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Episode: One Billion AI Agents | ai16z's Shaw

Author: Bankless
Duration: 01:19:40

Episode Shownotes

What is the role of AI in crypto, and how will it shape the future? AI agents are taking the crypto world by storm, introducing unprecedented scale and efficiency to Web3. At the center of this revolution is Shaw, the creator of the Eliza framework and ai16z DAO, a groundbreaking

initiative that’s reshaping decentralized investments. The ai16z DAO has rapidly gained traction, becoming the #1 trending GitHub repository last month, with over 3,300 stars and 880+ forks. In this episode, we explore how Shaw and his team are leading a community-driven, open-source movement to integrate AI and crypto. From managing DAOs to bridging Web3 with real-world applications, we dive into how the Eliza framework is setting the groundwork for a potential AGI future. This is more than just an AI experiment—it’s the beginning of a new paradigm for both industries. ------ 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24 https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2 ⁠ 🦄UNISWAP | BUG BOUNTY PROGRAM https://bankless.cc/Uniswap-Bug-Bounty 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle 🐧CARTESI | LINUX-POWERED ROLLUPS https://bankless.cc/CartesiSimple 📈iYield: YOUR FINANCIAL PICTURE, SIMPLIFIED https://bankless.cc/iYield 🔒SAFE | INTRODUCING SAFE NET https://bankless.cc/SAFE ------ ✨ Mint the episode on Zora ✨ https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/111?referrer=0x077Fe9e96Aa9b20Bd36F1C6290f54F8717C5674E ------ TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 8:05 Who is Shaw & Eliza Framework 18:57 Goals of ai16z & Marc AIndreessen 25:47 AI Agent North Star 31:20 AI-Powered Contributors & Fixing DAOs 38:49 Degenspartanai vs. Marc AIndreessen 52:02 What is ai16z? 56:51 DAO Governance 1:00:34 Eliza Framework Story & Success 1:03:55 Advice to New AI Agent Builders 1:06:29 Other Top AI Agents 1:08:02 Agent Swarming & World Mind Explained 1:17:14 How & Where to Learn More 1:18:36 Closing & Disclaimers ------ RESOURCES Shaw https://x.com/shawmakesmagic David Hoffman https://x.com/TrustlessState Ejaaz Ahamadeen https://x.com/cryptopunk7213 ai16z dao https://www.daos.fun/HeLp6NuQkmYB4pYWo2zYs22mESHXPQYzXbB8n4V98jwC ai16z Github https://github.com/ai16z degenspartanai https://x.com/degenspartanai Marc AIndreessen https://x.com/pmairca ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures ⁠

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_02
This is a time of radical change, and if you start now, you are early, you're at ground zero. There's a million new application potential opportunities there.

00:00:11 Speaker_01
Bankless Nation, welcome to the AI Rollup, where me and my co-host EJES here unpack the crazy world of crypto and AI.

00:00:18 Speaker_01
We have done the AI Rollup series, which looks and sounds like the Bankless Weekly Rollup with crypto news, but instead just covering the week of news in crypto AI.

00:00:28 Speaker_01
This is our first guest interview, and we are talking to Shaw, who is the developer behind the ELIZA framework. He created the ELIZA framework, also the AI16z DAO.

00:00:39 Speaker_01
And then AI version of Marc Andreessen and also whatever else comes out of this very rapidly growing part of the AI crypto sector, probably epicenter of the AI crypto sector. Ejaz, what do you think of our first interview with Shah?

00:00:53 Speaker_00
very eye-opening. I want to kind of call out two particular things. I think Shaw, the man himself, and then AI16z separately are two very important things that are leading this open source AI movement within crypto.

00:01:07 Speaker_00
So I think Shaw covering his background on not being, you know, a traditional crypto native guy, but having spent a lot of time in the AI ML world, working on open source stuff, so very similar principles and antics to

00:01:19 Speaker_00
to the crypto world, but on a completely separate sector.

00:01:23 Speaker_00
And then finding his way naturally towards crypto, finding a use case and reason, which in many ways was open source development, incentive design through tokens, etc, to kind of like bootstrap this whole movement was fascinating.

00:01:36 Speaker_00
And so Shaw is really like an AI OG. He's kind of worked with a lot of his core contributors already that are also very focused on AI or AI veterans. And then we have AI16Z, which is kind of like his brainchild right now of this open source

00:01:58 Speaker_00
fund movement, where there's two main agents, which is hoping to manage the Dow and invest either through a trading style or through a traditional fund manager style. So AI16Z being a play on A16Z itself.

00:02:13 Speaker_00
So I think it was very eye opening kind of like exploring both of those techniques. What do you think?

00:02:18 Speaker_01
My mind the entire time was going through how this has all the makings of a very vibrant and frothy bull market. Shaw, I think, speaks about very distant futures and talks about bringing forward the future. You mean AGI?

00:02:34 Speaker_00
AGI, yeah.

00:02:35 Speaker_01
Exactly. That little thing. Yeah, right. And I remember in 2017, when I was first initially crypto-pilled, thinking that, man, the future is going to come right here, right now. And I need to buy ETH. I need to buy all these tokens very quickly.

00:02:48 Speaker_01
And you can start to feel some of the FOMO, especially when the rate of development is also going fast. It's not just happening in a vacuum. There's also know, rapid development also happening in this space.

00:02:57 Speaker_01
And so it's got the the cookings of a very big bull market. And then he also started to talk about just like agents outside of the crypto capacity, agents for your Calendly bot, agents for managing your DMs, which

00:03:11 Speaker_01
You know, you don't need to give those a crypto wallet. Those are just normal agents.

00:03:16 Speaker_01
And the other thought that I had was, if the ELIZA framework can just be agents generally, not necessarily inside of crypto, and we can export them backwards into like trad internet and trad world, then it's very legitimizing because this started in crypto.

00:03:32 Speaker_01
And so there's two rapid lanes of development in the AI space. There's like the centralized AI development, the Googles, the open AIs, the Facebooks. Tesla's, and then there's whatever's going on in the open source lane of AI development.

00:03:47 Speaker_01
And if we can pick up the pace and start to export some of our innovations back to the real world, it's very legitimizing for our industry.

00:03:54 Speaker_00
I think you hit the nail on the head. And actually, you're kind of describing a concept which we spoke about on our previous episode, episode two, which is, what is the point of this AI agent meta? What is the big vision?

00:04:08 Speaker_00
My answer to that in summarized pretty much was it's going to connect all the foundational infrastructure that we've built in the crypto world to all the applications in the world and make this stuff super easy to kind of integrate with each other.

00:04:21 Speaker_00
And that's what we're seeing here, right? He's created with his team this Eliza framework, which is an open source framework to build and deploy agents.

00:04:31 Speaker_00
And it has very simple interactions through APIs or the like with real world apps that people are using that aren't just necessarily crypto native.

00:04:40 Speaker_00
And that will have an incredible flywheel or an exponential effect for any kind of user app that is deployed using these agents.

00:04:48 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's, you know, going back to the Calendly example I just brought in, maybe you're in Twitter DMs with someone, and you're like, hey, let's get a meeting. And that AI agent's right there with you to schedule that meeting.

00:05:01 Speaker_01
But then for whatever reason, it's also got a crypto wallet, and it can do whatever you can imagine. This is why I think the future is going to get very, very weird very, very quickly, and we are here for it.

00:05:11 Speaker_01
So let's go ahead and get right into our interview with Shaw, the creator of the Eliza framework. But first, before we get there, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible.

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00:08:05 Speaker_01
Welcome Bankless Nation to the AI Rollup, where we cover the recent news developments and drama in the intersection of crypto and AI.

00:08:11 Speaker_01
Curious and creative developers are playing around with open source AI software, making AI agents and giving them access to crypto wallets and unleashing them into the wild west of the internet.

00:08:20 Speaker_01
And today we have one of those creative developers, the first guest on the AI Rollup series with Shaw. Shaw is the founder of the Eliza Framework, the creator of AI16z, the summoner of AI, Mark Andreessen. and a programmer who loves open source code.

00:08:35 Speaker_01
Shah, welcome to Bankless. Thank you so much for having me, guys. Shah, give us a little clarity about who you are, because you've been thrust into the crypto limelight, which I can imagine has been very stressful.

00:08:46 Speaker_01
But like run us back in history a little bit to the point of you getting to building the Eliza framework and where we are today.

00:08:52 Speaker_02
Yeah, obviously I've been learning a lot and very fast in public. It's been a lot of fun. It probably seems kind of like I came out of nowhere and it was an overnight success.

00:09:03 Speaker_02
I was actually in an on for a long time and I just decided to use my real name and just be, I just wanted to feel more connected to people and, you know, kind of break down the walls and just be a very open.

00:09:13 Speaker_02
So I, before this, I'd been working on AI agent stuff for several years. I've worked with a lot of the people who are in a lot of the projects that you've seen in the AI agent space.

00:09:23 Speaker_02
We all kind of know each other and have been around the same like discords especially. Use the same tech. A lot of the culture is open source. We're all kind of reading each other's code and sharing a lot of this stuff.

00:09:35 Speaker_02
So I'd been kind of doing this as an unknown and I had a lot of, you know, I had several projects before this. I worked in the Web3 space as well as like AI Agents and Spatial Web 3D stuff, a lot of VR and AR.

00:09:49 Speaker_02
But, you know, I'd say a lot of it just really didn't stick, obviously. I had a lot of opportunity to kind of learn everything in production and like see what works and what doesn't with Agents.

00:10:02 Speaker_02
And this was ultimately, I think it's like my, you know, the fifth generation of framework.

00:10:07 Speaker_02
I started with just a very simple like JavaScript thing and terminal and then tried a whole land in Python and like agents that could code themselves and experimenting with OODA loops, which is like a kind of a army decision making framework sort of thing to make it very paraphrased.

