S2 Episode 6: Little Pine AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Missing & Murdered: Finding Cleo

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Episode: S2 Episode 6: Little Pine

Author: CBC
Duration: 00:49:33

Episode Shownotes

A brief encounter with someone who knew Cleo perhaps better than anyone else just before her death reveals crucial details. Connecting new facts about her life leads the investigation to a world far from where Cleo died, back to Little Pine First Nation. For transcripts of this series, please visit:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/missing-murdered-season-2-finding-cleo-transcripts-listen-1.6733352

Summary

In S2 Episode 6: Little Pine of 'Missing & Murdered: Finding Cleo,' the investigation into Cleo Semeginis's tragic death at the age of 13 illuminates deep-rooted issues within Indigenous families, particularly around adoption trauma. Through conversations with family members and community leaders from Little Pine First Nation, the episode explores the historical context of Cleo's life, her upbringing, and the systemic challenges faced by Indigenous children. The emotional consequences of her adoption and the quest for understanding and reconciliation are central themes as her family grapples with loss and seeks to reconnect with their cultural roots.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (S2 Episode 6: Little Pine) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_00
Before John F Kennedy's famous decade was out, before Eagle had set down on the surface of the moon, before NASA had rescued the crew of Apollo 13, they had already set their sights on a new vehicle. Space Shuttle.

00:00:15 Speaker_00
I'm Kevin Fong and in this new podcast we're bringing you the incredible story of the birth of the Space Shuttle era, as told by the people who built and flew it. From the ACAST Creator Network, 16 Sunsets. This is a CBC Podcast.

00:00:38 Speaker_05
I'm Connie Walker and this is Missing and Murdered, Finding Cleo. An investigative podcast by CBC News. Previously on Missing and Murdered.

00:00:50 Speaker_05
So yeah we're just a few minutes away from Mrs. Madonia's house and we're gonna knock on her door just to see if she's home. Let her know what we're doing and see if she's interested in talking to us.

00:01:00 Speaker_03
You have arrived at your destination.

00:01:13 Speaker_05
Hi, I'm looking for Leigh Madonia. Hi Leigh, my name is Connie Walker. I'm a reporter with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I'm here because I'm working with a family in Canada and they've been looking for their sibling, a young girl named Cleo.

00:01:34 Speaker_05
And we think that it might be your daughter. Mrs. Madonia doesn't want to do an interview, but she tells me that yes, Cleo Simeganis from Saskatchewan was her daughter. She and I talk about Cleo for 17 minutes.

00:02:00 Speaker_05
It's surreal to be inside the house where Cleo lived, to talk to her adoptive mother, who loved her, and to hear the truth about how Cleo died.

00:02:11 Speaker_05
And even though I leave her house with the answer to the question that we all want to know, I come out feeling more unsettled than ever.

00:02:20 Speaker_06
Wow. Yeah. Just maybe hold on a minute.

00:02:24 Speaker_05
Okay. Sure.

00:02:25 Speaker_06
We're going to pull around the corner and reposition.

00:02:27 Speaker_04
Okay.

00:02:28 Speaker_05
Okay. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. You okay? Yeah. No, I'm okay. Um, I'm assuming we're driving away, right? But not, well, not because she's, um, Not interested in talking, but because she's not interested in talking right now.

00:02:52 Speaker_02
What did she say?

00:02:53 Speaker_05
So I knocked on the door and she, I didn't think anyone was home because it took a long time for her to come, but then I could hear someone and she opened the door. And then I said, my name is Connie and I'm a reporter from CBC.

00:03:06 Speaker_05
But she said, come right in. And I said, I'm working with a family. And I think as soon as I said, you know, who was adopted from Saskatchewan in the 70s, she kind of started nodding her head. And I said, and they've been looking for their sister.

00:03:20 Speaker_05
And we think that it's, It's, you know, that their sister, the sister they're looking for is your daughter, Cleo. And she said, yes, it was my daughter, Cleo, but she took her life. She took her life. She took her life. Cleo wasn't murdered.

00:03:44 Speaker_05
The story her family has always believed is wrong. But the truth is equally tragic. when she was just 13 years old. Cleo Semeginis took her own life. We finally know where Cleo is and how she died.

00:04:04 Speaker_05
But my conversation with Mrs. Madonia makes me realize that this story is far from over. Why did she do it? What happened in the weeks, months and years before Cleo died that led to her feeling so hopeless?

00:04:21 Speaker_05
Mrs. Madonia said the way Cleo was taken from her biological mother was very traumatic and difficult for her to overcome. She said, I knew one of her brothers was in Pennsylvania and that she said, I tried to get them together.

00:04:37 Speaker_05
The government of Saskatchewan worked with an American adoption agency to bring Cleo to New Jersey. And when she was going through a hard time, Mrs. Madonia asked the agency if Cleo and Johnny could be reunited.

00:04:51 Speaker_05
She thought maybe if Cleo could see Johnny, it would help her deal with whatever she was going through. And they wouldn't help facilitate that.

00:04:59 Speaker_02
She knew Johnny was there?

