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Episode: Moroni 10 Part 1 • Dr. Anthony Sweat • December 16 - 22 • Come Follow Me

Author: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Duration: 01:10:35

Episode Shownotes

What would be your final message to future generations? Dr. Anthony Sweat explores Moroni's many exhortations to the Latter-day Saints. He discusses how the Holy Ghost will manifest after inquiring of the Lord with real intent regarding the integrity of the Book of Mormon.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM51ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM51FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM51DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM51PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM51ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/tzI1K8GhKgwALL

EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 Part 1 - Dr. Anthony Sweat04:31 Dr. Sweat’s bio06:16 Come, Follow Me Manual07:53 Moroni 10: The Breakdown and Exhortations10:49 Title Page Preview and exhortations18:46 Gratitude and tender mercies20:42 Knowing God’s character24:44 Moroni 10:3 - Exhortation to remember27:47 The patriarchal blessing we deserve33:02 “Man of Sorrows”34:57 Moroni 10:4 - Exhortation to ask37:40 “Did this point me to Christ?”40:06 Tripod of Truth42:42 Exhortation to recognize the gifts of the Spirit46:08 Moroni 10:9-16 - Gifts of the Spirit50:29 Moroni 10:17 - Manifestation of the gifts55:41 Moroni 10:4 - Intent58:25 Hank’s experience praying about Moroni 10:401:02:51 Moroni 10:19 - Exhortation to remember Three Great Gifts01:07:58 Moroni 7:45 - the effects of charity01:10:59 End of Part 1 - Dr. Anthony SweatThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Full Transcript

00:00:04 Speaker_01
Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I am here with my merciful co-host, John, by the way. John, this is a special episode of Follow Him because it makes four years of Come Follow Me episodes.

00:00:24 Speaker_01
You and I have been studying the scriptures with some of the most brilliant people for four years. What would you say that experience has been like for you?

00:00:33 Speaker_02
It's been, how did I end up here? That's what I ask myself. How do I get to sit here and mark up my scriptures? And then, Hank, you know this, wherever you go, people grab you.

00:00:45 Speaker_02
Yesterday, two different people, hey, I'm listening to you right now, type of a thing. I always tell them, it's our guests. Our guests are the secret sauce. I know you feel that way too. We've had some amazing scholars.

00:00:56 Speaker_01
Aha moments, wow moments, things I'll never forget moments, fills my heart. Well, John, four years ago, we were getting started in a hurry. If you remember, we had just made the decision to start.

00:01:09 Speaker_01
The incredible Steve Sorensen, our founder, had said, we got to go. I called a close friend and said, can you come on for our very first episode? And I think it was maybe two days away. And he said, absolutely.

00:01:24 Speaker_01
John, just to put the bow on it, he's back. For our lesson, this last lesson in the Book of Mormon, Moroni chapter 10, we have Dr. Anthony Sweat back with us. Anthony, welcome. Welcome to follow him.

00:01:42 Speaker_00
What a joy, what a privilege to be on. I was thinking about it myself when you guys invited me to be on for this Moroni 10.

00:01:48 Speaker_00
I thought, I've been so lucky to be friends with you guys both for years, and we've done a lot of things together in various avenues and venues. as teachers.

00:01:59 Speaker_00
I was lucky enough to be episode number one, kicking this off with the Doctrine and Covenants, and didn't know we were filming, and I hadn't shaved for a day or two, and I was wearing my little hoodie and didn't even know we were on camera.

00:02:10 Speaker_00
He had a hoodie on.

00:02:11 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:02:12 Speaker_00
Now four years later, you've gone through all four books of Scripture, and we're on the very last chapter of the Book of Mormon, and what a blessing and privilege to get back on and close out the Book of Mormon with you.

00:02:22 Speaker_00
You guys have done, incredible is not the right word. It's been almost miraculous, divinely blessed, wonderful work. And I know there's many, many, many countless people that listen.

00:02:34 Speaker_00
We're so grateful to you and all those on Follow Him that make this possible. So I'm just honored to be here and be with my friends, that I love you both so much and get to be with people out there who are listening.

00:02:47 Speaker_01
It's a joy. And we feel like a team. We feel like a family. Our listeners as well, John, when I talk to people, they say, thank you so much for the podcast. And I say, thank you for listening.

00:02:59 Speaker_01
I honestly do feel like our listeners are our partners in this work. I think everybody would join with us in thanking the Sorensen family for making this possible the last four years.

00:03:10 Speaker_01
So supportive, not only with their resources, but frequent texts I get from the entire family talking about what they've been learning and how grateful they are. And we remember Steve.

00:03:23 Speaker_02
We wouldn't be here without him. What a blessing that Steve's vision has been for literally millions. It's hard to fathom.

00:03:31 Speaker_00
These are the kind of things that there's public faces and then there's behind the scenes people who make things happen and well, the Sorensen family and everybody involved with Follow Him, but particularly their family and making this happen to bless so many lives, how they've supported and pushed and encouraged.

00:03:52 Speaker_00
They just want to bless people's lives with, fill them with the spirit of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I think the Lord has, in his mercy, given a gift of grace on that effort on this show, and it's been beautiful to watch.

00:04:06 Speaker_01
To the Sorensen family listening today, we love you so, so much. Thanks to that same Sorensen family, we are going to pick up with the Doctrine and Covenants once again next year, different guests for different lessons and different angles.

00:04:25 Speaker_00
You mean everything hasn't been said and learned that could possibly be learned from these scriptures?

00:04:30 Speaker_01
Incredible. Incredible that you could look at them again and get even more from them. We're excited that after our Christmas episode next week, we will be in the Doctrine and Covenants once again. Such a joy.

00:04:45 Speaker_01
Everyone come with us on the journey again through the scriptures. John, let's do it again. Give us a bio for our guest this week, Dr. Anthony Sweat.

00:04:59 Speaker_02
I'll do that. Dr. Anthony R. Sweat, got the initial in there. He received a bachelor's in painting and drawing from the University of Utah, and his master's in education and PhD in curriculum and instruction from Utah State.

00:05:14 Speaker_02
Dr. Sweat's the author of several books and articles. In fact, I've purchased a number of copies of The Holy Invitation, and then he followed that up with The Holy Covenants.

00:05:24 Speaker_02
which are really helpful for my boys as they prepared for the temple before they went on their missions. So I thank you personally for that. Oh, I love to hear that. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely.

00:05:35 Speaker_02
His research centers on factors that influence effective religious education. He taught in seminaries and institutes for 13 years. His paintings center on previously underrepresented important aspects of church history to promote visual learning.

00:05:52 Speaker_02
And Anthony, his wife Cindy are the parents of seven children. We're just really glad to have you back.

00:05:57 Speaker_00
I'm just grateful to be with you guys and with all the listeners out there and study the Scriptures together and talk about them.

00:06:03 Speaker_01
Anthony did not ask me to do this, but you can go over and read and learn all about Anthony at his website, Anthony Sweat, S-W-E-A-T, that's right.

00:06:13 Speaker_00
Just like perspiration.

00:06:15 Speaker_01
Yeah. AnthonySweat.com. Go over, learn about the art, learn about the books. Such great work that Anthony is doing, really. Anthony, let's begin. I'm going to read from the Come Follow Me manual.

00:06:29 Speaker_01
John, we should probably thank whoever is putting these manuals together. These are incredible. The opening paragraphs, the questions, the ideas that they offer. Fantastic. Here's how it starts. Come unto Christ and be perfected in him. Moroni 10.

