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Episode: Julia Louis-Dreyfus on doing death, truth-telling in comedy and getting wiser (from On with Kara Swisher)

Author: TED
Duration: 00:41:20

Episode Shownotes

Actor Julia Louis-Dreyfus is most famous for her comedic TV characters Elaine Benes in Seinfeld and Selina Meyer in Veep. But in recent years, she's been showing her dramatic chops, including in her latest film, Tuesday, in which she takes on grief, denial and death. She's also been winning awards

as the host of her podcast Wiser Than Me. In this episode from On with Kara Swisher, Kara and Julia discuss how in-depth conversations with iconic older women have radicalized her, her concerns about the commercialization of art films and why she thinks comedy is risky — but still very much possible.We hope you enjoy this episode of On with Kara Swisher. Find more wherever you get your podcasts. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Full Transcript

00:00:11 Speaker_03
Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. We've had a slew of power women on On and today we're keeping up that streak. Comedian and actor Julie Louis-Dreyfus.

00:00:24 Speaker_03
She's obviously a comedy legend. I'm an enormous fan. She's won 11 Emmys, a record of 8 she got for playing some of TV's most iconic female characters.

00:00:34 Speaker_03
on three different sitcoms, Elaine Bennis in Seinfeld, Christine Campbell in The New Adventures of Old Christine, and, of course, Vice President Selina Meyer in Veep. I don't know which one I like the most. I like all the characters.

00:00:47 Speaker_03
I suspect Selina's my favorite character because she's real, actually. I've met people like her. But my kids like Seinfeld. I love Seinfeld. It stays fresh even today. And she's probably my favorite character on that show besides

00:01:01 Speaker_03
Jerry Stiller and her scene, if you haven't seen it, it's on YouTube of her and Jerry Stiller cracking each other up is one of the finest bits of comedy I've ever seen.

00:01:10 Speaker_03
She's been honored with the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor and the National Medal of Arts. She is a national treasure, obviously. And now she's winning awards for her new podcast, Wiser Than Me, where she gets life lessons from women over 70.

00:01:24 Speaker_03
Jane Fonda, Fran Lebowitz, Gloria Steinem, Patti Smith, Anne Lamott, who I also recently spoke to, they've talked about what they've learned and how they've coped with the hard stuff, including death and grief, which is also the focus of Julia's latest film, Tuesday.

00:01:38 Speaker_03
And so fittingly, our question this week comes from psychotherapist and host of Where Should I Begin podcast, Esther Perel. I'm excited to talk to her and I think you'll be excited to hear from her. Hi. Hi, Cara. How you doing?

00:02:04 Speaker_03
Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it.

00:02:06 Speaker_05
Oh, my goodness. It's my pleasure.

00:02:08 Speaker_03
The movie was astonishing, I have to say. You were fantastic in it.

00:02:12 Speaker_05
Oh, thank you very much.

00:02:13 Speaker_03
And I love anything about death, so I'm very excited about it.

00:02:16 Speaker_05
Yeah, I do too, actually.

00:02:18 Speaker_03
But first, I want to talk about the podcast, your podcasting empire. Hardly. You're doing really well. You just wrapped up the second season of Wiser Than Me, which you interview women over 70. A lot of celebrities have podcasts these days, obviously.

00:02:33 Speaker_03
A lot of them are different from yours. For example, I think Smart List is basically a buddy comedy. Talk about how you decided to do this and the way you conceived of it.

00:02:44 Speaker_05
Well, I watched the Jane Fonda documentary. I don't know if you've seen it. Sure have. Yeah. Yeah. It's phenomenal, in my view. And I was just riveted. And after watching that, I really did think, oh, God, where are all the old women?

00:03:03 Speaker_05
We're not hearing from these women. I mean, we are really not hearing from them. And I wish there was a place where we could just only hear from old women. And so that's where it sort of began. And I thought, well, maybe I'll do it.

00:03:20 Speaker_05
And that's how it started. It was born out of a curiosity, not any desire to do a podcast necessarily, but just to actually hear from older women. And then I sort of developed it with my college roommate, and it's been a real

00:03:40 Speaker_05
a labor of love and passion. It's been very popular. It's very high up on the rankings. Were you surprised by that? You know, I was surprised by it because I wasn't really thinking about how it would do.

00:03:52 Speaker_05
I was just thinking about doing it, if that makes sense. I wasn't going after it with that ambition. That doesn't mean I'm not ambitious, of course, but it really means that I was just trying to think of people that would be interesting to talk to

00:04:07 Speaker_05
at great length.

