Fishing for Flavour with Sustainable Alternative Seafood AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast The Food Fight

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Fishing for Flavour with Sustainable Alternative Seafood) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Go to PodExtra AI's podcast page (The Food Fight) to view the AI-processed content of all episodes of this podcast.

The Food Fight episodes list: view full AI transcripts and summaries of this podcast on the blog

Episode: Fishing for Flavour with Sustainable Alternative Seafood

Author: EIT Food
Duration: 00:56:44

Episode Shownotes

In this episode of the Food Fight podcast, host Matt Eastland dives deep into the world of alternative seafood with pioneers Deniz Ficicioglu, co-founder of Betta Fish, and Sina Albanese, co-founder of Koralo. These innovators are reshaping the seafood industry by developing plant-based and microalgae-based seafood alternatives, addressing some of

the most critical environmental and ethical issues facing the oceans today. From overfishing to habitat destruction, Deniz and Sina share how their work is paving the way for a more sustainable and nutritious future.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_01
Paper or plastic? Oh, I forgot my own bags. Plastic. No, wait, paper. Hang on, which one's better? I don't know. Don't stress, Neil. The podcast Living Planet is here to help.

00:00:11 Speaker_01
We know you want to do what's right for the planet, but you're busy and you have to make 1,000 small decisions every day. So we endeavor to answer, what's better? Cotton or polyester? Tea or coffee?

00:00:23 Speaker_01
For answers to these environmental conundrums and your questions, subscribe to Living Planet wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:00:39 Speaker_00
Hi everyone, I'm Matt Easton and welcome to the Food Fight podcast from EIT Food, exploring the greatest challenges facing the food system and the innovations and entrepreneurs looking to solve them.

00:00:51 Speaker_00
In this episode, we are making waves by turning our attention to the oceans. So our seas have long suffered from overfishing, from pollution and from destructive farming practices, putting immense pressure on marine life and our food system.

00:01:06 Speaker_00
But thankfully, innovation, technology and science are offering us hope. Today we're speaking with pioneers in the alternative seafood industry who are creating sustainable, healthy and vegan fish alternatives.

00:01:18 Speaker_00
These trailblazers are not only providing delicious and nutritious options, but are also addressing critical issues like bycatch, water use and habitat loss.

00:01:27 Speaker_00
So let's dive in and discover how these innovators are leading the charge towards a more sustainable future for our oceans.

00:01:34 Speaker_00
Joining us today is Denise Fitcher Giolo, co-founder of Better Fish, who are doing incredible things with plant-based tuna, and Sina Albanese, co-founder of Corallo, who are making alternative seafood products using co-fermented microalgae and mushroom roots.

00:01:50 Speaker_00
Both of you, amazing to have you on the show. Welcome to The Food Fight.

00:01:54 Speaker_03
Thanks for having us. Amazing being here.

00:01:57 Speaker_00
Great stuff. Great to have you both here. Over the past seasons of the show, we've talked a lot about alternative products. So we've spoken about alternative meats, cultured meats. We've spoken about alternative milks.

00:02:09 Speaker_00
We've even covered sugar alternatives. But it's starting to really feel now like fish alternatives are the new big thing, like particularly when it's coming to using seaweed. But I guess my question is, why now? Why is this becoming such a big thing?

00:02:24 Speaker_00
Sina, maybe we can start with yourself.

00:02:26 Speaker_03
Well, we spoke about it before, you quickly touched upon it, that wild catch, so what fish and seafood we get from our oceans is currently stagnant or actually decreasing.

00:02:38 Speaker_03
So just this year, a report came out that 50% of all of our seafood actually comes from aquaculture. So it's farmed seafood.

00:02:46 Speaker_03
Which is actually insane to think about, because we always have this idea in mind that we're eating seafood from the ocean or from the seas. And it's actually really not true.

00:02:56 Speaker_03
Actually, if you think about it, every second piece of seafood or fish you eat is farmed.

00:03:02 Speaker_03
So I think why it's coming up now is we see, OK, there are certain species we simply cannot farm, or it's very difficult to farm, or prices are getting more expensive because we have a limited supply.

00:03:15 Speaker_03
And I think both on the consumer side, as well as on, let's say, the food service side and the food manufacturing side, you're seeing this pressure building up.

00:03:26 Speaker_03
And that's why I think now we're starting to realize, OK, if we're actually going to create seafood in terms of farming it and growing it, how can we do that in different ways?

00:03:37 Speaker_03
And I think that's really where this supply source of new types of seafood, which Yeah, Better Fish and Corallo are trying to do really come into play. And I think that's why it's becoming more of a trend recently.

00:03:50 Speaker_00
Thanks, Sina. God, I didn't even realize it's one in two pieces of our seafood are actually farmed. And I wonder how many consumers are aware of that. But maybe we can get into that.

00:03:58 Speaker_00
Denise, what are the major issues you think are facing the seafood industry today?

00:04:05 Speaker_02
Oof, I mean, there are quite a few issues. Yeah, exactly. Where to start? I mean, Sina already mentioned a few, right? I mean, the growing aquaculture part in the seafood industry obviously creates new problems.

00:04:19 Speaker_02
I mean, there are a lot of fish species, specifically smaller fish species that are primarily caught just to feed into aquaculture. And these are not the fish species that usually would end up on our plates.

00:04:31 Speaker_02
Basically, we are depleting the oceans on all levels. Then there's the topic of acidification, like the oceans are getting more acidic, which is a direct result of our human activities and increased CO2 emissions.

00:04:48 Speaker_02
And it results in, for example, crustaceans, molluscs and corals. being not able anymore to build their shells or their structure, which obviously has a negative effect on the oceans.

00:05:03 Speaker_02
There are so many things that are wrong with the ocean economy at the moment. Increased number of dead zones. because we lack from the excessive land-based agriculture.

00:05:15 Speaker_02
We have a lot of nutrients that pour into our oceans and then result in an excess of nutrients, dead zones, etc., which further feed into the spiral of reducing the amount of fish stocks.

00:05:30 Speaker_02
Deep sea mining is a huge topic that's been coming up recently a lot. I hope we will be able to avoid. And all of this is happening to the ocean, which is our largest storage of CO2 on the whole planet.

00:05:44 Speaker_02
And the seafood industry is basically just feeding into this. So there are massive things that are wrong. And the seafood industry, like the traditional seafood industry, they are fully aware of that, but they don't have any alternatives at the moment.

