S2 Episode 10: Cleo’s letters AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Missing & Murdered: Finding Cleo

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Episode: S2 Episode 10: Cleo’s letters

Author: CBC
Duration: 00:55:12

Episode Shownotes

Even though it was supposed to have been destroyed in 1983, the police file documenting the investigation into Cleo’s death still exists and it contains more detail than Christine ever imagined learning about the last days, hours and even minutes of Cleo’s short life. For transcripts of this series, please

visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/missing-murdered-season-2-finding-cleo-transcripts-listen-1.6733352

Summary

In this episode of "Missing & Murdered: Finding Cleo," investigative reporter Connie Walker explores the poignant letters of Cleo Madonia, a 13-year-old Cree girl, alongside an investigation file documenting her tragic last days in 1983. Cleo's letters reveal her hopes, dreams, and struggles with friendships, family issues, and a troubling relationship with Barry Arnold. The narrative unfolds her emotional turmoil and the circumstances leading to her untimely death, emphasizing the systemic injustices faced by Indigenous children. Ultimately, the episode seeks to honor Cleo's life and the deeper truths surrounding her story.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (S2 Episode 10: Cleo’s letters) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:01 Speaker_12
Between 1973 and 1986, the Golden State Killer terrorized Californians.

00:00:07 Speaker_11
He scoped out the homes he would enter. Police would find cigarettes under a tree, by a window. So he was frequently there, at the window, in the backyard, in the dark.

00:00:18 Speaker_12
I'm Kathleen Goltar, and this week on Crime Story, why it took police more than 40 years to identify the Golden State Killer. Find Crime Story wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:31 Speaker_01
This is a CBC Podcast. The following episode contains dramatizations and strong language.

00:00:44 Speaker_17
County of Burlington, investigation report. Crime, sudden death. Date of crime, December 22nd, 1978. Victim, Cleopatra Madonia. At approximately 13.01 p.m., the writer was dispatched to the Woodstream development of the township.

00:01:07 Speaker_17
Radio message was received as an ambulance emergency. Upon arrival, the writer was directed by a young white male, Louis Madonia, to an upstairs bedroom located on the north side of the house.

00:01:22 Speaker_17
The writer proceeded to the bedroom and found a young oriental female lying on her back, bleeding from the head wound. The writer checked for a pulse and signs of life, but was unable to locate any like signs.

00:01:40 Speaker_17
The writer noticed a revolver, which appeared to be a .38 caliber, lying on the floor under a chair in the north front corner of the room. A note was noticed on top of the bookcase.

00:02:05 Speaker_16
Hi Lori, guess what song's on the radio? Who are you? I don't believe it. Whenever I write you a note it comes on the radio. That's weird.

00:02:23 Speaker_14
It's the fall of 1978. The Who has just released a new album, and Cleo Madonia is a 13-year-old living in Marlton, New Jersey. For the first time in our investigation, Cleo comes to life through her letters from the police report.

00:02:42 Speaker_14
In many ways, she sounds like a typical American teenager growing up in the 1970s.

00:02:49 Speaker_06
Hi, Lori.

00:02:53 Speaker_16
Maybe you could come over this weekend. I'll have to ask my mom.

00:02:57 Speaker_14
She has the classic feathered hairstyle, braces on her top and bottom teeth, and crushes on celebrities.

00:03:06 Speaker_16
What do you want for Christmas? Something under $10, OK? Because I ain't rich. You could get me posters of Andy Gibb or a 45 Will Do, OK?

00:03:16 Speaker_14
All of these letters are written to her best friend, a girl named Lori Montgomery. They go to the same school but live in opposite ends of town, so they write a lot of letters back and forth.

00:03:28 Speaker_16
Lori, hi, how are you? I'm fine. It's going all right, thank you for writing.

00:03:34 Speaker_14
God, you write big. Cleo's letters are neat. She writes in cursive most of the time and uses complete sentences. Most of her letters start with a high exclamation point. How's it going? Question mark.

00:03:49 Speaker_14
She and Lori talk about typical teen things, music, school, gossip, and boys.

00:03:56 Speaker_16
You should see Tom's older brother, Mike. He is absolutely gorgeous and so built.

00:04:03 Speaker_14
Cleo lives with her mom, her dad, and her older brother in Woodstream, a new subdivision in town. Her family lives in a big, two-story, four-bedroom house. Her room is upstairs. She has two single beds, a small bookshelf, a dresser, and a desk.

00:04:20 Speaker_14
Maybe that's where she wrote this note to Lori.

00:04:25 Speaker_16
I love The Who, but the drummer died of OD.

00:04:27 Speaker_14
I have to get all their albums. The girls dream about starting a band, leaving New Jersey, and heading west.

00:04:36 Speaker_16
When we go to California, we could still live on the shore, but we'll have to get a lot of insurance on the house and our lives.

00:04:43 Speaker_14
Cleo was a child who fantasized about running away and living by the ocean, and oddly, one who also worried about having enough insurance. Who will come with us?

00:04:54 Speaker_16
Me and you and who else? It's definitely going to be me and you no matter what.

00:04:59 Speaker_14
Cleo gets all A's and takes advanced math. But while Lori and most of the other kids switch teachers every period, Cleo is in a special classroom. She stays in the same room all day with the same two teachers.

00:05:13 Speaker_16
This morning was so easy. We didn't do any work. All the teachers know I'm pretty smart, so if I don't get good grades, they'll be on my ass. So I would do your homework for you so you get good grades. So give me your work, okay?"

00:05:26 Speaker_14
Most of these letters aren't dated, but it sounds like it's sometime in November 1978. The grade 8 students in their school have just begun selling candy for a fundraiser to go on a field trip.