00:04:08 Speaker_03
How do you look at the podcast medium as a way to do that? You know, a lot of people get in and they get out of it pretty quickly, because it's hard. It's a marathon. It's a real marathon.

00:04:18 Speaker_05
Yeah.

00:04:19 Speaker_03
And some make money, some don't. But it can be very lucrative. I've had a really good run in that regard. But how do you look at it as a medium to communicate this? Because there's lots of ways you could have done this.

00:04:32 Speaker_03
You could have had a talk show, television. Yeah, I know.

00:04:35 Speaker_05
Well, I mean, I guess because sort of like the conversation we're having now, which feels relaxed, if you and I were in front of an audience right now and having to talk, and I was in hair and makeup and all that crap, it's a different, it's an absolutely different content of conversation.

00:04:54 Speaker_05
And I actually enjoy talking to people on their podcasts when we sort of get into depth about things, because I just find it interesting to communicate that way. Right, conversation. Yes. And so I thought that this

00:05:10 Speaker_05
medium would be conducive to those kinds of intimate conversations where we maybe get a little bit more underneath period. Also, we don't video the podcast at all.

00:05:26 Speaker_05
So there's no pressure on these women who may have a feeling of self-consciousness because they're older. I'm not suggesting they should, of course, but in case, just to make it as relaxed as possible.

00:05:38 Speaker_03
Right, so a conversation, you know, this sort of my dinner with Andre kind of vibe to it. How do you pick the subjects and the approach? Like, what does your goal say with Jane Fonda? You talked to her about ambition.

00:05:49 Speaker_05
Well, it's really dictated by the women themselves. I do, with my team's help, I do an enormous amount of research in prep, so that I can come to this conversation and not squander it.

00:06:06 Speaker_05
So it's really their lives and what strikes me is interesting to delve into I mean talking to somebody like Isabel Allende versus Bonnie Raitt or Patti Smith or Beverly Johnson, these are, you know, they've had wildly varied lives from one another.

00:06:25 Speaker_05
So it's just, it's entirely based on their experience. That said, though, there are a particular set of questions that I love to hear them answer. I mean, I always open by asking, how old they are and how old do they feel.

00:06:39 Speaker_05
And there are all these subjects that I like to delve into, like loss, for example, ambition. And then at the end, I might say things like, you know, what would you say to your 21-year-old self?

00:06:52 Speaker_05
you know, what do you wish you'd said no or yes to, that kind of thing.

00:06:55 Speaker_03
Yeah, so you talked about being radicalized by these women, or more radicalized by these women, I think that was the quote. Who have you been most influenced by and what surprised you in the interviews, which you didn't expect?

00:07:09 Speaker_03
I don't know, Isabel Allende is a crack up, I don't know what.

00:07:12 Speaker_05
Well, Isabel Allende, my God, what a phenomenal human being. I was struck by her complete joy in life. I was overcome by it. And she talked about being in her 80s as being the best thing ever, and she meant it.

00:07:36 Speaker_00
I have a very good life. I'm very happy. Oh God, that's so nice. I'm so happy, Julia, really. I'm happy to be alive. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be looking through my window right now.

00:07:48 Speaker_00
I live very close to a lagoon, and I see the ducks and the geese, and it's fantastic. What do you think the best part about being your age is? That you don't have to please anybody. Oh, yeah.

00:08:02 Speaker_00
Only the people you love and the people you care for, but not the world, not everybody else. You don't have to follow anybody's lead. You don't have to follow fashion or nothing.

00:08:14 Speaker_00
If I try to look good, it's because it pleases me, not because I'm trying to please anybody else. I don't care, really. And that was just like, oh my God.

00:08:24 Speaker_05
It was a completely different lens through which to consider aging. Gloria Steinem, who I spoke to for this season, obviously was just... extraordinary.

00:08:42 Speaker_05
She actually talked about how as you age, and I'm going to butcher this, she was talking about how as you age, your inner girl becomes more realized. Do you think that women become more radical as they get older?

00:08:59 Speaker_01
I suppose nothing is true all the time, but I do think it's possible that it's often true because we outlive the stereotypical expectations of marriage and family and the subordinate role, if that's still around.

00:09:17 Speaker_01
I mean, I think just as we are maybe more ourselves when we're before 10 or 11 years old, And we're little girls who are climbing trees and saying, you know, I know what I want. I know what I think. And the feminine role hasn't descended upon us yet.

00:09:36 Speaker_01
We may also be more ourselves at the other end of the feminine role. And I always think it would be great if an army of gray-haired women could take over the Earth.