00:05:58 Speaker_02
And obviously, they still need to make money. So they're not incentivized to make the transition to any better options.

00:06:06 Speaker_00
When you paint it like that, both of you, it is really shocking and it's really sad.

00:06:11 Speaker_00
But I guess thank goodness that there are people like yourselves out there who are trying to change the way that this is done and offering these alternatives to industries.

00:06:22 Speaker_00
I'd love to kind of get into with you both where your ideas came from, and I'm assuming it's kind of born out of this awareness of the shock of what's happening in our oceans. But Denise, can I stay with you? So I know that you're a published author.

00:06:39 Speaker_00
And you've said that I think it was the challenges with your own diet have actually put you on the path to plant-based seafood.

00:06:46 Speaker_00
So I'd love to understand more about how your own experiences have influenced the founding of Better Fish and the vision, I guess, for your company.

00:06:56 Speaker_02
Yeah, happy to share this. Exactly right what you said. So my whole journey into food started already 14 years ago on a very personal level, because I can't eat sugar and wheat.

00:07:08 Speaker_02
And back then, I was trying to adjust my diet and look into things I can still eat. And when I walked into the supermarket to find new products for new recipes without sugar or wheat, I left with an empty basket.

00:07:22 Speaker_02
I was completely in shock the moment I actually started to read the nutritional labels. like that there's wheat and sugar in everything, not just wheat and sugar, corn, soy, you know, a lot of like monocultured crops.

00:07:37 Speaker_02
And that our whole food system is based on these monocultured crops. And for me, this was a huge shock and a huge aha moment at the same time where I was like, okay,

00:07:46 Speaker_02
I want to make a difference in terms of I want to come up with better products and better ideas, recipes, better ways that we can feed our body with nutritious food, but also at the same time do something good for the planet.

00:08:02 Speaker_02
And from that aha moment to actually finding Bettafish, there was a long journey, like we said, publishing cookbooks, starting to work in other food tech startups. But in my last role, I was researching even more about the future of food.

00:08:17 Speaker_02
If you think about the future of food, there is no way around seaweed. Seaweed, macroalgae have to be an integral part of the future of our food system. I was

00:08:29 Speaker_02
surprised that, you know, all these benefits that we're probably going to dive in later of seaweed are known for decades, but it's still not a commodity, you know, in a positive sense in the food industry and that we don't use seaweed that much in our foods today.

00:08:45 Speaker_02
And that kind of led me to building Better Fish because at the core and the heart of the company, we are a seaweed company, but we needed to find a way to make seaweed more attractive to consumers and Yeah, to consumers out there.

00:08:59 Speaker_02
And that's why we built Better Fish as our Trojan horse, as our vehicle, to make something tasty out of seaweed.

00:09:06 Speaker_00
Amazing. And your products that you actually make, which I love, by the way. So you have a product called Tuna, which, of course, for the listeners won't make any sense in terms, doesn't sound any different, but it's actually Tuna. I totally get it.

00:09:23 Speaker_00
Love that. And your alternatives are now on Sal Nom as well. And I think as well, I've even saw an alternative fish pizza, which I have to understand about because I'm obsessed with pizza.

00:09:37 Speaker_00
If you can make it out of alternative fish products, so much the better. But can I ask why the focus predominantly on tuna versus kind of other chosen products? Or is this just the first big one that you went with?

00:09:50 Speaker_02
Yeah, so when we started looking into what kind of ingredients can we turn seaweed into, what kind of applications can we build out of seaweed, for us the whole seafood space was the first choice because it just makes sense to replace an animal from the ocean with plants from the oceans.

00:10:09 Speaker_02
instead of going for wheat and soil over again. For us, this was like authentic ocean flavor, authentic fish flavor, coming from a variety and a mix of these.

00:10:19 Speaker_02
I mean, we're not using yet 10,000 of seaweed species in our products, but there's the option to use 10,000 different seaweed species. This was for us the most logical first step.

00:10:28 Speaker_02
And we chose tuna because it's one of the favorite fish species across the globe. If I would show you a can of tuna, like our tuna, or I would drop it out of a plane wherever in the world, people would recognize it and understand what it is.

00:10:44 Speaker_02
shocking in one way, but also, you know, good for us, because this means that there's a huge leverage for us to have impact.

00:10:52 Speaker_02
And when we don't look deeper into the tuna numbers, we realize that it's not the fancy tuna steak that people eat on a daily basis, but this canned tuna and 80% of all tuna consumed globally is actually canned tuna.

00:11:05 Speaker_02
So this massive opportunity for us to go into this, create something better and take off the pressure from fish stocks and keep the fish in the oceans. And there's a huge convenience factor to a can of tuna.

00:11:17 Speaker_02
You just open it and put it on top of salad, into pasta or pizza. To comment on that, tuna pizza is one of the top three pizza in Germany. Like, I don't know how and why. Yes, yeah, true.

00:11:30 Speaker_02
Like, basically all students, like, until recently, before there was a trend, obviously, to go more planned days, were living off tuna pizza.

00:11:39 Speaker_00
Really? Wow. OK, so this is something I have not tried yet. It is absolutely going to be the next thing I try, so can't wait for that. No, it all totally makes sense. And Sina, over to you now.

00:11:50 Speaker_00
So, I know that your own journey with Corallo began with an idea inspired, I think, by a beachside walk with your dad. So, can you tell us more about that moment and how that has evolved into the vision behind Corallo?

00:12:07 Speaker_03
So it did all start with a beach walk. But yeah, maybe to give just a little bit more context to that, I actually used to play football and I really liked doing that a lot.

00:12:20 Speaker_00
That was going to be my next question, but OK, go for it.

00:12:24 Speaker_03
So I used to play football, that was my first career. And I was already vegetarian back then, so I really loved seafood, but I decided, OK, I see the negative effect it has, so I will try to cut it out more.

00:12:36 Speaker_03
I was working with a nutritionist at the time, and he said, impossible, you cannot be vegetarian or vegan and be a football player. Like, I cannot make a diet plan for you. I said, come on, let's try.

00:12:46 Speaker_03
Like, no meat, that's non-negotiable, and no seafood if possible.

00:12:51 Speaker_03
And it was really interesting to see how it evolved and to see, OK, you can get actually super high nutritious foods without consuming any animal protein at all, because there is so much protein already out there.

