Love the Child, Not the Father AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

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Episode: Love the Child, Not the Father

Author: Esther Perel Global Media
Duration: 00:59:16

Episode Shownotes

Theirs is an accelerated love story. They moved in, decided to have a baby, and are now struggling to weather the hardships of parenting together. She feels unsupported and like she's the only adult in the room. He is overwhelmed and constantly feels put down by her. They have split

up emotionally but not yet physically. Esther helps them sort through the power, gender, and trust issues that so often arise with new parents to see if it's enough to help them find their way back. Esther’s two new courses on desire are now available inside The Desire Bundle. Go to https://www.estherperel.com/course-bundles/the-desire-bundle to learn more about Bringing Desire Back and Playing with Desire. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary

In the episode 'Love the Child, Not the Father' from 'Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel', a couple grapples with the emotional turmoil of new parenthood after a whirlwind romance. The woman feels isolated and perceived as the only adult, while the man struggles with overwhelming feelings and lack of recognition. Their communication breakdown is exacerbated by power dynamics and gender roles, creating resentment and blame. Esther Perel encourages them to view their conflicts through a lens of performance, fostering humor and perspective to improve their connection and address their emotional needs amid parenting challenges.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Love the Child, Not the Father) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:02 Speaker_04
None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session.

00:00:10 Speaker_04
For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

00:00:24 Speaker_14
Support for this show comes from Amazon Prime. However you plan to make the most of the holiday season, you can do it with Amazon Prime.

00:00:32 Speaker_14
Whether it's last minute ingredients and stocking stuffers, or a themed puzzle to solve with the family, get fast free delivery on Holiday Essentials with Prime.

00:00:41 Speaker_14
And with Prime Video, you can curl up on the couch, warm drinks in hand, and have a holiday movie marathon. Throughout it all, you can tune into classic holiday playlists on Amazon Music.

00:00:52 Speaker_14
Whatever you're into this holiday season, from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.com slash prime to get more out of whatever you're into.

00:01:03 Speaker_02
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00:01:20 Speaker_02
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00:01:33 Speaker_02
Learn more at aclu.org.

00:01:44 Speaker_09
COVID lockdown functioned like an unusual speed dating and created ad hoc relationships where people that barely knew each other were often thrown together overnight, moving in with each other.

00:02:01 Speaker_10
We started dating when it was not far before COVID hit.

00:02:06 Speaker_05
We had an unexpected pregnancy. the very beginning of our relationship and like I found out I was pregnant the first day of lockdown.

00:02:15 Speaker_10
We made the decision not to continue with that and then fast forward maybe a year and a half and we had another pregnancy and we didn't want that.

00:02:26 Speaker_09
This is how these two people met. They got pregnant on the first day of lockdown, but they moved in together just a few weeks before and they began dating just shortly before that. So all of this was compressed with

00:02:42 Speaker_09
the big things at the beginning, and then the small steps of dating, of getting to know someone, following.

00:02:49 Speaker_09
And this instant face-to-face, going deep, worked quite well until the door opened and people began to ask the question, do I even like this person? And in this case, she likes the baby, but she doesn't like the man.

00:03:08 Speaker_05
I found within myself that I was not happy in this relationship and ended the relationship. But we're still cohabitating. We have this beautiful baby together. I have no idea, like, how we move forward.

00:03:21 Speaker_10
Somewhere in there, things began to go off the rails. It feels like, over time, we increasingly don't like each other. How do we shift to something that can be free of acrimony and friction How do we do it without our white knuckles clenched?

00:03:47 Speaker_06
So we were just seeing each other a lot, even in like the month before the lockdown.

00:03:52 Speaker_06
And then when I think about our time together in the lockdown, there was something that was intimate, but without knowing this whole other side of each other that existed.

00:04:07 Speaker_09
Meaning that you never saw each other in your respective lives?

00:04:11 Speaker_06
Yeah, we hadn't met all each other's friends or like known each other and how we are in sort of a normal life before the pandemic. And, you know, and I think the, you know, unexpected pregnancy was really challenging. It was in lockdown.

00:04:29 Speaker_06
And so I didn't feel like I had the access to the cares that I would normally have found for myself. And I had to You know, I had the pill, you know, so it was very painful and it didn't work. And then I needed to go have a procedure done in person.

00:04:46 Speaker_06
And, you know, of course that was like entirely alone. Yeah, I think emotionally it was like hard to work through. Very.

00:04:55 Speaker_09
Were you alone because ecologically, societally isolated and you had no supports? Or were you also alone vis-a-vis him?

00:05:07 Speaker_06
Um, yeah, I think that there was definitely like, I want to be there for you and I want to help. And also just like, whatever you want to do. I think that that is maybe like what you as a male, like are told that's what you're supposed to do.

00:05:27 Speaker_06
And I think it felt, you know, there was a sweetness to just wanting to just be there and, and help.

00:05:35 Speaker_11
But I was putting it in your court and therefore you were, it was like, whatever.