00:09:46 Speaker_05
Well, then the Earth would be a safe place, in my view.

00:09:50 Speaker_01
It really would be.

00:09:52 Speaker_05
It would be much better. It would be much better. There is a theme with all of these women, all of them, which is a shedding of what's expected of you as a woman, which is particularly fascinating to me and important to realize.

00:10:08 Speaker_03
Yeah, I believe the technical term is no more fucks left to give. Thank you.

00:10:11 Speaker_05
But it's not necessarily a negative thing, right? No, it's fantastic. There's less bullshit. I say what I feel. I know what I know. I know more. And that's the whole conceit of the podcast. They know more.

00:10:29 Speaker_03
So come on, let's listen to them. Let's listen to them. Come on, woman. We'll get to your movie in a minute. Come on, woman. That was the best end line, I have to say.

00:10:37 Speaker_03
One of the things that I think, the reason it works, this is a lot about you and you, how it changes your thinking, whether it's about the movie industry, women's rights, becoming more political.

00:10:46 Speaker_03
Have these conversations changed you, yourself, given you're looking for, you know, wisdom, you know, wiser than me, or is that wisdom being put to use in your own life?

00:10:58 Speaker_05
Well, I will say that my reflections afterwards, after I actually have these conversations, I think a lot about them.

00:11:07 Speaker_05
And I will often, or most often, write with my husband the story at the beginning of the podcast that sort of will be a thread into the conversation. And so I would say, certainly, it's

00:11:24 Speaker_05
I don't know if this is good or not, but I've always been a very private person in a lot of ways. And I've made a bit of a shift in terms of sharing aspects of myself. I don't know if I'm ultimately going to regret that.

00:11:40 Speaker_05
But I have done that in a way that I find surprising.

00:11:44 Speaker_03
Right. You realize you don't have that much time for regret anymore, so it's OK. It's fine if you let them out. But you also call your mom and talk to her about them. Oh, yeah. How does that go? Yeah.

00:11:56 Speaker_05
Well, this occurred to me to do when we were developing the show because my mother is very intelligent, curious. She's completely with it. She's 90 and she has been my She's been my beloved mother. I don't know what else to say.

00:12:15 Speaker_05
And she's very intellectual. And so I thought, my God, of all the women, I must, I must include my mother in this in some way. So the idea of downloading with my mom feels right because I download with my mom. And I enjoy her.

00:12:34 Speaker_05
I thought maybe people would enjoy her. And she's getting a huge kick out of it.

00:12:37 Speaker_03
Yeah, would you bring her on? I don't believe you have, correct? I think that would be, I'm waiting for that one, honestly. You are, that's something I'm considering, I suppose. I think you have to. I've had my son and my brother on and stuff.

00:12:51 Speaker_03
They've been some of the most popular ones, which is interesting. Really? Especially my son. He's very wise for a young person. But I would love to hear your mom and her thoughts on it.

00:13:01 Speaker_00
I think it would be really good.

00:13:03 Speaker_03
Because she's a character in your podcast. I mean, podcasts are about characters. In any case, we got a question this week from someone who's a fan of your podcast, psychotherapist Esther Perel, host of the podcast, Where Should I Begin?

00:13:15 Speaker_03
I don't know if you listen to it, it's fantastic. And you'll hear her question for you.

00:13:21 Speaker_02
Oh, God.

00:13:22 Speaker_03
It's okay.

00:13:23 Speaker_02
Hello, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. So much of your work on the podcast is about starting conversation that the world needs to listen in on. and that really resonates with me.

00:13:36 Speaker_02
How do you think about the role of community, of the collective, in working through some of the very issues that you are processing on the show? The importance of the collective in addressing aging, or loss, or love, or grief, hope, desire.

00:13:57 Speaker_02
What is the relationship between the I and Thou in the process in the processing of such complicated existential wonders. Thank you. She's a therapist.

00:14:09 Speaker_03
She's a well-known therapist. I know, I know. And she's a fantastic.

00:14:13 Speaker_05
Cara, you answer it.

00:14:17 Speaker_03
Are you not smart enough?

00:14:20 Speaker_05
I'm a dumbass. No, you are not. You said that to me. I couldn't understand her. You are not a dumbass. Stop. No, I'm making a joke.

00:14:26 Speaker_00
I know I'm not a dumbass.

00:14:27 Speaker_05
But well, I mean, to be honest with you, I think she answered the question in her question. She was talking about community and the collective, the we, in terms of dealing with issues and addressing loss and love and so on and so forth.

