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Episode: Ether 6-11 Part 1 • Dr. BJ Allen • November 18-24 • Come Follow Me

Author: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Duration: 01:04:33

Episode Shownotes

What lessons are we to learn from the Jaredite journey? Dr. B.J. Allen examines the challenges the Jaredites face as they travel to the Promised Land and explores the compensatory nature of the Atonement of Jesus.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM47ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM47FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM47DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM47PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM47ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/HuJDScx0P88ALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM

QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 Part I - Dr. BJ Allen04:30 Bio7:00 Come, Follow Me Manual Ether 6-1108:02 The beauty of life when God is in it.13:32 Weakness is an opportunity to come to Christ16:52 Faith journeys20:04 Light for others24:52 Lens of hope and faith on the water29:43 Trial, Blessing, or Both? by Hank Smith34:01 Prison temple and Jesus compensates for our weakness38:58 Noah’s Ark and the Jaredite barges42:45 Spoiler Alert: Captivity Cometh43:50 Ether 7-Testament to Joseph being a prophet49:05 Ether 7-The Pride Cycle50:01 President Nelson on division 56:49 Samuel the Lamanite and polarization of the people57:51 Who do you listen to?58:49 More examples of why the Jaredites fell01:05:36 End of Part I - Dr. BJ AllenThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Summary

In this episode of the followHIM podcast, hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway interview Dr. B.J. Allen to explore Ether chapters 6-11. They discuss the Jaredite journey to the Promised Land, emphasizing the role of prophets, the compensatory nature of the Atonement, and the importance of faith. Key themes include recognizing weaknesses as opportunities for growth, maintaining a hopeful perspective during trials, and understanding the cyclical nature of pride as seen in the Jaredite narrative. The conversation encourages listeners to reflect on their influence and the societal polarization exemplified by the Jaredites’ experiences.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Ether 6-11 Part 1 • Dr. BJ Allen • November 18-24 • Come Follow Me) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:03 Speaker_03
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name's Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my co-host, John, by the way. And I describe us as, John, tight, lichen to a dish. John, as the kids would say, you and I are tight. Tight.

00:00:21 Speaker_03
We are looking at the Book of Ether again, as we did last week. When you think of Ether 6, this middle chunk, because you have the brother of Jared in the beginning, you have Ether himself at the end.

00:00:33 Speaker_03
But in this middle area, it gets a little blurry for a lot of Latter-day Saints. So what are you thinking of?

00:00:40 Speaker_02
Yeah, like when we start with Ether 6, we've got this journey, and there's so many journeys throughout these awesome stories in the scriptures, in modern stories, like the pioneers and what they learn.

00:00:51 Speaker_02
But boy, you're right, as soon as they get there, oh boy, do they start having some ups and downs. It goes back and forth, and it's really fun to see that and then try to draw from it. What do I get from it? That's what I'm looking forward to today.

00:01:06 Speaker_03
John, I can see why King Mosiah, when he translated this, thought, we need to get rid of kings. We need to change away from kings because you're right. Things go up and down. John, we have a special guest with us as we do every week. This is Dr. B.J.

00:01:21 Speaker_03
Allen. B.J., as you've looked at these chapters, what are you seeing? Where are we going to go?

00:01:27 Speaker_00
In this week's Come Follow Me, we get a real inside scoop into the rise and fall of the Jaredite nation. There's so much here. So this is about two, three thousand years of history we get in the chapters that we're going to follow.

00:01:42 Speaker_00
I think it's important that we remember Moroni is not giving a historical account here. It's a spiritual story. He picks and chooses some critical themes. The first one is the critical role of prophets.

00:01:56 Speaker_00
And this is a theme throughout the whole Book of Mormon, but especially Ether. We can actually see why this is such an important theme by going to the end of the story. Let's go to Ether 11 and let's go to verse 13. It says, And it came to pass,

00:02:14 Speaker_00
that the people hardened their hearts and would not hearken unto their words. And the prophets mourned and withdrew from among the people. The people get so wicked and they stop listening. So the prophets eventually leave.

00:02:29 Speaker_00
And then we get this story of apostasy in verse 21 and 22. And the Lord God would send or bring forth another people to possess the land by which his power after the manor by which he brought their fathers.

00:02:44 Speaker_00
And they did reject all the words of the prophets because of their secret society and wicked abominations." I don't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't read it yet, but the Jaredite nation, it doesn't work out well. They all get wiped out.

00:02:56 Speaker_00
And here's why, because they reject the prophets. The second big theme we're going to talk about is how beautiful life can be when God is in it.

00:03:05 Speaker_00
And God blesses us when we follow him, especially as we talk about the Brother Jared story, how Christ enables and allows mortals to do wonderful things when we invite Christ into our life.

00:03:18 Speaker_00
Christ compensates for our weaknesses and difficulties, even in difficult times. Along with that, despite the difficulties that we go through in wicked times, we can still live Christ-centered life.

00:03:31 Speaker_00
So, we're going to talk about who some of those people are. And then on the flip side, we're going to talk about how miserable life is when you try and live a life without God.

00:03:41 Speaker_00
And the Jaredites are a great example of some of the terrible things that happens to you. When you try and live a life of greed and lust and desire for power, it leads away and makes us miserable.

00:03:55 Speaker_03
Wickedness never was happiness. I love it. I'm excited for this BJ. I've noticed that Moroni as an author is, I think, attempting to do what his father did, which is abridge a history and draw out principles. But you can tell they're different.

00:04:14 Speaker_03
You can tell these are two different people. So I'm excited to watch how Moroni does this and maybe think of how did Mormon do it and how does Moroni do it differently? John, BJ is new to our show. So I think he needs a John, by the way, introduction.

00:04:30 Speaker_02
Yep, hotly printed off my laser printer. BJ Allen, he's an associate professor of marketing at Brigham Young University. He received a bachelor's degree from BYU and a PhD in business administration from the University of Texas, San Antonio.

00:04:46 Speaker_02
And his research areas are in marketing strategy, professional selling, and New Product Innovation. He's the author of two textbooks and gives sales and marketing trainings to corporations.

00:04:57 Speaker_02
I wanted people to know he's the author of a new book called The Compensating Power of Christ. I've got mine right here, which is about how the Savior makes right the unfairness of life and compensates for our personal weaknesses. He lives in Provo.

00:05:13 Speaker_02
He and his wife Angie have six children. He's a sports enthusiast. Most weekends, you'll find him driving his family around in his awesome minivan. I remember those days. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Alan. Welcome.

00:05:28 Speaker_00
Yes, thank you. I'm super excited to be here. I'm actually really excited to talk about these chapters in Ether because I have a fun family connection, if I can share for a second, to these chapters.

00:05:38 Speaker_00
There's a man in early church history, his name's Reynolds Cahoon. Reynolds is actually my fifth great-grandpa.

00:05:46 Speaker_00
Those who may not be familiar, Reynolds is one of Joseph's earliest friends during the Restoration, and he's a mission companion to Samuel Smith, and he gave Joseph Smith some paper to finish the translation of the Book of Mormon.

00:05:59 Speaker_00
He had a son, so Reynolds had a son, and he asked Joseph to come bless and name the baby. and Joseph named the baby Mahonri Moriankomer. This is what it says in church history.

