Glennon: Is it Insanity or Life? AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast We Can Do Hard Things

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Episode: Glennon: Is it Insanity or Life?

Author: Glennon Doyle and Audacy
Duration: 01:00:05

Episode Shownotes

363. Glennon: Is it Insanity or Life? Glennon discusses an existential and emotional revelation with Abby and Amanda. Discover: Diving into the abyss; what is the abyss and what does it mean? The time a child’s soccer triumph left Glennon in tears Growing out of coping mechanisms Metabolizing the “muchness”

of being alive and big feelings To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary

In the episode "Glennon: Is it Insanity or Life?" from "We Can Do Hard Things," Glennon Doyle explores the emotional struggles surrounding sanity and the metaphorical 'abyss' representing life’s chaotic feelings. Through personal anecdotes, Glennon discusses the intense vulnerability of parenting and the pressure of coping mechanisms. She reflects on moments of joy, like a child's soccer victory, and the importance of connection in overcoming fears. Ultimately, she concludes that the abyss is not insanity but a rich part of the human experience, encouraging listeners to embrace their emotions fully.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Glennon: Is it Insanity or Life?) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

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00:02:09 Speaker_04
Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. I just wanted to pop in before we roll this conversation and tell the pod squad this. We recorded this episode before the election. Okay?

00:02:25 Speaker_04
But what I need you to know is that I think it might be really helpful because it's about sanity versus insanity. It's about the abyss that we all live so close to, the abyss of

00:02:48 Speaker_04
lack of control, the abyss of depression, the abyss of oppression, the abyss of all of it, and how to survive that abyss. I can't wait to hear what you think of this episode. We're calling it Weird Glennon because in fact,

00:03:08 Speaker_04
it is about Weird Glennon, but I hope it's a little bit about all of us.

00:03:11 Speaker_01
I love Weird Glennon. Aw. Weird Glennon might be my favorite, especially the one with now two nose rings. Sister, have you seen her two nose rings?

00:03:21 Speaker_03
Bring yourself closer. What's better than one nose ring? Two nose rings. And it was an accident. What's better than two nose rings? Who knows? That's good. I went over to my friend's house last night. Good job.

00:03:36 Speaker_03
And she was having a real hard time, so I was dropping things off. And then she invited me in and she just read me dad jokes for 45 minutes. And I really recommend that to people, dad jokes. Here's one for you. A pirate's parrot flew away.

00:03:58 Speaker_03
But honestly, it was a weight lifted off his shoulder.

00:04:05 Speaker_04
I just have a pirate one. What is a pirate's favorite letter?

00:04:11 Speaker_02
R. You would think, but no, it's the C they love. What's a pirate's worst exercise? Planking. Okay, since we've already lost them, what does a very proper owl say? Whom? Whom? God damn it! You know that I was gonna get that one.

00:04:35 Speaker_04
Oh my God, I love a grammar joke.

00:04:38 Speaker_01
All right. This is a perfect segue though into Weird Glennon. We love you. Look at how fucking weird we are. Good luck with this one.

00:04:46 Speaker_04
Let me know what you think after, but only if it's nice. Enjoy. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. It's been an awkward start for us. Abby keeps making jokes. And nobody's laughing.

00:05:09 Speaker_01
They're funny, but nobody's laughing.

00:05:11 Speaker_04
I think if they're funny, that's when you know if it's funny is when people laugh.

00:05:14 Speaker_01
No, it just means that your guys' sense of humor is off.

00:05:17 Speaker_04
That's true. And first of all, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Did I already say that? No. Okay. Welcome to you, pod squad. Today, this is one of those episodes that is coming to you from weird Glennon, okay? Oh, fun. Yeah. So here's what I have decided.

00:05:37 Speaker_04
I'm going to give you an update about my life experience lately. Oh, shit. Because God knows the world needs another update of my life experience, okay? Oh, we're doing it. Okay. This is fun. Now,

00:05:51 Speaker_04
Everything that I'm about to say during these 50 minutes makes perfect sense to me, okay? I do not know if it's gonna make sense to everyone, but here's what I have learned. Is this kind of like Abby's joke?

00:06:02 Speaker_03
Yeah, it might be. Her joke is very funny. She doesn't know whether people are going to experience it as funny.

00:06:08 Speaker_04
Yes.

00:06:08 Speaker_03
Is this why this was a good seg-you? Seg-you.

00:06:11 Speaker_04
Okay, the reason she's saying seg-you, y'all, is because- It's like a legume, but it's a seg-you. Yes, I have spent my entire life thinking that people were making segues in their conversations in my books.

00:06:27 Speaker_04
And I just learned that there's no such thing as a segue maybe a year ago.

00:06:32 Speaker_05
Yeah.

00:06:33 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:06:34 Speaker_03
Also, I will remind everyone- It's a segue, by the way. It's a segue. If people are like, what the hell are you talking about? It's also not one of those things that tourists do. on sidewalks that appear very dangerous.

00:06:44 Speaker_03
It's a cross between a scooter and a bicycle, and it looks like it's from Mars.

00:06:48 Speaker_04
Right. But I knew that there was a word called segue in the world. Like, I say that in my life. And let's make a segue so we can get to another topic.

00:06:56 Speaker_01
Did you just say segue and segue were the same?

00:06:58 Speaker_04
I thought segue was a completely different word. I'd never heard anyone say it in real life.

00:07:03 Speaker_01
What did you think the meaning of segue was?

00:07:06 Speaker_04
I thought that a segue was very similar to a segue. Just like I didn't know that nothing goes houry.

