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Episode: Mama Shu: Turning Loss Into Love

Author: CNN
Duration: 00:28:48

Episode Shownotes

Shamayim Harris, known in Detroit as Mama Shu, knows all too well the pain of loss. In 2007 her 2-year-old son Jakobi Ra was killed in a hit and run accident, and in 2021 her other son Chinyelu was murdered. Mama Shu talks with Anderson about how she worked hard

to, in her words, “turn my grief into glory and my loss into love.” Focusing on one block in her neighborhood, she began cleaning up blighted properties and has created the non-profit Avalon Village, which aims to be a safe and welcoming space for kids in her community. “This is grief,” she tells Anderson, “it just looks beautiful.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary

In this episode of 'All There Is with Anderson Cooper,' Mama Shu, also known as Shamayim Harris, shares her heartbreaking journey of transforming grief into community service following the tragic loss of her two sons. After Jakobi's death in a hit-and-run accident in 2007 and Chinyelu's murder in 2021, she created Avalon Village in Detroit, a nonprofit aimed at revitalizing her neighborhood into a safe haven for children. Through memorials, celebrations, and spiritual practices, Mama Shu demonstrates how grief can be redirected into love and positive action, creating a profound legacy from her loss.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Mama Shu: Turning Loss Into Love) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:02 Speaker_01
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00:00:31 Speaker_03
It's so strange when and how grief hits you. I worked all weekend in Los Angeles and flew back to New York late Sunday so I could be home when my kids woke up Monday morning. I was in the car from the airport. It was 2 a.m.

00:00:45 Speaker_03
but suddenly I was on the balcony of my mom's apartment replaying the last seconds of my brother's life. It's like I was trapped, suspended in this obliterating sadness. It swallowed me, the violence of it, the horror of it.

00:01:02 Speaker_03
I felt like I might pass out, but I just sat there with tears dripping from my eyes, unable to move. I'm not sure how long exactly I did this, in the dark, in the backseat of the car. Finally, I forced myself to breathe deeply. He's gone, I thought.

00:01:21 Speaker_03
All of them are gone. I'm alone. This is all there is. I think I'm gonna stop this podcast in a week or two. I think I need to take a break from it for a bit.

00:01:38 Speaker_03
I've already done an interview for next week's episode, and the following week I want to finish the season with your voices, with your calls. I ended last season with your messages, and I think that's how this season should end as well.

00:01:50 Speaker_03
We've set up a new phone line for you to call if you'd like to leave a message in our voice mailbox. Let me know if there's something that you've learned in your grief that might help others.

00:02:00 Speaker_03
I can't promise we'll use your message, but I do promise I'll listen to all of the messages, though it may take me some time. Feel free to leave your name and phone number, but you don't have to. The number to call is 917-727-6818. That's 917-727-6818.

00:02:16 Speaker_03
And I'll say that again at the end of the podcast. We'll be right back with my guest today, a remarkable woman I really want you to hear from. Her name is Shamaim Mamashu Harris.

00:02:31 Speaker_04
Support for this podcast comes from USA for UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency. People facing war and violence are now facing winter far from home in temporary shelters and with little to keep them warm.

00:02:45 Speaker_04
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UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency, works around the clock to support the most vulnerable throughout the year. providing blankets, cash to buy warm clothes, fuel for heaters, and shelter.

00:03:13 Speaker_04
It's during the winter months that your support makes all the difference. Help protect refugees and people forced to flee as they face winter far from home. Your gift is matched for a limited time. Give now at unrefugees.org slash winter.

00:03:30 Speaker_02
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00:04:03 Speaker_03
Welcome back. My guest today is Shamaim Harris. Everyone calls her Mama Shu. She spent 27 years working as an administrator in schools in Michigan. She's a community activist, a minister, and a mom.

00:04:17 Speaker_03
In 2007, her two-year-old son, Jacoby, was killed when he was hit by a car while crossing the street with his 10-year-old brother, Chinielu.

