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Episode: Kimberley Quinlan (on anxiety and self-compassion)

Author: Armchair Umbrella
Duration: 01:59:55

Episode Shownotes

Kimberley Quinlan is a therapist and anxiety specialist. Kimberley joins the Armchair Expert to discuss her self-compassion test, her techniques in treating anxiety disorders, and what orthorexia is. Kimberley and Dax talk about how much stress people can feel over their food choices, why having acceptance of your own personality

traits is important, and the connection between OCD and eating disorders. Kimberley explains what olfactory reference syndrome is, what happens to your body when you criticize yourself, and tools you can use to get over the fear of flying. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_06
Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:13 Speaker_06
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Rather, and I'm joined by Lily Padmon.

00:00:19 Speaker_09
Hello.

00:00:20 Speaker_06
Hello.

00:00:20 Speaker_09
What if it was Padmon?

00:00:22 Speaker_06
I'm sure somewhere it is. Well, a lot of people think it's- Hari doesn't like your name.

00:00:29 Speaker_09
Yeah, we have a neighbor who is Indian and he has a pretty big beef with my name.

00:00:36 Speaker_06
He's also, we gotta add, he's one of the smartest human beings I've ever met in my life. He has like a double doctorate in finance and something else crazy, physics or something.

00:00:46 Speaker_09
He was a professor at UCLA, right?

00:00:48 Speaker_06
Yeah, yeah.

00:00:49 Speaker_09
Yeah, he's awesome. And we like talking, but every now and then he'll just be like, ah, like, I just can't.

00:00:56 Speaker_06
It's not right. I can't with your name. He wants to know what it really was, basically.

00:01:00 Speaker_09
No, he knows what it was. And it was, should I say it?

00:01:03 Speaker_06
Yes.

00:01:05 Speaker_09
It was Padmanabhan.

00:01:07 Speaker_06
Padmanabhan.

00:01:09 Speaker_09
That reaction, that very American reaction.

00:01:12 Speaker_06
No, I just like that. Say it again.

00:01:14 Speaker_09
Padmanabhan.

00:01:15 Speaker_06
Padmanabhan.

00:01:16 Speaker_09
Yeah. It's hard.

00:01:18 Speaker_06
No, it's great. It's fun. It sounds like alliteration.

00:01:22 Speaker_09
Sure, but there's many Padmans because it does get shortened, obviously. And my grandfather shortened it, not my dad. And I think Pari thinks my dad did. And I kept saying, that's my grandfather. And he said, yeah, but why wouldn't it be Padma?

00:01:38 Speaker_09
He wanted it to be Padma.

00:01:40 Speaker_06
That's a compromise he could live with.

00:01:41 Speaker_09
But Padma's a first name.

00:01:43 Speaker_06
We know a Padma. We interviewed a Padma.

00:01:45 Speaker_09
That's right, Padma Lakshmi.

00:01:46 Speaker_06
Go check it out.

00:01:47 Speaker_09
In the archives.

00:01:48 Speaker_06
Listen, go to the archives. I implore everyone to go to the archives and just dabble. You only got to listen to a couple minutes of an episode and do that three or four times a week. Okay, our guest today is Kimberly Quinlan.

00:02:02 Speaker_06
And Kimberly, as we'll explain in the episode, but I think it's fun to know even going into it, is that when we first got criticism for how we were talking about OCD, warranted, we were wrong.

00:02:11 Speaker_06
And I looked up people that were well-versed in this space. She's who I found, we invited her on, and she has so much integrity. She said, you really want to talk to my friend, Allegra. Yes. She's awesome.

00:02:22 Speaker_09
That was such a great episode. It's in the archives.

00:02:24 Speaker_06
Check it out. Even a couple of minutes. So it's, uh, listen to the whole thing of that. That was so good. Yes, absolutely. Also, you know what I was thinking?

00:02:32 Speaker_06
This is totally off basis, but we had Brody and Kristen on way before the fun, the social phenomena.

00:02:39 Speaker_09
I know, I like being ahead.

00:02:41 Speaker_06
Of the show. But I want people now to, I feel like if we released it right now, it would be so exciting. Re-release? I think we should do a re, or just post about it. Yeah. Or just, if you're watching this, go back.

00:02:57 Speaker_06
Kimberly is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a public speaker, a podcast host, and she is the founder of CBT School, an online psychoeducation platform where she offers support and research-based education products to those who cannot access correct care.

00:03:13 Speaker_06
Her podcast, which is great, is called Your Anxiety Toolkit, and she covers, the topics are endless.

00:03:19 Speaker_09
Yeah, this was fun. We got into a lot of interesting topics.

00:03:22 Speaker_06
And we took a test, which we love taking a test. Yeah, we live for tests. Please enjoy Kimberly Quinlan.

00:03:28 Speaker_04
Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of Monopoly?

00:03:37 Speaker_04
Introducing The Best Idea Yet, a brand new podcast about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with. Listen to The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:04:07 Speaker_06
This is kind of a newer look for you.

00:04:09 Speaker_09
A polo shirt.

00:04:10 Speaker_06
Pink polo.

00:04:11 Speaker_09
Yeah.

00:04:12 Speaker_06
Matching socks, I see. No socks, striped gray. Okay, everyone's accounted for.

00:04:18 Speaker_08
Outfits have been checked.

00:04:19 Speaker_06
We're gonna take a test today. Yeah. Which I'm so excited about. Me too. Did Monty already tell you we like to do these in the fact check?

00:04:25 Speaker_09
I know, yeah. And she was saying when we took blood and stuff that that was fun, so.

00:04:29 Speaker_06
We've done like the personality test. We've done the Enneagram.

00:04:32 Speaker_09
Yeah, yes.

00:04:33 Speaker_06
We've done the sorting hat for Potter.

00:04:36 Speaker_08
Hogwarts.

00:04:37 Speaker_06
Have you done the sorting hat?

00:04:38 Speaker_08
Only at the Warner Brothers.

00:04:42 Speaker_06
Oh, you put the hat on the tour. What were you assigned?

00:04:45 Speaker_08
I think I would say, Oh, my son's gonna be so mad. Actually, I don't remember. Oh, my God. Then you're probably a Hufflepuff.

00:04:55 Speaker_09
I'm just kidding. A lot of people get really mad when I do that. So now I think it's funny.

00:04:59 Speaker_08
You have to forgive me because I've started the Harry Potter thing in the last month, maybe. With your child?

00:05:04 Speaker_06
Yes. You have a son?

00:05:05 Speaker_08
I do.

00:05:06 Speaker_06
How old?

00:05:06 Speaker_08
He's nine.

00:05:07 Speaker_06
Oh, he's nine. We have a nine-year-old too.

00:05:09 Speaker_08
He's late for the Harry Potter game, but we're in it now. That feels right. Yeah, that's a good age.

00:05:14 Speaker_06
Our nine-year-old's already done it, but that's only because we have an 11-year-old.

00:05:16 Speaker_08
Yeah, well I have a 13 year old and she, no.

00:05:19 Speaker_06
Didn't care? No. How about Swift?

00:05:21 Speaker_08
Oh yeah, we just started that. Only recently did we start that too.

00:05:25 Speaker_06
Because if she didn't get drawn into Potter or Taylor Swift, now I'm thinking this should be on the DSM.

00:05:32 Speaker_08
Yeah.

00:05:32 Speaker_06
This must be some kind of pathology.

00:05:34 Speaker_08
Yeah, I was just telling how difficult it is to be a parent or a therapist.

00:05:37 Speaker_06
Yeah, does it make it harder or easier? So much harder. You think so? Tell me why.

00:05:41 Speaker_08
Well, number one, parenting is hard, period.

00:05:43 Speaker_06
Yeah, it's no joke.

00:05:44 Speaker_08
I was saying, no one told me it was going to be this hard. And I'm a therapist. I think it's a little harder because you have read the DSM. And I think it's also harder because I feel that internal pressure that I'm supposed to raise.

00:06:01 Speaker_08
These totally emotionally regulated.

00:06:03 Speaker_06
It would reflect badly on you if you turned out some maladaptive.

00:06:06 Speaker_08
What kind of therapist can't create perfect children? Yeah. There's no such thing.

00:06:11 Speaker_06
And there's already so you've got like triple whammy pressure because you've got just being a mom. So the requirements that you're perfect are already through the roof. Yeah, and then you're supposed to have some upper hand with your knowledge set.

00:06:22 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:06:23 Speaker_06
Yeah, I get that because I feel myself doing it. You know, they'll exhibit a behavior for 35 seconds. You know, like, oh, geez, I think they're a narcissist. Oh, geez, I think they have a borderline personality disorder. Oh, no.

00:06:39 Speaker_06
I do that as a non-therapist, but I'm pretty good at going like bullshit.

00:06:43 Speaker_08
Oh, yeah. Well, I think that's the beauty is if you're really clued into it, you get to just let them be humans. But I think that is what makes it hard because you're like, it's their journey. They get to do it.

00:06:53 Speaker_08
That's where I think I have to pump the brakes.

00:06:55 Speaker_06
And divorcing or parsing out your own ego and identity in it is so complicated because we're all inclined to project onto strangers. Now you add in, well, this person is half me, so I have half a right to actually project.

00:07:12 Speaker_06
You really get caught in that.

00:07:14 Speaker_08
For sure. It's a constant self-check, but also one of the coolest growth opportunities of my life.

00:07:21 Speaker_06
thousand percent because you have to then recognize, oh, right, this is my issue. And then you go, well, we don't really have our arms fully around this issue, do we? Because we're projecting this onto a little person.

00:07:33 Speaker_08
And the story isn't finished yet.

00:07:34 Speaker_06
OK, so let's start with our introduction, because I think it's kind of fun because I just kind of want to applaud your character and your integrity, which is we had gotten some criticism for how we were talking about OCD.

00:07:44 Speaker_06
And then so I just kind of did a perfunctory search of who's popular in the space, and I came up with your name, and then I reached out to you on Instagram, and I invited you on to talk about OCD, and you were like, yeah, that sounds great.

00:07:56 Speaker_06
And then at some point, I guess you probably discovered that Allegra was one of the critical voices, turned over your opportunity to be here to her.

00:08:05 Speaker_08
Yeah, and she did a great job. She sure did. She needed to do that. She's got such life experience, so she nailed it.

00:08:13 Speaker_06
Yeah, it was awesome. I'm really happy we just had an expert on them. I'm really happy it was her.

00:08:18 Speaker_06
And so I just think it's really cool that, I mean, I'm not presuming you wanted to be on the show so bad, but I know if Jimmy Fallon called me to be on and I was like, you know, I think John Krasinski is probably better as a guest for you. Yeah.

00:08:29 Speaker_06
I just think that shows some integrity.

00:08:31 Speaker_08
Well, I love Allegra and she does a lot of advocacy work. And so we spoke about it and yeah, it was absolutely the right thing. I truly believe my turn will happen when it's right. And here I am.

00:08:42 Speaker_06
Yeah. And so you're a marriage and family therapist, but additionally, you do have expertise in other areas as well. Yes. OCD being one of them.

00:08:51 Speaker_08
Anxiety disorders.

00:08:52 Speaker_06
Anxiety disorders.

00:08:53 Speaker_08
The overarching work that I do is around self-compassion. It's woven into everything I do. So I see very severe anxiety disorders, but all of my personal work and the work I want to put out into the world is around that.

00:09:07 Speaker_06
Okay. And so I'm also going to exploit you and make you talk about eating disorders a bit, because I would say tied with OCD, we get a lot of people requesting we have an eating disorder.

00:09:15 Speaker_08
Well, I had an eating disorder. I'm your ghost.

00:09:17 Speaker_06
Oh, okay. Wonderful. So I would love to dip into that a little bit as well.

00:09:21 Speaker_09
When are we taking the test? Now or later?

00:09:23 Speaker_06
Yeah, let's do that. Would you like to start with that?

00:09:25 Speaker_09
Well, sure. I can do anything.

00:09:27 Speaker_08
I think we should jump into the test.

00:09:28 Speaker_06
It would be fun to take the test.

00:09:29 Speaker_08
Let me sort of preface this. There are two ways in which we can capture someone's degree of self-compassion.

00:09:37 Speaker_08
We could just talk about it and sort of hear your inner thinking, and I could make a subjective assumption, or I can do what we're going to do today, which is called the self-compassion scale. We're doing the short form. The long form is 24.

00:09:49 Speaker_08
We're doing the 12. But research has shown that the 12 question is as effective as the 24, so we're golden. OK, great. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask you both questions. You're going to give me a number out of one to five.

00:10:03 Speaker_08
One is almost never and five is almost always. And I'll document it and then I'll just need like three minutes to calculate.

00:10:10 Speaker_06
You can have 30. She has a calculator.

00:10:12 Speaker_08
Oh my goodness. On her phone? Look at this. It's my kids. Look how cute it is. All right. What I would encourage you to do is don't overthink this.

00:10:21 Speaker_06
Oh, good luck.

00:10:22 Speaker_08
This is not a diagnosis. And we're today talking about self-compassion, which is around treating yourself kindly. We're not here to beat yourself up about how much you beat yourself up. Yeah, we'd love to do that. This is a non-judgment zone.

00:10:36 Speaker_06
You're taking away our hobby.

00:10:38 Speaker_08
I know. All right. So here's question number one. When I fail at something important to me, I become consumed by feelings of inadequacy. So DAX five being almost always and one being almost never.

00:10:58 Speaker_06
Okay, great. So what we never have is the person administering the questions present.

00:11:04 Speaker_09
Yeah.

00:11:04 Speaker_06
Because here's, I think, the first mental hurdle for me.

00:11:08 Speaker_08
After you say, don't overthink.

00:11:10 Speaker_06
Historically or today?

00:11:12 Speaker_08
I would prefer you give me sort of a range in the last month.

00:11:16 Speaker_06
Okay.

00:11:17 Speaker_08
And if you prefer to read things, my husband is a reader of questions.

00:11:20 Speaker_06
I'm dyslexic, so this is ideal for me. Okay. Don't overthink it, but it's just funny because I've changed a lot over time. Yeah.

00:11:26 Speaker_08
Oh no, this is not a life scale. So this is more like within the last week to month, how you doing?

00:11:31 Speaker_06
Okay, great. So one is never five as always?

00:11:34 Speaker_08
Five is almost always and almost never is one. When I fail at something important to me, I become consumed by feelings of inadequacy.

00:11:41 Speaker_06
You wanna go first, ladies first?

00:11:43 Speaker_08
Yeah, you go.

00:11:44 Speaker_06
Okay. Tall people first. I'm gonna go three. Five. Okay.

00:11:49 Speaker_08
Number two. I try to be understanding and patient towards those aspects of my personality I don't like. One is almost never, five is almost always.

00:12:00 Speaker_06
One. Two. This test has already made me start bleeding. Rob, can we see that?

00:12:05 Speaker_09
What do you mean?

00:12:06 Speaker_06
I just randomly started bleeding.

00:12:08 Speaker_09
Oh, gosh.

00:12:09 Speaker_06
I cut my finger cutting my hair last night. I've never actually had that happen before. But I took the band-aid off and it was fine and now it just starts.

00:12:15 Speaker_08
There's no question for that one. All right, number three. When something painful happens, I try to take a balanced view of the situation.

00:12:25 Speaker_06
Four.

00:12:26 Speaker_09
Try. Try means, try is a good word.

00:12:29 Speaker_06
Also situations operative.

00:12:31 Speaker_08
Four. Okay. Number four. When I'm feeling down, I tend to feel like most other people are probably happier than I am. One.

00:12:40 Speaker_06
That's almost never. Yeah, I don't think that. Same, same. Yeah.

00:12:43 Speaker_08
Okay. I try to see my failings as a part of the human condition.

00:12:48 Speaker_06
Try to. Do I try to or do I?

00:12:52 Speaker_09
Your own personal failings, not everyone.

00:12:54 Speaker_06
No, I'm going to go, I never do that. Whatever that is.

00:12:57 Speaker_09
One.

00:12:57 Speaker_06
Yeah. I'm a piece of shit. And here it is again.

00:13:00 Speaker_08
Two. Okay. When I'm going through a very hard time, I give myself the caring and tenderness I need.

00:13:07 Speaker_06
One.

00:13:08 Speaker_08
Three. We're halfway.

00:13:09 Speaker_06
But hold on, I'm loving this.

00:13:11 Speaker_08
Me too.

00:13:12 Speaker_06
Yeah. They have zero anxiety. I can bring out the 24 if you need me to.

00:13:15 Speaker_08
Oh my God.

00:13:16 Speaker_06
We want the 48 pack.

