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Episode: Questions You Aren't Allowed to Ask

Author: Esther Perel Global Media
Duration: 00:52:49

Episode Shownotes

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin?, but might still be new to many of you. What began as an eight-year affair between two women has stretched into a 19-year partnership. But despite their private commitment to one another, they’ve never quite managed to move beyond the

shame of their origin story. Esther takes a novel approach to revealing a long-held secret. If you have an individual question you would like to talk through with Esther, please send a voice memo to [email protected]. If you would like to apply for a couples session with Esther, please click here: https://bit.ly/40fGHIU. Esther’s two new courses on desire are now available inside The Desire Bundle. Go to https://www.estherperel.com/course-bundles/the-desire-bundle to learn more about Bringing Desire Back and Playing with Desire. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary

In this episode of "Where Should We Begin?" with Esther Perel, a couple confronts the complexities of their 19-year relationship that originated from an eight-year affair. Themes of shame and secrecy permeate their discussions, as they navigate their identities amidst societal expectations. With an emphasis on acknowledging their origin story, Perel encourages them to embrace both the beauty and pain of their journey. As they explore their parental roles and the impact of past conflicts, the couple aims to foster deeper intimacy and accountability, ultimately working towards a healthier dynamic in their family and relationship.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Questions You Aren't Allowed to Ask) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_06
19 years ago, it's not like today. It's cool now to be gay or curious or whatever it is you are, but back then it was really shameful.

00:00:15 Speaker_08
What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. and each episode is a one-time counseling session.

00:00:27 Speaker_08
For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

00:00:44 Speaker_04
Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Autograph Collection Hotels. Autograph Collection Hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else.

00:00:57 Speaker_04
Hand-selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences, from medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting.

00:01:10 Speaker_04
Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable at autographcollection.com.

00:01:22 Speaker_09
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00:01:39 Speaker_09
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00:01:53 Speaker_09
Learn more at ACLU.org.

00:02:00 Speaker_07
We've been now 19 years together, and I still struggle with saying I'm gay. Holding hands in public, like, it still bothers me. It's always kind of felt like she's been

00:02:14 Speaker_06
ashamed of me or our relationship.

00:02:18 Speaker_04
This is a couple that is organized around a secret.

00:02:25 Speaker_07
My thought was not to get divorced and then the next day have her move into the house.

00:02:32 Speaker_06
She said, I don't want him going out the front door and you coming in the back.

00:02:37 Speaker_04
A secret means I can't talk about this thing. But then I can't talk about the next thing because it could lead back to this thing. And so it starts to grow inside a family and it becomes a code of conduct.

00:02:53 Speaker_07
I walk on eggshells around her because she has a lot of frustration with me. We have no sexual relationship at all and haven't for a long time. And there's just a lot of resentment and guilt.

00:03:07 Speaker_04
Shame and secrecy are among the more corrosive elements of a relationship and of a family. And it is time for some of the secrecy and some of the silencing to be removed.

00:03:27 Speaker_08
This is Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel.

00:03:36 Speaker_07
I was married and I have two kids and we met 10 plus years into my marriage. And then we were friends for probably almost a year and you were friends with my ex-husband.

00:03:51 Speaker_07
Uh, and our friendship kind of turned into a relationship and stayed that way for a long time. For seven, eight years, I kind of, was a soccer mom, you know, living in the suburbs with kids and my ex- Can I plead cultural ignorance for one moment?

00:04:13 Speaker_04
Sure. What's a soccer mom?

00:04:16 Speaker_07
Oh, so my kids both played soccer. So like every Saturday I'd be at the soccer fields and I'd be involved just in all their activities and be with all the other moms.

00:04:27 Speaker_04
A soccer mom is a woman who is forgotten that she's a woman and she's only a mother.

00:04:36 Speaker_07
I think just that kids are a huge part, right? So like all their activities in school.

00:04:41 Speaker_04
So she's a mom.

00:04:42 Speaker_07
Yeah. Okay. And then our relationship was kind of like the download kind of thing. Like it was like two lives. I was living for a really long time balancing wanting to make everybody happy.

00:04:53 Speaker_07
So like keeping my ex-husband and kids happy and then keeping her happy and feeling very guilty because of what I was doing. Still you are. Yeah, no, there's a lot of guilt. He never knew, but he probably knew.

