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Episode: Ep. 331: Money and the Deep Life

Author: Cal Newport
Duration: 01:23:11

Episode Shownotes

One of the most important but often overlooked elements of cultivating a deep life is the role of money. In this episode, Cal takes a contrarian look at this topic, arguing that the monetary cost of your vision is not actually the most important metric. He then answers listener questions

and reacts to an article that many people sent him this past week.Below are the questions covered in today's episode (with their timestamps). Get your questions answered by Cal! Here’s the link: bit.ly/3U3sTvoVideo from today’s episode: youtube.com/calnewportmediaDeep Dive: Money and the Deep Life [3:17]- How can I tame my wandering mind when reading? [23:34]- How should I schedule time blocks as a real estate agent? [27:21]- How can I improve my quarterly planning? [32:33]- How can I balance intense motivation with finding inner peace? [38:29] - How can a jobseeker demonstrate actual productivity? [45:37]- CALL: Trying to do more with a newborn [53:34]CASE STUDY: A 39-year-old juggling school and work [1:00:18]CAL REACTS: ‘Brain Rot’ [1:12:51]Links:Buy Cal’s latest book, “Slow Productivity” at calnewport.com/slowGet a signed copy of Cal’s “Slow Productivity” at peoplesbooktakoma.com/event/cal-newport/Cal’s monthly book directory: bramses.notion.site/059db2641def4a88988b4d2cee4657ba?corp.oup.com/news/brain-rot-named-oxford-word-of-the-year-2024/youtu.be/mHU_K1o3B-4?si=Tsk1GEgzrhlCiaGw Thanks to our Sponsors:mintmobile.com/deepshopify.com/deepexpressvpn.com/deeppolicygenius.com/deep Thanks to Jesse Miller for production, Jay Kerstens for the intro music, Kieron Rees for the slow productivity music, and Mark Miles for mastering.

Full Transcript

00:00:11 Speaker_01
I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions, the show about cultivating a deep life in a distracted world. So I'm here in my Deep Work HQ, joined once again by my producer, Jesse. We missed you last week, Jesse. It's good to be back. Yep.

00:00:33 Speaker_01
We got the old gang back together. We got a good show. I'm going to talk about money. which we don't do that often. We got some good questions, we got calls, we got case studies, and I'm reacting to something cool from the internet in the final segment.

00:00:46 Speaker_01
A few quick pieces of housekeeping. First, as has become my habit during this end-of-year period, I like to update you on the latest things that my book, Slow Productivity, The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout, has won recently.

00:01:01 Speaker_01
So since our last episode, it was named to a best books of the year list at the Spectator and the Globe and Mail.

00:01:10 Speaker_01
It also was selected as one of the best business books of 2024 in the Porchlight Business Book Awards and the non-obvious book awards named it as one of the 100 best nonfiction books of the year. So accolades continue. This gave me an idea.

00:01:27 Speaker_01
We talk a lot at this time of year about, of course, Christmas gifts.

00:01:31 Speaker_01
But I'm going to introduce a new idea, the idea of New Year's gifts, gifts you buy for yourself or other people in the new year that you think will be helpful for any sort of self-improvement project that you might take on in the new year.

00:01:48 Speaker_01
Well, why don't we consider giving a signed copy of Slow Productivity to yourself or to someone that you think would be interested in it as a New Year gift. You can buy copies signed by me at peoplesbooktacoma.com.

00:02:03 Speaker_01
That's People's Book, T-A-K-O-M-A, Tacoma with a K dot com. That is the store down the street from the HQ and the exclusive place where I sign, I sell signed copies.

00:02:14 Speaker_01
By the time this episode plays, it'll be way too late for you to get a signed copy for Christmas. The new year, no problem. So if you want to check out this book or get a signed copy for your collection, check that out.

00:02:23 Speaker_01
I also want to pass along a shout out to Jerry Smith from the University of Alabama, Birmingham. who just bought a whole bunch of Deep Work copies of Deep Work for his team.

00:02:34 Speaker_01
So as always, I'm happy to shout you out if you bulk buy some of my books for your team. So thank you, Jerry. Quick technical note as well for reasons that are too boring to even enumerate. Uh, we've shifted the hosting platform for our podcast.

00:02:51 Speaker_01
This is going to create and has created a small number of technical, uh, snafus that we're working on. For example, it started automatically inserting pre-roll ads and archived episodes. So I think we fixed that.

00:03:02 Speaker_01
Now there'll be a couple of these snafus as we sort of migrate to that new platform. Um, so send anything you notice to jessiekhalnewport.com and thank you for your patience. All right, I think that's it, right, Jesse?

00:03:13 Speaker_02
Yeah.

00:03:14 Speaker_01
All right. Why don't we get started? The Deep Dive. We don't talk a lot about money on this show, but today I want to touch on the topic. Why?

00:03:26 Speaker_01
Well, if we think about it, money can play a critical role when it comes to the goal of cultivating a deep life in our digital distracted world. Now I want to focus here in particular on an idea that comes from my most recent book, Slow Productivity.

00:03:42 Speaker_01
In fact, I'm going to even read a little segment from this book and then we're going to analyze it because it's a small concept that I think could have a big impact on how you think about money and its role in crafting a deep life.

00:03:55 Speaker_01
All right, so let's start with the actual. I'm going to read to you. And then we'll figure out what it means. All right, so this is coming from my book. I am talking here about Paul Jarvis is his name. This is a case study.

00:04:09 Speaker_01
All right, Jarvis studied computer science in college, but also had a natural feel for visual design.

00:04:15 Speaker_01
During the first internet boom of the 1990s, these two skills proved to be the perfect combination for success in the emerging medium of website design. Jarvis produced several eye-catching sites on his own, which soon led to job offers.

00:04:27 Speaker_01
Look, Jesse, I'm holding up the book so that it's visible. They call that marketing. For those who are listening, not watching, I've realized if I hold the book up, you can see it on the camera because I'm a natural marketer.

00:04:38 Speaker_01
It was back to what I'm reading Jarvis produced several eye-catching sites on his own was soon led to job offers before long He was a busy web designer living in downtown Vancouver in a quote glass cube in the sky in quote He felt the normal pressure to grow a small business More revenue would mean a better apartment and more prestige But even though his growing skills would support this well-trod professional path his heart wasn't in it.

00:05:00 Speaker_01
I My wife and I had just had enough of the city, he recalled in a 2016 interview. We did our time in the rat race and we wanted something different.

00:05:11 Speaker_01
Recognizing that his freelance design work could be accomplished from any location, with an internet connection, they moved to the woods outside Tofino, on the Pacific shore of Vancouver Island, so his wife, who is a surfer, could enjoy the sleepy town's famed breaks.

00:05:25 Speaker_01
As they discovered, frugality is easy when you're living in the woods of Vancouver Island, as there aren't that many opportunities to spend money.

00:05:32 Speaker_01
When you're remote, there's nobody to do things for you, so you just have to do a lot for yourself, Jarvis explained.

00:05:38 Speaker_01
Freed from the need to increase his income to keep up with city expenses, Jarvis leveraged his growing skills to keep his work responsibilities flexible and contained. At first, he focused on freelance design contracts.

00:05:49 Speaker_01
Because he was in demand, he could keep his hourly rate high and his number of projects small.

00:05:55 Speaker_01
Eventually, tired of deadlines and client communication, he explored ways to further transform his notable skills and reputation to achieve even more slowness. All right. That is the story of Paul Jarvis. I want to pull a key lesson out of here.

00:06:09 Speaker_01
But first, let's all just get on the same page about the way on this show and in that book we think about cultivating a deep life.

00:06:17 Speaker_01
My approach is what I call lifestyle-centric planning, which says instead of just pursuing a grand goal that you hope will make everything better, Like make a ton of money, break into this particular industry, become really good at this hobby.

00:06:33 Speaker_01
Instead of pursuing a singular grand goal, lifestyle-centric planning says you should start by identifying your ideal lifestyle in all of its different elements.

00:06:44 Speaker_01
what it feels like, what it looks like, what it smells like, what your daily routine is like, where are you, what's it around, what's the rhythm of your days, all of the elements of your ideal lifestyle.

00:06:53 Speaker_01
You then evaluate different concrete instantiations of this lifestyle. So different concrete ways you might seek a life that has more of these properties of your ideal lifestyle.

00:07:03 Speaker_01
You pick one that seems most feasible and you make a plan to work towards it. That's lifestyle-centric planning. Now, when evaluating

00:07:13 Speaker_01
potential instantiations of your ideal lifestyle, a common metric that people think about is how much would this instantiation, so this particular concrete life, how much would it cost?

00:07:29 Speaker_01
What I want to argue here, and this is where the Jarvis story is going to point us, is that asking how much a given instantiation of your ideal lifestyle cost is not quite the right question.

00:07:42 Speaker_01
And the problem here is that it doesn't take into account what's involved in acquiring those needed funds. So let me give you an extreme example to try to make this a little bit more clear. All right, let's say, you know, I'm a professor here in DC.

00:07:55 Speaker_01
and I decide I want to move to rural Pennsylvania, and I'm going to homeschool my kids and live on a farm, and write in a barn, and that's what I really want to do.

00:08:06 Speaker_01
But there's no university there, so maybe my plan is, okay, but I can write from anywhere, so I'm going to be a freelance writer. I'll be a freelance writer, and we'll live in the farm and homeschool my kids.