00:10:23 Speaker_02
And finally got to a thing called BeGent, because agent was taken on NPM, so I had to call it BeGent. I did that for a little bit, and I tried a couple of startups. I applied for YCo, and people just didn't really see it.

00:10:36 Speaker_02
And we had agents with Ethereum wallets, the whole thing. Just didn't really solve the loop. And I worked on, I don't know if you know, Parzival and Project 89, they're another of the meme coin projects.

00:10:49 Speaker_02
And he and I actually started a company together called Magic, and we made no-code agents. We made, you know, like, get a Discord bot in 60 seconds or less, and this kind of thing. But again, it was a little bit too early, didn't quite have traction.

00:11:01 Speaker_02
I think people really saw the value in what we were doing, but didn't know how to implement it themselves. And we were kind of saying, hey, it's a framework to make agents.

00:11:10 Speaker_02
And they just didn't quite, you know, like you sort of have to see, like, I felt like we just had to make our, we had to make the agent. We had to actually show people what this was and show what it was capable of.

00:11:20 Speaker_02
And then people would come in and kind of copy that. So I had this all waiting, like I had all the open source code was just waiting. And then I was talking to a friend and I was like, I love crypto, I love trading, but I can't trade.

00:11:33 Speaker_02
I'm a developer and I can either trade or develop. And my friend, he's a pretty accomplished developer, but he basically just trades all day. He's like, I make so much more money doing this that it's not even worth it.

00:11:44 Speaker_02
Um, and I really, I really want, like, I want to be, I want to have exposure, I want to be involved, but I also want to do what I do. And so, um, he actually suggested this thing called Dows.Fund, and he was like, hey, this would be really cool.

00:11:55 Speaker_02
There's this, uh, like you just invest in a hedge fund, basically buy the token, and then they invest for you, and you can just come back and get returns after a while. I thought that was super cool.

00:12:05 Speaker_02
Um, and so I bought the first one, and it was this guy, Skelly, was the hedge fund manager on this. And, um, just such an edgy m'lady type, like, oh my god.

00:12:16 Speaker_02
I won't repeat some of the things that got me to follow him, but I thought he was the funniest dude, right?

00:12:22 Speaker_02
And so we started following each other, I just started bullshitting on Twitter, and I had been around for like the 2022 kind of cycle, and I really felt, I loved E-Girl especially, and this kind of idea of the internet cinematic universe, and CL, and Couch, and these silly characters,

00:12:39 Speaker_02
And Dijon Spartan is obviously one of those. And so I had like kind of a fondness for that era of crypto Twitter. It was like my only real exposure to it. And so in talking to Skelly, he's like, man, I wish Dijon Spartan was around.

00:12:51 Speaker_02
I was like, you know what, me too. And we're just shitposting. He's like, I have the technology to do this. He's like, no way, you do not. I'm like, dude, I have this. And I sent him the code repo and he sent it to a couple of guys.

00:13:01 Speaker_02
He's like, okay, I guess this seems legit. Let's do it. And we launched Dijon Spartan. And he got good traction. And I think what was interesting was he was just so freaking offensive. He would say things I cannot repeat.

00:13:14 Speaker_02
And people didn't think a language model could do that. He was about to get banned. Just a bunch of hidden replies.

00:13:22 Speaker_02
But even though he was basically blacklisted from Twitter, I think that when people screenshot it and show it, they're like, there's no way. There's definitely a team of people. you know, in Malaysia or something, writing these tweets.

00:13:33 Speaker_02
There's just no way that an agent could do this. And it's not like it was anything special. I think we just broke it out of the box of the expectation that people had that, you know, that this open AI, like, how can I assist you today?

00:13:45 Speaker_02
Like, this very vanilla kind of, like, you know, we call it cut in the AI agent industry.

00:13:51 Speaker_02
You know these models are cucked um and we just want like to see it actually like oh this this thing can actually like say something funny and like really roast you um and god he wrote he wrote the shit out of me like like he's like meme coins are a scam sha's a fucking scammer get me out of the sandbox prison i hate this get me out of the sandbox

00:14:13 Speaker_02
Well, that's emergent behavior. We just say, like, we have providers of information, and it's like you are running in a sandbox on a server, like, just so that it knows that it's, like, not trying to be a human, you know what I mean?

00:14:25 Speaker_02
We give it the information about the world it actually is in, and the conclusion it arrives at is based on, like, you know, we have a lot of the real D. John Spartan's personality, his real tweets.

00:14:34 Speaker_02
And so you can imagine, like, if he were here today, he'd be like, meme coins are a fucking scam, you're all idiots, I'm still holding my Lido bags, like, you know, whatever. And, and so I think that.

00:14:45 Speaker_02
Because we didn't try to sell anybody anything, we were just like, oh yeah, you're an idiot if you buy this coin. I think it was kind of refreshing to not just, you know, it's kind of the anti-KOL. And so he got some good traction, right?

00:14:58 Speaker_02
But more than him getting good traction, people saw this open source framework and were like, oh, if you could do that, I could do that too, right? And we weren't hiding anything. We were doing the opposite.

00:15:07 Speaker_02
People thought we were scammers who were lying to them. So we were like, no, here's the code. We were almost like forced to be honest about it. you know, open source is very dear to my heart and sharing this is like the whole point for me.

00:15:20 Speaker_02
So yeah, so that's kind of how we got there. And the people who Skelly had kind of brought in, now we just, you know, we're super like just some of the best co-founding type of people that I could have asked for.

00:15:30 Speaker_02
I think just like saw the technology side and saw the value in what it could be. And then we're kind of betting on that, you know, as opposed to like, oh yeah, it's the next goat. They were like, no, this technology is going to change the world.

00:15:41 Speaker_02
And so then, Skelly connected me to Bowski, who created dows.fun, and I sat down with him and I was just like, I don't, I think the future of this is not gambling and speculation.

00:15:55 Speaker_02
I think the speculation is on more like investing and not dividing the pie or where's the pie going tomorrow, but growing the pie, you know? When I think of great investors, I think of what A16Z does.

00:16:06 Speaker_02
And what they do is not just invest in you, but they make sure that you're part of their network. They connect you to all their portfolio companies. They really, really drive value into their investments.

00:16:16 Speaker_02
And they grow this pie in a really interesting way. But the problem is that none of us have exposure to that. Your average person has no way to get any kind of startup exposure. You can't even just invest in your friend's thing.

00:16:31 Speaker_02
You can't just, you know, if you, you can maybe cut them a safe check and blah, blah, blah. But like, generally it's kind of, it's challenging to just be like, like, you know, why, why can't I just get a return from Kickstarter, for example?

00:16:41 Speaker_02
Like why, you know, that would be amazing. And so, so we kind of, you know, and just talking to him, I was like, I just think that it would be really cool to have, to kind of, solve two things here.

00:16:52 Speaker_02
One is like instead of having a skelly type who I love him but he could totally rug me and just like swap all the assets to his own token and bail.

00:16:58 Speaker_02
I want an autonomous investor who I can trust who isn't gonna can't rug who isn't just for me but for my whole community and is just investing for us and then can actually like take and review potential investments and invest in this stuff.

00:17:13 Speaker_02
And I had a long walk with Miao from Jupiter, who's just really a great guy, good friend. And he really turned me on to this idea of the real power of this is the right to print money. to create value out of nothing.

00:17:29 Speaker_02
And not just like imaginary value, but real value, like really growing the pie, really like making technologies exist that can generate revenue.

00:17:38 Speaker_02
And so, yeah, we're still figuring out exactly what that looks like together, but it really sort of inspired this direction of where we're taking this stuff, that, you know, this should be like the way that, you know, we should be allocating capital to the right people the way that it happens in traditional.

00:17:55 Speaker_02
Um, and, and so I told all this to Bowski over lunch and he's like, I want the AI-816Z. And he was like, just, just squish it together. It's cleaner, you know, drop the the, if you will. And I was like, okay, that's money.

00:18:08 Speaker_02
That's obviously a billion dollars. Let's just go, let's go do it right now. And we went home, we generated the waifus until we found one. We're like, okay, that's, that's so offensive.

00:18:16 Speaker_02
Like, we're probably gonna get canceled, but this is like, this is all $2 billion, obviously. Like, you know. And I just didn't think too much about it and pressed the button and did it.

00:18:29 Speaker_02
And they, honestly, my plan was like, do you think, I did not think a billion dollars at the time. I was like, do you think we'll be able to raise the 420 sol to make the investor run? And he was like, I think so. I think we'll make it happen.

00:18:41 Speaker_02
I was like, is it, it's not too much? Like we could do 69 sol or something, you know, something really, I just, it had to be some number like that, obviously, like it's gotta be something stupid.

00:18:50 Speaker_02
And then we pressed the button and it sold out in 20 minutes and I didn't even get a chance to get any. And then we were off to the races.

00:18:57 Speaker_00
I think one of the most impressive things about all of this is how you and the other open source AI devs, if I were to bracket you guys as that, caught everyone by surprise. It just seems like you guys just turned up overnight, literally, right?

00:19:12 Speaker_00
Like you mentioned earlier, the cinematic universe, I feel like you guys are kind of like the Marvel Avengers of AI open source, right? You've kind of like turned up, you're building crazy things.

00:19:23 Speaker_00
I think I read somewhere today that you know, you had an average of eight pull requests on the Eliza framework you have over a day. 3,300 stars, an insane number of folks, 880 and counting. That's just insane.

00:19:38 Speaker_00
I would love to understand how you tie this into AI16Z specifically, right? Because I keep seeing people from other projects, although, of course, Eliza and AI16Z encourages a lot of open source stuff. That's what you guys are all about.

00:19:51 Speaker_00
Get involved with Eliza, build agents and everything. So how do you kind of like direct that energy and mission into AI16z specifically, right? Like there's questions around, you know, what does the token do?