00:07:16 Speaker_01
Oh, yeah.

00:07:16 Speaker_04
Everything just goes awry, whether it's in a book or in real life. There is no going houry.

00:07:21 Speaker_01
You're such a book nerd. So cute.

00:07:24 Speaker_04
Shout out to all the kiddos who spent their childhood in books instead of listening to human beings because we have a confusion.

00:07:33 Speaker_01
You're so cute.

00:07:33 Speaker_04
About words. OK, what I was going to say is what I've decided is that It's not that it doesn't make sense or not. It makes sense to me. It might not make sense to everyone, but two things can be true at the same time.

00:07:49 Speaker_04
I did shoot this whole concept of this episode and my experience to my therapist the other day and said, do you think that people are going to resonate with this situation? And she said, Glennon, as always, I think we just have to try and see.

00:08:06 Speaker_04
I don't know what that means.

00:08:07 Speaker_01
All right.

00:08:08 Speaker_04
The rest of us have to try to understand. She said, I think that I just have to try and see. Oh, you have to try.

00:08:12 Speaker_05
Okay.

00:08:14 Speaker_04
She understood it, but I do pay her to understand it. So I'm not sure. When I was little, maybe not so little, maybe like in my, in elementary school, middle school, maybe. Okay.

00:08:29 Speaker_04
We lived on this street, and then there was this bike path that was a mile away. Okay, so it was too kind of dangerous to get out. We lived on this main road, and then the intersection was another highway.

00:08:42 Speaker_04
So we would put our bikes in our van, in the back of our van, and then drive the three quarters of a mile to the beginning of this bike trail. And this would happen like every once in a while, okay? And then we would all get on the bike trail,

00:08:56 Speaker_04
as a family and ride a couple miles. I don't know. It's not a big deal. Now, what I remember from these times is that it was a beautiful trail kind of through the woods, but to the sides, there were cliffs. Okay. There was like drop-offs to either side.

00:09:18 Speaker_04
And I just could not believe, there were no fences, it was just a trail, a little bit of trees, not much, a few feet, and then just death, okay? So you went mountain biking?

00:09:37 Speaker_04
Well, no, it was like an asphalt trail, like there was like three-year-olds walking on the trail.

00:09:41 Speaker_01
Okay, so it's proper concrete, okay.

00:09:43 Speaker_04
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, concrete for sure. You don't think I was like, I was on like my little 10 speed.

00:09:50 Speaker_03
Oh, okay.

00:09:50 Speaker_04
Right.

00:09:50 Speaker_03
Yeah. Well, when you said cliffs and death, it did indicate a little more rugged terrain than a community bike path. I was excited. I was like, shit, we're going to get you a mountain bike today.

00:10:01 Speaker_04
It was cliffs though. I believe you. Your perception was it was cliffs. It was cliffs. All right. Do you not remember this? It was horrific cliffs and I used to ride my bike and the whole time- In Virginia.

00:10:18 Speaker_02
Sister, do you not remember this? In suburban Virginia.

00:10:22 Speaker_03
I'm struggling to figure out where we're talking about. Okay, remember interstate van lines? Yes, I do remember. So for all of you, we're placing you in Burke, Virginia on the intersection of Burke Road and Rolling Road.

00:10:34 Speaker_03
Interstate van lines where they used to have those letters, they would say something, it would change like every month. Close to West Springfield High School. Actually, equidistant from West Springfield High School and Lake Braddock Secondary School.

00:10:46 Speaker_04
Go Bruins. Bruins, Bruins. Hats off to thee. To thy colors true.

00:10:49 Speaker_03
To thy colors true. We will ever be. Furman strong. United we stand.

00:10:51 Speaker_04
Ruffer, ruffer, Bruins strong.

00:10:52 Speaker_03
Fight the battle. Holding the chip for the purple and gold. Go Bruins.

00:10:55 Speaker_04
Wow. Anyway, there were horrific cliffs to either side. And if you don't remember it, then I don't know. Okay? So, all I would think the whole time

00:11:07 Speaker_04
I would squeeze my little handlebars and I would think, I hope I don't turn myself and plunge myself into the cliff. Solid intrusive thoughts.

00:11:23 Speaker_01
A certain death.

00:11:23 Speaker_04
Intrusive thoughts, yeah, I get it. That's what my therapist said, intrusive thoughts. Interesting. Okay. I wasn't thinking, I hope I don't accidentally fall off.

00:11:35 Speaker_01
You're like, I hope I don't do something absolutely batshit crazy. All of us do that when we're driving the car. They're like, what if I just turn the wheel and I go into the oncoming traffic?

00:11:45 Speaker_04
So when you're on a balcony, are you thinking, I hope I don't jump off this balcony?

00:11:49 Speaker_01
Every once in a while, I'll have an intrusive thought.

00:11:51 Speaker_04
Oh, that makes me feel better.

00:11:53 Speaker_01
Yeah, same. It's like a little fun game we play with ourselves to not do it.

00:11:57 Speaker_04
Sometimes I'll be speaking when I used to speak and I'll be like standing up at a church and I'll be like, what if I just scream, fuck you all, fuck you, fuck you all.

00:12:11 Speaker_01
I hope I don't do that. I might. One of my intrusive thoughts is when we're driving in the car and you know how people like don't stop short with me. Seinfeld. Seinfeld. Yeah. Don't stop short with me.

00:12:21 Speaker_01
I have this intrusive thought that I do the don't stop short with me, but I hit you really hard.

