though.

08:13:02 Speaker_03
Yeah, eventually they were. I believe his sister still runs his estate. His father passed away a little while ago, of course. He's pretty old at this point.

08:13:12 Speaker_01
Yeah. Well, that would be interesting. I don't want to go into it now, but it'd be interesting to look at some of the transits for some of that when they were eventually successful and just what was going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

08:13:23 Speaker_01
In terms of subsequent fourth house perfections or other things like that.

08:13:27 Speaker_01
But I think for the purpose of this, that that's a pretty interesting demonstration just in terms of those three fourth house perfection years, starting with the first and then the second, the death of his mother, and then him passing away.

08:13:40 Speaker_01
One of the things I always think is crazy about Jimi Hendrix is whenever I look at his chart, he was born really close to Joe Biden and with the same rising sign.

08:13:51 Speaker_01
So Joe Biden at his current age now is the exact age that Jimi Hendrix would be if he hadn't passed away at age 27.

08:14:00 Speaker_03
Yeah, right. Excuse me while I pardon student debt. Yeah, no, it's pretty wild to consider that, you know, if Jimmy had lived, what he could have left us musically. But yeah, it's true. He's born, he's also born very close to Rob Hand.

08:14:19 Speaker_03
I think he's like within a couple of days of Rob Hand.

08:14:23 Speaker_01
So here's Hendrix's chart. It was November 27th, 1942, with Sadr rising. And then here's Joe Biden's chart, which is November 20th, 1942, also with early Sadr rising. Yeah. Yeah.

08:14:38 Speaker_03
Joe's born closer to the Jupiter station too. Jupiter just stationed retrograde.

08:14:43 Speaker_01
Yeah. And one of the things about Joe, of course, is he's also not been any stranger to death where his family, when he was 30 years old, was involved in a horrific, tragic car accident that killed his wife and his daughter.

08:14:57 Speaker_01
And then later his son, Bo, died of cancer in the past decade.

08:15:06 Speaker_03
And Joe's fought off some brain tumors and things of that nature himself, you know, he's had some close calls.

08:15:12 Speaker_01
Right. Yeah. So it's interesting just in terms of that with both of them having that Sagittarius rising and Jupiter ruling the fourth house placed in the eighth house. Yeah.

08:15:25 Speaker_03
I was always struck by how Jimi Hendrix and Kurt Cobain both have the Moon and Jupiter in Cancer, and they're both left-handed guitars who led the hard rock three-piece bands from the Washington area.

08:15:38 Speaker_03
That's always been... And of course, the 27 Club thing. So there are fun little astrological things like that as well.

08:15:45 Speaker_01
CB Yeah. And I will talk about Kurt Cobain's chart more and especially his Moon-Jupiter conjunction in Cancer because it's in the 11th house and it's actually ruling his 4th house.

08:15:57 Speaker_01
So I'm going to use him as an example of the ruler of the 4th house in the 11th and that some pivotal events in his life occurred when he was living with friends.

08:16:08 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's a good one.

08:16:10 Speaker_03
The only other thing I would say about Jimmy, you know, when we started this recording, we were talking about how the fourth house is the private life and that even if we were talking about celebrities, we'd be talking often about subjects that don't necessarily have to do with the thing that made the person a celebrity.

08:16:28 Speaker_03
And I was thinking about, you know, Jimi Hendrix's experience in this, you know, what we saw unfold with those three fourth house perfection years is something that could happen to, you know, a baker or, you know, an engineer.

08:16:44 Speaker_03
You know, it wasn't specific to him being a musician or, you know, the greatest guitar player ever. It's just something that human beings go through over the course of their life.

08:16:54 Speaker_03
And yeah, that is the beauty of doing a study like this, even if you're looking at a celebrity's chart when it comes to the fourth house.

08:17:02 Speaker_03
Unless it's something like Jeff Buckley and the family legacy type of thing we're talking about, then very often, yeah, it's not necessarily related specifically to whatever it is that makes the person famous.

08:17:13 Speaker_03
It can be something that's entirely removed from that or more mundane.

08:17:19 Speaker_01
Sure. Just in terms of their background and their history and their family history and things like that? CB Yeah, definitely. That's a good point.

08:17:30 Speaker_01
Yeah, and then Hendrix, like others in the 27 Club, one of the things that happens is they get kind of frozen in time at the age of 27, and in everybody's memories, they stay that age basically.