00:05:41 Speaker_06
Yeah. It was like, I think I did feel like alone and making decision and figuring out, you know, the logistics of it. And, you know, it's like, you take the pills and then you, You wait because it takes a while. And I think you were very anxious.

00:05:55 Speaker_06
And I remember being like, well, go take a walk. And then I got mad because you took a really long walk and you weren't back. And I was experiencing it. And I think I felt like I'm orchestrating this. I'm figuring this out.

00:06:13 Speaker_09
May I ask you something? Yeah. Because you're describing it around this very challenging experience of making a decision to terminate, experiencing that on the one hand it's your decision, but then also that you are alone with the decision.

00:06:32 Speaker_09
Wanting him to be present, but when he has any feelings about it, you basically tell him as if he can't handle it, so go take a walk. rather than just, it's anxiety producing, isn't it? You would probably too. Why does he take a walk?

00:06:49 Speaker_09
So there is this notion, and I'm sensing it, I may be completely off. You hate being alone, but you create situations that make you more alone. Is that something that I'm sensing accurately, or am I off?

00:07:13 Speaker_06
I think I feel very attuned to what others are feeling. And it's hard for it to not supersede what I'm feeling. And he has a lot of anxiety. And I find it overwhelming. It feels like chaos. And I see it as like, oh, I have to manage this.

00:07:38 Speaker_06
So let me just eliminate this chaos.

00:07:43 Speaker_09
In this pattern that you describe, I'm attuned to other people's feelings. They supersede mine. But then I feel like I have to manage theirs so that I can finally, maybe at some point, attend to mine. And that in itself feels overwhelming to me.

00:08:02 Speaker_09
And then I start to accrue resentment because I feel like I'm always last and I never even get my chance. Is he number one in your life that you do this with, or this is an old school?

00:08:15 Speaker_06
I think I did it in my family too. I think I have three siblings and... Your number? Number two.

00:08:22 Speaker_06
I, yeah, I think I just remember being a little bit even removed from myself and just like observing around me what was happening and just kind of understanding that like, oh, I just need to like not add to this chaos.

00:08:40 Speaker_09
but nobody notices me. That's the old voice, right? No, here I am, attuned to everybody, and nobody notices me. That's the pain underneath the resentment. That hurts.

00:09:06 Speaker_06
I think I feel very unknown in this relationship.

00:09:10 Speaker_09
and at home. And I just created family. And it's not uncommon that when we create family, our family history reappears full force too. It's like a memory bank that opens up.

00:09:27 Speaker_06
Yeah. Oh, I guess it just slowly started to not be okay. But I think initially, you know, in our first date, he just asked a lot of very like,

00:09:37 Speaker_09
He wanted to get to know you. Yeah. And he asked very curious questions.

00:09:43 Speaker_06
Yeah. And I, you know, I remember at the end of the date, I felt like, oh, wow, I just talk so much. And that felt kind of unusual and nice. Yeah. And then slowly it just started to feel like

00:10:03 Speaker_06
he was just this more dominant presence in terms of emoting what felt like all over and it felt like a lot of negative emotions and when you're pregnant, it's like everything is changing and there wasn't a change on his side and I started to think I'm gonna have to carry like so much of this and

00:10:29 Speaker_06
I think I was like, I can do it. I can do it. And then just the resentment just started to really build. You're sort of in this position where everyone's so excited. And I was excited, but I wasn't feeling supported and I wasn't feeling taken care of.

00:10:53 Speaker_09
The first thought I have is what happened on their first date and how taken she was by his curiosity, his attention to her, and how it was opening up for her a deep yearning of someone really wanting to get to know her.

00:11:16 Speaker_09
And when he then starts to have his own reactions, And she starts to feel that he's not nearly present enough. He becomes the representation of a lot of the deprivations that she has experienced throughout her life. And then add to that COVID lockdown.

00:11:38 Speaker_09
I mean, I wrote a book called Mating in Captivity. This was Mating in Captivity, the quarantine edition. If there ever was a time when we turned to one person to give us what once an entire village is meant to provide, this was it.

00:11:55 Speaker_09
It's not that she could temper his absence with the presence of others and the support of others, that she could turn to other people. It's that everything was turned toward him.

00:12:06 Speaker_09
That compounded things and made the crisis come up much sooner and much more steep.

00:12:14 Speaker_09
And so as she was talking about how he started out as a beautiful listener, and he was so curious about her, in a way we were doing the exact same thing in this beginning of the session.

00:12:27 Speaker_09
I was taking my time to get to know her, to allow her to come forward, and I was watching him. re-enter his role as a curious person that he is, or once was, that I don't know yet.

00:12:50 Speaker_09
You started out as a beautiful listener, who asked questions, who made her feel like, wow, this is kind of what I've always dreamt about. You started out in a very privileged position. Privileged as in unusual for her, special. And then.

00:13:14 Speaker_09
How did you get demoted?

00:13:17 Speaker_12
I think some of it goes to what she just was talking about in terms of change, the pregnancy change as we emerge from the pandemic. But one thing that she said that was true and has been true is that I haven't changed.