00:13:19 Speaker_08
Okay. When something upsets me, I try to keep my emotions in balance. God, try it. Five. Four. When I fail at something that's important to me, I tend to feel alone in my failure. Five.

00:13:33 Speaker_08
When I'm feeling down, I tend to obsess and fixate on everything that's wrong.

00:13:39 Speaker_09
Yeah, five.

00:13:40 Speaker_08
When I feel inadequate in some way, I tend to remind myself that feelings of inadequacy are shared by most people. One.

00:13:48 Speaker_05
Two.

00:13:49 Speaker_08
I'm disapproving and judgmental about my own flaws and inadequacies. Five.

00:13:55 Speaker_09
Yeah, five.

00:13:56 Speaker_08
I'm intolerant and impatient towards those aspects of my personality I don't like.

00:14:01 Speaker_06
I'm tolerant or intolerant?

00:14:03 Speaker_08
Intolerant and impatient.

00:14:05 Speaker_06
Yeah. Four.

00:14:07 Speaker_08
Yeah. Four.

00:14:07 Speaker_06
I just thought of a very funny thing. What if like every time one of us went first, the other one changed it. I go three and you go three, I go two.

00:14:18 Speaker_09
Actually, I'm more too. It also is fun when we do, because normally we're doing you or me.

00:14:24 Speaker_06
Yeah, and you're usually administering it.

00:14:26 Speaker_09
Yeah, I like to administer.

00:14:28 Speaker_06
Yeah, she's an administrator at heart.

00:14:29 Speaker_09
Did you try to evaluate mine too? Sure. Did you think I was right?

00:14:34 Speaker_06
Well, what's fun is I was realizing, as well as I know you, there are some things I don't know about you. Sure. Were you thinking that at all? Or you were like, all right, nailed everyone?

00:14:42 Speaker_05
Yours seemed right.

00:14:43 Speaker_06
Yeah, yours seemed right, but there were a couple where it was like, I wouldn't have had a guess. Like, are other people having a great time around me? Right. I don't really know how you process that. Yeah. I assume everyone's miserable in general.

00:14:57 Speaker_09
Yeah, I just don't think about the way other people are feeling when I'm doing anything, really. Other people in the world that aren't a part of it.

00:15:06 Speaker_06
Right.

00:15:07 Speaker_08
Do you have any questions before I rate your scales?

00:15:10 Speaker_06
I know good students have questions, so I'm trying to think of one, but I don't have one.

00:15:14 Speaker_08
No, we're good. All right, let's do this. OK. How do you guys think you went? Let's hear more about the metric.

00:15:20 Speaker_06
Or maybe the spectrum. Yeah.

00:15:21 Speaker_08
So it's actually out of 1 to 5, just like you scaled. Someone who measures low in self-compassion is between 1 and 2.49. Someone who is moderate is 2.5 to 3.5. and someone who is high in self-compassion is 3.51 to five.

00:15:40 Speaker_06
I would just like to say, I think I'm not very compassionate to myself.

00:15:44 Speaker_08
I think I'm moderate. So both of you actually came out with exactly the same score. Maybe that's why this works. But in different areas. So there are six components that we break this down to. So you both got the response for today.

00:15:59 Speaker_08
It could be different, but right now you're at 2.25 each, which puts you both in the low category. In the upper low. Okay.

00:16:06 Speaker_02
Okay.

00:16:07 Speaker_08
Cusp. Again, this is just for reflection and sort of to see, hmm, that's interesting. Let's take a look at why. So if we looked at self-kindness, because one of the subscales here is self-kindness, how kind you are to yourself.

00:16:22 Speaker_08
Monica, you actually were in the moderate. Okay. But Dax, you were in the low. Okay.

00:16:26 Speaker_06
Well, congratulations. Thanks.

00:16:27 Speaker_08
Yeah. So that's how kind you are to yourself in the face of adversity. We're not talking about how kind you are when you kick butt, right? It's not about that. It's sort of more about how do you sit by your side when things go to shit?

00:16:42 Speaker_08
So the second is self-judgment. How much do you judge yourself for the highs and the lows of life? You both got 1.5. Okay. So we really nailed that one. Which is low. The cool thing about all this is once you know, then you know what to work on.

00:16:57 Speaker_08
Then you know where you might first be like, okay, I'm going to work on this one little area, or you might choose not to. Some people are like, I'm cool. I'm good just to know it and I'm good to go. The next one is the common humanity.

00:17:08 Speaker_08
And that's what you guys were talking about before. When you're suffering, how do you see yourself as this being a normal part of the human condition? How do you see that it's a human thing to suffer? It's a human thing to go through hard things.

00:17:20 Speaker_08
All humans fail. Humans mess up some days. That's what common humanity is around. And you both got 1.5. OK. OK. Yeah. I'm not seeing how we're going to get up to two. This is where you go well. The next step is isolation.

00:17:36 Speaker_08
So when things are hard, how much do you isolate? How do you think it's just you're the only one and that no one else is having this problem that you're the only quote unquote loser in the area? You both did really well. You're in moderate there.

00:17:48 Speaker_08
So here we go, we're on the upswing. The next part is mindfulness, and you both scored very well in mindfulness. That's being aware of your suffering, being in touch with, oh, I'm having a hard time. How am I doing? What's going on?

00:18:01 Speaker_08
So Dax, you got 4.5 and Monica, you got 4.

00:18:05 Speaker_02
Wow.

00:18:05 Speaker_08
This is the one I really love the most. And I find this is one of the ones that can really help us to understand someone.

00:18:12 Speaker_08
The last part is over-identification, which is when you're going through something difficult, how much do you make it about yourself? How do you put it on yourself as an identity? Like if you make a mistake that you're someone who's a total loser.

00:18:26 Speaker_02
Flawed, broken.

00:18:27 Speaker_08
Yeah, it's very shame related. And so this one, Dax, you got two and Monica, you got one for that one. Yeah, that tracks.

00:18:35 Speaker_09
I don't like making mistakes.

00:18:36 Speaker_08
So that's your results. We can also see both sides of this. You're very successful. Often people rely on a lot of these pieces to drive them into success. And sometimes it works.

00:18:49 Speaker_06
I'm so glad you're bringing this up. I would be interested in how many people have a similar story, which is without that, what would be the motivation, right?

00:18:57 Speaker_08
I see a lot of very, very successful people in the industry here in LA or very, very high in the tech field. They're at the top of their game and they have relied on a lot of the things that you guys were rating for that got them to the top.

00:19:13 Speaker_08
But at some point it starts to not work anymore and things start to break down around them or they're in relation with people where it's creating conflict.

00:19:22 Speaker_06
Or you start questioning, is it worth it?

00:19:25 Speaker_08
Yeah.

00:19:25 Speaker_06
Right. Great. I got all the cash and prizes and whistles and I'm not very happy. So it's like existential.

00:19:31 Speaker_08
Yeah. And it's a really hard experience, especially here in L.A. Everyone around you, when you're famous, everyone loves you, but you don't. That's a really conflicting place to live.

00:19:41 Speaker_08
And so often when people come to me, they're usually having panic attacks, got some other anxiety disorder or a mood disorder like depression. And then we start to look at these things served you in some pretty tricky situations.

00:19:55 Speaker_08
And can we come up with some alternative solutions that will still keep you in the game, but don't give you those consequences?

00:20:02 Speaker_06
I have long thought about, could I get to that same goal without the same catalyst? And it's such a leap of faith.

00:20:10 Speaker_08
Well, here's the thing is research shows that self-criticism and self-judgment, which you guys do a lot of, it seems, actually has higher rates of procrastination.

00:20:23 Speaker_08
reduced levels of motivation, higher rates of burnout, end up creating less productivity. So it makes sense. You would be like, oh, you piece of shit. You've got to do this. Makes you sit down. So you go, OK, it must be working. I'll keep going.

00:20:38 Speaker_08
But with too much use of that, it actually creates all these negative consequences, which then we go, well, it must be me. It's me that I'm not getting my book written. I've written a book, one of the hardest things I've ever done in my entire career.

00:20:51 Speaker_06
That's Heller. Congratulations.

00:20:52 Speaker_08
in my field, not like a New York Times bestseller, but in my field, yes. But you beat yourself up. So then when you're beating yourself up, you start to procrastinate and you start to feel like crap and you don't want to write.

00:21:03 Speaker_08
And then you go, well, I'm a piece of shit because I can't write. And then it's a cycle. We've got to dispel the myths of these behaviors and see that there's another way.

00:21:17 Speaker_08
Well, it's simply treating yourself like you would treat a loved one if they were in that situation.

00:21:25 Speaker_06
I'm glad you're saying that.

00:21:26 Speaker_06
The only window into my awareness of my self abuse and flagellation is simply being an AA, which is, it occurred to me at one point, I have listened to, at this point, thousands of men share a character defect that they have, or even an action that came out of that character defect.

00:21:43 Speaker_06
And I go like, yeah, you were scared and you stole. Yeah, you blank and you cheated. Yes. And you punch somebody.

00:21:50 Speaker_06
Like I can listen to anyone else's thing and have total understanding and compassion and go like, yeah, that was a situation that's happened. But if I'm guilty of the same thing, that's just not what I think.

00:22:00 Speaker_06
But luckily I have had the experience of regularly hearing people say stuff that I also suffer from and having total acceptance.

00:22:07 Speaker_08
And when you said that to your friend, he didn't get caught up in shame. He felt a sense of relief of like, I'm not alone. Dax can see the good in me.

00:22:16 Speaker_06
I'm not being excommunicated from.

00:22:18 Speaker_08
And therefore he is more likely to go and do good things for himself. And it's the same for us. Now, the thing to remember here is it's easier said than done.

00:22:26 Speaker_08
If you've beaten yourself up for your whole life, talking to yourself like your best friend might feel like a massive leap. Some people go, gross, I don't want to talk to myself. That is not how I talk to myself.

00:22:37 Speaker_08
But what we can then start to think of is what would feel good to you?

00:22:41 Speaker_09
I guess for me, the fear is if I'm not hard on myself, then I'm not being reflective. You know what I mean?

00:22:48 Speaker_06
I know exactly what you're saying. Cause as you were saying it, I was thinking why I can say that to another person, not me, which is to do that to me would be like granting permission for it to continue.

00:22:58 Speaker_06
Oh, I guess this isn't a big deal for not beating ourselves up over it. I get is a paradox because I don't think the stranger needs more abuse. They've clearly given themselves enough.

00:23:07 Speaker_08
Yeah, this is why I love talking about this. This exact conundrum. Because here's the thing. Self-compassion is not letting yourself off the hook. I treat anxiety disorders. My job is to help people face their worst fear.

00:23:22 Speaker_08
You have panic disorder and you don't want to fly an airplane, my job is to get you on an airplane. Whether I fly with you or you do it alone, that's my job. If you're afraid of needles, my job is to get you to go and have needles.

00:23:34 Speaker_08
The work here is that not reflecting isn't an act of kindness. The act of kindness is the reflection, but doing it in a way that is kind. You can still do the hard thing, but do it kindly.

00:23:48 Speaker_06
when I play soccer or volleyball or anything with my oldest daughter. Every time she makes a mistake, sorry. And I go, love, you don't have to say sorry. You haven't done anything to me. You just know now to do it differently.

00:24:00 Speaker_06
She can practice and doesn't have to feel guilty when she's failing.

00:24:03 Speaker_08
No, and that is the work. Let's say we don't do something well. Let's say I totally screw this up today.

00:24:09 Speaker_06
Fingers crossed, that would be so exciting.

00:24:11 Speaker_08
The self-compassionate act would be to reflect. How did it go? What went well? What didn't go well? What could I have done differently?

00:24:18 Speaker_08
We still would reflect, but we would do it from a place of, it's okay that we make mistakes and what can we learn from this? That's the piece.

00:24:26 Speaker_06
Depersonalizing it, I imagine, would be helpful, which is like, an interview needs this. Did I have my information? Did I have blank? Not, am I a lazy piece of shit? Yeah.

00:24:36 Speaker_09
But then it gets into like, did they like me? It gets very muddy there. Cause that's not anything that you have any control over. Right.

00:24:43 Speaker_08
But a kind act is to give permission to people to think what they like to think. I fully give you permission to have your thoughts about me. That's okay.

00:24:52 Speaker_08
And then my responsibility, all that I have control over is how I tend to those emotions I have to feel. So self-compassion also isn't like happy feelings all day long and it's unicorns and it's roses.

00:25:05 Speaker_08
It's also going, okay, they may or may not have liked me. Maybe you straight up said, I don't like you, Kimberly.

00:25:11 Speaker_11
Yeah.

00:25:11 Speaker_08
And I get to have my feelings, you get to have yours, and my job is to be gentle with the feelings I have about you not liking me.

00:25:19 Speaker_08
Then everyone gets to have their experience and I'm not afraid of any emotion because I've had them all and they're all safe.

00:25:26 Speaker_06
OK, I have a very specific thing that was just recent and I want to know if this was adaptive or maladaptive. So there was a long, long phase in my life where I would go on a talk show and I want to be great.

00:25:36 Speaker_06
And then on my ride home, if I didn't hit whatever mark, you know, I would spin out about that and I'd be very upset. I just did a week of press in New York. By the way, I'm going to add my wife is now left to go do a week of press.

00:25:48 Speaker_06
And I was like sharing with her. I don't know if this is compartmentalization or compassion. I was like, yeah, I'm going to go do these shows. They're going to be what they're going to be. I'm really not even going to know about it.

00:25:58 Speaker_06
If they're terrible, I likely won't even see anyone that saw it. I just like unplugged from the results of it. I'm like, I'm just going to go do it. And it doesn't matter. I'm still a dad. You know, I still have a great business. My life is totally fine.

00:26:12 Speaker_06
Whether I shit the bed on those or not. I didn't really do any post-game evaluation after it, and it felt great. And so I don't know if I am using the tools you're talking about or if I just decided to ignore the results.

00:26:28 Speaker_08
You here would rate high in all of those self-kindness. You reduce the self-judgment. There was a common humanity there of like, humans get to make mistakes. They get to just show up and be themselves. That's common humanity.

00:26:40 Speaker_08
Like we're all in this together. Somebody else is sitting across from you, interviewing you, also getting to be a human being that has good and bad days. You didn't isolate yourself. You talked to your partner about it.

00:26:51 Speaker_08
and you normalize, this is a big deal, you were mindful, you didn't over identify that this means that I'm a good person or a bad person, you nailed it.

00:27:00 Speaker_06
Okay, okay, okay, good.

00:27:02 Speaker_08
More of that.

00:27:02 Speaker_06
In the wake of that, I was like, God, you could really probably apply that to everything.

00:27:07 Speaker_08
I would. You're in this great opportunity where you're like, I have all the good things. For those who are listening and they don't have all the good things, and it is a big deal, I would still use the same skills.

00:27:17 Speaker_08
I actually had to practice this this morning because you guys are incredible. This is a big deal, but me not using the skills that we're talking about today is only going to make me feel bad about this.

00:27:29 Speaker_08
So for my experience of today, it can be paradoxical in that this is a big deal and I still get to do the skills and be kind and let it be and allow it to be imperfect. Those two opposing things can happen at the same time.

00:27:45 Speaker_06
Well, you're now bringing up something that's probably quite interesting, which is I think most of us tend to do this work post something. And it sounds like you did it preemptively.

00:27:55 Speaker_08
I'm lucky I've studied this for a long time. And I'm not always great at it either. But yes, the work that I have people practice, particularly if you have a lot of anxiety, I always kind of talk about it like a sandwich.

00:28:08 Speaker_08
I call it a compassion sandwich, which I know is not that cool. But the meat of the work is facing your fears, but the bread is the before and after of compassion when you face those fears.

00:28:19 Speaker_08
So you be gentle and you use these skills before, you practice compassion during, and then afterwards, a big piece of this work is celebrating that you did a hard thing.

00:28:29 Speaker_06
Ah, yeah, yeah. Forget how you did. You just did a hard thing.

00:28:32 Speaker_08
You did a hard thing at the end of the day. And then you can say, what did I learn? What didn't go well? What did, what would I do differently?

00:28:39 Speaker_08
But not from a place of like, you idiot, but more of like, okay, interesting note to self with more reps of this, I'll get better.

00:28:48 Speaker_06
Well, now there's a part of having kids that's really helpful and wonderful, right? Because when you're watching your own children, I keep trying to tell them this. What I'm impressed by is not whether you were good or bad in the play.

00:28:58 Speaker_06
I'm so blown away you put yourself out there. You know what you're proud of with your kids. And it's I don't give a shit if they're number one at anything. I'm just blown away when they put themselves out there.

00:29:08 Speaker_08
Yeah.