08:17:46 Speaker_01
And while everybody else continues to go and live on and grow old and go through different phases of life and other things like that, but their legacy becomes then made at that point partially in being tied up in the fact that they died so young.

08:18:04 Speaker_01
And then whatever body of work that they had accomplished up to that point becomes fixed and just paused at that moment in time.

08:18:14 Speaker_03
Yeah. And in Jimmy's case I mean it's just, you know, unbelievable because like I said from the day he landed in London to the day he died it's almost exactly four years it's like four years minus five days I think.

08:18:26 Speaker_03
And in that time he recorded so much music that we still get. really good albums. I mean, since his family took over his legacy, they're a lot more diligent about the quality of the releases that come out.

08:18:37 Speaker_03
But he made so much music in that brief period of time that we still get some, you know, which is not what we can say about, you know, Jim Morrison or Janis or any of the others, that we keep getting really great Jimi Hendrix music.

08:18:52 Speaker_01
Yeah. But in some ways, each of them are interesting because their death at that age, at the height of their stardom in some ways, cements their legacy.

08:19:02 Speaker_01
Because then it's like they're permanently stuck in time at that high point in their career in terms of everybody's memories and experience of them.

08:19:11 Speaker_01
And they never end up growing old and going through different musical stages or other things that we would have seen if they'd lived into old age.

08:19:22 Speaker_01
And in some ways, it preserves their memory because then it's like we don't know what Kurt Cobain's thoughts would have been on the latest social media or political things or something like that.

08:19:36 Speaker_01
It's like we have no idea because he gets frozen in time in 1994. And therefore, there's something that becomes lasting about that legacy.

08:19:47 Speaker_01
yeah, that's interesting to think about and is really tied in with the fourth house in some ways in a sense of permanency.

08:19:55 Speaker_03
Yeah. You're reminding me of something Jimmy said in his lifetime. He was just spitballing at one point. He was talking about how it's a pity that on a record, you've only got 20 minutes of music.

08:20:07 Speaker_03
And he said, someday, technology is going to let you record a three-day long song if you want. And of course, he's right. Eventually, you're going to have MP3s. Technically, you could do that.

08:20:16 Speaker_03
But it's really interesting to see him, you know, in 1968 or whatever, sort of looking forward to that moment. You know, there's a similar one where Jim Morrison anticipated electronic dance music long before it existed.

08:20:30 Speaker_03
So sometimes, yeah, they, you know, they're such visionaries that they can kind of see what's coming down the road, even though it would seem like absurd to the rest of us.

08:20:38 Speaker_01
Right. He was having visions of my eight-hour podcasts, but maybe if he would have- Yes, but all Hendrix music, an eight-hour Hendrix guitar solo.

08:20:48 Speaker_03
Yeah, exactly.

08:20:49 Speaker_01
I'm down for that. All right. Well, so this is a little interesting. not digression, but I've been putting off doing the topic of death in astrology.

08:21:01 Speaker_01
I did a talk, a broad philosophical talk with Madeline de Coats, I think a year ago when she was out, when she visited Denver, and we talked about the broader topic of death and astrology and how astrologers cope with death.

08:21:13 Speaker_01
But I've been putting off the technical treatment of transits at the time a person dies or natal indications for death or other things like that for its own episode, since that's a pretty big topic. But we've basically

08:21:27 Speaker_01
accidentally gone into that whole topic and really broached the issue here. So that's all we're going to do for that today.

08:21:35 Speaker_01
But at some point, if people would like, I could return to that topic and do a more deliberate and thorough or thoughtful treatment of it.

08:21:44 Speaker_01
But since it's obviously something that comes up with the houses, obviously we dealt with it here, and then that'll be a major topic when we get to the 8th house as well.

08:21:53 Speaker_03
Yeah. But for people who are interested in doing their own research, I do have a death chart file for sale on my website. It's got quite a few charts. How big is my death chart file now? It has 1,269 passings of human beings.

08:22:05 Speaker_03
Most of them timed and most of them very well known. Okay. That's great.

08:22:21 Speaker_01
So yeah, it's not a common thing that's talked about, but I hope now we've been able to show that death and things that happen after death are important fourth house topics.

08:22:33 Speaker_01
So I'm sure that'll help to spark and expand further research when it comes to this topic.