00:05:01 Speaker_05
She knew Johnny was in Pennsylvania and she tried to get them together because she thought that could potentially help. Because it was a lot, I imagine, for Cleo to be dealing with. But the agency refused. Oh my God, and Spaulding wouldn't let them.

00:05:20 Speaker_05
Yeah, it's just heartbreaking to imagine they could have reconnected in their new lives and somehow that could have been the support they both needed. Mrs. Madonia is still angry about that.

00:05:40 Speaker_05
But mostly, she was incredibly kind and gracious, much more open to talking to a reporter than I ever imagined. Oh my goodness, how did she see, like was she shaken talking about it? I said I'm sorry to bring this up and she said no.

00:05:56 Speaker_05
She was so lovely and she said no. She said I'm sorry that, you know, she said I can't talk right now. She said I'm... I know you've come all this way, she said, but I'm just not feeling well.

00:06:06 Speaker_05
I've had some health issues and she said I'm really having trouble focusing, but she's interested and available and wants to talk and I mentioned how the siblings might want to come and she's, you know, she said she could look for photos.

00:06:21 Speaker_05
Mrs. Madonia says she doesn't talk about Cleo much because it's still painful. I didn't want to push her for more answers. I was grateful she even answered the door.

00:06:31 Speaker_05
She suggested that I get in touch with her again in a few weeks, once she's feeling better. We leave her house stunned and filled with more questions than ever.

00:06:43 Speaker_05
Mrs. Madonia told me that Cleo had attempted to go back to Saskatchewan, but she didn't say how. Did she try to hitchhike? Was that news story we read about a teenager being assaulted at all related to Cleo?

00:06:58 Speaker_05
If not, what would lead such a young girl to take her own life? Was there any doubt that it was a suicide? If not, why did police do such a comprehensive investigation? What is in that thick police file?

00:07:13 Speaker_05
Why does her biological family believe Cleo was murdered? questions are swirling in my mind and I keep going back to something Mrs. Madonia said to me before I left. She said Cleo was a bright kid who got a raw deal.

00:07:32 Speaker_05
I keep thinking about that even months later, because it sounds like she thinks that Cleo was just unlucky. That the trauma she went through that may have contributed to her death was accidental. I'm not suggesting she's wrong.

00:07:47 Speaker_05
She obviously knew her daughter Cleo and what she went through before she died. But I wonder if it's much more complicated than even she realizes. Because Cleo's death is not an anomaly.

00:07:59 Speaker_05
Death by suicide is an all-too-common outcome for children who were taken during the Sixty Scoops. I don't fault Mrs. Madonia if she doesn't know the truth about Canadian history.

00:08:13 Speaker_05
She may not know how tragically predictable her daughter's life and death were. What happened to Cleo, what happened to Johnny, what happened to April, Annette, Mark and Christine wasn't a matter of luck.

00:08:28 Speaker_05
Instead, their devastating experiences as children, as adoptees, are echoed in Indigenous communities across the country. Some say these tragic experiences are a direct result of a system designed to quote, deal with the Indian problem in Canada.

00:08:48 Speaker_05
First in residential schools, then in the 60s scoop, a system of oppression that many say continues to fail some of the most vulnerable people in Canadian society, Indigenous children.

00:09:02 Speaker_05
Children who are more than twice as likely as other Canadian children to live in poverty. Children who are four times more likely to become involved in the child welfare system. Children who are seven times more likely to take their own lives.

00:09:20 Speaker_05
We now know that Cleo's death was a suicide, not murder. But we still don't know why. What led a 13-year-old girl to take her own life? Who was accountable for her death?

00:09:34 Speaker_05
Why were Cleo and all of her siblings taken from their biological mother in the first place? To find out the truth, we need to go back to the beginning. Back to where it all began. Back to Little Pine, Saskatchewan.

00:09:53 Speaker_05
It's a few weeks later, and Marnie and I are back on the road. Somewhere quite different than the urban sprawl of Marlton, New Jersey. We're in rural Saskatchewan, on a gravel road that leads to the Little Pine First Nation. Little Pine Gas Bar.

00:10:09 Speaker_05
No, not the school. This Cree community is where Cleo was from and some of her family is still here. We're here to find out as much about Cleo's early life as we possibly can.

00:10:23 Speaker_05
Right now we're looking for the school because we're late for a meeting with the chief. We brought a camera guy with us. Don is from Saskatchewan but he doesn't know his way around the reserve either.

00:10:34 Speaker_08
Hey, how's it going? Where's the school? A few minutes later, we arrive at a building that looks like the school. But school's out and the parking lot is empty.

00:10:45 Speaker_09
Yeah, so we're going — he's going to meet us inside?

00:11:01 Speaker_05
Next door to the school is a trailer and a few houses. The man with the weed whacker is working on the lawns out front.

00:11:09 Speaker_06
We're looking for Wayne. Is he here? We're looking for Wayne.

00:11:17 Speaker_05
What is this here? It's a gorgeous summer day. The sun is shining, the grass is green, and the big prairie sky is bright blue, dotted with white fluffy clouds. I'm from Saskatchewan, so maybe I'm biased, but it's beautiful here.

00:11:35 Speaker_05
Little Pine looks a lot like my reserve. Actually it looks like a lot of the reserves I've been to in Saskatchewan. Dusty gravel roads, small prefab houses and a few trailers. One of those trailers is a makeshift band office.