00:14:43 Speaker_05
And the answer is, yes, the collective is the way out. I think actually her question speaks to something that's come out of these conversations, actually, particularly with my mother, which is the key is connect, connect, connect.

00:14:58 Speaker_05
I don't mean plug your computer in. I mean, connect with human beings. There's everything to be said for community and everything not to be said about isolation. And we're in a land of isolation now, which is paralyzing and toxic.

00:15:14 Speaker_05
So I think there's nothing but value in finding ways to take action to connect with other people in every sense.

00:15:23 Speaker_03
I think people are desperate for it. Desperate for it. And agreement. One of the reasons I always say one of my podcast pivot works is because I'm connecting with a man who I disagree with in a way that's kind. And we disagree a lot.

00:15:38 Speaker_03
And people are desperate for that. They're desperate.

00:15:40 Speaker_05
They're desperate for a kind conversation. You know? Yeah. It's funny. I remember once, this is neither here nor there, but it was a while back and I was

00:15:52 Speaker_05
By myself, it was a weekend where I sort of didn't have plans, and my husband wasn't there, and I was sort of alone.

00:15:58 Speaker_05
And I remember that I went to the grocery store, and I found myself having an in-depth conversation with the checkout woman at the register. And I started asking her questions about her life.

00:16:12 Speaker_05
And I realized afterwards what was happening, which was I was lonely. And I became very, very interested in her life. Why wouldn't I be interested? Everybody has an interesting life. But I remember noting that, like, oh, that's interesting.

00:16:31 Speaker_05
I really sought a human being out.

00:16:35 Speaker_03
No, it's an important story. Years ago, you know what your podcast reminds me of? Spalding Gray did a show at the Kennedy Center many years ago where he brought people from the audience and just interviewed them, just randomly.

00:16:49 Speaker_03
And it was brilliant because he said, everyone's story is interesting if you just talk to them. And it was, you know, he had his own troubles, as you know, how his life ended, but it was the most riveting conversations I've ever seen because

00:17:03 Speaker_05
And that's what you're talking about here. And that's what I'm talking about. And by the way, that's something my mother does. And to sometimes great frustration to me and my sisters, because she'll talk to anybody and ask them everything.

00:17:21 Speaker_05
And as a result, she's a vibrant human being. But it does mean it takes a while to get out of any situation. We'll be back in a minute.

00:17:39 Speaker_03
So speaking of connection, let's talk about Tuesday, dealing with existentialism and grief. Just to let people know, this is not a comedy, but it is funny in many ways. It's actually very funny.

00:17:53 Speaker_03
Giant Julie Louise Dreyfus is my favorite, Julie Louise Dreyfus. You handle your tallness really well, but also, and smallness, you didn't like smallness much, but you going through the grass as a tiny thing was,

00:18:07 Speaker_03
Ugh, I felt the borrowers all over again. Anyway, but it's about death, literally in the form of a talking macaw, I believe. That's the bird.

00:18:15 Speaker_03
I have not seen a movie like this in, I think, for some reason, the John Malkovich movie was the last one it reminded me of, of the feelings I had during it. It's obviously a fantasy. It's surreal in many ways.

00:18:27 Speaker_03
It feels, you know, like a Garcia Marquez book or something like that. Can you talk a little bit what attracted you and the reason for taking it on?

00:18:37 Speaker_05
So the script was sent to me by A24, and it was crazy bananas, this script. But the themes of the film, the parent-child bond, grief,

00:18:54 Speaker_05
loss, death, dying, acceptance, um, denial, uh, all of these themes are, are incredibly interesting to me as a human being. And so then I met with, uh, Dina Opucic, who is the writer director, Croatian woman. This is her first feature film.

00:19:13 Speaker_05
And I met with her just to get a sense of, of course, of who she was and what her intentions were. And if I, felt comfortable in her hands. And I came away feeling very trusting of her and signed up. God, you know, she's quite an artist.

00:19:36 Speaker_05
I'm sure I know you'll be hearing more from her as a filmmaker. And the animation, of course, was It was paramount that the animation within the film was expert.

00:19:45 Speaker_03
Of the bird.

00:19:46 Speaker_05
Yes. But I do want to say that within the film, as you say, there's this sort of monster-like bird, macaw thing that is representing death. And a lot of people think that was just CGI. In fact, it was not.

00:20:04 Speaker_05
It was played by an extraordinary actor, Orinze Kenne. He was a cast member with us. And then what the animators did was they used his performance and animated over him.