00:05:13 Speaker_07
And eventually he said that he was ready to separate and get a divorce. And as soon as he gave me that out, I took it. You know, my thought was not to get divorced and then the next day have her, like, move into the house.

00:05:35 Speaker_06
Like, I wanted to be able to... She said, I don't want him going out the front door and you coming in the back.

00:05:41 Speaker_04
Yeah. But you had already come through the front door. And the back. For eight years. Yeah. And every other window. You were inhabiting this house in every place. Yes. Why suddenly the pretense?

00:05:52 Speaker_07
I think I was just trying to justify in my head that I wasn't getting divorced for her. I was getting divorced because I wasn't in love with him anymore.

00:06:04 Speaker_04
Explain the difference for me. What would it represent to say I don't love my husband anymore? And what would it represent to say I love this woman?

00:06:17 Speaker_07
I just had a lot of guilt and a lot of shame, and I think I still do to this day. Would it be different if this was a man? Yeah, probably a little bit. More shame, less shame, different shame? Probably, well, probably about the same.

00:06:38 Speaker_07
I mean, hindsight's kind of 20-20 that I did realize that I was attracted to women. You know, I got married very young.

00:06:46 Speaker_04
When you look back, do you think there was a part of you that sought to seal, to conceal even from yourself a part of you that was very scary?

00:06:59 Speaker_04
And that if you went with all the accoutrements of the sanctioned official life that you were meant to have, then somehow you'd forget about yourself as a woman and your sexuality and your attractions? Probably, yes.

00:07:17 Speaker_07
Like, I didn't ever question, even in college or anything, I just... Some questions are not allowed. It wasn't anything I thought about. I just... I kind of did what I was supposed to do, kind of thing.

00:07:33 Speaker_04
There may have been personal and familial reasons for why she had to hide, but clearly there was also a very strong message in society that set her up for the shame and for the hiding about her sexuality.

00:07:51 Speaker_04
And so our survival strategies are adaptations to a reality. It's just that when we continue doing the same 20 years later, when our reality has completely shifted, then our strategy is no longer adaptive.

00:08:08 Speaker_07
She stuck around and waited for me until I was ready. Eight years, that's a long time waiting. I know. And I just... I still have such a hard time with that. It just was a long time of lying.

00:08:26 Speaker_04
So a part of you still experiences a lot of conflicts about your origins together. Yes. And until the origin story can be retold, you will always feel compromised when you think about the future. Yes, probably yes. I should finish with a question mark.

00:08:50 Speaker_04
It's not a statement. It's a question. But you talk about the origin story as if it was yesterday.

00:08:58 Speaker_07
It still bothers me. I have a hard time even. We've been now 19 years together and I still struggle with saying I'm gay, saying, you know, holding hands in public like I just And it's all me, I know, it's me. It's just, I don't know.

00:09:19 Speaker_07
I just, and then I tell people like I have two great girls and they're happy and successful. And they have no problem saying my mom is gay.

00:09:30 Speaker_07
We never, you know, I've had initial conversations with them way back when you moved in and that just never really came up again. It was like,

00:09:42 Speaker_06
The older one was surprised. She thought I was just best friend. For how long? Eight years until she... Yes, but now?

00:09:53 Speaker_07
Now they know. I mean, now they, but we just, it's just not something we talk about, but I mean, they know and they know that.

00:09:59 Speaker_06
But the younger one, she was okay because she went to school with triplets that had two moms.

00:10:07 Speaker_07
And she, I think they don't consider, I mean, I guess they do like a, like a mom. I don't know.

00:10:14 Speaker_06
Okay. So, so far she said, I, me, my, my house, my kids, There's not a lot of plurality in any of this. You noticed. Oh, well, yeah. So for the whole eight years that he waited, he was at work or he was at school or he was doing whatever.

00:10:39 Speaker_06
And I would be over doing homework. We'd eat dinner. I'd read books. I'd tuck them in. I did all that stuff. The younger one will say to me now, for example, happy other mother's day. And I'm like, yes, I have a title. I'm another mother.

00:11:00 Speaker_06
I love them like they're mine.

00:11:03 Speaker_04
And... And they have never known how to call you because you have actually never been named by you. Right. What's happening is there's a part of you that is conflicted. And so you don't talk about certain things.

