Ep. 330: Tackling Social Media’s Hidden Dangers AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Deep Questions with Cal Newport

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Ep. 330: Tackling Social Media’s Hidden Dangers) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Go to PodExtra AI's podcast page (Deep Questions with Cal Newport) to view the AI-processed content of all episodes of this podcast.

Deep Questions with Cal Newport episodes list: view full AI transcripts and summaries of this podcast on the blog

Episode: Ep. 330: Tackling Social Media’s Hidden Dangers

Author: Cal Newport
Duration: 01:17:05

Episode Shownotes

Australia recently passed a world-first law banning social media use for kids under the age of 16. In this episode, Cal looks carefully at the arguments in favor and against this new law before detailing his thoughts. He then connects this specific argument to all of our larger battles to

tame technology’s impact in our lives. This is followed by listener questions and a review of the books Cal read in November.Below are the questions covered in today's episode (with their timestamps). Get your questions answered by Cal! Here’s the link: bit.ly/3U3sTvoVideo from today’s episode: youtube.com/calnewportmediaDeep Dive: Tackling Social Media’s Hidden Dangers [2:08]- How do I find friends now that I don’t use social media? [37:13]- Is continuous hard activity desirable? [42:47]- How does Cal research his books and articles? [46:49]CASE STUDY: A Phone Addict Seeks a Fresh Start [51:08] - How does the idea of the idea of the deep life “Longer Short Way” connect to Slow Productivity? [1:02:07]FINAL SEGMENT: The 5 Books Cal Read in November, 2024 [1:10:34]Links:Buy Cal’s latest book, “Slow Productivity” at calnewport.com/slowGet a signed copy of Cal’s “Slow Productivity” at https://peoplesbooktakoma.com/event/cal-newport/Cal’s monthly book directory: bramses.notion.site/059db2641def4a88988b4d2cee4657ba?cnn.com/2024/11/28/australia/australia-passes-social-media-law-intl-hnk/index.htmlapnews.com/article/australia-social-media-children-ban-safeguarding-harm-accounts-d0cde2603bdbc7167801da1d00ecd056Thanks to our Sponsorsmybodytutor.comcozyearth.com/deepdrinklmnt.com/deepbyloftie.com (use code: DEEP20)Thanks to Jesse Miller for production, Jay Kerstens for the intro music, Kieron Rees for the slow productivity music, and Mark Miles for mastering.

Full Transcript

00:00:11 Speaker_00
I'm Kyle Newport, and this is Deep Questions, the show about cultivating a deep life in a distracted world. I'm here at my Deep Work HQ. No Jesse today.

00:00:25 Speaker_00
I have an unexpected medical procedure coming up that was going to conflict with our regularly scheduled recording time, so I figured I would just get on the mic early and get this episode in the can while I was still operating at a full 100%.

00:00:39 Speaker_00
It is hard, I have learned, to record the podcast without Jesse. In addition to his presence on the mic, he also does all the technical aspects of the show. This is true. What you're hearing now is my third attempt to get this recorded starting.

00:00:58 Speaker_00
I have two failed attempts before this. So Jesse, we all miss you and can't wait for you to come back. A quick, I guess, timely note.

00:01:06 Speaker_00
I'm recording this after Thanksgiving, so we're in that sort of Black Friday, Cyber Monday sort of extended period of online purchasing. So I would be remiss if I didn't suggest you consider buying my books, Low Productivity.

00:01:19 Speaker_00
I believe on Amazon it's discounted. I don't know. I saw that somewhere. Quick inducement. Last week, I mentioned that it had been named by The Economist as one of the best books of 2024.

00:01:30 Speaker_00
This week, I can announce it also made it to NPR's Books We Love list for 2024. So the best books of the year list are piling up, which means you should pile this book onto your gift list. I'm a terrible marketer, folks. I don't know why I try this.

00:01:44 Speaker_00
Anyways, let's get into it because without Jesse, I just want to rock and roll. We got a good show. We're going to dive into a new law about social media and try to extract some general lessons from that about technology in our lives.

00:01:56 Speaker_00
We got some cool questions. And at the end of the show, I will be doing the books I read in November. All right, so let's get started with our deep dive.

00:02:09 Speaker_00
Just the other day, Australia passed a law, the first in the world of its kind, to ban social media for children under 16 and to offer stiff fines to social media companies if they don't put in the right safeguards to make this ban possible.

00:02:21 Speaker_00
I want to get into this law today. I'm going to go through the main arguments from both sides. So I will quote a key player both for and against this law, and we will go through these arguments together piece by piece.

00:02:32 Speaker_00
And then we will conclude where I stand on this or similar types of legislative action.

00:02:38 Speaker_00
The final part of this deep dive, I will then connect what's going on in Australia with all of our general struggles to control the role of technology for better or for worse in our lives. All right, let's start with some details.

00:02:51 Speaker_00
I'm going to read a couple of quotes from a recent CNN article about the law, just so that we are all starting from the same page with information about what's going on. So let me read here.

00:03:01 Speaker_00
Australia's Parliament has passed a world first law banning social media for children under 16, putting tech companies on notice to tighten security before a cutoff date that's yet to be set.

00:03:12 Speaker_00
Under the new law, tech companies must take reasonable steps to prevent underage users from accessing social media services or face fines of nearly 50 million Australian dollars, which is about 32 million US.

00:03:26 Speaker_00
It's the world's toughest response yet to a problem that has seen other countries impose restrictions, but not hold companies accountable for breaches of a nationwide ban.

00:03:34 Speaker_00
The ban is expected to apply to Snapchat, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, Reddit, and X, but that list could expand. All right, so that's just a quick summary. A couple other points.

00:03:45 Speaker_00
The bill was backed by most members of Australia's main opposition party, which is the Liberal Party. It does have some opposition, including some fierce opposition from independents and some of the smaller parties, including the Greens.

00:03:58 Speaker_00
In terms of the Australian public, it has pretty large majority support. All right. So a strong social media ban for users under 16. Let's start for the arguments in favor.

00:04:13 Speaker_00
So the best summary I could find about the arguments in favor of this bill came from a quote from the Prime Minister of Australia, Anthony Albanese, who in that same CNN article I mentioned before said the following, we know that social media can be a weapon for bullies, a platform for peer pressure, a driver of anxiety, a vehicle for scammers, and worst of all, a tool for online predators.

00:04:39 Speaker_00
This sentence packs in a lot of different arguments, so it's worth briefly unpacking into its constituent parts. So first of all, he's talking about social media being a weapon for bullies.

00:04:52 Speaker_00
So what's being captured here is that there is something about the pseudonymous communication that happens through these platforms, where you're talking to sort of visual, digital abstractions of individuals, typically just through text,

00:05:07 Speaker_00
not actually interacting with real flesh and blood individuals who are in front of you, who you can see and read their body language, feel the full force of social capital cost of what you're saying. It's pseudonymous, it's abstracted, it's digital.

00:05:19 Speaker_00
We know, as anyone who has spent any time looking at, say, political discussion online knows, this leads to a lack of the standard interpersonal inhibitions that typically structure our interactions with other humans.

00:05:32 Speaker_00
And it can really lead to extreme behaviors. It can lead to behaviors that in person be considered really antisocial.

00:05:36 Speaker_00
And among adolescents, the young adolescents and pre-adolescents who are very sensitive to social interactions, social media based platforms, online interactions can really lead to bullying or all sorts of sort of think of it as verbal, I don't want to say violence, but negative outcomes.

00:05:57 Speaker_00
All right. It's a platform for peer pressure, he says. I believe what he's alluding here is the fact that pre-adolescents and adolescents are very vulnerable to groups and peer pressures.

00:06:07 Speaker_00
And there is a lot of niche online communities that can be very persuasive. Their brains aren't used to the persuasiveness of these online communities, and it can push them into weird or destructive behaviors.

00:06:18 Speaker_00
What we have to think about that these online communities is that you have this sort of digital competition that is being mediated by curation algorithms and engagement driven metrics.

00:06:30 Speaker_00
which it's as if you have hundreds of thousands of small, weird, cultish niche groups, all competing in some giant American Idol style competition. And those that are the most compelling win.

00:06:42 Speaker_00
So now when you're the 13 year old and you're on TikTok and kind of browsing things or you're on Instagram sort of browsing things, it's not just that you're going to find yourself in the niche communities that are going to sort of suck you in and maybe change your behavior in drastic ways.

00:06:57 Speaker_00
But you're being subjected to the A-team, the all-star team of niche cultish communities, because just the fact that you were being shown them in your feed means that they have survived these algorithmically mediated tournaments.

00:07:09 Speaker_00
So it's used to be, hey, maybe you ran into a weird crowd or a cult at the airport when you were growing up.

00:07:15 Speaker_00
Now it's like, no, we've scoured the country to find niche communities that are most effective at grabbing people's attention, and this can cause lots of problems.

00:07:24 Speaker_00
Like one of the issues that these niche communities has exacerbated in pre-adolescence and adolescence we know is eating disorders.

00:07:31 Speaker_00
You can fall into these communities that are very compelling and very much glamorized, very dangerous eating, disordered eating behavior.

