Ep. 327: Would Kant Use TikTok? AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Deep Questions with Cal Newport

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Episode: Ep. 327: Would Kant Use TikTok?

Author: Cal Newport
Duration: 01:28:52

Episode Shownotes

Almost everyone feels uneasy about their relationships with their smartphones. But the question is why? In today’s episode, Cal looks past the most common answers to seek a deeper understanding built on an unexpected source: the moral philosophy of Immanuel Kant. He then answers listener questions and ends the show

with another edition of the tech corner segment. Below are the questions covered in today's episode (with their timestamps). Get your questions answered by Cal! Here’s the link: bit.ly/3U3sTvo Video from today’s episode: youtube.com/calnewportmedia Deep Dive: Would Kant Use TikTok? [6:13] - Do “distraction free” apps work? [30:36] - How can I finish what I start? [34:24] - Is context shifting slowing down my work as a teacher? [37:42] - How should I organize my official podcast duties with my traditional teaching requirements? [43:08] - Is “slow living” and “slow productivity" the same thing? [49:00] - CALL: Deep work blocks in the afternoon [55:58] CASE STUDY: Re-designing a life with a new job [1:00:07] TECH CORNER: How do recommendation algorithms work? [1:11:00] Links: Buy Cal’s latest book, “Slow Productivity” at calnewport.com/slow Get a signed copy of Cal’s “Slow Productivity” at peoplesbooktakoma.com/event/cal-newport/ Cal’s monthly book directory: bramses.notion.site/059db2641def4a88988b4d2cee4657ba? youtu.be/SeZ1YOgbz18?si=kuCksvy_dGoOfx8Q Thanks to our Sponsors: shopify.com/deep drinklmnt.com/deep expressvpn.com/deep mintmoblie.com/deep Thanks to Jesse Miller for production, Jay Kerstens for the intro music, Kieron Rees for the slow productivity music, and Mark Miles for mastering.

Full Transcript

00:00:11 Speaker_01
I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions, the show about cultivating a deep life in a distracted world. So I'm here in my deep work HQ, joined as always by my producer, Jesse. All right, Jesse, two announcements before we get in it today.

00:00:33 Speaker_01
Number one, I had mentioned a few weeks ago that my book, Slow Productivity, had been nominated for this business book awards, the S-A-B-E-W.

00:00:45 Speaker_02
I actually have it here on my phone. That stands for the Society for Advancing Business Editing and Writing. So they have this awards for the best business books of the year.

00:01:00 Speaker_02
They have three categories, business reporting, career development, and leadership and management. All right, so I had been nominated for the career development category. They just announced the other day that Slow Productivity has won the category.

00:01:18 Speaker_02
The SABEW says it's the best career development book of the year. The two finalists, the two runners up in that category were Charles Duhigg's book, Super Communicators, and Bonnie Hammer's book, 15 Lies Women Are Told at Work.

00:01:34 Speaker_02
So I'm excited about that. creating a compelling read that should help shift your mindset about work. So there you go, Jesse. Congratulations. Best business book of the year. Amazon released its best business books of the year as well.

00:02:04 Speaker_01
I don't know why they do this in November, I guess. Like what if your book comes out in December? Cause they want you to buy it on Black Friday. Probably. I think you're right. That's absolutely right.

00:02:13 Speaker_01
So probably when they say the best books of the year, they probably just measuring November to November. So if you came out in December, you'd be anyways. Um, so slow productivity was also named to their list of the best business books of 2024.

00:02:27 Speaker_02
The cool thing about this, uh, SBEW award, I didn't realize this, but I heard from one of the, um, people who works my publicity team and said, Oh, they need your address to send your cash prize. So get some money. What kind of cash?

00:02:41 Speaker_02
I believe the first place prize for the best career development book for the SBEW Business Book Awards is $600,000.

00:02:47 Speaker_01
I thought you were going to say like $10 million. Or it was $60. I'm not quite sure. We'll see. We'll see how that goes.

00:02:55 Speaker_02
But anyways, I, we're at the end of the year. It's, it's good to see a year out, you know, a half year out from this book coming out that is being recognized as one of the best business books of the year. So please, you should read that. All right.

00:03:05 Speaker_02
Other, other announcement, other thing I am excited about. Long-time listeners know what I mean when I say Thriller December is approaching. My longstanding routine for the month of December, is I read really fun techno thrillers.

00:03:26 Speaker_02
I like to eat them with a snack, by the fire, maybe put on some like Christmas records on the whatever.

00:03:34 Speaker_02
Growing up, I had always loved the fantastical nature of like that season, that Christmas season, as I really into like Santa Claus movies, et cetera, the sort of like fantastical, the sort of escapism of the season. So now as an adult,

00:03:48 Speaker_02
I reaccess that by reading really fun techno thrillers.

00:03:52 Speaker_02
I really try to find this balance between they have to be good enough writing that it's not painful to read, but it has to have a topic that I'm really interested in, like a cool hook or an interesting like technology topic it's in.

00:04:03 Speaker_02
And I've already purchased

00:04:05 Speaker_02
the first three thrillers i think i'm going to i think i'm going to read anyways uh you should get excited about thriller december you don't have to read thrillers by the way it's whatever your sort of guilty pleasure book is i don't care if this is like summer romance novels or maybe you're really into hard sci-fi or you're really into like sports non-fiction this is not a month to impress people with your books it's a month for just enjoying how books can be fun now here's my decree jesse it's why i ordered my first books already

00:04:34 Speaker_02
I think it's been kind of a stressful season. The election was stressful for a lot of us. Escapism is on our mind. I'm starting it a week early this year. I think Thanksgiving week, that final week in November, is when I'm starting Thriller December.

00:04:47 Speaker_02
Did you already finish your November books? I'm on the last one. Yeah. So, so I, I, I'm reading Peter Atiyah's book and that's my fifth. So yeah, I'll finish that up soon and get started on my thriller December. I'm kind of, I don't want to get into it.

00:05:04 Speaker_02
My, my book timing window has shifted in this weird way that my months instead of going from the beginning of a month to the end of the month now have shifted through various contingent reasons to be like the 15th of the month to the 15th of the next month.

00:05:17 Speaker_02
So, You know, I don't know how that happened, but now like I typically, I will finish my November books, for example, around the 15th or 16th of November.

00:05:27 Speaker_02
And then my December books, I'll probably finish, you know, around, I don't know how it got shifted. Not so important, but the point being is I'm excited for Thriller December and you should be too.

00:05:36 Speaker_02
We'll talk about it more, I suppose, as we get closer. But today in contrast to the guilty pleasures of Thriller December, Jesse, we're going to get smart. We have ourselves a pretty intellectual deep dive. We've got a tech corner segment at the end.

00:05:53 Speaker_02
Might be talking a little bit about optimization algorithms. I'll make it all accessible. But we are putting on our thinking caps today. We are going to be sophisticated and smart and impress everyone with how erudite we are.

00:06:05 Speaker_02
So I think we've got a smart episode of the show to do today. So why don't we get started with our deep dive? Today I want to give you an argument about why you feel uneasy about your smartphone that you've likely never heard before.

00:06:22 Speaker_02
It is, however, I think an important argument to hear. Why? Because it draws from a source that far predates these modern digital technologies.

00:06:34 Speaker_02
I'm going to make you an argument about why you're uneasy about your smartphone that goes back to the foundational moral philosophy of Immanuel Kant.

00:06:44 Speaker_02
We're talking about a philosopher from the 1700s who is arguably the most influential source of moral ideas since the Bible.

00:06:53 Speaker_02
And it turns out, if you read Kant correctly, he has a lot to say about decidedly modern inventions such as Twitter and TikTok. So I'm going to ask you to stick with me here. We're going to get a little bit technical, but I'm going to walk you through.

00:07:08 Speaker_02
We're not going to get too technical. All of these ideas will be accessible and we're going to come out on the other end of this exploration.

00:07:14 Speaker_02
with a better understanding of the role technology plays in your life right now, why that makes you uneasy, and changes you can make. I think it's a cool thing to add to the argument.

00:07:26 Speaker_02
All right, so I'm going to be drawing today entirely from a single academic paper from 2021. I'll pull it up on the screen here. I have a preprint version here that I could access, which has a link to the official final version.

00:07:42 Speaker_02
I'll put it on the screen here for people who are watching instead of just listening. The paper we're going to be drawing from is titled, Is There a Duty to Be a Digital Minimalist?

00:07:54 Speaker_02
This was published in the Journal of Applied Philosophy back in the summer of 2021. For those of you who are tracking at home, that's volume 38, number 4. The authors are Timothy Ellsworth and Clinton Castro.

00:08:09 Speaker_02
These are philosophers from Florida International University. All right, so I'm going to jump through this paper somewhat selectively to pull out what I think the important parts are. So I'm actually going to start by jumping ahead here a little bit.

00:08:25 Speaker_02
I'll sort of keep up with this on the screen, I suppose, for those who are watching, but I'm going to read everything, so don't worry if you're just listening. Okay, so I'm going to jump ahead here. They're talking here about digital minimalism.

00:08:39 Speaker_02
Let me read from the paper. Authors like Cal Newport, who coined the term digital minimalism, argue that we would be better off if we restructured our relationships with technology on our own terms

00:08:51 Speaker_02
He understands digital minimalism as, quote, a philosophy of technology use in which you focus your online time on a small number of carefully selected and optimized activities that strongly support things you value and then happily miss out on everything else.

00:09:06 Speaker_02
A philosophy of technology use is a personal philosophy that covers which digital tools we allow into our lives, for what reasons, and under what constraints. Newport's definition outlines a noble ideal

00:09:20 Speaker_02
but we are happy to adopt a less demanding understanding of this notion. I'm kind of jumping ahead here a little bit.

