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Episode: Esther Calling - I Don't Want to Turn Into My Mother

Author: Esther Perel Global Media
Duration: 00:55:12

Episode Shownotes

After becoming a mother for the first time, a young woman, reflects on the complicated relationship with her own mother. Esther guides her through establishing boundaries with grace, breaking generational cycles, and the importance of self-acceptance. If you have an individual question you would like to talk through with Esther,

please send a voice memo to [email protected]. If you would like to apply for a couples session with Esther, please click here: https://bit.ly/40fGHIU. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_01
Sometimes I think a good way to start is for us to listen to your question together and then take it from there. Sure. Yeah.

00:00:12 Speaker_03
So my question is how can I get peace or more peace or get more serene with the fact that instead of becoming more and more empathetic for my mother after I just had a kid, I am actually developing more and more resentment.

00:00:34 Speaker_03
Everyone keeps saying since I become a parent I now understand mind and I'm so grateful and I have the polar opposites. I feel like I have a conflictual relationship with my mom.

00:00:45 Speaker_03
I don't think she would think so or she would deny it, let's put it this way. And it was conflictual from my side before I became a mom and now it's been a year that I gave birth to my son and every day I keep looking at him and I keep thinking,

00:01:03 Speaker_03
How come could you educate me like that? Like, no, when I see a vulnerable child in front of me, I understand less and less. And yeah, I find that difficult to process.

00:01:29 Speaker_01
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00:03:07 Speaker_01
You understand less and less or you understand more and more?

00:03:14 Speaker_04
I think I was hoping when I was pregnant that maybe I would understand more and I would become more empathetic or that this would help me resolve some things.

00:03:25 Speaker_04
I mean, it's definitely not what I had to get, but I was hoping that in the process maybe it would get me closer to her. And that's definitely not the case.

00:03:33 Speaker_01
Tell me a little bit more about your relationship with your mom.

00:03:40 Speaker_04
She takes a huge space in my head and in my heart, although I get physically more and more away from her. I've moved to multiple countries. I think I could reach the point where I could have a kid not being close to her because she would have been

00:03:57 Speaker_04
in the way, one way or another.

00:03:59 Speaker_01
And then you realize that the umbilical cord is infinitely elastic. Yeah, that's, yeah, definitely.

00:04:09 Speaker_04
I think what is hard now is I also don't know how to handle her as my son's grandma. And I think that's where it's difficult coming from here. My parents divorced when I was 10. So my dad is out of the picture. So she's And even in my family, she's huge.

00:04:28 Speaker_04
She's the glue. She's really like pivotal for everything is organized around her.

00:04:35 Speaker_01
How many kids are you?

00:04:37 Speaker_04
We're two. So I have an older brother. He's 11 years older than me, but he's from a first marriage. I'm the only child of my parents together. And basically the education was extremely strict. It's never been about trust. And it didn't evolve with time.

00:04:56 Speaker_04
So one would think that, you know, me becoming an adult, she could trust me more, or she would be less in control and authority. And this is still very much a place she wants to have. And I think I just don't deserve that.

00:05:14 Speaker_01
So how does that play itself out? Can you give me an example? You've said three big things. She's the glue. She takes up a lot of space in my interior life. No matter how many countries I've gone to, she goes with me.

00:05:33 Speaker_01
You know, she's in an invisible suitcase, but she's right there. I experience her centrality and her wielding of authority as a lack of trust in me, when in fact, she succeeded quite well. Meaning, I am as responsible as she was hoping I would be.

00:05:57 Speaker_01
And more, probably. So, it's not that she doesn't trust you, but that she may not trust herself, that she has done her job well, and that she needs to be told, you've done a really great job.

00:06:13 Speaker_01
But at this point, you still think that when she tells you what to do, that it means she doesn't trust you.

00:06:20 Speaker_04
Whatever idea I suggest, whatever I do, it will always be welcome with suspicion.