00:04:26 Speaker_03
In her grief, Mama Xu decided to try and transform what was a rundown block in Highland Park, an enclave of Detroit, into a vibrant community. She named it Avalon Village. In 2021, her other son, Xinyelu, was murdered. He was 23 years old.

00:04:43 Speaker_03
I sat down with Mama Xu last week. Thank you so much for doing this. How did you get the name Mama Shu?

00:04:49 Speaker_00
So in my community, we're dressed as Mama or Baba, which means father. And it's basically an African, it's like a handle, just like Mr. or Ms. So it's also like a form of respect. The Shu is, S-H-U is the Egyptian god of the air.

00:05:04 Speaker_00
So my name is Shamaim Mama Shu Harris.

00:05:08 Speaker_03
Your son, Jacoby, was killed when he was just two years old. What was he like?

00:05:14 Speaker_00
He was two years, one month, and six days old, to be exact. And he was very, very smart. I believe he was just a prodigy. He was a DJ. He would have the microphone, rapping and everything, and he would work that turntable. That's amazing. Oh, yes, it was.

00:05:28 Speaker_00
The buttons and everything. He was just a bold little something while he was here. Just a special little being he was and is.

00:05:36 Speaker_03
What happened on that day?

00:05:38 Speaker_00
Chinyelu and Jacoby were crossing the street. They were holding hands and they stepped right off of the curb. And then there was a car that came barreling down the street pretty fast and hit Jacoby. And then he kind of landed over by the streetlight.

00:05:57 Speaker_00
And then my daughter, Kafi, she was 12. She ran outside and she picked Jacoby up. And she was saying, Jacoby, Jacoby, he ended up being brain damaged, didn't get that much oxygen to his brain.

00:06:11 Speaker_00
He was connected to the tubes and everything, but basically they just had him holding on and we knew what the inevitable was going to be.

00:06:18 Speaker_00
And then what we decided to do was wait until my other daughter, Aziza, got back to Detroit so that she can give him a hug and everything. And so Khafi, she still had her clothes was still like had blood on them and everything, but

00:06:32 Speaker_00
She sat there in the chair, waited until Aziza got there and it was like overnight.

00:06:37 Speaker_03
She was 12 years old?

00:06:38 Speaker_00
She was 12 years old and she sat there and they were so, so close. They were so close. She stayed there. She stayed right there like a big sister and waited on the other big sister to come so she can basically say goodbye.

00:06:51 Speaker_03
What was that night like for you?

00:06:53 Speaker_00
That night was one of the roughest nights. I really didn't think I was gonna last overnight. Literally, I thought I just wouldn't be able to make it. You know, I thought that maybe my heart would stop.

00:07:03 Speaker_00
I don't know, I couldn't function no more, wouldn't be able to eat. I didn't know what was gonna happen.

00:07:08 Speaker_00
Because you know, Anderson, sometimes me and my friends, we would hear about things that would happen to other families and their children actually dying.

00:07:16 Speaker_00
And we would just have stories like, oh my God, I would not be able to take it if my kid would die. Oh my God, I would just wanna, crawl into the grave with them. Just those are the kind of things that we were saying before.

00:07:25 Speaker_00
And so it actually happened to me. And it was even, the pain was worse later on. It didn't get better. Like the first year is just horrible. Just a realization that my kid got killed. Like I actually lost my two-year-old son.

00:07:41 Speaker_00
He was actually hit by a car holding my other son's hand. And yeah, It just got worse. And what I mean by getting worse, it seems like that first year is like almost the first of everything.

00:07:53 Speaker_00
You know, the first birthday, the first holidays, these first things that you just notice that somebody missing.

00:08:01 Speaker_03
I heard you say something and I found it really moving. You said, I chose to transform my pain into power, my grief into glory, my loss into love. When I heard that, I was like,

00:08:14 Speaker_00
Yeah. Cause one thing it does end up being a choice, you know, sometimes we can be in, in grief so long, but at some point we do have to keep it moving. Cause those loved ones have kept it moving. They moving.