00:13:31 Speaker_12
There hasn't been much of a finger lifted to address the anxiety, to address the dumping on.

00:13:41 Speaker_12
And so, there's an element of this whole thing that like, you know, where I feel at fault, I feel responsible, I feel that this could have been repaired, or healed, or the ship could have been righted. And so that's part of it.

00:13:59 Speaker_12
There's a recognition there. And then with our son... Take a moment. Just stay with this for a bit.

00:14:13 Speaker_09
Is this something you've said before? Out loud.

00:14:20 Speaker_12
I think that she knows, but she's watched me not.

00:14:24 Speaker_09
That's not the same. She knows, but you're acknowledging what she sees is a different step. Right? It starts with acknowledgement. and then accountability and then reckoning. Otherwise you don't have a shared base from which to start. Right.

00:14:49 Speaker_12
I recognize something's off and that it could be amended and potentially improved upon by doing something and that something is not done. I know that this is a piece of this and you said it too.

00:15:03 Speaker_12
It's like if I don't do anything, I don't initiate anything or make any kind of change then it's all left on you and that's especially the case with him now.

00:15:14 Speaker_12
Once we moved into this phase where it was like the white flag was flown and we're not together.

00:15:22 Speaker_12
And then it shifted into something else like an entrenched War of attrition or something it feels like resentment bubbling and blowing up and then resentment bubbling and blowing up and then I mean part of it's because it was recent part of this because it was last night, but there's a Crystallization there was a unfortunate nail on the head that you identified yesterday when I came home and and I was I

00:15:49 Speaker_12
overwhelmed and stressed and it was thing after thing. And then I got home in time to join you guys for the bedtime routine, which was all I wanted. But I came in there with this energy that was not resolved energy, it was built up.

00:16:05 Speaker_12
And you said some things that were hurtful at the time, something to the effect of like, you're complaining, you're grousing, you're bitching is like the soundtrack. to so much of my life that I just want to be away from or something like that.

00:16:24 Speaker_12
And that hurt. And immediately where I went was like, I want to shoot some arrows that are just as sharp back at you. And I recognized that there was little to argue with there. Like, who would want that?

00:16:54 Speaker_12
Whatever it is that it has me stuck, I feel like instead of really actually responding to it in an effort to get unstuck, it's like I will just divert that energy or those feelings into something that I can identify that's negative.

00:17:12 Speaker_12
Like how shitty the Q train is at rush hour or how corrupt these Supreme Court justices are. And none of that shit, none of that stuff has anything to do with what I'm feeling. It's a lot of complaining.

00:17:29 Speaker_06
Yeah, it's like this externalization of what you're feeling. And so like, it doesn't even feel like I need to be there. Like, it feels like you're monologuing about the world.

00:17:38 Speaker_06
And like, in my head, I somehow like, thought it was on me to like, divert you into like, what if we just focus on something else? Or what if you, you know, did breathing exercises or yoga or therapy.

00:17:54 Speaker_06
Like, I just think I spend so much time just trying to help you. And then I think, you know, since we've broken up, it's like, I just, I don't have to, that's not on me anymore. And I have like,

00:18:07 Speaker_06
baby to take care of and that it's an inappropriate person for me to take care of in that way. And you are not. I mean, what I said was honest. Like, you're just going off. You're going off.

00:18:18 Speaker_06
And like, I'm there trying to like wrangle our son into his pajamas and get him to drink some milk and read a book. And it's like, there's nothing about what you're saying that is connective to me. And now it's also just like, you blame me for things.

00:18:37 Speaker_06
Like you start talking about the environmental things in your life that are so hard, which is like the city that we live in, which is the city that you hate. And I am making you stay here and it's my fault.

00:18:51 Speaker_06
And you can't believe anyone would want to live here. And it's so, it's angry. There's anger directed at me. It's passive, but it's, it's another thing that you, avoid your own feelings by blaming it on everything else.

00:19:11 Speaker_09
You know, I'm listening to both of you. And there is blame. You switch from responsibility to blame very quick. And the blame can be externalized, but you also blame yourself. And then you blame yourself in such a way that it completely immobilizes you.

00:19:40 Speaker_09
Because where to begin? Who would want to be with me? This is fucked up. And so one minute you are fucked up, you the world, whoever is outside there, and one minute I'm fucked up. And you go from contempt to self-pity.

00:20:03 Speaker_12
It's a lot of both of those.

00:20:07 Speaker_09
At this moment, you have both decided that you're going to transition into co-parenting, or you're pulling that ship?

00:20:21 Speaker_06
I mean, I've heard different things from you, but... Well, you started that ship.

00:20:27 Speaker_12
You started pulling that ship in that direction, and for a while, I wasn't on board, I wasn't on that page, I wasn't on that team.

00:20:38 Speaker_12
I've gotten there, I don't know if we're in the exact same spot, but I think part of why I've gotten there is because it's become so frequently contentious that it doesn't seem tenable.

