Curry vs. Klay, the Embiid Situation, Atlanta’s New Look and Cleveland’s Ascent With Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Episode: Curry vs. Klay, the Embiid Situation, Atlanta’s New Look and Cleveland’s Ascent With Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry

Author: The Ringer
Duration: 01:33:54

Episode Shownotes

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by David Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry after the NBA Cup games to discuss Klay Thompson’s return to Golden State in the Warriors’ close win over the Mavericks (2:30), the Hawks upsetting the Celtics while not playing Trae Young, Timberwolves–Trail Blazers, whether it’s time to

worry about Minnesota (25:50), 76ers-Knicks, rusty Joel Embiid, a Victor Wembanyama check-in, predictions for when the Cavaliers will lose their first game, and more (53:00)! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: David Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary

In this episode, Bill Simmons is joined by David Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry to analyze Klay Thompson's emotional return to the Warriors and their recent performances, emphasizing their potential depth and defensive capabilities. The discussion shifts to the surprising Hawks' victory over the Celtics without Trae Young, touching on player dynamics and future strategies. The hosts debate the NBA's competition format including the NBA Cup, and potential expansion plans centered on Las Vegas. Concerns regarding Joel Embiid's fitness and performance for the 76ers also highlight the ongoing challenges of player health in modern basketball.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Curry vs. Klay, the Embiid Situation, Atlanta’s New Look and Cleveland’s Ascent With Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_01
What's happening? It's Todd McShay and I'm back with a new home and a new show at The Ringer and Spotify. The McShay Show. It's a video and audio podcast coming to you year-round with all my NFL draft information.

00:00:13 Speaker_01
Big boards, mock drafts, and player movement. Plus, I'll be chatting with some of my best friends in football, including some of your favorite football analysts.

00:00:21 Speaker_01
During the week, we'll have episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays that will include discussions about my player rankings, who's rising, who's falling, and who your NFL team should be keeping an eye on.

00:00:31 Speaker_01
Plus, we'll be reacting each week to the college football playoff polls and giving you previews and picks for each Saturday slate.

00:00:39 Speaker_01
In addition, I'll have episodes on Saturday nights with my immediate reaction to the full day in college football every week.

00:00:47 Speaker_01
So if you love the college game, the NFL, the draft, or all of it, like me, make sure to like follow subscribe and get ready for the McShay show on the ringer, Spotify, and wherever you watch or listen to podcasts.

00:01:00 Speaker_04
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. It's tip off time for NBA cup. So I hope you're all ready and stocked up on Michelob Ultra. Notice how I called it NBA cup and not the NBA cup? Trying to get that going. We'll see how it goes.

00:01:15 Speaker_04
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00:01:47 Speaker_04
Visit michelobultra.com slash courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines and official rules. and void were prohibited. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats.

00:01:57 Speaker_04
It's football season and Uber Eats is dropping undefeated deals on all your game day favorites. This week score a free medium two topping Domino's pizza with minimum purchase only on Uber Eats.

00:02:08 Speaker_04
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00:02:19 Speaker_04
We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did Meet the Parents. It was me and Kyle Brandt. I had a great time. You can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well.

00:02:31 Speaker_04
You can follow the Rewatchables on Twitter. It's at the Rewatchables. We had a dramatic movement in the Rewatchables standings. De Niro, that was the 13th De Niro movie we've done. So he moved into a second place tie with Al Pacino.

00:02:45 Speaker_04
We've done 13 of each. Cruise is still leading the way at 15. I feel like we're gonna get to 20 Cruise movies before everything is said and done. So check that out.

00:02:57 Speaker_04
You can check out the Bill Simmons YouTube channel as well where we put clips and videos from this podcast where we go live on Sunday nights with Cousin Sal during the NFL season. And coming up on this podcast, we taped it late.

00:03:10 Speaker_04
We wanted to wait for all these NBA Cup games to end. We wanted to see Klay Thompson. Go back to Golden State, we want to see Celtics-Hawks. There's a whole bunch of good games. A lot of themes to talk about.

00:03:21 Speaker_04
So I asked Kurt Goldsberry and Dave Jacoby to stay up late with me and we're gonna talk about a whole bunch of basketball stuff. It's all next. First our friends from Pro Jam. All right, we're taping this. It is 945 Pacific time.

00:03:55 Speaker_04
I had the instinct to wait to watch all of these NBA Cup games tonight because I felt like something good was going to happen.