00:05:38 Speaker_16
Hi, Lori. I can't wait till we go on the trip. I hope you could go. Why aren't you selling candy?

00:05:44 Speaker_14
I am. Compared to Cleo, Lori seems like a bit of a badass. She likes Alice Cooper, not Andy Gibb. She swears a lot. And the only way she wants to take part in the school candy sale is to find a way to steal the money the kids are raising.

00:06:00 Speaker_03
We won't get caught, though. Are you going to smoke pot in the bathroom? Fuck what your mom thinks. Don't listen to her.

00:06:09 Speaker_14
Both girls write to each other about needing to protect themselves.

00:06:14 Speaker_16
Hi, Speed. I think when I come over, I'm going to bring a knife. And if he tries to touch me, I will cut him up.

00:06:21 Speaker_03
Hi, Queen Ko. I'm going to get a gun to protect me from rape.

00:06:27 Speaker_14
But it's hard to know how much is exaggeration or actual fear.

00:06:32 Speaker_16
Tom says if he touches me, he'll come over, then kick his ass. Your friend forever, Queen Ko.

00:06:40 Speaker_14
They come up with code names for each other. Cleo is Queen Co and Lori is Speed. For 13-year-olds, Queen Co and Speed seem to talk a lot about getting high and partying. Hi, Speed.

00:06:54 Speaker_16
Remember on Halloween when the guy asked me for a chocolate bar? Well, I was talking to him after I got off the bus. He said me and him should get stoned off our asses. I said we would, but I ain't never going to get stoned off my ass with him.

00:07:10 Speaker_16
My brother's birthday's today. He's 15 or 16. I'm not quite sure. He's an asshole. On Saturday, let's go to the mall. Do you want to go see up in smoke?

00:07:20 Speaker_14
Despite being annoyed at her brother, there's hardly a hint of any kind of inner turmoil in these letters, except maybe this.

00:07:30 Speaker_14
Oh, wild, beautiful child, I see a wild, beautiful... Cleo wrote a song about someone who doesn't know what he's doing and doesn't care where he's going.

00:07:40 Speaker_16
Don't you know what you're doing? Don't you care? Oh, wild, beautiful child. I saw Barry and he said hi. He is so, so cute. Do you think he's cute? I don't like Macho Man anymore. The only two people I like are Barry and Eric.

00:07:58 Speaker_14
It seems Cleo has only just met this guy named Barry while selling candy for the school fundraiser. But she tells Laurie that she already more than likes him.

00:08:07 Speaker_16
I wish I could get out. I love Barry. He's so cute and nice. I wish I could party. I need to so, so bad. I hope Barry has some. I hope he does.

00:08:18 Speaker_14
Two weekends before her death, Cleo and Lori come up with a plan for Friday night. She's going to tell her mom that they're going roller skating. But really, Cleo and Lori are going to meet up with Barry and party.

00:08:32 Speaker_14
Your dad will pick us up and drop us off at Two Guys.

00:08:36 Speaker_16
The plan is for Lori's dad to drop them off at a local department store in Marlton. Barry will pick us up at about 7.30. He'll drive us to the skating rink about 11 o'clock. I can't wait. I'm going to get so stoned.

00:08:50 Speaker_16
If he tries to do anything with you, tell him to get off and he'll leave you alone. He is so, so nice. Gotta go, bye. Your friend for life, Cleo.

00:09:01 Speaker_14
But things don't work out as Cleo hopes. Her mom calls the skating rink to check in on her and finds out she isn't there.

00:09:09 Speaker_16
Hi, how's it going? My mom said I was forbidden to hang around you. She could go to hell for all I care. You'll always be my best friend for life. I could pick my own friends.

00:09:20 Speaker_14
It sounds like Cleo's parents don't approve of Lori, but the letters don't say what they know about her relationship with Barry.

00:09:29 Speaker_16
Guess whose birthday's coming up? Barry's. It's either Tuesday or Wednesday. He forgets how old he is. He says age doesn't matter, as long as you have fun. He's weird. Should I get him something? He's so cute and really nice.

00:09:47 Speaker_14
Cleo hasn't been writing about Barry for that long, but things seem to be moving fast.

00:09:53 Speaker_16
Barry said we can move in with him when we get older. He isn't going to get married because it'll be too hard to handle. So he's going to stay single, like us.

00:10:01 Speaker_14
It sounds like in the days leading up to her death, Cleo was going through a lot. Her friendship with Lori was in jeopardy, things were getting serious with Barry, and she wasn't getting along with her parents.

00:10:15 Speaker_16
Remember you told me that if my mom loved me, she wouldn't send me away? Well, I guess she don't love me because she said she might send me to a home. Ask her mom if she'll adopt me. Just joking. I ain't gonna listen to her anymore. She could go to hell.

00:10:30 Speaker_14
Cleo fantasizes that when she grows up and becomes a mother, things will be different.

00:10:37 Speaker_16
I am not going to get married. I'm going to adopt a girl who is about 12 or 13 years old.

00:10:45 Speaker_14
It's hard to tell, but it seems like this next letter from Lori was written after the night at the roller skating rink, and that Cleo confided something to Lori about her relationship with Barry. Hi, Cleo.

00:10:57 Speaker_03
Remember what you told me about Barry? What you did with him? That's true, isn't it? I don't care. I was just saying that was all he wanted from you, if it's true. Is it true or is it bullshit?

00:11:10 Speaker_16
Speed, that stuff about Barry is true.