00:11:24 Speaker_04
And you think that if you don't talk about them, they don't exist. So you've never talked about who you are with your ex-husband. You've never talked to your daughters.

00:11:35 Speaker_04
And I could imagine if I speak with them, they'll tell me, you know, my mom lives with her girlfriend, they're a lesbian couple, it's a non-issue for them. But since you've never given them the authorization, things remain unnamed.

00:11:48 Speaker_04
And then you create this interesting question of what makes a mother? The person who gives birth or the person who parents them? At what point do you actually become a parent, a mother? And the name is one thing, the meaning is something else.

00:12:04 Speaker_04
And the meaning is what conveys the legitimacy of the relationship. And in a way, your partner has been in a crisis of legitimacy from the moment she met you. You've never really officialized her.

00:12:18 Speaker_07
Yes.

00:12:19 Speaker_04
And I think the one who needs officializing is you. It's like you need a coming out ceremony. At 50. You know, it's your bat mitzvah.

00:12:33 Speaker_07
I feel like, though, I would have to tell the full story to my girls. Very few people know about the eight years, you know, and everybody's in a good place. Like, he's happy.

00:12:45 Speaker_04
You think that everybody's in a good place. You've got a woman sitting right next to you who is not in enough of a good place. Neither are you, for that matter.

00:12:56 Speaker_07
I think about the girls and I feel like if I was to tell them.

00:12:59 Speaker_04
You think they haven't answered the question, what was this woman doing in their house all the years before? I don't know. I mean, no, no. It's because you are in such denial that you attribute the same denial to them. Yeah.

00:13:19 Speaker_04
I'm not saying you should go and tell them anything yet, but you have a story in your head that anything that moves would lead you to the big revelation of your debauchery of eight years to your daughters, and then you get into a panic attack, and then you choke, as you're doing right now, and then the story and the conversation is over.

00:13:42 Speaker_04
And so this is clogged.

00:13:45 Speaker_07
Yes. I've just, I've always been so concerned about what other people think about me, that I want everybody to just be happy. And I feel like if I don't... May I interject?

00:14:01 Speaker_06
You ask her. May I interject? Sure. Are you the expert on her history? No, I just wanted to throw a little. So, for example, when her father's been in the hospital, He doesn't tell her until he's home. Like nothing bad ever happens till it's fixed already.

00:14:22 Speaker_07
I had breast cancer at age 40 and has still never told my father. I even didn't tell my girls till after I kind of knew what was going to happen. I feel like why worry him or anybody because I have her and she was there and took amazing care of me.

00:14:42 Speaker_04
That is the way you talk to yourself day in, day out.

00:14:45 Speaker_07
Yeah.

00:14:46 Speaker_04
And in the course of not talking about that, you talk about nothing and you've never even been able to say, I had a love story. Your thought is, I cheated on my husband for eight years and I feel terrible.

00:14:58 Speaker_04
But there's also, I had this woman who I love dearly and who waited for me and I couldn't believe that she stuck around and it's been the biggest gift in my life. So that gets banned too. Yeah.

00:15:09 Speaker_07
I don't know. It's hard to tell a story that doesn't make you feel good, that I feel shameful for.

00:15:16 Speaker_04
Pieces of it. Pieces of it. So you need to learn to incorporate in your story pieces for which you have deep regret, pieces for which you apologize, pieces for which you ever go to your ex and you tell him what I did back then was terrible.

00:15:31 Speaker_04
And you own your shit. You own the pieces for which you feel remorse, regret, shame, so that you can turn the shame into responsibility. And then free yourself. And then you can also claim the other parts of the story that are beautiful. I know.

00:15:49 Speaker_04
That's... It makes a lot of sense. We're going to practice a couple. Your story is a rich, multi-layered story, and we never get to see its full colors because you take the few things for which you feel bad about, and then it bans everything.

00:16:08 Speaker_04
So your daughters live with secrets. Your ex-husband has never been spoken to. You can't touch in public. You can't say what you are. She never gets a proper name. The affair may be over, but it's a kind of a clandestine living.

00:16:28 Speaker_04
What I decide to do is to have the therapy room become the safe space to have the conversations that she has never had, to hear herself say out loud that which she has never dared to say.

00:16:46 Speaker_04
The mere thought of having to talk about any of this brings up tremendous anxiety and panic for her. It is so painful. But the fact is that her panic creates a rejection of her partner.

