Dr. Terry Sejnowski: How to Improve at Learning Using Neuroscience & AI AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Huberman Lab

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Episode: Dr. Terry Sejnowski: How to Improve at Learning Using Neuroscience & AI

Author: Scicomm Media
Duration: 02:34:10

Episode Shownotes

In this episode, my guest is Dr. Terry Sejnowski, Ph.D., professor of computational neurobiology at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies. He is world-renowned for exploring how our brain processes and stores information and, with that understanding, for developing tools that enable us to markedly improve our ability to learn

all types of information and skills. We discuss how to learn most effectively in order to truly master a subject or skill. Dr. Sejnowski explains how to use AI tools to forage for new information, generate ideas, predict the future, and assist in analyzing health data and making health-related decisions. We also explore non-AI strategies to enhance learning and creativity, including how specific types of exercise can improve mitochondrial function and cognitive performance. Listeners will gain insights into how computational methods and AI are transforming our understanding of brain function, learning, and memory, as well as the emerging roles of these tools in addressing personal health and treating brain diseases such as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s. Access the full show notes for this episode at hubermanlab.com. Pre-order Andrew's new book, Protocols: protocolsbook.com Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://helixsleep.com/huberman David Protein: https://davidprotein.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Joovv: https://joovv.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Terry Sejnowski 00:02:32 Sponsors: BetterHelp & Helix Sleep 00:05:19 Brain Structure & Function, Algorithmic Level 00:11:49 Basal Ganglia; Learning & Value Function 00:15:23 Value Function, Reward & Punishment 00:19:14 Cognitive vs. Procedural Learning, Active Learning, AI 00:25:56 Learning & Brain Storage 00:30:08 Traveling Waves, Sleep Spindles, Memory 00:32:08 Sponsors: AG1 & David 00:34:57 Tool: Increase Sleep Spindles; Memory, Ambien; Prescription Drugs 00:42:02 Psilocybin, Brain Connectivity 00:45:58 Tool: ‘Learning How to Learn’ Course 00:49:36 Learning, Generational Differences, Technology, Social Media 00:58:37 Sponsors: LMNT & Joovv 01:01:06 Draining Experiences, AI & Social Media 01:06:52 Vigor & Aging, Continued Learning, Tool: Exercise & Mitochondrial Function 01:12:17 Tool: Cognitive Velocity; Quick Stressors, Mitochondria 01:16:58 AI, Imagined Futures, Possibilities 01:27:14 AI & Mapping Potential Options, Schizophrenia 01:30:56 Schizophrenia, Ketamine, Depression 01:36:15 AI, “Idea Pump,” Analyzing Research 01:42:11 AI, Medicine & Diagnostic Tool; Predicting Outcomes 01:50:04 Parkinson’s Disease; Cognitive Velocity & Variables; Amphetamines 01:59:49 Free Will; Large Language Model (LLM), Personalities & Learning 02:12:40 Tool: Idea Generation, Mind Wandering, Learning 02:18:18 Dreams, Unconscious, Types of Dreams 02:22:56 Future Projects, Brain & Self-Attention 02:31:39 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures

Summary

In this episode of the Huberman Lab podcast, Dr. Terry Sejnowski discusses the brain's learning mechanisms, emphasizing a fundamental learning algorithm linked to dopamine and motivation. He distinguishes between bottom-up and top-down approaches in understanding brain functions, focusing on the basal ganglia's role in procedural learning. The conversation highlights cognitive enhancement, the importance of sleep for memory consolidation, and the integration of AI tools in learning strategies. Additionally, lifestyle factors like exercise are noted for their impact on cognitive health, showing how neuroscience and technology intersect to optimize learning.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Dr. Terry Sejnowski: How to Improve at Learning Using Neuroscience & AI) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_01
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Terry Signowski.

00:00:18 Speaker_01
Dr. Terry Signowski is a professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, where he directs the Computational Neurobiology Laboratory. And as his title suggests, he is a computational neuroscientist.

00:00:29 Speaker_01
That is, he uses math as well as artificial intelligence and computing methods to understand this overarching, ultra important question of how the brain works.

00:00:39 Speaker_01
Now, I realize that when people hear terms like computational neuroscience, algorithms, large language models, and AI, that it can be a bit overwhelming and even intimidating.

00:00:48 Speaker_01
But I assure you that the purpose of Dr. Sagnowski's work, and indeed today's discussion, is all about using those methods to clarify how the brain works, and indeed to simplify the answer to that question.

00:01:00 Speaker_01
So for instance, today you will learn that regardless of who you are, regardless of your experience, that all your motivation in all domains of life is governed by a simple algorithm or equation.

00:01:12 Speaker_01
Dr. Signowski explains how a single rule, a single learning rule drives all of our motivation related behaviors. And it of course relates to the neuromodulator dopamine.

00:01:22 Speaker_01
And if you're familiar with dopamine as a term, today you will really understand how dopamine works to drive your levels of motivation, or in some cases, lack of motivation, and how to overcome that lack of motivation.

00:01:34 Speaker_01
Today, we also discuss how best to learn.

00:01:36 Speaker_01
Dr. Sadnowski shares not just information about how the brain works, but also practical tools that he and colleagues have developed, including a zero cost online portal that teaches you how to learn better based on your particular learning style.

00:01:51 Speaker_01
the way that you in particular forge for information and implement that information.

00:01:55 Speaker_01
Dr. Signowski also explains how he himself uses physical exercise of a particular type in order to enhance his cognition, that is his brain's ability to learn information and to come up with new ideas.

00:02:08 Speaker_01
Today, we also discuss both the healthy brain and the diseased brain.

00:02:12 Speaker_01
in conditions like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, and how particular tools that relate to mitochondrial function can perhaps be used in order to treat various diseases, including Alzheimer's dementia.

00:02:23 Speaker_01
I'm certain that by the end of today's episode, you will have learned a tremendous amount of new knowledge about how your brain works and practical tools that you can implement in your daily life.

00:02:32 Speaker_01
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

00:02:38 Speaker_01
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

00:02:50 Speaker_01
Our first sponsor is BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out completely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice.

00:03:01 Speaker_01
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school, but pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health.

00:03:07 Speaker_01
In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training, which of course I also do every single week.

00:03:18 Speaker_01
Now, there are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about essentially all issues that you want to.

00:03:27 Speaker_01
Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or simply directed guidance, what to do or what not to do in given areas of your life.

00:03:36 Speaker_01
And third, expert therapy can provide you useful insights that you would not have been able to arrive at on your own.

00:03:42 Speaker_01
BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist who you really resonate with and that can provide you the benefits I just mentioned that come with effective therapy.

00:03:50 Speaker_01
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com slash Huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com slash Huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.

00:04:03 Speaker_01
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.

00:04:07 Speaker_01
Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

00:04:16 Speaker_01
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is or how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.

00:04:27 Speaker_01
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00:04:37 Speaker_01
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00:04:46 Speaker_01
I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com slash Huberman.

00:04:57 Speaker_01
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00:05:09 Speaker_01
Again, that's helixsleep.com slash Huberman to get up to 25% off and two free pillows. And now for my discussion with Dr. Terry Saynowski. Dr. Terry Saynowski, welcome. Great to be here. We go way back.

00:05:24 Speaker_01
And I'm a huge, huge fan of your work because you've worked on a great many different things in the field of neuroscience. You're considered by many a computational neuroscience.

00:05:34 Speaker_01
So you bring mathematical models to an understanding of the brain and neural networks. And we're also going to talk about AI today and we're going to make it accessible for everybody, biologist or no, math background or no.

00:05:46 Speaker_01
To kick things off, I want to understand something.

00:05:50 Speaker_01
I understand a bit about the parts list of the brain, and most listeners of this podcast will understand a little bit of the parts list of the brain, even if they've never heard an episode of this podcast before, because they understand there are cells, those cells are neurons, those neurons connect to one another in very specific ways that allow us to see, to hear, to think, et cetera.

00:06:07 Speaker_01
But I've come to the belief that even if we know the parts list, it doesn't really inform us how the brain works, right? This is the big question. How does the brain work? What is consciousness? All of this stuff.

00:06:22 Speaker_01
So where and how does an understanding of how neurons talk to one another start to give us a real understanding about like how the brain works? Like, what is this piece of meat in our heads?

00:06:36 Speaker_01
Because it can't just be, okay, the hippocampus remembers stuff and the, you know, the visual cortex perceives stuff. When you sit back and you remove the math from the mental conversation, if that's possible for you,

00:06:50 Speaker_01
How do you think about quote-unquote how the brain works?

00:06:53 Speaker_01
Like at a very basic level, what is this piece of meat in our heads really trying to accomplish from let's just say the time when we first wake up in the morning and we're a little groggy till we make it to that first cup of coffee or water, or maybe even just to urinate first thing in the morning.

00:07:10 Speaker_01
What is going on in there?

00:07:11 Speaker_03
What a great question. And you know, I have a, Pat Churchland and I wrote a book, Computational Brain, and in it there's this levels diagram.

00:07:25 Speaker_03
And it levels of investigation at different spatial scales from the molecular at the very bottom to synapses and neurons, circuits, neural circuits, how they're connected with each other, and then brain areas in the cortex and then the whole central nervous system span 10 orders of magnitude, you know, 10th to the 10th in spatial scale.

00:07:49 Speaker_03
So, you know, where is consciousness in all of that? So there are two approaches that neuroscientists have taken. I shouldn't say neuroscientists, I should say that scientists have taken.

00:08:04 Speaker_03
And the one you described, which is, you know, let's look at all the parts, that's the bottom-up approach. You know, take it apart into a reductionist approach. And you make a lot of progress.

00:08:15 Speaker_03
You can figure out, you know, how things are connected and understand how development works, how neurons connect. But it's very difficult to really make progress because quickly you get lost in the forest.

00:08:28 Speaker_03
Now, the other approach, which has been successful, but at the end unsatisfying, is the top-down approach. And this is the approach that psychologists have taken looking at behavior and trying to understand the laws of behavior.

00:08:47 Speaker_03
This is the behaviorists. But even people in AI were trying to do a top-down, to write programs. that could replicate human behavior, intelligent behavior.

00:09:00 Speaker_03
And I have to say that both of those approaches, bottom up or top down, have really not gotten to the core of answering any of those questions, the big questions.

00:09:11 Speaker_03
But there's a whole new approach now that is emerging in both neuroscience and AI at exactly the same time. At this moment in history, it's really quite remarkable.

00:09:22 Speaker_03
So there's an intermediate level between the implementation level at the bottom, how you implement some particular mechanism, and the actual behavior of the whole system is called the algorithmic level. level. It's in between.

00:09:42 Speaker_03
So algorithms are like recipes. They're like when you bake a cake, you have to have ingredients and you have to say the order in which they're put together and how long. And if you get it wrong, it doesn't work. It's just a mess.

00:10:00 Speaker_03
Now, it turns out that we're discovering algorithms. We've made a lot of progress. with understanding the algorithms that are used in neural circuits. And this speaks to the computational level of how to understand the function of the neural circuit.

00:10:19 Speaker_03
But I'm going to give you one example of an algorithm, which is one we worked on back in the 1990s when Peter Dayan and Reed Montague were postdocs in the lab.

00:10:32 Speaker_03
And it had to do with a part of the brain below the cortex called the basal ganglia, which is responsible for learning sequences of actions in order to achieve some goal.

00:10:45 Speaker_03
For example, if you wanna play tennis, you have to be able to coordinate many muscles and a whole sequence of actions has to be made if you wanna be able to serve accurately, and you have to practice, practice, practice.

00:10:59 Speaker_03
Well, what's going on there is that the basal ganglia basically is taking over from the cortex and producing actions that get better and better and better and better. And that's true not just of the muscles, but it's also true of thinking.

00:11:15 Speaker_03
If you want to become good in any area, if you want to become a good financier, if you want to become a good doctor, or neuroscientists, right?

00:11:26 Speaker_03
You have to be practicing, practicing, practicing in terms of understanding what's the details of the profession and what works, what doesn't work and so forth.

00:11:39 Speaker_03
And it turns out that this basal ganglia interacts with the cortex, not just in the back, which is the action part, but also with the prefrontal cortex, which is the thinking part.

00:11:48 Speaker_01
Can I ask you a question about this briefly? The basal ganglia, as I understand, are involved in

00:11:54 Speaker_01
the organization of two major types of behaviors, go, meaning to actually perform a behavior, but the basal ganglia also instruct no-go, don't engage in that behavior.

00:12:06 Speaker_01
And learning an expert golf swing or even a basic golf swing or a tennis racket swing involves both of those things, go and no-go. Given what you just said, which is that the basal ganglia are also involved in generating thoughts of particular kinds.

00:12:23 Speaker_01
I wonder therefore if it's also involved in suppression of thoughts of particular kinds. I mean, you don't want your surgeon cutting into a particular region and just thinking about their motor behaviors, what to do and what not to do.

00:12:38 Speaker_01
They presumably need to think about what to think about, but also what to not think about. You don't want that surgeon thinking about how their kid was a brat that morning and they're frustrated because the two things interact.

00:12:50 Speaker_01
So is there go, no-go in terms of action and learning? And is there go, no-go in terms of thinking?

00:12:54 Speaker_03
Well, I mentioned the prefrontal cortex and that part, the loop with the basal ganglia, that is one of the last to mature in early adulthood.

00:13:04 Speaker_03
And, you know, the problem is that for adolescents, it's not the no-go part for, you know, planning and actions isn't quite there yet. And so often it doesn't kick in to prevent you from doing things that are not in your best interest.

00:13:20 Speaker_03
So yes, absolutely right. But one of the things, though, is that learning is involved. And this is really a problem that we cracked.

00:13:29 Speaker_03
first theoretically in the 90s and then experimentally later by recording from neurons and also brain imaging in humans. So it turns out we know the algorithm that is used in the brain for how to learn sequences of actions to achieve a goal.

00:13:47 Speaker_03
And it's the simplest possible algorithm you can imagine. It's simply to predict the next reward you're going to get. If I do an action, will it give me something of value?

00:14:03 Speaker_03
And you learn every time you try something, whether you got the amount of reward you expected or less, you use that to update the synapses.

00:14:12 Speaker_03
synaptic plasticity, so that the next time you'll have a better chance of getting a better reward, and you build up what's called a value function.

00:14:21 Speaker_03
So the cortex now, over your lifetime, is building up a lot of knowledge about things that are good for you, things that are bad for you, like you go to a restaurant, you order something, how do you know what's good for you, right?

00:14:33 Speaker_03
You've had lots of meals in a lot of places, and now that is part of your value function. This is the same algorithm that was used by AlphaGo. This is the program that DeepMind built. This is an AI program that beat the world Go champion.

00:14:51 Speaker_03
And Go is the most complex game that humans have ever created. played on a regular basis.

00:14:58 Speaker_01
Far more complex than chess, as I understand.

00:15:00 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's right. So, go is to chess, which chess is to something like checkers.

00:15:06 Speaker_03
In other words, the level of difficulty is another way off above it, because you have to think in terms of battles going on all over the place at the same time, and the order in which you put the pieces down are gonna affect what's gonna happen in the future.

00:15:24 Speaker_01
So this value function is super interesting. And I wonder whether, and I think you answered this, but I wonder whether this value function is implemented over long periods of time.

00:15:36 Speaker_01
So you talked about the value function in terms of learning a motor skill. let's say swinging a tennis racket to do a perfect tennis serve, or even just a decent tennis serve.

00:15:49 Speaker_01
When somebody goes back to the court, let's say on the weekend, once a month over the course of years, are they able to tap into that same value function every time they go back, even though there's been a lot of intervening time and learning?

00:16:04 Speaker_01
That's question number one. And then the other question is, do you think that this value function is also being played out

00:16:10 Speaker_01
in more complex scenarios, not just motor learning, such as, let's say a domain of life that for many people involves some trial and error, it would be like human relationships. We learn how to be friends with people.