00:08:19 Speaker_01
If I'm just looking directly at the question of how much would this lifestyle cost, this particular instantiation of my ideal lifestyle properties, I might be very pleased. Like, well, this is cheap compared to living in D.C.

00:08:31 Speaker_01
Maybe this is like half the expense of living in D.C.

00:08:35 Speaker_01
But that would be the wrong question, because it might turn out to earn that money, even though it's like half the money I would need to survive in D.C., because I'm making so much less money doing freelance writing, I might have to work all the time.

00:08:47 Speaker_01
In fact, my working hours might be even larger than they are in D.C. as a professor. And so the fact that it's cheaper doesn't necessarily mean that that lifestyle is going to get closer, that instantiation is going to get closer to my properties.

00:09:00 Speaker_01
Here's a more realistic example, because this is actually based off a real story. Imagine you're working, again, you're in D.C. and you're working at, you know, let's say the home office here for a big consulting firm, right?

00:09:12 Speaker_01
So you're working for one of the big consulting firms here in D.C. you get this idea, you have this idea of lifestyle vision that involves like more nature and slowness or whatever.

00:09:21 Speaker_01
And, and maybe you re you really want to do is move to like the upper peninsula of Michigan. Like your family's long had a cabin and you have this whole vision of what you're going to do up there.

00:09:30 Speaker_01
And you talk to your employer and they're like, yeah, that's fine. Because if you move over to this group, the clients for this group are all around the country. So it doesn't matter where you're based. Right.

00:09:38 Speaker_01
So maybe when you're in DC, you were dealing with like political government relations clients and they're all kind of local. They're like, you know what, if we move you over to like the energy group,

00:09:47 Speaker_01
These clients are all around, you have to be on site anyway, so it doesn't matter where you're based. So sure, if you want to move to the Upper Peninsula, move to the Upper Peninsula.

00:09:54 Speaker_01
Now again, if you just asked, great, how much does this particular instantiation of my ideal lifestyle cost? You could be led astray.

00:10:02 Speaker_01
Because again, almost certainly it will be cheaper to live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan than to live in Washington, D.C. But the issue with this plan is now you have to travel to all these clients.

00:10:14 Speaker_01
When you live up in the UP, you're not really close to an airport.

00:10:16 Speaker_01
You're gonna have to take a puddle jumper to Detroit, and then from Detroit, you're gonna have to take the longer flights, and you're gonna actually be working way more than you were in DC.

00:10:25 Speaker_01
So the fact that the lifestyle instantiation's actual cost is cheaper, in some sense, doesn't matter that much. So what's the better metric to use? I'm gonna argue it's what I call hour cost, H-O-U-R, cost.

00:10:43 Speaker_01
What this stands for is how many hours of work per week does a particular lifestyle instantiation require. That's actually the financial metric you care about when evaluating these different scenarios.

00:10:59 Speaker_01
When you use the hour cost in our prior examples, that's where you see, wait a second, moving to the farm in rural Pennsylvania has a really high hour cost.

00:11:06 Speaker_01
So maybe I'm going to keep looking at other instantiations to get that hour cost down, because the whole point of me moving to the farm is to spend more time outside and doing farm things and being with my kids, so I need a lower hour cost.

00:11:16 Speaker_01
You would have the same insight if you evaluate the hour cost of our Michigan example. You would say, man, the hour cost of my living, if we move up there, is going to like double. I'm going to be on the road all the time.

00:11:27 Speaker_01
What's the point of, again, living in a place where I have access to these other things that are important to my ideal lifestyle if I'm going to have many fewer minutes to actually take advantage of them? So our cost is very important.

00:11:42 Speaker_01
Now, it's important beyond, however, just this particular application. of making sure that a cheaper place to live doesn't actually make you work just as much, if not more.

00:11:52 Speaker_01
It has a more advanced application, which is what was demonstrated in the story of Paul Jarvis.

00:11:59 Speaker_01
So what Paul Jarvis discovered is that once you started thinking about hour cost, instead of just using this to help evaluate different scenarios for your life, it gives you a different way of thinking about your current work.

00:12:14 Speaker_01
And the insight that Paul Jarvis had is that as his skills got better, he had two choices. The common choice was, I will make more money. I'm in more demand. I can have a bigger list of clients. I can be a more prestigious firm. I can make more money.

00:12:37 Speaker_01
but that didn't necessarily by itself reduce the hour cost of living in Vancouver Island. And if anything, it could actually increase the hour cost because maybe he would have to travel more.

00:12:48 Speaker_01
So he said, my other option is I could just charge more money for what I'm already doing. I can get to the amount of money required to support this particular instantiation of my ideal lifestyle that I have in mind in Tofino and Vancouver Island.

00:13:02 Speaker_01
I can bring the hour cost of that lifestyle down. So instead of making more money, I'm gonna work less to make the same money. I'm gonna drive the hour cost down. And you don't think about this dynamic when all you think about is raw revenue, right?

00:13:17 Speaker_01
When all you think about raw revenue, in the worst case, you just begin trying to maximize that number. And now you're just in like the singular grand goal theory.

00:13:25 Speaker_01
In the best case, you just say, okay, I make enough to support this lifestyle instantiation. So let's go for it. But your hour cost might be much higher than it really needed to be Jarvis's lifestyle, which really is cool.

00:13:36 Speaker_01
And I go on in the book and I detail like what it's like on his property and the greenhouses he has and how he doesn't own an alarm clock and what their daily schedule is like.

00:13:44 Speaker_01
What made this instantiation really cool and close to the values that they identified when going through their ideal lifestyle is that he brought the hour cost of this lifestyle down. So that is kind of where the magic becomes.

00:13:58 Speaker_01
If you want to bring down the hour cost of your lifestyle, you can go somewhere cheaper, but that's only half the battle. You can also use your skills not to make more money, but to work less for the same money. That also drives down hour cost.

00:14:12 Speaker_01
So that's why I think it's a cool metric is because it opens up approaches to thinking about money in the deep life that you might not have otherwise thought about.

00:14:20 Speaker_01
You avoid traps, but you also find new opportunities to build a life that's even cooler than you might have imagined is possible. And it doesn't require, you know, it doesn't require some grand windfall.

00:14:34 Speaker_01
It doesn't require, like, what I really need is this book I write to become the next Atomic Habits.

00:14:40 Speaker_01
And then with the riches I have from that, now I can finally, like, live on an island and, like, work on my gardens and surf and only work a couple hours a day.

00:14:47 Speaker_01
It turns out if you care about hour cost, you find ways of getting those goals that don't require the windfall. It's, wait, I'm really good now. at web development.

00:14:57 Speaker_01
So I'm gonna triple my hourly rate, cut my number of clients by a factor of four, just have a few clients, but I have a really high hourly rate, boom, I'm good. The hour cost metric really gets you to some interesting places.

00:15:10 Speaker_01
A key point about this, it requires hard work to do any interesting things here. This is not a bypass around my maxim for my 2012 book, become so good they can't ignore you.

00:15:24 Speaker_01
Bringing down your hour cost is something you can do if you keep getting better. It has to do with how you apply your career capital as you get better. It's when you make the choice as you get more talented to say, I don't want more work.

00:15:38 Speaker_01
I want to do less work for the same amount of money. I want to go to three days a week and get two thirds of the income. Like it's using your skills to gain leverage.

00:15:47 Speaker_01
You still have to build up skills, but it's, it helps you aim your skills and directions that you might not have thought as possible if you were just using standard ways of thinking about money, your job and your life. Now, how does this connect?

00:16:01 Speaker_01
I like to connect this all back to the general theme of this show. which is more technology-centric.

00:16:08 Speaker_01
As we talked about a couple of weeks ago in my Tao of Cal episode, the general unifying principle for this show is to look at ways in which our Paleolithic brain and Neolithic culture conflicts with our modern digital environment and then come up with solutions to those disorders.

00:16:25 Speaker_01
So how does this fit into that general theme? Well, we talked about this a little bit in the Tao of Cal episode. One of the big disorders that comes from these mismatches is that as work gets more digital and abstract,

00:16:37 Speaker_01
So it's just moving information around on a computer screen. It's not tangible. It's not connected to a location. Um, it's often what you're doing is like disconnected even from like a particular outcome.

00:16:46 Speaker_01
It's emails and zoom and PowerPoint slides like this abstract thing we all do.

00:16:50 Speaker_01
And as our time outside of work increasingly gets colonized by algorithmically optimized distraction and diversion delivered through screens, life can turn into this like relatively dull slurry.

00:17:02 Speaker_01
of just, I don't know, I'm manipulating the digital and being manipulated by the digital until it's time to go to sleep.

00:17:08 Speaker_01
In that circumstance, which is unique, or at least superpowered by our current digital conditions, in that circumstance, we've lost track of how to build an intentional life, how to figure out what's important to you and to pursue those.

00:17:23 Speaker_01
We're too distracted, we're too numb, our lives are too abstracted and screen-mediated. for us to be good at intentional living. So that's why we talk about the deep life here, not just because it's a good thing to do. You only get one run, right?

00:17:38 Speaker_01
You only get one run here on this planet. Might as well make it interesting. but because it is a direct response.

00:17:43 Speaker_01
We have to get much more systematic about lifestyle crafting because we've lost all the cues and wisdom that we used to have about how to do that.

00:17:49 Speaker_01
All right, so that's how we can connect things like hour cost and lifestyle-centric planning back to the central theme of this show, which is the disorders of the modern digital environment. So there you go.