00:06:45 Speaker_01
The Book of Mormon opens with Nephi's promise to show us that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen because of their faith. The book closes with a parallel invitation from Moroni.

00:06:58 Speaker_01
Remember how merciful the Lord hath been. What examples of the Lord's mercy have you seen in the Book of Mormon?

00:07:06 Speaker_01
You might think of the merciful way God led Lehi's family through the wilderness, across the waters, the tender mercies he showed to Enos when his soul hungered for forgiveness, or the mercy he showed to Alma, an enemy of the church who became one of its fearless defenders.

00:07:21 Speaker_01
Or your thoughts might turn to the mercy the resurrected Savior showed to the people when he healed their sick and blessed their children. Perhaps most important, all of this can remind you how merciful the Lord has been to you.

00:07:35 Speaker_01
For the Book of Mormon was written to invite each of us to receive God's mercy, an invitation expressed simply in Moroni's farewell words, come unto Christ and be perfected in him. So, Anthony, what do you want to do? Where are we going to go?

00:07:53 Speaker_00
I like to look at the big picture structure of the book. And in this chapter in particular, even in the original 1830 Book of Mormon, Moroni 10 was its own chapter.

00:08:02 Speaker_00
The chaptering in the 1830 for the whole book of Moroni is the same as it is in the current chaptering.

00:08:08 Speaker_00
This is a concluding message by Moroni as he's getting ready to wrap up this great book of his father, who's really been our guide through the whole thing. He's wanting to make some last statements.

00:08:22 Speaker_00
So big picture, I like to break down and say, what is he doing? My breakdown of this is in verse 1 to 2. He is doing an introduction, like, hey, I'm going to seal this up. I'm getting ready to finish this out. He's letting us know.

00:08:34 Speaker_00
I know he's tried to do that before, but he's like, no, I'm serious this time. Verse 3 to 7, he's going to give us our invitation to receive and ponder and ask that we'll talk about.

00:08:47 Speaker_00
Then I want to connect and talk about we can't disconnect the invitation from the gifts of the Spirit on verses 8 to 18. That's a logical connection there that I want to talk about with you that I think is important for us to realize.

00:09:02 Speaker_00
After he gives those gifts of the Spirit, he's going to touch on the three greatest gifts that I want to talk about, faith, hope, and charity, without which you and I are nothing.

00:09:12 Speaker_00
And then he's going to end with his own personal declaration about the truthfulness of his words in verse 27 to 29. and then give his final exhortation to come unto Christ and be perfected in him and meet us all at the pleasing bar.

00:09:26 Speaker_00
This is a powerhouse chapter and I'm excited to look at each of these a little bit more closely.

00:09:32 Speaker_01
Anthony, it's almost as if Moroni has found his spot up on that hillside in New York and he says, oh, this is it. I can see him creating that cement-like box, sitting down and penning these last words, knowing that this really is it.

00:09:51 Speaker_01
He's going to bury this record. I like what you said there. There has to be a connection in his heart to his father. That's why some of the things his father gave him that we've read before in the letters and the sermons, I think that's on his mind.

00:10:06 Speaker_00
Yeah, he's going to bring those right back in. You know, we don't know this, but I like the connection you just made. On the title page he says, written to the Lamanites. In verse 2 he says, I'm going to seal up these records.

00:10:16 Speaker_00
In the title page he says, written and sealed up. In verse 32 of this chapter he gives this exhortation to come unto Christ. In the title page he says, it's to convince everybody that Jesus is the Christ.

00:10:28 Speaker_00
Then in verse 34, he's going to say, to meet you at the pleasing bar of Jehovah. And then in the title page, he says that you may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ. There's this connection.

00:10:39 Speaker_00
We don't know when, but he moves very quickly from inscribing Moroni 10 to inscribing the title page of the Book of Mormon. They're directly connected in my mind.

00:10:49 Speaker_02
Yeah, when I begin a Book of Mormon class, I like to show them the title page, and we've all heard that formula of tell them what you're going to tell them, then tell them what you've told them.

00:10:58 Speaker_02
The title page has covenants that they may know, the covenants of the Lord, that Jesus is the Christ. I think on the title page, it uses the phrase that you may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ.

00:11:10 Speaker_02
And then you go to the last page in the Book of Mormon, and you've got that they may know the covenants of the Eternal Father, which he hath made, yea, coming to Christ. And the last words in verse 33, that ye become holy without spot.

00:11:21 Speaker_02
Covenants and Christ, and how do we become spotless through the atonement of Christ? And yeah, they are so connected.

00:11:28 Speaker_01
And by the way, that's just good writing. I tell my students all the time, don't write your first paragraph until you've written your last paragraph. Until you know what you're going to say.

00:11:36 Speaker_00
As Moroni is constructing and concluding this last chapter, he says in verse 1, more than 420 years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

00:11:46 Speaker_00
In verse 2, and I seal up these records after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. And that's going to be a thread through this whole chapter is I want to exhort you on some things.

00:11:59 Speaker_00
He's going to speak to the Lamanites and then to everyone. in verse 24, but these words of exhortation are for us all. And to exhort means to advise or to encourage. Like, I want to speak some words of strong advice or encouragement.

00:12:15 Speaker_00
There's different words, but the way it's translated is exhortation. I just went through and I highlighted his exhortations. I found eight of them in this chapter.

00:12:25 Speaker_00
In verse 3, he says, I would exhort you that you remember how merciful the Lord has been. Verse 4, I would exhort you that you would ask God, the eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true.

00:12:38 Speaker_00
Verse 7, exhort you that you deny not the power of God. Verse 8, exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God. Verse 18, after he lists the gifts. Exhort you, my beloved brethren, that you remember that every good gift cometh of Christ.

00:12:57 Speaker_00
Verse 19, exhort you. My beloved brethren, that you remember that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, will never be done away. Verse 27, exhort you to remember these things.

00:13:13 Speaker_00
And in the previous verses, they were the things that if the gifts are done away with, there must be no faith. You have to have faith. Verse 30, the last one, and I would exhort you that you would come unto Christ and lay hold upon every good gift.

00:13:28 Speaker_00
and touch not the evil gift. You see a thread here of what he's trying to get them and exhorting them to remember.

00:13:35 Speaker_00
There's a link of, I'm going to exhort you to remember and have these gifts and know who they come from and they come by faith and this will bring you unto Christ to lay hold upon the best gift, the gift of his atoning grace to be perfected in him.

00:13:52 Speaker_00
Really good writing. Direct us through this chapter and that could be a fun way to study it at home. or in church is to say, let's find these exhortations.

00:14:02 Speaker_00
What have you learned about these, or how would you encourage or advise people on these subjects?

00:14:07 Speaker_01
The etymology on exhort goes back to thoroughly encourage.

00:14:14 Speaker_00
I like that. Wow.

00:14:17 Speaker_01
Sounds like what I do with my children and their chores. I exhort you.

00:14:21 Speaker_00
I thoroughly encourage you. I'm using that this next Saturday. Children, I exhort you to actually not put that under your bed. Let's start with the first big exhortation in verse three. I'm going to read these because these words are so powerful.

00:14:42 Speaker_00
Behold, I would exhort you that when you shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that you should read them, that you would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men from the creation of Adam, even down until the time that you shall receive these things and ponder it in your hearts.

00:15:02 Speaker_00
And when you shall receive these things, I would exhort you. Now I'm going to pause there before we get to the second exhortation.

00:15:09 Speaker_00
It's curious to me that he's telling us, obviously when you read these things, it's the whole story of the Book of Mormon, as you mentioned in the Come Follow Me manual.