00:11:50 Speaker_05
A temporary shelter while the new one is being built. We're outside only a few minutes when a black truck pulls up.

00:11:59 Speaker_06
Hi Wayne. I'm Connie from CBC. Good morning. Good morning, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.

00:12:04 Speaker_05
Next to Wayne in the truck is an elderly man named Gavin Baptiste.

00:12:08 Speaker_06
Hi Gavin, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. How are you doing? Good.

00:12:11 Speaker_09
We should go to Earl's house. It's quieter here. I don't have all this noise. No, I like the noise here. It'll be easier at Earl's house. It's a nice quiet place.

00:12:18 Speaker_06
Can I ride with you in your truck?

00:12:21 Speaker_05
Wayne isn't just the chief on Little Pine. He's also related to Cleo and her siblings. He's her first cousin and they grew up together here on the reserve. So I don't think I've ever been to Little Pine before. Where are you from? Okanese. Okanese? Yeah.

00:12:37 Speaker_05
That's way... Way down south. This is a typical conversation whenever First Nations people meet. Where are you from? Who are your parents? And if that's not enough information, who are your grandparents? It usually doesn't take long to find a connection.

00:12:53 Speaker_05
My dad is Howard Cameron. I don't know if you guys knew him.

00:12:57 Speaker_10
Oh yeah, yeah. I used to golf with him lots.

00:13:01 Speaker_09
Really?

00:13:02 Speaker_10
Yeah.

00:13:02 Speaker_09
You're close, eh?

00:13:03 Speaker_10
This is Blue Hill. This is the highest spot around for a long ways. Oh, these Indians put my teepee up finally.

00:13:10 Speaker_09
Oh, man, it's crooked.

00:13:13 Speaker_10
Well, one of them's from Bombay here.

00:13:14 Speaker_09
That's why it's crooked.

00:13:17 Speaker_05
We pull up to a blue house with a big white canvas teepee out front.

00:13:25 Speaker_06
I suppose you don't talk Cree either, eh? No, I wish I did. Do you guys both do?

00:13:30 Speaker_05
There's a small circular door at the front of the tipi. We go inside and meet the guys who have just finished putting it up. Can I come in?

00:13:39 Speaker_10
Didn't knock. Nice to meet you, I'm Connie.

00:13:44 Speaker_06
Sorry, what's your name? Paul.

00:13:46 Speaker_05
Paul. Connie.

00:13:46 Speaker_10
Nice to meet you. His Cree name is Wapuxis.

00:13:50 Speaker_05
Wapuxis. Did you guys all speak Cree? Yep.

00:13:52 Speaker_10
Are you going to have a pipe today? Wayne wanted a tipi erected today so that we can have a pipe ceremony before we begin our interviews with Cleo's family. hurtful emotionally, harmful.

00:14:27 Speaker_10
I just want them to let it go in a good way, you know, so that there's no negative effect after. So just ask the grandfathers to help them, that they heal.

00:14:39 Speaker_05
Wayne says that the pipe ceremony will also help us in doing this podcast.

00:14:44 Speaker_10
Then you'll know what gives us strength, you know, what gives us purpose. What is it that First Nations people hang on to that we don't want to become brown white men? There is a reason, you know, and it's a God-given reason and we hang on to that.

00:14:57 Speaker_10
So for you to do your series, you'll have a better understanding of what it is that we have and we want to keep. And we understand you well enough, but nobody's ever turned around to try and understand us. So understanding has to go both ways.

00:15:14 Speaker_09
I think a lot of the stories that we talk about should be told.

00:15:19 Speaker_05
Gavin is an elder in the community, but he's also kind of like the community's historian. Did you ever know Lillian's kids?

00:15:27 Speaker_09
Yeah, yeah. I knew Lillian. I knew Samson. I knew the girls. Samson is in Pennsylvania. Last I talked to Samson was 1981.

00:15:37 Speaker_05
So when Gavin says Samson, he's actually talking about Johnny, Cleo's brother who we met in Pennsylvania. The family in Little Pine call him by his middle name, Samson or Sammy.

00:15:48 Speaker_09
He must be about Wayne's age.

00:15:50 Speaker_05
Gavin's lived here forever and he knows all of the families and a lot of the secrets. We've been wondering for months about Cleo's biological father. So we asked Gavin what he knows about it.

00:16:02 Speaker_09
Gavin says he knows who Cleo's father is. He's a man named Sidney Nicotine.

00:16:22 Speaker_05
He says Sidney lives on a reserve a few hours away and he'll try to get us his number. I wonder, was Sidney a part of Cleo's life in Saskatchewan? What did he know about where she ended up and what happened to her?

00:16:35 Speaker_05
Can he help us access some of the government documents that might have more information about why she was taken from Little Pine?

00:16:42 Speaker_10
Oh, Alex is here. He's the one that's going to do the pipe ceremony. We'll sit with him and I'll introduce you. Sure.

00:16:55 Speaker_08
Alex Kennedy is Connie Walker. Nice to meet you.

