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Episode: Ep. 332: Jesse Takeover!

Author: Cal Newport
Duration: 01:39:34

Episode Shownotes

Below are the questions covered in today's episode (with their timestamps). Get your questions answered by Cal! Here’s the link: bit.ly/3U3sTvoVideo from today’s episode: youtube.com/calnewportmedia- Who are Cal’s “must read” writers? [6:03]- Does Cal think he can get better at writing? [13:37]- When does Cal find time for academic papers?

[24:09]- How do you get unstuck? [26:44]- How should students pick a college? [34:04]- What is Cal’s shutdown ritual? [43:00]- Does Cal think about retirement? [48:00]- CAL REACTS: Elon and Twitter [54:30]- Is cal still using his ReMarkable? [1:03:17]- What’s Cal’s post-mortem on his latest book? [1:08:10]FINAL SEGMENT: Checking in on Cal’s New Year Plan [1:26:10]Links:Buy Cal’s latest book, “Slow Productivity” at calnewport.com/slowGet a signed copy of Cal’s “Slow Productivity” at peoplesbooktakoma.com/event/cal-newport/Cal’s monthly book directory: bramses.notion.site/059db2641def4a88988b4d2cee4657ba?washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2024/see-how-elon-musks-online-audience-dwarfs-donald-trumps/?itid=hp_world-biz-tech_p006_f008Thanks to our Sponsors:notion.com/caldrinklmnt.com/deepblinkist.com/deepzbiotics.com/deepThanks to Jesse Miller for production, Jay Kerstens for the intro music, Kieron Rees for the slow productivity music, and Mark Miles for mastering.

Full Transcript

00:00:11 Speaker_01
I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions, the show about cultivating a deep life in a distracted world. So I'm here at my Deep Work HQ, joined as always by my producer, Jesse. This is our episode that airs on the same week as Christmas vacation.

00:00:31 Speaker_01
Traditionally, our numbers are down that week because people are traveling. So Jesse and I decided to have some fun with today's episode. If you're listening and you jump over to the YouTube feed, you'll see we are dressed for the occasion.

00:00:45 Speaker_01
We are wearing literally the finest Christmas costumes that $22 at CVS can buy. So I'm very impressed by how we look. I'll say, Jesse, seeing ourselves on the monitor now really makes me happy.

00:00:58 Speaker_01
I spent all that time earning a doctorate in theoretical computer science from MIT and a full professorship from Georgetown. Really getting my full money's worth from that as I sit here with flashing Christmas lights and a Santa hat on.

00:01:10 Speaker_01
It makes it juicy. I like it. Yeah. Well, I guess I'm really leaning into the sort of respect and maturity of my social standing here. But here's what we decided to do. Jesse, take over.

00:01:22 Speaker_01
So the bulk of the episode is going to be Jesse asking the questions that he has always wished that someone would ask me on the show. I don't know how many hundreds of these episodes you've been here for. Not all 332, but probably at least 250.

00:01:36 Speaker_01
A decent amount. So you've heard questions from all around the world. You've read questions from our listeners and our readers from everywhere. So today, Jesse gets a chance to ask the questions he's always wanted to hear me answer.

00:01:49 Speaker_01
And then in the final segment, also by Jesse's request, I'm going to dive into my quarterly plan. So what is my plan for the new year ahead? How am I structuring it? What have I changed about this?

00:02:00 Speaker_01
In particular, I've made some changes to the structure of this document based on the work I'm doing on my new book, The Deep Life. So we'll kind of get in the weeds about the semester quarterly plan that I have in place for the new year.

00:02:10 Speaker_01
So stick around for the end for that. Quick update, Jesse, after lots of feedback from the last episode, I can tell you the answer we were looking for was insidious. So that is how you pronounce the word insidious.

00:02:26 Speaker_01
I don't know why I've had this problem with this specific word. I mix it with deciduous and I call it insidious and I know that's wrong. It's insidious. So thank you for the roughly and I'm checking my notes here.

00:02:38 Speaker_00
Did somebody call you to tell you that or did somebody spell it out in an email?

00:02:42 Speaker_01
I got like 7,000 emails insidious. So like the way a dictionary spells words. Yeah. Um, there's a lot of like a hyphenating it and, It's not deciduous. So there we go. We've been, I've been enjoying this.

00:02:57 Speaker_01
I don't think anyone else is, but I have been enjoying spending 10 seconds at the beginning of every episode bragging about my new book, Slow Predictivity. There's, you know, end of the year, so there's various lists or whatever.

00:03:06 Speaker_01
My brag for this week, Jesse, it's a little random, but I liked it. The Seattle Public Library System announced their most popular books of 2024. Slow Predictivity was their number four most popular nonfiction book in their system for the 2024.

00:03:23 Speaker_01
So I always said, Seattle, they know what they're doing. They're fine critics of books over there. As Seattle goes, there goes the nation when it comes to book habits. So there you go. There's my slow productivity brag.

00:03:38 Speaker_01
Also, I mentioned last time and I'll mention again, get a signed copy of that book for a New Year's gift. Forget Christmas gifts, New Year's gifts, gifts that are focused on improvement in the new year.

00:03:48 Speaker_01
Get a copy of Slow Productivity for Yourself for a friend that is signed. You can get those through People's Book. Tacoma.com so people's book in Tacoma.

00:03:55 Speaker_01
I was just over there the other day signing more copies These will cut you know They can't obviously get into you by Christmas by time you hear this is the day before But we can get them out pretty quick.

00:04:03 Speaker_01
So order a signed copy for a new year a New Year's gift, okay So vacations coming up. We're recording this right before the the week you're disappearing somewhere warm. Yeah, I'm going to Mexico. Oh, that's the way I'm going to New Jersey.

00:04:18 Speaker_01
It's almost as exciting as Mexico. Check out some drones. I, I'm going up there to hunt drones. Yeah. I'm going to get to the bottom of this.

00:04:26 Speaker_01
Uh, clearly it's aliens because the one thing we know is if aliens saw faster than light travel and made their way all the way to earth, that the thing to be very careful about is having the correct FAA approved lights on their spacecraft as they go around.

00:04:40 Speaker_01
Cause I've been hearing this like the, you know, there's a couple, I've been following the story a little bit. Um, It's a mixture of things, probably new regulations that allowed drones to fly at night, which wasn't allowed before.

00:04:54 Speaker_01
There's potentially specific drone testing happening in New Jersey. There was sort of an announcement about this months ago. Like, hey, we have this partnership for these. These bases have set up a quarter. These aren't military bases to test drones.

00:05:07 Speaker_01
The initial drones they were seeing had running lights, FAA-approved running lights, so this is probably testing of it. And there's just more drones out than we realized, and now they can fly at night. You see them more.

00:05:16 Speaker_01
And once the story became a story, I think you just have more people flying drones, because you're like, yeah, this is awesome. Let's get in on this. And you're getting a lot of photos of people zooming in on light sources.

00:05:26 Speaker_01
If you zoom in on light sources, like a star, too much with a telephoto lens, you get this weird, hazy effect. It looks like a ball of energy. That's all just people focusing with their telephoto lenses on a light source. Anyways, I'm going down there.

00:05:40 Speaker_01
I have a net. I have my shotgun. I'm going to catch some drones. I guess it's up there from DC. This should be good. All right. So anyways, we got Jesse Takeover episode, all the questions Jesse had wanted to ask. Let's get into it.

00:05:56 Speaker_01
All right, Jesse, you're in control of the show for this holiday episode. You ask the questions you want to hear. What do you want to hear about first?

00:06:03 Speaker_00
Hi, first question. Who are your must-read writers, both authors, journalists, and reporters that are still alive? How do you get notified when they produce content and how quickly do you get around to reading it?

00:06:14 Speaker_00
On a similar note, who are your favorite writers of all time?

00:06:18 Speaker_01
I mean, at this point, what I mainly do is read and reread Jane Patterson's Eruption, his continuation of the Michael Crichton concept about a volcano book. Now, serious question. I can't do must reads. I can't do favorites.

00:06:36 Speaker_01
I have a hard time rank ordering things I like. I think there might even be a word for this. I mean, I don't know what it is. I'm making up a word or to phobia.

00:06:44 Speaker_01
from ordinal for ranking or ordering and phobia for fear of or dislike of, I just have a real block with things I like trying to order them. And I've talked about this on the show before.

00:06:57 Speaker_01
It was one of the reasons why I did not sign up for Facebook when Facebook became the first social media platform to have wide-scale adoption because early Facebook was built on lists.

00:07:06 Speaker_01
Your profile was favorite books, favorite movies, favorite quotes, and I have orthophobia. Like, I can't do that, and so I don't wanna bother with this.

00:07:14 Speaker_01
There is, however, I think something deeper in this question, which is deeply applicable, which is this idea of how do you figure out when an author you like has something to read? Are you on list? Did you get notifications?

00:07:28 Speaker_01
How do you know when there's something out that you might want to read? And here, I want to maybe offer a mindset shift for the listener. There's two ways to think about the reading life. the life where you read lots of books and articles, etc.

00:07:43 Speaker_01
One way is more of the negative avoidance approach, which is I'm afraid of missing something good. There's something out there that's good that I would like or I should read, but I missed it. So there's a fear of missing out approach to it.

00:07:56 Speaker_01
The flip side of that mindset is the joy and serendipity of I found something good to read. Isn't that exciting?

00:08:04 Speaker_01
And I think a long time ago, I realized in the world of nonfiction, which is primarily the world in which I do most of my reading, there's more good authors and more books than I'm ever going to read.

00:08:13 Speaker_01
And instead of seeing that as a downside, Oh, I'm going to miss all this great stuff. I see it as this positive side. It's never going to be hard to find something that's going to delight me. There's so much stuff out there that's good.

00:08:22 Speaker_01
The bit, the joy or the benefit is in like constantly finding stuff you like that's interesting, that challenges you. And so with that in mind I'm not super, specific in how I find what I'm gonna read. I hear about things, I see things.

00:08:37 Speaker_01
I'll walk through bookstores, right? I was just at People's Book yesterday here in Tacoma Park, just looking at the new book tables. Hey, who has something new out that I might wanna hear about? People mention things online. I read book reviews, right?

00:08:48 Speaker_01
I'll read like the New York Times book review. I'll see what books the Wall Street Journal is reviewing, especially in like the business space, they're pretty good on that. I'll see authors come up in podcasts.

00:08:58 Speaker_01
Like I've said this before, when it comes to interview podcast,

00:09:01 Speaker_01
I follow guest, not host, so there might be a huge number of interview podcasts I might sort of scroll through and see what's on, not because I will listen to whatever they do, but to see if they have someone on that I'm interested in.

00:09:13 Speaker_01
And so I might hear an interesting author come up on, you know, a friend of mine show or something like this and then listen to it and say, Oh, that sounds fascinating. Okay. Maybe I want to read that book.

00:09:22 Speaker_01
So I'm discovering I'll often, I have a pretty big library. I'll just wander through my library and say, Oh, here's a book in here. I picked up at some point meaning to read, I didn't get around to it. Now it's really appealing to me.

00:09:33 Speaker_01
Let's rock and roll with it. So I don't sweat missing stuff that's good. There's so much good stuff out there that I'm not worried about not having something to read. So that being said, there's authors I really like.

00:09:47 Speaker_01
I'm often looking for a combination of an author I like and a topic I like. And if it's not both, I might skip it. Right. So I don't know to be specific. Yeah. I've long liked Sebastian Younger.

00:09:58 Speaker_01
His adventure nonfiction realistic nonfiction book was, of course, world class beginning with the perfect storm.

00:10:03 Speaker_01
Then he switched over in the last decade or so to more of these like smaller cultural critique type books, which tend to be about mismatches in like human wiring and modern society. I really like tribe. I really like freedom.

00:10:15 Speaker_01
And so if I see Junger has a book out and he has some sort of interesting cultural critique about these mismatches, like I'm going to be on board. But he had a recent book out that was his reflections on mortality and dying.

00:10:27 Speaker_01
And I didn't pick that one up. I was like, I like this author, but I'm not really into that topic right now. So that combination is not catching my attention.

00:10:34 Speaker_01
You know, it was like this with David McCullough, who was one of my favorite historical nonfiction writers, if not my favorite historical nonfiction writer. His style is fantastic.