00:15:18 Speaker_00
But he wants us to reflect and ponder and really let it rest into our hearts how merciful the Lord has been to these people and therefore to us. Ponder it in your hearts. It seems to be saying, ponder how merciful God has been.

00:15:38 Speaker_00
to his children in the history of the world and in this history of the Nephites in particular and then in verse four and when you shall receive these things now there's debate on this it could be read two ways and I want to acknowledge both ways and when you receive these things meaning the whole book of Mormon or when you receive these things like when you receive an understanding of how merciful God has been he wants us to ponder on that

00:16:06 Speaker_00
Then I want you to ask God in the name of Christ. You can read it as, when you get this book, read it and pray about it, and God will manifest to you that it's true. But it can also be read

00:16:17 Speaker_00
Really think about God's tender mercy with his children and let that rest on your soul.

00:16:23 Speaker_00
And when you get that, ask God if that's not true, that he is a merciful and a loving God who is involved in his children's lives and wants to help and direct and guide and bless and lead and ultimately save and redeem and cleanse and purify and perfect.

00:16:44 Speaker_00
Let all of that sink in your heart. and then ask God about it, and you'll get a witness that that is true, that that's the kind of God that we're being led by, and that this book testifies of that.

00:16:55 Speaker_01
I think sometimes we as humans try to simplify things. That can be a good thing, but we may have simplified what we call Moroni's promise a little too much.

00:17:06 Speaker_01
It's sometimes taught as, read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, God will tell you that it's true. But that's not what Moroni says. There seems to be much more of a recipe to this.

00:17:20 Speaker_01
Yes, the Book of Mormon asks God about the Book of Mormon, but ponder God's mercy. The Book of Mormon almost leads me to say, God is merciful. Let me look at that through all of time, not just in the Book of Mormon.

00:17:36 Speaker_00
And even when you go back to Nephi, this book is so incredible. In 1st Nephi chapter 1, Nephi says, he gives us his thesis statement and it's centered on mercy.

00:17:48 Speaker_00
I will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he has chosen because of their faith. Nephi from the get-go is wanting to say, let me show you how merciful God is.

00:18:01 Speaker_00
There's something to pondering on that truth, that God loves his children and he continually reaches out that He so loves the world that He gave His only begotten Son, and that He wants to save us and redeem us and exalt us, justify and purify.

00:18:19 Speaker_00
That seems to be what He wants us to really ponder in our hearts. And as people are listening to this right now, I would invite you up front, ponder on that truth. That's when these spiritual gifts will open up. where the Spirit will say, that is true.

00:18:36 Speaker_00
And this book is teaching you that truth of a merciful God who reaches and reaches and reaches and never stops reaching.

00:18:46 Speaker_02
I had a class from Daniel Ludlow. His sons are also religious educators.

00:18:51 Speaker_02
He was going through verse three, and he asked the question, where would you learn how merciful the Lord has been from the creation of Adam, even down until the time you receive these things?

00:19:01 Speaker_02
And he said, it sounds to me like you have to read the Bible to learn how merciful God has been since the creation of Adam. Then when you ponder it in your hearts, as you're saying, fill you with gratitude for the tender mercies.

00:19:14 Speaker_02
And I've got in my margin, gratitude is the gateway to revelation. Gratitude is kind of a twin of humility, wouldn't you say? Then you realize you have a lot of gracious blessings, some tender mercies that come with that.

00:19:29 Speaker_02
I've always loved the idea of gratitude. I feel like gratitude is an answer to so many problems. I love that he wants to get us in that frame of mind, like you just said, Anthony, of ponder how merciful God has been.

00:19:43 Speaker_02
And if we're going to learn how merciful he's been since Adam, it's not just going to be in the Book of Mormon. It's going to be through the records of God's mercies in the Bible, wouldn't you say?

00:19:56 Speaker_00
It makes me think to the title page too, you are not cast off forever. When you ponder these things, these tender mercies, if everybody who's listening just thought, has God reached out to me? When I reach to him, does he reach back?

00:20:12 Speaker_00
Have I felt his mercy with forgiveness, with love and grace and healing where we can say, yeah, I need to ponder that in my heart. I really need to let that rest on my soul. The Book of Mormon seems to be shouting to us, God is ever reaching to you.

00:20:30 Speaker_00
As a child of the covenant, you are not ever, ever, ever cast off. It's almost like Moroni is wanting us to think about that, that concept very deeply.

00:20:42 Speaker_01
Anthony, since we have a Joseph Smith expert here in you, wasn't this a central teaching of the prophet that you have to know God's character? How can you worship a God you don't understand?

00:20:55 Speaker_00
That seems to be central to what Joseph Smith teaches. That's in the lectures on faith, that one of the first principles of faith is to know the true character of God.

00:21:04 Speaker_00
There is something to what Joseph and every prophet who has come to know God, including Moroni here and his father Mormon, they're all saying, every woman and every man who has come to know God, get to know his character.

00:21:22 Speaker_00
Because once you get to know his character, you can really have faith and you can have hope and you can have charity. I don't want to get ahead of us, but that seems to be where Moroni goes too.

00:21:31 Speaker_01
If you look at the time the Book of Mormon comes forward in 1830, what is the view of God in Protestant America?

00:21:42 Speaker_00
this is really the height of, the most classic one is Jonathan Edwards, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.

00:21:48 Speaker_00
No faith is a monolith, but there definitely is some churches out there who are teaching a very merciful God, and there are churches who are teaching a God who is upset and angry and wrathful and vengeful.

00:22:01 Speaker_00
It almost seems that Joseph himself is trying to figure out which God is true. And when he goes to a grove of trees to pray, ponder this in your heart for a second. You're praying out loud, and Jonathan Edwards is saying things like, God abhors you.

00:22:18 Speaker_00
That's a direct quote. God abhors you. You are like a spider that he wants to dangle over the pit of hell. He'll consume you in flames. And then Joseph prays, and what comes out of heaven? A pillar of fire. No wonder Joseph says, at first I was afraid.

00:22:41 Speaker_00
I'm making assumptions here, but maybe Joseph was thinking, oh no, Jonathan Edwards was right. God does abhor us. But the very first words of the Restoration are, Joseph, my son, thy sins are forgiven me, according to the 1832 account.

00:22:58 Speaker_00
Joseph learns from the beginning that God is just, of course, and God has wrath for the rebellious who reject and fight against Him, but His mercy knows no end to bring His children to Him and to forgive and to lovingly guide.

00:23:17 Speaker_00
Joseph learns that from day one in a wooded forest in 1820.

00:23:24 Speaker_01
I've thought when he tells his mother, I've learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true, that he might be saying, I've learned that God actually loves his children.

00:23:33 Speaker_00
No, that's an interesting insight. Do you remember when he says in one of his accounts, he says that after the first vision, that his heart was filled with the love of God and for many days I could rejoice and the Lord was with me.

00:23:47 Speaker_00
He's saying, I experienced the tender mercies and the love of God and how real that really is.

00:23:54 Speaker_01
How excited the Lord must have been to let the world know, this is who I am.

00:24:04 Speaker_02
That's exactly what I was going to say. One of the accounts where he said, my soul was filled with love for many days. It's one thing to know, yep, God exists. wow, the flood of knowledge after the restoration was, and what kind of being is he?

00:24:19 Speaker_02
And then we get, oh, he's merciful, he's loving, he's kind, he's in relentless pursuit of us, all of those things. And still, Satan's spin machine is out there, no, he'll never forgive you, no, God's mad at you, no, you're not worthy for this, no.