00:13:02 Speaker_03
So that got my head started around, OK, how can we feed and boost our bodies more with, let's say, sustainable nutrition?

00:13:10 Speaker_03
Yeah, my passion for sustainability also started because in high school, we were writing a lot into textbooks and wasting a lot of paper. And me and my friends said, well, isn't there a better alternative?

00:13:21 Speaker_03
So we said, OK, there's this paper which is made out of stone and calcium carbonate, which basically, if you put it in a microwave, everything you wrote would disappear. And we thought, man, this is such a cool concept. Like, let's get investors.

00:13:36 Speaker_03
So all our friends and family to put in some money. We do one production run. We sell this to all the people in the school. And that was essentially my first startup experience. And it really

00:13:47 Speaker_03
gave me this drive to say, man, you can change something if you see something cool and innovation and it works. Why not try? So I think that for me was like the start between nutrition and innovation and startups. And then we come to the beach walk.

00:14:04 Speaker_03
So I had been reading a lot about seaweeds and these kind of things. So I was taking a walk with my dad and I was seeing the seaweed and I was telling him, boy, I've been reading so much. It's super nutritious. Like, it's super good for you.

00:14:17 Speaker_03
Like, why are we not using this more in the food industry? And keep in mind, he had worked 20 years in the food industry. I said, come on, let's do something. Can you come up with something? He said, well, I don't know, Sina. I'm not a genius. Calm down.

00:14:31 Speaker_03
But yeah, he spoke to an old colleague of his. And he said, well, maybe I have this idea. I don't know.

00:14:37 Speaker_03
And so basically, you have an engineer and someone who worked in the food industry a long time who says, boy, I have this crazy idea, his ex-colleague.

00:14:45 Speaker_03
I didn't know at the time, but I said, well, you know, why don't you guys just try it out, see if it works? Like, who knows, you know?

00:14:52 Speaker_03
So we hired a biologist and she said, well, I actually don't think this will work at all, but you know, I'll give it a shot. So we have a food builder and engineer and a foodie coming together with a biologist.

00:15:03 Speaker_03
And this is microbiology, so it's really a funny story. And yeah, we got the first kind of prototypes. It was little things, barely edible, but really we saw, okay, it can work like in its biology. So we just kept moving from there.

00:15:20 Speaker_03
And yeah, now it's really crazy to see what it's evolved into.

00:15:24 Speaker_00
That's amazing. Also, it sounds almost like the start of a joke, isn't it? It's like an engineer, a footballer and a microbiologist walk into a bar, that kind of thing. It's incredible.

00:15:34 Speaker_00
Let me just pause for a second, because I think this needs to be pulled out. You very humbly said that your first career was in football, but actually it was the German team Bayern Munich, so kudos. But I mean, how and why did you move?

00:15:51 Speaker_00
I mean, because that must have been such a hard decision for you, wasn't it? To go from something which I'm assuming was a passion for and probably still is for you then, into looking to change the food industry.

00:16:03 Speaker_00
What made you pivot and how difficult was that to do for you?

00:16:09 Speaker_03
I think it's definitely super different, but in a sense, I would say there's many parallels that I take from both playing football and running a startup.

00:16:18 Speaker_03
I think it's kind of this dream vision to keep driving and pushing yourself for something better.

00:16:23 Speaker_03
And I would say in football, I struggled at the beginning a lot with it, but you keep training and they always say, well, 20% is talent and 80% is training.

00:16:34 Speaker_03
I think probably if you translate that into startups, I would say 20% is initial skills you bring and 80% is trialing and error and learning and going along the journey.

00:16:45 Speaker_03
So I think what made me say, okay, I stopped playing football entirely was essentially this point when I saw I'm waking up every day but I don't think okay I can change the world playing football.

00:16:59 Speaker_03
So for me it was this drive to say what more can I achieve and what can I change and what positive impact can I have on either people or on the planet. And with football I didn't see that and for me starting this first startup

00:17:14 Speaker_03
in, let's say, reusable notebooks was this lighting of a fire to say, OK, you can actually have an impact, whether that's on the people or the planet.

00:17:24 Speaker_03
And I said, OK, if this is really my path and I can really impact something and do something, then I will continue this and go down that route. And I think it was a challenging decision at the time, but I for sure don't regret it at all.

00:17:38 Speaker_03
Yeah, now I think I have even more passion for what I do.

00:17:42 Speaker_00
Amazing. I love that. I feel very inspired. I feel like I should be going out now and, you know, really doing something different. So thank you for that. And let's talk about the sort of the actual product developments, the innovation themselves.

00:17:54 Speaker_00
So Sina, maybe we can stay with you. So you're using co-fermented microalgae and mushroom roots, which I find really fascinating. So what drove you to put those two really amazing products together? How did you kind of come to that?

00:18:11 Speaker_03
Great question. I mean, the science behind it is a bit crazy, but I think I can explain it in words.

00:18:16 Speaker_03
But if you really want to see how it works, we just released a motion graphic, which literally anyone can understand, even our three-year-old nephew of the company. I think that's probably the better explanation.

00:18:29 Speaker_03
But in a nutshell, essentially what we saw was that if you look at the food chain in our oceans, it all starts with microscopic algae. So they take on sunlight and CO2 and convert that into omega-3s, vitamins and proteins.

00:18:43 Speaker_03
And basically it goes up the food chain eaten by very small fish and seafoods. And then it goes up the food chain until we enjoy them as fish on our plates. with something that grows muscle-like structures incredibly quickly.

00:19:00 Speaker_03
And we said, OK, well, that's, you know, mushroom roots. Mycelium have proven to do that. So you basically can have the texture that you want to have in seafood.

00:19:11 Speaker_03
So this muscle-like structure, and you combine it with the source of nutrition that we enjoy in fish. and you get this nutrition-packed deliciousness with an incredible texture. And then it's a new type of seafood, essentially.

00:19:26 Speaker_03
So we're recreating aquaculture with other organisms. So for me, this is really a fascinating technology. Essentially, I would say it's not alternative protein, but it's a new form of aquaculture, because essentially that's all we're doing.

00:19:41 Speaker_00
That's incredible. I mean, when you explain it like that, it sounds like the choice was so simple, but I'm assuming there was an awful lot of research and thinking that went into that. But how amazing to put those two things together.