00:18:00 Speaker_01
Paul Jarvis, from the book I will hold up, teaches us about hour cost. I'm thinking now, so Jesse, you always discover these things when you write, and then you talk about what you write. Our cost kind of sounds like, oh, you are cost.

00:18:19 Speaker_01
You don't necessarily, on paper, it's perfectly clear. Yeah. But when you say it out loud, and I have this issue, like the word minimalism. Perfectly clear on paper. Actually kind of hard to say without practice, minimalism. But our cost with an H. Yep.

00:18:35 Speaker_01
My latest, my latest catchy idea.

00:18:36 Speaker_02
What was the monster book before Atomic Habits in the non-fiction?

00:18:41 Speaker_01
The Subtle Art, Mark Manson's book. That, that's even bigger than Atomic. Though Atomic might catch up. But I think Subtle Art, if not giving a bleep word, is, I don't know, it's like 12 million copies. It was insane. Yeah.

00:18:58 Speaker_01
You should see if you like that book, check out my, I went on Mark's show. Um, it's on YouTube. Yeah. He's got a cool YouTube show. Uh, I'll put a link in the show notes, filmed it out there in Santa Monica. Uh, it's nice out there, Jesse hanging out and

00:19:14 Speaker_01
Santa Monica and LA and, uh, rich rolls out in Calabasas and Mark Manson's in Santa Monica. Um, oh God, who else was I doing out there? Anyways, it's nice out there.

00:19:25 Speaker_02
Our costs might go up if you move out there though, because your expenses would go up.

00:19:29 Speaker_01
I think the hour cost of, yeah, I would have to write, if I do the math, like to live in Mark's house, I think I'd have to write four books a year. Is that sustainable? I'm just, I'm just going to take the graph on my end.

00:19:41 Speaker_01
Can I just extrapolate that up? If we just do four episodes of this show a week and I write like four books a year, what's the problem? I could live by the beach. All right.

00:19:52 Speaker_01
Uh, we got a bunch of cool questions coming up to cover a lot of topics, but first let's talk about a sponsor. I wanna talk about our longtime friends at Shopify. Look, nobody does selling better than Shopify.

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00:20:20 Speaker_01
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00:20:54 Speaker_01
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00:21:21 Speaker_01
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00:21:36 Speaker_01
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00:21:51 Speaker_01
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00:22:03 Speaker_01
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00:22:22 Speaker_01
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00:22:35 Speaker_01
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00:23:15 Speaker_01
Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. All right, Jesse, let's do some questions.

00:23:23 Speaker_02
Who do we got first? First question's from Joseph. Whenever I try reading a book within a couple of minutes, my mind drifts off to something slightly relevant or completely irrelevant.

00:23:33 Speaker_02
Is experiencing this, this just part of a process for a person who is cognitively, cognitively out of shape and trying to cultivate his ability to focus?

00:23:41 Speaker_01
Yes. Uh, you telling me, and I'm quoting you here, my mind drifts off to something slightly relevant or completely irrelevant within minutes of starting to read. That's the same from a cognitive perspective.

00:23:56 Speaker_01
That's the same as you telling me, uh, I get winded when I walk up the stairs. I'd be like, yeah, you're out of shape. No surprises. Also, the solution is easy. Get in better shape. You're going to have to eat better, you're going to have to exercise.

00:24:06 Speaker_01
That's all that's going on here, right? You're out of practice with reading and you're doing the cognitive equivalent of smoking by being on your phone all the time. So you've got to practice, practice, practice to get better at it.

00:24:18 Speaker_01
There's the obvious things to do. The biggest thing you can do is rewire your phone when you're at home. Treat your phone like an old fashioned hardwired landline by plugging it into an adapter in one place in your house when you get home.

00:24:30 Speaker_01
If you need to look something up, you go to where your phone is. If you need to check your text messages or do a text conversation, you go to where your phone is. If you want to listen to something, well, you can put on wireless headphones.

00:24:40 Speaker_01
So like if you want to listen to my podcast while you clean the dishes, that's fine. Use wireless headphones, but keep the phone wired. This means when you're at home, it cannot become a default distraction crutch.

00:24:51 Speaker_01
So you're watching TV or you're reading a book and you have that twinge of boredom. It's not there for you to pick up.

00:24:58 Speaker_01
And the friction of getting up and walking to another room and picking it up where it's plugged in, that's too high for you to do that, so you overcome that moment.

00:25:04 Speaker_01
And in doing so, every time you overcome that urge and keep doing what you're doing, that's like doing another push-up in the physical space. That's like walking another quarter mile. It adds up. You're gonna get into better shape.

00:25:15 Speaker_01
All right, so rewire your phone. That's a big one. Two, keep pushing yourself to read books. Start with books that you absolutely are fascinated by, Right. So whatever that is for you, it could be sports nonfiction.

00:25:27 Speaker_01
Like, I just read the Agassiz Memoir open. Mm. Yep. That's fun. So if you're in like sports nonfiction or like techno thrillers, I've read three so far for Thriller December, just dumb, fun, techno thrillers. Just don't read

00:25:43 Speaker_01
Eruption by Michael Crichton and Patterson. Don't read that one.

00:25:49 Speaker_01
But whatever it is, or maybe it's like romance fiction or business advice books or self-help books like David Goggins, whatever it is, start with books that you love and you're most likely to keep reading because all you're practicing here is just the literal act of keeping your eyes on the page and going.

00:26:05 Speaker_01
So whatever makes that easier is going to be better. You can read Ulysses later. Let's just get used to books. So read more but start with stuff that you really like and then spend more time doing thinking walks on a regular basis.

00:26:16 Speaker_01
Go for a walk without a phone. You have no choice but to get used to your own head. What's in the world around me? What am I thinking about? Having thoughts, exploring thoughts. You just get more comfortable in your own interior cognitive space.

00:26:31 Speaker_01
is gonna make it much easier to tackle hard thoughts later in books, all right? So do those three things, you'll get better. It takes time, but you'll get better. Rewire your phone, read more books, but start with fun ones, and do thinking walks.

00:26:41 Speaker_01
You'll get stronger, Joseph.

00:26:43 Speaker_02
The ghost writer for The Agassi was J.R. Moringa, right? He wrote The Tender Bar. Oh, really? Pretty sure. He wrote an article about it in The New Yorker not too long ago either.

00:26:53 Speaker_01
Oh, yes. But that was that the article about he also goes there did the ghostwriter for Prince Harry's. Yes. It's the same guy. Mm-hmm. Interesting. So he's good at capturing like emotional realities. It's interesting book man.

00:27:09 Speaker_01
Agassiz had a did you read the tender bar? No, I heard it's great though.

00:27:14 Speaker_02
That's good. There was a movie too.

00:27:15 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:17 Speaker_02
Well, anyways, um, what do we got next? Next up is Adam. I'm a real estate agent. Receive calls, emails, and texts randomly throughout the day. The faster I respond, the happier the client.

00:27:28 Speaker_02
What is the best process to be effective in my work if I still need time blocks for non-distracted work?

00:27:34 Speaker_01
A real estate is a good case study. Funny story about real estate and distraction and deep work. When I bought when we bought our current house in like 2000, 2018, we bought our current house in Tacoma Park.

00:27:51 Speaker_01
I remember because at some point when you're buying a house, you have to like disclose assets and like income that's coming in. And it's obviously for me that looks different than most people because I make a lot of money from like books.

00:28:07 Speaker_01
So it's not, here's my W2 and here's how much money I make a year. It's like, I just got this huge check the other day because it's like the advance payment for like some new book or whatever. So my, my real estate agent,

00:28:19 Speaker_01
figured out, oh, this guy writes books. He wrote a book called Deep Work.

00:28:24 Speaker_01
After we handed in those financial disclosures, then she began talking to me about how distracted she was with clients always trying to contact her and what her life was like and what it's like being a real estate agent. So it was, Adam, I understand.

00:28:35 Speaker_01
I've heard this story before. My rule here, my general rule is that clarity trumps accessibility. The problem you're solving for your clients is that they encounter something that they need your input on. Like, what about this listing?

00:28:53 Speaker_01
Is this something we should be looking at? Or is this price, I'm thinking our price for the house we're selling is too low. Like, you know, you have something that you want their feedback on.

00:29:02 Speaker_01
Because this is outside of like your normal cycle of work, it's also something that you're gonna pretty much be keeping track of on your own in your own head until you get an answer back.

00:29:10 Speaker_01
So you kind of would just like an answer right away so you don't have to worry about this anymore.

00:29:15 Speaker_01
But you can solve their problem just as easily if they have clarity about how they're going to hear back from you and how they're going to get information.

00:29:21 Speaker_01
And if they have clarity, they know what to expect and you meet those expectations, they'll be just as happy.

00:29:28 Speaker_01
So in the lack of any expectations, just get back to me right away because otherwise I don't know how long it's going to take to hear from you. And what if you forget? And what if I forget?

00:29:35 Speaker_01
Just get back to me right away so I don't have to think about this. But imagine instead you have like a really clear, very optimistic forward policy where you say, I'm here for you.

00:29:46 Speaker_01
Here's my number for texting, in fact, like you have a question, you see a listing, you think I should care, send it to me by text, that's even faster.

00:29:53 Speaker_01
Every two hours, I clear out my text inbox, so you will, I guarantee you'll hear back from me within two hours, at the most, when you text me. That actually solves the same problem, because there's clarity about the policy here.