00:08:29 Speaker_03
How do you do that?

00:08:31 Speaker_00
Man, I'm telling you every single thing that I do right now is grief. This is grief. It just looks beautiful. And that's the way that I look at it.

00:08:42 Speaker_03
So this is grieving. You are still grieving.

00:08:44 Speaker_00
Oh, yes. Every single moment. Every single moment. Every single moment. There is not a moment that I don't think about every detail of what happened.

00:08:53 Speaker_03
I've heard you say in the past, Jacoby gives me courage. He just keeps me going. A lot of the things we do around children are because of him. Can you talk about that after Jacoby's death? What then led you to try to change your community?

00:09:08 Speaker_00
When I was a little girl, my neighborhood was beautiful. I would talk to the elders and go to the store and my school was just right around the corner and everything that you needed and wanted was right there in the neighborhood.

00:09:21 Speaker_00
And I wanted to recreate that.

00:09:23 Speaker_03
Highland Park at one time was one of the best neighborhoods in Michigan.

00:09:28 Speaker_00
It was. It was very beautiful. The city of trees just was so beautiful. And it took a hit with Chrysler moving out and our schools started getting closed down.

00:09:39 Speaker_00
And I wanted it to rise like the Phoenix and be beautiful again, a place that is really, really highly desired to live in. And I just started on this block and I remember just envisioning it. I didn't want to leave the hood.

00:09:52 Speaker_00
A lot of people leave, they want to go to maybe somewhere safer or somewhere that has a better school system and you know, just all of these things that they feel that are better.

00:10:01 Speaker_00
And I'm like, you know what, I'm staying right on this block and I'm just going to compact everything that I want on this block and the people want on this block.

00:10:09 Speaker_03
You've acquired 45 lots of land, is that right?

00:10:12 Speaker_00
Yep, six structures and the rest is land. It took about eight years to actually clean it up. And so I'm building a village. We have a park called Jacoby Ra Park. It has this picture. His headstone is actually there. I didn't put it in the cemetery.

00:10:25 Speaker_00
I had them deliver it here. It's a beautiful space. It's real sunshiny, just like him.

00:10:30 Speaker_03
There have been weddings there. There have been celebrations in that park.

00:10:34 Speaker_00
Yes, yes. I also do memorials and funerals in the park. The first funeral I had here actually was my bonus son. I had a stepson. His name was Peely. He got killed when he was 34 years old. He was murdered May the 13th, 2015. Oh my gosh.

00:10:50 Speaker_00
And I did his funeral here in the park. But the homework house was the very first structure that I wanted to finish. And it took about five years and some change to build, actually.

00:11:01 Speaker_03
A homework house is a place kids can go after school, do their homework. I know there's a music studio there.

00:11:08 Speaker_00
Yep. They have all kinds of sessions, art class. We also have a washing machine and dryer because working in the school system, I saw a lot of children coming in, their clothes were dirty.

00:11:19 Speaker_00
I have underwear and socks and all of those things, uniform shirts. Everything is all nice and crispy. We have school supplies and they get a meal and everything. So we had the STEM lab. I was able to get a grant.

00:11:31 Speaker_00
for our science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. We built one out of a shippy container.

00:11:37 Speaker_00
But there's a lot of children, unfortunately, who have lost their siblings, their brothers and their sisters and uncles through mostly murder, mostly crimes like that. And so we try to have support for them.

00:11:51 Speaker_00
We have support groups here at the Homework House.

00:11:54 Speaker_03
I read that the one streetlight on the street was repossessed. Is that even allowed?

00:12:00 Speaker_00
So Anderson, they took all of the streetlights in Highland Park, all of the residential areas. The streetlights got repossessed back in 2011. So they actually came and picked up the poles and actually took them. It was about maybe 1,200.