00:19:53 Speaker_00
And Denise, so Better Fish's plant-based tuna uses European seaweed and legumes.

00:20:00 Speaker_00
So can you walk us through the process of how you develop the product and you have to tell me how you go through the whole harvesting process as well because I'm just fascinated to know how do you go out harvest this and get it to where it's meant to be got to and process it and all those things.

00:20:17 Speaker_02
Yeah, sure. Happy to share. I mean, the fascinating thing about seaweed is, you know, when we step onto the shore and look out into the ocean, you don't see anything, right? Everything happens below the water surface.

00:20:29 Speaker_02
And there's this, similar to what Sina shared, you know, there are these forests of macroalgae, these forests of seaweed and these 10,000 different species. So we have to differentiate here between controlled wild harvests and farmed seaweed.

00:20:43 Speaker_02
There are a lot of seaweed species that can't be farmed yet because there's just so little research. In general, the oceans are completely under-researched, underfunded.

00:20:55 Speaker_02
And there are really basically a few pioneers in Europe who started to farm seaweed around 10 years ago. And right now in Europe, you can farm around 10 10 species out of these 10,000.

00:21:08 Speaker_02
And what they usually do is they collect the seedlings of the seaweed. They take them to the hatchery. They put them in saltwater tanks where the seedlings attach to thick ropes.

00:21:20 Speaker_02
And as soon as the seedlings are a few centimeters big, they deploy the ropes into the open water again. So all the seaweed that we use really grows in the open waters. meaning it's like the zero input crop.

00:21:32 Speaker_02
It doesn't need any fresh water, any soil, any fertilizers, any pesticides to grow, but it takes up the excess nutrients from its surroundings. I mentioned all the excess nutrients that get washed into the oceans from agriculture practices.

00:21:47 Speaker_02
So this is really a win-win because otherwise the nutrients would either get lost or create uncontrolled algae blooms, which we don't want. So then, you know, you have these ropes deployed in the ocean.

00:21:59 Speaker_02
And because seaweed is one of the fastest growing biomass on earth, after already four months, you know, it can get like the species we use can get up to two meters.

00:22:07 Speaker_02
And then it's already, you know, it's not us who go out, but it's really our seaweed farmers, our partners that we work with, the pioneers.

00:22:16 Speaker_02
We then go out and obviously under good weather conditions, they bring up the ropes again, they have special boats for that, they cut up the seaweed and then they transport it back to land.

00:22:26 Speaker_02
And this is actually already the moment where we step onto the stage because until we started working with the seaweed. Most of the seaweed farmers just took the seaweed and dried it, or they took the seaweed and put it into freezing storage.

00:22:41 Speaker_02
For example, Norway, there's a huge fish industry and a huge infrastructure around that, everything gets frozen. So the seaweed also got frozen. But if you think about all the food and ingredients that we use in our food system today,

00:22:54 Speaker_02
like we don't just use the ingredient pure as is. They get processed in some way or another. My favorite example is the coffee bean.

00:23:03 Speaker_02
Like how on earth did anyone come up with the idea to peel a coffee bean, to ferment it, to dry it, to roast it, to grind it, and then pour hot water on it? And now we're drinking it all on a daily basis.

00:23:14 Speaker_02
And this was our example for what we need to do with all these different seaweed species. I mean, we're not doing exactly that, but we are looking into all these different seaweed species and looking

00:23:24 Speaker_02
Does this species, you know, does this kind of seaweed get better if we roast it? Does it get better if we ferment it? You know, what kind of seaweed do we need to combine it?

00:23:32 Speaker_02
And this way, we are kind of building our Lego kit of different seaweed ingredients, processed in different ways, and then we have them either in powdered or in liquid form. And we can then decide, okay, what makes sense to build out of it?

00:23:47 Speaker_02
And for us, obviously, the first challenge or the first goal was to create alternative seafood. And that's why we specifically worked on both ends, creating the specific seaweed ingredients to go into the tuna, but also creating the tuna.

00:23:59 Speaker_02
And we don't have any facilities on our own, but we always work with different processing partners along the way to create these unique mixes. The tuna itself and the processes itself are developed in-house, and this is what our core R&D is.

00:24:15 Speaker_02
And for the tuna, I think we needed one and a half years for the first version, you know, to be really good looking, tasty, not green and really interesting for anyone to put on shelves.

00:24:28 Speaker_02
But to be honest, even since the first version of the tuna that we launched, we've been we've continued to, you know, iterate and continue to improve the recipe.

00:24:40 Speaker_02
And because every day we're learning some new methods on how to process seaweed and how to really get to the nutrients that we want, the flavor profiles that we want.

00:24:49 Speaker_02
And for example, the canned version of the tuna that only was launched half a year ago is a completely different formulation of the tuna we launched on the sandwiches three years ago, because they have completely different requirements in the production.

00:25:03 Speaker_02
The one can be produced fresh and the other one needs to resist a lot of heat and pressure, and it still needs to taste good at the end. There are lots of challenges along the supply chain, the value chain that we needed to solve at the same time.

00:25:17 Speaker_00
Amazing. I kind of listened to you both and I really am getting the sense, you know, we talk about kind of pioneers and trailblazers.

00:25:24 Speaker_00
It really does sound to me like, you know, almost every step that you're taking is so new and like you're changing and driving the industry, which I think is, you know, amazing and, you know, huge congratulations.

00:25:36 Speaker_00
Denise, you mentioned something there, which I'm assuming our listeners would love to know more about.

00:25:43 Speaker_00
You said trying to make tuna which wasn't green and so I'm interested how did you both ensure that the taste and texture of your products, which of course you know as we know for consumers is so important, how do you make sure that closely resembles traditional seafood?

00:26:01 Speaker_02
So for us I mean the most important thing was actually the taste. We said, you know, because there were also like terrible alternatives on the market already, and they still are. I think I've tried some of those, yeah.

00:26:15 Speaker_02
And I honestly, I'm always surprised who puts those products on shelves, but they might, like a lot of these products actually look like canned tuna, but they have nothing in common taste-wise.

00:26:27 Speaker_02
So for us, I mean, also out of personal experience, obviously, if something doesn't taste good, I'm not buying it again.

00:26:34 Speaker_02
So first and foremost, we said, OK, we need to create this authentic tuna taste that is not, you know, basically what a lot of these other players are doing.