00:06:12 Speaker_00
When he, being Joseph, had finished the blessing, he laid the child on the bed, and turning to Elder Cahoon, said, The name which I have given your son is the name of the brother of Jared. The Lord has just shown it to me.

00:06:24 Speaker_00
We have a Mahonri Moriankomer Cahoon in the family. I grew up all the time learning about him in my family history, so it's really fun to be talking about the real Mahonri Moriankomer today. That's fantastic.

00:06:37 Speaker_02
I don't know why, but nobody ever asked him to give a blessing again. I'm just kidding. I don't really know if that's true. I don't think it is. His name is what? Could you spell that out for me?

00:06:47 Speaker_03
There was another couple there and they turned around and walked out with their baby.

00:06:52 Speaker_02
Oh, thanks.

00:06:54 Speaker_03
We'll go somewhere else.

00:06:56 Speaker_02
Hey Hiram, do you want to bless this? Yeah. That's funny.

00:07:01 Speaker_03
BJ, I am going to read from the Come Follow Me manual, and then this is John and I's favorite part. We turn the reins over to you and we get to learn.

00:07:10 Speaker_03
It says hundreds of years after the Jaredites were destroyed, the Nephites discovered the ruins of an ancient civilization.

00:07:15 Speaker_03
Among these ruins was a mysterious record, plates of pure gold that were filled with engravings, and the Nephites were desirous beyond measure to read it. Today, you have an abridgment of this record, and it's called the Book of Ether.

00:07:27 Speaker_03
When the Nephites read it, they were filled with sorrow to learn of the tragic fall of the Jaredites. Nevertheless, it gave them much knowledge in which they did rejoice. This is all from Book of Mosiah. You too may find sorrowful moments in this book.

00:07:41 Speaker_03
But you can also rejoice in this gift of knowledge. As Moroni wrote, Man, these summaries are powerful. So B.J., with that, John and I are ready to learn.

00:08:02 Speaker_00
All right, let's give the viewer some background and some context to what's happened before this chapter. In chapter 6, we're coming back to the Brother Jared story after the couple of chapter breaks where Moroni inserts his teachings.

00:08:17 Speaker_00
We'll actually see that this is a theme in both Moroni and Mormon's writings where they stop writing for a little bit and they give us a little bit of an insertion of gospel principles.

00:08:28 Speaker_00
And I like to think that those principles were sparked by something that they wrote in that story. With that, when I read the Book of Mormon chapters, I like to have a lens by which I'm trying to interpret the story.

00:08:45 Speaker_00
And one of the lenses I love is to ask myself, what gospel subjects did Mormon or Moroni teach after this story? What are some maybe things that sparked their interest or gospel principles that they thought about?

00:08:59 Speaker_00
In other words, along with asking, what can I get out of it? I like asking, what did Moroni get out of it?

00:09:05 Speaker_03
That's great. It's those thus we see moments. Maybe there's more than that because they don't just say thus we see. I like what you're saying here that when we pause and Moroni says, can I say something? It's probably from what he just read.

00:09:18 Speaker_00
Yeah, exactly. What gospel principles did Moroni learn from the story? For example, Ether 4 and 5, we get an insertion from Moroni about the coming of Christ, faith, repentance, the three witnesses, the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

00:09:35 Speaker_00
But then we would read Ether 1 through 3 without lens. What we're going to do, at least here at the beginning of Ether, we're going to read the beginning of Ether and then we'll continue on Ether 6 through 11.

00:09:48 Speaker_00
We're going to look at it through the lens of what Moroni talks about in Ether 12.

00:09:52 Speaker_00
Ether 12 is Moroni's doctrinal commentary where we learn about faith and hope and charity and then we get the beautiful verse in Ether 12.27 about how His grace is sufficient for our weakness.

00:10:06 Speaker_00
Let's keep that lens in mind, faith, hope, charity, and how His grace is sufficient. Let's start here in Ether 6. We're going to go verses 2 through 3.

00:10:17 Speaker_00
And it came to pass, after the Lord had prepared the stones which the brother of Jared had carried up into the mount, The brother of Jared came down out of the mount, and he put the stones into the vessels, which were prepared, one each end thereof.

00:10:32 Speaker_00
And behold, they did give light unto the vessels. And thus the Lord caused stones to shine in darkness, to give light unto men, women, and children, that they might not cross the great waters in darkness.

00:10:46 Speaker_00
Right off the bat here in Ether 6, we have this beautiful illustration of Christ's power. To me, this is such a salient example of what Moroni teaches in Ether 12.27, which reads, My grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me.

00:11:04 Speaker_00
For if they humble themselves before me and have faith in me, then will I make weak things strong unto them. this story, we get the brother Jared, he's trying to figure out how he's going to fill these boats with light.

00:11:19 Speaker_00
Christ compensates for the weaknesses of the brother Jared and makes his efforts sufficient. It's the brother of Jared's idea, but God does all the work. God's the one that touches the stones. He's the one that makes them shine.

00:11:33 Speaker_00
The brother Jared did the best he could. But he's weak, just like all of us. We're not sufficient on our own. And this is even the way that the brother of Jared approaches the situation in Ether 3, right?

00:11:47 Speaker_00
He says, hey, don't be angry with your servant because of my weaknesses. This is the best I could do. Can you touch these stones and can you make them light? Here's my idea. Please light it up. Yes, exactly. Here's my idea. This is the best I could do.

00:12:03 Speaker_00
Will you please make my efforts sufficient? This is of the very core of what the atonement is meant to do. It's almost as if Moroni is trying to point this out in verse 3 because he says, the Lord caused the stones to shine in darkness.

00:12:19 Speaker_00
Like it wasn't the brother of Jared. It wasn't anyone else, it was the Lord. The brother of Jared comes to the Lord with his weaknesses, but Christ is the one who makes his efforts sufficient.

00:12:31 Speaker_00
It's such a beautiful example of the way that Christ can compensate us in our life. I think it's worth pointing out here in the story that at least we never see a point in which God's mad at the brother of Jared for not knowing how to give light.

00:12:45 Speaker_00
He doesn't say, really, this is the best you could do? In a few thousand years, they're actually going to vent electricity. This really isn't that hard. Jesus is not a reluctant Messiah here.

00:12:57 Speaker_00
He's not looking for ways to be angry at the brother of Jared. He's not looking to say, Oh, really? This isn't really that great of idea. I'm going to do most of the work. He understands the brother of Jared is doing the best that he can.

00:13:12 Speaker_00
There's been this quote from Richard G. Scott that I've always loved where he said, The Lord sees weaknesses different than he does rebellion, whereas the Lord warns that unrepentant rebellion will bring punishment.

00:13:24 Speaker_00
When the Lord speaks of weakness, it is always with mercy. our weakness has become an opportunity to use the grace of Christ.

00:13:36 Speaker_00
I love the similarity between Ether 1227 and in 2 Corinthians, where Paul says, speaking of Christ, my grace is sufficient for thee, my strength is made perfect in weakness.

00:13:48 Speaker_00
For me, this used to be a really hard principle to understand because me personally, I used to struggle with self-doubt. I used to feel like my own weaknesses made me unfit for God's grace.

00:13:58 Speaker_00
Maybe if I reached some level of goodness, then God can come into my life. And this principle has been a lot easier for me to adopt as I've had kids. I think of the C.S. Lewis quote that God is easy to please but hard to satisfy. I love my kids.