00:04:02 Speaker_04
I talked Dave Jacoby into staying up super late on the East Coast and then Kurt Goldsberry staying up late as well in the good state of Texas. It's a little easier for me. But Clay came back to Golden State. We'll start there.

00:04:15 Speaker_04
There's a bunch of games to cover. The game was awesome. And Jacoby, my big takeaway from that game, and we'll get into the staff, the clay, all that stuff, but that felt like a round two or a round three playoff game to me.

00:04:28 Speaker_04
And I wasn't positive that the Warriors maybe were ready to swim in that pool yet. Despite all the evidence, they've had some good games, they have a good record, but that tonight felt like round two or round three to me. What'd you think?

00:04:43 Speaker_02
I was so sick of this game by like four o'clock this afternoon. It was just the coverage just over and so much, so much Clay returning. And like knowing what I know about Clay, I didn't think that he cared that much, but it lived up to all the hype.

00:04:55 Speaker_02
Like even the announcement, I cried very easily. So I got a little like emotional. I didn't cry, but I got a little emotional. I was about to, I was like, God, I can't believe he's not crying.

00:05:06 Speaker_02
And then the start of the game- You ejaculate fluids, that's what you do. Give him the ball the first play he gets fouled, he goes to the line. But it was up and down for Klay. I felt so connected to him and I was rooting for him so hard.

00:05:19 Speaker_02
He had an air ball at the side of the backboard in the third quarter and then another air ball after that. And I was like, oh no, this is falling apart. But then he had a nice little flourish in the fourth quarter.

00:05:28 Speaker_02
The whole day, I was skeptical about this entire experience, watching this basketball tonight, and I could not have enjoyed it more.

00:05:37 Speaker_04
Kirk, he didn't even mention Steph Curry, who is back with a capital B, doing Steph Curry stuff. I was thinking as he was doing it, I'm going to really miss it when it's gone.

00:05:50 Speaker_04
Like a 10 out of 10, I think about the future when we don't have Jokic and Curry, and it just makes me sad, because those are my two favorite day-to-day league pass guys. I'm just trying to appreciate it in the moment, but he did it again.

00:06:02 Speaker_04
It was almost like it was Klay's night, and there was a little, like he had to big boy the night a little bit, it felt like, didn't you?

00:06:10 Speaker_03
Yeah, definitely. And I think it felt like the warriors were going to lose that game. I think they were down seven or something, I want to say.

00:06:17 Speaker_03
And then, uh, Stefan just, yeah, he was like, I'm, I'm the prime splash brother right now, and I'm going to take over. And I feel like we're seeing the night, night. more often than ever, starting with the Olympics.

00:06:29 Speaker_03
Uh, but also I think that's two night nights we've seen this week alone. Um, but this one was especially sort of potent with, with clay who had a pretty good shooting night, a couple of bad ones, like Jacobi said.

00:06:40 Speaker_03
Uh, but still ended up, it was nice to see clay makes six threes. Uh, but you're right. Stefan made the most impressive ones when the game was on the line. It was just awesome.

00:06:49 Speaker_04
Well, the cool thing, These are guys that we weren't sure if we may have seen the best of all of them, especially Clay. Draymond last year was like, is this guy even gonna be able to be a functional NBA star for seven months a year?

00:07:03 Speaker_04
And then Curry, even before the Olympics, it's like, all right, are guys passing him now? Is SGA ahead of him? We're doing this Ringer 100 exercise with the voting next week.

00:07:14 Speaker_04
That was always a tough one to put Curry in because you gotta bring the resume and the experience. all the stuff he's done over the years, but he still has to back it up every once in a while.

00:07:24 Speaker_04
And I felt like, like he did it today, but the, uh, the, the clay piece of itch Cobes. So as the Celtic fan, I, we had guys come back, but they were like washed up versions of themselves. Like Robert Parrish came back.

00:07:41 Speaker_04
I forget it was whether he was on Charlotte or Chicago. It was like over. He was hanging on for a few more paychecks. It's like, ah, the chief man. It's so glad he's doing well.

00:07:50 Speaker_04
We never had, I don't remember a core guy coming back like this and the emotions that you would feel. The closest thing I can come to is when Bird was coaching the Pacers and he would come back as the Pacers coach is like, ah, this sucks.

00:08:05 Speaker_04
You know, got Larry Bird on the other side. But you know, you're a natural skeptic. You're an emotional skeptic from time to time. You're a zagger. You tried to zag against Wembley early this season. I loved it, I thought it was great.