00:26:43 Speaker_02
They're buying ingredients off the shelf, resulting into their buying it soy textured or wheat textured because it's high in protein and then they're buying

00:26:51 Speaker_02
a specific natural or artificial aroma from one of those huge flavor houses in Europe, and they pour it on top and that's it. But they taste very generic. They have a very strong, not so appealing taste, in my opinion.

00:27:05 Speaker_02
Maybe you know that from some of the meat alternatives. But it's OK, but I would not necessarily buy it again. But if you're paying for a new product, you want this experience and something really tasty.

00:27:17 Speaker_02
So for us, this was tasty for us, almost important. And this is why we spend a lot of time actually working on the seaweed mix that we use for the tuna. But like you said, seaweed is green, seaweed is brown.

00:27:33 Speaker_02
And if you process it, it doesn't necessarily turn out to be a white product in the end. It's still one of our challenges, one of our research challenges, one of the core challenges that we are working on.

00:27:44 Speaker_02
And with the next ingredients that we are developing, actually, we have some exciting results with a clear extract, which we could use as a clean label aroma, only will be declared as a seaweed extract.

00:27:56 Speaker_02
But this is a game changer for us and probably also for some of the industry, other industry players, because this means we can take the product to the next level.

00:28:06 Speaker_02
Right now, our product resembles tuna, but it's still on the grayish side, and that's of course something we want to change in the future.

00:28:14 Speaker_02
Texture-wise, we get really good reviews, but I think the color, which is part of the first sight, part of the first experience, is something we want to change.

00:28:23 Speaker_02
And also if we have new ingredients based on seaweed that are clear in color, it allows us to venture into new areas, you know, into whitefish or maybe at some point even dairy, you know, like there are so many different applications than possible as soon as we crack the color code.

00:28:42 Speaker_02
But as seaweed, like seaweed is very different from land-based plants, like the cell wall structure is completely different. And as I mentioned, there's a lot, very little research done already in the seaweed space.

00:28:55 Speaker_02
This is something we need to solve ourselves.

00:28:57 Speaker_00
Sina, to your products, how are you ensuring that you kind of get that taste and that mouthfeel?

00:29:02 Speaker_03
So I guess we took very different products. So I guess also the requirements are very different because if you compare a tuna, canned tuna to a

00:29:12 Speaker_03
whole cut white fish fillet you have very very different requirements in terms of taste and texture whereas with the tuna you want an oily and you know very deep tuna taste and you know it's very very chewy texture which is soft slightly oily you want something completely different when you're talking about a fresh

00:29:34 Speaker_03
you know, fish fillets. You want something which is completely white. You want something which is flaky. It's soft, it's chewy, but it has a bit more consistency than the tuna. And you also have a taste which is actually surprisingly bland.

00:29:48 Speaker_03
Like, it reminds you slightly of the ocean, but if you get too much fishiness, you think, oh man, it's spoiled. Like, this is not high quality. So it's super interesting to see what changes when you talk about different species of seafood and fish.

00:30:03 Speaker_03
And I think that's also one of the key challenges is to say, if we're tackling the space of seafood and fish, because there's so many different species and so many different flavor and texture profiles, it really matters what you're trying to

00:30:17 Speaker_03
maybe mimic or what texture, what, you know, taste consumers are really looking for. And I think for us, we probably took the hardest testing ground because we came to Korea two years ago.

00:30:29 Speaker_03
And I mean, Korea is one of the highest per capita consumptions of seafood worldwide, like even more than Japan. So these people, they really know their seafood and they're expecting the highest quality. So

00:30:42 Speaker_03
Really, when it came to taste and to texture, we really had to hit the mark. I think what's really interesting is we're growing two things together.

00:30:51 Speaker_03
So similar as plants, if you give them more water or more sunlight, how you perceive a taste and a texture is also completely different. And that's also how you need to imagine us producing our seafood.

00:31:05 Speaker_03
So essentially, you can change small things in how you cultivate and how you grow it, and you will get a completely different result.

00:31:13 Speaker_03
So these past three years have really been constant trial and error to test what works, what doesn't work, what are consumers looking for, what's different in terms of taste and texture, perseverance

00:31:28 Speaker_03
in perception, also in Asian consumers and in European consumers.

00:31:33 Speaker_03
And I think what's really been key is working very closely together with our customers and doing many, many different tests to see, OK, do we really understand what they're looking for?

00:31:44 Speaker_03
What's interesting here is actually also in Korea, we had a product which was very fishy. And once we completely reduced the fish note and the fish flavor, people were saying, oh, well, it's actually softer and it doesn't smell as strong as fish.

00:31:59 Speaker_03
But actually, I really like it. This is something I really hate about fish. And now with your product, I don't have it at all. So I can cook this at home. I don't have any problems with it. which is something which actually you don't think about.

00:32:11 Speaker_03
So maybe we're not trying to mimic seafood, we're trying to create new types of seafood. And also, what's even more important is, okay, you can hit the taste and the texture. But in Korea, it was like, well, but still, why should I buy it?

00:32:24 Speaker_03
You know, like, there's no extra benefit in it for me. And then if you tell them, well, it's actually, you know, it has immune boosting properties or it's extremely slimming because it has less calorie and fats than fish.

00:32:34 Speaker_03
And, you know, it has omega-3, so it's good for your memory. It's maybe good for your skin or your hair because of the vitamins inside. They say, wow, OK, then this is something even better than fish.

00:32:45 Speaker_03
But on top, what was super interesting, we just did an ex vivo study, so a study done by a research institute that analyzed our product versus a commercially bought product.

00:32:55 Speaker_03
And what you could see was actually that our product had an immune boosting effect, which was stronger than the one that was commercially available.

00:33:03 Speaker_03
So if you just start to think about what could this mean, it could mean that at some point maybe food becomes our medicine.

00:33:11 Speaker_03
Like once we can nourish ourselves with food that are so highly nutritious that we don't need medicine anymore, like this can really be the future.

00:33:20 Speaker_03
And I think when we're talking about what our technology can ultimately do, we're really trying to emphasize how can we capture that nutrition and, you know, those nutrients and really enhancing them

00:33:32 Speaker_03
to really boost not only our health, but also, you know, our beauty and our appearance. So I think that's kind of the direction we're going into. And I think it's a very interesting one as well.