00:20:16 Speaker_05
And so I always like to give a shout out to Arince, because you're not actually necessarily seeing him, but you actually are very much seeing him.

00:20:23 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's interesting. It's like in Lord of the Rings. Because he was there. In that conversation you had at the table, I was like, the actor is sitting there with you. Correct. That's what I thought. That's what I figured. Amazing.

00:20:36 Speaker_03
Amazing performance, by the way. And disturbing at the same time, but also very funny. A very funny bird. But in the movie, a mother and daughter are basically having a conversation with death and about death together.

00:20:49 Speaker_03
You've been through a cancer treatment. You're a parent. I've had a stroke. My dad died. Talk about what you draw to understand about the depths of grief. Because in this case, you're dealing with someone else's death or impending death.

00:21:03 Speaker_05
Well, I've also lost people close to me. I've lost my dad. I lost my sister. And so, yeah, I'm certainly keenly aware of our mortal lives. So I brought all of that with me to this.

00:21:20 Speaker_05
But I think the first thing that really appealed to me about this was the ferocity of the parent-child bond, which it's undeniable and it's enormous.

00:21:32 Speaker_05
And so I enjoyed that aspect of the script, the lengths that a mother would go to to keep death away. And it really explores that, including, by the way, denial, denial of a reality.

00:21:48 Speaker_03
Yes, not being there.

00:21:49 Speaker_05
Yes.

00:21:50 Speaker_03
Not being there. I mean, you know, it's interesting, when I heard the description of it, I almost didn't want to watch it, because I have kids, and the idea of... I just... I... I know. You know what I mean?

00:22:00 Speaker_03
It's one of those things that I was thinking the other day, right before I watched it, I'm like... I have so many kids, I've upped my chances of being upset. You know what I mean?

00:22:08 Speaker_03
I don't know why it popped into my brain, but one of the things, grief of knowing you're going to lose someone. Now, we know that with older people, but it's harder. Your character, Zora, tries to avoid her daughter.

00:22:20 Speaker_03
selling off bits and pieces of their beautiful things. And then you go to the other extreme, which is barbecuing and trying to eat death, literally, being forced by death to confront it.

00:22:32 Speaker_03
Can you talk a little bit about that, a little more about the parent-child bond? Because your character's at the center of that, and your child is kind of, Zora's really the child in the relationship in a weird way. Right.

00:22:46 Speaker_05
That's what is the dysfunction. Certainly at the start of the film is Zora's daughter, whose name is Tuesday, is really parenting. her mother.

00:22:58 Speaker_05
And the journey, well, there are many journeys within the film, but one of the biggest journeys, I think, is the flip.

00:23:06 Speaker_05
So that by the end of the film, Zora comes to realize how she must parent her child in a functional way, which includes accepting the realities of her situation.

00:23:22 Speaker_03
One of the things that's striking is not knowing the pain her daughter is in, not being aware of the pain until she can hear her as having eaten death. So she has this hearing.

00:23:32 Speaker_05
Yeah. Well, she has a, I mean, it's very symbolic. It's very metaphorical. It's because of the transformation that happens.

00:23:42 Speaker_05
We're talking about this in such a way I hope it's clear to people listening because what Zora does is she fights death in an effort to keep death away and then ultimately sort of becomes death. She learns by doing death.

00:23:58 Speaker_05
She learns by doing and then realizes that as death she has to come to her daughter. oh my God, I can't stand, even saying it, it still upsets me, I can't stand it.

00:24:12 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's like a death doula in a weird way.

00:24:15 Speaker_05
Yes, which of course there is, which I think is remarkable. And God, I think about that a lot. When I talked with Isabel Allende, and we're talking about this thing called death, and I was remarking, because I had the,

00:24:34 Speaker_05
actually, the gift of being able to be with my dad when he passed away. And I was very much struck by how that waiting and being with him was not dissimilar from waiting for some child to be born, for a birth.

00:24:50 Speaker_05
And the similarity in those transitions are similar. And I'm not suggesting that one is as joyful as the other, but they are, from a life living point of view, I was very... And she was talking about that as well.

00:25:09 Speaker_03
Well, what's interesting about it is she becomes joyful when she's doing death, right? That night of putting people at rest.

00:25:18 Speaker_03
The people screaming in the background, and you don't get to see a lot of it except for a couple of scenes, was very funny, even though it wasn't funny. You know what I mean? Like, ah! And the bird, bang, bang, bang. I was in hysterics with that.