00:07:40 Speaker_00
Some of the small number of very powerful lawsuits right now that have been waged against META are specifically aimed at the damage caused by eating disorder communities online and what it did to kids. There's a lot of other things as well.

00:07:54 Speaker_00
All right, a driver of anxiety. The evidence here is clear. I've read the evidence over the counter evidence, over the counter to the counter evidence, over the counter to the counter to the counter evidence.

00:08:04 Speaker_00
We have multiple independent streams of data that exactly matches self-reports. You cannot ignore self-reports. That's probably the strongest signal of all. That heavy social media use among young people makes them more anxious.

00:08:16 Speaker_00
And there's a lot of drivers for that, including these other issues that we're mentioning here.

00:08:22 Speaker_00
The scammers and online predators, this seems to be a real focus if you read the press coverage in Australia around the bill because it's the most concrete.

00:08:31 Speaker_00
When you put people on a pseudo anonymous open access global conversation platform, bad people are going to find the kids on there. Right. It's like letting your kids free at 2 a.m. at the port authority.

00:08:45 Speaker_00
Okay, most people there are probably pretty normal, but there's the weirdos and they're probably going to find you, especially if you're walking around looking like a little bit clueless. So because of this, we are getting, uh, yep.

00:08:56 Speaker_00
Online predators is kind of obvious. The scamming thing is becoming a real issue. There has been a slate of suicides, for example, recently that comes from these sexploitation scams.

00:09:09 Speaker_00
where the scammer will meet you online and get you through various platforms to send them compromising or embarrassing video or photos. And then they say, yeah, we're going to send this to your parents unless you give us like $60,000.

00:09:23 Speaker_00
Kids can't handle that and they feel trapped and terrible things happen. So it's very dangerous to put people who are young into, again, an open access global pseudo anonymous conversation platform.

00:09:39 Speaker_00
So everything that the prime minister is arguing here, I think every one of these is actually like a real valid point and a real valid concern. There's some histrionics sometimes when we're talking about technology and kids. This seems not that.

00:09:54 Speaker_00
This list of issues, I'm like, yeah, this is a solid list of real issues that have real harms that come from kids or young adolescents using social media. All right, so what is the opposition saying? So we have some quotes here.

00:10:11 Speaker_00
I'm going to pull from I found the best summary of the opposition came from an AP article I found that sort of summarizing what the various opposition said. All right, so let me quote this.

00:10:21 Speaker_00
Critics of the legislation fear that banning young children from social media will impact the privacy of all users who must establish they are older than 16.

00:10:29 Speaker_00
Opponents also argue the ban would isolate children, deprive them of the positive aspects of social media,

00:10:35 Speaker_00
drive them to the dark web, discourage children too young for social media to report harm, and reduce incentives for platforms to improve online safety. All right, there's some legitimate arguments here.

00:10:47 Speaker_00
I'm gonna take these one by one, not necessarily in that order, but let's take these one by one. So the first issue here is with the age gating mechanism. How do we know who kids are? All right, there's a couple arguments surrounding this.

00:11:02 Speaker_00
One is this a technical argument, This is really what the social media companies are pushing. They're saying this is too hard. It's not really our responsibility. We don't know how to do this. You're not being clear enough.

00:11:13 Speaker_00
I would say this is the main lobbying pressure point they applied in Australia, which was the companies.

00:11:19 Speaker_00
We don't want to argue about the harms or lack of harms, but we need more time and more studies, basically trying to slow walk the bill because we don't know technically how to do this.

00:11:29 Speaker_00
And so don't give us these technical demands and just say, do it or we're going to fine you $50 million Australian dollars. So they're trying to slow walk it.

00:11:37 Speaker_00
I think this is a general response that the social media companies are having right now to this style of legislation, including COSA in the US, which is slow walk bills that have regulatory teeth until you can do enough type of controls or options on your own that people will feel like, I think they have enough stuff in place now, we don't need laws.

00:12:00 Speaker_00
The other concern about this is the privacy concerns. It's a little confusing. In the US, some of the advocacy groups that are pushing these concerns are also heavily connected to the social media companies themselves.

00:12:11 Speaker_00
There's a lot of complicated backstory when it comes to who's arguing what. But let's just take the concerns in abstract and separate them from who's pushing them. So there's a privacy concern. Forget the kids.

00:12:27 Speaker_00
I now, as an adult, have to prove that I'm 16 or older, and that's a privacy concern. Do I have to upload my license and show a social media company?

00:12:35 Speaker_00
Now a social media company knows who I am, and now I guess they can track what I'm saying, or they can punish me in the real world for things I'm saying online, so there's privacy concerns around it. Ultimately, I think these are solvable issues.

00:12:52 Speaker_00
There's a couple different ways to think about it. One is there's, and this is what the Australian legislatures are doing. It's a rip the bandage. Like, look, you got a year figure, figure something out. Good enough. That often tends to work.

00:13:03 Speaker_00
I think there's many examples of regulation of this general flavor that have some sort of technical complexity that is eventually solved. We just say, look, you have to do it. And something is solved. It's imperfect, but something is solved.

00:13:16 Speaker_00
It should be said there are in the American context, there are other

00:13:21 Speaker_00
Web-based services that have to do things like this so notably in multiple US states pornographic websites have to do various types of age verification Has not led to as big of privacy arguments because I think there's not as big of a lobbying effort to protect those sites Let me tell you my preferred solution here, so I do think from a technologist standpoint

00:13:46 Speaker_00
The approach of saying the sites and apps need the age gate, I actually don't think that's right. I don't think that's the right way to do this. There is privacy and technical concerns, those are fair points.

00:13:58 Speaker_00
I actually think the right way to do this is at the operating system level. So here's my proposal, and I've talked about this before in various forums. My proposal is, what is something we know someone under 16 can't do?

00:14:14 Speaker_00
They can't go and buy an iPhone and set up cellular service for that iPhone, right? That we know an adult does.

00:14:23 Speaker_00
These 13-year-olds who have phones and they're using the phones to go on Instagram or to go on TikTok, the one thing we know is their parents set up that phone for them.

00:14:32 Speaker_00
You can't sign contracts, you don't have the money for it, you can't have a cellular contract. So I think that is actually the choke point for age verification. And I think it is as simple as this.

00:14:46 Speaker_00
When you add a, buy a phone and set up a plan or add a phone to your plan as the owner of this plan, the person who the plan's name is in, um, you just specify this as a under 16 or above 16 phone. Single bit. Um, we trust you. Yeah, you can lie. Fine.

00:15:05 Speaker_00
We're not doing any more verification. There's no government, there's no government documents. There's no photos. There's no looking at your behavior. Just parents say this phone is for a kid. This phone is for an adult.

00:15:17 Speaker_00
And then if that kid gets older, they can change that the same place they change the credit card you use for your billing. Now the operating system just has a single bit.

00:15:27 Speaker_00
Any service who wants can query the phone and say, is this someone who is 16 and older or not? And they get one bit yes or no. I think that's going to solve, that gives you like 90% there. There's no privacy concerns here.

00:15:40 Speaker_00
Technically, it's pretty straightforward. From an effectiveness standpoint, it largely works. Yes, like adults can lie, but so they can do that with any of these bans. Just set up an account and give it to their kid, give them their password to use.

00:15:54 Speaker_00
But this is simple. It gets rid of privacy issues, it gets rid of technical concerns, right? Now all these websites have to do is just access, make an OS call. Is this an adult or not? And it simplifies a lot of things.

00:16:08 Speaker_00
So I do think it's a solvable problem. I don't want to dismiss it, but it's not a showstopper. And I am very suspicious of slow walking. Like eventually with these things, you have to just push something through.

00:16:19 Speaker_00
This has been, I think, more or less the approach with some of the U.S. state laws that have age-related restrictions for various technologies. They're kind of saying, just figure it out.

00:16:28 Speaker_00
Ultimately, you do have to do something like that, but I like my OS solution. All right.

00:16:32 Speaker_00
Another argument, social media will become worse without the excuse of protecting kids, and kids will sneak in and not tell anyone because they're not supposed to be there. I don't buy this at all. This idea that the only thing keeping

00:16:46 Speaker_00
TikTok, Instagram, X, whatever. These are whatever services are being targeted here. The only thing keeping them from 8chan, just like straight up chaos, is the fact that we worry about kids being on there. That's nonsense.

00:17:03 Speaker_00
These companies don't care about kids. They haven't been doing almost anything for kids other than adding some privacy controls that parents can control. Right?

00:17:11 Speaker_00
We are not, I do not buy this concept that our current social media experience is mediated by these companies being worried about kids. They're mediated by trying to keep their customers. What will our customers bear?

00:17:23 Speaker_00
If Instagram turns themselves into 8chan, most adults won't want to use Instagram. you know, uh, we see like X decided we are going to get less content moderatedly. And then blue sky came along and say, we'll get more, uh, more content moderation.

00:17:39 Speaker_00
And like these found different audiences, right? People are carefully trying to, uh, titrate what their contents like threads and saying, we're going to turn down political content and we're going to turn up this type of content anyway.

00:17:52 Speaker_00
So I don't buy this idea that, Oh, we know that kids aren't here. Let's bring out the Klu Klux Klan, you know, memes or whatever. You're going to lose all your customers.