00:11:12 Speaker_03
I told Vicky it was true. Don't tell anyone. Hi, what's up? I got a picture for our album cover. I know it's not the greatest, but I ain't no artist.

00:11:24 Speaker_14
Lori's drawn a picture of three people standing on a highway with cigarettes dangling out of their mouths. One is standing right in the middle of the road with her thumb out. At the top it says hitchhikers and at the bottom it says hitching home.

00:11:40 Speaker_16
The cover you drew was good. Who else is going to come with us? It could just be you and me and a couple of boys just like heart or else it's just like a group like the runaways.

00:11:52 Speaker_14
Cleo's letters seem to show a girl going through classic teen angst. On one hand, she wants to be more grown up and dreams of running away with her best friend.

00:12:03 Speaker_14
But on the other hand, she still sounds like a young girl who's excited about the holidays.

00:12:12 Speaker_16
Did you ever hear Santa Claus is coming to town? Did you hear Bruce Springsteen sing it? It's good. I hear it on WMMR.

00:12:38 Speaker_17
December 22, 1978. Crime, sudden death. The room was tidy and there were no signs of any struggle. The young female was dressed in jeans, checked top, and socks. In addition to the body found in the bedroom, a note was noticed on top of the bookcase.

00:13:02 Speaker_14
This is the beginning of the police investigation into Cleo's death. In order to try to understand the note she wrote that day, we need to hear first from the people she talked to, the people closest to her, the people she loved.

00:13:20 Speaker_14
Mrs. Madonia didn't want to do an interview with us, but to fully understand what happened the day Cleo died, we need to include the details of her interview with police. Cleo's death was investigated by Detective Edward Brown.

00:13:39 Speaker_08
This is a statement of Leonore Madonia. Mrs. Madonia, what can you tell me in regards to the period of time prior to your daughter's death? You found her. What led to that?

00:13:51 Speaker_18
The morning started as it usually does. We had breakfast together and I left for the office at around, I'd say, somewhere between 8.45 and 9 o'clock. Cleo was to call me that morning to tell me what she was doing.

00:14:05 Speaker_18
And as I recall, she called me at 10 o'clock and told me she had done some of her math work.

00:14:12 Speaker_14
Mrs. Madonia says Cleo was suspended for the last week of school. Her grandmother had been home with her for four days. But on the last day before the Christmas holiday, Cleo was home alone.

00:14:26 Speaker_18
She called me at 11 o'clock again. You know, it was the same thing. She was doing her math and she was keeping herself busy. And she knew that I would be coming home early. And somehow or other, I called her. It might have been around 1130.

00:14:41 Speaker_18
And there was no answer, and I thought that really strange. So I called Cleo back, and there was still no answer. So I thought that very strange.

00:14:52 Speaker_14
Although she knew her mother would be calling her to check in, Cleo wasn't picking up the phone. Was she at home?

00:14:59 Speaker_14
Mrs. Madonia's interview with police happened two weeks after Cleo died, and she couldn't remember the exact time she last talked to Cleo. She thought it was at 11 a.m.

00:15:12 Speaker_18
And I'm sure she told me, and I want to be absolutely sure, but I can't be absolutely sure that she had spoken, that Miss Muzzetti had called her to thank her for the Christmas gifts.

00:15:25 Speaker_18
And I'm almost sure she told me Miss Muzzetti had spoken to her at that point.

00:15:30 Speaker_08
To begin with, what is your full name?

00:15:37 Speaker_15
My full name is Louise D. Muzzetti.

00:15:41 Speaker_08
And tell me the circumstances how she became a student of yours.

00:15:45 Speaker_15
Well, it seems that Cleo was having trouble in holding down the other classrooms. And there seems to have been a problem before she came to us.

00:15:52 Speaker_15
I think the week before, she had run away because she was unhappy and wanted to go back to her home in Canada.

00:15:59 Speaker_14
Miss Muzzetti tells Detective Brown that when Cleo was in grade seven, she tried to run away back home to Saskatchewan. After that, she was transferred to her classroom. It was a basic studies class with just 20 other students and two teachers, Ms.

00:16:15 Speaker_14
Mizzetti and Ms. Horn. And she did. She came and she was welcomed and she progressed beautifully.

00:16:21 Speaker_08
All right. Now, you said Cleo was different. How do you mean different?

00:16:25 Speaker_15
Well, I think because of her heritage, her background, because she wasn't Caucasian like the rest of the children. And I think that seed that the children can be cruel.

00:16:36 Speaker_08
Now I understand Cleo was suspended recently from school. Can you give me the circumstances involving the suspension?

00:16:42 Speaker_15
This has happened before. They brought those little airplane bottles in with liquor.

00:16:47 Speaker_14
Ms. Mazzetti says that Cleo was with some other girls who brought alcohol to school. They were caught and that's why she was suspended for the last week of classes before the Christmas break.

00:16:59 Speaker_15
And as far as the alcohol, as I said, Cleo, I think, went along with these girls. But I know Cleo was never under the influence of liquor in my classroom, never. She was too, I mean, she was too bright and active. She went to class, she studied.

00:17:11 Speaker_15
How could you get hundreds and 95s and 98s?

00:17:14 Speaker_14
Ms. Muzeri says she and Cleo were close and that she talked to her on the day she died.

00:17:20 Speaker_15
Yes, I did. That morning, of course, the children had a little party and a girl came in from another class and she handed me a gift and it was from Cleo.

00:17:29 Speaker_15
And of course, I felt bad because Cleo was not there and I said, well, I'm going to have to call her and I did. I called her that morning. I guess it was about what, 11.30, 11.45?