00:33:45 Speaker_00
Sounds it. Yeah. I mean, I can you're obviously tailoring it to to consumer needs and trends, which, again, I'd like I'd like to talk about as well in a second.

00:33:54 Speaker_00
And Denise, in terms of so we've heard about the kind of health benefits and well-being benefits. What about the environmental benefits of your products?

00:34:02 Speaker_02
Yeah, I need to add one thing to Sina's comment, because I 100% agree with Sina on this. I think our food needs to become our medicine, but it's impossible to achieve this with the existing methods and the existing agricultural practices.

00:34:25 Speaker_02
If we look at our food system, we created a huge mess. Soil is depleted. The food that we grow is not as nutritious anymore. It's super affected in general by droughts, by heat. We have a huge food insecurity if we look at the current food system.

00:34:44 Speaker_02
And that's why I love so much what Sina is doing, because she's also, like us, she's developing new ingredients. And we need these new ingredients for our food to become medicine.

00:34:56 Speaker_02
I mean we we do this obviously to to feed ourselves and the human population but we can't do it anymore at the expenses of our planet and for us seaweed was the first choice because it also creates systemic change.

00:35:13 Speaker_02
Everywhere where you grow seaweed, there are studies that biodiversity is increased. Everywhere where you grow seaweed, the acidification of the ocean is stopped because the pH level is more regulated within seaweed forests.

00:35:29 Speaker_02
In general, obviously seaweed stores CO2 too, but that's not our focus because we harvest it and use it in our products. But what I really like about the seaweed cultivation part is it also creates an alternative income for fishing communities.

00:35:44 Speaker_02
And if we don't give this alternative income where they long term can make a living, nothing is going to change. So we need to bring along all these players in the supply chain

00:35:55 Speaker_02
to really actually have the benefits that seaweed cultivation and, you know, reforesting our oceans could have. And there are multiple ways how we track the positive impact that we have with our product and the seaweed that we use.

00:36:10 Speaker_02
A very basic is fish spared. For every can of tuna, we can say how much tuna is spared. It's bycatch.

00:36:19 Speaker_02
There are numbers that with every kilo of fish that gets caught, there's actually more than a kilo of bycatch caught, which then dies, further destroying our ecosystem. I mentioned the acidification of the ocean, the dead zones, etc.

00:36:36 Speaker_02
But in order to counter this, we need humans to eat those foods. And this is where the nutritious aspect that Sina mentioned comes into play. As sad as it is, most people don't buy plant-based canned tuna because they want to save the tuna.

00:36:55 Speaker_02
It's too far away from their daily lives, usually. They've never seen a real tuna in their life. But what consumers know is tuna accumulates a lot of heavy metals because it swims in the oceans for a while, and consumers don't want that.

00:37:12 Speaker_02
They are worried about heavy use of antibiotics in salmon farming or shrimp farming. You know, they're worried about microplastics. So they're actively looking for alternatives to that.

00:37:24 Speaker_02
And then obviously they require that the products are even better than the original and delivering even more and consistent nutrients.

00:37:33 Speaker_00
Again, so you've raised a really interesting point there. So I mean, I've listened to both of you and I always, you know, there's so many benefits here. And I'm always asking myself the question, well, why, why have these products not kind of emerged?

00:37:45 Speaker_00
And why are consumers not embracing them more? And Dhaniji, You started to say you've got to go above and beyond, but how do you educate consumers and restaurants?

00:37:57 Speaker_00
I know that you're selling into the hospitality industry as well, so how do you go about educating them on these benefits so that they really embrace them rather than this just being a fringe thing that will never scale up?

00:38:13 Speaker_00
I'm interested to kind of hear both of your thoughts about how you are both doing this. So Denise, maybe I stay with you and then Encino, I'd like to hear from you.

00:38:22 Speaker_02
It sounds weird, but I don't think education in this case will really help us short term because education really is a very long process.

00:38:33 Speaker_02
And of course I believe in education and everyone needs more education, but in this case, now it would take too long. It would take too long for everyone to educate on the amazing ingredients Sina and Corallo was using about the seaweed.

00:38:48 Speaker_02
What I believe is the biggest leverage is price and availability. So making products affordable, not pricing them at a premium and really getting access to it.

00:38:59 Speaker_02
I mean, if we are only selling products in like very niche artisan food stores, you know, the mainstream is not going to go there and they're not going to try it. And I think

00:39:11 Speaker_02
you know, just getting out there, getting the product in front of people, making them taste, because tasting is believing, you know, if they taste it, it's like this huge light bulb going above their head, oh, wow, there is actually an alternative.

00:39:24 Speaker_02
So for me, tasting is the biggest way or the best way to educate people, because that's then when they get really curious.

00:39:32 Speaker_00
Tasting is believing, right? Okay, so affordability, accessibility and getting consumers to actually taste the product, that totally makes sense.

00:39:41 Speaker_00
And Sina, you've taken the bold move to go to South Korea where your customers have very exacting standards, shall we say, when it comes to seafood.

00:39:49 Speaker_00
So how are you making sure that the products that you're delivering are hitting all of those notes for your customers?

00:39:59 Speaker_03
It was also a learning process for us because here nobody cares about the seafood industry, really. It's all about taste, texture. But something which people really have as a societal pressure is their appearance and also their health and well-being.

00:40:18 Speaker_03
what we saw was, okay, there's actually not really an opportunity for us to market this as alternative seafood, because that's just simply not an attractive proposition for our consumers here.

00:40:27 Speaker_03
But really seeing the pain point to say, hey, you have a product where, you know, you don't have to go through the pain of dieting, of eating salads, of eating nasty shakes and this kind of supplements and this kind of stuff, but you can eat something which is slimming, good for your health and your beauty, and it tastes good.

00:40:47 Speaker_03
And suddenly all the light bulbs went up for us and we said, okay, this is really it for us. Like in Korea, we're not alternative seafood, we're not really new fish, but we're wellness food.

00:40:58 Speaker_03
And I think that was a pivotal move to us to say, what are customers actually struggling with and how can we emphasize that our product

00:41:08 Speaker_03
is facilitating them to something which is solving their pain point, which is helping them with their struggle, which is making life easier and more enjoyable.

00:41:19 Speaker_03
And the example I like to draw here, which is maybe a little bit controversial, but which is the tobacco industry. You had a huge increase in eos and vapes all of a sudden, and they never marketed it as, you know, an alternative really to smoking.