00:09:26 Speaker_02
We understand a digital minimalist as one whose interactions with digital technology are intentional such that they do not conflict with their ends.

00:09:34 Speaker_02
For most, being a minimalist will involve a serious reduction in some cases to the point of elimination of interactions with smartphones, smartphone apps, and social media sites. For some, it may even require living up to Newport's ideal.

00:09:51 Speaker_02
I'm going to jump ahead one more time here. Newport may very well be right that we have prudential reasons to reduce our smartphone usage. Perhaps most people would be better off if they became digital minimalists.

00:10:02 Speaker_02
But if the Kantian argument that follows is sound, then we might have even more compelling reasons to adopt the end of digital minimalism. We may have moral reasons. All right, so let's make sense of what just happened there.

00:10:16 Speaker_02
They introduced my idea of digital minimalism.

00:10:19 Speaker_02
They simplify it a little bit to make it a little bit more general, but they say basically, yes, this idea that Newport introduced is one of being very intentional about how you use your technology so that it supports instead of impeding what you value.

00:10:31 Speaker_02
That is the core idea of my book, Digital Minimalism. It's at the core of my personal technology philosophy. The key thing they say, this is setting up the argument that we're going to explore, is to say, look, Cal in his book,

00:10:45 Speaker_02
has what they call prudential reasons for why you should be a digital minimalist. What they mean is like practical reasons.

00:10:52 Speaker_02
I go through like, hey, when you let technology get in the way of your values, there's like all this stuff that you don't do that you would otherwise like to do, and I think you're going to like your life better.

00:11:02 Speaker_02
It's sort of pragmatic, practical, direct argument to your experience and intuition. They're saying, yes, that might all be true.

00:11:10 Speaker_02
But we are going to make an argument that draws from Kant that says there is also a moral reason, that we can draw from moral philosophy that says whether you want to or not, you are obligated to be a digital minimalist.

00:11:25 Speaker_02
That now is the argument that is made in this paper that we are going to draw out, a moral argument for being a digital minimalist. All right, so I'm going to jump back to the beginning here.

00:11:36 Speaker_02
They set up a quick example which they used to explore some of the issues with modern technology. So they begin by drawing from a quote from a comedian. So let me read this to you. I wish I could read. I really do, says comedian Esther Povidesky.

00:11:53 Speaker_02
I try to read. I buy books. I open books and then I black out and I'm on Instagram and I don't know what happened. To many of us, this is a familiar occurrence.

00:12:02 Speaker_02
All too often, we set out to complete a task, but we are interrupted and subsequently derailed by our wireless mobile devices.

00:12:12 Speaker_02
Incidents of this kind might involve a moral failure, for insofar as we are morally required to cultivate and protect our autonomy, we fail to meet this requirement by falling prey to mobile phone addiction. Okay, so the first

00:12:30 Speaker_02
link in the chain they're going to make in this moral argument is that our issues with smartphone usage as captured by this anecdote of this comedian saying, I try to read, but I can't, I'm going to read this book by end up on Instagram.

00:12:45 Speaker_02
They say, this could be seen as impacting our autonomy. And if it impacts our autonomy, we might be able to find a moral reason why this is bad first. However, they have to establish

00:12:58 Speaker_02
is the way we use things like smartphones actually affecting our autonomy. And what they do here is they go through three different ways that other thinkers have thought about autonomy.

00:13:06 Speaker_02
And for each of these says it's basically self-evident that the behavior we're thinking about, the behavior we observed in that comedian, um, Pavlisky is violating these definitions of autonomy. All right, so let's go through these real quick.

00:13:19 Speaker_02
They say in order to substantiate the claim that smartphone addiction undermines autonomy, we must say more. about the concept at issue.

00:13:29 Speaker_02
Personal autonomy has been defined in a variety of ways, but we believe that a minimal definition of self-governance is sufficient for our purposes here. So they're going to go through some examples here of definitions of autonomy.

00:13:42 Speaker_02
They say, let's return to Povidesky's case from the beginning. According to what they call the Frankfurt Dworkin model,

00:13:50 Speaker_02
Povitsky's, or Povitsky's, sorry, first order desire to check Instagram while reading is inconsistent with her higher order desire, i.e. to want to read.

00:14:01 Speaker_02
All right, so the Frankfurt Dworkin model talks about first order and higher order desires, the things that actually is directing your activities right now versus what you want to be the case.

00:14:12 Speaker_02
And if these are out of sync, you have an autonomy problem. So like by that model,

00:14:18 Speaker_02
Looking at Instagram when you want to read is an autonomy issue because your higher-order desire is I want to read, but your first-order desire that's actually directing your activities is looking at Instagram.

00:14:26 Speaker_02
Alright, here's another model due to Watson. On Watson's characterization, what is distinctive about compulsive behavior...

00:14:35 Speaker_02
is that the desires and emotions and questions are more or less radically independent of the evaluational systems of these agents.

00:14:42 Speaker_02
Povidisky's smartphone use is inconsistent with her evaluative judgments about what she ought to be doing, and the behavior is compulsive.

00:14:48 Speaker_02
All right, so Watson says, if you're doing something that you would evaluate to be not good or less good than something else, then the behavior must be compulsive. By the way, that connects to the way psychologists think about

00:15:03 Speaker_02
behavioral addiction, the persistence in an activity, even though it's, you know, it's not valuable or it's in the way of things, you know, to be more valuable. Finally, they have a model of autonomy due to Bratman.

00:15:15 Speaker_02
Bratman defends a model of autonomy that requires harmony between what the agent does and more than her more or less long-term plans. Surely, Povidesky's behavior fails on this count as well.

00:15:28 Speaker_02
We can suppose that Povidesky, like many of us, would like to read many books over the course of her life.

00:15:33 Speaker_02
and to develop a disposition of being able to sit and enjoy reading for long stretches, the action of looking at her phone compulsively is not consistent with her long-term plans.

00:15:42 Speaker_02
All right, so to summarize, no matter which model one adopts, the result is likely to be the same. Havadisky is not autonomous with respect to her smartphone usage. All right, so we've established this first link in our argumentative chain.

00:15:57 Speaker_02
The way we use smartphones today seems to be hurting our autonomy. We can look at several official definitions of autonomy and see that smartphone usage of the type that we think of, a type in that example, is breaking those models. Okay.

00:16:17 Speaker_02
So why is that bad? This is the next link in their moral argument chain. This is where we turn our attention to Immanuel Kant. Although some ethicists reject the very notion of duties to oneself, Kant makes them a central component of his moral theory.

00:16:36 Speaker_02
In fact, I'll turn to this in the article here for those who are watching along at home. I'm just scrolling. This is section three. He says that they take first place and are the most important of all.

00:16:53 Speaker_02
He goes so far as to suggest that duties to oneself are the foundation of duties to others, making them the precondition of all moral duties.

00:17:02 Speaker_02
But he worries that they have not been properly understood and claims that no part of morals has been more defectively treated than this of the duties to oneself.

00:17:10 Speaker_02
He thinks that they have been misunderstood as a mere elevation of self-interest, a duty to promote one's own happiness, which he dismisses as an absurdity. Rather than grounding such duties in egoism, Kant argues that humanity, i.e. rational nature,

00:17:24 Speaker_02
as an absolute, inherent value, and this generates self-regarding obligations insofar as the agent is morally required to respect humanity in our own person.

00:17:33 Speaker_02
Thus, duties to oneself are derived from the humanity formulation of the categorical imperative, which tells us that we must always treat humanity, even in our own person, as an end, never merely as a means."

00:17:44 Speaker_02
Alright, so Kant is arguing we have a duty to ourselves as much as we have a duty to other people. And we have a moral duty in particular for self-governing what is most important about our humanity. Okay, so what is that? Jump ahead briefly.

00:18:05 Speaker_02
Kant famously claims that human beings, in virtue of their rational agency, have a uniquely elevated status which he calls dignity. So the idea that we are rational beings and no other creatures or objects are,

00:18:18 Speaker_02
gives us this sort of special value and preserving what he calls the dignity of ourselves as rational beings is sort of the highest good. We have an obligation to help protect this in ourselves and others.

00:18:35 Speaker_02
Moving on here, on this view, our actions can either express or fail to express the kind of respect that is becoming of human dignity.

00:18:46 Speaker_02
So he's saying our actions need to be focused on respecting our human dignity, and our human dignity is based on the idea that we are rational beings. All right, so we're really in the weeds here, Jesse.

00:18:59 Speaker_02
We're deep in moral reasoning, but out of this and a bunch of other words that I'm kind of skipping, we get to an actual argument form here. All right? So they end up with three propositions that lead to a conclusion. Humanity is proposition one.

00:19:19 Speaker_02
Humanity, i.e. rational agency, has an objective, unconditional, non-fungible value, which is dignity. Proposition two, anything that has dignity ought to be respected as an end and never treated as a mere means.

00:19:34 Speaker_02
Proposition three, if humanity ought to be respected as an end and never treated as a mere means, then we have an imperfect duty to cultivate and protect our rational agency.

00:19:45 Speaker_02
Therefore, the conclusion of these three propositions, we have an imperfect duty to cultivate and protect our rational agency. All right, we're getting in the weeds here. Logical philosophy, morality all pulled together. They then put these together.

00:20:01 Speaker_02
They get to their core argument. We have an imperfect duty to cultivate and protect our rational agency. If we have an imperfect duty to cultivate and protect our rational agency, then we ought to adopt the end of digital minimalism.

00:20:15 Speaker_02
Therefore, we ought to adopt the end of digital minimalism.