00:16:23 Speaker_01
We learn how to be a good sibling. We learn how to be a good romantic partner. We get some things right, we get some things wrong. So as the same value function being implemented, we're paying attention to what was rewarding

00:16:35 Speaker_01
But what I didn't hear you say also was what was punishing. So are we only paying attention to what is rewarding or we're also integrating punishment? We don't get an electric shock when we get the serve wrong, but we can be frustrated.

00:16:47 Speaker_03
what you identified is a very important feature, which is that rewards, by the way, every time you do something, you're updating this value function, every time. And it accumulates.

00:17:03 Speaker_03
And the answer to your first question, the answer is that it's always going to be there. It doesn't matter. It's a very permanent part of your experience and who you are.

00:17:15 Speaker_03
And interestingly, and behaviorists knew this back in the 1950s, that you can get there two ways of trial and error.

00:17:26 Speaker_03
Small rewards are good because you're constantly coming closer and closer to getting what you're seeking, better tennis player or being able to make a friend. But the negative Punishment is much more effective. One trial learning.

00:17:52 Speaker_03
You don't need to have, you know, 100 trials to, you know, what you need, you know, when you're training a rat to do some tasks with small food rewards. But if you just shock the rat, boy, that rat doesn't forget that.

00:18:06 Speaker_01
Yeah, one really bad relationship will have you learning certain things forever.

00:18:11 Speaker_03
And this is also PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, is another good example of that. That can screw you up for the rest of your life.

00:18:20 Speaker_03
So, but the other thing, and you pointed out something really important, which is that a large part of the prefrontal cortex is devoted to social interactions.

00:18:29 Speaker_03
And this is how humans, you know, when you come into the world, you don't know what language you're going to be speaking. You don't know what the cultural values are that you're going to have to be able to become a member of this

00:18:42 Speaker_03
society and things that are expected of you, all of that has to become, through experience, through building this value function. This is something we discovered in the 20th century, and now it's going into AI.

00:18:55 Speaker_03
It's called reinforcement learning in AI. It's a form of procedural learning, as opposed to the cognitive level, where you think and you do things. Cognitive thinking is much less efficient.

00:19:07 Speaker_03
because you have to go step-by-step with procedural learning, it's automatic.

00:19:13 Speaker_01
Can you give me an example of procedural learning in the context of a comparison to cognitive learning? Like, is there an example of

00:19:22 Speaker_01
perhaps like how to make a decent cup of coffee using, you know, purely knowledge-based learning versus procedural learning. Where procedural learning wins. And I can imagine one, but you're the true expert here.

00:19:36 Speaker_03
Well, you know, no, you know a lot of examples, but since we've been talking about tennis, can you imagine learning how to play tennis through a book, reading a book?

00:19:45 Speaker_01
That's so funny. On the plane back from Nashville yesterday, the guy sitting across the aisle from me was reading a book about maybe he was working on his pilot's license or something.

00:19:57 Speaker_01
And I looked over and couldn't help but notice these diagrams of the plane flying. And I thought, I'm just so glad that this guy is a passenger and not a pilot. And then I thought about how the pilots learned. And presumably it was a combination of

00:20:11 Speaker_01
practical learning and textbook learning. I mean, when you scuba dive, this is true. I'm scuba dive certified.

00:20:17 Speaker_01
And when you get your certification, you learn your dive tables and you learn why you have to wait between dives, et cetera, and gas exchange and a number of things. But

00:20:26 Speaker_01
there's really no way to simulate what it is to take your mask off underwater, put it back on and then, you know, blow the water out of your mask.

00:20:32 Speaker_01
Like that, you just have to do that in a pool and you actually have to do it when you need to for it to really get drilled in.

00:20:39 Speaker_03
Yes, it's really essential for things that have to be executed quickly and expertly to get that, you know, really down pat so you don't have to think. And This happens in school, right?

00:20:58 Speaker_03
In other words, you have classroom lessons where you're given explicit instruction, but then you go do homework. That's procedural learning. You do problems, you solve problems.

00:21:11 Speaker_03
And, you know, I'm a PhD physicist, so I went through all of the classes, you know, in theoretical physics. And it was really the problems that really were the core of becoming a good physicist.

00:21:23 Speaker_03
You know, you can memorize the equations, but that doesn't mean you understand how to use the equations.

00:21:28 Speaker_01
I think it's worth highlighting something. A lot of times on this podcast, we talk about what I call protocols.

00:21:33 Speaker_01
It would be, you know, like get some morning sunlight in your eyes to stimulate your suprachiasmatic nucleus by way of your retinal ganglion cells. Audiences of this podcast will recognize those terms.

00:21:41 Speaker_01
It's basically get sunlight in your eyes in the morning and set your circadian clock.

00:21:45 Speaker_01
And you can hear that a trillion times, but I do believe that there's some value to both knowing what the protocol is, the underlying mechanisms, there are these things in your eye that, you know, encode the sunrise,

00:21:57 Speaker_01
qualities of light, et cetera, and then send them to your brain, et cetera, et cetera.

00:22:00 Speaker_01
But then once we link knowledge, pure knowledge to a practice, I do believe that the two things merge someplace in a way that let's say reinforces both the knowledge and the practice. So these things are not necessarily separate, they bridge.

00:22:17 Speaker_01
In other words, doing your theoretical physics problem sets reinforces the examples that you learned in lecture and in your textbooks and vice versa.

00:22:26 Speaker_03
So this is a battle that's going on right now in schools. What you just said is absolutely right. You need both. We have two major learning systems. We have a cognitive learning system, which is cortical.

00:22:40 Speaker_03
We have a procedural learning system, which is subcortical, basal ganglia. And the two go hand in hand. If you want to become good at anything, the two are going to help each other.

00:22:53 Speaker_03
And what's going on right now in schools, in California at least, is that they're trying to get rid of the procedural.

00:23:01 Speaker_01
That's ridiculous.

00:23:02 Speaker_03
They don't want students to practice because it's going to be, you know, you're stressing them. You don't want them to be, to feel that, you know, that they're having difficulty. So, but we can, but it can do everything.

00:23:15 Speaker_01
For those listening, I'm covering my eyes because I mean, this would be like saying, goodness, there's so many examples. Like here's a textbook on swimming and then you're going to go out to the ocean someday and you will have never actually swum.

00:23:27 Speaker_01
Right. And now you're expected to be able to survive, let alone swim well.

00:23:33 Speaker_03
It's crazy. It's crazy. And I'll tell you, Barbara Oakley has, and I have a MOOC, Massive Open Online Course on learning how to learn. And it helps students.

00:23:46 Speaker_03
We aimed it at students, but it actually has been taken by 4 million people in 200 countries, ages 10 to 90. What is this called? Learning how to learn.

00:23:55 Speaker_01
Is it, is there a paywall?

00:23:58 Speaker_03
No, it's free, completely free. Amazing. And, you know, I get incredible feedback, you know, fan letters almost every day.

00:24:07 Speaker_01
Well, you're about to get a few more. Okay, well- I did an episode on learning how to learn, and my understanding of the research is that we need to test ourselves on the material. That testing is not just a form of evaluation.

00:24:17 Speaker_00
Yes.

00:24:18 Speaker_01
It is a form of, identifying the errors that help us then compensate for the errors and learn. But it's very procedural. It's not about just listening and regurgitating.

00:24:31 Speaker_03
You know, you've put your finger on it, which is that, and this is what we teach the students, is that you have to, the way the brain works, right, is not, it doesn't memorize things like a computer. But it has to be active learning.

00:24:48 Speaker_03
You have to actively engage. In fact, when you're trying to solve a problem on your own, this is where you're really learning by trial and error, and that's the procedural system. But if someone tells you what the right answer is,

00:25:01 Speaker_03
You know, that's just something that is a fact that it gets stored away somewhere, but it's not going to automatically come up if you actually are faced with something that's not exactly the same problem, but is similar.

00:25:13 Speaker_03
And by the way, this is the key to AI, completely essential for the recent success of these large language models, you know, that the public now is beginning to use, is that they're not parrots. They just don't memorize

00:25:32 Speaker_03
the data that they've taken in, they have to generalize. That means to be able to do well on new things that come in that are similar to the old things that you've seen, but allow you to solve new problems. That's the key to the brain.

00:25:47 Speaker_03
The brain is really, really good at generalizing. In fact, in many cases, you only need one example to generalize.

00:25:55 Speaker_01
Like going to a restaurant for the first time, there are a number of new interactions, right? There might be a host or a hostess. You sit down at these tables you've never sat at. Somebody asks you questions, you read it.

00:26:07 Speaker_01
Okay, maybe it's a QR code these days, but forever after you understand the process of going into a restaurant, doesn't matter what the genre of food happens to be or what city, sitting inside or outside, you can pretty much work it out.

00:26:22 Speaker_01
Sit at the counter, sit outside, sit at the table. There are a number of key action steps that I think pretty much translate to everywhere.

00:26:31 Speaker_01
Unless you go to some super high-end thing or some super low-end thing where it's a buffet or whatever, you can start to fill in the blanks here.

00:26:39 Speaker_01
If I understand correctly, there's an action function that's learned from the knowledge and the experience. And then where is that action function stored? Is it in one location in the brain or is it kind of an emergent property of multiple brain areas?

00:26:55 Speaker_03
So you're right at the cusp here of where we are in neuroscience right now. We don't know the answer to that question. In the past, it had been thought that the cortex were like countries, each part of the cortex was dedicated to one function.

00:27:20 Speaker_03
And interestingly, you record for the neurons, and it certainly looks that way.

00:27:23 Speaker_03
In other words, there's a visual cortex in the back, and there's a whole series of areas, and then there's an auditory cortex here in the middle, and then the prefrontal cortex for social interaction.

00:27:34 Speaker_03
And so it looked really clear-cut that it's modular. And now what we're facing is we have a new way to record from neurons. Optically, we can record from tens of thousands, from dozens of areas simultaneously.

00:27:51 Speaker_03
And what we're discovering is that if you want to do any task, you're engaging not just the area that you might think has the input coming against the visual system, but the visual system is getting input from the motor system. Right?

00:28:08 Speaker_03
In fact, you know, there's more input coming from the motor system than from the eye. Really? Yes. Ann Churchill at UCLA has shown that in the mouse. This is, so now we're looking at global interactions between all these areas.

00:28:22 Speaker_03
And that's where real complex cognitive behaviors emerge is from those interactions. And now we have the tools for the first time to actually be able to see them in real time. And we're doing that now,

00:28:37 Speaker_03
first on mice and monkeys, but we now can do this in humans. So, I've been collaborating with a group at Mass General Hospital to record from people with epilepsy, and they have to have an operation for people who are drug resistant.

00:28:54 Speaker_03
to be able to find out where it starts in the cortex, where it is initiated, where the seizure starts, and then you have to go in and record simultaneously from a lot of parts of the cortex for weeks until you find out where it is, and then you go in and you try to take it out.

00:29:15 Speaker_03
And often that helps. very, very invasive, but for two weeks, we have access to all those neurons in that cortex that are being recorded from constantly.

00:29:27 Speaker_03
And so I've used, I started out because I was interested in sleep and I wanted to understand what happens in the cortex of a human during sleep. But then we realized that you can also figure, people who have these debilitating problems with seizures,

00:29:45 Speaker_03
You know, they're there for two weeks and they have nothing to do.

00:29:47 Speaker_03
So they just love the fact that scientists are interested in helping them and, you know, teaching them things and finding out where in the cortex things are happening when they learn something. This is a goldmine. It's unbelievable.

00:30:02 Speaker_03
And I've learned things from humans that I could have never gotten from any other species. Amazing. Obviously language is one of them, but there are other things in sleep that we've discovered. having to do with traveling ways.

00:30:15 Speaker_03
There are circular traveling ways that go on during sleep, which is astonishing.

00:30:20 Speaker_01
Nobody ever really saw that before, but now- If you were to ascribe one or two major functions to these traveling waves, what do you think they are accomplishing for us in sleep?

00:30:31 Speaker_01
And by the way, are they associated with deep sleep, slow wave sleep, or with rapid eye movement sleep, or both?

00:30:36 Speaker_03
This is non-REM sleep. This is a jargon, but this is during intermediate,

00:30:44 Speaker_01
Transition states.

00:30:45 Speaker_03
Transition state.

00:30:46 Speaker_01
Okay. Our audience will probably keep up. They've heard a lot about slow wave sleep from me and Matt Walker from Rapid Eye Movement.

00:30:52 Speaker_03
Light slow wave sleep, yeah.

00:30:53 Speaker_01
And so what do these traveling waves accomplish for us?

00:30:55 Speaker_03
Oh, okay. So in the case of the, they're called sleep spindles, the waves last for about, a second or two, and they travel, like I say, in a circle around the cortex.

00:31:08 Speaker_03
And it's known that these spindles are important for consolidating experiences you've had during the day into your long-term memory storage. So it's a very important function.

00:31:20 Speaker_03
And if you take out, see, it's the hippocampus that is replaying the experiences. It's a part of the brain. It's very important for long-term memory. If you don't have a hippocampus, you can't learn new things.

00:31:34 Speaker_03
That is to say, you can't remember what you did yesterday, or for that matter, even an hour earlier. But the hippocampus plays back your experiences, causes the sleep spindles now to need that into the cortex.

00:31:47 Speaker_03
And it's important you do that right, because you don't want to overwrite the existing knowledge you have.

00:31:53 Speaker_03
You just want to basically incorporate the new experience into your existing knowledge base in an efficient way that doesn't interfere with what you already know. So that's an example of a very important function that these traveling waves have.

00:32:08 Speaker_01
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00:32:22 Speaker_01
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00:32:46 Speaker_01
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00:32:55 Speaker_01
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00:32:59 Speaker_01
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00:33:29 Speaker_01
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00:33:44 Speaker_01
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00:34:52 Speaker_01
Again, the link is davidprotein.com slash Huberman. As I recall, there are one or two things that one can do in order to ensure that one gets sufficient sleep spindles at night and thereby incorporate this new knowledge.

00:35:09 Speaker_01
This was from the episode that we did with Gina Poe. from UCLA, I believe, and others, including Matt Walker. My recollection is that the number one thing is to make sure you get enough sleep at night so you experience enough of these spindles.

00:35:22 Speaker_01
And we're all familiar with the cognitive challenges, including memory challenges and learning challenges associated with lack of sleep, insufficient sleep.

00:35:30 Speaker_01
But the other was that there was some interesting relationship between daytime exercise and nighttime prevalence of sleep spindles. Are you familiar with that literature? Yes.

00:35:41 Speaker_03
No, this is a fascinating literature and it's all pointing the same direction, which is that, you know, we always neglect to appreciate the importance of sleep. I mean, obviously you're refreshed when you wake up, but there's a lot of things happen.

00:35:59 Speaker_03
It's not that your brain turns off, it's that it goes into a completely different state. And memory consolidation is just one of those things that happens when you're fall asleep. And of course, there's dreams and so forth.

00:36:11 Speaker_03
We don't fully appreciate or understand exactly how all the different sleep stages work together. But exercise is a particularly important part of getting the motor system tuned up.

00:36:30 Speaker_03
And it's thought that the REM, rapid eye movement sleep, may be involved in that. So that's yet another part of the sleep.

00:36:41 Speaker_03
stages, you go through, you go back and forth between dream sleep and the slow-wave sleep, back and forth, back and forth during the night. And then when you wake up, you're in the REM stage, more and more REM, more and more REM.

00:36:55 Speaker_03
But, you know, that's all observation. But, you know, as a scientist, what you want to do is perturb the system and see if you can, maybe if you had more sleep spindles, maybe you'd be able to remember things better.

00:37:08 Speaker_03
So, it turns out Sarah Mednick, who's at UC Irvine, did this fantastic experiment. So, it turns out there's a drug called zolpidem, which It goes by the name Ambien. You may have some experience with that.

