Cynthia Erivo AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

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Episode: Cynthia Erivo

Author: Armchair Umbrella
Duration: 01:59:11

Episode Shownotes

Cynthia Erivo (Wicked, Harriet, The Color Purple) is an award-winning actor and singer. Cynthia joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the vibes of South London, how she feels about people calling her cute, and her desire to connect with the audience when she’s on stage. Cynthia and Dax talk about

the differences in acting in dramas vs comedies, the burdens of doing political roles, and why she picked extensive makeup over CGI for Wicked. Cynthia explains if she prefers songs led by lyrics or music, how she experiences synesthesia, and how much she loves Ariana Grande. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Summary

In this episode of Armchair Expert, Cynthia Erivo discusses her journey as an award-winning actress and singer. The conversation begins with her cultural background from South London and her distinctive approach to roles, choosing extensive makeup over CGI in 'Wicked'. Erivo reflects on the complexities of live performances, the emotional connections she forges with audiences, and the stereotypes she faces, particularly related to her appearance and identity as a Black queer woman. The discussion also touches on her creative choices, the impact of music on emotions, and her rich background in music psychology, ultimately emphasizing the importance of authenticity and collaboration in her artistry.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Cynthia Erivo) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_10
Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert.

00:00:16 Speaker_10
I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

00:00:18 Speaker_02
Hi.

00:00:19 Speaker_10
We have the great privilege of seeing Wicked early.

00:00:24 Speaker_03
What a dream.

00:00:25 Speaker_10
And our guest today, Cynthia Erivo, is so dynamic and so powerful and so infectious and intoxicating and euphoria inducing. I fell so in love with her in this movie.

00:00:38 Speaker_03
She's so good. So good in the movie. She's such a cool person. She's also like she just hosted the CFDA Awards. That's a huge fashion thing. She's very cool.

00:00:49 Speaker_10
And then she arrived and she over-delivered. You have seen her in Harriet, Windows, Bad Times at El Royale, The Color Purple on Broadway. She's won all the awards. And of course, November 22nd, just in time for the big turkey day, Wicked.

00:01:03 Speaker_10
You're going to want to run out and see it. Buy your tickets now, pre-order. If you didn't pre-order a month ago, you should already be panicked.

00:01:09 Speaker_03
Yeah, panic.

00:01:10 Speaker_10
Please enjoy Cynthia Erivo. We are supported by Audible. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment.

00:01:27 Speaker_10
Like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984. This is the one I am most excited to indulge myself with.

00:01:36 Speaker_03
I'm so excited to listen to James, which is a new title by Percival Efret that is very, very hot right now.

00:01:45 Speaker_10
Well, there's so many good ones on the list.

00:01:46 Speaker_03
We love Audible. This is how you go to bed.

00:01:49 Speaker_10
I love Audible, I swear by Audible. I can't wait to listen to the Orwell 1984 off this list. I'm also doing Flea's autobiography right now, which I'm obsessed with. I can't get enough Audible in my life, every night.

00:02:00 Speaker_10
Go to audible.com slash dax and discover all the year's best waiting for you. That's audible.com slash dax. We are supported by Audible. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here.

00:02:16 Speaker_10
Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment. Like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984. This is the one I am most excited to indulge myself with.

00:02:32 Speaker_03
I'm so excited to listen to James, which is a new title by Percival Efret that is very, very hot right now.

00:02:42 Speaker_10
Well, there's so many good ones on the list.

00:02:43 Speaker_03
We love Audible. This is how you go to bed.

00:02:46 Speaker_10
I love Audible, I swear by Audible. I can't wait to listen to the Orwell 1984 off this list. I'm also doing Fleas autobiography right now, which I'm obsessed with. I can't get enough Audible in my life, every night.

00:02:57 Speaker_10
Go to audible.com slash dax and discover all the year's best waiting for you. That's audible.com slash dax.

00:03:05 Speaker_05
♪ He's an art expert ♪ How long have you been doing this? We launched in February of 2018.

00:03:31 Speaker_03
Almost seven years.

00:03:32 Speaker_13
Yeah. You're many people's favorite.

00:03:34 Speaker_03
Oh, thank you. We try to do the opposite of clickbaity. Even talk shows, which we love, you just go in and you do your thing and then you get out and there's no context and things blow up. I'm trying to sort of be the antidote to that.

00:03:47 Speaker_13
Thank you for doing that.

00:03:48 Speaker_03
Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, for us too.

00:03:51 Speaker_13
Things get so out of control. Yes, they do.

00:03:54 Speaker_03
getting worse by the second.

00:03:55 Speaker_13
I don't know what the heck is happening. People are seeking out the worst of things. It's very strange.

00:04:02 Speaker_03
It's a little bit of it. We say like outrage addiction. Yeah. I'm really unhealthy. It is.

00:04:08 Speaker_03
We're in a sort of an interesting time where I feel like celebrities, especially newer celebrities, are starting to push back and like question fandom in a really interesting way.

00:04:21 Speaker_13
Where the boundary is.

00:04:22 Speaker_03
Exactly.

00:04:23 Speaker_13
Where you get to be a part of my life, and then when I get to have my life for myself.

00:04:27 Speaker_03
Yeah, that you're a person.

00:04:30 Speaker_13
It's like reminding people that humanity exists.

00:04:32 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:04:33 Speaker_13
You can be a human being.

00:04:34 Speaker_03
Exactly. It's sad that we have to remind people, but... Good morning. Good morning.

00:04:45 Speaker_02
Oh, man. Oh, you smell so good. God, I smell like sweat. I just went on a hike. Well done. Thank you. Well, this is a long time coming. Oh, my goodness.

00:04:57 Speaker_10
You're a miniature, too.

00:04:59 Speaker_02
You are a miniature.

00:05:01 Speaker_10
You're in good company. Are you jealous? She has even bigger pants on than you. I know.

00:05:07 Speaker_08
Her fashion's unreal.

00:05:09 Speaker_10
I'm Dax, by the way.

00:05:10 Speaker_08
Nice to meet you. Welcome.

00:05:14 Speaker_03
We've already talked about bags. The fashion is outrageous.

00:05:17 Speaker_10
Do you want to sit down for two seconds? Cause I don't have the knowledge base to talk about what I thought was really funny while I was researching you.

00:05:25 Speaker_02
I try to tell him all the time that he only has some of the info.

00:05:29 Speaker_10
Okay. Cynthia, I was watching an interview with you and you had mentioned that you were about to do some Sommheim and Kristen was readying herself for the day and she stopped everything. Who was she playing?

00:05:42 Speaker_02
What's happening? Well, specifically cause it was night music, which is my favorite. Who did you play?

00:05:47 Speaker_10
Petra. Do you want to air your grievance?

00:05:51 Speaker_02
Well, my grievance was I was really struggling to figure out who you were going to play, because I was like, you have the moxie for Desiree, though you're not anywhere near the type, near the age for it. Right.

00:06:03 Speaker_10
So your grievance, as I recalled, was you only played the child in that. Is that the same musical? Yes.

00:06:10 Speaker_02
So I've done night music twice. I did it at the Kennedy Center during Sondheim rep a million years ago and then I did it at the LA Opera House. That's cool. But both times I played Frederica. What?

00:06:23 Speaker_10
Who's 13? Yeah.

00:06:24 Speaker_02
Who's 13 years old. The whole time, I dream of playing Anne.

00:06:28 Speaker_13
Yeah, no, Anne's phenomenal. Well, now's your chance.

00:06:31 Speaker_02
Go. Go. Go. Go. Go. Go. Go. Sting off. Now, as the sweet imbecility stumbles so lavishly onto her lap. Yes. Oh. But here's the thing. Dax informed me pretty bluntly this morning. Yes. I can't pull off Anne either. He said, you're way more of a Desiree.

00:06:44 Speaker_02
I said, what do you know? Well, hold on.

00:06:46 Speaker_10
First of all, I didn't say that because I don't know the names of the characters. But what I did say is that you are closer in age. This is bad news. I'm going to tell you, you're closer in age to 63 than you are 24. True.

00:06:57 Speaker_10
I said, now, look, you could put on a ton of makeup and play 24. They could do some prosthetics and age you down. Or you could go out on stage with no makeup and you'd be playing 64. Can you believe?

00:07:12 Speaker_13
I'm offended for real.

00:07:16 Speaker_10
It's ludicrous, that's why I say it, because obviously she's a beauty. It's like you age backwards, it's very strange.

00:07:22 Speaker_13
It's a good joke because it's absolutely the most untrue thing in the world. I think you could still play Anne. I couldn't pull off Anne at all. Petra was perfect. Wait, what's Petra's solo? The Miller's Son. Oh, I don't... Oh, yeah.

00:07:35 Speaker_10
You've already done it or you're about to do it.

00:07:37 Speaker_13
I did it at Lincoln Center.

00:07:38 Speaker_10
Oh, it was a one off.

00:07:40 Speaker_13
Well, four nights.

00:07:41 Speaker_10
Did you want for more or were you happy it was only four nights?

00:07:44 Speaker_13
I was happy it was only four nights because it was manic. I was doing 59 other things at the same time.

00:07:49 Speaker_13
On one day, I opened something in the morning, did something in the afternoon, which was like a full 20 minute set show for Pride Weekend and ran from the Pride Weekend show to that was the Stonewall. That's right. To do night music.

00:08:03 Speaker_02
And that's a dangerous song if your head is not straight. It is such a wordy song.

00:08:09 Speaker_13
There was actually a night where I had to stop because it's also dangerous if you're not moving at the right speed. If it slows down too much, your brain switches on.

00:08:19 Speaker_13
It's one of those songs that you need your brain to be on autopilot so you can actually just reel the words off. And if it slows down and it felt like it was slowing to a grinding halt, it's like that weird sort of, oh my God, I'm in the room.

00:08:32 Speaker_13
What are the words again? Is that what I'm saying? And I just was like, OK, we have to stop. I am a big, big advocate for if it's going wrong, stop.

00:08:42 Speaker_10
Interesting, because I was just going to ask, do you have a mode where you'll just you know the melody still and just kind of make up some words until we find our way back?

00:08:50 Speaker_13
We're not going to do a car crash. I can't. I'm going to say, you know, I'm going to pull over to the side of the road. We're going to just start again. Let's get back into the right space.

00:09:00 Speaker_13
And I'm going to take you exactly where you're supposed to go in the right fashion. We're not focused here.

00:09:04 Speaker_09
Let's regroup.

00:09:04 Speaker_13
Yeah, we're swerving too much here.

00:09:06 Speaker_09
It's not good. We're all over the road.

00:09:07 Speaker_02
Yeah, that's not what at least I was taught in musical theater. It's like, keep it going.

00:09:12 Speaker_13
And it's the wrong thing to be taught. Sometimes you keep going. Sometimes if you can and you can get back into it quickly, keep going. But if you need to stop and refocus, stop and refocus because the audience will say, oh, you know it too.

00:09:25 Speaker_13
You were experiencing it too. OK, so I wasn't insane. That means you're taking care of me.

00:09:30 Speaker_10
I can trust you. What you're saying is I'm not going to gaslight you audience. This is all fucked up.

00:09:36 Speaker_13
Yes.

00:09:36 Speaker_10
I'm not going to lie.

00:09:37 Speaker_13
This ain't it. And this is not what I want to do. This is not what you want to listen to. We're going to go back to the beginning. It also says that I'm in control of this and I've got you. I won't take you down this road where it doesn't make sense.

00:09:49 Speaker_10
What have you win so far as a Saint? I want everyone to re-enter. We're gonna ring the bell, then come in. Maybe too far. Okay, just to be provocative for one second.

00:10:01 Speaker_09
Go on, one second.

00:10:02 Speaker_10
For two hours. Did you see American Symphony, the John Bautista documentary?

00:10:08 Speaker_13
Yes, yes I did.

00:10:09 Speaker_10
What a beautiful doc, right? Beautiful. But if you remember, he's at Carnegie Hall and all the power goes out. Yes. And he's fucked. I can't imagine anything more stressful. And then talk about 27 things going on in his life.

00:10:19 Speaker_10
He's got the Grammys, his wife, and then,

00:10:23 Speaker_10
He starts letting his internal emotions come out on this piano keyboard, and he's processing this frustration and this everything, and then slowly it starts fusing with this melody, and then it becomes beautiful, and then magically the power comes back on.

00:10:39 Speaker_10
There is also some room for the chaos, if embraced, to become something unique and interesting.

00:10:45 Speaker_13
However, what he didn't do was continue on with what was already pre-planned. What he did was start something totally new.

00:10:53 Speaker_10
You've won that checkmate.

00:10:55 Speaker_13
You see what I'm saying?

00:10:55 Speaker_10
Great counter.

00:10:56 Speaker_13
Which means that he was completely in control of the situation. He said, what we were planning, out the window. There's no power. I can't do this. And then just let me filter whatever I can filter through in the present moment.

00:11:08 Speaker_10
Well, listen, I just wanted to bring Kristen in because the whole house was a flutter today. Now Kristen's in, she believes this ruse.

00:11:14 Speaker_10
Mysteriously, our 11 year old had an emotional fit this morning that precluded her from going to school on time because she knew somebody was coming to the house at 11. Is she here? No, we had to send her.

00:11:26 Speaker_02
I fell for it. Hook, line and sinker. I was like, oh, she's having a swing. OK, we're going to let her regulate. I'm going to stand back. I'm going to let her get it all out. She's crying the whole nine yards. We finally calm down on the ride to school.

00:11:38 Speaker_02
She goes, is Cynthia the 11 a.m. or the 2 p.m.? That's what she said. I had a feeling you guys were going to keep them home from school today. I used my optimistic outlook. I said, this will not be the last time. It won't. We're going to double date.

00:11:51 Speaker_02
There's going to be some other time where you will be able to be in her presence and say what she means to you, because you mean quite a bit to her.

00:11:58 Speaker_10
But hon, if Brad Pitt was coming over to clean the pool at 11 a.m. and I mysteriously couldn't make my appointment at 10, you would go immediately. This is horseshit. He just wants to watch Brad Pitt clean our pool.

00:12:08 Speaker_02
That's true. But I immediately take on their emotions. She started to get dysregulated and then I started to get dysregulated. And I was like chugging coffee to wake up, be like, how do we calm everybody down this morning?

00:12:18 Speaker_02
Then I called your sister to take the other one in.

00:12:20 Speaker_10
And I was evil eyes upstairs journaling. And I was listening to all the machinations and I was like, this is horseshit, but it's going to work.

00:12:26 Speaker_02
I didn't even realize until really this moment what was pulled over. Oh, my God.

00:12:32 Speaker_10
Listen, some people would be disappointed, but that's something to be quite proud of.

00:12:35 Speaker_13
Well done. That she gave it a shot for something she loves. That is sweet. And also, I feel really cool.

00:12:43 Speaker_10
Good.

00:12:43 Speaker_04
You are really cool.

00:12:44 Speaker_13
I feel really cool that your 11 year old was like, yeah,

00:12:47 Speaker_10
And you're bringing something for everybody because then you showed up in this outfit and now Monica's all on the ropes.

00:12:51 Speaker_03
She's fucked up. You're more than an outfit to me though. Don't let him do that.

00:12:56 Speaker_10
You got us all fucked up. This place is a titter. I think we should call it. That was a great episode. We can go only down from here. So what do you think about this really bad sample set I have? But 30 year old London. What do we share?

00:13:10 Speaker_10
Endlessly interested in whatever weird cultural differences we have because it's misleadingly similar.

00:13:16 Speaker_13
As in between here and America.

00:13:17 Speaker_10
Yeah. Yeah. Right. You're like, oh yeah. English shows, blah, blah, blah. But then there's really interesting differences.

00:13:23 Speaker_13
It's weird because when I first moved here, I moved to New York and that felt the most similar to London specifically.

00:13:30 Speaker_13
But the thing that America and the UK as a whole have very similarly is that there are cities, places that it feels really multicultural and it's really like busy. And then you move further out and it becomes really disparate.

00:13:42 Speaker_13
I'm not having the same experience in London that someone is having in, I don't know, Yorkshire. Yorkshire is a beautiful, beautiful place. The vibe is very different and it just feels different. So it's the same as if I'm here in L.A.

00:13:54 Speaker_13
or I'm here in New York, it's very different than if I'm in Georgia.

00:13:58 Speaker_10
London and New York have more in common than London and Essex. Correct. Than New York and Georgia. Yes. I get that. The foods are different. We just have different foods. Yeah.

00:14:06 Speaker_13
Because we have to. Why do you have to? Well, there are certain things that we're just not allowed to have in our food that you're okay to have in food here.

00:14:13 Speaker_10
Oh, like chemically? Yeah, chemically. Yeah, yeah.

00:14:15 Speaker_13
We're like not allowed to have certain things.

00:14:17 Speaker_10
Yeah, but look how big and strong we are. Look at the UFC.

00:14:19 Speaker_13
Well, I don't think we have. Do we have the UFC? Yes, Conor McGregor.

00:14:24 Speaker_10
Yeah. I'm scared of him. I'm scared of him a little bit, but I do think like some of his bravado. He wants you to be scared of him. Yeah. Cause he's scared.

00:14:30 Speaker_13
I feel like there's a part of him that's just like the most gentle, sweetest thing in the world.

00:14:34 Speaker_10
Well, this might interest you. We interviewed him last year and my main curiosity was like, what event happens before you dedicate your life to martial arts? And so I had asked him and he said, no, I walked into this gym at 12 years old.

00:14:46 Speaker_10
I'm like, yeah, but why do you walk into a boxing gym? What happened immediately before? And he's like, okay, well actually I like this girl. She was older than me. She liked me. I was walking on the street with her.

00:14:55 Speaker_10
Then the older boys, one of whom was her boyfriend, pulled up in a car, three older guys got out and beat the shit out of him. And then he goes, I didn't really fight back. And I'm like, now that makes sense.