00:30:07 Speaker_01
Your client knows, if I send this text, like I send this listing to my agent, I can trust I'm going to hear back from the agent and I'm going to hear back from the agent really soon, right? Like within an hour or so.

00:30:21 Speaker_01
So like really timely, I can let this go. I don't have to keep track of this anymore. I'm going to hear from you in like an hour or so. That's fine. So if you have clarity, you don't have to be completely accessible.

00:30:34 Speaker_01
And now you've built yourself like a nice system. Like, yeah, every two hours I sit down and I go through my text messages and I answer them all in one batch. I'm less distracted.

00:30:42 Speaker_01
And in between I can work on the other things I'm doing without having to be distracted. And most people end up okay. The 5% rule applies here, which says about any policy like this, about 5% of people won't like it.

00:30:53 Speaker_01
That is a fair tax to pay for reclaiming your attention. For those of you who are not real estate agents, this same thing applies if you have any sort of client situation or even a situation where you're dealing with a boss.

00:31:05 Speaker_01
People only want you to reply immediately if they have no other structure expectations for when they're going to hear back.

00:31:11 Speaker_01
With no other structure expectation, it's up to them to keep track of this in their head until they hear from you, so they'd rather you be as quick as possible. If they have other expectations, oh, I'll hear back at noon.

00:31:22 Speaker_01
This is when they don't do email in the morning. They have an office hours that afternoon, I can just call them and I know they'll be there and I'll get the answer.

00:31:29 Speaker_01
You're solving their problem of I know what to do with this and I don't have to keep track of it. So expectations often trump accessibility, or clarity, that is, often trumps accessibility. That would be, actually, that'd be a bad shirt.

00:31:45 Speaker_01
I think if we put that on a shirt, you can make it an acronym. It could be like one of your Russian spy acronym. An acronym would be better.

00:31:52 Speaker_01
I think if I put it on a shirt, the problem is accessibility also means, you know, like from disability studies, like making more services accessible to a wider range of people.

00:32:00 Speaker_01
So saying like clarity, Trump's accessibility, it kind of seems like a, an anti. like an anti-disability statement or something like that. But yeah, acronym. See, Clarity Trumps C-C-T-A. That means a lot of other things. Call to action? Yeah.

00:32:17 Speaker_01
Yeah, I don't know about that. CTA all day. ETA all day.

00:32:22 Speaker_02
All right, what do we got next? Next question is from Vishal. I'm a knowledge worker and a young father. I started my journey with David Allen's Getting Things Done framework and successfully emptied my mind into a digital tool. It's working.

00:32:33 Speaker_02
However, I'm having a hard time coming up with quarterly goals as I'm so focused on getting things done week over week. How do I think in terms of a quarter as it relates to my personal and professional life?

00:32:44 Speaker_01
Well, this can be the danger of getting things done is it feels like

00:32:51 Speaker_01
It's a totalizing system, like it's an approach to productivity, but I often argue that it's just one piece of many that you need to actually fully take control of your time and your obligations in time.

00:33:03 Speaker_01
So what getting things done gives you is this notion of full capture. This is its biggest idea.

00:33:08 Speaker_01
It was an idea that David adapted from Dean Atchison, who was a business consultant who Alan knew and had pioneered this idea, and Alan then developed it further into the Getting Things Done methodology.

00:33:22 Speaker_01
Full Capture says, and it's correct, do not keep track of obligations only in your head. If it's only in your head, it's going to generate stress because your mind worries about forgetting it, and it's going to take up cognitive resources.

00:33:34 Speaker_01
because your mind is so focused on not forgetting it that those are cycles that can't be spent doing something else.

00:33:40 Speaker_01
So everything you need to do needs to exist in a system that your mind trusts you're gonna check on a regular basis and it won't be forgotten. This gives you peace. This reduces stress. And that I think is the brilliance of Allen's system.

00:33:53 Speaker_01
But then Allen goes on and says, let me tell you now how to control your attention. which is what you need to do in your day is basically have this list of things you need to do, organized by context, like places you might be.

00:34:09 Speaker_01
And then whatever context you're currently in, just pull up the list and start executing things.

00:34:15 Speaker_01
And there's this real sort of like, he calls it mind like water, this almost like factor, factorization of knowledge work of like, you're just cranking widgets. executing next task and you don't have to think about anything.

00:34:27 Speaker_01
Just execute, execute, execute.

00:34:28 Speaker_01
It was a way to reduce the stress generated by overload that Alan was correctly pointing out in the early 2000s was becoming a real issue as we had the email revolution and they got much worse with the mobile and then smartphone computing revolution that followed.

00:34:43 Speaker_01
That's not, however, a sufficiently advanced system for controlling your attention. So what I argue is you need full capture for all the reasons that David Allen says, but you need to couple this with multi-scale planning.

00:34:57 Speaker_01
So you gotta make decisions about what to do with your time at multiple scales. What's my goal for the quarter? How does this influence my plan for the week? How's that influence my plan for the day? How's that influence what I'm doing right now?

00:35:09 Speaker_01
So you have this link of connections that expands in scope so that your actions right now has at least some sort of tangential connection to your bigger picture goals.

00:35:18 Speaker_01
So you need something like time block planning in the day, but time block planning has to be supported by a weekly plan that you do every week, and that weekly plan has to be informed by your quarterly plan.

00:35:27 Speaker_01
That combined with the full capture of David Allen's system is what I think is table stakes for sort of non-trivial complexity knowledge work today. I wish it wasn't the case, by the way. I had this conversation with Oliver Berkman.

00:35:40 Speaker_01
I wish it was the case you didn't have to do that in most knowledge work jobs. I'm jealous of the fact that him, for example, just doing writing full-time doesn't have to plan like that. That's probably more natural.

00:35:52 Speaker_01
But in a standard job where you have a desk and an email inbox and more than a few Zoom invites coming at you every day, this is sort of table stakes for not losing your sanity and for building career capital.

00:36:03 Speaker_01
So if you're struggling with your quarterly planning, that's just practice.

00:36:06 Speaker_01
What I would argue is what's more important is that you're actually following the framework of multi-scale planning is more important than the content of those plans at first. That will come if you build some sort of quarterly plan.

00:36:19 Speaker_01
And it really could just be keep up with the big contract I'm working on this quarter, right? It could start simple. And then you build an actual weekly plan and look at that quarterly plan when you do so.

00:36:29 Speaker_01
and then you build a daily time block plan and look at your weekly plan when you do so. The rhythm of working at multiple scales is what matters.

00:36:36 Speaker_01
Those plans will become more complicated and more meaningful through experience, so I wouldn't worry about it. But if you don't have the full framework in place, it's not gonna work very well.

00:36:44 Speaker_01
If you're running a David Allen system of just churning through next actions based on your context, and you're somewhere else, like I wanna write a quarterly plan, there's no connection between those two. And so that's not gonna be as successful.

00:36:56 Speaker_01
So use multi-scale planning, care about the mechanics at first more than the content, and the content of those plans will improve with experience. I need to look at my quarterly plan more. You should look at it every week. Yeah.

00:37:10 Speaker_01
And then, you know, we have a big update coming up. I mean, I recommend people do an update during the holiday at the end of December because you have like a week off at least, which is like a good time to think about the winter quarter.

00:37:21 Speaker_01
So like if you're hearing this podcast, you should be planning to do a big update of like your winter quarterly plan within like a week or so after hearing this. And you have a personal and a professional on, right? I do.

00:37:33 Speaker_01
I've been messing around recently with combining them. So we'll see how that goes. So I'm doing a big update right now. And in the current edition of the update, so the drafts of my new plans, I'm combining the personal and the professional.

00:37:49 Speaker_01
So we'll see how that goes. Part of the way, so this is, all right, this is kind of in the weeds. I often have, it's like hypertext plans.

00:37:58 Speaker_01
So like in my, I call them strategic plans instead of quarterly plans, but in my strategic plan, there might be a link to another document that elaborates like a piece of it. So I was like, as long as I'm doing that, I probably should just have one.

00:38:12 Speaker_01
one unified plan, uh, because I can just link to another document if I want to have more, like a more detailed strategy laid out for like our media empire or something like that.

00:38:21 Speaker_01
Um, so I am, I am thinking about combining them, but yeah, traditionally I've had a person on a professional. All right. Who we got next?

00:38:28 Speaker_02
Next question is from sir. Tech. My sole focus has been to work hard and build a career in aviation. The idea of achieving, achieving more constantly occupies my mind. No matter how hard I push myself, I feel like it's never enough.

00:38:43 Speaker_01
Well, Sir Tiger, it's a common issue, and it's an issue that comes out of using as your philosophy or strategy for constructing a good life, the grand goal strategy.

00:38:55 Speaker_01
The grand goal strategy says you pick something that's important to you, you put all of your energy into mastering that thing, and in that success, your life will become good. That's what's going on now.

00:39:06 Speaker_01
You've implicitly put all of your eggs in the aviation basket, and because of that, your mind is like, well, this is going to be the key.

00:39:12 Speaker_01
to us feeling like our life is meaningful, is succeeding in this goal of aviation, then why are we doing anything else?

00:39:19 Speaker_01
So of course your attention keeps coming back to this, and you're having a hard time enjoying or being present for anything else because you have set this up in your mind as the key, the thing you were doing to make your life better.

00:39:32 Speaker_01
What is the contrast? As we talked about in the deep dive, it's lifestyle-centric planning.

