S2 Episode 5: Afraid of the dark AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Missing & Murdered: Finding Cleo

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Episode: S2 Episode 5: Afraid of the dark

Author: CBC
Duration: 00:29:28

Episode Shownotes

As Connie shares some shocking news with Cleo's siblings, the truth about what happened to her remains just out of reach. Police may have answers but can’t share them yet. It's time to visit the one person who's bound to know more.

For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/missing-murdered-season-2-finding-cleo-transcripts-listen-1.6733352

Summary

In Season 2, Episode 5 of 'Missing & Murdered: Finding Cleo,' investigative reporter Connie Walker reveals to Cleo's siblings the discovery of her grave site in New Jersey along with new insights into her tragic fate. The episode poignantly explores the emotional impact on Cleo's family as they confront the realities of her suspected murder while attempting to return home to Saskatchewan. There is a crucial focus on obtaining further details from law enforcement and Cleo's adoptive family, as they seek closure surrounding her disappearance that has remained unsolved for over four decades.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (S2 Episode 5: Afraid of the dark) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_00
Before John F Kennedy's famous decade was out, before Eagle had set down on the surface of the moon, before NASA had rescued the crew of Apollo 13, they had already set their sights on a new vehicle. Space Shuttle.

00:00:15 Speaker_00
I'm Kevin Fong, and in this new podcast, we're bringing you the incredible story of the birth of the Space Shuttle era, as told by the people who built and flew it. From the ACAST Creator Network, 16 Sunsets. This is a CBC Podcast.

00:00:39 Speaker_08
Previously on Missing and Murdered, Finding Cleo. We're looking for beloved daughter Cleo L. Madonia. There it is. So are you from here as well? I was just wondering if you would recognize her photo.

00:01:01 Speaker_12
No. Oh, wait a minute. This is Cleo.

00:01:06 Speaker_08
Yeah.

00:01:07 Speaker_07
Oh my gosh. Yeah, she and I were friends. What? Yes. In the 70s, did you ever hear anything about a young girl dying?

00:01:17 Speaker_04
What? Oh, you mean strangely? I think I know how she died.

00:01:22 Speaker_00
But I'm not positive.

00:01:24 Speaker_08
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm really, really sorry. No, I can't imagine how you feel.

00:01:31 Speaker_03
Oh my gosh.

00:01:34 Speaker_08
I'm Connie Walker and this is Missing and Murdered. Finding Cleo. An investigative podcast by CBC News. It seemed nearly impossible at times, but we did it. We found Cleo. We know her adoptive name. We know where she lived. We know where she is buried.

00:02:07 Speaker_08
We've talked to her friends and we're getting a sense of her life in New Jersey. But we still have questions.

00:02:15 Speaker_08
Her biological family believes that Cleo was murdered, picked up by a predator while trying to hitchhike back home to Saskatchewan and killed in Arkansas.

00:02:26 Speaker_08
Cleo's friends in New Jersey have told us a bit about her time here, but they won't tell us what happened to her. We still don't know how she died. We have one full day left here.

00:02:38 Speaker_08
We need to try to get answers from police or from Cleo's adoptive family. But now that we know for sure that we found her, we need to tell Cleo's siblings. Hey, is this Johnny? Hey Johnny, it's Connie calling from CBC.

00:03:00 Speaker_02
Hey, how you doing?

00:03:01 Speaker_08
Good, how are you? Good, good. What are you up to?

00:03:04 Speaker_02
Oh, working at the moment.

00:03:08 Speaker_08
Okay, well actually we're kind of nearby. Actually about a couple hours away. We're wondering if we could come and meet you. We've been just looking into some things here and would like to just kind of give you an update in person.

00:03:21 Speaker_08
Yeah, go on, where are you guys at? So we're two hours away from Lancaster in Mount Laurel, New Jersey. Johnny says he can talk to us after he finishes work. So we get in our rental car and head west to Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

00:03:39 Speaker_08
Can I get you guys anything? No, we're good. We're good. Yeah, thanks very much. When Johnny hears that we have an update for him about Cleo, he asks his friend Danielle if she can be there for our talk.

00:03:49 Speaker_08
We meet him at her house on a quiet tree-lined street.