00:14:16 Speaker_00
They have a long ways to go to reach to their potential, but I appreciate all that they do. And I appreciate all that they are. I understand that sometimes their efforts aren't what I'd want them to be, but they're doing their best.

00:14:31 Speaker_00
He's always compensating us to make our efforts sufficient for the miracles that we seek now. I think that's such a cool story to start off with in light of that lens of, well, what does Moroni pull from the story and what does he teach after?

00:14:44 Speaker_03
That's fantastic. John, help me out here. Joseph Smith said he can't properly worship God until you know who he is.

00:14:52 Speaker_02
What kind of being he is. Yeah.

00:14:54 Speaker_03
And we get a glimpse of that in the story of the brother of Jared that, like BJ said, he's kind. He's not looking for ways to hurt me. He's looking for ways to help me.

00:15:05 Speaker_02
We need that reminder constantly. I love that the first vision verified there is a God, but that was just the beginning. What kind of being is he?

00:15:16 Speaker_02
Oh, then these things start to come out, and we have to be reminded of it because sometimes, like you said, BJ, maybe he's mad at me because of my weakness. I just loved Elder Kieron's talk about the motorcycle cop that was turning people away.

00:15:31 Speaker_02
And now he said, God's plan is not a plan to keep you out. It's a plan to bring you home. One more reminder. What is God really like? Is he delighting to punish and turn us away? Of course not.

00:15:43 Speaker_02
When I see those, I think, yeah, we need that reminder over and over. It's easy to get the wrong idea about what kind of being God is. And the more we have a right idea, like you said, Hank, the more faith and hope we can have in him.

00:15:58 Speaker_00
And it changes our viewpoint to focus less on ourselves and more on the Savior. We stop worrying about everything we're not and start thinking about what the Savior can make us.

00:16:10 Speaker_00
For example, I once counseled the missionary who was in the field and was trying to decide if he should come home. The root of it was that he didn't feel good enough.

00:16:19 Speaker_00
All of the talk from mission leaders about what a missionary should be just told him that, well, I don't measure up. as I talked to him, it became evident that he was so focused on everything he wasn't, he had lost focus on who Christ was.

00:16:35 Speaker_00
I counseled him that God's not angry with you that you're not a perfect missionary, and stop worrying about everything that you're not, and start focusing on what Christ can make you.

00:16:44 Speaker_00
He called you here, His grace is sufficient for you, and He's going to make you who you need to be as you turn to Him. Similarly, when I counsel people who are going through a faith crisis,

00:16:58 Speaker_00
and they talk about their doubts, it's almost as if they feel like because they have doubts, they don't really believe. Like, oh, I used to believe, but now I'm starting to question this.

00:17:10 Speaker_00
And if there is a God, he must be mad at me because I don't even know if he's there or not. I think it's the opposite. Doubts are not a result of weak faith. They're a result of growing faith. The role of Jesus Christ is to help us to become better.

00:17:26 Speaker_00
It's like the brother of Jared. I mean, if you read the story, he comes to the Lord and he says, look, I know I'm weak. But this is the best I can do. Can you touch these stones and make them glow?" God does that.

00:17:38 Speaker_00
This was a quote from President Nelson a few conferences ago. He said, he, being Jesus, took upon himself your weaknesses. He paid the compensatory price and provided the power for you to move every mountain you will ever face.

00:17:53 Speaker_00
That price has been paid, and Jesus wants to help you. He wants to light your stones. Even if that's the best idea you can come up with, He wants to help you.

00:18:04 Speaker_02
P.J., when you were talking about take your focus off your own weakness and put it on Christ, you know what it reminded me of is we sometimes call it the psalm of Nephi in 2 Nephi 4, Oh wretched man that I am, but then his focus, but I know in whom I have trusted.

00:18:22 Speaker_02
My God has been my support. And he has helped me through the wilderness and he has protected me upon the sea and all of that.

00:18:29 Speaker_02
And you see how when his focus is on Christ, it's like you said, that's where he gained some more faith and confidence, faith. And that is the first principle of the gospel, isn't it? Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

00:18:42 Speaker_03
That's a beautiful example, John. John, we've talked about this before, but I'll say it again. There's a reason that repentance is the second principle of the gospel. And there's a reason the Lord said, I want you to take the sacrament every week.

00:18:54 Speaker_02
every week.

00:18:56 Speaker_03
I can see me saying, I don't think I'll need it every week. I think I'm going to be pretty solid, maybe four times a year. And he turns around with, no, let's do this every week.

00:19:03 Speaker_03
It's a difficult thing to teach, BJ, but the Lord has this expectation that in your growing, you're going to make mistakes. That's why the second principle of the gospel is repentance. And we come back to the sacrament.

00:19:16 Speaker_00
Beautiful. I want to take maybe a slightly different view on this story as regards to Christ compensating us, because I also think it's a beautiful reminder of how Christ helps us offer light to others.

00:19:30 Speaker_00
I want you to imagine being the brother of Jared and trying to figure out how you're going to light everybody's boats. He feels responsible, right? He's the one that's talking to God. He's the one that's making the boats, at least the one in charge.

00:19:47 Speaker_00
When he goes to God in the beginning of Ether and asks him for help, you can tell he's not saying, hey, I don't want to go in darkness. He's saying, we don't like, what can we do?

00:19:59 Speaker_00
I'm responsible for giving them light, but my abilities aren't that great. We can liken this to all of us who are trying to offer light to others, whether that is a parent or a church leader. is like we may not feel like our efforts are enough.

00:20:18 Speaker_00
I can't give these youth, I can't give these ward members, I can't give my children the light that they deserve. And that's okay.

00:20:25 Speaker_00
Here in the story, we learn that Christ compensates the efforts of the brother of Jared to make his efforts enough to help them. When I read the story, it reminded me of the story of feeding the 5,000.

00:20:40 Speaker_00
When Jesus is teaching the people and it comes dark and the apostles say, Hey, we should send these people home. What does Jesus say? He says, well, let's feed them. Now, surely Jesus could have just made food out of nowhere.

00:20:56 Speaker_00
But he asked them, well, what do you have? And they find a boy who has five loaves and two fishes. And then Christ makes that enough.

00:21:05 Speaker_00
When you read the story in the New Testament about that, you can tell the apostles, they're really scared almost of, we don't have enough to give to these people and I can't do that.

00:21:16 Speaker_03
What are they among so many? I think it says. Yes. Compared to what I need, what I have is not going to cover it.

00:21:25 Speaker_00
Don't we feel like that way sometimes as parents or as leaders? I can't give my kids what they deserve. I can't feed them sufficiently.

00:21:35 Speaker_00
And what we learn from these stories is he doesn't just magnify our own abilities, but he compensates by making our efforts sufficient. This is such a salient example of Ether 1227. He's making our weaknesses into strengths.

00:21:49 Speaker_00
I think this is true for parents, but particularly young moms that I talk to who struggle with, how do I teach my kids? How do I do come follow me? Am I giving them what they need?

00:22:00 Speaker_00
I like to read 2 Nephi 3.21, the weakness of their words while I make strong in their faith. You may feel like you're not a great gospel teacher, but the Lord will compensate what you can't do.

00:22:13 Speaker_00
And we can liken this to anyone with a stewardship who's trying to offer light to others like the brother of Jared. As you turn to Christ, he will make your efforts enough.