00:12:14 Speaker_00
And they took them out of all of the side streets. So right now, Avalon Village and another area, we did a fundraiser. We're the only very first relit block since the lights were repossessed.

00:12:25 Speaker_03
So you're the only one who has light?

00:12:27 Speaker_00
We have six solar streetlights, five of them have Wi-Fi capabilities, so the kids could pull up, do their homework. People can sit in a park and chill and sit in their cars if they need to get on the internet.

00:12:39 Speaker_03
How much has all this cost so far?

00:12:42 Speaker_00
Oh my goodness. Oh Lordy Lord. I would probably say maybe close to a million and a half. And this is over time. We raised $250,000 in our very first Kickstarter that we did.

00:12:54 Speaker_00
So that was like the first big chunk of money that I was able to initiate and start the village. So I just try to find funding through grants and different things like that to build what it is that we need.

00:13:06 Speaker_00
I sold fish sandwiches and stuff too, Anderson. Yep, sure did. We had bake sales, fish sandwiches to buy the land. You know, some of the land was 300 bucks for the lots and everything.

00:13:18 Speaker_00
So my goal is to have a nice, beautiful arch that says, welcome to Avalon Village.

00:13:23 Speaker_00
Like when you pull up in those beautiful gated communities, how it looks with all the beautiful shops and to have coffee and tea and sit and read a book in the park and the concerts and different things like that. So we're doing all of that.

00:13:35 Speaker_00
We're doing all of that.

00:13:39 Speaker_03
Mama Shu's only surviving son, Chinyelu, who was 10 years old when that speeding car ripped his little brother Jacobi's hand from his, worked security in Avalon Village. On January 26, 2021, he was shot to death.

00:13:55 Speaker_00
Every detail of what happened to my son Chinyelu, everything is just still, everything is so vivid. It's just three years. 1-26-21 is when he became an ancestor.

00:14:07 Speaker_03
What happened to him?

00:14:09 Speaker_00
Chinyelu, his name is Chinyelu Gabb Cajero, so he got murdered. Somebody shot him five times. He was right across the street. He was sitting in his truck, and he was doing security. I was inside of the house, and I was on Zoom, and I'll never forget it.

00:14:24 Speaker_00
I heard some gunshots, and I flung open the front door. I started screaming Chinyelu's name. I was hollering. I said, Chin, Chin, Chin. I must have called him about eight, nine, 10 times. And actually I saw who killed my son and I saw them run.

00:14:47 Speaker_00
Chinyelu, he died and our neighbors right across the alley died in their doorway. He knocked on their door, bammed on their door. He laid out and he died right there. I remember straddling Chinyelu and he was bleeding and he was gone at that point.

00:15:07 Speaker_00
And I remember just looking at him and I just whispered in him, I just remember saying, Chin, this is it. This is the day. This is the day you are really gone.

00:15:20 Speaker_00
And I just whispered some things in his ear and I just got up off of him when the ambulance came and everything. And I saw them working on him and everything, but I already knew he was gone, you know, but they had to do that.

00:15:32 Speaker_00
I already knew what it was. Yeah. That right there is devastating. It still is. That is still just very, very fresh.

00:15:42 Speaker_03
And you said to him, this is the day.

00:15:45 Speaker_00
Yeah. Yeah. Cause so, What I understand about humans is that I just feel that everybody comes here with their own separate journey. And the loved ones and the family, we never know when they decide, hey, The gig is up for me.

00:16:03 Speaker_00
I've done what I've done here on the planet. This is it. My son, Jacoby, his was up in two years, one month, and six days old. And so I understood that with Chin, too. I'm like, wow, 23?

00:16:14 Speaker_00
Like, this is the detaching moment from him and us and just being here. So that's just, that's the way that I felt about it. And now, Jacoby and Chinelu, because they come from me and I'm their mother, They still live inside of me.

