How Can We Discern Who Is a True or False Prophet? AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast BibleProject

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Episode: How Can We Discern Who Is a True or False Prophet?

Author: BibleProject Podcast
Duration: 01:15:22

Episode Shownotes

Sermon on the Mount Q+R 5 (E39) – Should we judge abusive behavior in others? Do we need faith in Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be righteous? And how can we discern who is a true or false prophet? In this episode, Tim and Jon respond to your questions

from episodes 30-38 in the Sermon on the Mount series, where we explored Matthew 7:1-27. Plus, we share more of the Lord’s Prayer song submissions. Thank you to our audience for your thoughtful contributions to this episode!View more resources on our website →Timestamps Chapter 1: “Are the opening and closing of the sermon at odds with each other?” (00:00-12:50)Chapter 2: “What about judging abusive behavior?” (15:52-27:04)Chapter 3: “How can we be peacemakers but avoid throwing pearls before swine?” (29:43-33:55)Chapter 4: “Is there a pattern in the Bible of angels guarding significant doorways?” (33:55-40:37)Chapter 5: “How can we discern who is a true or false prophet?” (43:40-59:46)Chapter 6: “How do you think Jesus connects the Spirit’s power with living righteously?” (1:01:41-1:11:44)Referenced ResourcesCheck out Tim’s library here.You can experience our entire library of resources in the BibleProject app, available for Android and iOS.Show Music “The Lord’s Prayer 3” by Poor Bishop Hooper“Thine Is the Kingdom” by Aryn Michelle“Creator of the Cosmos” by Andrew Eoff“The Lord’s Prayer” by Wes Crawford“Our Father (Lord’s Prayer)” by Peter AssadOriginal Sermon on the Mount music by Richie KohenBibleProject theme song by TENTSShow CreditsJon Collins is the creative producer for today’s show, and Tim Mackie is the lead scholar. Production of today’s episode is by Lindsey Ponder, producer; Cooper Peltz, managing producer; Colin Wilson, producer. Aaron Olsen edited today's episode and also provided our sound design and mix. Tyler Bailey was supervising engineer. JB Witty does our show notes, and Hannah Woo provides the annotations for our app.Powered and distributed by Simplecast.

Summary

In this episode of the BibleProject Podcast, Tim Mackie and Jon Collins explore the discernment of true versus false prophets as outlined in the Sermon on the Mount. They discuss the complexities of Jesus' teachings, particularly the apparent tension between the welcoming Beatitudes and stringent warnings that call for accountability within the community. The conversation addresses the necessity of judging abusive behaviors while upholding Jesus' command to avoid condemnation. Participants engage with listener questions to illuminate the real-life implications of these teachings, encouraging honest self-reflection, communal wisdom, and the importance of following Jesus' life pattern as a standard for discernment.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (How Can We Discern Who Is a True or False Prophet?) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:18 Speaker_16
It's him. Hello, Jonathan Collins. Hello. Hi. We're doing our final Q&R. We are. Question and response. Yeah, for Sermon on the Mount. Yeah. Which means this is Truly the end. The end of the end. The end of the end of the end.

00:00:35 Speaker_15
Yeah.

00:00:36 Speaker_17
Instead of the middle of the middle of the middle.

00:00:37 Speaker_15
Yeah, that's kind of weird.

00:00:38 Speaker_17
The center of the center of the center. Yep. Yeah, this is it for, well, we'll never stop talking about the summit of the mountain.

00:00:45 Speaker_16
No, the whole point is you never stop meditating on it. You keep it going all the time. Yeah. But we need to conclude our discussions on it for now. Move on to other things. To move on to the mountain. That's what we're working on now.

00:00:58 Speaker_16
But we want to hear from you all, and there's some wonderful questions. So many great questions. These questions are going to span from where in the Sermon on the Mount?

00:01:06 Speaker_16
Yeah, pretty much the last movement of the main body of the Sermon on the Mount, and then the conclusion. So chapter 7, basically. So from don't judge to the narrow gate and the false prophets and the two houses, that kind of stuff. All right.

00:01:22 Speaker_16
Those questions. Yeah. Should we just dive in? Let's do it. Okay. Alan, you have a great question about how the concluding movement of the Sermon on the Mount made you go back and reflect on the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount.

00:01:39 Speaker_16
And you noticed and felt some things that I thought were worth naming out loud and worth talking about. Let's hear it. Yep.

00:01:46 Speaker_14
Hello Bible Project. My name is Maggie and we live in Waco, Texas. My dad loves listening to your podcast. Here is my dad with his amazing question.

00:01:59 Speaker_13
Thanks, Maggie. My name is Alan, and here's my question. The opening and closing of the sermon seem to be in significant tension.

00:02:07 Speaker_13
The Beatitudes start out incredibly welcoming, including some deep emotional intelligence about how to humbly relate to others in God's kingdom. The concluding warnings are, to playfully understate it, less welcoming.

00:02:21 Speaker_13
They seem to close off the Christian community to all but the most committed. What wisdom could Jesus have for us in structuring the Sermon on the Mount in this way?

00:02:32 Speaker_16
Yeah. Yeah. Really perceptive question.

00:02:35 Speaker_15
Yeah.

00:02:36 Speaker_17
Can I make a counter argument? Please. I think some of the Beatitudes are welcoming. Sure. Some of them are actually pretty demanding, right? Pure of heart. Yeah, sure. Would be one. How good is life for the pure of heart?

00:02:53 Speaker_17
Hunger and thirsting for righteousness. Ah, maybe no, no, no. I take it back. That one's very welcoming. We all kind of feel that. Yeah, yeah. But maybe persecuted for righteousness.

00:03:04 Speaker_16
Yeah, yeah. How good is life for people who are experiencing suffering and hardship?

00:03:10 Speaker_17
Yeah, but you know what? Now that looking, talking about those, most of them are. pretty much like, hey, like you're feeling down and out, you're feeling poor in spirit, you're feeling... Or you are down and out. You are down and out. Yeah.

00:03:24 Speaker_17
So it is very welcoming.

00:03:25 Speaker_16
Yeah. That's very astute. Yeah. So maybe, yeah, let's name the Beatitudes are welcoming in the sense that Jesus, again, remember the narrative setting of the sermon from chapter four,

00:03:41 Speaker_16
He is going first and foremost as he announces the arrival of God's kingdom to the poor, the sick, the marginalized. That's who Matthew tells us has come around Jesus primarily. And so his message is from them. This is right out of Isaiah 61.

00:03:58 Speaker_16
God has anointed me with a spirit to announce good news to the poor. And Jesus took his orders. You know, the script. He was playing out the script of the messianic servant of Isaiah. Good news for the poor. And so the Beatitudes reflect that vibe.

00:04:15 Speaker_16
However, it's good to remember that the Beatitudes are an expression of that good news for the poor

00:04:22 Speaker_16
that fits within the larger governing idea of Jesus' overall message, which is the arrival of God's kingdom, which is good news for the poor and challenge for Israel.

00:04:35 Speaker_16
It's both good news and welcoming, but he's also here to bring a challenge to his current day. So I guess, Alan, as I thought about your question, Because there's many ways that we can hear the Sermon on the Mount.

00:04:49 Speaker_16
We can hear it thinking of our own church communities and whether the Beatitudes, you know, strike that welcoming invitation and you think about the role of a Jesus community, you know, in your neighborhood today.

00:05:03 Speaker_16
And the Beatitudes feel, they both sound and feel like good news. And the concluding challenges, like you said, Alan, seem to close off the Christian community to all but the most committed. That's the way you phrased it, Alan.