00:17:03 Speaker_04
I am working on the couple, and I am working on how her internal feelings affect the relationship, not just how they affect her. That's the difference.

00:17:19 Speaker_08
We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Aster's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

00:17:35 Speaker_04
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00:17:48 Speaker_04
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00:18:14 Speaker_04
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00:18:25 Speaker_04
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00:18:48 Speaker_04
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00:19:57 Speaker_00
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00:20:39 Speaker_04
You with me? I am. You breathing? I am. Yes. So, you're Rick's husband. Okay. Name him.

00:20:49 Speaker_07
Give him a... He's calling John. It's just a simple name. Simple guy.

00:20:52 Speaker_04
I'm going to put John in this chair.

00:20:55 Speaker_07
Okay.

00:20:55 Speaker_04
I want you to see him. Sit there.

00:20:59 Speaker_07
Okay.

00:21:03 Speaker_04
Hmm? So, my dear John, this is so uncomfortable to be talking to you, but you cannot imagine how many conversations I've had in my head with you.

00:21:16 Speaker_07
I'm going to say this.

00:21:18 Speaker_04
In your own words, yes.

00:21:22 Speaker_07
This is very uncomfortable for me, and I had this conversation with you in my head numerous times, because you deserve to know the truth.

00:21:34 Speaker_04
But the truth is about what I did, or the truth is about how sorry I am that I hurt you, or that I neglected you, or that I stopped being your wife?

00:21:47 Speaker_07
Yeah, I mean, the truth is all of that. It's that you deserve better than what I was giving you, and I was very selfish, and I didn't want to hurt him.

00:22:01 Speaker_04
But I know I did.

00:22:02 Speaker_07
But I definitely know I did.

00:22:04 Speaker_04
And I really want to own that one so that I can set you free and me.

00:22:12 Speaker_07
I just need to apologize for letting it go so long and for not being honest. I owe you that. I owe you that for you and for the sake of the girls. And I don't know if I could apologize enough. I don't know if that would make him happy, I think.

00:22:28 Speaker_04
You're not apologizing to make him happy. You are apologizing to do the right thing. He knew long before you, and he stayed friends with you, and he stayed friends with your partner.

00:22:41 Speaker_04
You can tell him about how much you appreciate that he didn't send you to the wolves.

00:22:44 Speaker_07
Yes, absolutely.

00:22:47 Speaker_04
Yeah. Your feeling bad isn't going to make him happy, Juana Iota. You're telling him how much you appreciate what he has done over these decades. That may. Do you know the difference?

00:23:00 Speaker_07
Yeah, I do know the difference. And I agree that he needs to know that I do appreciate.

00:23:10 Speaker_04
You want to say it to him one more time?

00:23:13 Speaker_07
I appreciate your being patient with me. And you've been a friend to me even after all of this.

00:23:24 Speaker_04
And I also appreciate that you never judged my love for my woman.

00:23:30 Speaker_07
He never judged my love. I don't know. I mean, I'm sorry and I hope you're happy because I want, that's really what I want is for you to be happy. Thank you for everything and being yourself and

00:23:53 Speaker_04
And never shaming me for being gay.

00:23:57 Speaker_07
Yeah, and never shaming me for being who I am. Gonna name it. For being gay. You never made me feel bad for that.

00:24:10 Speaker_04
One of the consequences of dissociation over many, many years is to be detected in the affect that people bring to what they feel and to what they say.

00:24:26 Speaker_04
Whether she says, I'm sorry, whether she says, I fell in love, whether she says, I want you to be happy, it all is said with the same affect. And that similarity of unitonal voice is quite telling as the long-term consequence of dissociation.

00:24:49 Speaker_04
And how are you doing right now?

00:24:53 Speaker_07
I mean, I'm glad I can say that to him, because he deserves that. I need to be pushed, because... And I hope it's OK, because that's what I'm doing.

00:25:03 Speaker_04
Yes. From 1 to 10, how much of your comfort zone are we now?

00:25:08 Speaker_07
I was pretty up there, 8 or 9.

00:25:13 Speaker_04
I would love to ask you what it was like to hear, and I'm going to first tell you how admiring I am of your patience, and then I will ask you. But we're going to keep her in her stretch zone for a bit longer.

00:25:26 Speaker_05
OK? Yeah. Are you enjoying this? Maybe that's not the right word.