00:17:40 Speaker_15
I called her before I left school for lunch, and I thanked her for the gift, and I told her that I loved her, and she said to me, Miss Musetti, I miss you so much. And I said that I miss you too. And I said, but we'll see each other after the holidays.

00:17:52 Speaker_15
And she said, yes, I can't wait. And I wished her a happy holiday, and that was it.

00:17:57 Speaker_08
Did she give you any indication at all or sound depressed in any way?

00:18:02 Speaker_14
Nothing. Nothing. Detective Brown also asked Mrs. Madonia about Cleo's mood that morning.

00:18:14 Speaker_18
She didn't, you know, she didn't sound depressed. She sounded like that morning at breakfast we talked. I mean, she just like normal reactions or she did not sound silly and she didn't sound, you know, sad.

00:18:31 Speaker_18
It was, you know, just chat, general chit chat kind of thing.

00:18:37 Speaker_08
Mrs. Mendonia, do you have any idea why Cleo might do anything like this?

00:18:45 Speaker_18
I don't know why she would have taken her own life. I know she might not have been happy. Recently, she seemed to be having a little different pattern. Now that I think back, you know, not having breakfast when she just loved to eat.

00:19:02 Speaker_18
Now that I think back, she was listening to like hard rock, what I would call hard rock most recently. She maybe wasn't quite as Gabby most recently. We went out Christmas shopping and she was helping the night before or Wednesday night.

00:19:17 Speaker_18
We wrapped Christmas gifts. I really don't know why.

00:19:25 Speaker_14
There's another person who says that she also talked to Cleo on the phone that day, her other teacher, Miss Horn.

00:19:33 Speaker_00
It was about 1230 after the kids had gotten out of school at noon. I was a little late leaving the building myself and I wanted to make sure I called her to thank her for sending a Christmas gift to me.

00:19:46 Speaker_14
That is something that has stuck with me ever since I read this report. Cleo was suspended from school that whole week, but she still managed to send both of her teachers a Christmas present.

00:19:59 Speaker_00
She answered the phone very quickly, maybe two and a half rings. And I said, Cleo, this is Miss Horn, and I want to thank you for your Christmas gift. And I told her how nice it was to have remembered to send one for me.

00:20:14 Speaker_00
And I asked her how she was getting along. And she said, yeah, everything was fine. And I wished her and her family a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. And I told her that we all missed her and that we would see her in another week.

00:20:27 Speaker_00
And she said, OK, I'll be there.

00:20:30 Speaker_14
After she couldn't reach Cleo on the phone, Mrs. Madonia left work and headed home. It's normally about a 10-minute drive, but that day it took much longer.

00:20:42 Speaker_18
I think I walked out soon afternoon, soon afternoon time. I got to my car and I drove down Church Road and my car just stalled.

00:20:53 Speaker_14
Sometime between 12.15 and 12.30, Mrs. Madonia's car broke down. She walked to a nearby gas station for help.

00:21:01 Speaker_18
And the owner was there and I asked him, would you please take a look? And he said no. He was busy. He had other people. He'd get to it in maybe two or three hours. He couldn't promise anything. So I was getting a bit more, you know, anxious to get home.

00:21:16 Speaker_18
So I walked out of the Texaco station and I went to a 7-Eleven next door and called my home again and there was no answer. So I called my secretary at the office and I asked her to please come out, pick me up.

00:21:30 Speaker_14
Mrs. Madonia's secretary came to pick her up and drove her home. When they pulled into her driveway, she noticed her son Louis was outside.

00:21:40 Speaker_18
As we pulled up to my home, I saw my son's jacket on the driveway and my son standing by the double doors. I can't remember what he was dressed in. And I walked rapidly in and I said, where is Cleo? And he said, she's upstairs.

00:21:57 Speaker_18
And I looked and I realized the jacket was wet. And I said, what's wrong with your jacket? And he said, Cleo threw it in the creek and I just got it back.

00:22:10 Speaker_08
Louis, I think that you might have some information which could help in my investigation. To begin with, what's your full name? Louis Anthony Madonia. And what is your age? My age is 15.

00:22:23 Speaker_08
What do you know about the time directly preceding your sister's death?

00:22:27 Speaker_09
Okay, well, I was coming home on the bus at about 12.30 and I saw her running behind the house next to Cooper High School on Greentree Road in Cherry Hill.

00:22:36 Speaker_14
Lewis says it was around 12.30 when he was on the school bus on his way home. He saw Cleo out the window wearing his school jacket. He didn't know what she was doing or why she had it.

00:22:49 Speaker_09
And she came home without the jacket. And I asked her where it was. And she told me she didn't have it, and she didn't. She wasn't wearing it or anything like that. So she had her books on the table, and she just took the books, and she went upstairs.

00:23:02 Speaker_09
And then I went outside to look for the jacket.

00:23:05 Speaker_14
Lewis says he found the jacket floating under the bridge in a creek not far from their house.

00:23:11 Speaker_09
And I went back inside and asked her why she threw it in the creek. And she said because she knew she would get in trouble when my mom came home. So this was all that was said at that time? Yes. You weren't the slightest bit aggravated with her?

00:23:24 Speaker_09
Well, I was a little bit aggravated with her, but I didn't do anything to her because I figured that she would get in trouble anyways when my mom got home, so... Alright. Lewis, there was nothing else said other than that? Right.

00:23:37 Speaker_09
And she just went upstairs? Yeah, well, I was really thinking of punching her or something like that because I was really mad at her. She said, I don't care if you punch me or not, it doesn't matter. But you didn't touch her? No. She didn't seem upset?

00:23:53 Speaker_09
Not really. Went upstairs, that was it.