00:37:24 Speaker_01
I've never taken it, but I'm aware of what it is. People use it as a sleep aid.

00:37:29 Speaker_03
That's right. A lot of people take it in order to sleep. Okay. Well, it turns out that it causes more sleep spindles. Really? Yeah. It doubles the number of sleep spindles. If you take the drug, you take the drug,

00:37:49 Speaker_03
After you've done the learning, right, you do the learning at night, and then you take the drug, and you have twice as many spindles. You wake up in the morning, you can remember twice as much.

00:37:59 Speaker_01
from what you learned. And the memories are stable over time? It's just like, it's in there.

00:38:04 Speaker_03
Yes, yeah, no, it consolidates it. I mean, that's the point.

00:38:07 Speaker_01
What's the downside of Ambien?

00:38:10 Speaker_03
Okay, here's the downside. Okay, so people who take the drug, say, if you're going to Europe and you take it and then you sleep really soundly, but often you,

00:38:21 Speaker_03
you find yourself in the hotel room and you completely have no clue, you have no memory of how you got there.

00:38:27 Speaker_01
I've had that experience without Ambien or any other drugs where I am very badly jet lagged.

00:38:32 Speaker_03
Yes.

00:38:33 Speaker_01
And I wake up and for a few seconds, but what feels like eternity, I have no idea where I am.

00:38:39 Speaker_03
It's terrifying. Well, that's another problem that you have with jet lag. Jet lag really screws things up. But this is something where it could be an hour.

00:38:48 Speaker_03
You know, you took the train or you took a taxi or something and you're... So here, now this seems crazy. How could it be a way to improve learning and recall on one hand and then forgetfulness on the other hand?

00:39:05 Speaker_03
Well, it turns out what's important is that when you take the drug, In other words, it helps consolidate experiences you've had in the past before you took the drug.

00:39:22 Speaker_03
but it'll wipe out experiences you have in the future after you take the drug, right?

00:39:27 Speaker_01
You still- Sorry, I'm not laughing. It must be a terrifying experience, but I'm laughing because there's some beautiful pharmacology and indeed some wonderfully useful pharmaceuticals out there.

00:39:40 Speaker_01
Some people may cringe to hear me say that, but there are some very useful drugs out there that save lives and help people deal with symptoms, et cetera. Side effects are always a concern, but this particular drug profile, Ambien,

00:39:52 Speaker_01
that is, seems to reveal something perhaps even more important than the discussion about spindles or ambient or even sleep, which is that you got to pay the piper somehow, as they say. That's right.

00:40:05 Speaker_01
That you tweak one thing in the brain, something else goes. You don't get anything for free.

00:40:13 Speaker_03
That's a true, I think that this is something that is true, not just of drugs for the brain, but steroids for the body.

00:40:24 Speaker_01
Sure. Yeah, I mean, steroids, even low-dose testosterone therapy, which is very popular nowadays, will give people more vigor, et cetera. But it is introducing a sort of second puberty. And puberty is perhaps the most rapid phase of aging.

00:40:38 Speaker_01
in the entire lifespan. Same thing with people who take growth hormone would be probably a better example, because certainly those therapies can be beneficial to people, but growth hormone gives people more vigor, but it accelerates aging.

00:40:50 Speaker_01
Look at the quality of skin that people have when they take growth hormone. It looks more aged. They physically change. And I'm not for or against these things. It's highly individual, but I completely agree with you. I would also venture that

00:41:03 Speaker_01
with the growing interest in so-called nootropics and people taking things like modafinil, not just for narcolepsy, daytime sleepiness, but also to enhance cognitive function.

00:41:14 Speaker_01
Okay, maybe they can get away with doing that every once in a while for a deadline task or something. But my experience is that people who obsess over the use of pharmacology to achieve certain brain states pay in some other way.

00:41:26 Speaker_01
Whether or not stimulants or sedatives or sleep drugs, and that behaviors will always prevail. behaviors will always prevail as tools.

00:41:35 Speaker_03
Yeah and one of the things about the way the body evolved is that it really has to balance a lot of things and so with drugs you're basically unbalancing it somehow.

00:41:50 Speaker_03
And the consequence is, as you point out, is that in order to make one part better, one part of your body, you sacrifice something else somewhere else.

00:42:01 Speaker_01
And- As long as we're talking about brain states and connectivity across areas, I want to ask a particular question. Then I want to return to this issue about how best to learn, especially in kids, but also in adulthood.

00:42:14 Speaker_01
I've become very interested in and spent a lot of time with the literature and some guests on the topic of psychedelics. Let's leave the discussion about LSD aside, because do you know why there aren't many studies of LSD? This is kind of a fun one.

00:42:26 Speaker_01
No one is expected to know the answer. Oh, but there's, so is psilocybin or MDMA, and there are lots of studies going on about this. Oh, there are now, yeah, it's changed.

00:42:34 Speaker_03
But when I was growing up, you know, as you know, it was against the law.

00:42:37 Speaker_01
Right, so what I learned is that there are far fewer clinical trials exploring the use of LSD as a therapeutic, because with the exception of Switzerland, none of the researchers are willing to stay in the laboratory as long as it takes for the,

00:42:49 Speaker_01
subject to get to an LSD journey, whereas psilocybin tends to be a shorter experience. Okay, let's talk about psilocybin for a moment.

00:42:58 Speaker_01
My read of the data on psilocybin is that it's still open to question, but that some of the clinical trials show pretty significant recovery from major depression.

00:43:08 Speaker_01
It's pretty impressive, but if we just set that aside and say, okay, more needs to be worked out for safety, what is very clear from the brain imaging studies

00:43:16 Speaker_01
the sort of before and after, resting state, task-related, et cetera, is that you get more resting state global connectivity, more areas talking to more areas than was the case prior to the use of the psychedelic.

00:43:31 Speaker_01
And given the similarity of the psychedelic journey, and here specifically talking about psilocybin, to things like rapid eye movement, sleep, and things of that sort, I have a very simple question. Do you think that there's any real benefit

00:43:45 Speaker_01
to increasing brain-wide connectivity? To me, it seems a little bit haphazard, and yet the clinical data are promising, if nothing else, promising. And so is what we're seeking in life as we acquire new knowledge,

00:43:58 Speaker_01
as we learn tennis or golf or, you know, take up singing or what have you, as we go from childhood into the late stages of our life, that whole transition is what we're doing, increasing connectivity and communication between different brain areas.

00:44:15 Speaker_01
Is that what the human experience is really about? or is it that we're getting more modular? We're getting more segregated in terms of this area, talking to this area in this particular way.

00:44:25 Speaker_01
Feel free to explore this in any way that feels meaningful or to say pass if it's not a good question.

00:44:30 Speaker_03
No, it's a great question. I mean, you have all these great questions, and we don't have complete answers yet.

00:44:35 Speaker_03
But specifically with regard to connectivity, if you look at what happens in an infant's brain during the first two years, there's a tremendous amount of new synapses being formed. This is your area, by the way.

00:44:49 Speaker_00
You know more about this than I do.

00:44:52 Speaker_03
But then you prune them. The second phase is that you overabundant synapses and now what you want to do is to prune them. Why would you want to do that? You know, synapses are expensive.

00:45:08 Speaker_03
It takes a lot of energy to activate all of the neurons and the synapses especially, because there's the turnover of the neurotransmitter.

00:45:20 Speaker_03
And so what you want to do is to reduce the amount of energy and only use those synapses that have been proven to be the most important, right? Now, unfortunately, as you get older, you had the pruning slows down, but doesn't go away.

00:45:38 Speaker_03
And so the cortex thins and so forth. So I think it goes in the opposite direction. I think that as you get older, you're losing connectivity, but you retain, interestingly, you retain the old memories.

00:45:53 Speaker_03
The old memories are really rock solid because they were put in when you were young.

00:45:57 Speaker_01
Yeah, the foundation.

00:45:58 Speaker_03
The foundation upon which everything else is built. But it's not totally one way, in the sense that Even as an adult, as you know, you can learn new things, maybe not as quickly. By the way, this is one of the things that surprised me.

00:46:17 Speaker_03
So Barbara and I have looked at the people who really were the benefit of the most. It turns out that the peak of the demographic is 25 to 35. Barbara? Oakley, Oakley. Yeah, she's really the mastermind.

00:46:33 Speaker_03
She's a fabulous educator and background in engineering. But what's going on? So it turns out we aimed our MOOC at kids in high school and college because that's their business. They go every day and they go into work. They have to learn, right?

00:46:54 Speaker_03
That's their business. But in fact, very few of the students are actually, you know, they weren't taking the course. Why should they? They spent all day in the class, right? Why do they want to take another class?

00:47:06 Speaker_01
So this is the learning to learn class.

00:47:10 Speaker_03
Learning how to learn.

00:47:10 Speaker_01
Okay, so you did this with Barbara.

00:47:12 Speaker_03
So I did with Barbara and now 25 to 35, we have this huge peak, huge. So what's going on? Here's what's going on. It's very interesting. So you're 25. You've gone to college. Half the people, by the way, who take the course went to college, right?

00:47:27 Speaker_03
So it's not like, you know, filling in for college. This is like topping it off. But you're in the workforce. you have to learn a new skill. Maybe you have mortgage, maybe you have children, right?

00:47:38 Speaker_03
You can't afford to go off and take a course or get another degree. So you take a MOOC and you discover, you know, I'm not quite as agile as I used to be in terms of learning, but it turns out with our course, you can boost your learning

00:47:58 Speaker_03
And so that even though you're not as, your brain isn't learning as quickly, you can do it more efficiently.

00:48:05 Speaker_01
This is amazing. I wanna take this course. I will take this course. What sort of time commitment is the course? You already pointed out that it's zero cost, which is amazing.

00:48:15 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah, okay. So it's bite-sized videos lasting about 10 minutes each, and there's about 50 or 60 over a course of one month.

00:48:24 Speaker_01
And are you tested or you self-test?

00:48:26 Speaker_03
Yeah, there are tests, there are quizzes, there are tests at the end. And there are forums where you can go and talk to other students. You have questions, we have TAs. And anyone can do this? Anyone in the world.

00:48:38 Speaker_03
In fact, we have people in India, housewives, who say, thank you, thank you, thank you, because I could have never learned about how to be a better learner. And I wish I had known this when I was going to school.

00:48:49 Speaker_01
Why do more people not know about this learning to learn course? As people know, if I get really excited about it or about anything, I'm never going to shut up about it.

00:48:59 Speaker_01
But I'm going to take the course first because I want to understand the guts of it.

00:49:01 Speaker_03
You'll enjoy it. We have like 98% approval. It's just phenomenal. It's sticky.

00:49:08 Speaker_01
Is it math, vocabulary?

00:49:11 Speaker_03
No, no math. We're not teaching anything specific. We're not trying to give you knowledge. We're trying to tell you how to acquire knowledge.

00:49:21 Speaker_03
And how to do that, how to deal with exam anxiety, for example, or how to, you know, we all procrastinate, right? We put things off.

00:49:30 Speaker_01
Nah, no, I'm kidding. We all procrastinate.

00:49:32 Speaker_03
How to avoid that. We teach you how to avoid that.

00:49:35 Speaker_01
Fantastic. Okay. I'm going to skip back a little bit now with the intention of double-clicking on this learning to learn thing. You pointed out that

00:49:47 Speaker_01
in particular in California, but elsewhere as well, there isn't as much procedural practice-based learning anymore. I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. And I'm gonna point out that this is not what I actually believe, but...

00:50:03 Speaker_01
you know, when I was growing up, you had to do your times tables and your division and, you know, and then your fractions and your exponents and, you know, and they build on one another.

00:50:11 Speaker_01
And then at some point, you know, you take courses where you might need like a graphing calculator. To some people, they can be like, what is this?

00:50:20 Speaker_01
But the point being that there were a number of things that you had to learn to implement functions and you learn by doing. you learn by doing.

00:50:28 Speaker_01
Likewise, in physics class, we were attaching things to strings and for macro mechanics and learning that stuff. Okay, and learning from the chalkboard lectures. I can see the value of both, certainly.

00:50:43 Speaker_01
And you explained that the brain needs both to really understand knowledge and how to implement and back and forth.

00:50:50 Speaker_01
But nowadays, you'll hear the argument, well, why should somebody learn how to read a paper map unless it's the only thing available because you have Google Maps?

00:50:58 Speaker_01
Or if they want to do a calculation, they just put it into the top bar function on the internet and boom, out comes the answer. So,

00:51:06 Speaker_01
there is a world where certain skills are no longer required and one could argue that the brain space and activity and time and energy in particular could be devoted to

00:51:23 Speaker_01
learning new forms of knowledge that are going to be more practical in the school and workforce going forward. So how do we reconcile these things?

00:51:32 Speaker_01
I mean, I'm of the belief that the brain is doing math and you and I agree, it's electrical signals and chemical signals and it's doing math and it's running algorithms. I think you convinced us of that, certainly.

00:51:43 Speaker_01
But how are we to discern what we need to learn versus what we don't need to learn in terms of building a brain that's capable of learning the maximum number of things or even enough things so that we can go into this very uncertain future.

00:51:58 Speaker_01
Because as far as you know, and I know there's no, neither of us have a crystal ball. So what is essential to learn? And for those of us that didn't learn certain things in our formal education, what should we learn how to learn?

00:52:12 Speaker_03
Well, this is generational. Okay. So, Technologies provide us with tools. You mentioned the calculator, right? Well, a calculator didn't eliminate the education you need to get in math. But it made certain things easier.

00:52:38 Speaker_03
It made it possible for you to do more things and more accurately. However, interestingly, students in my class often come up with answers that are off by eight orders of magnitude. And that's a huge amount, right?

00:52:53 Speaker_03
It's clear that they didn't key in the calculator properly. But they didn't recognize that it was a fairly It was completely way off the beam because they didn't have a good feeling for the numbers.

00:53:05 Speaker_03
They don't have a good sense of exactly how big it should have been, order of magnitude, basic understanding.

00:53:16 Speaker_03
The benefit is that you can do things faster, better, but then you also lose some of your intuition if you don't have the procedural system in place.

00:53:26 Speaker_01
I'm thinking about a kid that wants to be a musician who uses AI to write a song about a bad breakup that then is, kind of recovered when they find new love.

00:53:40 Speaker_01
And I'm guessing that you could do this today and get a pretty good song out of AI, but would you call that kid a songwriter or a musician? On the face of it, yeah. the AI is helping.

00:53:51 Speaker_01
And then you'd say, well, that's not the same as sitting down with a guitar and trying out different chords and feeling the intonation in their voice.

00:53:58 Speaker_01
But I'm guessing that for people that were on the electric guitar, they were criticizing people on the acoustic guitar. You know, so we have this generational thing where we look back and say, that's not the real thing.

00:54:08 Speaker_01
You need to get the, so what are the key fundamentals is really a critical question.

00:54:12 Speaker_03
Okay, so I'm gonna come back to that because this is how, the way you put it at the beginning, had to do with how your brain is allocating resources. So when you're younger, you can take in things. Your brain is more malleable.

00:54:30 Speaker_03
For example, how good are you on social media?

00:54:36 Speaker_01
Well, I do all my own Instagram and Twitter, and those accounts have grown in proportion to the amount of time I've been doing it. So yeah, I would say pretty good.

00:54:45 Speaker_01
I mean, I'm not the biggest account on social media, but for a science health account, we're doing okay. Thanks to the audience.

00:54:52 Speaker_03
Well, this speaks well for the fact that you've managed to go beyond the generation gap because- I can type with my thumbs, Terry. Okay, there you go. That's a manual skill that you learned.

00:55:05 Speaker_01
That's a new phenomenon in human evolution.

00:55:08 Speaker_03
I couldn't believe it. I saw people doing that and now I can do it too. But the thing is that if you learn how to do that early in life, you're much more good at it. You can move your thumbs much more quickly. Also,

00:55:23 Speaker_03
you can have many more tweets going, what are they called? No, they're not called tweets.