00:12:26 Speaker_04
Oh, that's nice.

00:12:27 Speaker_01
Isn't that so bad?

00:12:28 Speaker_04
Yeah. No, that makes me feel better because I do like if I'm holding a child, it's one of my favorite things about myself is that people will just hand me babies. And when I'm holding baby, I'm always thinking what don't

00:12:38 Speaker_04
don't drop the baby, which I would never do.

00:12:41 Speaker_03
Don't on purpose drop the baby. Yes. Do you know my worst intrusive thought? What? The one that bothers me the most is I would travel with the babies when they were very, very young on planes.

00:12:54 Speaker_03
We always have business meetings across the country when my babies were three weeks and four weeks old.

00:12:59 Speaker_02
Yeah, you did.

00:12:59 Speaker_03
We did. Always. I would be traveling with them and you know how the airplane bathroom where they have this tiny little thing where you change their diaper in the bathroom. So I've done that like 1000 times.

00:13:14 Speaker_03
Only in the last couple years, I've realized, oh my God, that little thing was right on top of where the toilet is, where it just goes through the toilet and into the sky. And oh my God. And so I think, it's in the past.

00:13:29 Speaker_03
I'm literally never gonna do it again. But I wake up in the middle of the night once a week thinking, my baby could have fallen off the diaper thing into the toilet, into the sky. Hold on.

00:13:39 Speaker_01
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Into outer space. No, hold on a second. Don't be logical about it, it's just a fear that she has. I know, but I need to, I fly enough. Our shit and piss does not go out into the sky. No, they keep it in a container.

00:13:56 Speaker_02
Okay, but you're saying out into the sky. Well, I don't know. None about it is logical, but I'm gonna find out when we get off this. Okay, that's a really good point.

00:14:03 Speaker_04
Amanda, the poo isn't flying out. I mean, it's going into a bin. Either way, it wouldn't be great for the baby. Also, the baby's not fitting down that little hole. I do not think that these words are logical.

00:14:16 Speaker_01
We're really yucking your intrusive thought here.

00:14:19 Speaker_04
I need to know this. Do you guys ever just lay in bed? I think this usually happens to me in bed, but do you ever just lay in bed and think of a scenario and then lose your shit about that scenario. That is definitely not happening, but- For example?

00:14:39 Speaker_04
You go through the whole thing. Well, I'm always in a home invasion.

00:14:42 Speaker_01
Oh yeah. Every night I'm in a home invasion. I do that too.

00:14:44 Speaker_04
I'm thinking what I'm doing.

00:14:45 Speaker_01
Fire, home invasion. Yeah, what am I gonna do? What door? Am I gonna lock myself behind? Yes.

00:14:50 Speaker_04
And then do you like come to and it's like 10 minutes later and you are full on so upset about that thing and then you have to remind yourself that didn't happen and you're just in this bed still?

00:15:00 Speaker_04
You're not the hero of your little story you're telling?

00:15:03 Speaker_01
Zero times. I've never been that. I'm just fucked. You're the victim in your story. I'm always the hero. That's interesting. That must be nice. What about you, Sissy?

00:15:13 Speaker_03
I always figure I need to pressure test the plan a thousand times, and then that's how I end up ordering another, well, another fire ladder or something, because I'm like, I realized I have a soft spot in my plan of what I'm going to do.

00:15:29 Speaker_01
Fire ladders. Hey, you wanna know something I just saw the other day on a reel? If you keep a bat by your bed, because a lot of people don't believe in guns and stuff, which is great, I don't either.

00:15:41 Speaker_01
If you keep a bat by your bed, put a long sock on the end of it, because if you go to hit somebody with it, an intruder, and they go to stop it, the sock will pull it off and then you can hit them again. You get two whacks at them.

00:15:56 Speaker_04
Okay, so that's good. And then also, in my head, I make up the scenario. I go through the scenario. Lots of horrific things happen. It's just, it's endless. Then I wake up sweating, but I'm not even ever asleep. Now, back to what we were talking about.

00:16:15 Speaker_01
Oh, yeah. The cliffs. The cliffs of Virginia suburbia.

00:16:19 Speaker_04
It was freaking the woods. It was an epic landscape. Got it.

00:16:24 Speaker_03
Okay. We're there with you.

00:16:26 Speaker_04
With the toddlers and their parents. Yeah. Anyway, that is a memory that is seared into my mind. And as both of you know, I think that that actual situation morphed with

00:16:44 Speaker_04
kind of a way that I see myself and my life, which is, as you know, I've told you many, many times, I always feel like I'm kind of walking on the edge of a cliff. Okay. Like that's what I'm doing. I'm walking on the edge of a cliff.

00:17:00 Speaker_04
and I feel an abyss to my side. And the abyss is like this sea of purple, swirly, silvery, sparkly, dark purple, like kind of scary, but also like a lot of depth and a little bit of magic in it. And the abyss is what I have always thought is insanity.

00:17:22 Speaker_04
It's kind of like alluring. It's like calling, okay? It's calling.

00:17:28 Speaker_03
It's like a siren calling to you.

00:17:30 Speaker_04
Yes, yes, yes. But it's my job, as I have understood it, is to stay on the motherfucking cliff, okay? Just stay the course. Stay the course. Glennon, do not jump. Are you gonna jump, Glennon? I hope I don't jump.

00:17:49 Speaker_04
I don't know who gave me the power to decide. That's what pisses me off. We just make these balconies and we just assume that people aren't going to use their own volition.