00:39:36 Speaker_01
Or you say, what I want to build is a vision of my ideal lifestyle and all of its elements, not just professional, but in all of its elements, what is the general properties of my ideal lifestyle?

00:39:47 Speaker_01
And then you work backwards asking, how do I get there? And you do that by coming up with different instantiations, like different concrete scenarios that move you closer to that. And you see which of these is most feasible.

00:39:56 Speaker_01
And then you begin pursuing the one you choose very systematically. When you do this, almost certainly aviation will be a big part of the instantiation that you care about. Is that my phone, Jesse? Guys, I gotta take a phone call. So I'll be back.

00:40:14 Speaker_01
Would that reduce the quality of the show if I took phone calls and checked social media in the middle of it? Now, the reason why my phone, there's actually a reason why my phone is on.

00:40:24 Speaker_01
I was expecting a call back from my doctor's office about something and I forgot that I had it. I had it with me and on so that I could take that call when it came and then I forgot I had it with me.

00:40:35 Speaker_01
Uh, people don't know that like in front of me right now is a screen that I've split between it's a, it's tech talk and YouTube shorts. And the whole time I'm talking to people, I'm just furiously swiping. That's where the money is made.

00:40:50 Speaker_01
watching TikTok videos. Now going back, aviation will probably be a big part of whatever instantiation you hook into because you, you, you really like it. There's elements you like of it.

00:40:58 Speaker_01
So probably your, your lifestyle centric plan, um, the instantiation you, you come up with will involve like a aviation career.

00:41:05 Speaker_01
But when you look at the, all of the properties of your lifestyle that might control, for example, or influence how that aviation career looks like because of the other properties that are important to you, Where in the country are you flying out of?

00:41:15 Speaker_01
What type of flights are you doing?

00:41:17 Speaker_01
Is it, you know, working your way up at one of the big airlines, or is it doing like some private jets, or is it doing... Like, your navigation of the possibilities, even within the world of aviation in your career, will be influenced when you're thinking about the impact of your various paths through that career, their impact on the other properties you care about in your ideal lifestyle.

00:41:38 Speaker_01
So lifestyle-centric planning is the approach. Now, once you've done the lifestyle-centric planning, a couple things happen. A, you're just much more likely to pursue and enjoy the other stuff that's part of that plan right away.

00:41:52 Speaker_01
You're not gonna push the stuff aside that you've just identified as important just to focus on this one thing, because they're part of what you want in your life. The time with friends, the outdoor hobbies, the community leadership, whatever it is.

00:42:03 Speaker_01
Like, well, that's part of my plan, so I'm gonna give that attention now. It makes no sense for me not to do that just to work on this one thing, because this one thing, the aviation career, is just part of my bigger vision.

00:42:14 Speaker_01
The other thing it does is it reduces this pressure from, I gotta just crush this, to, I wanna succeed in implementing my plan.

00:42:24 Speaker_01
And what you need to do in aviation to implement the particular instantiation you care about might be challenging, but not crazy hard. And so you're very comfortable with a reasonable amount of work towards it.

00:42:34 Speaker_01
The final thing you can do is once you know what the particular target you're aiming for in aviation and why, is you can care about process.

00:42:40 Speaker_01
Once a quarter when you're doing your quarterly plan, go back and review my process for working on this career, like how I'm studying, how I'm training, how I'm trying to like, how is that going?

00:42:51 Speaker_01
Just like I advise students do at college where I say, my famous advice was to study like Darwin. Always go back and evaluate all the things you're doing as part of your academic activities.

00:43:01 Speaker_01
Get rid of the stuff that's not working and prove the stuff that is. You evolve. your study habits over time. Do the same thing with your process.

00:43:09 Speaker_01
Okay, here's a good process that I think is going to keep me on track for my goals in aviation, which is part of my bigger lifestyle vision. Let's try this for a quarter. At the end of the quarter, I will evaluate and maybe we'll make some changes.

00:43:20 Speaker_01
Then during the quarter itself, you can just execute. Yeah, I'm just focusing, I have a process I execute, here's how much time it takes. I just trust this is right. If it's not right, within a few months, I'll notice that and we'll change it.

00:43:31 Speaker_01
It's not the stakes aren't so high. And again, you're able to pay attention to things outside of it. So you become more process focused as well.

00:43:37 Speaker_01
Lifestyle-centric planning is really at the key of navigating this tightrope that we talked about in the in-depth episode, I guess it was last week. Man, my time might have been the week before. Jesse, when was the in-depth episode with Kendra?

00:43:53 Speaker_01
Did that come out last week? Yes. Okay. So last week's in-depth interview episode with Kendra Adachi, we're talking about... Well, when they hear this, it's going to be Monday. So two weeks ago, 10 days ago, that's right. That's right.

00:44:07 Speaker_01
10 days ago, the in-depth episode with Kendra Adachi. Oh, we have another one of these coming out too. I like these in-depth things. Yeah. Yeah. We have another cool interview coming up.

00:44:16 Speaker_01
Anyways, I keep diverting myself because I'm looking at TikTok on my tablet right here. We got into this tension between greatness and everything else.

00:44:24 Speaker_01
and the pursuit of greatness and why that can be very motivating, but also the other stuff that matters in life. Navigating that tension is critical for cultivating a deep life. Lifestyle centric planning helps you do it.

00:44:36 Speaker_01
Singular grand goal theory doesn't. If you say this is all that matters is succeeding this career, how are you ever going to do anything else? It's illogical.

00:44:44 Speaker_01
But when getting to this place in this career by this point as part of this overall vision for a lifestyle, you're much more likely to say, well, I have a process I trust for getting there.

00:44:53 Speaker_01
And this process says I'm done working now, so let me go to enjoy something else tonight.

00:44:57 Speaker_01
All right, so Sirtak, give lifestyle-centric planning more of a focus in your aspirations, and I think you're gonna find, I don't wanna say balance, but you're gonna find something more sustainable. All right, what do we got next? We have our corner.

00:45:12 Speaker_01
Ooh, excellent. This is where each week we play a question that is related to my book, which I'll hold up because I'm an awesome marketer, Slow Productivity. We call it the Slow Productivity Corner, and we do it so that we can play this theme music.

00:45:34 Speaker_01
All right, go ahead. What's our slow productivity question of the day?

00:45:37 Speaker_02
It comes from Howard. I'm a product manager who was laid off in September. In light of how many, so many businesses use pseudo productivity to measure work, how do I as a job seeker show actual productivity?

00:45:50 Speaker_01
Well, Howard, that's a good question because it addresses pseudo productivity as introduced in the Globe and Mail's, one of the Globe and Mail's best business books of 2024, Lower Productivity.

00:46:02 Speaker_01
I don't know if I'd focus on that as my main accolade I give the book, but I'm trying to give it more accolades. Let me, first of all, give a key reminder for the audience who didn't read the book.

00:46:11 Speaker_01
Pseudoproductivity is the idea that visible activity is a proxy, a reasonable proxy for useful effort. It's what most knowledge work managers actually manage for because it's too difficult to manage in the moment for actual productivity.

00:46:26 Speaker_01
they focus on pseudoproductivity. The more activity I see you doing, the better. And I argue in the first part of the book why that became common and why it's actually also a disaster. All right. But here's what's important about this question.

00:46:41 Speaker_01
What's happening to Howard now, and Howard, I'm sorry to use you as like a cautionary tale, but what's happening to Howard now is something that you should keep in mind every day of your current knowledge work job.

00:46:52 Speaker_01
You look at what you're actually doing, what you should ask, is, is what I'm doing right now going to help me get the next job? Because this is the reality of pseudo productivity, and it's what makes it sort of insidious. That's not how you say that.

00:47:08 Speaker_01
Is that how you say that? Insidious? That's not right.

00:47:11 Speaker_02
I was just going to look it up.

00:47:13 Speaker_01
I pronounced that dead wrong.

00:47:16 Speaker_02
I was literally just about to look it up.

00:47:18 Speaker_01
I mean, I can spell it. Again, I'm a writer, not a speaker. Uh, that's what makes it dangerous. Let's use simple words here. Insidious. That's not how you say that. Well, anyways, insidious, maybe insidious. No. Oh my God. We're going down a rabbit hole.

00:47:34 Speaker_01
Now we're going to get a lot of emails on this. Oh my God. We have to distract people from this. They don't email us about this. Brandon Sanderson wrote name of the wind. So I'm trying to distract the audience. So they forget about insidious gates.

00:47:49 Speaker_01
I just keep blocking on things. But here's what makes pseudoproductivity dangerous, is that within a current job, it feels like what's giving you good attention. It feels like this is what matters. Visible activity.

00:48:02 Speaker_01
My boss sees I respond to those emails so quickly. I am on that Slack channel so fast, like you're not even done sending your Slack message and you see the dots that indicate that I'm typing back in response. Right.

00:48:16 Speaker_01
In the moment, this feels like the most important thing you can do to help your career. But as soon as you're left that job and someone says, why should we hire you? None of that matters. Pseudoproductivity doesn't actually directly create value.

00:48:31 Speaker_01
You are not going to impress an employer if you say, my average interval between inbox checks is only four minutes. I was a Slack champion. I was on Slack all the time.

00:48:43 Speaker_01
I forced us, I was the employee that forced us to have to upgrade our Zoom package, enterprise package, because I did so many Zoom meetings.

00:48:49 Speaker_01
None of that actually matters to an employer that you're trying to get hired by because none of that directly produces value. So that is what's dangerous about pseudoproductivity.

