Emotions 2.0: The Logic of Rage AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Hidden Brain

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Emotions 2.0: The Logic of Rage) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Go to PodExtra AI's podcast page (Hidden Brain) to view the AI-processed content of all episodes of this podcast.

View full AI transcripts and summaries of all podcast episodes on the blog: Hidden Brain

Episode: Emotions 2.0: The Logic of Rage

Author: Hidden Brain, Shankar Vedantam
Duration: 00:47:22

Episode Shownotes

Neuroscientist Doug Fields was on a trip to Europe when a pickpocket stole his wallet. Doug, normally mild-mannered, became enraged — and his fury turned him into a stranger to himself. This week, we revisit a favorite 2020 episode about the secret logic of irrational anger.This is the final episode

in our Emotions 2.0 series. If you missed any of the episodes in the series, you can find them here in this podcast feed, or at hiddenbrain.org. And if there's someone in your life who you think would enjoy this series, please tell them about it. Thanks for listening!

Summary

In this episode of Hidden Brain, hosted by Shankar Vedantam, we explore the complexities of anger through personal stories of individuals who encountered sudden rage. Narratives from Saru Najarian, Paula Reed, and Jess Cavender illustrate how moments of provocation can unleash overwhelming emotions, revealing the intricate relationship between anger and self-preservation. Neuroscientist Doug Fields shares his own experience of rage after being pickpocketed in Europe, emphasizing the irrational nature of anger and its role as a survival mechanism. The episode discusses both the destructive and constructive aspects of anger, highlighting its capacity to galvanize communal movements while also posing risks for interpersonal relationships and social order.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Emotions 2.0: The Logic of Rage) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_01
This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. When Saru Najarian was about 10, his pastime was collecting baseball and basketball cards. These were hard to come by in Cyprus, where he grew up.

00:00:12 Speaker_01
So when Saru's cousin pestered him to share his cards with her, he always said no, but she didn't give up. As she pestered and begged and pleaded.

00:00:21 Speaker_00
It came to a boiling point where I got so angry that everything blacked out. and I slapped her really hard.

00:00:33 Speaker_01
Saru's arm seemed to act of its own volition.

00:00:37 Speaker_00
A second later, I came back into the reality and I saw her crying and had no idea what I had done.

00:00:48 Speaker_01
Paula Reed experienced something similar at the same age. She was a budding environmentalist with a peace ecology flag hanging on her bedroom wall. One afternoon, she heard the cracking of trees and a low rumble.

00:01:02 Speaker_01
She realized that her neighbor was knocking down trees to build himself a shorter driveway. He was using a bulldozer.

00:01:11 Speaker_06
This neighbor came up the road in the bulldozer and was pushing over trees and something in my head just snapped.

00:01:26 Speaker_01
Paula's dad had bought a machete in his travels. Without thinking, Paula seized the weapon. Its blade was about as long as her arm. In shorts and bare feet, she climbed up on the bulldozer and swung the blade. Metal struck metal.

00:01:49 Speaker_01
As the bulldozer stopped and retreated, Paula chased after it, cutting ribbons in the air with a machete.

00:01:55 Speaker_06
I have no idea where that came from, but I was in a complete wild red rage.

00:02:09 Speaker_01
This week on the show, wild red rage. We continue our Emotions 2.0 series with a favorite episode about the moments when we suddenly snap. Such rage can harm others. It can harm us. But it turns out, we would be worse off without it.

00:02:31 Speaker_01
The Deep Logic of Irrational Rage, this week on Hidden Brain.

00:02:56 Speaker_07
This is the story of a woman who snapped.

00:02:59 Speaker_05
I would say that I'm a gentle person. And that's me putting it optimistically.

00:03:06 Speaker_01
Jess Cavender always thought of herself as a timid person. Timid to the point of pushover.

00:03:13 Speaker_05
My brother wasn't shy about telling me that I was a doormat for most of my life. And I didn't want to see myself as a doormat, but I also didn't have evidence to the contrary.

00:03:24 Speaker_01
In elementary school, for example, Jess saved up years of pocket money and birthday cash, storing her savings in a music box. Her dream? A much-coveted trampoline. Finally, one day, she had enough money. She and her dad drove to Sam's Club.

00:03:44 Speaker_05
I bought this trampoline and I was so excited.

00:03:46 Speaker_01
Until her trampoline was taken over by intruders.

00:03:51 Speaker_05
My two siblings, my older brother and younger sister, would bounce on the trampoline as well, and sometimes I couldn't get it to myself the way I'd like it.

00:04:00 Speaker_01
Jess's siblings didn't just hog the trampoline. They treated her as if she were an unwelcome guest. Jess tried to get her dad to step in. Instead of helping, he offered her some advice.

00:04:13 Speaker_05
My dad suggested to me that I, you know, charge them to use the trampoline, since it was my trampoline and I had done all the work to save for it, that I should charge them a fee to use it.