08:22:38 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, I get how it's a touchy subject. Everything okay?

08:22:44 Speaker_01
I just remembered I had one more example. I forgot that I actually have an example to end with and that wasn't it.

08:22:49 Speaker_03
Oh, okay.

08:22:50 Speaker_01
I'm doing the conclusions here.

08:22:53 Speaker_03
Right. No, I was just going to say, I mean, death is a part of life. I think it's an important thing for astrologers to talk about. We don't go around predicting it. I wouldn't know how to even if I was so brazen to try.

08:23:09 Speaker_03
But it's something that is worth looking at and learning from. Certainly, I don't think we've crossed any lines today in talking about what we did.

08:23:20 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, for sure. It's definitely a part of life and something that can be accessed through the birth chart, and that sometimes it's helpful to do so in different ways for different reasons that don't necessarily have to do with prediction.

08:23:36 Speaker_01
All right. The last example I wanted to share is actually one that Lisa found, and I thought it would be a great example to end on. This is the birth chart of Alan Kardec, who was born with

08:23:56 Speaker_01
Taurus rising and Venus in Leo in the fourth whole sign house. And Alan Kardec was a French educator and author who's best known for codifying the philosophy of Spiritism.

08:24:11 Speaker_01
They were essentially like a mediumship researcher where they became intrigued in the 1800s by the phenomenon of people using talking tables and other spiritualist sort of manifestations and paraphernalia.

08:24:28 Speaker_01
And so he set out to systematically investigate these occurrences and develop a comprehensive doctrine based on the notion of communication with spirits.

08:24:38 Speaker_01
So they compiled over a thousand questions and asked them to different mediums about things like the spiritual world, spirit communication, etc. and adapted the responses into a philosophy that he named Spiritism.

08:24:54 Speaker_01
The Spiritist movement emphasizes notions of reincarnation, spiritual evolution, as well as communication with the spirit world.

08:25:05 Speaker_01
Eventually, he defined this as, quote, a science that deals with the nature, origin, and destiny of spirits and their relation to the corporeal world.

08:25:16 Speaker_01
He eventually wrote a series of books based on the responses that he did via mediumship that was called The Spiritist Codification.

08:25:26 Speaker_01
I thought this was a funny example because I don't actually know how I feel about things like spiritism and some of those things associated with it. I don't actually personally necessarily

08:25:39 Speaker_01
know what to think about that or know that I believe in that per se, but I just found it interesting, even if you're agnostic about that in terms of this person, that this person became fascinated by this topic of whether one could communicate with people who had died and that they have the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house of death and what happens after death.

08:26:02 Speaker_01
And I think it's simply an interesting or actually an entertaining example to use simply for that reason, whether it's true or not true, or whatever the validity of that belief actually is.

08:26:16 Speaker_03
Yeah, no, I think that part's relevant to the astrological exercise. This was something that was very much of its time. Can you put up his chart for a second? I just want to say one thing, because when you put up his chart, it struck me.

08:26:33 Speaker_03
I look at his bio. I know he published a book in 1857, The Book of Mediums and Spirits. But when I look at his chart, I have a hunch that 10 years before he wrote that book,

08:26:46 Speaker_03
around 1846 47 that he would have been having, you know, that might have been when he started to think about this material or when he reached some very important conclusions or, or, you know, for read some very important levels in terms of how he viewed the work he was doing.

08:27:03 Speaker_03
Because when Neptune was discovered, it was at 25 Aquarius conjunct Saturn, which would have been opposite his Venus, the chart ruler. And of course, he's got Neptune at 24 Scorpio on the descendant, squared by the Venus.

08:27:18 Speaker_03
And let's face it, I mean, his story sounds very 19th century. Neptune's just been discovered, no matter where you stand on his work. So, I just have some kind of hunch.

08:27:31 Speaker_03
If people want some insight into how we do astrology research, this is how a question forms in my mind. I see a chart like this and I get the impression of the biography.

08:27:43 Speaker_03
And I think, oh, I bet you that Saturn-Neptune conjunction opposite is Venus when Neptune was being discovered. I bet you that's a thing in his timeline. And then you go and look it up and no doubt it will be.

