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Episode: Recovery and Hope: A conversation with Dr Courtney McKeown

Author: Michelle Chestovich MD
Duration: 01:10:47

Episode Shownotes

Physician coach Michelle Chestovich MD has a conversation with surgeon Dr Courtney McKeown and she shares her incredible story of overcoming struggle. It will give you hope no matter what you are going through. You are not alone and help is available.If you need immediate help, please call 988.

Ways to connect with Dr Courtney McKeown:Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/courtney.barrowsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/courtb_mckeown_mdLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/courtney-barrows-mckeown-md/ Physician Support Line: 1 (888) 409-0141Psychiatrists helping our US physician and medical student colleagues navigate the many intersections of our personal and professional lives.Free, Confidential & AnonymousNo appointment necessaryCall for any issue, not just a crisisWe report to no oneOpen Monday to Friday (except federal holidays)8:00 AM - 12:00 AM ET

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_00
You are listening to Episode 180 of the Remind Yourself Podcast. Welcome to the Remind Yourself Podcast, the podcast for physician moms just like you who want to ditch mom guilt, stop yelling, and start enjoying their lives today.

00:00:21 Speaker_00
I'm your host, Rachelle Chestevich, certified life coach, family physician, and mom of four. If you want to overcome overwhelm for once and for all, this is the place for you. Hello, Mama Docs, and welcome back.

00:00:39 Speaker_00
Today, I am having a conversation with an amazing surgeon who is gonna share how she has been through an awful lot of struggle in her life, and yet she's learned to overcome, and her story is gonna inspire you.

00:00:53 Speaker_00
No matter where you are and what position in life, what kind of things you have going on, her story is going to inspire you that you're not alone and that help is available. So without further ado, welcome Dr. Courtney McKeown.

00:01:10 Speaker_01
Thank you, Michelle. Appreciate you having me on.

00:01:12 Speaker_00
So I learned about Courtney several months ago. One of my fellow coach friends, Dr. Amy Vertres, had Courtney on her podcast and they are both surgeons. And I heard Courtney's incredible story.

00:01:25 Speaker_00
And so I reached out and said, your story needs to be heard by my listeners. So before we get into all the details, tell us a little bit about you and how you decided to go into surgery. I think that might be a fun place to start.

00:01:39 Speaker_01
Yeah, I love that question, especially because I think when I decided, I don't think I really knew myself very well.

00:01:44 Speaker_01
And so in some ways I consider myself really lucky that I actually really did find the specialty of choice or career of choice for me. My name is Courtney McEwen. I am a general surgeon, board certified, currently living in Columbia, Tennessee.

00:01:58 Speaker_01
I'm part of Columbia Surgical Partners, which is Dr. Vertrees' practice. There's three female general surgeons and then we also have a nurse practitioner. So yeah.

00:02:07 Speaker_00
Awesome.

00:02:08 Speaker_01
I just joined there about six weeks ago. So I'm just starting to see patients and stuff like that, which has been fun, but I'm originally from Massachusetts and pretty much was in new England.

00:02:17 Speaker_01
To be honest, most of my life, you know, went to college at BC spent a couple of years working before I went to med school, which was in New York. And then I did my residency training at Beth Israel Deaconess in Boston.

00:02:29 Speaker_01
I was there for eight years because of the, we have a research component to a lot of the academic residencies. And then after the residency, I graduated in June of 2020. So it was kind of peak of the pandemic, especially in Boston.

00:02:42 Speaker_01
And I moved to Cleveland for a fellowship in hepatobiliary pancreas surgery. And I've had, so I think in terms of, you know,

00:02:52 Speaker_01
Think struggles I've had is mainly with a lot of anxiety, probably most of my life, honestly, just really didn't get diagnosed until I started having issues with substance use disorder during my residency happened during my research time.

00:03:05 Speaker_01
And initially that was a stimulant addiction, but alcohol, as I. As I can look back now, I can tell, you know, even back when I first started drinking in college, that I really never had a normal relationship with alcohol.

00:03:17 Speaker_01
It was always something I used to either feel less social anxiety when I went to stuff or obviously as a numbing agent. And my off switch was like terribly calibrated pretty much most of my life.

00:03:29 Speaker_01
I mean, I wouldn't be an everyday drinker and obviously it took a while for me to even realize that was an issue because, you know, I'm,

00:03:35 Speaker_01
kind of plugging along and being successful in my career and, you know, graduating top, you know, near top of my class in med school and getting all the awards and all of the things that you, you know, I know you can relate to.

00:03:47 Speaker_01
But anyways, so that initially, you know, fortunately at the time when I had the struggles in residency, you know, I had a supportive program and also there weren't like patient care issues because I was in research time.

00:03:58 Speaker_01
So I initially got some treatment and, you know, it was sort of doing okay. Like I wasn't using or drinking, but I really never worked a recovery program and then when I moved to Cleveland with my husband, you know, we don't have family there.

00:04:11 Speaker_01
There was definitely that, I definitely had some residual burnout for sure from just the You know, utter chaos that, you know, was COVID in Boston that I probably never, I honestly probably still haven't fully unpackaged.

00:04:24 Speaker_01
And then, you know, went into this fellowship and, you know, it's just every time you go somewhere and you start a new job or you start, even if it's a new fellowship where, you know, they, they do want you to succeed.

00:04:34 Speaker_01
You still have to reprove yourself. And that was really hard for me to handle that adjustment. I'll just say that. I mean, I think looking back now.

00:04:42 Speaker_01
I always wonder like how it would have been if I had actually been coached during that time, because I thought that they hated me and that they thought I was terrible. And then of course I thought I was terrible.

00:04:51 Speaker_01
And it was really just because I wasn't getting like the in your face external validation that I had been used to, you know, in my, my residency training.

00:04:58 Speaker_01
So long story short that eventually I couldn't really handle that very well and wasn't working a good recovery program.

00:05:03 Speaker_01
So I started drinking wine, which is a big no, no, if you're being monitored, obviously on a contract and it didn't take very long that I was basically drinking it at home. You know, no.

00:05:13 Speaker_01
know, in hospital stuff at that point, you know, but it did show up in a urine test eventually.

00:05:17 Speaker_01
And so then that was, that was really where things, I think, for me, really hit rock bottom, which we can certainly get into, but I'll just sort of pause there.

00:05:25 Speaker_00
There were so many things that I just want to amplify or reiterate. Number one, that training is very challenging, and that feeling of needing to prove yourself is so common, right?

00:05:37 Speaker_00
Like we high achievers, we're used to getting the gold stars and the good grades. I mean, you mentioned this external validation. And then you go somewhere new, and it's like, you've got to do it again.

00:05:44 Speaker_00
And if you start to have these negative thought patterns, which, of course, as physicians, we do, you can just like get into this vicious cycle of like, they don't like me, I have to prove myself, work harder. And then you're so stressed all the time.

00:05:57 Speaker_00
For many of us, a coping mechanism is coming home and like chilling the F out with a glass of wine, right? I mean, sort of hearing that that was kind of a pattern for you.

00:06:04 Speaker_00
I just like to normalize that like, I think a lot of us physicians are more prone to anxiety because anxiety gets us going and studying because we don't want to screw up on a test. So it gets us going and it helps us to a point.

00:06:15 Speaker_00
But I just love to normalize like it's not a problem that people have anxiety and there are ways that you can get help. Not if you notice that you have this relationship where you're needing to feel better.

00:06:24 Speaker_00
Like help is available, I mean, and then it becomes habitual. Like I remember driving home from work and I'd start salivating, like thinking about a glass of wine after a busy day. I was like, well, this is interesting.

00:06:35 Speaker_00
Like I'm turning Pavlov's dog, right? So it can start like that, but it can be a slippery slope, right? Because of huge addictive potential. So what are your thoughts on that?

00:06:45 Speaker_01
Yeah, I mean, I think that I love that concept to that anxiety, like, it doesn't have to be a bad thing.

00:06:50 Speaker_01
And in fact, it's a mechanism in a way, it's just like you said, a spectrum, it doesn't affect your daily functioning, where you're avoiding doing things like paying bills.

00:07:00 Speaker_01
And trust me, I still sometimes will, you know, I still can, I'm a lot better now. But I definitely And I'm not perfect. It's also I think, as a, as a surgeon, you know, especially as an early career surgeon, I still have a lot of anxiety about cases.

00:07:15 Speaker_01
And if I'm going to be good enough, since that that does cause me to prepare more, you know, yeah, that's a good thing, as long as you don't take it into overdrive, and it's paralyzing. And

00:07:25 Speaker_01
So i think that yeah it's it doesn't have to be a bad thing when we're aware of it i love your uh i know i've heard this before and like other coaching stuff just like that noticing it oh isn't that so interesting i'm feeling that way you know yeah i mean it's like oh okay this is great or now it's getting into hyperdrive because you're right it does serve us to a point because if i never understood those people who are so bad laid back like oh well i don't care i'm like oh my god like i don't

00:07:46 Speaker_00
I don't understand what it would be like to be so like chill laying on a beach, right? You're just like a beach bum, which that's great if that's your whatever life, but most of us physicians are not that. So we're more prone to it.

00:07:57 Speaker_00
But like, again, you mentioned like, oh, I wish I had coaching, which again, is my mission to like get it everywhere. Let's just make it part of the package, right? As a preventive care doctor.

00:08:06 Speaker_01
I mean, I grew up playing sports all my life and still a huge sports fan. I mean, I don't, it's, you know, being 40 years old now, it's like, I'm not going to be going out playing pick up basketball with people. Although, uh,

00:08:17 Speaker_01
I am doing a little bit of a friendly competition with a little pickleball practitioners. Yeah. A little, a little lot of 21, you know, competition and just some friendly trash talk.