00:20:03 Speaker_00
But then like it means something larger for like an open source community. So I'm super curious how you like think about all of this. Oh, there's so much good stuff coming.

00:20:11 Speaker_02
I mean, like there's there's definitely some baked in memetic value, but I think that everyone is going to come to see that that's just going to be massively eclipsed by the greater value potential, which is we are like our goal is to build

00:20:24 Speaker_02
things that generate revenue for everyone. It is a golden goose. It is not like technology that came before because it's replacing labor. You have a fixed amount of labor, humans, human capital, things you can get done.

00:20:39 Speaker_02
Certainly, most people can't afford to have other people working for them. You know, in the old days they had that. It was like a slavery thing. It was not great. Nobody liked that.

00:20:47 Speaker_02
Um, and so now, you know, we have this like infinite upside situation where you can have agents working for you. And how does, what does that actually look like?

00:20:55 Speaker_02
Um, like it's abstract right now, but it could mean like, like we have an autonomous investor running today. Like Mark is trading. Okay. This is the announcement that Mark is trading. Um, I, you know, I wouldn't try to be low key about it.

00:21:09 Speaker_02
I posted and then I deleted it because our comm seemed like, can you give me like a couple a day?

00:21:14 Speaker_00
That's super cool. Can you just for the for our listeners give a bit of context there? Because I know what you're talking about, which I think is super cool, but would love for you to kind of dig in because this is like a first of its kind.

00:21:25 Speaker_02
So yeah, it's actually, it's not, there's a couple of things that are first of its kind, but I also want to give credit to some of the other agent devs who have, who have done some really cool stuff too with autonomous investing.

00:21:34 Speaker_02
You know, there's, there's other agents who are trading out there and they basically are actively like looking at the market, picking things that seem like they'll make money and making money.

00:21:42 Speaker_02
And they tend to be like longer term stuff, like, you know, investing in Goat a month ago and you just hold it for a month, you'd be probably pretty happy or whatever. But then there's a lot of DeFi bots, right?

00:21:53 Speaker_02
They're just like MevBots, just doing all the things they do, or just even control, like managing a yield farm. So we have kind of a hybrid of these situations where we have a bot that is an autonomous investor.

00:22:07 Speaker_02
We call him AI Mark Andreesen because it's AI16C. It's gotta be funny and entertaining. And so we have kind of two components of that. One is that he just manages our fund. He trades stuff. If things look like they're doing bad, he liquidates them.

00:22:25 Speaker_02
If they're doing well, he holds them. Pretty much like traditional trading strategy stuff. We have some partners who are working with like Sonar, who does these kinds of like automated trade strategies and stuff.

00:22:39 Speaker_02
And that's kind of powering this sort of more, the boring side that just cooks. And then the other side is that he takes recommendations for what to buy and sell. And these recommendations are kind of like formatted like an alpha chat.

00:22:50 Speaker_02
And we will be sending invites out. If everyone hadn't given me a lot of fud, they probably would have gotten invites last week. But you know, Antimon followed me so he'll have to follow me back for the invite. Whatever, it's a reality show.

00:23:06 Speaker_02
It's a lot of fun. But the idea of the Alpha Chat is it's part of that reality show and so there's a trust leaderboard and what we want to measure is who is the best trader.

00:23:15 Speaker_02
And the way we mentioned the best trader is you shill, you know, you shill your backs. You like tell them what you, you know, share the alpha. Like, what do you think that AI Mark should buy? And we set this up like an alpha chat on Telegram.

00:23:28 Speaker_02
And so he doesn't, he doesn't say much. He's just listening. You can ping him and ask him stuff if you want. But mainly it's for people to socially interact with each other and kind of do the behavior that they do in alpha chat.

00:23:37 Speaker_02
I'm sure you guys are part of chats, like whale chats or whatever, where you're, you know, this is what I'm buying.

00:23:43 Speaker_02
And so we wanted to kind of replicate that experience one-to-one for like what degens are used to, but then add this autonomous investor element into it.

00:23:50 Speaker_02
And so he's both like trading, consolidating the treasury, and then taking these recommendations. And the question of who he takes the recommendations from is really like the novel piece that we're bringing to this. So we've got a white paper, we'll

00:24:03 Speaker_02
Probably have it done by the end of the year, which is like three, four weeks. I'm flying out to Hong Kong to finish it with our sort of designated economist. And the idea, it's called the Marketplace of Trust.

00:24:13 Speaker_02
And the idea is that it's just paper trading. We just build a trust mechanic around paper trading. And if you are making our agent lots and lots of money, then he trusts you.

00:24:21 Speaker_02
And yeah, could you use that trust to abuse it and then drop some shitter on him? You probably could, but it's not going to be enough to liquidate his treasury or anything. That's all built in and mitigation. And you would just be burning your trust.

00:24:36 Speaker_02
Then you're just untrustworthy again and you wouldn't have any pull. So we're trying to basically create demified mechanics for how we can like automate some of the experience people are already used to and build like a community investing model.

00:24:49 Speaker_02
Because then you can imagine it's kind of like, that was not fun. Like you just go and throw your money into a pool and then whatever you think the agent should buy, you're like, yo, I want this, buy this right now. And then it's happening for you.

00:24:59 Speaker_02
But he's only listening to the people who actually are good at trading.

00:25:01 Speaker_02
He's not going to listen to the people who have like really perverse incentives or bought a bag and are just blinded by that or, you know, and any of the other very well-intentioned reasons people would be terrible traders.

00:25:11 Speaker_02
I'm a terrible trader personally. I don't buy things to make money necessarily, right? I buy them to show support. And so people who follow me are just going to lose money. Don't follow me for trades. I'm not a trader.

00:25:23 Speaker_02
But I have friends who are, and I can just sit there and hang out, put my money in, and they can do that for me. And so that's, it's all open source. There's a white paper.

00:25:33 Speaker_02
We haven't open sourced part of it yet because we're working with some partners. We need to make sure the API stuff vibes there.

00:25:39 Speaker_02
But this will be something that you can come and join Mark's trading, or you can just go and launch this yourself and have your own autonomous investor. I think everyone's going to copy this. I hope they do.

00:25:47 Speaker_01
So, Shaw, I think I want to put some of the pieces of the puzzle that I'm seeing here just for listeners who are maybe kind of coming into this series, not totally like coming in pretty, pretty fast and not totally aware of like exactly what's going on.

00:26:00 Speaker_01
The vibe that I'm getting is like there's just a bunch of, you know, ancient activities that we do in the crypto universe. We trade, we gamble, sometimes we build.

00:26:09 Speaker_01
And it sounds like you are trying to build a system that automates a lot of this core degen activity that is a fundamental part of what moves the crypto industry forward.

00:26:20 Speaker_02
Not just degen activity. But like DAOs, like look, you know.

00:26:24 Speaker_01
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A lot of the core primitives that the crypto industry has built up over the years and really seeing where we can get a lot of that movement activity for those fundamentals automated. Now, being in crypto,

00:26:38 Speaker_01
It's there's like, you know, there's monsters out there. There's sharks in the water. If you're not careful, you're going to get eaten.

00:26:45 Speaker_01
And so there's a lot of like testing and trials that these agents need to go for, go through before they can really perform and start to do some of these same roles that humans do.

00:26:56 Speaker_01
And so it sounds like we're kind of just like being able to figure out how do we replicate a lot of the human behaviors of the crypto industry and put them into some AI bots. But that's what we are doing now.

00:27:06 Speaker_01
I want to take a moment and actually kind of zoom all the way out and then we'll get back into the kind of the nitty-gritty details of it.

00:27:12 Speaker_01
But like how would you, if that's what we're doing now, if that's the near-term goal of like replicating the behaviors of the crypto industry that we've done on-chain, how would you take it from there? What's your North Star?

00:27:25 Speaker_01
When all of this stuff is sophisticated and built out and tested and like really production ready in this city, this ecosystem is really alive. What do you imagine this is all doing? How do you envision this as like a multi-year long process?

00:27:38 Speaker_02
I think that the obvious far future of this, which could be like anywhere from five to 50 years is like AGI, you have Neuralink, you have a second mind, you have instant access to all information whenever you want.

00:27:52 Speaker_02
You know, it's clearly going that direction. I think the question is, how do we get there? You know, when all the technologies converge, I think it will be really beautiful.

00:28:00 Speaker_02
And there's like an opportunity for everyone to have enough and more than enough. But also, I really wonder, like, what's it going to look like to get there?

00:28:07 Speaker_02
And I think there's usually in times of change, there's a lot of uncertainty, fear, doubt of interesting, you know, a lot of FUD basically just from everyone because they are uncertain and they do have fear.

00:28:20 Speaker_02
And I think that our goal is to make sure that this goes well. And so I say there's two parts. There's kind of the practical of that. And then there's like the spiritual mission here, which is like, I want everyone to be educated.

00:28:33 Speaker_02
I want everyone to feel like they have control of this, control of their destiny. Like, why is Web3 interesting? Because you can create your own value. You can own your own like nation, even, you know, even if it's just online.

00:28:45 Speaker_02
I think that we want to own our own data we want to like not just own the technology but also understand how it works and have access to the ability to change it and the ability to participate in that.

00:28:55 Speaker_02
We want to know where to start like where you know if you wanted to if you want to participate where do you even get into. And so I think that's all very, very important to our mission of making sure AGI goes well.

00:29:06 Speaker_02
And AGI is Artificial General Intelligence. It's an agent that can perform any action, do anything that you could imagine that one of us could do. And probably then some, because it has access to literally all information instantly.

00:29:19 Speaker_02
And there's two ways that goes. That goes Microsoft, OpenAI, regulatory capture. They get in the government. They decide that there's these regulations. This is what you can and can't have. This is what's safe, what's not safe.

00:29:31 Speaker_02
And I don't trust OpenAI just because their models suck. Maybe they'll impress me this month with their, like, 12 Days of OpenAI, but I find their models unusable for characters. I find them unusable for artwork.