00:06:25 Speaker_01
Yes, but there may be better ways to respond. But tell me more so I understand.

00:06:32 Speaker_04
I think nowadays the issue is guilt. That's the main part. It's always guilt.

00:06:37 Speaker_01
Your guilt.

00:06:38 Speaker_04
My guilt. My guilt being far away, but still this is basically the only way I've managed to be at peace on a daily basis. But my guilt?

00:06:50 Speaker_04
my guilt of not wanting her to be close to my kid, because I don't want her to have that kind of relationship with my kid, this authority, this violence, the... This violence meaning what? Oh, she would scream, she would be very harsh, very hard.

00:07:12 Speaker_04
There is no way of, like, everything needs to be absolutely perfect, she definitely doesn't understand that kids are kids and sometimes they don't even make mistakes, it's just they are being kids and she believes in discipline very strongly.

00:07:27 Speaker_01
Is that a family tradition?

00:07:31 Speaker_04
I think so. Yeah, I would say so. My mom immigrated, her parents immigrated before. I think there's very much this idea that you need to not make any noise, you need to not be seen and you need to behave absolutely perfectly.

00:07:46 Speaker_04
Perfection was the only way, basically. And for example, she doesn't have a high school degree, but both my brother and I, we went through high school. We're first generation at uni. He's a teacher. I have two PhDs.

00:07:58 Speaker_04
Like, you know, it's just been endless and it's never enough. It's never been enough. And I just, I don't want that for my son now. I don't want him to be seen this way. I see how she is with my son. My brother has two kids.

00:08:13 Speaker_04
And she still very much believes that her role is to discipline them and not to be like the grandma baking cakes with them, for example. And I just don't want that. But still, I find that very hard to own.

00:08:29 Speaker_01
What happens when you are with your little boy? How much of that enters that space? It's huge, because I think

00:08:42 Speaker_04
To a certain extent, it helps me not making the same mistakes, but then I put myself under a huge amount of pressure to not reproduce the same issues.

00:08:51 Speaker_04
Basically, whenever I would see myself then wanting to raise my voice a little bit because of boundary being crossed, then I'm instantly thinking, is it wrong? Like, should I do completely the other way?

00:09:05 Speaker_01
But you also evaluate yourself with the same harshness that you feel she evaluated you. So she lives inside of you more than you care to. And so while you emphasize guilt and you emphasize resentment, I'm also hearing fear.

00:09:24 Speaker_04
Oh yes, very much.

00:09:26 Speaker_01
Very much.

00:09:26 Speaker_04
Tell me. But just thinking, for example, that she could once hear this conversation makes me feel scared. Of course. Of the reaction very much.

00:09:39 Speaker_01
But you did it anyway.

00:09:41 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:09:42 Speaker_01
Why? Why?

00:09:43 Speaker_04
Because someone has to. And I'm this person in my family. I'm the one going, pushing back, trying to change patterns, trying to change things. And it's very hard. It's very isolating as well. I want my son to have a better relationship.

00:10:01 Speaker_04
For example, I don't take love for granted from him. I know he owes me nothing, and I hope that one day when he'll be an adult, he'll choose to keep seeing me. But this is very much the relationship we create, and I don't take that for granted.

00:10:13 Speaker_04
My mom very much takes that for granted. I've heard her saying things like that, for example, to my partner, saying, you can easily lose your son, but for example, your daughter, you will never lose. And him thinking, whoa.

00:10:27 Speaker_04
you're very, very far away from the situation.

00:10:32 Speaker_04
She takes the relationship we have for granted, no matter how far I go, I call less and less, and it's not to hurt her, it's just really to protect myself, because any interaction I have with her is difficult.

00:10:49 Speaker_01
And so, what do you want? What would make it better at this moment?

00:10:58 Speaker_04
I think maybe hearing that you don't need to be necessarily close to your mom. I think that's one thing where it's hard. I don't hope that my relationship with my mom is miraculously going to improve.