00:25:31 Speaker_03
I was like, oh, that's what would happen if death went away. Death took a holiday, right? Speaking of which. But she gets joyful by doing death. Would you like to have that power? Would you ever? Fuck no. Are you kidding me? Really? I kind of would. You would?

00:25:48 Speaker_03
Kara, really? Yeah, because it's kind. It's a kindness. That macaw isn't cruel. That macaw is kind.

00:25:56 Speaker_05
That's too much for me to bear. Yeah? The pain. I can't, I can't handle it. I pass on that job opportunity in real life. All right. Okay. All right.

00:26:04 Speaker_03
Well, you can do the life part. You can do the, it's, they're linked together.

00:26:07 Speaker_03
Um, so one of the things, I have just one more question about the movie, um, and then I want to talk a little bit about your longer career, but you finished this movie three years ago, as I said, looking back, does, does the idea of come on woman still resonate?

00:26:21 Speaker_03
Well, actually, it's get up, woman. Get up, woman. Excuse me. Get up, woman. Sorry.

00:26:25 Speaker_05
And yes, it's almost a mantra. I think it works. It certainly applies to my life. What's the alternative? You've got to get up. You've got to keep, I mean, we have a limited amount of time. Let's go. Let's get it done.

00:26:50 Speaker_03
I want to talk a little bit about your career in comedy. You made a joke at the Mark Twain Award in 2018 about being a dramatic actress. That was part of the bit. Damn you, Peter Hall. What a mistake.

00:27:02 Speaker_03
But it would be hard not to finish up with a legacy as a comedic actress. We met at the award show where you won the Webby Podcast of the Year for Wiser Than Me. But in your long television career, you've won 11 Emmys.

00:27:13 Speaker_03
You're one of the few actors who has played not one, but three iconic television characters. Elaine Bennis, Christine Campbell, and Vice President Selina Meyer. How do you look at each character now?

00:27:24 Speaker_03
And to me, this is just me and you could have a different take. I'm just an audience member. They have a common as a need to be in the boys club. Am I getting that wrong? And all kidding aside, would it have been easier to be Portia?

00:27:38 Speaker_05
Well, I mean, all of the characters, the thread between them all is profound frustration, I think. And of course, aren't you frustrated sometimes? I mean, as a woman, isn't that, you know, it's like frustration is kind of a... for me, a driver.

00:27:57 Speaker_05
And it certainly is with all of these women. And I would say, you know, Selina Meyer in the most obvious and sort of ultimate of ways.

00:28:09 Speaker_05
Yeah, but you know, in that Mark Twain speech, and I was talking about being a dramatic actress, and you know, the truth is, is that I really do enjoy doing drama. And it's actually why I took on this

00:28:23 Speaker_05
role because I wanted to exercise that muscle again and have an opportunity to show that this is in my wheelhouse. So that joke about the quality of mercy is not strained was actually born out of a true place, truth be told.

00:28:42 Speaker_03
I'm not gonna wade you into the Seinfeld controversy, because I think that has nothing to do with you, but I'd love to know what you think is funny now.

00:28:51 Speaker_03
Everyone seems to have a theory, obviously, but what do you think is funny right at this moment we're in? That question's funny. I think there's a lot of talk about how comics can't be funny now. I think that's not true.

00:29:08 Speaker_03
I think comics are funnier than ever. No, that's bullshit. I think that's bullshit. Physical comedy and intellectual comedy and political comedy, I think, has never been more interesting, because there's so much to do. Well, yes, it's a ripe time.

00:29:22 Speaker_05
You know, comedy is risky, and it can be offensive. But that's what makes it so enjoyable, not that it's offensive, but that it's risky, that it can be very truth-telling and with risk.

00:29:41 Speaker_05
I personally don't buy the conceit that this is an impossible time to be funny. Maybe some people aren't laughing at your jokes, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be made.

00:29:51 Speaker_03
Yeah. So one of the things, Elaine is known for example, with the physical moves, although the dry retorts, or the shoves, or the dance, but also the retorts. And Selena, to me, is all feral facial expressions and wicked verbal cuts.

00:30:05 Speaker_03
Is it harder to do physical or intellectual comedy?

00:30:11 Speaker_05
They're of equal strain. The physical comedy sometimes, in my experience, is stuff that I've often found in rehearsal. So it takes a little exploring to find it. But I wouldn't say that it's hard. I just I would say it's as much fun.

00:30:34 Speaker_05
There's nothing more exciting than having really good material and then elevating it, if you can. And if you do it physically, it's just delish.