08:27:58 Speaker_01
I think that's striking because from our perspective, focusing on the fourth house and his ruler of the Ascendant, that's obviously the primary signature there that relates to that, which is not just that the ruler of the Ascendant is in the fourth house of death, but that Venus is closely squaring within a degree from 24 degrees of Leo in the fourth house

08:28:20 Speaker_01
to Neptune at 24 degrees of Scorpio in the 7th house.

08:28:23 Speaker_01
And literally, the entire process in the biography I was just talking about was that he went out and interviewed a bunch of individual spiritists or mediums, basically, or psychics directly and conducted interviews with them and then developed these conclusions or these ideas.

08:28:40 Speaker_01
but it's very much tied up with the 4th house, which is death and after death, and the 7th house, which is interviewing individual, in this case mystical or whatever, Neptune-type figures.

08:28:53 Speaker_03
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's a really interesting chart. I'm like you, I'm quite sort of agnostic slash indifferent to the kind of work he was doing, but that is literally irrelevant.

08:29:07 Speaker_03
I encourage astrologers to go outside your comfort zone when you study people's charts. If you're doing the kind of thing we do where you study people who are famous and read their biographies,

08:29:19 Speaker_03
Sure, you can do your favorite pop star, your favorite actor, and all that stuff. But dare to do the people you either have never heard of, or don't care for at all.

08:29:31 Speaker_03
Study the astrology of people who don't interest you as people, because their charts are still interesting, and you'll still learn astrology by going through the process. So it's something I always encourage.

08:29:48 Speaker_01
Yeah, for sure.

08:29:51 Speaker_01
I think if we've demonstrated nothing else in this episode, I think we've demonstrated that you should try to study birth charts as widely and from people with as wide of different backgrounds as possible because you're going to learn something from every different horoscope that you look at and from people from all different walks of life.

08:30:11 Speaker_03
Yeah. And also if you do like I do and get into studying history, then you get to study different astrological landscapes, so to speak. If you only study people born in the 20th century, you're going to get the outer planets in the same few signs.

08:30:28 Speaker_03
Eventually it gets kind of old, but if you allow yourself to study different centuries, you get an entirely different sort of astrological makeup that is totally unfamiliar to a 20th century astrologer.

08:30:42 Speaker_03
So I think it's really useful in that way as well.

08:30:44 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, for sure.

08:30:45 Speaker_01
And that's one of the reasons why you were able to know immediately about that Saturn-Neptune conjunction that occurred in the mid-1800s that happened in Aquarius and then immediately connect to that with the fact that that was in his 10th house, squaring that natal signature of Venus-Neptune.

08:31:01 Speaker_03
That's right. You can start to just do some of the math in your head, so to speak. That Saturn-Neptune conjunction is one that we should all memorize because it's when Neptune was discovered. That's the striking thing about it.

08:31:17 Speaker_03
something to always keep in mind.

08:31:18 Speaker_01
CB Right, which in and of itself, astrologers often associate with the explosion of spiritism. There's a related term that I can't think of, I'm drawing a blank on, but it's an adjacent term.

08:31:35 Speaker_03
Yeah, I mean, the United States went through a sort of religious reawakening during this time, you know, is the way to put it. And of course, you get things like the Mormons, you know, that's another Neptune phenomenon.

08:31:48 Speaker_03
So yeah, there were a lot of different things.

08:31:51 Speaker_01
Spiritualism, it's often also referred to as spiritualism, although I was using the term spiritism.

08:31:57 Speaker_03
Spiritism, no, you weren't wrong. Alan Kardec did found something called spiritism.

08:32:04 Speaker_03
And it is more or less like what we know as spiritualism, which I think of as being more like Blavatsky and later in the 19th century, going into the early 20th century. This guy's earlier, but I think it's the same same general area. Yeah.

08:32:22 Speaker_01
CB Yeah, gotcha. All right, my friend, somehow we've come to the end of this episode and we have completed our treatment. I know.

08:32:30 Speaker_01
I was just getting started really, but don't tempt me because we went over 50 charts, but there's a whole other 50 charts on the rulers of the houses, ruler of the fourth house that we could get into. So definitely don't tempt me. This was amazing.

08:32:49 Speaker_03
you've watched the whole video, know that right now is 11 hours after when we started recording.

08:32:56 Speaker_01
No, don't tell them that. You're not supposed to share that information.

08:33:03 Speaker_03
Families were made and fallen over that time. Entire empires rose and fell as we recorded this episode. Well done for getting all the way through.