00:11:12 Speaker_04
It can improve a little bit, but it's more about how do I just accept that things are just the way they are? How can I also try to explain to my son when he grows up that

00:11:24 Speaker_04
We might not see grandma more than twice a year because that's best for everyone or that's what I chose to be best for everyone.

00:11:33 Speaker_01
So when you say fear and you say there is a lot of fear, fear of what?

00:11:40 Speaker_04
I think of her completely denying my feeling and the experience and just staying like, I don't know, very confident of a position and making me feel like I'm the one having a problem or I'm the one inadequate.

00:12:00 Speaker_01
You know, you described that you have a conflictual relationship with her.

00:12:05 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:12:07 Speaker_01
Means what? Because that's before you had your boy. That's been there for a long time. And the more you react against her, and the more you try to push her away, and the more you realize that she is right inside of you.

00:12:29 Speaker_01
So, you don't have to separate as much from her physically as you may want to separate from the one that lives inside of you.

00:12:40 Speaker_04
I think since my son was born, there have been a lot of memories and feeling that re-emerged as well. And I mean, I've been in therapy before. I thought I had done the work, or the most part of the work.

00:12:53 Speaker_01
Wait till you have a child.

00:12:55 Speaker_04
Exactly. Now it's not the adult anymore that is just speaking and feeling sad. It's actually also just the kid and I don't know how to help this one.

00:13:08 Speaker_01
The kid inside of you. Yeah. Do you have memories of you and your mother in tenderness, or in softness, or kindness, or playfulness?

00:13:22 Speaker_04
Not really. Not really. I think she delegated a lot of this to my brother. As I said, he's 11 years older than me, so he was the one playful. And my parents were so conflictual with each other that there was no space for me, and everything else was

00:13:38 Speaker_04
than at my grandparents. So I don't have much memories of that. And I don't think we've never- With her.

00:13:45 Speaker_01
With her. But you had it with your grandparents. Yeah. Because what makes the difference in our lives is when we've had it, even if we have had it with someone else.

00:13:59 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:14:00 Speaker_01
That someone loved us tenderly, gently, playfully, sweetly, not necessarily unconditionally, but loved us.

00:14:11 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:14:13 Speaker_01
And that too lives inside of you. And your grandparents may have been very different with you. You're saying yes, so finish the sentence.

00:14:27 Speaker_04
They were very different with me as grandparents that they were as parents for my mom.

00:14:32 Speaker_01
Yes.

00:14:32 Speaker_04
And I think I was hoping this to happen. When I say I was hoping that also with having a kid we would reconcile some of those things, I was hoping that maybe she would become more tender with my son. And this just doesn't happen.

00:14:45 Speaker_04
They've seen each other a few times and it just doesn't happen. And I think that's very disappointing for me too.

00:14:54 Speaker_01
At all or slowly?

00:14:57 Speaker_04
I don't know. I don't know yet. Maybe it's not been enough occasions, opportunities.

00:15:04 Speaker_01
But that, the yet is very important here. Your mother was raised with a lot of discipline by people who had certain ideas of how they would establish themselves, of how they would navigate migration, and how they would keep their daughters safe.

00:15:28 Speaker_01
and how they understood gender and that sentence that you lose your son but you keep your daughter is pervasive across cultures. This is not an original statement she came up with.

00:15:43 Speaker_01
And in a way, if your mother looks at it, she probably thinks it worked.

00:15:50 Speaker_04
I think she does.

00:15:51 Speaker_01
Right. It worked for her and it worked for you. Look, here is my daughter, how accomplished she is, how she stayed on track, how she became so competent, et cetera. And so to my son.

00:16:08 Speaker_01
So she's in an interesting paradox because on the one hand, she thinks she succeeded. And on the other end, you tell her she was off.

00:16:18 Speaker_01
You confront, you fight, you scream, you this, you that, but in fact, there's a white gate with an open door, and she walks in and out of your trip, as they say in French, your guts.