00:10:43 Speaker_01
He's the master of taking the archived written word, typically in correspondence, and using this to recreate in vivid detail realistic characters from history. So he brings people alive by using their own written words.

00:10:56 Speaker_01
So if I see him plus a historical time or topic I'm interested in, I was all on board. But if it was him and not a topic or area I was interested in, I might skip it. Like I didn't read his book about Americans in Paris.

00:11:10 Speaker_01
It just wasn't as interesting to me as his sort of presidential books or colonial era books. So that's the way I do this. And sometimes I won't know anything about the author, but the idea seems so interesting. I'll say, let's give this a try.

00:11:21 Speaker_01
I'm reading right now this fantastic, crazy book. It might be the only book this guy ever wrote. And he's basically recreating I've mentioned this before, Jesse, but he builds from scratch.

00:11:34 Speaker_01
mathematics from first principles in a way that's more conversational but motivated. So he doesn't just say, here's how you take a derivative of a polynomial. He works from first principles. How would you take a derivative of a polynomial?

00:11:46 Speaker_01
He derives all the stuff you learn in math class all the way through multidimensional calculus, including trigonometry, all the major rules of algebra. It's a crazy book, and it's fantastic, and it's weird and brilliant.

00:11:55 Speaker_01
I don't think anyone even knew about it, and it sort of disappeared. And that was just topic first, and I didn't know anything about this author. So I don't know. I love books. I love nonfiction books. There's no shortage of good books to read.

00:12:06 Speaker_01
You'll miss most of the good books. And the way I see it is that's okay. What's the name of that math book? Burn Math Class. Oh, okay, yeah. Bad title, right? Burn Math Class, a weird, you know, it was on a smaller press. I'll talk about it.

00:12:23 Speaker_01
I'm not done with it yet, so I guess it'll be, it'll end up on the January book list. So you have two copies of that, right? I lost the first one.

00:12:30 Speaker_00
I have it.

00:12:30 Speaker_01
Oh, you have it. I bought another one.

00:12:33 Speaker_00
Yeah, I've been reading it. I forgot to return it.

00:12:34 Speaker_01
I looked for it. I was like, ah, whatever. I'll just buy another one. That's a cool book. It's a cool book. I'm in multivariable calculus, which I took. I used to be good at, but I don't remember. But he derives it all from scratch.

00:12:49 Speaker_01
It's all done in late tech. I mean, only like math and science people know this, but he clearly wrote the whole book using the layout software we use for scientific papers. So it's not even formatted. It wasn't reformatted for book format.

00:13:01 Speaker_01
He just wrote it with the same software you use to write a math paper. A cool book though. I mean, crazy, but I wish more people would write crazy books like that. Needs a better title, needs a better cover.

00:13:11 Speaker_01
Maybe we should buy the rights for it and like re-release it. Remember like Ferris was doing that for all of you remember this years ago, Tim Ferris was doing this. He was like, I'm going to buy the rights for books.

00:13:22 Speaker_01
I really like, I hope he would buy like the audio rights and rerecord them and publish them and use his platform to help push them. And then he realized, okay, that's like a really low margin business, but it was cool. He was buying rights for a while.

00:13:33 Speaker_01
All right. What's your second question?

00:13:36 Speaker_00
All right. Next question. Writing is a big part of your life. When you compare your writing to your favorite writers, do you think their level is achievable or is it similar to your MIT experience with certain folks having extreme brain horsepower?

00:13:50 Speaker_01
It's a good question and a tough question. To give context for the listener, I've talked about this with theoretical computer science, my primary academic field or my original academic field. there was differences.

00:14:04 Speaker_01
It was very hard work to get better, but there was some point where I realized I'm not at my 100% because to get to your 100% is very difficult just in terms of the sheer intensity of work required.

00:14:17 Speaker_01
But I realized my 100% was going to fall short of the greats in the field. And there was the epsilon between, you know, so if you can't be a great, the difference between being like very good and good was somewhat diminishing returns.

00:14:33 Speaker_01
I mean, I had a professorship at a good university. It was respected in my field, easily got my promotions. And so I at some point was thinking to go all in on getting to my 100 percent.

00:14:45 Speaker_01
which basically in theoretical computer science means you got to read a lot more papers.

00:14:49 Speaker_01
That sounds casual, but it's actually very hard to read and understand a theory paper because it's complex math that's summarized and you have to reconstruct complicated math from scratch. It just really is like an all out intellectual effort.

00:15:03 Speaker_01
It can take days and days just to understand one paper. You got to do that all the time. If you do that all the time, you can get yourself to 100% and I still think it would have been short of the very top people.

00:15:13 Speaker_01
And so I pulled back from trying to go 100%. That's a good question. I'm probably better at nonfiction writing nationally speaking, I guess, than theoretical computer science, I guess. So maybe I'll start there. I mean, I'm a good theoretician, right?

00:15:32 Speaker_01
I mean, I trained at the top theory group. MIT's theory group was a good group. I have a good professorship. I have a good H index. I have a lot of citations. But it's a smaller group of people to compare yourself against. There's more nonfiction writers.

00:15:46 Speaker_01
I just guess the reason why I say that is my national reputation as a nonfiction writer is probably better. and some of the accolades of nonfiction, right?

00:15:55 Speaker_01
Like writing for the New Yorker, maybe that's in academia, maybe that's the equivalent of having a position at like a top 10 CS program, right?

00:16:06 Speaker_01
The New York Times bestsellers, the award list, maybe that's the academic equivalent of, though I've won some awards for my academic work, but winning some more like higher level awards, being in like the, you know, your work showed up in science.

00:16:20 Speaker_01
and not just in, like, the journal that's specific to your field. So I think I'm a little better, nationally speaking, in nonfiction than I am in theory. But I'm not one of the best nonfiction writers, right?

00:16:32 Speaker_01
I'm not writing features for The New Yorker and the magazine. I'm not up for national book awards or Pulitzers, right? I mean, I'm not at that echelon of, from a craft perspective, just the very best writers.

00:16:46 Speaker_01
I make best of the year lists, but typically places that are considering business books or considering nonfiction whereas like the New York Times is top 100 like that's not a place I'm going to show up.

00:16:58 Speaker_01
I'm not going to show up in the New Yorker's best books of the year. So in theory there's higher craft I could get to. I don't know how high I would get if I pushed for 100 percent in writing.

00:17:09 Speaker_01
I think just like in CS, I'm at that 75%, which took a decade to get here.

00:17:13 Speaker_01
It took really hard work, don't get me wrong, but to write the very best writing I could do, I would really need to do it full-time all out to get to that 100%, and I don't know where that would land.

00:17:23 Speaker_01
One of the reasons why I'm not doing that, as long as we're psychoanalyzing my career decisions here, which is interesting to me, one of the reasons I'm not doing that is that it might not be the most productive thing for me to do from a career success or impacts perspective, right?

00:17:39 Speaker_01
Like really my skill, the thing I think that I have that's more unique or my unique advantage is actually idea generation. I'm an idea generator. I can make sense of information and come up with interesting ways to think about things.

00:17:55 Speaker_01
I'm very good at consolidating things into interesting ideas and frameworks. I've always been good at this. I just sort of see the world this way. That's well-served by my current writing ability.

00:18:05 Speaker_01
Like, I'm a pretty good writer, which means when I write about idea stuff, it has a little bit of a gloss of it being maybe a little bit smarter than like a standard advice or self-help, but not off-the-charts like literary nonfiction.

00:18:21 Speaker_01
That's probably like the right place, right? This sort of smart self-help balance I've found where I have ideas that can give you

00:18:30 Speaker_01
specific action, but I'm writing about it more New Yorker-y style, like smarter than you would get in just a standard advice book that you would pick up. That seems to be like a combination. That's a lane I've created, which I think is a good lane.

00:18:43 Speaker_01
So actually becoming better at nonfiction writing wouldn't help that lane. Personally, though, I'm interested in continuing to grow my craft. So, man, this is an interesting question, Jesse. This is like an interesting discussion.

00:18:53 Speaker_01
that you could have in general and talk about achievement is that gap between 75% of your capacity and 100% because there is a huge effort differential between 75% and 100%.

00:19:03 Speaker_01
And it's a calculus that in any sort of high achieving field you have to do is my 100% going to justify that effort differential or not?

00:19:15 Speaker_01
And it's a complicated question because your 100% is where you land on that hierarchy of skills and like most people's 100% doesn't land at the top.

00:19:25 Speaker_01
And so often like your 75%, which again is very hard, you have to focus and it takes decades, but your 75% is often the right strategy with high achievement. You're getting the most bang for your buck.

00:19:36 Speaker_01
It's a complicated topic that I don't think we discuss with enough complexity in our culture in general. I don't know. Maybe I let me summarize it. I could probably be a little bit better at writing, but I don't know. I don't know how much better.

00:19:48 Speaker_00
Yeah. So in the time being, like in the next 10 years, you'll hopefully be a better writer than you are now. Right.

00:19:54 Speaker_01
Yeah. But I, I will get better. Yeah.

00:19:57 Speaker_00
The question is like, is it like baseball? Like I keep on asking you this, is there eventually you kind of go through your prime?

00:20:06 Speaker_01
I it's a, yeah, it's a hard question. I don't know, probably.

00:20:13 Speaker_01
See, the thing about baseball, and my former late editor who edited So Good They Can't Ignore You and actually tragically died a couple of years ago, he used to tell me this because he was a professional baseball player, didn't make it to the majors, but was in the professional minor league systems.

00:20:35 Speaker_01
The thing is, he said, in baseball, everyone is ... Everyone is gunning for their 100 percent, to use my analogy. So everyone is doing all the training you can possibly do to maximize your potential, so everything just eventually sorts out.

00:20:47 Speaker_01
I'm a single-A player. I'm an instructional league player. I'm a double-A player. Maybe I'm like a triple-A or quadruple-A style utility player, or I'm a major leaguer, or I'm an all-star.

00:20:58 Speaker_01
You're going to fall somewhere on that scale, and you're going to know it by like 27. because everyone is going all out. And so you're probably not going to have changes happen. Like, obviously, you'll get, you know, get in the weeds.

00:21:10 Speaker_01
You'll get a sort of mid career. Daniel Murphy changes his swing to be more launch angle and suddenly becomes one of the best hitters in baseball. But for the most part, it kind of it kind of shakes out most other non-athletic fields.

00:21:22 Speaker_01
People don't push it that far. And so what I'm trying to figure out is. Is your 75 percent sort of indicate Hey, if my 75% is this good, then I just add this much to get what my 100% would be, or is it a completely different game?

00:21:37 Speaker_01
Like maybe in writing, like nonfiction writing, if you're a pretty good writer and you go all out, you can get great. Maybe anyone can do it. I just don't know.

00:21:46 Speaker_01
You know, like a lot of what makes great nonfiction writing great is it tends to be on the research side. And that's something that's pretty replicatable. It's just time.

00:21:56 Speaker_01
It's, you know, OK, what makes like a David Grahn long form piece for the New Yorker good? So David Grahn, who wrote Killers of the Flower Moon, and what makes his like long form pieces good? He spends a huge amount of time.

00:22:12 Speaker_01
just immersing himself in the topic and the people and he just follows them and he gets all these notes and he goes into the archives and he spends all these times and reads all these things and just immerses himself in that world, typically puts himself into some sort of adventure as well.

00:22:25 Speaker_01
He brings those two things together. That's just like a lot of time. Right? Like often what differentiates like a great nonfiction writer from a good nonfiction writer is like they're willing to do the time.

00:22:35 Speaker_01
They're willing to use the Robert Caro term, turn every page in the archive. Like I'm going to read everything. I'm going to just sit and craft. Ronan Farrow was great at this.

00:22:44 Speaker_01
Like I'm just going to, like a bulldog, cultivate these sources and just get and go and get and go. And some of that is a time game. Some of that is an instinct game, but I don't know.

00:22:56 Speaker_01
That's what I think is different about athletics and riding is that like if you're willing to put in the time, yeah, it's like a pain tolerance thing. I am willing to spend five years on this.

00:23:06 Speaker_01
It's going to be a better book than if you spend two, but you know, at some point you're right. It's got to level out like just your, your, your instinct for the written word and rhythm.