08:33:13 Speaker_01
lives were changed. Thank you for doing this with me. I wanted to do a comprehensive treatment of the 4th house. We ended up with way more charts this time, decided to focus on the ruler of the Ascendant.

08:33:25 Speaker_01
I'm obviously going to have to release this as just a standalone episode on its own for the ruler of the Ascendant, and then I

08:33:33 Speaker_01
may or may not record a follow-up on the rulers of the houses because this is actually already surprisingly comprehensive and long for the fourth house treatment.

08:33:42 Speaker_01
And yeah, I'm going to have to decide what to do about the rulers of the fourth house, which I also have an extensive write-up that's ready to go, and whether I'm going to release that publicly or maybe release it just for patrons or sell it.

08:33:57 Speaker_01
I don't know. I'll have to think about that, and we'll see what happens. But this was really good, and thank you for joining me tonight to talk through this research and present it to the world and give it the

08:34:07 Speaker_01
you know, careful and thoughtful treatment that it really deserves by actually taking the time to talk through the biographies, which I know is something that you're very passionate about and we're very passionate about as we were preparing for this.

08:34:19 Speaker_03
Yeah. I mean, context is everything. You can't really summarize a person's life in a few bullet points. You really need to understand what the chart meant to the fullest.

08:34:32 Speaker_01
Yeah.

08:34:33 Speaker_03
Thank you for setting this up.

08:34:34 Speaker_01
the record, I was the one that was going to say, we need to do these very shortly and briefly and get through it so we can cover everything in a relatively short timeframe.

08:34:42 Speaker_01
And you were the one that said, no, let's slow down and actually tell these people's stories because this is important and it deserves room to breathe.

08:34:51 Speaker_03
Yeah. No, I think just to do it properly or do it as well as we could, I think it was the way to go. So yeah, if you wanted a shorter, quicker show, sorry. I think this is the way it had to be.

08:35:04 Speaker_01
Well, if people made it through to this point, then I think they are appreciative because we just covered some amazing stuff and I think we discovered some really amazing things. We told some amazing stories.

08:35:14 Speaker_01
We all learned a lot about the fourth house and the many different shades of meaning that it has as well as the commonality that we're seeing. That's one of the reasons why I do so many charts because sometimes I feel like it's only once you present

08:35:28 Speaker_01
a bunch of different charts and different lives that you start to see the commonalities and the connections in terms of the different ways that the archetype manifests in different people's lives in very similar ways.

08:35:41 Speaker_01
But it's only once you see a bunch of them that you start to really get a picture of the totality of that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

08:35:50 Speaker_03
It's so true. You have to look at a lot of charts, a lot of charts to really know what you're looking at in the end. If your sample size is too small, you're coming away with half the idea, if that.

08:36:06 Speaker_01
CB Right. And that's just part of my personal philosophy for astrological research. Yeah. So thank you for helping me to leave a lasting legacy here when it comes to the fourth house, which is a very legacy-oriented house. And what are you working on?

08:36:25 Speaker_01
Where can people find out more information about you? Where can people find your database?

08:36:29 Speaker_01
Because I have to give you a shout out because a lot of the chart examples I found, some of them were from my own personal database, some were submitted by people I was working with the research, but a lot of them I actually found this time by searching your timed database.

08:36:42 Speaker_01
So I really have to encourage people to check that out because it's a really worthwhile research. I saw another astrologer just the other day say like,

08:36:51 Speaker_01
I wish there was a way to search through chart files to see people that had certain placements, and that's actually possible in Solar Fire using your database.

08:37:01 Speaker_03
That's right. So I do sell my database. My website is nickdaganbestastrologer.com. You go to the Shop tab, and that's where I sell the chart files. I have some on sale. I'll be selling more. I'm also available for consultations three, four days a week.

08:37:20 Speaker_03
And of course, I'm working on the Nechepso software program. uh which I'm developing with with Patrick Watson and some engineers.

08:37:28 Speaker_03
Uh we're expecting it to the the very first uh version to to come out by the end of the year and um Nechepso will have uh my database built into it and a whole bunch of research features that uh you can't get on Solar Fire or any of the other software.

08:37:44 Speaker_03
So um yeah I think astrology research is about to reach another level too. So um if you enjoyed what Chris and I were doing today uh just know that uh There's more to be done, and soon we'll have some toys and tools that we can do more with. Awesome.