00:18:04 Speaker_00
I'm also not that convinced by the argument that, well, now kids will sneak in and not report what's going on because they're not supposed to be there. They're not reporting what's going on now that they're seeing that's bad.

00:18:16 Speaker_00
I'm not, that's not compelling to me. All right. I think the craziest argument against is this idea of, well, if kids can't use social media, they'll turn to the dark web.

00:18:26 Speaker_00
This is a canard, not just a canard, it's like a complete factual inaccuracy that I have been railing against for a long time. Social media is not the internet.

00:18:40 Speaker_00
Social media is a small number of services that essentially run their own private version of the internet that are accessed through internet protocols.

00:18:48 Speaker_00
But a lot of commentators, especially people who grew up on this or the companies themselves, like to equate social media with internet themselves. So they say, like, if you're not on a social media platform, what's left? The dark web. That's crazy.

00:19:01 Speaker_00
The dark web is a very specific thing.

00:19:04 Speaker_00
It's a list of, it's, it's sites and services that, um, don't publicly have domain names that are accessible through standard DNS services or so that they can, um, you only can get to them if you, someone has told you specifically how to log into them so that they can have less scrutiny from like law enforcement.

00:19:20 Speaker_00
It's like this very small corner of the internet that's used for like hiring hit men and drug trafficking and child pornography. You have all of the internet outside of social media. That's not the dark web. I've never had a social media account.

00:19:33 Speaker_00
I use the Internet a lot. I'm not on the dark web. So I do not like this idea that the Internet is social media, and if you're not on social media, you're on some dark website ordering Hitman.

00:19:45 Speaker_00
All right, the final argument is kids will isolate and lose the positive benefits of social media. I think this is the point that's most worth arguing. It's the point that's most relevant when it comes to concerns about social media bans.

00:20:00 Speaker_00
It's not one that should be dismissed. Now, the key to this, let's get fine-tuned. The key to this argument is discerning between two different subgroups of kids.

00:20:13 Speaker_00
And this is why I think it's confusing for people when they hear this argument on either side of it, is because they're mixing together two different groups of kids. For most kids, losing access to internet-based community is not a problem.

00:20:30 Speaker_00
For most kids, actually, the moving more sociality to digital communication itself is causing more harms. For most kids, if you move them back...

00:20:39 Speaker_00
to a more localized in-person sociality, that's actually really healthy for kids because it's very complicated to build up your social skills to mature as a social being.

00:20:49 Speaker_00
It takes lots of practice and you need all of the sources of information we're evolved to take in. We need to see people in front of us. We need to see their body language. We need to struggle.

00:20:58 Speaker_00
We need the friction of trying to navigate complicated in-person social interactions to get that practice that's gonna make us better at it. So for most kids, it's kind of what you need actually.

00:21:07 Speaker_00
is like what I had in the 1990s as a junior, you know, as a high school student. Like, it's actually fine. Most kids are going to be fine. There is, however, certain kids who, you know, perhaps they're in a marginalized group living in

00:21:22 Speaker_00
an area where there really is very little support. Maybe there's just not very many other people like them. They really do feel isolated. In-person sociality is not going well. Traditionally, they would have had a very hard childhood.

00:21:35 Speaker_00
They would have felt very isolated. And maybe on social media, they can find out, find other people to support them, find other people who are of a similar community that shows that, you know, they're not alone.

00:21:48 Speaker_00
All of this could be really useful for that group. So that's the group, I think, for which that's true. That's where you need to be worried about when it comes to this particular type of argument.

00:22:02 Speaker_00
One thing I'll say here, and one way we can think about this, is asking the question of whether social media platforms are inherent in Internet-based support communities. There are internet-based support communities that come through social media.

00:22:21 Speaker_00
Social media kind of makes them easier to find and they're typically, it's good interface. It's like easy to use.

00:22:25 Speaker_00
You can find your particular, you know, maybe you're on TikTok pretty quickly, for example, just automatically find, you want to see videos from these type of people and you'll see them a lot. You didn't have to do much.

00:22:37 Speaker_00
We can find a Facebook group or a Reddit thread that's of a particular community and the interface is there and you have a nice app. And so it could be really useful.

00:22:47 Speaker_00
But there is a lot of Internet, like we just argued, that's not through these global conversation platforms. There's a lot of Internet that can be leveraged successfully to help young people find support communities.

00:22:57 Speaker_00
You have, for example, the whole world of things like newsletters and podcasts, which often spawn their own communities. You belong to like a substack newsletter about something you really care about.

00:23:08 Speaker_00
You're probably familiar with the fact that there's a comment section on the newsletter post. There's chats that happen back and forth with the author of it and their niche communities, right? It's people who are interested in this very thing.

00:23:19 Speaker_00
It's a small group of people. It's much more cohesive. There's no algorithmic curation. There's no engagement. It's not a hundred thousand people talking about this and the most outrageous stuff being curated for what you see.

00:23:31 Speaker_00
It's there's six hundred people here. We're kind of on the same page. We set up our own community norms, right? You can have very strong community. There's communities run by teens themselves.

00:23:42 Speaker_00
These are based around discussion boards or chat channels, et cetera, that just don't happen to live in a social media ecosystem.

00:23:48 Speaker_00
Advocacy groups themselves could run their own online services, be it web or app-based, where people can come together and chat and share resources and have appropriate moderation for exactly what this community is. Right.

00:24:00 Speaker_00
Moderation is not a bad thing. Moderation is hard when you're trying to apply rules to 600 million Twitter users. Moderation is much easier. Like this is a group for, you know, teens from this background. And there's like a few hundred of us on here.

00:24:16 Speaker_00
That's a very easy community to moderate compared to we need rules for 600 million people. So my argument there is that is a fair point.

00:24:24 Speaker_00
We need to think about groups that are finding support in the Internet and make sure that we don't wrench them away from that.

00:24:28 Speaker_00
But we should start thinking about finding that support in ways that does not necessarily involve global conversation platforms, these social platforms. All right. So there's the arguments for and the arguments against. I've gone through each of those.

00:24:41 Speaker_00
What's my take? I would say I'm generally in favor of legislation like this at this moment, not because I think it solves all the problems, like put a law like this in place and then we can all go home.

00:24:52 Speaker_00
Our kids will be safe and we don't have to think about it. What's good about this type of legislation is the signal it sends. And it is a signal that is fundamentally techno-selectionist, to use a piece of terminology that I like and that I introduced.

00:25:06 Speaker_00
It shows that we can notice that something that we embraced and had many good attributes is having unexpected negative side effects in certain instances or certain groups.

00:25:17 Speaker_00
And it's perfectly appropriate to say, well, great, maybe we should pull it back there. that the arrow of the future with technology is not unvaryingly straight. It's like a meandering river.

00:25:31 Speaker_00
It's generally heading towards some sort of proverbial future C, but it takes turns and has oxbows, and we can say, this technology is great. Let's try it out. That service didn't work. Kids shouldn't use this.

00:25:41 Speaker_00
Actually, if we change it to this, this works better. We can edit and reflect and curate and change our relationship to technologies that already exist, even technologies that are already widely used.

00:25:52 Speaker_00
I also like that legislation like this sends a message to parents, right? It's okay to say, I worry about this. I don't like my kids using this.

00:26:01 Speaker_00
When you have a law that's like, kids shouldn't use this, it makes it so much easier to actually tell your kids, I don't want to use it. It makes it so much easier for your kids not to feel alone when they don't use it.

00:26:11 Speaker_00
This is something that opponents often don't understand about these type of laws as they say, well, wait a second. So many kids will get around this. It's not that hard to get around if they really want to. And that's not the point.

00:26:23 Speaker_00
I think the point is not trying to get 100% compliance, it's trying to make the lives of families and parents who are really worried about this, like 100% easier.

00:26:34 Speaker_00
Because now it's not, I will be the only one in my class who's not on Snapchat and my life's gonna be terrible, to now the kid has to argue to a parent, will you break the law for me? And that's a much easier place for parents to be.

00:26:46 Speaker_00
So I think that's fine. I'm also generally not in favor of the approach of why don't we just instead make social media safer for everyone. I just think that's like an impossible thing to do. It is. It's somewhat techno utopian. It gets very vague.

00:27:03 Speaker_00
It runs into all sorts of issues. I just have not. I don't have a lot of confidence that there's a way legislatively to make social media good for everyone. It ends up being like having extra long filters on the cigarettes you sell the kids.

00:27:19 Speaker_00
Sometimes something is just not appropriate for one group that's better for another. Yeah, we do our best. Like this social media is like an interesting thing. It's entertaining. It's also kind of dangerous. So maybe just kids shouldn't be there.

00:27:29 Speaker_00
That's often easier than somehow trying to go through. Right. We didn't. We tried this with movies and then we figured out it's better just to have ratings and say you have to be 16, older than 16 to go to the R-rated movies.

00:27:39 Speaker_00
It was easier than trying to have the Hays Codes or whatever that was trying to make all movies appropriate for all people. We didn't get as good of movies with those in place.