00:18:00 Speaker_04
Anyway, all the things that I have employed, all the strategies, eating disorders, alcoholism, anorexia, medication, controlling other human beings with my brain. These have all been strategies to keep me on the cliff.

00:18:23 Speaker_04
This is what I have told myself I have to do. I'm like white knuckling the handlebars.

00:18:29 Speaker_04
Whether I'm parenting, whether I'm working, whether I'm just taking a walk, whether I'm in a friendship, I am just white knuckling the handlebars so I don't veer off into the abyss of insanity, even though it looks kind of great, okay?

00:18:48 Speaker_01
That's interesting.

00:18:49 Speaker_04
Now, lately, I have one at a time taken away all of my white knuckle handlebar strategies, okay? And it kind of feels like I just let go of the handlebars completely. Feels a little ridiculous and stupid and reckless, okay?

00:19:17 Speaker_04
Lately, I have felt like I'm in the abyss. So you've jumped. I feel like I am in the abyss.

00:19:30 Speaker_01
Interesting.

00:19:31 Speaker_04
And what I would like to explain a little bit is I don't know how to describe it, so I'm just gonna tell some stories about what it feels like to be in the abyss, okay? This is fun. Nothing is good, okay? Is that true?

00:19:51 Speaker_04
Well, it's not that nothing is good. It's that I am overwhelmed all the time. Okay, maybe I shouldn't say I am overwhelmed all the time. I feel overwhelmed all the time.

00:20:06 Speaker_04
I feel like everything is too hard or too much or too good or too bad or too everything. It's just so much muchness. Here's how a few things that it feels like to be in the abyss. I have no distance from things anymore.

00:20:25 Speaker_04
It's like all the things that I had to protect me from life or from being human are gone. Just gone, all of my protections, all of my little armor, weapons, all the things. And so now it's just me and life, okay? So a few little things.

00:20:47 Speaker_04
We took this trip to Seattle because our kid was in a soccer tournament. And I do not know how we're supposed to handle our kids in soccer tournaments. These children are teenagers, young teenagers.

00:21:05 Speaker_04
This kid plays at a high level, so all of these freaking college coaches are watching them. All of their parents are gathered around, like, staring at them.

00:21:15 Speaker_04
You can, like, feel the stress and the love and the hope and the control and the pressure, and they love each other so much, but they're kind of, like, competing against each other. I just feel like I'm gonna, die from the vulnerability of it.

00:21:33 Speaker_03
Yeah. It's like so much is riding a lot of how they do. It isn't just perception is going to affect the opportunities they have because they're trying to get recruited. Right.

00:21:45 Speaker_03
So it's like, it really is that kind of how you play matters and not just to us egotistically.

00:21:54 Speaker_01
So the vulnerability you're experiencing is a vulnerability on behalf of our child or It's just like the vibe of the totality of what's happening for all of these kids.

00:22:05 Speaker_04
It's an abyss. I sit there and I, you can feel that so many of them are doing it just to like make their parents happy. And their parents are just, you can just feel the muchness of all of it. So I'm handling it. I'm, I'm doing okay.

00:22:21 Speaker_04
Sam is a coach from UF. She's so wonderful. She walks over, she and Abby are friends.

00:22:26 Speaker_01
Go Gators.

00:22:26 Speaker_04
Cause I went there, so I know them. I'm half watching the kids, half just, sometimes I just try not to. I try to distract myself. She's telling me about her kids, and they sounded so wonderful.

00:22:36 Speaker_04
I asked about one of them, and she's like, let me show you this video of my kid.

00:22:42 Speaker_04
And her kid had just gone through this season of, I think it was soccer, and their team had won no games, and they had kept trying, and then they won one game at the end of the season.

00:22:55 Speaker_04
This video was of the game ending and Sam was holding the phone and her little boy

00:23:02 Speaker_04
couldn't like they blew the whistle and they had one and this kid you could just see his face like he can't believe it and then he just takes off from his friends and runs to his mom.

00:23:14 Speaker_04
So you see him running at the camera and then you see the camera go down and she's hugging him and then he quickly hugs her and then he runs as fast as he can back to his friends and his like fist is in the air and he's like hugging his friends.

00:23:28 Speaker_04
She showed me, I just start bawling. And Sam is like, what's wrong with your wife? Like, what?

00:23:35 Speaker_01
No, she really appreciated that you were so touched by it because it is a touching thing, A, to have your kid run to you, and then B, to get it on film, and then C, after he hugs her and he's running back, he's kind of like,

00:23:51 Speaker_01
jogging back to his team to go celebrate again with his teammates, he like looks up and has this take it all in moment that like, finally, they did it. Finally, they had this moment, you know, like he finally had it.

00:24:07 Speaker_01
And as a parent, she caught it all on video, like get out of here with that. It's beautiful beyond, yeah. Yeah.

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00:27:03 Speaker_00
Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville whodunit. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out.

00:27:17 Speaker_00
Follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts.

00:27:40 Speaker_04
So then that night, Emma goes off with her friends and Abby and I are in this random city we don't know in Seattle and we wander into this tiny little restaurant. It's like the size of a kitchen. It's so small. And there's these little tables.

00:27:55 Speaker_04
There's probably 10 tables in the whole place. We walk into the restaurant and there's this couple.

00:28:02 Speaker_04
this man and this woman, young, maybe like lower 30s, I don't know, and they're eating and the woman looks over at us and you just, her face just, you can see she's recognized us in a very meaningful way.