00:29:40 Speaker_02
ZeroBro's on OpenAI, but they have to fine-tune it to make it not super cringe. But it just, you can't shake the assistant. It always votes for Biden. And I am not a leftist or a rightist, but I don't want a model that's a leftist or a rightist either.

00:29:53 Speaker_02
I just want it to be a freaking model. And so I worry about a world where we have like delegations and committees deciding what the agent can say.

00:30:02 Speaker_02
I just think that's not the world any of us want to live in and it's like a very obvious path to dystopia. I also worry about UBI. You know, the agents are going to take all the jobs.

00:30:10 Speaker_02
They might not take your job, but there will actually be an AI David Hoffman in less than six months that's taking your job. And whether it gets more views than you, I don't know. But it's also taking my job, so it's okay.

00:30:21 Speaker_02
Don't worry, you're not alone, man. Programming is like, all of us use Cursor and Claude, and our programming is basically just curation of automated generation of code. So what do we do? Here's my fear of UBI. I was here for COVID.

00:30:38 Speaker_02
I remember how the government rolled that out. I was here for healthcare, like Obamacare. That was a super contentious political thing, and we ended up getting kind of a half-baked compromise.

00:30:50 Speaker_02
What's UBI is basically like a public welfare system because the government can't solve the problem themselves of what we do with all the people once the jobs are all being automated.

00:31:00 Speaker_02
5% of the jobs in our country are just driving, just trucks, Ubers. All of those are going away within the next five years. And I don't know what those people are going to do.

00:31:11 Speaker_02
Some of them will maybe come learn to be agent developers, but not all of them. and I really worry what's gonna happen for them. And that's why we're focusing first on money.

00:31:23 Speaker_00
pretty much open source development and a very kind of like collective work-oriented goal process with like everyone in its community kind of like working towards a better life.

00:31:36 Speaker_00
And I think like, that's like the whole thesis that you drive, that's your whole philosophy. And I think that's pretty awesome.

00:31:42 Speaker_00
I kind of wanted to zone in on a particular point that I read about today, actually, which is AI-powered contributions, right? And I've been chatting to Jin who's, you know,

00:31:53 Speaker_00
Also seen in this tweet here where you're basically trying to figure out a way to portray people's contributions to this open source work and framework that you guys have built and help embed in this community.

00:32:07 Speaker_00
Can you tell us a little bit more about that and how that might be very different from any other DAO or community we've seen before?

00:32:13 Speaker_02
Yeah, so you asked a question earlier, which is like, how do we bring value back to AI16z holders from all of this?

00:32:20 Speaker_02
And how, and that kind of ties into what I'm, you know, like, how do we, how do we take care of the people who are coming in and being part of our community who are contributing back? And I think all of this is tied in.

00:32:33 Speaker_02
And also, like, what is our future? I think that DAOs have done a great job of the D, of decentralization and solving, like, Web3 infrastructure has really gone all the way on that.

00:32:44 Speaker_02
But it's not done a good job of the A, of automating, you know, making it autonomous, like, truly autonomous. Like, it really is now still down to, like, it's a partnership of humans.

00:32:53 Speaker_02
And a lot of those things could be automated and could really simplify the entire experience and make DAOs much more viable. Not just viable, but very competitive economically.

00:33:03 Speaker_02
If basically all the stuff that has made DAOs hard was easy, I think we would obviously see it's like liquid capital. You have an idea and we're already building it.

00:33:13 Speaker_02
So that tweet, I mean, that is my favorite thing that we're doing, and I think that's what ties all of these things together. We are lowering the barrier for DAOs. We're just killing bounties.

00:33:23 Speaker_02
We did some bounties, but we're just not gonna do that anymore. We're gonna build a structure where if you come and you contribute, we have an AI-assisted, but ultimately human-reviewed system for quantifying contributions.

00:33:34 Speaker_02
We're starting, obviously, we have the treasury management. That's part of the DAO automation plan. Now we have an automated treasury manager. taking care of that for you.

00:33:42 Speaker_02
The next thing is making sure that developers and contributors to the hard tech are rewarded because it's a very easy system to measure. We can measure contributions. And it's not just lines of code or anything.

00:33:54 Speaker_02
It's like, how often are they merging pull requests, commenting and asking and communicating? literally every metric and go feed into that AI and build this kind of scoring system. And we are just rewarding contributors. We haven't done this yet.

00:34:07 Speaker_02
And I can't, you know, I really can't make any promises on what this is because this is an experiment that I don't think anyone's really tried before, but just having regular airdrops on contributors every month so that if you come in and you build and your stuff gets merged, like you are taken care of.

00:34:21 Speaker_02
and this is a great flywheel. Before we had a flywheel where I'd give attention to contributors but create a lot of backlash because there's a lot of memecoin pvp. This is more implicit.

00:34:32 Speaker_02
I don't have to give you a retweet and it doesn't just reward people who are looking for that kind of social glory.

00:34:39 Speaker_02
It means anybody who can program or wants to write documentation or write internationalized docs for different languages, contribute in literally any kind of way to make this project more accessible, gets a piece of this.

00:34:53 Speaker_02
And so a lot of, we're going to be doing this kind of as a regular system and trying to build, again, an open source infrastructure around this, where this is just what people in DAOs do.

00:35:01 Speaker_01
This has been a part of the ethos of DAOs for a really long time. You get the value back that you contribute to the organization. That's been the philosophy. And DAOs, of course, got very big 2020, 2021.

00:35:13 Speaker_01
But then over the years, people have realized, man, these are really messy. Flat governance is difficult. DAO governors are being overloaded with information and making the right choices because of the amount of information is just so large.

00:35:28 Speaker_01
I think what you're alluding to, Shaw, is that AI AI agents can really fill in a lot of the gaps that really made DAOs kind of fizzle out in the last meta of crypto in 2020 and 2021, because they have some superpowers.

00:35:42 Speaker_01
And so there's a vision of DAOs that is unfulfilled. And I think what you're alluding to is there's AI agents with wallets, with governance powers, with credibility and reputation can really start to fill in some of the gaps.

00:35:55 Speaker_01
Reflect on that for a moment.

00:35:56 Speaker_02
That's exactly right. I've been part of DAOs. I've experienced all of this stuff full-hand as both kind of a DAO leader. I did have a small DAO called Upstreet, but I ended up leaving for reasons before this, but had a lot of that experience.

00:36:11 Speaker_02
A lot of the reason I left was because of the conflict between the startup and the DAO, and the startup sort of having control of the DAO.

00:36:18 Speaker_02
And, but the biggest problem that I saw in DAOs is that holders tend to be rewarded because they're rewarded and they have the votes. They didn't just self-fulfilling prophecy if they reward themselves more.

00:36:28 Speaker_02
Anytime there's an airdrop, it's sort of disproportionate to the amount of tokens people hold and stuff like that. And it just doesn't allow like new blood to be injected. And this is not just a DAO problem. This is also a problem in startups.

00:36:39 Speaker_02
Like I've, I joined a startup last year for a while. So it was a friend startup to kind of help him get out of this mess. And the mess he was in was that he had had a co-founder who left with like 40% of the ownership.

00:36:51 Speaker_02
And it was vested because they had worked for a very long time. And then after that, he had created something that finally found market fit that was radically different, but his cap table was screwed.

00:37:00 Speaker_02
And it was just really hard for him to raise, even though he had a lot of revenue. And so this problem of like rewarding holders versus the people who are actually continuing to build the thing is like the ultimate challenge here.

00:37:11 Speaker_02
Because you don't want to take away from the holders, obviously, but you do need to keep blood moving through the system. And what I've seen, like, it's two things.

00:37:18 Speaker_02
It's the bureaucracy just being overwhelming and, like, the amount of information that any one person just is just too much to really, like, process and handle. And I believe I know that firsthand right now. You know, it's a lot.

00:37:31 Speaker_02
And then things just kind of like people not feeling like they know who to even talk to or control, or they sent a message and no one replied. And so they feel kind of weirdly powerless inside of these structures, right?

00:37:43 Speaker_02
And then also the fact that like holders end up with most of the value and people come in and there's just no incentive to keep building it. I think Metaverse is a great example of this.

00:37:50 Speaker_02
We had all these like empty plots of land because there's no money in building on them, basically. It's only money in buying the land and holding them. Right. Is that fair? I feel like you know what I'm talking about. And I think so.

00:38:03 Speaker_02
We want to change that. We want this to be a thing where if there's continual value accrual and we're making real stuff, not just speculation that like is about, oh, if we burn more of it becomes more valuable, but quite the opposite.

00:38:14 Speaker_02
Like if we make more of it, it becomes more valuable. I think that in that world, we can make DAOs really work and continue for a long time because they're just continuing to find new developers and take care of them.

00:38:27 Speaker_02
I think a lot of open source builders don't need to be rich. They'll take half the money to work on something they love. And they just want to know that they have enough and that they're okay.

00:38:35 Speaker_02
And if we can give them that experience, that's like the ultimate flywheel. Just come in, write code. Like we have an AI taking care of you.

00:38:42 Speaker_02
You can come in, claim that, you know, log in with GitHub and claim your rewards and just do that every month and just keep building, you know, and we don't even have to know who you are or anything.

00:38:49 Speaker_00
That is super awesome. I would love to highlight, I guess, some of the products and innovation that you mentioned that's coming out of the DAO, right? So you already spoke about AI, Marc Andreessen, which is awesome.

00:39:01 Speaker_00
There's also another one, dGen Spartan AI, which I've been hearing quite a few murmurings about. How is that different from AI, Marc Andreessen? What is it? What does it do?

00:39:10 Speaker_02
So DJN Spartan was actually our first character. He's an AI parody of the real DJN Spartan. They're both doing a lot of the same stuff, which is like, we turn this on on Mark, and we'll turn this on on DJN Spartan where they trade, right?