00:22:22 Speaker_03
That's awesome. He can turn your two loaves and fish into a banquet. Bring what you have, hand it over and say, touch it, touch it, make it work.

00:22:31 Speaker_03
I've done that so many times as a teacher, prepared a lesson and thought, this is awful, light it up, right? Make it work, please touch it, please have something happen.

00:22:40 Speaker_03
And so often it does, it goes somewhere and my students say, that was amazing, you're so, and I think, it wasn't when I got here, it was not that amazing.

00:22:51 Speaker_02
Is it Newell Whitney who's called to be a bishop? I don't think I have a bishop in me. There's that same story. Bring what you have. I will multiply it. A lot of times with callings, that's a good way to look at it.

00:23:03 Speaker_02
Yeah, maybe you don't, but with Christ, you can make it more. I was gonna say, too, this verse could have been written, so, matter of fact, the Lord caused stones to light in the barges, but instead, stones to shine.

00:23:17 Speaker_02
He didn't even have to say in darkness. It makes sense without in darkness. The Lord caused stones to shine to give light. No, but to shine in darkness, and when I think about

00:23:27 Speaker_02
a world that's increasingly dark, but this is going to shine in darkness, and then how beautiful to let us know he's not talking about the ocean trip here, to give light unto men, women, and children, that they might not cross the great waters in darkness.

00:23:43 Speaker_02
I mean, it sounds like this is more than telling us about a journey. There's another level here.

00:23:49 Speaker_00
Absolutely. And actually, we're going to come back to that verse and talk about how it represents the Savior in just a little bit. John, I love what you said.

00:23:57 Speaker_00
It's such a beautiful illustration of trying to get us to understand Christ is here to give light to everybody.

00:24:07 Speaker_03
BJ, I really appreciate that concept. Brother, Jared is not just thinking, I need light. There's some pressure of, I need to provide light. I need to provide some light. I'm the bishop. I'm the gospel doctrine teacher.

00:24:18 Speaker_03
I'm the relief study president, and I'm supposed to offer some light. I need you. I can't do this. I don't have the skill set.

00:24:26 Speaker_00
I'm not a light maker. Exactly. And we learn from the story that Jesus makes your efforts sufficient no matter who you are.

00:24:33 Speaker_00
To take this even a step further, as a parent, so I have six kids, sometimes I wonder, would my kids be better off if Elder Holland was their dad? Probably. He could probably teach him better than I could or President Nelson was their dad.

00:24:49 Speaker_00
I'm the bishop of my ward. Wonder, do they deserve a better bishop? And the answer to all those questions is yes. They deserve someone better than me.

00:24:58 Speaker_00
I'm doing the best I can and I just have to rely on the savior to make my efforts enough because that's what his role is.

00:25:07 Speaker_00
We're going to go to Ether 6, 4 through 6, and again, we're going to read these through the lens of what gospel principles does Moroni pull from the story. When we get the interjection in Ether 12, Moroni teaches about faith and hope.

00:25:22 Speaker_00
Let's look at these verses in terms of faith and hope.

00:25:26 Speaker_00
Then in verse 4, the Jaredites, they go unto the waters, and it says, And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blown upon the face of the waters toward the promised land.

00:25:43 Speaker_00
And thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind,

00:25:47 Speaker_00
And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempest which were caused by the fierceness of the winds.

00:26:00 Speaker_00
It's almost like, thanks a lot. Exactly, right? They commend themselves unto the Lord, and commend means to entrust to someone. So they entrust themselves to the Lord, and what do they get in return? A storm.

00:26:16 Speaker_00
Yes, a big storm, furious winds, tossed, buried, great and terrible tempest. Does that seem like positive, right? I mean, if that was me, I would have been, Lord, I just prayed that you would take care of us and now I'm in this giant storm.

00:26:33 Speaker_00
This doesn't seem like an answer to my prayer. What thanks do I get for commending myself? Exactly. Think about it. It must've been a really hard journey. It was about a year that they were in the water.

00:26:47 Speaker_00
And for a year, you're in this giant barge that's your bedroom, your kitchen, your bathroom. You're in there with all your siblings and they're poking you and pulling your hair. You have no idea where you are. You have no control. You have no cell.

00:27:05 Speaker_00
You have no motor. I have a large family. We travel to the coast of California, go to the beach. It's about 12 hours. And by the time we're there, everyone's about to kill each other.

00:27:16 Speaker_00
And we got air conditioning and we get to stop at Wendy's when we're hungry. This is what the people ask the Lord, is take care of us. And then they get terrible winds. They're buried. And there's eight different boats.

00:27:33 Speaker_00
They don't even know where each other are. They don't know if you're safe. if they're okay. But when we read Moroni later, he talks about it in positive terms and actually says that the people did praise the Lord.

00:27:47 Speaker_00
The reason they were grateful, at least in hindsight, was because they learned that those tumultuous experiences they had were actually what took them to the promised land. Maybe that's how they felt at first.

00:28:03 Speaker_00
Maybe that's only how they felt in hindsight. Christ blessed them. He compensated the difficult things in their life to make them great. I can't help but think of Lehi's teachings in second Nephi that he will consecrate our afflictions for our gain.

00:28:18 Speaker_00
Is they were blessed through the difficult experience. And it was actually those very things that helped them accomplish their goal of taking them to the promised land.

00:28:29 Speaker_02
There's a sister in my ward, in fact, she was a wonderful Relief Society president, Sister Marsh, and she gave this talk once called, Cursed for Thy Sake, showed that what you think was a trial, this furious wind, was actually what was getting you there.

00:28:46 Speaker_02
Sister Ardeth Kapp, I found this quotation, she said, That's what it says in verse 8. Once they understood the purpose for the wind,

00:29:02 Speaker_02
And knowing that their vessels were tight, which they made very clear when they designed them, we read further, they did sing praises unto the Lord, which is what you said, B.J. I like that idea.

00:29:15 Speaker_02
This is scary, this furious wind, but this is taking us where we need to go. And we got to trust that God is taking us where we need to go.

00:29:25 Speaker_03
It's such a powerful principle. All of us could give example after example after example of something that seemed like a trial, seemed to any of us like, this is going to tear me apart.

00:29:35 Speaker_03
And then as we get through it, we look back and think, if it weren't for that thing, this and this and this would not have happened.

00:29:43 Speaker_02
Hank, I've heard you give that talk before. What is it called?

00:29:47 Speaker_03
A trial, blessing, or both.

00:29:50 Speaker_02
trial blessing of both. Now you talked about President Uchtdorf, right?

00:29:54 Speaker_03
I have it right here, John.

00:29:56 Speaker_02
He couldn't learn German. Tell that because I love that story and I love aviation and I love Elder Uchtdorf. So tell the story.

00:30:03 Speaker_03
This is back in 2006, which is hard to say back in 2006. That doesn't seem that long ago to me. He says, allow me to share with you an experience from my boyhood.

00:30:13 Speaker_03
When I was 11 years old, my family had to leave East Germany and begin a new life in West Germany. Until my father could get into his original profession as a government employee, my parents operated a laundry business in our little town. Right, John?

00:30:26 Speaker_03
So they go from this middle-class family, they become refugees. I don't think they can speak the language. He's talked about going from Russian to English and how difficult that was for him. He said, I became the laundry delivery boy.