00:48:58 Speaker_01
In the moment, it feels like the most important thing you can do for your career But from a distance, it's meaningless. Right? So the stuff that is going to make it easier for you to get a job is less comfortable in the moment.

00:49:12 Speaker_01
because I'm not answering this email right away. I've said no to more things.

00:49:16 Speaker_01
I keep an active waiting list, so my active projects are much reduced at any one moment, but I'm finishing stuff that has objective value, the stuff I can put on my resume and talk about. I finished this project. I introduced this new technology.

00:49:28 Speaker_01
I innovated the way that we do this approach, and it increased customer conversions by 15%.

00:49:32 Speaker_01
That's the stuff that matters when you're trying to get hired for your next job, and that stuff has nothing to do with how fast you answer emails, how quick you're on Slack, or how many Zoom meetings you do.

00:49:41 Speaker_01
So there's like a lesson in this, right, is that pseudo productivity is empty calories from a business value perspective. Feels good in the moment, but doesn't give you what you need in the long term.

00:49:53 Speaker_01
All right, Howard, now that I'm done using you as a cautionary tale, let's get to your actual question. The key is to focus when you're trying to get hired on concrete value that you're gonna add to their life.

00:50:05 Speaker_01
There's this cool book written by Jeff Fox years ago Jeff Fox, who wrote how to how to become CEO, which was the inspiration for my first book, how to win at college.

00:50:17 Speaker_01
which I pitched to Jeff's agent, or no, it was Jeff, the editor who bought that book for Jeff, who became an agent, Lori, my longtime agent. I pitched to her, I said, I wanna write how to become a CEO, but for college kids.

00:50:29 Speaker_01
He then wrote a follow-up book called Don't Send a Resume about getting hired. And he had this sort of extreme idea that's more relevant to sales than other places, but I think the core of the idea is critical. He said, here's how you get hired.

00:50:40 Speaker_01
Forget your resume, quantify how much money you're gonna bring in above your salary. Right? I'm going to cost you this much money in salary. I'm going to bring in this much money. That's the, the second number is this much larger.

00:50:53 Speaker_01
So by hiring me, you're getting this much money, but that's ultimately what matters. Now in sales, you can actually do that calculation. You can say, I expect to bring in $3 million in sales per year.

00:51:06 Speaker_01
Here's my salary and the, so that this is how much profit you're going to make off. I'm going to increase the bottom line by this much.

00:51:13 Speaker_01
But you can hint at this in non-sales jobs as well by focusing relentlessly on the things you can do that directly brings in value to the company. That's what matters.

00:51:24 Speaker_01
Not generic skills, not your people skills, not your character, not what you're owed. None of that really matters to them. What matters is, does our bottom line number, our profit number, get larger or smaller once we have you on board?

00:51:39 Speaker_01
We have to take away the expense of your salary, is the value you bring push us more to the other side, right? Money as a neutral indicator of value. So that's what you want to focus on. Here's what I did at my last place, here's what I can do here.

00:51:52 Speaker_01
Let's see, Howard is what, a product manager? All right, so here is how I have a product management methodology that increases the value of what we produce. I can handle these types of projects, which you need.

00:52:09 Speaker_01
These types of projects are higher profit margin. I know how to manage those, so you could immediately expand the pool of your projects that are here. I can expand this business you have on this side.

00:52:21 Speaker_01
I know how to double the speed with these things get done because I use like Newportonian non-overload style workload management.

00:52:29 Speaker_01
Whatever it is, what you want to pitch when you're trying to get hired is how much more money they will have after they hire you. And you want to remember that. How much money am I bringing in?

00:52:41 Speaker_01
And how is this current activity helping the bottom line I bring in? That's really the right meta mindset for evaluating how you're spending your day.

00:52:49 Speaker_01
And it goes back again to the dangerous nature of pseudoproductivity is that it feels so useful in the moment, but it does nothing in the long term that really matters.

00:52:59 Speaker_01
So, Howard, I appreciate your question because it gives us an excuse to talk about that bigger principle about the real subtle danger of pseudoproductivity. All right, should we play the theme music again? Yes. All right.

00:53:19 Speaker_01
Sufficiently relaxed from insidious gate. That's just how I'm going to pronounce it from now on. I don't care. That's how I pronounce that word. I'm old enough now that I can decide how I want to pronounce words. All right. What do we got next?

00:53:31 Speaker_01
We have a call. Ooh, let's hear this.

00:53:34 Speaker_00
Hey Kel, last time we chatted at your meetup in Washington this past March, I mentioned that I had my first child on the way and he's here now.

00:53:42 Speaker_00
Not gonna lie, it was a lot to handle at the start and I even took your advice from an earlier episode to take some time off. I actually took a month off work and business to help with the new transition.

00:53:52 Speaker_00
Now that I'm back at work, how do I continue to work on being so good I can't be ignored whilst raising a new son? I have a feeling your main advice might be to just scale back and go a lot slower, which I've started to do as per slow productivity.

00:54:06 Speaker_00
But I'll be honest, going this slow makes me feel like I'm not moving at a fast enough pace that I'm used to. And maybe I need to be more patient. I'm not sure.

00:54:16 Speaker_00
Any advice you can offer a new father who wants to be both an excellent husband, excellent father, and a skilled data analyst with multiple business goals ahead of him? Looking forward to your answer, and keep up the amazing work you do.

00:54:30 Speaker_01
Well, good to hear from you again. I guess he's probably talking about, we had a couple of meetups in Washington. We had the politics and pros.

00:54:36 Speaker_02
He came down from Toronto. It's Kobe.

00:54:38 Speaker_01
Oh, from Toronto. Gave me a copy of a Michael Crichton book. Yeah. Kobe, good to hear from you. Okay. So I would say new kid at home, first of all, there's two different phases.

00:54:52 Speaker_01
The first four months in my sort of three times experience here, the first four months is basically all hands on deck, right? So first four months is kind of survival mode, scale back. It feels like in the moment forever.

00:55:04 Speaker_01
Like I guess I have just stepped out of the world of work. I guess I have given up all ambitions. This is it. My life has changed, but four months is nothing. In retrospect, it's nothing.

00:55:16 Speaker_01
So just give yourself a break and be much more useful to your partner for about three to four months. All right. After four months, you're not in survival mode anymore.

00:55:26 Speaker_01
I typically use that threshold because it's the point at which you have consistency in schedule, especially if you're careful about it. This is like when in the U.S.

00:55:34 Speaker_01
context, a lot of maternity leaves have ended, sleep training is done, you have your childcare, your childcare setup for the next couple of years is kind of in place and you can begin to build like, Oh, this will be my routine for a while.

00:55:46 Speaker_01
In those first few months, you're not in your routine that you're going to have for a while. So it's, that's why I think of that as like all hands on deck. Okay.

00:55:53 Speaker_01
So after three to four months, I do recommend, yeah, you scale back longer term, slow down for a bit. This is a big transition, but I think this helps people who struggle with this. Don't just messily do less.

00:56:09 Speaker_01
use this as an excuse to clean up what's going on. So after you get out of that first all hands on deck period, so I don't want to go back to super busyness. Let me start cleaning out the stuff I don't, I don't want to be doing in general.

00:56:20 Speaker_01
Maybe this is a good time to say no more X, no more Y. Like I want to take this off my plate to focus more on this.

00:56:26 Speaker_01
Maybe I want to tighten up my processes a little bit more so that the work I'm doing is more contained or more predictable or a little bit less interruptive. has less of an overlap with the other stuff that matters in my life.

00:56:39 Speaker_01
This is an important transition that most people go through with their working life when you're younger. Like why am I demanding, you know, that have other people have more structure and how we work together.

00:56:48 Speaker_01
I have time, I'm around, I just want to be useful. I'm on my way up. But then once you have your first kid, now you can start to say, okay, I also care about me as well and how like work affects me. So clean things up, get rid of the dead weight,

00:57:03 Speaker_01
get in place like better processes.

00:57:06 Speaker_01
The other thing I recommend so that that ambition itch doesn't turn into like an all out metaphorical rash, as part of sort of cleaning things up and simplifying what you're working on and getting your schedules tighter and not taking on too much work, make sure you have a slow but steady project in there that's just straight up ambition.

00:57:30 Speaker_01
slow but steady. So something where there's not a deadline, no one's waiting for this. It's not a source of stress, but that you're making regular progress on some sort of bigger timeframe goal that you're excited about.

00:57:43 Speaker_01
And maybe prioritize that like first thing, like first thing I do every morning after we, you know, get the kid to daycare or whatever's going on is I spend this like first hour working on learning this new skill. That's going to be part of my vision

00:57:58 Speaker_01
for two or three years from now of like mastering the skill and completely changing my work life. Or we're going to move to Vancouver Island and this is going to be a thing that's built off of.

00:58:05 Speaker_01
So have this aspirational thing you're working on that scratches your ambition itch in a way that's going to be much more sustainable in this moment than just trying to take on lots of stuff. You don't want to be overly busy.

00:58:17 Speaker_01
You want to avoid overload for at least the first year if possible. All right. So let me put all this advice together. First three to four months, all hands on deck. It's okay. It's going to go faster than you think.

00:58:27 Speaker_01
rest of that first year, you still want to be going slower than normal. It's a huge adjustment. You're also, you're changing you. You're a dad now. That's like a completely different type of role you're adding to your life.