00:04:26 Speaker_01
He might as well have suggested she punch someone in the face. Her siblings didn't even bother arguing with her. They just ignored her.

00:04:34 Speaker_05
I don't know how I would have ever enforced charging 25 cents for my siblings to use it. They certainly would just be like, no, walk past me and get on the trampoline.

00:04:46 Speaker_01
Jess did not experience the slights with fury. She accepted them with resignation. Over the years, there were other moments like this, moments that would have sparked anger in some people. But Jess usually kept her cool.

00:05:01 Speaker_01
until one night, years later, when she didn't. She was in graduate school, living with two roommates in off-campus housing.

00:05:13 Speaker_05
It has all of the trimmings of being sort of college living, where you're paying for a lot and not getting very much, and people are packed in.

00:05:25 Speaker_01
Late one night, Jess was jolted awake by a sound.

00:05:29 Speaker_05
I hear heavy footfalls going down the stairs.

00:05:33 Speaker_01
Jess immediately thought she knew what had happened. Her roommate Kim had torn her Achilles tendon and was wearing a boot. Jess figured that Kim had fallen on the stairs. She leaped out of bed, threw on her robe, and opened her bedroom door.

00:05:49 Speaker_01
Her other roommate, Shelby, opened her door at the same time. She'd also heard the noise.

00:05:55 Speaker_05
She's looking at me, and I'm looking at her, and Kim's not at the bottom of the stairs, so we both just run down the stairs to see what had happened.

00:06:04 Speaker_05
Well, the both of us arrive at the bottom of the stairs, and a very large man with my kitchen rag held over his face comes wheeling out of the kitchen with a gun pointed at us.

00:06:17 Speaker_01
The first thing Jess took in about the man was his size. He was at least six foot five. He was about a head taller than she was.

00:06:26 Speaker_05
All I could see was his eyes. The glare of his eyes were yellow. And aside from that, really, I was staring at the barrel of the gun.

00:06:37 Speaker_01
The man yelled, where's the money? Get the money. Go upstairs. Standing there in her robe with a gun pointed at her head, Jess did not snap. Instead, her mind became cool and analytical. What could she do to get out of the situation?

00:06:57 Speaker_01
Out of the corner of her eye, she noticed a movement. Another man had emerged from a side room.

00:07:04 Speaker_05
And I know that they want something valuable. And I have nothing. I'm aware that I have no cash. I have no TV screens.

00:07:15 Speaker_01
The man with a gun motioned for the two women to go up the stairs, presumably to fetch their wallets. Shelby, normally a ball of energy, had gone still.

00:07:26 Speaker_05
I discovered that she's frozen. She isn't blinking. She's not looking at me. She's not moving. So I put my hand on her back and I say, everything's going to be OK. We're going upstairs. Just give them what they want.

00:07:42 Speaker_01
As Jess and Shelby climbed the stairs, the robbers came up behind them.

00:07:48 Speaker_05
one of the guys puts his hand on my butt to, like, push me. And that's when it occurred to me that something sexually violent might happen.

00:08:01 Speaker_01
Still, Jess felt no rage. The second robber took Shelby into her room. The first man, the one with the gun, followed Jess into her bedroom.

00:08:12 Speaker_05
And he's yelling, get on the bed. And that's when the sort of thought, there's no way in hell that I will get on this bed, not for anything. It's a second story building. I probably would have jumped out of the window before I actually got on the bed.

00:08:27 Speaker_01
Jess kept thinking, what could she give the man to make him leave?

00:08:32 Speaker_05
And I'm looking around my room, and I'm looking for something of value. I have stacks of books. I have dance clothes. I have all sorts of things that could not possibly, in my mind, register giving to him.

00:08:48 Speaker_05
I'm just looking around for something valuable to give to him so that he will leave. And I look down, and I see my camera.

00:08:58 Speaker_01
The camera she used for work

00:09:01 Speaker_05
Now, my camera is the main way that I provide for myself, and that's how I was making enough money to really to feed myself. And so that represented to me my livelihood, my survival.

00:09:15 Speaker_05
I had a split-second emotional response to it, thinking, no, he doesn't get that. And that's when everything changed.

00:09:26 Speaker_01
Jess did not snap when two men invaded her home. She didn't snap when one of them touched her. She didn't snap when she was forced at gunpoint into her bedroom and told to get on the bed. But when she realized the robber might take her camera,

00:09:43 Speaker_05
That's when I realized this person has no right to come in here and to demand my things, or to even be in my space. That was really the first time that I had a strong response to this person violating me.

00:09:58 Speaker_05
I looked at the gun, just squarely faced him in a way that I don't think I've ever done to anyone, and said, get out. Get out of my house. You do not belong here.

00:10:15 Speaker_01
Jess could hear the man's accomplice in the other room shouting, shoot her, shoot her. Jess spotted her cell phone. She grabbed it. The robber saw what she was doing.