00:20:49 Speaker_12
And so it's almost like I got pulled along with that ship or something. I didn't passively say, I'm, but... But neither did you say, I know what I need to do.

00:21:02 Speaker_09
It's not like she hasn't been clear. It's not even like I disagree with what she's saying. I'm gonna fight for this, and I'm gonna do what it takes.

00:21:13 Speaker_09
And the more you go passive, and the more she resents the fact that she has to make all the decisions, but she continues making them, and the more you'll blame yourself saying, that's really not what I wanted.

00:21:29 Speaker_09
So the more passive you go, and the more contentious she will be, and the more contentious she will be, and the more passive you will become. And by the way, that doesn't change once you just become co-parents.

00:21:42 Speaker_09
I mean, at this moment, you want a relationship by design. You want to create a particular kind of arrangement. That's a designer model.

00:21:52 Speaker_09
And so there is sex, there is money, there is food, there is people, there is professions, there is time, there is your child. Those are dimensions of a relationship.

00:22:05 Speaker_09
They all will continue, some of them, even if it's not sex with each other, it will be other partners. So all of this is part of the conversation. Some of it is very concrete. It's not just psychological.

00:22:19 Speaker_09
Some of it we are talking psychologically, we're looking at some patterns, but what happens is that the conversation about the practicality gets mired with the conversation about the psychology, and then there is no conversation.

00:22:34 Speaker_06
Right, right. I think I understand. We had a fight about laundry where- Oh, I forgot the laundry.

00:22:44 Speaker_09
And the gardening, maybe, as well. And the garbage. And the dishwasher. And a few more.

00:22:53 Speaker_06
And, you know, for a long time, I was doing all the laundry and he was doing his laundry. And then I said, you have to do the baby's laundry. And then we just recently did, like, an overhaul of clothes to give away and season change.

00:23:08 Speaker_06
And there was just a pile of clothes that were going to laundry. And then it's growing. and he's getting stressed and he's like, that's way too much laundry, I can't.

00:23:19 Speaker_06
And so it's like this choice that I then have to like either just keep the pressure on and say, well, this is what needs to be done to say like, I'll just do it.

00:23:29 Speaker_09
How about, I trust you will figure this out.

00:23:39 Speaker_06
Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:41 Speaker_09
I mean, you are both, as far as I can see, adults.

00:23:46 Speaker_06
I mean, that does, that is, plays into it. There is a lot of ways in which it's like... No, but you're not talking to an adult. I feel like the adult. Like, I feel like I'm the adult.

00:23:56 Speaker_09
May I ask you what you do?

00:23:59 Speaker_12
Yeah, I work at a hospital. I'm a social worker there.

00:24:02 Speaker_09
Oh, you're an adult.

00:24:04 Speaker_12
Yeah.

00:24:05 Speaker_09
When he is stressed or anxious or rigid or whatever, you instantly play into it. I'm sure you'll figure it out, is what one says to an adult.

00:24:18 Speaker_06
Yeah, I do that sometimes, and more so now.

00:24:21 Speaker_09
But without resentment.

00:24:24 Speaker_06
Yeah, I think I just got tired of being angry all the time, and so...

00:24:30 Speaker_09
But the anger is partly because a part of you thinks, do I persist or do I relinquish and take more on on me? So you're also in an either or.

00:24:41 Speaker_06
But also just the fact of being someone to complain, you know, it's like, you didn't say it was going to be this much laundry. It's like, I am not the CEO of this company.

00:24:50 Speaker_09
I love to throw surprises.

00:24:52 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:24:54 Speaker_09
You understand?

00:24:54 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:24:55 Speaker_09
You're trapped in the, you didn't say, no, I didn't know. Just, you know, I wanted to make sure that you get some unpredictability in your life. It's good for the rigidity.

00:25:05 Speaker_06
Right. Right. It's like, there's an absurdity to complaining about it. So why not respond with that? Exactly!

00:25:12 Speaker_09
We got it. Because then you don't step in.

00:25:16 Speaker_06
Yeah, it's like I need to protect my energy in that way too, like it's exhausting.

00:25:22 Speaker_09
Or you may just enjoy absurd theatre. It's like you take it literal. He says, you didn't tell me. And now it becomes a conversation about you didn't tell me. And should you tell me? And how would you know? And you didn't measure it.

00:25:33 Speaker_09
And you didn't have a weight. And play with it almost in a way that says, yeah, I know, I get it. But you know what? I wanted to make sure that you remember that life is filled with unknown. Give him some existential, you know.

00:26:03 Speaker_06
just become this sort of passive person in our relationship. And like also, oh, you're seeing this as outside of your purview because it's not your clothes, even though it's your son's clothes.

00:26:15 Speaker_06
Like, even these mundane tasks become this whole narrative of what feels like what went wrong, things that I just absorbed for so long and then got so mad.