00:16:32 Speaker_01
And that is more you're doing, and that's where you can make change. Because when you make that change, your relationship with her will change.

00:16:43 Speaker_04
Any hint of how I do that?

00:16:45 Speaker_01
Yeah.

00:16:48 Speaker_01
But there are two parts to this, you see, because you don't want to be like that, but when you make the slightest mistake, what you consider a mistake, or the slightest thing you don't think is the right way to be or the way you want to be, you actually react to yourself exactly the way she reacted to you.

00:17:15 Speaker_01
So, there may be some steps in between. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Babbel.

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00:22:18 Speaker_01
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00:22:31 Speaker_01
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00:22:46 Speaker_01
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00:23:22 Speaker_01
If you can't change what she does, but you can change how you react to what she does, then what she does takes on a whole new meaning.

00:23:37 Speaker_01
Sometimes when I say that, people say, but I have to be the one, or it's all on me again, or, you know, I think it's liberating.

00:23:46 Speaker_04
To be fair, I've tried. And I think it's not even I've tried. That's what I do in terms of the behavior I have. But then it's the internal dialogue that is very difficult.

00:23:57 Speaker_01
Yes, yes, yes.

00:23:59 Speaker_04
That's where I'm stuck.

00:24:00 Speaker_01
You have different values. You don't want a mother the way she did. You have a different sense of child-rearing philosophy and maybe of relational and intimate philosophy. But you are very thoughtful about it. You think about it all the time.

00:24:20 Speaker_01
You scrutinize yourself as a mom. And so imagine that whenever you think your mother doesn't trust you, it's often because she's afraid, because she's not necessarily always trusting herself. And she really thinks that she has to hold a tight grip.

00:24:46 Speaker_01
And so sometimes something very interesting happens when instead of trying to push mom away, just get out of my business, get out of my space, get out of my head.

00:25:01 Speaker_01
We in fact say, I probably have never told you that because in effect you have been telling her the whole time that you dislike what she's done.

00:25:12 Speaker_01
But along that is also to tell her, you know, when I think about where I got my thoughtfulness and my drive and my diligence and my convictions, I look at you too. I may have landed very different convictions and a drive for very different things.

00:25:38 Speaker_01
I planted different seeds, but I got the seeds from you. It's going to be a tough one. Well, let's first see if it even resonates for you. I haven't sent you to anything yet. But do you think it all came just from you or in fact?

00:25:56 Speaker_01
See, we get our resources, our strengths. sometimes from very good places, and sometimes from very challenging places. The things we dislike the most are what ended up producing inside of us exactly that.

00:26:13 Speaker_01
Your mothering style comes from your dislike of her mothering style. But you are both equally convinced. Yeah. Hot or cold? No, pretty hot, pretty hot. You have to do nothing yet, not to worry. Now I'm pretty hot.

00:26:32 Speaker_01
I want to see if I can help you step out of your stuckness. Because you've been thinking the same way for a long time. And it's not really helping you. And there are other truths that exist alongside.

00:26:48 Speaker_01
Mom, I have to thank you, and this is in your head, for some of the things that are central in my life and that I attribute to you, even though I made different choices about it. the thoughtfulness I put into it, the importance I attach to it.

00:27:10 Speaker_01
Those things come from you. And I want you to know that because I think you don't always know and trust that you have done well and that you can resign from your job now.

00:27:26 Speaker_04
I see. I think this I can do.

00:27:30 Speaker_01
No, no, we're not talking about doing nothing yet. I just want you to react to it.

00:27:37 Speaker_04
It's hard to say, it's hard to think, to be fair, because I'm thinking, did it have to be that harsh to reach this point?

00:27:44 Speaker_01
Yes, yes, yes.

00:27:45 Speaker_04
So think is a tough one. Acknowledge part of it, I think this I can, I can.

00:27:51 Speaker_01
You're absolutely right. I don't want to thank her. I just want to tell her, Mom, I just want you to know that so many of my beliefs, my convictions and my diligence to abide by them is mirrored on you.