00:10:27 Speaker_05
And as I got my hand on it, he jumped on top of me and we're rolling on the floor fighting each other.

00:10:32 Speaker_05
He's using one hand to try and pry the cell phone out, and I'm using the same hand that's on the cell phone to dig my fingernails into his skin, and then the other hand to try and pry the gun out of his hand.

00:10:46 Speaker_01
Something primal stirred inside Jess. She was suddenly consumed by blinding rage.

00:10:54 Speaker_05
His chest is on my back, his arms are around my arms. He's completely sort of crouched over and around me as we're falling on our sides and I'm kicking and scratching.

00:11:08 Speaker_01
The one thought flooding her mind? Not survival.

00:11:11 Speaker_05
Don't let him win. Somehow that mattered. I was using every ounce of my physical strength and not caring that I was inflicting pain. And actually being like, that's fine. That's the point. You have to get this phone back out of his hand.

00:11:29 Speaker_05
I don't know why I was more focused on the phone than the gun, but I was.

00:11:33 Speaker_01
The second robber barged into the bedroom. There were now two of them in the room. But she had no thought for risk or danger. Something new had taken over.

00:11:45 Speaker_05
I just started screaming. A full-on, high-pitched, blood-curling screech of a scream. And apparently my scream was so loud that I woke up one neighbor who was wearing headphones and then the other neighbor who was asleep on the other side.

00:12:06 Speaker_01
The men were so startled by the screams that they took off. One grabbed Jess's laptop on his way out. Jess's scream woke up her other roommate. Unbelievably, Kim had slept through the whole thing.

00:12:21 Speaker_05
And she opened the door and says, you know, what's wrong? I was like, call the police.

00:12:28 Speaker_01
In that moment, Jess Cavender, who had lived her life as a timid person, had no sense that she had acted out of character.

00:12:38 Speaker_05
All that unfolded was in no way, shape, or form unnatural or surprising to me in the moment. It was what needed to happen.

00:12:47 Speaker_05
I wasn't surprised at myself until but later when I was like, I cannot for the life of me believe that I looked at a guy who's holding a gun at my head and decided that I was going to yell at him.

00:13:00 Speaker_01
Or fight.

00:13:01 Speaker_05
Yeah, or fight.

00:13:10 Speaker_01
Jess's story reveals a strange truth about our capacity for fury. It often arrives without warning. It seems to have a mind of its own. We can ignore serious provocations for years, and then, boom, we snap.

00:13:27 Speaker_01
Only later do we look back at our actions in wonder. When we come back, understanding the triggers that can push even the most mild-mannered among us to see red. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

00:13:58 Speaker_07
This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

00:14:01 Speaker_01
A defining quality of wild red rage is that it often comes out of nowhere. It takes over our minds and deprives us of reason and logic.

00:14:12 Speaker_01
When Jess Cavender lost it and literally fought a robber who had a gun pointed at her head, she took a very serious risk. She and her roommates could have ended up dead. In retrospect, you could say it was foolhardy and irrational.

00:14:29 Speaker_01
All this presents a mystery. It's taken millions of years of evolution to produce the human brain. It has an exquisite capacity for reason and logic. Why would natural selection install a circuit breaker to undermine our capacity for logical thinking?

00:14:48 Speaker_01
Doug Fields has long puzzled over this question. His interest in rage grows out of his fascination with the brain, but it's also based on an unforgettable personal experience.

00:14:59 Speaker_01
The story he told me has the ring of a Hollywood thriller, but with a catch. Doug, our leading man, is not a muscle-bound hero. He's a neuroscientist, and not just any neuroscientist, but a walking stereotype of a neuroscientist.

00:15:18 Speaker_01
Here's his daughter, Kelly Fields.

00:15:20 Speaker_04
We'd be watching a movie together, and there's some sort of car accident or some big scene going on. And he'll just chime in and be like, wow, you can't see the shadow behind that plant in the corner anymore.

00:15:36 Speaker_04
Did you notice that they changed the lighting for no reason, even though it's the same scene? And I'd be like, no, actually, I was watching the car accident. So yeah, just a very typical nerd.

00:15:51 Speaker_01
Doug is 5 foot 7 and weighs maybe 135 pounds.

00:15:56 Speaker_04
Glasses, thin hair.

00:16:01 Speaker_02
Don't think of Sean Connery or, you know, Matt Damon. You've got to think of Woody Allen here.

00:16:07 Speaker_01
In 2007, Doug was scheduled to go to Barcelona to present some research at a neuroscience conference. He decided to turn a work trip into a father-daughter vacation and took Kelly with him. She was 17, he was 57. Their first stop was Paris.

00:16:27 Speaker_01
Waiting in line at the Eiffel Tower, Kelly got a new glimpse into how her dad's mind worked.

00:16:34 Speaker_04
A couple came up to us and was speaking perfect English with American accents, and they were very nice. And I just noticed they were standing too close to us. I kept glancing behind us, sort of like, why are you standing so close?