00:03:53 Speaker_10
You need anything, Chief? No, I'm good. You need water or something? Great.

00:03:58 Speaker_08
We're sitting on Danielle's front porch. It's a mild evening in late spring and the sun is beginning to set. I'm a bit nervous because I don't know how Johnny will take the news that we found Cleo. The girl he said goodbye to when he was 13.

00:04:11 Speaker_08
The girl he promised to find. The one he's been looking for for years. And honestly, even though we've been working on this investigation for months and have gotten to know him a little bit, it feels weird to be the one telling him about his sister.

00:04:29 Speaker_08
We actually found a grave site for someone named Cleo Madonia. And we weren't sure if that was the right Cleo. But we were able to confirm that that is her grave site. She was adopted into a family in Marlton, New Jersey.

00:04:50 Speaker_10
Why did it take so long? Because I found out in 76. And they told me she died two years prior.

00:04:58 Speaker_08
Yeah, do you think that you had the dates wrong, maybe?

00:05:03 Speaker_11
No, I remember it exactly. U.S. Bicentennial, it was done in 1876. So that's how I know.

00:05:11 Speaker_08
I'm not sure if he believes we've actually found her, so I show him the photos that Jill and Gina gave us. That's her photo from grade five. We talked to a couple.

00:05:22 Speaker_11
That's about her, yeah.

00:05:23 Speaker_08
Does that look familiar?

00:05:24 Speaker_11
Yeah, yep, her smile, her hair. Yeah, that'd be her. Where was this from, Saskatchewan?

00:05:31 Speaker_08
No, that's from New Jersey. We met this girl standing next to her and they were friends. And they were friends from grade 5, 6, 7, and 8. And they said that it was December of grade 8 that she died.

00:05:51 Speaker_11
They say where?

00:05:53 Speaker_08
They didn't say where, but we did find out it was in Marlton. But we don't know how she died.

00:06:01 Speaker_11
I was better not knowing nothing. That's awesome. I'm glad you guys found out more than I would know.

00:06:08 Speaker_08
Donnie says it's awesome and great, but he is so calm. He seems unfazed. I wasn't sure what to expect. I imagined he might have a different reaction. But then I remember our interview.

00:06:21 Speaker_08
In the matter-of-fact way, he spoke about memories that had to be painful. And his reaction begins to make sense.

00:06:28 Speaker_11
You'd think I'd be more emotional, but I'm not, because it's like, after all these years, it's good to know. But, so that's her adoptive name, huh?

00:06:38 Speaker_08
Cleomedonia, yeah.

00:06:39 Speaker_11
Wow. That's where she's buried and stuff?

00:06:44 Speaker_08
Yeah, she's buried in a cemetery.

00:06:47 Speaker_11
Wow, that's not too far across from Philly there, is it? Yeah, the smile looks familiar in the eyes and stuff.

00:06:53 Speaker_08
Does she look like she did when she was a kid?

00:06:55 Speaker_11
Yeah, especially this one here.

00:06:57 Speaker_08
I tell Johnny about meeting Cleo's friends, Jill and Gina, about how they remember Cleo and what they want her siblings to know.

00:07:06 Speaker_08
That's the one thing they wanted to make sure that you guys knew about her was that she smiled a lot and she seemed happy.

00:07:13 Speaker_10
Oh yeah, so I remember that too.

00:07:18 Speaker_11
That's great. There's more than I expected, you know. And friends that remember her, that's even better.

00:07:27 Speaker_08
But she refused to tell us how she died. She said, I don't want to tell you.

00:07:32 Speaker_11
It's not... I think she'd tell me. I mean, do you have a... I mean, I'd like to know. I mean, if... They say they're willing to talk to us or anything like that. Well, that's even better. Yeah.

00:07:46 Speaker_08
I think they'd be really actually excited to talk to you guys. Yeah. To tell you about Cleo.

00:07:52 Speaker_11
I'm just, you know, just talking about...

00:07:57 Speaker_08
Yeah, I'm sure it's a lot to take in.

00:07:59 Speaker_11
Well, I've been waiting forever, but I'm glad you guys found out. Did you tell anybody else? My sisters, or anything?

00:08:10 Speaker_08
No, we really just confirmed last night in New Jersey.