00:24:35 Speaker_02
We have to keep coming back to where we're learning what God is really like, not just that he exists, but what is he really like?

00:24:44 Speaker_01
What advice would both of you give to someone on how to ponder God's mercy? That's the exhortation in verse 3. Remember how merciful the Lord hath been from Adam and Eve to you. That's a lot to think on. Take that into your heart.

00:25:00 Speaker_00
That's a great question. We probably can't help but reflect in our own lives right now, even in my own life. As a teenage boy, I was way more concerned with being cool than I was with being kind.

00:25:12 Speaker_00
On my mind was being an Allstate basketball player, not an Allstate priesthood servant. My seminary teacher called my own mother my sophomore year and said, every time your son enters my class, the spirit leaves. That's true.

00:25:29 Speaker_00
By the way, that's a true story. It's true that he said that, or it's true that the spirit left? Which one? It's true of both. Ponder both of those in your hearts because they're both true.

00:25:41 Speaker_00
The Lord, he reached out to me in his tender mercies and led me and helped me and encouraged me and I knew I should serve a mission. My mission was a transforming experience for me where I really came to know the Lord.

00:25:55 Speaker_00
But when I got home, I felt led into religious education. I got hired to be a full-time seminary teacher after I graduated from college. I went to one of my first meetings and there was that same seminary teacher.

00:26:08 Speaker_00
And he saw me and he just goes, Tony Sweat, is that you? And I went, yep. He's like, are you a seminary teacher now? And I just smiled. He just gave me a big hug and he goes, the church is true. The church is true.

00:26:27 Speaker_01
The prodigal has returned.

00:26:29 Speaker_00
The prodigal has returned. That's just one of a thousand stories that I could tell where I've seen the Lord be beyond merciful to me and to so many that I love and that I've taught and ministered to and served over the years in different callings.

00:26:49 Speaker_00
Part of pondering it in our hearts is what you and I are doing right now. We're reflecting on it. We're talking about it.

00:26:56 Speaker_00
I sometimes say to all the young men, young women's leaders out there, quit doing the sweet and sours at the start of your class, where you're wasting. Instead of saying, hey, give us a sweet and sours, like something positive, something negative.

00:27:11 Speaker_00
I change it to sweet and saviors. I said, just tell me something sweet about how you've seen the hand of God in your life. And suddenly people still shared, we still got to know the kids just the same.

00:27:24 Speaker_00
But suddenly now they're centering it on how they've seen the hand of the Lord in their life. And they start to reflect on his tender mercies is really what they're doing. And they're pondering it in their hearts and you start to see the hand of God.

00:27:37 Speaker_00
That's why President Eyring told us to keep a journal and write that down because we'll see God reaching, reaching, reaching all the time.

00:27:47 Speaker_01
John, I've told you this before, that I did not get the patriarchal blessing I deserved. The one I deserved was probably, Hank, it does not look good. You have a lot of unearned confidence, but the one I got was so uplifting, so kind.

00:28:08 Speaker_01
So you're going to be this, you're going to be that. You can do these great things. Anthony, I'm the same as you. And I think back, man, the Lord has been good, beyond good.

00:28:21 Speaker_01
We've said this before, John, when you ask the Lord for a fork, he gives you the whole house. This is what you want in there.

00:28:30 Speaker_02
Well, sometimes it can be more than you bargained for. Hey, which church should I join? Oh boy, what happened after that, right? And now we're all sitting here in the Intermountain West.

00:28:42 Speaker_02
Get a Book of Mormon, go through it, and highlight every time you see the Lord's mercy. Be life-changing. But if you're wondering if he's merciful to you, or if you feel like you need that mercy, go get a new copy and go through it and mark it.

00:28:56 Speaker_01
When we mean God is merciful, we don't mean that God is going to save you from all pain and all trial. Because I might be out there thinking, well, God hasn't been merciful to me. Look at all the difficulties I faced.

00:29:12 Speaker_01
How would you teach that mercy and trial and tribulation come together?

00:29:18 Speaker_00
This is a really important distinction to make because sometimes we can confuse God's mercy with life being easy and pain free. I think number one, just theologically, we need to understand we're in a fallen world.

00:29:32 Speaker_00
Let's never forget Jesus' own teaching, the sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust equally. We are going to experience loss, sorrow, pain, difficulty, trial, simply because we're fallen.

00:29:49 Speaker_00
Now, the tender mercy to me is that in the midst of difficulty and challenge and loss and pain and trial, God reaches out through His Holy Spirit and through His Divine Son to say, I see you. You are of worth. You're my child.

00:30:09 Speaker_00
You're not cast off forever. I love you. Trust me. My Son will forgive you. I will strengthen you. I will help you. I will be by you. It doesn't take away the pain. All of us right now, of all the people listening, there's pain, there's hardship.

00:30:30 Speaker_00
There is in our three lives right now. And that doesn't negate the fact that God reaches out through His Holy Spirit. And in essence, He whispers, I love you, and I'm with you, and I'll help you ultimately

00:30:47 Speaker_00
I will redeem you, and I will recompense, and I will strengthen, and He gives all the promises through Christ. That is the way we ponder on those mercies even in difficulty.

00:30:59 Speaker_01
One of the biggest takeaways for me was our episode this year on Mosiah 18 with Dr. Melissa Inouye, who ended up passing away just weeks after we recorded. Two things she taught. One,

00:31:14 Speaker_01
that the fact that God says you're willing to mourn with those that mourn, comfort those in need of comfort, and bear one another's burdens, says that there's going to be a lot of people that are in need of those things.

00:31:26 Speaker_01
There's going to be a lot among us who are mourning, a lot among us who have heavy burdens, a lot among us who need comfort. And do you remember what she said, John? She said,

00:31:35 Speaker_01
We stand as witnesses of God to those very people to let them know that God is still there, that maybe they can't see him in those terrible trials, but the fact that we're standing there, stand as a witness of God still loving them in their mourning, in their heavy burden, in their need of comfort.

00:31:58 Speaker_00
That's beautiful. Let's not forget, in context, Moroni is writing this after he has seen his people wiped out, and his father killed, and he's been alone for decades. He is telling us, remember how merciful the Lord has been.

00:32:18 Speaker_00
If anybody can speak to mercy in trial, it's Moroni.

00:32:22 Speaker_01
That is such a good insight that I had not seen, Anthony. Look at who's writing this. If he can say that in his circumstances, almost anyone. Yeah. Could say that.

00:32:37 Speaker_02
Yeah. So powerful. It kind of be like getting a calling and saying, well, I'm tired. And then we look at the president of our church.

00:32:49 Speaker_01
I looked the other day and saw that I think eight members of the Quorum of the Twelve are younger than President Nelson's oldest child. These are just kids.

00:33:02 Speaker_02
This reminds me of something Elder Neal A. Maxwell said once.

00:33:07 Speaker_02
He said, therefore, how can you and I really expect to glide naively through life as if to say, Lord, give me experience, but not grief, not sorrow, not pain, not opposition, not betrayal, and certainly not to be forsaken.

00:33:21 Speaker_02
Keep from me, Lord, all those experiences which made thee what thou art, then let me come and dwell with thee and fully share thy joy. First time I saw that, I thought of the words of Isaiah about Jesus, a man of sorrows acquainted with grief.

00:33:35 Speaker_02
And I was like, yeah, he's outlining all the stuff the Savior went through. But when we're talking about mercy, it doesn't mean life is easy.

00:33:44 Speaker_02
And our friend Brad Wilcox, I loved what he said, that a God who is asking nothing of us is making nothing of us. To make us into what he wants to make us into, we're going to have adversity.