00:28:08 Speaker_01
I'm trying to think how she would react and I have no clue. No, no, no. It's not about how she would react. I have never seen a parent say, I hate what you just said.

00:28:17 Speaker_01
Okay, you know, basically, this is what they've been wanting to hear forever, is that it landed somewhere. The main piece is towards you. It gives you

00:28:28 Speaker_01
a way to experience a positive identification with your mother when what lives inside of you is a multitude of negative identifications. There's a reason to why I'm saying this. It's not just to be sweet.

00:28:43 Speaker_01
You need to be able to connect with parts of you that resemble her from a place of acceptance because they're good. Okay. Yeah. Just stay with that, it's okay. Because you fight when you're with her and you cry when you're alone.

00:29:07 Speaker_01
Loosen your jaw for a moment. Just open it and loosen it. Because it's very, very tight. And you hold so much.

00:29:22 Speaker_04
It goes to places that are just so deep. like thinking they are good things, then to like as well. That's where it lands and that's, yeah, harsh.

00:29:35 Speaker_01
Good things inside of you. Yeah. That may have come from not such good things between the two of you.

00:29:43 Speaker_04
Yeah, I think I'm the first one that needs to be convinced by that and work on that.

00:29:49 Speaker_01
And you can put your other hand over this one and just massage the heart. because you're harsh with yourself. This is a very intuitive moment of tenderness with you. Yeah, and you can breathe right into your hands. Where did you just land?

00:30:13 Speaker_04
I would be fine to be a little bit more gentle with myself without thinking of her in the mix, but more gentle and and that it'd be fine if things are not perfect, because you can still raise someone good, even if you don't do things perfectly.

00:30:39 Speaker_01
Is there a question mark at the end of this? No. Want to talk to my sons?

00:30:46 Speaker_04
I think it's not something I'm going to be able, it's definitely a hard work, but if I can go back to this idea more often, I think life would be a little bit sweeter.

00:30:57 Speaker_01
One of the ways you go back is you put your hand right. It was you. Naturally, your hand came straight to your chest and to your heart. And then you put the other hand over it. And then if you want, you put your hands across your arms.

00:31:14 Speaker_01
And you do it especially when you do something you don't like. And this holding says I'm worthy of love even when I fuck up, basically. I'm a good mom even if I do something that I don't think is the thing that's gonna land me in the hit parade.

00:31:38 Speaker_01
No, this thing ain't gonna damage them for the rest of their life. It's not every little boo-boo becomes the determining factor of their future. Because the point is not to replace one perfection with another.

00:31:53 Speaker_04
No, it's to make life bearable. I know it's still short, but I thought that one year into that I would have let go on this idea of the perfect mom, and I still have not. And it's not very enjoyable.

00:32:07 Speaker_01
No, plus here I am having supposedly a conflictual relationship with my mom, but I'm as loyal as can be. Yeah. See, the change doesn't come from keeping the structure but changing the outcome.

00:32:26 Speaker_01
I mean, similar rigidity, similar dogma, just different religions. The goal is to introduce the flexibility into the religion, to highlight the spirit over the law.

00:32:42 Speaker_02
I understand.

00:32:49 Speaker_01
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Me, personally, I'm interested in trying the classes about filmmaking by Martin Scorsese and Spike Lee, two filmmakers that I so highly respect. And I want to hear them talk about their craft, about the art, about the process.

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00:35:01 Speaker_01
So head over to masterclass.com slash begin for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com slash begin. Masterclass.com slash begin. Give me a moment when you thought, I did this well. I like who I was. in mom land?

00:35:27 Speaker_04
I think when I just spend time watching my son for who he is, like not trying to impose a structure or an activity, but just being like, this is you.

00:35:40 Speaker_04
I just intentionally decide that I'm going to withdraw a little bit and just watch and let him do his thing on his own, on his term, play with the things he wants and just just enjoy watching that, because I find that mesmerizing.