00:16:46 Speaker_04
And I noticed this woman's hand near his pants. And then I look again, and I notice his pocket is unzipped. And I just sort of whispered to my dad, I think they're trying to rob you.

00:16:59 Speaker_01
Doug was completely unfazed.

00:17:02 Speaker_04
My dad informed me that that was a decoy wallet.

00:17:05 Speaker_01
Your dad had a decoy wallet?

00:17:08 Speaker_04
You are just as surprised as I was. I was like, what? He had this special wallet that he would keep in his front pocket. It was special because the way it was cut to fit into his front pocket. And that was his wallet.

00:17:22 Speaker_04
Sorry, I'm blowing all your covers, dad. And then he had a fake wallet in his back pocket with not a lot of money in it and a few fake credit cards.

00:17:32 Speaker_01
Doug came up with this strategy many vacations ago.

00:17:36 Speaker_02
You know, when you travel, it's a wise idea not to have all your money and credit cards in one place. You know, you can get robbed or mugged. And so the idea is, you know, if it's a pickpocket and they get a wallet that's useless, that doesn't matter.

00:17:48 Speaker_02
But if you're mugged, you can hand them the wallet or throw it on the ground and run. So that's why I do that.

00:17:56 Speaker_01
For anyone keeping score, that's neuroscientist one, pickpockets zero. After visiting the Eiffel Tower, father and daughter went back to their hotel and packed their bags. The next day, they took the metro to the airport.

00:18:16 Speaker_01
This is when Doug broke one of his cardinal rules.

00:18:20 Speaker_02
I violated my rule of having money in multiple places because TSA makes that difficult when you have to go through inspections. So I figured we're just going to take the ride to the airport. So I had everything in my wallet.

00:18:36 Speaker_01
Everything in one wallet.

00:18:39 Speaker_02
We got on the metro, lots of people. Then we came to a stop, and everybody on the metro train left. Except one lady who looked very sympathetic at us, and I felt that my wallet was gone.

00:18:53 Speaker_01
They had lost their money and credit cards. That's neuroscientist one, pickpockets one. Doug and Kelly still had their passports, so they were able to get on their flight to Barcelona, where Doug's conference was being held.

00:19:09 Speaker_02
If you have your wallet stolen in Europe, how do you check into a hotel? What are you going to do? What ultimately happened is I managed to reach my brother in the United States, and he arranged to wire us cash.

00:19:24 Speaker_02
My brother had picked this place for us to get money kind of at random on the internet.

00:19:30 Speaker_01
Doug and Kelly got in a cab and gave the driver the address of the bank where they were to pick up the money. Except, it wasn't a bank.

00:19:40 Speaker_02
So we got in a cab, took us way out of the Barcelona tourist area to the most seedy neighborhood you've ever seen.

00:19:47 Speaker_01
As vacant shops and trash-strewn streets replaced sprawling parks and cafes, father and daughter got more and more anxious.

00:19:57 Speaker_02
Our adrenaline is, like, coming out our ears already, because we've just been pickpocketed and had all this stress. And we end up in a seedy part of town at an internet cafe.

00:20:09 Speaker_04
And it was just a small, dingy building full of really big men, basically.

00:20:16 Speaker_01
The burly man was staring at a TV. When Doug and Kelly entered, the men silently turned to watch. Doug went up to the cashier.

00:20:27 Speaker_02
gave him this receipt. He reaches in his pocket, pulls out this wad of money and starts peeling off, you know, a thousand dollars or something.

00:20:36 Speaker_04
And we were just standing there sort of looking at them like, are you contacting your friends to come and rob us?

00:20:41 Speaker_02
Kelly and I just know we're going to get robbed again. It was terrible. They didn't get robbed. The cab stayed there. We got in the cab and then we went back.

00:20:54 Speaker_01
The next morning, they resolved to put the unpleasantness of the previous days behind them. Doug had to give a talk at the conference that afternoon. In the morning, he and Kelly decided to visit a famous Barcelona cathedral.

00:21:08 Speaker_01
Now, it would seem like too much bad luck to get robbed again, but...

00:21:13 Speaker_02
were coming up the steps of the metro station, and suddenly I felt this tug at my pant leg, and I slapped the zipper pocket above my knee, and my wallet was gone.

00:21:25 Speaker_01
This wasn't a decoy wallet. It was the real thing, with all the cash that Doug's brother had wired him from the United States. Something snapped inside the 57-year-old neuroscientist. He was done being used as a portable ATM by European thieves.

00:21:45 Speaker_02
I shot my arm back.

00:21:47 Speaker_01
The robber hadn't gotten far.

00:21:49 Speaker_02
He was right behind Doug. He started to turn, and I snagged him in the crook of my arm.

00:21:56 Speaker_01
He had the robber around the neck. Now what? Doug didn't have to ask himself the question. His arm seemed to know what to do.