00:33:55 Speaker_01
I think you're right on there, John. When I read verse 3, how merciful the Lord has been, and how we tied that back to 1 Nephi, where Nephi says, I will show unto you the tender mercies of the Lord.

00:34:09 Speaker_01
I think of that talk, Elder Bednar, The Tender Mercies of the Lord. Now that talk was very impactful for me because I started to look for those in my life and others' lives. And you see, the Lord is very active in a one-by-one ministry.

00:34:25 Speaker_01
working with people and timing his blessings for them, tailored to them. Me personally, I would encourage everyone this week to go listen to Elder Bednar.

00:34:36 Speaker_01
I think it was his first full talk in General Conference, The Tender Mercies of the Lord, and then keep a Tender Mercy journal. That might be part of pondering God's mercy in your heart, keeping track.

00:34:50 Speaker_01
Anthony, we've been at it a while now and we've gone through a whole three verses. So let's keep going.

00:34:57 Speaker_00
Let's go from verse four in Moroni's promise and connect it through the spiritual gifts, which is something that often doesn't happen. If you look in verse four, and when you shall receive these things,

00:35:10 Speaker_00
And that could be the book or the stories from Adam, the Scriptures down, or that could be when you receive the Lord's tender mercy, when you understand how much He loves you.

00:35:20 Speaker_00
I would exhort you that you would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true.

00:35:25 Speaker_00
And if He shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, which I've heard some interpret as intent to obey the message that comes, with real purpose to follow,

00:35:40 Speaker_00
Having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things.

00:35:50 Speaker_00
These are some of the most oft-quoted, oft-cited, oft-shared, oft-promised verses in the whole Book of Mormon. I think we do ourselves a disservice, though, if we stop there. And we can analyze verse 4 and 5 more. But while we're going, keep going.

00:36:08 Speaker_00
to 6 and 7 and 8, and notice when he says, you're going to have something manifest to you by the Holy Ghost, and he's going to tell us what that should be. In verse 6, whatsoever thing is good is just and true.

00:36:25 Speaker_00
Wherefore nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is. And ye may know that he is by the power of the Holy Ghost.

00:36:35 Speaker_00
Wherefore, so back to the point, I would exhort you that you deny not the power of God, for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men. The same today and tomorrow and forever.

00:36:49 Speaker_00
And again, I would exhort you, my brethren, that you deny not the gifts of God. Now keep coming with me, because you're going to see the connection. For there are many, and they come from the same God,

00:37:00 Speaker_00
And there are different ways that these gifts are administered, but it is the same God who worketh all in all. And they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men to profit them. Now, I'm going to pause here.

00:37:15 Speaker_00
Make sure you make the connection when we're giving Moroni's promise in verse 4, that he's going to manifest to you. I would highlight or mark that word in verse 4.

00:37:25 Speaker_00
I would connect it to verse 8, that that manifestation is going to come through the gifts of the Holy Ghost. And in particular, the gifts of the Spirit that he's now going to list in verses 9 through 16.

00:37:38 Speaker_00
If I'm not being clear enough, or if Moroni's not being clear enough, let me just try to say it in my own words. Sometimes we do a disservice when we say, get the Book of Mormon, pray about it, and then pay attention to how you feel.

00:37:55 Speaker_00
That is one thing we should do. However, that's not what Moroni is telling us to do here. Moroni is saying, get the Book of Mormon, ponder these stories, how merciful God's been, let that rest in your heart. Ask God if that's not true.

00:38:11 Speaker_00
And one of the ways you're going to know it's going to be true is He's going to manifest to you through the gifts of the Spirit, certain things in your life that, number one, in particular, in verse six, point you to Christ.

00:38:26 Speaker_00
Instead of asking, how do I feel? Ask, did this point me to Christ? Did this help me to understand the Savior, His teachings, His ministry, His mercy, His grace better? Did it make me love God?

00:38:40 Speaker_00
And then the second thing we should start to ask is, and did I start to have certain gifts of the Spirit manifest in my life as I read this book? Now, we can go into those gifts, but there are things like, man, have I been filled with knowledge?

00:38:57 Speaker_00
Have I been filled with wisdom? Have I started to see miracles in my life? Have I started to speak with the tongue of angels? I can speak and understand truth. Have I seen healing come to my soul or my mind or my body through these words?

00:39:14 Speaker_00
That is a broader way of getting a witness of the truthfulness of these things than, I prayed about it and I got a really powerful spiritual experience. Now, I want to be very clear here. I'm not undercutting that.

00:39:29 Speaker_00
There have been too many countless saints and friends of the church and people who have read these potent words

00:39:36 Speaker_00
who have kneeled down and, like Parley P. Pratt, overnight, they have been so filled with spiritual experiences that they know the book's true.

00:39:47 Speaker_00
There seems to be a broader thing that he's teaching here, that he's saying, as you're pondering and reading these things, pay attention to the fruits that are produced in your life, not just a feeling. We can't reduce the Holy Ghost to end a feeling.

00:40:06 Speaker_00
I often give what I like to call the tripod of truth, which the Holy Ghost will speak to our mind and our heart, as section 8, verse 2 and 3 says, but it also produces certain fruit in our life. mind, heart, and fruit.

00:40:21 Speaker_00
By fruit, I mean things that are good, more Christ-like, and more kind, and more merciful, and charitable, and loving. We have more divine experiences in our life, more revelations, and miracles, and gifts.

00:40:37 Speaker_00
And he seems to be saying, when you see these things manifest in your life, you're going to know that what I've taught you in this book about the mercy of God is true.

00:40:47 Speaker_02
I love that it could start with, in verse six, did it point me to Christ? Thank you for showing me that. That's so good. I remember reading recently about mission president seminars in the church news and how the First Presidency was teaching.

00:41:03 Speaker_02
The point of missionary work is not to add more members to the church. The point is to bring people to Christ. And then we hope down the road to join the church, but the point is to bring them to Christ. I really like that.

00:41:16 Speaker_00
Yeah, that's something where we've done a little bit of a disservice, I feel like, to the current generation where we say the Holy Ghost will speak through your thoughts and your feelings.

00:41:27 Speaker_00
Then they get millions of thoughts and millions of feelings, and they don't know how to discern which is theirs and which is from God.

00:41:36 Speaker_00
A litmus test is instead of only asking, what am I thinking and feeling, ask this central question, how is this leading me to learn about and rely upon and love and follow Jesus Christ and become more like Him?

00:41:53 Speaker_00
If what I'm doing, if what I'm learning, if what I'm thinking, if I lay the premise of, is it pointing me to Christ to learn of Him and become more like Him?

00:42:02 Speaker_00
then that's when you know the Holy Ghost is working in your life, rather than only asking, what am I thinking and feeling? Moroni seems to be pointing us right from the get-go. Did you come unto Christ through this book or through this Spirit?

00:42:17 Speaker_00
And if the answer is yes, then that's a manifestation that it's true, because Jesus is the truth. I am the way, the truth, the life.

00:42:27 Speaker_01
Wouldn't you say that, yes, the Holy Ghost can manifest through thoughts and feelings, but also experiences?

00:42:36 Speaker_00
Yes.

00:42:37 Speaker_01
You'll see more miracles. You'll feel more healing.

00:42:42 Speaker_00
The first time I really sought for my own witness of the Book of Mormon, I remember I was expecting to read through the whole book and come to Moroni 10 and kneel down and pray and have my heart be lit on fire.