00:08:19 Speaker_04
But yet you're an emotional guy too. So this is a gamut of emotions for you here.

00:08:26 Speaker_02
And, um, I was, there was just so much coverage of it. And he literally said, he's like, I'm so locked in. I don't talk to those guys anymore. And I was like, huh.

00:08:36 Speaker_02
But he's been, he's been well chronicled as sort of like a little bit of an aloof sort of like. Zen master goofball. And that just makes him more likable. I mean, I'm sure you remember the Grantland days and the clay theism and all of that.

00:08:49 Speaker_02
And like, I just felt like he's not the type to get wrapped up in this the way other players would. But when you, you could tell that he was wrapped up in it. And, and as was I, as was I, and the game lived up to it.

00:09:03 Speaker_02
Like I was very skeptical of this whole, I'm sure we'll talk about the, the Emirates NBA cup and then the whole thing.

00:09:13 Speaker_04
But I was just, I'm going to separate says the Emerson airline. What is it?

00:09:17 Speaker_02
It's an, it's an airline. It's an airline that will, they'll take you straight to Abu Dhabi. Yeah.

00:09:20 Speaker_04
Great. Okay. Good.

00:09:21 Speaker_02
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was skeptical of the whole thing, the entire thing. But, uh, I walk away from tonight being like, I don't even have anything to complain about. I really, I really don't.

00:09:36 Speaker_04
It was a great six hours. It reminded me of, remember we would always tease Jalen about somebody that we knew he wasn't cool with and he's like, no, no, we're cool. We're cool. No, no, no, we're fine. I wonder if that's Clay talking about the Warriors.

00:09:50 Speaker_04
I have no idea how much he talks to those guys. If you read between the lines with all the Warriors stuff, everyone seemed to think it was time for him to move on. Even the Warriors side, it's like, hey man, the guy was unhappy last year, which...

00:10:04 Speaker_04
You know, Kirk, like, you spent some time with the Spurs. Kawhi, the situation was a little similar, right? I mean, it was way more acrimonious, but it hit a point where it's like, all right, this doesn't work anymore.

00:10:15 Speaker_04
It's time for this dude to move on.

00:10:17 Speaker_04
And it seems like everybody's happy, but at the same time, when they're going against each other in a playoff game, and Curry's doing the night-night and, you know, grabbing the Golden State chairs, it's like, ah, there's a little bit of a fuck you in this.

00:10:30 Speaker_03
Fuck you, but they all have captain's hats on while they're saying fuck you to him. I guess but Dude, it was the CBA is a very cruel device. It's not a very nostalgic device and I think

00:10:42 Speaker_03
You know, this version of it, Bill, is really just so harsh on teams, and it's so punitive for teams that overspend on players that aren't good enough for numbers. And that's what Clay was getting to.

00:10:57 Speaker_03
And dude, I think, forget tonight just for a second, they're nine and two, they won in Boston, they got beat in Cleveland, they won at Oklahoma City, and then they just beat a Dallas team. They're on a hell of a run here.

00:11:11 Speaker_03
They look deep, and I'm here to say that Mike Dunleavy and that group, as hard as this choice was, it looks like they made the right team building choice to get the last, maybe, chance with Stephen Curry to get an MVP or to compete for a championship.

00:11:28 Speaker_03
So as hard as it was, I think they made the right call.

00:11:33 Speaker_04
Kirk's lights literally just turned off as soon as he got to that point. No, and you saw tonight, Buddy Hield was on the bench for crunch time, right? That would have been Clay.

00:11:42 Speaker_04
Because they needed the defense from that two guard spot, so Melton was out there and that was the difference. I really respect what they did because they're over or under, I think, before the year, I think it was 43 and a half.

00:11:56 Speaker_04
and like they're playing odds or even odds. I don't think any, it just felt like a team in transition that was kind of trying to chug along until January, February to make a trade for a disgruntled superstar was the vibe.

00:12:09 Speaker_04
But watching them these first three weeks, I don't know, Jacobs, do they feel like, would you go fringe contender, real contender? Where would you go?

00:12:18 Speaker_02
No, no. Good story. Good start team. I don't think this is scalable. Yeah. Yeah. This is not, this is not like a 55 win two seed in the West. I just, I just do not see it. I don't see it.