00:23:14 Speaker_01
It's just, it's going to, your, your quality will land where it will land. But I mean, you can have huge successes like Walter Isaacson. He puts in the time. It's not that his writing style is – there's something magnificent about it.

00:23:27 Speaker_01
He just – he's just super clear. He does the work. He goes to the archives. He gets the important information. He sees the through lines are important and he writes with a real clarity.

00:23:36 Speaker_01
which is like a little bit different than David McCullough who had like a real skill for capturing the essence of a historical figure using the written word, quoting the right things.

00:23:47 Speaker_01
Like he had this super empathetic brain that could inhabit the brain of the subject by just reading everything that person had written and he kind of understands what gets to the core of that person and what they're thinking and then can pick out those examples and like there's just like a real skill in there.

00:24:02 Speaker_01
So I don't know. It's a great question. It's one I struggle with.

00:24:08 Speaker_00
Next question. When do you fit in your writing blocks for academic papers? Do these replace your morning blocks for book and article writing?

00:24:15 Speaker_01
I mean, nowadays, writing is writing. Like, that's my main intellectual activity is producing words on paper. that other people are gonna find interesting, important, or impactful.

00:24:26 Speaker_01
And so whether it's a book, or a New Yorker article, or an academic article, I just wanna write. And I try to write every morning, and then I schedule more writing blocks if I need it, depending on what's going on.

00:24:38 Speaker_01
And what happens in those blocks just depends on what I'm working on. So if I'm heavy in book mode, those will be book blocks. If I'm crunching a deadline for an academic paper, then those will be academic blocks.

00:24:48 Speaker_01
Sometimes I'll mix them, but I try not to. I'm a big believer in milestones. So if I have a huge project like writing a book, and then I have like a New Yorker piece I want to write, I just milestone things.

00:24:59 Speaker_01
Like, great, let me get to this milestone on the book, finishing a draft of this chapter. Then I can put that aside. and move to like this New Yorker piece. So what's my milestone there? Full rough draft, I get to my editor.

00:25:10 Speaker_01
So I'm all in on that till I get to that milestone. Now I'm waiting to hear back from my editor. I go back and say my milestone for the book is going to be like a full editing pass to this chapter.

00:25:17 Speaker_01
And like that's what I'll work on for four or five days. OK, now I'm going back. So I milestone my work and the things that can happen within like roughly a week. And so I'm not switching. I try not to switch back and forth within the same day.

00:25:30 Speaker_01
But I also just don't differentiate that much anymore like I used to. I mean, it used to be when I was struggling for computer science promotions like that's what I was focused on. It was I have to make sure I'm publishing this many academic papers.

00:25:42 Speaker_01
All right. Now I have like my book writing. And I got to figure out like when I'm going to take on book contracts and like when I'm going to do that book writing. And these are two very separate things. Now it's all mixed together for me.

00:25:53 Speaker_01
I just think writing is writing is writing. I try to do as much as possible. Sometimes a year I'm doing more than others. I'm milestone so I can be mono focused on one thing at any given day. It probably it feels slower in the moment.

00:26:04 Speaker_01
That's one of my ideas for my book Slow Productivity. Over time it produces just as much. I didn't write today, actually. So well, you had a doctor's appointment. Yeah.

00:26:13 Speaker_00
So, um, so you write this afternoon.

00:26:17 Speaker_01
I had to take today as a non-writing day because I have a meeting after this and a board meeting tonight. And so I had the mentally, I had the mentally prepare myself yesterday that just, this is a non-writing day.

00:26:28 Speaker_01
Cause otherwise I get so frustrated that I'm not writing. I break a Christmas break can be rough for me. I got to get writing in or I get really antsy. It's the, this might, someone took away my cigarettes type of thing.

00:26:42 Speaker_00
All right, next question. What steps do you take when completely stuck on a project? For example, if you optimize a project for many months and have seen only minimal improvement in minor metrics, but the overall goal isn't getting any closer?

00:26:56 Speaker_01
You know, I was just talking about this on an interview I was recording last night for someone else's podcast. They were asking about this, you know, sticking with

00:27:04 Speaker_01
A project for a long amount of time has all these advantages I write about in Slow Productivity, like stuff that's cool takes time and you got to stay focused on it for a long amount of time.

00:27:12 Speaker_01
And they're wondering about, but what if it's not going well? You know, if you're thinking it's going to take five years for me to get good at something, what happens if after four years it turns out that's not your thing? if you wasted four years.

00:27:23 Speaker_01
So I was thinking about this problem and a book came to mind. I remember reading this book. This probably would have been, if I had to guess, 2007, maybe it was 2009, but I think this was 2007.

00:27:35 Speaker_01
I have a, I don't have a photographic memory, but I have a memory for books just for, for whatever reason, I can remember where I am when I've read most books. And I read this book in the airport.

00:27:45 Speaker_01
We were flying to a trip to Argentina and I was reading this book in, I think George Bush international airport in Texas where we were connecting for the flight. Seth Godin's book, the dip. gets at this exact issue.

00:27:59 Speaker_01
He says, OK, here's the cool thing or not cool thing. The critical question when you're working on a long term important project, when things start to go poorly, like you stop making progress or opportunities are not emerging or you feel stuck.

00:28:13 Speaker_01
How do you tell the difference between being in what he calls a dip? Which means you want to make it through this dip and on the other side you're going to keep going up. How do you tell the difference between a dip and a cul-de-sac?

00:28:22 Speaker_01
Cul-de-sac means that you're just done. You're just stuck. And like what you need to do is quit. And this is not working. You need to do something else. And I think he correctly points out differentiating between dips and cul-de-sacs.

00:28:34 Speaker_01
is the key to tackling a type of long-term projects that ultimately you can build really cool lives on top of. The problem is, I don't remember that book giving really solid technical advice for how you make that differentiation.

00:28:48 Speaker_01
It was more like he was saying this matters, there's a difference, it was giving you vocabulary. Figuring out how to tell the difference is one of the key under-discussed elements of long term performance.

00:28:59 Speaker_01
So what I said on this podcast interview I was doing last night is you want to look for indications of progress. You know, sometimes this is a skill.

00:29:08 Speaker_01
I'm trying to get better at something so I can just get the indication I'm getting better at this skill. Sometimes the indications have to come from the opportunities that are being afforded you on the other side.

00:29:16 Speaker_01
I'm getting more offers or opportunities or more clients or more incoming. So it could be your internal skill that you can measure as getting better or your external value is being validated as getting better.

00:29:27 Speaker_01
But you're looking for these indicators of progress. If they're stuck for a non-trivial amount of time, you need to rethink process. All right, let me go back and rethink process. How am I trying to get better? So I'm a writer trying to get better.

00:29:42 Speaker_01
I'm kind of stuck. I'm just now, I'm writing this newsletter. The numbers are low. The numbers are stuck. Nothing else is happening. I need to go back to the drawing board and rethink the process I'm using to try to get better.

00:29:53 Speaker_01
That's the first thing to do. Rethink your process has to happen from an evidence-based perspective. It is very tempting when working on long-term projects to write a story about what you want to be true. about what's important for getting better here.

00:30:09 Speaker_01
This is what I want to be true, that if I just keep writing this substack and I do it every week and I'm very careful about putting screenshots of the essay on Twitter in the optimized form after they come out and I do all the social media stuff right, that eventually something will click and this will take off and I'll make a full-time living off it.

00:30:26 Speaker_01
We tell ourselves stories about what we want to be true. But the reality could be very different, right?

00:30:31 Speaker_01
And you might, you might get a completely different story from reality, which says, well, wait a second, writing a sub stack where you don't already have a reputation in a subject is not going to do anything.

00:30:40 Speaker_01
What you need to do is try to build up a footprint in like the journalistic world on way to getting a book.

00:30:45 Speaker_01
And this is difficult because you got to make pitches and they're going to get rejected and it's going to be hard work and you don't want it to be true, but it is. So you have to go back and get evidence.

00:30:53 Speaker_01
What, what really works in this pursuit I'm doing, talk to people who know, and then upgrade your process or update your process to reflect this reality.

00:31:02 Speaker_01
If this still doesn't return results, like, okay, I'm doing the things that you're supposed to do. I was reality checked. Here's how people make progress in this world. And you're still not getting indicators of progress.

00:31:14 Speaker_01
That's your sign you might be in a cul-de-sac and you need to change the map of where you're going. And maybe it's a small change or maybe it's a drastic change. Like I'm just not going to go this way in general. Right. So I have seen this a lot.

00:31:27 Speaker_01
I've become more attuned to this in the things that I do that have been relatively successful. I have become attuned to the degree to which there's a survivorship bias and which it's easy to say, okay, here's what I did.

00:31:39 Speaker_01
So if you just do that, you'll be fine. And I've realized over time, no, no, some of these things are really hard and you don't want to get stuck in a cul-de-sac because most people will. So like, let's consider book writing.

00:31:50 Speaker_01
I used to always tell people, yeah, like write books. It's not so hard. Like here's, it's not too hard to sell a book and then you'll build up your audience and it's like really cool. And like, it wasn't that hard. Everyone should write books.

00:32:02 Speaker_01
And then over time I realized, no, no, there's some survivorship bias there. It's hard to sell a book. It's really hard to get a book to actually sell to people. There's luck, there's timing, there's topic, there's skill.

00:32:12 Speaker_01
Like for most people who go down the writing path, like you're going to get stuck. pretty quickly. Same thing with podcasting, right? It's easy to say, this is not technically that hard what we do here.

00:32:25 Speaker_01
I could tell you what we do here, and here's what it requires, and technically here's what we do week to week. But I've realized like, oh, it's really hard to have a podcast be successful.

00:32:36 Speaker_01
And it depends on lots of things, including like I've, I've discovered, uh, having a national reputation or brand outside of what you're doing with the podcast, you have a built in audience, you have a sort of built in trust or social validation that you're someone that people should listen to.

00:32:51 Speaker_01
Like all this is really hard. So actually like most people, you know, I know who have tried podcasts, it's just kind of dead ended. They technically did all the right things. There's just no audience coming.

00:33:00 Speaker_01
There's no obvious thing to do to make that audience bigger. It's like, oh, this is like a difficult path to thread and like actually it's not going to work for most people and you don't want to waste too many years trying to follow it.

00:33:10 Speaker_01
So I've become more attuned to this recently that you want to look for indicators of progress. You need evidence based plans for this. You can update your plan with new evidence if it's not working.

00:33:20 Speaker_01
If it's still not working after that, then it might be a cul-de-sac, not a dip. And you want to consider putting your efforts towards something that's more likely to succeed for you, right?

00:33:29 Speaker_01
Where you're building off of, I have this pre-existing ability or platform. I already have this credential that makes it much more likely I'll succeed going this path. Like you might need to reality check the path.

00:33:40 Speaker_01
So I've become more curmudgeonly about this, Jesse, about general stuff. I used to be like, everyone should just do everything I'm doing. It's fine. And I've recognized

00:33:47 Speaker_01
I've been very selective and I've really leveraged preexisting cultural assets to try to make other things successful. And it's a lot more like fragile and contingent than maybe I would have realized before.

00:34:02 Speaker_00
Okay. Next question. What criteria do many high school students fail to consider when selecting a college? On a related note, do you think tuition costs for private schools will exceed 150 K per year in say 15 years?

00:34:17 Speaker_01
I mean, I think students in the American context, and this is different than – very different than other countries where higher education is like largely free. In the American context, I think students probably overemphasize fit.

00:34:31 Speaker_01
So it's like a uniquely American thing that I want this to feel of the college to be right, which often means physically what it feels like, like where it is in the country, what the buildings feel like, etc. It probably makes sense.

00:34:46 Speaker_01
Like the strategy that probably makes sense for most people is. Go to your state school.

00:34:51 Speaker_01
That's going to be the best bang for your buck unless you can get into like a really elite school that can open up substantially more opportunities because of its eliteness.

00:34:59 Speaker_01
But avoid that big middle ground of non-elite schools that are very expensive that you're shopping on fit. It's probably not a great investment in money, you know. That's probably the best strategy.

00:35:10 Speaker_01
You know, go to state school unless you can get into, you know, a Georgetown or better or something like this. There are, of course, schools where fit really matters if you're a super math whiz. try to go to MIT. It's great for that.