00:30:44 Speaker_03
Absolutely. I have a couple more questions. Seinfeld in particular, for example, which I think you'll probably be best known for, even though I preferred Veep, I know it sounds, I love Seinfeld too, but it's having this renaissance on Netflix.

00:30:55 Speaker_03
A lot of young people are watching the show. My son was like, have you heard of Seinfeld? I'm like, yeah. Why do you think it holds up and that that younger generations are connecting?

00:31:07 Speaker_05
Well, I don't know why they're That it's having this resurgence. I'm delighted that it is I am it holds up because it's It's the human condition. It's undeniably funny. It wasn't a fad ish it speaks to really universal truths and Period.

00:31:30 Speaker_05
It's just like a great show and it'll always be a great show.

00:31:34 Speaker_03
Is there a show, if you had to introduce someone to it, that you would show them first? There's obviously the famous ones, Not That There's Anything Wrong With That, Master of Your Own Domain. Is there any show you would say, look at this one?

00:31:48 Speaker_05
Well, I don't know, probably something from seasons four or five when we started to really get our stride.

00:31:57 Speaker_05
It's interesting to watch this show because it, not that I do, I don't really watch the show, but when it first started, it was slow by comparison and the pace started to pick up and it became more, It just became snappier as it went along.

00:32:14 Speaker_05
Maybe the Soup Nazi, the Soup Nazi was a good one. I think the Briss was one of my favorites, the Briss.

00:32:19 Speaker_03
Oh, really? I love the Briss. That's hilarious. And the double dipping. There's so many, the Subway episode. But one of the things that's interesting is Netflix reportedly paid more than $500 million for the Seinfeld rights for five years.

00:32:31 Speaker_03
The contract started in 2021. Did you see any of that money? Not one cent. Okay. How do you feel about that?

00:32:41 Speaker_05
Fantastic.

00:32:50 Speaker_03
I would love you to go on about that. Alana Glaser, who was pretty critical about streaming services. What's your take? You're going into AI next for free, just so you know, but go ahead.

00:33:02 Speaker_05
Good, because I know nothing about it. Look, here's my take on all of this. I'm worried about the corporatization of arts.

00:33:19 Speaker_05
For example, this movie I made, Tuesdays, with A24, one of the very few, if not the last, remaining independent studio making unusual films. I'm worried about that because it's now a lot of executives. calling.

00:33:39 Speaker_05
And there have always been these executives, but they haven't been on top of each other like a layer cake. And I'm very worried about what that represents for good art outside the box. Because we're not making widgets here.

00:33:57 Speaker_05
Good ideas are often, well, first of all, they're hard to find. And they I can tell you one thing, they're not found by a corporation. Good artful ideas, in my view.

00:34:09 Speaker_03
Yeah, even though you're a network note, according to Jerry Seinfeld, that was very funny. Yeah, that was funny. That was fantastic. But in 2020, you signed an overall deal with Apple TV Plus to develop new products as executive producer and actor.

00:34:23 Speaker_03
You've been producer on many of your shows. What does that mean exactly? And how does the deal differ from the ones you've cut over the past three decades?

00:34:31 Speaker_05
Well, first of all, I didn't produce Tuesday, for example, but I do very much like to produce the work that I do because it just gives me more control over the product.

00:34:44 Speaker_05
I've been doing this now long enough so that I think I have experience that's useful as a producer. That's important to me. I no longer have this deal at Apple. It ran out. It was finished.

00:35:01 Speaker_05
You know, to be honest with you, I mean, they're all perfectly nice, but nothing came out of it. And that was too bad, but it just didn't, which is often the case with deals like this.

00:35:10 Speaker_03
Yes, indeed. So what do you do now? Do you go bring your projects, your production company?

00:35:15 Speaker_05
I don't even.

00:35:16 Speaker_03
You don't even. No.

00:35:17 Speaker_05
I don't want the headache of that right now. I just don't. I'd rather do things on a case-by-case basis. I mean, I'm guessing, you know, probably, yes, I could have a production company. I could be developing material for myself or other people.

00:35:34 Speaker_05
That's not something ultimately that excites me. It's too much. I don't need a huge universe like that. I'm not Oprah.

00:35:43 Speaker_03
Yeah. You're not going to Reese Witherspoon it, for example.

00:35:45 Speaker_05
I'm not going to, and this is not my way to disparage them in any way. I'm just saying that's not who I am. I approach projects very specifically, and that's how I roll. That's how I roll. May I ask what you're doing next? I don't know.

00:36:04 Speaker_03
Well, you've got a success story. I just finished a Marvel movie. Yeah, my son wants to know why you're in the Marvel movies. You turn into a villain from what he tells you.