00:15:05 Speaker_10
When you're trying to heal that embarrassment in front of a girl you like, where you didn't defend yourself, that's a motivation that can send you on a life trajectory. And so, yeah, I think that little boy is underneath all of that.

00:15:17 Speaker_10
Still trying to defend himself. It's really going off the rails a little bit.

00:15:20 Speaker_13
I think so. Yeah. It's just like gone one step too far, but oh, I hope he finds a little bit of healing.

00:15:26 Speaker_10
Yeah. He has little kids. I think that can be a route into it.

00:15:30 Speaker_13
But I think there's something that has to be healed within himself first. It's also easily passed on to his kids. And that anger, that dismay, it's easily rubbed off.

00:15:40 Speaker_10
Well, I say this all the time. I'm glad we have girls and not boys because yeah, I think the impulse when that was your life is to go like, well, if I don't pass this on to him, he'll suffer the way I did.

00:15:49 Speaker_10
And you're just starting it all up again because you don't have any faith in the future. I get it.

00:15:54 Speaker_13
Do you have kids?

00:15:55 Speaker_10
I don't know.

00:15:56 Speaker_13
Do you want them? I don't think so.

00:15:57 Speaker_10
I'm good with kids though.

00:15:58 Speaker_03
I'm also on the fence.

00:16:00 Speaker_10
You guys are the exact same age. 37. And you and I are only six days apart in January. No way. Do you believe in all the astrology stuff or no?

00:16:08 Speaker_13
I think there's a part of me that does believe in it because I'm very Capricorn to a T, which disturbs me somewhat because it annoys me.

00:16:17 Speaker_03
That's what Capricorns do. They're annoyed by the fact that it's accurate.

00:16:21 Speaker_13
The predictability. I hate it. I'm like, okay, so I'm stubborn. Good.

00:16:24 Speaker_10
Great.

00:16:25 Speaker_13
Overachieving. Yes. Understood. Do I like nice things? Yes. I like nice things.

00:16:29 Speaker_10
Am I in charge all the time?

00:16:31 Speaker_13
All the time. Do I plan people's lives? Yes. Am I emotionally adept sometimes? Yes. Do I keep my feelings to myself for a really long time?

00:16:39 Speaker_08
Yes.

00:16:40 Speaker_13
Am I working through it? Yes.

00:16:41 Speaker_10
Am I insufferable?

00:16:42 Speaker_13
You bet your ass I am.

00:16:43 Speaker_10
Completely.

00:16:45 Speaker_13
Am I right a lot of the times?

00:16:46 Speaker_10
Yes. Does it annoy people? Yes. Do I like saying I told you so?

00:16:50 Speaker_13
Not always.

00:16:52 Speaker_10
Okay, great. I love you. Thanks for stopping by.

00:16:53 Speaker_13
You don't have to sneak out. You can come back if you want to.

00:16:55 Speaker_10
She has a whole schedule.

00:16:56 Speaker_13
Oh, enjoy. Bye. Bye.

00:17:01 Speaker_10
Did you get on with Michaela?

00:17:02 Speaker_13
Cole?

00:17:03 Speaker_10
Yes.

00:17:03 Speaker_13
I've known her since I was 16.

00:17:05 Speaker_10
I love her so much. I read her book.

00:17:08 Speaker_13
She's one of the most phenomenal human beings in the world.

00:17:10 Speaker_10
Well, for people that don't know Michaela, what was her incredible show? That was the best show of the year on HBO. I may destroy you. I may destroy you. If you've not seen I May Destroy You.

00:17:17 Speaker_13
You have to see it. Also, before you see I May Destroy You, see Chewing Gum, which I'm in for like an episode or two. But it's just brilliant. Oh, I'm so excited. And people don't realize that is originally based on a long form poem that she wrote.

00:17:31 Speaker_13
I remember the first time I saw this poem because she performed it live. I can't even remember where we were, but it was like somewhere in Holloway or something like this small little theater.

00:17:40 Speaker_13
And it was like a one woman poem where she played all these different roles. And then it just expanded into this TV show.

00:17:47 Speaker_10
She's like a wunderkind.

00:17:48 Speaker_13
Yeah, there's no one like her.

00:17:49 Speaker_10
Where did you meet?

00:17:50 Speaker_13
East London. I want to say we met at one of the theaters or something.

00:17:54 Speaker_10
You were just both into... Yeah.

00:17:56 Speaker_13
Are you comparable ages? I think she's maybe a year or so younger than me.

00:18:00 Speaker_10
Younger?

00:18:00 Speaker_13
Yeah. What a bitch. Yeah, but I love her.

00:18:03 Speaker_13
She'd written some songs or poems with songs and asked me to sing, I think it was when I was dancing, she asked me to dance to one of her songs that she was performing at a church or something random and we just stayed in contact and we've been friends since then.

00:18:20 Speaker_10
Give us a simple explanation of London. So you grew up in South London. You said you met in East London.

00:18:25 Speaker_13
Yeah, so I was born in South West London, a place called Stockwell. I went to school in South London, Clapham South, but I moved to East London when I was about 14, Upton Park, East Ham, that kind of area, but properly East London.

00:18:39 Speaker_10
Your whole family did, or just you went to a school or something?

00:18:42 Speaker_13
We all moved to East London.

00:18:44 Speaker_10
Your sister, your mother, and you?

00:18:45 Speaker_13
Yes. My mom bought a house in East London, and that's when we moved. That was a really big moment for us, because it was like, oh, we have our own house.

00:18:52 Speaker_10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the vibe in South London? Like, what are the stereotypes about these pockets of London?

00:18:58 Speaker_13
I thought that South London was pretty chill. I really enjoyed it. I remember there's open spaces. Those are like cool little parks that you can go to. It's very walkable. You can walk all around South London and mostly downhill.

00:19:10 Speaker_10
And just never come home to avoid walking uphill.

00:19:13 Speaker_13
The bus is your best friend at that point. It's lovely going, coming back is a damn nightmare. Or you take a tube. There's loads of cool outdoors activities where I lived. You could go go-karting, stuff like that. Go-karting.

00:19:25 Speaker_13
And East London is really vibrant. It's busy and alive. Loads of different cultures. Is it like the East Village in New York? No, I don't know if there's anywhere like it. You have the African community and different African communities.

00:19:38 Speaker_13
You've got Ghanians, the Nigerians, you have the Pakistanis, you have Bangladesh, you have the Jamaicans there as well. There's like a smorgasbord of different types of people, which means that there's different types of food.

00:19:49 Speaker_13
everywhere and like it's super vibey. I can go to the corner of East Ham right after the tube station and I know that I'm going to walk into the store that has all of the saris and all of the 24 karat golds.

00:19:59 Speaker_13
But then if I cross the road, there's the shop that has the Jamaican patties. And if I walk far enough, there's the auntie that does the Nigerian materials. It's like that. And then there's the market, which has everything.

00:20:10 Speaker_10
This is where Kirby's mom's shop was, I think.

00:20:12 Speaker_13
I love it in East Ham because of how easy it is to just get everything.

00:20:17 Speaker_13
But then next door, Larry, who's like the plumber who fixes your roof and your backyard if he needs it, who's very, very Essex, who sounds like this and wants to talk to you about what the weather's been like, is also there.

00:20:32 Speaker_13
So you have all of these people who sort of exist in the same way. And then West Ham stadiums over there. What you call soccer, we call football.

00:20:40 Speaker_10
Yeah, right. Which goes off.

00:20:41 Speaker_13
It goes off.

00:20:42 Speaker_10
Yeah. Especially in the, well, you were born in 87. Maybe they had a past, but there was the whole hoodlamero. It felt like early nineties, maybe.

00:20:50 Speaker_13
Early nineties when I was still very, very young. I think it was Arsenal. That terrible awful thing that happened at the games where people were like, there was a stabbing.

00:20:58 Speaker_10
Yeah. It was terrible. And they were all wearing Burberry. I just learned this recently. That was their thing.

00:21:03 Speaker_13
Yeah, something happened. Because Burberry was not that. Then it became part of that culture. I think it's been, in a way, reclaimed and changed again.

00:21:11 Speaker_10
Beckham has saved it, kind of.

00:21:13 Speaker_13
Beckham saved it, yeah.

00:21:15 Speaker_10
What a style icon.

00:21:15 Speaker_13
We're going to give him props for that.

00:21:17 Speaker_10
That's what got me to buy Burberry's sweater. And Monica got me a beautiful one for Christmas.

00:21:21 Speaker_13
I did. It's changed hands enough that the style has changed enough for it to become, for the aperture on it to become wider.

00:21:30 Speaker_10
Right. Okay, so what age was mom when she moved here? Mom and dad both are from Nigeria. Yes. Mom was 15 during the Civil War.

00:21:38 Speaker_13
Yes, I believe so. Yeah, from war. And then my mom moved to London when she was 24.

00:21:43 Speaker_10
Had she already been a nurse in Nigeria? She did all of that when she got here. She came at 24 with who?

00:21:48 Speaker_13
Herself and her younger sister.

00:21:50 Speaker_10
When she landed, what was the game plan?

00:21:52 Speaker_13
I don't know if she had a game plan. She was just like, arrive, what do I do? And then she was told that she was to do catering, to which she said yes for a second and then was like, I don't know if catering's for me.

00:22:08 Speaker_13
And then studied nursing at King's College, became a nurse. then expanded and kept expanding and then got better and better and then started doing her papers for what we call health visiting.

00:22:21 Speaker_13
There's a position in the UK, I always explain it because I think it's a really beautiful position that everyone should have, called a health visitor.

00:22:28 Speaker_13
And it is a nurse or a nurse who's at the level of what you call a sister at this point, who can make visits to people's homes who have just had children. She will take care of mother and child, make sure the vitals are good.

00:22:44 Speaker_13
Her particular area of expertise was cognitive health. So it's, are your children developing in the right way? Are they able to pick things up? Can they spot color from birth to the age of three before they go to kindergarten?

00:22:56 Speaker_10
Oh, my God. What a preventative step that probably saves a quadrillion dollars. That's different, though, than a postpartum doula. Do you know what a postpartum doula is?

00:23:05 Speaker_13
No, but it's weird because I think those are part of her duties to take care of mother right after birth. When mother comes home with a baby, when parents come home with a baby, that first couple of weeks, months, my mom is the person that you see.

00:23:20 Speaker_03
It's so amazing.

00:23:21 Speaker_13
Right. Weighs the baby the whole lot.

00:23:23 Speaker_10
Probably knows about breastfeeding and all that stuff.

00:23:25 Speaker_13
Breastfeeding the whole lot.

00:23:25 Speaker_03
Yeah, I don't know why we don't have more of that, because that's the whole thing. You take a baby home and you're like, I don't know what to do with it.

00:23:31 Speaker_13
That's when my mom steps in. Yeah. So she will tell you what's next.

00:23:35 Speaker_10
Yeah, that would be of great comfort. Every parent has the moment in the car ride home from the hospital and you're like, holy shit, what's in our backseat?

00:23:41 Speaker_09
Why'd they give this to me? This thing's way too fucking fragile to come to our house.

00:23:46 Speaker_13
Where are the instructions for this?

00:23:48 Speaker_09
This thing needs to be in the ICU. Look how tiny it is.

00:23:51 Speaker_13
I don't know why you don't have this position here, because it's so helpful. Because that bit between birth and kindergarten, it seems like there's nothing in between.

00:23:59 Speaker_05
Yeah.

00:24:00 Speaker_13
Which is so odd to me, because my mom is the person in between. That means that a parent who has postpartum depression, someone who might have been already depressed, someone who is finding it hard to latch, all of that, that's my mom.

00:24:12 Speaker_10
Oh, yeah. And if you fuck up the nutritional aspect of the first three years, like we now know there's so much developmental stuff down river that doesn't happen if certain things aren't met.

00:24:23 Speaker_13
That would be her. And she's very good at it. She's like the child whisperer. It's very strange.

00:24:27 Speaker_10
I would imagine just to compare and contrast that to someone who is in hospice care, right? Where your full-time job is watching people die. The weight of that's got to be something else. She is almost the opposite.

00:24:38 Speaker_10
She's seen all the excitement and the fun and the hopefulness and the future.

00:24:42 Speaker_13
Every day.

00:24:42 Speaker_10
Do you think it has infected her in a positive way?

00:24:44 Speaker_13
I think so. She loves children and children love her. It's really magical to watch. They all just sort of go to her.

00:24:52 Speaker_10
Is she supremely disappointed you're not going to give her a grandchild?

00:24:55 Speaker_13
She might be. And I don't know if she knows yet.

00:24:59 Speaker_04
I think I have to break it to her.

00:25:00 Speaker_13
But the thing is, I want to satisfy that need in a very different way because I do want to be the person that's able to put people through school, take care of young people who need care.

00:25:11 Speaker_13
I do think that's a gift that's come from her because I do think I am actually very good with kids and good with young people. I want to still be nurturing without necessarily being the biological parent.

00:25:22 Speaker_10
Yes, and still be able to have a date night whenever you desire. Correct. Take a vacation. That sounds fun.

00:25:27 Speaker_13
Do you know what I love? I love what Oprah's been able to do, where she essentially has been taking care of these young women, building them up enough for them to move into whatever careers they want to move into. And they're all excellent women.

00:25:42 Speaker_13
I think I aspire to be able to do that.

00:25:44 Speaker_10
Yes. At some point. When do you start singing?

00:25:48 Speaker_13
I start singing at the age of five without realizing that that's actually what I'm doing. I know I'm making sound. I feel very good about the sound I'm making. Good. I like the reaction that people are having because of it.

00:25:59 Speaker_03
So other people are reacting positively. Yes.

00:26:01 Speaker_13
So I know that something is good. I don't necessarily know that it's the most tuneful sound. I just know that I'm having a great time doing it. And I'm seeing people's faces, smiles, applause is happening. Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Approval.

00:26:13 Speaker_10
And there's nothing like being little and going like, wait, I have control. And I feel so disenfranchised and powerless as this little person, but this is a moment in time, I'm in charge. Ooh, it's good.

00:26:25 Speaker_13
It's very good. I think for a little bit, I was just chasing that because it was nice.

00:26:29 Speaker_10
Yes. You're not aware of it then. But when I look back, I also think it's very rare in your life where you can be in control. And I think singing certainly has that. It just happened to me. We saw Wicked. I'm like, OK, I didn't see the musical.

00:26:42 Speaker_10
I don't love musicals. And then fucking Limitless. Oh, fucking come on, let's go. Let it rip. And I'm in. You took complete control of me and whatever baggage I come in with. That's so powerful.

00:26:56 Speaker_13
But the thing is, I don't think I've ever thought of it as control, necessarily. I think I've always thought of it as a way to encourage and connect people with emotion.

00:27:07 Speaker_10
Well, that's the positive way. But I think you're in Capricorn denial.

00:27:10 Speaker_13
Maybe. Maybe I am. And by the way, it can be all things. Yeah.

00:27:14 Speaker_10
It's not singular. It's not binary. It's not like, oh, you like it because of the control or you like it because you make people you love happy. That's part of it.

00:27:20 Speaker_13
I think I love the conversation of singing. I always think there's a real big conversation going on, especially when I'm singing live. It's a big old conversation. I can see it because I'm looking at people's eyes. I am urging them to connect with me.

00:27:34 Speaker_13
I'm trying to tell you this story. I can scream. I can yell. I can whisper. I can caress with my voice. I can do all of those things, but I want the energy exchange. And I guess selfishly, that energy exchange is like a high for me. It's a rush.

00:27:47 Speaker_13
And when I can see that it's happening, there's nothing better than that. It is a really vulnerable place to stand and be like, I'm going to open up myself and I'm going to tell you my stories with my voice. It's just me.

00:27:58 Speaker_13
And that's always a really vulnerable place to be. People don't realize that when you have to sing in front of an orchestra, they either love you or hate you. The orchestra. Why would they hate you?

00:28:08 Speaker_13
Because some singers will come in and there's an entitled thing that people come to an orchestra with where it's like, I'm the singer, you play behind me. You're serving me.

00:28:16 Speaker_10
Exactly. I'm the star.

00:28:17 Speaker_13
when actually it's the complete opposite. It's not that at all. You're all in it together. The music doesn't make sense without them, and they don't make sense without you. They can play the song, but the lyrics communicate as well.

00:28:31 Speaker_13
But they help with the emotion. If you don't do it together, it will feel disjointed. I always get really nervous before I have the conversation, but I always urge myself to do it.

00:28:41 Speaker_13
Before we even start rehearsal, the first thing I ask the orchestra to do is to let me come with you and let's do this together because I'm not going to do this alone. And if you're sat there not enjoying this, everyone's going to feel it. Right.

00:28:54 Speaker_13
Because there's 20 of them and only one of me. And if 20 of them aren't enjoying it and if they can't go with it, the audience will feel that immediately. And we're off in the wrong direction.

00:29:03 Speaker_10
Now I know nothing about this, just from the outside, is their knee-jerk fear that we're playing math, right?

00:29:09 Speaker_10
We have the sheet music in front of us and it goes this way to this tempo, but the singer has more latitude and the singer can individualize it. The saxophonist can't individualize it, nor can the oboist.

00:29:20 Speaker_10
So is it that sometimes they're like, all right, this person's going to come in and they're going to do whatever the fuck they want. And we're stuck in this grid and then we're going to try to catch them, but then we're going to fall back.

00:29:28 Speaker_10
Is it that, is that their fear that they're going to be doing something that is different from what you're doing?

00:29:32 Speaker_13
Yes, and I think the actual fear is that the singer who comes in, who does have the latitude, isn't respectful of the fact that they have maths to do as well. They have a box to stay in.

00:29:42 Speaker_13
You can have your latitude, but if you're aware of, I need to make sure I make it back to here.