00:58:39 Speaker_01
But to help support that so you don't just feel like you're giving up business or being irresponsible, clean up, get rid of dead weight work that you've been meaning to get rid of.

00:58:47 Speaker_01
Clean up the processes for what remains and keep that ambition itch scratched. by having a slow, but steady, non-urgent, but exciting project that you're working on regularly. Those things all together, that's the right way.

00:58:58 Speaker_01
I think as like a new dad to go through this sort of period of, of new, new kiddom.

00:59:05 Speaker_01
I mean, I remember this with all three kids, but especially the first two in that first three to four month period, like walking my dog and having this thought like this is chaotic now, but don't extrapolate now is what your life is like.

00:59:19 Speaker_01
Think ahead to four months, the four month mark, where we are going to have our, we're back to a new routine. And that new routine is going to be different, but sustainable. We're getting there. And it's going to be better when we get there.

00:59:32 Speaker_01
And it always was. So I remember clearly thinking about that. I don't really remember our third at all. By that point, it was just too chaotic. Two other boys who are older than I think. It's all a blur to me. I don't know.

00:59:44 Speaker_01
I know he was a baby at some point. And I know when COVID came, I don't know. I just, he started a podcast. Yeah. Well, that was, he was older then he was older.

00:59:57 Speaker_01
Well, I guess he went to, man, I just, I just, I was so busy with the other two kids by then that the, the baby stuff was going on, but I was just like driving toddlers places and then COVID came. All right. Got a call. Ooh, we have a case study.

01:00:18 Speaker_01
So case studies where people write in to talk about how they have applied the type of ideas we talked about on the show in their own life. If you have a case study you want to share on the air, send it to jesse at calnewport.com.

01:00:30 Speaker_01
Today's case study is from Sarah. Sarah says, I hope this message finds you well. My name is Sarah and I'm a commercial photographer based in Texas. Right. As a photographer, The freedom of working for myself has its perks.

01:00:45 Speaker_01
No tedious busy work or endless meetings like when I worked for a company. I've been able to set a high enough rate that a few shoots a month keep me afloat.

01:00:52 Speaker_01
The flip side, though, is that without a boss or external structure, I fall into the habit of only doing the bare minimum to get by. I hardly market myself, never pitch, and don't prioritize networking.

01:01:03 Speaker_01
While inbound inquiries have kept me going, I know there's potential for so much more, probably double what I'm making now.

01:01:11 Speaker_01
With my current workload averaging just 15 hours a week, I have so much free time that I can take month-long sabbaticals going on meditation and therapy retreats.

01:01:18 Speaker_01
While this might sound like a dream setup, I often feel like I'm at the mercy of whatever comes my way rather than actively shaping the life I want.

01:01:25 Speaker_01
I lack the discipline to work on my business rather than just in it, and I know there's so much untapped potential. With all this extra time, I decided to go back to school to pursue a degree in mental health counseling.

01:01:37 Speaker_01
I'm about halfway through my three-year program. I'm passionate about healing and want to make a slow transition into this field.

01:01:44 Speaker_01
While commercial photography feels like it has a limited shelf life for my age, I can see myself running a private therapy practice well into my fifties and beyond. All right.

01:01:54 Speaker_01
So I'm going to cut that there, uh, because it's like, there's some observations I want to make about this. So Sarah, thank you for sharing.

01:02:01 Speaker_01
There, there are some positive things I want to say about this and some like lessons slash advice to give on the positive side. I love the idea here of there's intention and how Sarah's crafting her life. I like that she's thinking ahead, right?

01:02:20 Speaker_01
She's thinking about in her 50s, in her 60s, okay, why being a commercial photographer might not work then, but if she gets a therapy license now, that is highly autonomous. And I know several people my age are going through this now.

01:02:34 Speaker_01
That could be highly autonomous because once you're licensed, you can decide how many clients you have.

01:02:40 Speaker_01
And so there's, it's, it's one of these, uh, there's only so many jobs in which you can transmute like education, like an undergrad degree and a graduate degree into something with a high hourly rate and a lot of autonomy.

01:02:52 Speaker_01
Therapy, mental health counseling is like one of those things. So I, so I liked that way that you're thinking.

01:02:58 Speaker_01
I also liked the fact that your lifestyle, you have a lifestyle right now where you're working, you know, until you went back to grad school, 15 hours a week.

01:03:05 Speaker_01
and showing that's a possibility, depending on where you live and what your expenses are and if you're careful. All of that's really cool.

01:03:12 Speaker_01
The thing I would add, like the lesson I would draw out of this and the advice I would give is that I would lean in more into a lifestyle-centric planning approach. It sounds like to me from the reading this that this is more ad hoc.

01:03:26 Speaker_01
Like this is, photography is fine, I like doing it. It doesn't take you much time. It seems to meet my expenses.

01:03:33 Speaker_01
So you can go and you're able to, it's flexible enough, you can do other things like these retreats, but you also have this vague unease of, I should probably be doing more of this. I could probably double this.

01:03:44 Speaker_01
I feel guilty that I'm not like in creating this business or making it longer. I'm going to grad school because like, I think maybe it'll be better to be a counselor in the future.

01:03:54 Speaker_01
All of these instincts can be structured and understood better in the framework of lifestyle centric planning. Figure out now your ideal lifestyle in this sort of decade that you're in right now. Do the same exercise for your 60s and 70s.

01:04:11 Speaker_01
What are the elements that matter? This will give you a lot of clarity about things like the therapy practice that you're thinking about creating. It'll allow you, for example, to be like, does this make sense?

01:04:21 Speaker_01
And if so, I know exactly what I need out of this. Let me talk to real people and see, is that possible? And if it is possible, what do I have to be doing now to set that up for 10 or 15 years from now?

01:04:29 Speaker_01
So make sure that you have evidence-based pursuits here, not just dream-based pursuits where I just sort of, I don't, a lot of people in this situation don't want to talk to real people because they don't want to know the reality because the reality might mismatch with their dream of what's possible.

01:04:41 Speaker_01
Get the real information. It will also help you better make sense of what's going on right now. Is it a problem? that you're working 15 hours a week and not 30? I mean, what are you not able to do in your lifestyle-centric plan?

01:04:54 Speaker_01
Is there something you can't do that that will unfold? Like, you might turn out like, actually, this is great. The amount of money I'm making now is enough because my instantiation of my lifestyle-centric plan survives on it.

01:05:05 Speaker_01
Or maybe you realize, oh, I'm really held back if I made this much more. then it would unlock all these other things. I could move to this part of Texas from this part, and I could start doing this thing that matters to me and be closer to family.

01:05:17 Speaker_01
Maybe you'll realize, like, if I had this much more dollars, I could have a much better instantiation. It would give you clarity. And with this clarity could come clear plans.

01:05:28 Speaker_01
So if you found out, like, actually, if I could make this much more money, I could shift to this instantiation of my ideal lifestyle, which is gonna be much better. Now, hearkening back to our deep dive from today,

01:05:38 Speaker_01
You could start doing hour cost computations. Well, with the current rate I do in professional photography, the hour cost of this is pretty high.

01:05:48 Speaker_01
But if I increased my rate, I could get the hour cost down to this, which would make this lifestyle instantiation much better. How do I get my rate up to this? Oh, I got to learn this skill and that skill. I got to invest in this equipment. Good.

01:05:59 Speaker_01
I have a plan to go after. Or, okay, I have this instantiation of my ideal lifestyle vision, which I'm not going to be able to get to with commercial photography. I see a way with counseling I could get there. And I have hard evidence.

01:06:10 Speaker_01
Like if I had this practice with this many clients and I did it this way, I could do it. Okay, this will work. Now I have my crystal clear vision. How do I get to this type of practice as quickly as possible?

01:06:21 Speaker_01
On the other hand, if you're like, this is fine what I'm doing, it gives you structure for what else to do with your time because you've identified the other things that matter to your ideal lifestyle vision so that you can, with confidence, do these things with your time that you're not working and not just feel generally like, I guess I should work more or go on a month-long meditation retreat.

01:06:38 Speaker_01
You can have a structure to your everyday life that's meaningful and intentional. So you're in a perfect position, Sarah, for lifestyle-centric planning to take this great setup you have and all these options you have

01:06:49 Speaker_01
and structure them and get the most out of them, both right now and in the future. So fantastic case study, but also a fantastic example of where lifestyle centric planning could make a big deal going forward. All right.

01:07:02 Speaker_01
Well, we got a final segment coming up where I react to the internet, but first hear from another sponsor. Look, the holidays are here.

01:07:11 Speaker_01
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01:07:49 Speaker_01
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01:08:23 Speaker_01
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01:08:29 Speaker_01
Well, we don't know for a fact, Jesse, that Santa doesn't have a 2048-bit quantum qubit computer that could break factoring problems at a sufficient scale to break public-key encryption. He probably has one. He probably does.

01:08:43 Speaker_01
I am going to assume Santa might have a 2048-qubit quantum computer with which he can run Shor's quantum factoring algorithm, therefore foiling the public-private-key encryption of Rivest, Shamir, and Edelson.

01:09:00 Speaker_01
which is to say, we gotta take down Santa. All right, but outside of Santa, no one will be able to actually observe what you're doing when you use ExpressVPN. I like ExpressVPN because it's easy to use. It takes just one click.

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01:09:37 Speaker_01
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01:09:56 Speaker_01
Only during an ExpressVPN ad do I feel okay being sufficiently nerdy to talk about Qubits and Shor's algorithm. My people out there who know what both those things mean know what I'm talking about.