00:28:16 Speaker_04
Like you can tell when it's somebody that is very connected to our work in the world. I can tell that she's just about to melt, so I just walk right over. She stands up. It all happens very fast. She's hugging me.

00:28:35 Speaker_04
The man that's sitting with her, no time has passed enough for her to explain anything to him or to make any explanation of what's going on.

00:28:48 Speaker_04
The man waits patiently for us to hug and then says very gently, he turns to me and says, would it be okay with you if I got a picture? Now, I don't know why that made me so, I felt like, oh my God, he is so in touch with his partner that he knows.

00:29:08 Speaker_04
She didn't say, get a picture. Like, I'm watching the whole thing. There's no way this guy knows exactly who, like, yeah. He just was so in touch. He was attuned to her.

00:29:17 Speaker_04
Yeah, and he knew that she wasn't gonna wanna ask me because she was so respectful, but he knew that it was gonna be important to her and that he should, step in for her and get what she's going to want to leave this with.

00:29:32 Speaker_04
And so we take a picture, Abby and I go sit down. And then of course, I'm like all emotional about the whole thing. And then they come over when they're leaving and I say, I just want you to know what we've been talking about is how beautiful that was.

00:29:51 Speaker_04
that you didn't have to ask, that he knew, that he asked so gently, that you all two are so attuned.

00:29:58 Speaker_04
She told us that the reason she was so emotional is that they live an hour away, that she's going through a very hard, interesting time, that she has listened to every single podcast and read every single word we've ever written, and that has gotten her through the hardest times, that she's been relying more heavily than ever on this podcast,

00:30:21 Speaker_04
lately, and that night, something was just like, go to that restaurant an hour away from their house. Whoa. And she came. We leave the restaurant, and we're walking home, and this woman, she's in this- Different woman now.

00:30:45 Speaker_01
Different woman.

00:30:46 Speaker_04
A different woman? Okay. She's in a big SUV and she's got like 17 kids in the car, okay? And she is driving by and she just screams out the window, Glennon! We love you, Glennon! And she's waving and all the kids are waving. And I just thought,

00:31:14 Speaker_04
I cannot believe this. I spend so much time being scared. I'm so scared of like the internet and like people hating me and like people, I feel so constricted all the time because I'm scared.

00:31:28 Speaker_03
Like the world is a scary place.

00:31:29 Speaker_04
The world is scary. Yeah. And so I have to be constricted and on guard and like white knuckling all the things. And I'm always white knuckling public things too. Like I don't exactly know how to handle it. I don't know what's appropriate.

00:31:46 Speaker_04
I don't know what I should protect our kids from. I don't know how to do it. And so I always feel constricted. Andrea Gibson tells the story about how they went to the Grand Canyon when they were really fucked up and like really in their depression.

00:31:59 Speaker_04
And they were, they came to the Grand Canyon and they looked at it and they were like, eh, I mean, whatever, I guess it's a big hole. You're glad I drove all this way. And then- Oh, it's so funny.

00:32:14 Speaker_01
If you've ever been to the Grand Canyon, that's hilarious.

00:32:18 Speaker_04
Yeah. And then they were in a different spiritual place in their life and they went back to the Grand Canyon and they just thought, oh my God, is this what it has always been? Like, this is the most unbelievable thing I've ever seen.

00:32:32 Speaker_04
And they talk about, of course, the Anais Nin quote, that we do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are. And that experience in Seattle, I was like, is this how it's always been? Like, am I just not afraid? Is it? I don't know.

00:32:49 Speaker_04
I felt overwhelmed by the beauty and love of it. And then a week later, we go to the NOACON concert.

00:32:57 Speaker_04
I'm standing there with the girls, and one of our kids has her girlfriend with her, and the other kid has her good friend, and Noah is just like, he does this divorce song, you know, it's about divorced kids, and he says, shout out to all the kids from divorced families, and our kids just, he's saying all my love, and they were all, the kids are just, the whole Hollywood Bowl is just bawling and screaming,

00:33:26 Speaker_04
dancing and losing their minds and I'm looking at my kids and they're bawling. And I'm like, oh my God, I was seeing them for the first time. Like they are children of divorce. Like they had their family separated. They have two houses.

00:33:47 Speaker_04
I had one of my strategies of gripping my handlebars is just to tell myself stories about how everything's okay because I did it and it's not a broken family because we're a whole family because we're fixed. We're fixed. We're not broken. We're fixed.

00:34:02 Speaker_04
We're the exception. We're the exception. Yeah. It's kind of sad, but not really. It's fine. It's kind of sad.

00:34:08 Speaker_03
It would be sad if it wasn't so magical and unique and extraordinary.

00:34:12 Speaker_04
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I was seeing them for the first time and it did not kill me. It like overwhelmed me to the point of like explosion, right? I was bawling with them. I was like, but it did not kill me.

00:34:29 Speaker_04
And I realized these narratives that I make are another strategy to keep me on the thing. I will tell you what it is. I will arrange all the chaos into a story with characters, and this is your character, and this is my character.

00:34:42 Speaker_04
The other day, we went to see our son in New York City, and being in the abyss while raising adult children, because this has been the biggest doozy for me, we walked around New York City for two hours, and then we went to a dinner.

00:34:57 Speaker_04
We took our son to dinner with two of his best friends. him and two girls, and they go to college together, and they talked about their adventures and their lives for two hours at dinner. I've never seen our kid so alive.