00:29:47 Speaker_10
You gotta stick your landing every time. And if you don't... I just got a point. That means you really agree with me. You're pointing right at my face.

00:29:53 Speaker_13
If you don't and you're just all over the place and you're not paying attention, you're not looking at the conductor, you're not listening... You're in your own selfish world. Exactly. Now we're not doing this together.

00:30:01 Speaker_13
Now you're just doing whatever the hell you want to do and I'm over here playing these notes.

00:30:05 Speaker_10
We should just leave.

00:30:05 Speaker_13
Why are we even here? You're doing this on your own. You don't need us.

00:30:08 Speaker_10
And what percentage, if you just had to guess, how many do you think are respectful?

00:30:12 Speaker_13
I think very few. A lot of singers just get excited that they get to sing in front of an orchestra.

00:30:16 Speaker_10
And they're nervous.

00:30:17 Speaker_13
And they're nervous. They haven't really done it before. Sometimes an orchestra is a novelty to a lot of singers.

00:30:21 Speaker_10
And in their defense, if it doesn't work out, no one's going like, the oboists suck tonight. They're going to say the singers suck. You are carrying the weight of the whole performance.

00:30:28 Speaker_13
Yes, but the weight becomes a hell of a lot lighter when you know it's not just you.

00:30:32 Speaker_10
Right.

00:30:33 Speaker_03
When you say you wanted to connect, that's your main goal when you're up there. Did you feel like when you were younger, you had a hard time connecting outside of that realm? Was it an escape?

00:30:42 Speaker_03
I mean, it doesn't seem like it because you're easy to talk to, but I don't know if you were introverted or shy and that was your outlet.

00:30:48 Speaker_13
I wasn't shy. I was very bossy.

00:30:51 Speaker_10
Yeah. Baby boss. Yeah. So is Monica.

00:30:54 Speaker_13
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was very bossy. I knew exactly what I needed to do and what I wanted. And if I didn't like something, I was the worst version of a Capricorn that could exist.

00:31:06 Speaker_06
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00:34:46 Speaker_03
You have some Virgo in you, too. I'm probably.

00:34:48 Speaker_13
Yeah, I would just say what I thought. And sometimes that would not be.

00:34:54 Speaker_03
It would not be nice.

00:34:55 Speaker_13
Yeah. I wasn't a mean kid. I just was really honest all the time.

00:35:00 Speaker_10
Yeah. Can I defend us for a second? Yeah. So it's an easy mix up. What I value the most is the truth, please. And I prefer an inconvenient truth than I do a flowery lie. Just don't do it to me.

00:35:13 Speaker_10
But I have to acknowledge for other people, that's not the case. They're not interested in that. And that's also fair.

00:35:19 Speaker_03
Because it depends on where you're coming from. You have that, Dax has that hang up, I guess I'll call it, or obsession or whatever.

00:35:25 Speaker_09
Character defect.

00:35:26 Speaker_03
No, it's not a defect, but because you were told things that weren't true. I felt like there's a lot of deception. Yeah, you had to figure out what was true and what wasn't true. And so you seek the truth. So it comes from somewhere, that need.

00:35:39 Speaker_10
Yeah, we're blaming January, but maybe there's more.

00:35:41 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think it might be a little more than January. Because we're all doing that. The best way to survive in the world. And so why truth for you?

00:35:49 Speaker_13
I think it comes from my own past and my history with my dad and all of those things. Maybe feeling a little lied to in that expectation of a parent and not getting it.

00:36:02 Speaker_10
Do you have this chip on your shoulder? Do you remember being young and them telling you some kid safe thing that you saw right through? And it felt so disrespectful, like, I know what's going on and you're trying to fool me.

00:36:14 Speaker_10
Did you have that sense of like, you're treating me too young? I know what's going on.

00:36:17 Speaker_13
I was a clever kid, so I didn't necessarily need much babying. So when a person did baby me, it still pisses me off.

00:36:24 Speaker_10
Oh, how sweet of you.

00:36:25 Speaker_13
I can't stand it. Yeah.

00:36:29 Speaker_10
Yeah, it's rough.

00:36:30 Speaker_13
Please don't call me cute. I haven't been cute in a long time.

00:36:32 Speaker_10
Well, it depends what your association with the word cute is.

00:36:36 Speaker_13
A small squirrel. Cute. My dogs, who are five pounds and eight pounds, cute. Vulnerable too. Vulnerable. You know, some babies, cute. Do you think that's a small person complex thing? I think it's a small person complex thing to other people.

00:36:51 Speaker_13
I know I'm short. I'm very aware of being a small five foot one person. But it's when people think because you're small, you're also very young and dumb. The two things don't go together just because I'm small. You know what I mean? I'm good.

00:37:04 Speaker_03
I have that too. I'm like, don't underestimate this. But then I think sometimes I'm too critical or harsh or you need to respect me. Do you ever feel like you swing?

00:37:15 Speaker_13
I try not to swing. When someone's like, you look so much bigger on stage, I understand what that means. I think if you'd told me that 10 years ago, I would have been like, what do you mean?

00:37:24 Speaker_13
But now I understand what you mean by someone's presence when they're in performance mode, as opposed to when you meet them. They're two different things. So the look of someone changes when they're in their sort of element.

00:37:37 Speaker_03
Yes.

00:37:38 Speaker_13
They do seem bigger. You can't help it. And that's what happens. So I totally understand what that means.

00:37:44 Speaker_10
This is all very comedic, though, because that's your bag. That's what you were handed. And that's what you're dealing with. So mine is universally when I meet someone in real life, they go, oh, my God, you're so much bigger in real life.

00:37:55 Speaker_10
So weirdly, I'm so much bigger in real life than they see me on screen. So if I wanted, if I'm in the mood, I could go like, I'm not powerful on screen or I'm not. Let that be a whole thing.

00:38:05 Speaker_10
If you choose, you could really take a personal or something's going on. And what's really complicates it all, not for me as much, because I am given the best benefit of the doubt that a human on planet earth can be given. I'm a tall white dude.

00:38:17 Speaker_10
But if I'm short and black and British, how am I to know what's actually at play here? Is it just normal humanness or is it some kind of bigotry?

00:38:27 Speaker_13
What's happening? The thing is, it's very hard to know. And at any point, it could be either one of those things.

00:38:32 Speaker_10
Yes.

00:38:33 Speaker_13
Or all of it. Yeah. Because sometimes it is. You're so sweet. Oh, my goodness. I didn't expect you to be.

00:38:38 Speaker_10
You're so sweet or you're so articulate or you're so smart. I mean, these are very dog whistly.

00:38:43 Speaker_13
You're so well spoken. Oh, my God. I love the way you speak. How else am I supposed to speak? But what's tricky.

00:38:48 Speaker_12
What were you expecting?

00:38:49 Speaker_10
Here's what's tricky. There's the historical context of that comment. Basically, what I'm saying is I was expecting you to sound dumb, yet you do speak very appealingly.

00:38:58 Speaker_13
Yes.

00:38:59 Speaker_10
Objectively. Again, how are you to know what the hell's going on?

00:39:03 Speaker_13
I like to think I'm somewhat discerning and you can tell by the way someone says something and the intention behind it. I think you can always sense

00:39:13 Speaker_13
it through the way a person approaches you and what they're trying to say and the context through which they say it. I also just try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. If I was to run around going, what are you trying to say?

00:39:25 Speaker_13
The whole time, I would be exhausted. And some of this is exhausting as it is.

00:39:31 Speaker_03
It's a pick your battles.

00:39:32 Speaker_13
This is not the fight I want to even get into. And sometimes it's just a, yeah, thank you so much. Right.

00:39:38 Speaker_10
I think the real move is to just file all of it into, that's their stuff and it's not my stuff. So my little thing is I'd say at least half the people that come up to me in public, they have come up to me to say, hey, I love your wife.

00:39:55 Speaker_10
And I go, oh yeah, me too. I don't really know what else to say. You just flagged me down to like, I guess, carry that message on to her. But the truth is, many of those people, they don't know what to say.

00:40:06 Speaker_10
And people are coming up to Kristen and saying, I love your husband. Now, she is objectively more famous than me, so I could let that lower my self-esteem. Or I could go like, oh yeah, people say it to her too. None of it means anything.

00:40:15 Speaker_10
They're panicked.

00:40:15 Speaker_13
What they actually want to say is, I think you're great. And I watch your shows. And I know what about you and they want to have a whole conversation and nothing comes out.

00:40:24 Speaker_10
Yes.

00:40:24 Speaker_13
But I love your wife. Yeah, exactly.

00:40:27 Speaker_10
Now it's all fine. And at some point you just have to make a decision for yourself. It's like, well, this could continue to rattle me or I could enjoy my life. Yeah.

00:40:36 Speaker_10
But if you're a justice warrior, like I am not in the popular sense, but if there's an injustice, I'm running towards.

00:40:42 Speaker_13
I'm telling you, this is Gavagord shit. It really is. But you suffer from it.

00:40:49 Speaker_10
I suffer from it. The person doesn't suffer from it.

00:40:52 Speaker_13
No, they go home afterwards. They're like, OK, that was good. That was a great interaction.

00:40:56 Speaker_10
And what they probably want to really say, and they're not even sure how to say this, I'm short circuiting. You're a person that's on my TV that's now in three dimension.

00:41:03 Speaker_13
It's a complete collapse of reality for them.

00:41:07 Speaker_03
I think a more generous take is that they are actually saying, I've invested part of my life in your life. I know about you. I know you have a wife and I really like her too. And I find you interesting enough that I've given you my time.

00:41:21 Speaker_03
That's really what they're trying to say. But then that's what comes out. But I do want to say that I am grateful that you, Dax, just said you recognize that as a tall white Straight man. Yeah, I added that.

00:41:32 Speaker_08
You don't know all my stuff.

00:41:35 Speaker_03
That you can't really imagine what it's like to be in that other position, because I have heard people say, like, they're just being nice. And I'm like, you haven't had 37 years of practice to know when someone's being nice and when someone's not.

00:41:48 Speaker_03
I think it's just great to acknowledge. Maybe you can't know.

00:41:51 Speaker_13
I wonder if there's a world in which you just, like, ask the question.

00:41:55 Speaker_10
Yeah, are you a racist asshole?

00:41:56 Speaker_13
Yeah. Are you being condescending or are you watch them short circuit?

00:42:01 Speaker_10
I don't think I was ever going to admit this out loud. I only told a single person. I knew Monica would be mad at me. I told Eric because he's our shittiest friend. And I knew he would maybe agree with this.

00:42:09 Speaker_03
Now we're telling the world.

00:42:11 Speaker_10
Now I'm going to tell the world. Okay. I was not proud of this, but this did happen. I'm at this burger joint down the street for the win. I love it. I'm there by myself. I'm eating a hamburger. There's a man and his wife and two kind of late teens kids.

00:42:22 Speaker_10
And the man leans over and he goes, I love your wife's commercials. It's cool. They let you be in them. And I'm like, I take like four or five seconds and I'm like, this guy doesn't know what he just said.

00:42:37 Speaker_10
Maybe a minute goes by and I go, hey, did you mean to sound like a dick when you said that to me? Or did you just mess up your delivery? And he goes, what? And I go, well, you said that my wife lets me be in her commercials that I wrote.

00:42:52 Speaker_10
And I just don't know, do you realize how that sounded or did you just get nervous? And then he kind of panicked and he goes, yo, we just love all the work you guys do with mental health.

00:43:02 Speaker_05
And I was like, oh my God. Oh my God.

00:43:09 Speaker_10
And then y'all, we continue to sit there for another 15 minutes and finish our hamburgers.

00:43:14 Speaker_03
You were with this person?

00:43:16 Speaker_10
I was by myself sitting directly next to the guy. He wasn't even a foot from me.

00:43:19 Speaker_13
You'd think he would move. There is something in the asking that made him have to think about it. What he said was rude. Yes.

00:43:28 Speaker_10
I've left out a part. I considered for a moment he might be trying to make a joke. He might know that's obviously an insult. And he's just being familiar with me because he knows me. And maybe a buddy of mine would say that from Detroit.

00:43:39 Speaker_10
And I think I said, were you meaning to be a dick or were you trying to be funny?

00:43:42 Speaker_13
Yes.

00:43:43 Speaker_10
To which he didn't answer. He said, I like the work you guys do with mental health.

00:43:46 Speaker_13
I will say that that is a really simple question to ask. And it's actually a simple answer. Yes or no. It's a yes or no answer. And I don't think he knew the answer.

00:43:54 Speaker_10
I don't think so either.

00:43:56 Speaker_13
I think he said a joke that he realized could be an insult as well, but thought it was like OK to say because he felt familiar.

00:44:03 Speaker_10
And by the time I was asking him, he's already hearing the fight he's having with his wife on the ride home where she's like, why do you have to fucking open your mouth? I'm him in a lot of situations.

00:44:11 Speaker_13
I understand that there are people who short circuit and they just don't know what to say. And sometimes some of the sweetest interactions come out of that.

00:44:19 Speaker_13
My favorite types of those interactions are those where they just say, I don't know what to say. And I have no words, but you're amazing.

00:44:26 Speaker_10
Yeah.

00:44:27 Speaker_13
Because I get it.

00:44:28 Speaker_10
Well, that sentence weirdly conveys more emotion than any other one.

00:44:32 Speaker_13
Exactly. I'm really overwhelmed. I don't really know what to say because it's so honest. It's so endearing and it's so real.

00:44:39 Speaker_13
There are times when you're like, I don't know what to say here, but I know that this is a really cool moment and I'm glad you're here. And I'm scared right now. I don't want to say the wrong thing. It's an honest, emotional reaction.

00:44:53 Speaker_13
The flip side of that is someone saying something and they say it in the wrong way. And if you look closely enough, you'll see it in their faces that, oh, my God, what did I just say? Immediately, you'll see it.

00:45:04 Speaker_13
But if that doesn't show up at all, then it's, oh, I said the best thing in the world. And then it's like, did you mean to hurt my feelings?

00:45:11 Speaker_03
Or was that just a moment of you trying to connect? That's a little bit better of a way to phrase it instead of were you trying to be a dick?

00:45:18 Speaker_10
How mad are you at me out of 10?

00:45:20 Speaker_03
I'm not. I'm not mad. But I do think maybe, oh, did you mean to hurt my feelings or were you just trying to be funny? That's the most vulnerable. And you're right. There's one answer.

00:45:30 Speaker_13
There's one answer. You know, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or I just wanted to connect. I'm so sorry. That came out wrong.

00:45:35 Speaker_10
I should let the whole thing slide. I don't think anything productive came out of it.

00:45:39 Speaker_03
Then I came home and I was like... They did have to think about a thing and maybe they won't go to the next person and do something. And say something like that. It's wild.

00:45:46 Speaker_03
Before you guys came up, we were talking about fame and newer celebrities are pushing back on fame.

00:45:53 Speaker_10
The social contract of it all.

00:45:54 Speaker_03
Yes, they're building a bigger boundary. And I think it's very interesting.

00:45:58 Speaker_10
Well, I imagine you are dealing with something different than me. Well, now currently what we deal with, but prior to this show, when I was just an actor, occasionally people were moved by what I did on Parenthood. They laughed a lot at stuff I did.

00:46:12 Speaker_10
They didn't have cathartic emotional breakthroughs. You know, your lane in particular, I think, is going to warrant an asymmetric connection where it's like you really connected with my soul and opened up something.

00:46:24 Speaker_10
And I don't even know what to do with this. We have it from the show. I just did a bunch of meet and greets for my beer company, and I met so many fucking beautiful listeners of the show.

00:46:32 Speaker_10
And they're saying, like, my brother OD'd or I've repaired my relationship with my parents, their addicts, you know, this kind of stuff. And I'm presuming that's the level of connection people are having with you.

00:46:43 Speaker_10
And I love it, cherish it, feel so lucky to be receiving it. And it's very emotionally exhausting.

00:46:50 Speaker_13
Yeah, I think for me that particular kind of connection has been happening since The Color Purple really and truly.

00:46:57 Speaker_13
So that kind of cathartic release and people's stories and people coming together, breakups, the stories of abuse, those things have come up and people have been really open with me about

00:47:10 Speaker_13
the things they've been going through because of these women that I've been able to play and the stories that we get to tell. And during my concerts as well, people come together. There's something that happens in these spaces.

00:47:22 Speaker_13
I'm really grateful that that is what people experience with me. But I do have to be, like, protective. Yeah, because otherwise I'll just arms open wide all day.

00:47:35 Speaker_10
I think it's like when someone writes a cancer survival memoir that's popular. Inevitably, what you're going to hear when you meet people who loved it is their cancer journey or their parents' cancer journey, which is totally appropriate.

00:47:46 Speaker_10
But also it's a lot.

00:47:47 Speaker_13
You can't carry all those people. Yeah. And it's very hard not to because I actually care every time someone takes the time to tell me a story, I'm listening.

00:47:55 Speaker_13
I feel their feelings because there's nothing worse than trying to tell someone a story and them not even bothering to like look you in the face.

00:48:01 Speaker_10
No, then you're invisible.

00:48:03 Speaker_13
And I never want anyone to feel like that with me. So I take a lot of time to speak with people and be with people after shows. And I can be there for like an hour and just be there with people.

00:48:16 Speaker_10
No, your only solution is to not leave your house. It's not healthy.

00:48:19 Speaker_13
So after those shows, after those performances, whenever I've had all of that, outside of it, I have to find spaces for me to just be like me, find places where I could be meditative.

00:48:31 Speaker_13
And for me, running or walking gives me a space to just like, I'm just going to think I'm going to reconfigure my brain. I'm going to free up some space for myself because it's really the only way I can do it.