00:25:33 Speaker_06
I don't know how to answer that, because I'm enjoying it. No, I think it's very important.

00:25:43 Speaker_04
The girls. Yes, the girls. Who you've been thinking are ensnared in your secret and who are probably waiting to receive the permission to finally talk to you.

00:25:57 Speaker_04
But they can't talk to you because you've given them the message that you can't talk about any of this. And so this is about undoing the legacy of a secret, but also about who you are and how they could get to know you better.

00:26:16 Speaker_04
And then hopefully you would get to know them better. Here they are.

00:26:21 Speaker_07
I mean, I would just tell them that I... They're right here. I want to tell you the story. I mean, I want to tell you the story of us and what really happened.

00:26:38 Speaker_07
And, you know, I met her when you guys were little and she was part of your life as a friend and as a surrogate parent and was there to help to raise you really. And then it, it became more than a friendship.

00:26:55 Speaker_04
And what does that mean? It became more than a friendship. What did it become?

00:27:02 Speaker_07
I fell in love and it was more intimate, it was more, there's a connection that I really never had with anybody else and a freedom that I never had before. And I felt more myself than I had, but I still struggled with, you know.

00:27:23 Speaker_04
No, no, before you go to the struggle, if you describe only your inner tumult. It doesn't explain enough why you did all of what you did. One dismantles the whole family because there is something more powerful and more compelling that demands it.

00:27:46 Speaker_04
That is a legacy with which they can do something. A level of truth to yourself, a level of truth to your feelings, a level of truth to your heart,

00:27:59 Speaker_04
Part of why you are resentful all the time, not all the reasons, but part of it, is because you are angry with her as if she represents the secret that you cannot unveil. Yeah, that's probably very true.

00:28:19 Speaker_04
Every time you look at her, you feel guilty and ashamed, and she's become the representation of that dark, abjected part of you. And the story of a love story, the story of, I felt more free, more true, more turned on, has disappeared. Yeah.

00:28:43 Speaker_04
So you can't be sexual either. You can't touch her either. You can't. Everything becomes stifled. Keep going.

00:28:54 Speaker_07
During the time of us being together, I realized about myself that although I still love your father, it was just a completely, it was a different type of love. And that my love with her was, allowing me to be who I was, my true self.

00:29:13 Speaker_07
And my world revolves around you guys, and I never wanted to hurt you at all. And I put you first, and what I wanted or needed second.

00:29:27 Speaker_04
Secrets have legacies. Secrets travel across generations. And they amputate. They actually amputate. It's not that everything must be said. I think we understand the difference. She doesn't have to give all the details.

00:29:43 Speaker_04
But there is something about the irony of thinking that this would actually protect her daughters. It doesn't.

00:29:54 Speaker_07
I should have been honest much earlier. I just didn't know how. Can't kind of help who you fall in love with. And certainly falling in love with her hit me like I had no idea. It was never even in my head. So I'm sorry for hurting you.

00:30:11 Speaker_04
I mean, there's one more thing.

00:30:15 Speaker_07
What's the one more thing?

00:30:19 Speaker_04
I actually want to talk to you, not just because I want to apologize for that time, but also because by creating this silence, I have probably blocked so many avenues for connection, for conversation, for showing you the challenges of a woman being true to herself,

00:30:45 Speaker_07
Yes, that's true. I want to be able to have open conversations about your lives and my life and our good and bad times. And I got to stop protecting you to the point that you can't. I have to give you, I guess, more credit. And I'm sorry for all that.

00:31:06 Speaker_07
And I just, I hope you can find forgiveness and we can move forward to be in a better place than we are now. OK.

00:31:20 Speaker_04
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00:34:16 Speaker_04
What's it like to listen to all this?

00:34:21 Speaker_06
It felt good to hear you say that. And I heard a couple things about me in there too, which was nice. I know the hardest one for you to talk to was John.

00:34:34 Speaker_06
And I know how freeing that is, because to your horror, at the younger one's college graduation, I went over and gave him a hug. But the girl's anxiousness disappeared. And they're like, okay, this is good.

00:35:01 Speaker_06
We're all gonna have a good weekend together as a whole intermingled extended family.

00:35:09 Speaker_04
They need the permission and the freedom. And they need to know that they can call her mom without it upsetting you. Or other mom, or any other word that refers to the relationship that they have, which is a material relationship.