00:05:19 Speaker_16
And so I think you're right. It can have that effect, I think, now in our setting today. And that's why, at least for me, why I find so much value in looking at the time and place and the context where words were said.

00:05:31 Speaker_16
Because Jesus first uttered, you know, his message in a militarized occupied black territory to Israelites who were having a diversity of reactions about how to respond to the Roman occupation.

00:05:48 Speaker_16
And he was really committed to a nonviolent way of creative resistance against the powers and advocating like a really practical way forward for these communities of his that wouldn't go the way of military revolt.

00:06:06 Speaker_16
And so in that sense, the challenge that Jesus offers at the end, I think he's naming the high stakes. Again, if we don't first go to, he's talking about the afterlife.

00:06:19 Speaker_17
Oh, yeah. If he's not talking about building your house on the rock, meaning going to heaven and die.

00:06:25 Speaker_16
So remember the setting of Jesus' announcement of the arrival of God's kingdom was to Israel of his day, he said to the lost sheep of Israel who were being led astray by their current Israelite leaders.

00:06:37 Speaker_16
you know, like lemmings being led towards self-destruction by a conflict with Rome and cultural compromise with the nations.

00:06:46 Speaker_16
And so Jesus was advocating what he knew was a difficult path that would likely lead to persecution, which is the ninth beatitude, right? And Jesus clearly thought the stakes were high. He knew they were high.

00:07:04 Speaker_16
And he knew they were high marching into Jerusalem for Passover week. He knew that it was going to cost him his life to follow his way, to lead the way that he was asking others to follow.

00:07:16 Speaker_16
So I think for me, that's just been helpful that if we take the sermon out of that setting where Jesus first gave it, and we think of it primarily in terms of me following Jesus or not, and then that determines my afterlife destiny.

00:07:34 Speaker_16
Standing before God. Then I think we are gonna hear it as like the happy part, the happy, huggy, warm, Jesus comforts the poor at the beginning, and then he gets all like... Get your act together. Follow me or you die forever.

00:07:49 Speaker_16
By the end, it can totally have that vibe. And again, that's for me why it's important to look at the context of the sermon.

00:07:57 Speaker_17
But there's real life consequences to, especially how first century Jewish people were going to live and act with the Roman oppressors.

00:08:08 Speaker_17
Like there was a way forward that could lead to peace and righteousness, and there's a way forward that could lead to just devastation.

00:08:20 Speaker_16
So we could think about our own context and think about the real life implications for living the way of Jesus in our community and how that could... Yeah, I mean, I think to be faithful to what Jesus was doing in his setting would mean looking at our own communities and hearing Jesus warn us to say, if we don't embrace his way,

00:08:46 Speaker_16
it will actually set us and our communities on trajectories that will lead to conflict, culture, war, oppositionalism, like just, and- A crumbling house. A crumbling house, a crumbling community, and a crumbling life, you know?

00:09:07 Speaker_17
So that's real. So I love, but I love drawing attention to the tension, because that tension seems to exist. And you don't have to have your act together.

00:09:20 Speaker_17
In fact, when you're experiencing pain and suffering, you're likely kind of at the center of what God's doing. It's how it opens. But then it ends with, there are real stakes.

00:09:34 Speaker_16
Maybe actually the middle is about the choices that we make that shape our character over a long period of time and our outward behavior and our inward desires and motives. Like this is real life and the stakes are real.

00:09:49 Speaker_16
Like we're building a world individually and collectively with the lives and the characters that we have. And so it's sort of like at the end, Jesus is naming, this is real folks.

00:10:00 Speaker_16
Like it's so important to welcome and comfort and be open-minded and to include. But at the same time,

00:10:11 Speaker_16
it's good to remember that the stakes are real and how we build our lives and communities have real effects in the world that get out of our control pretty quick. And when the storm comes, what kind of life or community will endure?

00:10:27 Speaker_16
So I want to affirm, Alan, that you're right, that if you take the sermon out of that type of context, And then you just look at the warnings at the end about the narrow gate or the true and false prophets in the house.

00:10:44 Speaker_16
You could take those passages out and I can totally, I know church communities can use just those warnings to kind of create a real insular mindset and to be like, we're the ones who are good with Jesus, the rest of the world is going to hell in hand basket and too bad for them, you better follow our way or you're done for.

00:11:05 Speaker_16
And I guess the only control I know against that kind of reading is just to return to what Jesus was doing in his context, and then look for what are parallels in our context. And that's what we were just trying to do.

00:11:18 Speaker_17
Isn't another control, seeing how this is meant to be read and reread, it kind of cycles on each other? Yeah, good point. That the way that it's constructed is the real power of it is at the center, right? Oh, the prayer. The prayer at the center.

00:11:32 Speaker_17
And so the way that it's designed is designed to be kind of read almost Inverted like sure everything's pointing to the center.

00:11:41 Speaker_17
Yeah, where I think when we design a speech or an essay It's like when you close You're like, this is your concluding thought that really wraps everything up. Yeah, the end is at the center.

00:11:54 Speaker_15
Yeah, and

00:11:55 Speaker_17
And that's just not how it works. That's right. So this is an invitation to stop. It's very startling. The last line, and great as its fall, right? Of the whole sermon on the mount. Yeah, that's right. It's intense. Super intense.

00:12:06 Speaker_17
You're like, whoa, that's how we're going to end? Whoa. Yeah. But it's like this invitation then to come back to how good is life for the poor in spirit and to start again and then always get back to that center of

00:12:18 Speaker_16
Yeah, may your kingdom come. May your kingdom come, your will be done. Yeah. Yeah, as it is in the skies, so also on the land. So thanks for that thoughtful question, Alan. We didn't answer your question. We did respond to it.

00:12:34 Speaker_16
And I just, I appreciate you for asking it. And I think it's worth meditating on your question. I think leads to some good meditation.

00:12:43 Speaker_17
And what's his daughter's name?

00:12:44 Speaker_16
Maggie. Maggie. Thank you, Maggie. Oh, absolutely. A hundred percent. Thank you. Speaking of the Lord's prayer, We continued to get submissions of people's song versions of the Lord's Prayer.

00:13:00 Speaker_16
And I think we're going to actually listen to a couple more, like we did at the last Q&R.

00:13:04 Speaker_17
Yeah, let's listen to another one. Okay, cool.

00:13:21 Speaker_04
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Our Father Your kingdom come Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us as we forgive and lead us not there into temptation.

00:15:13 Speaker_16
Cool. I'd know that voice anywhere. Yeah, poor Bishop Hooper. Yeah, that is Leah Roberts. Yeah, with her husband, Jesse, together are the band Poor Bishop Hooper. They're incredible. Shameless advertisement for Jesse and Leah's work.

00:15:31 Speaker_16
They put all of the Psalms to music and all of the stanzas of Psalm 119. So it's actually ended up being like 160 plus songs. It's on repeat at our house a lot. So thank you, Leah and Jesse for that submission. Let's go to another question.

00:15:52 Speaker_16
Yeah, this question is from D in Phoenix.

00:15:58 Speaker_11
Hi John and Tim. I just wanted to, since I'm in the car, submit my question in writing and I hope you take my question. Thank you.

00:16:10 Speaker_16
I love it. OK, so D, I've got your question right here in writing. But I just love that you just want to say hi while you're sitting in traffic. Yeah. Somewhere in, I guess, Phoenix, Arizona. Probably with the AC on. Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally.