00:08:16 Speaker_11
It's weird, you'd think I'd be real emotional about it, but I'm just relieved to have a name and pictures.

00:08:22 Speaker_08
It's getting late. We agree that we will try to call Christine, April and Mark in the morning. We say goodnight to Johnny, who still seems to be processing this news.

00:08:33 Speaker_11
It's good to know.

00:08:35 Speaker_08
I'm glad. I'm glad you feel relieved. I'm glad.

00:08:38 Speaker_11
You know, maybe this will be later on or something, you know.

00:08:49 Speaker_08
Later that night, Johnny posts the photo we gave him on social media. It's Cleo's grade five class picture from New Jersey, where she's wearing the bright yellow shirt and she looks happy. He writes, they found my sister.

00:09:04 Speaker_11
They found my sister.

00:09:06 Speaker_08
I'm still trying to take it all in.

00:09:08 Speaker_11
I remember her smile. I see her smiling all my friends. She was only 13. Hug your children, your sister. Never let them go. Tell them you love them.

00:09:24 Speaker_08
Later, he posts another photo of Cleo, the black and white one from the yearbook, taken just a few months before she died.

00:09:31 Speaker_08
When he writes, Johnny's real reaction comes out, expressing all of his emotions about finding Cleo, all of the things he couldn't say to us in person.

00:09:43 Speaker_11
It's been a long journey. This is my sister. 1974 was the last day I saw you. I remember your smile. Telling you I'd find you no matter what. Silly promise to make for a 13 year old. But the journey doesn't end here. The question remains.

00:10:04 Speaker_11
What was your life like? What were your adoptive parents like? Why did you have to die so young? I'm afraid to know how you died. I'm afraid of the dark. I used to embrace the darkness. Not sure how I'm gonna deal with this sadness.

00:10:28 Speaker_11
This is gonna hurt for a long time.

00:10:31 Speaker_08
You know, all of her siblings talked about wanting to find out the truth about Cleo and wanting to find their sister. But the more that we uncover, the more painful it seems to become.

00:10:44 Speaker_08
And I wonder if this is still worth it, like if finding the answers is really what they want.

00:10:52 Speaker_03
Well, first of all, I'm happy to know that she's, we know where she is because all this time I've never known where she is.

00:11:01 Speaker_08
We make a plan for a conference call with the rest of Cleo's siblings in the morning. But at 10 a.m. the only person we can reach on the phone is Christine. She's already talked to Johnny and has had some time to process the news.

00:11:24 Speaker_08
Christine, who started us on this journey with her story about Cleo's murder, wants to know how Cleo died. I tell her about Jill and Gina, what they told us about Cleo, and what they didn't. They refused to talk about it.

00:11:38 Speaker_08
They said that we have to find out on our own and that we need to try to find her death certificate, but they would not talk about it at all. Hmm.

00:11:50 Speaker_12
Well, yeah, something happened for a perfectly healthy 13-year-old to die, right? And suddenly, too. Like, I sense the death was unexpected. But I'd like to know, too, yeah.

00:12:09 Speaker_08
We try calling April and Mark again. So we'll just have to try to reach Mark another time, because we can't get in touch with him. But now April and Christine are both on the line here. Hi. How are you?

00:12:23 Speaker_12
Good, good, good. How are you? Doing pretty good, thanks.

00:12:28 Speaker_08
April doesn't use social media, so she hasn't yet heard the news that we've found Cleo.

00:12:33 Speaker_12
So the reason we're calling is that they found Cleo's grave.

00:12:40 Speaker_02
Oh my God. Where?

00:12:43 Speaker_12
It's in New Jersey. We know where she is now.

00:12:48 Speaker_02
Oh my God, that's great.

00:12:50 Speaker_12
Yeah, isn't it? I think that's good. We don't have to look for her.

00:12:57 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:12:58 Speaker_12
Are you okay?

00:13:00 Speaker_02
Yeah, I'm okay. Wow.

00:13:03 Speaker_08
Yeah, yeah. There's still, I think, you know, some unanswered questions. We tell them we're trying to get information from police in Marlton and that we've been trying to reach Cleo's adoptive mother, Mrs. Leigh Madonia, on the phone.

00:13:19 Speaker_02
I definitely would like to find out how she passed away.