00:30:38 Speaker_03
To be able to do that effectively, I needed a bicycle to pull the heavy laundry cart. I always dreamed of owning a nice, sleek, shiny, sporty red bicycle, but there was never enough money. What I got was a heavy, ugly, black workhorse of a bicycle.

00:30:55 Speaker_03
I delivered laundry on that bike before and after school for a few years. I like how he says this. He never says he hates the job. He says most of the time, I was not overly excited about the bike, the cart, or my job.

00:31:11 Speaker_03
This is important part of the story. Sometimes the cart seems so heavy and the work so tiring, I thought my lungs would burst. I often had to stop and catch my breath. Nevertheless, I did my part. We desperately needed the income.

00:31:27 Speaker_03
John, you probably know the source on this. He doesn't say it here in this talk, but when he would take that bike around, he would occasionally stop at the airfield, watch the Americans and the British flying their planes in and out.

00:31:39 Speaker_03
This is what he says later. If only I had known back then what I learned many years later. When I was about to be drafted into the military, I decided to volunteer instead and join the Air Force to become a pilot.

00:31:52 Speaker_03
I loved flying and thought being a pilot would be my thing. I think he got into that, John. I'm not quite sure, but I think he, I think it became part of... He's mentioned that. Yeah, he's mentioned that. Just a few times in conference.

00:32:05 Speaker_03
He said to be accepted for the program, I had to pass a number of tests, including a strict physical exam. The doctors were concerned by the results and did some tests.

00:32:14 Speaker_03
They announced, you have scars on your lungs, which were an indication of lung disease you had in your teenage years, but obviously you're fine now. The doctors wondered what kind of treatment had I gone through to heal this disease?

00:32:28 Speaker_03
Until that day of the examination, I had never known that I had any kind of lung disease. Then it became clear to me that it was the bike. My regular exercise in fresh air as a laundry boy had been the factor in healing from this illness.

00:32:45 Speaker_03
without the extra effort of pedaling that bicycle day in and day out, pulling the laundry cart up and down the streets of our town. He says, I never would have gone on to become a pilot, 747 air captain, right? And on and on.

00:32:59 Speaker_03
Then he says this, we don't always know the details of our future. BJ, you've brought this up. Here comes this storm. I commend myself to God. And what do I get? I get this storm.

00:33:10 Speaker_03
Now, later in a different talk, a couple years later, listen to what he says and how we probably learned what he says here back when he had that experience. This is April of 2010.

00:33:21 Speaker_03
Often the deep valleys of our present will be understood only by looking back on them from the mountains of our future experience. Often we can't see the Lord's hand in our lives until long after the trial has passed.

00:33:36 Speaker_03
Often the most difficult times of our lives are essential building blocks that form the foundation of our character and pave the way to future opportunity, understanding, and happiness.

00:33:48 Speaker_03
Thanks for letting me take that time, BJ and John, because this to me is a principle that comes up over and over. Joseph of Egypt, all these terrible things happen, but they take him somewhere.

00:34:00 Speaker_00
When we get some insight into how the Jaredites felt about this, if we go to verse 12, it tells us how they felt when they landed. It says, And they did land upon the shore of the promised land.

00:34:13 Speaker_00
And when they had set their feet upon the shores of the promised land, they bowed themselves down upon the face of the land and did humble themselves before the Lord and did shed tears of joy before the Lord because of the multitude of his tender mercies over them.

00:34:29 Speaker_00
They saw it as a tender mercy. And I love how both of you pointed out different ways in which the terrible tempest of our lives allow us to grow and help us become closer to God.

00:34:42 Speaker_00
This is similar to what Elder Holland called the prison temple, which I think he adopted from B.H. Roberts and Elder Maxwell as well.

00:34:50 Speaker_00
The idea of prison temple comes from the Liberty Jail, when Joseph Smith was in a terrible prison, but had some beautiful revelatory experiences, and we get some of the most beautiful Doctrine and Covenants sections.

00:35:03 Speaker_00
Elder Holland gave a BYU devotional called Lessons from Liberty Jail, and he points out how those terrible experiences can often turn out to be sacred experiences.

00:35:14 Speaker_00
He said, You can have sacred, revelatory, profoundly instructive experience with the Lord in the most miserable experiences of your life, in the worst settings, while enduring the most painful injustices, when facing the most insurmountable odds and opposition you have ever faced.

00:35:33 Speaker_00
Listen to that language. You can go through painful things and they can turn out to be really special. If you don't mind, I want to share a personal experience I had with this.

00:35:44 Speaker_00
You mentioned at the beginning of my bio, I have a PhD in business administration from UT San Antonio. Towards the end of my PhD program, I had a really bad bout with mental health. I was dealing with really bad anxiety, even some depression.

00:36:00 Speaker_00
Every day was a struggle. It's hard to get up. It was hard to keep going. It's hard to keep the faith. Then with a lot of help and blessings from my wife, I was able to move on and we moved out after I graduated and I got a job as a business professor.

00:36:18 Speaker_00
And then I got invited back to UT San Antonio to give a lecture. I was pretty nervous. I was nervous I would get hit with all those negative feelings I had felt. When I went back, actually the opposite happened.

00:36:36 Speaker_00
I went back to the house I had lived in and I remembered so many prayers I had offered. And I went back to my office and remembered all of the dark days, but also the days where I had felt God's love.

00:36:50 Speaker_00
It became really special to me because one of the darkest times of my life became one of the most sacred. That's what I remember when I went there. I remember thinking, this is a sacred place. This is my prison temple. This is where I came to know God.

00:37:06 Speaker_00
I love that here in chapter six, it points that out. It points out that the Jaredites realized that they were tender mercies, that they praise God for those experiences. Wow.

00:37:20 Speaker_03
That's very touching.

00:37:22 Speaker_00
The only being who can teach you the exact way you need to be taught for your understanding is God. I learned this a few years ago when the church came out with a certain policy. Me personally, I didn't understand it.

00:37:38 Speaker_00
The ward members who are listening are like, wait, Bishop even has questions? The answer is yes, I'm not perfect and I didn't understand it, but I wanted to rather than go read a bunch of stuff on the internet or what people are saying about it.

00:37:51 Speaker_00
I just remember I offered a really heartfelt prayer and said, Lord, I don't understand this, but I have faith in your prophets and in your church leaders helped me understand it.

00:38:03 Speaker_00
And I studied it and I prayed and I did what the doctor had come and said, and I studied out in my mind, something magical happened. It was like I was having companionship study with the Holy Ghost. God taught me the exact way that B.J.

00:38:18 Speaker_00
Allen needed to be taught to understand it. There was no one who could have taught me like that. At least to some degree, I think that's what he means.

00:38:27 Speaker_00
In these times of wickedness, in these times of questions, you need the spirit with you because the spirit can teach you the exact way you need to be taught.

00:38:37 Speaker_03
There's a parallel verse to the one we read, Ether 617 in Doctrine and Covenants 112 verse 10. I bet both of you could quote it.

00:38:45 Speaker_02
Be thou humble and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand and give the answers to thy prayers.

00:38:53 Speaker_03
Walk humbly before the Lord and you'll be taught from on high.