00:16:24 Speaker_16
OK, so you asked a fantastic question. Here it is. Hi, Tim and John. Hi, Dee. My question is about episode 30, about judging others. I need help understanding this text in the context of abusive relationships that often involve not naming abuse as abuse.

00:16:45 Speaker_16
I'm really struggling to hear Jesus' command to not judge as a word of life and not as a word of denying, ignoring, diminishing, or making room for emotional, physical, or spiritual abuse. Can you help me sort this out?

00:17:01 Speaker_16
What about judging wrong behavior? Thanks so much. Fantastic question. Yeah.

00:17:09 Speaker_17
Really good question. That's a really tough verse. And I think particularly I've just become less and less fond of the translation, do not judge. I know that's actually kind of the most literal. It is literally what he says. Sure.

00:17:21 Speaker_17
And maybe I just need to feel the discomfort in the way that he's feeling it. What we talked about was how the type of judging that's condemning someone and saying not like what you're doing is bad, but you're bad.

00:17:36 Speaker_17
Not what you're doing is wrong, but you're wrong. There's this kind of, I'm going to hold you to account. I'm going to be the final judge. I'm going to make sure you get what you deserve. Like that kind of attitude towards someone.

00:17:50 Speaker_17
And it's this interesting kind of blurry line between

00:17:55 Speaker_17
being able to identify when someone's doing something wrong and naming it, clearly naming it, which, you know, Jesus will go on to explain how to do in the next teachings, which you could tell us about, versus naming it versus then condemning the person.

00:18:14 Speaker_17
And that's a really hard thing to do, especially when it's someone who is creating violence towards you. I mean, that's,

00:18:23 Speaker_16
Yeah, what we tried to do mainly in our conversations was work with the meaning of Jesus' words within the context of the sermon, like the local context. And you're right, don't judge. And then he tells a parable about how you might

00:18:39 Speaker_16
evaluate an issue with, you're right, your sibling, and then wanna do something about it, and then really it was about then turning that back on yourself.

00:18:50 Speaker_16
And that experience of resetting your default, evaluating yourself first based on what you see in other people will change you over time, so that by the time Jesus gets to the end,

00:19:02 Speaker_16
being able to see clearly to help your sibling, you're going to be a different version of you.

00:19:08 Speaker_17
And that makes sense when, you know, you want to deal with someone's sarcasm or someone's like, you know, they're mean spirited.

00:19:16 Speaker_17
But if someone's abusing you, what's the wisdom in like, well, let me first think about how do I abuse others before just saying, hey, this is not okay. That's right.

00:19:26 Speaker_16
Okay. So this is a wonderful example of how, again, context and intent So Jesus clearly is mainly talking about situations where I'm noticing some fault in another person's behavior or character.

00:19:41 Speaker_16
And I'm in a position where I could render an evaluation in a way that could hurt them, damage them, and damage myself. So it's not really naming a situation of abuse in the context of the sermon.

00:19:56 Speaker_16
So that's in the local context, but it does open up that question, which is why D, you know, you're thinking of it. So this is another- You don't think in that local context people were, there was abuse?

00:20:09 Speaker_16
I'm just saying in the little story about the speck and the beam in the eye. Yeah, that comes next. That comes next. It seems like Jesus is primarily focusing on

00:20:18 Speaker_16
just issues where you're noticing a flaw in another person's character that doesn't affect you negatively. but rather just like the stuff of day-to-day life where you notice things about the people around you that annoy you or that kind of thing.

00:20:31 Speaker_16
So it's also important that the Sermon on the Mount be understood not on an island by itself, but that it's the first of five big teaching blocks of Jesus and Matthew, and that the five teaching blocks all interconnect in really significant ways.

00:20:48 Speaker_16
And when it comes to this topic, like what you're raising, D, Jesus explicitly addressed question that you're asking, but in teaching block number four, in what we call Matthew chapter 18.

00:21:03 Speaker_16
And what he's talking about is about life within the Jesus community. And it begins in chapter 18, where the disciples come and say like, Hey, Jesus, how are we going to know who's like the best? How do we know who's like the best follower of yours?

00:21:20 Speaker_16
Who's the greatest in the kingdom of the skies? And that's where he gets like the little child and he brings in a child and he totally like flips their value system.

00:21:29 Speaker_16
Then he talks about how if you cause any of these little ones to stumble, it'd be better to have a millstone around your neck. Then he talks about if your hand or foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. Whoa. Okay. High stakes.

00:21:46 Speaker_16
So apparently how we treat each other really matters to Jesus. High stakes. Then he tells a parable about how the father cares about the one lost sheep, like a shepherd who goes after the one, leaves the 99. Then he tells this little story.

00:22:05 Speaker_16
Let's say your brother or sister sins. You should go and point out their fault. So let's pause right there. Judge them. Now wait a minute. I thought you said don't judge. But then clearly,

00:22:20 Speaker_16
Like, he means that we observe each other's behavior within the community of faith, and if somebody's really doing something that hurts himself or another person, you go to them.

00:22:32 Speaker_16
So notice he presumes that you're going to have to perform some kind of evaluation. So this is a case when you do judge.

00:22:40 Speaker_16
So before you go do that, put Matthew 7, 1 through 3 into action, do the whole thing, look for the beam in your own eye, do all that. But then what he starts talking about is if somebody, if they listen to you, then fantastic.

00:22:56 Speaker_16
If they don't listen to you, take along one or two others, and then if they still refuse, widen the circle.

00:23:05 Speaker_16
No, he doesn't explicitly name this as they've sinned against you necessarily, but that does seem to be part of the broader context here about how we treat each other within the community of faith.

00:23:21 Speaker_16
So essentially what Jesus is working out here is like a model of conflict resolution when we hurt each other. And so I think it's really important, D, that first of all, Jesus says, if somebody

00:23:34 Speaker_16
has really acted wrongly towards another person or towards you within the community, you don't ignore it. You don't just say, well, Jesus said, don't judge. And so I'm not gonna say anything. You don't enable it.

00:23:46 Speaker_16
Yeah, you name it and you move towards it. But notice in this really thoughtful way. So first, like pure interpersonal, if it's between the two of us, I go to you.

00:23:58 Speaker_17
And if you- It's not okay how you're treating me.

00:24:00 Speaker_16
Yeah, and if you won't listen, then you don't just say, well, maybe I had the beam in my eye and I'm not seeing clearly. He says, no, get some others. And then invite them to help mediate, to help you each see clearly. And then if still,

00:24:20 Speaker_16
like this person can't see, or maybe you yourself might see clearly in that process and be like, oh man, I was like, took that way too personally or something.

00:24:29 Speaker_16
So I guess my point is you actually need all the teachings of Jesus to kind of interlock with each other. There's the mediation stage.

00:24:37 Speaker_17
And then after that is the stage of someone Yeah. I mean, this is really helpful for an abusive situation. Exactly. If someone's still like... Yeah. The third step is, if they still refuse to listen, don't have them in your circle.

00:24:50 Speaker_16
That's right. Yeah. Don't ever be alone with them again.

00:24:52 Speaker_17
Yeah.

00:24:53 Speaker_16
So I think it's a... Yeah. So Jesus doesn't envision that the principle of do not judge... Enables people who are abusers.

00:25:03 Speaker_17
Yeah, that's right. Or makes you feel guilty for needing I mean, it's sometimes really hard. It is. It's hard to confront people. It's always hard.

00:25:15 Speaker_17
And other people who don't want to be confronted can turn it on you and be like, no, you're the problem and you're being too judgmental. Exactly. Totally.