00:13:24 Speaker_12
Yeah, I want to know too.

00:13:26 Speaker_02
Yeah. So she died in February.

00:13:34 Speaker_08
Yeah, December 22, 1978.

00:13:35 Speaker_12
So she was 13 years old when she died?

00:13:40 Speaker_02
Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you. Thank you for doing all the hard work for us. And Chris, thank you for starting this process. We would never have found out if it wasn't for you, Chris.

00:14:01 Speaker_12
Well, I needed to know. I still want to know more, too.

00:14:05 Speaker_02
Yeah, me too.

00:14:07 Speaker_12
Yeah. Thirteen-year-olds just don't die. Not very often, anyway. Like if her heart exploded or something, that's something we should know, right? Or if she was accidentally hit by a car or something. Or run over or something.

00:14:29 Speaker_08
Can we ask you guys to let Mark know or to get in touch with Mark?

00:14:33 Speaker_12
Yeah, I'll keep trying. Like, I have his email, so I'll ask him to call me and I'll keep my little recorder around.

00:14:39 Speaker_02
No, I understand. For sure. All right. I'll be around. I love you, too. OK, bye bye.

00:15:05 Speaker_08
How are you doing, Christine?

00:15:08 Speaker_12
Oh, good. I'm good.

00:15:11 Speaker_08
I know it's a lot to bring up again, I'm sure.

00:15:16 Speaker_12
Well, it's a relief, but it's still just one, it's a major step, but it's still more steps to be taken, right?

00:15:30 Speaker_08
Christine believes that Cleo wants her to find out the truth about what happened to her.

00:15:34 Speaker_12
My intuition tells me that she was not supposed to be taken from this world. I don't think it was anything medical. I think it was something beyond her control and that she didn't want to die. That's the sense that I get.

00:15:45 Speaker_12
But I don't think she was meant to be gone from this world. Something happened.

00:15:53 Speaker_08
Christine tells me about a dream that she had of Cleo. She says she sometimes has these dreams. Visions of Cleo trying to talk to her from beyond. To help her in her quest for answers and to bring Cleo home.

00:16:11 Speaker_12
I had this dream of being on the banks of the Saskatchewan River but on the top, right? So I remember it was summer and it was nice and green. It was windy and I could hear the water.

00:16:22 Speaker_12
Then I seen this house that had no windows or it had a door, but it had no windows. It was a really weird house. And I remember thinking, why doesn't that house have windows?

00:16:30 Speaker_12
Then I seen somebody running through the field towards me and it was, it was Cleo, but she was younger. She was about, I don't know, four or five. She had a very full face and she was looked very young. So she was running towards me and she was happy.

00:16:44 Speaker_12
And then in the background, I saw an older woman. And that older woman I think was my grandmother because I seen her wearing a blue dress and an apron and she was coming out of the house. So I think my grandmother wants me to bring her back.

00:17:12 Speaker_12
So that's all I saw was Cleo being happy. In the sense that Cleo's happiest times of her life. We're on the reserve where she was, stayed with my grandmother. I don't know how I know that. That's what they showed me in my dreams.

00:17:26 Speaker_12
So I don't know if any of that's true, but in my dreams she was staying with my grandmother and she was very happy and she was on the banks of the Saskatchewan River.

00:17:39 Speaker_08
So you, you want to bring her back to Saskatchewan?

00:17:44 Speaker_12
Yeah. Because like, Our lives have been like we've been dropped from the sky, you know, we were raised by these people who don't look like us. Stand out in every class picture or little newspaper clipping throughout our whole lives, right?

00:17:59 Speaker_12
We belong somewhere. Spiritually, we're connected to somewhere. And so I want to be buried in Little Pine because even though I was taken from there doesn't mean I don't belong there. Because when she came to me,

00:18:15 Speaker_12
When Cleo came to me and told me those things, I think that's what she wants. She wouldn't have told me if she didn't. I need to know. I need to know.

00:18:33 Speaker_08
I understand that, for sure.

00:18:39 Speaker_05
This woman is so adept at being a criminal, it's not funny.

00:18:44 Speaker_01
I've never seen a shit show quite like the story of Sarah King.

00:18:49 Speaker_05
She conned people out of $10 million.

00:18:52 Speaker_01
But infamy comes with a price.