00:38:57 Speaker_00
I love that. That connection between that and that verse. That's awesome. Before we move on to the end of chapter 6 and go on to chapter 7, I want to point out one other thing that's worth noting here. In Ether 6-7, we get this mention that the barges

00:39:15 Speaker_00
were tied like unto a dish, like the Ark of Noah. I have a friend, a good friend, who's an atheist. When we talk about the Bible, one thing he often points out is these outrageous stories in the Bible.

00:39:29 Speaker_00
Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit and Noah and Moses. I love this little mention of the Ark of Noah because the Book of Mormon is a second witness of Bible stories.

00:39:41 Speaker_00
I think of 1st Nephi 1340 where it points out that the Book of Mormon as it relates to the Bible has two purposes.

00:39:50 Speaker_00
It says, quote, make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away, because we know there are some things over the years that were translated or taken away, and the Book of Mormon restores those, and, quote, establish the truth of the first.

00:40:05 Speaker_00
So here it mentions Noah, A book of scripture that's on another side of the world, another set of prophets saying, Hey, there really was a man named Noah and he really did build an ark.

00:40:18 Speaker_00
And when you think about what other Bible stories or characters the Book of Mormon is a second witness of for the Bible. Adam and Eve, Moses, Joseph in Egypt, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Tower of Babel, Christ, John the Baptist, Isaiah.

00:40:38 Speaker_00
We could go on, is that sometimes some of the critiques that the Bible gets, the Book of Mormon is a second witness that those things actually did happen.

00:40:49 Speaker_03
So what you're saying is that a Bible-loving person would love the Book of Mormon?

00:40:56 Speaker_00
Exactly. It's a second witness of the stories that are in it.

00:41:00 Speaker_02
Guys, why was six afraid of seven? Mormon 789, that verse says what you just said. Oh, I love that. Mormon 789 says, and this was written for the intent that you believe that. And if you believe that, you will believe this also.

00:41:19 Speaker_02
And I love that there's some pretty strong purpose statements of the Book of Mormon on the title page.

00:41:26 Speaker_02
And every once in a while, you get another little secondary purpose thrown in there, that you may learn to be more wise than we have been is another favorite. But I love Mormon 789. This was written for the intent that you believe that, the Bible.

00:41:39 Speaker_02
And if you believe that, you will believe this also. Sorry for the dad joke. I caught you off guard. I love it. Why are you saying that right now?

00:41:49 Speaker_03
Yeah, listen, it's always a good time for a John, by the way, dad joke.

00:41:54 Speaker_02
I know. Well, now you'll remember seven, eight. Now you remember it. Can I add something, BJ?

00:41:59 Speaker_03
Frequently, you know, oh, I don't think the flood of Noah was scientifically possible or Jonah in the whale. Really? Is that scientifically possible? And then I usually follow up with, do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus? Right.

00:42:13 Speaker_03
Oh, yeah, of course.

00:42:15 Speaker_01
Let's talk about how scientifically possible that is.

00:42:19 Speaker_03
We're not saying that every Bible story is an absolute literal thing. The literature itself is a genre in its own. You have to learn how to read it.

00:42:27 Speaker_03
But the idea that we would say, well, I don't think the Ark of Noah existed, but I do believe in the resurrection of Jesus. I just don't think we understand the scope of what we mean when we say we believe in the resurrection.

00:42:42 Speaker_00
I love that. Thanks, Hank. What should we do next? As we wrap up Ether 6 and go into Ether 7, we are going to read the greatest spoiler of any book. Ether 622, Jared's people want a king and they ask the brother Jared and Jared to anoint a king.

00:43:01 Speaker_00
And then we get their answer in verse 23. And now behold, this was grievous unto them. And the brother of Jared said unto them, surely this thing leadeth into captivity.

00:43:13 Speaker_00
This is what we're going to see through the rest of the rest of the chapters for come follow me, ether seven through 11. is this thing leaded to captivity. Stop calling me Shirley.

00:43:25 Speaker_02
Yeah, that's the dad joke. If you were going to say it, I was. Mahan Rai said, hey, don't call me Shirley. No, we're not having a kid.

00:43:33 Speaker_00
This is great. This is like I'm reliving my childhood, listening to the John and Hank jokes from their tapes.

00:43:40 Speaker_03
Oh, you get to be part of it now. Yeah. I love it. It's actually a nightmare.

00:43:44 Speaker_02
Shirley, this leads to captivity. Hey, don't call me Shirley.

00:43:47 Speaker_00
My name's Mahan Rai.

00:43:48 Speaker_02
All right.

00:43:50 Speaker_00
Now let's go to chapter 7 and the further chapters. What we're going to ask ourselves is what are we looking for? And remember, Moroni is not just giving a historical account, he's given a spiritual story.

00:44:04 Speaker_00
But let's talk a little bit about the high-level overview of the story in general. For the Jaredites, this covers about 2500 to 3000 years.

00:44:15 Speaker_00
There's 30 generations, there's 30 to 40 different kings, and about a gajillion wars, civil wars, king overthrows. But one of the things I want to point out here is that the Book of Ether is a fantastic testament to Joseph Smith.

00:44:34 Speaker_00
Imagine that Joseph Smith really did make up the Book of Mormon like our critics say. He writes in the earlier chapters about the Nephites, and the Nephites have their culture and their economics and their monetary systems.

00:44:48 Speaker_00
And then Joseph Smith has the audacity to write a whole nother book about a whole nother group of people with their own culture. And the Jaredites are pre-law of Moses. They have their own religious customs as well.

00:45:03 Speaker_00
It's, to me, a cool testament of Joseph Smith. Part of the cultural differences come from maybe the origins of where they came from.

00:45:11 Speaker_00
Hugh Nibley, who was really one of the pioneers in studying the link between the cultures of Middle East and Asia and the Book of Mormon, he points out that maybe some of the differences between the Nephites and the Jaredites were where they originated from.

00:45:26 Speaker_00
He suggests that the Nephites came around Africa and ended up on the East Coast of America.

00:45:33 Speaker_00
And then a lot of experts think that the Jaredites started in Mesopotamia and made their way through Asia and then traveled around the world to the West Coast of the Americas.

00:45:42 Speaker_00
Well, he points out that maybe some of the customs and the differences were that the Jaredites were influenced by the people of Asia. For example, we're going to see this really weird custom among the Jaredites, which is they almost never kill kings.

00:45:56 Speaker_00
You overtake a king and what do you do? You let him live in captivity and he writes and he lives a life and he has kids.

00:46:03 Speaker_00
Again, I think a cool testament to the prophet Joseph Smith and that the Book of Mormon really is a translation of an ancient record.

00:46:12 Speaker_03
B.J., we talked about this last week with Drs. Pierce, Pierce squared. If you go to Ether 1, Joseph Smith goes backwards from Ether all the way to Jethro.

00:46:24 Speaker_02
Thirty-something generations, yeah.

00:46:27 Speaker_03
Verse after verse after verse. This is where my kids go, really? Can we just skip? He does that in Chapter 1, and then Chapters 2 through 15, he does the exact same list, but in reverse order. How would you remember all of that? Unbelievable.

00:46:42 Speaker_03
He goes through and says, okay, now here's the genealogy. Now let's go back through and tell the story of each. We don't base our testimony off of these things, but it's incredible to think about.

00:46:52 Speaker_00
It is incredible. Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out.