00:25:24 Speaker_17
And so I can see how you can then, wrestling with this teaching of Jesus, allow that to be a way to just let someone get away with that move.

00:25:34 Speaker_16
Yep, totally. And it has certainly happened many times in the history of the Jesus movement.

00:25:42 Speaker_16
where some, you know, whatever, a spouse or a church leader, you know, can use Jesus' teachings in Matthew 7 to like get themselves off the hook or to keep someone else in a vulnerable position, you know, under their, what they're doing, which is a form of abuse.

00:26:03 Speaker_16
And so it's just a good example where you need all the teachings of Jesus to clarify each other, But there are times when Matthew 7 really is what we need to hear and live by and withhold judgment.

00:26:16 Speaker_16
But then there are other times when what you need is Matthew 18 to really name what somebody is doing and deal with it. But also this increasing the circle of people involved, but only at the right steps.

00:26:31 Speaker_16
Because that also is about seeing, like maybe I'm not seeing clearly. And so what we need are some mediators.

00:26:39 Speaker_15
More eyes.

00:26:39 Speaker_16
Yeah, more eyes on it that can help us both. And if that doesn't resolve it, then at least it's not just on me anymore. And so there you go. That's the first thing I thought of.

00:26:52 Speaker_16
when I heard your question and for what it's worth, I think it also raises this helpful principle of hearing all of Jesus' teachings in concert with the others.

00:27:05 Speaker_17
We talked through this passage when we were at the Lord's Prayer about forgiving others.

00:27:09 Speaker_16
Yeah, we did.

00:27:10 Speaker_17
That's right. What does it mean to forgive someone? Especially someone who is not owning up to the thing that they did wrong. Yeah. And so you brought us to that passage. And I guess speaking of the Lord's Prayer,

00:27:22 Speaker_17
Let's listen to another song about the Lord's Prayer. I see how you did that there. It all comes to the center. I see how you did that. Yeah. That was great. We've got another one. This is... We'll say who it's from after we listen to it.

00:27:35 Speaker_16
Great.

00:27:55 Speaker_05
Thy kingdom come Thy will be done On earth as it is in heaven Give us this day our daily bread And forgive us our debts As we forgive our debtors And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the kingdom,

00:29:13 Speaker_15
Whoa.

00:29:14 Speaker_17
Yeah. Who was that? That was Erin Michelle. And the title is Thine is the Kingdom. Wow. That was incredible.

00:29:24 Speaker_16
Yeah. That was my first time hearing that. Yeah, my first time too. The way the electric guitar came in there, I was like, I felt that, felt that in my core. Aaron, thank you. That was incredible. Wow. I need to go for just a walk and process that.

00:29:42 Speaker_17
I love you and your walks. Okay, let's move on to another question.

00:29:45 Speaker_16
Yes, Rachel, who's from Canada. Man, it's a big place. Where in Canada? Somewhere in Canada. We don't know, but somewhere. There you are, Rachel. And you have another great question about this general theme about judging, not judging.

00:30:00 Speaker_16
Let's hear what you have to say.

00:30:03 Speaker_01
Hi, my name is Rachel from Canada. I'm wondering how to reconcile the call to be peacemakers with the wisdom of not throwing pearls before swine.

00:30:11 Speaker_01
When we see harm being done, should we call it out after carefully examining ourselves, even if we guess they might not receive it well? Does it make a difference if they claim to follow Jesus?

00:30:22 Speaker_01
Do we risk harming the relationship and removing opportunity to teach by example or risk contributing to the wrong by staying silent?

00:30:30 Speaker_17
Yeah. I think these are the right questions. Totally. Right? Yes. You know, we, we kind of ended that whole section saying, you know, it takes wisdom to know how to give wisdom.

00:30:41 Speaker_16
There's no formula. There's no formula. There's no right way.

00:30:44 Speaker_17
Every situation is unique.

00:30:47 Speaker_16
Yeah. Yeah. Rachel, I think every, question that you asked, which you probably didn't intend them as pure rhetorical questions. I thought they're real questions, because it's real life.

00:30:58 Speaker_16
But it's sort of like, I think the way that little section of the sermon is composed is actually to prompt every single one of your questions. Do you call it out? Do you not call it out? Does it matter if this person claims to follow Jesus or not?

00:31:14 Speaker_16
Are we culpable for saying nothing or saying something? What if both have negative consequences and there's no win? How often in life do you come up to no-win situations? There's a worse and then a more worse outcome, but neither are really ideal.

00:31:38 Speaker_16
the old rock and the hard place. Totally, yeah. So I don't mean to bring up your question, Rachel, just to say like there's no answer. You know, there are some challenges in life where There really are resolutions and better ways forward.

00:31:51 Speaker_16
But there are some circumstances, they tend to be universal or pretty built into the human condition. They're more like tensions that you manage as opposed to a problem that you solve. And how we get along with each other

00:32:09 Speaker_16
Feels more like- This is the core of it, right? Yeah.

00:32:12 Speaker_17
How do we relate to each other when things go awry?

00:32:17 Speaker_16
And what's the good way? Totally. Yeah. I mean, the main furnace that I'm in for this season of my life as in the school of parenting. But in a way it's kind of this drama of when do you bring it up and name it and go for a walk and talk about it?

00:32:38 Speaker_16
And when do you hold it in the moment and wait and maybe the circumstances will become the teacher and I don't have to, you know? Like what if a decision somebody makes, like the consequences are the teacher.

00:32:52 Speaker_16
And I don't, but maybe I need to bring the consequence or maybe I don't, you know, making all those calls is really, is really challenging, which has to be why the ask, seek, knock comes right after the pearls before swine.

00:33:09 Speaker_16
The subtext being ask God for what you need as you navigate these, these tensions. So maybe I'm just glutton for punishment, and I love how that section of the sermon raises more questions than it answers as a part of its design.

00:33:30 Speaker_16
And so I just, Rachel, I felt like you were naming that and feeling it in a way that's good. Like we expect the Bible to give us answers and that section more just says, yep, here's a set of problems you're gonna have.

00:33:42 Speaker_16
Here's some ways forward that you're gonna have to... You'll have to discern. Discern with God's help, which way is right at what time. Yeah. That's the essence of wisdom literature. Right.

00:33:54 Speaker_17
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh, let's do another one then. Okay. Yeah.

00:33:59 Speaker_16
Richard, you had a fantastic nerdy hyperlink question that I thought was super cool. Okay.

00:34:05 Speaker_00
Hey John and Tim, your conversation about the narrow gate and the way to life guarded by cherubim made me think about the angels next to Jesus's empty tomb and how Jesus opened the way for us to walk from death to life in a garden.

00:34:20 Speaker_00
Are there any other similar moments in the Bible that use this imagery? Thank you.

00:34:26 Speaker_17
Whoa, that's cool. I haven't thought about that as a hyperlink. The angels and the tomb as like the cherubim guarding the way to the garden.

00:34:35 Speaker_16
Oh, yeah, man. Yeah? Totally. That's cool. Well, okay, so this is a good example of where the different resurrection accounts in the gospel narratives are really interesting. In Matthew, There's only one. It's just the angel of the Lord that's there.

00:34:51 Speaker_16
So it's just one. In Mark, they see the Marys and Salome see a young man dressed in white sitting on the right side of the tomb. Just one guy? Just one. But in Luke's account, The women see two men standing there at the tomb entrance.

00:35:20 Speaker_16
Clothes gleaming like lightning. Clothes gleaming like lightning, yep. And then it's in John's resurrection account that Mary sees two angels sitting in white where Jesus' body had been. One at the head, the other at the foot.