00:23:56 Speaker_14
Lewis tells Detective Brown that it was around 12.30 or quarter to one when Cleo went upstairs and he heard her rummaging around.

00:24:05 Speaker_09
I just thought maybe she might be cleaning or something. And then I heard the bang and I thought she probably was cleaning because she might have dropped something in my room or something. And I didn't think anything else of it.

00:24:17 Speaker_09
And then my mom came home and we both went upstairs then.

00:24:23 Speaker_18
And I walked rapidly in, and I said, where is Cleo? And he said, she's upstairs. And I looked, and I realized the jacket was wet. And I said, what's wrong with your jacket? And he said, Cleo threw it in the creek. And I just got it back.

00:24:40 Speaker_18
So I remember walking upstairs and shouting, Cleo, Cleo. And Louis followed me up and went down to her room. And I turned the door, and there was no sound. I opened the door and I quickly looked around and I didn't see Cleo.

00:24:59 Speaker_18
And I realized Cleo was on the floor. And I went to her and then turned her head and I realized something. It happened. I went back and I remember saying, Lewis, please dial the police department.

00:25:26 Speaker_14
Cleo used her father's gun to end her life. Reading the police report, I can't help but think, as I'm sure her family always thinks, about all of the what-ifs. What if her grandmother had stayed with her that morning?

00:25:44 Speaker_14
What if her mother's car had installed and she had gotten home earlier like she planned? What if she didn't get caught with her brother's jacket? What if there wasn't a gun in the house? But I also wonder, what if it was something else?

00:26:11 Speaker_08
The young girl was dressed in the following clothing, plaid button-down front shirt, color white and blue. A folded note was found under the victim's upper right leg. On this note was written, Queen Ko.

00:26:26 Speaker_08
Located inside of the right sock was a folded yellow paper with three telephone numbers written in red ink on the note. These numbers were traced through cross-reference telephone directory and found to be assigned to 1.

00:26:39 Speaker_08
Arnold's Landscaping and Lawn Service 2. K. Arnold Landscaping 3. Jack Arnold A torn note was found in the bathroom trash can. Upon piecing the fragments of white paper together, it was revealed that this note was addressed to Barry.

00:26:58 Speaker_14
Barry was the guy that Cleo talked about in her letters. Detective Brown seems interested in their relationship and asks Cleo's mother what she knew about Barry.

00:27:09 Speaker_18
He called one Saturday and I was home and I took the call and I asked him who he was and he did not answer me. He just wanted to speak to Cleo. I wanted to know the nature of the call because I realized it was an older voice.

00:27:25 Speaker_18
It was not a 14-year-old boy or a 13-year-old boy calling. Later found out, she was told that he had, you know, a truck and had been to Canada, and he knew exactly where she came from and knew the area.

00:27:41 Speaker_18
And Cleo came from North Battleford, which is in Saskatchewan. And I thought that that would be almost incredible that he would know something about her background. And Cleo did have a desire to go back to Canada. We understood this.

00:27:58 Speaker_18
I, in the back of my mind, I knew this would happen someday.

00:28:05 Speaker_14
So Barry Arnold told Cleo he knew where she was from, that he had been to North Battleford before.

00:28:10 Speaker_14
I can imagine for a girl who already tried to run away back to Saskatchewan, the idea that Barry had a truck and knew where she was from was exciting to Cleo.

00:28:24 Speaker_14
Mrs. Madonia wasn't the only adult in Cleo's life that was concerned about her relationship with Barry. Her teacher, Miss Musetti, also talked to police about him.

00:28:34 Speaker_15
She did mention she had met a fellow who was, she said, 21.

00:28:40 Speaker_14
So Barry wasn't just a boy who was old enough to drive. He was a man.

00:28:46 Speaker_15
She said that she met him just selling candy, and I told her to be very careful. I said, because you know, what does... I said, what would a fellow that age be doing with you, Cleo? I mean, really, be careful. Remember, don't be getting into trouble.

00:29:00 Speaker_08
Okay, and did you ever hear any more about him?

00:29:03 Speaker_15
Yes. I was talking to one of my children in school, one of the eighth graders, and she said that this boy had introduced Cleo to acid, and that he had had sex with her.

00:29:19 Speaker_08
Lori Montgomery, 14 years. On the above date and time, the above-mentioned subject was brought into police headquarters by her mother. Lori denied knowing whether Cleo was using marijuana or narcotics. She said that they just wrote these notes.

00:29:36 Speaker_08
Lori stated that she knew Barry Arnold drove a black pickup truck, possibly a Ford, and that he was tall and had blonde curly hair.

00:29:44 Speaker_08
Laurie further stated that Cleo had told her that she and Barry had sex together and that Barry would give her anything she wanted.

00:29:54 Speaker_14
On January 11, 1979, nearly three weeks after her death, Detective Brown interviews Barry Arnold about Cleo.

00:30:07 Speaker_13
In the dry states of the Southwest, there's a group that's been denied a basic human right. In the Navajo Nation today, a third of our households don't have running water. But that's not something they chose for themselves.

00:30:20 Speaker_13
Can the Navajo people reclaim their right to water and contend with the government's legacy of control and neglect?

00:30:27 Speaker_07
Our water, our future! Our water, our future!

00:30:31 Speaker_13
That's in the next season of Reclaimed, the lifeblood of Navajo Nation. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

00:30:43 Speaker_08
Barry, I'm Detective Edward Brown of the Yves Cham Township Police Department. To begin with, what's your full name? Barry Arnold. And what is your age? 24.

00:30:58 Speaker_14
24. So Barry was actually 11 years older than Cleo.