00:18:54 Speaker_05
If we don't have her money by tomorrow morning, you will be gutted like a fish in Newport Harbor.

00:18:59 Speaker_01
Lady Mafia, available now on The Binge. Search for Lady Mafia wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today.

00:19:11 Speaker_08
I feel like we're so close to uncovering the full story about Cleo and how she died. But I'm worried we're running out of time. It's our last day in the United States. We're supposed to fly back to Toronto later this afternoon.

00:19:25 Speaker_08
Before we go, we're heading back to Marlton to check in with police one more time. But also to make the delicate approach and try to talk to Cleo's adoptive mother, Mrs. Madonia. We think that her mom is still alive here in New Jersey.

00:19:41 Speaker_08
She's probably in her 70s, you know, and that she might have a brother here as well. And we want to try to be as careful as we can with Cleo's mom. And so we thought that maybe a phone call first would be the best way to reach out to her.

00:20:03 Speaker_04
Hello, please leave us your name and phone number and any message and we'll call you back.

00:20:15 Speaker_08
I decide not to leave a message and we start on the two-hour drive back to Marlton. We aren't on the road long when we realize we missed a call on Marnie's cell. So we just missed Mark's phone call and I'm gonna call him back.

00:20:36 Speaker_02
Hello.

00:20:38 Speaker_08
Hi, is this Mark?

00:20:41 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:20:41 Speaker_08
Hi Mark, it's Connie calling from CBC.

00:20:45 Speaker_02
Somebody want to enlighten me as to what's going on?

00:20:47 Speaker_08
Sure, sure. We tried calling you this morning when we were on the phone with Christine and April. Okay, so you're on the phone with them.

00:20:58 Speaker_02
What's the big news here, Marnie?

00:21:00 Speaker_08
It's Connie.

00:21:02 Speaker_02
Sorry, Connie, I got Marnie on CBC. Sorry, I got the wrong number or wrong person on the wrong number.

00:21:08 Speaker_08
No, I'm using Marnie's phone, but I guess the news is that we we found Cleo's grave in Marlton, New Jersey.

00:21:17 Speaker_02
How come you're the one telling me this?

00:21:30 Speaker_08
He hung up. Mark is ticked off and I get it. I understand his anger. Why he wouldn't want to hear such important personal news from a reporter that he's never met in person. Of all of the siblings, Christine and Mark seem to be the closest.

00:21:52 Speaker_08
So I call her to let her know what just happened and to see if she can reach out to him. We just got a call from Mark and we told him that we found Cleo and he was quite upset that he was hearing from us.

00:22:06 Speaker_08
He's, I guess, a little bit upset and that I'm sure he'd appreciate a call or something.

00:22:13 Speaker_03
Yeah, I tried to call him. I'll give him another call.

00:22:16 Speaker_08
Okay. We hope Christine can reach Mark. In the meantime, we keep trying to call Mrs. Madonia. Which number did you say? No, 0906. Okay.

00:22:29 Speaker_04
Hello, please leave us your name and phone number.

00:22:35 Speaker_08
But we had another important phone call to make. Jill wouldn't tell us how Cleo died but suggested we contact Marlton police. She was certain they would have investigated Cleo's death.

00:22:46 Speaker_06
Marney reminds him why we're calling and the information we're hoping to get. And that's where I need to do some more legwork. There was an active investigation.

00:23:04 Speaker_07
So you have been able to locate a file then?

00:23:07 Speaker_06
Yes. I actually have it sitting right in front of me.

00:23:11 Speaker_08
Not only was there an active investigation into Cleo's death, they still have the file from 40 years ago. Does that mean it was never solved?

00:23:21 Speaker_08
Immediately, Marnie wants to know if anything in that file sounds like what Cleo's family has believed for decades, that she was murdered somewhere in Arkansas while trying to hitchhike back home to Saskatchewan.

00:23:34 Speaker_07
Is what I'm explaining lining up with what you're seeing in the file?

00:23:37 Speaker_06
There's definitely similarities to what you're saying may have happened in her past. That's why I was wondering, maybe if she came this way from there or what, because it just seems crazy. I don't know how

00:23:49 Speaker_06
but I think I find it odd that there's all these similarities and the only difference is like Arkansas and New Jersey.