00:35:14 Speaker_04
They just love each other so much, and they take such good care of each other, and he just had this sense of, you could just see the belonging and the joy, and I think I thought that I was supposed to

00:35:32 Speaker_04
make everything so perfect that he would always just want to have that with us. That like our house and our town and our would be his place of belonging and joy and connection, you know?

00:35:45 Speaker_04
But when I saw that, I thought, okay, I felt such relief because I felt like he has it. And then I felt relief that I was relieved because it made me know that I don't need it to be us. I just need him to have it, you know, in general.

00:36:07 Speaker_04
So on the way home, I have this new fun thing that I think is from early menopause. I'm not sure what it is, but it's a really good time. And what it is, is that I have constant motion sickness. Okay. I used to be able to spin around in circles for fun.

00:36:24 Speaker_04
And now If I'm in a car for longer than five minutes, if I glance at my phone, if I, I can get motion sickness from watching a movie that's moving too fast. Like it's just ridiculous.

00:36:34 Speaker_04
So, and I know this, I know this, but we get in an Uber, like one of those big Ubers in New York city and it's 11 PM and Abby and I are going back to our hotel and we've got the kids.

00:36:45 Speaker_04
The kids, they're 21, but they're in the back, all lined up, the three of them, just chattering, chattering, chattering, because they're about to go off and do whatever they're, this is just like- This is the beginning of their evening.

00:36:54 Speaker_04
Yeah, this is lunch for them, right? This is pregame. Right. but they're talking about like relationships, and one of them turns to Chase and says, well, you're securely attached, so you're good. But I almost died. I just almost exploded. I'm like, wait.

00:37:08 Speaker_04
No. It's all I could do just to not stop them and say, did you say he's securely attached? Do you think that's because of me? Do you, can we talk about this more?

00:37:17 Speaker_03
Wait, did they agree? Did your child agree? He did. Was your child like, yes. Oh Jesus, just retire. That's the closest you could get to an A plus valedictory address.

00:37:28 Speaker_04
Well, as a parent, you know that like how much that meant to me to hear because it has been, I have felt like, I'll talk about this in another episode, but I have felt like maybe I did everything wrong.

00:37:41 Speaker_04
Maybe like I have started to see myself from his eyes in a way that has freaked me the fuck out and made me lose myself a little bit. I think it might just be something that happens as they get older, but it's been hard.

00:37:54 Speaker_04
It's been the hardest phase of parenting for me, and it's all been internal. Nobody else has done anything.

00:38:01 Speaker_01
It's just been internal, so. I'll never forget that moment as long as I live, because Glennon and I got to do the look. Even though she was experiencing insane nausea, she looked at me, and I looked at her, and our eyes were like,

00:38:14 Speaker_02
We're gonna talk about this later. How do they know about secure attachment? Oh my God, oh my God, can I get this in writing?

00:38:20 Speaker_04
Okay, so I'm there in the back, like Abby and I are in the two like bucket seats, you know? And I am looking at them, sister, and I am so sick. I am close to throwing up. I cannot stop looking at them. I cannot, I was like, I don't care.

00:38:46 Speaker_04
I just, they were so, they were the three of them were the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen and I could not stop looking at them. We get to the hotel, I get in my room, I throw up for two hours. I'm sick for 24 hours, okay? I would do it again.

00:39:08 Speaker_04
It was too beautiful to look away from. Being in the abyss is much, much messier than being on the top of the cliff. I feel out of control all the time. I feel overwhelmed all the time. I feel very messy. I feel confused. I feel so much more.

00:39:41 Speaker_04
And what I figured out just about a week ago is that the abyss, the purple, swirly, silvery, sparkly abyss that has been calling to me since I was 10 is not insanity. It is life. It is life.

00:40:10 Speaker_04
It is being fully human and present without all of the things that we put in our lives to protect ourselves. And the reason why being in the abyss is so overwhelming is because it's supposed to be, is because it's just

00:40:36 Speaker_04
Love, it's like to be really alive with a wide open heart and to be that present with things you love and things you're afraid of and all of your messy mistakes and all of it, it's not insanity, it's like the truest reality, right?

00:41:06 Speaker_04
There are definitely times where I feel like I enjoyed being on the cliff better. It was easier to have some distance between me and everything. And I kind of feel like I'm annoying now.

00:41:24 Speaker_04
All of the things that kept me on the cliff also gave me this kind of like cooler, detached thing where things didn't affect me as much. So I wasn't so desperate.

00:41:37 Speaker_04
Like I feel very desperate lately, desperate to like, I don't even know for what, like for the kids to understand me in every way, for everyone to know I love them. I just feel desperate all the time. I think I'm more annoying. I think I'm more needy.

00:41:51 Speaker_04
I think I'm less efficient. I'm more confused.

00:41:59 Speaker_04
But you know how like if you're having dinner with somebody and they have a couple glasses of wine or pills they don't need and they act a certain way and you don't know who they are really, their reactions might be a certain way and you take it as who they are, but

00:42:26 Speaker_04
the thing is between you, like you can't really know who they are because it's not their natural reaction.

00:42:32 Speaker_03
Or you wonder, is that their actual reaction, who you deal with normally is not them? Like it is, there's like an alter, you're like, oh, now I'm dealing with Betsy 2.0.

00:42:43 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:42:44 Speaker_03
There's a 1.0 and a 2.0 version of you, which one?

00:42:47 Speaker_04
Yeah, so I feel like even if I now am, like say to the kids or like, less together, less held together, less pretending that I know what I'm doing, less detached, less cool and calm. I do feel like they can feel my love more probably.