00:29:11 Speaker_01
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

00:29:18 Speaker_00
In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her.

00:29:33 Speaker_00
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00:29:47 Speaker_00
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00:30:00 Speaker_00
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00:30:11 Speaker_00
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00:30:16 Speaker_04
Hey, Armcherries, quick question for you. Have you ever stopped to wonder who came up with that bottle of sriracha sitting in your fridge? Or why almost every house in America has a game of Monopoly stashed away somewhere? Well, this is Nick.

00:30:28 Speaker_04
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00:30:40 Speaker_04
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00:31:01 Speaker_04
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00:31:10 Speaker_04
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00:31:16 Speaker_03
What's up, guys? It's your girl, Keke, and my podcast is back with a new season. And let me tell you, it's too good. And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, OK?

00:31:25 Speaker_03
Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation. And I don't mean just friends. I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox. The list goes on. And now I have my own YouTube channel. So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

00:31:38 Speaker_03
This is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch full episodes on YouTube, and you can listen to Baby, This is Geeky Palmer early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery. And, uh, where are my headphones?

00:31:50 Speaker_03
Because, uh, it's time to get into it. Holler at your girl!

00:32:01 Speaker_06
If you don't feel like it's too personal, I would love to know in practice, what does your pre-interview look like? Do you have mantras? Do you write anything? Is it meditation? Is it too private to you?

00:32:14 Speaker_08
No, I'm an open book. There's nothing I don't talk about. For me, it's in Australia, we call it a seesaw. I think America, you call it a teeter-totter. I think we do both. It's a seesaw of my purpose. My motto for life is to love as hard as I can.

00:32:30 Speaker_08
That's my whole goal in life. So I teeter totter between, I'm just going to love on you guys and pour love into you. And then on the other side, also pour love into me. So it's this sort of like, I hope that I get to love on you guys.

00:32:45 Speaker_08
And then maybe someone listening will feel a sense of, aha, that would be great. And then like you talked about before, where's the anxiety in my body? Okay. It's in my chest. All right, it's okay that it's there. It's not dangerous.

00:32:57 Speaker_08
I'm gonna let it be there. It may or may not interrupt your session with them, but that's okay. It is a lot of talking to myself, but it's more, I always think of it like, have you ever held a baby chicken?

00:33:09 Speaker_06
Boy. I don't think so. I don't think so.

00:33:11 Speaker_08
Very fragile. Oh, you got it. You haven't lived until you've held a baby.

00:33:14 Speaker_06
Oh my God, this is great advice. Get your hands on a baby chicken. That's it. That's all I have to say. Unexpected.

00:33:19 Speaker_08
It's just their bones are so small. Well, that's the thing. Yeah. It's like holding yourself with a baby chicken. You wouldn't grab them and crush them because they're fragile. They're important. They matter. You wouldn't want to hurt them.

00:33:31 Speaker_08
And so it's a little bit of like, I'm the baby chicken. It's scary. This is a scary thing. But it's a lot of that teeter-tottering.

00:33:38 Speaker_06
Okay, so since your main thrust is self-compassion, do you see it as somewhat of a universal tool for all these many different, they're called disorders, right? I'm not being pejorative by saying disorders, yeah?

00:33:53 Speaker_06
Do you see that as a thread that kind of links all these things? Because I was reading an LA Times article that you were a part of, which was- Orthorexia.

00:34:01 Speaker_06
Orthorexia, one of the women who suffered from it, I found fascinating that she started as OCD as a child. So ding, ding, ding me, then went into addiction and then got sober and then in sobriety became orthorexic.

00:34:16 Speaker_08
Which is? That's a subtype of an eating disorder. It's sort of an obsession with the purity of food.

00:34:23 Speaker_06
Or clean food.

00:34:24 Speaker_08
The cleanliness of food or the contamination of food. So it's about eliminating food groups, having it being all pure or all organic, maybe spending a lot of time with preoccupation on preparing the foods or having it be as uncooked as possible.

00:34:41 Speaker_06
Raw, non-GMO, paleo, any one of these very popular.

00:34:46 Speaker_08
Sugar free, dairy free. It looks different for each person, but that's what orthorexia is. It's also now better diagnosed under what we call avoidant and restrictive food intake disorder. It's big.

00:34:59 Speaker_08
Even here in L.A., it's big because wherever there's a culture where there's sort of like a morality around food, like it's a good food or a bad food or clean or it's not clean, that's where it can get really out of control.

00:35:10 Speaker_06
Yeah, I've heard different religion professors talk about this as falling so beautifully into a religion, because it does have this underlying good, evil, bad, impure, pure.

00:35:22 Speaker_06
The woman in the article found herself crying uncontrollably in the produce section of the grocery store debating between chard and kale.

00:35:33 Speaker_02
Oh, wow.

00:35:34 Speaker_06
Which one was more pure? What should she be getting? And so you think of that taken to its nth degree. Whereas I guess like all addictions or disorders, it's such a spectrum. I'm on this spectrum. Like I relate to this.

00:35:48 Speaker_06
I don't see it having caused any wreckage yet in my life. And I'm certainly not in the grocery store crying yet and I'm not isolated from it, but I can relate to the evaluation.

00:35:58 Speaker_08
Yeah, me too.

00:36:00 Speaker_06
Okay. Is that just coincidental that she was OCD then addict?

00:36:05 Speaker_08
They're very related. Eating disorders and OCD have a very big crossover. Some people even now are sort of speculating that they're very much the same thing. I had an eating disorder. I treat obsessive compulsive disorder.

00:36:19 Speaker_08
I always felt like my eating disorder was a form of OCD. It looked and felt exactly like my clients in that there was an obsession and a fear that was intolerable. And it was so overwhelming that I had to engage in these very repetitive

00:36:35 Speaker_08
constrictive, controlling behaviors to reduce or eliminate that discomfort. And then I got stuck in a cycle. So, okay, that worked. I tend to manage my anxiety with that. I'll just do more of that. And all of a sudden you've eliminated food groups.

00:36:48 Speaker_08
You're malnourished. Everybody in your family is worried about you. You haven't got the energy to function. It can ruin your life.

00:36:56 Speaker_06
I have to imagine it leads to isolation as well, the same way addiction does. Well, you're not going out to meet anyone for dinner at this point. You're not having anyone over for dinner.

00:37:04 Speaker_06
You can't go to someone's house for dinner and you're by yourself eating your egg whites and feta. That's my current thing. Egg white, feta and elk.

00:37:14 Speaker_09
The elk piece is so disturbing. I know why that one's triggering. Tell me.

00:37:20 Speaker_06
Is it because Joe Rogan eats a lot of elk?

00:37:22 Speaker_09
Oh, no, I didn't know that.

00:37:23 Speaker_06
Oh, there is a mildly political aspect to the diet stuff, which is fascinating.

00:37:28 Speaker_08
Is it like ground?

00:37:29 Speaker_06
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of a magic. Here we go. You ready? It's magic and pure. It's super, super high protein and low fat, but it doesn't taste low fat. It's got a robust taste, yet it's insane amount of protein.

00:37:39 Speaker_08
Like lamb, maybe. Yeah.

00:37:41 Speaker_06
Love lamb too. Bison, you know, anything really high, high protein and kind of low fat that tastes good. I love.

00:37:48 Speaker_09
I guess to me, from the outside, because yeah, Dax eats very specifically, and he has psoriatic arthritis, so there's a reason for how it started, but I do think it's gotten a little... So that's in the article.

00:38:01 Speaker_06
A lot of people that have this clean, pure diet, to explain it to others and get the heat off of them, they'll claim to have a bunch of allergies they don't have.

00:38:10 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:38:11 Speaker_06
So if you had read that, you might go like, Jesus Christ, is this psoriatic arthritis thing bullshit? Right, yeah.

00:38:18 Speaker_08
Is this you selling us that you don't have that condition?

00:38:20 Speaker_06
No, I thousand percent had it. I've had surgeries. I guess I could have gone that far. I've had like joints lock up and fuse and have to get them corrected. But it's like anything else.

00:38:29 Speaker_08
Yeah, it gets sneaky.

00:38:31 Speaker_06
It's very sneaky. Drinking works like the drug worked for a long, long time before it stopped working. And so even I can experience like, oh, wow, I did cut gluten out of my thing and I feel better.

00:38:40 Speaker_06
Oh, that was a good positive reward blueprint of the brain.

00:38:43 Speaker_08
Yeah. But to talk about that article, you asked about the addiction piece.

00:38:48 Speaker_08
I don't often see people, not that this isn't a case for some people, but not often do I see someone who is active in their addiction with orthorexia because they kind of bounce against each other.

00:38:59 Speaker_08
But post addiction recovery where they're like, okay, I'm going to clean up my life. I'm going to stop using. I'm also going to start eating.

00:39:07 Speaker_08
eating well, I'm going to start exercising, and then, like you're talking about, then it gets a little slippery into, well, this is another way in which I can control my life, and I can feel powerful, and I can manage my emotions by being preoccupied on this thing.

00:39:21 Speaker_08
I see that much more than I would with an active addiction.

00:39:25 Speaker_06
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the word regulation. Like you figured out another way to regulate your internal state with something external, which is always kind of destined for implosion at some point, I suppose.

00:39:34 Speaker_06
But and I think this is a bit self-compassionate of myself. So like I accept I'm an addict. That is how this boy operates. If I get a good result from something, I will repeat it until it's dead. I've accepted that's who I am.

00:39:48 Speaker_06
And so instead of me trying to fight that that's who I am, I just have to aim this crazy laser beam at things that don't really create wreckage for me.

00:39:57 Speaker_06
So yes, on the outside, you could go, if you look at how I exercise and eat, right, there's clearly something going on there. I would agree. But for me, it's like, it hasn't led to secrecy, shame, isolation. My family doesn't care. My friends don't care.

00:40:12 Speaker_06
There's no downside to it. So like, how do you feel in general about embracing your this way and just trying to figure out an outlet for that, that doesn't lead to the shame and the guilt?

00:40:23 Speaker_08
The most common and best self-compassion question is, does this help the long-term me? Is this good for me? Is this what I need to be able to make the next step?

00:40:33 Speaker_08
Whatever that looks like, the next step today or the next step in 10 years, whatever that might be. So if it's working for you. and it's working for your relationships and it's not causing you distress, it's effective. And if it's effective, go for it.

00:40:45 Speaker_08
What's right for one person might not be right for the other person. I always love watching the Olympics and being like, what does that person think versus what does this person think? Because their self-talk is going to be different.

00:40:57 Speaker_08
And what works for one person might not work for the other. And so everyone gets to pick. You see, a lot of athletes have a lot of neuroses. a lot of compulsions and routines and superstitions. And again, we would say it's working for them.

00:41:12 Speaker_08
Who am I to tell somebody what's right or wrong for them? Is it working for them in their goal or is it working against them? And that's the question.

00:41:20 Speaker_06
And yeah, and are they miserable in the pursuit of this or are they happy?

00:41:24 Speaker_08
Some of them are. I've heard interviews where they'll say, I don't even like this sport. This is the goal I set for myself and I'll do whatever I have to and then I'll reassess.

00:41:35 Speaker_08
And so I think that's where we all get to give them permission to do what they want. Doesn't mean it's healthy.

00:41:41 Speaker_02
Right.

00:41:42 Speaker_09
I have a question about eating disorders really quick before we get fully off of that. What are you supposed to do if you notice that in somebody else?

00:41:51 Speaker_08
We know for one thing that telling them to do something different probably doesn't work. Here's a question. If you had an eating disorder, what would you want them to say to you?

00:42:02 Speaker_09
Well, I guess the goal, if you're in that, is getting away with it would be my guess. So I think anyone saying anything would be a problem, probably.

00:42:12 Speaker_08
Well, all we can do is come from a place of loving kindness. So for me, it would be, hey, I'm noticing ABC. I'm noticing the bison or the elk.

00:42:24 Speaker_06
Because you're buying a lot of bison.

00:42:27 Speaker_08
I'm noticing this is happening. How is that working for you? Is there other things going on for you? How can I support you? Because that's where they're going to be receptive to your help. Whereas if I came in and was like,

00:42:40 Speaker_08
you're eating too much bison and I don't like it and I'm worried about you and it's getting compulsive and that's me assuming my ideas for what's right for you. No one wants to hear that.

00:42:49 Speaker_08
So it's asking, coming from a place of care and genuine interest in their wellness and having a conversation.

00:42:56 Speaker_06
I could hear it in just the way you were saying, I was almost waiting to hear you also say, like, how do you feel on this? You know, like, how's it going?

00:43:03 Speaker_08
Yeah. The thing about eating disorders, I had anorexia and my husband used to say, you know, I used to love when your body looked this way compared to this way. It meant nothing. Of course. It didn't even seep in one percent of my body.

00:43:18 Speaker_08
In my mind, I was like, that sounds terrifying. That's all I could think of is, oh, that's OK for you to think. But in my mind, I would be a complete disgusting person. You could have told me that all day.

00:43:29 Speaker_06
You're right, because if someone said to me, you look much better with boogers hanging out of your nose. I'm like, well, great. You're a one off. That's nuts. I know for sure that doesn't look good.

00:43:39 Speaker_06
And for you, it's as real as boogers in your nose that you would be X white.

00:43:43 Speaker_09
It's just not about anyone else. It is how you are viewing yourself. So you wouldn't even say like, it's a one-off. You'd just be like, I don't like it.

00:43:52 Speaker_06
It'd be easy to reject.

00:43:53 Speaker_08
Most often eating disorders are partially about your body, but also nothing to do with your body anyway. It's about how you feel, your identity. There's so many other components to it.

00:44:05 Speaker_08
In some cases, there were times where I'm like, yeah, probably I would look better, but that would require me to do things I'm not willing to do.

00:44:11 Speaker_06
You'd be unhappy doing the things.

00:44:13 Speaker_08
Yeah, I'd be terrified. It was horrible.

00:44:15 Speaker_06
The pop culture thing you hear a lot is that, yeah, eating disorders are about control. Are they anti-correlated to moments when you feel totally out of control?

00:44:25 Speaker_08
We don't know. Yes, that is very much a core theme in eating disorder recovery is your relationship with control.

00:44:32 Speaker_08
But there's so many other impactful pieces of it, whether you have BDD, body dysmorphic disorder, because if that's the case, that needs to be treated and looked at as well. Is there any trauma and abuse in your family?

00:44:43 Speaker_08
Your relationship with your own emotions and your body is a big piece. How you actually can be in your body is a big piece of it as well. Societal impact of people being praised for being thin their whole life.

00:44:56 Speaker_08
There's so many things that need to be looked at in eating disorder recovery.

00:45:01 Speaker_06
Okay, I have been defensive.

00:45:04 Speaker_06
I find that the eating disorder commenters, and I don't know what percentage they make up of the community of people with eating disorders who are engaged in the fight know they have an eating disorder and are in recovery, I would imagine.

00:45:16 Speaker_06
If we have someone on the show mention a diet or we did a show that was two different friends, one was 317, one was 225. They were racing to 270 for cash and prizes. We'll get lots of, you're perpetuating diet culture.

00:45:29 Speaker_06
The reason I'm defensive and angry by that very predictable common outcome is like, I'm an addict. I'm not on people's social media pages who are enjoying drinking and doing drugs in the way they do and saying you're promoting a disease.

00:45:44 Speaker_06
I have a disease. They don't. It's not their responsibility to be making sure they don't trigger my disease. Like that is all on me.

00:45:51 Speaker_06
So my issue is like all the people that are screaming that diet culture is being perpetuated when I just think there's no marketing campaign like the booze marketing campaign. But I'm not mad at those people. 70% of people are drinking fine.

00:46:04 Speaker_06
So help me understand why that's happening and how could I be more compassionate?

00:46:09 Speaker_08
I totally understand what you're saying, by the way. I think that the piece there, and I think it's often more placed on females, is there is a very heavy emphasis where women are told the way their body should look.

00:46:22 Speaker_08
And I think there's a rebellion against that. And I think that's what it is. Now, that doesn't mean I would go on and post on social media about it. I tend to prefer to advocate one-on-one than to advocate in the comment section.

00:46:35 Speaker_08
But I think that a lot of the time people are trying to advocate for the fact that when I was a teenager, I don't know how old you are, but being stick thin was really cool. Having no butt and no breasts were the thing you were going for.

00:46:49 Speaker_08
And I think people were really pissed off at that. Cause now, you know, bodies should be curvy and the Kardashians and that's the newer body thing. But back then, I think people are mad at the expectations that are put on people.

00:47:02 Speaker_08
And therefore they're expressing that on the internet.