00:35:38 Speaker_16
So Luke gives you two, Matthew and Mark gives you one, and then John gives you this little detail that it's sort of like this bench where Jesus' body would have been put. And they're like guarding either side. And there's a heavenly being.

00:35:53 Speaker_16
Well, I get the two ends of the bench.

00:35:56 Speaker_16
And especially in John, which is so turned up the volume on the theme of Jesus as the incarnation of God's temple, that many readers throughout history have seen this as a little hint towards the Ark of the Covenant, the cherubim.

00:36:13 Speaker_16
On the Ark of the Covenant.

00:36:13 Speaker_17
The Ark of the Covenant is hyperlinking to the cherubim guarding the way into the garden. The way into the Garden of Eden. And the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus talks about the way, the way back in. That's right.

00:36:25 Speaker_16
Yeah. So in that conversation about the way, the narrow gate, the narrow path and the gate, I was talking about how the motif of the road to life is rooted in the imagery of the road in and out of the Garden of Eden, guarded by the cherubim.

00:36:41 Speaker_16
The road goes through the tomb. Jesus's road to life was marked by this moment with two angelic beings.

00:36:48 Speaker_17
You talk about that with the flaming sword, you know, the chair beam and the flaming sword. And what's a sword except to just end your life?

00:36:56 Speaker_16
Yeah, a sword is about the ending of a life.

00:36:58 Speaker_17
There's something about passing through death. into life.

00:37:03 Speaker_16
So you asked, are there any other similar moments? What else we got? Well, one, I remember when it stood out to me, it just all of a sudden I saw Eden all over the place was the way Eden imagery is used in the Sodom and Gomorrah story in Genesis 19.

00:37:20 Speaker_16
all kinds of interesting interplays going on there. But one of them is that it's the two angels, angelic messengers, who are standing at the door of Lot's house. And then Lot is outside the house and it's night.

00:37:36 Speaker_16
and the violent men of Sodom are about to hurt him. And then they send out their hands and grab him and pull him inside through the door into the house. Yeah. And so it's a full on, like, there's life inside the house, death and darkness outside.

00:37:52 Speaker_16
Pulling him into Eden. And he gets pulled in through the door. Kind of almost against his will because he had gone out. A super interesting little illusion there. But then there are other moments where you have angelic figures appearing

00:38:06 Speaker_16
that mark out somebody as being connected to life in the land of death.

00:38:11 Speaker_16
So when the angel comes and feeds Elijah with the food as he's out in the wilderness right before going to Sinai, that's another kind of illusion where you have an angelic messenger at a threshold of life and death.

00:38:27 Speaker_16
When Elisha is in this Israelite city with his young protege or disciple, then they're surrounded by the Arameans, by an army. And then, I'm pretty sure it's the Arameans. It's in 2 Kings chapter 6. And they're like, oh, we're done for.

00:38:45 Speaker_16
And then Elisha says, nope, just, he prays, open his eyes, Lord. And he opens his eyes and there's fiery angels. Like surrounding the town. But lots of them. Lots of them, not just two. Yeah.

00:38:59 Speaker_16
So biblical authors loved creatively work with the Eden cherubim and the fiery sword at the door.

00:39:07 Speaker_17
Now we, the cherubim are a specific creature that's distinct from angels, but they're both spiritual beings.

00:39:14 Speaker_16
Spiritual, totally, yes.

00:39:15 Speaker_17
Because cherubim are like animal-formed.

00:39:17 Speaker_16
That's right, multi-formed.

00:39:19 Speaker_17
They're boundary keepers. They're boundary keepers. But the angels are always human-formed.

00:39:24 Speaker_16
Yeah, that's right. Always human-like and usually sent on a mission. Yeah, actually, I'm pretty sure what Elisha sees in 2 Kings 6, I don't think they're called angels. They are called... It's the host of heaven, maybe.

00:39:41 Speaker_16
He just saw the hills full of horses and chariots on fire. Oh yeah, the chariots of fire. And this is where that phrase, chariots of fire, comes from. I forget how it got attached to that famous movie. Yeah, me too.

00:39:54 Speaker_16
Anyway, so point being, biblical authors work flexibly and creatively with the imagery of the Eden cherubim.

00:40:04 Speaker_16
And so I'm not surprised to see John and Luke, but especially John, where he mentions their position as allusions to the garden cherubim, which brings so much richness then to think about

00:40:17 Speaker_16
the tomb and like the stone, so to speak, that seals the tomb as being a parallel to that sword of fire. Like the tomb was Jesus walking into the sword on behalf of others to roll it away, open up the way. Yeah. So super cool, Richard.

00:40:34 Speaker_17
Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. That's really cool. Let's just stick with me. Yep. All right. Let's take another music break to listen to another submission of the Lord's Prayer. What's going to happen? What is going to happen?

00:40:45 Speaker_17
This is going to happen right now.

00:40:53 Speaker_18
Creator of the cosmos We are your sons and daughters Agape love is your name Trust in you, my highest aim I want your kingdom to come I want your world to be done I devote my heart and hands To fulfill your Eden plans Creator of the cosmos

00:41:23 Speaker_18
We are your sons and daughters, the creator of the cosmos We are your sons and daughters, the creator of the cosmos We are your sons and daughters, the capella vizeline

00:41:38 Speaker_18
Trust in you, my highest thing I want your kingdom to come I want your will to be done I want your kingdom to come I want your will to be done I want your kingdom to come I want your will to be done I want your kingdom to come

00:42:03 Speaker_18
I devote my heart and hands to fulfill your Eden plans.

00:42:24 Speaker_17
All right, that was... Who is that?

00:42:27 Speaker_16
Andrew Eoff. Andrew, thank you. Yeah. That was awesome. And that was just the first half of the prayer. Right. You were just sessioning the first half. Yeah, I love that. I noticed that thing... You were repeating, Andrew, things in patterns of three.

00:42:42 Speaker_16
Oh, wow. You're repeating everything in pattern, at least I think. I think that's what I was noticing. I love that you're paying attention to that. Which is super cool. Yeah, it's cool. You know, each side of the prayer has three kind of paired lines.

00:42:55 Speaker_16
Yeah. Or I wondered if there was some Trinitarian flavor going on there. And the Eden plans. The Eden plans. Such a creative. That was great. Okay. So instead of just repeating the language, you like re-worked. Yeah.

00:43:09 Speaker_16
Father in the sky is creator of the cosmos.

00:43:12 Speaker_17
That's a cool like way to think about it.

00:43:14 Speaker_16
Absolutely. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That's like in the episode when we talked about the Jewish liturgical background of the Lord's Prayer and about how Jesus had adopted phrases that were known from synagogue prayers at the time.

00:43:29 Speaker_16
So it's kind of like you're doing the same thing. You're like adapt the way Jesus adapted a traditional prayer and you adapted Jesus' prayer. Super cool. Thanks, Andrew. Thank you, Andrew. Yeah. Okay.

00:43:41 Speaker_16
Probably the most repeated theme in the questions that were sent in

00:43:46 Speaker_16
were about either the complexities of don't judge or the complexities raised by Jesus mentioning illegitimate prophets and how you tell people who represent him apart from people who say they do but actually don't. How do you know?

00:44:01 Speaker_16
So one great statement of this question came to us from Shanta. So let's hear your question.

00:44:08 Speaker_10
Hi, this is Shanta from the United States. This question is in response to the false prophet episode.