00:41:34 Speaker_03
They didn't say, oh, we're alternative cigarettes. But they said, oh, we're elevating the experience by, you know, making you not taste or smell like cigarettes. And it was a completely different experience and a new product proposition.

00:41:50 Speaker_03
So I think, yeah, that's kind of the example I like to draw, even though it's a bad industry in itself.

00:41:56 Speaker_00
No, I think it's a great example and I think you're absolutely right. And it's a really interesting insight from you both.

00:42:03 Speaker_00
You know, your why push against, you know, what is a very difficult door to open and actually you double down on consumer needs, enhancing the experience and just making it easy and better for consumers. And then, yeah, it's an easy sell then, right?

00:42:20 Speaker_00
So I think that's a really important takeaway for the show. We're coming to the end of the show and it would be remiss of me to finish this conversation without talking about the future.

00:42:31 Speaker_00
So what are your visions for the future of the alternative seafood market and where do you see this heading in the next five years? Denise, what do you think? You spoke about lots of possible new products so I'm fascinated.

00:42:48 Speaker_02
Yeah, we have so many ideas.

00:42:51 Speaker_00
Where do you go?

00:42:53 Speaker_02
I mean, in general, I mean, I already mentioned, you know, my vision is that in 10 years, maybe we'll buy just the pure seaweed. But obviously, until then, that it's a long road until then.

00:43:06 Speaker_02
And I always say we are creating this new ocean economy, you know, this new ocean food economy.

00:43:12 Speaker_02
And both micro and macroalgae from the ocean, you know, there's so much potential and so many ways that you can utilize it and that you can separate the flavors and the nutrients and really use them in different products.

00:43:26 Speaker_02
So like for the alternative seafood market, I still think we've just started. I mean, if you look at the shelves in supermarkets for every like 20 alternative meat or dairy product, there's one alternative fish product.

00:43:41 Speaker_02
So there's massive room to fill the gap. We're just starting out. There was a bit of delay in the growth of the seafood space, but it's the fastest growing out of all, which is exciting.

00:43:52 Speaker_02
But we have some catch up to do because everyone was just jumping on meat and dairy first. So this will get really exciting with products like Corallos and Auer to finally bring products onto shelves that are both tasty but bring added value.

00:44:09 Speaker_02
And then beyond that, I want to see our seaweed ingredients, not just in the alternative seafood space.

00:44:15 Speaker_02
But in the alternative meat space and alternative dairy space, in the blended product space, which is a huge topic at the moment, you know, how do you transition consumers away from meat eating?

00:44:27 Speaker_02
And maybe we can reduce it by replacing parts of sausages and meat blends to vegetables. But obviously, if we then use the same resources, why not use seaweed? So this is a really interesting topic that we are working on.

00:44:40 Speaker_02
And because seaweed is a natural flavor enhancer, it includes a lot of umami, it's perfect for blended meat products, for example, like these hybrids.

00:44:49 Speaker_02
So we are working in all sorts of directions through seaweed, but the alternative seafood space itself is just starting out.

00:44:58 Speaker_00
Amazing. What an exciting place to be in. And Sina, what's your vision for the future, you know, five plus years out?

00:45:06 Speaker_03
If you hear my ultimate vision, it might sound very contradicting, but I think for me, ultimately, the goal is to see artisanal fishers and their families have a future.

00:45:17 Speaker_03
I think for me, that's ultimately the goal, because these are the people right now who are struggling the most.

00:45:24 Speaker_03
in our existing system, where industrial fishing is depleting the resources they have, the livelihoods they're struggling with, their nutrition.

00:45:35 Speaker_03
It's not going to be countries or regions like North America or Europe, which will have problems with seafood or with seafood supply.

00:45:44 Speaker_03
It's going to be Latin America, it's going to be Africa, it's going to be Southeast Asia, which really feel the burden of a depleting seafood supply.

00:45:54 Speaker_03
So I think if we can diverge some of that pressure onto the system by having an impact which is in volume, which is really in distribution volume, that we can cover a certain amount of the seafood industry and therefore allow supplies as in resources to regenerate in the oceans, this for me would be the ultimate dream.

00:46:18 Speaker_03
So I think we're trying to partner very quickly with different companies, large players as well, to be able to bring that volume and bring that positive impact so we can really see a sustainable seafood industry throughout all channels.

00:46:34 Speaker_00
inspiring stuff and you know I really I really hope that both of these these visions come true and you know for I know that you're both members of the EIT food community and I'm so delighted that you are and if this is such an amazing space which it obviously is and it's got a massive growth potential what advice would you give to any innovators or entrepreneurs out there who want to get into the space you know where do you where do you start

00:47:00 Speaker_03
I would say be brave enough to do the unconventional and in that sense be flexible enough to get rid of all your previous beliefs and thoughts and ideas because I would say what really matters is in the end what the consumer wants and what the consumer says.

00:47:19 Speaker_03
And if you're more of a sponge to absorb all of that information and if you can take failures, not as failures, but as learnings, that's where true innovation comes about.

00:47:29 Speaker_03
So I would say embrace all the failures and learnings you can, keep innovating and keep listening to your customers and consumers because ultimately, yeah, they're going to be your greatest judge.

00:47:42 Speaker_00
Incredible advice. Thank you very much. And Denise, what advice would you give?

00:47:48 Speaker_02
I would say it's about three key words. One is patience. I mentioned it before and I can't stress it enough. Change takes time, specifically in the food industry. Second is partners. Really try to find the right partners early on.

00:48:05 Speaker_02
The partners who are already convinced of the solution. There's no point in trying to convince anyone who still doesn't believe in the space.

00:48:13 Speaker_02
I mean, we were super lucky to have a lot of really strong partners along the way, a launch partner like Aldi, you know, who introduced us to a mainstream audience.

00:48:21 Speaker_02
Currently, strong partners such as Rewe, German train service, Pizza Hut, you know, like, look for the partners who have ingrained change and sustainability goals in the company and really want to change something.

00:48:35 Speaker_02
And then the third keyword for me is added value. Don't just go out to do something. Don't just go out and use the same old ingredients and ways the incumbents did.

00:48:46 Speaker_02
But really think about a new way of how you can create added value, not just to the consumers and not just to the planet, but also all these players in between. How can you take them along? How can you help them achieve their goals?