00:23:56 Speaker_07
Yeah. And her mother alluded to the fact that she had run away and tried to go back to, to Saskatchewan.

00:24:03 Speaker_06
That would probably be accurate. And I'll check. I mean, I'm actually checking upstairs as we speak to see with our clerk's office, there should be a death certificate on file. And I believe that that is a public record.

00:24:17 Speaker_06
I'm actually checking for that right now. I wasn't told that they should have it. There's actually some of the officers that responded and investigated are still alive. That may be one avenue that I'm going to potentially explore.

00:24:37 Speaker_08
He can't tell us much more about the police investigation. He says he needs permission before he can share more information. But we would find out that the file containing the police report is thick.

00:24:50 Speaker_08
I can't help but think of that article in the paper about the attempted rape of a teenage girl hitchhiking in the area in the weeks before Cleo died. We hit some traffic on the way back to Marlton and I'm starting to get anxious about the time.

00:25:12 Speaker_08
Marnie and I talked it over with Heather, our senior producer, and we decide that if we can't get Mrs. Madonia on the phone, then we'll try reaching her at home. Something I'm dreading doing.

00:25:24 Speaker_08
How will she react to a reporter just showing up and asking about her daughter who died nearly 40 years ago? I really don't want to do this, but knocking on her door seems like the best option with such limited time.

00:25:39 Speaker_08
So yeah, we're just a few minutes away from Mrs. Madonia's house and we're going to knock on her door just to see if she's home and if she's, let her know what we're doing and see if she's interested in talking to us. How are you feeling?

00:25:56 Speaker_08
Really conflicted actually. I'm trying to figure out if it's just nerves. Like I understand we have this time pressure because we're only in New Jersey for a little bit of time. And I'm just wondering if this is the best way to do this.

00:26:10 Speaker_08
So I'm feeling a bit nervous about that actually. Marnie and I talk it over some more. We want to be as careful and as sensitive as we possibly can be.

00:26:21 Speaker_08
I'm still a bit unsure, but I think of Cleo's siblings, about how much they want to know how she died, and how much I also want to know. We've been working on this story for months and we're at a crucial moment.

00:26:33 Speaker_08
Her friends won't tell us, neither will police. Talking to Mrs. Madonia today is our best chance at finding out the truth. We pull up to a house which, according to our research, the Madonias have lived in for decades, even before they adopted Cleo.

00:26:58 Speaker_08
This was Cleo's home after she left Saskatchewan. It's bigger, I'm sure, than any house she lived in on the reserve. It has two stories with lots of windows and red shutters. There's a two-car garage right next to the front door.

00:27:13 Speaker_08
The lawn is freshly mowed. It looks like a perfect suburban home. We park across the street. I'm so nervous when I get out of the car. Marnie waits in the car. I cross the street, walk up the driveway, and approach the front door.

00:27:47 Speaker_08
Hi, I'm looking for Lee Madonia. Hi Leigh, my name is Connie Walker, I know that we've never met. I'm a reporter with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Toronto, Ontario. Sure, yeah, is that okay for a second?

00:28:10 Speaker_09
I'm not feeling well.

00:28:11 Speaker_08
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

00:28:14 Speaker_09
What's your first name, did you say? Connie Walker.

00:28:16 Speaker_08
I'm here because I'm working with a family in Canada. I'm a reporter and I got a message a few months ago from a woman and she and her siblings, her biological siblings, were all adopted into various families across North America.

00:28:36 Speaker_08
And they've been looking for their sibling, a young girl named Cleo. And we think that it might be your daughter. On the next Missing and Murdered, Finding Cleo.

00:28:58 Speaker_07
It's surreal to be inside the house where Cleo lived. To hear the truth about how Cleo died.

00:29:25 Speaker_08
Missing and Murdered Finding Cleo is written and hosted by me, Connie Walker. It's produced by Marnie Luke and Jennifer Fowler. Mika Anderson is our audio producer, and our senior producer is Heather Evans.

00:29:40 Speaker_08
Subscribe for free to get the next batch of episodes. Search Missing and Murdered Finding Cleo on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app. You can also listen, see photos and explore other extras on our website at cbc.ca findingcleo.

00:30:24 Speaker_05
For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.