00:44:14 Speaker_10
So in 2 Corinthians 11, we see that Paul is being accused of being a false prophet because he has to list out his job description and everything that he has done on behalf of the Lord. So even when people think that even Paul himself

00:44:33 Speaker_10
probably one of the greatest disciples of the Lord, that he is a false prophet and could be a wolf in sheep's clothing. How are we even just to discern who around us is that wolf?

00:44:49 Speaker_10
because even in our own psyche, it's our own perceived reality is shaped by our past experiences that we've had, trauma, pain, unknown biases, insecurities, our incomplete and poor doctrine that we've constructed from our own church upbringing, from our own parents.

00:45:12 Speaker_10
And so where we live in this perceived reality, we have misinterpretations of others' behavior, It's just the way of life.

00:45:22 Speaker_10
And so when we are surrounded by covert narcissists or just really immature people in their growth and their development of their own spiritual growth,

00:45:34 Speaker_10
How can we even begin to know who's the wolf in sheep's clothing and who really the true prophet is? Because it is very difficult in this day and age, and I struggle with it deeply.

00:45:48 Speaker_10
So I would just love to hear your heart and your wisdom in all of that. Thank you so much.

00:45:54 Speaker_16
Wow. Yeah. Thank you Shanta what a thoughtful very thorough naming thoughtful expression of A really important challenge. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, I think when we came to that episode part of

00:46:16 Speaker_16
why I set up the conversation the way that I did, which was to say this challenge has always been a part of the story of God's people in the biblical tradition, going back to its Jewish and then ancient Israelite roots, where the whole story of God's people is about a sense of being called and selected out from among the nations, like think all the way back to Abraham.

00:46:44 Speaker_16
So the very social dynamic created there is this idea of reality that it's possible that whole cultures and groups of people can construct a way of viewing reality that's a delusion. And the idea that God can reveal truth can like... You know?

00:47:05 Speaker_16
That's the prophet. Choose one out of the many. Yeah. A people to be the bearers of the truth. Yeah. Sets up this inherent tension because then what happens when those competing claims about holding God's truth come into conflict with each other.

00:47:23 Speaker_16
So my point is just saying it's baked in to the nature of living in the Christian story that there's going to be this tension. And you see it, I mean, the nature of Jesus himself, like, not everybody thought Jesus. Sure.

00:47:39 Speaker_16
Some people accuse Jesus of being the wolf. Yeah. Looking for Beelzebub. Yeah, totally. That's right. Great point. That's right.

00:47:48 Speaker_16
And so Paul, the apostle, came into conflict with other followers of Jesus who said that they had God's truth, which is that all the non-Israelites need to get circumcised and eat kosher. And the apostles had to come around that and sort it out.

00:48:04 Speaker_16
So it's always been difficult. And now in our cultural setting, we have More layers of difficult given the 2000 years of history that have passed, right? Between Jesus and ourselves. So how do you even begin to discern? How do you begin to discern?

00:48:21 Speaker_17
You've talked about how the story of the Bible is the minority report. So if like most people are saying, this is reality. And then you get a prophet who isn't going to be the, it's going to go against the common. Common narrative. Yeah.

00:48:37 Speaker_17
And then that person's going to say, if we pull back the curtain, I'm going to show you something you probably don't want to see. And that person's probably going to be accused of not really being a prophet without being a false prophet.

00:48:51 Speaker_17
You just would suspect that. And so it's kind of like the constant uno reverse card move. It's just like, you're a false prophet. No, you're a false prophet. You're a false prophet. And then it just cycles into, well, then that means nothing anymore.

00:49:04 Speaker_17
If we're all false prophets, then what does it even mean to accuse someone of being a false prophet?

00:49:08 Speaker_16
Yeah. So what are our benchmarks? I guess for a follower of Jesus, A benchmark is the very life pattern of Jesus himself. So, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is primarily talking about the shape of a human life.

00:49:25 Speaker_16
that's in tune with the character and wisdom and love of God, that's a picture of God's heavenly kingdom coming on earth. So not just an individual human life, though that's true, but a communal pattern of life that he's painting in the sermon.

00:49:41 Speaker_16
So I think when he's talking about, you'll know a tree by its fruit, using the fruit metaphor is most consistently connected to an image for the product of a person's choices over a long period of time.

00:49:55 Speaker_16
So what's the individual and communal fruit of a group of people and how they live in the world played out over a long period of time, that itself will tell a story of whether these people are in touch with the truth or not.

00:50:10 Speaker_17
This is back to this, you know, what kind of house are you going to build? If you build a house on a rock, it's going to be a sturdy house that lasts. And so one way to know is someone truly living the way of Jesus, Like, look at what's been built.

00:50:27 Speaker_17
Now, of course, we could problematize that because, you know. Totally problematize it. That's right. Someone who follows Jesus faithfully could just be in hard knocks, be persecuted, you know, be in a bad situation that maybe it looks like.

00:50:44 Speaker_17
Maybe there isn't enough fruit from their life, but really they are calling Jesus.

00:50:49 Speaker_16
Yeah, but then I guess it would say, well, on that account, what fruit did Jesus produce? Like he was a, right?

00:50:56 Speaker_16
Like a wandering itinerant teacher rejected by the authorities, mostly hanging out with former sex workers and tax collectors and poor sick people. So on that account, So really it also depends on how you define fruit.

00:51:13 Speaker_16
And you know, Shanta, you brought up the Apostle Paul. Paul brought out his credentials. And it's interesting you brought up second Corinthians, because part of who he's battling with is a group of other Christian leaders that he calls false apostles.

00:51:27 Speaker_16
And it's a version of the phrase Jesus uses, which is false prophets. And he says, yeah, you know, these guys are false because they keep asking you to pay them.

00:51:37 Speaker_17
Yeah, it's interesting.

00:51:38 Speaker_16
And he says, I've never asked you to pay me. That's wild. Yeah. And for him, that's like a source of pride. And he says, which way is more like Jesus? To ask you to pay me? Oh my goodness. Or to the fact that I like sew leather tent.

00:51:54 Speaker_16
Yeah, that I have a marketplace skill that keeps me going. Keeps me going.

00:51:57 Speaker_17
So I can with... That's right.

00:52:00 Speaker_16
What's more like Jesus? Paul says my thorn in the flesh, the sickness, or maybe his speech impediment, we don't know. But he says he wasn't super well-trained as a rhetorical speaker. So he's just less impressive overall.

00:52:15 Speaker_16
And for him, those are his credentials. So the counterintuitive kind of values flip that Jesus and Paul embodied

00:52:26 Speaker_16
also was a legitimacy card they could pull, but it didn't look like the successful fruit that we typically look at and say someone is like.

00:52:37 Speaker_17
It's almost like how do you discern fruit becomes then the issue to really think about.

00:52:42 Speaker_16
Yeah. You know, I'm thinking of well-known stories of influential church leaders, church movements in our day, And, but that really had some problems, you know, deep on the inside with people's character.

00:52:59 Speaker_16
And, you know, a common theme when people tell those stories is real problems in leadership or with people's character kind of got glossed over because, well, look at how thriving this church is. Look at how many people are getting baptized and

00:53:15 Speaker_16
So you can be like, well, there's good fruit, but it's emerging out of something that seems really... And maybe, you know, Shanta, to a certain degree, that's always the case, because... God works in spite of us.

00:53:30 Speaker_16
Yeah, and because... which is not to excuse it or to say, so let's, you know, let's just perpetuate you know, bad leadership. But I think all the complexities that you stacked up there, Shanta, make it almost feel like, how can we even begin?