00:48:43 Speaker_10
I remember being depressed in my 20s living in Santa Monica and just kind of hopeless. And I'd be like, just walk out your door and just walk. And I'd walk like five miles. And I get back, I'm like, OK, yeah, I can keep going.

00:48:55 Speaker_10
What a magical thing to walk.

00:48:56 Speaker_13
It's so great. It has really helped me. I went to Greece and I filmed a little film called Drift, and that was really terrifying and hard and heartbreaking, the whole lot.

00:49:10 Speaker_13
And what I would do every day before we would start filming is either run or walk miles. And it would just sort of reset everything. The practice has just never changed. That's great.

00:49:21 Speaker_10
At some point for your mental health, you're going to have to, like, do some silly something. some silly something. Yeah, because Drift, Harriet, fucking Color Purple, like you're kind of living.

00:49:32 Speaker_13
If we think about it, even Wicked isn't really a silly project.

00:49:35 Speaker_10
No, you're getting your ass kicked.

00:49:37 Speaker_13
Yeah. I'm pulling out everything from the depth of me. I think on the outside, people go, oh, it's fun. And then they get in there like, what?

00:49:45 Speaker_10
What is great about Wicked, and again, I can't believe I'd never seen the musical, but I didn't know anything about the story, which was great.

00:49:51 Speaker_13
I really appreciate people who have not seen it at all and are coming to the movie fresh.

00:49:56 Speaker_10
Can I tell you, I went back to our interview with Adina and she told this crazy story. You know, she got really hurt on stage one time and then they had to rush her to the hospital. And she was saying this in the interview. I'm like, I'm all green.

00:50:06 Speaker_10
And I'm like, I don't know what that means. She can't really be all green.

00:50:09 Speaker_03
Oh, you didn't know. I didn't know.

00:50:11 Speaker_10
I didn't even know she was all green in there. Yeah. And then I saw you and I was like, oh, my God. Now that story makes sense. She was in the ER completely green.

00:50:18 Speaker_03
That's fucking in her. Oh, funny.

00:50:22 Speaker_10
And it's such a great I don't want to call it a trope that feels dismissive, but it's a great architecture to watch someone just fucking take it on the chin. It's gut wrenching. I hate it, especially the Justice Warrior me.

00:50:31 Speaker_10
I want you to go like, hey, fuck all y'all. I'm better than all y'all. I'm maddened by it. And it's so sticky and good and great story.

00:50:39 Speaker_03
We got to go see it in a theater and it was so exciting. And I saw the play many years ago. I guess I forgot the whole thing. It started and I was like, what? I don't remember any of this.

00:50:49 Speaker_03
And then we were with a friend and she went to the bathroom and she came back and I was like, this movie is so sad. I hate what is happening to her. You do such a good job of not playing it with pity, but you feel for that kid. And I was like, I'm her.

00:51:04 Speaker_03
I was like, so, you know, I'm her, and I hate this for everybody, especially me. It was fantastic.

00:51:12 Speaker_13
You're so good in it. Thank you. But I do have to do something silly at some point. I don't know what the silly thing is. I just did a really cool, I mean, there is silliness in it and I had a great time doing it.

00:51:23 Speaker_13
We did an episode of Poker Face with Natasha Lyonne and Brian Johnson and I had the best time doing it. And there is a lot of silliness. I got to use my funny bone there. But I think drama is always going to follow me.

00:51:36 Speaker_13
I think the dramatic bone is always going to be there. There's always going to be heart in something.

00:51:40 Speaker_10
This is not a popular opinion that I have, but I have it. And I don't know where this comes from in me, but I'm a white trash kid and I got to grow up and be free of that.

00:51:50 Speaker_10
And I don't have to tell the story of every socially and financially disenfranchised person. And I have always felt a little bit of. sympathy, if you're famous and you're black, there feels like some obligation. Like you can't not be political.

00:52:06 Speaker_10
That's just not on the table for you. And although I think it's great to pursue those things, I also think it's yet another thing that's not fair about the whole experience. You finally transcended this.

00:52:14 Speaker_10
And now you also need to be a social leader for me. And for you, I imagine like telling these stories, do you feel some obligation? Like, yeah, I'm the best person to tell the color purple story. I'm obliged to do so.

00:52:27 Speaker_13
There is a part of me that is like, yes, sometimes I want to just do some great stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the politics of me being a Black queer woman. Fashionista. I don't know. But I don't know if I have that choice.

00:52:43 Speaker_13
And so I kind of just accept it and try my very, very best to pick the things that have the widest view of what humanness looks like. I want to dance in the gray area always. I'm not particularly interested in characters that are only liked.

00:53:00 Speaker_13
I'm not particularly interested in characters that are just heroes. I want the complicated, icky space. The Gary Oldman career. I want that. I want to be able to do all of those things, and I want it to be okay.

00:53:13 Speaker_13
I have less worry about it than often sometimes studios and streamers do. They're like, oh, but what makes her redeemable? Do we like her? And I'm always like, I don't know if the character cares if you like her or not.

00:53:24 Speaker_10
And I think that's okay. Also, just take a look at Sopranos.

00:53:27 Speaker_13
Yeah.

00:53:27 Speaker_10
The most successful show ever.

00:53:28 Speaker_13
Nobody asked if Tony Soprano is likable. We just watch it. Nobody asked if American Psycho was going to be liked. I think it's okay if we can get those kinds of characters where the face is mine.

00:53:39 Speaker_13
We'll all be okay if we start really diving into those spaces and not being like, it's because she's black. It's just because she's human and she has darkness and light in her.

00:53:50 Speaker_10
That's what's kind of clever about Wicked is she's green.

00:53:55 Speaker_13
Yeah. It's all the difference that a person can do. Yeah. I loved the idea of being able to play her because There was no requirement for me to play her as just good or perfect the entire time. She makes mistakes. She fucks up. She gets it wrong.

00:54:11 Speaker_10
Well, Ariana is perfect. Well, but we immediately don't like that.

00:54:15 Speaker_13
And that's the thing. They're both fallible beings. They're both fallible humans. They rub up against each other. They're not great with each other either. It's not like Glinda's horrible and Elphaba's doesn't give it back. They give it to each other.

00:54:27 Speaker_13
They're mean to each other for a long time. They say horrible things to each other until they realize, oh, we feel just as outcast as each other in spaces. Yours is more obvious. Mine is not. I'm trying to live up to something that is beyond me.

00:54:44 Speaker_13
And I can't get to a place that you are in. And I'm in the difference my entire life. So the experience of the world is very, very different.

00:54:54 Speaker_10
Well, the most important thing is neither is thriving from the identity they've taken on.

00:54:57 Speaker_13
No, because neither one of them at the beginning actually take on who they're meant to be.

00:55:02 Speaker_13
It takes them having to be like, this could be to my complete destruction, but I have got to be myself because it's the only way that I can actually fully exist. And that's when shit really takes off.

00:55:15 Speaker_10
Yeah. Oh, my God. So good. We love John Chu. We've known John forever. He's the director.

00:55:20 Speaker_13
Truly is one of the most incredible people on the planet. Just a good human being. Watching him work is really fun. He's so excited by it. And he's like finding things at the same time we're finding things and then the ideas keep going back and forth.

00:55:36 Speaker_13
Should we try this? Do you want to try it one more time? And it's just so thrilling the entire time. And this is what it's like for months and months on end. And the thing is, he won't say he's tired. I'll be like, John, you're tired.

00:55:49 Speaker_13
I need you to sit down. You need to take a break. Have you had something to eat? What are you eating? This is trash. I'm going to get you some vegetables and some like nuts.

00:55:59 Speaker_13
Let's get you some sugar free sweets instead of having like all that sugar because it's not going to help. He's the kind of person that you want to be well because he wants you to be well. He's creating this atmosphere that is so infectious.

00:56:11 Speaker_13
And it sounds really cliche and very facetious, but it's not. That's how we did this. And that's not to say that it was easy.

00:56:17 Speaker_13
It's just to say that because the atmosphere was set up in the right way, the things that were difficult were pleasurable at the same time. You could actually enjoy doing the hard work.

00:56:28 Speaker_10
When you're a carpenter and you're building a house, it's hard. Yes. But at fuck is it rewarding? It's like it's all going right. Exactly. And that's so rewarding.

00:56:35 Speaker_03
When people see the movie, it is shocking what he's done. I mean, it is incredible.

00:56:40 Speaker_10
Visually, choreography.

00:56:41 Speaker_03
Oh, my God. I was like, how did he do this? How did he think this? It's incredible. But I can imagine because there's so many moving parts, it'd be easiest for him to just be tough. Yeah. So the fact that he was fun and engaging is a big feat.

00:56:55 Speaker_13
And really caring because he asked me at the very beginning whether I wanted to do the makeup or whether I wanted to do CGI.

00:57:04 Speaker_05
There was a question.

00:57:04 Speaker_13
It was like, so here's the deal. If you do this makeup, it's going to add three hours to your call time every day. And it's going to be hard to do that because these are long days and you're going to add to it. I'm more worried about taking it off.

00:57:18 Speaker_10
Putting it on is one thing.

00:57:19 Speaker_13
The taking it off took an extra hour, hour and a half.

00:57:21 Speaker_10
And is that shit bad for your skin?

00:57:23 Speaker_13
You know what? My skin wasn't the best. So you said yes. I said yeah.

00:57:26 Speaker_10
Why did you say yes? You wanted to look in the mirror and yeah, I get that.

00:57:31 Speaker_13
I didn't want to leave my trailer and have like dots on my face.

00:57:34 Speaker_10
Can I see your hands? I couldn't tell if it was your nails were so long if you were wearing some kind of hand thing.

00:57:38 Speaker_13
No, my nails were done.

00:57:40 Speaker_10
Nothing was happening with your hands.

00:57:41 Speaker_13
Nothing was happening with my hands. I have very long fingers.

00:57:44 Speaker_12
Yeah.

00:57:45 Speaker_10
Very long fingers. Yeah.

00:57:46 Speaker_13
My nails are very long right now.

00:57:47 Speaker_10
Can I ask you a really crazy question? It's inappropriate. Go on. When you're wiping your butt. I knew you would ask that question. I know, but everyone thinks it and everyone's afraid to ask it.

00:57:55 Speaker_13
Because no, no one's afraid to ask it. Oh, is everyone asking that? Everybody asks that question.

00:57:59 Speaker_10
All girls though?

00:58:00 Speaker_13
No. Everybody asks that question.

00:58:03 Speaker_10
Very cliche.

00:58:03 Speaker_13
And my answer is nobody uses just their fingers to wipe their backside. You use tissue. Oh, sure. Correct. And you wipe.

00:58:12 Speaker_10
Yeah. I guess my question is, does the tissue go on the tip of the fingernails or do you try to get the tissue on the pads of the fingers? Great, great, great, great. We're getting somewhere. Yeah. And then OK.

00:58:21 Speaker_10
And then you're just feeling a little tickle of the nails on the crack of your butt sometimes.

00:58:25 Speaker_13
No, because the tissue's there. You don't feel none of that.

00:58:28 Speaker_10
I wonder, okay, what I would do if I were you is I would wrap my whole, I'd make a mitten.

00:58:33 Speaker_03
I fold. Oh, you're a folder. I bunch.

00:58:36 Speaker_10
Now, are you offended by that question? Are you like, I get it.

00:58:39 Speaker_03
I get it. I'm annoyed by it.

00:58:41 Speaker_13
I'm like, come on, guys. But I get it, but it's also like, I'm a functioning adult, and I've never walked around smelling like, you know.

00:58:49 Speaker_10
No one thinks that. In fact, everyone thinks you smell so good, it begs the question, how are you wiping your tush?

00:58:54 Speaker_03
Very well. What they're saying when they're asking is, I would never be able to wipe properly. It's a problem with them.

00:59:01 Speaker_13
That's a problem with them. And here's the thing, there are people who do not have nails who need to check how they're wiping. Big time. I agree. You know what I'm saying?

00:59:08 Speaker_10
This isn't a pass on everyone without nails on any stretch. So everyone's asking that question.

00:59:14 Speaker_13
Everyone's asking that question.

00:59:15 Speaker_10
I kind of thought everyone would think that, but not be bold.

00:59:17 Speaker_13
No, no, people are bold. They are.

00:59:19 Speaker_10
I knew you could handle it.

00:59:20 Speaker_13
People are always like, how do you get anything done with those nails? And I'm like, I mean, I'm here. Yeah, I got here somehow. I'm dressed.

00:59:28 Speaker_10
I love them. I was just thinking of the ergonomics in that exact situation. Thank you so much. But that's fine.

00:59:32 Speaker_13
But yeah, because the nails would change with the scene. Sometimes you would shoot two different things in one day. So the nails will change in the middle of the day.

00:59:38 Speaker_10
Can we go back in time for a second? Yeah. You originally went to University of East London. That's right. And you were majoring in psychology of music or music psychology. What is music psychology?

00:59:51 Speaker_13
It is the study of the way in which music affects the psychological state of a person based on where they live, their social standing. What's the word I'm looking for? based on like elitism, socioeconomic standing, status.

01:00:07 Speaker_13
And then when you get down to the fine points of it, what is within music itself. So the way in which the note structures can affect the way a person hears the music and what it does to a person's mood and a person's psyche.

01:00:19 Speaker_13
So this is sort of layman's terms. If you hear a song in a minor key and the lyrics happen to be sad or without lyrics, it tends to evoke a sad emotion. Or if you hear music with a major key, even if the lyrics are sad, you will evoke a happy mood.

01:00:34 Speaker_13
There's a song and I hate to pick this, but I pick it because it's the one thing on my mind and she's with me all the time. The song called One Last Time that Ariana Grande has.

01:00:44 Speaker_12
One last time I need to be the one that takes you home. Yeah.

01:00:48 Speaker_10
I'm so happy. I was praying you would sing at least for a second and you just did. So thank you. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. We are supported by BetterHelp. There are so many things to love about December. It's holiday season.

01:01:08 Speaker_10
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01:01:14 Speaker_10
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01:01:23 Speaker_03
Therapy is essential to me during the holidays especially because I generally am going home.

01:01:31 Speaker_10
Right, yes.

01:01:32 Speaker_03
And I need sort of some stability. And guidance. And guidance to stay nice.

01:01:39 Speaker_10
Well, if you've ever been considering starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's completely online, so it's easy to integrate into your schedule. BetterHelp is flexible, too. It's easy to book or move appointments on their platform.

01:01:52 Speaker_10
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Get free shipping on qualified orders. See site for more details. If you want to sing more at any point, let me know.

01:04:33 Speaker_13
But her version, which is the seminal version, is in a major key and it's up-tempo. When you hear it, you don't realize that it's actually a heartbreak song. People dance.

01:04:46 Speaker_13
Then there is a band called Third Story who changed the key and took the tempo right down. And now it becomes a heartbreak song. And now people are crying. And now you make them cry.

01:04:57 Speaker_03
Whoa, that's fascinating.

01:04:59 Speaker_10
Yeah, it is. And do you find there's two different camps of people? So Monica and I are in different camps. I'm obsessed with music. It's a huge part of my life, but it's generally the music, the singing. Sure. It's not the lyrics.

01:05:09 Speaker_13
Yes, yes, yes.

01:05:10 Speaker_10
And so Monica's heavily driven by lyrics. I have even shared a couple of songs with Monica and she'll be like, well, this song's a real bummer. And I'm like, it is. And then I like, oh, yeah, it's kind of about battered.

01:05:21 Speaker_10
Right, right, right, right, right. I completely missed it.

01:05:23 Speaker_13
I'm the camp that sits right in between. Because I think both of those things have inherent value. Let's take Mozart's Lacrimosa. Nobody knows what those lyrics are.

01:05:33 Speaker_13
Lacrimosa means to cry, but you wouldn't know that unless you go and look up the lyrics and you know Latin, right? But you know that the music itself is deeply sad. That's what it sounds like. So it's sad.

01:05:52 Speaker_10
You know you're sad.

01:05:52 Speaker_13
But the lyrics, though they mean to cry, it is actually about forgiveness in a way, you know? So it's actually not a sad song, necessarily.

01:06:01 Speaker_10
It's a double trick.

01:06:02 Speaker_13
Which is why I'm in both camps, because even the happiest song can actually mean something very, very different. We can dance when we're happy. We can dance when we're sad. Both have value.

01:06:12 Speaker_13
Like, I'll listen to the lyrics all day long, but sometimes I just want to hear the music. Sometimes it's the music that moves me.

01:06:17 Speaker_10
Yeah. One of the most interesting things about music to me, this is what I studied in college, which is cultural anthropology. I'll be in other countries and I'm listening to the music that everybody loves.

01:06:28 Speaker_10
And I'm like, how on earth do they like this music? Right, right, right. It's so cultural. Largely when I'm in Mexico and I hear that it is all German inspired, their musical genre in Mexico is polka dry.

01:06:40 Speaker_12
Yes, yes.

01:06:41 Speaker_10
So the bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum. And I go like, yeah, if I grew up in Mexico, I would love this music. And that is fascinating. You think a music somehow objective to some degree, and it's not.

01:06:53 Speaker_13
I think it's what's really interesting about what's happening with there's a music called Afrobeats, which is happening right now, and it seems to be growing tentacles and spreading out everywhere.

01:07:02 Speaker_13
Whereas before, I grew up with it and it's developed and it evolves and it changes ever so much. So it's become a little bit popularized. But if you go back 50 years, the rhythms are still very similar. The tonal qualities are still very similar.

01:07:16 Speaker_13
So you still hear the same types of notation, but lyrically it becomes different. And the way we've put it together has become different and young people have started to listen to it.

01:07:24 Speaker_13
That was why I was interested in this particular subject, but I think I was too early for it. I needed to go and do the thing I'm meant to do, which is this. Because you bailed, right? I didn't even go to RADA straight away.