00:16:32 Speaker_00
They're still part of me. And so a lot of the things that I manifest, I manifest in their memory because they're still living inside of me. I can't detach from that part. But physically, it's happened.

00:16:46 Speaker_00
So I still feel that I raised my children in the heavens. So a lot of the beautiful things that we've done, the park in my son's name, I built shrines for my sons.

00:16:56 Speaker_00
We have a basketball court that we call My Three Sons, and it has their faces on the basketball court. I had a beautiful mural, so those are like my three boys, but Chinyelu's shrine is very beautiful. We got some of his friends.

00:17:11 Speaker_00
They helped to build it, and it's a space where they hang out. So we have these beautiful, lovely spaces here for the boys and in their memory.

00:17:20 Speaker_03
I've heard you say that he became an ancestor.

00:17:23 Speaker_00
Mm-hmm.

00:17:23 Speaker_03
And I'm wondering what that means to you.

00:17:25 Speaker_00
So basically, the ancestors, for me, I believe they're not here physically, but all of their memories, a lot of their ways, a lot of things that they do, we can still honor them, and I still honor them.

00:17:37 Speaker_00
Whenever we have ceremonies or we have parties or we have something, we want everybody to be there, all the family members. I do something called libations.

00:17:46 Speaker_00
I have my cup and I pour water and we just call out all of the folks who have become ancestors, the folks who have died in our families. And we just bring up them and we bring up their energies and we want them present.

00:17:58 Speaker_00
And then when they get here, we say they are here. And then we go ahead and party. Almost Anderson like when you see guys and they may pour some wine and say this is for the homies. That's what we do.

00:18:11 Speaker_00
That's for the homies and for the family members that reside in the spiritual world.

00:18:16 Speaker_03
Jacoby died in 2007?

00:18:18 Speaker_00
Yes.

00:18:19 Speaker_03
On his birthday, do you still have a big party? I had heard that you had a big reggae concert.

00:18:26 Speaker_00
Oh yeah, we do. Yes. We party up a storm, okay? Anderson, we have the biggest gig. I'm telling you, it's called Reggae in the Hood.

00:18:38 Speaker_00
Yes, I get so excited about it because it's just... So anyway, so Jacoby was born on Marcus Garvey's birthday, August the 17th. And so we have this big old reggae concert festival, and we have about four reggae bands. And guess what?

00:18:52 Speaker_00
We party on Chin's birthday too, and also when he became an ancestor. For my boys, they have two celebrations. They have one for their birthdates, and they have one when they become an ancestor.

00:19:04 Speaker_00
So on September the 23rd, we have our fall Equinox bonfire, and we also celebrate Jacoby crossing over into the spiritual world. I'm a minister since 2001. And there's a passage in the Bible and it talks about enduring sadness, Psalms 35.

00:19:23 Speaker_00
It says, weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning. And for me, the joy, for me, Anderson comes in the morning, but not in the morning like you wake up. It comes in the M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G, the actual morning.

00:19:42 Speaker_00
And that's what I've been able to find with my boys and with my loved ones. I've been able to find that, that peace right there so that I can keep going and keep it moving here on earth. And so the things that I create, It's mourning.

00:19:56 Speaker_00
That's why I said, it's just, this is grief, but it's, it's like the beautiful side of grief. And there is a beautiful side of it.

00:20:04 Speaker_03
I think to be able to find joy in it would be an extraordinary thing.

00:20:09 Speaker_00
So yeah, for me to create Jacoby Rob Park brought me healing, brought me joy, brought me happiness.

00:20:15 Speaker_00
And that's what I show and I talk to a lot of mothers who have lost their sons and I show them how they can actually honor their children and create shrines and do beautiful artworks and what did your son like and just to show them how to put things together.

00:20:28 Speaker_00
So I try to find ways to help them, but I do tell them that it gets more bearable as you go on. I do say that, but I am very truthful about it and saying that this is just some raw shit you're going to feel for a while, you know, for a while.