00:22:07 Speaker_02
I flipped him over my hip to the ground on the pavement and jumped on his back and put him in a chokehold. And then this thought bubbles up to my cerebral cortex. What are you doing? If you're robbed, you should give him the money.

00:22:23 Speaker_02
But I was sort of just like a spectator in this whole thing.

00:22:28 Speaker_01
Kelly, who was a couple of paces in front of Doug, turned around to see something she never expected to see in all her life. Wild, red rage from her father.

00:22:41 Speaker_04
And I see my dad choking this random person. He has this young guy in a headlock. And I was just looking at him like, what is going on? Then I hear my dad yell, my wallet. And when he says my wallet, I knew instantly what had happened.

00:23:00 Speaker_04
Somebody had pickpocketed him again.

00:23:03 Speaker_02
So I'm on the ground with this guy, and he's in his 20s. I'm just thinking back to watching my kids wrestle. And I'm trying to do what they do. I'm thinking hip control. I got to keep this down, keep him pinned. And I yell, call the police.

00:23:15 Speaker_02
Call the police. I've got him. And there's no reply. And then, from my perspective on the ground, all I saw were men's feet circling around me. And I then realized they were all part of a gang.

00:23:31 Speaker_01
The thief somehow managed to fling Doug's wallet toward an accomplice. It was now Kelly's turn to do something crazy.

00:23:39 Speaker_02
The next thing I see is a woman's hand flying through the air, and I recognize it as Kelly.

00:23:44 Speaker_02
Kelly was captain of the Ultimate Frisbee Team at that time, and she's doing a full-on layout onto solid concrete to deflect the disc, you know, and taps the wallet into my outstretched right hand.

00:23:57 Speaker_04
And I sort of jump up to my feet and I'm looking around like, OK, now what? And I see these big guys and I watch, I follow the gaze of one of these guys. I follow his eyes as he looks down at the ground and I see that he sees my dad's BlackBerry.

00:24:14 Speaker_04
And as I'm locking eyes with him, I jumped on my dad's BlackBerry, just like a football player would like grab a football or something, which is a funny image to me because it was just a BlackBerry.

00:24:26 Speaker_04
So I'm like on the ground hugging this little blackberry and I'm like, Dad, I got your phone. And I'm yelling because there's now a circle of men around me and I can see through their feet there's a circle of men around my father as well.

00:24:45 Speaker_04
And he has his wallet and he knew the next move and that was to let the guy go.

00:24:51 Speaker_01
That's Neuroscientist 2, Pickpockets 1.

00:24:58 Speaker_02
When I let the bandit go that I had in the chokehold, he scooted away on his back, kind of like on his butt, sort of like a crab. And he pointed at me going, crazy man, crazy man.

00:25:10 Speaker_02
And now I'm staring eye to eye with like the ringleader and all these other guys. So what am I going to do now? I had so much adrenaline going, which I've never felt before.

00:25:22 Speaker_02
I was ready to throw him into his accomplices and knock him down the steps into the metro station. And there was no question whether I could do that or not.

00:25:33 Speaker_04
And then, yeah, really pretty well-dressed elderly man with a cane just sort of walks up really casually and said, yeah, he's no crazy, go. And they all fled, you know, like a

00:25:49 Speaker_04
bunch of birds leaving a telephone wire or something they were just like poof and I'm just sort of like trying to process it all like what just happened oh my dad must be a spy this is of course and he just like did some spy things when that guy stole his wallet he's not really a scientist at all.

00:26:05 Speaker_01
Doug and Kelly stumbled away from the scene their hearts were racing

00:26:13 Speaker_04
My dad says, you know, we have to get a knife. And I was like, what? OK, now I'm concerned. That's like a horrible idea on multiple levels. That's a really bad idea.

00:26:25 Speaker_04
You know, and I couldn't believe that my father, who I had only ever seen use knives for, like, cutting vegetables or firewood, was now suggesting, like, we need to go get a weapon.

00:26:36 Speaker_04
And I was sort of like, oh, OK, I need to step in in the decision-making process. That's insane. We're not getting a knife.

00:26:43 Speaker_01
Doug was sure that they were being tracked by members of the street gang. And it turns out, he was not being paranoid. He and Kelly really were being followed.

00:26:54 Speaker_02
And now it turned into a scene out of like a spy movie. We're running down back alleys. We're running through restaurants, going into shops, going in one door, out the back door.

00:27:08 Speaker_04
And so we

00:27:10 Speaker_04
go into a different shop and I bought this like skirt so we could try and change clothing which was really bizarre and it's funny that we thought that would help and we get out of the store and I remember seeing another person walking towards us on one side of the street and then a group of men walking towards us on the other side and my dad just goes, we need to cross the street.

00:27:34 Speaker_04
Ready, go. No conversation. And we just started booking it across this crowded road. And we run across the street. We realize these people are following us for sure. We see them now crossing the crosswalk to come to our side of the street again.

