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Episode: Sarah Paulson
Author: Armchair Umbrella
Duration: 02:05:18
Episode Shownotes
Sarah Paulson (Hold Your Breath, American Horror Story, 12 Years A Slave) is an award-winning actor and producer. Sarah joins the Armchair Expert to discuss when she knew she wanted to become an actress, her time spent in Florida with her dad in the summer, and her desire to do
things outside her own experience and existence. Sarah and Dax talk about how important it is to be able to laugh at yourself, how hard it can be to deal with rejection, and who her lookalikes are. Sarah explains how impactful her relationship with Ryan Murphy has been on her career, her experience doing dramatizations of true crime stories, and why she feels like her anxiety defines certain aspects of her life. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Full Transcript
00:00:00 Speaker_04
Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert.
00:00:16 Speaker_04
I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.
00:00:18 Speaker_02
Hi.
00:00:19 Speaker_04
We have a big time party on today. Sarah Party Paulson. Most people don't know that's her middle name. Sarah Party Paulson.
00:00:27 Speaker_08
She's so fun.
00:00:29 Speaker_04
She's outrageously fun. She's an Emmy and Tony award-winning actor. American Horror Story. Ratchet, my favorite. Ocean's 8, 12 Years a Slave. American crime story in a new movie out right now on Hulu.
00:00:43 Speaker_04
Hold your breath about the horrific Oklahoma dust storms that came in the 30s.
00:00:50 Speaker_08
Also, recently I saw she was somewhere and she was wearing the row.
00:00:55 Speaker_04
Was she on the day? You guys were really geeky now about your outfits. Gosh. Was she wearing the row on that day?
00:01:01 Speaker_08
I don't remember what she was wearing that day. Okay. But she was on my Instagram.
00:01:06 Speaker_04
She's got style.
00:01:07 Speaker_08
Yeah, she does.
00:01:08 Speaker_04
And a ton of personality.
00:01:10 Speaker_08
She was leaving that day, like leaving the next day to go to Milan for Fashion Week. I was so jealous.
00:01:16 Speaker_04
Oh my Paulson. Sarah Party Paulson. Please enjoy Sarah Paulson.
00:01:21 Speaker_03
Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly?
00:01:30 Speaker_03
Introducing The Best Idea Yet, a brand new podcast about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with. Listen to The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:02:00 Speaker_06
Sound of those feet. Bounding up the stairs.
00:02:02 Speaker_05
He's late, he's late, he's bounding. I heard a bound.
00:02:06 Speaker_04
I sometimes have a good excuse and sometimes I have a really, this is the worst excuse.
00:02:11 Speaker_08
We started so many conversations.
00:02:12 Speaker_04
We did. We had a bunch of conversations.
00:02:13 Speaker_08
We have already so many pins.
00:02:15 Speaker_04
Did you earmark them all? Yeah, we did. I didn't. I leave that up to you because guess what my job is?
00:02:19 Speaker_08
Nothing. Just to sit here and.
00:02:21 Speaker_06
Yeah. Yeah. It's nice, right? I really am very into your particular armchair. Do you want to try it?
00:02:27 Speaker_08
You would really blend in because you're in blue and I worry that I would never get up.
00:02:31 Speaker_06
I think you would. OK, let's try it. Hold on.
00:02:36 Speaker_08
You're having a hip issue? Oh my God, look at this. What if we reversed order today?
00:02:39 Speaker_04
We did this with David- I feel like Edith Ann. I'm like, oh, my babe is- Yeah, David Harbour.
00:02:45 Speaker_06
My babe is Edith Ann, and I feel like I'm like this. A little girl.
00:02:48 Speaker_04
A little girl.
00:02:49 Speaker_06
Hi!
00:02:49 Speaker_04
You said you start from the outside in for your characters.
00:02:53 Speaker_06
I do now.
00:02:54 Speaker_04
I didn't used to. You could even extend that out beyond your outfit into your chair you sit in.
00:03:00 Speaker_06
Oh, wow.
00:03:01 Speaker_04
You could start with a prop this time.
00:03:02 Speaker_06
I just like how willing you were to give it to me. You're like, you want to try it?
00:03:05 Speaker_04
I have a lot of respect for you. I don't know if you know this. We're 15 days apart.
00:03:09 Speaker_06
Really?
00:03:10 Speaker_04
I was born January 2nd.
00:03:11 Speaker_06
January 2nd, I'm December 17th. So you're 1975 though.
00:03:14 Speaker_04
Yes. Yeah, I'm 74. My father was very upset by that. Oh, is this fun? Now I get to look at Monica sometimes.
00:03:19 Speaker_08
Oh, this is so weird. You don't like it. We can go back. Let's go back.
00:03:22 Speaker_04
No, I kind of like it.
00:03:23 Speaker_08
I don't like it because I don't really get to see.
00:03:26 Speaker_04
Okay, we got to go back. We're going to go back. I was willing to do it this way though.
00:03:29 Speaker_08
I do have needs and I'm learning how to speak them.
00:03:35 Speaker_04
Rigid, rigid, rigid.
00:03:36 Speaker_08
Rigidity, rigidity. I will own that.
00:03:39 Speaker_04
She's not rigid, like frigid, or what would the bad words we'd use? They're generally misogynistic, I think.
00:03:46 Speaker_06
Is there a man we could call frigid? We would call him fastidious.
00:03:50 Speaker_08
Wow, that's a good word, though.
00:03:51 Speaker_04
That's a good SAT word. Fastidious.
00:03:55 Speaker_06
It's also good for the alliteration. Fastidious.
00:03:58 Speaker_04
Can I own how embarrassing it is why I'm white? Yes. So I had plenty of time. It was so nice that you were two today. And I know there was confusion whether you were 11 or two.
00:04:05 Speaker_05
It wasn't my confusion, but here I am. Drove all the way back. It was great for me.
00:04:10 Speaker_08
To throw everyone else under the bus, it wasn't our confusion.
00:04:12 Speaker_05
No, it was someone named Adrian. Adrian fucked up, guys. Sorry, Adrian. Dear Adrian, I want you to know this was really hard.
00:04:23 Speaker_04
I write to you on the other side of a ruined day.
00:04:27 Speaker_05
A date? I could not get back, Adrian. You don't know what I planned. Oh. Because I am rigid.
00:04:33 Speaker_04
Okay, so I was like, oh, so much time. So I watched your movie, I watched half in bed and then I watched half while working out. Then I made myself for the first time ever, I ground some elk.
00:04:42 Speaker_06
Excuse me? Yes, tons of protein. Wait a minute. Time out, I'm a non-meat eater, so you've only- Oh, you are?
00:04:47 Speaker_04
I lost you.
00:04:48 Speaker_06
Some elk, like little baby elk flesh?
00:04:51 Speaker_04
Or you mean an elk antler? I purchased it ground, processed. Ground elk. Yes. And it's got 88 grams of protein in a pound, which blew my mind. So it's my first time cooking elk. Everything's golden. I got some egg whites, some elk. I'm sitting and eating.
00:05:05 Speaker_04
My wife and her good friend Ana come in and we get engaged in a political conversation, which I tend to avoid. And they were really buying it. They were like really into these points I was making.
00:05:16 Speaker_04
And then I literally started pontificating and lost track of time because I was drunk on the approval that was happening. So it's like maybe the worst reason ever to be late.
00:05:26 Speaker_05
But a very relatable reason. I can really relate to this. Can you? Yes. Anytime someone says anything nice to me, I do kind of think, wow. I should sit in this space for a minute. Or if you're interested in my point of view, great.
00:05:38 Speaker_05
You're not going to get me upstairs to my armchair podcast.
00:05:41 Speaker_04
And I wanted to be here. It was none of that stuff. It just all of a sudden I looked up and I was like, oh, I've been pontificating for quite a while. This is embarrassing. I must run now. I, of course, want to know what points you were making.
00:05:51 Speaker_08
Same, but I'm also scared, but I am interested.
00:05:55 Speaker_04
It'd be bad. Oh. Well, what's really fun is the they're eating dogs. They're eating cats. They're eating the pets. Right. This is right. This whole thing. And it's going around. It's a meme. And people have made songs about it. And they were saying that.
00:06:08 Speaker_04
And I said, here's where I think the left doesn't get it a little bit. Of course, they're not eating dogs and cats.
00:06:14 Speaker_04
But there are lots of people on the border of Texas, Arizona, where they look in their backyard and there's like 12 people moving through their backyard. They're very scared. They don't really care if it's dogs or cats.
00:06:25 Speaker_04
They're just going like, OK, so this guy understands. My comp was if you live in L.A., we have a relationship with the homeless that we wouldn't have if we didn't live here, I think.
00:06:35 Speaker_04
And so if Trump gets on and says the homeless are eating dogs and cats, I'm like, they're not. But this guy's concerned about the thing that's around me nonstop.
00:06:43 Speaker_04
So we think because we have the factual point that we've won, but we're failing to dig a little deeper and go, why does that crazy lie still appeal? What is the foundation? Why? That's an appealing statement.
00:06:55 Speaker_04
I'm very afraid of all the people coming over the border. You know, that's what they're saying. So anyways, that was the conversation.
00:07:01 Speaker_06
That's interesting. I guess what I feel about it is my comp to this would be, but it's the same thing as only watching MSNBC or only watching Fox News.
00:07:10 Speaker_06
It's like you just want to be told the thing that will make you feel like all the things we want to be told, seen, understood, heard.
00:07:18 Speaker_06
Part of a group of people who have a shared sense of whatever matters to you makes you feel like you belong somewhere.
00:07:24 Speaker_06
So that's your thing is saying maybe the left is focusing too much on the factual inaccuracy as opposed to what is the fundamental tether. Yeah.
00:07:30 Speaker_04
The knockout punch to comfort that side isn't to go. He got the fat wrong. So the whole thing's off the table. It should be more like, listen, we definitely need a labor market. We want to have people coming in. We want to have work visas.
00:07:41 Speaker_04
Obviously, we should not be letting people in that haven't applied. We shouldn't be allowing people to flood over the border. We should be acknowledging what the fear is.
00:07:49 Speaker_08
But Kamala and Biden have an incredibly conservative border policy right now. So it's also not about that.
00:07:55 Speaker_04
She's afraid to say what this great policy is.
00:07:57 Speaker_08
No, it's available. And so I hear you and I love that you do this. Well, sometimes I like that you do it.
00:08:03 Speaker_06
If I were, the subtextual story there felt a little bit like, I love that you do this, you great big idiot.
00:08:14 Speaker_08
I love that you do this. I am exhausted by it, though I do appreciate it because it is really important for us to see everyone's perspectives on this. But I think a lot of them truly and this isn't calling anyone dumb.
00:08:28 Speaker_08
They do believe what he says, and they do take it as truth, and that's the danger. If he just said, they're coming over, and it's really bad. But these specific lies about they're coming for our pets, or there's never been more crowds in history.
00:08:42 Speaker_08
People don't leave my rallies.
00:08:44 Speaker_05
That's my bad, Donald Trump. I'm doing it accordion hand. Get a good physical action. Yeah, they love it.
00:08:48 Speaker_04
I can't do it, and I think that's been a blessing, because I think if I could do him, I would do it all the time, and we would have a very political show, and I don't want a political show. I just can't do it.
00:08:56 Speaker_08
Yeah, because he can't help himself if he has one in the tank. You'll heal our Arnold probably, maybe today.
00:09:02 Speaker_04
Well, I'm going to make this more about Sarah. Well, I'm gonna try. You don't have to. Unless you ever wanted to have a conversation with Arnold Schwarzenegger.
00:09:09 Speaker_06
No, but I mean I could have a conversation as Holly Hunter with you. Oh. I don't know. That's kind of great. It's great.
00:09:15 Speaker_04
I'm gonna join you with this guy because he likes to talk a little bit. He's like the male Holly Hunter because he's got a little whistle too. That's great. You sound just like him. You sound just like Holly Hunter. Oh my God, thank you.
00:09:25 Speaker_04
And I love Holly Hunter. I love her too. I love myself too. I really do love Holly Hunter.
00:09:31 Speaker_06
I love Holly Hunter too. And I would like to see more of Holly Hunter out in the world doing her acting thing because I love it so much.
00:09:37 Speaker_04
Raising Arizona.
00:09:37 Speaker_06
Oh my God. Oh, I won't be a- Go get me a baby hat. I need ya. Ya'll need me a baby. I just love it. All babies are beautiful.
00:09:46 Speaker_08
You did her in Studio 60.
00:09:48 Speaker_06
I think I did.
00:09:50 Speaker_08
I was obsessed with that show.
00:09:51 Speaker_06
I think that's how I got the part, because I did impressions.
00:09:55 Speaker_08
Yeah, well you were great on that show.
00:09:56 Speaker_06
Thanks. I think everybody auditioned for that. It was back in the day, I don't know if you remember this. By the way, it was called Studio 7 back then. And I remember when they moved it to Studio 6 and we were like, that's terrible.
00:10:06 Speaker_06
Studio 7 is so much better. Now when I think of Studio 7, I'm like, that sounds terrible. Yeah. I mean, it was the show that everybody wanted. Sorkin, first project for Perry Post Friends, first project for Bradley Whitford Post West Wing.
00:10:17 Speaker_06
It was Tommy Schlami directing. I thought I was super set after I got that job. I'm sure you did. I really did. And guess what? Canceled after 22. Maybe less than that. It was one season. I think we even had to give an episode. I'm going to say this.
00:10:31 Speaker_06
I don't know if I'll get sued for this, but Who fucking cares? What if there is a department? At this point, the department's like, you cannot say this true thing that happened to you. You cannot say it.
00:10:39 Speaker_06
In order to get the back nine, remember that terminology, the back nine.
00:10:44 Speaker_04
So just to let the listener in, they generally would order 13 out of the gates. If they liked your pilot, they'd either order six, which you might as well not even show off.
00:10:51 Speaker_06
You might as well not do it. Your mid-season replacement six episode, you're like, not a great start.
00:10:54 Speaker_04
The list is short of shows that started that way. And then more conventionally, they would do 13. And if it's going well, they'll add nine to bring it up.
00:11:00 Speaker_06
I think Grey's Anatomy was a weird mid-season replacement.
00:11:03 Speaker_06
So sometimes it happens, but I remember we did our 13, and then in order to get the pickup for the back nine, because the show was so expensive at the time, we had to give back like an episode, and I basically did it for free.
00:11:15 Speaker_04
So you basically were like, pay me for 20, I'll do 21. I mean, you didn't suggest that.
00:11:19 Speaker_06
Correct, and I sure didn't, because I was not making what the other folks were making at that time. And I was like, I'll do anything just to keep it going.
00:11:25 Speaker_04
Well, we all have these historic cases where a show found its audience in season two or three. So you cling on to these things.
00:11:31 Speaker_06
It's really true.
00:11:32 Speaker_08
Is that where you met Amanda?
00:11:33 Speaker_06
Amanda and I did a show called Jack and Jill.
00:11:35 Speaker_08
Loved Jack and Jill.
00:11:36 Speaker_06
That show, that's where we met. That is where we met.
00:11:40 Speaker_05
Wow. Monica revealing her television taste. Can I tell you?
00:11:44 Speaker_04
Her early aughts. You're getting a very sparkly version of Monica for some reason today. I love Sarah. Did you have a great day?
00:11:50 Speaker_08
No, I'm just so pissed.
00:11:51 Speaker_04
Yeah, me too.
00:11:51 Speaker_08
I've been wanting you for so long.
00:11:53 Speaker_04
Should we start with that?
00:11:54 Speaker_08
Yeah.
00:11:54 Speaker_04
I find you like, I don't know if I thought you were real.
00:11:58 Speaker_08
What?
00:11:58 Speaker_04
Yeah. And I hope you take that as a huge compliment. I'm going to. Do you think Daniel Day-Lewis is real?
00:12:06 Speaker_06
I do actually know what you mean, but I don't know what you mean when you use my name and then you say Daniel Day-Lewis.
00:12:11 Speaker_04
I sort of am like, what the f... And this isn't a shootout for number one. It's simply the man disappears in a way that I'm not sure he's a real man. And I don't know if I met him. I just don't know what I would do with it.
00:12:22 Speaker_04
I have to put you in that category, which I've seen so much of what you've done. And it's so all over the map. So impressively so every time. I'm kind of like, I'm never going to cross paths with that unicorn, that little creature that's out there.
00:12:34 Speaker_04
You're one of those. It's an enigma.
00:12:36 Speaker_06
That is the biggest compliment in the world. Oh, good. Just because my dream, I mean, I make a joke all the time about how all I want is a peg leg and a black tooth. No offense to anyone with a peg leg or a black tooth.
00:12:47 Speaker_06
My point is, I want to do something always that is so outside of my own experience and existence. As an actor, I always wanted that, even when I was very young. But I never thought I'd get it.
00:12:58 Speaker_06
It was only because of the Ryan Murphy stuff and the weird dovetail magical thing that happened.
00:13:03 Speaker_06
Doing a show like American Horror Story that was on for so many years and doing a different character every year, which sort of encouraged the audience to accept me in a new form every time. What are we going to see Evan Peters do this year?
00:13:14 Speaker_06
And what's Jessica Lange going to do? And who are we going to play? But for us, it was always just like going in the old ratty costumes prop closet and pulling out a nasty wig and a weird robe and being like, this is who I get to be this season.
00:13:24 Speaker_06
That little childhood actor part.
00:13:27 Speaker_05
Do you fear? Everything.
00:13:30 Speaker_04
The range is so outrageous and a lot of them are kind of story driven and I guess they lead you in ways, but do you have any fear that you'll run out of characters?
00:13:47 Speaker_06
Yes, I do. Or what am I going to do that is going to be surprising for me and interesting for me and not have the audience be like, oh, God, this bitch again. Look at her.
00:13:58 Speaker_06
Oh, she's got fake teeth in and she's wearing glasses where that becomes the expectation.
00:14:01 Speaker_04
Or if you did, some people are like, that's Marsha Clark in a green wig. You wouldn't want to get caught.
00:14:06 Speaker_06
I wouldn't. That would be bad.
00:14:09 Speaker_04
Okay, you started in Tampa.
00:14:11 Speaker_06
Till five.
00:14:12 Speaker_04
You have a little sister. She's two years younger.
00:14:14 Speaker_06
Well, this is where my horrible math thing comes into play, which is we are Irish twins, essentially. But I can never remember if we're 17 or 19 months apart. She's born July of 76, and I'm December of 74. Is that 17 months?
00:14:25 Speaker_04
July. There's a seven, a five, five plus 12, 17.
00:14:30 Speaker_06
Okay, so we're 17 months apart. So she's my little sister, yeah, Elizabeth.
00:14:34 Speaker_04
So under two years apart, I would say is key and over a year apart. It's not crazy. So you're the older sibling. You're supposed to be a certain way. Do you think you are that way?
00:14:43 Speaker_06
I do. How many siblings do you have?
00:14:45 Speaker_04
I have an older brother and a younger sister.
00:14:46 Speaker_06
Oh, so you're middle.
00:14:47 Speaker_04
And then I have two little girls. So I'm watching that whole thing play out.
00:14:51 Speaker_08
And they're Irish twins as well. And I'm a firstborn.
00:14:53 Speaker_06
And are you the way you're supposed to be?
00:14:55 Speaker_08
absolute member earlier when we were talking about rigidness?
00:14:57 Speaker_06
Oh yeah, we were talking about rigidness, yeah. Rigidity. Yeah. I'm controlling. Uh-huh, good. I'm also, I think, the chosen one in my family.
00:15:03 Speaker_06
I got to take care of everyone, but also maybe this is a little bit off-brand for it, but I don't feel like I had particularly strict parents. My parents were 21 and 22 when they had me, so we're super, super young.
00:15:14 Speaker_06
So there was nothing strict about anything about my upbringing, but I do think they liked me best. My sister will hear this. She's going to agree. I got away with a lot more than my sister did, funnily enough.
00:15:24 Speaker_08
But were you better at doing the bad behavior?
00:15:27 Speaker_06
My sister was much more honest and I was a big fat liar. She was really like, I want Coca-Cola for breakfast. And I looked around and I was like, oh, everyone thought that was really cute, but also really like a childish thing to do.