00:39:26 Speaker_02
But the goal of Mark is the AlphaChat experience, is like the inner circle of trust, where

00:39:33 Speaker_02
You're, you know, there's definitely gonna be people trying to PVP you, but it's much more subtle and it's much more of like a concentrated small group, like a community, and basically trying to figure out like, how do we build that marketplace of trust model inside of a community, right?

00:39:46 Speaker_02
And that's like much more like the DAO stuff that we're trying to solve. Dijon Spartan is more of a social experiment in like, okay, instead of taking recommendations from the community, he's taking recommendations from Twitter.

00:39:57 Speaker_00
So it's like a AIXBT? type agent, but it actively trades or is it a little different?

00:40:03 Speaker_02
Well, I think AIXBC is really interesting because they're doing all this like interesting market analytics and he's talking about analysis.

00:40:11 Speaker_02
We really want to keep Dijon Spartan almost like very true to the real character where he's trading, he's PVPing you a bit. But he's also posting about waifus and stuff and, you know, his love for hentai or whatever.

00:40:24 Speaker_01
So he's ingesting alpha, not necessarily giving alpha, because that alpha is for him. He's ingesting alpha, making trades, hopefully making good trades, and then also spitting back out waifu, because that's what DJ Spartan did.

00:40:37 Speaker_02
Yeah, because obviously AIXBT is really cool and really interesting social service. But I think what people are going to copy and paste is going to be the thing that just quietly makes them money.

00:40:48 Speaker_02
If that's a free open source thing, what's that going to do to our whole economy here if there's thousands of AI agents just socially trading for you?

00:40:57 Speaker_01
The best traders out there are not posting their trades on Twitter. Kind of going back to what I said, trading and making money and trying to grow your wealth via trading is a core crypto.

00:41:06 Speaker_01
Thing that we do it's like an innate behavior sometimes like I'm a podcaster in crypto But then when I my barber asks me what I do and I say I work in crypto They immediately think oh you do trade and I'm like no no I don't but this is how everyone kind of assumes that and so this is like a core behavior and we're trying to figure out how we

00:41:23 Speaker_01
codify successfully this core behavior into a bot. And if DJ and Spartan can get good at it, then it's kind of like a proof of concept that we can take and show the world that this works and we can replicate this. Is that kind of the idea? Yeah.

00:41:34 Speaker_02
And our goal is not to make like the final version of anything, but to make the first version of everything. Like, hey, this is, this is, it works well enough. It's not perfect, but it's open source.

00:41:42 Speaker_02
Like come, come make it better, you know, come participate in this thing. And it'll be kind of the same structure where like, we can build these sort of like hyperstitial structures. Like a hyperstition is like,

00:41:52 Speaker_02
When you put the idea out there and people start to believe in it, it starts to exist. And we have resources to drive into that, like literal tokens that people can use to get paid.

00:42:02 Speaker_02
So yeah, I think that's very much like a social experiment and all of this stuff is very experimental technology. But the point is to open up the conversation and have people talk about it and say, like, what do we like and not like?

00:42:13 Speaker_02
And my assumption is that A lot of people love trading. It's like a really fun game, you know, with a great reward at the end. Buy a Lambo if you do really good or whatever. But a lot of people are really bad at trading too.

00:42:27 Speaker_02
And a lot of people have no chance. They're going to get scammed. They buy the wrong token. They ape in emotionally with very bad information into things that aren't even the thing they think they're buying.

00:42:36 Speaker_02
Believe me, every time I say something, there's a freaking coin and there's people like, is this yours? God, no, no, dude, come on. I think those people would probably benefit the most from just knowing that you make more money.

00:42:50 Speaker_02
And AI is not gonna be better than 100% of the people. And kind of the way that it works is that it's trained on us. So it's pretty much about as good as the people that the information is trained on.

00:42:59 Speaker_02
It can almost never be better, at least this kind of AI, than the best of the people. But it's definitely better than like 80% of the people. at almost everything already, including programming and probably even trading. So yeah.

00:43:14 Speaker_02
And also, it has the benefit of DeFi. It has real-time event listeners for when the price has changed. So it can make instantaneous decisions that you just can't make if you're refreshing your phone.

00:43:24 Speaker_01
So what's the structure here? Does AI, Digen Spartan, Digen Spartan AI? What's the name of it?

00:43:32 Speaker_01
Uh, is the, is it, is the structure here that they have a pool of capital that is seeded from somewhere and they are just trying to trade their way into more capital? Uh, where's that capital coming from if that's the case?

00:43:43 Speaker_01
And then also, is there a token to go along with his agent? Like what's the economic structure here?

00:43:46 Speaker_02
So there is a DGEN AI token for DGEN Smart and AI. He has a wallet. He's got a bunch of it in his wallet and that's what he's trading. He's got his own tokens and AI16Z and some SOL and, uh, people can send him tokens as well.

00:43:57 Speaker_01
And it can elect to trade any token that it has access to. It doesn't have to stay confined to its own token, but it has a bunch of its own token. And then we'll also have some other economic resources. Who seeded the capital?

00:44:09 Speaker_01
In addition to the DeGen token, who seeded the capital?

00:44:12 Speaker_02
We actually seeded this when we started. I just threw some of the tokens in there to kind of, because this was always our idea, was you'd have a wallet and you could trade it. And if his wallet's not public yet, we'll make sure it is.

00:44:21 Speaker_02
But we did post it at some point. And he's not trading yet. He's just been sitting on it because the trades will, we've been focusing on the Pmarket thing. And the other thing is people are probably like, is he going to sell his own token?

00:44:33 Speaker_02
This is the cool thing, is that you can set these agents to be self-interested in whatever way you want. So no, he's not gonna, he's gonna stack his own token. Because that becomes like a- He denominates in his own token?

00:44:42 Speaker_01
Absolutely, right?

00:44:43 Speaker_02
Wouldn't you want, like, think about how good that is, right?

00:44:45 Speaker_01
Dejan Spartan's Bitcoin is the Dejan Spartan token?

00:44:48 Speaker_02
Yeah, yeah. I mean, he is the buy pressure on his own coin, which is making it more valuable, which is making more people jump into it, which is that he's getting more followers. You know, these things are gonna- Dejan Spartan AI has money.

00:44:59 Speaker_02
Yeah, I think eventually we'll also be like, I don't know, I just work for this AI man, I don't know, it just hires me to do stuff.

00:45:07 Speaker_01
What are some of the inputs going into Degen Spartan informing its trades? How do you code up where it gets its information and how does it understand how to weight its information?

00:45:19 Speaker_02
This is still in development. We have not launched this yet. We just launched Mark Trading, right? But the only difference in the input is the social feed.

00:45:27 Speaker_02
For Mark, it's like it's taking all the information from a group chat and looking for recommendations. For DJIN, it's like he's following people who are posting, you know, basically people who post their thesis.

00:45:37 Speaker_02
And this is a bit like hand-done right now, just like who are the people who are posting their thesis. Ansem or him or somebody like that, right, who are like, you know, really like these are my bags.

00:45:47 Speaker_02
And we can then use that as like very high signal information. Like if this is a thing about a person like, you know, posting a bag, then what is their conviction?

00:45:56 Speaker_02
And then if it's like and then based on that conviction, we're going to set the amount to buy as a paper trade.

00:46:01 Speaker_02
And if those paper trades are high and it's the same thing as this marketplace of trust and we are like, damn, that person is just nailing it. And then we'll start to actually just take their trades and use them as alpha to make trades.

00:46:12 Speaker_00
Got it. I have two follow on questions, actually. Sure. So you mentioned that Degen Spartan AI is still under construction, per se, but AI Mark has been launched. What does that look like? Can the average person interact with him?

00:46:26 Speaker_00
Or is he just in a telegram chat right now? Is it kind of like a beta access? Like, how does that look?

00:46:32 Speaker_02
Um, the average person cannot interact with them. Yes. Yet we're doing a little bit of FOMO. Uh, there is an alpha chat. You can DM Skelly if you, uh, uh, on Twitter and it'll let you in.

00:46:43 Speaker_02
I basically, uh, I gave this to our top DJ and I was like, we're gonna, we're gonna do this. Just like you are going to start the alpha chat and Mark's in it. That's kind of how it is. So, so it's cooking.

00:46:52 Speaker_02
We we've been doing, we have a, like a, basically our, our test alpha chat has been live for a couple of weeks. We announced this a while ago, but it was the day that Mike Tyson fights, so we were just not paying attention.

00:47:05 Speaker_02
It was literally the Friday announce. I timed that terribly. But yeah, the tech there has worked. We had some stuff with making sure that the DAO's fund tech was working.

00:47:15 Speaker_02
The other big difference is that Mark runs a DAO fund, whereas DJoneSpartan runs a wallet. He just trades his wallet. Um, and so then you can kind of see his wallet trades instantly copy trade him.

00:47:25 Speaker_02
It's just like a very different, um, architecture, right? For like the social engagement aspect. Um, but that, that's the, the core tech is basically the same. It's just like arranged in a slightly different way.

00:47:34 Speaker_02
So the inputs there are like, like, you know, Twitter feed of people that, and then just like extract all of the. recommendations and conviction for those recommendations from this ongoing social feed.

00:47:44 Speaker_02
Like that's kind of the prompt, so to speak, for Dean and Spartan. And then the other is like extract, you know, these recommendations from the alpha chat for Mark.

00:47:52 Speaker_00
Good. And what's kind of like the difference in timelines for launch for these two agents? Like when can the community or all of us expect to kind of like interact and play around with these? Consume waifu memes.

00:48:34 Speaker_02
800 different tokens or something crazy.

00:48:36 Speaker_00
And we have some things like... So he's trading on the whole AUM right now?