00:27:48 Speaker_00
And it was just easier to say, well, if we want to be really violent or whatever, maybe just like young people shouldn't go there unless a parent really wants them to see it. And the parent can make that choice. And that's the R-rated movie system.

00:27:58 Speaker_00
All right. But I want to emphasize two things here. What's talked about in these type of bills does not capture all the harm of Internet, all of the harms of the Internet facing kids.

00:28:08 Speaker_00
Much of the digital bullying that's happening right now with kids is happening on group text messaging apps, not in social media platforms.

00:28:14 Speaker_00
Snapchat is where this used to happen, but that's really just a glorified text messaging service that kids like to use.

00:28:20 Speaker_00
So if you really want to help the bullying issue, this is where having a culture of kids aren't just on their own phones all the time makes more of a difference. This also ignores online games.

00:28:31 Speaker_00
Online games are a huge source of the sort of predation, online exploitation, predation issues. A lot of parents who maybe would not give their kid a phone thinks it's fine that their kid is playing Minecraft on a server on their iPad.

00:28:47 Speaker_00
Not realize they're playing that with unknown adults who are able to interact with them. So it's sort of missing out other sources of predation.

00:28:54 Speaker_00
But mainly this is missing out on this type of bill, this type of discussion is missing out on the fact that These types of devices and the content accessible through these devices is hugely distracting and addicting for young people.

00:29:06 Speaker_00
It's digital fentanyl for a young person. Think about any 14-year-old you've ever known or have ever seen who's been given a smartphone. It is glued to their eyeball.

00:29:16 Speaker_00
The ultra-processed content, be it coming through a social media platform or through online games or through hyper-addictive web content or hyper-addictive video content, whatever it is, The growing kid brain can't handle this.

00:29:31 Speaker_00
Like we thought this was bad enough in the 70s when latchkey kids like got glued to TV. This is like a hundred times worse. Now this is not something that these type of bills are trying to handle, but it is one of the largest issues.

00:29:43 Speaker_00
We're going to see it in the questions that we're about to answer here. This causes real issues for people. It causes real issues to sort of all out distraction and addiction of these devices. So honestly,

00:29:55 Speaker_00
If you want to know what I think is most appropriate, it comes back to my main suggestion, which is it's not just social media, it's unrestricted internet access. That is a problem when you're younger than 16.

00:30:04 Speaker_00
So no, you just shouldn't have a smartphone or a tablet with unrestricted Internet access. I mean, you can just do what you want on this without supervision until you're 16.

00:30:15 Speaker_00
That's really the move here that if I'm a parent or I'm a community group, that's really the move here that probably matters. That's not something that I think could be easily legislated. I don't think it necessarily needs to.

00:30:24 Speaker_00
This could be a cultural shift.

00:30:26 Speaker_00
So again, laws like Australia is fine for signaling that it's fine to make different choices in your family, but the lack of unrestricted internet access for kids before 16 is probably like the bigger choice that's gonna make a bigger difference.

00:30:37 Speaker_00
All right, so how do we connect this to all of us? Well, what we are seeing here is techno-selectionism in play. This idea that it's okay to try, watch, and change. Try, watch, and change.

00:30:53 Speaker_00
The introduction of a technology doesn't mean it always has to be used. Your prior use of a technology doesn't dictate your future use of a technology. Be aware of the impact of technologies.

00:31:02 Speaker_00
Make assessments of this impact of technology and make changes accordingly. That's what all of us should be thinking about. There's probably a technology in all of our lives that needs the equivalent of the Australian ban.

00:31:14 Speaker_00
Someone to come along and say, hey, just stop using this. Maybe it was good before, but it's causing more trouble than it's worth. And we should be comfortable with moving backwards in this sense without thinking it's progress turning backwards.

00:31:25 Speaker_00
So I think there's a general message here of techno selectionism. All right, that's enough on what's going on in Australia. Let's get to some questions about these general topics. But first, here a word from sponsor.

00:31:39 Speaker_00
So I want to start by talking about a new sponsor of the podcast that I'm excited about, and that is our friends at Lofty, makers of the Lofty Clock.

00:31:49 Speaker_00
Now, one of the big points I talk about a lot on this show is that your smartphone should not be a constant companion. Nowhere is this advice more true than when it comes to your bedroom.

00:32:01 Speaker_00
If you have your phone next to your bed, that means it's going to be the last thing you look at before you go to sleep.

00:32:06 Speaker_00
The first thing you look at when you wake up and whenever you wake up in the middle of the night, what's going to keep you up a little bit longer.

00:32:12 Speaker_00
This not only is going to eat into your sleep time, it really feeds the addictive relationship with your phone. So you've got to get those phones out of your bedroom. The problem is how do you wake up?

00:32:24 Speaker_00
We have become used to using our smartphones as our alarm clocks. This is where the lofty clock, enters the scene. There's a beautifully designed piece of machinery technology that has one purpose, to be a clock that wakes you up.

00:32:41 Speaker_00
And it does this really well. We're well past the old school bells ringing on an old-fashioned alarm clock. You can choose how you want to do it. There's soothing sounds like birds chirping or waves crashing.

00:32:54 Speaker_00
For my wife and I, I don't know what you would call the sound that we use. It's like nice flutes, like pan flutes. I don't know, but it's a very nice way to wake up because we do not have our phones in our room.

00:33:05 Speaker_00
I keep mine plugged in at night downstairs. My wife literally plugs it in outside of our bedroom just so it's technically not in there.

00:33:11 Speaker_00
So having one of these modern sleek alarm clocks allows us to wake up nicely without having to have our phones right there. We can think about lofty as more than just a clock.

00:33:21 Speaker_00
Think of it as a sleep companion because it also has guided meditations, breath work, even white noise to help you drift off peacefully at night. I'm a huge white noise guy. I cannot sleep in silence. I travel the hotels with a white noise machine.

00:33:33 Speaker_00
That's a true story. The two phase alarm, that's a two phase alarm that will give you a gentle nudge at first, which often is enough to wake you up. And then a final wake up, uh, to help ease you into your day instead of just jolting you awake.

00:33:45 Speaker_00
The library of daily meditations, breathwork exercises, sound baths, sleep stories and more will help you relax and unwind without having to use your phone.

00:33:54 Speaker_00
I think it's kind of cool to have a meditation if you're a little stressed before bed coming right from your clock without having to bring your phone into the room. It has an entire rainbow

00:34:04 Speaker_00
of white and color noises, as well as nature sounds to help you drift into a slumber without having to look at a screen. And again, its design is beautiful, sleek, minimalist, modern aesthetics, clutter-free vibe.

00:34:15 Speaker_00
It's gonna fit in well in any bedroom. All right, so the Lofty Clock will help you like it has helped me get your phone out of your bedroom and make your sleep better.

00:34:25 Speaker_00
If you're ready to ditch your phone and reclaim your rest, or you wanna give the gift of better sleep to someone you love, you've gotta check out Lofty. Go to buylofty.com, that's B-Y lofty.com and grab yours today.

00:34:39 Speaker_00
If you use the code deep20, the word deep, the number 20, you will get 20% off orders over $125. That's buylofty.com, use the code deep20. Trust me, this little clock is a game changer and the perfect

00:34:53 Speaker_00
I also want to talk about our longtime friends at Element who have a new thing going on that's pretty cool.

00:34:58 Speaker_00
For those who don't know, Element is a zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte water born from the growing body of research revealing that optimal health outcomes occur at sodium levels two to three times government recommendations.

00:35:11 Speaker_00
What I like about Element is that not only does it give you the sodium you need when you're dehydrated, but it doesn't have junk in it. No sugar, no weird artificial ingredients.

00:35:19 Speaker_00
You can feel good about adding that mix to your water or pulling a pre-mixed can of their sparkling water with the electrolytes already in it. We have a large box of Element at our house. After workouts, I drink it.

00:35:32 Speaker_00
After long days of podcasting or lecturing, which is very dehydrating, I drink it, or if I spend a lot of time outside, or if I had a hard night, I'm feeling sluggish in the morning, helps get me hydrated, and I know I'm not drinking junk.

00:35:45 Speaker_00
The new thing I wanna tell you about is now that we're in winter, consider the limited time availability of Element Chocolate Medley, which includes Chocolate Mint, Chocolate Chai, and Chocolate Raspberry flavors.

00:35:56 Speaker_00
Here's the thing, you can mix the Chocolate Medley flavors with hot water. and you can enjoy it on your own or add it to an existing hot drink recipe that you like.

00:36:07 Speaker_00
You can put, and here's something I've been messing around with, put a half stick of chocolate mint in your coffee. And now you have like a hydrating mint mocha coffee in the morning. It's a great ritual. You get in from shoveling that snow.

00:36:21 Speaker_00
You're dehydrated. You don't want to just grab a cold water bottle, heat up some of this element chocolate medley flavors. It will be a ritual that you will come to enjoy in the cold months we're in right now.

00:36:34 Speaker_00
Here's a good news, you will receive a free Element sample pack with any order if you go to drinkelement.com slash deep to order. That's drinkelementlmnt.com slash deep to make your order and you will get a free Element sample pack.