00:15:40 Speaker_06
And I would look around and think the most impressive thing I could do would be to ask for a glass of milk. And so I would ask for the thing that would make them think I was super You counterpunched.
00:15:49 Speaker_06
I was doing a counterpunch and my sister was much more truthful. And I was constantly hypervigilant and really assessing like the bionic woman like, what would get me the most likes? Ask for the grownup thing, play quietly by myself.
00:16:04 Speaker_06
My sister was the tugger. Mom, mom, mom, mom. And I remember looking at her being like, you're not going to get anything you want that way. So I would just be like reading a book in the corner.
00:16:13 Speaker_06
I was a big, big reader, but I remember reading and my sister just being like, mom, mom, mom. And my mom being like, shut up. And I thought, if I don't do that, mom's going to ask me if I want to go shopping, which I did.
00:16:23 Speaker_04
There could be multiple incentives with this approach, because this was mine as well, even though I was middle. My brother wanted cool jeans and a certain bicycle and all this shit. My mom was broke and single mom.
00:16:34 Speaker_05
I had a single mom too.
00:16:35 Speaker_04
I'm curious. Part of it is like, yeah, I wanted lots of adoration. Yes. For sure. Can't get enough of it.
00:16:40 Speaker_06
Still can't. Meaning me. I'm not saying you.
00:16:43 Speaker_04
A healthy version of actually worried about my mother. Me too. She's overwhelmed. This is too much. I can't be the 18th thing on her plate. So some codependency motivation as well. You relate to that.
00:16:54 Speaker_06
Oh my God. Yeah.
00:16:55 Speaker_04
Cause she was way the fucking overhead, right? She leaves with two little kids and goes to New York city with not knowing anybody. Yeah. She didn't know anybody. Why did she want to go there?
00:17:03 Speaker_06
She wanted to be a writer.
00:17:04 Speaker_04
She thought they only had typewriters in New York.
00:17:07 Speaker_06
I think also she could speak to this much more clearly than I could, but she grew up in a very conservative, religious family. And my mom was just, and is still, a real free spirit and just felt totally straitjacketed living in that town.
00:17:19 Speaker_06
And it just was not for her. And so she, at 27 years old, packed me and my sister up and we went and moved to New York. And my mom was just doing that on her own and got a job at Sardi's and was a waitress there.
00:17:30 Speaker_04
It made me think of this. Have you ever worked with the first AD, David Sardi? No, I have not. Oh, darn.
00:17:35 Speaker_06
Who the hell is David Sardi?
00:17:36 Speaker_04
David Sardi is the first AD. He was mine on a movie.
00:17:39 Speaker_06
Is he a Sardi?
00:17:39 Speaker_04
Yeah, yeah. So he grew up working in that kitchen and everything. Whoa, weird.
00:17:42 Speaker_10
Whoa.
00:17:43 Speaker_04
Yeah. Do you know what Sardi's is? I've never heard of it. It's a total institution, right? I want to say he told me at one time how many meals they'll serve at a dinner service, but it's in the thousands.
00:17:52 Speaker_06
It's a pre and post-theater institution. It's like you either go to Sardi's before you go to the play.
00:17:56 Speaker_06
When you're doing a play, you're very pissed at everyone who went to Sardi's because they've all had two martinis and a big fat steak, and they're sleeping, and you're like, wake up!
00:18:02 Speaker_06
Thursday through Saturday, you're like, everyone went to Sardi's before they saw Sardi's. Or you go their post-show. And get a little lit up. And you get a little lit up for that.
00:18:11 Speaker_04
And so one thing we're earmarking, we're not paying off yet. One of the things Sardis is famous for is they have cartoon characters.
00:18:18 Speaker_06
They do have all this sort of Broadway performers.
00:18:20 Speaker_04
Broadway legends. And there's a famous wall with the characters. OK, so just know that that's what happens at Sardis. OK, so your mother lands you guys.
00:18:28 Speaker_04
And I guess, well, you go to Maine for a second, but then you go to Queens and then you go to Brooklyn.
00:18:31 Speaker_06
We were in Brooklyn first. We moved so, so, so much, which was not easy. And at the same time, I think has really steadied me and readied me for the work I do. I'm always a person who's like, I'm going to go home after work, even if I'm in Winnipeg.
00:18:45 Speaker_06
And people are like, you're going home or to the hotel? And I was like, oh yeah, wherever I am, I need to call it that. It feels like that to me wherever I am. Do you take any- Home goods? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:54 Speaker_04
Do you decorate? I don't.
00:18:55 Speaker_06
I just am sort of like, wherever the bed is, I feel like it's a consequence of moving. Who knows? It might be a little bit like Stockholm syndrome. It just was like, this is what feels familiar.
00:19:03 Speaker_06
And so doing this feels better than looking at the same wall over and over and over again. Because then I start to feel like time has stopped and that's another kind of terror.
00:19:10 Speaker_08
Do you feel that in relationships? Like commitments?
00:19:13 Speaker_06
I've always been in a committed relationship. I've so rarely been single. Wow. I had one chunk of like a five-year period and that was really the longest I went. This leads to our pin. Yeah, this is our pin pre-you showing up.
00:19:24 Speaker_06
Back when I was pontificating. Back when you were pontificating in your kitchen with your wife and her friend.
00:19:28 Speaker_08
Weirdly, which is a ding, ding, ding, because we were talking about pets and dogs and cats.
00:19:33 Speaker_04
Oh my God.
00:19:35 Speaker_05
What if a person takes this?
00:19:37 Speaker_04
There's a softer one behind you, though.
00:19:38 Speaker_05
Yeah, but both are available. I'm just like a cold person.
00:19:41 Speaker_04
I'm a hot person.
00:19:42 Speaker_05
Well, obviously, because it's freezing in here.
00:19:45 Speaker_06
No big deal. Totally fine. I was in here first. Freezing cold before you got here, but it's fine.
00:19:49 Speaker_04
We had Jeff Bridges in here.
00:19:50 Speaker_06
Literally, besides Gene Hackman, my favorite actor of all time.
00:19:53 Speaker_04
Will we put Paul Newman in there?
00:19:54 Speaker_06
I like Paul Newman, but for me, it's Gene Hackman and Jeff Bridges are the men. And Alan Rickman make me bonkers mental.
00:20:00 Speaker_04
Those are great picks. I applaud those. But he got here, it was during the heat wave, and we didn't turn the air on early enough. It probably went on an hour before he got here, and he got in here and he goes, oh, it's warm, is it gonna get cooler?
00:20:09 Speaker_04
And I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gonna get cooler. And it did not get cooler. And I think it probably got hotter. And I was just watching, I'm like, I'm gonna kill Jeff Bridges.
00:20:16 Speaker_06
You can't do that.
00:20:17 Speaker_04
Nothing can kill Jeff Bridges. Okay, so back to mom. She first goes to Brooklyn.
00:20:21 Speaker_06
We moved to Maine because my grandparents did the weird backwards thing of, you know how you normally live in Maine and you go to Florida to live out your- Snowbird. So my grandparents did the opposite.
00:20:30 Speaker_06
My grandmother was born in Mobile, Alabama, my grandfather in Florida. And then they started summering the way people, I mean, people use the word summer.
00:20:37 Speaker_05
Yeah.
00:20:37 Speaker_06
I'm summering. It's like, what?
00:20:39 Speaker_05
It is summer. I don't know what summering is.
00:20:41 Speaker_08
Yeah, who said summer is a verb?
00:20:43 Speaker_06
Yeah, summer is a verb, but they would go to Maine. for the summer and then they decided to move there. And so my mom decided to move there for a year. She didn't know what to do. She had a breakup.
00:20:52 Speaker_06
We went and we lived with my grandparents and we got our own place and we lived there for a year and then moved back. Then I moved back to Florida to live with my dad.
00:20:58 Speaker_04
This is a terrible schedule for you. At least as is printed, you would go in the summers to see that, which makes sense scholastically.
00:21:05 Speaker_05
But really, really unpleasant from a physical standpoint. All blessings to Florida, but fucking hell on earth.
00:21:12 Speaker_08
And also when you're supposed to be like hanging with your friends and stuff.
00:21:15 Speaker_06
I know, it was always a little bit of a thing. My mom had us all during the year.
00:21:19 Speaker_04
She needed a fucking break.
00:21:20 Speaker_06
She needed a fucking break and then we would go there.
00:21:22 Speaker_04
She needed to hook up with some of the dudes at Sardi's on the waitstaff, right? That's a wild group.
00:21:27 Speaker_06
It's a wild group. My mom was the only person who worked at Sardi's who had kids at that time.
00:21:31 Speaker_04
Did she date? Were there any stepdads?
00:21:33 Speaker_06
Oh my God.
00:21:34 Speaker_04
It's okay. It's really not a big deal. It's kind of cute the way it fell.
00:21:37 Speaker_06
It's water. Water over all of the electrical devices. Guys, guys. I'm just going to sit here. That is not an absorbent cloth, but you can, it's like a shawl. Did you see how I didn't jump up? Everybody's cleaning. I'm just going to narrate it.
00:21:50 Speaker_06
Oh, you're taking the mic away from me. People want to hear about this.
00:21:53 Speaker_05
There is a sparkly bubbling lime beverage on the floor. Of course it happened when we were talking about stepdads. I know. Interesting. You're like talking about my mom's sex life and I was like, Asking my mom was dating.
00:22:04 Speaker_05
I was like, pardon me while I spill everything immediately and then I don't have to answer this question.
00:22:09 Speaker_06
Anyway, my mom had some boyfriends. Poor mom. Hi, mom. If you hear this, I apologize in advance, but my mom was a single lady. She was 27 years old. Like I can't imagine. So she had some boyfriends, some of whom I didn't like.
00:22:22 Speaker_06
Then she had one very serious boyfriend who I really liked. He was around for a while, but then he went away too. And then that was hard.
00:22:28 Speaker_04
I don't think you can win. You either like them and then they go away or you hate them like I did and they go away.
00:22:33 Speaker_06
Right. And they don't go away fast enough. I mean, I wanted my mom to be with someone and it's not like I was pining for her and my father to be back together. I didn't really have that. And they both trash talked each other so much to us.
00:22:42 Speaker_06
That was a bad thing because my dad was always making fun of my mom and my mom was always saying dad wasn't playing the child support. And so it was always this thing where my sister and I were like, Are we supposed to not like dad?
00:22:51 Speaker_06
Cause we really love going there in the summer. And my dad was very successful. And so he had this fancy-ish life that we felt was really glamorous and, you know, the swimming pool that we got to go in and ice cream cones.
00:23:01 Speaker_04
VHS recorder.
00:23:02 Speaker_06
VHS recorder trips to the mall, getting dropped off at Fuddruckers and like getting some big fat fries with the sprinkled stuff, whatever they put on there. Double doozies from the mall, the cookies with the frosting in the middle.
00:23:12 Speaker_08
Oh my God.
00:23:13 Speaker_04
Dads don't give a fuck about health.
00:23:15 Speaker_06
They're like, yeah, we'll drop you off at the mall, go see 16 movies, come back with like a purple tongue from, what was it called? A kamikaze or something? Jawbreaker? No, when you would like go to the self- Slushie machine.
00:23:25 Speaker_06
Slushie machine, and you could just put purple and pink and blue, and then the Coca-Cola with the Sprite was seven up, whatever the hell that was called.
00:23:32 Speaker_06
We just did that and eating all the food and just coming home just like, and it was just heaven for us. And I think my mom was a little like, oh, it's great that you get to go down there with your dad and do all that.
00:23:42 Speaker_06
And now you got to do all this other stuff at home, take the trash out and do all that. Be responsible. And so my dad loved being the one. I think that we were so happy to be there. And my mom was dealing with real life. That was a complicated thing.
00:23:56 Speaker_06
My parents really talk shit about each other in a way that made us not know exactly who we were supposed to be supporting.
00:24:01 Speaker_06
And it's like the first time my sister and I experienced that thing of like, are you supposed to side with the person you're with? Or are you supposed to defend the person? Or we didn't really know what the right thing to do was.
00:24:11 Speaker_06
And then I think it would create a lot of guilt.
00:24:13 Speaker_08
There's been studies that it's akin to abuse.
00:24:16 Speaker_05
Well, mom, dad, I'm here to tell you, Monica wants you to know. I don't know if you're listening. I'll send this to you to let you know those therapy bills I'm sending you.
00:24:26 Speaker_08
It's very damaging.
00:24:28 Speaker_05
Yeah, I was confused.
00:24:29 Speaker_06
I mean, you love your parents. Also, I think it was too early to introduce this idea of questioning what your parent was like outside of your relationship to them, what they were in the world in terms of assessing them as human beings.
00:24:44 Speaker_06
It was like too early for my sister and I to have that ability to be like, well, why doesn't dad like mom? And why doesn't mom like dad? And why isn't dad paying the child support? Or is he?
00:24:53 Speaker_06
It put too fine a point on questioning who they were as people and everyone's intentions, as opposed to just this like safe space for caregiving and all that other stuff.
00:25:03 Speaker_04
And you can see where it would be really tempting too, because I'm even still with my wife and around the children and I have to police myself because I have a very sneaky way where I could make fun of mom in front of everyone. Totally.
00:25:15 Speaker_04
And it's actually just a grievance I have and I have to stop myself, but it's in the chamber. I really understand. And if she weren't around and we were divorced and I hated her. I think it would be even that much harder.
00:25:27 Speaker_06
We come from a family of, my dad was a big teaser. And so that's how my sister and I, even to this day, she says my arm looks, my arm looks like a kielbasa sausage. And she's not wrong. It does sort of look- It's not very nice.
00:25:39 Speaker_06
It's not very nice, but she's not wrong, you know? And I say some things to her too. But we really go at each other, but we just start laughing. But deep down when I go to put on a sleeveless shirt, I do think like, is my arm like a kielbasa sausage?
00:25:53 Speaker_06
I probably should just maybe wear a longer sleeve shirt. Or she said that my face when it's upside down. Oh, she said my nose looks like a mushroom. I like how I'm only saying the things she says about me just to engender some goodwill.
00:26:05 Speaker_04
This is your interview. I'm sure you only tell her how gorgeous her hair looks and how well-spoken she is.
00:26:09 Speaker_06
No, sometimes I make comments about things I do.
00:26:11 Speaker_04
Sure. as a sibling, love it. Kathryn Hahn was just on too, and she was saying that her family let it rip in a way that was so evil, and she's having to break that cycle, and me too, because I've already walked halfway down the path.
00:26:22 Speaker_04
You still can get made fun of in our house.
00:26:25 Speaker_06
Yes, I do think it's a real asset to be a person who can laugh at yourself. I agree. In the world. If you've got that in your back pocket, you can kind of- Weather some storms.
00:26:33 Speaker_06
It's that Carrie Fisher quote, which I will not say perfectly, which is like, you've got to find the funny, because if it isn't funny, then it's just true, and that would be unbearable. You got to find a way sometimes to laugh at yourself.
00:26:44 Speaker_04
It's kind of a gift they give you because I see this in our kids. The eldest has a really hard time with rejection or disapproval because she grew up with two people staring at her thinking she was God's gift to planet Earth.
00:26:56 Speaker_04
The little sister gets rejected a hundred times a day by the older sister. So she moves through the world and she's like, I'm going to go say hi to this person. They might say, get out of here. I don't care.
00:27:05 Speaker_04
That'll be the 81st time someone said something shitty to me today. You get made numb to it. which can be an asset.
00:27:10 Speaker_06
That's right. Sibling stuff is so interesting to me.
00:27:13 Speaker_04
It is. I'm comforted that you're still making fun of each other. That means you talk. She lives very close to here and she was like, wait, you're going to be nearby.
00:27:19 Speaker_06
And I was like, yeah, I'm not coming over. I got you to do. But she's one of my favorite people in the world. We're the only ones who are around for our parents and our experiences as children.
00:27:28 Speaker_04
I'm writing about it at the moment and I recall the moment my brother and I looked at each other, or at least it's seared in my head as the first time, maybe it happened before, but there was definitely a moment where we're sitting in the backseat of the car in the wintertime and the house is on fire and the stepdad who passed out and cooked a steak while my mom was at work, this whole circus.
00:27:43 Speaker_04
And now the fire department's there and they're fighting. And we were in the backseat and we both looked at each other as if to say, Oh, they're all crazy. Everyone's nuts, right? Fuck, it's you and I. Right.
00:27:55 Speaker_06
And you just want someone to sort of acknowledge that they see what you see.
00:28:00 Speaker_04
That's another gift. You can bond in a way if you grew up in some chaos.
00:28:03 Speaker_06
It's true. And we are the first to laugh at ourselves and each other. And all we do is make fun of my mom.
00:28:07 Speaker_04
That's her job now. Yeah, yeah. Is to take it on the chin. That's right. Sorry, mom. It's your turn in the barrel.
00:28:16 Speaker_10
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
00:28:23 Speaker_00
In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her.
00:28:38 Speaker_00
And she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the internet is The Kill List. A cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses, and specific instructions for people's murders.
00:28:53 Speaker_00
This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those whose lives were in danger. And it turns out, convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy.
00:29:06 Speaker_00
Follow Kill List on the Wandery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C True Crime shows like Morbid early and add free right now by joining Wandory Plus.
00:29:17 Speaker_00
Check out Exhibit C in the Wandory app for all your True Crime listening.
00:29:21 Speaker_01
What's up, guys? It's your girl, Keke, and my podcast is back with a new season. And let me tell you, it's too good. And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?
00:29:31 Speaker_01
Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation. And I don't mean just friends. I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on. And now I have my own YouTube channel.
00:29:42 Speaker_01
So follow, watch, and listen to Baby, This is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch full episodes on YouTube, and you can listen to Baby, This is Keke Palmer early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery.
00:29:55 Speaker_01
And, uh, where are my headphones? Because, uh, it's time to get into it. Holler at your girl!
00:30:01 Speaker_03
Hey, Armcherries, quick question for you. Have you ever stopped to wonder who came up with that bottle of sriracha sitting in your fridge? Or why almost every house in America has a game of Monopoly stashed away somewhere? Well, this is Nick.
00:30:13 Speaker_03
And this is Jack. And we just launched a brand new podcast called The Best Idea Yet. It's all about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the people who brought them to life.
00:30:25 Speaker_03
Like Super Mario, the best-selling video game character ever. He's only a thing because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye. Or Jack, how about McDonald's Happy Meal? Believe it or not, the Happy Meal was dreamed up by a mom in Guatemala.
00:30:37 Speaker_03
Every week on The Best Idea Yet, you'll discover the surprising stories behind the most viral products of all time, while picking up real business insights along the way.
00:30:46 Speaker_03
We guarantee you'll be that person at your next dinner party dropping knowledge bombs at the table. Follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:30:55 Speaker_03
You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
00:31:07 Speaker_04
OK, so when in this childhood of moving around a lot and ending up in Park Slope, I guess, for the longest period.
00:31:13 Speaker_06
Yes, that's right.
00:31:14 Speaker_04
When do you decide that you're theatrically inclined?
00:31:17 Speaker_06
I think it happened long before then. I really think it happened when I was in utero. I have to imagine that it did. My mom would confirm for you that there was never a time when I didn't want to be an actress.
00:31:28 Speaker_04
And what kind of weird stuff were you doing?
00:31:29 Speaker_06
Imitating commercials in the bathroom. You know, a lot of Prel, commercial member Prel, I'm sure you do.
00:31:34 Speaker_06
Swirling my hair around and shaking the mirror and insisting that we put on plays that I would direct and my sister would have to play every part I wanted, but I would play all the good parts and she would be like the teapot or something.
00:31:43 Speaker_06
Always wanting to do that for the family and listen to me sing this song. And I have a singing voice that is so shockingly bad. And there are all these pictures of me in front of the wall of books, just singing my little heart out from Annie.
00:31:55 Speaker_06
I just was always that way.
00:31:56 Speaker_04
Were you getting to go to any musicals? Did you go see Annie as a kid?
00:31:59 Speaker_06
You know, there's that story, which I've told before, which is I lied and told everyone when I went to my new school that I was very close to getting the part of Annie in the movie. Oh, that's wonderful. You see that actress? It was almost me.