00:27:51 Speaker_04
And we're like, what do we do? And he goes, let's get a taxi. And we run into the street. And he hits the hood of a taxi driving by. And he's like, we need to get in.

00:28:03 Speaker_01
When they got out of the taxi, they still hadn't shaken the robbers. They jumped in another cab and asked the driver to get them the hell out of Barcelona.

00:28:13 Speaker_02
Then went to the next city. 170-year-old cab fare, I still remember.

00:28:27 Speaker_01
It was here, far outside of Barcelona, that Doug's heart rate started to slow. And as his normal, logical brain came back online, he couldn't believe what he had just done.

00:28:41 Speaker_04
He's like, I should have given them my wallet. That's crazy. Why did I do that? Why was I doing that? Like, never do that. If this ever happens to you again, you know, give me your wallet.

00:28:50 Speaker_01
Doug's behavior disturbed him as a father, but it also disturbed him as a neuroscientist who thought he had a good handler on how the brain worked, on how his own brain worked.

00:29:01 Speaker_02
From a neuroscience perspective, how does this happen that you can instantly do this aggression without even being aware and it's all unconscious?

00:29:10 Speaker_02
If something in my environment could cause me to suddenly risk life and limb with no conscious thought, I wanted to understand how that worked at a neuroscience level, what's going on in the brain.

00:29:23 Speaker_01
The question again was why evolution, which has sculpted our brains and bodies to be skilled survival machines, would preserve systems in the brain that cause us to act with unthinking haste and violence.

00:29:35 Speaker_01
Haste and violence that can place our own lives at great risk. Doug wrote a book as he pondered this question. It's called Why We Snap, Understanding the Rage Circuit in Your Brain. He realized that the answer lay in the question itself.

00:29:53 Speaker_01
It was all about speed.

00:29:56 Speaker_02
The conscious brain is too slow, and it doesn't have the capacity. So when you're faced with a sudden threat, like a fist thrown to your chin, You have to respond faster than the conscious brain can handle it.

00:30:12 Speaker_01
There are lots of things that can be done slowly, but surviving an immediate threat is not one of them. When you're dealing with a predator or some other imminent danger, you have to act fast.

00:30:26 Speaker_02
So nature has developed high-speed pathways to the amygdala. All our senses go there before they go to the cortex, which is where we have consciousness. And that's so you can have this rapid response to a real threat. Now, we've all experienced this.

00:30:46 Speaker_02
You're on a basketball court and a wayward basketball comes towards you and you duck and turn and you bat it away. And then you go, what was that?

00:30:56 Speaker_02
Your unconscious mind detected, because visual input went first to your amygdala, that something was in your visual space that shouldn't be there. Sort of like a motion detector.

00:31:05 Speaker_02
But not only that, then put you on a very definitive course with a complex behavior. You think about the behavior where you turn and you intersect this thing and you bat it away.

00:31:16 Speaker_01
Rational thought isn't just unhelpful when that basketball is hurtling toward you. It's actually counterproductive. Being deliberate can end up getting you smashed in the face.

00:31:28 Speaker_01
But short-circuiting logic creates dangers, especially when you're in the grip of an emotion like rage. You can literally stop thinking about your arm as your arm. It becomes a weapon that can be wielded, deployed, sacrificed.

00:31:45 Speaker_02
the brain's threat detection mechanism, which is highly controlled. To engage in a violent, aggressive interaction risks life and limb.

00:31:56 Speaker_01
Most of the time, we are well served by being logical and deliberate. But on rare occasions, it's helpful to act with unthinking haste. The operative word here is rare.

00:32:09 Speaker_01
What Doug has found is that wild, red rage erupts in very specific situations, often when you're defending your most vital interests.

00:32:20 Speaker_02
The brain controls this response so that it's only tripped by very specific triggers.

00:32:28 Speaker_01
Doug says most of these triggers are related to our basic needs. For example, you can easily imagine an animal or a human reacting with protective rage when its own life is in danger.

00:32:40 Speaker_02
Life or limb, if you're attacked, you will fight back. There's nothing to lose, all animals will do that.

00:32:45 Speaker_01
Another thing most animals will do? Protect their young. You know the rule, never get between a mama bear and her cub. And while you're at it, don't try to steal her dinner.

00:32:57 Speaker_02
resources. That was the other thing that was tripped when my wallet got snagged. Even a family puppy will snap at your hand if you get too close to the dish.

00:33:06 Speaker_01
The list goes on. Don't try to take my mate. Don't encroach on my territory. Don't corner me.

00:33:13 Speaker_02
If an animal is trapped, it will use aggression to break free. I mean, an animal in a trap will chew its leg off. But so will a human.

00:33:22 Speaker_01
These triggers remind us of a truth we cannot avoid. Humans, at the end of the day, are animals. But we're also more complicated than this list may suggest. One story that made an impression on Doug involved a man named Ray Young.