00:20:19 Speaker_02
If you take my discrete mathematics course at Georgetown, where we study propositional logic, you will actually recognize this argument and could probably turn it into the corresponding argument form.

00:20:32 Speaker_02
So basically, we have just done a lot of reasoning based on Kant's ideas that lead end up with the conclusion. we ought to adopt the end of digital minimalism.

00:20:45 Speaker_02
If we simplify all of this, we're basically saying it is important to respect our own dignity as rational beings. The way that we use smartphones when we're unintentional robs us of our ability to do this because it robs us of autonomy.

00:21:08 Speaker_02
And autonomy is at the core of respecting the dignity of being a rational being because at the core of being a rational being is the ability to make decisions about what you do rationally.

00:21:18 Speaker_02
The Comte and framework is seeing this core tension between we need to respect the fact that we are rational beings and smartphones take away our ability to make rational decisions about what we want to do with our life and our time. Therefore,

00:21:36 Speaker_02
An approach to life that reduces smartphone's ability of taking away our autonomy is justified. Digital minimalism is sort of the definition of such a life. It's an approach to digital technology.

00:21:51 Speaker_02
It says we want to be intentional, not be robbed of our autonomy. Therefore, there's a sort of fundamental Kantian moral argument that we should be very intentional about our technology use using something like digital minimalism.

00:22:04 Speaker_02
Let me read the conclusion of this paper because I think they sum this up very nicely. They're all lit up here on the screen for those who are watching at home. All right, so here's the conclusion of the authors in this paper.

00:22:15 Speaker_02
We have argued that there is a moral obligation to be intentional about our use of smartphones and other addictive devices. We have this duty because we are required to protect the most valuable commodity we possess, autonomy.

00:22:28 Speaker_02
Kant believes that the proper exercise of our autonomy is the only thing that is good without qualification, something that shines like a jewel having its full worth in itself.

00:22:38 Speaker_02
To wantonly forfeit some of our agency by falling prey to technological heteronomy is to demonstrate a failure to respect this precious capacity as the treasure that it is. All right, so why are we geeking out

00:22:56 Speaker_02
So it's like a technical academic argument for the type of things we talked about here on the show and actually not just the type of things Specifically what we talked about on the show because of course they're talking about my specific digital minimalism philosophy It's because I think it is easy in thinking about technology and human flourishing the fallback on arguments such as

00:23:20 Speaker_02
Look, kids these days, for example, they're always using different technology. We get worried about it, but that's just the wheels of progress. Or we fall back on an argument that says every new technology creates moral panics, right?

00:23:34 Speaker_02
And then we get over it. We worried about the car, but now we just drive cars. We worried about TV. Now we don't worry about TV as much. It's easy to fall back on these arguments of status quo thinking.

00:23:46 Speaker_02
What's critical about this particular argument is it says, no, there's justifications for our concerns about these technology that are much more fundamental than thinking about specific technologies.

00:23:58 Speaker_02
Our uneasiness about these technologies is not just a naive reaction to the latest techno disruption in a long line of techno disruptions that ultimately end up being not so bad. We are actually reflecting a specific harm, denial of autonomy.

00:24:17 Speaker_02
and that we can go back to Kant or before to see that this is at the core of the human experience, is at the core of what we value as humans.

00:24:25 Speaker_02
And so yes, we're uneasy not because we're naive, we're uneasy because something basic to our humanity is at stake. So this Kantian argument is pointing towards the exceptional nature of the issue we face with things like smartphones.

00:24:41 Speaker_02
We cannot just ontologically speaking put in the same category as like any other type of techno fear. It is a specific technical fear which requires analysis on its own terms.

00:24:51 Speaker_02
And when we do that, we see there are specific harms here that cannot be ignored. So if someone's giving you a lot of trouble about your digital minimalism, if they're making fun of you or if they're trying to self-justify their own heavy phone use,

00:25:07 Speaker_02
You can now throw a lot of sort of annoying technical philosophical terms at them. You could say things like heteronomy, sorry, even I can't get that right. You could say things like heteronomy and ontological.

00:25:19 Speaker_02
You can mention the categorical imperative, keep dropping the word Kantian, and they will just have to be quiet. All right, so there we go, a nerd argument for a very real issue.

00:25:35 Speaker_02
So I actually found that article at Jesse because there's a follow-up article that said, um, all right, if that's true, there's also an obligation. Others have to protect your autonomy through digital technology as well.

00:25:47 Speaker_02
That there's like a moral imperative not to distract other people. It's a whole interesting argument. All right. But enough of that nerdiness. We got some good questions, but first let's hear from a sponsor.

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00:29:08 Speaker_02
We know a lot of other middle school parents. They're going through this thought process of my kid needs a phone for X, Y, or Z, taking the public transportation, getting picked up from practice. I don't want to give him a smartphone. What do we do?

00:29:19 Speaker_02
I've been telling them just, hey, buy a flip phone on Amazon and give them the 15 bucks a month plan for Mint Mobile. It's cheap, it's easy, and they'll have access.

00:29:29 Speaker_02
So I've been telling more and more people use Mint Mobile to quickly set up a dumb phone for their kids. So if you want to get started, go to mintmobile.com slash deep.

00:29:39 Speaker_02
There you'll see there right now, all three month plans are only 15 bucks a month, including the unlimited plan. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.

00:29:50 Speaker_02
You can use your own phone or a phone you just buy on Amazon if you want a dumb phone, whatever you want to do with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts.

00:29:59 Speaker_02
Find out how easy it is to switch to Mint Mobile and get three months of premium wireless for just 15 bucks a month. To get this new customer offer and your new three-month premium wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com slash deep.

00:30:13 Speaker_02
That's mintmobile.com slash deep. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash deep. $45 upfront payment required, which is equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three-month plan only.

00:30:26 Speaker_02
Speed slower by 40 gigabytes in unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for detail. All right, Jesse, let's do some questions.

00:30:36 Speaker_04
First question's from Kirsten from Missouri. I just ordered Digital Minimalism to help me stop wasting time. I tried without success to use some distraction-free apps. Can these apps actually work?

00:30:49 Speaker_02
Well, let me back up a little bit because it looks like you're thinking about Digital Minimalism as a collection of tips for trying to stop wasting time or to be less distracted.

00:31:03 Speaker_02
That's the standard cultural paradigm we often have for thinking about advice, especially for things like digital distraction. Give me some tips. I want to read like the five ways to save your attention in some sort of magazine article.

00:31:14 Speaker_02
And let me put a couple of those into play. It looks like you, you heard about distraction for yaps. I do talk about them in the book. Like, Hey, I tried them. It didn't work well.

00:31:22 Speaker_02
So the first thing I want you to understand is that digital minimalism is not a collection of tips, but a philosophy.

00:31:28 Speaker_02
It's a philosophy of technology use, a consistent way of thinking about the role of technology in your life and how you curate and engage with technologies in your life. It's a bit of a binary proposition.

00:31:40 Speaker_02
You either need to adopt the philosophy or not. You can't just pick and choose specific things to show up in the philosophy itself. The metaphor I like to use is cleaning out a closet that's overstuffed with junk.

00:31:56 Speaker_02
So if you had a closet that's overstuffed with junk, what you are doing to the equivalent in the closet metaphor of like, Hey, I, I'm going to try to help my online distraction because I heard like apps might help.

00:32:06 Speaker_02
That's the equivalent in our closet metaphor of going to the container store and be like, Hey, I bought some organizers.

00:32:13 Speaker_02
And then you return to your overstuffed closet and you're like, okay, I have a few organizer bins here that I put some of the stuff in your closet. Still a nightmare.

00:32:21 Speaker_02
What works better for the closet while the Marie Kondo approach, if I'm going to empty the whole thing out, empty it to zero. I'm going to put everything that was in that closet in the piles.

00:32:31 Speaker_02
I'm going to go through and say, which of this stuff do I really, really need? And that stuff I will put back into the closet very carefully. If I don't really need it, it doesn't go back in. That's how you organize your closet. It's a net zero budget.

00:32:44 Speaker_02
You start from zero and add back in the stuff you need carefully, not just trying to throw organizational bins at the junk that's already in there. So that's what digital minimalism is, right?

00:32:55 Speaker_02
Instead of just throwing a particular piece of advice at your digital distraction, you're gonna reinvent your digital life from scratch, taking everything out, reflecting for a month, and then only adding back in what matters with rules about how you're gonna use it.

00:33:08 Speaker_02
Okay, to get to your specific point about distraction-free apps, in this process they can have a use, typically they're useful training tools,

00:33:21 Speaker_02
If there's a particular technology that you need to use but only use in a limited way and you have a very strong urge to keep going back to it, distraction-free apps can help you train to resist that urge because it makes it very difficult to access those technologies in times you don't want to.

00:33:38 Speaker_02
Typically what happens with people is after a few months of using distraction-free apps, they lose the urge. to go use that technology compulsively because they've gotten that groove out of their mind.

00:33:50 Speaker_02
The reward circuit weakens and then they don't use them anymore. So you might use a distraction-free app as part of your efforts to recreate your digital life, but typically their uses are more temporary.

00:34:00 Speaker_02
They're a training tool, not a permanent feature of your digital landscape.

00:34:06 Speaker_04
I love the condo advice, how she, and you get rid of something and you express gratitude to it. And then you're like, bye.

00:34:13 Speaker_02
Tick tock. I express gratitude to the role you played in my life. Our journeys have, our journeys have crossed. Our journeys have parted. Yeah, she's very calming. All right, who do we got next?

00:34:24 Speaker_04
Next question is from JP. I get stressed with my goals due to fear of failure. I keep everything in my head and can't distinguish from urgent and not urgent. I pretty much never finished what I start.