00:35:22 Speaker_01
If you're a music whiz, you really wanna try to go to Juilliard, right? If you're film savant, you can get into USC, you should go to USC. But for the most part, we probably think too much about, is this like a fit for me?

00:35:36 Speaker_01
Because honestly, like, what does a 17-year-old know? What are they basing this decision off of? They had a good visit to a school. They met someone nice. Like, great, that's where I wanna go. The cost thing, I hope it doesn't get to 150.

00:35:49 Speaker_01
I hope tuition doesn't get there. I think there's going to be some emergent reverse pressure on tuition prices in schools as like more alternatives.

00:36:00 Speaker_01
There's some alternatives that are emerging, independent schools like the University of Austin, Barry Weiss's set up down there in Texas.

00:36:08 Speaker_01
There's some of these other options that are emerging which might start to put some pressure on runaway cost because there's going to be these alternatives that emerge that have more constrained cost.

00:36:19 Speaker_01
So there's a kind of a tragedy of the commons that goes on now where just all schools increase their cost. All these private schools, like, well, as long as we all do it, it's fine because you have no other option. It's all very expensive.

00:36:30 Speaker_01
So hopefully there's some sort of capped pressure. that comes in to prevent it from getting bigger. I say this as a father of three kids who are gonna have to go to college.

00:36:40 Speaker_01
The only advantage I have of private school getting more expensive is, you know, as a professor, I have a tuition benefit, which is key to the cost of Georgetown's current tuition.

00:36:53 Speaker_01
So there's like a certain, they will pay a certain percentage of Georgetown's tuition towards any school that my kids go to.

00:37:00 Speaker_01
And as it stands now, because private schools are so expensive, a third or whatever the percentage is of Georgetown's tuition is all of the University of Maryland's tuition.

00:37:10 Speaker_01
So actually, the best case scenario is Maryland keeps its prices low and then Georgetown gets really expensive. In fact, if Georgetown can get like five times more expensive than any other college, I'm set.

00:37:22 Speaker_01
I do it because I'll be able to cover anything else. But yeah, it's big. And the gap between state and private is getting big as well. States have done pretty well most places at keeping the cost kind of reasonable.

00:37:34 Speaker_01
But now you have this big gap that's opening, which we're noticing as we're doing college savings, because if you say for a state university,

00:37:42 Speaker_01
But your kid – like in a 529, but your kid wants to go to a private university, you don't have nearly enough money.

00:37:47 Speaker_01
But if you're saving in a tax-advantaged account like a 529 for a private university and your kid goes to a state university, you've way over-saved and you have too much money in that account. You're going to have to pay penalties to get out.

00:37:59 Speaker_01
So that gap is kind of complicated when it comes to tuition saving.

00:38:04 Speaker_00
I guess it would somewhat vary too in terms of selection process if you're being like recruited to play a sport.

00:38:10 Speaker_01
Yep. Sports its own thing, obviously. Right. Uh, you're deciding like what team you want to play for. Uh, yeah, same thing. And this was mentioning like specific things. I, I'm a violin whiz. You want to, you want to go to Juilliard, you know, et cetera.

00:38:24 Speaker_01
Um, so we'll see. I still got some time before I, before I have to worry about it. I wrote a book about college admissions. my least known book, but it is out there. So I used to know a lot about this.

00:38:35 Speaker_01
Jesse, I figure we should do a quick ad break before we keep going with Jesse Takeover. Want to talk first about our, now becoming a longtime sponsor, it's a product I really like, and that is our friends at Notion.

00:38:48 Speaker_01
You've heard me talk about Notion before. It's a tool that helps you combine your notes, docs, and projects into one space that's simple and beautifully designed.

00:38:56 Speaker_01
We have worked with various Notion systems throughout our time here on the podcast, and it's always been a great time saver. You can build these custom systems for accessing and viewing your information. You know, I'm a big process guy.

00:39:08 Speaker_01
Notion lets you build your own

00:39:10 Speaker_01
Information systems the for whatever processes you're using so whether you're talking about like organizing your own tasks or the whole information flow of a business notion can help you do it what I want to talk about today is they have been integrating AI into their tool in a way that I think is very commendable and

00:39:30 Speaker_01
You know, right now, when people think about the current crop of A.I. tools, they think about having to switch back and forth from like this program they're using over to the A.I.

00:39:38 Speaker_01
tool and maybe copy something into a text box and get an answer, go back to the tool they're using. Not Notion. It combines A.I. right into their system. Notion A.I.

00:39:51 Speaker_01
helps you work faster, write better, think bigger and do tasks that normally take you hours and seconds, all without having to jump out of the Notion ecosystem and come back to it. It is all

00:40:00 Speaker_01
integrated, you can leverage this power across all of your notes and docs without having to switch to something different.

00:40:08 Speaker_01
So Notion AI can help you do things like write a first draft of something that you're working on, jumpstart a brainstorm, turn your messy notes into something polished.

00:40:16 Speaker_01
It can even, and this is what I really like about where they're going with this, can help you automate tedious tasks like summarizing meeting notes or finding next steps.

00:40:28 Speaker_01
Notion is used by over half of fortune 500 companies because again, it makes it easy to have custom data based systems that do exactly what you want. And with AI, it's become even more useful.

00:40:39 Speaker_01
So you can try Notion for free when you go to notion.com slash cal type that in all lowercase letters, notion.com slash cal to try the powerful, easy to use Notion AI today. When you use our link, you'll be supporting our show.

00:40:52 Speaker_01
That's Notion.com slash Cal. Also want to talk about our longtime friends at Blinkist. Blinkist is an app that gives you over 6,500 book summaries and expert led audio guides to read and listen to in just 15 minutes per title.

00:41:09 Speaker_01
You can access best in class, actual knowledge from 27 categories such as productivity, psychology, and more on the go and get entertained at the same time. The way Jesse and I like to use Blinkist is to triage potential books to read.

00:41:23 Speaker_01
If we hear about a book we might be interested in, we'll add it to our queue. When we get around to it, we'll either read the 15-minute summary, you know, right there on our phone, or listen to the 15-minute summary like you would a podcast.

00:41:37 Speaker_01
It does a great job of letting you understand what a book is about, and I find it really helps me decide whether I want to read the whole book, or if I've got enough, I get the gist. Like, I get where you're going here.

00:41:47 Speaker_01
I don't need to read a whole book about this. So it's a fantastic tool for triaging what books you read. Other people use it as just straight entertainment. It's like an interesting podcast to learn about different topics.

00:41:56 Speaker_01
A lot of ways to use Blinkist, but it is a must have companion to the reading life. Cool new feature to offer. They have this program called Blinkist Connect that allows you to give another person unlimited access for free.

00:42:09 Speaker_01
So it's basically two for one. That's a cool thing that's going on. Now, so right now Blinkist has a special offer just for our audience.

00:42:19 Speaker_01
Go to blinkist.com slash deep to start your seven day free trial and you will get 40% off a Blinkist premium membership. That's Blinkist spelled B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T. Blinkist.com slash deep to get 40% off any seven day free trial. Blinkist.com slash deep.

00:42:36 Speaker_01
And now for a limited time, you can use Blinkist connect to share your premium account. You will get two premium subscriptions for the price of one. Jesse, maybe we should wear these blinking lights every time we do a Blinkist ad.

00:42:46 Speaker_01
Yeah, that's a good idea. It could start a bad precedent though, that like every advertiser would now want us to have a physical prop, but hey, we're up for it. We're up for it. All right, let's get back to the questions.

00:42:59 Speaker_00
All right, next question. Can you walk us through your shutdown ritual? How long does it take? Has there ever been a workday where you missed it? Are there significant consequences if that happens?

00:43:11 Speaker_01
So okay, when I'm done with work for the day, I open my first of what will be several handles of whiskey, and I just start pounding. I start pounding until the pain goes away. No, that's not my shutdown ritual.

00:43:26 Speaker_01
So what I do for my shutdown ritual is I, first of all, clean up open loops. So for me, these are going to be in two places. One will be my workingmemory.txt file on my computer. This is my expansion of my working memory.

00:43:43 Speaker_01
I use this non-formatted text edit text file. All throughout the day, I capture notes and ideas. just to remember things temporarily or more long-term. Like let's say I'm trying to schedule a meeting and someone emails me some options.

00:43:57 Speaker_01
I'll just copy that and paste it into that file and then I'll open up my calendar and I have the file open up next to me and I can see what time works. I keep impromptu to-do lists for admin blocks in here. Okay, here's what I'm working on.

00:44:07 Speaker_01
I take notes on things that occur to me. So I make sure at the end of the day there's nothing loose in that file

00:44:14 Speaker_01
that needs to be captured, that needs to be moved into my task storage system, that needs to be moved as a reminder onto my calendar, that needs to generate an email that I send out. So I make sure those open loops are closed.

00:44:24 Speaker_01
I usually then do a survey of my inbox as well, just to make sure there's not something time sensitive I missed. critical.

00:44:32 Speaker_01
Doing a final check of your inbox before you shut down will destabilize one of the biggest post shutdown sources of distraction, which is this urge to just sort of check in just to be sure that you're not missing something in your inbox.

00:44:46 Speaker_01
So that final check is really important. Then I'm going to look at my weekly plan. See if I need to update it at all. What am I doing tomorrow? I look at my calendar, my weekly plan.

00:44:55 Speaker_01
What changes do I need to make about what I did or didn't get to today so that I feel like my weekly plan is now at the end of this day in a good place. All right, it's up to speed where it needs to be.

00:45:06 Speaker_01
At that point, I'm ready to do my shutdown ritual, which now is typically going to just be in my time block planner where I have a shutdown complete checkbox and I just check that. Right, and now I know I've done my shutdown ritual.

00:45:21 Speaker_01
If I've done that, I can get into my evening without work stress. I can get into my evening without feeling like there's something in the back of my mind, like, what about this? What about that? So it really does make a difference.

00:45:34 Speaker_01
Sometimes it's part of the shutdown ritual. I'll sketch out a plan for the evening. If it's kind of a complicated evening, I need to pick up this kid. We're going to this thing. I want to get this done.

00:45:42 Speaker_01
I'll sketch out a little plan and I will look at the planner. I'll have it just so I can remember when I'm trying to get done that night after my shutdown. But once I do that checkmark in the checkbox, I'm not thinking about work until the next day.

00:45:55 Speaker_01
I do miss this sometimes. The times when I miss this, it's not, it's not due to a day being so busy that I just don't get time to do it. The times when I miss this is where the day is sort of,

00:46:07 Speaker_01
Hybrid when the day is sort of kind of a workday not really a workday, and I know a lot of people who go to an office Don't have this experience, but for someone like me. I'm a professor. I'm a writer It can get kind of hazy like this time of year.

00:46:21 Speaker_01
It can get kind of hazy

00:46:23 Speaker_01
Semester's over, Christmas break's about to start, maybe I have to go to a doctor's appointment that morning, and I'm kind of working, but we're also going to pick up gifts, and it's sort of a work day, and it's sort of not a work day.

00:46:37 Speaker_01
Those are the days where the shutdowns don't happen, and I suffer for it. And it's just this background hum of a little bit of destabilization and anxiety. So it's the days I can get my shutdown routine, which is, I really don't like to miss it.

00:46:50 Speaker_01
And I'm not going to miss it on a normal full workday. That really makes a big difference.

00:46:55 Speaker_00
So you pretty much work on the same computer all day that where you're working memory is. Yeah.

00:47:01 Speaker_01
So I have two of two working memory dot TXT files, my laptop. That's the main computer I'll use. I have an external monitor at home that I'll plug it into. And then I have one here in the computers in the studio, in the maker lab here at the studio.

00:47:17 Speaker_01
That one I use only in the moment. I will empty that when I'm done using that computer. So I don't keep stuff on there. So if I'm writing on that computer, I'm using the big monitors, I'll usually have my laptop.

00:47:31 Speaker_01
I will copy stuff over to the working memory.txt on my laptop. So I will use the working memory.txt on the studio computers. really temporarily. Like, let me remember this while I go over to my calendar.

00:47:42 Speaker_01
Let me type the five points I want to put in this thing. I'm writing quotes. Let me copy a quote. I'm going to move over here. And then I clean that out when I walk away from the computer.