00:08:25 Speaker_01
But my point is just that I always love that concept of, you know, thinking of ourselves, you know, surgeons as elite athletes too.

00:08:32 Speaker_01
And, you know, everybody who's a. Most of the professional teams, like their players are actually required to see a sports psychologist. It's not even a, an optional thing, which I think.

00:08:43 Speaker_01
You know, I've talked to some people about that at some meetings, you know, saying, why can't we just, I mean, if there's stigma about it, okay, well then just have everybody do it. Yeah, let's just normalize it.

00:08:53 Speaker_00
Like, oh, here's your parking card, here's your badge, and here's your coach that you're going to be meeting with a couple times.

00:08:58 Speaker_01
Yeah, and like, if they want to say, okay, well, some people don't have mental health issues, I think some people probably are in denial, first of all, but also fine, then have them see a coach instead.

00:09:05 Speaker_01
You know, do one, you have to do one or the other.

00:09:07 Speaker_00
Correct.

00:09:07 Speaker_01
Therapist or coach, if you want to do both, that's even better. But I understand, you know, I had also thought about this a little bit just in residency, would I have benefited from it? Like, because you have to be open to it.

00:09:20 Speaker_01
You have to want to do it and want to get, you know, it's just like anything else in life. You will get what you put into it. I don't know at that time if I would have had the mental capacity to like really embrace it.

00:09:32 Speaker_01
Cause of my mind was just surgery, surgery, surgery, surgery.

00:09:35 Speaker_00
If you don't know a whole lot about it, it might seem a little like soft. I don't know. That's sort of what I thought. I'm like, well, I don't need anything. Like we all have this sort of like just work a little harder mentality.

00:09:43 Speaker_02
Right.

00:09:44 Speaker_00
But I love it when you think of yourself. And I think that's exactly it. You're an elite athlete.

00:09:49 Speaker_00
And I just did a podcast a couple of weeks ago about the Olympics and how they all have, number one, amazing coaches that support them in the highs and the lows. And like Simone Biles is such a beautiful, badass example of taking care of her brain.

00:10:03 Speaker_00
The morning that she got gold for the all-around, she had a call with her therapist. I love that. She's so open about it. And again, we just need to normalize these conversations.

00:10:13 Speaker_00
It's been in executive offices and, of course, athletics for years to have coaching. And again, it's new and it's coming into medicine. But again, we don't need to segue all into that.

00:10:22 Speaker_00
But just so people who are listening, if you're a little skeptical, even this amazing surgeon is like, yeah, that can be helpful. Yeah.

00:10:29 Speaker_00
I love that you're being honest like i'm not sure i was ready for it back then okay great so now i will say though is like.

00:10:35 Speaker_01
You know i was forced into it a little bit because once i had the substance use disorder diagnosed you know then.

00:10:42 Speaker_01
Once you, you know, my program director appropriately, so wanted me to be evaluated by the physician health program, because I mean, I had a psychotic episode as a result of taking too much amphetamines.

00:10:52 Speaker_01
And if you don't know why someone had, I mean, that in and of itself is like, okay, that person probably should be in a monitoring program and not, it's not about, it doesn't have to be a punitive thing.

00:11:02 Speaker_01
Like I didn't have medical board involvement at that time. But, you know, I mean, they do drug test you, yes, but they also are, you know, requiring you.

00:11:11 Speaker_01
And this is the key thing, honestly, which ended up, by the way, probably saving my life a few years later.

00:11:15 Speaker_01
They require you to see a psychiatrist and or a therapist that are specialized in addiction and preferably ones that have experience treating physicians.

00:11:26 Speaker_01
because we have a lot of other barriers that are, I think, you know, causes to seek help, but also get benefit from it.

00:11:33 Speaker_01
So what I was meaning to say in terms of this was just that I started seeing a therapist in my last year of research, and then going into my PGY four year and then throughout the rest of my residency for the next two years.

00:11:44 Speaker_01
And that was just a requirement, like I had to do it. And so obviously, We figured it out schedule wise and I would go. I found it helpful to honestly just be fairly transparent with why I'm going.

00:11:55 Speaker_01
I wasn't quite as vocal about it as I am obviously today, but I didn't really care about telling my co residents. Yeah, like, I had like a drug issue and I need to go see a therapist once a week. So this is why I'm leaving, you know, to go.

00:12:06 Speaker_00
do that i'm not flaking out but i just have to do it but the point is i just want to pause right there i don't mean to interrupt you but like that is so incredible we need more of that in medicine because we have brains we are humans and addiction is not a fault of character it's a brain problem

00:12:24 Speaker_01
The reason I think I was able to do that is I knew I had the support of my program director.

00:12:28 Speaker_01
So, like, she kind of encouraged me to, like, if I felt comfortable, like, you know, telling people why I went, because she knew I was also the type that I would rather people not know, think that I was just flaking out.

00:12:38 Speaker_01
I had obviously been there for, you know, at that point I was a PGY4, so I was a senior resident and, you know, I did have a little bit of a, How would I put this? I don't know, like a little bit of a swagger to me.

00:12:48 Speaker_01
So like, I was sort of like, well, what are they going to say? Like, I'm one of the best, you know, I felt like I was one of the best residents in that program. So like, go for it.

00:12:55 Speaker_01
If they wanted to, you know, say something, you know, I sort of had that attitude, which was, you know, maybe a little bit, a little bit too egotistical as well, but at any rate, like that helped.

00:13:04 Speaker_01
But also I knew like, if someone was going to give me crap about it, I could always go talk to her and say, look, you know, so that sort of set a safe foundation for me to know that.

00:13:14 Speaker_01
Some of an easy conversation and yeah, like, I just really, I know that there are some people probably who I never will know that were through our program that had issues as well, because she seemed pretty well versed in this stuff and I don't know.

00:13:24 Speaker_01
I mean, I think. I can understand why people don't want to talk about it, but then in some ways, I'm like, well. That allowed me to have such better relationships with people, honestly.

00:13:35 Speaker_01
Like when they saw I wasn't just this like machine who just, you know, worked all the time and operated.

00:13:40 Speaker_00
You're human.

00:13:41 Speaker_01
Like I'm actually human. And then they would tell me things and creating connections with people. I mean, not as many people can relate to somebody who just literally feels like no emotions and just keeps going, going, going.

00:13:51 Speaker_01
And, but anyway, so I guess my point though, it's sort of.

00:13:54 Speaker_01
Going back, I get on a little bit of a tangent, but is I go to the therapist and once I was there, well, I don't know, probably at least like once every other time I would just break down and bawling crying.

00:14:04 Speaker_01
And I had no, no idea why, but it was a safe place to be able to do that.

00:14:07 Speaker_00
Cause I wasn't going to do it in the hospital, you know, because you've been shoving those emotions down, deal with a lot of trauma. Yeah, and we shove it down.

00:14:16 Speaker_00
So it is good to have a safe place because it's going to come out at some point or come out sideways in some weird way. Right.

00:14:22 Speaker_01
And at that point, things were like stable. You know, it wasn't like I was doing like crisis control. I mean, obviously, initially, yes. But, you know, seeing somebody on a regular basis.

00:14:30 Speaker_01
As you know as a coach you be surprised the little things that come up that can because our brains are a little bit mind of their own so to speak.

00:14:38 Speaker_00
Well they get a little trigger that good old amygdala is a watchdog. Oh yeah.

00:14:44 Speaker_00
And there are things that come up that just fire us into this sympathetic overload and the crisis can be right back even though it's not a crisis it could be the way someone looks at you the what they say, a smell, whatever, right?

00:14:54 Speaker_00
Like the brain remembers. And so like, even though like you've maybe been through the fire, like your brain, it really just helps to build a process that I think, again, I'm not a trauma therapist. Trauma therapists are great. Sometimes we need that.

00:15:05 Speaker_00
But just to be have someone listen and normalize and have a safe place to be able to allow things to come out, I think can be helpful. It sounds like it was for you. So now you're in your fourth year. Tell us then where we go from here.

00:15:18 Speaker_01
Yeah, I mean, everything seemingly on the outside was going really well. You know, I related a lot, you know, sort of, again, gave me a little bit of chills.

00:15:26 Speaker_01
I related a lot to your sister's story, Gretchen, just cause I got a lot of the awards and really, you know, did, did very well clinically those next two years.

00:15:36 Speaker_01
I was definitely not, the other part of this is that, you know, yes, I had some anxiety and obviously I think as physicians, you know, we are. As you mentioned, you deal with a lot of trauma, but I have a substance use disorder too.

00:15:49 Speaker_01
I mean, I have a substance use disorder. It's just managed now. And I wasn't managing it very well. Like I was doing things to check boxes, like, okay, the therapy I think did help.

00:15:59 Speaker_01
But in terms of, you also have to go to meetings, you know, like a recovery meetings, whatever that's.

00:16:04 Speaker_01
you know, some sort of 12 step meeting or smart recovery, you know, but something, so you're, you know, getting that aspect of it too, which, which by the way, is very synergistic with therapy and coaching.

00:16:13 Speaker_01
So I've honestly found every time I like add something to the arsenal, it's just another little, little tool in my toolbox. Um, but they, they really do align pretty well, but I was not working a program. I didn't have a sponsor.

00:16:25 Speaker_01
I was just sort of going to the meeting saying I went, didn't really, you know, engage too much. And that part's really important. If you, if you truly have addiction issues, it's, it's so important.

00:16:34 Speaker_01
I mean, my story is a perfect example of what happens when you don't do it.

00:16:38 Speaker_01
And then what happens when you do, and this is me on recovery, not drugs or alcohol, you know, like, and I'm able to handle now things, you know, life on life's terms, as I call it, I guess, you know, it's just sort of.