00:47:05 Speaker_06
That's a key, the way you just phrased it. And I agree. That is what people are saying. And obviously we are motivated by our culture and our society, but put on you versus I put it on myself. I hear a lot of comments, we're going to get gendered.

00:47:19 Speaker_06
I've had this long standing opinion where it's like, women aren't responding to what men want. Women are responding to what women consume and want. And men are responding to what men consume and want. So like, I'm getting really muscly.

00:47:31 Speaker_06
If you pulled women, that's not even the desired state. But I'm a boy trying to be a man and I'm responding to whatever all the men are saying is most mentally.

00:47:39 Speaker_06
So like when you say stick thin was popular, I acknowledge that there's like the Kate Moss trajectory, but I don't believe that was driven by men. They're not buying fashion magazines. They don't even know these supermodels exist.

00:47:49 Speaker_06
That's not the industry. It's a female driven industry as there's a male driven supplement industry. And so this notion of we have to look this way to get a mate, I think it lacks a little responsibility.

00:48:00 Speaker_06
I think we got to look this way to be accepted by our group, which is female

00:48:04 Speaker_09
Well, all people. Yeah.

00:48:06 Speaker_06
Boys are doing boys.

00:48:07 Speaker_09
No, no, no. It's not even like, I need to look this way to get a mate. It's like, I need to look this way to be attractive in general. To be worthy. In this life and to be worthy and lovable. And not lovable necessarily from a partner just in the world.

00:48:21 Speaker_06
Sure.

00:48:22 Speaker_09
So it's not really about like, well, men want this and women want this. It's just society is telling us that we need to look this way to be accepted.

00:48:32 Speaker_08
And I think it depends on the person. There's a lot of people in the eating disorder community that aren't angry about it too. We hear different perspectives and the loud, the creaky squeaky wheel.

00:48:42 Speaker_08
But I think too, from my clients and what I do understand is there are people where they're set point is, set point is like where you naturally are when you're not on a diet, where your body lands.

00:48:54 Speaker_08
Their body isn't in that body and they're advocating for bodies being beautiful in whatever set point that they're in. And I think that is a huge piece we're talking about is celebrating bodies in any way we can.

00:49:09 Speaker_08
And I think it's also a part of recovery. Sometimes people in different stages of recovery become advocates. For someone who had an eating disorder, I don't talk about eating disorders that much in my advocacy, on my podcast, in my work.

00:49:21 Speaker_08
I'm at a different stage in my recovery to where I have this other mission. And I'm not saying that those people will move on from their mission. Maybe they're on it.

00:49:30 Speaker_08
But I know for me, there was a stage where I was really advocating and now it's not as important.

00:49:35 Speaker_06
I so relate to that. The first five years I was sober, I could have told you anybody in show business that was either sober or in an active addiction. And now I just don't know. But yeah, I was like, I need to know who was this and who was that.

00:49:47 Speaker_06
And a lot of people get an impulse in their first year of sobriety to write a book about it. You feel very motivated. I've just experienced this huge shift. So my next thing is I'm going to write a book about it.

00:49:55 Speaker_06
I'm going to proselytize and be vigilant about this.

00:49:58 Speaker_08
With any condition, once you've been through it and you've seen how much it's decimated your life, you're mad. And you're mad at whoever and wherever that could have stemmed from.

00:50:08 Speaker_08
You know, some people who aren't on the internet might be in therapy, like so mad at their mom or so mad at their dad. And that's where they're really focusing. So I think usually when people are mad, it's a response from how much suffering they had.

00:50:22 Speaker_06
You and I are now both in a very interesting position scientifically, which is these GLP-1 drugs are going to impact both of these things, addiction and eating disorders, in very interesting ways, potentially unforeseeable for a while.

00:50:36 Speaker_06
Let me just say anecdotally what I've noticed is a lot of people that I know that are on those who are normal, moderate drinkers stop drinking. Like they're just not even interested in it anymore. I'm like, well, that's very interesting.

00:50:47 Speaker_06
In our book of AA, the big book, it says science hasn't yet given us a cure, but which opens the door to maybe one day it will. And so that's just really interesting. It is. How is it impacting your line of work?

00:50:59 Speaker_08
Not a lot.

00:51:00 Speaker_06
It's not?

00:51:01 Speaker_08
No. I mean, there are some, of course, who take it, but again, the work that I do is very much focused on management of anxiety, the practice of compassion. I basically teach people how to face their fear. That's what I do for a living.

00:51:14 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:51:14 Speaker_09
I do wonder, though, with the anxiety piece, it does seem from everyone we've heard to just quiet the chatter, whether it's food chatter or whatever.

00:51:24 Speaker_09
I do wonder how it would affect people's anxiety just in that way of like the rumination or the not able to like turn something off or even OCD when it's these impulses that you can't shut off. I wonder if it would quiet that. I don't know.

00:51:39 Speaker_09
I don't know either.

00:51:40 Speaker_06
Yeah. None of us know. We don't know yet. It's kind of a fascinating time in many ways.

00:51:46 Speaker_08
But so how did you get into recovery? What pushed you? I live in America, but I am Australian. I'm American too.

00:51:53 Speaker_06
What age were you when you moved here?

00:51:54 Speaker_08
I was 19 and I came here just to go skiing and I met my husband who is from Michigan. No way! Yes and we got married and there you have it.

00:52:06 Speaker_08
After we'd been married for a couple years I was so deep in my eating disorder and I was planning a trip home to Australia and I had a little meltdown because the menu on the aeroplane was not loading onto the internet.

00:52:20 Speaker_08
And I needed to see this menu to determine whether I would gain massive amounts of weight on this airplane. That's where I was at. And I had a meltdown and he gently said, I think it's time we get you some help. And to be honest, I was so relieved.

00:52:36 Speaker_08
I was so relieved. Some people were eating, so I was like, absolutely not. But for me, I was just like, thank you for acknowledging that I cannot do this anymore. So I went to therapy and she made me eat a lot of burritos.

00:52:48 Speaker_08
And this is when I got into self-compassion. This was back in the day when you had an iPod. Yeah. And you would download things like podcasts onto the iPad. So I would download a podcast of Tara Brock. Do you know who Tara Brock is?

00:53:01 Speaker_08
Yes, I love her Radical Acceptance. And the therapist had given me a rule that I was not allowed to go to the gym anymore. It made me very mad. It was very, very hard for me because that was one of the compulsions I did.

00:53:10 Speaker_08
So she agreed I was allowed to take walks. So I'd put Tara Brock in my ears and I would just walk and walk and walk, still compulsively.

00:53:19 Speaker_06
Sure, sure, sure. Like 16 hours of walk. What's the point of doing it if you're not going to do it? Right.

00:53:24 Speaker_08
Something about that shifted in that I would be listening to her. She would be talking about compassion and that we're all equal, that you're neither good nor bad, that you're no better or less than other people. And slowly the message got in.

00:53:40 Speaker_08
So that was huge for me. But no, I would go back and she would say, OK, now you have to put cheese in your burrito and now you have to put extra sour cream on your burrito. Wow. And so slowly you just adapted.

00:53:52 Speaker_08
Yeah, it took a lot of work, but to be honest, I was lucky because I wanted to have a good life. We would go out for like Friday night drinks, and I would have a drink. I would have a margarita, and then I would feel like crap.

00:54:06 Speaker_08
And everyone else seemed to be so happy, and I felt guilty, and I felt scared. It just took up so much of my life, and I knew there was something better than that.

00:54:15 Speaker_06
Yeah, I relate to that in addiction, which is like, it's just so consuming that your real life's playing in the background of your head.

00:54:23 Speaker_06
It's like you're walking through everything, you're experiencing everything, but what you're thinking in real time is like, okay, I have three pills in my pocket and I'll go to the bathroom and then I'll be able to put one in.

00:54:30 Speaker_06
And then I think one fell out of my chair. I got to get that before someone, like you're doing all the things, but the preoccupation is really what your all day existence is.

00:54:39 Speaker_08
It's exhausting. And there's no joy.

00:54:42 Speaker_06
And you're missing life.

00:54:43 Speaker_08
Yeah. I have a photo of me at like a El Torito or something. And I have a margarita and my husband took it and he's like, look how beautiful you look.

00:54:51 Speaker_08
And I look at that picture now and I'm like, I remember as he took that photo, I was counting calories. Wow. I do not remember the joy of that at all.

00:55:00 Speaker_06
And just faking the whole thing so you don't get busted.

00:55:02 Speaker_08
Yes.

00:55:03 Speaker_06
Well, this is where I have so much compassion for folks with eating disorders because, and I've said this before, forgive me, but if you told me I had to have a line of cocaine at 8 a.m. then a line of cocaine at 1 p.m. and a line of cocaine at 8 p.m.,

00:55:18 Speaker_06
No fucking way. Like the notion that you guys have to three times a day eat. And that's the issue I think is heroic of the many addictions or disorders. I mean, that's the one where you have to dance with the devil.

00:55:32 Speaker_08
Yes.

00:55:33 Speaker_09
Abstinence isn't an option.

00:55:35 Speaker_08
No, you can't just stay away from food. And it is this dance on either side. So you have to eat, but you're not allowed to binge.

00:55:42 Speaker_08
Because that would be a disordered behavior, but you're also not allowed to restrict, but you also have to learn to trust your body's satiation, which you have no idea what that looks like.

00:55:54 Speaker_08
And so it's this constant dance of trying to figure that out. It takes time.

00:55:59 Speaker_02
Yeah, fuck, that seems so hard.

00:56:02 Speaker_08
It is. And it's funny because you can be recovered for a very, very long time, which I have been, and get a stomach flu and throw up a bunch. And then there's this little voice in your brain that goes, this is really good.

00:56:16 Speaker_08
And then you have to be like, oh, bring in the tools, let's go. You have to be so ready for that, especially at the beginning of recovery. Now I'm like, oh, hon, I got you. You don't have to worry.

00:56:25 Speaker_08
But at the beginning, there had to be some pretty systematic strategies to intervene with when you had a stomach flu.

00:56:33 Speaker_06
Or how about, I don't think I have disordered eating, but also I think pretty normal is we have these periods of total gorging, like holidays. Everyone's going to do it. We've not made one dessert.

00:56:44 Speaker_06
My mom starts cooking like December 10th for the snacks, you know, and there's like 8,000 options. Those must be really challenging.

00:56:51 Speaker_08
For sure. And I think going back to what you were saying about how angry people can be, something that is so easy for some people is so hard for us because Aunt Jean is talking about how she's over eight, which makes you think you've over eight.

00:57:05 Speaker_08
And then Aunt Dorothy is saying, oh, I feel like a big fat pig. And now you're like, am I a big fat pig? Thanksgiving, everyone's like, Oh, you've looked great or you've gained weight or you've lost weight.

00:57:14 Speaker_08
You're surrounded by this constant, you're doing it right or you're doing it wrong. And the messaging of the eating disorder is being fed to you all the time. Yes. Thinking now, coming back to your question, I think that's why people are mad.

00:57:27 Speaker_08
I remember if someone was like, oh, I feel so fat. That used to be so hard for me. Or they'd be like, oh, I've got this great diet. And I'd be like, you have no idea how hard it is for me to hear that.

00:57:37 Speaker_07
Yeah, yeah.

00:57:38 Speaker_08
That could so trigger me back into behaviors. It's a slow chipping away of behaviors. I haven't weighed myself in 15 years for that reason. You have to chip away.

00:57:48 Speaker_08
Like if someone told me I had to start weighing myself, my anxiety, I'd notice it right away. I remember when I was pregnant, the scariest part of being pregnant was that I might have to get weighed. I would do a blind weigh-in every time.

00:57:59 Speaker_08
I'd be like, do not tell me I'm recovering from an eating disorder. And they'd go, I got you. Don't worry.

00:58:03 Speaker_06
I want to applaud Monica because I think Monica has enough self-awareness about herself and her own ruminations and powers of obsession that Monica, to my knowledge, has never had an eating issue, but doesn't weigh herself preemptively.

00:58:17 Speaker_09
Like I know I could become obsessed. I think it's smart for me just not to. see it. I mean, I've had like some tiny slippery slopes that have been enough that are like, ah, I think that's something I just can't do.

00:58:31 Speaker_08
Well, that's an act of compassion, right? You know yourself, you know what's right for you, and you're willing to hold that boundary for your long-term well-being. That's perfect.

00:58:41 Speaker_06
Okay, so anxiety, as much as we use the word, I think it might be useful to actually kind of talk about anxiety and talk about anxiety versus anxiety disorder.

00:58:51 Speaker_06
What's just like a cursory, if we were taking anxiety 101, what could you tell us about anxiety?

00:58:57 Speaker_08
Well, anxiety isn't actually bad. Everybody needs it.

00:59:00 Speaker_08
If you're crossing the street and there is a bus coming your way, your brain detects danger and sends out a bunch of anxiety hormones so that you know that you need to get off the road as soon as possible. That's a good thing.

00:59:14 Speaker_08
And we're constantly checking for danger too. So as I came in here, without my even knowledge, I'm sure my brain did a little zoom through the room. Like, is anyone weird in here? And is the roof going to fall on my head?

00:59:25 Speaker_08
And your brain is constantly checking. We can't guarantee that it won't. That's okay, but we're constantly checking for danger as a way to stay alive. And if their danger presents, anxiety presents and encourages us to fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.

00:59:43 Speaker_08
That's the four F's. So that's not a problem. But as we've evolved over time, for some lucky ones of us who have genetically been set up for anxiety, our brains tend to go over and above looking for dangers now to look at like just in case fears.

01:00:01 Speaker_08
So someone without anxiety comes in, looks good, sit down, I'm good. For someone with an anxiety disorder, your brain starts to go, but what if the roof does fall on our head? And what if Monica isn't a nice person? What if Dax doesn't like me?

01:00:14 Speaker_06
You're like now creating multiple steps.

01:00:16 Speaker_08
Yeah, in different areas. So different disorders have different fears. So if I had an eating disorder, maybe I'm like, what did the cappuccino I have? Is it going to make me gain weight? Or as if I had social anxiety, I'd be like, do they think I'm lame?

01:00:29 Speaker_08
If I had obsessions like you had with OCD, it might be, will I lose control and kill both of you right now? It depends on where your brain goes.

01:00:38 Speaker_08
But the disordered piece is when that response impacts your functioning, starts to impact your ability to enjoy your day, that there's a degree of distress.

01:00:48 Speaker_06
Well, yeah, because what I really, really enjoyed learning from Allegra was the difference between OCD and OCPD. Yes.

01:00:55 Speaker_06
There's such a clear distinction between if you're straightening up your house methodically, you ultimately agree that's the right decision. You do think that's a virtue that you're

01:01:05 Speaker_08
It aligns with your values.

01:01:06 Speaker_06
It aligns with your values.

01:01:08 Speaker_08
Well, it depends on the function. We always assess function. So when I finish seeing clients for the day, I tidy. Not because I'm doing it from a place of anxiety. It's very soothing for me to feel like I'm finishing off the day.

01:01:22 Speaker_08
I don't have to think about anything. I might just putter around and fuss with things.

01:01:26 Speaker_08
Whereas if I was doing it because I felt such anxiety that I couldn't move on to my evening, or that if the house wasn't tidy, bad things might happen to my children, that's a whole different thing.

01:01:36 Speaker_06
I read something else you wrote. If we do things perfectly, people will be less upset at us, experience less adversity.

01:01:44 Speaker_02
Yeah.

01:01:45 Speaker_06
Also, I was listening, you had a guest on your podcast talking about social anxiety. And again, there's like these pop culture understandings of this versus what it is, OCD versus OCPD.

01:01:56 Speaker_06
And then I would think, yeah, in general, we would regard social anxiety as being shyness. No, not at all. Please dispel that.

01:02:04 Speaker_08
So there are all kinds of humans. None are right. Some are introverts, some are extroverts, some are shy, some are really outspoken, and any of those can have social anxiety. Social anxiety is the fear of being judged.

01:02:16 Speaker_08
In fact, some people believe that social anxiety is more of a shame disorder than an anxiety disorder. The fear that you're not good enough or that you're bad.

01:02:26 Speaker_08
Shame can be a very painful component of the disorder, but typically it's the fear of being judged by other people. Now, for some people with social anxiety, they could come and do this and have not an ounce of social anxiety, but put them in a party.

01:02:42 Speaker_08
or at a networking event, or to speak on stage, and uh-uh, no way. Whereas some of my patients go on the red carpet and put on a show and speak in front of millions of people, but sitting across from someone at a date is terrifying to them.

01:02:59 Speaker_08
So it depends on the person and it depends on the circumstances.