00:47:49 Speaker_01
So it's really the file on my laptop that I treat as the sort of stable file. And that's the one I want to be checking at the end of the day.

00:47:55 Speaker_00
Okay. All right, next question. Do you think about retirement? If so, is it dependent on financial or other factors? Would you still work some of your jobs past technical retirement?

00:48:09 Speaker_01
I mean, what does retirement mean for me? I have been thinking about this and my financial advisor asked me about this, but it's complicated because I have a lot of jobs. So what does retirement, what would it actually mean from a job perspective?

00:48:29 Speaker_01
Does it mean stop being a professor? Does it mean stop being a magazine journalist? Does it mean stop being a podcaster? Does it mean stop writing books? Is it some subset of those, some combination of those?

00:48:40 Speaker_01
It's unlikely to ever mean for me to do none of those things. Like why would I ever stop, for example, writing books if I could or, you know, magazine articles. So it's a very complicated thing for me.

00:48:51 Speaker_01
And even like saying that stopping a professor, it's not always so cut and dry. Like there's professors have different setups, you know, it's, it's there. Some are just straightforward.

00:49:01 Speaker_01
I'm in a standard department with a full teaching load doing the normal thing, but there's also professors out there. You might not know it if you're not in academia.

00:49:09 Speaker_01
but like well-known professors where they have a title and they're associated with the center and they don't really draw much of a salary and maybe they have an office or not on campus, but they're barely there.

00:49:19 Speaker_01
It's like very, the word professor can mean many different things. So it's all very complicated.

00:49:24 Speaker_01
So what I've been focusing in on instead is the financial aspect and really keeping things simple, looking at straightforward financial independence so that we have a very clear number.

00:49:37 Speaker_01
This is how much we would need to sort of comfortably live per year. We know that number pretty well because we're pretty careful in tracking our expenses.

00:49:49 Speaker_01
This is what that number is going to reduce to sort of post having kids at home because that's a smaller number. Kids at home, you spend more money and you have to think about college, et cetera. What would the number be tomorrow?

00:49:59 Speaker_01
And what would the number be once the kids are gone, which is like a lower number. Both of those we can translate into how many, how much assets would you have to have to basically feel comfortable withdrawing that much money annually?

00:50:11 Speaker_01
That's a big number, not a crazy number, but a big number. That's a number I have in mind. Right. If you know my next book does really well, there's a, some big influx of money.

00:50:24 Speaker_01
That's what I'm putting that money towards because the way I see it is the closer you get to that sort of financial independence, the more breathing room you have to pursue whatever definition of retirement seems interesting because now you're not dependent on any of the things I'm doing as like an income source.

00:50:41 Speaker_01
Now you can just start thinking, what do I think the ideal combination of work would be?

00:50:45 Speaker_01
And you could explore that without having to worry about, yeah, but my health insurance or are we going to be able to like pay for this or that or these expenses or whatever.

00:50:55 Speaker_01
So that's the way I've been thinking about it is not I want to stop working, but the more financial independence I gain, the more comfortable I can be. reconfiguring what work means because the fear is not there.

00:51:08 Speaker_01
And this is why I'd be a bad entrepreneur. I think Jesse is like, I really have that mindset of, um, I don't trust. I think of the worst case scenarios financially. I don't take risks. I like overlapping sources of income. Uh, I, I want stress reduction.

00:51:24 Speaker_01
You know, I think other people we know are much more aggressive about, Hey, this thing's going well and it's cool. Like let's go all in on that. And we'll probably figure it out. Well, I don't like to just hope it works out.

00:51:36 Speaker_01
So I'm probably way more conservative than other people would be. And because of that, I have too many jobs and that's kind of a problem.

00:51:42 Speaker_00
What does overlapping sources of income mean?

00:51:45 Speaker_01
So, okay. Like someone else, our situation might say, Hey, this podcast is doing well. Just be a podcaster or you're a successful writer. Just be a full time book writer. It's fine. You're doing well. Right. Um, or you know, whatever, wherever it would be.

00:51:59 Speaker_01
Whereas I, I think of it as like, well, yeah, the podcast is doing well, but like, What if it stops doing well, then you're screwed, or like books is fickle. It's like being a successful actor.

00:52:08 Speaker_01
You're a successful actor until you're not, until you make two bad movies, and then you're no longer a successful actor. It's like, I'm always sort of catastrophizing, whereas my full-time writer friends, for example, are like, you're crazy.

00:52:19 Speaker_01
Like, you're very, very successful as a writer, you know, way over the threshold that someone just like, great, I can just now

00:52:26 Speaker_01
Or other things where I'll be conservative would be a lot of people in my situation like, yeah, whatever, I bought a farm up in Vermont or I have a cabin up in West Virginia. Yeah, they don't overthink it. That'd be cool. It's a cool place to go.

00:52:40 Speaker_01
And we spend the summers there and we write or whatever. I'm in my head doing the math. It doesn't cost this much. What about this and the stress of this and this and this?

00:52:47 Speaker_01
And so I'm, I, I, I've always had this mindset of like, no one's going to save me. I got it. I'm supporting a family. I want security. I want, you know, I, I want to be able to weather multiple points of failure. It's very sort of non-entrepreneurial.

00:53:03 Speaker_01
Also, the problem is I like all these things, right? Like Georgetown could be a pain in terms of work. You know, especially when I feel like I'm at the height of my abilities with certain things and I'm doing forms.

00:53:14 Speaker_01
But I really love academia and professors and being on campuses and that life and my whole life. I've lived my entire adult life in academic institutions and it's really cool and rare and most people don't get to do it.

00:53:25 Speaker_01
And I would hate to give that up.

00:53:26 Speaker_00
Yeah, because I bet once you left it, you would be like, oh, I miss it.

00:53:29 Speaker_01
I want to go back. It's the problem. I like, I like writing books. Like, why would I want to start that? Like, that's really fun. I've been doing that since I'm, you know, 20 years old. Like, why would I want to stop doing that?

00:53:38 Speaker_01
And this podcasting thing we're having, this is cool as well. It's, it's the modern, this is like the, what the equivalent of having a radio show that was pretty successful 25 years ago. And like, this is really interesting.

00:53:49 Speaker_01
I just liked many of these things. I love all the people at the New Yorker. It's like really cool to write for them. Right. So the problem is, I can do, I like all these things and, and like often it works and then sometimes it doesn't.

00:54:00 Speaker_01
I mean, Jesse knows every September I say, that's it, I'm quitting. I'm just going to live in the woods and be a writer. But then every June I'm like, ah, these jobs are awesome. I love all this stuff. Why would I ever want to not do any of these things?

00:54:12 Speaker_01
So yeah, back to retirement, I don't even know what that means. So I'm just squirreling away money. I see like money is options, optionality. I don't know if that's a word.

00:54:22 Speaker_00
Optionality. You'll get some emails about it.

00:54:25 Speaker_01
It's a real insidious process. Real insidious process we have here.

00:54:30 Speaker_00
Alright, next question we have a little bit of an interactive here. But the overall question is, do you think Elon Musk's purchase of X had this intended effect? And are that many people really on X? And I have an article here from the Washington Post.

00:54:48 Speaker_00
It's like an interactive that you can scroll through.

00:54:50 Speaker_01
All right, so we can put this up on the screen for people who are watching. on the screen full screen. Our YouTube guy is yelling right now. He's convinced that like any moment I'm not on the screen, people are going to immediately turn away. All right.

00:55:03 Speaker_01
I'll read this out loud for those who are listening instead of just writing. I guess Elon, on the November 6th, he tweeted, they have the tweet up here, it's morning in America again. All right, then here's the text. At 1039 a.m.

00:55:15 Speaker_01
on the day Donald Trump declared victory for a second term, Elon Musk wrote six words on X. This post instantly caught fire. About an hour and a half, it had been seen more than 10 million times and was still reaching 120,000 new viewers every minute.

00:55:30 Speaker_01
Oh, there's a cool graph. Oh, interesting. This is the graph I've used over time. It's trending down with over 200 million followers. Look, can you see this? The arrow on the graph is like sparking. Yeah. Cool graphics.

00:55:44 Speaker_01
With over 200 million followers, Musk has the biggest account on X and increasingly uses it to wield political power. Look at this thing. In 26 days around the election, Musk fired off 3,870 posts that received more than 33 billion views.

00:55:59 Speaker_01
My God, if I was a shareholder in one of these companies, I'd be like, what are you doing? Come on, like this is a, give, there's 3,000 worst, almost 4,000 posts could have been like you thinking about our company. Musk reach transcends Trump's.

00:56:16 Speaker_01
With each of his ex-posts typically seen by twice as many users as a post from the president-elect. Yeah, the post returned to Twitter. Trump's influence is smaller on there. As Musk prepares for a central role in the U.S.

00:56:29 Speaker_01
government, the billionaire has a political megaphone unmatched in modern society. All right, so what are you wondering about, Jesse? You're wondering, like, is this true?

00:56:38 Speaker_00
How many people are really on? I didn't think that many people were really on X. Yeah, I think your suspicion

00:56:44 Speaker_01
is largely correct, right? X slash Twitter, whatever you, you know, Twitter now X really is a playpen of elites in a very broad sense. But it was a place that this is where like intellectual, academic, technocratic and political elites gathered.

00:57:07 Speaker_01
And this is why there's a lot of energy in this place, is where they gathered, they hashed out ideas, they sought status, and they sort of collaboratively warred with each other to try to establish cultural Overton windows.

00:57:23 Speaker_01
So it was an important place for various elites. Most people in the country could care less. It's not a heavily used platform. It doesn't have a large number of active users. It doesn't play a large role in most people's day-to-day life.

00:57:41 Speaker_01
It's the smallest of the platforms in terms of, it's dwarfed by something like Facebook.

00:57:46 Speaker_00
That's why it was valued so little, right?

00:57:48 Speaker_01
Yeah. That's why it was like a $40 billion company where Meta is honing in on a trillion billion dollar valuation. It's whatever it is, $800 billion valuation. It's a pretty small company.

00:58:02 Speaker_01
But the people who write about it are part of that category of cultural elites to which it made a really big deal. So if you're covering technology, it's a really big deal. It's like this was the clubhouse where we all were.

00:58:16 Speaker_01
And there was a change in fortune as the ownership of that clubhouse changed. The clubhouse became different.

00:58:24 Speaker_01
It was like a bigger kid took over the treehouse and put up like a no girls allowed sign like you would have had back when you were in fourth grade. But it was like the cultural political equivalent of that. The composition changed.

00:58:34 Speaker_01
So there was there was a period in. The lead up so and the the last donald trump presidency and through the biden presidency there was up through you know elon Taking over twitter.

00:58:46 Speaker_01
There was a period where certain groups sort of had control Within these elites certain subset of the elite sort of had control of this platform And then it switched to like the other team got control of it And this is very traumatic if you're someone who was hanging out in this clubhouse But for the rest of the country, I don't think it mattered much But it did like it set the agenda for what?

00:59:07 Speaker_01
elites wrote about, what other elites talked about. Elite politicians would look at what was happening on here and this would set their agenda about how they thought about things or how they were reacting to things.

00:59:15 Speaker_01
And so it mattered to this small group of people, but I don't think it matters to most normal people.

00:59:20 Speaker_01
I actually, and I've said this from the beginning, I think it was good for our culture writ large that Elon Musk bought and semi-broke this platform because it reduces its influence on those cultural elites.

00:59:37 Speaker_01
Great, fracture it, make it more partisan so it's less influential. If it's more nakedly like, this team has it, this team doesn't like it, it's impact on how a politician thinks about what matters, doesn't matter, goes down.

00:59:49 Speaker_01
It's impact on how a journalist thinks about what am I going to write about or not write about, goes down. It's impact on an academic trying to think about what they want to say or not say or pursue, goes down.

01:00:00 Speaker_01
And that's for the good, because it's entirely non-representative. It doesn't represent any sort of coherent understanding of the world. It's status-seeking elites from different sides all fighting with each other.

01:00:10 Speaker_01
So I think the more Twitter X broke, the better for our culture writ large. I think Twitter capture of cultural elite conversations was a real problem. It's not a major platform, but it was punching way above its weight class.

01:00:25 Speaker_01
So yes, I think for the people who used to be really powerful on that platform who are no longer are really worried that someone they doesn't like is powerful on that platform.