00:26:30 Speaker_09
This is not about the laundry or any of the items. This is about, can I rely on you? Can I trust you? Who's taking care of me? If you do this laundry, it's not that you wash the baby's clothes. It's that I feel that I have a partner and I'm not alone.

00:26:46 Speaker_09
This is not an uncommon story in relationships, in which one person is in the role of the adult, wants the other person to be more of an adult, but actually treats them in a more infantilized way, which makes the other person then respond exactly in kind, and it becomes a confirmation bias.

00:27:08 Speaker_09
In straight couples, it plays itself out around gender, but in all couples, it's often also an issue of roles.

00:27:15 Speaker_09
the one who watches what needs to be done and then assigns and does, and the one who's waiting to be told what to do and then has their complaints about the assignment.

00:27:29 Speaker_09
And I think the most important piece is not to get sidetracked by the item at hand, but really by the dynamic. the power issues, the gender issues, the trust issues. It's all those things that are being discussed, disguised in the laundry pile.

00:27:52 Speaker_09
We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

00:28:01 Speaker_14
Support for this show comes from Amazon Prime. However you plan to make the most of the holiday season, you can do it with Amazon Prime.

00:28:09 Speaker_14
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00:28:18 Speaker_14
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00:28:29 Speaker_14
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00:28:40 Speaker_00
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00:30:28 Speaker_09
When he complains about the size of the load, just tell him that you carefully chose a few more pounds. If the two of you find yourself with that little bit of a smile, you will change your life. Yeah. This is not about conflict resolution.

00:30:50 Speaker_09
This is also about keeping perspective. You have a little one. You need both of you to reconnect with the lightness of being because you could be arguing about a lot of stupid stuff that you take as something extremely important.

00:31:08 Speaker_09
And so from one to 10, how important is this one? This is very basic things, but they are actually extremely powerful. You need to, first of all, remove the crust that's sticking.

00:31:25 Speaker_12
Yeah, the crust. That's an image that feels like it lands. I think that's what this is. The crust builds. It just builds.

00:31:35 Speaker_09
It sticks. The main thing is it sticks. And that's the rigidity. The patterns become narrower, faster, and more rigid. What used to take 10 minutes to build can take 10 seconds. You do your thing, she does her thing, you do your thing, he does his thing.

00:31:54 Speaker_09
Done. So if you had a pool of benevolence, that's the word I can think of. There needs to be some benevolence. And this I say more to you. Yeah, yeah, I hear it too.

00:32:10 Speaker_09
Because you go into that state of what's wrong, and I should do, and I don't know why I don't.

00:32:18 Speaker_12
And that it's pretty easy to say, OK, yeah, it's partially me, but it's also partially you.

00:32:24 Speaker_09
Yeah, it's 100% each of you.

00:32:26 Speaker_12
It doesn't matter.

00:32:27 Speaker_09
Your blame system is going to undermine you. It's the most miserable way to think about relationships.

00:32:36 Speaker_12
The rigidity is the biggest part of the whole thing. I think that if you talk to people that knew me in previous little sections of my life, rigidity is not a word that… What about pettiness?

00:32:47 Speaker_09
Pettiness wasn't… I think it all… It all came together. So how shall we name that part of you? that goes rigid and petty.

00:32:55 Speaker_12
Well, there's a narrowness. There's an assumption that the world should be one way. And if it in any way deviates from that, then fuck somebody, me or somebody.

00:33:06 Speaker_09
I'm looking for a name as in a metaphor. I know we've described it, but you know, the important piece here is this is a part of you. This isn't all of you. It wasn't always you.

00:33:16 Speaker_09
So at this moment, instead of having a conversation with her, you need to have a conversation with it. And just on occasion say, today I don't really want to have you there. I mean, I'm going to invite somebody else for dinner.

00:33:30 Speaker_09
Because you're about to ruin my life, my relationship, my fatherhood.

00:33:37 Speaker_12
The recognition of the absurdity of all of this. Just a couple of days ago, I was riding my bike and I was headed to a friend's house and I got caught in a downpour.

00:33:48 Speaker_12
I was muttering and I was upset and then there was just like a light switch where it was like, I'm not changing any of this and for some reason that light switch is so much harder to access. less frequently accessed these days.

00:34:10 Speaker_12
But it was this moment, it was this glimpse of like, that felt metaphorical. Like, who am I pissed at? The sky? There was nothing I could do to change it.

00:34:20 Speaker_12
And I feel like that is what so often I play with this stuff, the rigidity and seeing the laundry load get higher and higher and want to undo that somehow and bring it back to a place that

00:34:35 Speaker_12
is understandable and recognizable and familiar and manageable.

00:34:39 Speaker_09
When he goes into that performance, I would love you to become a theater spectator.

00:34:48 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:34:48 Speaker_09
And tell him this is a six.

00:34:52 Speaker_06
It is like a monologue. I got it.

00:34:55 Speaker_09
I think you should edit a few pieces because it's just a six.

00:35:01 Speaker_06
Yeah. He does have a theater background. He is a trained actor.