01:03:05 Speaker_01
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

01:03:18 Speaker_06
And again, it kind of starts overlapping a little bit with OCD, which is the guest you had on. She was saying like, before she goes to a social event, she'll start compulsively checking that her face isn't red, armpit sweat, checking if she smells.

01:03:33 Speaker_08
Yes.

01:03:33 Speaker_06
That to me is like, well, that's the compulsion, right? There's some obsession. I'll be excluded or I'll be judged or I'm not good enough to be there. And then the compulsion is like, what is my checklist of things that might alienate me?

01:03:45 Speaker_08
Yeah, so there's something also to know about this. So that can be a symptom of social anxiety, the fear that you would smell and therefore would be judged socially because of it.

01:03:54 Speaker_08
There is actually another diagnosis called olfactory reference syndrome, where people's core fear are that they smell. That is the only part of their condition. And they spend a lot of time obsessing and compulsing over whether they smell.

01:04:10 Speaker_08
Do people notice? I'm asking a lot of reassurance seeking. So that could bleed into a different disorder as well.

01:04:15 Speaker_06
I've been asked, as we all have, like, do I smell or do you smell or does my breath smell? And I'm not thinking that they might possibly have a disorder, that that's on their mind all the time.

01:04:25 Speaker_08
The thing to take note of is repetition with all these conditions. If you're having a particularly stinky day, you might ask, do I smell?

01:04:34 Speaker_08
But if you're noticing that person asking it repetitively, that's where we're looking more at a degree of disorder.

01:04:40 Speaker_06
Can I add in for fun, if someone steps out of the shower and they say, do I smell, it might be a red flag. Your podcast, Your Anxiety Toolkit, is wonderful, and you cover so many different topics on there. Do you have a favorite guest?

01:04:55 Speaker_08
Yeah, I have a couple. Tara Brach has been on my podcast. Oh, amazing.

01:04:58 Speaker_06
Oh, was that so wonderful for you in full circle? Yeah.

01:05:00 Speaker_08
It was like a career highlight. I was traveling for a conference to Washington, and I reached out to her and I said, I will literally take 10 minutes if you've got it, and I will make a donation.

01:05:13 Speaker_08
Because she has an insight meditation center and she said yes. Wow. That was such a wonderful, like literally the person who helped me recover. It was such a moment.

01:05:24 Speaker_06
Can I ask what your anxiety level was approaching that interview?

01:05:28 Speaker_08
My anxiety was that I was going to go to the wrong location. Actually, that was my anxiety here today as well. What if I just show up and I'm standing outside someone's gate and I'm not even at the right place? But no, actually it just felt so right.

01:05:39 Speaker_08
It was so good. But my other favorite episode was my husband. Because he had his own anxiety disorder that he was working through and he bravely came on and shared about how he was working through his own panic disorder on airplanes.

01:05:57 Speaker_08
And it was just cool.

01:05:58 Speaker_09
Not to derail us totally, but I just know so many people who are so afraid of flying. Yes. Do you have a two-minute way to get people past that?

01:06:08 Speaker_06
You have a 90 second cure for that?

01:06:11 Speaker_09
How fast can I talk? But you know what I mean. Are there any tools?

01:06:15 Speaker_08
Because it's debilitating for people. It depends on the fear. So if the fear is that the plane will crash, it might be around some psychoeducation of the safety of a plane and helping them to understand what planes do and how they function.

01:06:28 Speaker_08
I don't feel like that helps them.

01:06:29 Speaker_06
I know, I've always tried that.

01:06:31 Speaker_08
There's that group. And then there are those who just simply have panic disorder. And that's that they're afraid they'll have a panic attack on a plane. So that's different.

01:06:39 Speaker_08
Often people say they're afraid of planes, but they're actually afraid of panicking.

01:06:43 Speaker_06
Interesting. I can way more relate to that category.

01:06:46 Speaker_08
Yeah. And he was that. He was more afraid that if I get on a plane, I can't get off the plane. And if I can't get off the plane, I'll panic.

01:06:53 Speaker_06
It's almost a claustrophobia adjacent.

01:06:55 Speaker_08
And it's so common. Panic is the fear of panic. Wow, yeah. That's so true.

01:07:01 Speaker_06
That's what it is. How circular is that? Panic is the fear of panic.

01:07:04 Speaker_08
And panic is terrifying. It's 10 out of 10. You feel like you're going to die. You feel like you've left your body. So I don't blame anybody for not wanting to have a panic attack.

01:07:13 Speaker_08
But believe it or not, as someone who's had lots of panic attacks, the best thing you can do is let it happen. Do nothing about it at all.

01:07:22 Speaker_08
And that sounds very easy, and it is simple, but it's hard at the same time, is allow that panic to rise and fall. And with each time you panic, you'll build mastery over panic.

01:07:34 Speaker_08
And interestingly, as you build mastery, your panic gets smaller and smaller. So you think that letting it come will blow your head off, but it's actually the opposite.

01:07:43 Speaker_06
Would I be right to guess that it's the fighting it that is the fuel of it?

01:07:47 Speaker_08
What you resist persists.

01:07:49 Speaker_09
And it's knowing it. Oh, this is what it is. It's a panic attack. I had them for a while. I just thought I was dying every time until many doctors were like, you're fine. You probably should go to therapy. And I was like, oh, OK. And then, yeah.

01:08:04 Speaker_09
But it is so scary because you're like, what if I have one while I'm... I mean, at the beginning, I was starting to babysit for them. I was like, well, what if I'm holding the baby and I have one or in the car?

01:08:12 Speaker_09
And I had had one in the car, so it does start perpetuating and get really crazy. But once you recognize, like, that's what it is that's happening.

01:08:19 Speaker_08
Panic attacks are not dangerous.

01:08:21 Speaker_08
And when you can wrap your head around that, I always sort of make a joke, but I have literally had to ride panic attacks in this exact way, is you just starfish, like you lay down and you open your palms and you're just like, bring it on. Let's go.

01:08:35 Speaker_06
Let's go, motherfucker. Let's party. Let's do this.

01:08:38 Speaker_08
And you wait it out. Again, a lot of this is mindfulness skills. So it's bringing your attention to the present, practicing non-judgment about the panic attack. Like this is neither good nor bad. It just is.

01:08:48 Speaker_06
I'm not broken because of this.

01:08:50 Speaker_08
Did I go over time? And people talk about that with addiction too, right? You've got to ride a wave of an urge.

01:08:57 Speaker_06
Yeah.

01:08:58 Speaker_08
So it's very similar.

01:08:59 Speaker_06
You're probably reticent to give these kind of hard, fast rules, but. I think a lot of people are dancing on the spectrum of a lot of these things. We had this great, uh, Cata Hawkins.

01:09:10 Speaker_06
She was a sex therapist and she defined something in a way for me that was so crystal clear and so helpful. I was saying, what if people have sexual trauma and then they want to explore that sexual trauma in different ways as they're adults.

01:09:23 Speaker_06
Who are we to say that it's wrong for them? Like they were dealt this hand. And she said, oh, it's very simple. Whatever your sexual proclivity or tendency is, if it doesn't result in shame or secrecy, then you're golden. I was like, oh, so clear cut.

01:09:38 Speaker_06
Thank you. That's helpful to people. So is there anything we can say about people who are on this spectrum of diet and exercise? Are there things, are there red flags that we should be aware of? Are there things that we should take account of and assess?

01:09:53 Speaker_08
Yeah. So my job as a clinician is actually to always assess medical first, not mental.

01:10:00 Speaker_08
And so if I have a client who is of healthy weight and isn't doing harm to themselves or others, then my job is actually to just help them explore what's best for them.

01:10:15 Speaker_08
My job is not here to sit across from you and say, you have a disorder and you must rid yourself of all disorders.

01:10:21 Speaker_06
You need 2200 calories a day.

01:10:22 Speaker_08
Yes, that's not my personal experience of my job.

01:10:25 Speaker_08
However, if there is someone sitting across from me who is medically in trouble, they're malnourished, they haven't had a period in a very long time to the degree in which their medical professionals are concerned.

01:10:38 Speaker_08
It could be just anything that's starting to impact their short-term and long-term wellness. I will raise a concern and say, I'm worried. What can I do? What are you willing to do? What would feel safe for you?

01:10:50 Speaker_08
Can I bring in other team members and have a discussion first? There are a small degree of people who, if they keep going, they're going to have a heart attack. I've had those clients. They're so malnourished.

01:11:02 Speaker_08
They're putting so much stress on their internal organs. A heart attack is around the corner. That's different where we may look at hospitalization and so forth.

01:11:12 Speaker_08
But I think there's so much beauty in first exploring people and their own values and understanding what is this pattern? What are these behaviors actually doing for you first before I rip them from you? I want to know how they're helping you.

01:11:25 Speaker_08
And then we can start to talk about alternatives and you get to decide.

01:11:29 Speaker_06
I like that approach. I want you to rid me of something.

01:11:34 Speaker_08
But the interesting thing is, it's funny you say that, is as soon as I come at it from an angle of how does this help you? How does it not help you? You're more likely to say, I'm willing to trust you with my problem.

01:11:46 Speaker_06
Of course.

01:11:46 Speaker_08
Whereas if I'm across from you being like, you've got to stop doing this thing. Yikes. You're already got enough anxiety. You don't need any more.

01:11:53 Speaker_06
Control is a huge element of it. And now you're telling me that your solution is to control me and I already am feeling out of control, then it's just going to accelerate this.

01:12:01 Speaker_08
Yeah, this is big for teens, right? You got a teen who has got an anxiety disorder or a mood disorder or an eating disorder. They don't want to give their parents the satisfaction of changing things. So it's saying, what are you willing to do?

01:12:15 Speaker_08
What would be better for you? Instead of the mom and dad coming in and being like, we want you to do this. It's so much more effective. It builds a sense of self-mastery when they come up with their own solution.

01:12:26 Speaker_06
I guess I have stereotypes. Is this something that affects younger people more than older people? Or is it all pretty much across the board? There's as many people.

01:12:36 Speaker_08
Anxiety or?

01:12:37 Speaker_06
I guess you just had brought up a teenager with an eating disorder. And that seems the one I'm probably thinking feels like they would be most vulnerable to that at that age.

01:12:45 Speaker_08
Very much. I actually didn't get my eating disorder until I was 17, really ramped up when I moved to America. But it wasn't because of American culture. It's because I had nothing else to define me.

01:12:57 Speaker_08
I was alone here with a husband who was working a lot and I didn't have a visa to work. And what was I going to do? I felt so powerful when I was on a diet. I felt so in control and better than other people. It was such a drug.

01:13:14 Speaker_08
People would say, you're so disciplined. And I'd be like, I know. But inside I was completely miserable.

01:13:20 Speaker_06
This has nothing to do with any of these topics, although maybe it will dovetail into it. But I'm impressed that your relationship weathered you moving and leaving everything for that person.

01:13:33 Speaker_06
Because if I were you and I was scared and I was lonely and I was unmoored, and I didn't know my identity, I would be so hyper vigilantly evaluating this person I had done all this for.

01:13:44 Speaker_06
I just feel like I would be scrutinizing them to a degree that would not be natural.

01:13:49 Speaker_08
Yeah, we've navigated that.

01:13:50 Speaker_06
It's impressive.

01:13:52 Speaker_08
My husband and I are very different, but he gives the world's best hugs. If there is a competition for the world's best hugs, it is him.

01:14:00 Speaker_06
He and I need to have a hug off. Yeah, Dax is pretty good.

01:14:03 Speaker_08
Oh my God, maybe it is.

01:14:04 Speaker_06
The mitten, it has something to do with the mitten bear.

01:14:07 Speaker_08
You'll have to give me one after this and I will compare and contrast and I'll give you a little like out of five.

01:14:13 Speaker_06
You love the five scale. It makes me uncomfortable. I want everything out of 10.

01:14:18 Speaker_08
But I think for him, there's a safety there with that. So even though it was so scary and something I would never wish on anybody, I was so young. I was married when I was 21.

01:14:27 Speaker_08
We had actually lived apart on opposite ends of the world longer than we had been together on the day we got married. So we'd spent more time apart than together.

01:14:38 Speaker_06
Oh, you guys made this? Wow, that's incredible. This is low odds, everything you're saying.

01:14:42 Speaker_08
It is, it is. So I don't really know, but you know, I say to friends, marriage is not easy. It's mostly just the decision to stay married. That person has to be enough, you're a safe person. And it's mostly a decision, right?

01:14:54 Speaker_08
And we just keep making the decision. Yeah.

01:14:56 Speaker_06
Yeah. I'm going to repeat this too many times at this point, but our first therapy session between my wife and I, which was months into dating, he wanted to meet with me first because he was her therapist.

01:15:06 Speaker_06
So we had like a session, but he was sober, which made me trust him. And he's like, so tell me this whole thing. And I said, well, basically we were dating.

01:15:13 Speaker_06
Then we went away and did a movie together and they did not want to hire us because we were dating.

01:15:17 Speaker_06
And I told one of the producers, who's one of my best friends, I said, listen, I'm going to promise you under no circumstance will we break up during this movie. I don't, give a shit what happens. I'm promising you I'm not gonna do that."

01:15:28 Speaker_06
And now we're home and I'm like, now we're back in real life and I don't know. And he goes, that's an interesting phrase, you're in real life. Because actually, that was real life.

01:15:40 Speaker_02
Yes.

01:15:40 Speaker_06
Committing no matter what, that was real life. And I was like, Whoa, wow, that is really it, huh? I can't believe how simple that was, but it kind of blew my mind.

01:15:51 Speaker_08
Yeah. Tell me the title of your book. I wrote The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD.

01:15:56 Speaker_06
OK, the self-compassion workbook for OCD. If you don't have OCD, does that book still have tools for compassion?

01:16:03 Speaker_08
It does. But I'm in the process of writing the every person version. It's way more sassy. That's very much almost like a textbook. Publishers asked me to write it as a clinical workbook for people who don't have access to treatment.

01:16:18 Speaker_08
This is more sassy and daily life stuff.

01:16:21 Speaker_06
Right. That's the problem is like, be more compassionate to yourself. That's easily said, but I think one of the great parts of AA is simply there are actionable steps you take so that you're engaged. You know, it's not in your mind.

01:16:33 Speaker_06
Even if it's bullshit, we figured out ways to give you actions that help reinforce what's going on in your brain.

01:16:40 Speaker_08
Yeah, there are actions and it's also today like you guys now know the areas and just that awareness sometimes is enough. Even if you don't move to self-kindness, you just catch yourself in the negative. That can be great too. This is so important.

01:16:56 Speaker_08
When you criticize yourself and judge yourself, it actually ramps up your nervous system. It prompts your body. When you're mean, you're like, you idiot.

01:17:06 Speaker_08
If I sat across from you, or you even said it to yourself, and we put heart rate monitors on you, and we did an evaluation of your brain, your whole body goes into anxiety and a lot of nervous system ramping up.

01:17:20 Speaker_08
So think about, if you're going to do something hard, do you need that extra horrible feeling?

01:17:26 Speaker_06
Right, are you setting yourself up?

01:17:27 Speaker_08
Yeah, it's already hard enough. Don't make it worse by beating yourself up. Physiologically, our body does add more suffering when we act that way.

01:17:35 Speaker_06
Well, Kimberly, this was delightful. And I'm so glad that you got to come in and talk to us. And I'll very much be looking forward to the self-compassion for lay people, non-OCD version.

01:17:45 Speaker_04
Me too, all the people.

01:17:47 Speaker_06
And everyone should check out your anxiety toolkit, Your Husband and Tarbox.

01:17:52 Speaker_09
That's exciting. I'm definitely going to listen to that.

01:17:54 Speaker_06
Yeah, good starter episodes. Well, I hope we get to see you again. Maybe when you finish your book, you can come back.

01:17:58 Speaker_08
Thank you. That would be great. Thank you so much for having me. What a treat.

01:18:02 Speaker_06
I want to tell you, you did a great job, but I also feel like that might feed it.

01:18:05 Speaker_08
Yeah.

01:18:06 Speaker_06
Yeah.

01:18:06 Speaker_08
In Australia, we say tickets. If you're full of yourself, everyone goes, tickets. Like you're selling tickets for yourself. Oh, I like that. So don't give me tickets.

01:18:16 Speaker_06
Don't give me tickets. All right, well thank you so much, Kimberly.

01:18:22 Speaker_02
Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at.

01:18:31 Speaker_06
Engaged.

01:18:33 Speaker_09
Your shirt kind of matches my shoes.

01:18:35 Speaker_06
I'll say. Should I put those boots on so I can tie this whole thing together a little better?

01:18:39 Speaker_09
No, I wouldn't want you to mess them up.

01:18:42 Speaker_06
Oh.