01:00:32 Speaker_01
But I think the bigger picture is most people don't care who has a lot of users on that platform or not. Most people have real jobs and kids to take care of and aren't going to look at memes that Elon Musk is posting that he had his grok AI produce.

01:00:49 Speaker_01
I'm working on an article right now, Jesse, that's requiring me to go deep on a few social platforms I'd never use and actually use them for a little bit. That's brain rot stuff. It's brain rot stuff. So I think this article is histrionic.

01:01:05 Speaker_01
I think, yes, to that reporter, if this is your whole world, it's like, yeah, it's a big deal the other guy took over. But I'm like, great, break it.

01:01:13 Speaker_01
Make the, make it, rip the rope ladder off the metaphorical clubhouse so people stop paying so much attention to it. Because I don't think it's good. I don't think it's good for our culture. I don't think it's good for our politics.

01:01:23 Speaker_01
It's not good for our media. It's not good for anything. The elites stop hanging out among each other and creating these sort of interior, super-bubbled, meme-filled worlds and giving it so much significance.

01:01:34 Speaker_00
Because I guess if you do a little bit of math, 33 billion with 3,870 posts would be about 8.5 million views per post, which I guess if you compare it to 335 million people in the US, it's less than 3%. And it's the same people.

01:01:40 Speaker_00
Yeah, it's the same people.

01:01:53 Speaker_01
Yeah, that's the problem with these. It's the same – yes, his influence graph looks big because he sort of set it up so that everyone who has a Twitter timeline just sees his latest thing.

01:02:05 Speaker_01
But yeah, I've never been – I've written about this for New Yorker a bunch of times. And this I've written this article several times, like, look at my article.

01:02:15 Speaker_01
We don't need a new Twitter, for example, for in a couple more about this, that it's an idea that doesn't make sense. Our culture doesn't need it. It's not as important as the people who think it's important think it is right.

01:02:27 Speaker_01
The problem is it didn't fall apart. So there is early on. There was this accusation of like, look, when Musk took this over and started firing all these people, the platform itself technically was going to fall apart.

01:02:38 Speaker_01
I'd be like, that would be great from my perspective as a cultural critic because this is not a useful contribution to our culture. Problem is Elon Musk is good at running tech companies. He knows you – he fired a ton of people, brought in some 10Xers.

01:02:52 Speaker_01
Drastically cut down the expenses of running it and you know what it's like perfectly stable again, and he's building so that's the problem He's too good at running companies said to accidentally break it.

01:03:02 Speaker_01
Mm-hmm, but now it's just become like a smaller Playhouse, it's just there's these two sides. We're fighting on there now. It's like mainly just this side and you know, I Don't think it's culturally important Okay next question

01:03:17 Speaker_00
Many fans have reached out asking me to for an update on your remarkable. Are you still regularly using it? If so, has anything changed since your last update?

01:03:25 Speaker_01
I am, I am still regularly using it. It is my primary notebook. I use that in single purpose notebooks, small field notes that I use for like very specific, uh, single purpose uses, which I've talked about before on the show, single use notebooks.

01:03:39 Speaker_01
I either have my single purpose notebooks I can fit in my pocket, And then on my Remarkable, I don't have any other full-size notebooks I use. So I've been using it regularly. I still enjoy it.

01:03:51 Speaker_01
I cracked a screen a little bit, but it's in the corner, so I think it's okay. I was actually, the doctor's appointment today, I was seeing a, you know, I had a surgery and I was seeing the surgeon for the post-op, whatever.

01:04:01 Speaker_01
And, uh, you know, when you see a surgeon, you get what? Six minutes max. Three of those six minutes was him just wanting to know about my remarkable.

01:04:10 Speaker_00
Cause you had it.

01:04:11 Speaker_01
Yeah. That's the magic of it. I can just grab it and like, yeah. In fact, so remarkable users know you can create as many notebooks as you want within it. And I was even seen actually, I didn't bring it with me here.

01:04:23 Speaker_01
You can, you can have as many notebooks as you want within it, but there's also something called quick sheets, which is just like a generic notebook where you can just jot down notes.

01:04:29 Speaker_01
So like for something like a surgeon's appointment, I just opened up a quick sheet and Dr. blah, blah, this date took notes on what he said, because like, I need to capture this information just temporarily so I don't forget it, but I don't need like a whole notebook.

01:04:43 Speaker_01
for this surgery. Like this is, I got some information before the surgery. I got some information here and let me just jot it down so I don't forget it.

01:04:49 Speaker_01
But for other things, I, you know, I have full, I have full notebooks and there's probably now 30 notebooks on there. And so yeah, I use it for everything.

01:04:57 Speaker_01
I use it for certainly all of my sort of work I've been doing on my new quarterly plan, which we'll talk about in the final segment. I've been working a lot of that out within The Remarkable.

01:05:10 Speaker_01
I run a robotics club at my kid's school, and that's where I keep track of. I have a notebook for that.

01:05:16 Speaker_01
this is just like in the weeds who was using what computer what were the teams who like here's the bracket for the competition the robot competition so just you know i'm just using it straight up for that when i'm working on a particular article i might have a article notebook where i'm you know taking notes on that so i love my remarkable i continue to think it's a great application they've made a couple updates to the software i like i think notably now you know you have to select

01:05:44 Speaker_01
what type of pen or pencil you're using. Like you have a stylus, but you select like how thick you want the line to be and whether you want it to be a pencil line or a pen line or a highlighter. They added a second pencil or like selector next to it.

01:05:58 Speaker_01
So you could have two different things selected that you use commonly and just sort of tap on which one you want to use. So I think that's cool. Yeah. So I continue to be a big remarkable fan.

01:06:07 Speaker_01
Let me tell you the thing I paid for that I've never used or have barely used. I got the fancy case that has a built-in keyboard so I can open it up, turn it around, and I have a keyboard and it's mounted up. I don't use it. I don't use the keyboard.

01:06:23 Speaker_01
The typing is not well-supported. It's like weird where you can type and it's hard to edit, and I just don't use that. So if you're thinking about getting a Remarkable, it's very expensive.

01:06:34 Speaker_01
But don't make it even more expensive by getting the keyboard case for now. I've just been doing the writing.

01:06:41 Speaker_00
Do you ever check the notebooks on another computer? Can you do that?

01:06:44 Speaker_01
So it automatically syncs.

01:06:45 Speaker_00
Yeah. So can you do that if you're on your laptop?

01:06:47 Speaker_01
Yeah. So I have, it's, I have the app on my laptop and whenever I'm on wifi that the remarkable knows about, it'll just in the background sync things up. And then if I go over to that app, it just has all the notebooks replicated in there. Right.

01:07:06 Speaker_01
So I can, if I needed to, I don't use this very often, but I just like knowing it's there. And I actually had where I've used it before as I've printed stuff before. Or I'd be like, you know what, I wanna print this, these notes I took.

01:07:17 Speaker_01
It's easy to do. You go to the app, you go to the notebook, you navigate over to the page and you can just print them. So I like it. I think it's a cool product.

01:07:25 Speaker_00
All right, what do we got? All right, next question's our corner, Slow Productivity Corner. Let's get some theme music.

01:07:32 Speaker_01
All right, so this is your Slow Productivity Corner question. For people who don't know, we have one question every week. That's relevant to my new book, Slow Productivity, The Lost Art of Burnout, The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout.

01:07:49 Speaker_01
That'd be a different book, The Lost Art of Burnout. Let me tell you how to do it. Be a professor and a podcaster and a magazine journalist and a writer and on a couple boards at the same time. And have three kids. And have three kids.

01:08:03 Speaker_01
That's how you burn out and get surgery in the middle of all that. What's your Slow Productivity Corner question?

01:08:10 Speaker_00
What's your post-mortem analysis of slow productivity? Please consider the actual writing, marketing, and sales. Are there clear things you'll do differently for your deep life book?

01:08:21 Speaker_01
Look, I think the whole project was worth it just for that theme music. It has given us an excuse to play the Slow Productivity Corner music. It's been an interesting ride with slow productivity.

01:08:33 Speaker_01
I'm very positive about it, but it's been an up and down ride. It opened up really well because, you know, I'm pretty – I'm relatively well-known right now. If I have a book coming out, I can do major appearances surrounding it, you know?

01:08:53 Speaker_01
Like I did Andrew Huberman's show on the day the book came out. That type of stuff matters. I have a great audience on this podcast. I have a great audience for my newsletter.

01:09:03 Speaker_01
So the book came out stronger than any book I've ever written before, which makes sense given my growing audience size and reputation. Debuted as number two on the New York Times bestseller list, which was sort of good news, bad news.

01:09:14 Speaker_01
Like number three would almost be better because you weren't so close to number one. I was thwarted by James Clear having a big bulk order for Atomic Habits that week. It made the UK bestseller list for the first time.

01:09:26 Speaker_01
It made the indie bestseller list for the first time. The book is actually doing very well in the UK, which has been interesting to see. So I think that's all great. It's been selling well.

01:09:37 Speaker_01
It's been at probably a faster selling trajectory than any past books. I keep

01:09:43 Speaker_01
Convincing myself like well, that's about to stop and now it's gonna fall off and fall well below like other books But I you know, I think it's it's doing well it got into Six-figure sales like as quick as any book that I have done before Which is great, which means now if my eight books, there's only two of my eight books that are have not been

01:10:04 Speaker_01
made it comfortably into six figure book sales. So that I'm proud of. The downside was like the initial reaction to the book, like when it when it first came out, there was like some negative reaction from like traditional elite media.

01:10:21 Speaker_01
As I've talked about on the show, it makes sense because I had become in this like weird in-between position. I do what I call smart self-help.

01:10:30 Speaker_01
I like to write stuff that has practical advice, but I also think about things in a way that you might have in a more traditional like cultural commentary, more sophisticated type nonfiction.

01:10:39 Speaker_01
I kind of put those two things together and I think there's a group of just sort of the standard media that my name came to their attention doing much more like traditional

01:10:49 Speaker_01
more traditional non nonfiction journalism stuff like during the during the pandemic.

01:10:53 Speaker_01
You know, I spent a lot of time on NPR, for example, as a sort of resident expert on remote work and knowledge work, the technology of knowledge work and knowledge work in a sort of like remote work era.

01:11:04 Speaker_01
People came to know my New Yorker work, my New Yorker journalism on technology. And so, you know, I got some book reviews early on from reviewers who would never review a book like

01:11:14 Speaker_01
slow productivity, never have before in their life, have never read a book that has advice in it. You know, like the New York Times, it was their main literary nonfiction book reviewers, like, I'll review this.

01:11:23 Speaker_01
And they were like, what the hell is this? You know, this guy is giving advice. you know, pearls being clutched, people swooning on fainting chairs. They had just never seen a book like this before. They don't review these types of books.

01:11:37 Speaker_01
And if a book like this typically was going to get reviewed at something like the Times, typically you would shop it out to someone from that field. You would say, great, we'll have a freelancer, like someone who writes about business, review it.

01:11:48 Speaker_01
It's like when Adam Grant gets a book reviewed in the New York Times Book Review, they'll have a psychologist review it. But no, it was like the literary book reviewer who was like, what the hell is this? There's advice in here.

01:11:57 Speaker_01
So that threw me off my game. I was like, what if I wrote a bad book?

01:12:02 Speaker_01
I mean, I was getting good reviews too, like big publications that were more used to the world of business and business advice, like the Financial Times, for example, in UK, the Wall Street Journal here in the US, like, yeah, this is a good book.

01:12:14 Speaker_01
This is like, da-da-da, here's the points. But I was thrown by the New York Times and Times of London putting their literary book reviewers on it and being like, this is crazy that someone's giving advice. Like, I couldn't imagine doing that in a book.

01:12:26 Speaker_01
It was thrown like is this what if the book was what if the writing is just what if it's bad like what if it's off so I sort of stopped following coverage of it stopped following sales then the end of the year came and it was all

01:12:39 Speaker_01
Everything switched because at the end of the year, that's when book awards are given out. It's when best books of the year list are given out. And the book did better on those than anything I've ever written before, right?

01:12:49 Speaker_01
And people are talking about passing along and this best book of the year, you know, best book of the year here and there and business book awards, multiple different selections and awards. And I was like, oh, OK, yeah, maybe it was a good book. OK.