00:35:58 Speaker_04
And then I just see him explore.

00:35:59 Speaker_04
Whenever he does something new that is entirely up to him and that I didn't try to trigger, and I can just see the pride he has, then that's where I'm like, yeah, that's the kind of parent I want to be, allowing that kind of pride to emerge.

00:36:18 Speaker_04
I see him as a little animal as well. It's not been domesticated and then you can just see it grow. And I love seeing that. I think there's so much for me to learn there too.

00:36:31 Speaker_01
So when I go to observe the animals in the wild, and I bring my open curiosity, and I don't try to impose anything because if I am with the animals in the wild, there's nothing for me to impose.

00:36:52 Speaker_01
And I take my binoculars and I watch and I observe and I am enchanted by the intricate world I am looking at. So many times you will tell yourself, I'm going in the wild. Not I need to take care of my kid. I'm going in the wild. It's nice. I like that.

00:37:18 Speaker_01
And you take your binoculars with you. And you remember in the wild, human beings don't control too much. Even adults. And by the way, the wild has existed long before you came along. And it has been knowing how to structure and regulate itself forever.

00:37:44 Speaker_01
So have babies. They need holding and soothing, and they need interpreting of the world they live in.

00:37:56 Speaker_04
Thank you for this one.

00:37:58 Speaker_01
Which one?

00:38:00 Speaker_04
The wild. The wild and the binoculars. It's one I will easily remember.

00:38:09 Speaker_01
We can have a few more. But I was also noticing how every time you feel that something is given to you and that you are receiving, you're putting your hand right on your heart. And that also can accompany you.

00:38:30 Speaker_01
a sense of awe, because babies induce a sense of awe in us, as well as dread. It goes back and forth sometimes. Those are very clear and very practical things I can hold on to.

00:38:47 Speaker_04
You like that? I definitely do like to be anchored to things. Otherwise, emotions get very intense. And the story in my head goes very, very fast.

00:39:04 Speaker_04
And I can easily see myself trying to control things and then remember just go back to the wild and then reground.

00:39:15 Speaker_01
Do you think if you can do more of that with yourself as a mom, that you will be less reactive every time your mom comes closer to you? Because you will actually

00:39:30 Speaker_01
experience more boundary, which means more clarity around your role and expectations of yourself?

00:39:40 Speaker_04
I think there's experience like time and repetition of knowing that what I do with my son is aligned with who I want to be. I was tempted to say it's the right thing, but now I just corrected myself. I think more of this will help me

00:39:59 Speaker_04
be less shaken whenever my mom questions what I do or suggests very strongly that what I do is not the right way to do.

00:40:08 Speaker_01
You know, it was a while when I had this intervention that I would do in couples, but I think it can be done probably quite nicely between mom and daughter. And if she criticizes you, you can do the defensive, justifying. I know what I'm doing.

00:40:29 Speaker_01
I'm not 20 years old. Stop budging me. And the reason it isn't useful is because while you're doing that, she's creeping under your skin through the big door. That's part of why it's not useful.

00:40:44 Speaker_01
It's not that there is anything wrong in what you say, it's just that it doesn't accomplish what you want. It doesn't really establish the boundary. So I used to think, what would be one of these other images like going into the wild?

00:41:01 Speaker_01
And at the moment the person criticizes you, her, instead of saying, stop criticizing me or putting me down all the time, you would say, I really appreciate how you are continuously trying to make me a better person.

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And if you laugh, that's a very good sign. It's a dedication to see you, till today, continue to try to make me a better person. I appreciate it. And inside of you, the rest of the sentence is, and I'll continue to do what I want to do.

00:41:38 Speaker_01
Then the two shall coexist. Yeah. So instead of you criticizing me, you're putting me down, you're challenging me, it becomes you are continuously trying to make me a better person. Thank you. And honestly, there is nothing to answer after that.