00:31:04 Speaker_08
All right. Barry, what, if anything, do you know about Cleopatra Madonia?

00:31:08 Speaker_02
Okay. The only thing that I know about Cleo is that she killed herself and I met her from buying a candy bar off of her. You said you met Cleo when she was selling candy? Yes.

00:31:23 Speaker_02
I was leaving my mother's house, getting into my truck to leave, and three girls came up and asked me if I wanted to buy some candy bars. And I said I really wasn't interested.

00:31:32 Speaker_02
They pleaded with me, begged me, please, please, you know, buy a candy bar. They hadn't been selling too many. So I looked at what they had and I ended up buying a candy bar.

00:31:45 Speaker_14
Mrs. Madonia told police that two days before Cleo died, Barry came to their house to see her. They only talked for a couple of minutes, but that evening, her father called Barry on the phone.

00:31:58 Speaker_02
He wanted to know if I was dating his daughter or going out with his daughter, and I told him no, you know, that I didn't even know what he was talking about.

00:32:07 Speaker_08
How many calls did you receive that night? Two. And were they both from the father?

00:32:13 Speaker_02
Yes, they were.

00:32:15 Speaker_08
But did he say stay away from his daughter?

00:32:18 Speaker_02
He said he didn't like me going out with his daughter or something and I told him I wasn't going out with his daughter so he had no worries.

00:32:28 Speaker_08
Did you ever meet her at a roller skating rink?

00:32:31 Speaker_02
No, I didn't.

00:32:32 Speaker_08
Did you ever have any intercourse with her? No, I didn't. Did you ever sell her any marijuana?

00:32:38 Speaker_02
No, I didn't.

00:32:40 Speaker_08
Or any other kind of drugs? No, sir. How about alcohol?

00:32:44 Speaker_02
No.

00:32:44 Speaker_08
You never have?

00:32:45 Speaker_02
No.

00:32:48 Speaker_08
Did Cleo ever tell you anything about herself?

00:32:51 Speaker_02
Never had a conversation with her long enough to even find out anything about her. No.

00:32:56 Speaker_08
Did you ever tell her anything about yourself?

00:32:59 Speaker_02
Yeah, I told her I was a landscaper.

00:33:02 Speaker_08
How about your birthday?

00:33:05 Speaker_02
Probably. I could have said something. I don't know. You know, I definitely, you know, when it's my birthday, I get all excited about it.

00:33:11 Speaker_08
I tell people, you know, do you remember when this could have been when you told her about your birthday?

00:33:17 Speaker_02
It would have been, would have had to have been with the candy bar sale because that was the longest time I ever talked to her.

00:33:27 Speaker_14
In his report, Detective Brown wrote that it was, quote, apparent that Arnold was not telling the truth during this interview. He constantly rubbed his hands together and refused to make eye contact.

00:33:41 Speaker_08
Barry, is there anything else that you wish to add to the statement? No. If we would schedule a polygraph in the future for you to take, would you be willing to take it?

00:33:52 Speaker_02
Yes, I would.

00:33:59 Speaker_14
But Barry never took a polygraph or police. He cancelled on the advice of his lawyer. Cleo's note to Barry that was found in her bathroom trash can said, Cleo never finished that note to Barry.

00:34:21 Speaker_14
After reading about him in the police report, we try contacting Barry Arnold too. He still lives near Marlton, so we knock on his door. There's no answer. We try calling him again. We leave messages, send an email, and then a letter.

00:34:40 Speaker_14
But he never replied. We find out that years after Cleo died, Barry was charged with sexual interference of a minor, not Cleo. He was 32 at the time. The girl was younger than 13.

00:34:56 Speaker_14
Barry had no prior criminal record, so he was able to plead down to avoid jail time. The court documents we find say that Barry paid a $30 violent crime penalty in $5 installments.

00:35:14 Speaker_14
Reading through this police report gives us incredible insight into what was going on in Cleo's life. The toxicology report said there was no trace of drugs or alcohol in Cleo's system.

00:35:26 Speaker_14
There's also no mention in the file of Cleo having been sexually assaulted while hitchhiking. So she likely wasn't the girl in that newspaper article we found at the library.

00:35:38 Speaker_14
Still, at just 13 years old, Cleo was somehow involved with a man more than 10 years older than her. She was increasingly in trouble at home and at school. And that's not all. According to her teachers, Cleo was a child who longed to go home.

00:36:01 Speaker_15
I know that she was adopted by the Medonias and that she was unhappy about having to leave her family in Canada. Her whole life, it seemed, was centered around getting back to her family.

00:36:12 Speaker_15
She said that some of the things that she did, some of the things that she did wrong in school, she probably did because she wanted to hurt the Madonnas, because they had no right to take her away from the family who loved her.

00:36:22 Speaker_15
And that was from Cleo herself. I think she was very, very unhappy living in the United States.

00:36:29 Speaker_15
She was very worried about her family, her original family, her brothers and sisters, what happened to them, where they were, who adopted them, were they okay?

00:36:39 Speaker_14
She hadn't seen them in over four years. But Cleo still worried about Johnny, Annette, April, Mark and Christine.

00:36:48 Speaker_15
I was hugging her because she was upset about something. And I said to her, just keep calm. And she said, no, the government had no right. The government had absolutely no right to let me go.

00:36:58 Speaker_15
They took me away from my family, from my sisters and brothers.

00:37:04 Speaker_14
Cleo wanted more than anything to go home. There it is, written in black and white. On top of the desk in Cleo's room on the day she died, police found a note written on yellow-lined paper. It was short. It said, I'm sorry.