01:13:01 Speaker_01
But I had to sort of wait till the end of the year to get that. So it's this interesting up and down. But, you know, it's doing well. I think it is having a cultural impact, which is what I wanted it to have.

01:13:13 Speaker_01
And I'm continuing to draw from it on this podcast because there's so many good ideas in it. The new book I'm working on, The Deep Life, it's similar. I mean, I see The Deep Life as sort of a one, it's not a one-off book, but it's

01:13:27 Speaker_01
a step out of the main trajectory of my books, which is all technology and its impact in one way or the other. Right? Like, Slow Productivity is about knowledge work broke because of computers and networks and email. How do we fix it? Right?

01:13:42 Speaker_01
It's within that trajectory. The Deep Life is about how do you, it's a pandemic idea. How do you engineer your life? And the whole premise of that book is we spend so much time talking about What should be in a life well lived?

01:13:55 Speaker_01
We don't talk nearly enough about the mechanics of how one actually changes their life. We don't give that nearly enough attention. The mechanics of figuring out what to do, making the changes, making the changes stick.

01:14:05 Speaker_01
Like that's, that's what we ignore. And we said, we focus on what your life should have. It should have passion. It should have friendships or whatever, but not how do you actually change your life? That's pretty hard.

01:14:14 Speaker_01
And how has that happened to our current world of like high technology work with the opportunities that gives us. And so this book is a little bit of a step out of the main trajectory and I'm just leaning into that.

01:14:25 Speaker_01
I'm writing like a practical guide, the chapters have numbered sections, and it's really, I'm writing this book for my gut, you know.

01:14:32 Speaker_01
It's just unapologetic, here's the ideas, do this, this is why I think it's important, that important, here's a story, here's this finding, like it's not, it really is really unfiltered, purified, like the way I talk on this podcast, I guess.

01:14:46 Speaker_01
I don't know, I feel good about it, but it's its own thing, it's not,

01:14:50 Speaker_01
It's not carefully crafted like we have to this very special, you know, a lot of these books are really well crafted with everything has to start with a story that the story has to have ideas extracted from it. It's more free-flowing.

01:15:02 Speaker_01
It's sections and some sections are smaller than others. It's it's as dense as anything I've ever written like just I only want Super solid ideas that I think are interesting. I'm cutting out everything else. It covers a huge wider range I don't know.

01:15:15 Speaker_01
I'm really enjoying writing it and I'm sort of just saying I don't know what you're gonna categorize this book as you know, I don't know what I would compare it to I'm just I think it's I find it awesome I'm just really enjoying it and it'll do what it's gonna do, but I'm gonna be happy that it exists out there in the world So, you know, I'm having fun with it That's a lot of things to say Jesse, but I have a lot I've been thinking about with slow productivity, but generally

01:15:40 Speaker_01
I'm happy. I think this book is out there. It's selling. It's helping. I think it was good. Wasn't sure. Some feedback that is good. So all of that, I think all that's positive. Are there principles for the deep life?

01:15:54 Speaker_01
So the deep life right now is broken into two parts, each part around a big idea connected to our general theme here, which is the mechanics of how you actually transform your life to be more intentional.

01:16:05 Speaker_01
So part one right now is tentatively called preparation. The big idea there is that we, we think too much about the, we want to jump right into like making big changes in our life.

01:16:16 Speaker_01
But if you don't have your act together, we talked about this on the show, but if you don't have your act together first, you're unlikely to succeed in trying to make big changes.

01:16:23 Speaker_01
So like the whole first part of the book preparation is how do you get your act together to the point where making really cool intentional changes to your life is going to be likely to succeed. And this is where I talk about discipline.

01:16:37 Speaker_01
It's where I talk about being organized. That's where I talk about reclaiming your mind. So it's like in the weeds.

01:16:42 Speaker_01
Part two transformation is about the mechanics of how you actually reliably figure out the changes you want to make and successfully execute them. And they're the big ideas, lifestyle centric planning.

01:16:52 Speaker_01
Most people, when they think about trying to overhaul their life, they fixate on a singular goal that they hope will change everything.

01:16:58 Speaker_01
If I can just succeed with this big, bold, singular goal I like to talk about and tell friends about, everything in my life will be better. That rarely works for a lot of reasons.

01:17:05 Speaker_01
It's much better to establish a rich vision of an ideal lifestyle and then work backwards from that to figure out with your current opportunities and obstacles, how do I move towards it?

01:17:14 Speaker_01
It becomes much more strategic and tactical and in the weeds and you're much more likely to succeed. And so it really gets into those ideas and kind of step-by-step how you actually do those things. preparation, transformation.

01:17:27 Speaker_01
So even if you just read part one, it's sort of just my guide to being an eminently capable human.

01:17:34 Speaker_01
You know, you're going to build up your capacity for discipline, you are going to get yourself organized, like the latest thinking on what matters and doesn't matter in productivity, personal productivity, like this is the only book you're going to find that all in.

01:17:48 Speaker_01
reclaiming your brain, like how to teach yourself to think again, not just not being a slave to devices like talk about it, but how to actually actively build up.

01:17:56 Speaker_01
contemplative abilities, you know, the ability to sit there with a book to self-reflect and you come out of part one just like you're in, you're in control of your life. Anything's possible.

01:18:06 Speaker_01
And part two is like, let's take that out for a spin and now start figuring out how to, how to transform your life into something really cool. So I'm enjoying writing.

01:18:12 Speaker_01
I'm taking my time, you know, and so it's, it's going to be, when you take your time as a writer and nonfiction, what you get is density.

01:18:21 Speaker_01
You know, I really thought about this chapter, and I really thought about this section in this chapter, and I thought about it for a while, and I wrote it, and I rewrote it, and what's there is exactly what I want to say and nothing else.

01:18:31 Speaker_01
And you get this real density of arguments and justifications and stories and evidence, because if you just take the book one section at a time, I just want to make this section like a New Yorker piece as good as possible.

01:18:44 Speaker_01
In the end, the book is very dense and you don't have that, you want to avoid that sensation you get when books are written quicker of they're kind of stretching. I just want to try to finish this chapter to get my word count up for the month.

01:18:55 Speaker_01
This book is very, it's very dense. The people I'm talking to, the things I'm reading, and I have no consistency to stories.

01:19:02 Speaker_01
It's not, Slow Productivity had a particular thing I wanted to do, which was stories of traditional knowledge workers as the anchors.

01:19:09 Speaker_01
here there's like stories but there's some things are not stories it's intellectual stories it's an event that happened in the world of ideas it's something that happened in the it's there's no set story format it's just like what is the what gets me to what i want to say here what makes this interesting and clear and so some of it is like i'm talking to really interesting people but i'm also

01:19:31 Speaker_01
Coming up with like, here's like a really interesting history of how this thing changed. The reception of this book teaches us like an important, you know, lesson about this. Here's this thing from, I'm all over the place with this.

01:19:41 Speaker_01
And I think it's, I don't know, I'm liking it. The key question is what I'm going to do next, Jesse. That's the question that's up in the air. I'm wondering what the book cover is going to be for a deep life too.

01:19:53 Speaker_01
I like the full bleed image concept that came up with slow productivity. So this was by, I'm proud of this innovation.

01:20:00 Speaker_01
I told my publisher, I said, I just think we need to break out of the visual vocabulary that these idea books and business books are all in, which was vocabulary invented by Gladwell, white cover,

01:20:12 Speaker_01
a single image, big text, you know, like we got to break out of that. I think that limits your audience. Um, I want my cover to induce in the reader a physiological state that is congruent with the goal of the book.

01:20:27 Speaker_01
And so full bleed, aspirational, relaxing imagery. I, you know, I was like that I think was useful for the book and opened it up to audiences that would not pick up that book.

01:20:36 Speaker_01
if it was, you know, a turtle at the computer screen in the middle or a single mat stick with a weird color flame and big tell report or whatever. So I, I'm sure I'm going to probably pitch something like that for this book too. The deep life.

01:20:52 Speaker_01
All right, let's, uh, there was our corner. Oh, let's get our final segment, uh, where I am going to talk about where I am with my quarterly planning for the upcoming new year. But first, here from another one of our sponsors.

01:21:07 Speaker_01
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01:21:23 Speaker_01
I mean, that's what you do. I'm not as young as I used to be. So, you know, you tip back a few drinks, you might have a rougher morning. The next day you don't bounce back just as quick. This is where pre-alcohol enters the picture.

01:21:37 Speaker_01
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01:21:49 Speaker_01
So when you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic by-product in your gut. It is largely this byproduct that leads to the rough next morning. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme that breaks this byproduct down.

01:22:07 Speaker_01
The way this works is you make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night and you drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. So as, you know, again, as I get older, this type of thing matters.

01:22:20 Speaker_01
So now it's, Hey, we got, I mean, I'm a fan around the holidays. I like the, uh, the holiday beers, the, the, the spiced heavy, like Belgian strong style beers. You only get them one time a year. I associate that with the holidays.

01:22:35 Speaker_01
You know, it's dark out, the Christmas lights are on. Now I'm at an age where, like, let me throw back a Z-Biotic first before I enjoy a nice frosty pint of that, just to ensure that I remain a little bit peppy in the next morning.

01:22:49 Speaker_01
So it's a cool idea for anyone. So anyways, with the holiday season upon us, as we all are going to have a few celebratory drinks now and then. Pre-alcohol is what's going to help you stay on track and not let the season throw you off course.

01:23:06 Speaker_01
I know I will bring my Zbiotic with me this season. So go to zbiotics.com slash deep to learn more and get 15% off your first order. When you use deep at checkout, the promo code deep, Zbiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee.

01:23:20 Speaker_01
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01:23:30 Speaker_00
I know that some holiday companies have given those to their holiday parties.

01:23:36 Speaker_01
Oh, that's a smart idea. Maybe that's what we should have done for a holiday episode is just both had like a really strong Christmas beer. And as the, as the episode went on, it gets more fun.

01:23:49 Speaker_01
We're just ranting about Brandon Sanderson by the end of it. All right, I also want to talk to you, speaking of fun liquids, I want to talk to you about our longtime friends at Element. L-M-N-T.

01:24:00 Speaker_01
Element is a zero-sugar electrolyte drink and sparkling electrolyte water born from the growing body of research revealing that optimal health outcomes occur at sodium levels that are two to three times government recommendation.

01:24:12 Speaker_01
So there's two ways to get Element. The way I do it is I have the mix packets, the drink mix packets. You just put it into your water bottle, you shake it up, and you have the extra electrolytes in your water.

01:24:24 Speaker_01
They also now sell a pre-mixed sparkling water you can just have in your fridge and grab it cold. The reason why I use Element for getting my extra electrolytes in water is they don't have junk in it. No sugar.

01:24:37 Speaker_01
No artificial colors, free of other dodgy ingredients that you might find in these other mixes. That's why I like them. I have a big bin of these in my kitchen right where the water bottles and my protein is.

01:24:50 Speaker_01
I use it if I've had a hard workout to help hydrate. I use it in the morning if maybe I wasn't hydrating enough the night before. When do I figure that out? When I wake up cotton mouth the next morning, I'll use it then.

01:25:01 Speaker_01
I'll use it if I have a long day of talking. lecturing, podcasting, doing interviews, that's very dehydrating. You're constantly expelling moisture. As you talk, I will go and throw some Element Electrolyte Mix into my water bottle.

01:25:14 Speaker_01
I use it all the time, so I can really endorse that from personal experience.

01:25:19 Speaker_01
One thing to keep in mind is they now have this chocolate medley that includes flavors like chocolate mint, chocolate chai, and chocolate raspberry, which are meant to be enjoyed hot.

01:25:28 Speaker_01
You're out there in the cold shoveling snow and you want to both rehydrate and warm up. Mix this in with hot water and it tastes great. So it's a good winter thing to keep in mind. You can try Element totally risk-free.

01:25:42 Speaker_01
And if you don't like it, just give it away to a salty friend and they will give you your money back. No questions asked. Now here's the good news. Members of my community can receive a free element sample pack with any order they make.

01:25:55 Speaker_01
If they go to drink element.com slash deep, that's drink element, L M N T.com slash deep. And they will send you a free sample pack with whatever you order. All right, Jesse, move on to our final segment. All right.