00:16:50 Speaker_01
Not everything is rainbows and unicorns. A lot of things, obviously my life got a lot better once I started doing the right thing.

00:16:58 Speaker_01
And taking care of myself, but life happens to man obviously that happened a little bit later in a couple years in my recovery and i've been able to manage things that normally would have sent me into if not drinking again into like a mental tizzy you know and just.

00:17:13 Speaker_01
not been able to function because life is hard.

00:17:15 Speaker_00
I'm just going to pause you for a second and say like life is freaking hard and you learn some amazing tools with the recovery program and like coaching teaches us things.

00:17:24 Speaker_00
A lot of people are still running around in life just like living very reactively and so stressed out and overwhelmed. And I know what that's like. It feels horrible.

00:17:32 Speaker_01
It does. Yeah.

00:17:33 Speaker_00
And we know that that can lead to big problems. Because again, my listeners have heard my sister's story. Things just got to be too much. I mean, that was a very complex thing as well. It's never a straightforward issue.

00:17:42 Speaker_00
But so what I'm hearing you say is you were going through residency, you were going to therapy, checking the boxes, but not really actively doing recovery. Is that how you would say that? Yeah, I would say that.

00:17:53 Speaker_01
I was definitely going to be a relapse waiting to happen for sure. And they say that in, you know, in meetings. I mean, it's true.

00:17:59 Speaker_01
Like you can usually, if you observe somebody, you know, you're in recovery yourself, you can tell someone's going to relapse like months before it really happens, like physically relapse, because they're, they're just not, uh, I know they're just not as engaged in like that, that stuff.

00:18:12 Speaker_01
That's what I believe. I know that everybody has a different journey. And some people, you know, don't, don't even use a program, they're able to just stop and sort of use other modalities. I just, I know what works for me. Also, stop doing that.

00:18:27 Speaker_01
But, yeah, I think that I was in a, remember, I was in a very supportive residency program at that point, I had earned a lot of respect from people. So I was getting enough of my

00:18:37 Speaker_01
little dopamine rushes through external validation and awards and you know doing these badass surgeries and matching into this really prestigious fellowship program that you know only has like 15 spots a year if that and you know i matched into like one of my top choices and so you know i was getting all the things that i thought would make me happy

00:18:59 Speaker_01
And I think I learned later as I started doing some more obviously self-discovery work after the relapse and after going into, you know, addiction treatment that I was sort of living this, uh, what I put it, I guess I was trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole, you know, chasing accomplishments and, um, but not really being totally true to myself in terms of what my values were.

00:19:19 Speaker_01
And I don't even think I knew what my values were. which sort of gets back to the surgery question or why I went into it. I mean, I don't know.

00:19:26 Speaker_01
I honestly, when I was in med school doing my third year rotations and I honored every single rotation, but surgery was the only thing I guess I liked doing.

00:19:35 Speaker_01
And I could just personality wise, you know, I'm fairly, um, despite this, maybe this conversation, I'm usually fairly to the point when it comes to stuff clinically and like to be able to actually do something and not, not just, um,

00:19:49 Speaker_01
You know, I don't, I'm not very patient. So I don't know, I guess that worked, that worked well. I just matched with the personalities, I guess, too. That was like the big thing.

00:19:55 Speaker_01
And I obviously loved operating, but it never, that whole lifestyle thing never really fazed me because again, I think my priorities too, were a little bit out of whack.

00:20:04 Speaker_01
Like I never, I figured, oh, okay, well, if I want to have kids, you know, I'll figure it out. But I also saw some surgeons who obviously did do that, but you know, I didn't really put a lot of thought into it.

00:20:14 Speaker_01
It was just like, okay, well, this is the only thing I really liked. So I'll do this.

00:20:17 Speaker_00
And I think when you're young and excited about something, you just think like, oh, I'll figure it out, right? Like I figured everything else out. I'm doing all these challenging things. Like I'll figure it out down the road.

00:20:26 Speaker_00
I just have to pause for a second and say like, I love that you had these beautiful mentors around you. Women, I mean, men can be mentors certainly too.

00:20:33 Speaker_00
Like I had some amazing male mentors, but I'm thinking back to like my surgery rotation in medical school. I loved all of the things, which is probably why I landed in family medicine.

00:20:42 Speaker_00
But in my surgery rotation at the University of Minnesota, like I think there was one woman. And so I just didn't see that example. I went into medical school thinking I was going to be a cardiothoracic surgeon. This is going to be amazing.

00:20:53 Speaker_00
I mean, clearly I transferred into something different, but I just love that the tides are turning and that there were amazing women mentors for you and that you and Amy and all these other amazing surgeons that I've met are mentors for this next generation.

00:21:08 Speaker_00
My youngest may have said to me, I think I want to be a surgeon. And now I'm like, yeah, because I have people who I can hook you up with. I'm cool with that. Right.

00:21:14 Speaker_01
And actually it's funny, I mean, I really didn't, I guess what I say in med school, my biggest mentor was a male and there were some female residents, but like the program was so malignant, you know?

00:21:25 Speaker_01
And the other thing is I think in med school too, you know, I know that they're sort of trying to do a little bit more of an integrated thing where you're not necessarily on the service all the time. You know, I don't know.

00:21:35 Speaker_01
I was, we had the Harvard med students in residency and it's nothing against them. It's just that they oftentimes would have to leave to go do like their primary care or something.

00:21:44 Speaker_01
And I feel like, especially for surgery, unless you really, and this, I think that's honestly what sometimes may explain the attrition rate is you need to really understand what you're getting yourself into. Because, I mean, I love surgery.

00:21:59 Speaker_01
I, you know. It's like, I think somebody said, like, put me in the operating room, just leave me there. You know, I was described as a person that residency would like go skipping to the OR, you know, to do a case.

00:22:09 Speaker_00
You need that energy to get through the training and the passion.

00:22:14 Speaker_01
I think like, so it really needs to be aligned with what you, um, you feel like your calling is. And I do know that that part, I was not, uh, I was definitely, you know, I did know that at least.

00:22:25 Speaker_00
Yeah, that spark and that drive was there, otherwise you wouldn't have done it. So now you've made it to this very prestigious fellowship, Cleveland, I think you said.

00:22:33 Speaker_01
Yeah.

00:22:34 Speaker_00
Tell us what happened from there.

00:22:36 Speaker_01
Well, yeah, again, I hadn't seen my family. I think I may have seen them before I left. I remember it was like a weird time with like, I don't know if people had everybody gotten vaccinated.

00:22:44 Speaker_00
So this was in now what, 2021?

00:22:47 Speaker_01
This is in August of 2020. Well, we moved in July of 2020 because I graduated residency in 2020. I was also that group of chief residents where we took the

00:22:55 Speaker_01
Our qualifying exam for our boards was a virtual test because of covid and it, like, system totally failed. So, like, we had to basically cancel the test a lot of weird little it was a weird time. It was a weird time. But I, again, I think, um.

00:23:10 Speaker_01
We didn't have any family out there. I didn't see my family for, we didn't go anywhere for Thanksgiving. I think we went to my husband's family for Christmas time of that year because my parents had COVID.

00:23:20 Speaker_01
So like, again, it was sort of a, I hadn't seen my family since, probably since June of 2020. Like when I, you know, when I was in fellowship, I didn't see them at all. So that was part of it.

00:23:30 Speaker_01
I think we didn't have a good support system, but I also wasn't using my support system either.

00:23:35 Speaker_01
And again, once you get, like, I think we talked about just in terms of how I really just didn't, couldn't really mentally, emotionally handle just the change in environment and the lack of validation I at least thought I wasn't getting.

00:23:47 Speaker_01
And so again, I don't know, maybe sometime in that winter, I started drinking wine at home, got caught eventually pretty quickly. I still remember that first, that last case that I did, it was a robotic esophagectomy.

00:23:58 Speaker_01
which wasn't even really a part of our training. It just happened to be like a piece that I was doing at one of the community hospitals.

00:24:04 Speaker_01
And I made that mistake of like scrubbing out to go to the bathroom and had that, you know, like a gazillion missed calls from the physician health program in Ohio. And I knew this was bad.

00:24:16 Speaker_01
So they obviously told me I had a positive urine test is they test you for these metabolites that stay in your urine for like three to five days after you drink. So it's not like, you know, and I knew I had,

00:24:26 Speaker_01
This is where it's so crazy is that I've been drinking wine, you kind of get a little bit riskier and riskier with the behavior because that's sort of how the disease takes over.

00:24:35 Speaker_01
So I knew I was getting tested every week, you know, and I think it was a Wednesday at this point when this happened, clearly I was going to get tested on Thursday or Friday.

00:24:43 Speaker_01
So either way, I was probably not going to, it wasn't going to be good if I drank Wednesday night and I didn't anyway, you know, so.

00:24:50 Speaker_01
And of course, the next day I had the urine test and then it was like a couple weeks after that was when I found out it was positive. And obviously, so at that point, you have to stop working. The EAP at the hospital also was involved.

00:25:03 Speaker_01
And so they were like, you know, we have already talked to your program director and you're on a medical leave. And I was just terrified. I remember sitting in the parking garage of that hospital after the case was over.

00:25:14 Speaker_01
not knowing what to do, felt very trapped, like into a corner and trying to think, Oh, is there some way I can like make an excuse to get out of this or something? And I was like, Oh no, cause I've still been drinking after that.

00:25:25 Speaker_01
It's not like I could even, you know what I mean? And then I just remember feeling so tired and I was just like, you know, I do know that I need treatment. Like this has been an ongoing thing.

00:25:34 Speaker_01
My husband had known for a long time because he noticed when I would, I would hide stuff, you know, I would hide it or I would. drink in the parking lot before I would come home and then he would smell the wine, you know, and it was just like awful.