00:32:11 Speaker_06
You know, like I just created a whole story. It's just early acting, which is just a lot of really convincing lying.
00:32:17 Speaker_04
Well, there's a thin line between a motivation board or what do they call them? A vision board. A vision board and actually not just saying out loud.
00:32:24 Speaker_06
Like it happened. Yeah.
00:32:25 Speaker_08
Wow.
00:32:25 Speaker_06
You were ahead of your time. When I think about it now, I'm just like, you're really desperate to matter or to seem important. It was somehow very clear from an early age that I obviously didn't feel that just my own being was enough.
00:32:39 Speaker_06
I had to create some story about being chosen for this very special thing.
00:32:44 Speaker_08
Well, you still have it. You're saying even with the parts you play, you don't want to play
00:32:47 Speaker_06
I want to play something as far away from me as possible.
00:32:50 Speaker_06
And I want the challenge of trying to inhabit some other, like the Linda Tripp thing was probably the greatest acting challenge of my life and the work I'm the most proud of, even though a lot of people didn't watch it.
00:33:00 Speaker_06
And a lot of people didn't like it so much. Critically, I got really, really, yeah, I did, but in a very funky way. I remember reading one review that was about what would Sarah Paulson know about loneliness?
00:33:11 Speaker_06
A lot of it was talking about me as a person playing this person who was sort of unseen and forgotten by society and then did this really, really despicable thing. It was just an interesting thing that there was a personal take.
00:33:25 Speaker_06
I shouldn't be the one to do it because I wouldn't know what that's about.
00:33:28 Speaker_04
Almost like it wasn't your story to tell. Yeah.
00:33:30 Speaker_06
Well, also as a thin actress playing a woman who was not. Physically, I looked so different from her and that I was playing a woman who was profoundly lonely.
00:33:39 Speaker_06
At least in our version of the story, that was what motivated her subpar, to put it mildly, choices that she made.
00:33:44 Speaker_04
I think as I've grown, my list of people I hate is really, really small. If you ask me on any given day, I really can't think of anybody. But I have to say there's a couple I still have and I'm going to hold on to them. And I really hated Linda Tripp.
00:33:57 Speaker_04
I really, really despised what she had done to that young girl and cool the context why it motivated her. That's always going to interest me.
00:34:06 Speaker_04
But I'm holding some space for I think she was at least for that chunk of her life was a really terrible person because I don't mind when people's. fuck uppery injures themselves. But when your version destroys another human being.
00:34:20 Speaker_06
The only thing I would say or posit as I like to use the word posit.
00:34:25 Speaker_04
For a gal who didn't go to college.
00:34:27 Speaker_06
And I sure didn't go to college. Is that I think people know not what they do sometimes.
00:34:32 Speaker_06
which is why I would separate it from her being a terrible person versus a person who is consciously trying to, for example, I don't think she was capable of seeing the forest through the trees in terms of the consequence, the global fascination and the explosion in terms of Monica being destroyed.
00:34:47 Speaker_06
And in Linda's mind, the idea that Monica came from money and that Monica was beautiful and that Monica had a leg up that Linda never had. So in her mind, when you have those things, there will be no strikes against you.
00:34:56 Speaker_08
It's punching down all
00:34:57 Speaker_06
Exactly. And so I think for Linda, she was like, and it's even in the script, I remember it was like, Monica will be fine.
00:35:03 Speaker_06
There's no danger to Monica because for Linda, so much of what her experience was, was being so invisible that she thought, if you look like that, if you come from that kind of family, you will have everything.
00:35:14 Speaker_06
And the reason I didn't have any of these things is because I don't look like that. I don't have that. So she was unable to see.
00:35:20 Speaker_04
And that's a very relatable point of view. I have admitted to that in the past where it's like, I felt like My life was unjust. And so I felt entitled to do things that were very bad, to right-size the scams. Like I stole.
00:35:34 Speaker_04
I'm like, yeah, well, rich people have money. I don't have money.
00:35:36 Speaker_06
I did that too, from the candy store and maybe from Betsy Johnson once. She deserved it. a long-sleeved bodysuit that in the 90s where the big, remember like girls would wear those crushed velvet bodysuits with a big belt and a baggy jean?
00:35:47 Speaker_05
That sounds cute. I could wear that bag.
00:35:48 Speaker_06
It's super cute, but I did wear one out of the store once. Sorry, Betsy. This was like something I did in New York, but I would justify it.
00:35:54 Speaker_06
Like my mom put me in a private school that she couldn't afford and she would work in the office to pay off the tuition. And I was going to school with Louise Bourgeois' granddaughter. We don't own the Brownstone.
00:36:05 Speaker_06
My mom had an apartment on the top of this Brownstone. And it's like, if we went to the Gap, we would get the slouchy socks, but I couldn't get an outfit. I felt like there was something unfair about this.
00:36:13 Speaker_06
I'm being subjected to this influx of wealth and money or being inundated by this in a way that I can't compete. And what I didn't have was conversations with my mom about what that was about and values.
00:36:23 Speaker_06
And even if I did, I don't know that it would have registered for me at that age in terms of it being meaningful. I just knew I didn't have something that I wanted. It was the language spoken amongst the people I was with and they hadn't earned it.
00:36:32 Speaker_06
They were just getting it because their parents had it. And so I felt like I didn't take these songs and it's not something I'm proud of to this day. And of course, if I had a child, I would not encourage it.
00:36:40 Speaker_06
Once I stole something, I remember from a store in the West Village when I was very young and my mother made me go back and give it to them.
00:36:46 Speaker_06
And I remember exactly like what I was wearing and how itchy my coat was and crying and just being so mortified. But it was just that feeling of, am I owed? So I do understand psychologically Why Linda Tripp, why I don't categorize her as a bad person.
00:37:01 Speaker_06
I categorize her as a limited person who did the best she could with what she knew about what life was. And it was only through the lens, which we all do to a degree.
00:37:10 Speaker_06
It takes a certain kind of enlightenment, a certain kind of self-awareness to take your own blinders off. We all put everything through the filter of this person did X to me based on my particular makeup and history. It feels like X.
00:37:22 Speaker_06
But to someone else, you're like, oh, that doesn't feel like a big deal.
00:37:24 Speaker_06
And you're like, yeah, but to me, if I was left alone a lot as a child, which I was, and by myself all the time, and I rely on you to be here at a certain time and you're not there, it feels to me like you're rejecting me.
00:37:35 Speaker_06
Even though you just had a thing happen that for someone else, it would not be a situation. But for me, it would be.
00:37:39 Speaker_08
Yeah, nothing's really real. It's all subjective.
00:37:41 Speaker_06
Exactly. So in terms of relationships, that's the thing I might carry in or one carries in is like whatever you've experienced in your life, and it's up to you to process it and figure it out.
00:37:49 Speaker_06
I had a shrink once say to my partner and I, just because you didn't mean to trigger somebody doesn't mean you didn't. There may be wires around that you think you're stepping over. You didn't actually step over it.
00:38:00 Speaker_06
Like your intention sometimes is important to know, but it doesn't always render you innocent.
00:38:05 Speaker_04
Being on the correct high ground isn't the solution.
00:38:07 Speaker_06
Correct. It does matter that you didn't mean to. That matters to me. Yeah. Are you all right?
00:38:12 Speaker_04
I don't want to step on this with my coughing. Do I choke with a Michigan accent? You do. You sure fucking do. You're like. I wonder if I can cough if I'm a Brooklyn guy.
00:38:27 Speaker_05
Yeah, that's good. Now if you're Southern. You give me another one.
00:38:31 Speaker_04
Really good. Really good.
00:38:32 Speaker_05
Oh my. Really good French. I like your French.
00:38:37 Speaker_04
Okay, so you always wanted to be a performer. And is LaGuardia High School, is that what fame is?
00:38:46 Speaker_06
It is, although I refuse to call it LaGuardia, which is where I went. I always call it Performing Arts because that's what it was when it was over on 46th Street, I believe, which was the original building.
00:38:57 Speaker_06
They moved it, expanded it, made it larger, and it still was the Performing Arts High School of the fame days. But it was given the name, the Forello H. LaGuardia.
00:39:05 Speaker_04
And you went to the bigger version?
00:39:07 Speaker_06
I went to the bigger version. And so I was like, I'm at LaGuardia. I was like, I'm at the airport. It's not my favorite thing. There was a separate school called Professional Children's School, which is where Sarah Michelle Gellar went.
00:39:17 Speaker_06
She did a TV show called Swans Crossing back in the day.
00:39:19 Speaker_05
This was like pre-Buffy. People who were working and who could fax their homework in, I think. And I'm saying that as a person who didn't go there, but I'm assuming they'd send their homework in via fax.
00:39:27 Speaker_06
Whereas this was a school where you were not really encouraged to work professionally, but it was the same school, but there was no dancing on a table. Unfortunately.
00:39:34 Speaker_04
How much were the students aware of it? What year did that show air? It had already aired when you went there.
00:39:41 Speaker_06
Oh yes, because I went in in 89 and graduated in 93.
00:39:42 Speaker_04
Is it kind of exciting to go to a school that there's a show about?
00:39:46 Speaker_06
Yes, although the show was already on. Yeah, still. And the movie. It was cool. And also you have to audition to get in. 3,000 kids auditioned at the time I went and 60 kids were accepted to the drama department.
00:39:56 Speaker_04
Oh my goodness.
00:39:56 Speaker_06
So like that was really cool and fun and great. Although I didn't go to school a lot. I was in the Central Park Meadow and smoking so much pot. Oh, wow, good for you.
00:40:05 Speaker_06
So much pot, which I now can't smoke, because I feel like I have to go to Cedars-Sinai every time. I'm like, I can probably do it now, and it's like, I can't do it now.
00:40:10 Speaker_04
You think you can't breathe and stuff? You get like paranoia?
00:40:13 Speaker_06
It's not the drug for me.
00:40:14 Speaker_04
You should try cocaine, have you tried that? I really liked that.
00:40:16 Speaker_06
Yeah, that was really good.
00:40:17 Speaker_04
Especially for a lonely kid.
00:40:18 Speaker_05
For a really lonely kid, I was like, and also, yeah, attention. I'd look in the mirror and be like, there is no one more beautiful. I know. No one else, like no one more powerful. Oh, yeah, no more more beautiful, no more powerful, no more funny person.
00:40:30 Speaker_04
That's why the drug is so good. People's going, why do you like it? I'm like, because it made me optimistic.
00:40:33 Speaker_05
Yeah, it made me feel like the person I fucking wish I was.
00:40:37 Speaker_04
Oh, yeah. Instantly. Instantly. Monica, you should try it. You'll feel like... I gotta go.
00:40:41 Speaker_06
I'll be right back.
00:40:41 Speaker_04
Yeah.
00:40:42 Speaker_06
No, I can't do the drugs. Those days are over. I tripped on so much acid.
00:40:45 Speaker_04
Oh, you did? You were a real little druggy.
00:40:47 Speaker_06
Oh, yeah. I probably couldn't look at a paisley carpet to this day. I always think there's a cat in the corner or something. I'm always like turning quickly, be like, did something just move?
00:40:55 Speaker_04
And were you dating in high school? Were you popular? While you think, I usually wait towards the end of the interview for this, but it's striking me so hard that I'm going to say it now. Do you have a celebrity doppelganger?
00:41:09 Speaker_06
Oh, I have so many celebrities. You do?
00:41:11 Speaker_04
I'm going Millie Bobby Brown. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll give you 42 of them. I have a hundred million. Do you want to hear the weirdest thing about Millie Bobby Brown? Yeah. So you can picture her really good, right? Yeah, because I know her a tiny bit.
00:41:20 Speaker_04
Do you know who I think she looks just like? Tom Wilkinson. I know that'll fuck you up, but I pray you look at some pictures of them next to each other. He did do a side-by-side one. I sent it to Monica.
00:41:30 Speaker_04
I promise you, there's something very weirdly- I know exactly what you're talking about. Do you?
00:41:33 Speaker_06
Oh, I do. Tom Wilkinson, that's really good. I am. It's crazy. I've gotten so many people my whole life.
00:41:40 Speaker_04
I think compounded a little bit by how many characters you play.
00:41:43 Speaker_06
Maybe or how ordinary I look is sort of what I've decided. I've gotten Elizabeth Perkins from Big. Oh, sure. I get her a lot. You know who I get a lot is Adele all the time. Lana Del Rey all the time. I can see Lana Del Rey.
00:41:56 Speaker_06
You can even Google Sarah Paulson Adele and there's like 72 pictures.
00:41:59 Speaker_04
And to the degree where people mistake you in public.
00:42:01 Speaker_06
I had someone come up and ask me if I was Elizabeth Grant, which is Lana Del Rey's name.
00:42:05 Speaker_04
I've had that with Zach Braff my whole career, yeah.
00:42:06 Speaker_06
Yes, I really can understand that.
00:42:08 Speaker_04
Yeah, yeah. That's very obvious.
00:42:09 Speaker_06
I really can, it's very obvious. Wow, there are so many pictures. So many pictures of me and Adele.
00:42:13 Speaker_04
Well, fun, but you have got Millie Bobby Brown.
00:42:15 Speaker_06
Millie Bobby Brown for sure, especially there was a time on Stranger Things when she had the curly hair and I was playing Marsha Clark. There's pictures of that on there too. Oh my God, wonderful.
00:42:22 Speaker_04
Okay, well I'll try to put up some pictures of you and Wilkinson and see if we see any overlap. It's a compliment because he's such a good actor. Oh.
00:42:30 Speaker_08
Yeah, and he has a nice face.
00:42:31 Speaker_04
He died.
00:42:31 Speaker_08
Didn't he die?
00:42:32 Speaker_04
No.
00:42:33 Speaker_08
Did he? Did Tom Wilkinson die? Oh, do you have the disease I have where I think everyone's dead?
00:42:37 Speaker_04
She thinks everyone's dead. Monica thinks everyone's dead. Wait, look it up.
00:42:38 Speaker_05
He did die, right? Fuck.
00:42:39 Speaker_08
Oh, that's sad.
00:42:41 Speaker_04
His performance in Michael Clayton.
00:42:43 Speaker_08
In Stranger Things. No, he was in Stranger Things.
00:42:46 Speaker_04
No, no. You've got them mixed.
00:42:47 Speaker_08
I have to cut that because it's not respectful.
00:42:50 Speaker_05
God, I would really love to see Tom Wilkinson playing Eleven on Stranger Things. Right. Oh, that's so sad.
00:42:55 Speaker_04
He'd nail it. I guarantee he'd nail it.
00:42:57 Speaker_05
He'd nail anything.
00:42:58 Speaker_04
OK, I love your career so much because it's a mess. It's such a fucking mess.
00:43:04 Speaker_06
It is such a mess. I've never heard anybody put it that way, but I like that.
00:43:08 Speaker_04
I feel like of anyone we've interviewed, I've had so many starts where you had to have thought, finally, it's going to get easy. So let's start at the beginning, because you really quickly, you do hit the ground running.
00:43:19 Speaker_04
You're 19 in your first Broadway play, which is impressive. And you must have thought, well, fucking buckle up, bitches. Right. Next stop is the Oscars. That's not what happened at all.
00:43:28 Speaker_06
Actually, my first job ever was as an understudy. on Broadway. I understudied the great actress Amy Ryan, who is so wonderful. And I got to play it for two weeks. I was 19 years old. I didn't go to college.
00:43:38 Speaker_06
I was like, I'm going to try to do this for the first six months. I didn't get a job. I got Sister's Rosenzweig, Wendy Wasserstein play, understudying Amy Ryan. I went on for two weeks. Then I got a movie with Kathleen Turner, a movie of the week.
00:43:50 Speaker_06
Remember those? Yeah. Called Friends at Last. Hallmark. I do a really good Kathleen Turner impression.
00:43:55 Speaker_07
Oh, my God, you do. Yeah, it's really good. But it's really crazy because this is my Kathleen, but it's a very specific kind of Kathleen. It's Kathleen now, not Kathleen then. Oh, my God. Different kind. You have to go listen to her.
00:44:06 Speaker_04
Could we do some body heat scenes?
00:44:08 Speaker_07
Yeah, but I don't know any of the dialogue from this. It's different. It's Kathleen Turner today. Her voice is deeper and richer and even better.
00:44:14 Speaker_05
Oh, my God.
00:44:14 Speaker_08
People who do accents kind of scare me.
00:44:16 Speaker_05
Really?
00:44:17 Speaker_06
A little bit. It's like, is there something mad in it? It's just weird, hypervigilant weirdness where people notice things that other people aren't really noticing. What did you have for breakfast?
00:44:26 Speaker_08
I had a salad. A salad for breakfast? For lunch, I didn't have breakfast.
00:44:30 Speaker_04
This is like the happiest I've seen Monica in like two years. I'm sorry, I feel like this is a little bit of an insult. Now it's getting aggressive. No!
00:44:36 Speaker_05
You're like, wow, Monica, normally you're such a bum girl.
00:44:38 Speaker_04
Yeah, you're such a bitch.
00:44:40 Speaker_05
You're such a bitchy bummer.
00:44:41 Speaker_04
She's a dream co-worker, but every time I look over at you today, you're like ear to ear smiling. It's just really wonderful.
00:44:47 Speaker_06
Am I in my pink? I am very into your pink sweatshirt. Thank you. Besides, shout out. Shout out. They're the greatest company ever. By the way, I'm not kidding. I wear their jeans only. Yeah, I noticed them. Monica, relax. Oh, I love this. I noticed them.
00:45:01 Speaker_06
Anyway, back to me. So I, just kidding. No, but you got a Kathleen Turner movie. I played her daughter. I thought that was going to be a thing. And when I look back, I'm like, it was a movie of the week. Like, what did you think was going to happen?
00:45:12 Speaker_06
You did that. It was a big deal for me. And then I did a pilot called American Gothic that Sean Cassidy created. I turned 21, I think, once we went to series. We did a pilot. We did get picked up and I thought, well, this is it. CBS.
00:45:22 Speaker_06
Start mansion shopping.
00:45:23 Speaker_05
Start mansion shopping.
00:45:24 Speaker_06
Lived in Wilmington, North Carolina. Thought it was a thing. Canceled. Moved to LA. Didn't know how to drive. Got my driver's license here. So I do this pilot with Robert Bastarelli called Cracker. Mariska Hargitay was on it. Ooh.
00:45:36 Speaker_06
I'm pretty confident it was Josh Hartnett's first job. Ooh. And I was his first onscreen kiss. Such a good claim to fame.
00:45:44 Speaker_00
He was so handsome.
00:45:45 Speaker_06
He's still so handsome. I just saw him recently on the set of The Bearer, and it was really sweet to see him. And I remember him saying something to my boyfriend at the time, being like, she's a good kisser.
00:45:54 Speaker_06
And he was like, I'll fucking rip your throat out.
00:45:57 Speaker_05
But he might be like, I never said that, which is totally fair, but that was my memory of it. Again, like I said, it's a big liar.
00:46:02 Speaker_04
We all want to kiss you now. He couldn't even help but brag about it to your boyfriend. Doesn't it sound intriguing?
00:46:07 Speaker_06
I'm very intrigued. I'm not gonna lie, it's pretty good.
00:46:10 Speaker_04
I'm pretty good at kissing.
00:46:11 Speaker_06
I'm pretty good at kissing, and not even on cocaine. It's just pretty good at kissing, period.
00:46:14 Speaker_04
You're probably worse on cocaine. Probably worse on cocaine. But think you're great at it.
00:46:16 Speaker_06
Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I'm so amazing at this.
00:46:18 Speaker_04
You're numb lips.
00:46:19 Speaker_06
Yeah, exactly. And then I did this pilot and I thought it was gonna be a thing. I did a couple episodes, not a thing. Don't I do a Jack Lemmon TV movie also?
00:46:28 Speaker_04
The 99 to Jack and Jill. That was your first like stability.
00:46:31 Speaker_06
Stability. I get a season and a half or two seasons.
00:46:33 Speaker_04
Two seasons. Yeah. So that was a five year before you get some real stability. Correct. And again, if I'm you, I'm like, well, cool. I'll probably go from this to the other show that runs for two years or three years. And then we have another
00:46:47 Speaker_04
Again, you work. 2002, you do Leap of Faith with Ken Marino. We love Ken Marino.