01:26:10 Speaker_01
So if I have this right and tell me if I have this right, Jesse, you want me to talk about, how I've updated my quarterly plan format and what is on my quarterly plan for the quarter that's going to begin here in the new year.

01:26:23 Speaker_00
Yeah, you mentioned in last week's episode about how you were making some changes to it and I had some inquiries about the specifics.

01:26:31 Speaker_01
Okay, so well, I have and a lot of this reflection has come out of writing my book, The Deep Life, because I'm thinking about generalizing advice around this type of thing.

01:26:42 Speaker_01
And when I was thinking about it, I was realizing some changes that might be beneficial. So as you know, I like to keep. The big picture plan, the anchor plan of my multi-scale planning, I update it roughly once a semester.

01:26:55 Speaker_01
So business people call these quarterly plans because they think about quarters. I'm a professor, I think about them as semester plans, so my sort of winter-spring plan is what I'm working on now, and this will kind of kick in in the new year.

01:27:08 Speaker_01
I used to have two of these for each semester, one for my personal life, one for my professional life. The change I mentioned in the last episode is I've consolidated them

01:27:19 Speaker_01
It makes more sense to have just one plan because, I don't know, these are all mixed together to me, my life and my work, and these things mixed together in such a way that I wanted to deal with the whole thing holistically.

01:27:30 Speaker_01
What had held me back from doing that before

01:27:33 Speaker_01
is that in my professional quarterly plan, I would sometimes get pretty detailed notes, like especially if it's working through with writing or the podcast, it might be like pretty detailed notes about, you know, we're going to work on this sequence of articles and interleave with these articles, research what's for this book chapter here.

01:27:50 Speaker_01
And actually these, these bigger picture notes for the next months could get pretty complicated. And so that's why I had my professional plan in a separate document.

01:27:58 Speaker_01
I realized I could just put those specific notes in a separate document and link to it from the main one.

01:28:05 Speaker_01
So when I talk about craft in my singular semester plan, I can just link to a separate document that says, okay, for this thing I'm working on really heavily this semester, over here I'm getting to the weeds about how I want to sequence that.

01:28:20 Speaker_01
So once I figured that out, I was like, great, I can have like one document that I actually review. I've been experimenting with the structure of this document as well.

01:28:30 Speaker_01
And what I've been working with for the plan that's about to go live is, and this comes from my thinking from the new book, is a foundation pillar approach. So you have a foundation on which you have a few pillars.

01:28:45 Speaker_01
These are what we would have used to call buckets that are, the pillars are capturing important parts of your life.

01:28:52 Speaker_01
what you're trying to achieve there in the long term and in the current planning semester or quarter, and the foundation supports them all.

01:29:01 Speaker_01
So right now in the plan I'm working on, I've simplified this thumb because this has gotten out of control for me before. I've simplified this thumb.

01:29:07 Speaker_01
The foundation typically is something that's going to be some mix of spiritual, philosophical and ethical. It's the foundation. It's working on your base, your code and base operating system. If you want to use sort of nerdy terminology that,

01:29:21 Speaker_01
helps you figure out how you just go about your life day to day, like your code, how you actually operate helps you. It's what you use to navigate hard things that are going to happen, your plan for doing that.

01:29:32 Speaker_01
And it influences the pillars you build on top of it, like what those pillars focus on and what you're trying to do. So I've increasingly come to believe you need this sort of philosophical, spiritual, ethical foundation.

01:29:42 Speaker_01
That's like your, your OS for life. for navigating life, and you need to keep working on that and evolving that, and that has to be clearly specified. On top of that then come the pillars.

01:29:54 Speaker_01
Right now, there's four pillars in particular that I'm focusing on. One that is what are called constitution in our classic bucket language, but this is your health, health and fitness.

01:30:07 Speaker_01
I mentioned off and on the show, I've had to have a surgery recently. This has sort of really knocked me off my physical game. Recovery, it's been what it's been.

01:30:15 Speaker_01
But as part of this, you get lots of tests and blood tests and it's sort of kicking off for me like a much more my middle age renewed focus and health and fitness is a common thing you go through.

01:30:25 Speaker_01
You get to a certain age and now it's health and fitness become less about wouldn't it be great to be good at this sport and more about I don't want to bypass. So this is a major focus going forward. There's been a leadership pillar.

01:30:39 Speaker_01
being a leader in my family, being a leader among sort of like friend circles and being a leader in the community in which I'm a part of, this has become a bigger focus for me as I get older as well.

01:30:48 Speaker_01
How to be a good father, how to be a good friend, how to be a leader within, you know, I'm on more leadership positions in my life now in various communities I'm involved in. So that is a pillar I'm focusing on.

01:31:01 Speaker_01
I guess I'll call celebration, they used the old bucket terminology, but basically a pillar focused on loving life, so like stuff that you do just because life is cool and it helps you acknowledge that.

01:31:15 Speaker_01
It's like the maker projects I do, the adventures I go on, my movie hobby of like really getting into movies and like making that a priority, that's like an important pillar for me is, you know, this is it. I strive a lot.

01:31:31 Speaker_01
But I need to be enjoying where I am now. So that's a pillar.

01:31:35 Speaker_01
And then probably the thickest pillar in terms of complexity is craft, my work, the things I build with my hands and my mind and the things I'm known for and where I'm trying to go with that craft and what's my goal long term and what am I trying to do in the semester ahead.

01:31:50 Speaker_01
And that's probably the most complicated of the pillars. So I have foundation and I have those four pillars. The method I'm applying for navigating these in the semester ahead is one of rotating focus.

01:32:03 Speaker_01
So choose one of these pillars and make it like a big focus and try to transform that part of your life. The other pillars, like know what you're working on, right?

01:32:15 Speaker_01
Make sure you're not neglecting them, but you're not trying to make major changes in them. When you finish overhauling one of those pillars, then you can say, okay, now here's the next pillar I'm going to overhaul this part of my life.

01:32:25 Speaker_01
This is not something you're necessarily doing all the time. But for me, it's a sort of midlife course correction that's that's been building up over the last couple of years.

01:32:33 Speaker_01
So, like, I'm starting with that constitution, physical health pillar that's getting a huge amount of my attention, and it will probably for the next six months or so.

01:32:43 Speaker_01
I will come out of that transformation with a completely different relationship to physical health and routine.

01:32:49 Speaker_01
So there's all sorts of stuff happening here in terms of doctors and fitness and trainers and the amount of time and the role like exercise and diet and a lot of changes and things are having to happen in my life and I'm giving it focus.

01:33:05 Speaker_01
I want to come out of this semester having really put a lot of focus on that and my new steady state being really different than it was before.

01:33:14 Speaker_01
The other pillars, again, it's like know what you're working on, but don't try to get crazy on multiple things at once. Then I'll choose another one of these pillars.

01:33:22 Speaker_01
Like now I really want to overhaul this part of my life and really think about it and put effort and energy into it and really make those changes. So I'm going pillar by pillar.

01:33:30 Speaker_01
This might be a year or multi-year process to really get through all of them. But this is one way you can tame the complexity of having all these different things that matter to you.

01:33:38 Speaker_01
And it's overwhelming to think about optimizing all of those at the same time. You're just going to collapse under too many changes at once.

01:33:45 Speaker_01
So I've really become more of a fan of, you know, it's important you have your plan that's reasonable for each of those. And if you're going to do a major change, only work on one pillar at a time.

01:33:54 Speaker_01
So that is what I'm really kicking off now during my surgery recovery. I'm using that

01:33:59 Speaker_01
All the stuff you have to do for that anyways, the physical therapy, the doctor's test, like use that as the, just run with that momentum and let's overhaul, uh, let's overhaul the whole thing, which is my way of saying by the time we get to the summer, I'm going to be looking like stars, scars guard in the Northman.

01:34:18 Speaker_01
And it's a lot of shirtless podcasting guys. I just want to just, I'm just going to put it out there right now. There'll be a lot of like shirtless podcasting as I look like scarred with the holiday lights, holiday lights, and killer delts.

01:34:30 Speaker_00
Which one's delts? The back. Oh, isn't these? What's the, what's shoulders?

01:34:37 Speaker_01
um Jesse and I are in shoulders of shoulders shoulders traps traps is kind of these yeah all right you know that's what scars guard did for the movie the northman that's a movie more people should see by the way uh of two movie recommendations northman came out during covid so it wasn't widely seen uh fantastic director the director i really like um it's a viking saga and alex alexander scars guard's the star of it and it's uh it's mythological

01:35:05 Speaker_01
right so it's not done in a completely realistic frame but it's a realistic treatment of viking sagas and viking mythology but the key thing is alexander skarsgård is my age the the character they built up his body so he has massive traps because he's like huge traps like they didn't want him to look you can't get a 42 year old to look too crazy they didn't want to be like super inflated with muscles because a viking wouldn't be so they chose this one muscle he's just like

01:35:32 Speaker_01
So anyways, I'm going to be doing Trap Style. The other movie I finally got around the scene, by the way, and I'll recommend, Fritz Lang's classic M. It's 1931. One of the early in the sound movie era, he like innovated the use of sound completely.

01:35:48 Speaker_01
It's also just brilliantly shot in other ways. It's a great movie. I really enjoyed it. It's on HBO Max, whatever it's called. It's on Max right now.

01:35:57 Speaker_01
So you can find it Fritz Lang's 1931 German semi-expressionistic classic M. It's hard to, here's why it's hard to find. If you search for M, It doesn't know what to do with that.

01:36:11 Speaker_00
So how do you search for it?

01:36:12 Speaker_01
I actually ended up typing in Fritz Lang. into the search bar in HBO Max and then it started bringing up Fritz Lang movies and then that's how I found it. Same thing when I use the Apple TV search over all of the different streaming services.

01:36:24 Speaker_01
If you just give it the letter M, it's like, no, you're clearly trying to write out a word that starts with M. It's like, what are the most popular movies that start with M? It'll never actually show it to you. So there you go. So that's what I'm up to.

01:36:37 Speaker_01
I've simplified these four pillars, a reasonable plan for each. but one that I'm going all in on trying to overhaul and it's getting a lot of my attention. So just sort of going and the other pillars, I'm still doing stuff.

01:36:49 Speaker_01
It's just like taking the foot off the accelerator, like have a reasonable steady state. This thing is important to me and I'm working on it and being intentional about it. But the big changes are happening in this one pillar.

01:37:00 Speaker_01
Then I'll move to the next pillar and having that foundation all the way that you can keep falling back on. Even if the pillar is faltered, that is what guides you day to day. That's a key, a key thing to have.

01:37:12 Speaker_01
That's what's going on in my semester plan. And that's my plan for my traps, which I think is what's most important here. All right, Jesse, I think that's it. Good episode. All right, Jesse Takeover, you learned everything you're wondering about?

01:37:27 Speaker_01
Yeah, I sure did. There we go. Can we do like 30 minutes on the Washington Nationals offseason to date? I'm getting worried. I'm getting worried about the lack of significant action.

01:37:40 Speaker_01
I am hoping that Bellinger going to the Yankees clears Christian Walker to make his way to the Nats, but I'm worried there's not going to be a major acquisition. And for this season, I don't know what that would mean for my fandom.

01:37:52 Speaker_01
So this is very important. That'll be our next episode, just 95 minutes on the Washington Nationals. All right, but until then, enjoy your holidays as a vacation for most people. Hopefully, you're hearing this episode.

01:38:05 Speaker_01
A lot of people miss it, but if you're listening, you should check out our outfits online because I think they're pretty sharp. Otherwise, we'll be back New Year's week with a new episode of the podcast. Until then, as always, stay deep.

01:38:20 Speaker_01
Hi, it's Kal here. One more thing before you go. If you like the Deep Questions podcast, you will love my email newsletter, which you can sign up for at calnewport.com. Each week I send out a new essay about the theory or practice of living deeply.

01:38:41 Speaker_01
I've been writing this newsletter since 2007 and over 70,000 subscribers get it sent to their inboxes each week.

01:38:49 Speaker_01
So if you are serious about resisting the forces of distraction and shallowness that afflict our world, you got to sign up for my newsletter at calnewport.com and get some deep wisdom delivered to your inbox each week.