00:25:45 Speaker_01
You know, I was constantly lying to him anyways. And our marriage was, you know, was really struggling as a result of that. And I was just like, you know, I'm just exhausted. And so I thought, okay, well, I guess, you know, I can go to treatment.

00:26:00 Speaker_01
But then of course you find out all the consequences that are subsequently going to happen. But I didn't even talk to anybody for like five days or so. Like I was terrified to call the PHP back.

00:26:09 Speaker_01
I don't remember when I started talking to my psychiatrist about it. That was like the one saving grace because I had been working with the same man who was my psychiatrist in Boston. They allowed me to keep him because again, COVID.

00:26:20 Speaker_01
So they let me do telehealth and stuff and not have to switch providers. So I had been working with a psychiatrist for three years and had developed a very trusting relationship.

00:26:30 Speaker_01
And so at some point, you know, in the next three days, I did call him and tell him what happened. He was the only person I told.

00:26:36 Speaker_01
I was terrified to tell my husband, even though he knew because I was basically terrified to tell him that he moved out here for no reason. And basically I just ruined everything and maybe ruined both of our lives.

00:26:48 Speaker_01
Once I realized that in the state I was in at the time, so Ohio used to be very punitive.

00:26:52 Speaker_01
So if you had a relapse and you were being monitored, even if there wasn't any patient care issues, you were looking at an automatic license suspension because the PHP was mandated.

00:27:01 Speaker_01
You know, it's not, it was just the policies at the time they were mandated to report any positive tests to the medical board and the medical board doesn't treat, they just discipline. That's like their treatment, you know?

00:27:11 Speaker_01
So I knew I was looking at a license suspension, which for me, like somebody who never got into trouble or

00:27:17 Speaker_01
had any sort of thing, you know, like that before this was like, just, you know, it's like I was, it's like the, I was always the good girl and not, not getting it.

00:27:25 Speaker_00
We didn't end up in the principal's office, right? No.

00:27:28 Speaker_01
Yeah. I mean, and obviously I, you know, my substance use issues and residency were, that was not me being a good girl, so to speak, but I never really never had any consequences from that. And so I knew that I was looking at like a 90 day suspension.

00:27:40 Speaker_01
That's like their minimum amount. And I didn't know what was going to happen at work. I don't know why I. thought anything different would happen because that was a one year fellowship. And we're in March now of 2021.

00:27:50 Speaker_01
So anyways, uh, I would pretend to go to work. It was very, very, like my brain was very sick, clearly, because I would literally go and tell my husband I was going to work and pretend to go to work. And I don't even know what I did half the time.

00:28:02 Speaker_01
My psychiatrist was the only one who knew. And it really wasn't until like March 19th, I got an email from the GME office at the hospital had said my fellowship's been terminated. And for some reason that was sort of like the last straw for me.

00:28:15 Speaker_01
And yeah, like I said, I had been talking to my, I don't know, maybe we can pause there for a second because I can.

00:28:20 Speaker_00
What I'm feeling as I'm hearing this story is that things are just speeding up and speeding up, but like, where is it going, right? And I can only imagine how you are feeling inside.

00:28:31 Speaker_00
You tell me if the word shame resonates, but I just think that, I mean, right? And shame, I think is so dangerous. I've talked about this time and again, because we just hide stuff because of shame.

00:28:42 Speaker_00
And we also, our brain then starts to tell us these crazy lies that like, we're horrible and nothing, is ever gonna work out.

00:28:49 Speaker_00
You mentioned you felt backed into a corner and I think that that can be so dangerous for us when we think that there's no way out.

00:28:56 Speaker_00
And again, we physicians are really good at this distorted thinking of like, it's either this way or that way, this polarized thinking.

00:29:02 Speaker_00
And especially when you have all the shame, like how can your brain, you're a brilliant woman and your brain is not offering you any other solutions. That's what I think is so scary. And I just wanna warn people that like, there are always,

00:29:16 Speaker_00
other solutions. But when your brain is so sick, like you mentioned, there isn't another way. So I just wanted to pause and just see what your thoughts are on that, because I just think that that bears repeating.

00:29:28 Speaker_01
Yeah, definitely. It's obviously easy for me to see that now.

00:29:31 Speaker_00
But at the time, it was so real.

00:29:33 Speaker_01
It was so real. And it's still not that long ago that I don't still even now feel like this pit in my stomach.

00:29:40 Speaker_00
Yeah, no, I feel it. And I wasn't there. And I feel how scary that must have been.

00:29:46 Speaker_01
Yeah. And it's, you know, I think part of it was too, it's like, I knew I did this to myself. I obviously played a big part in why all of that happened. You know, I did the best I could at that time, just with what I was capable of and what I knew.

00:29:59 Speaker_01
And, you know, that, that, that aspect, I think I've shared before is I really liked that, that Maya Angelou quote about, you know, you do the best you can. So, you know, better and then when, you know, better do better.

00:30:07 Speaker_01
And I've tried to use that a little bit with my dad because, um, as we talked earlier, you know, he just lost his brother to suicide thinking about the things that you could have done.

00:30:16 Speaker_01
But clearly at that time, if I like just basically put myself in my shoes, then what I was saying to myself was like, you did this to yourself. First of all, no one should feel bad for you.

00:30:26 Speaker_01
And obviously there was the whole, I had left this residency and, you know, and I knew people like my program director and other mentors and a lot of my really close colleagues that I still keep in touch with today for my residency were so proud of me for not only obviously being successful in residency, but because of the stuff I had to overcome there, you know, and I sort of felt like I basically let all of them down too.

00:30:47 Speaker_01
That part was really hard to deal with. A lot of shame for that. A lot of shame all around. And that's heavy. That's heavy. It's heavy. Yeah.

00:30:55 Speaker_01
Cause I think that was the, the thing I just kept saying, like, I don't know how I'm ever going to be able to face these people again.

00:31:01 Speaker_00
Including like, you haven't even talked to your husband about this yet. Right.

00:31:03 Speaker_01
Right. And this is what's also a little bit backwards is that, you know, and I had to do this with him, you know, when I was going through my whole, like a men's process, you know, with, with recovery.

00:31:13 Speaker_01
And so I felt terrible that it took me almost losing my career. or feeling like I was going to lose my career, just get my shit together. And that I couldn't be that he, you know, our marriage was not my priority.

00:31:27 Speaker_01
You know, that, that, that losing that, like I would have been able to handle that if I was still a surgeon. And that's a really sad, honestly, I don't feel that way anymore, but I think.

00:31:37 Speaker_00
that that's so true for so many physicians, that our ego and our title is so wrapped up in who we are, which again, that could be a whole other conversation. Like, yes, but it wasn't that you didn't love your husband or your relationship.

00:31:50 Speaker_00
It's just your brain was so focused on your success in your career, which again, I think is so, so common. So bringing us back, I know we'll get through this because I know this is hard to keep talking about.

00:32:03 Speaker_00
I don't want to drag it out, but you're feeling really heavy, this heaviness of shame, pretending that you're going to work.

00:32:08 Speaker_00
Thank God you have this number of the psychiatrist who I believe you reached out to and told them what was going on and who is checking in with you. Let's let's go from there.

00:32:18 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. So I guess back it up to I don't remember exactly when I called him after this urine test because I think there was like maybe a 10 day to 14 day period. Before I had found out I had gotten fired.

00:32:30 Speaker_01
But so again, this is the psychiatrist that I was, you know, initially required to work with because I was in a monitoring agreement with the physician health program, Dr. Sanchez. And he, he is a addiction psychiatrist who does therapy too.

00:32:41 Speaker_01
So I kind of used him as both when I moved because it was just a little bit easier. It was one more, one person to work with. And he, you know, he prescribes medication, but he really does do psychotherapy for the most part.

00:32:52 Speaker_01
And again, he's a really wonderful man. He was very.

00:32:56 Speaker_01
Flexible with me financially too because again it's very difficult to get mental health care and i'm sure it's even worse now than it was back in 2018 when i was you know starting to do that but many of the really skilled people the addiction psychiatrist in particular don't always take insurance and he did not but he basically you know he came up with a number that i felt comfortable that i could afford and that it was

00:33:20 Speaker_01
Basically like he was getting grossly underpaid you know for what he was doing for me and he did that so i already had this like kind of okay i can trust this guy sort of you know five because just talking to someone you know you have to be somebody you really at that point i had a lot of trust built up over three years you know.

00:33:36 Speaker_01
He was somebody I felt safe enough to tell what happened and I think I knew he was going to get notified anyways to that was the other thing because I was in a monitoring program was sort of, I mean, if you can look at it, like, it was, it went against me, but actually, in a lot of ways, it was a little protective because he had to be called when something happened.

00:33:53 Speaker_01
So I kind of knew that anyway. And so he and I were talking, he would call me every day and I hadn't talked to Ian, my husband yet.

00:34:00 Speaker_01
And this is where I think I just recently sort of reflected on this a little bit in terms of how skillful I think he was.

00:34:06 Speaker_01
Because I know that, you know, especially hearing this must be hard for you with, you know, Gretchen, Gretchen's story, but I know you try and look at through the lens of like what things maybe could have changed.

00:34:17 Speaker_01
And I, you know, again, this is part of, I don't think that there's anything that probably Anybody who loved her outside of her could have done, you know, and that's what's really hard.

00:34:28 Speaker_01
But for me, I happened to, because I was being monitored, have the psychiatrist I had a relationship with. And again, I talked to him. He would call every day.

00:34:36 Speaker_01
I'm also somebody who, shocker, as a servant doesn't like being told what to do or kind of bossed around. And if someone was to try and, you know, just sort of grossly tell me what to do, I'd probably not want to talk to them again.