00:41:58 Speaker_01
This is not for her. This is for you. This is a boundary making for you. She may or may not like the comment, but it usually stops the conversation without your having to react.

00:42:16 Speaker_04
Yeah, because so far, I mean, defensive I've been doing for a while and then the alternative has been to just try to escape, but I would still be boiling inside and I think that's where it's hard versus maybe with this one, we can move on.

00:42:31 Speaker_04
I mean, we can try to move on.

00:42:34 Speaker_01
We need a repertoire of 10 of those.

00:42:36 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:42:37 Speaker_01
Okay. And because you play different songs at different time, you don't have one song on your playlist. So give me one of her comments to you.

00:42:47 Speaker_04
Actually, it's anything I say with the, are you sure? Are you really sure? Which means you're obviously doing the wrong thing.

00:42:54 Speaker_01
Mm-hmm. Now, go to the wild and go into that playlist and take it from behind and mold it into something else.

00:43:08 Speaker_04
I think a real one, which would be genuine, because I think it's true, is to say, I'm not sure, but I trust that if it's the wrong thing and I need help, I know you'll be there. Wonderful.

00:43:21 Speaker_04
I think this one is a genuine one, not good, being manipulative or trying to, yeah.

00:43:28 Speaker_01
I think this I can say. Great. What I would like you to watch is that when you approach it from this place, your body is not activated.

00:43:43 Speaker_01
You're not tight and clenched and ready to fight in order to protect yourself, to prevent her from entering when she's seeping through. The purpose of this answer is the boundary, the buffer. the envelope around you.

00:44:04 Speaker_01
And even when she says, tu es sûre, you're sure, you can always say, that sentence of yours has really been instrumental in building my confidence. Now, be clear, none of it is manipulative and none of it is wrong, mistaken.

00:44:24 Speaker_01
In every sentence you make, there is a truth, a truth. There are other truths, but they must be true. And it is. Her questioning of you is in part what has created the drive inside of you. Just curate.

00:44:43 Speaker_01
We can go in many different directions today, but since you like the practical and the usable, the first part here is about getting you unstuck from You're stuck. And you say, what's another way I can deal with this?

00:45:01 Speaker_01
And so instead of getting her off your back, you're going to respond in a way where she's not on your back.

00:45:10 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:45:11 Speaker_04
I think hard thing is whenever I get compared to her. And my first reaction is to be upset and then to question, is this true?

00:45:24 Speaker_04
And I think that's one of the things that is hard to accept sometimes, like part of the anxiety, part of the control or some of those things. When I hear you, just like your mom, I'm like, it drives me nuts.

00:45:36 Speaker_04
And I would like to reach a point where it doesn't really drive me nuts. And I can just think, yeah, those things I took that some, I'm very different and that's okay. Who says that? My partner from time to time.

00:45:52 Speaker_01
He knows how to get to you. Yeah.

00:45:57 Speaker_04
But what makes me upset is the reaction I have, you know, like think, am I really like my mom? Like, would it be that bad to be like my mom?

00:46:07 Speaker_01
And then you have to remember the difference between the raw material and the outcome. you want to find some positive identification. And it's not hard to find, it's absolutely there.

00:46:25 Speaker_01
If you have someone who constantly questions you, you become someone who, like you, this is not always the case, who is A, very, very driven, and two, constantly questioning herself.

00:46:39 Speaker_01
And her questioning herself is sometimes annoying, and sometimes probably a source of her discernment.

00:46:49 Speaker_01
You don't want to turn this into a rosy thing, but you have sources of positive identification if you think about it in a different way than the linear narrow lens. The piece around child-rearing is the perfect example.

00:47:08 Speaker_01
I have a very different philosophy, but I am very convinced about it. I operate from conviction, so does she.

00:47:20 Speaker_01
We have different convictions, but I definitely know that my conviction came from the same raw material as hers, even though I want to do it very differently. Not because it's right, but because it's that way that I want to try it. I see.