00:46:50 Speaker_06
Love Ken Marino with a passion.
00:46:51 Speaker_04
But again, six episodes. You're like stuck in this world of you do a pilot, doesn't go, you get six episodes. 2004, Nip Tuck. This is the first time I see you act, I'm sure.
00:47:00 Speaker_06
Oh, so this is where you first met Ryan. First time with Ryan, yep.
00:47:02 Speaker_04
And so knowing that you did Nip Tuck so early in 2004, was that the love connection or did that come later? No. You were just on the show. Didn't meet Ryan.
00:47:10 Speaker_06
I did meet Ryan, I actually knew Ryan because of Jill Kleberg, who was a wonderful actress who Ryan obviously loved very much.
00:47:17 Speaker_06
And her best friend was a writer named Jennifer Salt, who was Waldo Salt's daughter, who wrote Midnight Cowboy, Oscar-winning screenwriter.
00:47:25 Speaker_06
And she was a writer on Nip-Tuck, and I was friends with them, and I was at their house with my girlfriend at the time, Cherry Jones. And we were at Jen Salt's house, and Ryan came over, and he was like, I want you guys to be on the show.
00:47:36 Speaker_06
And Cherry was like, no, and I said yes. And then I did the show. So it was all just people that we knew. So I did have a little bit of an experience with Ryan, but that's not where it happened.
00:47:44 Speaker_04
Right. It's not like he saw that and was like, well, I must work with this person. No. Okay. So then from 2004, we go to the Glass Menagerie. You go on Broadway. That's cool. You're loving that. And then the aforementioned Studio 60.
00:47:59 Speaker_04
We get a year out of that.
00:48:01 Speaker_06
And that was the one everyone thought was going to happen.
00:48:03 Speaker_04
And you're like, now, finally.
00:48:04 Speaker_06
Now, here it is. I've landed.
00:48:06 Speaker_04
And fuck, now we're, because I'm the same age as you, now we're 31. When that gets canceled and you have another little stretch, I mean, really between 2007, 2011, I'm imagining it's pretty scary.
00:48:19 Speaker_06
I think I got the spirit, that movie that was also supposed to be a thing, this comic book movie, Sam Jackson, Scarlett Johansson, Ava Mendes, Frank Miller direct, like we thought it was going to be a thing.
00:48:29 Speaker_06
It was essentially like a comic book movie and I was the girl.
00:48:32 Speaker_04
Yeah. What's your personal story at this point?
00:48:35 Speaker_06
This is one of those things where when you're inside it, it certainly feels like things are happening.
00:48:41 Speaker_06
There's enough stuff going on where it feels like there's interest and the world feels, in retrospect, like it was much smaller in terms of the group of actresses that were auditioning for things. Now it just feels so saturated.
00:48:53 Speaker_06
I don't know how anybody makes their way. But it's a funny, weird thing. And I'm not a particularly spiritual person. I'm not a religious person. And some of this is a little bit about my sister, Elizabeth, who is a little bit psychic.
00:49:03 Speaker_06
And she was like, this isn't going to happen for you until you're I didn't put like a ton of stock in it until when I was like 38 or 39 and things started to really change. And I was like, was this bitch right about this?
00:49:14 Speaker_06
But it was also inside of me, I had some weird, and for no reason, because I was not being told by the universe in any concrete way, and you were going to be fine, but I think I had some weird belief.
00:49:28 Speaker_04
Can I argue something right now?
00:49:29 Speaker_06
Sure, yes.
00:49:30 Speaker_04
It's gonna be impossible for you to respond to. But I'm wondering if that difference is that you actually knew you were really good because I was in those spots and I have to tell you my own confidence wavered in those spots.
00:49:43 Speaker_04
I'm wondering if it came from the fact that you knew in your heart you were fucking great at this.
00:49:47 Speaker_06
I think it's. possible that you're not wrong in one way that I want to make very clear. I think I believed I could be. I don't think I thought I was because I had pockets and moments of things where certain people were responding to my work.
00:50:02 Speaker_06
I was getting feedback from like Steven Spielberg. He wanted me to do this pilot and there was like this pilot war between these two creators and like, was I going to do this Spielberg one?
00:50:10 Speaker_06
And then of course, neither one of them went and nothing happened with it. But I remember getting some kind of information
00:50:16 Speaker_06
Or even when I work with Jack Lemmon, him saying to me, don't ever forget how good you are, you know, and I was really young and I didn't know what I was doing.
00:50:23 Speaker_06
That was all maybe just instinct and had nothing to do with a craft or anything that I knew anything about. So I think I was getting just enough feedback from people that seemed to really know that I thought maybe I was capable of something.
00:50:36 Speaker_06
And I was always an impressionist. I was always a person who would do these wild characters that people at stupid parties would be like, Sarah, do your thing.
00:50:43 Speaker_06
And so I felt a little bit like there was some thing I had to offer that just hadn't been tapped yet that I wasn't even aware of, but I thought could be in there. And I don't know entirely why. It certainly wasn't in the work I was doing.
00:50:55 Speaker_06
I don't look at anything I did back then and go, That was really special.
00:50:58 Speaker_06
But I did get The Glass Menagerie, even though the production was not well received, opposite Jessica Lange, when all of these girls my age, some of whom have Oscars now, were auditioning for this. And for some reason, they picked me.
00:51:11 Speaker_06
And I don't know why. And I don't even think I was particularly good in that play. So there was something in the back of my brain that was like, just wait. And I don't know why. And also, there's nothing else that I ever wanted to do.
00:51:21 Speaker_04
What was happening financially? Were you frugal? Were you able to weather these pockets? No.
00:51:25 Speaker_06
I never learned how to deal with money ever. I remember telling a business manager once, please let me know when I get down to this amount. And they never did. And then I had $10,000 to my name and I had no job.
00:51:36 Speaker_06
And then that was right when I got Game Change, 12 Years a Slave, and the first season of American Horror Story.
00:51:42 Speaker_08
You had $10,000 in 2012? I had $10,000. That's horrifying.
00:51:47 Speaker_06
Yeah, it was really scary when I think about it now. Do you know an actress named Carla Gallo? She's in all these Judd Apatow movies, and she's currently on Platonic with Seth Rogen and Will Sperling. We have friends that are friends with her.
00:51:55 Speaker_06
Yeah, she's my friend since I'm 11 years old. We went to high school together, although we weren't in the same friend group, which is why I didn't mention her before, and so she can't be offended about that.
00:52:03 Speaker_06
Carla Gallo is not smoking pot in the meadow, let's put it that way. But she helped me write my first check.
00:52:07 Speaker_04
When you say the meadow, are you talking about Sheep's Meadow?
00:52:09 Speaker_06
Sheep's Meadow. Yeah, it was just there. What a place. I smoked a lot of pot there.
00:52:12 Speaker_04
That's a great place to smoke pot. It really is. Very wide open.
00:52:15 Speaker_06
Let it rip. Carla Gallo taught me how to write my first check because I was in Sister's Rosenzweig. I was making money. I was still living at home, but I didn't know how to write a check.
00:52:23 Speaker_06
I remember paying for my first headshots and writing it out of my checking account and Carla was with me and she had to tell me where the zeros went. I just didn't know where she did a show called Carnival on HBO back then and bought her first house.
00:52:34 Speaker_06
I had done, at that point, so many shows that went and didn't go, but I could have bought it and it never occurred to me. I bought my first house in 2016. Money was not something I knew what to do with or how to deal with it.
00:52:44 Speaker_06
I'm still not great with it. We didn't really have a lot of it. It wasn't part of the curriculum in the house.
00:52:48 Speaker_02
Yeah.
00:52:48 Speaker_04
That feels healthy though. Maybe. My wife says, wait, you can end up fucked. When I first met her, I was like, hold on a second. How much money you got in the bank? Right. But there's something very, very healthy about it. The version I have is unhealthy.
00:52:57 Speaker_06
It's a balance. I think it's maybe middle ground. Well, because I think if I had known more,
00:53:01 Speaker_06
I wouldn't have been waiting for my business manager to say when I got to this certain number, if I were opening the things that were coming to my house with the reports on what I had, I would have known.
00:53:08 Speaker_06
Now, however, when I found out I had that much in the bank, I was able to live off, I found a way, but I had to go to my landlord, who was really, really sweet and someone I'm still friends with to this day and say, can I pay a little less?
00:53:18 Speaker_06
Or between jobs. Or between jobs, you know, and she was so wonderful with me and I got very lucky that way, because that is not a common response when someone says I can't make the rent. But it was right then when things changed.
00:53:27 Speaker_08
But now you have a house on Architectural Digest.
00:53:30 Speaker_06
Yes. That's true.
00:53:31 Speaker_08
I saw it and I was just talking to Catherine about this. I think maybe we have Nikki Kehoe. We share a designer. Is that your person too?
00:53:39 Speaker_06
Yeah. I love her. She's a genius. She's a genius. And their store here is the best store in town to go to. You can't go in without buying something.
00:53:45 Speaker_04
It's really a problem.
00:53:46 Speaker_06
You want to live there. I know. And I'm like, why didn't we do this with my living room? I want to just tear the whole thing down and start over.
00:53:51 Speaker_04
See, that's the problem, you guys. The second you've completed your thing, you have to unfollow her.
00:53:56 Speaker_08
No, I can't.
00:53:57 Speaker_04
The problem is just finding out there's new stuff. Yeah, there's new stuff. It looks better. I have it with cars. Every year, they put more horsepower in all these cars I like. Every year, I'm like, oh, they added more horsepower. I got to get this.
00:54:06 Speaker_04
This would be better if I never found out they added more horsepower.
00:54:09 Speaker_06
Well, it's the same thing with clothes and shoes and bags. I mean, besides.
00:54:12 Speaker_04
Call me. So once you get it, you just, you gotta unplug.
00:54:17 Speaker_08
You just keep buying more houses.
00:54:18 Speaker_04
So that you can get convinced that she peaked, she never evolved past this. She perfected it and then quit.
00:54:26 Speaker_02
Downhill from there.
00:54:27 Speaker_04
Okay, so the crazy ride starts in 2011. You do American Horror Story, you do three episodes in the first season, but then you come back for the second Horror Story, Asylum, and you play a totally different character. You get nominated for an Emmy.
00:54:39 Speaker_04
You also do 12 Years a Slave. You do American Horror Story, Coven, you play a witch, and then Game Changer.
00:54:45 Speaker_06
Nominated for Emmys for all of those.
00:54:47 Speaker_04
Wow. Bonkers. Self-congratulatory. No, no, no.
00:54:49 Speaker_08
It's also timely. They were last night. They were last night. Yeah, guys, I was there.
00:54:53 Speaker_04
That dates us. They were a while ago.
00:54:55 Speaker_06
She went. Oh yeah, they were a while ago.
00:54:57 Speaker_04
They were in the past. I just wanted to talk about one aspect of listening to you talk about all these different projects. I think the situation you're in was compounded because we just happened to interview her.
00:55:07 Speaker_04
But you A, have to play a terrible racist person, which is rough. Just going in there and delivering that dialogue. I got offered once to play a Nazi. We should see the characters that exist on planet Earth.
00:55:18 Speaker_04
But I got offered that thing while I was also on a TV show and I had a black son and I spent every day with him. And I was like, the notion of him seeing me in this movie talking like that, that ended up for me being the thing.
00:55:29 Speaker_04
But anyways, it would be hard. And then doing it to Lupita, who we just interviewed, I feel like would be a uniquely terrible feeling when you're doing it.
00:55:37 Speaker_06
It was horrible. It was a very hard day. The fact that Lupita and I had become sweet friends, because we didn't know any other way to do it, we just talked about it. We were like, so today we're going to have to do the bit where I scratch your face.
00:55:50 Speaker_06
Today we have to do the bit where I throw the crystal decanter at your face. And we would talk about it. It wasn't easy. The only thing, and it goes back to the Linda Tripp thing, which was, I have to find a way.
00:56:01 Speaker_06
I do have a friend, a good friend, a very successful friend, who said no to even auditioning for 12 Years a Slave because she was like, I don't want to play that person. I really understand that.
00:56:09 Speaker_06
But for me as an actor, also for the good of the story, you cannot tell that story completely without the hideous behavior of the white people in our country at that time.
00:56:21 Speaker_04
Well, to make her story that much more important.
00:56:23 Speaker_06
You have to really show the brutality of it and the callous, unflinching behavior of the woman I was playing. She was also a product. This is not an excuse at all, but a product of her time.
00:56:33 Speaker_06
But what it really meant was this was a person who was not interested in doing any deep dive or any questioning about what she was being taught. And there are some people in life who would go, wait a minute.
00:56:42 Speaker_06
Steve McQueen, who was our director, was just like, it is vitally important to me that you do not judge her. He never was going to do a take of me by the sink, wiping away a tear, going, I can't believe I just did that. He was not going to do that.
00:56:51 Speaker_06
So he's like, don't try to ingratiate yourself to the audience. And it was a wonderful early lesson for me to think about that, even with the play I just did, playing a person who's really rough to be around.
00:57:02 Speaker_06
You can't apologize for these people who know not what they do. It's not a play about or a movie about a person who discovers the hideousness of their behavior. That's not their story.
00:57:11 Speaker_06
In order to let the storytelling really land where it should land, you have a responsibility.
00:57:16 Speaker_04
OK, now I don't fantasize about playing, say, a white nationalist, but I do fantasize about playing someone like, let's say, Nicholson in As Good As It Gets. Grumpy.
00:57:28 Speaker_04
and telling people to just shut up and fuck off and get out of here, because I do want to do that really bad. I would love to walk through life one day and say, fuck you, get away if you're stupid, fuck off.
00:57:38 Speaker_04
That voice is in my head, and I would enjoy playing someone who got to behave that way.
00:57:43 Speaker_05
Yeah, I gotta tell you, it's really fun.
00:57:46 Speaker_06
I mean, I just did that in the play. Just very little patience for anyone. And people are always like, do you hear yourself? And she's like, no, I don't care. It was a really kind of liberating thing to do.
00:57:55 Speaker_04
And maybe a little glance into the future of when you're 70 and you don't give a shit.
00:58:00 Speaker_06
Oh, God. I mean, I hope not. Because it's also kind of a miserable way to live. Exactly.
00:58:04 Speaker_08
Maybe that's fun to tap into, but I don't think you'd like, especially as people who want approval, that's not how you get approval. So I think that would only last for so long.
00:58:12 Speaker_05
I guess you're right. Okay. I'll be nice. Feel free to try it.
00:58:16 Speaker_02
I'll keep being nice.
00:58:20 Speaker_10
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
00:58:33 Speaker_04
Okay, for me, American Horror Story feels like the perfect show to be in forever, because you get to do something new every single time. It's like the security of a long running show, but also no boredom or stagnation. Is that the case?
00:58:44 Speaker_06
That's exactly right.
00:58:45 Speaker_04
Okay, so at this point, I would like you to tell me, when does this love affair start? Do you know the moment it happens? Is it something that grows slowly? When do you become his muse? Or what would we call you in Ryan Murphy's
00:58:58 Speaker_06
I don't know what he would call it, but we certainly have had an incredible collaborative, creative experience together. I think I'm a good interpreter of his point of view. To me, it always sort of lives in the world of extremes.
00:59:14 Speaker_06
You know, my mother called me Sarah Bernhardt for a reason as a tiny child, which on one level is a little, not to say it's abusive, but, but it's like, it did kind of tell me from a very early age that my feelings were a little too big.
00:59:27 Speaker_06
You have too much. It's too much. It's too dramatic. It can't really be that histrionic. I mean, child services was called on my mother because she wouldn't let me wear a necklace to a friend's bat mitzvah.
00:59:36 Speaker_06
And I was screaming, why are you doing this to me? Why are you doing this to me? And you reported her. I did not report her. The neighbors reported her.
00:59:42 Speaker_04
No way.
00:59:42 Speaker_06
Yeah. Because they were like, something's happening. I was screaming, why? Why are you doing this to me? Why are you doing this to me? Pounding my, you know, my mom just being like, Jesus, it's a necklace.
00:59:51 Speaker_06
And I was like, well, but everyone at the party has something on that is fancy and I don't have anything. And instead of saying that, cause I didn't know that that was actually the crux.
00:59:59 Speaker_04
I feel less than you would have destroyed her.
01:00:01 Speaker_06
I am not enough. Give me your amethyst crystal necklace that makes me feel cool and fancy.
01:00:06 Speaker_06
And so I do recognize that I have a flair for the dramatic and that what I would really say if I were a parent to myself is you're very in touch with what you feel and you have a real connection to those things.
01:00:18 Speaker_06
They feel very, very real to you and they're really right there. How wonderful that you can identify them and express them, which is not what my mother was doing. She was like Sarah Bernhardt. She's in her twenties.
01:00:27 Speaker_04
She's in her twenties.
01:00:27 Speaker_06
We forgive her. We forgive her. She's working at it. Sorry. She's listening. Hi. So hi, mom. So I think the truth is for the Ryan thing, it actually happened very organically.
01:00:36 Speaker_06
It was actually a Jessica Lange thing, which is that I went to a benefit for Project Angel Food with Jessica, who was in town to do the first season of American Horror Story.
01:00:42 Speaker_06
I was supposed to go do a play with Kevin Kline that fell apart at the last minute. So I ended up staying. I went with her to this event.
01:00:48 Speaker_06
Ryan was there and she's just sort of threw her arm around me and said, can't you find something for her to do on the show? Because it would be fun if we could do stuff together. Cause we became friends after Glass Menagerie in 2005.
01:00:58 Speaker_06
And so he went, hmm, you know, I actually maybe have something. And it was to play this psychic on the first season of the show. And I played her friend who was a psychic. I did three episodes.
01:01:07 Speaker_06
And for whatever reason, this is the part that is always going to be a mystery to me because I've asked him and he's like, I don't know that I have an answer for you, which is, he then threw me the lead essentially in the second season.
01:01:17 Speaker_06
For me, the greatest experience of American Horror Story ever was that season in particular. It was just so special to me, but I don't know why he gave me this. It just was one of those things again, where I just go, I don't know.
01:01:28 Speaker_06
And he's like, I don't actually know.
01:01:30 Speaker_04
I am very intimidated by him because he is not overly expressive. That's true. He's not effusive. And for an approval junkie... Yeah, I understand. I'm like, wake your face up. I'm giving you... A lot of good shit. So for me, he's kind of kryptonite.
01:01:46 Speaker_04
And I feel like you and I are kind of similar.
01:01:48 Speaker_06
So how do you... He and I were 10 years apart. It's a little bit different.
01:01:51 Speaker_04
But you're a woman, so you're probably four years apart.
01:01:54 Speaker_06
Four years apart, exactly. And I think we are very alike in a funny way. We're kind of exacting and brimming with ideas and very loyal. And I understand exactly what you're saying.
01:02:04 Speaker_06
And there are a lot of people I know who ask me this question who say, I don't understand how this relationship has lasted as long as it's lasted, because he seems so scary.
01:02:12 Speaker_06
And you seem like one of us who's just over here going, like me, like me, like me. We had enough time together socially where we got on like a house of fire. I just made him laugh.
01:02:23 Speaker_06
You know, it's one of those weird things like, why do you fall in love with the person you fall in love with?
01:02:27 Speaker_06
I understand from the outside that he looks a particular way to people, but when I'm one-on-one with Ryan, and traditionally when it's one-on-one, he is the most supportive, generous.
01:02:37 Speaker_06
The way he talked about waiting to see if I was going to win that Tony when he called me to say, I almost had a fucking heart attack waiting because they waited for the last 20 minutes of the show. He was like, I was flipping out.
01:02:48 Speaker_06
And he said they just like stood right out of his chair when they called my name. And he just wants things for me.
01:02:53 Speaker_04
Is it possible that you're living out loud in a way that he would love to do, but for whatever reason, that's not how he does it?
01:03:00 Speaker_06
I think it might have more to do with the fact that he knows deep down that he is the reason why I have the very messy career that I have. That he is responsible for basically giving me my artistic life.