00:55:28 Speaker_01
So on X, I think they still call them tweets because it's hard to verb the letter X. The word X. Elon didn't think of that one. I like X because it's cool.

00:55:37 Speaker_01
It's kind of punk and it's got a black kind of format and it fits with kind of the engineer, like black X, you know, and that's the kind of thing. But yeah, we'll still call them tweets.

00:55:48 Speaker_03
Well, okay, we'll call them tweets. Okay, that's good. But you know, I walk across campus and I see everybody, like half the people are tweeting. or they're doing something with their cell phone. I mean, it's unbelievable.

00:56:01 Speaker_01
It's like- And you have beautiful sunsets at the Salk Institute. We'll put a link to one of them. I mean, it is truly spectacular, awe-inspiring to see a sunset at the Salk Institute.

00:56:12 Speaker_03
Every day is different.

00:56:13 Speaker_01
And everyone's on their phones these days, sad.

00:56:15 Speaker_03
And they're looking down at their phone and they're walking along, even people who are skateboarding. Unbelievable. I mean, you know, it's amazing what the human being can do, you know, when they learn to get into something.

00:56:25 Speaker_03
But what happens is the younger generation picks up whatever technology it is and the brain gets really good at it. And you can pick it up later, but you're not quite as agile, not quite as maybe obsessive.

00:56:37 Speaker_01
It fatigues me, I will point this out, that doing anything on my phone feels fatiguing in a way that reading a paper book or even just writing on a laptop or a desktop computer is fundamentally different. I can do that for many hours.

00:56:51 Speaker_01
If I'm on social media for more than a few minutes, I can literally feel the energy draining out of my body. Interesting. I could do, sprints or deadlifts for hours and not feel the kind of fatigue that I feel from doing social media?

00:57:06 Speaker_03
So, you know, this is fascinating. I'd like to know what's going on in your brain. Why is it, and also I'd like to know from younger people whether they have the same, I think not.

00:57:16 Speaker_03
I think my guess is that they don't feel fatigue because they got into this early enough. And this is actually a very, very, I think that it has a lot to do with, the foundation you put into your brain.

00:57:32 Speaker_03
In other words, things that you learn when you're really young. are foundational and they make things easier, some things easier.

00:57:41 Speaker_01
Yeah, I spent a lot of time in my room as a kid, either playing with Legos or action figures or building fish tanks or reading about fish. I tended to read about things and then do a lot of procedural based activities.

00:57:56 Speaker_01
I would read skateboard magazines and skateboard. I was never one to really just watch a sport and not play it. So that, you know, bridging across these things. So social media to me feels like an energy sink.

00:58:08 Speaker_01
But of course I love the opportunity to be able to teach to people and learn from people at such scale. But at an energetic level, I feel like I don't have a foundation for it.

00:58:17 Speaker_01
It's like, I'm trying to like, like jerry-rig my cognition into doing something that it wasn't designed to do.

00:58:23 Speaker_03
Well, there you go. And it's because you don't have the foundation. You didn't do it when you were younger. And now you have to sort of use the cognitive powers to do a lot of what was being done now in a younger person procedurally.

00:58:37 Speaker_01
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00:59:22 Speaker_01
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00:59:31 Speaker_01
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00:59:38 Speaker_01
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00:59:49 Speaker_01
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01:01:06 Speaker_03
I'm going to tell you something which is going to help all of your listeners. My book, ChatGDP and the Future of AI, I went through and I looked at other people's experiences with ChatGDP. I just wanted to know what people were thinking.

01:01:20 Speaker_03
And I came across, it was an article, I think it was the New York Times, of a technical writer who decided she would spend one month using it to help her write things, her articles. And she said that when she started out,

01:01:36 Speaker_03
you know, at the end of the day, she was drained, completely drained. And it was like, you know, working on a machine, you know, like a tractor or something, you know, you're just struggling, struggling, struggling to get it to work.

01:01:50 Speaker_03
And then she started, said, well, wait a second, you know, what if I treat it like a human being? What if I'm polite instead of, you know, being curt? She said, suddenly,

01:02:06 Speaker_03
I started getting better answers by being polite and, you know, back and forth the way you with a human, you know.

01:02:15 Speaker_01
So saying, could you please give me information about so-and-so.

01:02:17 Speaker_03
Yeah, please, I'm really having trouble. No, you know, that answer you gave me was fabulous. It's exactly what I was looking for. And, you know, now I need you to go on to the next part and help me with that too.

01:02:27 Speaker_03
In other words, the way you talk to a human, right? An assistant.

01:02:31 Speaker_01
Or is it that she was talking to the AI to chat GPT, it sounds like in this case. in the way that her brain was familiar with asking questions to a human.

01:02:41 Speaker_01
In other words, so is the AI learning her and therefore giving her the sorts of answers that are more facile for her to integrate with?

01:02:50 Speaker_03
I think it's both. Well, first of all, the chat GDP is mirroring the way you treat it. It will mirror that back. You treat it like a machine, it will treat you like a machine, okay? Because that's what it's good at. But here's the surprise.

01:03:06 Speaker_03
The surprise is, she said, once I started treating it like a human, at the end of the day, I wasn't fatigued anymore. Why?

01:03:16 Speaker_03
Well, it turns out that all your life you interact with humans in a certain way, and your brain is wired to do that, and it doesn't take any effort.

01:03:26 Speaker_03
And so by treating the chat GDP as if it were a human, you're taking advantage of all the brain circuits in your brain

01:03:35 Speaker_01
This is incredible. And I'll tell you why, because I think many people, not just me, but many people really enjoy social media, learn from it.

01:03:44 Speaker_01
I mean, yesterday I learned a few things that I thought were just fascinating about how we perceive our own identity according to whether or not we're filtering it through the responses of others or whether or not we take a couple of minutes and really just sit and think about how we actually feel about ourselves.

01:03:58 Speaker_01
Very interesting ideas about locus of self-perception and things like that. I also looked at a really cool video of a baby raccoon popping bubbles while standing on its hind limbs. And that was really cool.

01:04:08 Speaker_01
And social media could provide me both those things within a series of minutes. And I was thinking to myself, this is crazy, right? The raccoon is kind of trivial, but it delighted me. And that's not trivial.

01:04:18 Speaker_00
There you go.

01:04:20 Speaker_01
But here's the question.

01:04:23 Speaker_01
Could it be that one of the detrimental aspects of social media is that if we're complimenting one another, or if we are giving hearts, or we're giving thumbs down, or we're in an argument with somebody, or we're doing a clap back, or they're clapping back on us, or dunking as it's called on X.

01:04:44 Speaker_01
that it isn't necessarily the way that we learned to argue. It's not necessarily the way that we learn to engage in healthy dispute.

01:04:52 Speaker_01
And so as a consequence, it feels like, and this is my experience, that certain online interactions feel really good and others feel like they kind of grate on me. Like, because there's almost like an action step that isn't allowed.

01:05:04 Speaker_01
Like you can't fully explain yourself or understand the other person.

01:05:07 Speaker_02
Right.

01:05:08 Speaker_01
And I am somebody who believes in the power of real face-to-face dialogue, or at least on-the-phone dialogue. And I feel the same way about text messaging. I hate text messaging.

01:05:18 Speaker_01
When text messaging first came out, I remember thinking, I was not a kid that passed notes in class. This feels like passing notes in class. In fact, this whole text messaging thing is beneath me. That's how I felt.

01:05:31 Speaker_01
And over the years, of course, I became a text messenger. And it's very useful for certain things, be there in five minutes, running a few minutes late, in my case, that's a common one.

01:05:40 Speaker_01
But I think this notion of what grates on us and as it relates to whether or not it matches our childhood developed template of how our brain works is really key because it touches on something that I definitely want to talk about today that I know you've worked on quite a bit, which is this concept of energy.

01:06:00 Speaker_01
What we're talking about here is energy, not woo biology, woo science, wellness, energy. We're talking about, we only have a finite amount of energy. And years ago, the great Ben Barris sadly passed away.

01:06:12 Speaker_01
Our former colleague and my postdoc advisor came to me one day in the hallway and he stopped me and he said, he called me Andy, like you do. And he said, Andy, how come we get such a rundown of energy as we get older?

01:06:27 Speaker_01
Why am I more tired today than I was 10 years ago? I was like, I don't know, how are you sleeping? He's like, I'm sleeping fine. Ben never slept much in the first place, but he had a ton of energy. And I thought to myself, I don't know.

01:06:39 Speaker_01
Like what is this energy thing that we're talking about? I want to make sure that we close the hatch on this notion of a template neural system that then you either find experiences invigorating or depleting.

01:06:50 Speaker_01
I want to make sure we close the hatch on that, but I want to make sure that we relate it at some point to this idea of energy. And why is it that with each passing year of our life, we seem to have less of it?

01:07:02 Speaker_03
You know, you ask these great questions and I wish that I had great answers.

01:07:06 Speaker_01
Well, so far you really do have great answers. They're certainly novel to me in the sense that I've not heard answers of this sort. So there's a tremendous amount of learning for me today and I know for the audience.

01:07:16 Speaker_01
So, but let's say somebody is 20 years old versus 50 years old versus what should they do? I mean, we need to integrate with the modern world. We also need to relate across generations. Oh yeah, no, this is true, this is true.

01:07:29 Speaker_01
People aren't retiring as much, they're living longer, birth rates are down, but we have to get all get along, as they say.

01:07:36 Speaker_03
So, you know, it is interesting, and I think it's true that we all, as we get older, have less of the, you know, the vigor, if I could use a somewhat different word from energy, we'll come back to that.

01:07:50 Speaker_03
But I think there are some who manage to keep an active life. Something that, again, in our MOOC, we really emphasize.

01:07:59 Speaker_01
Could you explain a MOOC? I think most people won't know what a MOOC is, just for their sake.

01:08:03 Speaker_03
Okay. They've been around for about, actually started at Stanford, Andrew Ng and Daphna Kohler. So, they have a company called Coursera.

01:08:12 Speaker_03
And what happens is that you get professors, and in fact anybody who has knowledge or professional expertise, to give lectures that are available to anybody in the world who have access to the internet.

01:08:24 Speaker_03
And, you know, this is like probably tens of thousands now. Any specialty, history, science, music, you know, you name it.

01:08:36 Speaker_03
There's somebody who's done, you know, who's an expert on that and wants to tell you because they're excited about what they're doing. Okay, so, you know, what we wanted to do was to help people with learning.

01:08:50 Speaker_03
And so part of the problem is that it gets more difficult. It takes more effort as you get older.

01:08:56 Speaker_01
It depletes your vigor more, if we're gonna stay with this language of energy and vigor.

01:09:00 Speaker_03
Yeah, that's right. So let's actually use the word energy.

01:09:03 Speaker_03
As you know, in the cell, there's a physical power plant called the mitochondrion, which is supplying us with ATP, which is the coin of the realm for the cell to be able to operate all of its machinery, right?

01:09:19 Speaker_03
And so one of the things that happens when you get older is that your mitochondrial run down.

01:09:26 Speaker_01
You have fewer of them and they're less efficient.

01:09:29 Speaker_03
That's right, they're less efficient. And actually drugs can do that to you too. They can harm mitochondria.

01:09:35 Speaker_01
Recreational drugs.

01:09:36 Speaker_03
No, the drugs you take for illness. I'm not sure about recreational drugs, but I know it's the case that there are a lot of drugs that people take because they have to, but... But the other thing, and this is something, that's the bad news.

01:09:53 Speaker_03
Here's the good news. The good news is that you can replenish your energy by exercise. Exercise is the best drug you could ever take. It's the cheapest drug you could ever take that can help every organ in your body. It helps, obviously, your heart.

01:10:15 Speaker_03
It helps your brain. It rejuvenates your brain. It helps your immune system. Every single organ system in the body benefits from a regular exercise. I run on the beach every day.

01:10:28 Speaker_03
at the Salk Institute, I can, and I also at the, it's on a Mesa, 340 foot above the, so I go down every day and then I climb up the cliff.

01:10:38 Speaker_01
Yeah, those steps down to Black's Beach are, they're a good workout.

01:10:42 Speaker_03
They are, they are. And so this is something that has kept me active and I do hiking, I went hiking in the Alps this, in last fall. So, this is in September.

01:10:53 Speaker_03
So, this is, I think, something that people really ought to realize is that it's like putting away reserves of energy for when you get older. The more you put away, the better off you are. Here's something else.

01:11:10 Speaker_03
Okay, now this is jumping now to Alzheimer's. So, a study that was done in China many, many years ago, when I first came to La Jolla, San Diego, I heard this from, it was the head of the Alzheimer's program.

01:11:27 Speaker_03
He had done a study in China on onset, and they went and they had three populations, they had peasants who had almost no education, Then they had another group that had high school education and then people who were, you know, advanced education.

01:11:43 Speaker_03
So it turns out that the onset of Alzheimer's was earlier for the people who had no education. And it was the latest for the people who had the most education. Now this is interesting, isn't it? And presumably the genes aren't that different, right?

01:12:00 Speaker_03
I mean, they're all Chinese. So one possibility, and obviously we don't really know why, but one possibility is that the more you exercise your brain with education, the more reserve you have. later in life.

01:12:17 Speaker_01
I believe in the notion, and I don't have a better word for it, maybe you do, or a phrase for it, is of kind of a cognitive velocity. You know, I sometimes will play with this.

01:12:29 Speaker_01
I'll read slowly or I'll see where my default pace of reading is at a given time of day. And then I'll intentionally try and read a little bit faster while also trying to retain the knowledge I'm reading.

01:12:40 Speaker_01
So I'm not just reading the words, I'm trying to absorb the information. And you can feel the energetic demand of that. And then I'll play with it. I'll kind of back off a little bit. and then I'll go forward.

01:12:50 Speaker_01
And I try and find the sweet spot where I'm not reading at the pace that is reflexive, but just a little bit quicker while also trying to retain the information.

01:13:02 Speaker_01
And I learned this when I had a lot of catching up to do at one phase of my educational career. Fortunately, it was pretty early and I was able to catch up on most things. Occasionally things slip through and I have to go back and learn how to learn.

01:13:13 Speaker_01
And if I get anything wrong on the internet, they sure as heck, pointed out and then we go back and learn. And guess what? I'd never forget that because punishment, social punishment is a great signal. So thank you all for keeping me learning.

01:13:30 Speaker_01
But I picked that up from my experience of trying to get good at things like skateboarding or soccer when I was younger.

01:13:38 Speaker_01
There's a certain thing that happens when skateboarding, that was my sport growing up, where it's actually easier to learn something going faster You know, most kids try and learn how to ollie and kickflip standing in the living room on the carpet.

01:13:51 Speaker_01
That's the worst way to learn how to do it. It's all easier going a bit faster than you're comfortable. It's also the case that if you're not paying attention, you can get hurt.

01:14:02 Speaker_01
It's also the case that if you pay too much cognitive attention, you can't perform the motor movements. So there's this sweet spot that eventually I was able to translate into an understanding of when I sit down to read a paper or a news article,

01:14:14 Speaker_01
or even listen to a podcast. There's a pace of the person's voice and then I'll adjust the rate of the audio where I have to engage cognitively. And I know I'm in a mode of retaining the information and learning.

01:14:28 Speaker_01
Whereas if I just go with my reflexive pace, it's rare that I'm in that perfect zone. So I point this out because perhaps it will be useful to people.

01:14:36 Speaker_01
I don't know if it's incorporated into your learning how to learn course, but I do think that there is something which I call kind of cognitive velocity, which is ideal for learning versus kind of leisurely scrolling.

01:14:48 Speaker_01
And this is why I think that social media is detrimental. I think that we train our brain basically to be slow, passive and multi-context cycling through. And unless something is very high salience,

01:15:03 Speaker_01
it kind of makes us kind of fat and lazy, forgive the language, but I'm going to be blunt here, fat and lazy cognitively, unless we make it a point to also engage learning. And my guess is it's tapping into this mitochondrial system.