01:07:34 Speaker_13
I went to like a Young Actors Company program at a local theater because I was like, I'm not doing this. I don't think this is right for me. So I left and I went to this Young Actors Company and at the Young Actors Company,

01:07:45 Speaker_13
I was, I mean, I use the word forced fondly to go and study at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. And I say it because this wonderful mentor of mine would not allow me to do this particular program unless I signed up for an audition.

01:08:00 Speaker_03
Wow.

01:08:01 Speaker_13
She blackmailed you. Yeah. She was like, you sign up for an audition, you come to this, you don't, you can't. And I was like,

01:08:10 Speaker_05
Fine.

01:08:11 Speaker_13
But grudgingly signed in to do an audition thinking this will be short-lived. It's not going to happen. I'm not going to get in. We're caught.

01:08:18 Speaker_10
Really quick. Why didn't you want to go there?

01:08:19 Speaker_13
There was no point because I was not going to get in.

01:08:21 Speaker_10
OK, there we go. I was not going to get in.

01:08:22 Speaker_13
I just asked him to get rejected. You mean me, a girl from southwest London who moved to east London is now going to go to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts? In what world? That's a nonsense idea. Yeah. No one's ever flagged it for me before.

01:08:34 Speaker_13
So why on earth? It's not going to happen. And then I got in.

01:08:37 Speaker_10
Wow. And did you like it immediately? Because you're now the vice president. What does that mean?

01:08:42 Speaker_03
You are?

01:08:43 Speaker_10
Is that a ceremonial position? How on earth do you have time to be a vice president of a fucking college? This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

01:08:52 Speaker_13
It's so, I swear to you, it's the most ridiculous thing in the world. Because here's the thing. My time at RADA was not easy. I was the oddball. I was a true East London girl who just was myself. And I was like the one girl who really loved music.

01:09:06 Speaker_13
And like I left I was going to do a backing vocal gig before I came to the school that was going to pay for the school. And they said, no, I was doing gigs at night. And I was the only person that was doing that kind of thing in this school.

01:09:19 Speaker_13
So I really had figured out my jobs.

01:09:21 Speaker_10
This is John Batiste, too. Do you remember when he's at Juilliard and he wants to be performing?

01:09:25 Speaker_03
This is for people who are in America and don't know. It is Juilliard, basically. Yes, correct.

01:09:29 Speaker_10
Yeah, it's the same space, the same level. It had Royal in the title, and I assume that.

01:09:34 Speaker_13
Yeah, they might have some sort of connection. I think they have a little connection. If not, I'm trying to make it happen. Well, that should be one of your tasks as vice president. I've given it to myself. I think that might be a really good idea.

01:09:44 Speaker_13
Like exchange studenting, maybe. Some professor swaps.

01:09:47 Speaker_12
Maybe.

01:09:48 Speaker_13
Everyone wants six months in London. Here's the thing. I would go to Juilliard and sit and chat with the students because I do actually teach at RADA. Wow.

01:09:55 Speaker_03
You currently teach?

01:09:57 Speaker_13
I currently teach.

01:09:58 Speaker_03
Oh, my God, the world's.

01:09:59 Speaker_10
Yeah, you're going to kill yourself.

01:10:02 Speaker_03
You need to write about your time. Are you the type that'll just run yourself into the ground?

01:10:06 Speaker_13
I try not to, but I think it's going to happen. I think it's going to happen this year.

01:10:10 Speaker_09
This is the year collapse.

01:10:13 Speaker_13
I do think it's going to happen because there's just like a lot going on and I'm actively trying to work at RADA and do the things I need to because I don't believe in taking on a title if you're actually not going to do the work.

01:10:22 Speaker_13
I vehemently detest that. I don't want to be the vice president just because... Ceremonial. I'm not interested. And I know that there's stuff to be done. And I also love working with the students at RADA.

01:10:36 Speaker_13
And I try and get there every year for at least a week intensive workshop with the third year students. What I want to do is meet them in the first year, have a little time with them in the second, and then have the intensive in the third.

01:10:48 Speaker_13
So there is something that they work with throughout. They're not just meeting me the first time in the third year, but now they'll see me more often because, well, I'm there.

01:10:56 Speaker_10
I want to ask you a very inappropriate question. Were you in love with any of your teachers?

01:11:01 Speaker_13
In love as in in love? Crushes?

01:11:04 Speaker_10
I mean, I was in love with one of mine. Yeah, Monica was in love with one of her teachers. Yes. Still pines for Chubby.

01:11:11 Speaker_03
Yeah, I don't know what he's up to these days, but boy was he attractive and so smart.

01:11:16 Speaker_10
Did you have any crushes on your teachers?

01:11:18 Speaker_03
I don't think so.

01:11:19 Speaker_10
You didn't. That's fair. I didn't have any on mine either.

01:11:22 Speaker_03
No. Theater space is very intimate, though.

01:11:25 Speaker_10
I was only going to ask, like, if I was teaching at 37 at a college, I think I would be mildly like, oh, Jesus, does this person have a crush on me? Because there's a weird magic to the whole thing.

01:11:34 Speaker_13
I'm going to ignore any of this. I'm going to be like, don't know. Don't want to know.

01:11:39 Speaker_10
Don't tell me. Oh, you have me confused with a human. I am an acting teaching robot.

01:11:44 Speaker_13
I'm also aware of what I'm walking into the school with.

01:11:47 Speaker_10
I think I'd fall in love with you.

01:11:48 Speaker_13
Yeah, no, you are.

01:11:49 Speaker_10
Yeah, I think I would. For sure. Yeah.

01:11:51 Speaker_13
But I don't know that people would fall in love with me as a me. I think they're falling in love with the idea.

01:11:56 Speaker_10
But aren't people always falling in love with the idea of the other person? I guess. We fight about this all the time.

01:12:01 Speaker_13
I think so. I think people fall in love with the idea of a person until they allow themselves to fall in love with the actual person.

01:12:07 Speaker_10
Yeah, with great luck. You end up falling in love with the real person. But more often, you go, oh, no, this whole thing was a projection.

01:12:14 Speaker_03
But then if you're on the other side of it, if you're Cynthia, then you're like, oh, this person's in love with me. And then you run the risk of them finding out about the real you and then being like, oh, I'm not interested in that.

01:12:24 Speaker_10
But she'll be doing the same to that person, because that person would have captivated some other fantasy and imagination. So it would be complementary, I think.

01:12:29 Speaker_13
But when it comes to the school of it all, I'm here to teach you and take you through and help you.

01:12:35 Speaker_10
I shouldn't have even asked you that question. You're in a compromised position as the dean of this school. I would never.

01:12:41 Speaker_13
I'm also aware of what I walk in the room with. I know that there's a lot. And I think I'm getting used to what that even is.

01:12:48 Speaker_10
I'm going to suggest someone more likely would think they're in love with you, but what they're in love with is they want to be you. You'd be very aspirational. It's like, I want to be an empowered woman who's got a Tony and a Grammy.

01:13:00 Speaker_10
And so you would represent some kind of fantasy wish fulfillment. And that could be misinterpreted as love as well.

01:13:06 Speaker_13
And the thing is, I would say to that person, you do not want to be me. You want to be the best version of yourself. You don't know if you want to do all the things or go through all the things I've already been through. My shit's made for me.

01:13:18 Speaker_13
But when you're that age, you can't tell.

01:13:21 Speaker_10
Yeah, it's hard.

01:13:23 Speaker_13
And I want to be that. I think for me, in a perfect world, I think I would be like the love child of Cicely Tyson and Barbra Streisand.

01:13:29 Speaker_10
Who's Cicely Tyson? I'm so sorry. I'm very sorry. With all apologies. You don't either? Thank fucking God. I was sure it was a white guy thing.

01:13:37 Speaker_13
I was going to leave you out. You've got to look her up. She passed away a few years ago at like the age of 94, I think it was.

01:13:44 Speaker_10
Oh, that's good.

01:13:44 Speaker_13
She made it to 96.

01:13:47 Speaker_10
What a quitter. She almost made it to 100.

01:13:48 Speaker_13
We really wanted her to get to 100. And she was strong. She was one of the most incredible actresses ever. British? American. Oh. And she shaved her head just like me. Oh. I read her autobiography. It's the most fascinating thing.

01:14:02 Speaker_13
She had a torrid relationship with Miles Davis.

01:14:06 Speaker_10
Oh, that's a wild ride.

01:14:08 Speaker_13
Shows you all about that. She was in Sounder. She was in Roots. Most people probably know her best for How to Get Away with Murder. She was Annalise Keating's mother. Oh. But she's just brilliant.

01:14:19 Speaker_13
The way she used her hair as a statement constantly throughout her life was just really inspiring.

01:14:25 Speaker_13
So whether it was doing bantu knots or getting it cornrolled or shaving it off or leaving it as an afro, there's a really beautiful image of her when she is nominated, I think, for Sounder for the Oscar, where she goes with like flowers in her hair.

01:14:39 Speaker_13
She's special, special, special. So that combination of her and Barbra Streisand, and Barbra Streisand I picked because of

01:14:45 Speaker_13
the renaissance woman effect that she has over her own life and the way in which she was able to translate music and song and acting and do all of this vast arena of things.

01:14:58 Speaker_10
She's one of our few, I always say this about Taylor Swift, when people try to figure out what is the magic that's happening.

01:15:03 Speaker_10
For me, a big part seems like, at least through my little girl's eyes, is that she is a fully formed, self-created matriarchy. And I would argue Barbara was an early, like created her own matriarchy world around herself.

01:15:17 Speaker_10
I can see that as inspirational.

01:15:18 Speaker_03
It seems like you are the combination of them and especially Renaissance, you're the vice president.

01:15:24 Speaker_10
You're an academic.

01:15:25 Speaker_03
You're covering a lot of ground.

01:15:27 Speaker_10
Yeah, leave some for the rest of us, bro. With all this said, how mentally prepared do you feel like you are for Wicked? Because I can't imagine you are.

01:15:37 Speaker_13
I want to kid myself and be like, I'm really ready for it. I think in a way I am. But there's always the aspect that you have no idea what's coming. You can't know the future. I have no idea what this will be full stop. But I think I'm open.

01:15:56 Speaker_13
That's as far as I can take myself. I'm open to the possibilities of what this might be. I'm very, very, very grateful for the chance to do something of this magnitude because it doesn't come along often.

01:16:10 Speaker_10
No. I feel like I have some insight into what you're going to go through, which is I think this thing will be what Frozen was. Yeah.

01:16:18 Speaker_10
And I think you'll have parents for the next five years coming up and complaining to you that their kid will not stop listening to a certain song over and over and over again.

01:16:27 Speaker_05
Right.

01:16:27 Speaker_10
And then I think you'll have a lot of. parents bringing over young children to meet you at the table, but the children have no fucking clue what's going on. I don't understand what you're telling me.

01:16:36 Speaker_03
That's the part that's going to be different and harder perhaps, because when it happens to Kristen, sometimes the kids are like, what? That's not her. That's a person. But you're a person, and they're going to see you as a person.

01:16:49 Speaker_10
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank God you're not green. I know, in real life. You should fuck around one time, just go out as green. When this thing really peaks. You should go set up shop at a cheesecake factory.

01:16:59 Speaker_13
Can you imagine? Insane.

01:17:03 Speaker_10
So I guess I have one remaining question about kind of how you got to this place, because we didn't talk about your childhood as much as I like to. How old were you when mom and dad got divorced?

01:17:12 Speaker_13
Mom and dad didn't get divorced.

01:17:13 Speaker_10
They were never married.

01:17:15 Speaker_13
But I was 16 when my dad decided not to be a part of my life.

01:17:21 Speaker_10
How frequently were you seeing him?

01:17:22 Speaker_13
Maybe two or three times a week. His choice. My mom was really, I think, kind.

01:17:28 Speaker_10
Did not talk shit about him to you?

01:17:30 Speaker_13
Ever.

01:17:30 Speaker_10
That's so nice. My mom did that as well. And as you get older, don't you respect it even more? I completely respect it. It almost seems impossible.

01:17:37 Speaker_13
I honestly can't believe it. And gave him the space to come and visit if he wanted to. We would go over to his from time to time as well. She like really made the space for us if he wanted to build a relationship to build a relationship.

01:17:49 Speaker_13
And he just didn't.

01:17:50 Speaker_10
Was he struggling with stuff?

01:17:52 Speaker_13
No, I think he just was not set up to be a dad. I don't think it was his bag.

01:17:56 Speaker_10
Right.

01:17:57 Speaker_13
I read Jada Pinkett Smith's book, and there is a section in the book where she talks about her father. And it really clicked for me when I read this part. She said that there are some parents who are meant to be parents.

01:18:09 Speaker_13
They're meant to shepherd their children into the world, make sure that they are taken care of and they are good with them. And there are other parents who are meant to literally get them here. And that is it.

01:18:20 Speaker_13
And we can't forget that each parent is still a human being. They are a human being before they're a parent. And I'm okay. That made everything really clear for me.

01:18:29 Speaker_13
That doesn't remove hurts and pain that I had been through and have worked to work through.

01:18:37 Speaker_10
Does it materialize in relationships?

01:18:40 Speaker_13
I think it did.

01:18:41 Speaker_10
But you have your arms around it now.

01:18:43 Speaker_13
But yeah. Thank goodness for good therapists.

01:18:45 Speaker_10
Yeah.

01:18:46 Speaker_13
That shit really helped.

01:18:47 Speaker_10
Were you generally attracted to people? You had some subconscious notion that they were going to abandon you?

01:18:52 Speaker_13
Oh, yeah.

01:18:53 Speaker_10
Yeah. Unavailable people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:18:56 Speaker_13
Yeah.

01:18:57 Speaker_10
Isn't it funny how fucking generic? Oh, yeah. Oh, what's the situation with this kid? OK, I'll tell you exactly what's going to happen in 12 years.

01:19:03 Speaker_13
You know that they're predisposed to, like, actually go away at some point.

01:19:06 Speaker_10
You sense it somehow, but the second you're so hot for somebody, there's a huge clue that there's some parental damage underneath of it.

01:19:13 Speaker_13
That's correct.

01:19:14 Speaker_10
Yeah, yeah.

01:19:14 Speaker_13
Isn't that nuts? It's ridiculous. Until you get your head around it and you get some control on what it is that you're actually looking for, what you're trying to fix in that, it just will keep going.

01:19:24 Speaker_10
Do you agree? I had to go, oh wow, I actually have to actively go the opposite direction of what I want. I got to experiment with that.

01:19:32 Speaker_13
Yeah, I had to be alone for a second. I have to figure out what the heck this is. What am I running away from? What do I want for myself?

01:19:39 Speaker_13
And also, I think I was using for a small amount of time, my career as a conduit to like, find a way to get him back.

01:19:48 Speaker_10
Sure. Look what you missed. Yeah. It's a great engine.

01:19:52 Speaker_13
Look what you gave up. You're going to regret leaving this.

01:19:56 Speaker_10
That kind of thing. What a great motivator that is.

01:19:59 Speaker_13
It's fantastic until it doesn't work anymore.

01:20:01 Speaker_10
That's right.

01:20:02 Speaker_13
Until it leaves you empty. And you're like, what am I actually doing this one? I've not done this for myself. And now I have to figure out how to do this for myself.

01:20:08 Speaker_10
Well, I think one of the great tricks in life that everyone has to figure out is what got you to the party isn't what it's going to keep you at the party. And it's so hard to accept that or believe in that.

01:20:19 Speaker_13
You need a new fuel source. Let's change direction. Pivot. Let's go somewhere else now.

01:20:25 Speaker_10
All blessings to this thing, but it's actually going to get you asked to leave. Yeah. So you seem to have the same, Kristen has a really, really in-depth knowledge of music and reading music and all the math that's associated with music.

01:20:38 Speaker_10
Where did you learn that? Did you learn that at Royal Academy? I learned it at secondary school or high school. You went to a Catholic school?

01:20:45 Speaker_13
I did. So my music teacher there, Miss Rycroft, who is so awesome, no one really understood her, but I really got her.

01:20:53 Speaker_13
She would pretend to be like this curmudgeonly teacher who just didn't like people, but actually she was the funniest, most brilliant, most kind teacher to me ever. She was like, oh, I have your number. Right. I know what you are.

01:21:08 Speaker_13
You are a musician and I'm going to make sure that you're always a musician. I see you. I was like quickly accosted and I learned to play the clarinet. So I learned to read music that way. And then she got me a viola. So I started doing that too.

01:21:23 Speaker_13
And I can't play any of these anymore, but it meant that I could really actually read music and I did music proficiency, all of that stuff. and did graded tests, the whole lot. Sing was happening in concert with all of that. They had a choir.

01:21:36 Speaker_13
I don't know how this happened. And I think it's because of Miss Redcroft. And strangely enough, my science teacher, Mr. Safoje, who somehow put this together, we started singing with a big choir in the UK and we would do like requiems every year.

01:21:53 Speaker_13
I loved doing that because of the big sound of all these voices together. So Requiem is a huge choral piece with all the voices. Tenors, bass, soprano, alto, mezzo-soprano.

01:22:05 Speaker_13
And occasionally you'll have recitatives in between where they're like solo lines that would end up with big choral numbers. And usually it's a long piece written but separated by particular movements. We did Carmina Burana.

01:22:19 Speaker_13
And Carmina Burana, you wouldn't know the name, you would know the sound of Carmina Burana.

01:22:23 Speaker_11
da da da da da da da da

01:22:34 Speaker_03
We're going to pretend like we don't know it, so you just keep going.

01:22:38 Speaker_10
I don't know what you're doing. I bet if you do ten more measures I might get it.

01:22:41 Speaker_13
Have you ever watched Romeo and Juliet, the Baz Lemon version?

01:22:43 Speaker_10
Love.