00:36:49 Speaker_00
Remember, you can try Element totally risk-free. If you don't like it, give it away to a salty friend and we'll give you your money back, no questions asked.

00:36:56 Speaker_00
But don't worry, they have a very low return rate and high reorder rate because people like me love us some Element. All right, let's get back to the show. All right, we're back. Let's do some questions.

00:37:06 Speaker_00
Without Jesse here, I'm gonna have to read these questions myself. This is no fun. All right, our first question comes from EM. EM says, I recently lost my iPhone and my life has gotten exponentially better as a result.

00:37:19 Speaker_00
I easily keep up with my graduate school work and research goals. I'm spending more time reading and immersed in my hobbies and I'm taking better care of myself by sleeping enough and eating well.

00:37:29 Speaker_00
I spend maybe an hour a week on social media on my laptop, but here's the problem. I've realized that I am profoundly lonely and moved across the country away from all my friends from graduate school.

00:37:40 Speaker_00
And now that I'm not spending hours every day, fake socializing on Instagram, I'm actually noticing that loneliness, any advice. Well, I like this cause there's, there's also a little case study hidden in here.

00:37:52 Speaker_00
Notice all the fantastic stuff that happened to EM when he lost his iPhone and then later just changed his social media to something he just does on his laptop one hour a week. Which, by the way, you're allowed to do.

00:38:06 Speaker_00
And by the way, I make this argument in digital minimalism. But when I talk to adults who give me a case that they need to be using social media, 95% of the time.

00:38:16 Speaker_00
The things they say they need to use social media for could be handled in one hour a week on their laptop, right? So they use that small number of things.

00:38:25 Speaker_00
I need to be on the Facebook group for my running club to justify five hours a day of scrolling on their phone. So I really love seeing that. I love, and I'm gonna emphasize what EM got out of this.

00:38:38 Speaker_00
He easily keeps up with his work now, makes progress on his research goals. He reads, he's in hobbies, he sleeps. All this good stuff happened when he got rid of the phone addiction. Okay, the loneliness.

00:38:50 Speaker_00
Well, this is important because it underscores one of the more insidious side effects or attractions, maybe I should say, of our current digital world. It simulates these services and apps and devices simulate deep human needs.

00:39:11 Speaker_00
Now, not in a sort of deep way where it's actually going to satisfy those needs, but just enough to be alluring, right?

00:39:18 Speaker_00
It's like they have evolved to say, if we can offer a satisfaction of deep human needs, that will make us particularly alluring to people and we can become a real part of their life and therefore harvest their data and eyeballs.

00:39:33 Speaker_00
So fake socializing, as he talks about it, so being on social media and talking with people with digital typing back and forth on these various sort of global conversation platforms, draws on our deep human need for sociality and sort of makes us feel vaguely speaking like, okay, I guess we're social.

00:39:49 Speaker_00
Like in a rational way, we're social, we're talking to people all the time.

00:39:53 Speaker_00
But the problem is, and I argue this in detail in Digital Minimalism, it's not actually fulfilling our need for sociality because the deep parts of our brain isn't seeing another person. Where is this person? What do they look like?

00:40:06 Speaker_00
When are we sacrificing non-trivial time and attention on their behalf? So the deep part of our brain is not seeing real human relations. It's just the rational part of our brain saying, I'm very social, I'm very social.

00:40:15 Speaker_00
And so we're actually very lonely, but don't realize it. And so what we see here is once EM actually took away the fake socialization, he realized, oh, I am, I have been really lonely. There's not real people in my lives. I was papering it over.

00:40:31 Speaker_00
I was papering it over with this. There's other needs these fulfill where they do similar things.

00:40:35 Speaker_00
I mean, for example, we have this drive for like competency to be good at things because it increases our status in the community tribe as someone who's useful and valuable and we build a lot of meaning on it.

00:40:46 Speaker_00
Video games can get in there and toy with that. Oh, you're leveling up. You just killed all the Nazis in this base in Call of Duty. It plays with that. So you're like, yeah, that's fine. I'm OK. I feel like I'm doing enough to feel competent.

00:40:59 Speaker_00
But you're not actually doing anything that's building real competence. There's no real friction. You're not building up real sort of hard skills in a way that our body recognizes, our communities recognize. That comes to haunt you.

00:41:10 Speaker_00
And at some point you're like, why do I feel so hollow and sort of like angry or adrift or isolated? It's because I wasn't actually building up a tangible skill that's valuable to the community. I was pretending to build up a skill. It simulates that.

00:41:23 Speaker_00
It gives you numbers. You're level six and you do some button pressing and now you're level seven. It sort of simulates it, but it's not really giving you what you need. So Ian, what should you do?

00:41:31 Speaker_00
You have to do old fashioned, the old fashioned work of actually building connections. So join communities. Be useful in those communities. Over time, try to get a leadership position in those communities.

00:41:45 Speaker_00
That's a great way to be around people, to feel useful, to feel less lonely, and to feel connected. You'll meet people that way as well. You also have to think about taking regular doses of what I call vitamin people.

00:41:56 Speaker_00
Being around real people in person is necessary for your health. So it's not about like, am I in the mood to be social this week? especially if you've been fake socializing, you might have lost that muscle. It might feel very uncomfortable.

00:42:10 Speaker_00
It's have I gotten sufficiently large dose of vitamin people this week? And you go and you do things or you invite someone you know, or go to something, you know, they get that dose of vitamin people.

00:42:21 Speaker_00
And then over time, as the rewards come from forming these connections, It's less something you have to sort of force yourself to do. And it's something that you're really going to want to do.

00:42:29 Speaker_00
So yeah, it can be hard work to rebuild your social connection, but it's important. And I appreciate you highlighting the degree to which social media in particular can obfuscate the idea that you actually are very lonely. You just don't realize it.

00:42:45 Speaker_00
Let's move on with Fahad. Fahad says, you mentioned the following Arnold Bennett quote in some of your books. One of the chief things which my typical man has to learn is that the mental faculties are capable of a continuous hard activity.

00:42:59 Speaker_00
They do not tire like an arm or a leg. All they want is change, not rest except in sleep. Bahaad continues his question. Do you still agree with what it says? Do we really not need a rest? Can we work all the time like robots?

00:43:16 Speaker_00
Well, no, we can't work all the time like robots. that is exhausting. I talk about this in my book, Slow Productivity. Particular principle two, work at a natural pace. We need great variations in effort over different timescales.

00:43:30 Speaker_00
But Bennett isn't talking about professional work here. The argument he's making, and this comes from his book, How to Live on 24 Hours a Day, The argument he's basically making is you don't need as much like veg out resting as you think.

00:43:48 Speaker_00
That's what sleep is for. Sleep is for the restorative. I'm doing nothing. And my body is like recharging for the next day. He's saying with your other time, do stuff that matters. like do interesting high quality stuff.

00:44:03 Speaker_00
So Bennett is actually pretty dismissive of work itself because he was, he was addressing the sort of newly enlarged London middle class. They worked downtown and they would take the trains back to their suburbs.

00:44:15 Speaker_00
He was like, yeah, you got your job, do your job. All right. When you get home, you have eight hours until you go to bed. And what he's saying is like, don't veg out, do good stuff, like intentional, meaningful stuff at that time.

00:44:26 Speaker_00
It's going to energize you instead of exhausting you. Now his version of edging out, if you read the book, because this is the early 20th century, is like drinking. Like, ah, I'm going to drink. I think he liked playing cards and drinking.

00:44:38 Speaker_00
I guess that's their equivalent of like vaping and scrolling social media. He's like, no, do meaningful stuff. Read poetry and think big thoughts and have grand conversations or whatever. And I think there's truth to that.

00:44:52 Speaker_00
I think intentional activity is something that we crave. It doesn't have to be hard activity. It doesn't have to be like a real strain. Um, but being intentional versus I'm now going to spend two hours on my phone while Netflix is playing.

00:45:11 Speaker_00
He's saying it's being intentional is going to be better. It's not going to exhaust you. It's going to give you energy. I think that's true. I think a softer way of thinking about this is in your time outside of work to embrace what I call the pig P I G.

00:45:25 Speaker_00
which is an acronym that stands for being present, being intentional, and seeking gratitude. So moment by moment in your after work time, when you're deciding what to do next, be intentional about what you choose. Don't just stumble into something.

00:45:44 Speaker_00
Be present while you're doing it. Don't also be on your phone or only half pay attention and seek gratitude. Isn't this great? I really enjoy this. This is really good. This doesn't have to be pig activities. Do not have to be mentally trying.

00:45:59 Speaker_00
It could be, for example, like watching a dumb movie with your kids.

00:46:02 Speaker_00
But if you're chose to watch this movie, like we're all gonna get together to watch it, you're present with them and the movie and what's going on, you find gratitude in like being able to watch this movie that you remember from your childhood and your kids are there and it's, you know, it's like a nice night or whatever.

00:46:17 Speaker_00
That is like a meaningful activity. It's not draining, it's not hard, you know, you're not getting after it or crushing it, but it's different than like, I'm just kind of vegging with my phone.

00:46:26 Speaker_00
So maybe that's a softer way to think about Bennett is presence, intentionality and gratitude. Live on purpose at most times, even if what you're doing on purpose is something that's not particularly mentally trying or difficult.