00:12:33 Speaker_02
I think this is a fast out of the gate team that will come back down to earth very, very soon.

00:12:36 Speaker_04
See, I see it because of the defense. I think that when we get to April, May, defense is what starts to separate people. And the defense that they play to me is top five, from what I'm watching.

00:12:49 Speaker_04
Especially when you think Minnesota slipped defensively, the Knicks have slipped defensively, you start going around the league. asking yourself who actually can play defense. I don't know how many, how many defenses do you love Kirk?

00:13:01 Speaker_03
No, not many. And that when they've won the championship, that's been their formula. They're going to be remembered for all the threes, but the defense, the Draymond has been running for years is great.

00:13:09 Speaker_03
And in this game down the stretch bill was, was a great example. We had Wiggins, like really guarding donches about as well as anybody can.

00:13:16 Speaker_04
Welcome back. Welcome back to the league.

00:13:19 Speaker_03
He looks different. And then you have Draymond himself really getting into Gafford and some of the key moments and turning that seven point lead into a tie game. And so the everybody's going to think of this game is like a microcosm.

00:13:31 Speaker_03
Everybody's going to think of this game for Steph and those late threes. But it was also some major stops by some A plus defenders. I will zag. I think this is for real. I think they could be 14 and I agree.

00:13:44 Speaker_03
in their next, if we wake up in a week or two, they're 14 and two, if you look at their next five games, that really seems like a contender, assuming Steph and Draymond are able to stay healthy, which at their age is a big question, obviously.

00:13:57 Speaker_04
Jacoby, still time. Still time to get on the bandwagon. I'm off. They're playing the banged up Grizzlies, at Clippers, Home Hawks, at Pelicans, and at your guy, Wimby.

00:14:14 Speaker_02
That's the next five.

00:14:15 Speaker_02
This is the same thing that's happening with the Bucs, is we're going to think very, very highly of the Warriors in two weeks, and we're going to think that the Bucs have righted the ship in two weeks, but it's just schedule-based.

00:14:26 Speaker_02
It's not basketball-based. Outside of Steph, who can get you a bucket? Who can get you a bucket?

00:14:34 Speaker_04
What's happening to you? Is it the three kids? Is that why you've become a negative guy?

00:14:39 Speaker_02
You were so positive and happy. Now you're just ground down by fatherhood. Now you're just the negative idol. It's Steph Curry. It's Steph Curry.

00:14:47 Speaker_04
And he's great. Yeah, but here's, it's Steph Curry, but it's also Wiggins looking like Wiggins from two, three years ago. And it's Draymond. No drama yet from him looking about as athletic as he's looked in a couple years.

00:15:02 Speaker_04
And that was the surprise to me because if you had told me they were going to trade him this summer of 2024, I'd have been like, you're right, it's time. Too much drama, too many things have happened. Maybe fresh start, try to get some assets.

00:15:15 Speaker_04
But now that would be crazy when you watch this guy play now. He's still one of the best five or six defensive players. With that said, he'll probably do something dumb in the next 48 hours. And that'll be it. I mean, he almost did it the other day.

00:15:26 Speaker_04
He did the flailing thing. Jacobs. I have a really important question to ask you about the night, night.

00:15:31 Speaker_02
Okay. I don't ask the question. I'll give you the answer. I think it needs to be reserved like a Mike Breen bang. I think it's being overused.

00:15:46 Speaker_04
Like a Mike Breen double bang or a Mike Breen bang?

00:15:49 Speaker_02
No, just a bang. You know what I mean? Probably a double bang, a 1.5 bang. It's being overused and it's diluting its effectiveness.

00:15:56 Speaker_03
It's being overused because he's winning these major games. He beat Oklahoma City on their home court the other night. He beats Clay tonight. He wins the freaking gold medal. Like these are not, he's not out there overusing it.

00:16:09 Speaker_03
So can I be the tie-breaking vote?

00:16:12 Speaker_04
I love it. I think it's great. It's, it's become like almost like a wrestling finishing move now. Now I'm like want it. When he went up for 25 seconds, I was like, do it, do the night night, do it.

00:16:26 Speaker_02
It's great. It's also good because it brings out like dad vibes. It's like go to bed, little child. Night, night. It's just very condescending.

00:16:34 Speaker_04
Well, and also it brings back memories to the France game, which was like a legitimately great American sports moment. And so every time he does it, I think of that. But I just feel like LeBron must be furious that he didn't think of this.