01:15:16 Speaker_03
Very likely, that's one part of it. By the way, you know, the way that you've adjusted the speed is very interesting because it turns out that stress, you know, everybody thinks, oh, stress is bad, but no, it turns out stress,

01:15:31 Speaker_03
that is transient, that is only for a limited amount of time, that you control, is good for you, is good for your brain, is good for your body. I run intervals on the beach, just the way that you do cognitive intervals when you're reading.

01:15:45 Speaker_03
In other words, I run like hell for about 10 seconds, and then I go to a jog, and I run like hell for another 10 seconds, and it's pushing your body into that. extra gear that helps the muscles.

01:16:00 Speaker_03
The muscles need to know that this is what they've got to put out. And that's where you gain muscle mass, not from just doing the same running pace every day.

01:16:11 Speaker_01
Well, your intellectual and physical vigor is undeniable. I've known you a long time. You've always had a slight forward center of mass in your intellect and even the speed at which you walk, Terry, dare I say. For a Californian, you're a quick walker.

01:16:29 Speaker_01
So that's a compliment, by the way. East coasters know what I'm talking about. And Californians would be like, you know, why not slow down? The reason to not slow down too much for too long is that

01:16:42 Speaker_01
these mitochondrial systems, the energy of the brain and body, as you point out, are very linked.

01:16:47 Speaker_01
And I do think that below a certain threshold, it makes it very hard to come back, just like below a certain threshold, it's hard to exercise without getting very depleted or even injured, that we need to maintain this.

01:16:58 Speaker_01
So perhaps now would be a good time to close the hatch on this issue of how to teach young people. Everyone should take this learning to learn course as a free resource, amazing.

01:17:13 Speaker_01
As it relates to AI, do you think that young people and older people now, I'm 49, so put myself in the older bracket, should be learning how to use AI?

01:17:26 Speaker_03
They are already learning how to use AI. And again, it's just like new technology comes along, who picks up first? It's the younger people. And it's astonishing. They're using it a lot more than I am.

01:17:40 Speaker_03
I use it almost every day, but I know a lot of students who basically, and by the way, it's like any other tool. It's a tool that you need to know how to use it.

01:17:54 Speaker_01
Where do you suggest people start? So I have started using Claude AI. This was suggested to me by somebody expert in AI as an alternative to chat GPT. I don't have anything against chat GPT, but I'll tell you, I really like the,

01:18:13 Speaker_01
It's a bit of a softer beige aesthetic. It feels kind of Apple-like. I like the Apple brand and it gives me answers. Maybe it's the font. Maybe it's the feel. Maybe this goes back to the example you used earlier where I like Claude AI.

01:18:28 Speaker_01
And I'm a big fan of it, and they don't pay me to say this. I have never met them.

01:18:32 Speaker_01
I have no relationship to them, except that it gives me answers in a bullet pointed format that feels very aesthetically easy to transfer that information into my brain or onto a page. So I like Cloud AI, use chat GPT.

01:18:45 Speaker_01
How should people start to explore AI for sake of getting smarter, learning knowledge, just for the sake of knowledge, having fun with it? What's the best way to do that?

01:18:56 Speaker_03
Well, I think exactly what you did, which is there's now dozens and dozens of different chatbots out there. And different people will feel comfortable with one or the other. Chat GDP is the first, so that's why it's kind of taken over a lot of the...

01:19:14 Speaker_03
cognitive space, right? It's become like Kleenex, right? That word. That was why I used it as the first word in my book, because it's iconic.

01:19:24 Speaker_03
But some of them, I have to say that, for example, there are some that are really much better at math than others.

01:19:32 Speaker_02
Such as?

01:19:34 Speaker_03
Google's Gemini recently did some fine tuning with what's called, you know, chain of reasoning. When you reason, you go through a sequence of steps.

01:19:47 Speaker_03
And when you solve a math problem, you go through a sequence of steps of doing, you know, fitting, first finding out what's missing and then adding that. And it went from 20% correct to 80. right, on those problems.

01:20:04 Speaker_01
And as people hear that, they probably think, well, that means 20% wrong still, but could you imagine any human or panel of humans behind a wall where if you asked it a question, and then another question and another question, that it would give you back better than 80% accurate information in a matter of seconds?

01:20:23 Speaker_03
So I think we are, you know, being perhaps a little bit unfair to compare these large language models to the best humans, rather than the average human, right?

01:20:39 Speaker_03
As you said, most people couldn't pass the LSAT, the loss test to get into law school, or MCAT, the test to get into medical school, and GPT has.

01:20:51 Speaker_01
Is there a world now where we take the existing AI, LLMs, these computers basically that can learn like a collection of human brains and send that somehow into the future, right? Give them an imagined future, okay?

01:21:11 Speaker_01
Could we give them outcome A and outcome B and let them forage into future states that we are not yet able to get to, and then harness that knowledge and explore the two different outcomes?

01:21:25 Speaker_01
I think that's perhaps the better question in some sense, because we can't travel back in time. but we can perhaps travel into the future with AI if you provide it different scenarios.

01:21:41 Speaker_01
And you say, unlike a panel of people, panel of experts, medical experts or space travel experts or sea travel experts, you can't say, hey, you know what? Don't sleep tonight. You're just going to work for the next, 48 hours.

01:21:58 Speaker_01
In fact, you're gonna work for the next three weeks or three months. And you know what? You're not gonna do anything else. You're not gonna pay attention to your health.

01:22:05 Speaker_01
You're not gonna do anything else, but you can take a large language model and you can say, just forage for knowledge under the following different scenarios, and then have that fleet of large language models come back and give us the information like, I don't know, tomorrow.

01:22:22 Speaker_03
Okay, so I've lived through this myself. Back in the 1980s, I was just starting my career, and I was one of the pioneers in developing learning algorithms for neural network models.

01:22:33 Speaker_03
Jeff Hinton and I collaborated together on something called the Bosal Machine, and he actually won a Nobel Prize for this recently.

01:22:39 Speaker_00
Yeah, just this year.

01:22:39 Speaker_03
Yeah, he's one of my best friends. Brilliant, and he well deserved it for not just the Bosal Machine, but all the work he's done since then on machine learning and then back propagation and so forth. But back then,

01:22:56 Speaker_03
We, Jeff and I, had this view of the future. AI was dominated by symbol processing, rules, logic, writing computer programs. For every problem, you need a different computer program.

01:23:08 Speaker_03
And it was very human resource intensive to write programs so that it was very, very slow going. And they never actually got there.

01:23:18 Speaker_03
They never wrote a program for vision, for example, even though the computer vision community really worked hard for a long time. But we had this view of the future. We had this view that nature has solved these problems.

01:23:30 Speaker_03
There's existence proof that you can solve the vision problem. Look, every animal can see, even insects, right? Come on. Let's figure out how they did it. Maybe we can help by following up on nature. Again, going back to algorithms, I was telling you.

01:23:47 Speaker_03
And so in the case of the brain, what makes it different from a digital computer, digital computers basically can run any program, but a fly brain, for example, only runs the program that it's a special purpose hardware allows it to run.

01:24:00 Speaker_01
Not much neuroplasticity.

01:24:02 Speaker_03
There's enough there, just enough habituation and so forth so that you can.

01:24:07 Speaker_01
Survive, and this is- Survive 24 hours. I'm not trying to be disparaging to the fly biologist, but when I think of neuroplasticity, I think of the magnificent neuroplasticity of the human brain to customize to a world of experience.

01:24:19 Speaker_01
I agree, but- When I think about a fly, I think about a really cool set of neural circuits that work really well to avoid getting swatted, to eating, and to reproducing, and not a whole lot else. They don't really build technology.

01:24:34 Speaker_01
They might have interesting relationships, but who knows, who cares? It's just sort of like, it's not that it doesn't matter. It's just a question of the lack of plasticity makes them kind of a meh species.

01:24:47 Speaker_03
Okay, I can see I've pressed your button here.

01:24:49 Speaker_01
No, no, no, no. I love fly biology. They taught us about algorithms for direction selectivity in the visual system. Oh no, no. I love the Drosophila biology. I just think that the lack of neuroplasticity, it reveals a certain like key limitation.

01:25:02 Speaker_01
And the reason we're the curators of the earth is because we have so much plasticity.

01:25:06 Speaker_03
Of course, of course. But you have to, you know, one step at a time. Nature first has to be able to create creatures that can survive and then, you know, their brains get bigger as the environment gets more complex and, you know, here we are.

01:25:21 Speaker_03
But the key is that It turns out that certain algorithms in the fly brain are present in our brain, like conditioning, classical conditioning.

01:25:32 Speaker_03
You can classical condition a fly in terms of, you know, training it to when you give it a reward, it will produce the same action, right? This is like conditioned behavior.

01:25:43 Speaker_03
And that algorithm that I told you about that is in your value function, right? Temporal difference learning, that algorithm is in the fly brain, it's in your brain. So we can learn about learning from many species.

01:25:56 Speaker_01
Okay. I was just having a little fun poking at the fly biologist. I actually think Drosophila has done a great deal as has honeybee biology. For instance, if you give caffeine to bees on particular flowers.

01:26:08 Speaker_01
They'll actually try and pollinate those flowers more because they actually like the feeling of being caffeinated. There's a bad pun about a buzz here, but I'm not going to make that pun because everyone's done it before.

01:26:18 Speaker_01
No, I fully absorb and agree with the value of studying simpler organisms to find the algorithms.

01:26:27 Speaker_03
Right, that's where we are right now. But just go into the future now. I'm telling the story about where we were. We were predicting the future. We were saying, this is an alternative to traditional AI. We were not taken seriously.

01:26:43 Speaker_03
Everybody was, experts said, no, no, write programs, write programs. They were getting all the resources, the grants, the jobs. And we were just like the little furry mammals under the feet of these dinosaurs, right? In retrospect. I love the analogy.

01:26:58 Speaker_03
But the dinosaurs died off. But the point I'm making is that it's possible for our brain to make these extrapolations into the future. Why not AI versions of brains? Why not? I think your idea is a great one.

01:27:14 Speaker_01
I mean, the reason I'm excited about AI and increasingly so across the course of this conversation is because there are very few opportunities to forage information at such large scale and around the circadian clock.

01:27:34 Speaker_01
I mean, if there's one thing that we are truly a slave to as humans is the circadian biology. You got to sleep sooner or later. And even if you don't, your cognition really waxes and wanes across the circadian cycle.

01:27:46 Speaker_01
And if you don't, you're going to die early. We know this. Computers can work, work, work. Sure, you got to power them. There's the cooling thing. There are a bunch of things related to that, but that's tractable. So computers can work, work, work.

01:28:03 Speaker_01
And the idea that they can provide a portal into the future and that they can just bring it back so we can take a look-see. I'm not saying we have to implement their advice, but to be able to send a panel of

01:28:18 Speaker_01
diverse, computationally diverse, experientially diverse. AI experts into the future and bring us back a panel of potential routes to take, to me is so exciting. Maybe a good example would be like treatments for schizophrenia.

01:28:37 Speaker_01
This is an area that I want to make sure that we talk about.

01:28:40 Speaker_01
You know, I grew up learning as a neuroscience student that schizophrenia was somehow a disruption of the dopamine system, because if you give neuroleptic drugs that block dopamine receptors, that you get some improvement

01:28:53 Speaker_01
in the motor symptoms and some of the hallucinations, et cetera. You now also have people who say, no, that's not really the basis of schizophrenia. I'd love your thoughts.

01:29:01 Speaker_01
And you have incredible work from people like Chris Palmer at Harvard, and we even have a department at Stanford now.

01:29:07 Speaker_01
focusing, we even have people at Stanford now focusing on what Chris really founded as a field, which is metabolic psychiatry, the idea that who could imagine, I'm being sarcastic here, what you eat impacts your mitochondria, how you exercise impacts your mitochondria, mitochondria impacts brain function, and lo and behold,

01:29:25 Speaker_01
metabolic health of the brain and body impacts schizophrenia symptoms. And he's looked at ways that people can use ketogenic diet, maybe not to cure, but to treat and in some cases, maybe even cure schizophrenia.

01:29:36 Speaker_01
So here we are at this place where we still don't have a quote unquote cure for schizophrenia, but you could send

01:29:43 Speaker_01
LLMs into the future and start to forage the most likely, all of the data in those fields, probably could do that in an hour, plus come up with a bunch of hypothesized different positive and negative result clinical trials that don't even exist yet.

01:30:01 Speaker_01
10,000 subjects in Scandinavia who, you know, go on ketogenic diet, who have a certain level of susceptibility to schizophrenia based on what we know from twin studies, things that never, ever, ever would be possible to do in an afternoon, maybe even in a year.

01:30:19 Speaker_01
There's isn't funding. boom, get the answers back and let them present us those answers. And then you say, well, it's artificial, but so are human brains coming up with these experiments.

01:30:30 Speaker_01
So to me, I'm starting to realize that it's not that we have to implement everything that AI tells us or offers us, but it sure as hell gives us a great window into what might be happening or is likely to happen.

01:30:43 Speaker_03
But specifically for schizophrenia, I'm pretty sure that if we had these large language models 20 years ago, we would have known back then that ketamine would have been a really good drug to try to help these people.

01:30:56 Speaker_01
Tell us about the relationship between ketamine and schizophrenia. Okay.

01:30:59 Speaker_01
Because I think a lot of people, and maybe you could define schizophrenia, even though most people think about people hearing voices and psychosis, there's a bit more to it that maybe we just,

01:31:09 Speaker_03
Okay, so one of the things now that we know, see, the problem is that if you look at the endpoint, that doesn't tell you what started the problem. It started early in development, you know, schizophrenia.

01:31:24 Speaker_03
is something that appears when, you know, late adolescence, early adulthood, but it actually is already a problem, a genetic problem from the get-go.

01:31:35 Speaker_01
So what is the concordance in identical twins? Meaning if you have one identical twin, if you have identical twins in the womb, and one is destined to be full-blown schizophrenic, What's the probability the other will be?

01:31:46 Speaker_03
So here's the experiment. This has been replicated many, many times in mice, I should say. Oh no, actually, let me start with a human.

01:31:57 Speaker_03
So ketamine was for a long time, and it still is a party drug, special K. I've never taken it, but this is what I hear.

01:32:06 Speaker_01
It's a dissociative anesthetic.

01:32:08 Speaker_03
But I'll tell you what happens, because I've talked to these people who have done this, You take ketamine, by the way, it's an anesthetic. It's given to children. It's a pretty good anesthetic, and it's also used in veterinary medicine.

01:32:21 Speaker_03
But in any case, you give it to, you take young adults, here's what they experience. They experience out-of-body experience. They have this wonderful feeling of energy, and they're very, it's a high, but it's a very unusual high.

01:32:43 Speaker_03
Now, you know, if they just go and have one experience, but if they have two, like they party two days in a row, a lot of them come into the Immersion Zero. And here's what the symptoms are. Full-blown psychosis. Full-blown.

01:33:03 Speaker_03
We're talking about, you know, indistinguishable. from a schizophrenic break.

01:33:08 Speaker_01
So auditory hallucinations.

01:33:09 Speaker_03
Yeah, auditory hallucinations, paranoia, very, very advanced. You'd say that, my God, this person here has become a schizophrenic. And this is really, like you say, the symptoms are the same.

01:33:27 Speaker_03
However, if you isolate them for a couple of days, they'll come back. So it means that ketamine can induce a form of schizophrenia, psychosis, temporarily, not permanently fortunately. Okay, so what does it attack?

01:33:45 Speaker_03
And there's another literature on this. It turns out that it binds to a form of receptor, a glutamate receptor, called NMDA receptors, which are very important, by the way, for learning and memory.

01:33:56 Speaker_03
But we know the target and we also know what the acute outcome is. reduces the strength of the inhibitory circuit, the interneurons that use inhibitory transmitters. The enzyme that creates the inhibitory transmitter is downregulated.