00:34:46 Speaker_01
So he knew that because he knew me. And so, you know, I don't know, we would talk about who knows what. And then at the end of every conversation, he would ask if I talked to Ian yet. And I said, no.

00:34:57 Speaker_01
And we talked a little bit about that or like what my feelings were about, you know, he's like, well, maybe he'll surprise you, you know, I mean, you guys have gone through a lot already and just think about it.

00:35:06 Speaker_01
And I was like, I don't think I'm ready to talk to him. He's like, okay, well, maybe you'll talk to him tomorrow. And that's all he would say. He wouldn't tell me, you have to, you know, if he said you have to talk to him, guess what?

00:35:14 Speaker_01
I'm not picking up that phone the next day. I don't, I don't do that. So again, he was able to kind of keep me close, I guess you could say.

00:35:21 Speaker_01
And so when, and that would go on for like 10 days, basically, because I didn't tell Ian until he was forced to tell him. And that was like that day basically where I said that I had gotten that email from the GME office.

00:35:35 Speaker_01
And I was, for some reason, I was like, that's it. I snapped. It's like, this is over. So, you know, I just went and Ian, Ian is a software engineer. So he was working remotely and we were in this like townhouse. He was up on like the third floor.

00:35:48 Speaker_01
So he couldn't hear anything. I just grabbed my keys and left. And I was like, I don't even know what I'm going to do.

00:35:53 Speaker_01
But I obviously had been googling a lot about suicide and those sorts of things for that preceding week, while isolating myself, which is very unhealthy, and had thought about all the different things that, you know, different methods people use.

00:36:07 Speaker_01
And, you know, fortunately, at that time, didn't have access to a firearm or opiates or whatever. I didn't want my husband to find me.

00:36:14 Speaker_01
And so I like thought about a couple of options that I was too terrified to really go through with, but I just really couldn't see a way out of like this whole thing. And that's where like my mind was just, you know, really working against me.

00:36:25 Speaker_01
It wasn't mine anymore. Like my brain was just. It was telling me that I couldn't get past this. My career's over. I'm 36 years old. I don't have kids. And I know that that's not a protective thing, clearly.

00:36:38 Speaker_01
But I had been delaying all these life things, too, for this career I'd worked so hard for. And I'm this close to being done. And now it's all just going up in flames. and I'm never going to be able to do this again.

00:36:50 Speaker_01
These are the things my brain was telling me.

00:36:52 Speaker_00
Yeah, your brain was just perseverating. It's over.

00:36:54 Speaker_01
All these people that vouched for you and were proud of you are like you're disappointing them. And you're kind of ruining your husband. All these things that were just not necessarily true, but it was just telling you the worst version of everything.

00:37:08 Speaker_00
A big shame spiral.

00:37:10 Speaker_01
Yeah, it was a big, big shame spiral. Yeah.

00:37:12 Speaker_00
Which again, can be really dangerous.

00:37:16 Speaker_01
Yeah. And like I said, I mean, I don't know how close I was. I don't really ever want to find out. It was definitely the closest I would ever have been.

00:37:23 Speaker_01
I really never consider myself like a depressed person or I've dealt with anxiety certainly most of my life, but this was, I was really, really dark and I was like, well, I can't, I'm still too scared to do anything.

00:37:36 Speaker_01
So maybe if I buy a bottle of wine and get some liquid courage, then. You know, that obviously lowers your, your inhibitions and all that stuff. And. Maybe I can have courage, like drive my car off of a bridge or something. I don't know.

00:37:49 Speaker_01
Like, that was like what I was thinking. It's like, I called my psychiatrist for some reason, cause I'm like sitting in this park about a quarter mile from my house, by the way. Like my last drink of wine would be in a solo cup in my car.

00:38:02 Speaker_01
Well, you know, like it's like not a glamorous look, obviously, but I told him some of the things I've been thinking about and, you know, he was asking about Ian and how he would feel. And, you know, the other thing is I'm at, I have a very.

00:38:15 Speaker_01
I'm very close with my family. I'm like the oldest of four siblings. My younger siblings are all amazing. We're very close in age and we have, you know, a great relationship.

00:38:24 Speaker_01
My parents have always been like my biggest cheerleaders, which at the time was working against me though, because I always thought they were my biggest cheerleaders. Cause I was really successful and you know, all that stuff.

00:38:33 Speaker_01
So, but I honestly like, it's kind of sad. They never really crossed my mind at all. It was all about the career thing. And, um,

00:38:41 Speaker_01
At any rate, so I just say that because I had all of these other amazing things in my life that it didn't really change my mindset about it.

00:38:49 Speaker_01
I think it really just had to do with the fact that I felt safe enough to tell a psychiatrist what I was thinking. And when he asked about my husband, I had said,

00:38:56 Speaker_01
That, and I, this is true, I had been looking up some stuff about what happens if you have like a ton of loans and does your spouse inherited and all that stuff. And who knows if this is even true? I don't know.

00:39:07 Speaker_01
Cause I was all over the place, but I thought that he wasn't going to have to deal with that. And that would have been like the last thing I would have saddled him with. And at that point, Dr. Sanchez was like, well, I don't really feel comfortable.

00:39:18 Speaker_01
You seem to have thought about this a little bit more than I'm comfortable with. And would you be OK if I called Ian? And he already had Ian's number, because that's also part of the whole safety thing. And so for whatever reason, I was just like, sure.

00:39:30 Speaker_01
So I think it just tells you that I wasn't who knows how far down I was. But my brain was definitely All the way gone, you know, I just like was like a last cry for help kind of thing.

00:39:43 Speaker_01
And then obviously Ian came and got me and you know, that was a whole other thing too, but. Yeah.

00:39:51 Speaker_00
That is such a miracle. I'm so, so, so grateful that you called him and that he was so astute. We love you, Dr. Sanchez. Thank you for everything. And that he, you know, reached out, right?

00:40:04 Speaker_00
Because sometimes when your brain is so sick, like you didn't even know what to do, except you did know to call and there's always help, right? And if you don't have a Dr. Sanchez, there is a 988. I just have to make a plug for that.

00:40:16 Speaker_01
Yeah, I agree. And I'll tell you another thing about.

00:40:18 Speaker_00
Yeah, but so I'm just so grateful for you're here. And like, this is like you're maybe it's not your darkest moment, but it certainly sounds like a very.

00:40:25 Speaker_00
Oh, it was at least at least at this point, hopefully with the lowest place, but then again, people listening like this turns.

00:40:33 Speaker_00
I mean, this is an amazing story because it just goes to show you you can be in this horrible, horrible place and the help is available and things can get better. So.

00:40:44 Speaker_01
I just have to like that 988 thing real quick. Cause, uh, again, I don't know why I still, cause everything else seemed like way too hard to do by the way. Like, that's why I couldn't talk to my husband.

00:40:54 Speaker_01
That's why I couldn't even call anybody at my work. Cause I knew that they were notified anyways, but I was terrified to even like, just, you know, not that this would happen today.

00:41:03 Speaker_01
I don't think just cause I'm really doing the work to stay the way I am. But, um, if it would, I would have been woman enough to. pick up the phone and tell them what happened and say that. And so I couldn't do that at that time.

00:41:15 Speaker_01
So like there was all these things I was just honestly just paralyzed with doing. And I think that sometimes that 988 number, it's important to know you can call for somebody else because there are many people who may be too far down that spiral.

00:41:30 Speaker_01
And I think that that's an important thing for people just to be aware of as well.

00:41:33 Speaker_01
I mentioned it on, I think, a recent podcast too, because again, you don't, you don't need to even figure out are they spiraling or not just call them because they can obviously that's their role.

00:41:42 Speaker_00
Yeah, they help come up with a plan. Yeah, exactly.

00:41:46 Speaker_00
And I will share another number as well, the physician helpline, but that your brain has to be functioning a little bit more, it doesn't have to be crisis, but maybe you have a bad outcome, maybe you have a mistake, maybe you

00:41:57 Speaker_00
Get an email that feels like it's the end of the world. And if your brain is functioning enough, like, oh, I think I need to reach out, that can be helpful.

00:42:03 Speaker_00
But I do think as the brain starts to get sicker and sicker and sicker and thinking that suicide is the only way out to feel better, that that's maybe too complex. So maybe 988, 911, or, you know, phone a friend.

00:42:16 Speaker_00
But I think a lot of times brains tell you that nobody wants to hear from you. So your husband came to you. And then I will let you take, I feel like now we're soaring into the, although I'm sure it wasn't easy. Yeah.

00:42:30 Speaker_01
I mean, obviously I was a mess. I just kept repeating over and over how I'd like ruined our lives and stuff. And I knew I, this is again, why, you know, I mean, I loved him anyways, but I love him even more now. I mean, he.

00:42:42 Speaker_01
Really put aside all that disappointment rightfully so and and just you know lack of trust and I kept saying, you know I'd say one thing like I made you move out here for no reason I ruined my career I ruined our lives after each time I would say something you just like grab my face back.

00:42:55 Speaker_01
I love you I love you. I love you. You know, that's all he said he wouldn't he wasn't saying like oh that those are okay that you did those things all he was saying is like I still love you, basically, and that I don't know.

00:43:07 Speaker_01
I mean, at that point, he was there like nothing was going to happen, but like I did calm down.

00:43:13 Speaker_00
And then I just want to just it's such a poignant story, but I just have to pause having been on the other side losing my sister.

00:43:22 Speaker_00
If someone is in a deep dark place, like even though your brain is telling you these BS lies, like they don't care, you're ruining their life. Like that is absolutely just all a lie. Like people love you. They would do anything.

00:43:32 Speaker_00
They don't care if you don't have a house anymore. They don't care if you don't have a job anymore. I would have given my kidneys, my eyes, anything to my sister had I known.