08:38:00 Speaker_01
Yeah, that's exciting. I'll put a link to your website in the description below this video or on the podcast website in the entry for this episode. As for myself, I'm going to keep working on this series.

08:38:10 Speaker_01
This is kind of intense, so I might scale it back a little bit with some of the future episodes. We'll have to see where I go with it in terms of finishing the fourth house as well as moving on to the fifth house eventually.

08:38:21 Speaker_01
I might take a little bit of a break next month to take it easy a little bit since this is an intense research session.

08:38:28 Speaker_01
But just a reminder that I am releasing to patrons the PDF of our notes for this episode, which is going to contain a detailed set of notes if you ever want to refer back to some of the charts that we talked about, as well as some bonus content in that PDF that is stuff we didn't even cover.

08:38:46 Speaker_01
I may do a bonus episode at some point to talk about some extra chart examples. So

08:38:51 Speaker_01
If you want to support this work and you appreciate it, then you can sign up at patreon.com slash astrologypodcast and get access to that bonus content while also doing a good deed of hitting me back for all the great astrology content I'm sharing on the podcast.

08:39:08 Speaker_03
That's right. If you're not a patron of Chris's, you really should be. If you enjoyed what we did today, we do some really cool stuff that only the patrons see. It's not always me, but I'm often there.

08:39:20 Speaker_03
If not me, it's the lovely and talented Patrick Watson. And yeah, it's really great stuff. It's always, always good. Thank you, Chris. Thank you for including me in this. And yeah, it's been a ball. I can't believe it's over. I'm sad.

08:39:36 Speaker_03
It's such a 4,000 kind of ending.

08:39:38 Speaker_01
I know. Well, every end is a new beginning. So we'll see what happens in the future. And I'm sure we'll be back again to talk about more charts next time. So thanks a lot for joining me, Nick. Thanks for making history with me.

08:39:52 Speaker_01
And thanks everyone for watching or listening to this episode of The Astrology Podcast. And we'll see you again next time.

08:39:58 Speaker_01
If you're a fan of the podcast and you'd like to support the production of future episodes, then consider becoming a patron through my page on patreon.com.

08:40:06 Speaker_01
In exchange, you'll get access to a bunch of benefits such as early access to new episodes, the ability to attend live recordings, access to the monthly electional astrology podcast, access to another exclusive podcast called the Secret Astrology Podcast that's only available to patrons, or even get your name listed in the credits at the end of each episode.

08:40:26 Speaker_01
For more information, visit patreon.com slash astrology podcast.

08:40:31 Speaker_01
Special thanks to patrons on our producer's tier, including Christy Moe, Ariana Amour, Mandy Ray, Angelique Nambo, Issa Sabah, Jeannie Marie Kaplan, Melissa Delano, Sonny Bozboz, Kwatsi Alibarrahu, and Annie Newman.

08:40:47 Speaker_01
If you're looking for an astrological consultation, then we have a new list of recommended astrologers on the podcast website. These astrologers offer birth chart readings, synastry, rectification, electional astrology, horary questions, and more.

08:41:02 Speaker_01
Go to theastrologypodcast.com slash consultations.

08:41:06 Speaker_01
The astrology software that we use on the Astrology Podcast is called Solar Fire for Windows, and you can get a 15% discount on the software by using the promo code AP15 when you purchase it through alabe.com.

08:41:21 Speaker_01
For Mac users, we recommend the program AstroGold for macOS, and you can also get a 15% discount when you use the promo code astropodcast15 at the website astrogold.io.

08:41:35 Speaker_01
If you'd like to learn more about my approach to astrology, then you should get a copy of my book titled Hellenistic Astrology, the Study of Fate and Fortune, which is available in both print and now ebook forms, where I've started selling a PDF copy of the book through my website at hellenisticastrology.com book.

08:41:53 Speaker_01
If you're really looking to deepen your studies of astrology, then check out my Hellenistic Astrology course, which is an online course in ancient astrology.

08:42:01 Speaker_01
It's perfect for beginner and intermediate students because I take people from basic concepts up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts.

08:42:10 Speaker_01
There's over 100 hours of video lectures, including monthly webinars and Q&A sessions, and at the end of the course, if you complete the final test, you'll receive a certificate of completion saying that you studied with me.

08:42:22 Speaker_01
You can find out more information at theastrologyschool.com.