01:34:15 Speaker_03
And what does that do? It means that there's more excitation. And what does that mean when there's more excitation?

01:34:20 Speaker_03
It means that there's more activity in the cortex, and there's actually much more vigor, and you start becoming crazy, right, if it's too much activity. So, this is interesting.

01:34:33 Speaker_03
So, this is telling us, I think, that we should be thinking about... And now there's a whole field now in psychiatry that has to do with the glutamate hypothesis for the first... where the actual... imbalance first occurs.

01:34:52 Speaker_03
It's an imbalance between the excitatory inhibitory systems that are in the cortex keep you in balance.

01:34:58 Speaker_01
And NMDA and methyl D-aspartate receptors are glutamate receptors. Yes, they are. They're one class.

01:35:04 Speaker_03
That's one class, that's right. Okay, so now, Here is a hypothesis for why ketamine might be good for depression. People are taking it now who are depressed, right?

01:35:18 Speaker_03
So here you have a drug that causes overexcitation and here you have a person who is underexcited. Depression is associated with lower excitatory activity in some parts of the cortex. Well, if you titrate it, you can come back into balance, right?

01:35:36 Speaker_03
So what you do is you fight depression with schizophrenia, a touch of schizophrenia.

01:35:44 Speaker_03
Now, you have to keep giving, I think once every three weeks, they have to have a new dose of ketamine, but it's helped an enormous number of people with very, very severe clinical depression.

01:35:55 Speaker_03
So as we learn more about the mechanisms underlying some of these disorders, the better we are going to be extrapolating and coming up with some solutions at least to prevent it from getting worse.

01:36:09 Speaker_03
By the way, I'm pretty sure that the large language models could have figured this out long ago.

01:36:15 Speaker_01
in an attempt to understand how we might be able to leverage these large language models now, how would we have used these large language models long ago?

01:36:24 Speaker_01
Let's say you had 2024 AI technology in 19, let's have fun here, 1998, the year that I started graduate school. At that time, it was like the dopamine hypothesis is schizophrenia was in every textbook.

01:36:41 Speaker_01
There was a little bit about glutamate, perhaps, but it was all about dopamine. So how would the large language models have discovered this? Ketamine was known as a drug. Ketamine, by the way,

01:36:55 Speaker_01
is very similar to PCP, fencyclidine, which also binds the NMDA receptor. So how would- Which is also a part of- Which is also, yeah, not one I recommend, nor ketamine.

01:37:08 Speaker_01
Frankly, I don't recommend any recreational drugs, but I'm not a recreational drug guy. But what would those large language models do if they, so you've got 2024 technology placed into 1998, they're foraging for existing knowledge,

01:37:23 Speaker_01
but then are they able to make predictions?

01:37:26 Speaker_03
Like, hey, this stuff is gonna turn out to be wrong, or hey, this stuff is- Okay, you know, this is all very, very speculative and really we can begin actually to see this happening now. So I have a colleague at the Salk Institute, Rusty Gage.

01:37:47 Speaker_03
very distinguished neuroscientist. And he was one of the, he discovered that there are new neurons being born in the hippocampus, right? Which is something in adults, which is something that in a textbook says that doesn't happen, right?

01:38:01 Speaker_01
So- That was around 1998. Yeah, yeah, right.

01:38:03 Speaker_03
That's right. And I actually have a paper with him where we tested LTP, long-term potentiation. Actually, the effects of exercise on neurogenesis.

01:38:15 Speaker_01
Exercise increases neurogenesis.

01:38:17 Speaker_03
It increases the cells, it increases neurogenesis and also the cells that are active become part of the circuit. More cells become integrated.

01:38:28 Speaker_01
And this is true in humans as well, right?

01:38:30 Speaker_03
Yeah, and there was some cancer drug that was given that, you know, that they showed that there were new cells that they were able to, later in postmortem, to actually see that they were born in the adult.

01:38:42 Speaker_03
Okay, so here we are, okay, in 1998, and the question is, can you jump? Can you jump into the future? Okay, so Rusty, We happened to talk about this issue about, he's using these large language models now for his research.

01:39:08 Speaker_03
I said, oh, wow, how do you use it? And he said, we use it as an idea pump. What do you mean idea pump? Well, we give it all of the experiments that we've done. And we have the literature, it's access to the literature and so forth.

01:39:25 Speaker_03
And we ask it for ideas for new experiments.

01:39:27 Speaker_01
Oh, I love it. I love it. I was on a plane where I sat next to a guy that works at Google. And he's one of the main people there in terms of voice to text. and text to voice software.

01:39:43 Speaker_01
And he showed me something, I'll provide a link to it, cause it's another one of these open resource things. And I'm not super techie, I'm not like the, I don't get an F in technology, I don't get an A plus, I'm kind of in the middle.

01:39:54 Speaker_01
So I think I'm pretty representative of the average listener for this podcast, presumably. And what he showed me is that you can take, you open up this website and you can take PDFs,

01:40:04 Speaker_01
Or you take URLs, so websites, website addresses, and you just place them in the margin. You literally just drag and drop them there. And then you can ask questions.

01:40:16 Speaker_01
And the AI will generate answers that are based on the content of whatever you put into this margin, those PDFs, those websites. And the cool thing is it references them so you know which article it came from.

01:40:30 Speaker_01
And then you can start asking it more sophisticated questions like, In the two examples of the effects of a drug, one being very strong and one being very weak, which of these papers do you think is more rigorous?

01:40:48 Speaker_01
based on subject number, but also kind of the strength of the findings. You know, a pretty vague thing. Strength of findings is pretty vague, right?

01:40:56 Speaker_01
Anyone that argues those are weak findings, those aren't enough subjects, well, we know a hell of a lot about human memory from one patient, HM. So strength of findings when people, is a subjective thing.

01:41:08 Speaker_01
You really have to be an expert in a field to understand strength of findings and even that. And what's amazing is it starts giving back answers

01:41:15 Speaker_01
Like, well, if you're concerned about number of subjects, this paper, but that's a pretty obvious one, which one had more subjects, but it can start critiquing these statistics that they used in these papers in very sophisticated ways and explain back to you why certain papers may not be interesting and others are more interesting.

01:41:36 Speaker_01
And it starts to weight the evidence.

01:41:38 Speaker_00
Oh my God.

01:41:39 Speaker_01
And then you say, well, with that weighted evidence, can you, hypothesize what would happen if. And so I've done a little bit of this where it starts trying to predict the future based on 10 papers that you gave it five minutes ago.

01:41:52 Speaker_03
Amazing.

01:41:53 Speaker_01
I don't think any professor could do that except in their very specific area of interest. And if they were already familiar with the papers and it would take them many hours, if not days to read all those papers in detail.

01:42:06 Speaker_03
And they might not actually come up with the same answers, right? Right. Actually, this is something that is happening in medicine, by the way. For doctors who are using AI as an assistant, this is really interesting.

01:42:22 Speaker_03
And this is dermatology, it was a paper in Nature. Skin lesions, there's 2,000 skin lesions. Some of them are cancerous and others are benign.

01:42:36 Speaker_03
And so in any case, they tested the expert doctors and then they tested an AI and they were both doing about, you know, 90%, right? However, if you let the doctor use the AI, it boosts the doctor to 98%.

01:42:51 Speaker_01
98% accuracy.

01:42:53 Speaker_03
Yes. And what's going on there? It's very interesting. So it turns out that Although they got the same 90%, they had different expertise that the AI had access to more data.

01:43:06 Speaker_03
And so it could look at the lesions that were rare that the doctor may never have seen. But the doctor has more in-depth knowledge of the most common ones that he's seen over and over again, and knows the subtleties and so forth.

01:43:19 Speaker_03
But so putting them together, it makes so much sense that they're going to improve if they work together.

01:43:26 Speaker_03
And I think that now what you're saying is that using AI as a tool for discovery with the expert who is interpreting and looking at the arguments, the statistical arguments, and also looking at the paper maybe in a new way,

01:43:46 Speaker_03
Maybe that's the future of science. Maybe that's what's going to happen. Everybody's worried about, oh, AI is going to replace us. It's going to be much better than we are at everything. And humans are obsolete. Nothing could be further from the case.

01:43:59 Speaker_03
Our strengths and weaknesses are different. And by working together, it's going to strengthen both you know, what we do and what AI does, and it's going to be a partnership. It's not going to be adversarial. It's going to be a partnership.

01:44:17 Speaker_01
Would you say that's the case for things like understanding or discovering treatments for neurologic illness, for avoiding, you know, large scale catastrophes, like can it predict, macro movements. Let me give an example.

01:44:39 Speaker_01
Here in Los Angeles, there's occasionally an accident on the freeway. You have a lot of cameras over freeways nowadays. You have cameras in cars. You can imagine all of the data being sent in in real time. And you could probably predict accidents.

01:44:55 Speaker_01
pretty easily. I mean, these are just moving objects, right? At a specific rate, who's driving haphazardly, but you could also potentially signal takeover of the brakes or the steering wheel of a car and prevent accidents.

01:45:07 Speaker_01
I mean, certain cars already do that, but could you essentially eliminate, well, let's do something even more important. Let's eliminate traffic. I don't know if you can do that, but, cause that's a funnel problem, but,

01:45:22 Speaker_01
Could you predict physical events in the world into the future?

01:45:26 Speaker_03
Okay, this has already been done, not for traffic, but for hurricanes. So, as you know, the weather is extremely difficult to predict. And except here in California, where it's always going to be sunny.

01:45:44 Speaker_03
But now, what they've done is to feed a lot of previous data from previous hurricanes and also simulations of hurricanes. You can simulate them in a supercomputer. It takes days and weeks.

01:46:00 Speaker_03
So it's not very useful for actually accurately predicting where it's going to hit Florida. But what they did was, after training up the AI,

01:46:10 Speaker_03
on all of this data, it was able to predict with much better accuracy exactly where in Florida it's going to make landfall. And it does that on your laptop in 10 minutes.

01:46:25 Speaker_01
Incredible. So something just clicked for me and it's probably obvious to you and to most people, but I think this is true. I think what I'm about to say is true. At the beginning of our conversation, we were talking about

01:46:39 Speaker_01
the acquisition of knowledge versus the implementation of knowledge, just learning facts versus learning how to implement those facts in the form of physical action or cognitive action, right? Math problem is cognitive action, physical action, okay.

01:46:53 Speaker_01
AI can do both knowledge acquisition, it can learn facts, long lists of facts and combinations of facts, but presumably it can also run a lot of problem sets and solve a lot of problem sets.

01:47:06 Speaker_01
I don't think except with some crude still to me examples of robotics that it's very good at action yet, but it will probably get there at some point. Robots are getting better, but they're not doing what we're doing yet. But it seems to me that

01:47:25 Speaker_01
as long as they can acquire knowledge and then solve different problem sets, different iterations of combinations of knowledge that basically they are in a position to take any data about prior events or current events and make pretty darn good predictions about the future and run those back to us quickly enough.

01:47:47 Speaker_01
and to themselves quickly enough that they could play out the different iterations.

01:47:51 Speaker_01
And so I'm thinking, you know, one of the problems that seems to have really vexed neuroscientists and the field of medicine and the general public has been like the increase in the, at least diagnosis of autism.

01:48:05 Speaker_01
I've heard so many different hypotheses over the years. I think we're still pretty much in the fog on this one. Could AI start to come up with new and potential solutions and treatments if they're necessary, but maybe get to the heart of this problem?

01:48:22 Speaker_03
It might. And it depends on the data you have. It depends on the complexity of the disease. But it will happen. In other words, we will use those tools the best we can.

01:48:35 Speaker_03
Because obviously, if you can make any progress at all and jump into the future, wow, that would save lives. That would help so many people out there.

01:48:45 Speaker_03
I really think the promise here is so great that even though there are flaws and there are regulatory problems, we really, really have to really push

01:48:56 Speaker_03
And we have to do that in a way that is going to help people in terms of making their jobs better and helping them solve problems that otherwise they would have had difficulty with and so forth. And it's beginning to happen, but these are early days.

01:49:19 Speaker_03
So we're at a stage right now it with AI that is similar to what happened after the first flight of the Wright Brothers. In other words- It's that significant.

01:49:32 Speaker_03
The achievement that the Wright Brothers made was to get off the ground 10 feet and to power forward with a human being 100 feet, right? That was it, that was the first flight. And it took an enormous amount of improvements.

01:49:46 Speaker_03
The most difficult thing that had to be solved was control. How do you control it? How do you make it go in the direction you want it to go? And shades of what's happening now in AI is that we are off the ground.

01:49:59 Speaker_03
We're not going very far yet, but who knows where it will take us into the future.

01:50:05 Speaker_01
Let's talk about Parkinson's disease, a depletion of dopamine neurons that leads to difficulty in smooth movement generation and also some cognitive and mood-based dysfunction. Tell us about your work on Parkinson's and what did you learn?

01:50:26 Speaker_03
So as you point out, Parkinson's is first a degenerative disease. It's very interesting because The dopamine cells are a particular part of the brain, the brainstem, and they are the ones that are responsible for procedural learning.

01:50:44 Speaker_03
I told you before about temporal difference. It's dopamine cells. And it's a very powerful way for the, it's a global signal, it's called a neuromodulator because it modulates all the other signals taking place throughout the cortex.

01:51:00 Speaker_03
And also, it's very important for learning sequences of actions that produce survival for survival. But the problem is that with certain environmental insults, especially toxins like pesticides,

01:51:27 Speaker_03
Those neurons are very vulnerable, and when they die, you get all of the symptoms that you just described. The people who have lost those cells, actually before the treatment, L-DOPA, which is a dopamine precursor, they actually became comatose.

01:51:49 Speaker_03
They didn't move. They were still alive, but they just didn't move at all. It's tragic. Locked in, it's called. Yeah, it's tragic, tragic. So when the first trials of L-DOPA were given to them, it was magical because suddenly they started talking again.

01:52:11 Speaker_01
So, I mean, this is amazing, amazing. I'm curious, when they started talking again, did they report that their brain state during the locked in phase was slow velocity?

01:52:21 Speaker_01
Like, was it sort of like a dreamlike state or they felt like they were in a nap or were they in there like screaming to get out? Because their physical velocity obviously was zero. They're locked in after all.

01:52:33 Speaker_01
And I've long wondered when coming back from a run or, from waking up from a great night's sleep when I shift into my waking state, whether or not physical velocity and cognitive velocity are linked.

01:52:47 Speaker_03
Okay, that's a wonderful observation or a question. I'll bet you know the answer. Okay, here's something that is really amazing.

01:52:55 Speaker_03
It was discovered, interestingly, when they tend to move slowly, as you said, but to them, cognitively, they think they're moving fast. Now, it's not because they can't move fast, because you can say, well, can you move faster? Sure.

01:53:13 Speaker_03
And they move normal, right? But to them, they think they're moving at super velocities.

01:53:18 Speaker_01
So it's a set point issue.

01:53:20 Speaker_03
So it's a set point issue. Yes, it's all about set points. That's what's really going on. And as the set point gets further and further down, without moving at all, they think they're moving, right? I mean, this is what's going on.

01:53:33 Speaker_03
By the way, you can ask them, what was it like? We were talking to you and you didn't respond. Oh, I didn't feel like it.

01:53:40 Speaker_01
The brain confabulates an answer.

01:53:42 Speaker_03
They have, well, that they confabulated it because they didn't have enough energy or they couldn't initiate, they couldn't initiate actions. That's one of the things that they have trouble with, with movements, you know, starting a movement.

01:53:56 Speaker_01
Yeah, as you can tell, I'm fascinated by this notion of cognitive velocity. And again, there may be a better or more accurate or official language for it, but, I feel like it encompasses so much of what we try to do when we learn.

01:54:11 Speaker_01
And the fact that during sleep, you have these very vivid dreams during rapid eye movement sleep. So cognitive velocity is very fast. Time perception is different than in slow wave sleep dreams.