00:17:03 Speaker_10
Alex is my uncle. I had asked him to come here and to come and pray with us. So I had asked him to bring his pipe and but the boys are going to make a fire first so we'll have some coal there. Okay.

00:17:18 Speaker_05
Alex starts to get ready for the pipe ceremony. He lights a little fire in the grass in front of him and starts to burn a braid of sweetgrass in it. He's laid out a small blanket. On top of it is a wooden box with a red velvet lining.

00:17:33 Speaker_05
On one side of the box is a small fan made of eagle feathers, tied with leather at the bottom. On the other side is another braid of sweetgrass. Right next to his box is his long wooden pipe and a pouch of tobacco.

00:17:47 Speaker_05
Alex says once he's ready to lift the pipe we have to stop recording but until then we can keep rolling. He wants to explain why we're here today.

00:17:56 Speaker_08
One of the most important lodges in our culture is the tipi because that's where our mothers have children, that's where they raise children. And that needs to be a holy place.

00:18:16 Speaker_08
And what he's going to be sharing through CBC is something that's very important, sacred, and we need to have the Pipe lead that documentary.

00:18:31 Speaker_05
It's so nice to be here. We smudge, and the smell of the sweetgrass reminds me of growing up on my reserve, of spending time at feasts and powwows. Wayne is telling Alex that he just went to visit his aunt Annabelle.

00:18:53 Speaker_05
Annabelle, or Marlene as she's sometimes called, is Lillian's sister. We heard that she got a letter from Cleo after she was adopted, begging to come get her. I'm disappointed to hear that she doesn't want to talk to us.

00:19:07 Speaker_08
I forgot how much I missed hearing Cree.

00:19:25 Speaker_05
I think about Cleo. This is the language she grew up hearing and speaking. Did she miss it when she moved away? Did she miss the culture, her family, the community she lost? Is that why she took her own life?

00:19:42 Speaker_05
I can't help but wonder what Cleo's life would have been like if she never left Little Pine. Would she still be here, speaking Cree with her cousin Wayne? I think about Cleo's siblings, and I also think of their mother, Lillian.

00:20:00 Speaker_05
I want to know what happened to Lillian. Why were all of her children taken away? What happened to her after they were gone? I hope Wayne can help fill in some of those answers.

00:20:12 Speaker_10
He lifts the pipe for us, and our prayers are with that pipe, with that smoke that goes up to the Creator. We're praying that things will be better for our young people, that things will be better for your people, that we'll understand each other.

00:20:50 Speaker_08
I'd like to be able to walk into a cut knife restaurant and not experience any racism towards me. But we all know that racism is alive and well. And we need to educate each other as to how to stop that.

00:21:15 Speaker_08
And that's what I'll be praying for when I lift the pipe here. That real reconciliation will take place. Okay, that's good.

00:21:32 Speaker_05
Alex gives the signal to stop recording. He's ready to lift the pipe. So I turn my recorder off. After the ceremony, Wayne is ready to talk. He begins by telling me what it was like to grow up here on Little Pine.

00:21:49 Speaker_10
I used to set the snares all over there and go for them. First thing in the morning before you go to school, before you even eat, you gotta run and get the rabbit snares.

00:21:59 Speaker_05
It reminds me of what Johnny said about growing up here.

00:22:02 Speaker_07
I always tell people, the first eight years of my life I was Indian, I lived on a reservation. Food was pouring water down one hole and getting a gopher in the other end. That was lunch, you know. Snaring rabbits. We ate it and everything.

00:22:17 Speaker_07
In the morning and evening. It was food.

00:22:19 Speaker_05
Wayne and Johnny are just a few years apart. And he calls him Sammy too. Wayne says that he and Sammy and Cleo were raised together like siblings.

00:22:29 Speaker_10
Cleo was a little bit younger but she played more with my sister.

00:22:33 Speaker_05
What was she like? Do you remember anything about Cleo?

00:22:35 Speaker_10
She was just like all of us. Laughing, friendly and always outgoing. She was three years younger, I think, or three and a half years younger.

00:22:47 Speaker_10
So she played with my sister more because us boys were already out doing horseback, going swimming, rafting on the river. So it was different for them. But, you know, she was a part of the family.

00:22:59 Speaker_05
Wayne says his grandmother Mariah raised him and his siblings and also looked after Lillian's kids. Sometimes they lived here together on the reserve. But when they were older, they lived in a small town nearby.

00:23:11 Speaker_10
We lived in Paynton quite a bit for a while, at least two, three years that I remember.

00:23:18 Speaker_05
Were Sammy and Cleo and the other kids there with you for most of that time, or part of it?

00:23:24 Speaker_10
Quite a bit of the time. They were there quite a bit of the time. And my grandma looked after all of us. It was a really good... Living with my grandmother was nice. It was a very good, safe home. She was very loving, very capable.

00:23:38 Speaker_10
We were never mad that we were so crowded. We were just happy, just happy being around our grandmother because she was everything to us. We were never hungry and we never felt afraid or unwanted.

00:23:51 Speaker_05
It was in Paynton where Wayne remembers the day there was a knock at the door. He was about 11 years old.

00:23:57 Speaker_10
And my grandmother went to open the door and I didn't know. All I heard was something about Lillian's children.