01:18:43 Speaker_09
Stretch them out.

01:18:44 Speaker_06
Well, don't you think you- Well, my feelings are a little hurt, but we can continue.

01:18:47 Speaker_09
Oh, okay.

01:18:47 Speaker_06
Do you think- You can dry my shoes on. Even if you ruin them.

01:18:51 Speaker_09
Well, here's the thing. I don't think I'm really at risk of stretching yours out.

01:18:55 Speaker_06
You're not, but you could have a toe fungus.

01:18:58 Speaker_09
Never!

01:18:59 Speaker_06
I have a toenail fungus.

01:19:01 Speaker_09
I think I might too.

01:19:02 Speaker_06
I've opened up a two-front war on it, though, finally.

01:19:05 Speaker_09
Well, how are you handling it?

01:19:06 Speaker_06
I have this crazy theory. I mean, I only believe in this theory like 1%. Okay. Let's be very clear about how much I think this is plausible. You know this about me. I have a toenail that's dead. Yeah. Big toenail on my left foot.

01:19:20 Speaker_06
From a motorcycle accident years ago, 13 years ago, right?

01:19:24 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:19:25 Speaker_06
And so this is grotesque. In fact, this whole podcast is becoming so grotesque because I talked about an oily evac the other day.

01:19:32 Speaker_09
We always talk about stuff like that.

01:19:34 Speaker_06
I know, but it's getting worse. But at any rate, I do have this disgusting toe. Everyone should know this dark side of me. And it doesn't grow. I discovered it because you may remember this detail.

01:19:45 Speaker_06
I used to take Kristen on her birthday to get manicure, pedicure. Yes. And I would join. Yeah. And I would get a pedicure.

01:19:54 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:19:55 Speaker_06
And I'd always do the same blue. I love this blue. It's a gumball blue. Audi made a A4 in it. It's gorgeous. Well, it's like July 17th. I'm like planning tomorrow's trip.

01:20:08 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:20:08 Speaker_06
And I just realized, I don't know how I missed this. All the blue was gone from the year before on all of my toenails, except for my left big toe. It was solid blue. And I was like, oh, that toenail's not growing.

01:20:22 Speaker_06
Mind you, I noticed it looked weird, but I assumed it was still growing. It hadn't grown. This was probably an eight year ago realization.

01:20:32 Speaker_09
Yikes.

01:20:33 Speaker_06
And I use a Dremel tool and I grind it. I do all these things. Well, the last... Oh, bad. The last time recently I got in it with the Dremel and I took it down really far, I noticed under the toenail, like in my nail bed, it's like black. Okay.

01:20:54 Speaker_06
So then I, listen how crazy this theory is.

01:20:58 Speaker_09
Okay.

01:20:59 Speaker_06
So then I was like, maybe I don't have psoriatic arthritis or autoimmune thing. Fungus. Maybe I've had this fucking, like a toe infection under my toenail for the last 13 years, and it's what's been causing all my ailments.

01:21:13 Speaker_06
And once I launched that theory, I'm like, we must, I either need to remove, okay, so I did something crazy that the kids watched the other day.

01:21:20 Speaker_10
Okay.

01:21:21 Speaker_06
This is nuts. So my dad, it was embarrassing. I took a safety pin and I heated it up in a candle and I put like 20 holes throughout the toenail. And then I doused it all in rubbing alcohol, hoping to kill the fungus in there.

01:21:41 Speaker_06
And my kids were watching this whole operation.

01:21:45 Speaker_09
Dax, can't you just go to the doctor?

01:21:48 Speaker_06
I can't. I can't seem to find the time.

01:21:50 Speaker_09
Yes, you can.

01:21:51 Speaker_06
I can't.

01:21:51 Speaker_09
For something that's like destroying your immune system, think about how well you would have done on the cognitive test if you didn't have this fungus.

01:21:59 Speaker_06
I can't, yeah, it's probably best that I wasn't at my peak. If I've been bragging, I brag so much just with my half cognition.

01:22:06 Speaker_09
You did a good job. But can you, like, you really should go to the doctor. I can't go to the doctor. Why? I know. Don't be that person. I am against that person.

01:22:16 Speaker_06
Of course, you should be.

01:22:18 Speaker_09
I am.

01:22:19 Speaker_06
It's not because I don't want to see, let me put it this way. If the doctor came over, I'm not asking for that. That's not my expectation. I'm not that entitled. If the doctor came over between records, I'd let them probe my whole body.

01:22:36 Speaker_06
I'm not afraid in that masculine way. It's when will I have time to drive to Beverly Hills between now and December? Because the calendar is not, and it's been nonstop for about five weeks.

01:22:51 Speaker_09
It's nonstop and you can find the time, like let's be realistic.

01:22:56 Speaker_06
Yeah, someone was selling a 1986 911 turbo for $4,000 in Marina Del Rey, somehow I would figure out how to get over there in that time window. So I agree.

01:23:11 Speaker_09
Yeah, you can go and you should.

01:23:13 Speaker_06
I should, but I was like, go or just put a bunch of holes in it.

01:23:17 Speaker_09
Did it fix it?

01:23:18 Speaker_06
I have a toenail fungus spray. My star meter just went down to zero. Brad Pitt doesn't have a fungus spray. Yes, he does.

01:23:25 Speaker_09
He probably does.

01:23:27 Speaker_06
You think he has fungus? I don't think so.

01:23:29 Speaker_09
Okay, hold on, I'm gonna look up.

01:23:30 Speaker_06
Does Brad Pitt have fungus? Okay, so I then, I left my fungal spray. And on the Nashville trip somewhere. I don't even know.

01:23:43 Speaker_09
How often do you spray it?

01:23:44 Speaker_06
I'm streaky. I remember four nights in a row and then I forget for two months. I'm bad at it.

01:23:48 Speaker_09
Interesting. So, but you, it's part of your, like, technically it's part of your routine.

01:23:52 Speaker_06
Well, once I started grinding it, I'm like, I think that's, I think that's a toenail fungus. And I got a spray about two years ago, but I only use it. I don't even want to tell you all the details because it's too embarrassing. I want to hear it.

01:24:02 Speaker_06
Okay, so I've only used it probably, that's two years old and the bottle was very full.

01:24:06 Speaker_09
So I was just having a- I'm not sure if you're supposed to use it for that long either.

01:24:09 Speaker_06
Yeah, you're supposed to spray it on top. It's just rubbing alcohol. It just kills fungus.

01:24:12 Speaker_09
Okay.

01:24:13 Speaker_06
So anyways, I forgot it and I was like, shit, I gotta order more. Well, when I went to Amazon to order more, I realized there's a lot of products. I'm not alone in this battle.

01:24:21 Speaker_09
No, I just looked it up and approximately 15 to 25% of people are likely to have a fungal infection.

01:24:27 Speaker_06
15 to 25% of people?

01:24:29 Speaker_09
A fungal infection like athletes foot at any given time with superficial skin and nail fungal infections affecting up to 20 to 25% of the global population.

01:24:38 Speaker_06
Wow, so that means there's 2 billion people with toe fungus.

01:24:43 Speaker_09
So the chances of Brad Pitt having it is actually pretty high as in 25%.

01:24:49 Speaker_06
Yeah.

01:24:50 Speaker_09
Well, yeah, really. Cause well, whatever.

01:24:52 Speaker_06
He's in a different, he's not even in the populace. Okay. Point being, I discovered all these different problems. Is that, oh, that's the yoon? They are cute. Aren't they cute? Yes, this is the aforementioned mug.

01:25:04 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:25:05 Speaker_06
The coveted mug.

01:25:06 Speaker_09
She's got some tea on her.

01:25:07 Speaker_06
Looks like shit. Okay, did you get shit on that? I guess because it's coffee and tea, it's got a, anyways, I don't wanna make this even grosser. Once I got onto that page of Tonnet, well, then I discovered there are like humongous Band-Aids

01:25:23 Speaker_06
you can put over your toe and it has a patch with some chemical, I'm sure, that seeps in. And I have an advantage because I've drilled holes in the top of Swiss cheese on my knee.

01:25:33 Speaker_09
Ew!

01:25:34 Speaker_06
As good as that cheese, that was really bad.

01:25:35 Speaker_09
Don't ever say cheese when you're talking about fungus.

01:25:39 Speaker_06
But is it cheese fungus? Is it milk fungus?

01:25:41 Speaker_09
No one wants to think about that.

01:25:43 Speaker_06
Okay. So I got these, I was just bragging about it last night. So I got these Band-Aid-y things. And that's a nighttime thing. And then in the morning I have this now milky liquid I put in all around the cuticle and slather it with a brush.

01:26:01 Speaker_06
So I've opened up a two front war, morning and night on this toenail. What if I cure this, what if the fungal infection seeping into my bloodstream and that's all of my autoimmune issues? It's not out of the realm.

01:26:12 Speaker_09
It's not out of the realm. I think it could be, which is why you have to go to the doctor. What you're doing is such a waste of time. It's silly.

01:26:18 Speaker_06
Give me a couple weeks to see if I can clean up all the darkness in the nail and everything. Let's see if I can knock out this thing and have a really healthy pink toenail bed.

01:26:25 Speaker_06
And if I can't accomplish that, look, I've been living with this for 12 years. We can go another couple of weeks.

01:26:32 Speaker_09
If it's in your bloodstream, it's more than some rubbing alcohol that's gonna fix it. I don't think so. You're gonna have to get blood transfusion. And full new blood.

01:26:42 Speaker_06
All right, I'll give myself a blood transfusion. I'll figure out how to get some fresh blood.

01:26:45 Speaker_09
Well, now it's making more sense why you got so offended by my joke about my shoe. Because you're dealing with something very real.

01:26:53 Speaker_06
You're right. I wasn't even aware of that. That's how the subconscious works. Yeah. Oh my God, because I have this deep insecurity about how gross my foot is. You said it was about stretching it out, but what I heard was your toes are too fungus-y.

01:27:09 Speaker_09
I know, you didn't even hear the part about stretching out, you just heard about your nasty foot.

01:27:14 Speaker_06
It's just another step into my father's shadow, which is so crazy because I used to come into my dad's bedroom. I know I've told you this and he had the largest Swiss Army, Swiss Army knife with every one of the attachments.

01:27:27 Speaker_06
It was like six inches thick. And I'd come in there and he'd have paper towel under his foot and he would have the little scissors from it going and the knife and they're

01:27:39 Speaker_09
Ew, ew.

01:27:41 Speaker_06
And I'm like, what are you doing? He was always operating on his feet. And I was like, this man is a monster and he's disgusting. And I was sitting there poking holes in my toenail and I was like, I'm doing it. I'm repeating the pattern.

01:27:54 Speaker_09
Can't you be the one to break the pattern, break the chain?

01:27:57 Speaker_06
I think it's gonna be on Lincoln and Delta to break it. No, you can do it. I can only do so good.

01:28:01 Speaker_09
You can, I promise you can do it.

01:28:05 Speaker_06
There's a few things I have

01:28:08 Speaker_06
I have floating out in the ether like three stupid fucking errands that were years into every time I write a to-do list a couple of items make it on there and then six others and I knock out the six and I just keep rewriting.

01:28:22 Speaker_09
What are they?

01:28:22 Speaker_06
I can't tell one because one of them is illegal.

01:28:25 Speaker_09
What is it? I'll cut it. Are you gonna murder?

01:28:29 Speaker_06
No.

01:28:29 Speaker_09
Okay, got it. You need to do that.

01:28:31 Speaker_06
I know I need to do it. And I need to fix this poisonous toe.

01:28:35 Speaker_09
Okay, I want you to fix the toe before you do that though, for real.

01:28:39 Speaker_06
Yeah, that's likely. I think I'm gonna have an update for you on a couple of fact checks that I've knocked out this whole issue. Think of the pride I'll have of having- This is why men, uh-huh.

01:28:51 Speaker_09
People try to make it so, they try to make it so kind and sweet, like, well, men are just too afraid to be vulnerable, so they don't want to go to the doctor. That's not it. They're arrogant.

01:29:03 Speaker_09
They think they can fix, they can poke holes in their body and pour rubbing alcohol and fix their bloodstream.

01:29:10 Speaker_06
You're not being fair to men.

01:29:11 Speaker_09
I'm being so fair.

01:29:13 Speaker_06
I am a, I don't think your average man is sawing at his toes. My father did. I come by this honestly. Men are, Their standing if they're weak goes down. We can be compassionate to that.

01:29:26 Speaker_09
Say it again?

01:29:26 Speaker_06
Their social standing if they're weak goes down.

01:29:29 Speaker_09
You know what makes someone's social standing go down?

01:29:32 Speaker_06
Fungus?

01:29:33 Speaker_09
Yes. Uncontrolled fungus. Men can't even see that that's the truth.

01:29:39 Speaker_06
We're a pretty unhealthy population. When you're traveling around, I don't know why I'm taking it here, but I because I have it. Right. So I know if I eat my like have a big gluteny meal and then there's garlic in it, the next day my skin will show it.

01:29:54 Speaker_06
And I'm traveling around a lot. And like a good chunk of us is fucking poisoning ourselves. I see it. Like I'll be talking to a guy, an older guy, and it's just his face is inflamed with so clearly so much stuff's going on. It's so visible in the face.

01:30:11 Speaker_09
Well, he probably didn't go to the doctor. He's like, what the fuck? I guess I'll just pour some rubbing alcohol on my face. This redness will go away. I poked so many holes. Don't worry. In a couple of weeks, it'll be fixed.

01:30:21 Speaker_06
This will be straightened out. Well, I think it's twofold. A, these things are hard to track down. Like, what are you allergic to? We're eating 1 million things. So it's a very hard task to figure out what you're allergic to.

01:30:30 Speaker_06
If it were like you went there and they go, oh yeah, you're positive for. name your known pathogen, here's a medicine that works on it. Unfortunately, the stuff for allergies just doesn't work that way.

01:30:41 Speaker_09
Not always, but sometimes, like, you know, you can go do an allergy test and some things do pop up pretty quickly and you can know.

01:30:49 Speaker_06
Yep, like you can do the skin prick test. I've done it and Erin's done it and, you know, that's a good start. I think it's a bit more, that's a very, rudimentary version.

01:30:59 Speaker_09
Yeah, I think that's right.

01:31:01 Speaker_06
It's hard, because I have poured more time into that, the autoimmune thing, than anything else. I've been to hundreds of doctor's appointments and labs and fucking Ponchakarma cleanse. Anyways, okay, so that's what's going on in my toenail.

01:31:15 Speaker_06
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. I saw Substance last night.

01:31:31 Speaker_09
I wanna see it so bad.

01:31:33 Speaker_06
You brought it up last fact check.

01:31:35 Speaker_09
I brought it up on an episode. Next month? An upcoming episode. Oh, I thought it was on a fact. What the fuck, you beat me? Yeah. Tell me your thoughts.

01:31:47 Speaker_06
First of all, okay, so Substance, it's Demi Moore.

01:31:50 Speaker_09
Margaret Qualley.

01:31:52 Speaker_06
And I don't wanna give a lot away, but I think the premise is fine, which is, Demi Moore is playing this aging actress, public personality. It is incredible metaphor at the beginning with the star on the Walk of Fame.

01:32:06 Speaker_06
She comes to find out there's this thing she can take, the substance. And if you take it, you'll be able to be young. for seven days, but then you gotta go back to your old self for seven days.

01:32:18 Speaker_06
And there's really strict rules, they're very simple, it's laid out. And it's the most relentless movie I think I've ever seen. It's intense. I'm really curious to see how you're gonna be able to handle it. It is, it's relentless.

01:32:33 Speaker_06
I can see where a couple people walked out. I think it's one of these things that if you don't walk out, you're gonna love it. But it's very intense.

01:32:41 Speaker_09
Well, I told you that I heard someone had a heart attack and a seizure.

01:32:45 Speaker_06
So the seizure, I remember you telling me about the seizure, and I definitely know what the part is. There's some graphics that flicker. Oh, fuck. But you don't have that.

01:32:55 Speaker_06
I know you have epilepsy, but you haven't ever been triggered by a strobe light, right?

01:33:00 Speaker_09
I don't think so.

01:33:01 Speaker_06
But you don't want to roll the dice.

01:33:03 Speaker_09
I'm scared to roll the dice. And also the night before the first seizure. Yeah. We did go to a play.

01:33:12 Speaker_06
Terrence Posner.

01:33:14 Speaker_09
Yeah, we did. We went to Terrence Posner and it was a great play, but there was like some light stuff and some big pop outs.

01:33:23 Speaker_06
Yeah.

01:33:24 Speaker_09
Big frights.

01:33:24 Speaker_06
Yeah, yeah.