01:03:15 Speaker_06
And I wonder if knowing that, that you feel a responsibility and also a pride and also a sense of having a really good picker, I bet on something that delivered.
01:03:23 Speaker_04
Yeah, big time.
01:03:24 Speaker_06
A lot of people wanted to play Marsha Clark, and for whatever reason, he decided it should be me. And it changed my life.
01:03:29 Speaker_06
I think there's just some part of him that saw something in me, and I think I've said this publicly, that was sort of to the point of what we were talking about earlier, of deep down, I think I knew I was capable of something, I didn't know what, and I think he knew what I was capable of.
01:03:44 Speaker_06
By virtue of him saying, you, get on the field. I had to get out in the field and take the ball and go running. And I did. And he said, I knew it. And now we're going to do this again and again and again and again.
01:03:55 Speaker_04
Has there been one where he called and wanted you to do it and you didn't want to do it?
01:03:58 Speaker_06
Not once.
01:03:59 Speaker_08
Also, some people are soulmates. I believe that.
01:04:03 Speaker_06
I think it's true because there's no question. People always say this to me about him and it's true. And I sometimes look at him, I'm like, why aren't you smiling? You know, and he's like, this is me smiling. I'm like, right, I know.
01:04:14 Speaker_08
And you get to say that to him and other people don't necessarily get to say that.
01:04:17 Speaker_06
But I think the truth is I find him to be a very warm, supportive, generous, wonderful friend who has given me a real embarrassment of riches in my professional life and personally too.
01:04:28 Speaker_06
If I could never work with him again, that would be okay, but I wouldn't not want him in my life as a friend. That is a important thing I learned recently about our relationship.
01:04:36 Speaker_04
Yeah, I didn't even count them up, but it's gotta be between, you've done nine of the 10 seasons of Horror Story, and then you've done three Crime Stories. You did Impeachment, you did OJ, only two Crime Stories, and you're about to do a third thing.
01:04:49 Speaker_04
So we're in the teens.
01:04:50 Speaker_06
I did Nip Tuck for him, I did Pilot for him that didn't go, I did Feud. You're in like the 15 plus. Yeah, we've done a lot of stuff together.
01:04:57 Speaker_04
You're so fine on your own. You two created all this great stuff together. But do you think, God, I hope he works forever because I want to work forever in his stuff?
01:05:05 Speaker_06
I do think that because I understand what he's going for, which I think is a lot of the work. And I just think I'm the right actress for it because I got a lot of big feelings. They are often put to good use in his stuff.
01:05:16 Speaker_04
Do you guys both have outcast syndrome?
01:05:18 Speaker_06
Oh, interesting.
01:05:19 Speaker_04
You were the poor girl at the rich school. He was a gay dude in straight America.
01:05:24 Speaker_06
I mean, you'd have to ask him that. I will, I'll earmark it. But I definitely feel sort of like outside.
01:05:30 Speaker_04
It's a good feeling to preserve, even if it's a lie at this point.
01:05:32 Speaker_06
That's what we were talking about before you got here. Way before you got here.
01:05:37 Speaker_04
Okay, the only other thing I want to talk about before we talk about Hold Your Breath. Well, I loved OJ, by the way. It was so good. You are so unbelievably good in that.
01:05:47 Speaker_09
Thank you.
01:05:47 Speaker_04
It really added the dimensions to her that she deserved. I even felt as a young 20-something boy, a lot of this stuff that was really crazy misogynistic, it blew over my head.
01:05:58 Speaker_04
When I was watching Late Night and they were calling Monica Lewinsky a fat slut, literally using those words on TV, it didn't bump for me, embarrassingly. I watch it now and I'm like, oh my God, I was watching all that stuff.
01:06:08 Speaker_04
None of it sounded crazy to me, but maybe because of my single mother or something, that one felt wrong while it was happening. The scrutiny on her hair and the things that were happening to her felt very gendered and not fair.
01:06:20 Speaker_04
And so I felt like you gave her her day. Have you ever met her?
01:06:24 Speaker_06
Oh, yeah. Oh, you have.
01:06:26 Speaker_08
You were closely with her?
01:06:27 Speaker_06
Nobody wanted me to talk to her before we started, even though I was desperate to. So I didn't do that. But then after I finished the Marsha, Marsha, Marsha episode, which was the episode that was about Marsha, he said, you've done it now.
01:06:37 Speaker_06
You can talk to her if you want. And so I sent her an email and we had dinner that was like a seven hour dinner. It was very, very special. You know, I brought her with me to the Emmys and I know that for her, it was very scary at first.
01:06:49 Speaker_06
She had never been properly treated in the press. She had an enormous trauma and I think it was really a very scary idea to imagine 20 years later seeing buses and billboards of that trial and that glove and the name OJ Simpson all over.
01:07:04 Speaker_06
And then there's something about documentaries versus these limited series things where somehow it feels more real to people that whatever people are putting forward in the limited series is fact.
01:07:12 Speaker_06
And so like somehow putting it forward, she was like, I don't know what it's going to be out there about me. You're telling me that it's not going to be anti me, but I don't know that I believe that.
01:07:20 Speaker_06
I remember just feeling such an enormous responsibility.
01:07:23 Speaker_04
And a relief that she was happy to have dinner with you. Yeah, I was very happy to have dinner with me. Well, that was so great. But the thing I wanted to say that I just absolutely loved, it might be my favorite
01:07:33 Speaker_04
But that's scary to say because he's done so much great stuff. But Ratched. Oh my God. Really? I loved Ratched. Nurse Ratched. Wow. Does that surprise you? It does. I have no access to any data, but I was shocked I wasn't hearing more people talk about that.
01:07:50 Speaker_06
It was, as far as I understand, because I was an EP on that, so I got to be on all these calls with Netflix. I was like, this is how this happens? It was absolutely successful. We were picked up for a second season. That was happening.
01:08:01 Speaker_06
It was pandemic time. And by the time it came around again to think about doing it, Ryan was so busy and all the actors had scattered. And it just felt like, what do we do here? Or do we let this sort of stand on its own?
01:08:12 Speaker_04
I'm not happy with what you guys decided at all.
01:08:14 Speaker_06
You know, it's funny, when I was doing the play, so many people, when they were waiting outside to say hi to me, were talking about, when is Roger coming back?
01:08:20 Speaker_04
Oh, it was so interesting.
01:08:21 Speaker_06
I loved doing it.
01:08:22 Speaker_04
I feel like visually it was one of the best.
01:08:23 Speaker_06
Oh, I mean, this is the thing Ryan does with these Douglas Sirk paint, the costumes, I loved doing it.
01:08:27 Speaker_04
And my boyfriend's D'Onofrio.
01:08:29 Speaker_06
I love him.
01:08:30 Speaker_04
God, I'm pissed now. I'm leaving today with a resentment because there could have been a season two.
01:08:35 Speaker_06
There could have been. There was a kind of cool idea that he had, that the show would run up until she entered the cuckoo's nest.
01:08:42 Speaker_04
Right. You know? Yeah, yeah.
01:08:44 Speaker_06
It was such a neat idea to do her. It was such a very smart idea.
01:08:47 Speaker_04
Well, I'm really mad about that.
01:08:48 Speaker_06
I'm very sorry, Dad. Okay. Sorry I can't fix that for you.
01:08:51 Speaker_04
Impeachment, Linda Tripp, we talked about it. I loved it. Nominated again. So many Emmys, so little time. And then of course, last year you do appropriate and you won a Tony, an Anthony as I call them.
01:09:04 Speaker_06
I have an Anthony.
01:09:05 Speaker_04
Of these awards you've won, is that the one probably? Yeah. Those are more valuable, right?
01:09:09 Speaker_06
I don't know if they're more valuable to everyone.
01:09:11 Speaker_04
They must give out less of them.
01:09:12 Speaker_06
They give out fewer of them is the correct way to say that.
01:09:14 Speaker_08
This is the second time that's come up on this podcast.
01:09:16 Speaker_06
I'm sorry, I've done that twice.
01:09:17 Speaker_04
I didn't go to college and I just have a real... But neither of us can spell Parmesan.
01:09:20 Speaker_06
I can't spell Parmesan. I can't spell fucking anything. That is the truth.
01:09:23 Speaker_04
Same.
01:09:24 Speaker_06
I can't conjugate a verb. I don't know what a preposition is. I am adult. But I can tell you one thing. I know when it's fewer and less.
01:09:31 Speaker_04
Someone beat that one to you. Someone did. Because there's some scars here.
01:09:33 Speaker_06
No, because I understand it. You have fewer cars on the road. You don't have less cars. So it's about when it's numbers or you've eaten fewer steaks. You haven't eaten less steaks. Think about how that sounds.
01:09:44 Speaker_04
I love that your explanation of the difference is just saying the words out loud so you can see how different they are. You would not be the best teacher. It's so true. As charismatic as you are. It's true, it's so true.
01:09:53 Speaker_04
But if you just stand in front of them and see, see, see how dumb this sounds. Does this make sense? Fewer steaks, yeah. Yes. Less steaks. Less steaks sounds dummy.
01:10:00 Speaker_08
It's not funny.
01:10:02 Speaker_04
There's a reason.
01:10:02 Speaker_08
I'm gonna find a way to poke a hole in this.
01:10:04 Speaker_06
You won't be able to. It's not enough.
01:10:06 Speaker_04
It's not gonna stand up to rigorous scrutiny.
01:10:07 Speaker_06
It's not gonna stand up. Fewer cars in the parking lot.
01:10:10 Speaker_04
There could be less cars.
01:10:11 Speaker_06
I'm less afraid. You're not fewer afraid.
01:10:13 Speaker_04
Now you're on to something. Chase that down a little further.
01:10:16 Speaker_06
That's on a number. Yeah, you're less handsome. You're not fewer handsome. It's a quantity.
01:10:21 Speaker_04
I still think you can say they hand out less awards at the Tonys. I'm sorry.
01:10:25 Speaker_06
I mean, you can. You did.
01:10:28 Speaker_04
And you did.
01:10:28 Speaker_06
But it's better to say fewer.
01:10:30 Speaker_04
But people's ears hurt.
01:10:31 Speaker_06
To me, the Tony matters more. There are fewer plays. There are fewer opportunities to win them. It makes it harder, therefore, to get. Fewer cars in the parking lot. Fewer cars in the parking lot. That's the Tonys.
01:10:41 Speaker_04
Fewer steaks served at the show.
01:10:42 Speaker_06
Fewer steaks served at the Sardis. We came all the way around.
01:10:45 Speaker_04
Came all the way back around, guys. Look what you did.
01:10:48 Speaker_06
We did it. Also, I was an actress in New York wanting to be on Broadway.
01:10:51 Speaker_04
You have all the letters of an EGAP with the Oscar.
01:10:54 Speaker_06
I don't have a Grammy. Oh, you don't have a Grammy. Let's get you one of those. So you have two out of four. Can we get one for this episode? We're trying.
01:11:00 Speaker_04
I'm angling for a Peabody, which I don't understand what it is, but I feel like we're capable of getting it.
01:11:05 Speaker_06
We're definitely not gonna- Does that make sense? Yeah, I do. Just about as much sense as my fewer and less sense.
01:11:09 Speaker_04
I could imagine never having even set my sights on an Oscar. But by God, if I got the E and the G and the T, my OCD would be like, this is incomplete. Now we must get this fucking Oscar.
01:11:21 Speaker_08
You're getting an Oscar. Oh, I don't know about that.
01:11:24 Speaker_04
Rob, present her her Oscar.
01:11:27 Speaker_08
That I feel fairly. I'm like your sister. I have psychic abilities. You do?
01:11:32 Speaker_04
But you're a shit singer, you told us, so the Grammy might be further up.
01:11:35 Speaker_08
So that one's going to be trickier, but you can do like an audiobook or something.
01:11:38 Speaker_06
Right, but then I feel like it feels like a grab.
01:11:39 Speaker_08
Doesn't matter.
01:11:40 Speaker_06
I take 20 stabs at an audiobook just to try to get it.
01:11:42 Speaker_04
Just to get it. Yeah. Also, you're like, oh, how embarrassing my EGOT was calculated. You suck this dick. Yeah. That would be my response.
01:11:49 Speaker_07
It doesn't matter. Take it how you can get it.
01:11:51 Speaker_04
Guess what? So fucking what? Am I right or am I right?
01:11:53 Speaker_07
I fucking got it and you don't, okay, okay?
01:11:56 Speaker_04
Why don't you fucking go through a layup there?
01:11:58 Speaker_07
Why don't you fucking try to get a fucking EGOT any fucking way?
01:12:00 Speaker_04
They're so easy, go fucking get yourself one.
01:12:02 Speaker_07
You so fucking dry you fucking think you can make it happen any old way?
01:12:04 Speaker_04
You can't. Why don't you jerk yourself off while you're at it? Yeah, why don't you fucking jerk yourself off while you're at it? And jerk your dad off too, you fucking smug.
01:12:09 Speaker_07
And jerk your dad off, you fucking, fucking dope.
01:12:11 Speaker_04
You fug.
01:12:11 Speaker_07
If we don't get a Grammy for what just happened here. Yeah, go call your mother for me, okay?
01:12:16 Speaker_04
She's going to have to pull the, ah, now you're going to finish it. You know where I was going.
01:12:20 Speaker_07
You know what I was going to do. Okay.
01:12:23 Speaker_04
Should we run a black box theater? You want to get suggestions?
01:12:27 Speaker_06
Yeah, I'd like to. Just throw something at us. Let's see what we can do.
01:12:30 Speaker_04
I'd like to get wild with you.
01:12:31 Speaker_06
Yeah, let's get wild.
01:12:32 Speaker_05
I'd like to push each other's boundaries.
01:12:34 Speaker_06
Yeah, we put a box in the middle of the room and just put a bunch of things and people have to pick it out and we have to do it, we have to act it out.
01:12:38 Speaker_05
Serpent, go.
01:12:38 Speaker_06
Go. Oh my God.
01:12:43 Speaker_08
I feel like I need to leave.
01:12:44 Speaker_07
What if I was a serpent who spoke?
01:12:47 Speaker_04
Well, I'll meet you in the garden. Eat this apple.
01:12:50 Speaker_09
Eat it, I say.
01:12:52 Speaker_04
Original scene. Okay, great. Next one is an aardvark.
01:12:56 Speaker_06
Oh my God.
01:12:57 Speaker_08
Oh my God, I have to say stop now. Move forward.
01:13:01 Speaker_06
Monica will be like, shut up.
01:13:03 Speaker_04
If you and I got a bag of Coke together. Oh my God. We'd have to be in a huge field, bigger than Sheep's Meadow.
01:13:11 Speaker_06
We'd probably be in a big, huge field or a padded room of some kind. Yeah.
01:13:14 Speaker_04
Lots of water too. So much water.
01:13:16 Speaker_06
We're going to have to hydrate.
01:13:19 Speaker_08
We've got plans. Okay.
01:13:20 Speaker_04
Tony, congratulations. Thank you. So to wrap up the Sardis.
01:13:24 Speaker_08
Yeah, we know where it's in. Fuck! Yeah, it's very obvious. Very obvious.
01:13:28 Speaker_04
She set that wall on fire on accident. She was delivering a baked Alaska. You wish. And set the whole wall. No, but you went with your mom and you got a caricature.
01:13:36 Speaker_06
They gave me a caricature. So exciting. And the greatest, I just said the greatest. It's a new word, fewer craters. So we walked into the room and the guy who owns Sardis now is the man who hired my mother.
01:13:49 Speaker_06
He only worked in the downstairs lounge at Sardi's, back when my mom worked there. And they saw each other. Of course, my mom remembered him right away. And he said to her, we did all right, didn't we? It was really sweet. My mom was very, very moved.
01:14:00 Speaker_06
And then I got to thank my mom in front of all these people. And I just like to state for the record, it looks so much better than what I look like. It looks like Jodie Comer and Winona Ryder had a baby. It does not look like me at all.
01:14:11 Speaker_05
Tom Wilkinson?
01:14:11 Speaker_06
No Wilkinson, no Millie BB. There's no Adele. There's no Lana Del Rey in it. There's no Elizabeth Shue. There's no Elizabeth Perkins in it. Simply, Jodie Comer would not wear. Two very attractive people, I don't look like them.
01:14:22 Speaker_04
I don't fare well in characters. I've had a couple done. Really? It's scary. The nose, which is already a lot, they can't resist. They go apeshit with the nose.
01:14:30 Speaker_06
Yeah, they just made my eyes really big and I don't think I have big eyes.
01:14:32 Speaker_04
That's very moving. That's lovely though.
01:14:33 Speaker_06
That was very moving.
01:14:34 Speaker_04
Okay, let's talk about Hold Your Breath. Hold it. First, let's set the stage and then I'm gonna ask you some historical questions that I ran out of time to answer myself. But set in the 30s in Oklahoma? Correct. And this is the Dust Bowl.
01:14:46 Speaker_06
Correct.
01:14:47 Speaker_04
What is the Dust Bowl?
01:14:48 Speaker_06
The Dust Bowl is a man-made event that I think we as a country were responsible for because of how much we were overturning the earth because of how many crops and how much wheat and corn and all the things that the country was making a big fat buck off of.
01:15:03 Speaker_04
And they didn't understand rotating crops yet. They didn't know how to replenish the soil.
01:15:07 Speaker_06
They ruined it. And then in a part of the country that the movie takes place, the Oklahoma panhandle, there's not a mountain or a hill in sight. There are no trees.
01:15:14 Speaker_06
There's nothing to stop the ground itself from lifting up into the air if there's any weather element of any kind. And then what happens when you can't farm? You can't grow anything. You can't irrigate. There's no rain.
01:15:25 Speaker_06
Is it all you do is have this loose ground everywhere. But you also means you can't feed your animals, which means you can't get milk from a cow. You can't feed your chickens. Everything collapses and then you have no food. You have no water.
01:15:36 Speaker_06
You have no way of getting any. In the Steinbeck novels, they're always escaping the Dust Bowl. Trying to move away from it. But in that part of the world, there's very few places you can go where you're not encountering the same thing.
01:15:46 Speaker_04
Also, pick your metaphor for this movie, like one of the numerous ones that are on the table is just this illusion of safety. We have this parcel of land. This thing did give us something once being able to let go or not throw good money after bad.
01:15:59 Speaker_04
That's all like there. Because on first glance, you're like, why didn't everyone get up immediately after the first storm and get the fuck out of there?
01:16:06 Speaker_06
Well, it's also pride of place. You live somewhere and you love your home and your community and you feel also that it's temporary.
01:16:12 Speaker_06
You don't have a crystal ball and know that this is going to go on for years and years and you expect the government to do something about it. It didn't.
01:16:19 Speaker_04
Yes. The sandstorms or dust storms are so bad. And of course you're reminded of what structures look like in 1930. It's not like everything was insulated.
01:16:29 Speaker_04
It's just fucking blowing through your house and everyone's living in this cake of dust at all times and the kids are getting sick. And it's making people sick, yeah. I'm a little bit of a neat freak.
01:16:38 Speaker_04
I started becoming like how oppressive that always growing layer of dust everywhere you look. It's very claustrophobic.
01:16:46 Speaker_06
Yes, and that's intentional.
01:16:47 Speaker_04
Okay, so that's one of the metaphors on the table. And then what is the one for you that was most salient?
01:16:53 Speaker_06
I don't know metaphor wise, but I know why I wanted to do it, which was because I was interested in where I meet this character, which is my own rigidity, my own fastidiousness.
01:17:08 Speaker_05
She's bringing it back from the beginning. She went all the way back.
01:17:12 Speaker_06
She remembers. Really good. I also have some form of OCD. I'm a real Virgo rising. I get very focused on having everything in its place. So I could really relate to a person for whom that kind of security sort of begs the question metaphor wise.
01:17:27 Speaker_06
It's that idea of like, we all have this free floating anxiety about what is this all about actually? life. What are we doing here? What are we doing with each other? Am I doing the right thing? So it's all this free-floating anxiety.
01:17:38 Speaker_06
And we think by getting up at this certain time and exercising and eating this thing, that we're creating some path towards whether it's health success or monetary success or creative success, purpose, whatever it is.