00:46:40 Speaker_00
So thanks for bringing that up. And I like that book actually. It's one of the first self-help books, How to Live on 24 Hours a Day. And we've got a question here from Heather. How do you do your research for books and articles?

00:46:52 Speaker_00
I find it challenging to sort through all of the information online. How do you write your books in terms of tools and organizing your thoughts? I thought this was an interesting question.

00:47:04 Speaker_00
The main point I wanted to respond to here is the reality that the world of available information is vast. So like you want to write an article, you want to write a book.

00:47:15 Speaker_00
Between other books and other articles and the world of online information, it's endless. The idea that I'm going to master everything relevant to this topic and somehow organize it and present it back

00:47:30 Speaker_00
in my books or my articles is hopeless, it's quixotic. So the way a lot of idea writers like myself or critical commentators like myself, so I write critical commentary and I write idea books.

00:47:41 Speaker_00
The way we often operate is trying to create a coherent path through this world. It's like pattern matching. These four or five things I've encountered seem to connect together.

00:47:56 Speaker_00
And if we connect together right, it makes a coherent path here, or a coherent structure, if you want to use that metaphor, for one way of seeing some part of our life that allows us to take useful action or make useful critique.

00:48:08 Speaker_00
And the landscape of which this path or structure is built is massive. The landscape of all relevant ideas and information is massive, and we don't have to get our arms around all that. Just here is a coherent path.

00:48:20 Speaker_00
It'll take you from one place to somewhere else useful. We often think about that as you're building a coherent path instead of trying to be comprehensive. Coherency over being comprehensive.

00:48:35 Speaker_00
One of the ways we see this violated is you get people that become encyclopedic when they tackle issues. Well, there's 15 relevant main issues to this issue that we're trying to face here. And if we go into sub-issue number 3, sub-point 4,

00:48:50 Speaker_00
sub, sub point a, we see this particular argument and then we can contrast that with 0.7, sub 0.6. Like you can get this like complicated hierarchy of information that in most instances is just overwhelming and doesn't help.

00:49:04 Speaker_00
The other issue we see when we, we ignore the reality of coherence versus comprehensiveness is that people get petrified. If I build a path over here,

00:49:15 Speaker_00
What about the landscape over here and over here and over here and over here and what if someone is over in that landscape and they will be upset that my path over here doesn't speak to their particular landscape.

00:49:23 Speaker_00
The problem is that's also a quixotic approach as well because the landscape is vast. The number of ways to think about it is vast. The number of different things that people care about most when it comes to a particular issue is vast.

00:49:39 Speaker_00
and they try to address or handle everyone to build a map that covers the entire space, A, you're probably not equipped to build that map because most of these other spaces you've never been to before, so it's not a useful map, and it's much more boring.

00:49:53 Speaker_00
I wanna go, I'm stretching this metaphor, but I wanna go on a nice nature walk now, I don't need a topographic map of the whole state, right? That's the other thing that happens.

00:50:02 Speaker_00
Comprehensiveness can lead to a sort of incomprehensibility because it's just you're trying to do too much. So it's my approach and a lot of commentators are doing the same.

00:50:12 Speaker_00
In this vast space of issues and information ideas, here is a coherent path that for a lot of people hopefully is useful. Add it to your list of particular outings. I mean, that's a huge elaboration of a metaphor beyond its actual usefulness.

00:50:27 Speaker_00
But I just want to make that point, Heather, that sometimes it's okay to just find something useful to say and then let people integrate that into the much broader maps they're creating. All right.

00:50:42 Speaker_00
We got a case study here, but I'm going to put an asterisk in front of this. It's a case study, but it's also a plea for advice. So it's a useful case study.

00:50:52 Speaker_00
It's kind of a, at first a sad case study, but we're going to, at the end, give some advice to help this person. So we're going to both see a issue, be illuminated in detail, and then we can talk about some advice. All right.

00:51:08 Speaker_00
Our modified case study today comes from Shane. Shane says, I'm turning 25 soon and the reality is starting to hit me. I have wasted the past eight years of my life scrolling through TikTok and Instagram and binge watching Netflix.

00:51:23 Speaker_00
My daily social media usage is 15 plus hours and I'm sleep deprived due to this. The longest I can go without scrolling through social media is two days. I had no goals when I was young.

00:51:34 Speaker_00
I just went along with what my friends at the time chose to study in university. Now they all have successful careers or getting married. I fell behind in life.

00:51:42 Speaker_00
I dropped out of university two times, but due to my parents forcing me to study, I somehow managed to complete my degree.

00:51:47 Speaker_00
But even when I was in university, I barely attended classes and teachers called me a daydreamer because I never focused in class and I always zoned out.

00:51:54 Speaker_00
As for getting a job, I prefer roles that don't necessitate daily attendance in an office or any consistent regular work schedule.

00:52:03 Speaker_00
My introverted personality has led me to isolation as I do not like talking to people and I'm also ashamed to meet anyone as I haven't achieved anything.

00:52:12 Speaker_00
So I've tried learning various skills in the past three years, such as coding, copywriting, graphic design, web design, and animation. So I can do freelancing, but never succeeded anything.

00:52:21 Speaker_00
When something gets difficult, I just drop it and continue scrolling through social media. The most I can focus is 10 minutes, or sometimes I go into a flow state for hours, but most of the time my mind just goes blank when I try to learn something.

00:52:33 Speaker_00
I've watched over hundreds of self-help videos and tried everything I saw in the videos. from daily planning and specific goals to every piece of advice out there, nothing works.

00:52:43 Speaker_00
I know what to learn and the exact steps I need to learn these skills and how I will use them. But after creating a schedule, I barely follow through. And as I said, my mind just goes blank when I try to study.

00:52:53 Speaker_00
Now I have no idea how to get myself to do something and achieve something. All right, well, let's start here with a little bit of empathy. This is sort of the worst case scenario or a crystallization of people's fears.

00:53:09 Speaker_00
when it comes to smartphones and social media and young people. It is not for some people benign. It is not for some people a way to check on sports rumors and a community that's really supportive to them as part of an otherwise rich lives.

00:53:26 Speaker_00
These devices with these types of services can be incredibly addicting and have damage to people's lives that counters or is comparable to the damage of any of the more sort of well-known addictions. And we see that here in this case study.

00:53:44 Speaker_00
Now, why do they do this? Well, we have the distraction component, right? So like, how's this damage happen? There's a distraction component.

00:53:53 Speaker_00
You're using your phone instead of doing other things that are more valuable, but there's a deeper issue going on. And I alluded to this earlier in the show, but I'm going to detail it here more. These phones simulate deep human needs

00:54:07 Speaker_00
that were designed to actually drive humans to do the hard work of becoming a successful, sustainable, proud human being. It is hard work to become a respectable adult who feels satisfied in life and has a sustainable, meaningful life.

00:54:23 Speaker_00
That is hard work. Evolution set us up to help us do that hard work by giving us a collection of fundamental human needs, and they're so compelling

00:54:34 Speaker_00
that in the pursuit of satisfying these needs, we will do the hard stuff necessary to become a successful adult. So these needs include connection, a sense of competency, community standing, and curiosity slash fear of boredom, among others.

00:54:57 Speaker_00
Those needs are very strong.

00:54:59 Speaker_00
Trying to satisfy those needs, we end up learning how to socialize, doing the hard work of getting good at things, trying to become a leader in our community, seeking out interesting information or productive activity because we really hate being bored, etc.

00:55:14 Speaker_00
Modern phones and the apps and services that are on them can simulate fulfilling these human needs just enough to short-circuit us from actually going after them.

00:55:26 Speaker_00
They make us feel just enough connected, just enough competent, just enough part of a community, and just enough not bored that we don't actually get up off of the couch and do the stuff needed to become a successful adult.

00:55:39 Speaker_00
So by short-circuiting those fundamental human drives, we lose the carrot and the stick that evolution granted us to prevent what is happening here with Shane. from happening in our lives.

00:55:57 Speaker_00
That really is the fundamental danger of just unrestricted phone access to a kid. That if it's satisfying these drives, as they gain autonomy, as they go through their young adulthood, they never do the work necessary.

00:56:11 Speaker_00
That's really the insidious part, more so than the distraction or the addictiveness. That's part of the reason why they're so addicting, is it becomes our only outlet. Like this is Shane's only outlet for satisfying these drives.

00:56:23 Speaker_00
And we're miserable if our human drives aren't satisfied. And this is his only outlet now because he never developed the hard adult skills necessary to do this in the way that we're really meant to do it. So now all he's left with is the devices.

00:56:37 Speaker_00
The good news is Shane, it's recoverable. Those drives are there. You just have to learn how to satisfy them in the way, the real world way that evolution intended. Your phone will then become less compelling because it's not necessary anymore.

00:56:52 Speaker_00
So this is very recoverable. Now, how do we actually do this? Well, the big argument in part one of the book I'm writing now on the deep life, part one is called Prepare.

00:57:02 Speaker_00
And the big argument is we jump too quickly into making the big changes in our life. I want to be like, let's get out there. I got to be super social and get really good at things.