00:20:46 Speaker_00
I think that one of my, uh, one of the greatest things here is just to enjoy, uh, things right now, how they are right now, how beautiful they are right now, and not to, uh, attach yourself so tightly.

00:21:04 Speaker_03
Not to attach yourself so tightly to what?

00:21:07 Speaker_00
I had to understand and detach from the physicalness of them to learn that piece and know that I can still deal with those boys on a higher level and that's what I do right now.

00:21:17 Speaker_00
To be able to still be their mother, still understand and be able to commune with their spirits, I know that they're gone. I know that they're dead. I know that they're not here. I know that they're ancestors.

00:21:29 Speaker_00
But I also know that they're still here because they're part of me. And I'm still able to work with those boys. And I do. And I feel them. I know when they're around. I know when they have their hand in certain things that happen. I just feel it.

00:21:43 Speaker_03
And you still have a relationship with them?

00:21:46 Speaker_00
Yes. I have a full relationship with them. Full relationship.

00:21:52 Speaker_03
Do you talk to them?

00:21:53 Speaker_00
I talk to them of being a parent, because I feel in my head that I'm still a parent. I'm still a parent, but I'm raising these boys in the heavens, so I'm still connected. That's how I feel.

00:22:05 Speaker_00
And I talk to them, hey, I'm doing this, and it's just certain things that happen that go through, and I'm like, oh, okay, that wasn't nothing but Chien, you know. That wasn't nothing but Chien that did this, you know. Oh, that was Jacoby right there.

00:22:18 Speaker_00
I always know. I always know which one, too. Because I know their energies.

00:22:23 Speaker_03
They each have their own distinctive signature.

00:22:27 Speaker_00
Oh my goodness, whenever it's time for rah-rah or for me to stand up, that's Chinyelu. Like, ma, uh-uh, you about to do this and whoop, whoop, whoop. That's how he would talk. You about to do the whoop-dee-doo. I was like, yes I am.

00:22:42 Speaker_00
Yeah, that was Chinyelu, boy.

00:22:48 Speaker_03
The person who was driving the car that killed Jacoby, what happened to that person?

00:22:55 Speaker_00
So Jacoby, his killer, he actually was a neighbor. Anderson lived on our same street. He got three to 15 years. He ended up doing three, but he was held accountable. And basically what happened was he left the scene.

00:23:08 Speaker_03
He left the scene knowing he had hit your child?

00:23:12 Speaker_00
Yes. And that's why he got three to 15 years. The people who killed Chinyelu, from what I understand, one of them is deceased and the other one is in jail right now. He's in for another crime. So I'm trying to work with the authorities.

00:23:26 Speaker_00
I'm telling them I saw what happened. I saw the people running away. I saw the men. I can identify the young man and everything. I don't know. It's just really, really slow and it's just dragging.

00:23:36 Speaker_00
And that right there for me, Anderson, it adds to the grief.

00:23:41 Speaker_03
Justice is important for you.

00:23:44 Speaker_00
Yes, it is. Because I got justice with Jacobi, but justice for Chinyalu is really important to me because, because it just is. And I think that he should be held accountable.

00:23:56 Speaker_00
So for me, that part right there is going to be solved and it's going to be taken care of.

00:24:01 Speaker_03
Is there something you've learned in your grief that would help others who are listening right now in their grief?

00:24:08 Speaker_00
I would say to strive to stay connected, even though the physical bond has been severed because those souls have something else to do. Still just know that they're part of you.

00:24:23 Speaker_00
It may not seem like it right then and there, but it is a beautiful thing later on, and it can be a beautiful thing later on.

00:24:30 Speaker_03
That notion that you can still have a relationship with somebody who's died is something I learned in the first season of this podcast from people I was talking to. And it was a revelation to me. And it's extraordinary.

00:24:47 Speaker_03
And it has helped me tremendously, that idea. It sort of opened up my mind to thinking about grief in a different way.