00:35:05 Speaker_09
Wonderful. Ask him if he could help you, serve you something that you enjoy. It could be tea, water, or whatever drink you want. Say, I'd like to watch. Could you start from the beginning? And basically become a spectator.

00:35:22 Speaker_09
of this performance because it's a performance.

00:35:27 Speaker_06
It is, yeah.

00:35:28 Speaker_09
Okay. And grade it or review it. That's probably a better word. But you see where I'm trying to take you for a moment. And this you can do to all, you know, bad script. That's great. Needs a rewrite. Needs a rewrite.

00:35:49 Speaker_09
So instead of being ex-partners, I would like you to become joint playwrights. I chose the word performance, not as a dismissal. I could have used the word enactment. I didn't know yet that he was an actor at the theater.

00:36:13 Speaker_09
But if it's a performance, it's less an intrinsic part of you. And it's more a scene that you get into, a part of you that takes over. So what I'm looking at with them is how much flexibility is there.

00:36:31 Speaker_09
A real diagnostic is when I come up with something that is light, but that brings perspective, humor. And if the people join me, if they instantly laugh at it, it means that they too have some distance to not take all of this so seriously.

00:36:50 Speaker_09
So can I help them? not fall in the traps, avoid these pitfalls, even if they choose to only be co-parents. And so I decided to locate myself there.

00:37:10 Speaker_06
I think it's helpful because I think it prevents me from taking it on.

00:37:15 Speaker_12
Well, you get sucked into it too, the seriousness. The weighty, leady.

00:37:22 Speaker_06
Yeah, it's a real downer.

00:37:23 Speaker_12
It's the release of the thoughts.

00:37:26 Speaker_06
It's a release of the thoughts, but it's not even really connected to what you're feeling. I don't think you feel better after doing it.

00:37:35 Speaker_12
After the performance?

00:37:37 Speaker_09
He actually used a very interesting word. He mutters. On the bike, he was muttering. Speak up. Put him in front of the mirror and just say, take a look. I think you may want to put a little bit more accent there. And then go do your thing.

00:37:57 Speaker_09
But I am trying to unstick you. Because that's part of the crust. This is a play. A relationship is a story. You're right. It needs edits. You've gone down a path where the story is just an absolute downer.

00:38:16 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:38:18 Speaker_09
And it's becoming real. It starts to feel like it's not a story, but that's the truth.

00:38:23 Speaker_06
Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like this heteronormative nightmare.

00:38:30 Speaker_09
That's an old story.

00:38:31 Speaker_06
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It feels so tired.

00:38:34 Speaker_09
And so what are the main lines of that heteronormative nightmare in your script?

00:38:40 Speaker_06
just a childlike man and like a... I already have a kid.

00:38:46 Speaker_09
I don't need another one.

00:38:47 Speaker_06
Yeah. And you know, this sort of humorless woman who's like not even given a full character.

00:38:55 Speaker_09
She's just a resentful bitch.

00:38:56 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:38:57 Speaker_09
Is that the word?

00:38:58 Speaker_06
Yeah.

00:38:59 Speaker_09
I've been there. It's okay. Yeah, that's how I feel. I haven't had my part in that play, you know?

00:39:05 Speaker_06
Right. And I really resent feeling like that. Yes. Because I don't think that I... What happened to me. Right. That's not who I am. Right.

00:39:18 Speaker_09
How did I end up this person? Yes. To not focus. only on the big decision. How do we move out? Because if you stay in what you have called your heteronormative nightmare, then it doesn't matter under what roof he sleeps. Or you sleep.

00:39:40 Speaker_09
Yeah, we still have the same problems. So I am going a little bit

00:39:46 Speaker_09
less upstream, closer to where you are, and trying to give you movement so that you can react differently, which will change the perspective, which will change the tone, which will change the reorganization of the relationship.

00:40:05 Speaker_09
if there is more lightness or laughter, as in you don't get hooked into everything, and every moment is another cortisol shot of stress.

00:40:15 Speaker_06
Yeah, yeah. It's like this intolerance I have for other people being unhappy, or other people being agitated.

00:40:23 Speaker_09
So I'm giving you some very, very concrete tools. You will learn to disengage without having to cut off. Yeah.

00:40:34 Speaker_09
You will learn to differentiate, to separate yourself from it and then decide how you want to react to it rather than be instantly sucked in and then resentful to him that he complains but you are doing the resentment piece. So this is bad theater.

00:40:53 Speaker_06
Yeah, it's bad theater.

00:40:55 Speaker_09
And you have to respond to it like you have the editing power. Yeah. What I'm noticing, and is often the case in reactive couples, is that they are symmetric. Each one may think the other one is rigid, but in fact they both are.

00:41:16 Speaker_09
As much as he has become the complainer, she has become the person who cannot hear him say much, without instantly translating it into, he's my downer, I cannot pay attention to him, I need all my energy to stay focused on my child.

00:41:36 Speaker_09
So she's as stuck as him. And introducing lightness is introducing the ability to have a space between action and reaction. to decide how do I want to interpret this? What will I do with this? And that is actually extremely liberating.