01:33:25 Speaker_09
And then I had a seizure that night.

01:33:26 Speaker_06
Yeah. I mean, I don't want to speak.

01:33:28 Speaker_09
I think it's fine.

01:33:29 Speaker_06
I'm more, I'm more willing to deal with a fungus. If you have that, I'm a little nervous to dip my toe in your epilepsy water, but regardless, you could also go with a friend.

01:33:37 Speaker_06
It's obvious when that comes, they could tell you to shut your eyes and then tell you when that part's over.

01:33:41 Speaker_09
Yeah, okay. I had a dinner last night where somebody else saw it. It's funny, I'm getting sort of mixed things because, well, not mixed reviews. Everyone's like, whoa, it's like- It's intense. Yeah, it's intense.

01:33:51 Speaker_06
Might be the most intense movie I've ever seen.

01:33:54 Speaker_09
Yes, and that's what a lot of people have said, but then this person said, she was like, you'll be fine.

01:34:01 Speaker_06
Well, you're going to love the messaging so much.

01:34:05 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:34:06 Speaker_06
The messaging and what they're exploring is phenomenal. Who'd you go with? Kristen. She surprised me and had bought tickets. So I think she had been hearing about it too. And yeah, you're gonna love the metaphors.

01:34:21 Speaker_09
Did she get freaked out too?

01:34:22 Speaker_06
She loved it. But Kristen loves gore and slasher and gross.

01:34:29 Speaker_09
I have a burgeoning theory.

01:34:31 Speaker_06
Demi Moore is phenomenal in it. The bravery of both the actors is off the charts. They're naked most of the movie.

01:34:39 Speaker_09
I heard that, yeah.

01:34:39 Speaker_06
Which is so relevant.

01:34:41 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:34:41 Speaker_06
Because that's what it's all about. Our obsession with our bodies. I know. And fuck. It's really good. It's fantastic.

01:34:48 Speaker_09
I wonder if the amount of, like, feeling disturbed is going to break down by gender.

01:34:58 Speaker_06
I don't think so, because there's just very disturbing visuals.

01:35:03 Speaker_09
for men who have seen it, they have urea. It's like, they are freaking out about how intense it was and how, and the person with the seizure and the heart attack was a man.

01:35:13 Speaker_09
And then I've talked to a few women who are like, whoa, it's crazy, you gotta see it. But like, but they don't have that.

01:35:21 Speaker_06
And I- Well, I think what could be different, because the thing that is intense isn't the metaphor. Like, I know what you're saying and guessing at, which is very astute.

01:35:31 Speaker_06
but it's just the visuals of, it's way gorier than any slasher picture I've ever seen in my life. So there's just a visceral visual gnarliness to it.

01:35:43 Speaker_06
Now, what I do agree with is that for women, they will feel so seen that they'll be having this complimentary feeling of the pleasure of being seen so well. to offset probably the uncomfortableness.

01:36:00 Speaker_06
So in that way, maybe, but I think women are going to be just as shook by some of the visuals.

01:36:07 Speaker_09
Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. A lot of women have put substances in their body.

01:36:13 Speaker_06
Oh, uh-huh.

01:36:14 Speaker_09
In attempt to stop aging, look younger, and I, myself included, chin filler, chin filler, Botox. But really, right?

01:36:24 Speaker_06
So yes, but I will say what is really great about the movie is it, all these things are very related. Sure, it's about beauty and aging for a woman. It's also very much a metaphor for addiction.

01:36:43 Speaker_06
As you'll see, I don't want to give away kind of what the interesting twist of it all is, but there's a very, very, very strong parallel with addiction and kind of robbing from your future to experience something now is really interesting.

01:37:00 Speaker_06
Anyway, it's incredible.

01:37:01 Speaker_09
Well, it's kind of a ding, ding, ding.

01:37:05 Speaker_06
Already feels like a stretch the way you're saying it.

01:37:08 Speaker_09
This is for Kimberly. So it was about self-compassion. Actually very much a ding, ding, ding. We talked a lot about eating disorders.

01:37:17 Speaker_06
Oh, uh-huh.

01:37:19 Speaker_09
And phobias and things like that. So it is a ding, ding, ding. Yeah.

01:37:24 Speaker_06
We took a test.

01:37:26 Speaker_09
We took a test.

01:37:26 Speaker_06
We love taking a test.

01:37:28 Speaker_09
Love taking it. Absolutely love it.

01:37:30 Speaker_06
And you know what, I don't even really want to think about it because I don't want to know how the sausage is made and then ruin it, but clearly you and I have some thing.

01:37:40 Speaker_09
Like some work to do?

01:37:42 Speaker_06
No, no, no, no, no. We have some symbiosis, right?

01:37:48 Speaker_09
Oh, yeah.

01:37:49 Speaker_06
And I always kind of wonder, well, what is, like, if you had to distill it down to what is the core thing that enables this?

01:37:57 Speaker_09
to work.

01:37:57 Speaker_06
Yeah, yeah, this like kind of explosive point of view situation.

01:38:01 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:38:02 Speaker_06
And it's not gender, it's not race, it's not a lot of stuff. It's not size. And so just, it's curious if maybe like, well, this is the thing we seem to have overlapped on the very most.

01:38:13 Speaker_09
Well, that's funny that you say that, because I think it is all those things. I think it is gender, race, size. innate personality. I think it is all those things that add up to, for some reason, these puzzle pieces go together well as foils.

01:38:32 Speaker_06
Sure. Yeah, that's true. But I think there's something bigger than that, because I meet a lot of tiny Indian women.

01:38:40 Speaker_09
No, you don't. I do. You do? Yes. Who? Oh God, that girl. What one?

01:38:47 Speaker_06
That girl. Oh, my friend from Instagram? Yes. No, no, no, no, no. Believe it or not, there's a lot of Indians moving through the world and I meet them.

01:38:55 Speaker_09
We work- You meet them, but you don't know them.

01:38:59 Speaker_06
Can you be- None of my points are working today. But really, that'd be like me saying- Our oppositeness, I don't think is the explanation, personally.

01:39:10 Speaker_09
Okay.

01:39:11 Speaker_06
Okay, because I mean a lot of opposites.

01:39:13 Speaker_09
Okay, that's fair.

01:39:14 Speaker_06
Yeah, I think that like, here's the things I think about us, like our justiceness is part of the engine.

01:39:19 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:39:19 Speaker_06
Right, that we share this character defect or proclivity for being justice. Or strength. Arbiters, yeah. But I don't know, I think this beating ourselves up might be part of it.

01:39:30 Speaker_09
I could see that.

01:39:31 Speaker_06
Scratch all my points today.

01:39:33 Speaker_09
I'm keeping them all in.

01:39:34 Speaker_06
I guess when you start with operating on your own toe fungus, everything else probably is gonna fall apart.

01:39:39 Speaker_09
You lose some validity.

01:39:40 Speaker_06
Yeah. Do you think we're compassionate?

01:39:42 Speaker_09
To one another?

01:39:43 Speaker_06
Yeah, on the same level we are to other people? I don't think so, I'll admit that.

01:39:47 Speaker_09
Really?

01:39:48 Speaker_06
Yeah, and I think it's weirdly a compliment to you.

01:39:52 Speaker_09
This is a big revelation. I'm glad you're saying it.

01:39:55 Speaker_06
I'm thinking it. I'm just evaluating it in this very moment, which is I'm very hard on myself because I know better. I've demonstrated willpower. I think I should be able to tackle any of these things I hate about myself.

01:40:10 Speaker_06
And I think because I have a very high opinion of you, I'm probably harsher on you than I am someone who I think is half as smart as you, half as whatever. So I think it's possible there's some spectrum of how Compassion I am towards people.

01:40:28 Speaker_06
And I'm like, I'm, I'm myself here. I have zero compassion for myself. And then I, let's just take my most disenfranchised person.

01:40:36 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:40:37 Speaker_06
And I'm like, they're doing the best they can give them a fucking break. And then you're probably like a third of the way to the left of that person.

01:40:45 Speaker_09
Interesting. Well, first of all, I'll say this. I think I have less compassion. I'm not sure it's like bad, but I think it's true. The closer you are to me, the less compassion I have.

01:40:59 Speaker_06
Yeah, which in a way is natural. I think there's two things happening. One is I think you're capable of anything. So my expectations of you are high. Two is yes, family. You don't feel, I don't feel bad for my brother. I know.

01:41:14 Speaker_06
Well, I do occasionally, but it's definitely a sliding scale.

01:41:17 Speaker_09
Yes. And it comes in and out. It's not a constant. And I have to almost, I have to look for it. I have to search for it.

01:41:24 Speaker_06
Yes. I have to do that with Kristen. I have to remind myself she's a human being trying her best to get through this life.

01:41:31 Speaker_09
Yes. Yeah. So I think it's, for me, it's more that, We're close, so by sort of default.

01:41:41 Speaker_06
I'm your brother.

01:41:42 Speaker_09
I don't give you as much. It's not even, I don't think compassion, it's just like, I don't give you as much leeway. I do have compassion for you.

01:41:51 Speaker_06
Right, privately by yourself.

01:41:57 Speaker_09
This is why. No, I do. I think I am pretty good, I think, and I think you're good at building the other person up. I think if you're down, I think I'm pretty good at being like, that's silly.

01:42:15 Speaker_06
Come on, tiger. You can do a little buddy.

01:42:18 Speaker_09
Let's go, champ.

01:42:19 Speaker_06
Come on, champ.

01:42:20 Speaker_09
You're being too hard on yourself.

01:42:22 Speaker_06
OK, here, I think I have something.

01:42:24 Speaker_09
OK.

01:42:25 Speaker_06
I think you could break it down into finer categories. And so I think if you're hurting and suffering, I do have a lot of compassion for you.

01:42:35 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:42:35 Speaker_06
If you're annoyed and angry.

01:42:37 Speaker_09
Yes.

01:42:38 Speaker_06
And it's about something I think you could fix. I have no compassion for you. No, not no, but I think that's actually, I think within this broad umbrella of compassion, I think there's categories.

01:42:54 Speaker_06
Because when you're suffering, I feel really bad for you.

01:42:57 Speaker_09
Yeah, me too. Yeah.

01:42:59 Speaker_06
But when you're just like eye rolling your eyes off your head for a day.

01:43:04 Speaker_09
That's also because you think that's related to you.

01:43:08 Speaker_06
Yeah, one of my problems, well-established, that I can own is I'm uncomfortable with people I love being angry.

01:43:17 Speaker_09
I know, it's just like, you get angry.

01:43:21 Speaker_06
And then I get angry. I'm like, oh, we're playing angry? Okay, well, I can play angry too.

01:43:27 Speaker_09
Yeah, it's a bad segue.

01:43:29 Speaker_06
But you need to fight anger with love and compassion.

01:43:31 Speaker_09
Yeah, that's right.

01:43:32 Speaker_06
But I don't always do that. I fight anger with anger. I'm a work in progress, Monica. I'm not- I know.

01:43:37 Speaker_09
We all are.

01:43:38 Speaker_06
I'm not there.

01:43:38 Speaker_09
We all are. We all are.

01:43:39 Speaker_06
Do you think any of that's true in reverse? Like if I'm sad and broken, you're very, yes.

01:43:45 Speaker_09
Yeah, that's horrible for me.

01:43:46 Speaker_06
You've seen me sad and broken.

01:43:47 Speaker_09
It's horrible. It's weird. It's like the closer you are, to me as a person, the less leeway I give, I'm hardest on those people, but I definitely care the most. Sure, sure.

01:44:01 Speaker_09
So in that way, if they're hurting, I care way more about my family or you or Jess or anyone who's like hurting over that stranger who I give a ton of leeway to. Right. It's all trade-offs. Yeah, it is all trade-offs.

01:44:18 Speaker_09
But the leeway thing is just because, yeah, you're right. It's like, I know you don't have to do this. Like, I know you know better.

01:44:27 Speaker_06
Yeah, I've evaluated you as very powerful.

01:44:31 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:44:32 Speaker_06
And so I think you have the power, you know.

01:44:36 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:44:36 Speaker_06
It's a compliment you'd rather live without, basically.

01:44:40 Speaker_09
You give me a lot of compliments.

01:44:42 Speaker_06
That I know.

01:44:42 Speaker_09
That are bad words.

01:44:43 Speaker_06
I know, I have to explain them to you, which is not the sign of a great compliment.

01:44:46 Speaker_09
It's not, it's really not. But I'm glad you said that, because I think I've thought that before. And I think maybe I've said, like, you don't give me the benefit of the doubt that you give other people, and I don't like that. And so, confirmation.

01:45:02 Speaker_06
Yeah.

01:45:03 Speaker_09
Which is, I mean, I get it. I get it. And I think- But by the way- It goes both ways.

01:45:08 Speaker_06
I want you to know that I just put all that together. It's not like I've been sitting on that and then when you bring it up, I gaslight you into- No, I know. I really just now decided to evaluate it.

01:45:19 Speaker_09
I know, but isn't that funny though? Because because when we bring things up, it's so quickly like, no, that's crazy, no.

01:45:27 Speaker_06
I just gotta defend myself.

01:45:28 Speaker_09
Yeah, you just get in defense mode and then it takes like six years and then it's like, oh, actually.

01:45:35 Speaker_06
Yeah, we have to be getting along really well for me to open up that vault and take a little peek in there, what's going on.

01:45:42 Speaker_09
Yeah, God, that's why, do you think in marriage it's easier? Sometimes I think that's if we're in like a fight or if something's going on between us. Yeah.

01:45:53 Speaker_09
Sometimes I'm like, it's kind of shitty because we, me and you can let things drag out for a while. Do you know what I mean?

01:46:02 Speaker_07
Yeah, used to. I used to, used to, used to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:46:04 Speaker_09
But when you're married, sometimes I'm like, I think this type of thing comes up in marriages all the time, but then they have dinner, and then they have the bedtime.

01:46:14 Speaker_06
You're forced.

01:46:14 Speaker_09
By the end of the night, you're forced to sort of figure it out, and I don't think, well, unless you don't, and I think that would be really,

01:46:22 Speaker_06
A lot of people don't. A lot of people give their partner the silent treatment for like three days at a time.

01:46:28 Speaker_09
Yeah, that's tough. That's rough, yeah, yeah. And like living in that environment. But I guess that's like, that's a benefit of marriage is I think it can expedite a resolution.

01:46:40 Speaker_06
Because you're forced to work together. Yeah, which I think is good. It's like if you're on a sailboat together. in the middle of the ocean. You gotta figure it out.

01:46:48 Speaker_09
Or you get thrown overboard.

01:46:49 Speaker_06
I even see this with the kids. There's times where they have all the time in the world to fight. And then there's other times where it's like, no, everyone's gotta get their shit together. We can feel that.

01:46:58 Speaker_06
But I have been guilty that very male pattern of shutting down. Like when the conflict is overwhelming emotionally for me, I have, Just completely, I disassociate for a while. This is on topic for Kimberly.

01:47:15 Speaker_09
Yeah, it is. There's only one fact, and it's not really a fact. She mentioned olfactory reference syndrome, which is a core fear that you smell.

01:47:27 Speaker_06
Oh, right.

01:47:27 Speaker_09
Which I thought was very interesting.

01:47:30 Speaker_06
I wonder what percentage, way less than toe fungus probably.

01:47:33 Speaker_09
Right, definitely. But then I wanted to look up list of phobia, like interesting phobias.

01:47:38 Speaker_06
Really quick though, does this account for, some people smell.

01:47:41 Speaker_09
Well, I don't think they have, well, they might have it.

01:47:44 Speaker_06
They might be right to have this.

01:47:46 Speaker_09
That crossover is gonna be sad. The people who are obsessed with it, and it's true. Yes.

01:47:51 Speaker_09
But I think the people who are obsessed with it is probably not true because they're probably going to such extreme lengths to make sure it's not true, but then they're just obsessed with it.

01:48:01 Speaker_09
Ooh, I wonder if people who score higher on the cognitive smell test are higher likelihood to have this disease, I mean disorder.

01:48:11 Speaker_06
Right, super smeller tasters.

01:48:13 Speaker_09
Yeah, I really hope they come back and tell me I'm a super smeller. Oh, you really want to.

01:48:17 Speaker_06
I really want to. Yeah, I had a friend, he's deceased now, so I can tell this story. We would go to the movies sometimes together, and just sitting next to each other, I could smell his breath. And it wasn't,

01:48:31 Speaker_09
Yeah, some people, I know.

01:48:32 Speaker_06
It's not like bad breath smell. It's like something genetic. There's a sharpness. I know. that just exists, I don't think they can go brush their teeth and get rid of it.