00:57:13 Speaker_00
But we skip the first part, which is just preparing ourselves to be an eminently qualified human being. Just the hard work of like learning how to be someone who can do hard things.

00:57:21 Speaker_00
Until you've practiced and created yourself into someone who can tackle hard things in a consistent way, any attempt to just go do something hard is going to fail. So I'm going to recommend a three-part solution here. Let's start with discipline.

00:57:38 Speaker_00
The ability to do hard things that are valuable that you don't want to in the moment. is the fundamental ability if you're going to transform your life. You are very bad at this now, that's fine because it's practiced.

00:57:48 Speaker_00
To say you're bad at discipline now is like saying also you're bad at the banjo. The latter thing when it upsets you because you're like, yeah, I've never played the banjo, but I'm sure I could get better if I practice.

00:57:57 Speaker_00
Well, the same is for discipline. I would use the discipline ladder technique I talked about in a recent episode where you start with a really small thing.

00:58:05 Speaker_00
that you do daily, but it's easy, and then you ladder up to something slightly harder, and then once you get used to that, you ladder up to something harder, so you work your way up to increasingly demanding versions of whatever you're working on.

00:58:18 Speaker_00
I would run two discipline ladders, one involving health and physical fitness, and one involving the intellect, probably around working your way up to being able to read interesting hard books.

00:58:32 Speaker_00
So have a ladder you build up towards which will lead to you getting in good shape and a ladder that'll lead up to you being able to use your mind and apply it in a consistent, sustained way and be exposed to interesting ideas.

00:58:48 Speaker_00
Run those ladders concurrently. This could take three to six months, but it's going to give you a base of discipline we can now use going forward. All right, next you got to organize your life. Start with capture systems.

00:59:01 Speaker_00
Just have a place where you write down all the different stuff you have to do, broken up by role and status. And then put away to lightweight morning shutdown routine.

00:59:08 Speaker_00
So just every morning, a very lightweight thing you do, you're going to glance at these lists and sketch out a plan, put a couple of notes down and a shutdown routine you do. This should be really centered on.

00:59:19 Speaker_00
I just want to make sure anything that came up gets put in those lists. So I don't, I'm not remembering anything in my head. Once you get used to that, ladder that up to something like multi-scale planning.

00:59:28 Speaker_00
Then you'll be ready at this point to do something like multi-scale planning. All right, step three. And now we're like pretty far into 2025 right now. And now we're going to reclaim your brain from the phone. I don't want you doing this yet.

00:59:41 Speaker_00
Before you have discipline, before you have some organization over your time and obligations, I don't want you going cold turkey on your phone yet because it's going to be like going cold turkey on like an alcohol dependency.

00:59:52 Speaker_00
You're going to get the DTs. It's going to be dangerous. But as a third step, you're ready to reclaim your brain. And this is where you're going to take a 30-day break from optional digital technologies.

01:00:02 Speaker_00
I kind of walked through this in my book, Digital Minimalism. You're going to aggressively explore in-person community opportunities. You're going to aggressively explore a hobby or skill that teaches you the joys of real competency.

01:00:14 Speaker_00
You're going to aggressively look into the world of ideas outside of your phone. This can be like a reading or documentaries. And in whatever work you're doing, You're going to aggressively look at how do I get better at this job?

01:00:27 Speaker_00
Not what do I want this job to offer me? What can I offer this job? I want to become indispensable so that later I can take control of my career. You have to get good first before your job gets good. Journal throughout this whole thing.

01:00:40 Speaker_00
Reflect what's working, what's not. You'll be ready then to sort of get used to going after these fundamental human needs without your device.

01:00:50 Speaker_00
After 30 days, make very specific rules about what comes back into your digital world and why and what rules you have for using it. You'll probably have to repeat this a couple times a year for a while. All right. So you can come back from all this.

01:01:04 Speaker_00
This is not a destiny, but it's gonna take hard work. Work your way up slowly. You have some setbacks, but I absolutely believe in you, Shane. And those are the, that's the advice I would give.

01:01:16 Speaker_00
I just pointed to multiple books and multiple past episodes. You're gonna have to dive into all of those as well to really understand what I'm saying. But I will say clearly, this is recoverable.

01:01:25 Speaker_00
You can figure out how to actually be an eminently qualified human being. This is going to take some work. Now's a good time to do it. All right. And now we're at the slow productivity corner question.

01:01:51 Speaker_00
The Slow Productivity Corner question, we do one question a week that relates to my new book, Slow Productivity, The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout.

01:02:00 Speaker_00
All right, today's Slow Productivity Corner question of the week comes from, oh, I don't have a name. That's a cool question. All right, here we go. How does Faustina Lente compare to the Tania's Longer Shorter Way? Sounds quite similar.

01:02:16 Speaker_00
And I like finding a source for the essence of this wisdom in Torah. All right, so we got to do a little bit of scholarship here.

01:02:26 Speaker_00
Faustina Lente is this Roman phrase, make haste slowly, which I talk about in my book, Slow Productivity, because it ties to the second principle of slow productivity, which is to work at a natural pace. So make haste slowly.

01:02:44 Speaker_00
What it's capturing is you're sort of relentlessly and systematically moving towards a goal, but doing it carefully and slowly. All right. The longer short way, which is a Jewish concept, I didn't know about until this question.

01:02:59 Speaker_00
So I did a little bit of research. And as anyone who knows anything about a serious Talmudic study knows, 20 minutes of internet research is all it takes to master these concepts. I'm being sarcastic. I'm apologizing in advance to all of the

01:03:14 Speaker_00
rabbis who are about to say, oh, you're getting this completely wrong. But let me give you my understanding of the longer short way concept. It comes from a story from Talmud, all right?

01:03:29 Speaker_00
For those who don't know, Talmud is the combination of the Mishnah, the oral law of Judaism, combined with commentary, known as the Gemara, and the sort of one book, etc., etc. It's old, all right? And it's something that is studied in Judaism.

01:03:41 Speaker_00
All right. So I found, using internet searches, the story from Talmud from which this concept comes from, and then we're going to say, how does this, does this give us more insight on slow productivity? All right, here's the story.

01:03:55 Speaker_00
Said Rabbi Yahshua ben Shania, Once a child got the better of me. I was traveling and I met with a child at a crossroads. I asked him, which way to the city? And he answered, this way is short and long, and this way is long and short.

01:04:12 Speaker_00
I took the short and long way. I soon reached the city, but found my approach obstructed by gardens and orchards. So I retraced my steps and said to the child, my son, did you not tell me that this is the short way?

01:04:23 Speaker_00
Answered the child, did I not tell you that it is also long? So, this story has a lot of interpretations, in particular, I believe, maybe in Hasidic tradition. There's a book about it. There's a rabbi that's done a lot of glosses on it.

01:04:42 Speaker_00
But the simple version, as best as I could tell from my 20 minutes of internet searching, what's being said here is the long short way, so the path pointed out by the child that is long but short,

01:04:54 Speaker_00
is sometimes the most direct way to get to an important goal. It is a long path of intentional steady effort is sometimes the shortest way, the best way overall to get to a goal.

01:05:08 Speaker_00
By contrast, a short long way where you think you're taking a shortcut, but it ends up being very long. So in sort of Jewish tradition, as far as I understand, this is often applied to Torah study, to get to the goal of connection to God.

01:05:22 Speaker_00
Actually, the shortest path there is a long commitment to studying Torah, right? So long path of steady intentional effort is sometimes the shortest way to a goal. That's a cool concept. I think that is very similar to Festina Lente.

01:05:39 Speaker_00
And I think it is very, it's a nice way of capturing some of the core ideas of working at a natural pace. Right? The shortest path somewhere is sometimes long.

01:05:49 Speaker_00
And that's okay because once you recognize that, you can chill out and start doing the daily or weekly or whatever pace you're working at. Do the stuff that matters. and let it pile up. Like the path is long.

01:06:03 Speaker_00
So to make it sustainable, do the right stuff at a reasonable pace. So the long, the longer short way. I like that phrase. I'm going to add that to my lexicon of slow productivity related ancient wisdom. So thank you for sending that in. All right.

01:06:19 Speaker_00
Speaking of wisdom, I want to go over the books I read in November, but first let's hear from some of our sponsors. So I want to talk in particular about our friends at Cozy Earth. Oh, I am a huge Cozy Earth fan. You know this.

01:06:35 Speaker_00
You know, my wife and I love the Cozy Earth sheets. Their bamboo sheet set is the ultimate gift this holiday season. Elevating everyday luxury is something everyone will use and absolutely adore. We adore it. They are incredibly soft.

01:06:49 Speaker_00
They're cool, they're temperature regulating. We own multiple pairs of these so that when we're washing one pair of these sheets, we have another pair to put on. We travel with them.

01:06:57 Speaker_00
When we go away for the summer, we bring our Cozy Earth sheets with them. They are just incredibly comfortable. I love them. Cozy Earth is not just about sheets as well. They have other things such as pajamas. My wife has the Cozy Earth pajamas.

01:07:11 Speaker_00
I have the Cozy Earth sweatshirt. We have the Cozy Earth towels. They just make really comfortable stuff. And once we got, became addicts for the sheets, we began the, oh, we have the duvet cover. It's comfortable stuff.