00:42:00 Speaker_09
If I can make fun of something or light of something, then I start to feel like I have a lot more control. I don't feel like the other person is pulling me down because I don't let myself be pulled.

00:42:14 Speaker_09
And honestly, I do not think that these complaints need to be taken so seriously. I think that her need to feel that he can be there for her is important and serious.

00:42:28 Speaker_09
The feeling alone and not feeling that one can put one's own feelings in the center because the partner takes up all the real estate, that's important. Those are the issues. But to address them, we need to clear the space first, and that

00:42:44 Speaker_09
I am trying to do in this case by watering the field with a different perspective. And it seems light, but it actually runs very deep. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about.

00:43:07 Speaker_09
We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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00:45:50 Speaker_06
I have the power or the positioning to respond to you differently when I feel like there's a dumping happening, that I can see it.

00:46:03 Speaker_06
I can not fall into this narrative that we have of resentment and trappedness, and instead I can help rewrite, I can help step back and I guess have grace for you in those moments and not feel sucked into it.

00:46:26 Speaker_06
And I don't know, I just keep going back to responsible. It's absurd that you're complaining about the Supreme Court and I'm feeling burdened by it. That is an absurd thing.

00:46:38 Speaker_06
And that's a way to be benevolent to you and to bring benevolence into our dynamic.

00:46:46 Speaker_12
Yeah, yeah, the pattern was really beginning to etch itself into the floor, our dynamic. And I was playing a role, and I've got one note, and then we just, we were both playing our roles.

00:47:04 Speaker_06
I don't know, the whole play metaphor, I think it's a little uncomfortable for me.

00:47:15 Speaker_12
It's a little uncomfortable for me too, but I also, I feel like I can access it.

00:47:22 Speaker_12
through practice, through some rehearsals, but this idea that we aren't etched in, that actually there is some buoyancy and some malleability and that it can change and you just change the costume. I'm not saying it's that simple. I know it's not.

00:47:36 Speaker_12
There's even some peril to going through life thinking that you're a character who can just change hats.

00:47:42 Speaker_09
You're not going through life. It's just that the parts you've been playing are deadly.

00:47:50 Speaker_12
And boring.

00:47:51 Speaker_09
And if you continue, and boring, and feel like, how did I get there? The illicit grief. I once was. What happened to that person? Where did she go? So, this is one attempt. And it feels awkward at first. But you know what's bizarre?

00:48:13 Speaker_09
Is that what you're doing doesn't feel awkward.

00:48:17 Speaker_06
I mean, it does. It feels awkward to have a monologue go on and have to pretend to respond to it. It's not authentically like, oh, tell me more. It's like, all right, do I try to puncture the anger, or do I snap back, or do I walk away?

00:48:33 Speaker_06
I'm still deciding what is my next move as this actor.

00:48:38 Speaker_09
Could you do a little venting?

00:48:45 Speaker_12
Yeah, you want to give me something to vent about?

00:48:46 Speaker_09
No, no, just, I don't think you need help. Would you do a little bit of it? That comes so natural to you, so.

00:48:57 Speaker_12
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:00 Speaker_09
Are you OK if we trade?

00:49:01 Speaker_06
Yeah. I mean, you could just talk about what you were doing last night. You got too much. You want me to just recount yesterday? Too many, yeah. All right.

00:49:12 Speaker_12
Yeah, today was, today was fine. It was fine until around lunchtime when I looked down and I only have one pair of pants that don't have holes in them.

00:49:21 Speaker_12
And I wore them today and then a pen exploded in them and it looks like I'm walking around like a cartoon. So then I had to, I forewent lunch and I had to go to the store and I had to buy another pair of pants.

00:49:34 Speaker_12
And then once his name came and he was late and so then I ended up just staying late.

00:49:40 Speaker_12
And I was racing home and well then I didn't race home because because I was late I figured this is the time to go to the grocery store and that particular grocery store like every single grocery store in this town.

00:49:52 Speaker_09
You don't have to freeze. You can literally stop him at any moment with the most discontinuous line.

00:50:02 Speaker_12
There's no end to this.

00:50:04 Speaker_09
It's not like this will end.

00:50:06 Speaker_12
No, it was shoulder to shoulder with everybody and then I'm packing all this stuff up and nobody's going in the same direction. There's no flow.

00:50:12 Speaker_12
I'm trying to listen to music, trying to calm myself and then I know that these bags are getting heavier and my back is about to break and then I get on the train. Nowhere to set anything down.

00:50:20 Speaker_09
It's a dog. It's really good.

00:50:23 Speaker_12
Yeah. And so I look at people and I'm like, if I look at you and you have four bags on your back, maybe you're in the same boat as a pregnant person or an elderly person.

00:50:32 Speaker_06
Maybe you should pretend to be pregnant.

00:50:34 Speaker_12
Maybe I should pretend to be pregnant.