00:43:39 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:43:40 Speaker_00
And I love her no matter what. Right. So I just but I get it when your brain is sick. It doesn't believe that it believes the lies. But I love that your husband could calm you down by just saying it again and again. I love you. I love you.

00:43:51 Speaker_00
It doesn't change anything. I love you. I quit my job or I didn't quit my job. I lost my job. Yeah. When I heard that on when you were speaking with Amy, I had like goosebumps and I just like started sobbing.

00:44:02 Speaker_01
Yeah, it

00:44:06 Speaker_01
And I don't know, I just think, like, if my, you know, if it was my parents that had gotten that call from them or my sibling, any of my siblings, honestly, most of my, like, I have a pretty tight knit group of friends from my residency, like, I think, but especially my family, any one of them would have literally dropped something.

00:44:22 Speaker_01
It's just, obviously they were far away, but they, the same thing would have happened, but, you know, and again, Ian, I think just because I put him through so much, I mean, my family was,

00:44:31 Speaker_01
Not aware of everything that's going on and he was living with me day to day and having to deal with all that and still dealing with trust issues from the 1st time around a few years ago or.

00:44:40 Speaker_01
A few years prior, so because we really never worked a lot of that stuff out and. Man. Yeah. I mean, that's just a really good example. And of course I see now how, you know, things have affected my family when we had lost a family member recently.

00:44:53 Speaker_01
And I'm just like, thank God, you know, thank God for Dr. Sanchez.

00:44:59 Speaker_00
Thank God for you for reaching out and thank God for Ian to come that could calm you down. And it's like, okay, now you're feeling a little bit better. And then where do we go from here?

00:45:09 Speaker_00
I know it wasn't all of a sudden the next day rainbows and daisies. That's for darn sure. Right.

00:45:13 Speaker_01
I think, you know, in terms of my, my external circumstances didn't change for quite some time, but I, I mean, I went to the next few days were a blur, but I went to treatment on March 24th. That's my sobriety date.

00:45:26 Speaker_01
So I've been sober since then, but almost three and a half years now.

00:45:29 Speaker_00
Way to go every day. I can do it.

00:45:32 Speaker_01
And that was the first time I went to inpatient treatment. So, um, the, you know, the first time around, I had gone into like an acute mental health facility.

00:45:40 Speaker_01
Cause I was psychotic, you know, back in late 2017 and then transitioned to like an outpatient addiction. So this was really the first time I did inpatient addiction treatment.

00:45:48 Speaker_01
And in some ways it was almost like a little bit of a relief when I got there because. I can sort of shut out all of like whatever was going on on the outside. I mean, I'm going to be here and it was almost in some ways like a vacation for my brain.

00:46:00 Speaker_00
I was gonna say, when have you even taken a break like that?

00:46:02 Speaker_01
I wasn't drinking enough where I needed detox or something. I just needed some serious... I needed to rework how... Because they do say, it's not a drinking problem, it's a thinking problem.

00:46:14 Speaker_01
And I need to deal with that now because this is just gonna keep popping up over and over again if we're just gonna be... white knuckling it for the rest of our lives.

00:46:21 Speaker_01
Or in my mind, I think I had also thought, you know, whenever I'm done with this monitoring thing, I can probably still go back to like safely drinking every now and then on the weekends with my sisters or whatever. And that's just not true.

00:46:31 Speaker_01
Not for me. You know, I can't, but a point is like, yeah, so I was in treatment for about 30 days and did all of the things I needed to do, um, you know, and then eventually got my license back in Ohio and, you know, maybe September of 2021. And,

00:46:47 Speaker_01
When I had left treatment, I, you know, got with a sponsor and started doing all the things that you do for, you know, like a 12 step recovery program. But, you know, I just had had, it's hard to describe this because, or put it into words, I guess.

00:46:59 Speaker_01
I mean, sometimes we need some sort of just. I hate you.

00:47:04 Speaker_00
I don't know.

00:47:05 Speaker_01
I hate using the word rock bottom, but something needs to give, and we have to suffer a little bit to really get it. Like I just couldn't get it the first time around, you know, despite. all probably objective evidence to the contrary.

00:47:18 Speaker_01
I didn't think I really had a big problem with it or I thought I could handle it on my own and I just couldn't. And I finally accepted that. Once I accepted that, it allowed me to be willing to do the work that was necessary to stay sober.

00:47:33 Speaker_01
And today sobriety is a lot more just about, honestly, the way I live my life more than Fortunately don't really have like, you know, get worried about, Oh, I'm going to go to a party and people are going to drink and I'm going to crave it.

00:47:43 Speaker_01
I really don't. Anymore. It's more about just like way I handle life and deal with ups and downs.

00:47:49 Speaker_01
And it's given me a lot of tools that I didn't have before where things did start going in the right direction, but I, I'm able to also handle some of the ebbs and flows of life a little bit more like not losing my shit all the time, I guess. Yeah.

00:48:04 Speaker_01
But anyways, things got better, you know, and then, um, I, I had also been doing a lot of work on myself too, as far as, uh, figuring out my role and all that, you know, and.

00:48:16 Speaker_01
At some point was able to shift from like this sort of victim mentality to, okay, like I need to take accountability for it. And that's, you know, doesn't mean like everything that happened was like, okay. And that we should just like.

00:48:28 Speaker_01
you know, especially some of the disciplinary stuff. And good news is that that did eventually change, not necessarily because of me, but like Ohio changed their laws recently where you don't get disciplined anymore.

00:48:37 Speaker_01
If like you're, you know, you have a relapse, you're not hurting anybody and you want to go to treatment. And so I think that's really great. And not every state's like that though. So there's still a lot of work to be done.

00:48:47 Speaker_01
But so that was a big thing I think was just me embracing like what the role was I played in all of that. And that allowed me to realize that some of these people I thought were like villains in my story perhaps weren't.

00:49:00 Speaker_01
And honestly, probably the biggest villain is like up here in my own brain.

00:49:04 Speaker_00
Yeah, right.

00:49:06 Speaker_01
know, once I got the license back, I had, you know, my husband and I had decided it was like a group decision this time, like what our next move was. We both wanted to move back to New England.

00:49:15 Speaker_01
I ended up in New Hampshire just because it was sort of place close, not too close, but we were going to be near our family and also be able to kind of set down our own roots and parallel working on my recovery. I was also understanding.

00:49:27 Speaker_01
It also allowed me to understand a little bit more. About myself and what my values are, and I realized that I had been trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole for a long time on the career trajectory I was on.

00:49:38 Speaker_01
I always felt like there was something else I was supposed to be doing with my life, as if being a surgeon is not enough, right? But it was more like there was a little kind of a nudge almost.

00:49:48 Speaker_01
You know there's something something else i need to contribute to society and i was always research right and researcher papers and being foremost expert on some random pancreas condition running a ton of textbook chapters or whatever and obviously eventually figured out what that other thing was.

00:50:08 Speaker_01
I'm very just like content with where I'm at. Like I'm obviously able to still be a surgeon, but I have this other calling now, which is this stuff and just trying to raise awareness.

00:50:16 Speaker_01
And I don't know exactly where it's going to take me, but I do know that this is important that I needed to, you know, share my story.

00:50:22 Speaker_01
And, you know, once I figure out the other stuff, well, in terms of like, whether I'm a coach or doing more advocacy, I don't, I don't know yet, but I really wanted to start with just sharing and kind of giving some hope to people.

00:50:34 Speaker_01
And I realized that that is a huge part of my purpose in life now too.

00:50:38 Speaker_00
That is huge. And I love that you're an amazing surgeon. So you got back to doing your work. You started working the program, which was, I'm hearing from you, a really important piece of the puzzle to learn how to deal with the stressors of life.

00:50:51 Speaker_00
It's like, goodness gracious, wouldn't it be awesome if we, as kids, learned, like, again, maybe you don't have to go through addiction. It's still going to happen. Our brains become addicted.

00:50:59 Speaker_00
But wouldn't it be great if we could learn these tools before we start to turn to substances to cope with the difficulties of life? Because life is freaking hard.

00:51:08 Speaker_01
Yeah, no, exactly. And sometimes we'll say things like, oh, well, how lucky are we that we have addiction problems? Because we have to do this stuff. We need to stay sober. But it actually helps me in life. And I'm in synergy with coaching.

00:51:19 Speaker_01
at the end of the day, I do a little, you know, was I acting out of sorts? Or like, it's like you take a little inventory, but anybody could do that.

00:51:26 Speaker_00
You don't need to have- A hundred percent, but like, how do you find it? I found it through burnout, right? Then I started doing coaching and there's somebody that I know who was parallelly going through an addiction program.

00:51:36 Speaker_00
And I was like, we would talk and I'm like, oh my God, these things are so similar. Like what? The way someone else thinks about me isn't about me. Like it was so interesting. It was so fascinating.

00:51:46 Speaker_00
So I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so cool that you're learning through this, through your program. And I'm learning this through coaching. And it's so similar. And again, I just really believe in spreading the word as well.

00:51:55 Speaker_00
And I'm just so grateful that you are courageous enough to do this, right? Because again, I think, you know, Brene Brown talks about how shame grows in the dark.

00:52:03 Speaker_00
And when we talk about it and normalize this, then it gives other people permission to talk about it too. Right? Exactly. You're not the only surgeon.

00:52:10 Speaker_00
There are a lot of physicians who turn to substances for various reasons, whether it's to stay up and get their research done and or to calm F down after a really stressful day.

00:52:22 Speaker_01
which we know by the way, actually does make anxiety worse, right? Like it's like, it'll calm us down, like in the immediate, like it's a really good immediate elixir. And then it actually exacerbates in terms of alcohol.

00:52:32 Speaker_00
I mean, obviously- I'm going to say that again. Alcohol is a very, very temporary fix to calm you down. It amplifies your anxiety over time.