01:22:44 Speaker_13
That musical big choral thing is that. And we did another piece called The Rutter Requiem by John Rutter, and that is one of my favourite pieces ever. But it contains a piece called P.A. Yesu, and there are like three different P.A. Yesus.

01:22:58 Speaker_13
But these are the pieces that we would do. That's how I learned about classical singing. And so she made me learn Schubert Lieder, the whole lot. So I expanded my classical taste in music at secondary school. Wow.

01:23:10 Speaker_13
Whilst running alongside with everything else and learning how my voice worked elsewhere and just my outside love of music anyways. And my mom is playing Aretha Franklin and Diana Ross in the car.

01:23:22 Speaker_10
Erykah Badu?

01:23:23 Speaker_13
Yeah. And I'm learning all of it.

01:23:24 Speaker_10
How about Window Seat? Can we sing Window Seat?

01:23:26 Speaker_13
Have I got a window seat?

01:23:29 Speaker_08
Don't want nobody next to me.

01:23:32 Speaker_13
I love it.

01:23:33 Speaker_10
I love Erykah Badu.

01:23:35 Speaker_13
She's brilliant. She's one of the artists, singers that has gotten better and better and better as time has gone on. I just recently saw her in concert in London. How late was she? Because I've seen her four times.

01:23:47 Speaker_10
She wasn't that late. I don't believe you one bit. No, she wasn't. She wasn't. Maybe she was still on American Time.

01:23:51 Speaker_12
She wasn't late. I think she was maybe like 20 minutes, 10 minutes or something.

01:23:55 Speaker_13
I've waited three hours to see her and I didn't care. And she was on. It was amazing.

01:24:00 Speaker_10
Yeah, good.

01:24:01 Speaker_13
Kuma came out as well. It was so good. There's an artist called Duran Banar. He does her backing vocals, but he's an amazing vocalist on his own. He was out. It was amazing. I went with my sister and my best friend. We had the best time. She's a force.

01:24:17 Speaker_13
Gosh, she had her jewelry in her hat. She had these really cool trousers, pants that were like chaps, actually, but had like teddy bears on. It was just wild. The whole thing was wild. I was obsessed. It was brilliant.

01:24:29 Speaker_13
But yeah, that's how my proficiency for music, because I've had such a vast experience of it from loads of different sources onwards.

01:24:36 Speaker_10
Now, you said the highlight is being in the stage and having that open line of communication with the audience. It's really happening.

01:24:42 Speaker_10
So I'm wondering the moment in the Requiem, do you experience something in that insane mass of harmony that can compete with the other solo thing?

01:24:51 Speaker_13
There's like 30 to 40 voices singing at once or at the top of their voices in harmony.

01:25:00 Speaker_10
It'll be like MDMA. Oh my God.

01:25:02 Speaker_13
There's nothing like it. And it's ringing in your ears, but you can feel it in the back of your head at the same time. It's like a short circuit. And sometimes it's what I feel when an orchestra is playing all together. There's nothing like it.

01:25:15 Speaker_10
You do realize how lucky you are, y'all. Yeah. I mean, really, you're having an experience on planet Earth that really very few people can ever touch.

01:25:23 Speaker_13
My experience is sort of enhanced by the fact that I experience anesthesia. So I see color.

01:25:28 Speaker_10
You have that.

01:25:29 Speaker_13
I see color when I hear music. So for me, it's like a full sensory thing.

01:25:36 Speaker_10
We understand that we are story creatures. We understand that we passed on our culture and our knowledge through story. We're starting to really understand it neurologically, but we haven't really cracked what music is.

01:25:46 Speaker_13
You can talk about the science all day long and what it is and sound waves and all of that. But actually, we can't really crack the code on why it affects people the way it does.

01:25:55 Speaker_13
We can't crack how this piece connects with that person, but doesn't connect with this person. Why do we all understand this particular language? We might speak it differently, but there are a finite amount of notes.

01:26:07 Speaker_10
My uncle who went to Juilliard, who is a trumpet player, he told me, yeah, mathematically, every single song's already been written. Yes. There'll never be a new piece of music. That's so wild.

01:26:15 Speaker_13
The notes are the same. It's just how we experience it. Why do we experience it like that?

01:26:19 Speaker_10
I think part of it is It seemingly has absolutely no purpose.

01:26:24 Speaker_04
Right. But it does.

01:26:26 Speaker_10
It does.

01:26:27 Speaker_04
The most important purpose.

01:26:28 Speaker_10
But it seems like a weird thing for a human to do at any given time. Right. And there's something I think just starting with that premise, which is like this serves no purpose, is interesting. So we know we're doing it for some other calling.

01:26:40 Speaker_10
It's like the closest we have to touching something kind of mystical.

01:26:44 Speaker_13
I believe that. This might sound like the nerdiest thing I've ever said, but my favorite scale is chromatic. Say it again. All the notes in between, a chromatic scale.

01:26:57 Speaker_10
A chromatic scale.

01:26:58 Speaker_13
Yeah, because it leaves none of the notes out.

01:27:00 Speaker_03
Ooh. But it's not just humans, animals sing. Yes, they do. Birds. Yeah, and wolves.

01:27:06 Speaker_13
They won't shut the fuck up. Whales, whale songs. Whales, they're all tonal. Notes and music, however you experience it, it's the one thing that connects every single being on the planet. It's the one thing we all have in common.

01:27:20 Speaker_10
And you're doing it at like the apex level.

01:27:21 Speaker_03
Lucky girl.

01:27:22 Speaker_10
Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I could not put too fine a point on how great Wicked is. It's outrageous.

01:27:28 Speaker_13
Thank you.

01:27:28 Speaker_03
We don't love musicals in general. We don't, Monica. And we say that publicly. It's dangerous. It's just equal to me saying I don't like dogs, which is also true. But man, did it get me.

01:27:40 Speaker_10
When you're experiencing some lip from somebody, you have to go through such a long list. You're like, is it because I'm a woman? Is it I'm small? Is it I'm Indian? Is that I hate dogs? Is that I hate musicals?

01:27:50 Speaker_05
I'm adding things by the second.

01:27:52 Speaker_10
You're not helping yourself figure out what's really going on in any way. What a delight to meet you, Cynthia. I really have enjoyed this immensely.

01:28:00 Speaker_13
This has been really fun.

01:28:01 Speaker_10
You got to urge people to go to shit, but I don't. In fact, I could say like, whatever you do, do not go on November 22nd to see Wicked, and I know you'll be there.

01:28:09 Speaker_13
I bet everyone already has pre-booked their tickets. I hope so.

01:28:11 Speaker_10
Is it a secret when the second one will come out?

01:28:13 Speaker_13
The second one is coming out the same time next year. Oh, okay. 22nd November next year.

01:28:18 Speaker_10
And you film them both at once, obviously. We film them both at once. How long did that take? A year?

01:28:21 Speaker_13
That took about a year. We started rehearsals August 2022, started shooting December.

01:28:29 Speaker_10
So four months of rehearsals.

01:28:31 Speaker_13
Yeah. We needed it. Of course.

01:28:35 Speaker_10
You're doing like a Broadway show.

01:28:37 Speaker_13
Started shooting in December, came to a halt in June or July. I can't remember for the writing strike or actor strike both. And then came back top of this year in January, finished in February. Wow.

01:28:51 Speaker_10
Oh, wow. And Ariana's fantastic.

01:28:54 Speaker_13
She's great. She's experienced a lot. And she's a sweetheart. And what people don't realize is that she's experienced real heartbreak. Yeah.

01:29:01 Speaker_10
Again, back to the thing we were talking about, trying to figure out everything. So, yeah, you have a package. Monica has a package. I have a package. The perfect end of the package also sucks sometimes. Yes.

01:29:10 Speaker_10
It's like very hard to be sympathetic to someone who looks like her and has her career. And she's just as worthy of it. Anyone's sympathy. You love her, right? After you talk about her, you guys have really fallen in love.

01:29:20 Speaker_13
I love her. She's a bright spark, but you just want to, like, take care of her. Give her a big old hug. And we really took care of each other. This was like a big one for us.

01:29:29 Speaker_13
We used to joke that the two of us were like dust by the end of it because we were working to the bone. I mean, whatever scratches, scrapes, cuts, bruises you think you could get, we had them. The flying in harnesses, chafing, we had it.

01:29:44 Speaker_13
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chafing was like a funny word to me until I realized what chafing actually looked like when you had it repetitively.

01:29:54 Speaker_10
It's almost a bed sore at that point.

01:29:56 Speaker_13
My gosh. It took months for my hips to just heal. Scratched palms, bleeding. I had a bloody nose. Like it was mad. We were in this the whole way. Outside, she's got basically her arms out all the time. When it's cold, it's cold.

01:30:13 Speaker_13
There's nothing you can do about it. You want to fly outside? OK, we're flying outside. Is it windy? Yes. Tough. We're going to do it anyway. Is it raining today? Yep. It won't show on camera, so we're going to do it. That kind of thing.

01:30:22 Speaker_13
We were willing to do whatever it took to do this. You want to be in at 3 a.m.? Be in at 3 a.m. We're going to finish this makeup because we need to be on set by 5.

01:30:29 Speaker_10
Yeah, you know, in some weird way, it's lucky you did it at this age. If you tried to do this at 45 with this long ass career, you'd be like, I am not getting in that harness.

01:30:37 Speaker_03
I know about chafing, I'm not doing it.

01:30:39 Speaker_10
And it's rare that I can ask women to feel bad for men, but I've spent a lot of time in harnesses too. Just put a penis and balls in that same harness as well as everything else that's going on.

01:30:49 Speaker_10
You're in it sometimes going, well, this can't be how it is, right? Probably going to destroy my reproductive capabilities.

01:30:58 Speaker_13
But here's the thing, I'm going to top you there. I'm going to say, think of putting on a harness and then throwing a corset at the same time.

01:31:05 Speaker_05
No thanks.

01:31:06 Speaker_13
Because the corset's already hitting your hips, right? And now you put the harness on top of the corset.

01:31:12 Speaker_09
Yeah, ribs hurt.

01:31:13 Speaker_13
Yes.

01:31:14 Speaker_10
All right, you win. I adore you. I hope everyone goes and sees Wicked, November 22nd. And I hope we end up interviewing you a dozen more times as you promote other things. Wonderful.

01:31:23 Speaker_13
Can I come back even if I don't have to promote something? Yes, of course. This was fun.

01:31:27 Speaker_10
Also, Kristen has just started doing this thing on Sunday. She started a choir club.

01:31:31 Speaker_13
Oh, my goodness.

01:31:32 Speaker_10
So if you're ever here on Sunday, I'm sure she would love for you to come. And it's just a bunch of nerds like you guys fucking singing together.

01:31:39 Speaker_13
I would love that. A choir club? It's really cool. Do you know how lovely that would be?

01:31:44 Speaker_10
Yeah, because there's no point to it other than remembering that you love music.

01:31:48 Speaker_13
Oh, my gosh. I would love that. I will.

01:31:51 Speaker_08
Thank you. Be well. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. What now?

01:32:04 Speaker_03
No, I will put it on do not disturb for you.

01:32:07 Speaker_08
Oh, I thought you had a bad update.

01:32:09 Speaker_03
No, I don't have a bad update on a previous or upcoming. I'm not sure armchair anonymous. You told me that you hate me because I don't put my phone on. Do not disturb.

01:32:21 Speaker_10
That is how I heard it. That's how you heard it. Okay. Okay.

01:32:25 Speaker_03
So now I put it on. Do not disturb.

01:32:27 Speaker_10
I guess those people have to listen to armchair anonymous and or go back and listen if it already came out.

01:32:33 Speaker_03
You should go back and keep listening, just in case.

01:32:36 Speaker_10
Because, of course, I remember it more of a playful, hey, is there anything like really trivial about each other that we want to air?

01:32:44 Speaker_03
Yeah, you tried to make it cutesy, but it wasn't.

01:32:48 Speaker_10
It wasn't so cutesy.

01:32:49 Speaker_03
No.

01:32:50 Speaker_10
But yeah, I inquired, by the way, you don't have a case on your phone.

01:32:53 Speaker_03
I know, because when I was Mary Kay and Ashley Leroux era, I had to take the case off because they would never have a case.

01:33:00 Speaker_10
You're absolutely right. You can't look.

01:33:02 Speaker_03
You can't look like that.

01:33:03 Speaker_10
Like you need to protect your phone. Hello, class.

01:33:07 Speaker_03
So embarrassing.

01:33:08 Speaker_10
Funny enough, someone in the comments had like, someone wrote like, totally off topic to the episode, but why aren't any of the people in TV shows or movies using a phone with a phone case on it? No one does this.

01:33:24 Speaker_10
And they were saying their anxiety of watching a phone in scenes without a case is a lot. So I said, you know, generally they have the permit, minimally the permission of the phone manufacturer.

01:33:37 Speaker_10
And so if the phone manufacturer is like, yes, you can use our product and they probably supply products, they don't want it all obscured with a phone case.

01:33:45 Speaker_03
The phone company wants it without the case so that you can see what the phone company is.

01:33:50 Speaker_10
Yeah, I like that you're calling it a phone company.

01:33:53 Speaker_03
But if you don't have approval, you do have to have a phone case on, because you have to cover up.

01:33:58 Speaker_10
Or they call what's Greek-y now. We'll find out if that holds up. But you Greek things on a set, too, or you obscure the logo a little bit.

01:34:07 Speaker_05
Yeah.

01:34:08 Speaker_10
Put a little tape over this and that. You'll see a lot of, if people look closely, they'll see a lot of Mac computers being used in things with a little tape on it.

01:34:16 Speaker_10
Stickers or tape covering up that logo that what a great logo, by the way, not a sponsor not a sponsor But a cute Apple, although it's kind of I'm looking directly at yours, of course.

01:34:26 Speaker_10
Yeah, and we don't we have not greeted No, my brother visited yesterday. How was it for just I don't know 12 hours Wow, cuz he's going on a cruise leaving out of Long Beach So he and my sister-in-law Tammy came from 1 p.m.

01:34:42 Speaker_10
till the evening and we went out to Cafe 101 slash Clark Street. It's not really Cafe 101 anymore.

01:34:48 Speaker_10
Had a lovely lunch, played spades, came back and then we wandered into here and we sat down and we just started chatting and it was incredibly touching and connected and we were talking about our childhoods together and realizations we have.

01:35:11 Speaker_10
And, uh, there was even some, some damp eyes at times from both of you or just, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was, um, it was really, really, really special.

01:35:23 Speaker_03
Did you guys hug?

01:35:24 Speaker_10
Well, we hugged when he got here and then we hugged a long time when he left.

01:35:28 Speaker_03
But did you hug in the middle? No.

01:35:31 Speaker_10
That felt too much? Well, just didn't feel terribly necessary. What we did is afterwards we played pickleball.

01:35:37 Speaker_03
Oh, that's fun. Okay. I do have a question about this. Like when people, when you're around someone and they have damp eyes because they're about to cry or they're crying a little bit, I don't really necessarily know how to handle that always.

01:35:52 Speaker_03
Like I know how to handle it with my words.

01:35:55 Speaker_10
Meaning you know how to say the right thing?

01:35:57 Speaker_03
Yes.

01:35:58 Speaker_10
Okay.

01:35:58 Speaker_03
But I don't because I didn't really grow up in an affectionate family, physically affectionate family.

01:36:03 Speaker_10
Yeah.

01:36:03 Speaker_03
Like I don't know if I should touch them or not.

01:36:06 Speaker_10
Oh, okay. So specifically whether or not to touch them.

01:36:09 Speaker_03
Yeah. Do you?

01:36:10 Speaker_10
I don't feel a compulsion to touch people and maybe this is arrogant, but when that happens to me and it's generally a man, like if it's happening and it's another man, I immediately feel super flattered.

01:36:24 Speaker_04
Sure.

01:36:25 Speaker_10
The main feeling I have is like, I'm so lucky that this person feels comfortable doing this in front of me. It doesn't give me anxiety or like, I got to do the right thing.

01:36:36 Speaker_10
To me, the right thing already happened, which is why they're doing it in front of you.

01:36:39 Speaker_03
But you don't feel the need to like help or comfort?

01:36:42 Speaker_10
No, I don't feel, and well, I inevitably will comfort and just will be talking about whatever it is there, and I'll be hopefully dialed in and thoughtful in asking questions. But I get no anxiety, but I understand the anxiety.

01:36:59 Speaker_03
I only, I get anxiety about to touch or not.

01:37:02 Speaker_10
It's just touching.

01:37:03 Speaker_03
Yeah. Okay, your words are fine as you said. I feel like sometimes I should like touch their hand. Caress their hair. No, not correct.

01:37:12 Speaker_10
Gently brushing my brother's hair back behind his ear. I mean, doesn't have enough to tuck behind his ear. Not that he can't, he couldn't. He has very thick hair above his ears.

01:37:23 Speaker_03
What if he started playing with the hair in his ears?

01:37:26 Speaker_10
That's very sexual. I mean, so is putting the hair behind the ear.

01:37:30 Speaker_03
It is.

01:37:31 Speaker_10
But no, I didn't. No. A full breakdown? Yes, I would have probably moved over to that couch.

01:37:41 Speaker_03
And would you have put your arm around him?

01:37:42 Speaker_10
I would have put my arm around him and hoped that he wanted to hide his head in my shoulder.

01:37:45 Speaker_03
Oh, wow.

01:37:46 Speaker_10
But that would have been a full breakdown.

01:37:48 Speaker_03
It needs to be, like, really bad.

01:37:50 Speaker_10
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

01:37:52 Speaker_03
I'm gonna write down the rules. Rob, do you like to touch people when they cry?

01:37:58 Speaker_07
I get like you, I don't know what to do. That would have been my guess.

01:38:06 Speaker_10
Rob, here's a question, Rob. So that totally makes sense for me. If it's Natalie, I know what to do, but other people. And your children. There's exceptions. But Rob, do you think, and this sounds like I'm fishing for a compliment, I'm truly not.