00:24:08 Speaker_10
And all of a sudden, they just walked in, pushed her out of the way, and started taking the children out, putting them in the backseat of these cars. And I guess probably she didn't know what was going on. She was trying to stop them.

00:24:23 Speaker_10
And they just pushed her out of the way.

00:24:25 Speaker_05
Your grandmother.

00:24:26 Speaker_10
Yeah, they just pushed her out of the way. And then they just took off in the cars. But it was very, very scary, you know. My grandmother, she cried lots that day. I remember standing upstairs at the window because They just left, right?

00:24:58 Speaker_10
And all you hear is car doors slamming and I was sitting out the window and all I could see is Cleo looking backward, crying and, you know, away they went. I never saw them again.

00:25:09 Speaker_05
She was crying and she was upset?

00:25:11 Speaker_10
Yeah, yeah. Because it's the same thing with her, like, what do you do when complete strangers come and grab you, throw you in a car and push your grandma out of the way and they take you away? Like, imagine them, they were younger, right?

00:25:23 Speaker_10
This is all they've ever known. Just not, I could never understand how such a thing could happen, especially in such a nice safe home, which my grandmother always gave us. Why was it necessary to take her grandchildren away from her?

00:25:46 Speaker_05
Wayne's memory about the day the children were taken is different than the one that Wilma told us. And it's also different than the one that Johnny remembers. Are they each remembering it differently?

00:25:57 Speaker_05
Or were Lillian's children apprehended more than once? Wayne says that was the last time he saw any of his cousins. For years after, he was afraid to open the door, worried that he and his siblings would be next.

00:26:14 Speaker_05
He had no idea why his cousins were taken or what happened to them. Like all of her biological family, Wayne believed that Cleo had been murdered while trying to hitchhike back to Saskatchewan after being adopted into Arkansas.

00:26:29 Speaker_10
That's all I ever heard was that she had been killed. And then to find out that they have asked for information and that they're not given information. I don't know what kind of law that is that makes that happen.

00:26:54 Speaker_10
Even criminals in jail, when they die, the family gets to hear what happened to them and how they died. But for some reason, Indians don't even have the right to know how their relative died or where they were buried or what happened.

00:27:10 Speaker_05
We told Johnny and Christine what Mrs. Madonia told us. But I'm not sure if the news of Cleo's suicide has made it to Little Pine. And I'm not sure if I should be the one to tell Wayne the truth.

00:27:23 Speaker_05
When we were in New Jersey, we actually got to speak to Cleo's adopted mom, just very briefly. But she told us about how Cleo died.

00:27:34 Speaker_05
It feels terrible being the person to have to, I don't know if they've told you or not, if the siblings have or if that's something you even want to know.

00:27:42 Speaker_10
Yeah, nobody has told me anything, but I'd like to know. I need to know.

00:27:49 Speaker_05
Do you, I mean, is it, is it okay if I'm the person that tells you or do you?

00:27:52 Speaker_10
It's okay. You know, it's, I need to know. It's truth. That's all I need to know.

00:28:00 Speaker_05
Well, she told us that she took her own life. She was 13.

00:28:11 Speaker_10
When you don't know what you're doing, it's not a person's fault.

00:28:25 Speaker_05
That's... Do you want to take a minute?

00:28:30 Speaker_10
It's okay. I'll deal with it after.

00:28:35 Speaker_05
I can only imagine what Cleo's family feels when they hear this news. It's shocking. And there's still so much we don't know. What led Cleo to take such a drastic step? Her friends in New Jersey didn't give any indication that she was unhappy.

00:28:52 Speaker_05
In fact, they said the opposite. Was any part of the story that her biological family heard true? We're still hoping to see what's in that thick police report into her death. But for now, Wayne wants to show us how Cleo lived.

00:29:08 Speaker_05
And he takes us on a tour of Little Pine.

00:29:12 Speaker_10
So this is partly where you grew up?

00:29:19 Speaker_05
Wayne shows us the foundation of the old grey house they lived in with their grandmother.

00:29:25 Speaker_10
Down here is David's beach. There's a river that goes right down here.

00:29:28 Speaker_05
And the river that he and Johnny used to play in.

00:29:30 Speaker_10
That's our swimming spot over there. Look at that gopher. I've never known a gopher to climb a stump. Look, he's sitting on that little stump.

00:29:37 Speaker_05
Oh yeah.

00:29:39 Speaker_10
Pretty sharp gopher, eh?

00:29:41 Speaker_05
It's obvious that Wayne loves this community. And now that he knows the truth about Cleo, Wayne seems even more determined that Johnny, or Sammy, should come home.

00:29:54 Speaker_10
He's living in Pennsylvania, and why is it that he's never wanted to come back if he knows who we are? Because somebody told him he wasn't wanted? Somebody told him that we didn't care about him? Nobody misses him?

00:30:07 Speaker_10
I don't want him to live with that lie, to live with that fear, that doubt, you know, to feel that bad about his family. I need him to know that he has to come home.

00:30:25 Speaker_05
I hear the emotion in Wayne's voice and I think of Johnny, Christine, even Mrs. Madonia. In our pursuit of the truth about Clio, we've unearthed so many painful memories for so many people.