00:36:13 Speaker_05
Well, I'm not allowed to say, Cara, because as you know, let me explain to you something. The Marvel Universe, if you're in it, you have to sign an NDA every three and a half minutes.

00:36:25 Speaker_05
And so if I say anything to you right now, a Marvel executive will come and shoot me in the head as I'm speaking to you. And possibly shoot you. He can try. He can try. Yeah, you'll take him on good. I'll take him on good. Are you kidding?

00:36:41 Speaker_05
But anyway, I did wrap Thunderbolts. And so that is that I have coming out next year. But in terms of what am I shooting next, I'm not sure.

00:36:49 Speaker_03
I don't know. So let me ask just two more, three more questions very quick. Politics, you're a moderator at the 2020 Democratic Convention, which is some very good jokes, some of which apparently they cut. You can comment on that if you'd like.

00:37:04 Speaker_05
It was broadcast news to the 10th power doing that thing. I am here to tell you. It was cuckoo bananas. It was COVID. The DNC talking to comedy writers, talking to, I mean, it was nuts, fun.

00:37:22 Speaker_05
Ultimately, I was delighted to have done it, although terrified.

00:37:25 Speaker_03
Yeah, so what are you doing this go-round? There's a campaign happening. I don't know if you know that. There's a campaign happening, presidential. Oh, really? And who's running, Cara? It's a rerun. Oh, I've seen that. Not like this. Not like this.

00:37:42 Speaker_03
It could be worse. It could be worse. I don't know. Could it be worse? Yes, I just interviewed Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez last week, and she was like, I'll be arrested, as if it was like Tuesday, speaking of Tuesday. Yeah, and she quite meant it.

00:37:59 Speaker_03
But do you want to get involved in politics?

00:38:01 Speaker_05
I am involved, yeah. I mean, at this point, not specifically with the convention, but I'm involved politically. I do a lot of work in down ballot races, in small races, and state legislatures, and so on.

00:38:16 Speaker_05
And I'm continuing to do that really with a vengeance as we speak. Down ballot is the thing now. It is.

00:38:23 Speaker_03
It's a lifeline, I think, to saving democracy. Absolutely. So I have two more questions at the end. I want to go back to Tuesday and Wiser. In the end of the film, there's a question of whether heaven or God or the afterlife exists or not.

00:38:36 Speaker_03
And the bird says something amazing.

00:38:39 Speaker_06
But there is an afterlife. The legacy, your memory. This, this is Tuesday's afterlife. How you live it is how she lives.

00:39:06 Speaker_03
What do you think of that? What's your echo? Besides an Oscar, obviously, and the Oscar goes to?

00:39:12 Speaker_05
I don't... My echo... Well, I'm going to say something very Pollyanna-ish. My echo is my two boys and them being good human beings and good citizens. If they are, then I've... My echo is good and pure. That's my answer, period.

00:39:33 Speaker_05
This other crap doesn't matter.

00:39:34 Speaker_03
Yeah, I just gave that answer to someone, and they were surprised. I was like, that's the only thing. Why would you be surprised?

00:39:39 Speaker_05
It's so fundamental. I know. I was like, just them. That's it. Just them, of course. None of this other stuff is meaningful in the same way.

00:39:47 Speaker_03
It's interesting, but not meaningful. You're right. The last question. You start every episode of your podcast with a story about your life. I think you should continue to do that. I know you're private, but I think it resonates with people.

00:39:58 Speaker_03
It resonates with me, certainly. Are you writing a memoir? No, I'm not. If you did, what would the title be?

00:40:05 Speaker_05
The title would be, what should the title be? Question mark. That's the title.

00:40:10 Speaker_03
Okay. All right. I think you should. I just pulled that out of my ass. I like it. I like it. I like it. I like it. I like it. Anyway, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. And I do hope you do win the Oscar.

00:40:23 Speaker_05
Might be nice. You're so nice. I'm so happy to be on this, to talk with you, because I listen to your podcasts frequently. And so to actually have this conversation, in-depth conversation with you, has been really a delight for me. So thanks a lot.

00:40:38 Speaker_05
I appreciate it.

00:40:38 Speaker_03
Thank you so much. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro Rossell, Kateri Yoakam, Jolie Myers, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Andrea Lopez-Cruzado, and Kate Furby. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda.

00:40:54 Speaker_03
And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, go ahead and do the Elaine Bennis dance. If not, get up, woman and man. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow.

00:41:08 Speaker_03
Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.