00:16:47 Speaker_04
Like he's probably fired his quirk management, whoever the guy is on his team, quirk addition management. How did you not give me the night night? I would have been doing that like 2013.

00:16:59 Speaker_02
You gave me a book. You gave me the Godfather. That was supposed to be my thing. You guys are supposed to come up with ideas like this for me. Why don't I have the night night? I do this weird stomp thing on my chest. It sucks.

00:17:13 Speaker_04
Kirk, where do you see Dallas right now? In the whole contender hierarchy for you, because they're a little off, but I think it's mostly because Luka doesn't look like Luka.

00:17:22 Speaker_03
These are the exact games that we're not seeing in the Eastern Conference. So it's unfair for me to almost judge them. They didn't really click until the second half of last year, and that's probably generous.

00:17:34 Speaker_03
It was really February when this team really started to click. So with the addition of, of clay Thompson. I think they're going to be very good. Uh, they're five and six, I think, which is probably not what they want to be.

00:17:48 Speaker_03
Um, but dude, I'll get, I'll, I'll say I'm not worried about the Dallas Mavericks. Um, I think their defense will come around. I think if you have Luca and clay and Kyrie, your offense is going to be fine against every team in the league.

00:18:01 Speaker_03
Um, so I'm not worried. I think this is just an awkward start and they're playing the kinds of opponents bill that we're not seeing.

00:18:07 Speaker_03
eastern conference teams have to play i was watching some of these eastern conference um emirates cup games this evening and some of the uh some of the basketball wasn't as good i would say uh i i noticed so you're i think the emirates cup is better last year

00:18:27 Speaker_04
Maybe it's peaked.

00:18:30 Speaker_03
I don't know.

00:18:32 Speaker_04
I'll tell you what I don't like about the Klay Thompson era in Dallas, when he takes 17 shots in a game and Kyrie Irving takes 13. If I'm the other team, I'm like, great. That sounds awesome. So Klay's going to take the second most shots on your team?

00:18:48 Speaker_04
Fantastic. We'll sign up for that right now. Cause I felt like Kyrie could have gone by anybody he wanted in that game tonight. And I still think he's terrifying. And I still feel like, I know they're, Klay's like the new toy.

00:19:01 Speaker_04
You know, it's like when Jacobs, when we used to play pickup once upon a time, we'd bring the third person and we'd try to get them involved in the first game. Then we want to stay in the court. We went back to what we did.

00:19:12 Speaker_04
Same thing, eventually Clay is gonna be, hey Clay, stand in the corner and you'll get your A3s, but the big boys are gonna handle this down the stretch, right? That's how this will play out, I would guess.

00:19:23 Speaker_02
I think so. Phil, I have a question for you.

00:19:27 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:19:28 Speaker_02
It's really about me. The Emirates NBA Cup.

00:19:34 Speaker_04
Is it the NBA Cup presented by Emirates or is it the Emirates NBA Cup?

00:19:37 Speaker_02
No, it's the Emirates NBA Cup.

00:19:39 Speaker_04
My bad, okay.

00:19:42 Speaker_02
And it's additive, it's very core, it is additive. Like these games would be played anyway at sort of a lower level of competition on a less cool looking court. And we get a weekend in Vegas with two good games.

00:19:55 Speaker_02
There's nothing I can like poke holes in logically about it, because it doesn't take anything from me, it gives me extra. But I'm asking you, what is my problem with it?

00:20:09 Speaker_04
So my son, who is doing homework tonight, like a good boy, came in and he's like, how come the courts are different? I'm like, oh, it's the NBA cup. And he's looking, there's three games on, he's looking at the courts. He's like, yeah.

00:20:23 Speaker_04
What's the point of this? And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, what's the point? And I was like, well, they did it last year. Remember the Lakers won? He's like, yeah. What's the point of this?

00:20:37 Speaker_04
And I was like, well, they, you know, they're five and then they go to Vegas and you win and, and, and the coaches get more money and the players get money. It's like, doesn't everyone already have money?

00:20:46 Speaker_04
Like, yeah, but you know, the courts and so as long as you just don't think what's the point. I think you can allow yourself to have fun.

00:20:55 Speaker_04
With that said, Kirk, I was so excited the Celtics, you know, I don't love Celtic losses, but I also don't want them to go to Vegas and play the two extra games.

00:21:03 Speaker_04
So I was like, if they were gonna lose to the Hawks in the first day of the NBA Cup, I wasn't shedding tears. Where do you stand on the NBA Cup, Kirk?