00:30:41 Speaker_05
So I ask Wayne a question I've struggled with in all of my reporting about our communities. So the reason we're doing this is because Christine asked us for help to try to find Clio.

00:30:55 Speaker_05
And it's uncovering some really hard truths, I think, for them and for the family in general. Is it worth it to do that? Is it important to tell this story?

00:31:12 Speaker_10
It's important. For the brothers and sisters that are left, they need to know. They need to know. But they also need to hear from us. They're not going to find those answers out there. They're not going to find those answers with their adopted family.

00:31:30 Speaker_10
The things that are troubling them are from their original family they were born into, and they need to come back to that. The very bottom line is they need to know that we miss them over here, that we love them over here, that we care for them.

00:31:44 Speaker_10
That's their greatest fear. Why was I out here? Maybe I wasn't wanted over there. That's their biggest fear. That's why Sammy's staying in Pennsylvania. He's afraid to come home and find out that he was right. That's the biggest fear.

00:32:00 Speaker_10
That nobody cared for him, nobody loved him. His biggest fear is to find out that what he's been told and what he's believed all his life is true. And it's not true. I need him to come home.

00:32:48 Speaker_03
In the dry states of the Southwest, there's a group that's been denied a basic human right. In the Navajo Nation today, a third of our households don't have running water. But that's not something they chose for themselves.

00:33:01 Speaker_03
Can the Navajo people reclaim their right to water and contend with the government's legacy of control and neglect?

00:33:08 Speaker_02
Our water, our future! Our water, our future!

00:33:12 Speaker_03
That's in the next season of Reclaimed, the lifeblood of Navajo Nation. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

00:33:29 Speaker_05
We started this podcast with a Cree phrase, kigwai ka'agawaktamik. It means longing and wishing for. But spending time with Wayne makes me realize it wasn't just the ones who went away, who were left longing.

00:33:49 Speaker_05
Wayne wants so badly for Johnny to come back to Saskatchewan. But every time we broach the subject with him, Johnny is adamant he doesn't want to go back. But he's still nostalgic about his childhood home.

00:34:03 Speaker_07
In fact, I was going through Google Earth the other day, and I could see the town where we lived in in Payton, Saskatchewan.

00:34:08 Speaker_05
Did you recognize it?

00:34:09 Speaker_07
Oh, yeah. You know, some stores not there, the grain elevator wasn't there, but the post office was still there. Funny part is, I remember they said, if you ever want to send a mail home, 151, P.O. Box 151. I don't know why I remember that.

00:34:26 Speaker_05
Like when you were adopted or when you were in foster homes, you would send mail home?

00:34:30 Speaker_07
Yeah, but I never got any response.

00:34:32 Speaker_05
Johnny has told us about some of what he went through as a child, but I don't fully understand how difficult it was for him until I read his ward file. The ward file is that record kept by social services.

00:34:47 Speaker_05
It outlines every interaction they have with families and children. Johnny requested his from the Saskatchewan government a few months ago. When it arrives in the mail, he sends us a copy of it and says it's okay for us to share. The file is huge.

00:35:05 Speaker_05
It's 75 pages long. It's been redacted to protect the identities of his immediate family, so about half the pages are just blank. But even so, it's incredibly detailed and gives us such insight into Johnny and Cleo's childhood.

00:35:26 Speaker_01
Johnny Sampson was born on December 11, 1961 in Maidstone, Saskatchewan. He is of Indian racial origin and Protestant religion. He weighed 8 pounds, 14 ounces at birth, and developed at a normal rate.

00:35:41 Speaker_05
The ward file was written by the social workers who worked for Saskatchewan Social Services, so it's important to keep in mind this is a one-sided account of their impressions of this family.

00:35:53 Speaker_05
For the podcast, we've asked colleagues to read their words. The documents tell us a lot about Johnny, but they also paint a picture of Lillian and her struggles as a young mother.

00:36:05 Speaker_01
Of Cree origin, she completed grade 8 in school. She is 5 feet 7 inches tall, weighs 130 pounds, with brown hair, brown eyes, and an olive complexion. She is quite neat, attractive woman, and was known to be a bright person intellectually.

00:36:22 Speaker_01
Her interests are beadwork, sewing, swimming, reading.

00:36:26 Speaker_05
Christine wrote in her story that social workers suspected abuse because she and her siblings had blue birthmarks that looked like bruises. But the documents in Johnny's ward file tell a different story.

00:36:39 Speaker_05
Johnny was adopted when he was 13, but social services became involved in his family much earlier, when he was just five years old.

00:36:48 Speaker_01
September 1967. Approached our department regarding placing children.

00:36:53 Speaker_05
She felt she could not adequately care for... The file says that in 1967, Lillian voluntarily asked social services to take her children. They weren't taken because of blue birthmarks. They were first taken because Lillian needed help.

00:37:10 Speaker_04
She approached the Department of Social Services, expressed her failure to meet her children's needs. She had, apparently, placed the children with other family members for appreciable periods during their infancy and early childhood.

00:37:25 Speaker_05
It doesn't say for how long her kids were in care or when they were returned to her.

00:37:30 Speaker_04
Johnny's mother assumed a parenting role at an early age. She found it most difficult to cope with the increasing responsibility as each of her children were born.