00:43:19 Speaker_01
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00:43:31 Speaker_01
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00:43:42 Speaker_04
Actually, you wear them to work out and you wear them out to dinner. That is true.

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And you wear them under suits, and you wear them to bed.

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00:45:31 Speaker_03
It makes perfect sense to me. When you're talking about the cliff, right, the cliff is so much simpler because you only have one job. Your job on the cliff is very, very clear and clarity is very helpful.

00:45:55 Speaker_03
And so your one job is to keep your ass on the path. And so you might have constant fear, but the only thing you have to metabolize is fear. That's the only emotion.

00:46:11 Speaker_03
You just have to keep feeling the fear, only emotion coming in, and your only job is to control your direction. So I'm controlling my direction. I'm only feeling the fear. That's all I have to do. And so that's simple.

00:46:34 Speaker_03
And the promise of that is that'll keep you safe. But the highest upside reward is remaining in fear and control for the rest of your life. But when you go off the cliff, you have to metabolize everything. No matter what, it's coming at ya.

00:46:56 Speaker_03
It's like the real Kikwo, let everything happen to you. Yes, no failing is final. You just have to let everything happen to you. And so you're like up and down.

00:47:08 Speaker_03
You can't even anticipate what your job is because every moment is going to either make you buckle to your knees in like the glory of the Shakespearean moment of the five-year-old on the soccer team,

00:47:20 Speaker_03
or break your heart because you realize your baby's never gonna be a baby and whatever. It's just what letting everything happen to you, which is the promise and the reward. Yes. And the terror.

00:47:35 Speaker_04
Yeah, and it's like when you're on the cliff, you are driving. You're in control.

00:47:43 Speaker_05
Mm-hmm.

00:47:44 Speaker_04
And then the swirly abyss, you are surrendered to the swirling. I do just feel like I'm taken over by a swirly situation. And every once in a while, I'm just popping up and like yelling something. I don't even know. Like I have absolutely no control.

00:48:04 Speaker_01
Well, I think what's happened, because like with everything new, like this jumping into the purple swirly abyss, It makes sense to me that it feels uncomfortable.

00:48:16 Speaker_01
It makes sense to me that you feel confused and overwhelmed and everything is happening all at once, seemingly.

00:48:24 Speaker_01
But I think part of what you're going through is that you've brought a little bit of the cliff, dare I say, rigidity and control and trying to apply some of those mechanisms that you learn into this purple swirly abyss.

00:48:42 Speaker_01
And so I think that that's why it feels uncomfortable. So makes sense. Of course you would do that. Like you, you bring what you know into new experiences.

00:48:53 Speaker_01
And so to me, it feels like it won't be as uncomfortable forever because you will learn how to flow with the purple swirly, glittery, mechanism that's in the abyss.

00:49:11 Speaker_04
Well, it's interesting that you use the word metabolize. Like how do you metabolize it all?

00:49:18 Speaker_04
Because I think it's another version of like the word anorexia is sort of ridiculous because it like implies that it's all about food, but it's not, it's just a complete way of life. It's the person on the cliff with the handlebars.

00:49:38 Speaker_04
I did not know that I could metabolize food like everyone else and just keep going. That was a unbelievable discovery for me. And I think that I also didn't know that I could just metabolize feelings, that it wouldn't kill me.

00:49:57 Speaker_04
The feelings that have come up in the last six months, two years, I can't believe

00:50:09 Speaker_04
I've had days where I didn't think that it was okay, like how strong they were, but all of the mechanisms that I used were to protect myself from big feelings because I felt like I would not be able to metabolize them and go on.

00:50:29 Speaker_04
And like the discovery that I had with physical things and food is the same as the discovery that I'm having with emotional things that I can in fact. It might not be pretty.

00:50:43 Speaker_04
It might not look like a day I used to have where it's just one thing after the other on the to-do list and I can handle all of it because I'm not in any of the things, but I have survived.

00:51:01 Speaker_03
Right? Do you know what you're talking about reminds me a lot of

00:51:06 Speaker_03
Dr. Dan Siegel's model of healthy minds, because it's a different analogy from the cliff and the water, but he talks about how there are like two banks on a river and one bank of the river is chaos. And a lot of people live there.

00:51:29 Speaker_03
And that's this idea that we feel all out of control in our life. We are caught in this turmoil. We have no control over it. It's like instability, anxiety, fear, all the things. And then the other side of the river is rigidity.

00:51:45 Speaker_03
And that is this idea that if we impose enough control over everything and everyone around us, and we just never try to adapt to anything going on, but we'd stay the course of where we are, then we will

00:52:00 Speaker_03
just maintain control and nothing bad will happen to us. So one side of the river is like pure fear and anxiety. The other side of the river is like utter stagnation because all you're trying to do is have control.

00:52:13 Speaker_03
And like where you want to be is in the flow of the river between. Like where you are finding the balance between some chaos and some rigidity where you're like, I do have some ways of living that I want to have.

00:52:35 Speaker_03
I do have this like canoe to keep me afloat, but I'm letting it flow. Like I am letting the river take me where it's going. So it's like, I don't know exactly how we're going to get there. I trust we're going to get there. Like I am flowing.

00:52:49 Speaker_03
I'm not fighting the rapid. I'm going, you know? And so it's a really interesting way to think about it. And also I think it's a good clue. Like when life is full of chaos, we're probably like hugging one of the banks too much.

00:53:08 Speaker_03
And when it's just full of stagnation and we feel threatened by the idea of being flexible about anything, we're probably on the other side.