00:35:30 Speaker_07
I love that. I want that. How would they know? I think just part of my struggle has been that I felt like over the years that you've been a mom when it was convenient and not on a steady basis.

00:35:44 Speaker_07
I would go to like school performances and things like that. Every single one.

00:35:52 Speaker_04
There is the past and how it impacts the presence. And then there is the present, the everyday life of these two women and their bickering, their ability and inability to resolve conflict, their power dynamic. And now we need to address some of those.

00:36:13 Speaker_04
What if she's a different parent from you?

00:36:16 Speaker_06
Well, it definitely is. I just... It's also been a very slippery slope because when they were younger, and it's like meet the teacher day, and I'm like, let's go, let's meet the teacher. No, no, no, you can't do that. I pick and choose.

00:36:33 Speaker_04
Right. If I may use the same word, you do at your convenience.

00:36:37 Speaker_07
Yes, you're right.

00:36:39 Speaker_04
But the two of you can do an inventory of each time when the other one didn't show up or the other one did not get included. Or you can do an inventory of each time that the other person did show up and was included.

00:36:58 Speaker_04
And given that the outcome has been really wonderful and the girls are doing really well, I don't see the point. of a negative inventory, or at least of the exclusivity of a negative inventory, when there is just as much of the other.

00:37:15 Speaker_04
That's very true. So, do you have big garbage bins near your houses? Yeah. There's a bunch of stuff that needs to be thrown in there. Yeah.

00:37:29 Speaker_07
I need to just let that stuff go and...

00:37:32 Speaker_04
Would it help you if you took this whole pad and you wrote the various things that you've been holding on to?

00:37:41 Speaker_07
Yeah, I feel like that's something that we could do. Make it an actual, like, throwing away of stuff.

00:37:48 Speaker_04
Rattle down quickly a few.

00:37:52 Speaker_07
Go ahead. Yeah, that you just don't let go of anything and that you will pick and choose what's important. There's not a lot of accountability or responsibility.

00:38:07 Speaker_07
Like, clean out your life and not make excuses and blame other people for... This, by the way, it's all been said a thousand times.

00:38:17 Speaker_04
Yes, it has. It's produced absolutely nothing. It's narrow, it's rigid, and it's fundamentally boring and deadly.

00:38:27 Speaker_07
Yes, that is very true.

00:38:28 Speaker_04
That doesn't mean it's not true.

00:38:30 Speaker_07
No, I understand. But it's useless. I feel like I almost have to, though, keep reminding her of it. Has it been useful? No. Okay. I feel like I'm a parent, you know, and she's a child. Yes. And I don't want to be the parent.

00:38:48 Speaker_04
And you do understand that when there is a parent and a child, there is never any sex.

00:38:54 Speaker_07
Yes.

00:38:55 Speaker_04
Because if your head is screwed up right on your shoulders, there should not be sex between a parent and a child.

00:39:01 Speaker_06
Correct.

00:39:03 Speaker_04
Yeah. So if this remains the emotional organization of your relationship, sex will be out of the relationship. Yes. And I'm not just talking about sex.

00:39:15 Speaker_04
I'm talking about physicality, affection, touch, the entire adult erotic dimension of your relationship.

00:39:23 Speaker_07
And I think that it's that resentment about not being that equal partner that has caused a lot of this.

00:39:32 Speaker_04
We will need to find out a better way to ask. What you ask may be totally legit, but you're going about it in a way that hasn't given you what you want.

00:39:39 Speaker_07
I feel like I've asked. I feel like at times over the years, I've actually begged and was really, truly honest and open with what I needed from her. And then there was never any follow up action to that. Oh, look, kind of like,

00:39:55 Speaker_07
came to the point where we sold the house because I could, I was drowning financially. And I mean, she took care of things around the house and did the laundry and all that.

00:40:03 Speaker_07
But at the end of the day, like bills weren't getting paid or things were, you know, and I couldn't, I begged and I pleaded and I got a lot of pushback. You know, I don't want to sell the house. I don't want to do this.

00:40:16 Speaker_07
And I'm like, so let's figure out a way to keep it. But it never happened. So you make certain decisions.

00:40:25 Speaker_04
I did.

00:40:25 Speaker_07
I do. I have to. That's fine.