00:24:56 Speaker_00
And sometimes it may even help to even just like, Daddy, Daddy, I'm here right here. This is feeling this kind of way, or Ma. It's all right to say it out loud and stuff. That's what I do. Sometimes I'm like, Chin.

00:25:10 Speaker_00
Sometimes I'm so, I do like, you gotta say their name, say it three times. Watch, daddy, what should I, you know, I'm going through this. It's all right to say it like that. I have like, conversations just like that. I do.

00:25:27 Speaker_00
I talk to him just like he's here right now. When I'm picking out gym shoes, for real.

00:25:34 Speaker_03
You need his advice?

00:25:36 Speaker_00
Oh my goodness, Chen, is these sweet or not? I do. And I'm going to tell you, I've become a Jim Shue head since him because I'm telling you, he loved Jordans, all kinds of stuff. Whenever I say, I'm like, yeah, Chen would like these.

00:25:50 Speaker_00
I'm getting these boys. You should see me. And I just, and I get them. So now I'm like, oh my God, I'm 58 and got this whole Jim Shue closet. But it's just so much fun because that's why I stay in the moment.

00:26:03 Speaker_00
And when Jacoby says things, it's usually over my right shoulder. I'm going to tell you this one quick thing right quick. When we were raising money initially for building the village and we did this Kickstarter, my team was like, $50,000.

00:26:16 Speaker_00
Let's raise $50,000. I'm like, $50,000? That ain't going to get us nowhere. That ain't nothing but a roof. And I remember hearing Jacoby saying, big, big, big. That's all I heard over my shoulder. I'm like, OK. I said, nope, we're going to go $241,900.

00:26:31 Speaker_00
That's the amount. That's our goal. And we ended up raising $243,691 in 30 days. Wow. And I was just so, so happy. But when he said, go big, I was like, yeah, yeah, go big. And now that's the way I think, too. You know what?

00:26:50 Speaker_00
I'm not going to small change nothing, Anderson. I'm going for it. And Jacoby have made me go for it for real. He said, don't play around with this, my big, big.

00:27:02 Speaker_00
So whenever I'm thinking I'm small in myself or what it is that I'm doing and everything I'm like, no big and he what he was just a little short thing, you know But yes, I remember I just hear him speaking.

00:27:14 Speaker_00
I'm speaking it just loud and clear Yep, so that's what keeps me going to that's grief to glory. Yes, that's grief to glory Mama shoe.

00:27:25 Speaker_03
Thank you so much.

00:27:26 Speaker_00
You welcome Anderson. Thank you and peace and love to you and your heart. I

00:27:33 Speaker_03
Mama Shu continues to raise money to expand and improve Avalon Village. If you'd like to contribute to her dream or find out more information, you can go to her website, theavalonvillage.org, or follow her on Instagram at theavalonvillage.

00:27:50 Speaker_03
And a reminder, we've set up a new phone line for you to call if you would like to leave a message in our voice mailbox. Let me know if there's something you've learned in your grief that might help others.

00:27:59 Speaker_03
I can't promise we'll use your message, but I do promise I'll listen to all of the messages. Feel free to leave your name and phone number, but you don't have to. The number to call is 917-727-6818. That's 917-727-6818.

00:28:15 Speaker_03
I'll be back next week with a new episode of All There Is. And remember, wherever you are in your grief, you're not alone. All There Is is a production of CNN Audio. The show is produced by Grace Walker and Dan Bloom.

00:28:32 Speaker_03
Our senior producers are Haley Thomas and Felicia Patinkin. Dan DiZula is our technical director, and Steve Liktai is the executive producer of CNN Audio.

00:28:42 Speaker_03
Support from Charlie Moore, Cary Rubin, Shemrid Sheetrete, Ronnie Bettis, Alex Manassari, Robert Mathers, John D'Onora, Lainey Steinhardt, Jameis Andres, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namro. Special thanks to Katie Hinman.

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