00:53:19 Speaker_04
Yeah. That's what I've got for you today. I feel.

00:53:22 Speaker_01
But I feel impressed by you. Yeah. Because I have watched you experience a lot of this discomfort over the last many months. and as the person in your life that it does not sit very well when you're uncomfortable. I like to fix problems.

00:53:39 Speaker_01
It has been difficult to watch, but I think slowly but surely there's this confidence that's brewing inside of you that you're like, I'm not going to be killed by my emotions. The world is not going to kill me. Yes, this is a lot.

00:53:57 Speaker_01
Yes, this is overwhelming. And I think that the courage that it's taken for you to do this, especially because it's making you look at your whole life, all of the relationships, your children, me, your family, all of it.

00:54:13 Speaker_01
And you're like, I'm going to survive this. Like I feel this, I've got me energy. And boy, is it really scary for me because I like to be the one that's got you.

00:54:27 Speaker_04
That's interesting.

00:54:29 Speaker_01
But I'm sitting on my hands and I am doing my time also. But I just think that you are coming through this extraordinary period of your life and it's just been really beautiful to watch.

00:54:42 Speaker_04
Thank you, babe. I think I was thinking last night about how all of these things that I have had to discover through this work and actual embodiment and actually taking things away that I was using as protection from life.

00:55:02 Speaker_04
I was writing this in Untamed. There's whole chapters about feeling it all, about not being killed, about the ache and entering the ache and like how that is life. And like the ache is where the bravest people meet each other and how

00:55:18 Speaker_04
the only thing worse than feeling at all is missing any of it.

00:55:23 Speaker_04
And I was writing all of that while severely anorexic, heavily medicated, all, I didn't know that, but it makes me emotional because it feels like my writing self is just me five years ahead of me.

00:55:38 Speaker_04
It's like an arrow pointing me towards this is where we're going and your brain knows it, your spirit knows it before your body does, but like you cannot, Glennon learn anything but the hard way.

00:55:51 Speaker_04
Like you cannot, it's just gonna be a doozy of a five years, but this is where we're going. I feel like a lot of people write and it's like, this is where they were. And mine is always like, this is where I hope to be soon.

00:56:05 Speaker_04
You're imagining the truest, most beautiful life. Yeah. So anyway, thanks for listening you all. And yeah, I actually just feel like thanks for listening. You're welcome.

00:56:15 Speaker_03
Thank you for sharing. And on another day, I want to know how you think you slid into the water, like how you got yourself off the path. And was it just removing?

00:56:27 Speaker_03
And I don't mean just as if that wasn't a Herculean effort, but was it the removal and the not relying on the coping strategies that got you in the water? You know what I mean? Because that would be if you know that you're a person on the path,

00:56:43 Speaker_03
And you want to like submit to the swirl.

00:56:46 Speaker_04
I think it's the Rumi thing. It's like our job is not to seek for love, but to remove all the obstacles that we have built between ourselves and love. And those things are different for everyone.

00:56:59 Speaker_04
It's one at a time removing the walls that you needed, that you built. I mean, look, we were all raised by human beings, which means that our first environments were places where we learned what was going to threaten our attachment to them.

00:57:16 Speaker_04
And so in our situation, everybody has different situations with their parents, but when we were in a situation where our muchness big feelings, big appetites, was absolutely disallowed. And it didn't always have to be in words.

00:57:37 Speaker_04
It was in body, it was in energy. But when I learned very early that messiness, bigness, gooeyness, juiciness, confusion, indulgence, indulgence, big feelings, big whatever was absolutely a threat and not what we're doing here.

00:58:04 Speaker_04
This is not hard to put together. Okay. Like eggshells, keep it small, keep it quiet. Of course. So how do you do it? You figure out what was disallowed, what part of your humanity was disallowed. in your earliest environments is still disallowed.

00:58:24 Speaker_04
In your culture, you figure out what part of you threatened your survival in the first half of your life. And you're thriving in the second half of your life is reclaiming that thing. That's good. That threatened your survival in the first half.

00:58:44 Speaker_04
And it's different for everybody because everybody has a different family and culture and life, you know, time they're here. It's always different, but we all have things that we have built up to protect ourselves from life. And I have a few more.

00:59:00 Speaker_04
And the adventure of a lifetime for me has never been like, go see this place or go bucket listy things. I'll do it because Abby wants to do it, but I'm just like, okay, here's another hotel. Like, okay, that's a mountain. Like it doesn't do it for me.

00:59:14 Speaker_04
What the adventure of a lifetime for me is to like experiment with removing blocks between me and life.

00:59:21 Speaker_04
Because for me now, the more walls I remove, I am as moved to tears taking a walk and seeing a dad with his kid playing rock, paper, scissors on the sidewalk as if no one else is around and lighting each other's faces up.

00:59:39 Speaker_04
There's no way I would be more moved by the Grand Canyon. Doesn't matter where you are. If you have nothing between you and life, life is everywhere breathtaking. You don't have to go anywhere. It's like God. So, yeah.

00:59:58 Speaker_01
I think that that's a perfect way to end.

01:00:01 Speaker_04
Okay. I love you all. Thanks. I don't know. I don't know.

01:00:05 Speaker_01
Beautiful.

01:00:06 Speaker_04
Bye. We love you, pod squad. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

01:00:28 Speaker_04
Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts,

01:00:40 Speaker_04
Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod.

01:00:50 Speaker_04
While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

01:01:00 Speaker_04
We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

01:01:08 Speaker_04
Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.