00:49:00 Speaker_02
Because if you help them achieve their goals, you know, they will use your products. And this is basically the ultimate way to achieve our own goals.

00:49:08 Speaker_00
Got it. So patience, partners and added value. Love that. Thank you. I have to ask you just a final question.

00:49:15 Speaker_00
I kind of get a sense where this is probably going, but do you think from where you're sitting right now, do you think we can save our oceans and reverse the environmental damage that's been done? Because obviously that has been a lot of damage.

00:49:29 Speaker_00
All of the great work that you're doing is obviously going to have an impact. But do you think it's going to be enough? Sina, what do you think?

00:49:40 Speaker_03
Wow, this one hits emotionally for me, I would say. I would hope so, yes. I think we're at a point in time where we can still make a change. And I think it's not late enough. It's never too late. I don't want to sound detrimental.

00:49:55 Speaker_03
But I think we need to come up with more supply sources, more solutions, more innovations to really be able to diverge some of the pressure that right now is on the seafood industry.

00:50:06 Speaker_03
Because we just saw it recently, even with, let's say, a report coming out saying this Chinese company vessel uses slave labor to catch squids.

00:50:18 Speaker_03
The Chinese court said, OK, we understand, but we cannot stop giving it a subsidy because we simply need shrimp and squid like we cannot do without it, like our food security is at stake here. So, yeah, sorry about that.

00:50:32 Speaker_03
We'll try to change, but we need that seafood supply. So I think for me, this was a key wow moment to say, OK, if we really want to change something, we need to change the whole system.

00:50:44 Speaker_03
And it can't just be from us, but it has to come from, you know, the large industry, whether that's wildcatch, aquaculture, consumers, distributors, the whole supply chain really needs to change.

00:50:55 Speaker_03
And we need to come together in the belief that it's in our best interest to do so from all sides.

00:51:01 Speaker_03
So if that means collaborating with a traditional industry, I'm happy to do so and I think it really needs collaboration and strength and we need to really want this change because in the end it's a good change.

00:51:14 Speaker_03
I'm optimistic, but I think we need to pull together if we really want to pull it off, I guess.

00:51:21 Speaker_00
I love your optimism. And of course, that's exactly what we're trying to do with the tea food community. It is that full system transformation. So thank you. And Denise, are you as optimistic as Sina?

00:51:34 Speaker_02
It's a clear yes from my side. Why is it a clear yes from my side? First of all, I think there are already a ton of amazing solutions out there on all different levels, not just in the food space, but there's so many amazing solutions out there.

00:51:50 Speaker_02
Just the missing link is funding. There's a huge funding gap for all the ocean innovation, for all the ocean health topics.

00:51:58 Speaker_02
But people have realized the importance of the ocean and it's finally getting more attention and people are starting to pour money into it, even though it's not necessarily the favorite of investors because all these climate solutions, they don't deliver fast returns like a software company or something.

00:52:17 Speaker_02
it gets the attention so and funding will come um and uh yeah strong belief on that side and um second i mean my name dennis in turkish means to see so obviously you know it's also very emotional topic for me um and

00:52:35 Speaker_02
If I don't believe that I can create a difference with what I do, I mean, how on earth is someone else supposed to believe in this?

00:52:43 Speaker_02
So I strongly believe that we are going to make a difference, that Corallo is going to make a difference and that we really will be able to reverse it.

00:52:52 Speaker_02
But we need to be optimistic on this, because if we don't believe it, then no one else will believe in us.

00:52:57 Speaker_00
Got it. Yes. Thank you, Denise. And thank you both for your optimism and for your wisdom in this space. And it's been a fascinating, fascinating discussion. And I know that our listeners are going to get loads from this.

00:53:09 Speaker_00
So thank you both for being on the show. Before we kind of wrap up, finally, you know, I have to ask, you know, so where can people find out more about who you are and what you do? And I guess specifically where you can actually buy your products.

00:53:22 Speaker_00
So, Denise, let's finish with you. Where can people go to find out more about you?

00:53:28 Speaker_02
To learn more about us and Better Fish, obviously website betterfish.co. We share a lot of insights on LinkedIn, both on my personal profile, but also on the company profile.

00:53:39 Speaker_02
We are very actively sharing insights on how we work, how we work with partners, learnings from conferences. So definitely LinkedIn is the best way to stay up to date. Also, heads up, we'll be launching an exciting crowd lending campaign.

00:53:56 Speaker_02
later this year, so it might be an interesting opportunity for people to be part of our journey.

00:54:02 Speaker_02
And if you want to get a taste, within the German-speaking area, it's Coop in Switzerland, it's Billa in Austria, it's River, Hit, Osman in Germany, but also we have our own little online shop where you can buy really delicious tasting bundles.

00:54:18 Speaker_00
Amazing. Thank you very much. Definitely going to be looking out for the crowdfunding opportunity. Everybody take note. And Sina, what about yourself? Where can people go to find out more about you and Corallo and all the amazing things you do?

00:54:32 Speaker_03
Yeah, so we're also on all the socials. So you can find us corallo.newfish on Instagram and we're also on YouTube now starting out and starting also on TikTok. So we'll be around and sharing some interesting insights also on LinkedIn.

00:54:48 Speaker_03
If you also are interested about the Asian food market and Korea in specific, being this cross-national team, You know, we have quite a few insights to share there as well. And right now you can find us in restaurants in Korea.

00:55:05 Speaker_03
We just also applied for Novel Foods, so please EU, be very fast and you can find it in the EU and US, hopefully then very soon. But yeah, if you're ever in Asia, have a taste.

00:55:19 Speaker_03
And yeah, until then, you know, feel free to follow us on the socials where we share everything about new fish and the wellness food industry, enriching your beauty and health. So yeah, feel free to check us out.

00:55:31 Speaker_00
Thank you very much, Sina. And thank you both, Sina and Denise, for your time today. It's been amazing. So huge congratulations for everything that you've achieved and can't wait to hear more about what's coming next soon. So thank you both.

00:55:46 Speaker_03
Thank you so much.

00:55:48 Speaker_00
Great stuff. So thank you all for listening in. This has been the Food Fight podcast. If you'd like to find out more, head over to the EIT Food website at www.eitfood.eu.

00:55:58 Speaker_00
Also, please join the conversation by the hashtag EIT Food Fight on our X channel at EIT Food. And of course, if you haven't already, please hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. See you next time.