00:34:35 Speaker_02
Well look, you can't, in the modern world, you can't organize your life just in your head. Just trying to remember what you want to do, all the things you have to do, your priorities, somehow use this all to make a decision about what to do next.

00:34:52 Speaker_02
The human brain can't do that. It's like trying to teach a bear to drive a car. It might be funny, uh, or terrifying, but it's probably not going to work very well. The human brain can't on its own organize a modern life.

00:35:07 Speaker_02
So what do you need to do instead? Well, you're going to need something like multi-scale planning. That is a system that can get all of the stuff you need to do and your plan for how you're going to tackle it.

00:35:20 Speaker_02
out of your head and into a sort of trusted permanent system that you can frequently access. You basically have to extend your mind like a cyborg with other tools to make this complicated task of organizing your life much more tractable.

00:35:35 Speaker_02
So multi-player scanning, which I talk about a lot on this show, has you planning things on multiple scales, each of which have their own systems to go with it.

00:35:43 Speaker_02
At the highest scale, you have a plan for the current season or quarter where you're making sense of your bigger priorities. You reference that quarterly or seasonal plan every week.

00:35:53 Speaker_02
When you make a weekly plan, you physically write out your weekly plan.

00:35:57 Speaker_02
Also, when you do your weekly plan, you confront your calendar, you make adjustments, you add to your calendar appointments with yourself to work on particularly important priorities from your quarterly or seasonal plans.

00:36:08 Speaker_02
So now you have a written weekly plan and a calendar that's been updated and corrected for the week.

00:36:13 Speaker_02
And then every day you look at your calendar and your weekly plan when you make a time block plan for that day where you give every minute of your work day a job. So you're not just trying to decide on the fly, what do I want to work on next?

00:36:26 Speaker_02
You've made a plan for the time that remains in your day between meetings and other appointments, what you want to do at that time. So you can balance your energy with your needs.

00:36:35 Speaker_02
You can batch, you can be efficient, you can avoid excessive context switching, et cetera. So each of these levels, you have different tools.

00:36:44 Speaker_02
All of this is gonna be supported by a task system where you're gonna keep track of all the obligations you have to do. You'll look at that task system when you're doing your weekly plans, you'll reference it during admin blocks in your daily plans.

00:36:54 Speaker_02
All of these are external systems with structure around them that you use so that your brain doesn't have to be responsible on its own for keeping track of what you have to do and making decisions in an ad hoc way. So you need something like

00:37:10 Speaker_02
multi-scale planning if you're going to keep track of your life. So you shouldn't be worried, I would say, that you're struggling to do this in your head. That's a bear driving a car. That is pretty impossible.

00:37:24 Speaker_02
Actually, true point about bears driving cars, Jesse, really hard to get insured. It's a really high insurance rate. Especially if you live in West Coast of Florida. If you live in the West Coast of Florida, yeah.

00:37:38 Speaker_02
Get a bear to drive a car, high insurance rate.

00:37:41 Speaker_04
All right, what do we got? Next question is from Joseph. I'm a teacher looking to improve my efficiency with admin tasks.

00:37:49 Speaker_04
When I have a quiz in two different subjects to grade and record, is the task context switching effect less if I were to grade and record one class than the other, or if I were to grade both and then record both as blocks?

00:38:02 Speaker_02
Well, it's a good question because I'm glad you're thinking about context shifting as more or less the number one productivity poison you want to be wary about. Long-time listeners know this.

00:38:11 Speaker_02
It takes time to switch your target of your attention from one target to another.

00:38:15 Speaker_02
So if you're moving your attention back and forth rapidly, you're going to put your mind into the state of continuous partial attention, which is a self-imposed cognitive deficit. You make yourself quite literally dumber. In this case,

00:38:30 Speaker_02
Recording grades into a gradebook is mechanical and largely non-cognitive. In other words, you don't have to do difficult thinking. You're just taking numbers, matching it to a name, writing that name in there. You don't have to do difficult thinking.

00:38:45 Speaker_02
You don't have to load up complicated cognitive context. You don't have to make decisions or pull from complicated memories. So I'm not too super worried about the context shift price when you go to just entering grades.

00:39:01 Speaker_02
Because again, mechanical thing, it's almost like you're working hard on something like writing a hard book chapter. If you get up and go make a cup of tea and then come back, that's not actually going to be a big hit.

00:39:13 Speaker_02
That context shift is not going to be a big hit on your primary test because it's mechanical and not cognitive. So this is all to say, it doesn't really matter where you put the grade recording. It's whatever you have preference for.

00:39:26 Speaker_02
So you could grade one thing, then grade the other thing, and then have a long block of just mechanically entering grades. Or you could grade one thing, enter the grades, grade another thing, enter the grades.

00:39:35 Speaker_02
It's not gonna make a difference cognitively. It's just gonna be a matter of what's gonna feel better for you. I would suspect the difference would come down to how demanding the grading is. So if the grading is really hard,

00:39:49 Speaker_02
And if the subjects between the two things you're grading, the two quizzes, is separate, like it's not the same cognitive context, I would enter the grades right after grading to give your mind a breather, right?

00:40:04 Speaker_02
I would also consider, let's get advanced here, cognitively advanced. Consider grading the first thing. Before you enter those grades, go look at the second thing and maybe like read one of the quizzes to try to start loading that cognitive context.

00:40:24 Speaker_02
Grade a single quiz of the next thing. This is gonna go slow at first, right? Because you now have colliding cognitive context as you look at the second quiz for the first time. That's a separate context from the quiz you just graded.

00:40:42 Speaker_02
And so there's gonna be a collision as your brain is trying to shut down the context of the first grading block and load the context of the second. So grading that first quiz of the second, the first assignment of the first quiz.

00:40:53 Speaker_02
I don't know how to say this, Jesse. It's a quiz and he has multiple quizzes to grade and there's two different quizzes. Does that make sense?

00:40:59 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:41:00 Speaker_02
All right. So you're in the second type of quiz and you grade the first quiz from the second type of quiz. And that's very hard because it's a new context. Grade just one from the second type of quiz.

00:41:11 Speaker_02
Then, here's my advanced advice, go back and enter the grades from your first quiz. Because here's what's happening.

00:41:19 Speaker_02
While you are entering the grades from the first type of quiz, your brain is continuing in the background the process of switching its context over to the second type of quiz.

00:41:27 Speaker_02
You initiated that by looking at a single quiz of that second type, and now you go back and just mechanically enter grades, your brain is going to continue making this switch.

00:41:36 Speaker_02
So now when you're done entering those grades and you return to the second type of quiz, your context has more thoroughly shifted and your grading is going to get up to speed much quicker.

00:41:46 Speaker_02
This is kind of an advanced way of thinking about it, but that's what you probably would see this effect.

00:41:51 Speaker_02
If instead you grade the first type of quiz, you enter the grades, then you turn to the second type of quiz, it might take, you might have to grade five or six students quizzes before you get that momentum going of your brain completely shifting.

00:42:06 Speaker_02
Whereas with my tactic, You grade the first type of quiz, grade one of the second type, enter the grades, then return to the rest of the second type, you'll probably get up to speed much quicker. This is just, at this point, like attention hacking.

00:42:18 Speaker_02
The differences might be minor. But I do like the type of thinking this induces, which is to think about cognitive context. It's like one of the most important properties of modern work.

00:42:29 Speaker_02
And it's the property that we think almost nothing about in modern office productivity. We completely disregard it. We put low friction as a priority. We put information velocity as a priority.

00:42:41 Speaker_02
We put access to tools and data as a priority and we completely disregard the cost of context shifting. So I love any discussion like this that gets us in the weeds on it. This sort of psychologically aware productivity is really where we should be.

00:42:55 Speaker_02
So, you know, I appreciate the chance to sort of nerd out on that.

00:42:58 Speaker_04
We'll have to have Joseph respond and see, see how it goes.

00:43:02 Speaker_02
Yeah, he should. So Joseph, you hear this, let us know if that technique works.

00:43:07 Speaker_04
All right, where are we? Next question is from Francois. I'm a professor and also have a French podcast. My university has agreed to include it in my official duties. I haven't accepted their offer yet.

00:43:18 Speaker_04
However, if I do accept it, how should I think about organizing my podcast within the traditional academic framework of research, teaching, and service? Should this be included in my academic tasks?

00:43:31 Speaker_02
It's a good question, Francois. I had a French podcast for a while, I don't know if you know this. Yeah, and you had a pipe and a hat. I had a pipe and a hat and I just did my French accent.

00:43:42 Speaker_02
Long story short, I am no longer welcome in the Republic of France. I have been banned from setting foot in France after they heard my awesome accent. Francois, it's a good question.

00:43:55 Speaker_02
I don't know the French system super well, so I'm going to answer this from the perspective of the American academic system, which I think is like roughly congruent. All right.

00:44:08 Speaker_02
So in the American academic system, by far the most important thing for promotion and recognition is research. You have to do service. You need to be a good teacher, but those alone can't get you promoted or recognized.

00:44:24 Speaker_02
It has to be the quality of your research. So if your university is going to allow you to count your podcast as an official academic task,

00:44:34 Speaker_02
I would recommend that you are very clear about which of the three major tasks, research, service, and teaching, that it counts as, and I would try to make it count as service.

00:44:45 Speaker_02
When you count it as service, what this means is you can reduce the amount of other service you do, right?

00:44:52 Speaker_02
Let the podcast take the place of other service obligations, so you're not increasing your time obligations, and critically, you're not reducing the time you spend on research.

00:45:02 Speaker_02
Because when it comes to service and promotion, it's a little bit more binary. Was this person a good citizen of the institution and his community? Not how good of a service person were they, right?