01:17:49 Speaker_06
Really, we're all just like running away from the great big dirt nap. Margaret is spending a lot of time, that's the character I play in the movie, trying to create something by way of normal life in a really abnormal reality.
01:18:02 Speaker_04
This tiny pocket of the world you theoretically can control, which is the inside of this little house sitting on all this acreage that is blowing around. Yeah. And so that metaphor for me is we do that as well.
01:18:14 Speaker_04
The world is scary and unpredictable and chaotic.
01:18:16 Speaker_06
You're creating some sense of safety. So I was interested in that. The real crux of it is this idea that Margaret has to do everything she can to protect her children. And I don't have children.
01:18:28 Speaker_06
Another thing we were talking about before you decided to show up. We had so many good things we were talking about before.
01:18:32 Speaker_04
I hope you were recording, Robert. I don't know. Did you get all that? No, he wasn't.
01:18:36 Speaker_08
Rob, you're always.
01:18:36 Speaker_04
He didn't want to waste the ones and zeros. He didn't want to be secretly recording.
01:18:40 Speaker_08
ABR. It's ABR when Dax is here before me.
01:18:43 Speaker_04
Oh, we're going to have a chat later. You're in trouble, Rob.
01:18:47 Speaker_06
Rigidity.
01:18:49 Speaker_04
The sparkle just went down to a glimmer.
01:18:51 Speaker_06
She's about where she normally lives. But I feel like having a reason to live that is outside of you, meaning the sort of self-centered you-ness that is living your own existence. You as Dax, you as Monica, me as me.
01:19:07 Speaker_06
You have children, you have a wife, you don't have anything.
01:19:10 Speaker_05
You have no one. You have no one. You are the dust bowl personified. Oh my God.
01:19:14 Speaker_04
Your womb is the dust bowl.
01:19:16 Speaker_05
Everything's just a fucking dried up... Plus you guys.
01:19:22 Speaker_08
I have huge eggs, that's been proven.
01:19:26 Speaker_06
I do have a partner and I have these three dogs, but the idea that a person would do anything and everything to protect someone other than themselves was really interesting to me.
01:19:38 Speaker_04
Yeah, let's say more about that, because I've done the thing.
01:19:42 Speaker_06
I have not done the thing.
01:19:43 Speaker_04
Do you have curiosity about it?
01:19:44 Speaker_06
I know why I haven't done the thing. I want to hear. I had a conversation with a very good friend of mine recently about this, and she sort of articulated it so perfectly. And I was like, that is why.
01:19:53 Speaker_06
I don't have the constitution to raise a child without destroying my life. And by that, I mean not like my ability to go to dinner.
01:20:03 Speaker_06
I am so hyper freaked out about everything going on in the world, about their health, about their well-being, about what the world would do to them, who would say what to them, what their experience in life would be. I am not equipped.
01:20:17 Speaker_06
to allow a being to be out in the world on their own path without me putting a million bumpers and balloons or whatever pillows, whatever could just keep them from hitting their head on the ground.
01:20:29 Speaker_06
My constitution would not allow me to do that without every waking moment
01:20:33 Speaker_04
Would we call that your anxiety?
01:20:34 Speaker_06
My anxiety would be so off the charts that my own life outside of my relationship with my children would be awash. And that is really true of me.
01:20:43 Speaker_06
And if I thought I could do it, my best friend Amanda Peet and I talk about this all the time about the good enough mother.
01:20:49 Speaker_06
Winnicott, who is a famous psychologist, talks about the good enough mother, that there is no such thing as the perfect amount of attention a child gets or perfect amount of freedom that they would get. You know, there is no perfect formula.
01:21:02 Speaker_04
Okay, I want to have a conversation with you, but it does run the risk of me, as it always does.
01:21:08 Speaker_06
Like you're convincing me to do something?
01:21:09 Speaker_04
Yeah, like that I'm trying to convince you or that I'm shaming you.
01:21:12 Speaker_06
I'm so old, and I do have some eggs frozen. You froze. I froze. You don't have to worry about me feeling pressured by you. Okay, great, because that's not at all... I'm more interested in hearing what your point of view is.
01:21:20 Speaker_04
I think there's a fun philosophical thing right here, which is... We're all aware of the many gifts that kids give you. Us parents won't shut the fuck up about it. So you already know them all, I would imagine.
01:21:30 Speaker_04
But what's really fucking incredible is that there is a version of you that you didn't know was there, that me as a pessimist would have guessed it wasn't for me. And that weirdly is the thing. So, Yes, you're that way. I accept that.
01:21:48 Speaker_04
But what's really wild is you have these kids and I go, wow, we've got to be a better version of ourselves because this thing deserves it. I'd say them and having to get sober.
01:21:59 Speaker_04
Those are the two things in my life that have changed me in ways that I would have otherwise said were not possible. And fuck whether you should or shouldn't have kids as the human experience in the grand experiment we're all undertaking.
01:22:12 Speaker_04
That's why I like it. Forget I'm not see people should or shouldn't have kids. None of that. It's just like the bizarre experiment of your time on planet Earth.
01:22:20 Speaker_04
The thing I've found kind of interesting is that I have risen to some things and overcome some things because I actually do care about them more than I care about myself, which was kind of unimaginable. So it's just like a counter thought.
01:22:31 Speaker_06
I think it's right and true. And because I have really close friends with multiple children, my sister has three kids. I know you're right. And yet. And this is a larger question of what my commitment to my anxiety is.
01:22:44 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:22:46 Speaker_06
My commitment to my identity around my anxiety, what my allegiance to it is. And like, am I afraid that if I give that up, who would I be? It's another control thing, too, in its way. It's a funny thing. I take enormous risks in my work. I really do.
01:23:00 Speaker_06
Oh, God. I really do. And I have failed and I will fail again and I've had successes and I hope I have success again. But I think I am much more of a real, like, hold on to the handrail person in my life.
01:23:12 Speaker_04
So that you can be wild. Maybe.
01:23:14 Speaker_06
And I don't know if I've ever connected the two in terms of going, I can only do that in my work if I do this in life. I don't know if it's that, but I do know that I am a person who sort of lives inside a bit of fear more than not.
01:23:27 Speaker_06
I don't feel like I take a lot of risks in my life. And this is a very big example of it, of like, I was unwilling to, and also just to be totally frank, and this is the place to do it, be as frank as possible with a lot of people listening.
01:23:38 Speaker_00
Sure, sounds like a good plan.
01:23:39 Speaker_06
I was and am very ambitious. My working life is very important to me. And not to be the hokiest fucking nerdiest actress, annoying person on the planet, but I am what I am, is that some of my roles have felt like my children.
01:23:53 Speaker_06
In a way, they've taken so much of my attention and my focus. It's not on me, it's about them, although one could argue that it is for my own personal whatever.
01:24:00 Speaker_08
Well, for parents too.
01:24:01 Speaker_06
For parents too, also, so we could argue that. It just for me has been, and again, to bring it back around, wanting to be approved of or celebrated or paid attention to or noticed.
01:24:12 Speaker_06
that some deeper part of me, even the parenting part of like, what am I doing to try to show myself or the world how good I can be at this?
01:24:20 Speaker_06
Even if it's the part of me that goes, look at the freedom I'm giving him or her, look at what I'm doing, look what I'm able to do. How much of that is actually about me needing a similar kind of pat on the back? It's a whole new round of that.
01:24:30 Speaker_06
It's a whole new round. It's just this funny thing where I think ultimately I did make the right decision for myself, but every once in a while I do look at my sister or my best friends with their kids and I'm like, hmm, what would that have been?
01:24:44 Speaker_06
But I look at the way I dog, I'm going to make that a verb, but the way I dog is really fucked up. I don't leave my dogs alone often. I have someone sit with them. I do the very thing I fear I would do with my children.
01:24:55 Speaker_06
It's like, here I am and I have them. And then I have Amanda saying to me like, but Bird, we call each other Bird, why don't you just understand that they're not going to hold it against you if you go out to dinner? And it's probably good for them.
01:25:05 Speaker_06
And I'm like, right, but they can't tell me. They can't tell me what they want or don't want. It gets me all fucked up because I'm like, what if they're like, And I'm like, you're fine.
01:25:13 Speaker_08
Sometimes the kids say, please don't go.
01:25:15 Speaker_06
Right. And you do have to go, but you can then say, and you recognize when you go, I'm going to be back. And they're like, I don't understand. And you're like, but I'm going to be back. And then you see the proof that I've come back.
01:25:25 Speaker_06
And you can tell there's a shared experience. Whereas a dog's like blank, blank. And one could argue, well, there, you know, they don't care.
01:25:31 Speaker_06
But then there's all these studies coming out where they're like, they cry when you come back and there's real tears and the MRIs and the dogs and the brains and what they can feel. And they can talk now with these buttons. Yes.
01:25:40 Speaker_06
And they can say, I want to go out and they know what it means. And it makes me fucking nuts, you guys. I'm really fucked up about the dogs. All I want are the dogs. And I want a thousand dogs.
01:25:48 Speaker_06
The reason I have three dogs, including one of them who's 27% inbred, which means his parents, the brother and sisters are definitely fucking. And he's really a dope, but he is consequently the most loving one of all of them.
01:25:58 Speaker_06
So there's an interesting argument for like, what's that about? Because I got two real smart dogs who are like, take it or leave it. Like every time I put one of them down, they shake off my hugs.
01:26:05 Speaker_06
And this other one's just like, give me, give me, give me. And I'm like, well, your parents may have fucked, but you are so cute.
01:26:10 Speaker_05
Your parents are also your aunt and your uncle, whatever that math is. But I'm the big winner. But I'm the big winner here. It's the dumb and happy debate. That's right.
01:26:17 Speaker_06
Because I'm like, you are not thinking about whether or not I'm coming back. You don't care. You're just happy to see me when I am here. You two are over here like, this bitch never coming back.
01:26:24 Speaker_04
She'll be out of here in five seconds. Don't believe these scratches. She says she's going to be back. She's not.
01:26:28 Speaker_06
She's going out on the town.
01:26:29 Speaker_08
I think sometimes, because I'm very close with his children, especially his youngest, who I was around when she was a baby, and sometimes I do get sad sometimes where I'm like, oh man, like I wish I had this feeling all the time. So you want them.
01:26:43 Speaker_08
I really don't know. But it's like you said, sometimes you're like, huh, I wonder. And I do have that with her. But then I also feel proud sometimes when we hang out and then I leave. And I'm like, so I just gave to this little person.
01:27:01 Speaker_08
I'm not going to get anything back in this life. It's not my kid.
01:27:05 Speaker_04
She'll visit you in your terminal. I hope so. She will. I can tell.
01:27:08 Speaker_08
It might be before we know it. What? You never know, because my heart could explode.
01:27:13 Speaker_05
Yeah, exactly. Right, right. My heart could explode.
01:27:17 Speaker_08
Your cholesterol is very high? Yeah, quite high. Are you on a statin? I'm supposed to be on one, but I'm delaying. But it's fine. I'm going to be fine.
01:27:24 Speaker_06
Does your mother have high cholesterol?
01:27:25 Speaker_08
My dad has high cholesterol.
01:27:27 Speaker_06
But how old is your dad?
01:27:28 Speaker_04
He's 70.
01:27:28 Speaker_06
I mean, you're good. I mean, come on.
01:27:31 Speaker_04
For your dad or for you? No, I'm all of us.
01:27:33 Speaker_06
How long has he been on the statins? Has he been on the statins? For like 35 years. Okay, great. So let's get on the statins and then we're good. I think we're good.
01:27:38 Speaker_05
Yeah, we're good.
01:27:39 Speaker_08
But all to say, there is something actually like, this is a beautiful relationship to practice just giving and then leaving.
01:27:48 Speaker_05
Yeah, the leaving part is really something I like doing. I really like doing it when I go to my sister's house, I'm like, bye-bye. It's a nice night of the Real Housewives.
01:27:56 Speaker_06
Enjoy bedtime. I get to go home and do whatever the fuck I want. There's a lot of benefits.
01:28:02 Speaker_08
But you know what I mean? I do.
01:28:03 Speaker_06
I'm just joking.
01:28:03 Speaker_08
There's something very hard about not being the caregiver, but loving like a caregiver. And so that's an interesting relationship. I'm glad I have.
01:28:12 Speaker_06
I understand that. I think that's the best of both worlds.
01:28:15 Speaker_08
Yeah.
01:28:16 Speaker_04
It sounds, I think, like I'm on a full time agenda to get everyone.
01:28:19 Speaker_06
You don't sound like that at all. It's just a different perspective and also a lived experience where things worked out in ways that you couldn't have imagined. And that's worth sharing.
01:28:29 Speaker_04
And you're right. A lot of people have been made worse by it.
01:28:31 Speaker_06
Yeah, there are some people, if they're honest about it, will say, I regret it.
01:28:35 Speaker_04
Yeah, absolutely. And it doesn't go great for everyone. We had help and we have money and there's a lot of things that make it easier for us.
01:28:40 Speaker_06
And there's one thing you kind of can't do once you got one. Give it back. I mean, you can't put it back in there.
01:28:45 Speaker_04
No.
01:28:45 Speaker_06
Yeah. So it's like really got to be dealt with. It's one of those decisions. And sometimes it's really complicated when you're like, how will you know what you feel? And you're like, but then what if then it's there? And you're like, I don't want it.
01:28:57 Speaker_06
Yeah, buyer's remorse.
01:28:58 Speaker_08
It's actually the only decision of that level that you really can't get out of ever. And it's really serious.
01:29:05 Speaker_06
Stakes are high. Stakes are quite high.
01:29:07 Speaker_04
Yeah. Okay, back to Hold Your Breath. So, I don't know how we talk about the plot of this in an artful way that doesn't give everything away.
01:29:16 Speaker_04
But in essence, we meet you, you have these two little girls and we understand your husband is away building a bridge. There are also some other folks in this little community and you really get a sense of how fucking lonely those people were.
01:29:27 Speaker_04
Everyone had their acreage.
01:29:28 Speaker_06
It wasn't like what happens in Los Angeles or a lot of cities or towns where houses are just like boom, boom, boom, right next to each other.
01:29:33 Speaker_04
Yeah. So it's like you're going through hell. You're not sure if other people died. You don't know how they're handling it. And then of course, the other people in the community are dealing with it, some of them in much worse ways.
01:29:42 Speaker_04
We're concerned about one woman's sanity. You're trying to maybe be helpful for a while, but then there's some other stuff going on. That's the part I don't really know how to introduce.
01:29:51 Speaker_06
You mean about a potential descent into madness?
01:29:54 Speaker_04
Yes.
01:29:54 Speaker_06
The movie is about the very, very small tightrope walk of sanity sometimes. That's probably the truth of it. I don't know about you, but sometimes I will see someone or experience someone doing something really fucking crazy.
01:30:10 Speaker_06
And I think there but the grace of God, because I think at any given moment, the tenuous hold one can have on one's own sanity and like what can just send it off, you know.
01:30:19 Speaker_06
So that was another thing that was very interesting about the movie to me was what does that look like when what you're doing to try to remain sane is actually super crazy.
01:30:28 Speaker_04
I'll also add, it's really trying to put some line between what are the real threats in life and what are the imagined ones, because as the real ones are coming at you, you feel emboldened a bit for having anxiety and fear.
01:30:43 Speaker_04
It can be misleading, weirdly.
01:30:45 Speaker_06
Yes. Well, it's a little bit like this risk assessment thing. Like there was an article or a book written about this, and I can't remember who it would be attributed to, but this idea of like, just because you feel
01:30:55 Speaker_06
that something is likely to happen because of a certain set of circumstances doesn't mean that it will. I think a lot of us look to feelings to tell us whether something is dangerous or not dangerous.
01:31:06 Speaker_06
And sometimes that's an appropriate response if you feel like someone's following you or something.
01:31:09 Speaker_06
I'm just talking more about people thinking about the probability of something bad happening because you feel like maybe it could or you worry that it might. You think somehow by having the worry, it's communicating that it's more likely.
01:31:20 Speaker_06
this movie, this woman is sort of alone raising these children in a very, very scary, harrowing circumstance. And what she imagines, one thing you can say that is not a giveaway, which is that she has already lost a child.
01:31:33 Speaker_06
And so her fear of it happening again becomes naturally very, very potent for her. And when you're by yourself and you're alone. That's key. Well, this is the other thing we were talking when Rob wasn't recording.
01:31:46 Speaker_06
That this idea of when you're not in a relationship, I have a couple of people in my life who are single and have been single for. years. And I'm not talking about because they couldn't get a man or something.
01:31:56 Speaker_06
I'm talking about decisions made about this.
01:31:58 Speaker_06
And I find them to be the most difficult relationships I have in my life because they don't have the consistency of a voice other than their own to either talk themselves out of some story they've told themselves or some assessment they're making.
01:32:13 Speaker_06
You know, think about the number of times you rely on Kristen to say to you, Dax, dude, my dude, this is not what you think it is. And you saying to her, babe, listen to me.
01:32:23 Speaker_06
You need sometimes, and sometimes it can be a friend, doesn't only have to be a romantic partner, but having people in your life that you can rely on to say to you, you're thinking about this is out of adjustment. And it's of paramount importance.
01:32:34 Speaker_06
Nothing could be more valuable in life than having that kind of connectivity. And when you don't have it, you're swirling in your own juices and it doesn't do you any good.
01:32:42 Speaker_04
Well, by the way, there's almost a fun game you could play could almost be a game show where it's like sometimes you're listening to someone tell you about their problem.
01:32:49 Speaker_04
I have the thought, well, they've been sitting with this one on their own for a very long time. I'm the first person to hear about that. They're even hearing themselves say this out loud and realizing this sounds a little nuts.
01:32:59 Speaker_04
And I know the fourth person that hears what they're going through. This will be a different story just by the act of hearing themselves out loud. I can tell.
01:33:08 Speaker_06
That's right. This is a real thing that happens in life. And I think in the movie, she has just got no one except for her daughters to bounce things off of.
01:33:16 Speaker_06
And I think she's got enough wherewithal, certainly in the beginning of the movie, to not bring them into too much of her worry. But it's obviously on her face. She's carrying a lot and the death of a child.
01:33:26 Speaker_06
And also, is there something out there that is trying to harm her and her family?
01:33:30 Speaker_04
in addition to the crazy dust bowls.
01:33:33 Speaker_06
Is there a person, an entity, a being, a thing that is coming for her and her children? And it is very scary to her and it's very real. And she's got no one to sort of say, did you hear that? Do you see that? Do you know about that?
01:33:46 Speaker_04
She doesn't want to freak her kids out.
01:33:47 Speaker_06
Right. And so it's this thing she's battling by herself, which is far more likely to send you down the rabbit hole of
01:33:53 Speaker_04
Another good metaphor. Just these family secrets. I think you could watch this movie and whatever your issues are are going to be on full exploration. Yeah, I agree. That's a trigger for me is like protecting kids from what? From reality?
01:34:05 Speaker_04
You can't protect them from it. They're in it. Right. By not telling them doesn't remove them from the reality. It just has them guessing.
01:34:12 Speaker_06
And also, I always feel like where there is a void, you fill it in with your own information that is probably erroneous or at the very least, not even accurate. What is the point?
01:34:21 Speaker_06
This is why I always feel this about relationships and friendships too, romantic or otherwise. I would rather talk about it. I'd rather you tell me every fucking thing you hate about what I did.
01:34:31 Speaker_06
I would rather you say it all and then let me at least respond and say, here's what I was thinking or here's what was going on with me. Like it, leave it, agree with it or not. At least the conversation is out there.
01:34:41 Speaker_06
At least you have a frame of reference for understanding why behavior is happening. And it's like, if you don't tell me why, I don't have to agree with you. I can tell you that was not my intention.
01:34:50 Speaker_06
You can tell me that my intention matters not to you at all. There does come a point where if you withhold that from me, and then I'm trying to figure out who to be or what to be for you, to you, or how best to be.
01:35:02 Speaker_06
I'm creating something that's like, I think you're doing X because of Y. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. No. And it's like, well, if you had told me. I wouldn't have gone over here and created it.
01:35:10 Speaker_06
I think friendships, relationships, romantically too, live or die on communication. And it's like, if you're able to say the hard, impossible thing and the other person can hold it, again, I'm not talking about agreement.