00:42:56 Speaker_00
I had what seemed to be an anticlimactic experience. When I came to Moroni 7 about how do you judge if things are good or not, the Spirit whispered to me, as you've been reading this book for months, your mind has been enlightened.

00:43:13 Speaker_00
You have felt repeatedly the influence of the Spirit. You're more full of love. You're more patient. You're more kind. You're more willing to serve. You feel stronger. You have more hope. You don't need to even kneel down and ask me if this is true.

00:43:29 Speaker_00
You already know. You just had an experience as you pondered all these things in your heart over the last few months.

00:43:37 Speaker_00
I didn't even need to kneel down when I got to Moroni 10 because I had had an experience where these fruits of the Spirit, these gifts of the Spirit had been made manifest in my life.

00:43:50 Speaker_01
I have learned for myself. I have seen for myself. I have experienced for myself. And I would add, John, a statement we've used before, a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an opinion.

00:44:08 Speaker_02
I'm thinking of Soraya. Soraya didn't say, now I know because I had a burning in the bosom, or now I know because I felt right. She said, now I know the Lord hath commanded my husband because her boys came over the hill with the plates of brass.

00:44:21 Speaker_02
And for her, it was an experience. Maybe she had other experiences too. I think that's another thing, Anthony, I'm glad you said, is that there are some people who have knelt down after reading it, but for a lot of people it might be different.

00:44:37 Speaker_02
I didn't learn by a feeling, I learned by an experience that I had, or I went on a mission and I learned in the process of that mission or something like that. The Lord has all sorts of different ways he can communicate with us.

00:44:51 Speaker_00
And this is why it's so important that acknowledging all of those who do have that immediate experience, but sometimes if we say to people, read this book or these chapters, And then pray about it. And then the next day we say, so?

00:45:08 Speaker_00
And if they're like, well, nothing yet. Well, let's not let that rattle our faith or don't let that rattle their faith either. If we're understanding that the fruits of the spirit, they take time to grow.

00:45:21 Speaker_00
Sometimes things take time to manifest in our life. which is why we have to keep exercising faith. What we need to do is instead of getting disheartened, encourage them to stay in these beautiful, powerful words of this Book of Mormon.

00:45:37 Speaker_00
And over process of time, it will swell in their hearts, it will enlighten their minds, it will become sweet and they'll taste and they'll have their own experience. where they can say, yeah, I do know that this is true.

00:45:54 Speaker_00
And that's why we have to connect. verse Moroni 3-5, with the list of spiritual gifts, appointing to Christ in verse 6, and the list of spiritual gifts, because we're looking for these fruits.

00:46:08 Speaker_00
I one time did a summary of the gifts of the Spirit in one of the books that I wrote, and I'm just going to read a quick summary so that people can see what kind of fruits we should be looking for. In verse 9, Moroni says to teach the word of wisdom.

00:46:27 Speaker_00
This is the spiritual gift to correctly apply knowledge and to understand the proper course of action to take. Because the Book of Mormon helped you know what course of action to take. That's wisdom.

00:46:40 Speaker_00
Or you might have the gift to teach the Word of Knowledge. Now, Moroni is adding teach, so some of it could be, I have the gift to teach these things.

00:46:48 Speaker_00
But the Word of Knowledge is, in my mind, the spiritual gift to study and learn and understand and retain truth. Has the Book of Mormon helped you to understand and retain more truth in your life? Or, verse 11, exceedingly great faith to be healed.

00:47:06 Speaker_00
We often think of physical healing, but I would add a definition this way. This is a spiritual gift to deeply trust in the Lord, even in the most trying of circumstances, resulting in spiritual, emotional, and physical healing.

00:47:22 Speaker_00
Has the Book of Mormon and its words helped you to learn to trust in the Lord and had His Spirit heal your soul in some way, or even a miraculous physical healing? Verse 11, the gift of healing.

00:47:38 Speaker_00
To me, that's the spiritual gift to be a conduit, to pass on the healing effects of the Holy Ghost to other people who are in spiritual, emotional, and physical pain.

00:47:47 Speaker_00
Has the Book of Mormon helped you ever know what to say or what to share or what to quote or teach that brought healing to somebody else physically, spiritually, or emotionally? Verse 12, the working of mighty miracles.

00:48:00 Speaker_00
I wrote, this is the spiritual gift to cause the heavens to listen to your voice and bring the seemingly impossible into effect.

00:48:09 Speaker_00
Has the words and teachings of the Book of Mormon ever helped bring miraculous things that you did not think were possible into your life or the life of others? Verse 13, the gift to prophesy of all things.

00:48:22 Speaker_00
The spiritual gift to see into the future, catching glimpses of what is yet to come to prepare you. Has the Book of Mormon or through the spirit of that book, has it helped you to catch a glimpse of what you need to do that's coming?

00:48:37 Speaker_00
in order to prepare, or to serve, or to live, or to be better. Verse 14, beholding of angels and ministering spirits, that's the spiritual gift to part the veil, to commune with the divine, and to discern what is and is not of God.

00:48:52 Speaker_00
Has the Book of Mormon helped you to do that, where you felt like the ministering of angels and the spirit and the part of the veil has gotten thin when you've been in these potent words? Verse 15, all kinds of tongues.

00:49:06 Speaker_00
Now we often think of this as speaking other languages, and I don't want to shortchange it.

00:49:11 Speaker_00
That's part of it, but broader, the spiritual gift to speak in a celestial language, to express heavenly concepts, or to clearly communicate gospel truths in a way that's understandable to those that do not speak and understand the way that you do.

00:49:29 Speaker_00
You can have the gift of tongues English to English or Spanish to Spanish. It doesn't have to be English to Spanish or Spanish to English.

00:49:37 Speaker_00
Has the Book of Mormon ever given you phrases and ways and words and concepts so that you could communicate in ways that are understandable? And then last, the interpretation of languages and all kinds of tongues in verse 16.

00:49:51 Speaker_00
I wrote down the spiritual gift to translate, understand, and correctly interpret what has been spoken by others as they spoke it under the influence of the Spirit. Have you ever heard these words and gone, oh man, I get it? Those are some.

00:50:07 Speaker_00
There's diverse ways, as the Scriptures say, that the Spirit can manifest these things. But those are the kind of things that we should be looking for as we've studied these words

00:50:18 Speaker_00
to know that God is working and pointing to us to truth in what Moroni, Mormon, Nephi, and others have written.

00:50:27 Speaker_01
Yeah, Anthony, that is wonderful. To tie what we call Moroni's promise to the gifts of the Spirit, that is a life-changing insight to me. Now you can point out all the different ways that the Holy Ghost will manifest.

00:50:47 Speaker_01
Instead of pinpointing a certain experience, kind of saying, this is what will happen. It's more of, okay, what happened to you?

00:50:55 Speaker_00
What happened? Yeah. How did you see it? As I was prepping to talk with you guys today, the Spirit led me to connect those two. As I was asking, why did Moroni go from his promise to these gifts of the Spirit?

00:51:07 Speaker_00
I started to see that connection almost like, don't pigeonhole me. And it's important in verse 17, all of these gifts come by the spirit of Christ and they come into every man severally, according as he will.

00:51:22 Speaker_02
Severally.

00:51:22 Speaker_00
And there's a lot of ways that we can unpack that. Meaning there's several gifts, there's several ways that this can be manifest to use that word. But it will be a manifestation if you're looking for it in some way.

00:51:35 Speaker_00
And the other thing that I would just as a total side tangent right here, notice how many times he says, by the Spirit, by the Spirit, by the Spirit. Verse 17, the Spirit of Christ.