00:40:28 Speaker_04
That is actually the way I imagine it working the best.

00:40:31 Speaker_07
Yeah, I did. I said, you know what we're doing. We're selling the house and it ended up working out. She just. There needs to be consequences, and there's no consequences.

00:40:41 Speaker_04
No, that's parental talk.

00:40:42 Speaker_07
I know it is parental talk.

00:40:43 Speaker_04
Thank you. Still, I feel like it's... But let me meet out equal justice for a moment. Anytime there is a person who takes on the parental role, there is somebody on the other side who draws it out. Doesn't like it, but knows exactly what to do.

00:41:00 Speaker_04
And then you can be a petulant teenager. Yes. that asserts her autonomy in rebellion and in defiance and in reaction, too. So if you want to be treated as an adult and as a lover, then you also need to act as such.

00:41:17 Speaker_04
I challenge the woman who has taken on the parental role, and I see the glee on the face of the other, as if I'm scolding and, yes, yes, but it is equally important.

00:41:34 Speaker_04
for her to know that if there is a parent, it's because there is a child or a teenager. And that teenager draws out of the other person the parental response, the same way that the parent draws out of the other a childlike response.

00:41:51 Speaker_04
One of the golden rules of couples is that we actually make the other.

00:42:01 Speaker_06
She doesn't fight with anyone in the world. She's the nicest person you'll ever meet. She loves to fight with me. I could never grasp why something that she said earlier turned on a light in my head. Which one? And it was about the resentment.

00:42:23 Speaker_06
It was a representation of secret and shameful and That made a lot of sense because I never understood why I was a punching bag. Like, why me?

00:42:38 Speaker_07
I get frustrated because I want you and I need you to step up so we're equal and not this parent-child and then I get... But the stepping up is not just in the management of everyday life.

00:42:51 Speaker_04
No. The stepping up would also be her being able to be an adult with you and that means she touches you, she kisses you, she makes love to you, she holds you, she shows up in that capacity too. So it's a collusion on both sides.

00:43:07 Speaker_07
Yes, that's true. I mean, it is. It's it's yeah.

00:43:12 Speaker_04
And so each one says to the other, I can't change until you do yours first. In French, it's a very polite version. It's a preview. You first, but in French, it's after you.

00:43:29 Speaker_04
You are in touch with her resentments of you, but she's in touch with your defiance of her.

00:43:37 Speaker_07
I feel like there's so many excuses that she is super smart and she gets frustrated because she's not, she can do so much.

00:43:45 Speaker_04
Look, she has to go figure herself out. I agree 100%. But you're saying that to her in the way you do. The only power she gets is the power of no. Yeah. The more you say you can, the more the only autonomy she has is to say no.

00:44:01 Speaker_04
Now that is not a good dynamic.

00:44:05 Speaker_07
I try to be supportive, but I guess I'm not being supportive.

00:44:08 Speaker_04
For a while, you drop the topic altogether. The cheerleading side of it and the critical side of it.

00:44:16 Speaker_07
Okay.

00:44:17 Speaker_04
For a while, you have to bite your tongue because instead of going and taking action about the things that she needs to take action on, she spends her time reacting. There is a power dynamic in this relationship.

00:44:32 Speaker_04
There is one woman who is definitely economically much more well-off. She has the resources. She had the marriage. She has the children. She had the status that comes from being in a heterosexual relationship.

00:44:48 Speaker_04
So there is a clear power imbalance between the two women. But you know, the person who manages to say no, everybody who has had teenagers know that the true power doesn't lie with the parent at that moment.

00:45:03 Speaker_06
I think one of the things that drew her to me, and that now just horrifies her, it does both at the same time, a guy got on the subway playing the guitar, and I was interacting with him, and she's like nudging me, and I was thoroughly enjoying him.

00:45:25 Speaker_06
So things like that that I do, she's like, I enjoy the fact that with the girls, although I was in a role that was much stricter than I ever wanted to be, I think that I still gave them permission to be as fun and as... Can I interrupt you?

00:45:52 Speaker_04
Please. I think that what I'm trying to suggest to you, the subway scene is another example of the parental role. Mommy is telling you that you are not behaving properly in the subway, that you are embarrassing.

00:46:09 Speaker_06
Well, maybe I'm embarrassing her, but I'm just being me and enjoying the show.