00:45:14 Speaker_02
So if you can use your podcast as a way to reduce other types of service so your overall time footprint's the same, that's great. Do not let it, however, impinge on the time you spend doing research. That's ultimately what matters most.

00:45:26 Speaker_02
Trust me, I've gone through two promotions. I'm done with promotions now, but I went through both my promotions from assistant to associate with tenure and from associate with tenure to full.

00:45:37 Speaker_02
Both of those promotions, I had large portfolios of more public facing work and I had to deal with them carefully. When I was promoted to associate, I didn't mention my books. It was all computer science research. When I went to full,

00:45:54 Speaker_02
I did mention them because as we just saw in the deep dive, some of the work, public-facing work I did also has a very big academic footprint, right?

00:46:03 Speaker_02
We just did a whole paper from the Journal of Applied Philosophy in the deep dive that was responding to my digital minimalism book. My book, Deep Work, has been cited in academic articles close to 800 times now.

00:46:14 Speaker_02
I was just looking at that the other day. So I did sort of count that more. But I didn't lean into my podcast, even though I was past a 10 million download point at that point, because it didn't quite fit clearly into, it's not research.

00:46:29 Speaker_02
And I didn't have an agreement like yours that this counted as service. I sort of had it as a sort of on the side. So I know this world well, ultimately promotions matter. Are you doing work that's influencing the academic culture?

00:46:41 Speaker_02
So that's what you gotta be careful about. So yeah, if you can use your podcast, that reduce other service loads, then I think that's great because your podcast will probably have a higher impact than the other service you're replacing.

00:46:54 Speaker_02
Just don't let it get in the way of research.

00:46:56 Speaker_04
So now that you're a full professor, do you still have to write as many papers?

00:47:01 Speaker_02
It's more flexible. Yeah, it's more flexible. Right now, I'm focusing more on technology and digital ethics than I am computer science. And that's the type of thing you can explore. It's sort of the advantage of full professoredom in 10 years.

00:47:15 Speaker_02
You can make those explorations. And if you don't like the way it's going, you can switch back to something else. One of the things that made a big difference for me is that... So Google Scholar is a quick way you can keep up on people's publications.

00:47:28 Speaker_02
What have they published? How much have they been cited? What are their statistics, like their H-index, their I-10 index, what are their total citation counts, what are their total citation counts by years?

00:47:39 Speaker_02
Once Google Scholar figured out, because I write under two different names, my academic computer science papers are typically written under Calvin Newport, and of course my public-facing writings under Cal Newport.

00:47:50 Speaker_02
When it figured out, oh, Calvin Newport and Cal Newport are the same person, it really changed my statistics.

00:47:59 Speaker_02
So where you saw a sort of bit of a fall off in citations in recent years, now shows a steady high level of citations because the public facing work on technology I was doing as Cal Newport gets cited a lot academically.

00:48:14 Speaker_02
So it's, it's, um, it shows a sort of smooth transition from less computer science, more digital ethics, and the impact is measured by citations as sort of stayed steady.

00:48:24 Speaker_04
I thought you were saying the other name was going to be your French name.

00:48:27 Speaker_02
Yeah, well, yeah, there's Calvin Newport, there's Cal Newport, and there's Pierre. Pierre Le Newport. Actually, I do have a French heritage. My paternal grandmother was a level.

00:48:48 Speaker_02
the level family and the level family goes all the way back to the French Huguenots. They came over here pre-revolution and they used to be Laval as French of a French Huguenot blood back in there. All right, what do we got next? We have our corner.

00:49:04 Speaker_02
Ooh, slow productivity corner. Let's hear that theme music. So for those who are new, Slow Productivity Corner is the question.

00:49:16 Speaker_02
We do one question each week related to my most recent book, Slow Productivity, The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout. I'm on Amazon, so I can see us now. I'm on Amazon's Best Business Books of 2024.

00:49:28 Speaker_02
And the winner of Best Business Book of the Year from the S something, something, something. S-A-B-E-W. It has those letters in it. There's a huge cash prize, guys. This is an important award. Somewhere between 60 and $600,000 reward.

00:49:44 Speaker_02
My award-winning book, Slow Productivity, we try to do a question each week that comes from that book. If you haven't read the book yet, come on, get the book. Half the stuff we talk about comes from it.

00:49:53 Speaker_02
All right, what's our Slow Productivity corner question of the week?

00:49:56 Speaker_04
It's from Madonna's Gold Tooth. Yikes. What do you think about the slow living craze on the internet and do you think it's just a fad or will it be permanent? All right, so do you know what this is, Jesse? There's a YouTube video.

00:50:09 Speaker_01
You have a YouTube video? Yeah. It'll explain what slow living is?

00:50:14 Speaker_02
Because I don't actually know what this is. All right, let's load this up. Let's listen here. We're going to be learning this together, what slow living is, and then I can answer this question. Madonna's gold tooth. All right.

00:50:28 Speaker_03
One of the things I am most scared of in my life is looking back with regret, looking back at all the little moments that I missed in pursuit of more.

00:50:38 Speaker_03
This year, I've been really working on slowing down and trying to be more present for the little moments that make up most of our lives and making sure that I'm actually building a life by design and not just by default.

00:50:50 Speaker_03
So these are some simple, tiny habits that I have implemented that have really helped me slow down.

00:50:54 Speaker_03
five minutes of nothing this is literally a block that i have on my calendar every day just to have five minutes of nothing happening doesn't sound like a lot but when you don't have any music no podcast no work that you're thinking of a work that you're doing a book that you're reading for just five minutes and you sit there and you

00:51:12 Speaker_03
you stare at a wall, not trying to meditate, but you just let your brain kind of do its thing and you observe it.

00:51:16 Speaker_03
It's a beautiful time for me to just kind of reset and make sure that there's actually breaks in my life to remember that my life is not online, it's not on a computer screen, and sometimes I need physical breaks to make that happen. Three zones.

00:51:29 Speaker_03
For me, this is my sauna, my cold plunge.

00:51:31 Speaker_02
All right, I think I get the idea.

00:51:35 Speaker_02
Well, first of all, for those who are just listening instead of watching, the video had like a faux graininess while they played like really relaxing music and he washed eggs from the chickens that he just stared at. I think with that type of music.

00:51:51 Speaker_02
I like the music a lot. Yeah. I think almost anything seems, almost anything seems profound.

00:51:55 Speaker_04
73,000 views.

00:51:58 Speaker_02
Yeah. I mean, almost anything I think will sound sort of important and meaningful and somber.

00:52:05 Speaker_02
You could have a video of someone earnestly trying and failing to life threatening in a life threatening way to get a bear into the car to drive it, play to that music, but good for him. Good for him.

00:52:20 Speaker_02
You know, the bears molly known as he's trying to get them into a Chevy Impala, play it to that music and cut to some scenes of someone washing eggs.

00:52:27 Speaker_02
You'd be like, yeah, life is like a bear trying to get into a car, drive to the insurance agency and get the insurance card. Just him at the insurance agency. Just his face ripped up and bandages trying to get the insurance guys just shaking his head.

00:52:38 Speaker_02
You'd be like, yeah, that's play that music. You're like, yeah, it's profound. Um, so no slow living and slow productivity are different.

00:52:48 Speaker_02
So let me tell you how and then I'm going to tell you what slow living seems to be like, connected to some other stuff we talk about. Slow productivity is about work. It's about knowledge work.

00:52:59 Speaker_02
It's about how do we define what productivity means in knowledge work.

00:53:04 Speaker_02
The core argument of that book is that we have a bad implicit definition that we tend to fall back on, which is pseudoproductivity, which is to use visible effort as a proxy for useful activity. Slow productivity is an alternative.

00:53:17 Speaker_02
It says our goal in knowledge work should not be to be as busy as possible. We should instead focus on not doing too many things at the same time, keeping our pace of work varied and natural, but then really obsessing over quality.

00:53:28 Speaker_02
and that this is a better, more sustainable definition of productivity. This is about work. Slow living seems to be about life outside of work and a lot to do with like distraction, especially digital distraction.

00:53:39 Speaker_02
So it's probably closer to digital minimalism when it comes to the things I talk and write about than anything else. I think if you're a digital minimalist, your life will seem slower in the way that's being talked about in this video.

00:53:53 Speaker_02
Because a digital minimalist works backwards from their values to dictate their technology use.

00:53:58 Speaker_02
And so, you know, if you value your chickens and washing your eggs or whatever, you are gonna be careful about crafting your technological use so that you're not always looking at your phone and you can't enjoy doing that.

00:54:09 Speaker_02
In general, digital minimalists do feel like their lives are slower and richer. There is a neurological reason for this, right? Your life is what you pay attention to.

00:54:20 Speaker_02
So if you're constantly paying attention to your phone, you perceive your life as very sort of like fast-paced,

00:54:26 Speaker_02
Emotionally activated, sort of this like really sort of shaky jittery world that's always rolling past because when you're looking at your phone, everything's moving fast.

00:54:34 Speaker_02
Swipe, swipe, swipe, tap, tap, tap, look at this, look at that, jump over there. Time moves fast because you're moving fast on your phone. Also time moves fast because you're doing this sort of homogenous behavior.

00:54:46 Speaker_02
So when you're doing sort of the same thing, you don't have a really good sense of how long time is. Time can just sort of unfold.

00:54:54 Speaker_02
When you're not on your phone and engaging in specific behaviors, it is just by definition slower because everything is slower than using your phone.

00:55:02 Speaker_02
And because those behaviors are novel, they're different specific things in novel specific locations, your perception of time is of it being much slower. Your day seems longer, your experience is richer.

00:55:15 Speaker_02
So I think digital minimalism will probably lead you to something like slower living. Start with the digital minimalism and end up at the slower living Right.