01:48:41 Speaker_09
I think it's halitosis.

01:48:43 Speaker_06
Simple chronic halitosis. Yes. Expialidocious.

01:48:47 Speaker_09
Yeah, I think it's halitosis. I know.

01:48:49 Speaker_06
Although. I feel so bad.

01:48:51 Speaker_09
I know, okay.

01:48:51 Speaker_06
Or people that are dealing with really intense vaginal smells or they have really stinky balls, this happens. I feel so much compassion because.

01:49:00 Speaker_09
The stinky balls though, okay.

01:49:02 Speaker_06
You feel like you should be able to knock that out.

01:49:05 Speaker_09
Yes. It's not internal, so you should be able to get under.

01:49:10 Speaker_06
True, but my balls, once in a while, in fact, it just happened when I was with Aaron down in Texas. Because we were in and out of the bus and blah, blah, blah.

01:49:17 Speaker_06
And when I was going to pee, I was like, Aaron, I think I can smell my balls, which is so disgusting.

01:49:22 Speaker_09
But that's if you hadn't showered.

01:49:24 Speaker_06
But even when I don't shower, that doesn't generally happen. I don't know what was going on, stress, whatever. Yeah, sure. Too much emotional, I don't know.

01:49:30 Speaker_09
Probably stress.

01:49:31 Speaker_06
But that's something that happens to me twice a year.

01:49:34 Speaker_09
Right.

01:49:34 Speaker_06
I'm like, oh my God, I can smell my balls while I'm going to pee this year. It's just, I'm out. Toe fungus, stinky balls. Is there anything else I can say?

01:49:43 Speaker_09
No, listen, I think that that is not the same though as like, if you're having like a vulva, vagina issue. A flora issue. Yes. Then that is not like you can just take a shower and then that's over. No. And also, do people know?

01:50:03 Speaker_06
I've known people who like, they eat clean, quote, clean, which this is on topic as well. Sure. But like, they're doing everything right.

01:50:10 Speaker_09
I have heard like, lemon.

01:50:11 Speaker_06
And they can't, lemon?

01:50:13 Speaker_09
Like, lemon's good.

01:50:14 Speaker_06
You put it in your vagina or you just eat a lot of it?

01:50:16 Speaker_09
No, no, no, don't do that. No one do that. You eat it. And because it, I mean, stuff you eat, like.

01:50:22 Speaker_06
Well, and you're supposed to put lemon in a garbage disposal that smells.

01:50:25 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:50:26 Speaker_06
I'm sorry, that is the prescription for a stinky garbage.

01:50:29 Speaker_09
Make that the same thing.

01:50:31 Speaker_06
Well, if there's a commercial for vaginal flora and it says, your garbage smells.

01:50:40 Speaker_09
No, it's really scary. And also the vagina smells so, or the vagina.

01:50:46 Speaker_06
Yeah, I don't think it's the vulva, I think it's the vagina. Let's be clear here.

01:50:48 Speaker_09
I can't believe I still get confused. It changes smells throughout the month.

01:50:54 Speaker_06
Surely. Flies are here, they're not here.

01:50:56 Speaker_09
Flies are here, not here.

01:50:57 Speaker_06
Irony.

01:50:57 Speaker_09
Ovulation. I mean, there's just so much hormonal stuff going on that the vagina.

01:51:02 Speaker_06
And you get irony because blood's coming out. You get that very specific irony smell. God, should I say this? Oh yeah, you should. After everything I've said with my balls stinking and my toe, disgusting toe fungus.

01:51:15 Speaker_09
You know what's upsetting is like,

01:51:18 Speaker_06
people will still like me?

01:51:19 Speaker_09
Yes, and they won't like me, because people will be like, ew, women are, periods, ew, but like they'll take, and then they'll take your toe fungus and be like, that's hot. He's even hotter now, because of his toes.

01:51:32 Speaker_02
He's disgusting.

01:51:33 Speaker_09
No, but sometimes I can smell, not just like if I'm peeing, I can smell if my period is coming is on the is on the prowl.

01:51:49 Speaker_06
Oh, I think that's standard. Gosh. Someone has to say it out loud so all women can go, me too.

01:51:56 Speaker_09
I guess it's me. I guess it's gotta be me who says it out loud. Okay, so phobias. I wanted to talk about some ones people probably haven't heard of. There's half a phobia. That's a morbid fear of being touched.

01:52:14 Speaker_06
Half a phobia?

01:52:15 Speaker_09
H-A-P-H-E phobia. Or maybe it's hapophobia.

01:52:20 Speaker_06
Sounds weird though to say I have half a phobia.

01:52:22 Speaker_09
Doraphobia, the dread of touching the skin or fur of an animal. I don't have that, but maybe I should claim to have that, and then that's why I'm not a huge fan of dogs.

01:52:35 Speaker_06
That's great. That's a good plan. Doraphobia. I only have half a doraphobia. I don't like to touch fish.

01:52:44 Speaker_09
I thought you were making a joke, because half a phobia.

01:52:47 Speaker_06
Oh my god, I didn't even realize that. So I guess I have two phobias. I have half of a phobia of doraphobia. But yeah, reptile, scales, fish. I know. Gross. Chickens' feet, their talons, whatever we call them. Yeah, I don't like that. Their hooves. Yeah.

01:53:02 Speaker_06
The tail of a possum. I'd rather die than touch the tail of a possum. Oh, really?

01:53:05 Speaker_09
What's the tail like?

01:53:06 Speaker_06
It's skin. You know possums have that pink skin tail? Yeah, that's disgusting.

01:53:09 Speaker_09
That's disgusting. Yeah, I don't like that at all. Eremophobia. That's a morbid dread of being alone. That's sad. That's our friend. Won't we?

01:53:22 Speaker_05
I'm so won't we? I have, what's it called?

01:53:27 Speaker_09
Eremophobia.

01:53:28 Speaker_05
I have oemophobia. I'm so lonely all the time, even when I'm at a sporting event.

01:53:36 Speaker_09
Oh, God.

01:53:36 Speaker_05
Surrounded by people.

01:53:38 Speaker_09
Okay. Ergophobia, that's a fear. Do you know this? Oh.

01:53:43 Speaker_06
No, ADHD. I don't really have it, but I want to play something. It's just reminding me of that. I had saved something to play.

01:53:51 Speaker_09
Okay.

01:53:51 Speaker_06
It's an update on Steven Seagal.

01:53:53 Speaker_09
Oh, Booboo Yari.

01:53:54 Speaker_06
I did a voice and then I... Yeah, did he send it to you? Yes, he did. Okay, okay. He did, yes.

01:53:59 Speaker_09
Okay, we'll come back to that. Ergophobia, a fear of or aversion to work.

01:54:06 Speaker_06
Don't have that.

01:54:06 Speaker_09
I don't have that either. Do you wanna play it now? Do you wanna break up our list?

01:54:10 Speaker_06
No, no, we can keep going.

01:54:11 Speaker_09
Okay. Hypnophobia, a morbid fear of sleep. That's interesting.

01:54:16 Speaker_06
Morbid fear of sleep. I might have a touch of that.

01:54:19 Speaker_09
Brontophobia. Oh, and abnormal fear of thunder. Oh. I think a lot of dogs have it.

01:54:25 Speaker_06
Yes. I love thunder.

01:54:28 Speaker_09
Oh, the same word serves as the root of words such as brontosaurus, which literally means thunder lizard.

01:54:33 Speaker_06
Oh, that makes sense.

01:54:35 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:54:36 Speaker_06
Woke last night to the sound of thunder. How far off I sat and wondered. Oh. Started humming a song from 1962.

01:54:45 Speaker_09
This is a ding, ding, ding.

01:54:47 Speaker_06
Okay.

01:54:47 Speaker_09
This is cacorhafeophobia.

01:54:50 Speaker_06
Holy smokes. A fear of saying crazy words?

01:54:53 Speaker_09
Cacorhafeophobia. Okay. It's an abnormal fear of failure.

01:55:02 Speaker_06
These are sad.

01:55:03 Speaker_09
It's the saddest. Oh. I have this, 100%, aphidiophobia, an abnormal fear of snakes.

01:55:15 Speaker_06
Oh, okay. I didn't know that was- What's an abnormal fear of snakes? I think it's irrational. They made it the bad animal in the Bible for a reason. I think we all innately are a little freaked out by these things that slither around.

01:55:27 Speaker_09
But when I was on my hike, well, first about the bears, but then I was like, I'll definitely probably see a snake. Yeah. And I got very anxious. And I was like, I gotta be done with this hike now. I really, really hate snakes.

01:55:43 Speaker_09
And my friend Kirsten has this more than me. She doesn't even like, like if there's a picture of a snake or a- A cord. Well, I guess if you try to make it like a snake and a dancey snake or a stuffy of a snake, like she can't handle it. She hates it.

01:56:00 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:56:00 Speaker_06
Yeah. I have a friend that had that with frogs, and then went to therapy over it, and now can deal with frogs.

01:56:07 Speaker_09
That is abnormal.

01:56:09 Speaker_06
He worked at a pet store, and everything was great. He was like star employee, and then the owner bought a bunch of frogs, and he couldn't do it. He told the guy, like, I have to quit.

01:56:21 Speaker_09
Stop.

01:56:22 Speaker_06
Cannot be around frogs.

01:56:23 Speaker_09
Did he know before that or it was like- Yeah.

01:56:27 Speaker_06
What? Yeah, he was so valuable and he really ran the whole pet store that the guy did stop selling frogs. But like he was moving through the world on high, high alert for frogs. And it became even like, so what's great is he went to therapy over it.

01:56:41 Speaker_06
I'm gonna add he wasn't born in this country. Right. So kinda- I'm really impressed. What I really liked about it is it broke my stereotype of like, oh, Latino men don't wanna go to therapy.

01:56:50 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:56:52 Speaker_06
He now has a frog keychain, which he could have never had. He said, like, this would have driven me crazy, but that was part of his, like, submersion therapy. So now he has a little frog keychain and now he's fine with frogs.

01:57:03 Speaker_06
He had to go through a whole process. That is so sweet. It's really sweet. I love that he has a frog keychain. I was so, like, touched that he shared that story with me.

01:57:09 Speaker_09
Yeah. Also, that's a literal ding, ding, ding. That's exactly what Kimberly does.

01:57:15 Speaker_06
Yes, exactly.

01:57:16 Speaker_09
Is like, get people over their fears. Wow.

01:57:19 Speaker_06
Yeah, it's very sweet. You want to hear Steven Seagal now? Sure. Or do you got a couple more you're hot to get? There's a few more. Yeah, go ahead, give me.

01:57:27 Speaker_09
Taphophobia, an irrational or disproportionate fear of being buried alive.

01:57:32 Speaker_06
Again, irrational?

01:57:34 Speaker_09
Well, I get that.

01:57:35 Speaker_06
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

01:57:36 Speaker_09
Yeah, because I don't think about that often.

01:57:38 Speaker_06
It doesn't cross my mind. I don't think that's ever going to happen to me.

01:57:40 Speaker_09
Oh, but you know that happened to that little girl or boy, I forget.

01:57:45 Speaker_06
A little person.

01:57:46 Speaker_09
Yeah, a little person got buried alive at a beach. And like, it was like caving in on her.

01:57:54 Speaker_06
Like when kids bury each other.

01:57:55 Speaker_09
Yeah, they were like playing in and they went so deep and then it like, and that kid died. And they're like standing around like trying to get her out and they keep, I know.

01:58:05 Speaker_06
Stop telling the story.

01:58:07 Speaker_09
What did you say? You're not my friend today.

01:58:26 Speaker_06
Yes, I am. Okay. And we're best friends.

01:58:28 Speaker_09
I know. Phobophobia is an excessive fear of acquiring a phobia. That sounds like something I would have.

01:58:34 Speaker_06
Yeah, you might have that. Yeah, like even hearing about phobias will give you the phobias. Yeah, exactly.

01:58:39 Speaker_09
Oh my God, there's one? You're so bad, you want to play this stupid video so bad.

01:58:45 Speaker_06
I have anxiety about how many phobias there are. I mean, I think if I know how many are on the list.

01:58:48 Speaker_09
So you have a fear of lists.

01:58:50 Speaker_06
Lists that are too long, yes. Or Taylor Swift's entire commencement speech. I have certain fears of things being very long, I guess.

01:58:59 Speaker_09
Oh my God, except not.

01:59:00 Speaker_06
Do you have any real fears? I do have a single phobia, maybe more than one, but there's one I know about. I am a bit, I'm a bit claustrophobic.

01:59:07 Speaker_09
Yeah, you are. I'm not.

01:59:08 Speaker_06
You're not at all. I don't think. You like being confined? No. Trapped?

01:59:12 Speaker_09
No, I wouldn't say I like it, but I don't have an excessive fear of it.

01:59:16 Speaker_06
If I start to get the hunch, like, oh, we're going to be locked in, I get really panicky. Have you ever watched spelunking?

01:59:23 Speaker_09
Ew, I'm never watching that.

01:59:25 Speaker_06
You know what it is?

01:59:25 Speaker_09
Yeah, isn't that like water-based?

01:59:28 Speaker_06
No, they're exploring caves and they're going in these tunnels that are getting tighter and tighter. And I'm like, how can you possibly enjoy that?

01:59:39 Speaker_09
Right.

01:59:39 Speaker_06
It fucking freaks me out to no end. Or that famous, There was a book and a doc and all kinds of stuff. It was two climbers. One fell on a crevasse.

01:59:50 Speaker_09
Oh, 127 hours.

01:59:51 Speaker_06
No, that was the one with Franco.

01:59:54 Speaker_11
Yeah.

01:59:55 Speaker_06
This guy was like fell into a crevice and was like looking up and there's no way out. And he's just there and there and there and there. And at some point he decides to go deeper into the crevice.

02:00:07 Speaker_06
and he found a fucking tunnel that led him out of the ice pack, and he ended up living. But the notion of having to decide to go even deeper into the crevice, I'm like, that is, oh. We gotta right the ship here.

02:00:24 Speaker_06
I'm panicked, and a lot of people are panicked. Let's hear a couple more.

02:00:29 Speaker_09
Okay, this one's not scary.

02:00:32 Speaker_05
Fear of being hugged.

02:00:33 Speaker_09
Unless you have this. Abiphobia, it's a fear of palindromes. Yeah, there's like interesting things out there. There are. Okay, I guess I'll stop. Hold on.

02:00:46 Speaker_06
Okay. Florophobia.

02:00:49 Speaker_09
Philophobia, fear of love. Oh. That's a sad one.

02:00:54 Speaker_06
I don't understand that one.

02:00:56 Speaker_09
Well, you don't have it.

02:00:58 Speaker_06
Okay, we ready for Steven Seagal?

02:00:59 Speaker_09
Oh my God, sure. Okay.

02:01:02 Speaker_07
I was, In Kazakhstan, I think, I was somewhere crazy in the world the other day, maybe six months ago, something like that. And there was a big Kyokushinkai, how do you say in English, like... A gathering or a convention?

02:01:15 Speaker_07
Well, yeah, a convention or something like that. They were doing all this, you know, demonstrations and fighting and competition and... All the old senpai, all the old Kyokushinkai masters were there. And they saw me come in, this was like chilling.

02:01:30 Speaker_07
And they were like, oh, you know, he's here, he's here. And they made me come and sit with the other masters and they introduced me as their senpai. Wow, what a tremendous honor.

02:01:41 Speaker_07
tremendous one who are in their 60s and their 70s who could kill most of the guys who think they're great warriors that are in their 20s or 30s.

02:01:51 Speaker_06
Kill them instantly.

02:01:54 Speaker_07
But that's stuff that most people who will hear this will go, oh come on, that's a joke. Yeah, count me in. Well, amongst real martial arts masters, it's not a joke. Exactly.

02:02:06 Speaker_07
I mean, I'd say, for example, one of my favorite martial arts masters ever, Sosei Masayama, who invented Kyokushin karate. There's a man who passed away.

02:02:13 Speaker_06
I'm going to pause it there and just say the notion that he says, how do you say in English? What are you fucking talking? You're acting like English isn't your first language.

02:02:21 Speaker_09
I know, that's the part.

02:02:23 Speaker_06
That guy goes on to tell the story of a great master. Yeah. And of course, Steven goes, He was a very close personal friend of mine. I know. It's endless. How do you say in English?

02:02:34 Speaker_06
And he was like, he stopped himself just short of doing like a really bad Asian accent. He's like, yeah, I walked in.

02:02:40 Speaker_09
Well, don't do it. Okay. Jesus Christ. Okay. Love you.

02:02:51 Speaker_06
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02:03:21 Speaker_06
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