00:47:39 Speaker_01
Yeah, and she definitely was always a very

00:47:45 Speaker_04
Um, how to say... She's been a very present mom. Not a perfect one, but she's been there.

00:47:53 Speaker_01
The reason we look for the positive identification is not because you want to turn your perception of your mother upside down. It's because you want to learn to be kinder with the parts inside of you. It's the self-acceptance.

00:48:11 Speaker_01
It's not just accepting her. It's that by seeing her differently, you get to accept you more.

00:48:21 Speaker_04
I've been seeing her from a very negative perspective for a very long time.

00:48:25 Speaker_01
There's a lot of work to do there.

00:48:28 Speaker_01
That's why we focus on the self-acceptance and on a retelling of the story in a way where it's not all black and white, good and bad, but where you get to see that some of those things that you've taken, even though you've landed in a very different place,

00:48:51 Speaker_01
the process that you've engaged with is in part from her. And that's okay. It's actually the way we grow up. Actually just hearing it's okay feels good. Hmm. Thank you. You know why all of this is super important beyond your own learning to accept you?

00:49:19 Speaker_01
It's because at some point your little boy is going to do things you don't like. Welcome to motherhood. And that's the moment because you've already intimated that.

00:49:34 Speaker_01
And if you are into the, you must do my way because I'm busy proving to my mother that my way is the right way. Yeah.

00:49:44 Speaker_04
I would like to free him from this.

00:49:46 Speaker_01
Of course, that's why we're here. I am well aware, but that's why I'm linking this, because this is how this stuff passes on. This is how the intergenerational thread weaves itself.

00:50:02 Speaker_01
You, my boy, need to prove that I'm doing the right thing, because that's what I'm busy telling my mother. This is where I often say, and then he's recruited for a play that he never auditioned for.

00:50:19 Speaker_01
And on this, I like very much, but it's like, what story has he just entered that he didn't apply to be in?

00:50:28 Speaker_04
And to be fair, when you say that, what I hear is also like, it must be nice to have a mom that feels like somewhat comfortable in her own skin. And definitely it wasn't the case for mine.

00:50:38 Speaker_04
I can try to tell him, be free or be happy, you're perfect the way you are. If I don't do that for myself, how can he believe that?

00:50:47 Speaker_01
You got it.

00:50:49 Speaker_04
Good. There it is, 20 more years to go.

00:50:55 Speaker_01
Oh, I have adults, I'm not done. I have a ton to learn. You know, if it helps you to know that... This is going to happen anyway. I live in the same wild as you, in the wilderness together. Just so you know, you do some things very differently.

00:51:18 Speaker_01
And then you realize that you do some things that you had promised yourself you would never do and you say, can't believe. I'm saying this, I'm doing this.

00:51:28 Speaker_01
But instead of just going and thinking, that's exactly what I should do, you then go and you tell them, I really didn't like that I did this or said this, and that's where you become different.

00:51:39 Speaker_01
Not because you avoided the whole thing, but because you were able to take responsibility about it.

00:51:46 Speaker_04
Can I call you back in 10 years or 15?

00:51:49 Speaker_01
We'll have a date. Okay, great.

00:51:52 Speaker_04
Thank you very much.

00:51:58 Speaker_00
If you are a regular listener to Where Should We Begin, you know that Esther loves to end a session asking people to write to her. She wants to know what stayed with them, what prompted new conversations, what worked, what didn't work.

00:52:13 Speaker_00
And in the spirit of following up, a few weeks after the session that you heard this week with the new mom, She sent us a note and she did start a conversation that she really needed to have with Esther's urging.

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So if you are interested in where her story is going, you can follow up at Esther's office hours on Apple subscriptions later this week. ♪

00:52:48 Speaker_00
This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.

00:52:55 Speaker_00
If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther and could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com.

00:53:10 Speaker_00
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

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Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

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And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

00:53:50 Speaker_01
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