00:55:25 Speaker_02
It's sort of a consequence of getting intentional about your life and technology But it is quite separate from slow productivity.

00:55:31 Speaker_02
They share the same word slow But they're only connected by this idea of sort of intentionality slope activities about your work at your desk Slow living is about your life outside of work. Does that seem reasonable Jesse? Yeah, I

00:55:44 Speaker_02
Maybe we should have chickens in here. I like that video. We should do, we should do more of that music. We have kind of music, cooler music like, like that for, um, the in-depth episodes. Yeah. It was a little more like a meditative music. All right.

00:55:58 Speaker_02
Do we have a call this week? We do. All right. Let's hear this.

00:56:02 Speaker_00
Hi Cal, I've noticed I struggle with tiredness and a lack of focus in the afternoons, especially during my scheduled deep work blocks. After lunch, my mind doesn't feel as sharp and I often find myself drifting off and daydreaming.

00:56:15 Speaker_00
Do you have any strategies to help maintain focus and mental clarity during these times? Thanks.

00:56:23 Speaker_02
Well, first of all, we have to keep in mind that there's a limited capacity to do deep work in a given day. So if you're talking about like highly demanding focused activities, Things that require you to use your full cognitive capacity.

00:56:37 Speaker_02
Probably do those in the morning. Do those first thing before you've had a lot of context shifts so your mind is still clear. And be okay. I got in a good, hard, early session.

00:56:47 Speaker_02
I'm okay not having to return to these cognitively demanding activities in the afternoon because I'm just not going to have enough cognitive gas. If it's more just, no, I have administrative stuff to do, I have to take notes, I have to send emails.

00:57:01 Speaker_02
It's not cognitively demanding, but I just sort of lose focus and drift and lose energy in the afternoon. Well, that's very common as well. And a couple things that helps is time blocking.

00:57:11 Speaker_02
So instead of having to constantly have an argument with yourself of like, what should I do next? Should I keep doing this? Should I take a break?

00:57:18 Speaker_02
Time block those afternoons and just make the single commitment to stick to your time block schedule the best you can. So you get rid of a lot of that decisional friction that comes from being more freeform in your approach to your afternoon.

00:57:31 Speaker_02
Second, in that time block schedule batch. Okay, so let me do a lot of similar tasks together, because even if minor, sticking within the same cognitive context makes it easier. This can apply even to cleaning out your email inbox.

00:57:47 Speaker_02
I recommend if you have like a super stuffed inbox and it's like three o'clock and you're exhausted, but you kind of have to get through it, Create a folder or label for the current messages you're answering.

00:57:57 Speaker_02
And then go through and grab a bunch of messages of the same type. So they're all relevant to the same cognitive context. They're all scheduling messages. They're all messages related to like an upcoming event.

00:58:08 Speaker_02
Move those all to that label or folder and then tackle those just by themselves. So now you're doing messages without having to change your context. Then go and grab another type of messages and do the same.

00:58:18 Speaker_02
What happens is if you follow the alternative of just sort of doing your emails in the order they exist in your inbox, you're switching potentially your cognitive context from message to message to message, and that's exhausting.

00:58:30 Speaker_02
So that can help as well. Third, end your day earlier. Hey, I'm exhausted by three or four, then maybe like stop your day between three and four. Time block your day.

00:58:39 Speaker_02
If you're doing multi-scale planning, you have a good weekly plan, your weekly plan's in touch with your quarterly plan. This is a key idea from my book, Slow Productivity.

00:58:48 Speaker_02
The second principle, it says work at a natural pace, which says this idea that like the perfect calibration for humans that do cognitive work is nine to five all out every day is preposterous. Why would that just happen to be optimal for everyone?

00:59:01 Speaker_02
You might find out work until 3 or 3.30, this is really what's optimal. You're time blocked, you're on it, and then when you're done, be done.

00:59:09 Speaker_02
Or maybe four, maybe two, it could be different for different people, but don't feel like you're too stuck with it has to be this exact eight hour day. Some people just run out of gas earlier than others.

00:59:19 Speaker_02
Your work might be harder than others, so you need to end earlier. I talk about in, I don't know if this is in Slow Productivity, I think this is in my book, A World Without Email.

00:59:29 Speaker_02
I talk about this type of programming called extreme programming, and it's pair-based, and it's super intense. And it produced fantastic code, but it's super intense.

00:59:40 Speaker_02
And I report that companies that do this type of coding, they produce really cool stuff, but they have to let people go home by like 2.30 or 3. It's just too exhausting. You can't do it till 5. People at first have to go home and take naps.

00:59:53 Speaker_02
So don't assume that everyone is perfectly calibrated to work all out till 5. figure out what works for you, if you're organized and on the ball, you'll produce good work. So I would vary it that way as well. All right, let's see here.

01:00:08 Speaker_02
We have a case study. This is where we have people write in where they talk about their personal experience putting the type of things we talk about the show in the practice in their own lives. All right, so today's case study comes from Zach.

01:00:24 Speaker_02
Now here's what Zach says. Recently, I've made a monumental life change for the better, in no small part due to cows, books, podcasts, and newsletter. I graduated in March of 2020.

01:00:36 Speaker_02
While my classes went online, I decided to get my real estate license and pursue my interest in real estate investments because of the high autonomy and market activity due to the interest rate environment at the time. I was successful.

01:00:48 Speaker_02
I specialized in commercial investment sales and became proficient in my field because of my implementation of deep work principles. The only problem was that I was miserable at work.

01:00:59 Speaker_02
My days mostly consisted of cold calling and driving all over the state for client meetings. So even though I was making decent money and had full autonomy, my lifestyle wasn't great and it was trending in the wrong direction.

01:01:11 Speaker_02
On top of that, I was working mostly solo while I'm a very team oriented person. After listening to your podcast religiously on my long drives, my mindset began to shift.

01:01:23 Speaker_02
I realized I was optimizing for autonomy and money without much thought to lifestyle and long-term life design. So I saved up some money and quit. Believe me, this was tough.

01:01:34 Speaker_02
Leveraging college principles got me far relatively quickly, so I had a promising career trajectory. But when I looked at guys way further down the road, they had a lot of material success without intentional design.

01:01:44 Speaker_02
After hunting and interviewing with jobs that aligned with my long-term lifestyle vision for a few months, I successfully landed a job at a tech startup that provides me a much better day today.

01:01:54 Speaker_02
It's a short, beautiful commute to an office in my favorite part of town. My work is varied, challenging, and interesting. And most importantly, I'm working with a like-minded team who are all just as obsessed about productivity systems as I am.

01:02:07 Speaker_02
I just finished my first week and I'm blown away at what a difference this intentional change has made in my life. For the first time in years, I'm bursting with excitement to go to work. Should I have applied for jobs while working?

01:02:19 Speaker_02
Probably, but I was so burnt out that I had a burn the ships mindset. I'm eagerly awaiting your next book nearly as much as I am awaiting Brandon Sanderson's the author of name of the wind.

01:02:29 Speaker_04
I didn't include that.

01:02:32 Speaker_02
Leave that in there. Uh, Brandon Sanderson. I still want to go down. I told you I have an invitation to go see his layer. I have to do that. Um, My wife is going on a trip down there.

01:02:46 Speaker_04
The Brandon Anderson.

01:02:46 Speaker_02
Well, no, not to, that would be weird. She's like, I'm going on a trip. I'm going to be spending a week in Brandon Sanderson's dungeon. I'd be, I'd be worried about that. No, she's going to that part of the country.

01:02:59 Speaker_02
And all I could think is like, if that was me going on that trip, I would be able to see Sanderson's lair. Yeah. It'd be interesting if I get there and it's just half of it's just a sex dungeon. Probably not.

01:03:13 Speaker_02
I think he's a pretty straight laced Mormon, but you never know. Uh, the least, least popular pornographic video of all time is titled Brandon Sanderson, sex dungeon, six views. Um, all right, that's a great Zach. I appreciated that.

01:03:35 Speaker_02
Uh, two things I want to point out about that case study, one lifestyle centric planning. That's the way to think about your career. It's one of the most important dials you have to turn in trying to construct your lifestyle.

01:03:47 Speaker_02
But what matters is the target lifestyle. What do you want the day-to-day of your life to be like? You work backwards from that vision. That's how you help figure out what work to do or not do.

01:03:55 Speaker_02
This is much more effective than either following your passion or just blindly following like a clear metric like money and just hoping by happenstance that will lead you being happy.

01:04:07 Speaker_02
The other thing I want to point about this example though is, okay, Zach started one job. Didn't work out, he switched. Is that a failure? No, it's very common.

01:04:19 Speaker_02
Figuring out the components of your ideal lifestyle is difficult, and it evolves with experience. So he had a hypothesis, I think, built on autonomy and financial security.

01:04:33 Speaker_02
He had a hypothesis of a lifestyle vision that he thought would be ideal for him, Zach pursued a job that matched that hypothesis, and then learned through real-life experience, oh, there's these other things I care about.

01:04:48 Speaker_02
I didn't realize them until I had them not be present in my life. I didn't realize, like, autonomy without X, Y, and Z wasn't so good, the money thing I don't care so much about.

01:04:58 Speaker_02
Through life experience, he updated his priors, his vision of the ideal lifestyle evolved, and he said, great. Let me now leverage my career capital and make a shift that's going to get me closer to that lifestyle.

01:05:09 Speaker_02
Now, in this case, the career capital he leveraged was literal capital. He was making good money, so he saved up enough to buy him time to make a switch.

01:05:20 Speaker_02
He was early enough in his career that sort of skills based career capital was less useful or less important because he was still pretty early stage career.