01:35:20 Speaker_06
I'm just talking about willingness, really, to hold something uncomfortable.
01:35:25 Speaker_04
And I think we index all differently. Like you and I need that.
01:35:29 Speaker_06
I do need that.
01:35:29 Speaker_04
Because I will fill in the gaps and there's no getting away from this thing I created.
01:35:34 Speaker_06
Correct. And then I'm the one not sleeping. You're sleeping fine. Yeah, because you're not even mad at me in the way that I think you're mad at me. You know, and it's like, I'm trying to figure out what I've done or what I didn't do.
01:35:42 Speaker_06
Back to that dualistic behavior a little bit as a kid. And the truth is, my world has gotten a little smaller of late because of these things. The older I've gotten, the more I've realized that there are some people in your life
01:35:55 Speaker_06
that can hang with the ugliness of things, the truth of things, be responsible for their own part in things, expect you to be responsible for your part of it.
01:36:05 Speaker_06
But people who take their ball and go home and don't want to talk about it, for me personally, I can't do that.
01:36:11 Speaker_06
There are other people who can coexist perfectly that way because they both don't wanna talk about it and then just move on, moveon.org, you know?
01:36:17 Speaker_04
Yeah, yeah. That's a good, very good site.
01:36:19 Speaker_06
But there were times in my life where that didn't seem as important to me, of having like-mindedness in terms of, again, not agreeing with me on everything, but at least willingness and openness to being able to really get in there and roll your sleeves up and pull it all out.
01:36:34 Speaker_06
Look at it, shake it all out, it's blood and guts and dirt and shit and vomit, and then spray it all down and see what you're left with.
01:36:40 Speaker_06
And either there's something you want to put back in the body and sew it back up and we go back on our way and we're better, deeper, richer for it. Or you go, I don't want what's there. Great. I don't want it either.
01:36:49 Speaker_04
By the way, I've never had a single experience where we did all that and then afterwards I didn't feel better. Correct. Me neither. Whether or not we resolved anything or not. Me neither, but there are other people. The proof for me is so there.
01:36:59 Speaker_06
But to me, I think you do have to rely on another person's sanity in some way. Because you could be willing to have a conversation about the deepest, darkest things about yourself, your jealousy, your envy, your hatred.
01:37:09 Speaker_06
But if the other person isn't willing to do that same kind of excavation, I do think it gets really hard because then you end up feeling a little like, wow, I just put all of this shit.
01:37:19 Speaker_08
Well, that's a level of relationship. Yes. There are certain people you wouldn't do that with. Exactly.
01:37:23 Speaker_06
In your life.
01:37:24 Speaker_08
You want to keep at some sort of arm's length.
01:37:26 Speaker_06
Totally. There's plenty of them. Yeah.
01:37:27 Speaker_08
Because as my therapist would say, if you have a problem with someone, but you know, like, you know what, this relationship has limitations. And then you go to them and you say, hey, this is what's going on. And it's this and this.
01:37:39 Speaker_08
You're actually inviting intimacy.
01:37:41 Speaker_06
That's what you're saying. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. In order to make the risk of that worth it, is A, you have to know you want the thing in the first place. And then second, you have to know that the relationship itself can withstand that.
01:37:53 Speaker_06
And you don't go doing that with your guy who gives you your Starbucks in the morning. But there are people who do that, too. They want to parse out everything with every person. But I would like to talk about almost anything with almost everyone.
01:38:01 Speaker_06
Yeah, we do love a deep dive. I love a deep dive. I like to get in there.
01:38:05 Speaker_04
As I said at the beginning, you're a unicorn and an anomaly and an enigma wrapped in a mystery and uh, what did Churchill say? And I got to know you better. And yet I still have it. Really? Yeah. That's kind of the dream outcome for me. Cool girl.
01:38:19 Speaker_04
I definitely know you better. And also you're still pretty exotic to me.
01:38:24 Speaker_06
Really? I feel like we're like a lot alike.
01:38:26 Speaker_04
I do too.
01:38:26 Speaker_06
So what's exotic about it?
01:38:28 Speaker_04
Why is there a woman version of me? What do you mean? They made a lady version?
01:38:34 Speaker_06
They made a lady version of me?
01:38:36 Speaker_04
Actually, they made a male version of you because you're 15 days older than me. So I'll take that. I'm a replica. I'm the male version. I like it, thanks.
01:38:45 Speaker_06
I like it, but I'm so interested about what's exotic about it.
01:38:48 Speaker_04
I feel like such a... You feel pedestrian? I feel a little bit regular. Yeah, you're not. I'm not. You're not in a wonderful way. Yeah, in the best way. That's what I'm saying. You had unicorn vibes coming in, and then you, like, maintained unicorn vibes.
01:39:01 Speaker_04
That's what I'm saying.
01:39:02 Speaker_08
I wonder what Monica feels. I feel unicorn vibes, too. I told you you were a cool girl before ABR, and I still think it.
01:39:09 Speaker_04
Wow. This was really fun.
01:39:10 Speaker_06
This was really fun.
01:39:11 Speaker_04
Did you like it?
01:39:12 Speaker_06
I really loved it. I've been wondering for a long time, like, why no one's asked me to be on it.
01:39:15 Speaker_08
No, are you kidding? Yeah. We have been asking for years. Oh, really? Yes. I think we told Amanda, hey, can you tell her?
01:39:23 Speaker_04
Yeah, yeah.
01:39:24 Speaker_08
I don't remember her telling me that at all.
01:39:25 Speaker_04
Well, I guess the main takeaway of this is fuck you, Amanda P. We learn anything on this episode is fuck you. Bird, fuck you, bird.
01:39:34 Speaker_06
This was fun.
01:39:35 Speaker_04
Well, this was a blast. Thank you for coming. I really enjoyed this. I want everyone to watch Hold Your Breath, which is on Hulu, October 3rd. This is fantastic that you can just watch it in your house.
01:39:48 Speaker_06
People are lamenting the fact that, but at the same time, I'm kind of like, do you really want to leave your house a lot?
01:39:52 Speaker_04
That's the problem. I'm saying one thing, but I'm living in a different way. I know, this is how I feel too.
01:39:56 Speaker_06
I'm fraudulent. I know I'm fraudulent that way too.
01:39:58 Speaker_04
Okay, well, this is a real party and I hope we do it again.
01:40:01 Speaker_06
We're going to do it again.
01:40:02 Speaker_04
Okay, great.
01:40:02 Speaker_06
You're not going to get rid of me.
01:40:03 Speaker_04
All right. Everybody watch. Hold your breath. October 3rd. Don't hold your breath until October 3rd.
01:40:08 Speaker_06
Well, you could.
01:40:09 Speaker_04
It's dangerous.
01:40:12 Speaker_10
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
01:40:21 Speaker_04
He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here.
01:40:26 Speaker_08
She's gonna let him have the facts. You have a computer today too?
01:40:31 Speaker_04
I just wanted to see what it was like. What if I had a computer? I do like that you have a prop. I'm jealous that you have a prop. It's fun. It's cool. You play with a guitar and I've just got to sing on a mic. I can't hide behind it.
01:40:46 Speaker_04
But I just have it because I was doing some work and I had it in my hand and I didn't know where to set it in my house. Sure. I have a whole thing about setting things down. I think you've heard me talk about it before.
01:40:57 Speaker_08
Yeah, because you have been judgmental.
01:41:00 Speaker_04
I'm very judgmental of people who lose things.
01:41:02 Speaker_08
Yeah.
01:41:03 Speaker_04
AKA me. Well, no, most people lose things.
01:41:08 Speaker_08
Yeah.
01:41:08 Speaker_04
But I always argue if you only have X amount of places, you set things down. You can't really, you know, even saying it out loud. I sound terrible. I recognize.
01:41:17 Speaker_08
No, it makes sense. It's just, I think you think of it as like, this is so obvious.
01:41:23 Speaker_04
It's a solution. It's like your teeth are falling off. Well, you brush them as a toothpaste.
01:41:28 Speaker_08
Your idea sounds great.
01:41:29 Speaker_04
Yeah, no one likes it though. Everyone I pitch it to who loses stuff, they don't like it. I've never convinced anyone to adopt this strategy, but at any rate, I kind of live by it.
01:41:37 Speaker_04
So my computer only goes certain places because I would have the panic of my life if I lost my computer. I couldn't put it upstairs because cleaning's happening upstairs. And then I was like, oh, I'll set it on the counter and run to the attic.
01:41:50 Speaker_04
What do we call this? By the way, side note, the garage?
01:41:53 Speaker_08
I call it the garage.
01:41:54 Speaker_04
That's fun. Side note again, another side note. I dealt with the cobwebs. Have you noticed we have cobwebs in the very peak of the roof in the attic? Well, I've been noticing them and I'm like, the guests must see those.
01:42:09 Speaker_04
There's a couple that are like, they've spun together, they've gotten dirty over time. They're gross. They look like hanging pinatas and there's dust inside. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween, happy birthday, happy quinceanera.
01:42:20 Speaker_04
So I was in my garage using my leaf blower to blow up the shit from the garage. And I noticed, oh, I had some cobwebs in the corner of the garage. And I used my leaf blower. By God, it got rid of them. A leaf blower just blast the cobwebs away.
01:42:33 Speaker_04
And I went ding, ding, ding. This was just Sunday. So then I immediately sprinted up to the attic and I was just leaf blowing the shit out of the top of the attic.
01:42:43 Speaker_04
So when we get up there in a half hour, which we're scheduled to do, I want you to look at the ground because there's bits of cobweb laying all over the ground now, but it is off the ceiling.
01:42:52 Speaker_08
Ew, you prefer it on the ground?
01:42:55 Speaker_04
I prefer it out of the attic. I had to get it off the ceiling. And what was I going to do? Get a ladder and some feather? And I just took the leaf blower to it? I thought that was a pretty creative solution.
01:43:06 Speaker_08
It is.
01:43:07 Speaker_04
Okay, back to this. So I didn't know where to put it, and I'm not allowed to put it in places I'll forget it. So then I was just carrying it, and then I thought, oh fun, I'll have a prop like Monica.
01:43:16 Speaker_08
Interesting, and I wonder where you're gonna put it next.
01:43:19 Speaker_04
Bend over, I'll show you.
01:43:21 Speaker_08
That's not one of your places, so you can't put it there.
01:43:24 Speaker_04
Remember I said that to my mother-in-law, and she kind of took it seriously. Bend over, I'll show you, is a big saying in our house. Kristen says it a lot. I think the kids even say it. I say it. But some people don't like that saying.
01:43:35 Speaker_08
Well, it's rude, objectively, but it is cute.
01:43:37 Speaker_04
It's so ridiculous.
01:43:39 Speaker_08
You're not really... She took it seriously in that, like, she bent over,
01:43:47 Speaker_04
No, she just reported to Kristen that I had said that to her and she did not think it was very funny.
01:43:52 Speaker_08
I see. This is why you can't have a computer, FYI.
01:43:55 Speaker_04
Because I clean it while working.
01:43:56 Speaker_08
Yeah, you're like all busy with it.
01:43:58 Speaker_04
Well, good prop work. You incorporate it into your acting. You should know that from all your training at your various schools you went to. I didn't even go to acting school, but I know to incorporate your props. Okay.
01:44:09 Speaker_08
We're on a time schedule.
01:44:11 Speaker_04
We're on a time schedule, which is why I'm immediately can't get on. I know that in the back of my head.
01:44:18 Speaker_08
So you're trying to like do the opposite?
01:44:19 Speaker_04
The rebel in me is like, I can't, now I can't concentrate. Okay, I'm so sorry. Where were we at? This is going away. I'll put it there. That's over. That fun experiment and game is over.
01:44:30 Speaker_08
Is this gonna be one of your new spots? Or do you have to, see, this is my problem with your plan, right? Yeah. This isn't one of your spots.
01:44:38 Speaker_08
So really by your theory, you'd have to stop what you're doing right now, go walk this over to one of your designated locations, then walk back. And no one does that.
01:44:50 Speaker_04
This is no fault of your own. I haven't explained the entire system to you.
01:44:53 Speaker_08
OK.
01:44:54 Speaker_04
Obviously, if it's in my line of sight, my purview, I don't have to worry about where it's at. If I'm at a restaurant, I can see my phone. Obviously, the restaurant's not one of the places I put my phone because I don't live at the restaurant.
01:45:07 Speaker_04
But as long as it's in my line of sight, I can't lose it.
01:45:10 Speaker_08
Wait, this is that I'm going to put so many holes just like your toe.
01:45:14 Speaker_04
No, you either. Wow. Updates on that, too. If it's in your line of sight, you're fine. You can't lose something that's in your line of sight.
01:45:20 Speaker_08
Of course you can. That's exactly how it happens in my line of sight. I know my phone's there. This is great. Do our thing. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. We're late for our thing because we are.
01:45:30 Speaker_04
Stop. That's the problem. You can't get up and leave the line of sight.
01:45:34 Speaker_08
Well, you don't plan on it being a hurry, but then it's a hurry and it's like, oh fuck, we gotta go, we gotta go. I'll get my, and then I run up there and then- You're acting like there's a monster is chasing you or something.
01:45:48 Speaker_08
Your brain doesn't work like this. Like I'm always like flustered like this.
01:45:51 Speaker_04
Oh, you are.
01:45:52 Speaker_08
Yeah, there's always so much to do and like so much happening. And I have to run upstairs and then I take my computer. OK, I'm like, oh, and I grab my purse and I run out. OK, then we do our interview that we're about to do.
01:46:10 Speaker_04
And I'm like, hours have gone by.
01:46:12 Speaker_08
Where's my phone?
01:46:14 Speaker_04
Right.
01:46:14 Speaker_08
That's how this happens.
01:46:17 Speaker_04
I'm going to not leave its orbit. That's a commitment I have.
01:46:21 Speaker_08
Okay, we'll see what happens when we're rushing up.
01:46:24 Speaker_04
My toe.
01:46:24 Speaker_08
At 3.07.
01:46:25 Speaker_04
On a previous fact check, I did tell you that I had poked some holes in my toe. And then this weekend, I had just removed one of my fungal patches.
01:46:37 Speaker_08
Yep. I'm surprised you still want to talk about this.
01:46:42 Speaker_04
I don't. And even as I was saying my fungal patch, I was like, why do you keep doing this? Anyways, I saw the toenail. I snapped a picture.
01:46:50 Speaker_08
Sure did.
01:46:50 Speaker_04
And I sent it to you. I said, is this worse or better than you were expecting?
01:46:55 Speaker_08
And I said worse, but that made it better.
01:47:01 Speaker_04
So describe for the listener what the toe meant. It's bad. I can see that it's bad. That's why I decided to send you a picture. I'm not delusional that that looks healthy.
01:47:14 Speaker_08
I really want you to go to the doctor when we get back from our trip. We're going on a work trip. And when we're back, you really need to go to the doctor. It's time. Because like, I think they might have to cut your toe off.
01:47:25 Speaker_04
Yeah, that's what it looks like. So the update that I wanted to share with you, you saw it. And I think this has something to do with my products I'm using on the toenail. So then, this is unrelated.
01:47:35 Speaker_04
I just noticed my right toenails were a little bit long. I'm gonna trim those. And then I started getting after the other toe, and then I started trimming around that toe. And I was able to trim really far down without it hurting.
01:47:47 Speaker_04
I think the products are making the gross nail maybe hopefully separate.
01:47:52 Speaker_04
Because I think what really, my fear and why I don't want to go is I think they're going to look at it and go, we've got to surgically pull that nail off and you got to start fresh.
01:47:59 Speaker_08
Right.
01:48:00 Speaker_04
And that seems terrible. What's your least favorite part of any torture scene is nails.
01:48:07 Speaker_08
Yeah.
01:48:07 Speaker_04
So I have cut most of it off.
01:48:10 Speaker_08
Okay.
01:48:11 Speaker_04
And I think I'm gonna, hopefully by the end of our business travels, that toenail is going to be completely removed. That's my current goal.
01:48:20 Speaker_08
And is the black still visible though?
01:48:22 Speaker_04
Don't tell anyone about the black.
01:48:27 Speaker_08
OK, and the black is definitely the most disturbing part.
01:48:30 Speaker_04
It is. Well, but it's also been accentuated by the fact that when I put the hot needle in there, that was all black with soot. So it also deposited a ton of soot in my in those holes. That's a lot of what you're seeing is soot. Bend over, I'll show you.
01:48:44 Speaker_08
First of all, I don't think that's a lot of what I'm seeing. I think I'm seeing a lot of fungus. And then also, why'd you put soot in there? That's not going to help anything.
01:48:53 Speaker_04
Well, because I wasn't going to heat up the whole point of heating up the well, there's two points, really. There's so it'll melt through the nail. That's why you heat it.
01:49:02 Speaker_08
Well, sterilization.
01:49:03 Speaker_04
And then sterilization.
01:49:04 Speaker_08
Yeah.
01:49:05 Speaker_04
So I'm not gonna like sterilize it and then wipe it with something that contaminates it. So I'm just sticking with whatever.
01:49:12 Speaker_08
You could have, yes.
01:49:13 Speaker_04
Alcohol patch, alcohol. Exactly, alcohol. I should have. I was in a rush for whatever reason.
01:49:19 Speaker_08
It's because you used to love your feet so much and then the doctor ruined one of your feet. And now you're like self-sabotaging.
01:49:28 Speaker_04
I know I flew too close to the sun because I was on Kimmel bragging about having foot competitions with staff members. So I know why I've been smited.
01:49:39 Speaker_08
The old narrative was that your feet were perfect. The new narrative is I flew too close to the sun. And now you're self-fulfilling that prophecy. And it doesn't have to be that way.
01:49:48 Speaker_04
I actually, to let you know where I'm at mentally, I had a moment of optimism when I was able to cut as much of it off as I did the other day, trying not to puke.
01:49:57 Speaker_08
I wanna see it again.
01:49:58 Speaker_04
I'll show you.
01:49:59 Speaker_08
I need to see it with all of it removed.
01:50:01 Speaker_04
Okay, I think you're gonna be encouraged. Anyways, once I started seeing a little light at the end of the tunnel, like, oh, I think I'm gonna be able to get this nail completely off.
01:50:10 Speaker_08
Yeah, sure.
01:50:10 Speaker_04
Without surgery. I then let myself imagine, what would my left foot look like if a healthy toenail grew in? Because I don't have any other issues on my left foot. It's just that hideous toenail.
01:50:25 Speaker_04
I started getting thinking, no, I'm gonna be able to salvage this one. I had written off both feet, but now I'm back to thinking I might have one really attractive foot.
01:50:34 Speaker_08
Is the black still there? You never answered that. Even though you took a lot of the nail off, is the black on the bed still there?
01:50:42 Speaker_04
Well, here's a part that's so gross I don't wanna tell you about, or anyone that listens to this program. When I cut off that sizable chunk of the nail, I flipped it over to see.
01:50:54 Speaker_08
Sure.
01:50:55 Speaker_04
And it's so bad what's underneath.
01:50:59 Speaker_08
Was it black? Like, what is it?
01:51:01 Speaker_04
I don't wanna say what color it was. It was brown. Isn't that worse than black?
01:51:06 Speaker_08
No, cause black is like, black is true, yes.
01:51:09 Speaker_04
Necrotic.
01:51:11 Speaker_08
Gangrene.
01:51:12 Speaker_04
Gangress.
01:51:12 Speaker_08
It's fully done. It's done.
01:51:14 Speaker_04
Yeah. So this was more of a brown.
01:51:18 Speaker_08
Okay, so we'll check back in after the work trip that you think is, which is only like a few days, by the way.
01:51:25 Speaker_04
Yeah, that nail's gonna be gone by the time.
01:51:26 Speaker_08
Everything's gonna be fixed by then. We'll report back. Now, we won't give any details about this, but we did see a, we went to a screening of a movie this weekend.
01:51:37 Speaker_04
A huge family affair.
01:51:39 Speaker_08
Yes, with Wobby Wob's family, your family.
01:51:43 Speaker_04
Natalie, Calvin, Calvin's cute friend Bea.
01:51:46 Speaker_08
Yeah.