00:52:41 Speaker_01
That is something- And worsens your sleep quality.

00:52:43 Speaker_00
Yeah, which when you don't get sleep, it amplifies your anxiety, right? Which I think, you know, at any rate, that's a big problem for a lot of people. Well, we need to talk about it. And we know that substance abuse totally happens in physicians.

00:52:55 Speaker_00
And I don't know if it's at a higher rate or not, but certainly the last few years.

00:52:58 Speaker_01
Female physicians for sure. It's like 25. And I forget if it was surgeons or physicians, but I recently saw some study. It was like 25% of female. I feel like it was surgeons.

00:53:08 Speaker_01
Have were actually when they answered like, survey questions actually qualified for like, moderate to severe alcohol use disorder. So that's pretty high number.

00:53:18 Speaker_01
I mean, that's definitely higher than the general population, but I guess getting back real quick is what's also kind of weird. And this is where I sort of.

00:53:24 Speaker_01
I don't know if the universe has funny ways of working or, you know, God works in mysterious ways, whatever you want to think about it.

00:53:29 Speaker_01
But I had been working in this job in New Hampshire at a community hospital and sort of, I think honestly, and so I was very transparent with them about obviously what had happened and they really did welcome me with open arms, but I wasn't doing any of this stuff, like talking about this in any manner and probably, I don't know.

00:53:46 Speaker_01
I mean, it's hard to say if anything would have happened, but like, I feel like I probably would have just been content with like being a surgeon again.

00:53:54 Speaker_01
And once this whole monitoring period was over, kind of just putting it behind me and like, in my rear view mirror and not really doing anything with it. I didn't have like a big reason to talk about it.

00:54:04 Speaker_01
I don't know why, but then when I was at this job, this was my first job out of training. doing general surgery and I was there for about nine, 10 months and had gotten laid off. Nothing to do with any of my clinical skills.

00:54:17 Speaker_01
It was a financial decision. This was in February of 2023. And I was just coming up on two years at that point, two years of sobriety.

00:54:25 Speaker_01
And I thought I was going to get a job pretty quickly because I don't know, first of all, that's what my former partner said. It's like, oh, you'll, you know, that whole stuff from Ohio is like that much further in the distance.

00:54:36 Speaker_01
you've been working now blah blah blah and it wasn't very easy finding a job you know for whatever reason it's just like the right fit wasn't coming along some of it did have to do with my background i know it several places and then the longer you go you know and so then i started doing coaching trying to do things like okay i can maybe clearly need to do something different because this isn't working

00:54:56 Speaker_01
I passed my boards in October, which was, I think a big blow, obviously a freedom plugged in with, I forget who first, honestly, it was either Amanda or Amy Hill, but I have been listening to Amy's podcast for like maybe a year or two at that point.

00:55:10 Speaker_01
And obviously just really appreciate her insights and stuff. And it's not many surgeons who were talking about kind of this, this sort of stuff outside of, outside of clinical. So I knew her, who she was and then.

00:55:21 Speaker_01
I think she announced that whole free webinar that they were doing about people who are getting laid off and called pink slip to predict.

00:55:27 Speaker_01
So, I went to it and then had asked a question during the webinar, but also knew I wanted to do, because I wanted to do coaching.

00:55:33 Speaker_01
Actually, I was like, okay, I guess I need to do something different because even board certified doesn't seem to be, like, making me any.

00:55:40 Speaker_01
Any more qualified for these jobs and I just figured out I'd help with some of my interviewing skills or my leverage or whatever, you know, but I wanted to make sure I was getting, you know, my money's worth because I wasn't making a lot of money at that point.

00:55:52 Speaker_01
And so I just asked him a question about like, in terms of the scope of it. And I think, you know, she answered it during the webinar, but then she emailed me the next day and it said, whatever I wanted to do with the course is fine.

00:56:01 Speaker_01
Like, I mean, you know, if I took it or not took it, it's like, it wouldn't impact this next thing, but she has mentioned, she was thinking about hiring a third partner.

00:56:09 Speaker_01
And it's like, you know, if I would be interested, Oh, look, it could just be a place for you to land for a little while and that sort of thing.

00:56:15 Speaker_01
But so then we got to talking a little bit in several phone conversations later, and I think I visited here back in December. of 2023 and then had a job offer like a couple of days before Christmas. So, and then I took it.

00:56:29 Speaker_00
That's so, I love that story.

00:56:30 Speaker_01
That was kind of cool, obviously, but I guess I sort of diverged from my point, which was, she was also one of the people kind of gave me like the last nudge I needed to start talking about this stuff a little bit, because I did do, you know, I did ultimately, you know, as we were kind of compartmentalizing the whole job thing, but in our coaching groups talking about things, I think that we're waiting to do.

00:56:52 Speaker_01
You know until retirement or some period like we're just pushing it off, you know kicking it down King it down occur I had mentioned like I was starting to feel like there was some reason maybe I was having struggles with my job and stuff like I'm I was getting really irritated about how much stigma there seemed to be about my past predicament and But I didn't really know where to start like in terms of advocacy or you know Starting my own coach, you know doing getting coaching certified or something like that but I couldn't really figure out what really spoke to me just like why don't you just

00:57:22 Speaker_01
I know a podcast you could go on and, you know, just share there and see what happens. And then obviously that, I think that's where it started her or, um, Francis May Harden also who I'd met, I think in my interview.

00:57:34 Speaker_01
Between the two of them, I had done them both fairly closely together where I got like an interview, you know, about this whole thing. And, um, then I realized that actually was helping people because I've had a lot of people reach out to me and, um,

00:57:45 Speaker_01
Um, some people who are scarily and a very similar predicament or remind me, you know, of myself back then. Um, and it's just really cool how that's probably the most beautiful part of all of this, you know, is that I'm able to now use all of that.

00:57:58 Speaker_01
Frustration and pain and suffering for something good. And maybe to make somebody else feel a little bit less alone, at least have some, like, I like that Brené Brown quote too. It's like your.

00:58:10 Speaker_01
Your story could be somebody else's survival guide, you know, for getting through it. And I was looking for that a few years ago and I really couldn't find it.

00:58:17 Speaker_01
Cause I would look for, you know, there was always some reason I couldn't relate to somebody. And I, what I would say to people was like, I understand in terms of why we like to not talk about it.

00:58:27 Speaker_01
And ultimately it's everybody's own journey, you know, but like you'd be surprised at like what part of your story to someone might find useful and. And, you know, you can save lives.

00:58:38 Speaker_01
And it's just kind of a really, really cool, rewarding thing to be able to do that without any sort of, I don't know, there's no like ego motivation there.

00:58:45 Speaker_01
You know, it's like this wouldn't be the type of thing I thought would be my, obviously as a kid, I wasn't hoping for this, but.

00:58:52 Speaker_00
No, I know. But like, I think you're on earth and you're like a lifesaver. As a surgeon, you save lives and sharing your story equally saves lives. I know that to be true. I know that this conversation will save lives. We need to stop the stigma.

00:59:09 Speaker_00
We too are humans. Our brains get sick. And I love that you can offer hope. You are in a very dark place. And thank God you were able to see a ray of light and get the help that you needed, right? Reach out and call somebody.

00:59:22 Speaker_00
And so I just, when people think like, oh my God, I'm drinking or whatever it is that someone listening might think like, oh, that's not me. Like, no, it can be pretty bad. And you can still turn the corner. I mean, look at you now.

00:59:32 Speaker_00
It was not an easy few years, but look at you three years later, you're doing amazing. You're working with other amazing women physicians. you're sharing your story. I think that makes it so such a difference. And I'm so, so grateful.

00:59:46 Speaker_00
And similarly, I mean, I think that we were meant to meet in a certain reason. I'm on the other side, I lost my dear sister is that everybody who listens knows to suicide three years ago, the same month.

00:59:57 Speaker_00
I didn't realize that so we were chatting a bit before our conversation like that just gives me goosebumps and that you are the same age and she was also just like this high achieving award winning woman at any rate.

01:00:09 Speaker_00
Like me sharing her story what she by the way approved she was present my ear all the time keep talking like that. People have come up to me and say, hearing that story made me realize I need to get help.

01:00:21 Speaker_00
I was so close, or I think about driving off a bridge when I'm driving home from work. Ladies, gentlemen who are listening, if that's you, oh my gosh, you're not broken, it's just your brain's a little sick. See somebody, tell somebody.

01:00:34 Speaker_01
Yeah, you'd be amazed what happens once you're, you know, healed up. Like it's, uh, it's really scary looking back.

01:00:40 Speaker_00
So yeah, it can get so much better. And I love that you're this beautiful example and it's still not easy. Like you're like, yep, life is hard and now I have tools to deal with it. So I feel like we could just keep on talking. I love what you're doing.

01:00:52 Speaker_00
Thank you for taking care of all your patients. Thank you for.

01:00:57 Speaker_00
sharing your story, if someone's listening and they are either using substances and, or in a deep dark place, maybe they just got an email saying that they've been let go, or maybe even before then, again, as a primary care doc, I'm like, well, let's talk about stuff to do ahead of time.

01:01:12 Speaker_00
Like what are just some parting words of wisdom to physicians, how to take care of themselves along the journey?

01:01:19 Speaker_01
Yeah, I think the one thing that,

01:01:25 Speaker_01
I have learned since all of this, and I think honestly, Carrie Cunningham, who's a surgeon who talked about this a little bit in her, she had this really epic central address a few, a couple of years ago, I think at academic surgery.

01:01:37 Speaker_00
I watched that. She's amazing. That's another woman I want to reach out to.