01:54:22 Speaker_01
And I really think there's something to it as at least one metric that relates to brain state. I've long thought that we know so much more about brain states during sleep than we do about wakeful brain states.

01:54:35 Speaker_01
Like we talk about focus, motivated, flow. I mean, these are not scientific terms. I'm not being disparaging of them. They're pretty much all we've got until we come up with something better.

01:54:46 Speaker_01
But like we're biologists and neuroscientists and computational neuroscientists in your case. And we're like trying to figure out like what brain state are we in right now? Our cognitive velocity is a certain value.

01:54:58 Speaker_01
But I think the more that people think about this, I'll venture to say that the more that they think a little bit about their cognitive velocity at different times of day, you start to notice that there's a, tends to be a few times a day.

01:55:10 Speaker_01
For me, it tends to be. early to late mid morning. And then again, in the evening, after a little bit of trough and energy, that boy, that hour and a half each, like that's the time to get real work done.

01:55:25 Speaker_01
Because I can mentally sprint far at those times. But there are other times of day when I don't care how much caffeine I drink. I don't care, unless it's a stressful event that I need to meet the demands of that stress.

01:55:41 Speaker_01
I just can't, I can't get to that faster pace while I'm also engaging. You can read faster, you can listen, but you're not using the information. You're not storing the information. What times of day for you are?

01:55:53 Speaker_03
No, I get most done in the morning. And then you're right, later after dinner, is also different though. I think in the morning I'm better at creative stuff. And then I think that in the evening I'm better at actually just cranking it out, you know.

01:56:15 Speaker_01
Interesting. Given the relationship between a body temperature and circadian rhythm, I would like to run an experiment that relates core body temperature to cognitive velocity.

01:56:27 Speaker_03
I've actually noticed This is something that is just purely subjective, but the temperature of the salt inside the building is kept 75. It's like, you know, it's rock solid. But in the afternoon, I feel a little chilly. It's probably my internal.

01:56:48 Speaker_00
Sure. Body temperature. Body temperature.

01:56:50 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's probably going down. And that may correspond to the loss of energy, the amount of the ability for the brain and everything else. By the way, you know, this is Q10, this is a jargon. Every single enzyme in your every cell,

01:57:07 Speaker_03
it can go at different rates depending on the temperature, right? And so, yeah, so if the body temperature is doing this, then all the cells are doing this too, right? So this is, it's an explanation. I'm not sure if it's the right one, but.

01:57:19 Speaker_01
Yeah, Craig Heller, my colleague at Stanford in the biology department,

01:57:23 Speaker_01
has beautifully described how the enzymatic control over pyruvate, I believe it is, controls muscular failure, that local muscular failure, you know, when people are trying to move some resistance, has everything to do with the temperature, the local temperature.

01:57:40 Speaker_01
that shuts down certain enzymatic processes that don't allow the muscles to contract the same way. You know, he knows the details and he covered them on this podcast. I'm forgetting the details.

01:57:50 Speaker_01
You start to go, wow, like these enzymes are so beautifully controlled by temperature.

01:57:55 Speaker_01
And of course his laboratory is focused on ways to bypass those temperature or to change temperature locally in order to bypass those limitations and have shown them again and again. It's just incredible.

01:58:07 Speaker_01
I hear we're speculating about what it would mean for cognitive velocity, but I think it's such a different world to think about the underlying biology as opposed to just thinking about like a drug.

01:58:18 Speaker_01
You increase dopamine and norepinephrine and epinephrine, the so-called catecholamines, and you're going to increase energy focus and alertness, but you're going to pay the price.

01:58:26 Speaker_01
You're going to have a trough in energy focus and alertness that's proportional to how much greater it was when you took the drug.

01:58:32 Speaker_03
Boy, amphetamines are a good example. Boy, you're going a mile a minute. when you're taking the drug, of course, you know, it's, I fully understand that that's your impression. And the reality is you don't actually accomplish that much more.

01:58:49 Speaker_01
Have any LLMs, so AI been used to answer this really pressing question of what is going to be the consequence on cognition for these young brains that have been weaned while taking Ritalin, Adderall, Vyvanse and other stimulants?

01:59:04 Speaker_01
Because we have millions of kids that have been raised this way.

01:59:07 Speaker_03
We've done this experiment on our whole cadre, a whole generation. And I really would like to know the answer. I wonder if anybody's studying it. That's really a great question.

01:59:18 Speaker_03
Because we gave them speed effectively, the drug that causes the brain to be activated. But by the way, the consequence is that when it wears off, have no energy, right? You just completely spent.

01:59:38 Speaker_01
That's it. That's the pit. That's the pit.

01:59:40 Speaker_03
And so, but that's why you take more of it. You see, that's the problem is it's a spiral.

01:59:49 Speaker_01
I love how today you're making it so very clear how computation, how math and computers and AI now are really shaping the way that we think about these biological problems, which are also psychological problems, which are also daily challenges.

02:00:04 Speaker_01
I also love that we touched on mitochondria and how to replenish mitochondria. I want to make sure that we talk about a couple of things that I know are in the back of people's minds, no pun intended here, which are consciousness and free will.

02:00:19 Speaker_01
Normally, I don't like to talk about these things, not because they're sensitive, but because I find the discussions around them typically to be more philosophical than neurobiological, and they tend to be pretty circular.

02:00:32 Speaker_01
And so, you get people like Kevin Mitchell, who's a real, I think he has a book about free will, he believes in free will. You've got people like Robert Sapolsky, who wrote the book Determined, he doesn't believe in free will.

02:00:45 Speaker_01
How do you feel about free will? And is it even a discussion that we should be having?

02:00:49 Speaker_03
Well, if you go back 500 years, you know, it's the middle ages. The concept didn't exist, or at least not in the way we use it. Because everybody, it was the way that humans felt about the world.

02:01:07 Speaker_03
you know, the world and how it worked and its impact on them was that it's all fate.

02:01:14 Speaker_03
They had this concept of fate, which is that there's nothing you can do that something is going to happen to you because of what's going on in the gods above or whatever it is, right? You attribute it to the physical forces around you that caused it.

02:01:33 Speaker_03
not to your own free will, not to something that caused this to happen to you, right?

02:01:39 Speaker_03
So I think that these words that, by the way, that we use, free will, consciousness, intelligence, understanding, they're weasel words because you can't pin them down. There is no definition of consciousness that everybody agrees on.

02:01:56 Speaker_03
It's tough to solve a problem scientific problem if you don't have a definition that you can agree on. And, you know, there's this big controversy about whether these large language models understand language or not, right? The way we do.

02:02:16 Speaker_03
And what it really is revealing is we don't understand what understanding is. Literally, we don't have a really good argument or measure that you can measure someone's understanding and then apply it to the GDP and see whether it's the same.

02:02:33 Speaker_03
It probably isn't exactly the same, but maybe there's some continuum here we're talking about, right? You know, the way I look at it, you know, it's as if an alien suddenly landed on earth and started talking to us in English, right?

02:02:56 Speaker_03
And the only thing we could be sure of was that it's not human.

02:03:00 Speaker_01
I met some people that I wondered about. their terrestrial origins.

02:03:05 Speaker_03
Okay. Well, okay. Now there's a big diversity amongst humans too.

02:03:09 Speaker_01
You're right about that. Yeah, yeah. Certain colleagues of ours at UCSD years ago, one in particular in the physics department who I absolutely adore as a human being, just had such an unusual pattern of speech.

02:03:23 Speaker_01
of behavior, totally appropriate behavior, but just unusual. In the middle of a faculty meeting, would just kind of turn to me and start talking while the other person was presenting. And I was like, maybe not now. And he would say, oh, okay.

02:03:39 Speaker_01
But in any other domain, you'd say he was very socially adept. And so, you know, there's certain people that just kind of discard with convention and you kind of want to like, is he an alien? It's kind of cool, you know, in a cool way.

02:03:49 Speaker_01
Like, you know, he's one of my, again, a friend and somebody I really delight in. It's true, it's true.

02:03:53 Speaker_03
You know, not everybody has adopted the same social conventions. You know, it could be a touch of autism.

02:04:02 Speaker_01
I mean, yeah.

02:04:03 Speaker_03
That's a problem that, I mean, in other words, there are very high functioning autistic people out there.

02:04:08 Speaker_01
He's brilliant.

02:04:09 Speaker_03
And often they are, you know, it's, there are high people who are brilliant that with autism, but, but, you know.

02:04:18 Speaker_01
Could you build an LLM that was more, on one end of the spectrum versus the other to see what kind of information they forage for? It seemed like it would be a really important thing to do.

02:04:30 Speaker_03
It's been done. Okay, there was a paper that I reviewed where they took the LM and they fine-tuned it with different data from people with different disorders, you know, autism and so forth. And sociopaths, That's scary.

02:04:50 Speaker_01
But you want to know the answer.

02:04:51 Speaker_03
No, no. And they got these LLMs to behave just like those people who have these disorders. You can get them to behave that way. Yes.

02:05:00 Speaker_01
Could you do political leaning and values?

02:05:05 Speaker_03
I haven't seen that, but it's pretty clear that, to me at least, that if you can do sociopathy, you can probably do any political belief.

02:05:15 Speaker_01
But you could also view all this as, you could take benevolent tracks. You could also say hyper-creative.

02:05:24 Speaker_01
sensitive to emotional tone of voices and find out what kind of information that person brings, excuse me, that LLM brings back versus somebody who is very oriented towards just the content of people's words, as opposed to what, you know, because among people, you find this, you know, if you've ever left a party with a significant other, and sometimes someone will say, I've had this experience with like, did you see that interaction between so-and-so?

02:05:51 Speaker_01
I'm like, no, what are you talking about? Like, did you hear that? Not at all, I didn't hear, I heard the words, but I did not pick up on what you were picking up on.

02:05:58 Speaker_01
And it was clear that there's two very different experiences of the same content based purely on a difference in interpretation of the tonality.

02:06:07 Speaker_03
There's a lot of information that as you point out, which has to do with the tone, the spatial expressions. There's a tremendous amount of information that is passed, not just with words, but with all the other parts of the visual input and so forth.

02:06:27 Speaker_03
And some people are good at picking that up and others are not. There's a tremendous variability between individuals.

02:06:35 Speaker_03
Biology is all about diversity and it's all about needing a gene pool that's very diverse so that you can evolve and survive catastrophic changes that occur in a climate, for example. But wouldn't it be wonderful

02:06:55 Speaker_03
if we could create a LLM that could understand what those differences are. Now, just think about it, right?

02:07:10 Speaker_01
Like a truly diverse LLM that integrated all those differences.

02:07:14 Speaker_03
Yeah, but here's what you'd have to do. What you'd have to do is to train it up on data from a bunch of individuals, human individuals, Now, one of the things about these LLMs is that they don't have a single persona. They can adopt any persona.

02:07:30 Speaker_03
You have to tell it what you're expecting from.

02:07:33 Speaker_01
Or ask it in a way that works for you and you'll get back a certain persona.

02:07:37 Speaker_03
I once gave it an abstract from a paper, very technical, a computational paper. And I said, you are a neuroscientist. I want you to explain this abstract to a 10-year-old. It did it in a way that I could never have done it.

02:07:54 Speaker_02
It really simplified it.

02:07:55 Speaker_03
Was it accurate? Some of the subtleties were not in it, but it explained what plasticity it was and explained what a synapse is. Amazing. It did that.

02:08:05 Speaker_01
It's almost like a qualifying exam for a graduate student. I saw something today on X. formerly known as Twitter, that blew my mind, that I wanted your thoughts on that.

02:08:14 Speaker_01
It was very appropriate to what you're saying right now, which is someone was asking questions of an LLM on ChatGPT or maybe one of these other, Anthropic or Claude or something like that. I probably misused those names. One of the AI online sites.

02:08:32 Speaker_01
And somewhere in the middle of its answers, the LLM decide to just take a break and start looking at pictures of landscapes in Yosemite.

02:08:43 Speaker_01
Like the LLM was doing what a maybe cognitively fatigued person or what any kind of person online would do, which was to like take a break and look at a couple of pictures of something, maybe they're thinking about going camping there or something, and then get back to whatever task.

02:09:01 Speaker_01
We hear about hallucinations in AI, that it can imagine things that aren't there, just like a human brain. But that blew my mind.

02:09:11 Speaker_03
I haven't encountered that, but it's fascinating. That's a sign of a real generative internal model.

02:09:22 Speaker_03
See, here's the thing that most distinguishes, I think, an LLM from a human is that if you go into a room, quiet room, and just sit there without any sensory stimulation, your brain keeps thinking.

02:09:40 Speaker_03
In other words, you think about what you want to do, planning ahead or something that happened to you during the day, your brain is always generating internally. After talking to you, one of these large language models just goes blank.

02:09:59 Speaker_03
There is no self-continuous, self-generated thoughts.

02:10:05 Speaker_01
And yet we know self-generated thought, and in particular brain activity during sleep, as you illustrated earlier with the example of sleep spindles and rapid eye movement, sleep are absolutely critical for, you know,

02:10:18 Speaker_01
shaping the knowledge that we experienced during the day. So these LLMs are not quite where we are at yet. I mean, they can outperform us in certain things like Go, but how soon will we have LLMs, AI that is, with self-generated internal activity?

02:10:42 Speaker_03
We're getting closer. And so this is something I'm working on myself, actually, trying to understand how that's done in our own brains, which is generating continual brain activity that leads to planning and things.

02:10:59 Speaker_03
We don't know what the answer to that is yet in neuroscience. And by the way, you go to a lecture, and you hear the words one after the next. over an hour and you see the slides one after the next, at the end you ask a question, right?

02:11:15 Speaker_03
Just let's think about what you just did. Somehow you're able to integrate all that information over the hour and then use your long-term memory then to come up with some insight or some issue that you want. How does your brain remember

02:11:33 Speaker_03
all that information, working memory, traditional working memory that neuroscientists study is only for a few seconds, right? Or maybe a telephone number or something. But we're talking about long-term working memory.

02:11:45 Speaker_03
We don't understand how that is done. And LLMs, actually, large language models, can do something is called in-context learning. And it was a great surprise because there is no plasticity.

02:12:01 Speaker_03
The thing learns at the beginning, you train it up on data, and then all it does after that is to inference, fast loop of activity, one word after the next. That's what happens with no learning, no learning.

02:12:17 Speaker_03
it's been noticed that as you continue your dialogue, it seems to get better at things. How could that be? How could it be in context learning, even though there's no plasticity? That's a mystery.

02:12:31 Speaker_03
We don't know the answer to that question yet, but we also don't know what the answer is for humans either.

02:12:38 Speaker_00
Right.

02:12:40 Speaker_01
Could I ask you a few questions about you and as it relates to science and your trajectory?

02:12:47 Speaker_01
building off of what you were just saying, do you have a practice of meditation or eyes closed, sensory input reduced or shut down to drive your thinking in a particular way?

02:13:02 Speaker_01
Or are you at your computer talking to your students and postdocs and sprinting on the beach? Or asleep?

02:13:09 Speaker_03
No, it's funny you mentioned that, because I get my best ideas, not sprinting on the beach, but just either walking or jogging. And it's wonderful, I don't know, I think serotonin goes up, it's another neuromodulator.

02:13:22 Speaker_03
I think that that stimulates ideas and thoughts, and so inevitably I come back to my office and I can't remember any of those great ideas.

02:13:35 Speaker_01
What do you do about that?

02:13:36 Speaker_03
Well, now I take notes.

02:13:38 Speaker_01
Okay. Voice memos?

02:13:39 Speaker_03
Yeah. And some of them are to pan out. You know, there's no doubt about it that you're put into a situation. It is a form of meditation. You know, if you're running in a steady pace, nothing distracting about, you know, the beach.

02:13:56 Speaker_01
Do you listen to music or podcasts? No, I never listen to anything except my own thoughts.