00:37:40 Speaker_05
Lillian was 17 when Johnny was born. By the age of 23, she was a single mother with three kids and another one on the way.

00:37:49 Speaker_01
that children were apprehended from their home on above date. Recording outlining reasons and circumstances of the situation will be forthcoming from Protection Worker.

00:38:01 Speaker_05
According to the accounts of different social workers in the file, sometimes Lillian asked for help, and other times, her kids were taken from her.

00:38:10 Speaker_01
Complaints regarding the neglect of the children, lack of parental controls, irregular school attendance, mother caring for children, tense, nervous, and hostile feelings towards children.

00:38:23 Speaker_05
The file also says that from ages 1 to 5, Johnny lived with his grandmother, and based on his and Wayne's memories, Cleo was there too. I wonder, if Lillian was having trouble looking after her kids, why didn't they just stay with their grandmother?

00:38:42 Speaker_05
The documents say that Mariah had heart condition, but she was obviously well enough to look after Wayne and his siblings. Why wasn't that an option? What was going on in Lillian's life that made her sometimes turn to social services for help?

00:38:58 Speaker_04
The file gives us some clues. Though she loved all her children very much, she gradually began to realize that a family of children was more than she could care for.

00:39:09 Speaker_04
She frequently absented herself from home, leaving the children either by themselves or with relatives.

00:39:15 Speaker_05
Then an intriguing detail about Lillian's state of mind.

00:39:20 Speaker_01
is in good general health, but had a four-day observation period in hospital for depression prior to Crystal's birth in 1971.

00:39:29 Speaker_05
Crystal is actually Christine. The file says that Lillian had to be hospitalized for depression when she was pregnant with her. There are so many other heartbreaking details in Johnny's file.

00:39:41 Speaker_05
On October 20, 1971, when he was nine years old, he and Cleo were in the hospital to get their tonsils out. The file says that Lillian called for information.

00:39:52 Speaker_01
Information on how her children were progressing.

00:39:55 Speaker_05
Lillian was told.

00:39:56 Speaker_01
That the children were ready for discharge.

00:39:58 Speaker_04
And she said she would be there to pick up her children immediately.

00:40:03 Speaker_05
She would be there to pick up her children immediately.

00:40:07 Speaker_04
Today is October 26, 1971, and the children have still not been picked up.

00:40:14 Speaker_05
Johnny told me about other times when his mother left him and his siblings alone.

00:40:20 Speaker_07
I was put in charge and she'd go out drinking and she never came back most of the time. When I was younger, I didn't realize, you know, there was a problem she had. That's why we never got along. So I have no reason to go back, anyway.

00:40:36 Speaker_07
But I do miss my grandma, that's the most thing. She was always there for us.

00:40:42 Speaker_05
I mean, I can't imagine what it was like being a kid and having to look after your other siblings, but you were so young yourself.

00:40:48 Speaker_07
At the time, I didn't know. I was just doing what I was told. But when you're that young, you don't realize. I didn't know any better, I guess.

00:41:02 Speaker_04
His mother's frequent open rejection of him conflicted with her expressions of love and acceptance.

00:41:07 Speaker_05
Johnny says that if his mother was gone for too long, he would go out and try to find her. Why would you go looking for her?

00:41:16 Speaker_07
She was never coming back. I mean, when you're feeding the kids and changing the kids' diapers and stuff. I mean, you want her to come back. I knew where she went.

00:41:27 Speaker_07
I knew where she went, but she never... You just don't think at the time that your mother doesn't love you and she's got more important things to do than take care of the kids. I said I'd come to grips with it.

00:41:38 Speaker_05
When he left to look for Lillian, Johnny had to leave Cleo in charge of their youngest siblings.

00:41:45 Speaker_07
I know she was afraid because I'd leave her there in the middle of the night like my mother did and I felt bad. But I always came back though.

00:41:55 Speaker_06
Did she ever ask you not to go?

00:41:57 Speaker_07
Yeah. I always came back without my mother.

00:42:05 Speaker_05
I understand why Johnny and Cleo were so close. They were there for each other when no one else was.

00:42:13 Speaker_07
I'm not familiar with North Battleford, South Battleford. There's a, you got this bridge you got to go across, the Saskatchewan River. And I'd have to, I'd go at nighttime so there's nobody there anyway.

00:42:23 Speaker_07
I'd find her and she'd be drinking and she wouldn't come back till the next day.

00:42:31 Speaker_05
I didn't really understand Johnny when he said that he wanted to be adopted or that he didn't mind being in foster homes until I'm at the bridge that he walked across looking for his mother. It's an old iron bridge.

00:42:46 Speaker_05
It runs about a kilometre across the North Saskatchewan River from South Battleford to North Battleford. It's closed to vehicles now, but walking across the bridge, I imagine a little boy out here at night, in the winter, looking for his mother.

00:43:10 Speaker_05
And I understand why Johnny was glad to leave, and why he's so reluctant to come back.

00:43:16 Speaker_07
You're eight, nine years old, taking care of these kids. I was there for them most of the time. My mother wasn't. Lillian wasn't there. Like I said, I've since forgiven myself for feeling certain ways about her.