00:37:25 Speaker_14
I love Miss Mazzetti and Miss Horn.

00:37:36 Speaker_08
Due to all leads being exhausted in this matter, along with the nature of the case, with no question as to the death being that of a suicide, case is cleared and closed.

00:37:51 Speaker_10
just in case, like I said, you have copies of everything, so just in case you want some pictures. Are you done with those then?

00:37:56 Speaker_14
Can we just have one more minute with them? Sure, I'll be right back. Thank you, thank you. Our time is up. We have to go. You needed a minute? No, no, I'm good.

00:38:11 Speaker_10
You're welcome, you're welcome. Sorry for your loss. Okay.

00:38:27 Speaker_14
We're quiet leaving the station. Christine has had enough of talking and needs some time to think. Are you done? Do you want to take a break?

00:38:38 Speaker_14
We go back to the hotel and right away I try to find out if Cleo's teachers or her friend Lori Montgomery are still in Marlton. We find out that Lori was killed in a car accident and Miss Musetti has died too. But eventually I find Miss Horn.

00:38:58 Speaker_06
Connie, this is not going to be a very pleasant conversation. Are you aware that Cleo committed suicide? Yes. Yes. Okay. She was one of my students. And she was one of my favorites. She was a wonderful little girl. I loved her.

00:39:24 Speaker_14
You loved her?

00:39:25 Speaker_06
Yes, I did. What else can I tell you about her?

00:39:31 Speaker_14
What was she like?

00:39:33 Speaker_06
Oh, she was so sweet. She was very tall. Very slender, beautiful, dark chestnut hair, wonderful features. And she was so sweet, very kind, real shy, quiet, very quiet, and very, very, very needy.

00:39:53 Speaker_14
You say she was needy. What do you mean by that?

00:39:57 Speaker_06
Cleo was obviously adopted, and she had tried to run away to Canada to find her biological family. because she thought that she was taken away from a family that loved her. And she always tried to get back there and find them.

00:40:12 Speaker_06
Well, she tried to run away twice. And she was, you know, brought back home both times. And she just needed so much from the adults around her. And I don't think she was getting it from her mom and dad.

00:40:29 Speaker_06
And we kind of begged them, begged her parents, take her back to Canada.

00:40:35 Speaker_06
let her see the town that she grew up in, let her walk the street, let her meet some of her family if any of them are still, you know, unadopted and they were still up there or in the general vicinity of where she was a little girl.

00:40:50 Speaker_06
She always thought that she was taken away from a family that loved her. And the parents did not take her home. They refused to take her back to Canada. They wouldn't do it. Did they say why? I don't know.

00:41:03 Speaker_06
I don't know what their reasoning was, why they wouldn't take her back to Canada. But my teaching partner, Louise, and I kind of felt that Cleo needed to see where she grew up. Why do you think Cleo took her own life?

00:41:18 Speaker_06
Well, to be perfectly honest, the last day before the break, I called her on the phone from the school nurse's office. I remember the conversation completely. And I thanked her for sending in a Christmas gift. I still have it.

00:41:33 Speaker_06
She sent me a little stuffed Snoopy. And I have it in my guest room right now as we speak. She sent me the present and I called her from the nurse's office and I said, Cleo, honey, everything will be fine. Just, you know, have a quiet, restful vacation.

00:41:50 Speaker_06
and you'll start fresh a whole new slate in january when everybody comes back to school everything will be good your suspension will be over and you start fresh and new and and everything will be fine and uh... apparently uh... or a couple of hours later uh... she tried to run away again and she was she was caught again she had tried to pay some young man with a pickup truck to take her back to canada and

00:42:21 Speaker_06
Later on, after the whole thing had gone down, they found her brother's jacket floating in a creek in Marlton, New Jersey, I think, or somewhere close by. Ms.

00:42:34 Speaker_14
Horne says she thinks that on the day Cleo died, she tried to run away back to Canada. There's no mention of it in the police report. Could it be true? Why was Cleo wearing her brother's jacket in the parking lot of that nearby school?

00:42:49 Speaker_14
What was she doing there? Did she have a plan to try to get back to Saskatchewan that fell through? Is that why she did it? We may never know for sure.

00:43:00 Speaker_06
Louise and I were called into the police station because Cleo left a suicide note. And the only thing it said was, I'm sorry. I love Miss Musetti and Miss Horn. That's all the note said. And it kind of threw me.

00:43:18 Speaker_06
You know, I'm... I still have things of hers. As a matter of fact, I had the kids bring into school an old shirt, a long-sleeved shirt that they could wear while we were using paints and crayons and things like that, and I still wear Cleo's shirt.

00:43:37 Speaker_06
I still have that shirt. I still think of her. I adored her. And, you know, I just... I'm still so distraught whenever anybody brings up her name.

00:43:55 Speaker_14
It's been 40 years since she was interviewed by police about Cleo's death, but Ms. Horn's story has not changed.

00:44:02 Speaker_06
Absolutely. She tried her darndest to get back to Canada and see her family. She did everything within her power to get back there. She was taken away against, you know, her mother's will against her will and her brothers and sisters.

00:44:16 Speaker_06
I mean, they, they separated the whole family. You don't do that. You just don't do that. And she was, she was acting out. I mean, look at the vodka that she brought into the, into the school building. You know, she was, she was acting out.

00:44:34 Speaker_06
She was crying for, for somebody to pay attention to her. And when I talked to her on the phone, she seemed like everything was going to be OK. And something happened between the morning and the afternoon at that point.

00:44:54 Speaker_06
I have no idea how she went from the phone conversation with me to getting a hold of one of her father's guns. And it's always been absolutely a mystery to me. I know why she did it. But I was just so shocked that she did it.