00:46:55 Speaker_02
BJ, one of the things that's really fun to relate about this is the ancient origins of the game of chess and how you treat the king. You don't kill the king in chess. You put him in check.

00:47:08 Speaker_02
Can I read something from Hugh Nibley, because I thought this was so cool. He says, these insane wars of the Jaredite chiefs ended in the complete annihilation of both sides with kings the last to go.

00:47:20 Speaker_02
This all seems improbable to us, but two circumstances peculiar to Asiatic, I think that's Asia, T-I-C, Asiatic warfare explained by the phenomenon is by no means without parallel.

00:47:32 Speaker_02
Since every war is strictly a personal contest between kings, the battle must continue until one of the kings falls or is taken.

00:47:42 Speaker_02
And yet things are so arranged that the king must be very last to fall, the whole army existing for the sole purpose of defending his person.

00:47:50 Speaker_02
This is clearly seen in the game of chess, quoting Hugh Nibley, in which all pieces are expendable except the king, who can never be taken. Then he quotes a scholar named M. E. Moghaddam, the shot in chess is not killed and does not die.

00:48:06 Speaker_02
The game is terminated when the shot is pressed into a position from which he cannot escape.

00:48:11 Speaker_02
This is in line with all good traditions of chess playing and, back of it, the tradition of capturing the king in war rather than slaying him, whenever that could be accomplished.

00:48:21 Speaker_02
Now, back to Hindley, you will recall the many instances in the Book of Ether in which kings were kept in prison for many years, but not killed. In the code of medieval chivalry taken over from Central Asia, the person of the king is sacred.

00:48:34 Speaker_02
All others must perish in his defense. Isn't that interesting that that would be in there? Because like you said, it sounds weird to us, but they don't kill the king. They put him in check.

00:48:45 Speaker_00
I like what Hank said. We don't base our testimonies on these things, but it's pretty cool still. Yeah, it's fun. It's fun.

00:48:53 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:48:54 Speaker_03
Dr. Spencer would tell us it can't be about the evidence. It has to be about the text. So if he's listening, Joe, we're sorry. We just had to do that just for just for us.

00:49:05 Speaker_00
As we go through chapter 7, we're going to see the Jaredites go through this cycle. And it's similar to what President Benson calls the pride cycle. They're wicked. The Lord sends prophets. The prophets are rejected. The people are punished.

00:49:20 Speaker_00
Then they repent. Then they're righteous. And then the cycle starts over.

00:49:25 Speaker_00
When we're looking through the stories of the Jaredites, I think it's such a beautiful example, not only that God offers blessings and punishments for keeping his commandments and not keeping them, but also that not keeping commandments brings terrible consequences in a natural way.

00:49:44 Speaker_00
It's not that God won't let you be happy when you're not obeying the commandments, it's that life won't let you be happy. God knows what will make you happy. God wants us to be happy and he gives us commandments to help us to be happy.

00:49:57 Speaker_00
As we read through the Jaredites, let's remember that and let's look for that. What are some of the things that Jaredites do that make them unhappy? And let's look at what led to their downfall and some of the parallels in our day.

00:50:09 Speaker_00
So that's the way I want to approach Ether 7 and 8 and so on. What are some of the things that led to the downfall and what are their parallels in our days? Let's go to Ether 7, 20 through 21.

00:50:22 Speaker_00
there's kings and there's wars and there's downfalls and then we get this says and the country was divided and there were two kingdoms the kingdom of shul and the kingdom of kohor the son of noah and kohor the son of noah caused that his people should give battle into shul in which shul did beat them and slay kohor

00:50:42 Speaker_00
I want to focus on this phrase at the beginning, the country was divided, because this is a theme throughout the Jaredites is that someone else wants to be king and they entice the kingdom to come to them. There's so much division and contention.

00:50:59 Speaker_00
I think about the talk by President Nelson, Peacemakers Needed. There's a time where this is relevant. It's to us because we see so much parallels between now and the days of the brother of Jared.

00:51:12 Speaker_00
This is the quote from President Nelson, talk Peacemakers Needed. Vulgarity, fault finding, and evil speaking of others are all too common. Too many pundits, politicians, entertainers, and other influencers throw insults constantly.

00:51:28 Speaker_00
I am greatly concerned that so many people seem to believe it is completely acceptable to condemn, malign, and vilify anyone who does not agree with them. Why does President Nelson feel so passionate about the division and the things that we see?

00:51:46 Speaker_00
And to show this, I want to share some stats that demonstrate how people like to vilify other people who don't agree with them. This was a study, 2002, the Pew Research, which is a very reputable market research company.

00:52:00 Speaker_00
They asked people of one political party what they thought of the people of the other political party.

00:52:07 Speaker_00
I'm not going to talk about what the political party said because I don't want this to be political, but I think it illustrates how divided people are when someone disagrees with them.

00:52:17 Speaker_00
They ask people what party they belong to, and then they ask them what they thought of the other party. They ask the people the degree to which they felt the other party was close-minded.

00:52:26 Speaker_00
What is the percent of people who said the other political party was a lot or somewhat close-minded? 83% for one and 69% for the other. They ask the same question with the degree to which you felt the other party was dishonest, 72 and 64.

00:52:47 Speaker_00
And the degree to which you felt the other political party was immoral, 72 and 63. This is people you don't even know. And it's okay to not agree with other people. That's what makes diversity. That's what makes humanity great.

00:53:03 Speaker_00
But one of the things that's so concerning is that all these numbers have substantially increased since their last study in 2016. Let's take dishonest for example. In 2016 these percentages were 45 and 42 and now they're 72 and 63.

00:53:21 Speaker_00
How do we remedy this example of trying to vilify people who don't believe the way that you think?

00:53:29 Speaker_00
President Nelson said this in that same talk, as disciples of Jesus Christ, we are to be examples of how to interact with others, especially when we have differences of opinion.

00:53:41 Speaker_00
One of the easiest ways to identify a true follower of Jesus Christ is how compassionately that person treats other people. okay. It's okay to disagree. Again, that's what makes diversity. That's what makes us great.

00:53:53 Speaker_00
But it's not okay to vilify people because they have a different opinion than you do. How do we get to the point where we treat people compassionately? At least to some degree, what President Nelson here is teaching is to see their viewpoint.

00:54:09 Speaker_00
Again, we don't have to agree with them, but we fight division with compassion. I learned this lesson, this was a few years ago. I was helping a family who was on church welfare. They were a fantastic family going through some hard times.

00:54:24 Speaker_00
And I would meet with them occasionally to talk about their budget and what we needed to do to help. There was one particular meeting where I met with the husband. He got really angry.

00:54:36 Speaker_00
He didn't understand why we needed to meet and he felt I thought he was just accepting handouts and things that weren't true. And as he's talking and being mean to me, my anger inside me is boiling. And I'm like, I'm here to help you.

00:54:50 Speaker_00
And you're getting mad at me. I remember saying a prayer. I said, God, I feel really angry right now, but I don't want to feel this way. Please help me. And then in an instant, all of a sudden I saw this individual the way that God had saw him.

00:55:07 Speaker_00
He wasn't trying to be angry. He was going through a really hard time. I saw how compassionately God saw him. In an instant, my whole attitude and emotions changed. And I told him, I said, Hey, I'm sorry for anything I did that made you feel that way.