00:50:37 Speaker_09
If you were in the theater, you'd be watching this and you'd think this guy's good. At home, you'd think this is unbearable.

00:50:47 Speaker_06
Yeah. The actor thing is really hard for me. It's like, there's this like stepping into a performance that happens fluidly and I'm always grounded in like, how do I respond to this? Like this is happening without me here.

00:51:01 Speaker_06
So, you know, you wouldn't respond to someone on stage. Like you, there's a dominating factor to it where it's like, I walk away, and I've just absorbed this performance. I don't feel it as like, oh, my partner's having a bad day. I want to help.

00:51:20 Speaker_06
I feel it as like, oh, there's a performance of discontent, and it's directed at me, and I don't know how to be an actor. I'm not trained that way. So the idea of stepping on stage with him, I get it. I think there's a lot of

00:51:38 Speaker_06
opportunity to like pull him closer to me off stage?

00:51:44 Speaker_09
The goal is not to bring him closer to you. The goal is for you to create a boundary. Yeah. Where his monologue doesn't become your internal life. Yeah. It's really about experiencing a separateness. Yeah. Because you dream

00:52:09 Speaker_09
separateness, but you are invaded with everything he has just said. It's like he colors your entire interiority.

00:52:20 Speaker_06
But I feel like I have relationships in which people share deep, intense emotions.

00:52:25 Speaker_09
And you don't have that issue. I don't have that issue.

00:52:28 Speaker_06
And I've attributed to like, well, they're sharing their experience and they're being vulnerable. And I can hold space for that. But this is not that.

00:52:38 Speaker_09
So how do I maintain that space with him? The fact that I don't need to do this with other people is great. And then there is also the fact that sometimes with our partners, we end up experiencing what we felt at home more than with anybody else.

00:52:57 Speaker_09
There's only two relationships that resemble each other. The one you grew up in and the one you then have a romantic tie to, even if it's an undone tie at this point. So it's about, you know what, I prefer the one of yesterday. Yesterday's was better.

00:53:15 Speaker_09
It's that level of comment. It's not entering the stage with him.

00:53:19 Speaker_06
So it's not like... breaking him off of it.

00:53:23 Speaker_09
It's just about... It's all about you. It's about me. It's all about you. That's the whole point. It's about, you know, it's amazing the level of detail with which you observe people on the subway.

00:53:37 Speaker_09
It's so great because most people these days don't look at anything. You should write that down. He may not even smile. Now he's smiling. He may not smile, but you won't get sucked in. This is the first level of operation.

00:53:53 Speaker_09
I'm doing real micro surgery here. Those little lines, they preserve you. They create a boundary. It would be great if he didn't do what he does and he did what the other friends do. But it's not happening that way.

00:54:07 Speaker_09
So you need that agency that you described. I have a way of actually not having your whole day become my day. That is fusion. And I'm giving you one little tool for differentiation.

00:54:23 Speaker_06
Because now I'd say I'm going to my root, I'm shutting down.

00:54:26 Speaker_09
But that means that the only way I can have a boundary is if I disconnect and I cut off and I completely leave. Yeah. That's okay, but that's one piece in the repertoire. Right.

00:54:39 Speaker_09
Most of the time, by the time I've closed my door, that whole shtick is inside of me anyway, walking down the hallway. It takes me God knows how long before I can cleanse that out. Yeah.

00:54:51 Speaker_09
Whereas if he goes into his thing and you just give him, what's the line, you know, a response that actually preserves me?

00:55:01 Speaker_06
Right, because he can blame me for... whatever, but I don't have to accept that. You're in it.

00:55:09 Speaker_09
You're in it saying, I don't want to be in it, but you're in it.

00:55:14 Speaker_06
You're in it and I can't leave it unless you change, unless you go to therapy.

00:55:17 Speaker_09
That's all fusion. I need you to change versus if I don't want to do this, I don't do this. Fusion is when I need him to change in order for me to not have to feel what I feel. That's how intertwined we are.

00:55:36 Speaker_09
If I want to be able to hold on to myself in his presence, I need to create that line, that delineation. This is very profound, what we're saying here. It's one of the most challenging things in a relationship.

00:55:53 Speaker_09
I'm doing it in this pseudo playful way, but the underlying of this is a real restructuring of the whole relationship, which you're going to need no matter what model you opt for afterwards.

00:56:16 Speaker_09
It's so tempting to want the other person to stop doing what they do so that we won't feel what we feel.

00:56:23 Speaker_09
And yet there is so much more power and agency if we find a way to disengage emotionally in a way that preserves us without having to leave the other person completely.

00:56:39 Speaker_09
What I'm talking about with her is actually a way to stay connected to herself, to not let his day become her day, to not be hijacked, but also to not have to sever the entire connection.

00:56:52 Speaker_09
I'm not only interested in this between him and her, but I also know there is a child in the picture. And because this is intergenerational, the chain goes on.

00:57:17 Speaker_04
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

00:57:27 Speaker_04
Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Allen. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

00:57:39 Speaker_04
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

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