01:05:27 Speaker_02
And then he used that money to buy him some time to find a job that focused on other things he had discovered are important, and now he's much happier. That's lifestyle-centered career planning in action. It evolves. It's tactical. It's not sexy.

01:05:42 Speaker_02
It's not Brandon Sanderson's Sex Dungeon sexy. But it's what, over time, is going to make your life more fulfilling. You know, I've worn my VBLCCP hat a few times now.

01:05:55 Speaker_04
I've been wearing my Deep Life hat regularly.

01:05:58 Speaker_02
No one has, no one has asked me yet or noticed what VBLCCP means. I haven't got a reaction to it yet, but I'm still thinking we'll find our first. Do you have any questions about Deep Life or people just assume it's a brand? No, no questions yet. Yeah.

01:06:13 Speaker_02
I'll see. I'm going to keep wearing mine until I find a true believer, but I haven't found them yet. All right, we got a cool final segment coming up, a tech corner segment, but first let's hear briefly about another sponsor. You know what's not fair?

01:06:29 Speaker_02
The fact that Netflix hides thousands of shows and movies from you based on your location and then has the nerve to just keep increasing their prices.

01:06:38 Speaker_02
Now you could just cancel your subscription in protest or you could be smart about it and make sure you get your full money's worth like I do by using ExpressVPN. So we talk a lot about VPNs on the show. I'm very clear you should use a VPN.

01:06:55 Speaker_02
The way it works very briefly is that instead of just directly accessing a website or a service, with a VPN you instead connect to a VPN server.

01:07:04 Speaker_02
You tell that server with an encrypted message the site and service you actually want to use, that server talks to it on your behalf, encrypts the response and sends it back.

01:07:13 Speaker_02
So that means anyone monitoring your internet usage only learns that you're talking to a VPN server. They don't learn what site you're talking to. They don't learn what service you're talking to.

01:07:24 Speaker_02
One of the advantages of doing this, beyond just the obvious privacy advantages, the hacking advantages, the security advantages, is if you connect to a VPN server in a different location, and that server talks to Netflix on your behalf, Netflix thinks you're in that location.

01:07:40 Speaker_02
So ExpressVPN has servers all around the world. So you can select a server in like whatever geographic zone you care about and then you'll get that zone's Netflix content or whatever streaming service you're using when you use that app.

01:07:53 Speaker_02
So that's like an extra bonus thing you can get, a benefit of using a VPN on top of all the other ones. The reason why I like ExpressVPN is that it's easy. You fire up the app, right? You can change your location of the server with one click.

01:08:08 Speaker_02
When it's on,

01:08:10 Speaker_02
which is easy to use click to turn on issues all your your websites and apps like normal and all this happens transparently in the back top background works on phones laptops tablets even smart tvs and more it's super fast got high bandwidth their servers all around the world so like there's probably one nearby to get the fastest speed you can stream in hd was your buffering through it so it's got great sort of best-in-class speed uh... it's rated number one by top tech reviewers like seen it

01:08:37 Speaker_02
and The Verge. That's why, of the VPNs that are out there, I recommend ExpressVPN. Right now you can take advantage of ExpressVPN's Black Friday Cyber Monday offer to get the absolute best VPN deal you'll find all year.

01:08:53 Speaker_02
Use my special link, expressvpn.com slash deep, and you'll get four extra months with the 12-month plan, or six extra months with the 24-month plan, totally free.

01:09:06 Speaker_02
That's expressvpn.com slash deep to get an extra four or even six months of ExpressVPN for free. I also want to talk about our friends at Shopify.

01:09:21 Speaker_02
When you think about businesses whose sales are rocketing like Feastables by Mr. Beast or Thrive Cosmetics or Silicon Valley's Weekend Uniform supplier, Cotopaxi,

01:09:33 Speaker_02
You think about an innovative product, or a progressive brand, or button-downed marketing, but an often overlooked secret is how these brands actually do their selling. The experience of buying from these brands online.

01:09:51 Speaker_02
These brands, along with millions of others, use Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify It's home of the number one checkout on the planet, and the not-so-secret secret, which is shop pay, that boosts conversions up to 50%.

01:10:10 Speaker_02
This means that way less carts go abandoned and way more sales get done.

01:10:17 Speaker_02
So if you're growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify.

01:10:32 Speaker_02
Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that Feastables or Thrive or Codapaxi use when you use Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash deep, but type that in all lowercase.

01:10:48 Speaker_02
Go to Shopify.com slash deep, all lowercase to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash deep. All right, Jesse, go to our final segment.

01:11:01 Speaker_02
All right, for our final segment today, we want to do a triumphant return to my tech corner segment, where we get into a technical topic that is relevant to the type of things we talk about today.

01:11:15 Speaker_02
So I put on my computer science hat a little bit to help give us some more insight on topics relevant to living a deep life in a distracted world. All right, in today's tech corner, I want to talk about how do recommendation algorithms work. Why?

01:11:29 Speaker_02
Because in part, this is really relevant to the ongoing discussion about social media and social media regulation.

01:11:36 Speaker_02
So if we look at some of the new child safety legislation like COSA or COPA 2.0 or California's big law, we see that one of the things that they are pushing for is that when kids are using social media, that we have to be careful about what it does recommend or not recommend.

01:11:56 Speaker_02
Right. So you sort of see these arguments. Okay. We're not talking about censoring information that it can exist on social media, but we want to be careful about what we recommend or don't recommend.

01:12:07 Speaker_02
We also see this in discussions about things like Twitter or Twitter alternatives like threads or blue sky, or there's often this notion of The recommendation algorithm can be tuned up or tuned down.

01:12:19 Speaker_02
We saw this a lot with the discussions around threads when it was released that they were tuning down. They claim the political nature of content and tuning up recommendations for others.

01:12:28 Speaker_02
This idea that there is a quote unquote algorithm that is in charge of showing us stuff. And this algorithm is really important.

01:12:37 Speaker_02
and we can change this algorithm to change the experience or maybe strip it out altogether and have an experience without it. It is at the core of many discussions around social media and its harm.

01:12:46 Speaker_02
So I thought we would talk about, well, how do these algorithms actually work? So what I'm going to do here is greatly simplify the idea of how a sort of machine learning based optimization recommendation algorithm actually works.

01:13:01 Speaker_02
I want to start by saying there is a spectrum on which these algorithms exist. So if we look in the social media ecosystem, on one end of the spectrum will be something like Twitter. which actually is relatively non-algorithmic.

01:13:15 Speaker_02
The way curation decisions are made on Twitter, a lot of it is actually cybernetic, which means it's based on individual humans' decisions to retweet or not.

01:13:25 Speaker_02
And when those are combined with the network structure of Twitter, which has power law dynamics, it's really good at sort of selecting for certain content to have explosive growth and start trending. But it's largely non-algorithmic.

01:13:37 Speaker_02
It's actually just the aggregate of a lot of human decisions. On the other end of the spectrum is TikTok. which is essentially entirely algorithmic. It doesn't care who you follow or don't follow or what other people like.

01:13:50 Speaker_02
It just uses an algorithm to select what to show you next, then what to show you next and what to show you next.

01:13:57 Speaker_02
So we're going to be leaning more towards that TikTok side where really is like a computer is deciding, not other humans, what it is you should see. I'm going to give you a highly simplified way of thinking about this.

01:14:06 Speaker_02
Then we can draw some conclusions from it afterwards. All right, so let's pretend for the sake of this example that we're building an algorithm to recommend TikTok videos. And I am gonna do a lot of drawing here, God help us.

01:14:21 Speaker_02
So if you're listening instead of watching, you might want to actually, uh, load up the YouTube version of this. This is what are we Jesse? This is episode three 27. Is that right? Yep. All right.

01:14:31 Speaker_02
So you just go to, uh, what the deep life.com slash listen, look for episode three 27. You'll see the video there. It usually comes up within the same day or the day after the episode lands. Okay.

01:14:44 Speaker_02
So we're tick tock and we want to recommend videos to a user. So we need ways, first of all, of describing the videos we have in our collection. And we want to describe them in a way computers can understand, so we want to use numbers.

01:15:01 Speaker_02
So let's start really simple. Let's say we're going to assign a single number to every video that we're going to use to help describe it. All right. Ooh. Hold on a second. All right, let me try this again. There we go. All right, so now I can draw.

01:15:22 Speaker_02
All right, so we're going to have videos. We're going to describe each videos with a single number. Let's say, you know, this number, for example, here is going to describe for each video the number of cats in that video.

01:15:39 Speaker_02
And so we have this, a single number on which we can categorize videos. I drew a line here and we can imagine this as this is our space in which videos can fall.

01:15:50 Speaker_02
and I'm sort of adding numbers to this line, and in this very simple example, kind of numbered from, you know, zero up to eight, we could use yellow dots in this example to be different videos, and we can just sort of place them on this line, depending on how many cats they have in them.

01:16:08 Speaker_02
So there's a couple videos with a lot of cats, and some five, a couple over here, and I don't know, we have fractional numbers of cats, whatever. So we're describing all these videos by a single number. Okay.

01:16:23 Speaker_02
In this simple example, now let's let a user come along. And what we do is we want to look at the videos that you are looking at. And let's say we want to categorize them simply as a video you like or don't like.

01:16:40 Speaker_02
So in like the Facebook days, there'd be an actual like button. The way we think TikTok works is that it actually looks at how long you watch a video. So if you quickly swipe to the next video, you don't like it.

01:16:50 Speaker_02
If you watch it long enough, then we can consider that you do like it. So we're gonna start showing you videos and we are going to start, let's say, let's just keep track of the videos you like. So the videos that you actually watch for a little while.