01:10:07 Speaker_01
Now, but I also want to talk about our friends at Policy Genius. The heart of holiday traditions is family, but what happens when you're gone? If I disappear and there's some candy canes crushed nearby, look to the North Pole.

01:10:25 Speaker_01
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01:10:38 Speaker_01
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01:10:49 Speaker_01
A lot of people in my situation, you know, approaching middle age, young family realizes they don't have enough life insurance. And why not? It's not expense. Term life insurance is not that expensive. It's because of complexity. Where do I even start?

01:11:03 Speaker_01
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or click the link in the description to get your free life insurance quotes and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com slash deep questions. All right, Jesse, let's go to our final segment.

01:12:44 Speaker_01
So one of the final segments we'd like to do here on the show is me reacting to stuff that you, my listeners, have sent me that have been making the rounds on the internet.

01:12:52 Speaker_01
Here's something that many of you sent me, which is that Oxford has named our annual word of the year For 2024, Jesse, you might be surprised to learn that word is insidious. And they say that's how it's pronounced. Anyone else who says it's wrong.

01:13:12 Speaker_01
Now, the word of the year is brain rot, which actually created some controversy because grammar people are saying that's two words. I thought it was two words. Two words. But I guess the word of the year can be two words. Whatever. This is interesting.

01:13:27 Speaker_01
Let me read a little bit about it. I have the article up here on the screen for those who are watching instead of just reading. Here's from Oxford University Press.

01:13:35 Speaker_01
Brain rot is defined as the supposed deterioration of a person's mental or intellectual state, especially viewed as the result of overconsumption of material, now particularly online content, considered to be trivial or unchallenging,

01:13:49 Speaker_01
Also, sometimes something characterized as likely to lead to such deterioration.

01:13:53 Speaker_01
Our experts noticed that brain rot gained new prominence this year as a term used to capture concerns about the impact of consuming excessive amounts of low-quality online content, especially on social media.

01:14:06 Speaker_01
Its usage has increased by 230% between 2023 and 2024. That's a cool concept, brain rot. It's a good way of describing What I argue you have to avoid en route to cultivating a deep life in our modern digital environment.

01:14:23 Speaker_01
This is one of the biggest disorders of the modern digital environment is that these empty calorie, highly alluring algorithmically optimized digital diversions that billions of dollars of market capitalization invested behind them being irresistible conflict with our paleolithic brains.

01:14:44 Speaker_01
And our brains rot in some sort of symbolic way when we immerse them in the world of the digital trivial. And it's not just a bad habit, it changes your brain. It rots your brain. I love this term, it rots your brain.

01:15:01 Speaker_01
It makes your experience of the world worse, it makes your understanding of yourself impoverished, and it makes the subjective feeling of your day-to-day degraded. So what is the solution to brain rot? I talked about it earlier. Rewire your phone.

01:15:19 Speaker_01
Plug it in when you get home. If you need it, go to where it is. Don't have it with you as a default crutch. Read more books. Spend more time walking and reflecting outside with no digital connected devices with you. Do those three things in 2025.

01:15:35 Speaker_01
So instead of brain rot being the word of the year, it can be like brain recovery, which is absolutely possible. when you disconnect from the constant drip of the digital. So brain rot, what would you have chosen for the word of the year?

01:15:51 Speaker_01
I was thinking about this. Brain rot's pretty good. No, what do you think? Slow productivity is two words. If we're gonna do two words, I'm in business. If we're able to do two words, I'm in business. I'm the king of two words. Yeah, slow productivity.

01:16:09 Speaker_01
Or as we now refer to it, Globe and Mail's best book of the, what is the word I got? One of the Globe and Mail's best business books of 2024, Slow Productivity. That should be a word of the year, I agree, I like that.

01:16:23 Speaker_02
Actually, there's a term that a lot of young kids use, sigma. What does that mean? I give a young kid a lacrosse lesson, he always talks about that, like it's sigma. Do your kids use that term?

01:16:34 Speaker_01
You tell me sigma, and I'm thinking of the Greek letter, Like, I'm thinking capital sigma, which I'd use for summation, or lowercase sigma, which I'm thinking about standard deviation.

01:16:43 Speaker_01
Is it possible that the student you're giving lacrosse practice to was referring to a statistical standard deviation? The people I give lessons to that's, that would be what they're, that might be what they're.

01:16:56 Speaker_02
He uses it all the time. I was like, and he said it's what's the con by everybody.

01:17:00 Speaker_01
What's the content? Give me like a context. It's kind of like cool. So you would say, for example, here's a new way to hold a lacrosse stick. And he would say like that Sigma kind of, yeah. All right, hold on. I'm looking it up.

01:17:14 Speaker_01
If we use more slang, Jesse, people will think we're much cooler than we are. All right, Sigma is a slang term used by Generation Alpha to describe a person or thing as cool, confident, or independent.

01:17:27 Speaker_01
A Sigma is a lone wolf who prefers their own company and isn't trying to be the most popular. They are confident but humble and earn respect through their actions rather than words. Oh, we could start using this.

01:17:38 Speaker_02
It's used a lot in the younger generation or Generation Alpha.

01:17:42 Speaker_01
I'm a Sigma, right? I'm going to call myself a Sigma. Is it Sigma to refer to yourself as Sigma? What I'm going to refer to myself as is Sigma squared, right? Because if you, if you square Sigma, well then you're super Sigma. Yeah.

01:17:57 Speaker_01
So that's how, you know, I'm Sigma is because I'm going to put my, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to put my Sigma designation in a power law. I'm like, yeah, man, I'm like two to the constant factor times Sigma, Sigma lone wolf.

01:18:11 Speaker_01
Am I right, buddy? And then we do like you do a wolf call. I'm glad we're figuring out how to be cool. All right, here's another article about it. Reddit, what does Sigma mean in middle school slang? Ooh, look at this answer. Interesting.

01:18:29 Speaker_01
Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, right wing machismo BS. Laugh in their face and tell them, to can it or get it written up. Oh, so there's like a controversial interpretation. This is a fun discussion. Now I'm into this.

01:18:43 Speaker_01
If eighth graders are comfortable enough around you to use ironic, goofy slang or respect you enough to be nervous to tell you that the Urban Dictionary definition of it, you've hit that sweet spot, carry on shoulder.

01:18:53 Speaker_01
Nah, this is toxic little boy BS and needs to be addressed. JP and AT, these at work. Someone else says, I swear to God, this Tate guy is some folks Oh my God, look at this. They're really getting into this. Here's what I'm learning from Sigma.

01:19:07 Speaker_01
And someone else is like, it's a harmless, ironic joke and telling eighth graders not to say it is most def not going to make it work. Oh, so I bet. Okay.

01:19:17 Speaker_02
It's even before eighth grade. Cause the kid I gave a lesson to is in six or fifth.

01:19:20 Speaker_01
Here's what I think is happening. So I think there was like originally a way it was used sort of like manospherically, somewhat like straightforwardly, like maybe it's better than being an alpha, it's being a sigma, right?

01:19:33 Speaker_01
So that's like the Andrew Tate reference, right? Like guys our age with like big biceps doing videos about like whatever. And that younger kids are ironically using the term because it's...

01:19:45 Speaker_01
Cringe worthy the way that it was being used so you can kind of like reappropriate it and billion sigma Is that what maybe that's what's going on here?

01:19:56 Speaker_01
But this is complicated enough, I guess we shouldn't call ourselves Sigma We will invent our own We invent our own term. I know all the Greek letters. I do a lot of mathematics Well, I think we should be we could be epsilon or my fraternity in college.

01:20:09 Speaker_01
Yeah, it could be gammas psi PSI, amen, that's really sigh of you. All right, we're gonna invent our own term so it doesn't have all this baggage. We are epsilons, which means like a small degree of improvement over a term.

01:20:28 Speaker_01
All right, so forget sigma, the new thing generation alpha is to be epsilon and that's our word of the year, I guess. And what I'm really learning reading Reddit about this is how much brain rot you get reading Reddit about things.

01:20:42 Speaker_01
This is like people fighting about Andrew Tate and going back and go do something useful. Be a leader in your community. Read a book, learn something hard. This is crazy. The internet's crazy. Brain rot indeed. All right. That's enough nonsense.

01:20:55 Speaker_01
Uh, thank you everyone for listening. I guess next week. Yeah. This is going to be like a Christmas Eve episode. What's what's a week from Monday. Yeah. The 20. All right, we recorded the week before.

01:21:09 Speaker_01
We'll have to, maybe we'll have to get a, we'll get some decorations in here for that one. We'll go crazy on that one. No one listens to the Christmas episode because they're all off on vacation. So like, we're going to go crazy on that one.

01:21:18 Speaker_01
I'm going to think of something interesting to do. We are going to get Sigma in here with our Christmas episode, which I guess means like, we'll be shirtless and doing preacher curls.

01:21:30 Speaker_01
I want to start every podcast with me doing preacher curls and looking up and saying, oh, I didn't see you come in. Oh, hi there. I didn't see you come in here. for growing. All right, everyone. Thanks for listening.

01:21:40 Speaker_01
We'll be back next week with a crazy episode. And until then, as always, stay deep. Hi, it's Cal here. One more thing before you go. If you like the Deep Questions podcast, you will love my email newsletter, which you can sign up for at calnewport.com.

01:22:02 Speaker_01
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01:22:18 Speaker_01
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