00:46:13 Speaker_04
But that's the same as what any teenager would answer. It's another scene of the same.

00:46:19 Speaker_06
You're right. And my brain is stuck at 14. I know that.

00:46:22 Speaker_04
OK. So anything from you at this point, it really has to be about your own agency, about your place in the world. You spend so much time reacting to her that you actually don't take action about you.

00:46:39 Speaker_06
Correct. That is sad, but true.

00:46:44 Speaker_04
This has to stop. you. Yeah. In the position of a child. Right.

00:46:51 Speaker_04
And for all I know, part of what drew you in the beginning when you met was to see her in the role of a mother and to like the mother you were seeing and to have another relationship where you could be.

00:47:06 Speaker_06
When we met, I was much more fun, much more exciting. I traveled more. I made more money. I I think that I don't know how to make more money.

00:47:19 Speaker_04
I'm apparently not a very good businesswoman. No, you don't have to be a businesswoman, but you're very skilled and you can earn more by virtue of the things you know to do and do well.

00:47:33 Speaker_06
I know what I'm good at. I know I'm a very good caretaker.

00:47:40 Speaker_04
That has value. The issue is not just what you do or how much you make. It's the story that you tell about, I'm not good at this. I don't do that. So I should have been a doctor. It's probably true. But you could be an amazing caregiver of all sorts.

00:47:59 Speaker_04
And people need caregivers that are not doctors quite a bit.

00:48:05 Speaker_06
Yeah, but that's the part I can't do.

00:48:08 Speaker_05
OK. See, this is the perfect example. This is it. We just did it. We just did it. I just got inducted into exactly your role with your reaction. Here we are.

00:48:21 Speaker_04
This is the dynamic. She will come up with one idea after another, and you'll pooh-pooh one idea after another, and your strength comes from the pooh-pooh. From now on, every time she says, I don't know what to do, you say, me neither.

00:48:35 Speaker_03
OK.

00:48:37 Speaker_04
And you don't take it on. Because the next minute you're going to come up with an advice, she instantly has you involved. And now she can say no. Right. And that'll keep you in this non-adult position.

00:48:50 Speaker_04
And then you'll complain that she's not intimate with you. And on and on it will go.

00:48:57 Speaker_06
I know that I don't believe in myself and my abilities, and that's a huge stumbling block for me.

00:49:05 Speaker_04
So that may have been true for the first 50 years, and that may not remain the truth of the future. And that requires some risk-taking and trying things, and instead of defying her, defy your own limiting beliefs. Okay.

00:49:24 Speaker_04
And that's the only thing at this moment. is to bring yourself up to date from 14 to 50.

00:49:34 Speaker_06
and to not be disappointed with how things went along the way.

00:49:40 Speaker_04
Because I can't change it. It is where it is. You are both vigorous, healthy, engaged. Life is ahead of you. You are in a major life cycle transition. It's filled with possibilities. It won't be what you imagined. You enjoy each other's company.

00:50:00 Speaker_04
That goes a long way. Yes. You want that energy in your life. That's what brings the vitality. From that place will come you owning your life and redressing the origin.

00:50:15 Speaker_04
The origin is I lied and I cheated and I did this, but I also fell in love and I was... It's a double story and they coexist. You have only focused on one side. Yes. And it's not the same to say this is who I am versus saying I'm gay.

00:50:31 Speaker_04
That's not all of what you are, but it's been a part of you that has been hard to claim.

00:50:39 Speaker_07
Yes. I never looked at it as the two sides of a story. For as much bad there was good, you know, and that part of the reason I fell in love with you is just

00:50:55 Speaker_07
Like, I've never really met anyone that's just as genuine, and it's just, it doesn't want anything from anybody. Just wants to love and give, and that's so rare.

00:51:06 Speaker_04
You do this, you'll get the smile that you have on your face now, you'll hold hands the way you do now, you'll look at her with tenderness the way you just did.

00:51:18 Speaker_07
For every day that I'm so frustrated and done, an hour later, I remember why, like,

00:51:25 Speaker_04
Oh, that's welcome to marriage.

00:51:27 Speaker_07
I know.

00:51:38 Speaker_08
You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

00:51:48 Speaker_08
To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com.

00:51:59 Speaker_08
Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.

00:52:16 Speaker_04
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00:52:30 Speaker_04
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