01:07:26 Speaker_00
I really do love to cozy their stuff, especially the bamboo sheet set. Their goal is to help you create a sanctuary within your home, a refuge from the demand of the outside world.

01:07:35 Speaker_00
They understand the significance of finding comfort and tranquility in the midst of our hectic lives. Your five to nine should consist of relaxation, rejuvenation, unwinding and embracing a sense of calm with cozy earth.

01:07:44 Speaker_00
You can transform your space into an elevated haven when serenity and renewal intertwine effortlessly. I think this is a great gift idea. If not for someone else, make this your gift for yourself this season.

01:07:56 Speaker_00
I want to go into the new year with sheets or pajamas or whatever that are super comfortable. Um, they all come with a 10 year warranty. That's how much they believe in them. And they have a lot of responsible production practices, et cetera. All right.

01:08:07 Speaker_00
So if you want your cozy earth pajamas by Christmas, you need to order by December 13th to get free shipping. Missed it? You can still get expedited shipping until December 20th to ensure it arrives in time.

01:08:21 Speaker_00
You can get your Cozy Earth sheets for someone else. You've got time. If you're doing it for yourself, well, do that soon as well. So don't wait. Head to CozyEarth.com slash deep now and use my exclusive code deep for up to 40% off.

01:08:34 Speaker_00
You want that discount. So remember CozyEarth.com slash deep and use the code deep. Give the gift of luxury this holiday season. That's CozyEarth.com slash deep.

01:08:44 Speaker_00
If you get a post-purchase survey, just like a request from me, say you heard about Cozy Earth from Deep Questions podcast. If you select it from the list in that survey, if one comes up, it really helps me.

01:08:54 Speaker_00
I also want to talk about our friends at My Body Tutor. We come out of the holidays, we have Thanksgiving, we got like Christmas or all the other holidays in December, and you sometimes feel as if you've been eating a lot.

01:09:06 Speaker_00
You've been sitting around on the couch a lot. It's dark. You're not outside enough. You're not feeling healthy. You have your New Year's resolutions pending. I want to get in better shape, but let me tell you how to do it. MyBodyTutor.

01:09:18 Speaker_00
MyBodyTutor, which is founded by Adam Gilbert, who I've known forever, is a 100% online coaching problem that solves the biggest problem in health and fitness, which is lack of consistency.

01:09:28 Speaker_00
They do this by simplifying the process of getting healthier in the practical, sustainable behaviors, and then letting you check in and work with your coach online every day

01:09:37 Speaker_00
to actually be accountable and to make the sort of flexible changes you need as life comes at you. That's why MyBodyTutor works, because you're working with someone else. They help you come up with your diet plan.

01:09:48 Speaker_00
They help you come up with your exercise plan. And then you check in with them about how it's going. They hold you accountable.

01:09:54 Speaker_00
When you travel for Christmas, they say, what changes are we going to make, for example, so that you don't fall too much off your plan? You don't have a gym. What exercises should you do? So they help you adapt as well. And because it's 100% online,

01:10:06 Speaker_00
It is much cheaper than having to work with like a nutritionist or a trainer in your gym in person. So now it's the time to finally fulfill your wish of getting healthier. And I recommend MyBodyTutor is a great way to do that.

01:10:19 Speaker_00
Just go to MyBodyTutor.com, T-U-T-O-R. Mention deep questions when you sign up and Adam will give you $50 off your first month. MyBodyTutor.com and mention deep questions. All right, let's move on now to books.

01:10:35 Speaker_00
All right, I try to read five books a month and then report back at the first or second podcast of each month what I read the month before. So we're in December now. What books did I read in November 2024?

01:10:48 Speaker_00
First, I read Gaining Ground by Forrest Pritchard. It's called memoir. It's a memoir of Forrest. Went back to his family farm and took it over. He's over in Shenandoah, not far from here.

01:10:59 Speaker_00
He sells at the Tacoma Park Farmer's Market, so I love crossing paths with him. And I enjoyed it. It's like a good memoir of someone like learning and embracing the farming life.

01:11:07 Speaker_00
Another memoir I read, I guess I was in a memoir mood this month, I'm realizing this. I read Little Chapel on the River by Gwendolyn Bounds. I like Gwendolyn Bounds' writing.

01:11:18 Speaker_00
Earlier this year I read that great book she wrote about not too late, about people in middle age taking on difficult physical goals.

01:11:26 Speaker_00
Little Chapel on the River is about her moving from New York in the wake of 9-11 to a small town on the Hudson River Valley and how she got really involved in this like old small pub.

01:11:36 Speaker_00
on the river in this town and getting involved in the life of the people at the pub. And she's a great writer and it's a great book. It wasn't what I thought it was. This is my fault, not Gwendolyn's.

01:11:47 Speaker_00
I came into this thinking, I really want to hear about what it's like moving upstate from a city. The like life in the countryside and the slowness and because that's, you know, very aspirational. It really was about

01:12:00 Speaker_00
This bar and the people in the bar, and it's very touching the relationships she made with these people, but it was it was like the vignettes of this. It ended up being a very affecting book. It wasn't what I thought, but I ended up enjoying it.

01:12:12 Speaker_00
I also read Lost in Thought by Zena Hitz, H-I-T-Z. Now this I thought was going to be a memoir. Kazina, she studied at St.

01:12:20 Speaker_00
John's in Annapolis, the great books program there, and was a successful academic, but left the track and went to like what was essentially a monastery. And I thought this book was going to be about her recommitting to a life of the mind.

01:12:33 Speaker_00
It's not really about her, though, after the beginning, it's just more of a polemic about the value of the life of the mind, the sort of standalone value of a life that's dedicated to embracing and engaging thoughts.

01:12:46 Speaker_00
So once I adjusted that that's what this was really about, there's some really good arguments in there. I read it because I'm thinking about one day writing this book in defense of thinking, and she's kind of doing something like that.

01:12:57 Speaker_00
So if you want a sort of muscular argument in favor of like hard books and ideas as having intrinsic value, Lost in Thought will give that to you. I then was, I guess, the last person left to read Outlive by Peter Attia.

01:13:13 Speaker_00
I had done an event with Peter, and he had given me a copy of his book, and I read it on the way home. It was much better than I thought.

01:13:21 Speaker_00
It's interesting because there's a lot of Peter in this book, and basically his trajectory was, I used to be super fiddly optimized, like exactly this diet and exactly this supplement.

01:13:32 Speaker_00
And he sort of matured and was like, no, no, no, different people respond to things differently. Let's get to like the big ideas that really matter. I mean, it was a... more medically rigorous and like less bro-sciencey than you're going to expect.

01:13:47 Speaker_00
It's like a really good argument for like what matters for longevity. and what it looks like to actually prioritize in your life. It's affected me in various ways. I'm well-written.

01:13:57 Speaker_00
No wonder it sold, and I'm checking the official list here, all the copies because it's a very good book. And again, it's more general and less in the weeds than you might imagine. So I'm glad I read that.

01:14:10 Speaker_00
Finally, I read We Have Never Been Woke by Musa Al-Gharbi, who's a sociologist, assistant professor of sociology at Stony Brook. That's probably my favorite book of the month. I love books like this where you have a young academic throwing bombs.

01:14:26 Speaker_00
I mean, he just comes into the building, he looks at the people around him and is like, I've got something to say. And he's making a big argument and it's a bold argument and he does it confidently. And it is very timely and very convincing.

01:14:39 Speaker_00
And it's not saying something like, oh, we all are thinking this. He's just taking his term saying it. It's surprising. It's the type of intellectual books I love. It's a little intellectual experience. And I thought it was an exciting, fun book to read.

01:14:54 Speaker_00
Man, he's got some courage, too.

01:14:56 Speaker_00
I mean, he's basically looking around at all this fellow academics and other what he calls a symbolic capitalist, but sort of the technocratic elite of US culture and just saying, hey, all this woke stuff, this is like you guys playing internal status games.

01:15:11 Speaker_00
It's about you trying to justify yourselves and your position, and it allows you to ignore or put down people who have it worse off than you and still feel good about it. Eddie's pretty compelling about it.

01:15:20 Speaker_00
It's a fantastic, exciting intellectual journey. You might not agree with all of it, but you'll learn a lot, and there's an energy to it, which you don't always see in these books. All right. So that's all I got for today. We'll be back next week.

01:15:32 Speaker_00
Hopefully, if everything goes well with what I'm up to with Jesse, I promise Jesse's coming back. I can't wait for that. Until then, as always, stay deep. Hi, it's Cal here. One more thing before you go.

01:15:48 Speaker_00
If you like the Deep Questions podcast, you will love my email newsletter, which you can sign up for at calnewport.com. Each week I send out a new essay about the theory or practice of living deeply.

01:16:05 Speaker_00
I've been writing this newsletter since 2007 and over 70,000 subscribers get it sent to their inboxes each week.

01:16:13 Speaker_00
So if you are serious about resisting the forces of distraction and shallowness that afflict our world, you got to sign up for my newsletter at calnewport.com and get some deep wisdom delivered to your inbox each week.