00:51:48 Speaker_00
These are spiritual gifts, meaning they come by virtue of the Holy Ghost. If somebody out there reads Moroni 10 and goes, oh good, we're going to have a lesson on spiritual gifts, let's not confuse

00:52:00 Speaker_00
the gifts that come from the Holy Ghost with our talents that we develop over time and practice.

00:52:08 Speaker_00
Now, the Holy Ghost can enhance those, but if you want a litmus test, if something is a gift of the Spirit, ask yourself this question, if I lose the Spirit, do I lose the ability? If the answer is yes, then you know it's a gift of the Spirit.

00:52:24 Speaker_00
And the beauty of that is it means that any of these gifts can be given to anyone. You don't have to have a particular talent set with your fingers to have this gift. God can give these gifts to anybody, severally, as He will.

00:52:42 Speaker_01
One of my favorite references to the Holy Ghost is in Doctrine and Covenants 11, verses 12 and 13. Easy to remember.

00:52:51 Speaker_01
where the Lord says, put your trust in that spirit, which leadeth to do good, to do justly, which I think to have integrity, to walk humbly and to judge righteously. He bookends it with, this is my spirit.

00:53:05 Speaker_01
So here's the spirit, these few things, this is my spirit. For a youth, I might be able to maybe simplify this just a little bit and say, as you've read the Book of Mormon, have you wanted to do more good? Have you wanted to be more honest?

00:53:22 Speaker_01
Have you wanted to be more humble and teachable? That could be, Anthony, a manifestation of the spirit.

00:53:28 Speaker_00
I love that. That is such a great way to put it in a palatable language for somebody. Have you felt to be kinder, more loving, more just? Hank, as you were saying that, I had an experience when I was a teenager.

00:53:46 Speaker_00
where I used to have a bad temper, if you can believe that or not. One time I got so mad at my parents over something and I stormed down to my room in the basement and slammed the door.

00:53:58 Speaker_00
And as I was huffing and puffing, I actually grabbed some stuff and threw it and knocked some things over. And I reached to grab something in anger and I happened to pick up my scriptures. I had enough sense to not throw my scriptures.

00:54:16 Speaker_00
And so instead I just sat down with him on my bed at the edge of my bed in a huff and I opened him up and I started reading the Book of Mormon. Now it was totally unintentional, but as I read the Book of Mormon, I suddenly got lost in its words.

00:54:38 Speaker_00
I still to this day remember the spirit that came over me. And the spirit that came over me was exactly what you just said. It replaced my angry, wrathful, vengeful spirit, violent spirit that was in me with the spirit to do good. Suddenly I felt calm.

00:54:59 Speaker_00
I felt repentant. I felt apologetic. I felt a need to be teachable. I remember I went up and apologized, and that was a fruit of the Book of Mormon.

00:55:12 Speaker_00
Now, that didn't give me my testimony of the book, but that's an example of that's the spirit that leads to do good, of a manifestation of it.

00:55:21 Speaker_01
I can hear a missionary or a youth when someone says, well, I know Joseph Smith is a sinner, and they say something similar to the blind man. Well, whether he's a sinner or not, I know not. Here's what I know.

00:55:35 Speaker_01
I was reading the Book of Mormon, and here's what happened. I love it. Anthony, I'd like to go backwards to verse four, the famous verse four, and I'd like to ask you what you think it means when Moroni adds, Ask if these things are not true.

00:55:54 Speaker_01
And if you will ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ. That's sometimes missing from our Moroni's challenge. Read it, pray about it, the Holy Ghost will tell you. Well, there's a little bit more.

00:56:08 Speaker_01
Pray about it with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ. Any thoughts?

00:56:15 Speaker_00
It's a little bit like sometimes when we have discussions with students

00:56:20 Speaker_00
You can tell the ones that are sincerely wanting to understand, and sometimes, it's more rare, luckily, but the ones who are just trying to dig in their heels or prove a point, or that they're not to be moved, they've made up their mind.

00:56:38 Speaker_00
There's not a real intent to obey the truth, there's an intent to prove their point. I do think there's something here where the Lord has to say, hey, when you're

00:56:50 Speaker_00
exploring the tender mercies of God, you've got to lay every weapon of war down and be willing to accept the truth, even if it's contrary to what you had supposed.

00:57:04 Speaker_00
Otherwise, I've had those experiences before where I can tell people just want to fight or they just want to prove a point or defend. But if I can sense that somebody doesn't have an intent to understand, then I don't even have the conversation.

00:57:20 Speaker_00
And on a broader level, I could almost see the Lord going, you're not in the right spirit of faith or willingness to obey what I'm going to tell you. So I'll have that conversation later when you're ready.

00:57:33 Speaker_02
I'm reminded of Alma 32. Have you given place? Are you creating a space? Could this possibly be true? I would love to know this.

00:57:44 Speaker_02
Some people, I think, have already made up their minds that I don't want to believe this, and so I'll say that I prayed about it. That doesn't sound like a sincere heart with real intent.

00:57:54 Speaker_00
Yeah, until you're getting at the point of, I will give away all my sins to know the... The King Lamoni's father thing, yeah. Then the Lord starts to say, okay, let me manifest to you then, when you're at that point.

00:58:07 Speaker_02
Yeah, getting your heart right. We've got the gratitude, how merciful God has been. And then getting to this point where I sincerely want to know and I really intend to change if I need to. And here's all the ways the Lord could manifest that to you.

00:58:24 Speaker_02
I'd love that.

00:58:25 Speaker_01
of my earliest memories of the profound experience with the Holy Ghost. I was in high school, I think ninth or tenth grade. I was doing what my seminary teacher had taught me to do, which is read the Book of Mormon and ask about it.

00:58:41 Speaker_01
I would read, and then I would kneel down and ask about it. I was almost giving God his cue, like, I'm kneeling down, God, tell me if this is true, hit it. I am ready. Music, angels, here we go. I'm ready. And nothing would ever happen.

00:59:00 Speaker_01
I remember once falling asleep and waking up, still kneeling down. And I think, honestly, I gave up after a while thinking, well, I don't know what that's about. Well, then my dad had this odd thing that he would do when I called him for a ride.

00:59:15 Speaker_01
This is back when the phone was attached to the house. When I'd say, Dad, can you come pick me up? He'd say, yep, on my way. Start walking.

00:59:21 Speaker_01
I don't know why he'd say that because I wouldn't cover very much ground, but maybe he just wanted to give me time to walk. I don't know. This one time, it was late at night. I said, Dad, can you come pick me up? So I started walking. I'm all alone.

00:59:35 Speaker_01
I wasn't thinking about God give me an answer. I was more thinking about life. I was looking up at the stars, thinking about life, and wondering about what's my place. Do I have a place? Then I received what I was looking for. It was overwhelming.

00:59:57 Speaker_01
I still remember it. I think the Lord is saying, now it's a sincere heart. Now it's real intent. Don't force me into a moment. I don't know exactly how to explain that, John, but that was a moment for me of sincere heart, real intent.

01:00:14 Speaker_01
And wow, it was real and it was powerful. I've had many experiences like that since then, but that moment was overwhelming to me. Oh, and I'll tell you this. I got home, went to my bedside and said, okay, let's do that again. And nothing. Nothing.

01:00:37 Speaker_02
Well, he'll answer you in his own time. And sometimes it's not until the fourth watch to use another metaphor right here when you don't expect it. But you say it again, Hank, you were thinking about life.

01:00:51 Speaker_01
Yeah, my life, my place in it. That's awesome. I think the Book of Mormon caused me to think about those things more. It had to be sincere.