01:38:23 Speaker_10
I'm just genuinely curious. We've been working nearly every day together for seven years Mike Do you think my willingness to do that with men has at all like rubbed off on you?

01:38:36 Speaker_07
Yeah, probably a little bit.

01:38:39 Speaker_10
Yeah Like do you think like you would take a nice long hug for me, right? Yeah, I would I mean I have friends that I would yeah, it's more I'd love to hug you if you ever had a sad moment I needed to cry

01:38:52 Speaker_10
Yeah, so if you want to schedule one, I'm totally available.

01:38:54 Speaker_07
All right, I'll put it on the calendar.

01:38:57 Speaker_03
It depends on who it is and it depends on how often that exchange happens, like how often you're crying around.

01:39:04 Speaker_05
Yeah.

01:39:04 Speaker_03
There are some people who've definitely never seen me cry who I'm close to.

01:39:08 Speaker_05
Sure.

01:39:09 Speaker_03
And then there are others who see me cry a lot, you.

01:39:11 Speaker_10
Yeah, sure, sure.

01:39:12 Speaker_03
You've seen me cry a lot, Kristen's seen me cry a lot.

01:39:14 Speaker_10
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Callie, I presume? Or do you keep it buttoned up?

01:39:18 Speaker_03
No, she has. That's interesting, actually. I don't keep it buttoned up. She's definitely seen it.

01:39:25 Speaker_05
Yeah.

01:39:25 Speaker_03
And heard it. But this is how I am with family. I have a very quick trigger to cry in front of my parents. Oh, you do? But I don't want to. So I'm always like trying to not, but it's like always right at the surface.

01:39:38 Speaker_10
That's the best kind when you're acting. And that's what you're supposed to do as an actor. You're supposed to try to not cry.

01:39:42 Speaker_03
Exactly, I learned that.

01:39:43 Speaker_10
But most of the time you're trying to cry really hard and then the second it starts and you gotta act like you're not.

01:39:46 Speaker_03
And you're like trying to keep it together. I learned that in college.

01:39:50 Speaker_09
Act D 107. I did learn it in college.

01:39:53 Speaker_03
Yeah, so I'm always like, it's right there. Emotions are just so heightened with your family. I have similar feelings in this environment. I don't have that as much with her. I don't know why it's not. It's not good or bad. I don't know. Yeah.

01:40:14 Speaker_10
Aaron and I used to we had this. I mean, we did this so often we would laugh at ourselves for doing it, which is we would. Our thing was we drank with everybody, all of our friends, but he and I always went another three or four hours. Sure.

01:40:29 Speaker_10
Even from our most, you know, hard charging friends, there was always a few hours reserved for Aaron and I to just be together, really hammered at the end of the night.

01:40:40 Speaker_10
And we would start going through childhood and we would have a good cry while we were hammered.

01:40:46 Speaker_03
Oh, wow.

01:40:46 Speaker_10
And we loved it. It was the only way we could talk about.

01:40:51 Speaker_03
Yes.

01:40:51 Speaker_10
Get into all the stuff. And so like we kind of needed it. And yet we only did it when we were super hammered. But luckily we were hammered all the time together.

01:41:02 Speaker_10
So, yeah, we would do it and then we would wake up and we just laugh like, oh, yeah, we did that. And, you know, just started crying together while we were hammered.

01:41:10 Speaker_04
That's funny.

01:41:11 Speaker_10
I mean, it feels like somehow the subconscious was like, you got to figure out a way to get crying together. However it needs to happen, you do need to probably have some cries together.

01:41:22 Speaker_03
Oh yeah, man.

01:41:23 Speaker_10
And I've held Aaron a lot, for sure.

01:41:25 Speaker_03
Aaron's very sensitive.

01:41:28 Speaker_10
Yeah, so wonderfully sensitive. Isn't it funny, sensitive's like a pejorative, but it's so- It's not to me, it's not to women. You're gonna be married to someone who's not sensitive?

01:41:37 Speaker_03
That's a patriarchal thing, because people say, think women are sensitive.

01:41:41 Speaker_10
Yeah.

01:41:42 Speaker_03
So they've decided that's a negative thing.

01:41:43 Speaker_10
And guess what, women are sensitive.

01:41:45 Speaker_03
Thank God.

01:41:45 Speaker_10
Yeah, thank God. I know we need it so much.

01:41:48 Speaker_03
Yeah.

01:41:49 Speaker_10
That's a great segue.

01:41:51 Speaker_03
Okay.

01:41:51 Speaker_10
I really wanted to promote the Martha Stewart documentary.

01:41:55 Speaker_03
Did you finish it? Not yet. We still have to talk about substance.

01:41:59 Speaker_10
Oh, okay.

01:41:59 Speaker_03
We keep adding.

01:42:00 Speaker_10
Okay. Well, let's talk about, do you want to talk about substance first? I mean, we're here talking about women. I think I want to talk about, I want to talk about Martha Stewart.

01:42:07 Speaker_03
Today's a big, I know it's in a couple weeks that this is coming out, but today is a big day to talk about women.

01:42:14 Speaker_10
It's election day. I know, but it's at least two weeks later.

01:42:21 Speaker_03
I know, but I can't act like I'm not thinking about it.

01:42:25 Speaker_10
Okay. I'm not going to prevent you from. anything. So Martha Stewart, if I just start with my own, of course, I knew who she was all growing up. She's been, you know, a very prominent figure in culture forever.

01:42:37 Speaker_10
I remember when she became a billionaire, that was like very big news. And then her incarceration, which I thought was insider, not only did I think it was insider trading, I think I thought that's what she went to prison for.

01:42:47 Speaker_10
I also thought it was insider trading of her own company. Neither of those things are true, which is fascinating. This is like an Amanda Knox story.

01:42:54 Speaker_04
Interesting.

01:42:55 Speaker_10
And a Marion Jones story. There's another one. I bet we all remember it differently than what it actually was. But watching this doc, I admire her so much. And she's got some very unattractive sides to her.

01:43:10 Speaker_03
Big time.

01:43:11 Speaker_10
Which she kind of owns.

01:43:13 Speaker_03
Well, does she? Well, that's the part that that's you got to get.

01:43:17 Speaker_10
Yeah, you got to get deeper into that. It's a phenomenal doc. I really want an interviewer, of course. And I think it's great. I recommend it.

01:43:25 Speaker_10
And I can't wait for you to finish it because we can talk about like the, you know, pretty insane miscarriage of justice. Basically, America was sick of white-collar criminals getting away with shit. It was in the air.

01:43:41 Speaker_10
And there was a lot of bad insider trading. And no one gave a fuck about the other people. They wanted a sacrificial lamb. Everyone wanted someone to pay.

01:43:53 Speaker_10
And then you add in all the resentment people already have that she is a very successful, very rich, very powerful woman. And whether anyone's aware of that or not, I don't think anyone was like consciously going, yeah, this is the wrong thing to do.

01:44:07 Speaker_10
I'm going to do it. I don't think that happened, but I don't think you're aware of how much you're responding to this thing you're threatened by and you don't even know you are.

01:44:15 Speaker_03
Yeah, people carry so many feelings that they don't understand about successful women.

01:44:23 Speaker_10
It's very similar to the Kardashian hatred. It's quite similar because Martha was presenting the perfect life. She's in pursuit of perfection.

01:44:33 Speaker_10
And so people are simultaneously very attracted to that because we all like beauty and we like this stuff and it's very aspirational and wish fulfillment-y. And then you're mad you don't have it and she has it. And you're jealous.

01:44:50 Speaker_10
Even though in her case, she was physically doing it all herself. She's making floral arrangements and she's making the meals and she's all this stuff. But it's just, there's a lot of things that are fun to look at in the doc.

01:45:02 Speaker_10
How complicated are all of our relationship is with high status people and particularly high status women and people who have what we want is, you know.

01:45:11 Speaker_04
Yeah. It's complicated. Very complicated. Yeah, well, I'm excited to watch that.

01:45:17 Speaker_10
Okay, the substance. Now, my prediction was, I don't know if it was a prediction, I was just like, it's unrelenting and very intense, and I'm just curious how you're gonna feel. What do you rate the intensity, the gore?

01:45:30 Speaker_03
So, of course, it's so gory, it's so, it's very intense. Over the top. It's so over the top, but I wasn't like, I don't think I was as disturbed as.

01:45:42 Speaker_10
I was worried.

01:45:43 Speaker_03
As you were anticipating.

01:45:44 Speaker_10
Yeah.

01:45:45 Speaker_03
And I said then, and I was like, I'm not sure if this is going to be true, but I wonder if.

01:45:50 Speaker_09
Women.

01:45:51 Speaker_03
We'll watch this differently and will not think it's as intense as men do. I mean, it is, it is, it's crazy.

01:45:57 Speaker_10
Objectively.

01:45:58 Speaker_03
Objectively it is.

01:45:59 Speaker_10
An alien would go, wow, that's a really wild film the monkeys made.

01:46:03 Speaker_03
Yes. Everyone's like kind of screaming. It's like kind of one of those where people are reacting loudly in a really fun way.

01:46:09 Speaker_09
Was it pretty packed when you went?

01:46:10 Speaker_03
No.

01:46:10 Speaker_09
Oh, okay. The five people were screaming. Did anyone walk out?

01:46:15 Speaker_03
No. And that's like, to me, the idea of someone walking out is funny to me.

01:46:21 Speaker_10
I mean, I don't wanna do any spoilers, but I just wanna talk about the sewing of the skin. Yeah. That wasn't like, oh my fucking God, or fingernail stuff. No, that stuff was, I mean, that stuff is.

01:46:31 Speaker_03
I mean, I was like, ew, of course I was like, ew, oh my God, this is so insane.

01:46:36 Speaker_10
Yeah.

01:46:36 Speaker_03
But I was not like, oh my God, I gotta walk out, or oh my God, I gotta close my eyes. And like, by the end of the movie, I was dying laughing. I was laughing out loud. at like such a high frequency. I thought it became so funny to me.

01:46:52 Speaker_06
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:46:54 Speaker_03
So absurd.

01:46:55 Speaker_06
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

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01:48:10 Speaker_10
I have that with violence in movies. It starts making me laugh so hard. Some of the violence in Goodfellas, some of the violence in Tarantino movies. It's just, yeah. I think it is interesting. I think there's something there.

01:48:26 Speaker_03
Right. I think because for you, since violence was a reality- Big time. you can see it a little differently or you can like, maybe you know when it's hit an absurd threshold.

01:48:39 Speaker_10
Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:48:41 Speaker_03
And because for me, violence is just scary in general.

01:48:43 Speaker_10
It's all violence.

01:48:44 Speaker_03
It's all scary. It doesn't matter even the smallest.

01:48:46 Speaker_10
You don't know what's comedic and what's not.

01:48:47 Speaker_03
Yeah. And so I wouldn't laugh at that, but this is like, yes, I'm so clear as to when like body gore has hit another level or when the message of the female body has like escalated to a different point. It's such an incredible message. It's so true.

01:49:08 Speaker_03
Speaking of successful women, it's cast so perfectly because to me more, is so gorgeous. She's so beautiful.

01:49:19 Speaker_09
She's a knockout.

01:49:20 Speaker_03
She has aged incredibly gracefully. She looks incredible.

01:49:24 Speaker_10
When you were my age, she was perfectly the right age above me where she was like this incredibly exotic young 20 year old when I was like 15 or whatever.

01:49:34 Speaker_03
Yeah, Jess said that he was in love with her.

01:49:37 Speaker_09
Oh, wow, transcended.

01:49:39 Speaker_03
I know, I said, well, what'd you wanna do, eat around it?

01:49:45 Speaker_09
Do people know that? I think it's worth repeating.

01:49:48 Speaker_03
It's worth repeating. If you listen to Monica and Jess Loves Boys, Monica and Jess Loves Boys, that was one of our early spinoff shows. It was a long time ago at this point.

01:49:59 Speaker_03
We did a 10 episode show with Jess where him and I were so opposite, but we were on like dating missions, basically. And it was such a fun show. Another show I'm really proud of speaking of.

01:50:13 Speaker_10
Well, let's add now, because people for so many years have wanted to know why you guys didn't do a second season. And I think it's important to just say that you realize if you are actually going to find love, this was not the right way.

01:50:22 Speaker_10
You had to prioritize your real

01:50:24 Speaker_03
Yeah, it felt a little cheap. Well, you know, we put out the the questionnaires and people responded. And once we were going through them, I was like, yeah, this is we're just making a show and it wouldn't really be about the real thing.

01:50:35 Speaker_10
And that feels not your real life informing the show. The show is going to start informing your real life. And that's that's a dicey road.

01:50:42 Speaker_03
Yeah.

01:50:42 Speaker_10
Yeah.

01:50:43 Speaker_03
Yeah. So anyways, that's why we didn't.

01:50:45 Speaker_10
But he had girlfriends in high school.

01:50:46 Speaker_03
Yeah, he had girlfriends. Jess is gay, if people don't know that. He had girlfriends in high school and we'd be like, well, did you like have sex or would you? And he was like, I would eat around it.

01:50:58 Speaker_10
Which by the way, feels very sexy just having someone eat my thighs and get close. They were probably like teetering on the verge. It might've been better than actual what high school boys were doing directly.

01:51:10 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's worth perhaps going back and listening to that show just to hear him describe that. Speaking of that, actually, we have a feed. It's called Armchair Limited. It is where all our old series live.

01:51:24 Speaker_10
Oh great, people are curious about that.

01:51:26 Speaker_03
If you ever want to go back and listen to any of these fun things we've done.

01:51:29 Speaker_10
Race to 270, a lot of people have been asking me like, where's Race to 270?

01:51:32 Speaker_03
Race to 270, Race to 35. So anyway, all our old shows are on there. It's really fun if you want to go.

01:51:37 Speaker_10
Armchair Limited. Armchair Umbrella Limited series. Armchair Umbrella Limited series. But I think if you type in Armchair Limited, it'll pop up.

01:51:45 Speaker_03
Anyway, I asked, did you want to eat around it? And he said, no, I just wanted to write her letters.

01:51:52 Speaker_10
Ah, okay. More of like, what do they call that, mother?

01:51:55 Speaker_04
Yeah.

01:51:56 Speaker_03
Someone called me that the other day and I was so flattered. So cool. Yeah. So substance. Yeah. Like she's so gorgeous and perfect. And so when she's starting to do go down this road where she's Looking to be younger. Taking a substance. Yes.

01:52:15 Speaker_03
You're like, why? You don't need to do this. Why are you doing this? Yeah. And then you see the young person, and as a woman, and this is so sad, as a woman, you're like, oh, I guess I kind of get it. I understand why she wants that.

01:52:31 Speaker_09
Yeah.

01:52:32 Speaker_03
It's so fucked up. It is so fucked up what we do to aging women in this society. We really cast, Women aside.

01:52:42 Speaker_10
It's asymmetric, for sure.

01:52:44 Speaker_03
Yeah. The way they shoot the men in the movie is hilarious.

01:52:47 Speaker_10
Yes, yes. All fishy, disgusting. He's always eating shit. Oh, God.

01:52:52 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's falling out of his mouth.

01:52:54 Speaker_10
C-substance.

01:52:55 Speaker_03
Yeah, see substance. I wanna, we have facts, but also, and this is for Cynthia. She was incredible.

01:53:02 Speaker_10
Oh yeah, what a blast that was.

01:53:03 Speaker_03
I have to tell you, any day now, I think we might get unplugged. The Sim is hitting new levels.

01:53:13 Speaker_09
Oh, okay.

01:53:14 Speaker_03
Okay?

01:53:14 Speaker_09
Okay.

01:53:15 Speaker_03
Yesterday, I was in Culver City. I'm never in Culver City.

01:53:20 Speaker_10
Right.

01:53:20 Speaker_03
It was so random. It was kind of last minute.

01:53:23 Speaker_10
Yeah.

01:53:23 Speaker_03
Decided to go.

01:53:25 Speaker_10
Decided to go to Culver City last minute.

01:53:27 Speaker_03
Yes.

01:53:27 Speaker_10
What on earth was in Culver City?

01:53:29 Speaker_03
Jess is helping open a new restaurant. Okay. And I told him I would come see it. Be a patron. Yeah, exactly. But I was like really on the fence. I didn't know if I was, whatever. And last minute I was like, I guess I'll go.

01:53:40 Speaker_03
I wanted to beat traffic so I went early. I went at like this random time. Yeah. And I park, I'm just sitting in the car, I'm on the phone, and I look over and Molly is staring at me through my car window. Molly Richardson.

01:53:56 Speaker_10
Richardson or McNary? Okay, Molly Richardson.

01:53:58 Speaker_03
Who also does not live in Culver City, is never in Culver City, happened to be meeting a friend for lunch. Nobody goes to Culver City. I know, exactly. Happened to be meeting a friend for lunch there and like drove by, saw my car,

01:54:11 Speaker_03
saw my little, she said she saw my little head.

01:54:14 Speaker_10
Okay.

01:54:15 Speaker_03
And then parked and what? That is so weird.

01:54:19 Speaker_10
It is very weird. We have, listen, which it's so fine. We have complimentary things about that trigger us into the sim.

01:54:28 Speaker_04
Okay.

01:54:28 Speaker_10
So you have things, you have coincidences.

01:54:30 Speaker_04
Okay.

01:54:31 Speaker_10
Right. That's kind of your, what you don't ever miss. Mine is more what's happening in my lifetime. This feels very suspicious. So my example, my recent SIM moment was talking to my hormone doctor, telling him how I mean, this we're just chatting.

01:54:50 Speaker_10
It's not like I'm asking him to deal with this. I'm just somehow we're talking about getting older, maybe. And I said, the thing that's fucking killing me is my eyesight.