01:01:41 Speaker_01
Yeah. Um, she actually randomly, she and I kind of, uh, so she, she and I co-authored a paper together when we, I was a resident, but we didn't really know each other. She was sort of, she was at one of the other, you know, she's at MGH.

01:01:51 Speaker_01
I was at the BI and my mentor who was doing the paper had like tuned her in. So it was kind of funny, like seeing her and be like, Oh yeah, that, you know, it's just a weird little, you know, university weird thing.

01:02:02 Speaker_01
But anyway, she had said something like, you know, anything that can be taken away from you by. Definition is not you. So I think the whole identity piece.

01:02:11 Speaker_01
We are all incredibly smart incredibly driven and Could do anything, you know if we really wanted to and so you know what if if for some reason Something's going on and it is a career under then that means that you weren't supposed to go through that door And I really believe that stuff now.

01:02:27 Speaker_01
I mean it sounds all like Helena ish or whatever but there's a reason that that didn't work out if it doesn't and you're gonna have a

01:02:34 Speaker_01
There's something better out there for you in life, but you're like, you know, nothing is more important than your life.

01:02:40 Speaker_01
And I, I'm sure as a, you know, family member, you can test to that, like no matter what had happened, Gretchen, if she wasn't a radiologist, you know, you guys would have loved her all the same.

01:02:50 Speaker_01
And i'm sure she could have found something to but is my point is that's a big thing because we are so wrapped up especially i think it's urgent is our identity is surgeons and that if not if i'm not this and what am i. Is that where i was you know but most of the time our brains are telling us things that are.

01:03:06 Speaker_01
Not true there's like that mark twain quote that's like there's. All these terrible things in my life and most of them have never happened.

01:03:14 Speaker_00
Something like that's like talking about brains like this yeah our brains love to catastrophize.

01:03:19 Speaker_01
yeah and so there is another there's usually always another way out there's another way around it the more we talk about this less stigma there is and so these things are recoverable you know i mean there's a reason if you know say you're facing license suspension okay well they didn't revoke it you're going to get it back and you're not going to be first doctor to ever have their license suspended and i think it's really important to just take care of yourself first though i mean that's ultimately like this is just going to keep happening again

01:03:46 Speaker_01
But it's hard. I mean, I think trying to have somebody that you trust enough to call doesn't even have to be your family member. Like, if you're seeing a psychiatrist, great.

01:03:56 Speaker_01
If you're at a point where you're not in crisis, I would highly recommend that, you know, I know you talk about this a lot, maintenance. We need to have these systems in place before there's a crisis. So when there is one, you know,

01:04:07 Speaker_01
You maybe have, you feel comfortable enough like I did to call that person. I guess those would be my big parting things, but there's really nothing that's insurmountable.

01:04:15 Speaker_01
I mean, you know, and I've, I've had some other frustrations obviously in my career since going into recovery and being able to embrace that.

01:04:23 Speaker_01
Recovery program and then also doing coaching I think has allowed me to handle those stressors with much more serenity I guess and Just you know having some personal faith to like I do know when things are tough that there's a reason I'm having you know thinking of it as like a lesson that I have to learn and Whenever I'm ready like I don't know I mean I am I am Catholic and I do you know I have like faith in God and all that stuff so I do know that like

01:04:47 Speaker_01
Usually there's some reason i'm having to deal with something and either it's because there's some mess i need to clean up on my end or you know there's some opportunities trying to get me ready for it so i try and think of it like that i love that i'm just gonna reiterate nothing is insurmountable.

01:05:04 Speaker_01
We'll call, you know, call the number if there.

01:05:06 Speaker_00
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That is so, so helpful. And thank you for the work that you're doing. Before we stop this beautiful conversation, I just want to learn just like a little bit about Courtney.

01:05:18 Speaker_00
So we're talking about you and your surgeon and like this ego, but like, let's take the title away. Like what kind of things bring joy and wonder to Courtney?

01:05:27 Speaker_01
Well, um, Ian and I have a seven year old. He's seven. Ian always adds like another year or two to his age because he's a rescue, but his name's Buddy. He's a dog. He's like a hound. He brings a lot of joy.

01:05:38 Speaker_01
I'm a huge... I've been a dog mom since like 2013 with our first dog. We adopted him when I was second year resident. And so, I mean, you know, we do want to start a family and stuff, but right now we're dog parents for the moment.

01:05:50 Speaker_00
You had mentioned earlier basketball. I don't know if that's something you're still doing.

01:05:54 Speaker_01
Yeah, so I do. I'm a big sports fan. I mean, I did grow up playing three sports and basically at any one period of time, like I was always playing all three of them, you know, between AAU, club and, you know, all that.

01:06:06 Speaker_01
So I was soccer, basketball, softball. and I don't know basketball I think it's probably been although I'm five two so I was probably never meant to be like you know in the WNBA.

01:06:15 Speaker_00
Those feisty guards though we need them we need them.

01:06:18 Speaker_01
I think I got like the most out of like my basically my athletic abilities like I and I learned a lot of really important lessons that served me very well as a surgeon but I do love I still love playing like I'm I'm actually

01:06:30 Speaker_01
I'm in a little funny competition with our nurse practitioner here. She's a big basketball fan and also player. So love it. Crash talking about we're not going to play one on one because I think everybody's a little nervous.

01:06:40 Speaker_01
Like one of us is going to get hurt. Yeah. And that would be my luck. I would basically jam my finger and then write what I'm about to start doing cases.

01:06:48 Speaker_00
That would probably be less than ideal. And my brain was thinking like, oh, you'd hate to tear your ACL, but a jam finger would probably worry about my hands. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Speaking of basketball, are you going to watch the women go for gold today?

01:06:59 Speaker_00
Oh yeah. Yeah.

01:06:59 Speaker_01
No. And actually, yeah, that's the other thing is I've gotten really a lot more into women's basketball. Ironically as it sounds, I used to think it was kind of a little bit boring too, but. I know Caitlin Clarke obviously really ignited.

01:07:10 Speaker_00
She really brought a lot of fire recently.

01:07:12 Speaker_01
So I mean, and she's a great player. She's also like a class act. I just really like how she handles herself with the media. And she obviously is under a lot of pressure right now.

01:07:19 Speaker_01
So honestly, I think she's a great role model for, you know, a lot of young kids out there. But yeah, so planning to actually go to a fever game, hopefully in a couple of

01:07:28 Speaker_01
Maybe in a month or so there, because we're only about 3 hours or so from Atlanta and I think they're playing in Atlanta end of this month. I like to golf. That's something, you know, I like to do together. So that's a fun activity hiking kayaking.

01:07:41 Speaker_01
I used to be on the rowing team in college. So this is like a 1 way. I can sort of still stay on the water a little bit. And those are like the big things. I mean, you know.

01:07:51 Speaker_00
I love that.

01:07:53 Speaker_01
Daughter, auntie, you know.

01:07:55 Speaker_00
I love it. Well, I just love to remind people that there are many parts to us. Like certainly our career takes up a lot of our time and energy, but like we are so much more than that. If you take that away, what brings you joy?

01:08:06 Speaker_00
Where do you find the fun and the love and connection? Which I really, really love to amplify as well. Any final things that we didn't talk about that you just wanna like yell out to the people.

01:08:18 Speaker_01
No i think the only other thing is i had people reach out and say oh my gosh i can't believe you responded like i.

01:08:24 Speaker_01
literally when when people reach out to me, especially, I mean, it doesn't matter what the reason is, but particularly if they're asking for my help, I consider that like the highest compliment. And so please don't worry that you're bothering.

01:08:37 Speaker_00
How should people reach out to you?

01:08:40 Speaker_01
Yeah. And just saying, for example, like I had someone reach out to me maybe a month or so ago who had heard one of the podcasts I'd done and just really related to it.

01:08:48 Speaker_01
And honestly, that person's in a very similar circumstance that I was a few years ago. And they had said, you know, that's where I get goosebumps too.

01:08:55 Speaker_01
It's like, I'll hear these, what they say and like how somehow something I said, like a little bit of my imposter syndrome comes in around, like something I said actually like made you feel, but it's true. I mean, that's why I'm doing this. Right.

01:09:06 Speaker_01
But I guess, so that's my point is just like, they reached out and just said that, and then they had asked my advice about something particular, but so I'm on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Any of those modalities are fine.

01:09:17 Speaker_01
If they want, if they want to message me, I think on, you can find me Courtney Barrows McEwen on LinkedIn and Facebook and then Court B McEwen, I think MD at, I can send you the links, you know, but basically.

01:09:28 Speaker_00
Perfect. I can, I can share them in my show notes and I found you on Facebook. I'm pretty sure I messaged you right after I heard you on Amy's podcast.

01:09:37 Speaker_01
Facebook Messenger is probably the easiest. Cause that's like, yeah.

01:09:40 Speaker_00
Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you for being so open and being so.

01:09:44 Speaker_00
Amazing just being you is what i'm gonna thank you for and to you because you're doing a lot of amazing work as well and i don't know i just think it's so beautiful obviously being able to turn a lot of that just yeah well like again like this is my unpreferred reality but i need to share the message to help other people we can't change what happened in our lives but hopefully this gives people hope that no matter what

01:10:07 Speaker_00
help is available. Nothing is insurmountable. And I really appreciate you taking time and sharing your story with my listeners. I have a feeling we may be doing some further work together.

01:10:16 Speaker_01
I think so. Yeah, definitely. It's another note.

01:10:19 Speaker_00
Thank you so much, Courtney.

01:10:21 Speaker_01
My pleasure. Thank you, Michelle.

01:10:23 Speaker_00
Are you ready to take control of your life and put these tools into action? I'm here to help. I offer free consultations for physician moms to see if my one-on-one coaching package is right for you.

01:10:36 Speaker_00
You can sign up for a free consult at www.MamaDocLifeCoach.com.