00:45:12 Speaker_14
What would you want her family to know about her?

00:45:17 Speaker_06
Oh, boy. She was beautiful. She was just a lovely little girl. Lovely. I miss her. I do. Every time I put her shirt on to work around my house, I miss her.

00:45:34 Speaker_14
I find it kind of surprising that you still have little mementos like the gift that she gave you and the shirt.

00:45:42 Speaker_06
I'm never going to part with them. I mean, you don't go through 32 years of teaching and lose a little one like Cleo and not keep something around to remind you of her. She was too good a little girl for that.

00:46:03 Speaker_06
And she basically was pushed into that, I think. I'll keep it forever.

00:46:16 Speaker_14
Miss Horn still regrets that she wasn't able to do more for Cleo. She still seems upset with the Madonias for not taking her back to Canada to visit.

00:46:26 Speaker_14
But Mrs. Madonia told me that she did try to connect Cleo with Johnny in Pennsylvania when she was having trouble, but that the adoption agency wouldn't help. How could any of them have known what was to come?

00:46:42 Speaker_06
It was terrible at the time. I mean, there was no resolution. There was no closure. You know, there was no full circle for this little girl because there were too many dead ends. There were too many questions.

00:47:00 Speaker_14
Before we leave New Jersey, Christine wants to visit Cleo's grave.

00:47:54 Speaker_07
Hmm.

00:48:08 Speaker_05
She didn't want to be here. She knew where home was. I know, I've always known that. I've always known that she knows where her home was and this was not her choice. for the last four decades and whatnot, there was a big part of my life missing, right?

00:48:25 Speaker_05
And unknown. The unknown for me was my sister Cleo being out here somewhere on the planet and wondering where the people who loved her were, why they didn't come to see her. Yeah.

00:48:38 Speaker_14
So how do you feel as you're about to do that?

00:48:42 Speaker_05
Well, she's probably happy.

00:48:44 Speaker_05
Like, I know she's always been a part of me and a part of us, but to know that, you know, to account for where she is and that we can come and visit her and then in the future, you know, I can make, come bring my kids here.

00:48:56 Speaker_05
It's just a completeness because she's not unaccounted for. Yeah. Because when you have a circle and there's a little piece missing, it's just kind of searching.

00:49:13 Speaker_05
But now that, now that I found, now that I found everybody, I don't have to wonder anymore. I don't have to look for her anymore. I don't have to worry about her.

00:49:42 Speaker_14
Christine has brought the flowers from the night she was reunited with Johnny and leaves them at Cleo's grave. She has the answers she's always wanted about her sister's life and death.

00:49:57 Speaker_14
But she can't help but think about what should have happened to Cleo, to their mother, and to generations of Indigenous kids who are still being separated from the people they love.

00:50:12 Speaker_05
And I think that the government should have left her with my grandmother, with extended family. And I believe that Native children have no place anywhere but in a Native home and a Native community.

00:50:27 Speaker_05
And I think my mother would have wanted us all to be together and find each other. My mother had a hard life. We had a hard life because of her life. It just continued on and continued on, but generations of trauma.

00:50:52 Speaker_04
But this is good, because my kids will never have to wonder where she is, you know?

00:51:00 Speaker_05
They won't have to say, I have an aunt who's missing. She's not missing anymore, you know? The thing that saddens me the most about this process was the value of a Canadian girl, Plains Creek girl, to the government. She had no value. Forget about her.

00:51:26 Speaker_05
They show me repeatedly what her worth is.

00:51:35 Speaker_04
But she is invaluable to us. In life and in death, I think a promise is a promise. And I always keep my promises. So.

00:51:53 Speaker_05
I'm very happy. I know it doesn't look like I'm happy, but I'm very happy. This is a good day. It's a good day today. Very good day.

00:52:27 Speaker_14
Finding Cleo is written and hosted by me, Connie Walker. It's produced by Marnie Luke and Jennifer Fowler. Mika Anderson is our audio producer, and our senior producer is Heather Evans.

00:52:41 Speaker_14
A special thanks to everyone who helped with the voicing in this episode. Fiona Fairbairn, Michelle Cataquapit, Stephen Abbott, Shannon Petrolito, Sarah Neville, Mary Wiens, David Freeman, Jesse Todd, and Jeff Douglas.

00:52:57 Speaker_14
And of course, a special thank you to this Magnus family. For a full list of people we'd like to thank for their contribution, visit our website at cbc.ca slash finding Cleo. Thank you for listening to Missing and Murdered, Finding Cleo.

00:54:51 Speaker_05
Sitting in Newark, New Jersey airport waiting to come home. This has been the most life-affirming week of my life. I saw my brother again after 45 years. I found my sister's resting place and brought her a gift. My sister was not murdered.

00:55:08 Speaker_05
She took her own life. She knew where she lived and who loved her. I got to meet her friends, read letters she wrote, pictures she drew, and she came to life in all she left behind.

00:55:21 Speaker_05
She was a very intelligent young woman who made a choice in a life of no choices. One quote from her I will always remember is, the government had no right to do this. Across time, at the age of 13, she knew this.

00:55:36 Speaker_05
She could not reconcile the anguish of being separated from her siblings, including me who was just a baby, when we were stolen from her entire family on the Little Pine Poundmaker Reserve.

00:55:47 Speaker_05
Native American children should be raised by their own people in their own communities. It was the ultimate act of assimilation for us to be part of the Sixty Scoop. It was one of the most horrific social experiments in Canadian history.

00:56:01 Speaker_05
The government had no right to do this. We will no longer be silent.