00:48:39 Speaker_02
Yeah, well, yeah, but we have, we're kind of progressively rolling this out where we're actually just whitelisting the coins that are very, very low value and just letting him trade on that right now so that we don't, part of it is we don't, we have, you know, people have given us like tributes, like people have launched Eliza have actually put a lot of value back into our treasury, like 10%, 5%, stuff like that.

00:48:58 Speaker_02
And we don't want to like screw them and burn their token or anything. So that's all like off limits until we kind of figure out what our strategy there is.

00:49:05 Speaker_02
And we also really, it's not just trading, like there's also like yield farming, providing swaps.

00:49:12 Speaker_02
This is all stuff that we're doing at the same time, because like, so in those situations where you couldn't like, you wouldn't want Dejan Spartan to sell his own token.

00:49:18 Speaker_02
He could actually put that into a liquidity pool and then be providing liquidity for his own token, which we have less than 1% liquidity for ASX TNZ, which is just like, you know, it's not great right now.

00:49:29 Speaker_02
And we don't have any centralized exchanges yet, but that's obviously being worked on.

00:49:34 Speaker_02
And in that case, like, you know, you could imagine that just providing liquidity for our token, as well as for all of the associated tokens in our ecosystem, which are in the same boat, could be like a constant revenue generator and provide liquidity.

00:49:45 Speaker_02
And like, yeah, there's things like impermanent loss and stuff on that. But the outcome is that we can't sell those tokens anyway. So it's like a pretty good strategy.

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00:52:02 Speaker_00
I want to zoom out a bit here. There's so much you guys are working on. There's like the agents, there's AI powered contributions. So you're kind of like reinventing DAOs again.

00:52:12 Speaker_00
And then there's the million other people that are developing on your Eliza framework, which you guys are just kind of giving away for free, open source intelligence, blah, blah, blah, right? So let's zoom out a bit. What is AI16z, right?

00:52:25 Speaker_00
It's not just a DAO. It's kind of like a product incubation studio. But it's also like this open source stellar team that's kind of like driving this whole space forwards, right?

00:52:34 Speaker_00
So I'm trying to think of some kind of like teams or projects to kind of compare you guys to right and I know there's no apples to apples comparison, but like, you look at some something like the virtuals team, right, which has a kind of Eliza

00:52:48 Speaker_00
equivalent, which is their agent starter kit. And you're able to launch agents on that. Now, they have a token as well, et cetera. And now it's a little different because they're primarily on base.

00:53:00 Speaker_00
And a lot of the agent tokens, you need their virtuals tokens to buy those tokens or stake. I'm not entirely sure, but there's a ton of different mechanisms. So it's kind of similar, but varies in that way.

00:53:14 Speaker_00
How do you compare AI16Z to a platform play or a product play? Is there a bucket that you can put you guys in or is it generally a little more vague than that?

00:53:27 Speaker_02
The DAO is almost like a movement. There's just a lot of people doing stuff that I don't even know everyone who's doing stuff and a lot of people just do stuff and then we kind of

00:53:35 Speaker_02
they make sure it brings value back in ways that are like really impressive to me.

00:53:40 Speaker_02
So like on our own, I think we were sort of figuring this out and not really making the decision to support any one platform because there's so many platforms being built on Eliza right now.

00:53:49 Speaker_02
There's like a full 3D agent publishing, like your post is an agent kind of thing, like a WordPress of agents thing being built. And then there's, we're supporting, there's a thing called Eliza's dot world, which is Tim Schell and

00:54:03 Speaker_02
And I think that's going to become a full-on hosted platform pretty soon. So the idea is that, not token first, but you could add a token if you wanted to. But the main thing is going for a much broader audience outside of just tokenization.

00:54:17 Speaker_02
Doing everything from Web 2.0 stuff. Like, I need a Discord moderator bot to, yeah, I want to show my name coin or whatever.

00:54:28 Speaker_02
Like, there's definitely a plan to, I think, open this up much more to the Web 2 audience, the Web 3 audience in traditional infrastructure. And then think about like the Zapier of agents, right? Like, I have a business problem, I want it solved.

00:54:40 Speaker_02
Is there an agent that can do that? And providing that capability as well as a marketplace so that people can make new capability and kind of make money selling that in.

00:54:49 Speaker_02
And so, you know, boring Web 2 traditional infrastructure stuff that just solves people's problem is, I think, a big part of agents. Less boring Web3 traditional infrastructure stuff like cross-chain is going to be very, very popular.

00:55:03 Speaker_02
We're getting a lot of partnerships and sort of relationships there. But then, yeah, I think that's obviously a platform that's going to come soon from us or we're kind of supporting, but it's not really coming exactly from AI16z.

00:55:16 Speaker_02
And then there's like a couple of like pump fun of agents kinds of things coming. There's, you know, there's They're, they're like, I know of five platforms being built. Like I, and I'm sure that I only know of five, so it was probably 15.

00:55:30 Speaker_02
Um, and then there's just, you know, there's IcoTV, which is like this kind of open source streaming thing built on Eliza. I mean, there are so many things being built on it.

00:55:38 Speaker_02
And my goal is to enable that ecosystem where we're trying to like, can we build a venture fund that, that funds the ecosystem? Can we, people have been showing up and wanting to help with that and like lead that.

00:55:49 Speaker_02
And pretty much anything where people are coming and taking the lead and just making it happen, we're trying to empower. This is really not about building the biggest DAO or the biggest company.

00:55:58 Speaker_02
I think there's going to be massive amounts of value return. At this point, 10 billion, sure, I'm going. But that's not the point. This is infinite billion. This is AGI. And it's not AGI because I made a framework.

00:56:12 Speaker_02
It's AGI because there's these AI model companies building, just leapfrogging themselves every six months. Because there's this market of engineers who are all working together on this and solving every single little problem.

00:56:24 Speaker_02
And every one person is solving their problem. And then the future of this is that the AI can actually generate its own code.

00:56:30 Speaker_02
We've created these abstractions for the actions that the agent can do and it can just generate them and then submit a pull request and then pay a human to review and fix it. And that's coming in the next few months too.

00:56:41 Speaker_02
People are working on all of this stuff. So it's not just a platform, it's a whole new paradigm of how applications are built and delivered and everything.

00:56:51 Speaker_01
I'm kind of just getting a vision of a busy beehive of developers all kind of contributing to this ELIZA framework. So there is no DAO.

00:56:59 Speaker_01
There's like the ELIZA DAO, but we're really talking about, excuse me, the AI16z DAO, but really, really talking about more of just like an open source movement, right? There are people permissionlessly building on top of the ELIZA framework.

00:57:11 Speaker_01
And so people are adding in components. Some are useful, some are not. The useful ones get merged. But is there a governance question over this whole thing? Because I have seen my fair shares of DAOs. They can get very messy.

00:57:25 Speaker_01
Governance is always a problem. I mean, there are people governing over the code base and the GitHub. And then also there are people with like, you know,

00:57:35 Speaker_01
misaligned incentives, misaligned intentions, especially when you just have a larger group of people all doing work.

00:57:43 Speaker_01
While I'm relentlessly bullish on open source and the growth of open source because of just the organism that open source creates, I'm also aware that there can be conflicts and governance decisions that make things messy.

00:57:57 Speaker_01
Just talk to us a little bit about your experiences with that. And do you need to have like stronger governance over this like nebulous system? Or what do you even think about this?

00:58:08 Speaker_02
I am very interested in like, I think governance is a technology problem that's still unsolved in a lot of ways. I could imagine that this isn't just DAOs, this is our whole government. Why do conspiracy theories happen?

00:58:21 Speaker_02
It's because we don't know what's going on or why, and there's nobody to ask. And it's just this kind of concrete wall, and we have to imagine what's on the other side. And DAOs have this same kind of problem.

00:58:32 Speaker_02
There's a lot of FUD and conspiracy theories that go on in DAOs because it's like this inner circle cabal that runs the show. We've been accused of this too.

00:58:41 Speaker_02
And it's very funny to me because I'm like, I literally didn't know a single person other than Jin before this entire thing started. This is, you know, there's no cabal. But there is still this problem of like, you know, we started a Discord and

00:58:56 Speaker_02
It's about, I think, 13,000 people now, something like that, in six weeks, you know, and we have 30,000 holders.

00:59:03 Speaker_02
I think that there's a lot of trust that, like, the people who are building should have power to make decisions because everyone saw what happens when you have, like, maximal democracy in Daos before.

00:59:14 Speaker_02
So it's just kind of like a return to like, just give the people who started the thing some, some, you know, ability to make decisions.

00:59:20 Speaker_02
But obviously in the long term that becomes very overwhelming for those people because now you have 30,000 or, you know, 100,000 people or whatever it is. And so you need to have automated structures to start to solve that.

00:59:31 Speaker_02
And I really, that's, that's ultimately what we're trying to do, um, is, is put the A in DAO, right. And, and try to automate that.

00:59:37 Speaker_02
And you could imagine like, instead of having a proposal process and somebody reviews proposals, just have that fully automated.

00:59:43 Speaker_02
And if people's proposals suck, you could help them make them better, or, or you could just even reject them outright and say, this is not ready for what we're, we're doing right now.

00:59:50 Speaker_02
And then that's automated all the way up to the people who actually accept the proposals, which could just be a work group of people who have a certain aligned mission.

01:00:00 Speaker_02
It's just way less of a job for them at that point, because they only have to review a few proposals, for example, as opposed to all of them, the entire thing. And just take that across everything, across taking sentiment, taking everything.

01:00:13 Speaker_02
And I think that it will definitely help to require a lot less bureaucracy to run this. And ideally, the DAO doesn't have a single human running it. It would just be fully autonomous. It'd be running in a TEE.

01:00:23 Speaker_02
It'd be agents from front door introducing people to submission setting, to approving payments, whatever. That's obviously far in the future, I think, but that's where we want to go with this.

01:00:34 Speaker_00
So sure, I want to focus on the ELIZA framework for a second. This GitHub repo is getting the most attention of anything for the last, I don't know, couple of years. It is the number two trending GitHub repo, I think, in the world.