00:43:27 Speaker_05
I'm amazed by Johnny. He has incredible strength and resilience to endure such a difficult childhood.

00:43:34 Speaker_07
When you're that young, you don't realize she had a problem or whatever, whatever, you know, she was dealing with. She never confided in us about what was going on in her life.

00:43:49 Speaker_05
I can't help but wonder how Lillian's time in residential school affected her as a parent. We don't know much about her experience but Christine is trying to get her records.

00:44:01 Speaker_05
We're hoping that they will help us understand more about what was going on in her life before her children were taken for the last time.

00:44:09 Speaker_04
With frequent and persistent abandonment of the children her own realization she could not provide for their needs. The children were taken into care and subsequently made permanent wards on September 29, 1972.

00:44:25 Speaker_05
Johnny's ward file describes the day that he and Cleo and all of their siblings went to the courthouse in North Battleford. The day they were all made permanent wards of the province of Saskatchewan.

00:44:39 Speaker_04
Johnny was quiet and showed no emotion at all. He said he didn't care if he returned or went home with his mother. During the visit, after the hearing with his mom, he sat and read, paying no attention to her whatsoever.

00:44:55 Speaker_04
However, he was very good with his younger siblings, looking after them and getting them drinks of water, etc.

00:45:04 Speaker_05
Wayne wonders if Lillian actually knew what would happen when she asked the government for help. Did Lillian understand that when they became permanent wards, her children would be put up for adoption and she would lose them forever?

00:45:19 Speaker_10
Did she know what she was doing when she gave her children up? What kind of papers was she signing? I'd like to see the paperwork. I'd like to know what happened. I'm sure Sammy would like to know that too.

00:45:34 Speaker_05
Johnny's board file continues documenting his life in various foster homes while waiting for an adoption. The social workers note that he asks about his siblings but it doesn't say he gets to see any of them until June of 1974.

00:45:48 Speaker_01
A worker drove Johnny over for a visit with his sister.

00:45:51 Speaker_05
Her name is blacked out in the file but Johnny says it was Cleo. It was one of the last times he saw her.

00:45:59 Speaker_01
He took a personal hand-drawn picture, which he was very appreciative of, commenting to Worker that Johnny was a good artist. They showed Johnny all over the farm, and they kept up a running conversation during the entire visit.

00:46:12 Speaker_01
They looked extremely happy to see each other, and there was no shyness at all. Worker has pointed out to both Johnny and his natural sister that they can communicate together by letters.

00:46:23 Speaker_05
Learning more about what they endured together as children reminds me of the promise Johnny made to Cleo the last time he saw her. She was crying and upset, and he told her he would find her.

00:46:38 Speaker_05
I can't help but think of what Mrs. Madonia said about how she tried to connect Cleo with Johnny.

00:46:46 Speaker_01
Worker is hopeful that they will be able to visit each other occasionally, depending on the feelings of each of the new families.

00:46:57 Speaker_05
Why couldn't they keep in touch? From what we can piece together, it seems that Cleo was adopted and sent to New Jersey not long after this visit. Why did she end up so far away? Would it have been easier for her if she had stayed closer to home?

00:47:13 Speaker_05
We don't know these details because we don't have access to Cleo's ward file. It's not something that her siblings can get, only a biological parent. I think back to my brief conversation with Mrs. Madonia.

00:47:27 Speaker_05
She said Cleo never got over the way she was taken from her mother. But unlike Johnny, Cleo tried to come back to Saskatchewan. Why? Mrs. Madonia said that she tried to connect Cleo with Johnny. Would that have made the difference for Cleo?

00:47:44 Speaker_05
I don't know much about her life in New Jersey, but I imagine being adopted into a completely different world would be a difficult transition for any child. What was Cleo going through?

00:47:56 Speaker_05
I hope once Mrs. Madonia is feeling better, she'll talk to us and help us understand more about Cleo's life. And I hope police will be able to show us their report into Cleo's death.

00:48:11 Speaker_05
It's been another long day and we head back to the hotel in North Battleford when we get a text. OK, so it is 10 o'clock on Thursday. And then we just got a text message as we were driving by the casino. Gavin said, just found Sidney.

00:48:32 Speaker_05
He's here at the casino. So we're now going to go in and try to talk to the man that we think is Cleo's dad. Coming up on the next Missing and Murdered, Finding Cleo. Did you ever hear anything about her daughter Cleo?

00:48:54 Speaker_06
Well, we were just, I mean, we don't know. We were just hearing rumors that you might have been her dad.

00:49:08 Speaker_05
Finding Cleo is written and hosted by me, Connie Walker. It's produced by Marnie Luke and Jennifer Fowler. Mika Anderson is our audio producer, and our senior producer is Heather Evans.

00:49:20 Speaker_05
To subscribe to the podcast, search Missing and Murdered Finding Cleo on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app. To see photos of our trip to Little Pine, Saskatchewan, visit our website at cbc.ca slash FindingCleo.

00:49:35 Speaker_05
You can listen to the podcast there and find a more complete list of credits and people we'd like to thank. That's cbc.ca slash FindingCleo.

00:50:32 Speaker_00
For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.