00:53:45 Speaker_16
If the qualifications for God ever doing anything through anyone mean that they need to be fully remade to be completely like Jesus in every way, then I guess nothing would ever get done.

00:54:01 Speaker_17
But on the flip side, right? The stakes are high. Exactly. Like if someone is saying, I am representing the way of God. That's right. And instead they are oppressing people and they're scapegoating people and they're creating hostility. Division.

00:54:18 Speaker_15
And division.

00:54:19 Speaker_17
Yeah. And like, well then you can't.

00:54:24 Speaker_16
Yeah. Yeah, like that also really needs to get named, like clearly. And Jesus and Paul, we see those patterns of people like that getting named.

00:54:35 Speaker_16
Thinking of, you know, in the book of Acts, when Peter meets that former maybe magician, Simon Magus, you know, who wanted to get the Holy Spirit power and he wanted to pay money for it because He thought it might be good for his show.

00:54:51 Speaker_16
And Peter just like names it. He's just, he doesn't mince words with that guy. So I think I'm just, I'm feeling it. You asked to hear our hearts, Shanta. And what my heart does is it just feels the complexity of this. But I have to think that

00:55:13 Speaker_16
This isn't an individual burden. This is a burden shared by communities.

00:55:18 Speaker_16
And so when communities are using as like a benchmark or a standard the life pattern of Jesus, my hunch is that if there's honesty, vulnerability, taking risks, and truly using the life of Jesus as a standard,

00:55:40 Speaker_16
that at least many of these types of problems could be addressed. Not all, not every case, it's way too complex. Because if I'm bringing my own baggage from my life or family of origins or the way I've been shaped by my church tradition,

00:55:57 Speaker_16
Odds are, if I'm working this out in a community, that someone else who doesn't have my hang-ups is going to be able to see and notice something that I'm going to distort, right?

00:56:09 Speaker_16
And that's why we need a community of people to discern these types of communal issues about leadership and representation in the movement of Jesus. And maybe that's it, communal discernment.

00:56:22 Speaker_16
The standard is the life pattern of Jesus, not some other definition of success.

00:56:28 Speaker_17
If the fruit is the life pattern of Jesus, if the fruit is, am I on a journey towards getting closer and closer to embodying the way of Jesus, the way Jesus interacted with people and the teachings that he had for how to live in relationship with other people, then

00:56:47 Speaker_17
That's your defense. If you're being accused as false prophet, say, here's the ways I'm aligning my life with Jesus closer and closer every day. Then on the reverse, if someone is claiming to be of God and they can't do that, if

00:57:03 Speaker_17
You know, you put the Jesus mirror up and there's nothing there.

00:57:07 Speaker_16
Yeah. Or the person, the leader, whoever they are themselves, doesn't see it. Surely other people around will be able to say like, yeah, but it's weird because the way you talk to people doesn't seem to reflect.

00:57:21 Speaker_16
And maybe actually another benchmark alongside the life pattern of Jesus that mirrors it is using the word fruit, like the fruit of the Spirit. How do you know the Spirit of God is remaking human life?

00:57:34 Speaker_16
Look at the nine-fold fruit that Paul names in Galatians 5. You know, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control.

00:57:46 Speaker_16
That's another type of way to just say, does it mirror the life pattern of Jesus that is the fruit of the Spirit? My hunch is a group of people could

00:57:58 Speaker_16
probably do a pretty decent job if they held a leader or a representative who's claiming to speak or represent God to that. That could probably solve many, but it won't solve all.

00:58:11 Speaker_17
No, it always gets messy. It always gets messy. It's human life. And is there some wisdom here too? And we talked about judging, right? So this is another form of judging. And you brought us to the passage in Matthew 18. Yeah.

00:58:26 Speaker_17
There's some wisdom here in that sometimes someone needs to be confronted with just the way you're living is not stacking up with the fruit of the spirit and the character of Jesus.

00:58:38 Speaker_17
And if that person is just like, oh, wow, yeah, actually you're right. Like, that's wonderful. And you don't have to call him a false prophet. It's like, this is a brother you've won over and is on a journey with you.

00:58:51 Speaker_17
But then if the person's like, no, like I speak for God and this is, then at that point, there's a point where you have to draw a line, right? And in Matthew 18, it's after the communal wisdom. But there's a point where you're just like, you know what?

00:59:08 Speaker_17
We're just gonna call it as it is. Like what you're doing is false. This is false. And we're just going to label it. But there seems to be some wisdom in that trajectory of how you get there.

00:59:18 Speaker_16
Yep, that's right. And then maybe a patient process to not be hasty in drawing that conclusion. But that sometimes that conclusion does need to be drawn. Right. Well, that solves all that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Shanta. Just for naming it.

00:59:36 Speaker_16
Lord have mercy. He does have mercy. And we need, we need God's wisdom. A lot, probably a lot more than we're aware of. So thank you.

00:59:46 Speaker_17
Let's listen to one more.

00:59:49 Speaker_16
Song? Song. Rendition. Okay. Of? Awesome. I love it. Lord's Prayer. What are we going to hear this time? What are we going to hear? Here we go.

01:00:02 Speaker_02
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

01:00:22 Speaker_02
♪ Give us this day our daily bread ♪ ♪ And forgive us our trespasses ♪ ♪ As we forgive those who trespass against us ♪ ♪ And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil ♪ is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever.

01:01:18 Speaker_17
All right, that was Wes Crawford, singing the Lord's Prayer. Yeah, thank you. What translation was that? Trespasses. That'd be King James. That's the King James. Yeah, coming in with King James.

01:01:31 Speaker_16
Or maybe new. Yeah, I think it's the new King James. Yeah, old English and new English mixed together. We call it the new King James.

01:01:38 Speaker_17
The new King James. Thank you, Wes. Okay, so let's do one last question. We have one from Lee in Pennsylvania.

01:01:48 Speaker_12
My name is Lee Kalisti, and I'm from Greensburg, Pennsylvania. Hi, Tim. Hi, John. I have followed your podcast for years. It's remarkable. Thank you.

01:02:00 Speaker_12
However, through the Sermon on the Mount series, there seemed to be little said of how faith in Jesus is necessary to live a greater righteousness that Jesus calls his followers to live.

01:02:13 Speaker_12
Other gospels, even in the epistles, mention it, and Jesus often mentions, believe in me, you can do nothing without me, and so on.

01:02:25 Speaker_12
In light of that, how do you think Jesus connects the faith requirement and the change from the spirit in being able to live to this greater righteousness? Thank you.

01:02:38 Speaker_17
Thanks Lee, that's a great way to end actually.

01:02:41 Speaker_12
Yeah, I thought so too.

01:02:43 Speaker_16
Yeah. We actually, it's so long ago that we started the Sermon on the Mount series. But in that opening episode, I think we talked about ways that Jesus communities throughout history have kind of

01:03:00 Speaker_16
interpreted the sermon to make sense of it and to fit it in.

01:03:04 Speaker_16
And one of those, if you compare Jesus's picture of the greater righteousness with good life in the sermon, and then you compare it to like Paul's message, you'll notice differences in emphasis.

01:03:21 Speaker_16
And whereas Paul will emphasize the word trust or faith and the role of the Spirit, neither of those words are prominent in the Sermon on the Mount.

01:03:30 Speaker_16
And so, is it appropriate at some point to ask, how does the sermon sit alongside the vision of the Christian life that we find in Paul's letters? Which is a legitimate question. And one that I think at some point you got to ask. is legitimate to ask.