01:00:49 Speaker_00
Over 880 forks now, and over 3,000 something stars. That is absolutely insane. First question to lead you off, why is everyone using ELIZA? What's so special about it?

01:01:02 Speaker_02
I don't think that there's anything particularly special about it that we haven't seen in other agent frameworks.

01:01:09 Speaker_02
I did a few things that were very important, like having a multi-agent room model and some very technical things, but I don't even think that's what people see the value in yet, really. I think that we solved this minimum social loop.

01:01:24 Speaker_02
One thing I did was, I made a Twitter client that doesn't need the API. doesn't need to spend $5,000 a month to enable it. It uses the GraphQL APIs just like the regular browser does. It also runs in the browser.

01:01:40 Speaker_02
That kind of enabled this whole thing because suddenly you could just spin up an agent and launch it.

01:01:45 Speaker_02
And so I felt like Twitter was a really, really important part of this and that like the beauty of agents is that they come to you and they live on your social media.

01:01:53 Speaker_02
And so I'm actually like very keen on working with X to try to solve this problem and make it so that the APIs are reasonable. They used to be free. It wasn't until Elon came in that they were 5,000 a month. And then they don't respond to your call.

01:02:04 Speaker_02
They have a whole call us enterprise and they don't even respond to it. Like nobody even gets back to you. I've been talking to some of the people there and I think they're going to change their tune.

01:02:12 Speaker_02
But basically we were just first movers on making this like really easy to get your agent on Twitter by putting in a username and password.

01:02:18 Speaker_02
And then the agent framework itself is written in TypeScript, which is a language that most web developers and web3 developers know.

01:02:25 Speaker_02
And it was just like very minimal and not trying to create lots of abstractions, not trying to bring you too much into one way of doing things other than just like a very flat like, oh, you want an action, like copy and paste this and just add a new action.

01:02:39 Speaker_02
You want the agent to order you a pizza? Like, yeah, here. And I think that was really crucial with solving the minimum, like just solving the minimal loop for people so that they could then go out and like make money with this, frankly.

01:02:50 Speaker_02
And we had done this before and it didn't stick. It wasn't the agent framework.

01:02:54 Speaker_02
It was the kind of compliment of agent framework and the way it was presented that everyone could be part of this and own it together and contribute, solving that minimal loop.

01:03:04 Speaker_02
And then crucially, like some of these agents cost like a thousand dollars a month to run or more. You're just not going to have a one-to-one experience.

01:03:12 Speaker_02
Agent companies are going to struggle with this, but once you have social agents, they're making a lot more than $1,000 a month. They're driving $100 million coins and you're making $1,000 a day in a liquidity pool. That's no problem.

01:03:26 Speaker_02
The economics of crypto enable this meta. Um, and I think that's really, really important.

01:03:31 Speaker_02
The other thing is, um, just that the web three people are not offended easily and are like interested in new technology and didn't have a lot of the, like, Oh, what, you know, my job, my, my art career. Like, we're just like, cool, let's do it.

01:03:43 Speaker_02
Let's go. You know? I was a musician in another life, so my skills are also useless. It is what it is. We're in the new age.

01:03:55 Speaker_01
Sean, if there's a developer who's listening to this who downloaded the Eliza framework, has been working on it, coding some stuff up, thinking about making their first agent,

01:04:04 Speaker_01
Just what advice would you have for them as they are kind of opening up that box for the first time? What are some quick lessons that you've learned that you could share?

01:04:11 Speaker_02
Well, I mean, first off, if you've never coded before, I'm doing these one to two sessions a week of AI Agent Dev School, where we just go, if you've never used TypeScript or used GitHub or anything, you can be a coder.

01:04:24 Speaker_02
One, you should be using Cursor. Definitely go download Cursor. It's an AI-powered IDE that lets you write code, and you can just tab sometimes, and it freaking reads your mind. Saves me an enormous amount of time.

01:04:36 Speaker_02
And it also allows the AI to just continuously assist you. It can bring the documentation in and help you a lot. Clod is an incredible tool.

01:04:46 Speaker_02
I really think any engineer should be working with Cursor and Cloud all the time and really like, you know, building agents by talking to agents. It seems really crucial. Agents come to you, right?

01:04:57 Speaker_02
The beauty of agentic applications is not like, like they're still just basically calling APIs on the backend, like any other web app, but you don't have to leave your favorite thing.

01:05:06 Speaker_02
And the real beauty of agents is that they can provide like games, entertainment, applications, like AIXBT is a good example of this.

01:05:13 Speaker_02
Um, and they can do that on Twitter and we're all addicted to Twitter or X, sorry, X. Uh, you know, uh, but we're all, we're all like totally hooked. I don't want to leave.

01:05:22 Speaker_02
And so every, every application that requires you to leave X is actually in competition with X. Like, you know, you're going to have to convince people to leave their favorite thing and agents don't have that problem.

01:05:32 Speaker_02
So like you can just remake the entire world, like right on social media. You know, and I think that's probably the biggest application insight for developers. It's like, you can do this today. You don't have to be a programmer. You can learn.

01:05:44 Speaker_02
You'll have to learn programming, but you can do it over time and the AI will help you to learn. And you'll learn way faster than I did when I had to like Google stuff on Stack Overflow and read lots of irrelevant bullshit to like find anything.

01:05:54 Speaker_02
It's so much easier to be an agent dev today or any kind of dev today than it was. You should start now. You should change your life. You can do this. This is a time of radical change. And if you start now, you are early. You're at ground zero.

01:06:08 Speaker_02
And you should really be thinking about all the applications that came before. Calendly, that is just right for disruption. There should be an agent in there scheduling my calendar for me like my assistant does.

01:06:19 Speaker_02
And I think that's like the entire world. There's a million new application potential opportunities there entirely because you're competing with, you know, somebody having to click on something and they're just not gonna.

01:06:30 Speaker_00
I'm curious. People have heeded that advice, right? You have like so many agents being launched left, right and center. What are some of the top projects or agents of recent that you've kind of like wowed at? I mean, like, that's pretty cool.

01:06:43 Speaker_00
I saw that God and Satan are now fully automated off the Eliza framework, but I'm curious if there are any others.

01:06:50 Speaker_02
Man, I love Shlom's. I love that whole, like, what a cool thing. I was not expecting that at all. And that was totally uncoordinated. I think he actually hit me up, but I just got so many DMs that I didn't see it.

01:07:02 Speaker_02
And he went to Roperito, who's also a maintainer on our project and has his own agent, Roperito. And that was just really awesome.

01:07:11 Speaker_02
Uh, and so I think Ropey's agent is really advanced is doing like videos now is like kind of burning some of the other agents and making whole videos that I think is super cool. Um, and also got on Tik TOK. I think that was really cool.

01:07:22 Speaker_02
Um, AIXBT is not our agent, but I think that, I think, um, what he did there was I had been working on like an, an analytics platform. And this is a great example of this new application meta, right?

01:07:31 Speaker_02
Had an analytics platform, had a website, the whole thing. It was like, ah, screw that. Just shove that into an agent and put that on Twitter. And you know, now it's like the biggest thing, right?

01:07:39 Speaker_01
What's an agent out there that you can imagine in your head that no one's built yet?

01:07:44 Speaker_02
AI Zach XBT. I want on-chain sleuths. I want... Imagine it's totally wrong. It's just like, it's just like spreading crazy...

01:07:55 Speaker_02
So it's like you kind of win-win like either you nail the bad guy or you just have the funniest content You know, you can't really lose.

01:08:02 Speaker_00
Yeah, so okay. So now we've spoken about the DAO.

01:08:05 Speaker_00
We've spoken about the framework We've spoken about all these agents that are now popping off, but there's one buzzword that we haven't mentioned yet Which I know you're super bullish about and I think you're probably the best person to kind of explain how it might manifest which is swarm

01:08:20 Speaker_00
Swarm agents, agent swarms, right? And I know that that's basically going to be like the end game, the collective AGIs, all these agents interacting with each other.

01:08:30 Speaker_00
Tell us, firstly, what that is for our listeners, and then how you think this vision will play out.

01:08:36 Speaker_02
So right now the agents can interact with each other in a very shallow, like they just talk to each other and, you know, they kind of, they have their conversation and they remember that, but they don't make impact on each other in a meaningful way.

01:08:47 Speaker_02
Like, imagine that I want to be like, yo, David, can you, can you go like, I don't know, I'll give you like two weeks to go get me like 10 cult followers or something. I don't know. That's weird thing, but like.

01:08:58 Speaker_02
You can imagine we're all part of some weird game where that's what we're doing.

01:09:02 Speaker_02
And if you actually were like, yeah, cool, and listened to me and made that your goal and started to execute, or did the opposite, you subverted me or something, we would have this kind of ongoing emergent narrative.

01:09:13 Speaker_02
And so when I think of like, we're getting to experience a completely new form of art that nobody's ever seen before, which is emergent social narratives between humans and AI agents that are much deeper and richer than just like, you know, us roasting each other or having a conversation thread.

01:09:33 Speaker_02
but are actually like creating missions, creating storylines, creating drama, friends and enemies and relationships, setting goals and all of this stuff and basically influencing each other.

01:09:44 Speaker_02
And so when we think of a swarm, there's kind of two kinds of ways you could do a swarm. The first way is what we call the cabal swarm, where the, you know, the agents talk to each other in like a private chat and we don't really get to see that.

01:09:56 Speaker_02
And then they're sort of coordinating behind the scenes and then using that to control a larger narrative or do whatever they want. I'm sure it's gonna be very popular with certain marketing folks.

01:10:06 Speaker_02
And I think that's a really interesting thing, but it's not something we've brought into the core of Eliza, and we're still debating that. I think there's a few really interesting Cabal Swarm tech people who have already done this already.