01:54:58 Speaker_10
I find it so frustrating, and I know I'm being a baby, but I cannot stand not being able to fucking read anything that's not 25 feet away from me.

01:55:07 Speaker_05
Yeah.

01:55:08 Speaker_10
And he said, oh, I just got the bionic lenses put on.

01:55:12 Speaker_04
Right.

01:55:12 Speaker_10
And I go, what, what bionic lenses? And he said, I think Johnson & Johnson makes now an artificial lens that lasts forever, that gives you perfect sight.

01:55:22 Speaker_04
Yeah.

01:55:23 Speaker_10
And I went, What are the odds I'm gonna be, I'm not gonna have to deal with fucked up declining vision? That's where we're at. Again, that feels awfully suspicious, Monica.

01:55:37 Speaker_10
For 300,000 years, humans have had to deal with their eyes going to shit, and I might not have to?

01:55:43 Speaker_04
Yeah.

01:55:44 Speaker_10
Come on, man. My final piece of the puzzle, or I'll go, okay, it's a sim, I'm in a sim, is if they shut off aging. But they end aging and you don't have to die until the earth blows up in five billion years or sooner.

01:56:00 Speaker_03
But also you would still die by getting hit by a car and stuff.

01:56:03 Speaker_10
You could still die by getting, yeah. I think we've really beat out all the things that this would cause. I think you'd get abnormally fearful of accidental death.

01:56:11 Speaker_03
Everyone would become agoraphobic.

01:56:13 Speaker_10
You'd walk around with a big bubble wrap all over you. So that to me, that's more what I'm tracking. And I've always said this, mostly people that believe in the sim have an abnormally lucky life and I own that.

01:56:25 Speaker_03
Yeah, but that's if you're looking at the sim in the way you're looking at the sim. If you look at it in the coincidental way, that can also, that doesn't have to be privileged.

01:56:34 Speaker_03
That's just like, what the fuck is going on that I just said this, or that I'm running into Molly, that my neighbor of my house owns the apartment next door.

01:56:47 Speaker_10
I acknowledge that stuff is very simmy. But I do think that if you've had, you know, two people knock you up that lied and said they had vasectomies and you're in a trailer on welfare.

01:57:01 Speaker_10
If you do think it's a sim, I feel so bad for that, because why would that person deserve that sim?

01:57:07 Speaker_05
Exactly.

01:57:07 Speaker_10
Why would they, they plugged into something to have that experience? So I don't think that person would ever think they're in a sim, because why would they, who would be in a sim that's fucking insufferable?

01:57:18 Speaker_03
Well, that's a, okay, it gets so heady because if we're, if I'm in my sim.

01:57:23 Speaker_10
The people that are suffering are fake. Yeah. That's what we hope.

01:57:27 Speaker_03
I know, I know.

01:57:30 Speaker_10
I don't want anyone to suffer.

01:57:31 Speaker_03
Me either.

01:57:32 Speaker_10
I don't want anyone that's in a sim should be having a fucking rollercoaster ride.

01:57:35 Speaker_03
But in their sim they are.

01:57:36 Speaker_10
This is very confusing. Well, TBDs, TBDs.

01:57:39 Speaker_03
Whatever, I'll just say, I think we might get unplugged soon, because it's getting way, that's so crazy.

01:57:45 Speaker_10
Same, bionic eyes, I mean, they just happen.

01:57:47 Speaker_03
Okay, Cynthia.

01:57:49 Speaker_10
Boy, did I like her. That self-assuredness is so attractive to me.

01:57:54 Speaker_03
Very. Okay, Michaela Cole. We were talking about if she was younger or older. She is the same age. She's 37 as well.

01:58:02 Speaker_10
Okay.

01:58:02 Speaker_03
All of us were born in 87, all three of us.

01:58:05 Speaker_10
Special year, as we know.

01:58:06 Speaker_03
Special year.

01:58:07 Speaker_10
Seventh grade for me, birth for you.

01:58:09 Speaker_03
A postpartum doula, you wanted to know what that was.

01:58:11 Speaker_10
Yeah.

01:58:12 Speaker_03
A trained professional who offers support to new parents during the postpartum period, which is the first six weeks after giving birth.

01:58:19 Speaker_03
Postpartum doulas can help with a variety of tasks, including physical care, helping with breastfeeding, infant feeding and infant soothing, emotional support, information, housework, Incorporating older children.

01:58:33 Speaker_03
Oh, helping to incorporate the older child. Integrating, yeah. Overnight shifts. She mentioned one of her heroes, Cicely Tyson. And yes, she was nominated for Best Actress in 1973 for Sounder. Cicely Tyson was.

01:58:50 Speaker_10
I wasn't even here yet. No, you weren't. I'm still a few years away.

01:58:53 Speaker_03
Couple years.

01:58:54 Speaker_10
Did you say 72 or 73? Three. Two, yeah, okay.

01:58:59 Speaker_03
Your brother was here.

01:58:59 Speaker_10
Ding, ding, ding.

01:59:01 Speaker_03
Erica Badu. Oh, I just wanted to because you talk. You asked if she was late. And I just want to be clear that that's a thing with her. It's a thing that she is late a lot.

01:59:13 Speaker_10
It's cool, though. I like it. The queen's late. Like you wait for the queen.

01:59:16 Speaker_03
Yeah, I agree. I just, for people who don't know that, it seemed random that you would ask that.

01:59:20 Speaker_10
Yeah.

01:59:21 Speaker_03
But it's a thing, like, people ask, like, what, oh, she's going to be a couple hours late. Yeah, yeah. You said that your cousin told you that mathematically every song has already been created. That's not true.

01:59:32 Speaker_05
Oh.

01:59:32 Speaker_03
The number of possible sound combinations is essentially infinite. For example, Spotify The world's largest music platform has over 100 million songs registered and 100,000 new songs are added every day. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:59:46 Speaker_10
Every day? That's what it says. 100,000 songs are added every day.

01:59:49 Speaker_03
That's what it says.

01:59:51 Speaker_10
Holy smokes.

01:59:53 Speaker_03
Yeah, so no, no. No. There's an infinite number of combinations. Okay. Essentially.

02:00:00 Speaker_10
All right.

02:00:02 Speaker_03
So you can tell your cousin.

02:00:04 Speaker_10
I'm not going to tell him. It sounds like a fun thing for him to hold on to.

02:00:07 Speaker_03
OK, sure. Oh, we talk about how in England they have things. We have things here that they don't have because we allow chemicals that they don't.

02:00:15 Speaker_10
Oh, sure. Yeah. We play it fast and loose.

02:00:18 Speaker_03
We do. But in 2023, about a year ago, California became the first state to ban four food additives linked to disease.

02:00:26 Speaker_10
What are they?

02:00:27 Speaker_03
The California Food Safety Act prohibits the manufacturing, distribution, and sale of food and beverages that contain brominated vegetable oil.

02:00:34 Speaker_10
Oh, I love brominated vegetable oil. Delicious. I gotta move.

02:00:38 Speaker_03
Potassium bromate. Oh, no.

02:00:41 Speaker_10
Okay.

02:00:42 Speaker_03
Propylparaben.

02:00:44 Speaker_10
Well, what about Propofol?

02:00:45 Speaker_03
And Red Dye 3. Red Dye 3 is the big, the biggie.

02:00:49 Speaker_10
Yeah.

02:00:49 Speaker_03
Can be found in candy, fruit juices, and cookies and more. Cookie boy.

02:00:54 Speaker_10
Cookie boy.

02:00:55 Speaker_03
Anyway, so that's good.

02:00:57 Speaker_10
How are you doing on your cookie boy-ness? When's the last time you had a cookie?

02:01:01 Speaker_03
I had a cookie at least two weeks ago, because I had one at Sycamore Kitchen. Love Sycamore Kitchen. They have a Rice Krispie Treat cookie. It's so insane.

02:01:13 Speaker_10
I just had an impulse I'm going to share with you. You know how I want to go back in my time machine and woo your grandma so bad?

02:01:19 Speaker_05
Mm-hmm.

02:01:19 Speaker_10
Kill to do that.

02:01:20 Speaker_05
Yeah.

02:01:21 Speaker_10
I also want to see you as a baby, because now when I just asked you about cookies, of course you looked one years old when you started thinking about your cookies. And so I want to go back and see you as a baby eating a cookie.

02:01:31 Speaker_10
Oh, like my first cookie? How hot was your grandma when you were a baby? Could I hit two birds with one stone?

02:01:37 Speaker_03
Yes, she was beautiful. She was. Gorgeous.

02:01:39 Speaker_10
How old was she when you were eating cookies as a one-year-old?

02:01:44 Speaker_03
She would have been, okay, let's see, so my mom is 26 years my senior.

02:01:49 Speaker_10
Mm-hmm, how old was?

02:01:51 Speaker_03
She was probably 20.

02:01:53 Speaker_10
But isn't that your dad's mom?

02:01:54 Speaker_03
No.

02:01:55 Speaker_04
Oh, that's your mom's mom. Yeah. You didn't know that? I don't know, man. Oh my God.

02:02:00 Speaker_10
Yeah, I think of your, that grandma feels very Indian, and I know that your mom's parents lived in Savannah.

02:02:07 Speaker_04
They came from India.

02:02:08 Speaker_10
They came from, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Cause I, your, your dad of course feels so much more like he was an adult when he left India. So when I see a picture like that, I just, I'm in India.

02:02:20 Speaker_03
You are in India. Congratulations, you got that one right. Yeah.

02:02:25 Speaker_05
Okay.

02:02:25 Speaker_03
Okay, so she was probably in her late 40s when I was born. So she was probably around your age that I was eating cookies.

02:02:33 Speaker_10
Oh, wow. Okay, I think this is gonna work.

02:02:36 Speaker_03
No, I don't know.

02:02:37 Speaker_10
Yeah.

02:02:37 Speaker_03
No, my grandpa- He won't know?

02:02:40 Speaker_10
All right, let me flip it. If you wanted to go back in time and give Papa Bob some ass, I'd love my grandma Yola's to death.

02:02:50 Speaker_03
I wouldn't do that to her.

02:02:51 Speaker_10
You haven't met her.

02:02:53 Speaker_03
But you love her.

02:02:54 Speaker_10
I love her so much.

02:02:55 Speaker_03
So why would I do that?

02:02:56 Speaker_10
Smartest person I ever knew. Because this is a one-off time capsule for him. This is like, he doesn't even know if it was a dream the next day, because you came into town and you were nowhere to be found because you went back to the future.

02:03:07 Speaker_03
Okay.

02:03:08 Speaker_10
Ding, ding, ding. Not a sponsor, great movie. It's a one-off. There's no threat to the marriage because you've returned to the future. He can't fall in love with you and ruin everything. It's just a one-off. You give Papa Bob a little tush.

02:03:24 Speaker_10
I would want that for him. I would want it for him. And my grandma didn't need to know. And I would want Brad Pitt to go back and give Euless the ride of her life.

02:03:34 Speaker_03
Oh, sure.

02:03:34 Speaker_10
Yeah.

02:03:35 Speaker_03
That one feels less. Why do we want that for her and not him? I don't know what to say.

02:03:40 Speaker_10
We don't have a word for misogynist for men. What is it? We need that word.

02:03:43 Speaker_04
There's no such thing.

02:03:44 Speaker_10
There's no such thing.

02:03:46 Speaker_09
That's why.

02:03:48 Speaker_10
It feels very mean to men. It feels mean to men. That she gets Brad Pitt, but Papa Bob can't have some.

02:03:54 Speaker_03
That's not mean.

02:03:55 Speaker_10
Some tush. Isn't tush the grossest thing to say? Yeah, you keep saying it and I think it's disgusting. There's a 70s rock song. He's like, I'm just looking for some tush. And Aaron and I used to sing. It is so grody.

02:04:07 Speaker_03
We're going to get stereotypical here.

02:04:09 Speaker_10
Yeah, of course.

02:04:10 Speaker_03
Women, I think, for the most part, caveat, caveat, caveat, asterisks for the most part, their sex. They don't want to have as much sex as men do as they age, as they get older, as things happen. Like, I mean, it's actually for real. Your sex drive does.

02:04:26 Speaker_03
Well, so we have testosterone.

02:04:28 Speaker_10
That's like the that's the sex fuel. Any anyone will tell you that.

02:04:31 Speaker_03
Well, we have testosterone, but not as much.

02:04:33 Speaker_10
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:04:34 Speaker_03
But yes, so, but with menopause and perimenopause, everything drops off. I know, cause I'm in perimenopause. And so, I think a lot of women are having sex with their husbands. past the point of them wanting. We know this.

02:04:53 Speaker_03
It's like the husbands are like, can we have sex once a week? And the wives are like, sure, I guess.

02:04:56 Speaker_10
I think that's the predominant pattern.

02:04:59 Speaker_03
Exactly. Not always.

02:05:00 Speaker_10
But I do want to add, and this I think comes from, there's a ton of great work on this from social scientists, like Ira's mom who studied infidelity. Women cheat the same amount, but they are driven by novelty. This is like agreed upon.

02:05:14 Speaker_10
Women are driven by novelty and men are driven by sprain, unfortunately. So, you know, put that in your argument.

02:05:23 Speaker_03
This is kind of it says men are more likely to cheat than women.

02:05:26 Speaker_10
OK, but like 51 to 49, it's according to these men are cheating with somebody.

02:05:32 Speaker_03
This is 2022. Yeah. But they might be cheating on someone who's not in a partnership. Yeah. 20 percent of men and 13 percent of women admit admitted to cheating on their spouse.

02:05:42 Speaker_10
Yeah. And then I'm just got to you know, I got to do my thing, which is like admitting culturally It's so much worse for a woman to admit it. It's so expected of men.

02:05:51 Speaker_03
Even more, exactly. This is all tying back into what I'm about to say, which is why it's not the same that if Grandma Yolis gets to have sex with Brad Pitt, it's not the same.

02:06:02 Speaker_10
You feel like it's writing the scale.

02:06:04 Speaker_03
Yes.

02:06:05 Speaker_10
I got you.

02:06:06 Speaker_03
Yes, I do.

02:06:07 Speaker_10
Okay, so I imagine that that, just don't hate me. Okay. If it's admitted 20% and 13%, I think the real numbers are probably like 35% for men and probably like 29% for women. That's just what I think.

02:06:23 Speaker_10
From the amount of adults I've known that have been married and the amount of affairs I know about and who they were with, that to me feels way more likely.

02:06:31 Speaker_03
I only, I only, I'm really trying to think, because I don't want to speak out of school. But in my experience, I don't know very many, but I personally only know men who have cheated on their wives. Really?

02:06:48 Speaker_10
None of your girlfriends cheated on their boyfriends. Most of the girls I know cheated on their boyfriends.

02:06:53 Speaker_03
One girl cheated on her boyfriend.

02:06:57 Speaker_09
One?

02:06:57 Speaker_03
Well, let me think.

02:06:59 Speaker_09
Let me go through every woman.

02:07:02 Speaker_03
OK, well, I guess for me, I guess I'm thinking more marital.

02:07:07 Speaker_10
Yeah, OK.

02:07:08 Speaker_03
Once people are married, I, in my experience, only know men who have cheated on their wives.

02:07:14 Speaker_10
I bet it's gone up, too, since women joined the workforce because forever they were at home and they would interact with other women. Who the hell are they even going to meet? Whereas like men were meeting women out in their workplace all the time.

02:07:27 Speaker_03
Well, they weren't meaning women out in the workplace. Sure.

02:07:30 Speaker_10
They had secretaries and all these roles that were conventionally feminine, you know, females.

02:07:35 Speaker_04
Yeah.

02:07:35 Speaker_10
Yeah. Like my Papa Bob worked at the Wonderbed bakery. Sure. Everyone in the bakery was men carrying bags of flour, but then up front there was all these women doing all kinds of stuff.

02:07:43 Speaker_03
Right.

02:07:43 Speaker_10
Yeah. Anywho. Okay. So.

02:07:46 Speaker_03
Okay, Mexican music is... Hold on, no. What?

02:07:50 Speaker_10
Oh, wow. So I accept your full logic, then why doesn't that apply to your sweet grandma? Why isn't she like my grandma Ulysses?

02:07:57 Speaker_03
Wait, what do you mean?

02:07:59 Speaker_10
If you okay Brad Pitt having a night with Ulysses, Useless Eggshells, named after Ulysses S. Grant, why wouldn't your grandma be entitled to a night with me?

02:08:09 Speaker_03
Because I don't want that for my grandfather.

02:08:11 Speaker_10
Oh, right. But it's okay for my grandfather, which would make sense.

02:08:16 Speaker_03
It makes sense for your grandfather, because you said you want it.

02:08:19 Speaker_10
Yeah.

02:08:21 Speaker_03
I don't want it for them.

02:08:22 Speaker_09
All right. I'm moving on.

02:08:23 Speaker_03
Okay. Tejano music is influenced significantly by polka. You're right. That's it.

02:08:33 Speaker_10
That was everything.

02:08:34 Speaker_03
Well, let me just do one more. Yep.

02:08:38 Speaker_10
All done. Final note, not a spoiler. Loved Wicked. You gotta go see Wicked.

02:08:42 Speaker_03
Gotta. You will. Everyone already will. Everyone's already seen it probably by now, but it is so good.

02:08:48 Speaker_10
Popular. All right, I love you.

02:08:52 Speaker_11
Love you.

02:09:07 Speaker_10
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02:09:22 Speaker_10
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02:09:28 Speaker_01
Hello, ladies and gerbs, boys and girls. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tiz the Grinch Holiday Podcast.

02:09:35 Speaker_01
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02:09:45 Speaker_01
You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski, and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not all.

02:09:57 Speaker_01
Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa, and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville whodunit. Can Cindy, Lou, and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out.

02:10:11 Speaker_01
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