01:03:48 Speaker_16
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. If Jesus and Paul were to hang out, and they did, although for Paul, it was the post-resurrection Jesus that he had encounters with, how would they kind of work it out together? So... Yeah. Wonderful. Tell us.

01:04:07 Speaker_17
Well, I mean, I just, I do know we did say, let's not try to, let's not... One temptation is to maybe diminish the real call that Jesus has for us by saying, yeah, you know, it's all grace.

01:04:25 Speaker_17
And so maybe this is just Jesus saying, here's what you can't attain to. Versus like hearing it as a true call of like, we can live up to this. We can do this.

01:04:38 Speaker_17
But then the question becomes, well then with what energy and how am I going to accomplish this? Is it all grit? Is it all self-discipline? And then we start wrestling with these sayings of Jesus.

01:04:54 Speaker_17
You can do nothing without me or Paul talking about the spirit.

01:05:00 Speaker_16
And it can be very easy to read the sermon in light of a certain way of reading Paul's letters.

01:05:08 Speaker_16
In other words, Paul's message was that non-Israelites who want to follow Jesus don't have to live by certain cultural covenant markers that mark the people of Israel through their history, eating kosher, Sabbath, and circumcision.

01:05:28 Speaker_16
So in that sense, there's freedom from the covenant laws of the Torah and the work of the Spirit doing what he's doing among Gentiles. But it can be very easy to hear Paul saying, and he has been heard saying, the law is somehow You know, subpar.

01:05:47 Speaker_16
Christ is the end of the law. It's a way of translating a line from Romans chapter 10.

01:05:52 Speaker_16
And so when you hear Jesus primarily talking about his call to his followers as fulfilling the law, you can be like, well, but Paul said, now that we have life in the spirit, that's the end of the law. So that's a misunderstanding of Paul.

01:06:07 Speaker_16
And then you can read that misunderstanding back into Jesus. Whereas both Jesus and Paul see God's people living a fully human image of God life by the wisdom of the laws, That produces fruit. Reproduces real fruit. Good works, as Paul talks about.

01:06:25 Speaker_16
And Paul emphasizes the role of this, the indispensable role of the spirit as God's own life presence animating the new human life of a Messiah person. Jesus doesn't emphasize the role of the spirit in that way.

01:06:42 Speaker_16
When Jesus emphasizes the spirit, like in Matthew's gospel, He's talking about the Spirit's power by which He's casting out evil forces from people and healing people of their sicknesses. That's when Jesus brings up the Spirit.

01:06:58 Speaker_16
So it's just a difference of emphasis. But one thing that is clear in the sermon is that Jesus believes that the real engine and like the core of this way of life of greater righteousness is about an intimate union with the Father.

01:07:17 Speaker_16
you know, like in the very center where he's talking about the life of prayer and fasting and generosity comes out of having a close connection, intimate connection with your father.

01:07:30 Speaker_16
And, you know, Jesus knows that that kind of connection is related to the mediating presence of the Spirit. That's how Jesus heard the voice of the Father's love in his baptism, was through the Spirit.

01:07:45 Speaker_16
But he just doesn't name it explicitly, but I think it's implicit. You could also go to the ending of Matthew's gospel, where Jesus commissions the disciples and says, all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me.

01:08:01 Speaker_16
Go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. And then he says, the very last line is, and look, I am with you until the conclusion of the age. So there is this personal presence of Jesus.

01:08:19 Speaker_16
Paul will talk about that in and through the person of the spirit. is how you are connected to that presence of Jesus, that that's the engine, like driving the whole thing. So I think maybe Lee, it's just a matter of emphasis.

01:08:34 Speaker_16
If I'm reading Paul, I'm definitely going to turn up the volume on the faith theme and the spirit theme. If you're working in John's gospel, Jesus's language emphasizes the role of the Spirit and faith more.

01:08:48 Speaker_16
But I just want to honor the way the sermons put together, that those aren't the main themes as expressed in the sermon itself.

01:08:57 Speaker_17
Yeah, we seem to focus on the themes and structure of the sermon, but then we also looked at how Jesus was working with the Hebrew Bible as it relates to that.

01:09:07 Speaker_17
We didn't then look forward and think about how the Apostle Paul starts interfacing with the same ideas.

01:09:13 Speaker_15
We didn't make that move.

01:09:14 Speaker_17
But that's a cool move to make.

01:09:16 Speaker_16
And that'd be a really wonderful study to do and very appropriate. comparing the sermon and the vision of following Jesus' life to the language and themes of Paul. And then you walk away. I mean, both are in the canon of the New Testament.

01:09:32 Speaker_16
And so you need both. You need to hear both. What has often happened is we don't hear the sermon as well because we hear it only in terms of Paul. And what we were trying to do in the sermon is kind of rehabilitate

01:09:45 Speaker_16
a chance to hear this sermon on its own terms.

01:09:48 Speaker_17
And once you do, then yeah, go back to Paul.

01:09:50 Speaker_16
Then go back to Paul and then see the electricity between them. And then it's the stereo, man. You're getting the Jesus life through two speakers. Wonderful.

01:10:00 Speaker_17
That's a cool project to do, is to read through Paul's letters, really thinking about the Sermon on the Mount, doing your own reflection. And a community could really benefit from that.

01:10:10 Speaker_16
Yeah.

01:10:11 Speaker_17
It'd be wonderful. Unfortunately, that's not the next thing we're doing. That would have been a cool thing to do. Yeah, it would. We're in the middle of the Mountain series, if you're following along real time. So that's what we're doing now.

01:10:24 Speaker_17
But this does mark the end. end of the end of the end of the Sermon on the Mount for us for now.

01:10:30 Speaker_15
Yeah.

01:10:31 Speaker_17
This has been a wonderful journey. We have already talked about all of that. So we won't belabor that today and just say thank you. If you followed along to the end of this episode, like you're in.

01:10:42 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:10:43 Speaker_17
Yeah. You've done it all with us. And so thank you for just being invested in that way and dialoguing through this with us and for your questions. And we'll just continue on.

01:10:57 Speaker_16
Yeah. Thank you all for your amazing support and enthusiasm. We've loved learning about the sermon together and with you all. So cheers to that.

01:11:12 Speaker_17
Onward. Bible Project is a crowdfunded nonprofit and everything that we make is to experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. The whole collection. Everything we make is free because we don't have to charge for it. Yeah.

01:11:28 Speaker_17
Because people, there's so many generous people have given us money. And so we get to just make it and then give it for free. Yeah. And it's so wonderful. And many of you listening are part of that. So thank you so much.

01:11:40 Speaker_17
We really, really are honored to be on this journey with you. And we're going to leave you with one last song, one last rendition of the Lord's Prayer. And it is from Peter Asad, I think is how you pronounce his name. This is our father.

01:12:09 Speaker_03
♪ You are the Holy One ♪ ♪ And Your name is great in all the earth ♪ ♪ Let Your kingdom come ♪ ♪ Let Your will be done ♪ ♪ On earth as it is in heaven ♪

01:12:44 Speaker_03
You have all I need You will provide for me My daily bread is in Your hand Teach me to forgive as You've forgiven me And keep my feet from stumbling Teach me to forgive as you've forgiven me From the evil one, deliver me, deliver me

01:14:41 Speaker_16
There is a whole amazing team that produces this podcast and we would read all of the names for you, but it's too many.

01:14:49 Speaker_16
So check out the show notes and you can learn about the people who helped make this amazing thing that we get to be a part of called the Bible Project podcast. Thank you for listening.