01:17:05 Speaker_02
And I'm going to plot those on this same one-dimensional line here with a purple dot.

01:17:11 Speaker_02
And so maybe you like a couple videos with five cats, you like one with zero cats, six cats, there's a three cat one, another six cat, maybe one eight, maybe another couple more zero ones.

01:17:25 Speaker_02
So I'm just keeping track of, okay, these videos you liked, where did they fall in this range of number of cats?

01:17:34 Speaker_02
Now after we've done this for a while, what I can do, and this is how these sort of basic algorithms work in a very simplistic way, I can say, okay, where on average

01:17:45 Speaker_02
Where on average are these videos you like falling on this single value I care about? And there's different ways to do this. You can think about what we're trying to do here is basically find the average point.

01:17:58 Speaker_02
Think about this as like we're trying to find a point that has like the best overall distance to all of your points. It's interesting. My controller is weird.

01:18:10 Speaker_02
In reality, the way this is typically done is actually trying to minimize the average square of the distances. Don't worry about that here. What I'm trying to do here is sort of find a point on here that's sort of in the middle. It's the average.

01:18:23 Speaker_02
It's minimizing distance to all of your likes. So you have a bunch of zeros you like here, but you have like a bunch of fives, sixes, and eights. So, you know, maybe your average is like right where that X is. That's kind of the center point

01:18:36 Speaker_02
of where the videos you like fall.

01:18:40 Speaker_02
So now when it comes time for me as TikTok to show you another video, what I can do to be smarter is say, great, I'm gonna randomly select you a video from all the videos that exist, but I'm going to weight the probability that I select a given video depending on how close it is to this point that we said was kind of at the center of your preferences.

01:19:03 Speaker_02
So in here, right, this point is like somewhere between four and five cats is kind of like the center of your preferences when we measure videos by cats.

01:19:11 Speaker_02
So, you know, it's possible that I could select you a video out here, but I'm much more likely to select the videos around here.

01:19:17 Speaker_02
So you're gonna get a lot of videos with like four or five cats and sometimes some videos with less cats and sometimes some videos with more, but pretty soon you're gonna be like, wow, this is eerie.

01:19:26 Speaker_02
TikTok has really figured out that there's kind of, I like videos that have, you know, like a couple armfuls of cats in them. Again, this is simplified, but it roughly gets to how these type of things work. All right, so this is a single number.

01:19:42 Speaker_02
Of course, these videos are going to have more dimensions on which we're going to want to measure them, but that's okay because the same thing works even as we go to more dimensions. So maybe we say, okay, there's two numbers. Let me select this here.

01:19:59 Speaker_02
Maybe there's two numbers by which we want to describe all of our videos. So one number is the number of cats, and then another number is like the number of skeletons.

01:20:12 Speaker_02
So we can just draw this, if you're looking at the screen here, as just like another axis. Like now we're in a two-dimensional space. And again, we can do the same thing. All the videos fall somewhere. Every video has a spot somewhere in here.

01:20:25 Speaker_02
You know, a video with seven cats and one, two, three skeletons would show up right here in this space. A video with like zero cats and four skeletons might be over here. And again, we see, we plot every time you like

01:20:40 Speaker_02
a video, we kind of plot it in this two-dimensional space, and we can do the exact same thing we did before, where we find, like, roughly speaking, where the center is by some sort of center metric.

01:20:51 Speaker_02
Okay, roughly speaking, this is the center of all the videos you've liked. And so now when we randomly select videos, they're going to be kind of roughly in this range.

01:20:58 Speaker_02
Like, you're going to see a lot of stuff with a good number of cats and a fair number of skeletons. And, like, you're very rarely going to see something with, like, a bunch of cats and a bunch of skeletons or no cats and, you know, whatever, right?

01:21:10 Speaker_02
We could do this with three numbers. Now we would be in three-dimensional space, and you could imagine there's regions where you have lots of videos you like in that three-dimensional space.

01:21:18 Speaker_02
And when we randomly select videos, we select them near there. We can expend the number of numbers we use to describe these videos. They can get much larger.

01:21:26 Speaker_02
And something like TikTok is gonna have probably thousands of different numbers, each describing different parts of these videos.

01:21:34 Speaker_02
Now we can't draw this, once we get past three numbers, we can't really draw these in a way that makes sense to us, but the same mathematics works.

01:21:44 Speaker_02
The videos are described by a ton of numbers, we keep track of the videos you like, and then we can select for videos that are in some sense close to the clusters of videos that you like. Alright, two complications here.

01:22:00 Speaker_02
What if you like multiple, there's, there's a, if we look in this region where you have a bunch of clustered videos, you like, what if there's like multiple types of videos you like, this just shows up as like multiple clusters.

01:22:14 Speaker_02
kind of like multiple clusters in this multi-dimensional space of videos that you like. We have ways of finding a bunch of different center points. We do things like k-means averaging.

01:22:22 Speaker_02
Okay, there's a bunch of different center points that each correspond to like a type of video that you like. And so now when we randomly select a video to show you, we're giving extra probabilities to anything near one of these clusters.

01:22:34 Speaker_02
And the bigger the cluster, the more likely we are to show you a video from there. The other complication, well, how do we know if you like something that you've never seen before?

01:22:44 Speaker_02
TikTok answers this by alternating between just purely showing you something weighted towards the things you like versus showing you something new.

01:22:53 Speaker_02
So it will opportunistically show you new things just to see, give you a chance to show a preference for things you've never seen before.

01:23:01 Speaker_02
That's why when you use TikTok at first, it kind of drifts over time until you finally stabilize into the clusters you like. It'll show you a lot more random stuff at first to try to see what you like.

01:23:12 Speaker_02
So, like, very roughly speaking, something like this is going on. Alright, so here's some conclusions about this. These algorithms are automatic and agnostic to content details. Right?

01:23:24 Speaker_02
It's not computer code where you can come in and it has, like, in there, political content, unsafe for kids content.

01:23:35 Speaker_02
sports content, and you can turn a knob, let's turn down politics and turn up sports content, or turn down controversial and turn up non-controversial. It's agnostic to that.

01:23:46 Speaker_02
It has all these numbers, most of which, by the way, are figured out using embedding tools that are machine learning tools so that you don't know what they are in advance, right? You're not choosing what these numbers are.

01:23:56 Speaker_02
The software just figuring out what numbers matter. And it's just automatically plotting your videos that you like or don't like and finding these sort of center spaces in the space and randomly selecting.

01:24:06 Speaker_02
The algorithm has no idea what these spaces are from a content point of view. It's agnostic to that. It's selecting vectors that are weighted to be near other vectors that you've expressed preferences for. So it can be remarkably effective.

01:24:20 Speaker_02
It's why when you purify these algorithms like TikTok does, it seems eerie. Like how did TikTok figure out? that, you know, I like videos about, you know, bears working on crafts.

01:24:32 Speaker_02
But this type of exploration of the space and weighted selection will pretty quickly cluster these things together, and the intersection clusters will have a lot of weight. It will just automatically find these things.

01:24:43 Speaker_02
It seems very eerie, but it's actually quite simplistic mathematically, what's happening underneath. But because it's automatic, they're not nearly as controllable as we think.

01:24:55 Speaker_02
Controlling these type of recommendation algorithms is difficult because of their automatic contact agnostic nature. What we end up needing to do is things like human in the loop, dead zone definitions.

01:25:10 Speaker_02
So we show a lot of content to real people and we say, here's the type of stuff we're worried about. And when they see the stuff that to their human intuition, matches things we're worried about, they kind of hit a button.

01:25:21 Speaker_02
Okay, that's bad, that's bad, that's bad. And they create what you can think of as a like dislike plots in this space. And then you can find the sort of centers of these spaces of stuff that people or testers said was bad.

01:25:33 Speaker_02
And you can reduce weight for videos near those. It could give you sort of negative probability weight if you're near one of those zones, right?

01:25:42 Speaker_02
But this is again, this kind of indirect, it's not just you coming in saying, don't do this type of content. You have to have humans calling stuff bad and that translates into this inscrutable multidimensional space and it sort of affects the weight.

01:25:55 Speaker_02
So it's kind of an imperfect way of trying to tame this algorithm. Stuff that the human testers haven't seen or clicked on is going to be treated like anything else. And so these algorithms, we just, we have to keep this in mind.

01:26:10 Speaker_02
Recommendation algorithms are automatic and mathematical and not easily tameable in a sort of human understandable way. So when thinking about reforms of these technologies, do not think about like a newspaper editor who's making decisions.

01:26:24 Speaker_02
You could just say, hey, do less of this. It's much more automatic than that. It can give you like eerily successful results in terms of honing in on your interest.

01:26:36 Speaker_02
But it's also very hard to keep an algorithm like that successful and somehow have it avoid lots of stuff, because it doesn't know what stuff means. Humans have to get in there, and it's messy at best. So anyways, I hear a lot about algorithms.

01:26:50 Speaker_02
They're often discussed to be these highly tunable, understandable things. They're simple algorithmically, but complicated in their effect and complicated to tame. So there you go, Jesse. We did philosophy and computer science. Pretty good.

01:27:04 Speaker_02
In the same episode. We just kind of got our nerd bonafides up here. Probably also lost half our audience. You got a professor, guys. You have a professor podcasting. Sometimes you're gonna get some of that. Anyway, so thank you all for listening.

01:27:16 Speaker_02
We'll be back next week with another episode. It'll be a little bit less heady next week. We'll see what the feedback is. But until then, as always, stay deep.

01:27:26 Speaker_01
Hi, it's Cal here. One more thing before you go.

01:27:30 Speaker_02
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01:27:47 Speaker_02
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01:27:55 Speaker_02
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