00:33:41 Speaker_01
He was 67 years old and lived in Silver Spring, Maryland, where Doug lived too. Ray was waiting his turn at a post office one day when he saw what he thought was another customer cut the line.

00:33:55 Speaker_02
The next thing that happened was unbelievable. He pulled out a knife and started knifing the guy viciously. I went to many of his trials and, you know, he had no record of violence, no arrest record, is completely out of character.

00:34:13 Speaker_01
Ray snapped because he was defending something that is of vital importance to humans.

00:34:19 Speaker_02
Order and society. This guy broke the rules. He cut in line.

00:34:23 Speaker_01
We all depend on a functioning social order. A stable, rule-following society is as essential to our survival as food and shelter. We're willing to fight to maintain such order.

00:34:36 Speaker_02
In social animals, in order to maintain order following the rules, aggression is what is used. That's still what we use. We use violence.

00:34:47 Speaker_01
Now, it's not as if every threat produces mindless rage. Plenty of people see the social order breached or get insulted and don't turn into Rambo. The threshold for snapping and the drivers of violence can vary between people.

00:35:04 Speaker_02
So sometimes the right thing to do is to be the Marine and charge after the threat, and sometimes that's going to get you killed.

00:35:11 Speaker_02
But as a species, the group as a whole will survive because somebody's going to do one thing and somebody's going to do something else.

00:35:18 Speaker_01
Doug says stress is often a factor in sending us over the edge. He sees stress at play in Jess Cavender's response to the armed robber. She didn't scream and dig her hands into the attacker when she first saw him. She tried to appease him.

00:35:35 Speaker_02
She had been enduring this for a while and stress was building and it tripped that trigger.

00:35:42 Speaker_01
The resource trigger.

00:35:44 Speaker_02
She said that it was the most valuable thing in her life that she depended on for food and everything was her camera. And they weren't going to get it.

00:35:54 Speaker_01
Now, there is a wrong lesson you can draw from this account of rage. You could say, look, Jess lost it, and because she became enraged, she managed to save her camera.

00:36:04 Speaker_01
Doug was furious at being robbed, and his rage allowed him to take his wallet back from the Barcelona thieves. These examples suggest rage always results in good outcomes, that you would end up better off when you violently lose your temper.

00:36:18 Speaker_01
What this misses is that literally no one in their right mind will tell you to attack a man with a gun or to take on a street gang in a foreign country. Risking your life to save some money or to protect a camera is a very definition of foolishness.

00:36:36 Speaker_01
When we come back, why you can't understand the deep logic of blinding rage by looking only at situations where things turn out well for you. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

00:36:57 Speaker_07
This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

00:37:00 Speaker_01
Mohamed Bouazizi was sick of the police and their demands for bribes. He was a produce seller in the city of Sidi Bouzid in Tunisia, in North Africa. The harassment felt endless.

00:37:16 Speaker_01
On a Friday morning in December 2010, Mohamed had an encounter with the police. Years later, there are still varying accounts of what happened. According to some, a cop confiscated the scales that Mohamed used to sell his produce.

00:37:32 Speaker_01
Others said an officer wouldn't let him set up his stand. Some accounts said Mohamed was slapped or perhaps kicked. The street vendor did what citizens are supposed to do. He went to the authorities to protest his mistreatment.

00:37:49 Speaker_01
But when he got to the government building to lodge a complaint, he was barred from entry. Muhammad was gripped by an intense feeling of injustice. And then, he snapped. He doused himself with gasoline.

00:38:08 Speaker_01
Standing in front of the government building that had shut the door on him, he struck a match and set himself ablaze. One of the last things onlookers heard from him were these words, how do you expect me to make a living?

00:38:29 Speaker_01
By the time the fire was doused and Muhammad was rushed to a hospital, burns covered 90% of his body. He died a few weeks later. His story shows the self-destructive power of wild, red rage. But it also reveals the hidden logic of fury.

00:38:56 Speaker_01
Thousands of Muhammad's fellow Tunisians showed up at his funeral. On social media, he was dubbed a martyr. Members of the crowd shouted, farewell, Muhammad. We will avenge you. We weep for you today. We will make those who caused your death weep.

00:39:26 Speaker_01
Ten days after Muhammad's death, with escalating protests around the country, the president of Tunisia ended a 23-year autocratic reign and fled the country.

00:39:38 Speaker_01
Within weeks, protests in Tunisia spread to other Arab countries in what came to be known as the Arab Spring. It is the end of an era in Tunisia.

00:39:49 Speaker_02
President Hosni Mubarak has stepped down.

00:39:57 Speaker_01
Neuroscientist Doug Fields has found that we are capable of fury when we want to defend our lives or protect family or guard resources. Rage can be triggered when we want to maintain the social order. It also serves another useful purpose.

00:40:15 Speaker_01
Rage acts as a signaling device.

00:40:20 Speaker_03
If you look at the long history of social protest, it's just clear that powerful emotions like anger and rage have a huge and have had a huge role to play in galvanizing people, motivating them, bringing them together in movements towards increased justice.