02:14:01 Speaker_01
So there's a former guest on this podcast who she happens to be triple degreed from Harvard, but she's more in the kind of like personal coach space, but very, very high level and impressive mind, impressive human all around.

02:14:14 Speaker_01
And she has this concept of wordlessness.

02:14:18 Speaker_01
that can be used to accomplish a number of different things, but this idea that allowing oneself or creating conditions for oneself to enter states throughout the day or maybe once a day of very minimal sensory input, no lecture, no podcast, no book, no music, nothing, and allowing the brain to just kind of idle and go a little bit non-linear, if you will.

02:14:46 Speaker_01
where we're not constructing thoughts or paying attention to anyone else's thoughts through those media venues in any kind of structured way as a source of great ideas and creativity.

02:14:58 Speaker_03
It's been studied. Psychologists call it mind-wandering.

02:15:01 Speaker_01
Mind-wandering.

02:15:02 Speaker_03
It is a significant literature. And it's often when you have an aha moment, right? you know, your mind is wandering and it's thinking non-linearly in the sense of not following a sequence that is logical, you know, hopping from thing to thing.

02:15:22 Speaker_03
Often that's when you get a great idea with just letting your mind wander. Yeah, and that happens to me.

02:15:28 Speaker_01
I wonder whether social media and just texting and phones in general have eliminated a lot of the, you know, walks to the car after work where one would normally not be on a call or in communication with anyone or anything.

02:15:42 Speaker_01
I used to do experiments where I was, you know, like pipetting and running, you know, immunohistochemistry and it was very relaxing.

02:15:49 Speaker_01
And I could think while I was doing, because I knew the procedures and then, you know, you had to pay attention to certain things, write them down. But I would often feel like, wow, I'm both working and relaxing and thinking of things.

02:16:00 Speaker_01
And then I would listen to music sometimes.

02:16:02 Speaker_03
Okay, so we have a whole session, you know, a clip in learning how to learn about exactly this phenomenon. Here's what we tell our students, right?

02:16:16 Speaker_03
is that if you're having trouble with some concept or you don't understand something, you're beating your head against the wall, don't. Stop. Stop. Just go off and do something. Go off and clean the dishes. Go off and walk around the block.

02:16:34 Speaker_03
And inevitably, what happens is when you come back, your mind is clear, and you figure out what to do. And that's one of the best pieces of advice that anybody could get. Because nobody has told us how the brain works, right?

02:16:51 Speaker_03
Some people are really good at intuitings because they've experienced maybe. But everybody I know, OK, the other thing is everybody I know who's really made important contributions. And I'll bet you're one of them.

02:17:11 Speaker_03
You know, you're struggling with some problem at night and you go to bed and you wake up in the morning, ah, that's the solution.

02:17:17 Speaker_01
That's what I should do, right? First thing in the morning when I wake up is when I'm almost bombarded with, I wouldn't say insight and not always meaningful insight, but certainly what was unclear becomes immediately clear on waking.

02:17:32 Speaker_03
That's the thing that is so amazing about sleep. And you can see people who know this can count on it. In other words, the key is to think about it before you go to sleep. Right? Your brain works on it during the sleep period, right?

02:17:49 Speaker_03
And so, you know, don't watch TV because then who knows what your brain is going to work on.

02:17:55 Speaker_03
You know, use the time before you fall asleep to think about something that is bothering you or maybe something that, you know, you're trying to understand, maybe, you know. A paper that you read the paper and say, oh, I'm tired.

02:18:08 Speaker_03
I'm going to go to sleep. You wake up in the morning and say, oh, I know what's going on in that paper. Yeah, I mean, that's what happens. Once you know something about how the brain works, you can take advantage of that.

02:18:18 Speaker_01
Do you pay attention to your dreams? Do you record them? No, no.

02:18:22 Speaker_03
OK, so here's the problem. Dreams seem so iconic, and a lot of people somehow attribute things to them. But there has never been any good theory or any good understanding, first of all, why we dream. It's still not completely clear.

02:18:47 Speaker_03
I mean, there are some ideas. Why this particular dream? Does that have some significance for you?

02:18:56 Speaker_03
And the only thing that I know that might explain a little bit is that the dreams are often very visual, rapid eye movement sleep, so that there's something happening. Actually, it's interesting. All the neuromodulators are downregulated during sleep.

02:19:14 Speaker_03
And then during REM sleep, acetylcholine comes up, right? So that's a very powerful neuromodulator. It's important for attention, for example. But it doesn't come up in the prefrontal cortex.

02:19:25 Speaker_03
which means that the circuits in the prefrontal cortex that are interpreting the sensory input coming in are not turned on. So any of these, whatever happens in your visual cortex is not being monitored anymore.

02:19:40 Speaker_03
So you get bizarre things, you know, that you start floating and, you know, things happen to you and, you know, it's not anchored anymore. And so, but that still doesn't explain why, right? Why you have that period.

02:19:52 Speaker_03
It's important because if you block it and there are some sleeping pills that do block it, you know, it really does cause problems with, you know, normal cognitive function?

02:20:03 Speaker_01
Cannabis as well. People who come off cannabis experience a tremendous REM rebound and lots of dreaming in the days and weeks and months after cannabis

02:20:18 Speaker_03
Wow.

02:20:19 Speaker_01
I don't want to call it withdrawal, because that has a different meaning.

02:20:21 Speaker_03
No, no. It's an imbalance that was caused because the brain adjusted to the endocannabinoid levels. And now it's got to go back and it takes time, but it's interesting. It's interesting. It affects dreams. I think that may be a clue.

02:20:38 Speaker_01
Yeah, very common phenomenon. I'm told. I'm not a cannabis user, but no judgment there. I just am not. It's actually a book I read years ago when I was in college, so a long time ago, by Alan Hobson, who was out at Harvard. Oh, yeah, I know him. Oh, cool.

02:20:58 Speaker_01
So I never met him, but he had this interesting idea that dreams, in particular rapid eye movement dreams, were so very similar to the experience that one has on certain psychedelics, LSD, lysergic acid, diethylamide, or psilocybin.

02:21:16 Speaker_01
And that perhaps dreams are revealing the unconscious mind, you know, not saying this in any psychological terms, you know, that, you know, when we're asleep, our conscious mind can't control thought and action in the same way, obviously.

02:21:29 Speaker_01
And kind of, it's sort of a recession of the waterline, you know, so we're getting more of the unconscious processing revealed.

02:21:36 Speaker_03
You know, that's an interesting hypothesis. How would you test it?

02:21:42 Speaker_01
probably have to put someone in a scanner, have them go to sleep, put them in the scanner on a psilocybin journey, this kind of thing. You know, it's tough.

02:21:52 Speaker_01
I mean, any of these observational studies, of course, we both know are deficient in the sense that what you'd really like to do is control the neural activity.

02:22:00 Speaker_01
you'd like to get in there and tickle the neurons over here and see how the brain changes. And you'd love to get real-time subjective report.

02:22:06 Speaker_01
This is the problem with sleep and dreaming is you can wake people up and ask them what they were just dreaming about, but you can't really know what they're dreaming about in real time.

02:22:16 Speaker_03
It's true. Yeah, it's true. By the way, you know, there are two kinds of dreams. Very interesting. So if you wake someone up during REM sleep, you get very vivid, Changing, dreams, they're always different and changing.

02:22:31 Speaker_03
But if you wake someone up during slow wave sleep, you often get a dream report, but it's a kind of dream that keeps repeating over and over again every night. And it's a very heavy emotional content.

02:22:42 Speaker_01
Interesting, that's in slow wave sleep.

02:22:45 Speaker_03
Yeah.

02:22:45 Speaker_01
Because I've had a few dreams over and over and over throughout my life. So this would be in slow wave sleep.

02:22:50 Speaker_03
Yeah, probably slow wave sleep, yeah.

02:22:53 Speaker_01
Fascinating. as a neuroscientist who's computationally oriented, but really you incorporate the biology so well into your work. So that's one of the reasons you're you, you're this luminary of your field and who's also now really excited about AI.

02:23:11 Speaker_01
What are you most excited about now? Like if you had,

02:23:15 Speaker_01
And of course this isn't the case, but if you had like 24 more months to just pour yourself into something and then you had to hand the keys to your lab over to someone else, what would you go all in on?

02:23:28 Speaker_03
Well, so the NIH has something called the Pioneer Award. And what they're looking for are big ideas. that could have a huge impact, right? So I put one in recently, and here's the title is, Temporal Context in Brains and Transformers.

02:23:52 Speaker_01
And in brains and transforms? Transformers. Formers.

02:23:55 Speaker_03
AI, right? The key to GTP is the fact there's this new architecture, it's a deep learning architecture, feed forward network, but it's called a transformer. And it has certain parts in it that are unique. There's one called self-attention.

02:24:13 Speaker_03
And it's a way of doing what is called temporal context. What it does is it connects words that are far apart. You give it a sequence of words and it can tell you the association. Like if I use the word this,

02:24:28 Speaker_03
And then you have to figure out in the last sentence, what did it refer to? Well, there's three or four nouns it could have referred to, but from context, you can figure out which one it does and you can learn that association.

02:24:40 Speaker_01
Could I just play with another example to make sure I understand this correctly? I've seen these word bubble charts.

02:24:46 Speaker_01
if we were to say piano, you'd say keys, you'd say music, you'd say seat, and then, you know, it kind of builds out a word cloud of association.

02:24:54 Speaker_01
And then over here, we'd say, I don't know, I'm thinking about the Salk Institute, I'd say sunset, Stonehenge, anyone that looks up, there's this phenomenon, Salkhenge. Then you start building out a word cloud over there.

02:25:05 Speaker_01
These are disparate things, except I've been to a classical music concert at the Salk Institute. Symphony of Salk. Twice. So they're not, completely non-overlapping. And so you start getting associations at a distance and eventually they bridge together.

02:25:19 Speaker_01
Is this what you're referring to?

02:25:20 Speaker_03
Yes. I think that that's an example, but it turns out that every word is ambiguous. It has like three, four meanings. And so you have to figure that out from context. In other words, there are words that live together. and that come up often.

02:25:38 Speaker_03
And you can learn that from just by predicting the next word in a sentence. That's how a transformer is trained. You give it a bunch of words and it keeps predicting the next word in a sentence.

02:25:48 Speaker_01
Like in my email now, it tries to predict the next word. Yes, exactly. And it's mostly right part of the time.

02:25:54 Speaker_03
OK, well, that's because it's a very primitive version of this algorithm.

02:25:59 Speaker_03
What happened is if you train it up on enough, not only can it answer the next word, it internally builds up a semantic representation in the same way you describe the words that are related to each other, having associations.

02:26:17 Speaker_03
It can figure that out, and it has representations inside this very large network with trillions of parameters. It's unbelievable how big they've gotten. And those associations now form an internal model of the meaning of the sentence.

02:26:37 Speaker_03
literally, this is something that now we've probed these transformers and so we pretty much are pretty confident. And that means that it's forming an internal model of the outside world, in this case a bunch of words,

02:26:55 Speaker_03
And that's how it's able to actually respond to you in a way that is sensible, that makes sense and actually is interesting and so forth. And it's all the self-attention I'm talking about.

02:27:07 Speaker_03
So in any case, my pioneer proposal is to figure out how does the brain do self-attention, right? It's gotta do it somehow. And I'll give you a little hint. Basal ganglia.

02:27:22 Speaker_01
It's in the basal ganglia.

02:27:23 Speaker_03
That's my hypothesis. Well, we'll see. I mean, you know, I'll be working with experimental people. I've worked with John Reynolds, for example, who studies primate visual cortex. And we've looked at traveling waves there.

02:27:40 Speaker_03
And there are other people that have looked at in primates.

02:27:46 Speaker_03
And so now these traveling waves I think are also a part of the puzzle, pieces of the puzzle that are going to give us a much better view of how the cortex is organized and how it interacts with the basal ganglia.

02:28:02 Speaker_03
We've already been there, but we still, you know, neuroscientists have studied each one of these parts of the brain independently. And now we have to start thinking about putting the pieces of the puzzle together, right?

02:28:15 Speaker_03
Trying to get all the things that we know about these areas and see how they work together in a computational way. And that's really where I want to go.

02:28:24 Speaker_01
I love it. And I do hope they decide to fund your pioneer award. I do too. Yeah. And should they make the bad decision not to, maybe we'll figure out another way to get the work done. Certainly you will. Terry, I want to thank you.

02:28:41 Speaker_01
First of all, for coming here today, taking time out of your busy cognitive and running and teaching and research schedule to share your knowledge with us. And also for the incredible work that you're doing on public education and teaching the public

02:28:57 Speaker_01
I should say, giving the public resources to learn how to learn better at zero cost. So we will certainly provide links to learning how to learn and your book and to these other incredible resources that you've shared.

02:29:10 Speaker_01
And you've also given us a ton of practical tools today related to exercise mitochondria and some of the things that you do, which of course are just your versions of what you do.

02:29:19 Speaker_01
that certainly, certainly are going to be a value to people, including me in our cognitive and physical pursuits and frankly, just longevity. I mean, this is not lost on me and those listening that your vigor is, as I mentioned earlier, undeniable.

02:29:36 Speaker_01
And it's been such a pleasure over the years to just see the amount of focus and energy and enthusiasm that you bring to your work and to observe that it not only hasn't slowed, but you're picking up velocity.

02:29:48 Speaker_01
So thank you so much for educating us today. I know I speak on behalf of myself and many, many people listening and watching. This is a real gift, a real incredible experience to learn from you. So thank you so much.

02:30:02 Speaker_03
Well, thank you. And I have to say that I've been blessed over the years with wonderful students. and wonderful colleagues, and I count you among them, who really I've learned a lot from. Thank you. But you know, science is a social activity.

02:30:21 Speaker_03
And we learn from each other. And we all make mistakes. But we learn from our mistakes, and that's the beauty of science, is that we can make progress.

02:30:31 Speaker_03
Now, you know, your career has been remarkable too, because you have affected and influenced more people than anybody else I know, personally, with the knowledge that you are broadcasting,

02:30:47 Speaker_03
through your interviews, but also just in terms of your interests. I'm really impressed with what you've done, and I want you to keep at it, because we need people like you. We need scientists who can actually express and reach the public.

02:31:08 Speaker_03
If we don't do that, everything we do is behind closed doors, right? Nothing gets out. And so you're one of the best of the breed in terms of being able to explain things in a clear way that gets through to more people than anybody else I know.

02:31:23 Speaker_01
Well, thank you. I'm very honored to hear that. It's a labor of love for me and I'll take those words in and I really appreciate it. It's an honor and a privilege to sit with you today and please come back again.

02:31:34 Speaker_03
I would love to, yeah.

02:31:35 Speaker_01
All right, thank you, Terry.

02:31:37 Speaker_03
You're welcome.

02:31:38 Speaker_01
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Terry Signowski. To find links to his work, the Zero Cost Online Learning Portal that he and his colleagues have developed, and to find links to his new book, please see the show note captions.

02:31:51 Speaker_01
If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

02:32:02 Speaker_01
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02:32:12 Speaker_01
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02:32:22 Speaker_01
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, An Operating Manual for the Human Body.

02:32:29 Speaker_01
This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep,

02:32:39 Speaker_01
to exercise, to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.

02:32:53 Speaker_01
There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body.

02:33:02 Speaker_01
If you're not already following me on social media, I'm HubermanLab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

02:33:11 Speaker_01
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the HubermanLab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the HubermanLab podcast.

02:33:21 Speaker_01
Again, that's HubermanLab on all social media platforms.

02:33:25 Speaker_01
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, our Neural Network newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three page PDFs.

02:33:36 Speaker_01
Those one to three page PDFs cover things like deliberate heat exposure, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol. We also have protocols for optimizing your sleep, dopamine, and much more.

02:33:47 Speaker_01
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02:33:57 Speaker_01
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Terry Sienowski. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.