01:01:01 Speaker_01
Maybe it was sincere before, but it was also just curious, like a curious heart, like, hey, is this going to work? Am I going to get one of those experiences that everybody talks about?

01:01:14 Speaker_01
And I think the Lord's like, look, I'm not here to satisfy your curiosity. And I like what both of you said there too. I intend to do everything that comes with the answer I'm seeking.

01:01:28 Speaker_02
That's an act in faith type of thing.

01:01:30 Speaker_01
Yeah, wouldn't you both say if I don't intend to do what comes with this answer, wouldn't you say it's merciful for the Lord to not give me? To not tell you. Yeah. Because you'd be accountable. Right.

01:01:42 Speaker_01
He's like, oh, you don't intend to do anything or you don't intend to do what would come with this. So I don't think it's wise to give you this answer right now. That maybe that's one thing we need to teach.

01:01:54 Speaker_01
is you need to be ready to do everything that comes with that answer. Think about it. Think, am I ready to do everything that comes with?

01:02:03 Speaker_00
That willingness, that readiness to respond to the revelation that comes through the gift of the Spirit.

01:02:11 Speaker_00
I love that Moroni takes a cue here from other great writers like Paul, and as the Lord's going to reveal to Joseph in section 46, and he's obviously going to take this from his father,

01:02:24 Speaker_00
In Moroni 7, he quotes the sermon by his father at the synagogue about faith, hope, and charity. And the greatest gifts, as the Apostle Paul says, our faith, hope, and charity.

01:02:36 Speaker_00
I could have all of these experiences or these gifts, these miraculous divine interventions in my life. But ultimately, if they don't lead me to have faith and hope and charity, then I am nothing.

01:02:51 Speaker_00
He says in verse 19, I would exhort you, my beloved brother, and that you remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

01:03:02 Speaker_00
and that all these gifts of which I have spoken which are spiritual never will be done away even as long as the world shall stand only according to the unbelief of the children of men.

01:03:14 Speaker_00
So wherefore there must be faith and if there be faith there must be hope. And if there must be hope, there must also be charity. And except ye have charity, ye can in no wise be saved in the kingdom of God.

01:03:31 Speaker_00
Neither can you be saved in the kingdom of God if you have not faith. Neither can ye if you have no hope. I just want to touch on those a little bit because those are the three great gifts. Doctrine and Covenants section four.

01:03:46 Speaker_00
says that those are what qualify us to do the work of the Lord, faith, hope, charity, and love, with an eye single to the glory of God qualify us for the work.

01:03:54 Speaker_00
In Ether it says, faith, hope, and charity bringeth unto me the fountain of all righteousness. Alma says, see that you have faith, hope, and charity, and you will always abound in good works. These are the gifts.

01:04:09 Speaker_00
Moroni told us, quoting his father Mormon, to pray with all of the energy of soul that were filled with these three gifts.

01:04:19 Speaker_00
Sometimes in being somebody who loves art, and usually in Christian art, faith, hope, and charity, they're always portrayed as female. they're usually called the three sisters.

01:04:33 Speaker_00
I love that because it's trying to teach us something about these three great gifts. My three oldest children are girls.

01:04:41 Speaker_00
They're all adults now, but when I teach about this, I'll put up a picture of my three girls and I'll say, these are my three oldest daughters and guess what their names are?

01:04:51 Speaker_00
And inevitably I just set the students up and they'll go, Faith, Hope, and Charity. And I'll go, no, Lauren, Reagan, and Jane. But if you want to name your girls, faith, hope, and charity, you go right ahead.

01:05:04 Speaker_00
I shown that because I'm like, do you see how my three daughters are each unique, but you can tell they're related. In the same way, the gifts of faith, hope, and charity are related. If you have faith, it will produce hope.

01:05:23 Speaker_00
If you have hope, then you'll experience charity. They're different gifts, but they're related. I like to define faith as trust-based action in Christ. Hope is a personal assurance that God will fulfill his promises to us through Christ.

01:05:48 Speaker_00
Charity is having a loving relationship with God through the grace of Christ. They're all centered in Christ. but one of them is trust, one of them leads to hope in the promises, and one of them leads to love.

01:06:05 Speaker_00
I give the analogy of jumping off the edge of the pool to your parent.

01:06:09 Speaker_00
When you place a little kid on the edge of the pool and you say, jump to me, and you create that little gap so they're a little bit nervous and they don't want to drown and be dropped, and you encourage and encourage and encourage, but you leave a little bit of that discomfort

01:06:26 Speaker_00
Faith is to have such confidence and trust that you will leap. You will take that step into the unknown because you trust the person and you trust Christ in this analogy. He's the father in the water.

01:06:40 Speaker_00
And then hope is when you are caught, you know that he is good for his promises. You know, he will support and deliver what he's promised. That's the gift of hope. Charity is feeling that loving embrace, that hug, that I love you, you're my child.

01:07:00 Speaker_00
If you have those three, you will do the work of the Lord, you will always abound in good works, and it will lead you to the fountain of all righteousness. Now, that's why he says, if you don't, in verse 22, you're going to be in despair.

01:07:17 Speaker_00
If you're not having faith, hope, and charity, it's only because of wickedness. You're not willing to trust God. You're not willing to act. You're not willing to take those steps because otherwise you would know of his promises and of his love.

01:07:34 Speaker_01
Don't the scriptures say that charity is the greatest of all? So I think your three daughters are going to ask you after this, which one am I? Anthony, I remember you telling me once, it was years ago,

01:07:47 Speaker_01
You said the difference between faith and hope to you was Christ can save everyone. That's faith. Hope, do you remember?

01:07:58 Speaker_00
Yes, Christ will save me. Faith says God answers prayers. Hope says God answers my prayers. It's personal. This is the tree of life. I step onto the path in trust. I grab onto the rod of these promises and I eat of that fruit, that love of God.

01:08:21 Speaker_00
We don't often say it that way, but Lehi ate charity and it filled his soul with love.

01:08:31 Speaker_00
The reason why we sometimes confuse charity with loving other people and doing charitable actions is because the moment Lehi ate the love of God, what did he want to do? he inherently wanted to share it.

01:08:44 Speaker_00
Moroni 745 is giving us the effects of charity that when you taste the love of God then you will suffer long and be kind and envy not and be not puffed up and you won't be selfish and you won't be easily provoked that's not saying try with a lot of mental energy to do those things

01:09:09 Speaker_00
He seems to be saying, taste of the love of God, taste of the fruit of the tree of life, and if you get that in your soul, back to fruits of the Spirit, the greatest fruit will be charity and you'll find yourself full of patience and long-suffering and gentleness and meekness and love unfeigned.

01:09:29 Speaker_01
Both of you remember the challenge to become one of the most quoted talks from President Oaks back in 2000. He quotes Moroni here.

01:09:39 Speaker_01
The reason charity never fails and the reason charity is greater than even the most significant acts of goodness is that charity, the pure love of Christ, is not an act, but a condition or state of being. Charity is something one becomes.

01:09:58 Speaker_00
Yes. Amen. That's spot on.

01:10:03 Speaker_01
Coming up in part two of this episode,

01:10:06 Speaker_00
If I grabbed a group of a hundred of them and said, how many of you guys are confident that you're going to go to heaven with God? They'll give an amen and a hallelujah.

01:10:17 Speaker_01
Yeah.

01:10:18 Speaker_00
They have such confidence in their savior. Now on the flip side, if I grab a hundred Latter-day Saints and say, how many of you guys are confident using our language that you're going to go to the celestial kingdom?