00:40:41 Speaker_01
This is Amiya Srinivasan, a philosopher at the University of Oxford. Amir recognizes that rage does have costs, but she wants us to remember that it can be useful to communities, causes, and individuals.

00:40:57 Speaker_03
Anger can play this clarifying role for myself, so it can help me understand what's going on, right? It can make me come to certain kinds of moral and political realizations I didn't have before. I come to realize there's actually an injustice at work.

00:41:16 Speaker_01
The benefits of anger don't stop with the clarity it brings to us as individuals.

00:41:22 Speaker_03
Getting angry can act as a certain kind of warning signal to other people. And in fact, there's a lot of social psychological evidence that suggests that getting angry can be an effective means of changing other people's behavior.

00:41:39 Speaker_03
Counter to the kind of standard liberal understanding where calm group deliberation is the only way to get people to change, actually getting angry sometimes is an effective social signal to motivate other people.

00:41:52 Speaker_01
In fact, Amir argues, it's important when we talk about fury to distinguish between what might be counterproductive or even harmful to individuals in the short run and the usefulness of that fury to movements, groups, and causes.

00:42:08 Speaker_03
Individual anger can often spread and become communal anger and collective anger. And collective anger has extraordinary forms

00:42:22 Speaker_01
She asked me to think of an example in an interpersonal setting. Imagine this scenario. You're in a romantic relationship, and your partner cheats on you.

00:42:32 Speaker_03
I mean, it might be that getting angry at your cheating lover just encourages that cheating lover to cheat more. And if your lover were to say to you, well, you shouldn't get angry at me because it just makes me cheat more.

00:42:46 Speaker_03
I mean, that's an infuriating response. And it's infuriating because it treats your anger as just an instrument, an instrument for encouraging or discouraging his or her behavior.

00:42:59 Speaker_03
Whereas, in fact, anger, like other moral emotions, is something that makes a claim about the world.

00:43:08 Speaker_01
An angry spouse does more than show her displeasure at infidelity. She's also sending a signal about the kind of behavior we think is appropriate in a society, in interpersonal relationships. Her anger sends a message to other spouses.

00:43:29 Speaker_01
Obviously, this is not happening at a conscious level. Rage can prompt you to take a stand about something and make you incur personal costs. By short-circuiting reason, it makes you ignore those costs.

00:43:43 Speaker_01
Your actions might be personally harmful, but it can help the group to which you belong. This is why natural selection might conserve such behavior.

00:43:53 Speaker_02
We have these circuits because we need them. We have violence because, unfortunately, we need them. We don't call it snapping when the outcome is good. Then we call it heroism or quick thinking.

00:44:08 Speaker_01
Rage, in fact, might be one way that nature gets us to prioritize the interests of our groups over our narrow self-interest. By disabling logic and impairing reason,

00:44:20 Speaker_01
we can be prompted to do things that we would never do if we were only looking out for ourselves.

00:44:27 Speaker_02
So somebody violates a social norm, and we become angry. And again, anger is preparing you to fight. And as we know, sometimes these turn out tragically. People get into a fight on the road and pull out a gun.

00:44:42 Speaker_01
Acting in the interest of a group is not always the right or virtuous thing. Terrorist organizations have long used rage as a recruiting tool for new followers.

00:44:53 Speaker_01
The anger of partisan politics can cause us to think more about the well-being of narrow groups, like our political parties, rather than the well-being of larger groups, like our nation. Fury can drive massacres, wars, and genocide.

00:45:09 Speaker_01
All this leaves us in a bind. If we were to eliminate rage or to logically determine when to get angry, we lose the speed and potency of sudden anger.

00:45:20 Speaker_01
But when we allow our furies to flare unchecked, we can cause senseless damage to ourselves and others. Many centuries ago, the philosopher Aristotle said, anyone can become angry. That is easy.

00:45:34 Speaker_01
But to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not easy. Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media.

00:46:01 Speaker_01
Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy-Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Querell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Audio mix on today's episode by Rob Byers, Johnny Vince Evans, and Michael Raphael of Final Final V2.

00:46:18 Speaker_01
Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. Today's show is the final episode in our Emotions 2.0 series.

00:46:30 Speaker_01
Over the past few weeks, we've talked about how group dynamics shape the way we feel about our lives and the world around us. We've looked at the importance of ambivalence and the complex emotion of pride.

00:46:41 Speaker_01
If you missed any of the episodes in the series, be sure to go back and check them out on our podcast or on our website, hiddenbrain.org. If you want even more Hidden Brain after you're done with that, please subscribe to our newsletter.

00:46:55 Speaker_01
In each issue, we bring you interesting ideas and research on human behavior, along with a brain teaser and a moment of joy. You can subscribe at news.hiddenbrain.org. That's n-e-w-s dot hiddenbrain dot org. I'm Shankar Vedantham. See you soon.