01:51:48 Speaker_04
My Chili's, Ana, Julia, Justin, my cousin, his Chili, Nomi. It was so fun.
01:51:56 Speaker_08
It was really fun and- We saw Wicked, did you already say that? No, I didn't, but I wasn't going to.
01:52:01 Speaker_04
Oh, I think we can say we saw Wicked.
01:52:04 Speaker_08
I don't think we're, I mean, it's like very- I read the list of things we can't say about it.
01:52:08 Speaker_04
Okay. And I'm gonna now tell you all the things. Now, but I read the list and saying we saw it is not prohibited.
01:52:14 Speaker_08
Okay, we saw Wicked, we got an advanced screening, very exciting. Really fun. And it was really fun and very good.
01:52:23 Speaker_04
Very, very good.
01:52:24 Speaker_08
And I will say I had, and this is mean, but I had low expectations.
01:52:31 Speaker_04
Because it's a musical, right?
01:52:32 Speaker_08
Yeah, I'm not a big musical gal, although I have seen Wicked, the play.
01:52:37 Speaker_04
And did you like it?
01:52:37 Speaker_08
And I did love it, but it's been so many years and I forgot. And so I'm not a big musical person in general, and then I'm definitely not a big musical on screen.
01:52:48 Speaker_04
Right, yeah. Very few musical movies can I name that I've liked.
01:52:52 Speaker_08
Yes, but count this one in.
01:52:55 Speaker_04
And I was, were you singing in your apartment any of the songs? Because I was singing some songs.
01:53:00 Speaker_08
Which one did you sing? Popular?
01:53:03 Speaker_04
No, but I love popular. Popular.
01:53:05 Speaker_08
You know, I sang that song for an audition in college.
01:53:08 Speaker_04
You did? How do you think you did?
01:53:10 Speaker_08
I don't think I booked whatever part I was trying to book. I'm sure I did a horrible job because I was so self-conscious.
01:53:18 Speaker_04
Sure.
01:53:19 Speaker_08
It's very scary to sing in front of people. I mean, you don't know what that...
01:53:23 Speaker_04
No, I've had to sing on stage in the ground wings for singing impromptu, which there were some built in. Luckily, I was always so bad at it, they finally weeded me out of those. You know, there's a group there that's great at it.
01:53:35 Speaker_08
But you love singing.
01:53:36 Speaker_04
I love singing.
01:53:36 Speaker_08
In front of people, I mean.
01:53:39 Speaker_04
I did have one moment.
01:53:40 Speaker_08
You do it a lot. I'm just giving.
01:53:44 Speaker_04
Sure. When Stars Born Was Out. How's that song? What are the beginning lyrics of Shallow? I love the beginning of that song. And I love to sing the beginning of that song. I'm off the deep end. Watch as I dive in.
01:53:59 Speaker_08
I thought that was the chorus.
01:53:59 Speaker_04
That's the chorus. What's the very beginning lyrics? Tell me something, girl. Are you happy in this modern world? Tell me something, girl. Chris and I had to go on stage in this huge Walmart conference. It was an outdoor amphitheater. I was there for that.
01:54:12 Speaker_04
Oh, you were there for that, right.
01:54:13 Speaker_08
Yes.
01:54:14 Speaker_04
And I couldn't resist taking the opportunity to sing it as loud and as passionately as I could. And that is the time I did it. And I don't regret it. It felt great. I don't think I sounded good, but it felt really good.
01:54:24 Speaker_08
Yeah.
01:54:25 Speaker_04
And there was enough joke built into it because it was a popular movie at the time that there was no expectation I had to be good.
01:54:31 Speaker_08
I think your relationship with singing in front of people is different than mine.
01:54:35 Speaker_04
I'm just going to say that. Just know that I do think I'm bad at it.
01:54:38 Speaker_08
No, I know that. But that doesn't stop you.
01:54:41 Speaker_04
It doesn't stop me.
01:54:42 Speaker_08
Which is a big difference. No, it's just a difference.
01:54:46 Speaker_04
Yes. You want to be good at it if you're going to do it.
01:54:48 Speaker_08
Yes. I want to be amazing at it.
01:54:52 Speaker_04
Yeah.
01:54:52 Speaker_08
That's the problem.
01:54:53 Speaker_04
I think we can say that too. There was amazing singing in this. Buckle up.
01:54:58 Speaker_08
This leads me to a question. So we get there, and before the movie starts, some members of the group are already singing the songs. Like, people are excited, right?
01:55:10 Speaker_02
Yeah.
01:55:10 Speaker_08
Delta was like, she was like, Lincoln, please don't sing the whole movie.
01:55:17 Speaker_04
Yes.
01:55:19 Speaker_08
And I could really relate to her.
01:55:21 Speaker_04
You could.
01:55:22 Speaker_08
I do have like an aversion to people who are singing when I'm trying to hear the actual song. Sure, sure, sure. I just decided I think there's two camps. A camp that really doesn't like that and a camp that loves it and is fine with it.
01:55:39 Speaker_08
And it doesn't matter how good the people are who are singing.
01:55:42 Speaker_04
Right.
01:55:42 Speaker_08
It's not like if it's bad or good, it matters. It's just like, but I want to hear the source material. Correct.
01:55:49 Speaker_04
Yep.
01:55:50 Speaker_08
And so where do you land on that?
01:55:52 Speaker_04
Well, I'm with you, but I do get then overwhelmed with I can viscerally feel the joy that all because at one point, seven or eight people in our screening were singing along.
01:56:04 Speaker_04
And so I was like, yeah, I kind of want to hear the voice of these people because they're clearly the best in the world. That's why they got cast. But the visceral joy that they were all getting overwhelmed that feeling for me.
01:56:18 Speaker_04
It's like when you're at a concert. I also don't want to hear the audience sing the concert. I want to hear Stevie Nicks sing it. But there's that moment where everyone's getting to sing it as loud as they can. And I do let that take over my Yeah.
01:56:31 Speaker_04
Preference.
01:56:31 Speaker_08
I guess that is funny, because I don't have it during concerts. To me, that's just like part of it.
01:56:35 Speaker_04
You should. You've paid to go hear the actual artists sing the song.
01:56:39 Speaker_08
Yeah. And when everyone was singing, I didn't have it. There's something about it. It must be a deeper thing. It must be like, why do some people think that this is theirs? It must be that. Because if everyone's doing it, then everyone's doing it.
01:56:58 Speaker_08
Everyone's in on it. It's fun. I didn't see the Taylor Swift cons, I mean the movie.
01:57:04 Speaker_09
Yeah.
01:57:05 Speaker_08
But I know that that wouldn't have bothered me there. Right. Like everyone's there, that's what you're supposed to do.
01:57:12 Speaker_04
Yes, yes.
01:57:12 Speaker_08
So I don't know, I just, I was in the shower and I was thinking about that and I wonder where you fell.
01:57:17 Speaker_04
Right.
01:57:17 Speaker_08
In the camps.
01:57:18 Speaker_04
Yeah, I want to hear also, I've never heard these. I haven't been to the musical several times. I haven't listened to the soundtrack like everyone has. So, yeah, I want to kind of hear it.
01:57:28 Speaker_02
Yeah.
01:57:28 Speaker_04
But then as soon as it's happening, I recognize that the people are having so much fun doing it that I'm I. That ends up being more important to me than hearing what I wanted to hear. That's good.
01:57:39 Speaker_04
So my cousin was visiting this weekend, which is really, really fun. JP and his little girl Nomi and her and Delta are the bestest of friends.
01:57:47 Speaker_04
And I know I've already said this before, but I think it's so interesting that because you're family, there's another layer. You didn't have a lot of cousins, did you?
01:57:57 Speaker_08
Well, I have cousins, but they didn't live near me.
01:58:00 Speaker_04
They weren't close. So you didn't really have that cousin thing. Yeah, I really did. Like, I love my cousins. They weren't people I would have hung out with in school.
01:58:09 Speaker_08
Right.
01:58:10 Speaker_04
And I loved them so much and had so much fun with them always.
01:58:14 Speaker_08
Yeah.
01:58:14 Speaker_04
And I just, I think it's really cute to observe. And it's hard to know, though, with Delta, she can really be friends with anybody.
01:58:20 Speaker_08
True. Yeah, when she was introducing me.
01:58:23 Speaker_04
To Nomi?
01:58:25 Speaker_08
To Nomi, she said, this is Monica. She is my soulmate. She's known me my whole life. She was my babysitter and now she works with my dad. But not only that, she has a great personality and she's really pretty.
01:58:42 Speaker_04
She should be your publicist.
01:58:43 Speaker_08
I know. She's my hype woman.
01:58:48 Speaker_04
Yeah, like they would call her, like Fallon would call to have you on and then it would be, they'd be offering the second spot, not the first. And she'd be like, absolutely not. Don't call back until, are you crazy? That's my soulmate.
01:59:02 Speaker_04
Yeah, it was so sweet.
01:59:03 Speaker_08
I think Naomi was like, oh wow.
01:59:05 Speaker_04
Okay, that's a lot.
01:59:11 Speaker_08
OK, so this is for Sarah Paulson. Speaking of charming women.
01:59:15 Speaker_04
I loved her.
01:59:16 Speaker_08
Loved her.
01:59:17 Speaker_04
It's interesting when you're watching an actor who's just super great in their intents.
01:59:23 Speaker_08
Well, we had this with... I know exactly who you're talking about. She's in the archives.
01:59:29 Speaker_04
Elizabeth Moss. Elizabeth Moss. You're going to, I'm assuming she's really consternated and I don't know if that's the right adjective, but, you know, is very serious and grinding through life because the performances are so hard and impressive. Yeah.
01:59:46 Speaker_04
And I think I might have did that to Sarah before meeting her. I mean, she must be so serious because she's so good.
01:59:53 Speaker_08
I know she was spunky as hell.
01:59:56 Speaker_04
Oh, what a spunk. Be careful. Yeah, spunkster works. I almost said spunk machine, and that sounds terrible. Oh, my. Yeah, that's not right. That would be the wrong.
02:00:10 Speaker_08
But she was so fun and playful.
02:00:14 Speaker_04
Love playful. Challenging in a fun way.
02:00:17 Speaker_08
Yes. Yeah, what a joy. Speaking of her, not speaking of her.
02:00:22 Speaker_04
Okay.
02:00:23 Speaker_08
But it is tangential because she works with Ryan Murphy so much.
02:00:26 Speaker_04
Yeah.
02:00:26 Speaker_08
Have you watched any of Monsters?
02:00:29 Speaker_04
Yeah. I think I watched the first two episodes.
02:00:32 Speaker_08
Yeah.
02:00:33 Speaker_04
But what it ended up doing is driving me to the documentaries.
02:00:36 Speaker_08
I know, I really want to watch the doc, the new doc.
02:00:39 Speaker_04
I had to answer what was happening when I was watching the Ryan Murphy show, which is great, by the way.
02:00:45 Speaker_08
Yeah.
02:00:45 Speaker_04
Let me just say, I think it's great. I was having a hard time imagining that the one Mendez brother, I don't know which one, was that enormous of an asshole.
02:00:54 Speaker_02
I agree.
02:00:54 Speaker_04
It's just so over the top. He's yelling at fucking trick-or-treaters. I know. He's calling people poor. And I just was like, I can't really continue on until I get the real, by the way, if he's not that, that's fine, but I just need to know.
02:01:09 Speaker_04
So then I started watching the docs to get that answered. And the docs, although I do think it's gonna get, if I continue on and I think the later episodes do fall in line more with the docs, but at least the doc I saw,
02:01:25 Speaker_04
you know, pointed out that if any of that testimony was given in today's times, they'd be believed 100%. And watching it, I'm like, phew. But what's so crazy, and it just proves how warping context is to your perception. I was alive then.
02:01:40 Speaker_04
I was a 16 year old. This was all happening. I would see the trial on TV. And I was like, yeah, these rich fucking kids killed their parents because they couldn't even be patient enough to get the money later.
02:01:50 Speaker_04
You know, and I'm a poor kid, so I hate them. And so, yeah, I think that testimony, it wasn't persuasive to me back then. But now I watch it and I'm like, no way, that clearly, there's no way that's not real.
02:02:05 Speaker_08
Well, also though, it was a mistrial.
02:02:08 Speaker_04
Yeah.
02:02:08 Speaker_08
And then in the actual trial, all that evidence wasn't admissible.
02:02:13 Speaker_04
Yeah, they couldn't have their family members who had observed weird shit happen. They couldn't have the cousin.
02:02:16 Speaker_08
Yeah, they couldn't bring up the abuse, which is like, that is the whole defense. So I don't, it's crazy.
02:02:23 Speaker_04
Yeah.
02:02:24 Speaker_08
And they're still in jail.
02:02:26 Speaker_04
Yeah.
02:02:27 Speaker_08
It's pretty bad. I mean.
02:02:29 Speaker_04
I mean, look, there's a lot of things, though. Like, OK, let's say the abuse is real.
02:02:34 Speaker_08
Yeah.
02:02:34 Speaker_04
Do I think a 22-year-old needed to go kill his parents? To say that the abuse is real isn't even saying they shouldn't be in jail. And I'm not saying they should or shouldn't. I don't have a position.
02:02:46 Speaker_04
It's not like you believe the abuse is real and therefore what they did is fine. It's not like those are the two options.
02:02:52 Speaker_04
Either you think they're cold-blooded killers and they weren't abused, or they were abused and they shouldn't be in jail for murdering their parents. I think there's a third option, which is like, I understand why they maybe did it.
02:03:08 Speaker_04
I don't think that's a course of action people are allowed to take in the response of abuse.
02:03:13 Speaker_08
Well, either do I, but I also think your sentence should be reflective of that. Like, do I think those two are a danger to society? No, I do not.
02:03:24 Speaker_04
Right.
02:03:25 Speaker_08
Based on their experience. And like, same with Gypsy Rose.
02:03:29 Speaker_04
Yeah.
02:03:29 Speaker_08
I mean, she is out now, but like, same situation.
02:03:32 Speaker_04
But I don't think the policy is if you've been abused, you get to kill. You don't get to be judge, executioner, whatever, all those things.
02:03:40 Speaker_08
Well, I don't think so either. I think that you should have to serve some time, but I don't think you should have to serve a life sentence.
02:03:46 Speaker_04
Your whole life, yeah, yeah. We agree.
02:03:49 Speaker_08
If the whole point is to keep people like dangerous people, dangerous people off the street, this is not that.
02:03:55 Speaker_04
Yeah.
02:03:56 Speaker_08
But we get really mixed up about what the point of jail and retribution is.
02:04:03 Speaker_04
Yes.
02:04:03 Speaker_08
Anyway, Sarah, there's only, I only have two facts for her. Okay.
02:04:07 Speaker_04
Hit me with the two facts.
02:04:09 Speaker_08
Okay. One is the Carrie Fisher quote. She said a Carrie Fisher quote and said she probably was going to mess it up, but it's, if my life wasn't funny, it would just be true. And that's unacceptable.
02:04:21 Speaker_04
I had the privilege of hanging out with her one time.
02:04:24 Speaker_08
What was that like?
02:04:24 Speaker_04
At her house. A friend of mine was really good friends with her, invited me over, and she was very fucking cool.
02:04:30 Speaker_08
I bet.
02:04:30 Speaker_04
Yeah. Carrie Fisher.
02:04:32 Speaker_08
I know.
02:04:32 Speaker_04
Not Mendez.
02:04:34 Speaker_08
Menendez. You say it every time.
02:04:40 Speaker_04
Menendez?
02:04:41 Speaker_08
Menendez. Okay. Studio 60 had 22 episodes. We were talking about that.
02:04:47 Speaker_04
22 episodes. I loved that show. I watched it. Why do you think you loved it? It's Sorkin.
02:04:55 Speaker_08
Yeah, I'm a sucker for Sorkin.
02:04:57 Speaker_04
I'm a sucker for Sorkin as well.
02:04:59 Speaker_08
I'm a spooge monster.
02:05:02 Speaker_04
And you loved Chandler at the time.
02:05:04 Speaker_08
Matthew Perry, I love.
02:05:05 Speaker_04
A spunk machine. Yeah, thank you. That's what you could call a teenage boy.
02:05:09 Speaker_08
Yeah, I love Matthew Perry. I love Bradley Whitford. The cast is insane. Amanda Peet. I love Steven Weber. It's dynamite. It's a dynamite cast. I love the like, backstage, quote, like backstage world.
02:05:35 Speaker_04
Of BTS.
02:05:36 Speaker_08
Yeah, BTS. Like the newsroom. I loved the newsroom.
02:05:39 Speaker_04
Same situation. You got me with newsroom.
02:05:42 Speaker_08
Like behind the scenes of a newsroom. This is behind the scenes of SNL, essentially. Yes. Like what's not to love? I loved it.
02:05:49 Speaker_04
Yeah, I'm trying to think why I didn't watch it. And I'm guessing because in some weird way, maybe I thought You're not allowed to do that about SNL? I'm guessing.
02:06:00 Speaker_08
Yeah, but ironically, the other show that was on at the same time was 30 Rock.
02:06:06 Speaker_04
So a lot- I love 30 Rock.
02:06:08 Speaker_08
Which is definitely, that is SNL.
02:06:10 Speaker_04
It was SNL, it was a talk show?
02:06:12 Speaker_08
No, I mean, they called it, I mean, it was SNL.
02:06:14 Speaker_04
It was an SNL. Yeah, you're right, I take that all back. Maybe you felt- I think because Tina was doing it.
02:06:18 Speaker_08
Yeah, you felt like it was allowed because it was Tina. And it was so fucking good. So funny. But I think a lot of people felt that they had to choose.
02:06:27 Speaker_04
Between those two shows. Yes. They weren't on the same time though, wasn't 60 way before?
02:06:32 Speaker_08
Now 2006 was Studio 60.
02:06:35 Speaker_04
And I think 30 Rock was probably 2008. 2006. Yep. Just like I said, 2008. Same time. Same time.
02:06:44 Speaker_08
Oopsies.
02:06:45 Speaker_04
Like I said.
02:06:48 Speaker_08
I kind of remember it specifically because I was in college and I had this professor. I was like, oh, I love Studio 60. And he was like, oh, 30 Rock is so much better. Oh. And I was like, that's really different.
02:07:02 Speaker_04
Yeah, yeah, one's a one-hour drama, one's a- Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.
02:07:05 Speaker_08
So I think some people, like my professor, shout out George Contini. Well, that's it.
02:07:11 Speaker_04
That's everything?
02:07:11 Speaker_08
Yeah, that's our time for today. Okay. The bell's about to ring.
02:07:16 Speaker_04
Okay, well, thanks for having me on your show. Thanks for letting me bring my prop.
02:07:20 Speaker_08
Just put your homework in the bin on your way out.
02:07:24 Speaker_04
Okay, great, I will do that.
02:07:26 Speaker_08
Did you ever do homework? Did you do your homework?
02:07:29 Speaker_04
Yes.
02:07:29 Speaker_08
Oh, some people don't.
02:07:31 Speaker_04
I didn't do all of it. I might have relied on just testing well at times.
02:07:39 Speaker_08
What are you trying to do?
02:07:40 Speaker_04
Why are you trying to gaslight me?
02:07:44 Speaker_08
Oh my God. All right, well, as I thought.
02:07:48 Speaker_04
I did it in college, all of it. Never missed any homework in college. Do you have homework in class?
02:07:52 Speaker_08
Yeah, no, not really.
02:07:54 Speaker_04
You have papers, yeah. Well, papers. I have so many papers. That's homework.
02:07:57 Speaker_08
It's not really because papers is like a 30-year grade.
02:08:00 Speaker_04
You have homework, you have a syllabus, you got to go home and read sections. There's a lot of reading. That's your homework.
02:08:05 Speaker_08
That's the, okay.
02:08:06 Speaker_04
Your coursework.
02:08:07 Speaker_08
Yeah, sure.
02:08:07 Speaker_04
Fine.
02:08:08 Speaker_08
Sure, okay, so you didn't do homework and that's clear.
02:08:10 Speaker_04
No, I did some of my homework and really hoped I would test well. All right, I love you.
02:08:14 Speaker_08
Love you.
02:08:31 Speaker_04
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02:08:45 Speaker_04
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