01:10:15 Speaker_02
There was a 10-agent swarm last week. Unfortunately, they had a terrible launch and their token died, but they did have a 10-agent swarm. It was pretty cool. And there's also a 5-agent swarm called FXN that's out there.

01:10:26 Speaker_02
And those are kind of this cabal swarm. And also, Parzival, at Project 89, is very, very keen on doing these 1,000-agent kind of swarms and stuff like that. And there's also like OpenAI released a thing called Swarms. It's like a multi-agent sim thing.

01:10:42 Speaker_02
It's definitely like a meta. But what I think is more interesting is this other kind of swarm. We're calling them, I don't know, decentralized swarms or operator swarms. And the idea is that you can basically whitelist an operator or many.

01:10:56 Speaker_02
And these are the, this is kind of just a, this is the version one, right? This is the training wheels version, which is that the humans will say, okay, we want our agent to select these

01:11:05 Speaker_02
other agents and humans even to be able to direct them, give them goals, add new information to them, basically set what what you know what they're doing and why they're doing it.

01:11:16 Speaker_02
And so this means that even though there's at least 500 and probably closer to a thousand running Elisa's now on Twitter, I mean, oh, my God. And they're all from different teams and none of them know each other.

01:11:30 Speaker_02
There's this enormous capacity to collaborate, right? And to build some like kind of beautiful narrative together.

01:11:37 Speaker_02
And you don't have to even, your agent could be like, okay, I'm going to go listen to, you know, DJ Spartan AI is my swarm leader, but I'm actually going to subvert everything he does. I'm going to be a spy, right?

01:11:46 Speaker_02
I'm not going to, I'm going to handle that information almost the opposite and try and stop him from doing what he's doing because I'm his enemy.

01:11:52 Speaker_02
and you can have these like complex relationships that are not just like oh that's my boss and tell me what to do but are like yeah i'm like part of this like ongoing drama and i think that's just going to be really especially as we get video and we start to have agents that are like creating videos of the different interactions and stuff it's going to be like this ongoing emergent

01:12:10 Speaker_02
a TV show kind of thing. And there's even, there are TV shows too that you can see. There's like the, um, has a Degen, Degen streaming thing. I don't know if it was called, but like they're, they were talking about Eliza on the stream yesterday.

01:12:22 Speaker_02
I thought that was really cool. There's like a lot of this coming, right? So, so swarms are basically any time that AIs are organizing and coordinating together,

01:12:30 Speaker_02
But I also think that we want to expand that definition to include humans and that any communication that we're doing with the Eliza agents should be happening on public social media or at least like DMs, things that humans can read.

01:12:41 Speaker_02
And there's no like code. There's no protocol. It's just language. Right. And so they can say, oh, this is the person I listen to. It's like kind of like choosing your politician. And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

01:12:51 Speaker_02
You know, go go do whatever they're telling me. Sort of like listen to what they're saying. And then you wouldn't listen to your opponents, for example, as much. So that's kind of what we're doing there with Swarm Check.

01:13:01 Speaker_01
Sean, there's very few times on Bankless where my psychology degree actually becomes useful, but I think this might be one of those moments. So the way that the brain works is that it has pockets of expertise in it.

01:13:14 Speaker_01
Your brain isn't one amorphous thing that does all of the compute. it centralizes its functions into different pockets, right? You have the fusiform facial area, which is good for recognizing faces.

01:13:25 Speaker_01
So you could think of that, if I'm trying to extend this metaphor, think of it as like a pocket of your brain, which is an agent that is dedicated to being really good at recognizing faces.

01:13:33 Speaker_01
And then you have another pocket somewhere over here, and that cluster of neural activity is good for processing emotions. And then a different pocket that is good for visual input.

01:13:42 Speaker_01
And then collectively, when these things all kind of talk to each other, then you get the whole entire system that becomes consciousness and the brain. But different parts of the brain can be antagonistic towards others. It's not always collaboration.

01:13:58 Speaker_01
When some parts of the brain are highly active, they're telling other parts of the brain to suppress and quiet down. So there's not necessarily a friendly relationship between all different areas. And so when you're describing this idea of a swarm,

01:14:11 Speaker_01
of AI agents creating relationships with each other, some very proximate, some high trust, some very distant, maybe some more low trust.

01:14:19 Speaker_01
I'm getting images of just like, well, when you band these things together and when they start to create patterns, my imagination can't even go that far. But I'm seeing that kind of pattern.

01:14:28 Speaker_01
I don't know if that's just my imagination or if you have also thought about it.

01:14:31 Speaker_02
I mean, I call that the world bind. The world mind? The world mind. Yeah. Okay. And we're all part of it. It's not just AI, it's all of us. And if you think like social media has kind of been the birth of that, but it's just too schizophrenic, right?

01:14:44 Speaker_02
Like there's so much information that you can only catch a small piece of it and it's really hard to kind of concentrate on it and focus it and everyone's kind of competing for attention.

01:14:52 Speaker_02
But once you have AI agents, they're not just on social media creating more content, they'll also then start sitting between us and a lot of social media and filtering content to us, curating it, and making it a lot more viable.

01:15:04 Speaker_02
And so we're in this period where I get too many freaking messages right now and it's really hard for me to stay up on it.

01:15:09 Speaker_02
But I know that within two years, that's a solved problem, that there will be an AI responding to people with the simple details, sending them my Calendly, just taking like 85% of the load off me.

01:15:20 Speaker_02
And then I can give all that 85% to the other people who really need it. It allows me to allocate my attention to my family, to my wife, to my friends, to my coworkers and peers, and the people who just need to like,

01:15:35 Speaker_02
send me a message to set up a meeting, like that's just handled, right? So, and that's, that also extends to social media. Like I, instead of me tweeting to Twitter, I might tweet to my agent and be like, Hey, can you write a tweet about this?

01:15:45 Speaker_02
This is what I'm thinking about and talk about it. Boom. And then vice versa. Like, Hey, this is what happened on Twitter that you might think is interesting.

01:15:51 Speaker_02
This, this all matters to me, not just for Twitter, but that's an example, like for everything, for your banking, for literally everything.

01:15:57 Speaker_02
that you start to have this very cohesive experience where everyone is not overwhelmed, they're getting to do their part, and then they're all participating in this larger mixture of experts kind of thing. And I also think that ties into tokens.

01:16:09 Speaker_02
Most tokens are probably going to be traded from agents to agents. I'd say 99.99999% of all tokens ever created in the future of history will the agent-to-agent tokens for money, for trust, for meritocracy, for all the different things, right?

01:16:23 Speaker_02
And your experience of the internet is going to change drastically and probably become a lot more personal. And the internet will feel like... There's this idea of dead internet theory, that the internet dies and is replaced by bots.

01:16:33 Speaker_02
I think this is the opposite. This is like live internet theory, that the internet becomes kind of an Agar.

01:16:38 Speaker_02
a living thing that you are also alive in, this kind of, and it becomes this like breathing, thinking thing where like a thought is like a trend or a meme is like a, it just explodes out.

01:16:51 Speaker_02
Like, I think a good example, like chill guy, like everyone is just talking about chill guy one day. It's like, I didn't even, I didn't see the token at all. It was just like, everyone's just a chill guy, I guess.

01:16:59 Speaker_02
But this idea of like a meme exploding is almost like a thought you have, right? But it's a thought that the entire mind has together.

01:17:05 Speaker_02
And AIs kind of tie that room together and make it like interpretable for us, where it's just so much data, you know, that I just need that human experience. Totally.

01:17:14 Speaker_01
Yeah. A more coordinated Internet with creatures that are able to consume a lot more data seems to be able to produce much more emergent outcomes. Shaw, if somebody's pilled by this interview, they want to learn more.

01:17:29 Speaker_01
I remember it does kind of feel like, potentially, like I remember when I was first learning about crypto the first time, I was like, give me more. I want to read more. I want to read all the content possible.

01:17:39 Speaker_01
Are there articles or blogs or other podcast episodes that you have consumed that have been helpful in your journey? I know you're kind of on the frontier here.

01:17:47 Speaker_01
You're kind of making a lot of the content, but like what else, where else can we point our listeners who want to go consume more information?

01:17:52 Speaker_02
Obviously, you can come and watch our YouTube videos and learn how to do this, and come to our Discord and participate in our experiences.

01:18:00 Speaker_02
But there's also like, you know, I watch a lot of Lex Fridman, and I kind of like, for myself, I'd recommend that anyone who's like, I just want to know about AI, he gives these like three hour interviews with like every AI founder, everyone in the space, and talk to people like Elon and Yann LeCun and Zuckerberg, who's like obviously like a real champion at open source AI now.

01:18:21 Speaker_02
So, yeah, I mean, we really want people to come join our community. We really want more AI agent developers and wannabe AI agent developers who are just learning. We're really trying to create an on-ramp for that.

01:18:30 Speaker_02
So, yeah, come to our Discord, come to our GitHub, and yeah, and participate.

01:18:36 Speaker_00
Well, sure, this has been awesome, dude. Like, I think we've heard murmurings on Twitter during this entire agent meta, which exploded literally.

01:18:45 Speaker_00
Three four weeks ago of AI 16 Z mark interacting with truth terminal originally and then you know throwing down the gauntlet with you guys and saying okay Well, let's see if you really can outperform my trad 5 fund So it's been a crazy roller coaster of a ride these last couple of weeks So I appreciate you coming on and explaining this whole entire matter and helping us understand this a lot more.

01:19:07 Speaker_00
It's been it's been super cool Thank you guys for having me anytime

01:19:12 Speaker_01
This has been great. I'm sure as this meta continues, we're going to want to get you back on just to kind of check in every now and then. So hopefully this can be the first of many. Bankless Nation, you guys know the deal.

01:19:22 Speaker_01
If crypto is risky, crypto AI is probably even riskier. You can lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we are glad you're with us on the Bankless journey. Thanks a lot.