00:55:26 Speaker_00
And that's not how I feel. I apologized to him. And then you know what happened? His demeanor changed and the walls went down and he apologized to me. He said, Hey, I'm going through a really hard time. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said those things.

00:55:46 Speaker_00
He was a great man and he became a good friend, a good person going through a bad day.

00:55:53 Speaker_00
And I learned from that experience that it's okay when people don't agree with you or sometimes that they say something mean to you, but we don't fight division and contention with division and contention. We fight division with compassion.

00:56:06 Speaker_03
John, do you remember, I think Alma 60 and 61, that exchange between Captain Moroni and Pahoran is such a lesson. Moroni really, really gives it to Pohoran. And Pohoran responds with, I do not joy in your afflictions. It grieves my soul.

00:56:28 Speaker_03
In your epistle, you have censured me. But it mattereth not. I am not angry. I rejoice in the greatness of your heart.

00:56:38 Speaker_00
How does Moroni react after that? They unite. Yeah. Moroni realizes, hey, actually Pohoran, he's a friend. And we're going to do this together. I love that.

00:56:49 Speaker_02
I was thinking of the sign of Samuel the Lamanite and how those people that were watching for the sign and it wasn't given, okay, let's set aside a day to put to death those who believed in the sign.

00:57:01 Speaker_02
What happened to, well, let's just agree to disagree? I mean, how did they get to that point where, well, that didn't happen, therefore we have to kill you? That's a frightening end of what you're talking about here.

00:57:14 Speaker_02
If we allow the way we see people to get harsher and more harsh and more polarizing until we think you don't have a right to live because you believe this way. Whoa, how did that happen?

00:57:24 Speaker_02
I love you brought up Moroni and Pahoran because here's a couple of guys that we love that are passionate and Pahoran responds so beautifully. There was, at the beginning of the reign of the judges, some sort of no law against a man's belief.

00:57:41 Speaker_02
But somehow, when the secret combinations infiltrated, it became to where they could kill people for believing something pretty intense.

00:57:51 Speaker_03
And one thing, BJ, that I thought of is for me personally, this happened when Sister Dew came on. She said, who are you listening to and what do they want? John, you could say it better than me. Who else would you listen to? Which talk show host?

00:58:07 Speaker_03
What influencer would you rather listen to than the prophet? And then she said, because all of those people want something from you. I've learned myself to be careful around anyone who needs to keep me angry so they can continue their work.

00:58:23 Speaker_03
If I can fuel your anger, I can keep you coming back to my platform or whatever it is. For me, I just have to be careful and watch out for that.

00:58:34 Speaker_02
I can't remember who our guest was that emphasized, look how many times it says they did stir them up to anger. They had a desired outcome for that and it wasn't good.

00:58:44 Speaker_01
Watch out for those who are trying to stir you up into anger.

00:58:48 Speaker_00
We'll continue on the same theme of what led to the Jaredites to fall. We talked about how there was division and contention. And then we get another indication here in Ether 7.23, and also the reign of Shul, there came many prophets among the people.

00:59:06 Speaker_00
who were sent from the Lord, prophesying that the wickedness and idolatry of the people was bringing a curse upon the land, and they should be destroyed if they did not repent." That's the second thing, is wickedness and idolatry.

00:59:21 Speaker_00
Sometimes idolatry literally means idol worship, and sometimes in the scriptures it just means they have a love for worldly things, anything besides God. And then we get another indicator in verse 24,

00:59:35 Speaker_00
And it came to pass that the people did revile against the prophets, and did mock them. And it came to pass that King Shul did execute judgment against all those who did revile against the prophets.

00:59:48 Speaker_00
And this is a theme throughout the whole Book of Mormon, but especially in Ether. The Lord sends prophets to help them. All the prophets want to do is tell the people what God wants them to know and what will make them happy.

01:00:02 Speaker_00
And people don't like to be told what to do. oh we want to be independent, you want to take away our agency. We learn through the book of Ether it's just foolish to not do what the prophets tell you because the prophets are always right.

01:00:18 Speaker_00
The Book of Mormon teaches us the prophets are always right and you can disagree with them and you can disobey them but it's at your own peril.

01:00:27 Speaker_00
Along with that, listen to this quote from President Packer about how prophets aren't taking away our agency, but they're just trying to help us.

01:00:41 Speaker_00
They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. Now, I love this part. We are not obedient because we are blind.

01:00:56 Speaker_00
We are obedient because we can see. We don't follow the prophet simply because we have to out of a sense of duty. It's because we want to. It's because we see how following the prophet blesses us.

01:01:10 Speaker_00
Not just in those big, thus saith the Lord moments, where we're like, oh, the prophet, he's laying down the hammer here. We need to obey him. There's so much blessings in just immersing ourselves in their teachings.

01:01:24 Speaker_00
I already brought up one earlier, the talk from Elder Holland that I used to listen to every day when I was dealing with mental health. It was my pump-up song. I served my mission in Detroit, and I was serving in a struggling branch.

01:01:38 Speaker_00
I read a talk by Elder Christofferson about conversion. And I said, this is what I want for my branch. We implemented, it was like a playbook. We implemented play by play what he said, and it totally changed the trajectory of our branch.

01:01:55 Speaker_00
I could go on and on with ways that the prophets have helped me. And I would say, this is why I feel so passionate about following the prophet.

01:02:04 Speaker_00
Because I can see, I've seen the ways that prophets help us, and I've seen the ways that they've blessed my life as I followed them.

01:02:13 Speaker_00
But more importantly, when we understand why the Lord sends prophets, the most important reason that we follow the prophet is because prophets bring us to the Savior. They help us understand things about our Savior and about His plan for us.

01:02:30 Speaker_00
For example, if I think about why I love Joseph Smith, I love studying the Prophet's life. But why do I really love Joseph Smith? It's because his teachings bring me closer to the Savior.

01:02:44 Speaker_00
Because of the things that he restored, I understand the plan of salvation better. I understand the role that my Savior plays in my life.

01:02:52 Speaker_00
Joseph Smith brought me the Book of Mormon, where I have beautiful teachings that help me understand the atonement, like Alma 42, about the law of justice and the law of mercy, and how Christ appeases both laws.

01:03:04 Speaker_00
I think of Alma 7, where I learn about how Christ took upon infirmities. Prophets are the mouthpiece of God. They're anointed by him to lead his church. Part of the reason we follow the prophet is because we love Christ.

01:03:18 Speaker_00
Hank, you mentioned when Sherry Dew was on the show, one of the things that she says is, sustaining the prophet in today's world takes faith, but not faith in them, faith in Jesus Christ who called them.

01:03:30 Speaker_00
Doctrine and Covenants section 84, he that receiveth my servants receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth my Father. The same way that we receive the Father if we receive Jesus is the same way that we receive Jesus if we receive his prophets.

01:03:47 Speaker_00
The prophets are a representation of the Savior. I'm so grateful for our prophets because they helped me come to understand my Savior better. Coming up in part two of this episode, I do organizational training sometimes for companies.

01:04:03 Speaker_00
One of the things I'll talk about is this concept of mindset, like having a growth mindset, having a mindset that gets you through difficult experiences and has courage to take on challenges.

01:04:15 Speaker_00
And one of the things I share is this insight from the Pacific Institute, which is an organizational consulting agency. They call it the flick back, flick up technique.