00:21:11 Speaker_03
I like it. I think we're going to need to see a little bit more. I have to say, if the three of us are kind of confused by the format, that's not a good sign.

00:21:19 Speaker_03
I think like the six groups of five teams where point differential matters, I challenge you to name any group and list the teams in it right now. Like none of us can do that.

00:21:28 Speaker_04
That's a problem. Yeah. When you can't name any of the groups in a thing built around the groups, probably a fundamental flaw.

00:21:34 Speaker_03
Yeah, I didn't know the Hawks were in the Celtics group until, uh, the game started.

00:21:39 Speaker_03
Um, you know, so I think some people have said, Hey, maybe we should just do this with the divisions, uh, and send a division rep to Vegas, maybe a couple of wild cards. I don't know what the solution is.

00:21:49 Speaker_03
Um, I like the idea and I believe old school Bill Simmons, maybe yellow page, page two, actually advocated for an end season turn.

00:22:00 Speaker_02
And at some point, this is you, you did this bill.

00:22:05 Speaker_04
I like it. I mean, there's a reason we waited to do the podcast till after day one of the NBA Cup. First of all, I was excited. They finally got a name for it, because last year we were calling it the IST. Remember?

00:22:18 Speaker_02
It sounds like something you get tested for and you're really concerned about the results. Yeah.

00:22:22 Speaker_04
It's like, oh my God, my IST came back. I might have IST.

00:22:26 Speaker_02
There's a reason I had rash on my balls.

00:22:28 Speaker_04
I have IST. This year we have the NBA Cups presented by Emredis. Emirates, Emirates. So here's three things I like. One is they finally, the NBA cup I like. Two, I think the courts are fun to either enjoy or complain about.

00:22:48 Speaker_04
The Celtics court tonight looked like a nuclear reactor hit it. The number one thing though is how everyone has to try until the bitter end because of this point differential. There was a moment in that Portland, Minnesota game, they're up 16 with

00:23:02 Speaker_04
five seconds left and like Jeremy Grant got thrown out of bounds. And I thought there was going to be a fight. All the tumble of starters were in there down 16. They invented the ball. They're like flying down and get like a layup.

00:23:13 Speaker_04
I was like, all right, that's cool. Is that guys trying.

00:23:17 Speaker_02
Tibbs is just running his normal rotation. I was looking at all the starters for the Knicks and I was like, oh, this is what he does anyway. So nothing has changed. Nothing has changed there. But again, it's all additive. It's just all additive.

00:23:31 Speaker_02
I really don't understand what I don't like about it because it just gives us more competitive basketball during a lull in the season. No, I know what you don't like about it. You don't like contrived things.

00:23:44 Speaker_04
It's fundamentally, this is contrived, but I still think it works. What were you going to say, Kirk?

00:23:49 Speaker_03
I don't think it should be in Vegas and apologies to our friends in Nevada, but I went there, Bill. I remember I saw you in the concourse on the semifinal day. Remember, I think it was a Tuesday and they had the two semifinals back to back.

00:24:01 Speaker_03
They clear out the building and bring on another audience. And that's a plot point. I think this should be in Barclays in Madison Square Garden.

00:24:08 Speaker_03
And then the final should be in Madison Square Garden because it was felt so weird to be in Vegas in the middle of the day.

00:24:14 Speaker_03
None of the team's fans were there like the Pacers fans couldn't make it out because they didn't know they were going there until like three days previous or something. So I wonder if it'd be better in New York City where it would be dark outside.

00:24:27 Speaker_03
If you go to Brooklyn, there are Pacers fans, or Bucs fans, or whoever else is making these semi-finals. They're already in New York. So I think they would be attended better. And I think, yeah, just the Vegas during the 2 p.m.

00:24:40 Speaker_03
tip-off on a Tuesday just felt really weird. But that would be one of the things I'd look at for them, is bring it to the East Coast, where Jacoby is, where there's two great arenas are, and tons of basketball fans.

00:24:50 Speaker_04
So bring it to Jacoby, that's what you're saying.

00:24:52 Speaker_03
Bring it to Jacoby. Bring it to Jacoby, bring it to the East Coast. And by the way, just put another meaningful basketball game in Madison Square Garden every year. What's wrong with that?

00:25:00 Speaker_04
See, I think the reason they're not doing that, Kirk, this is all part of the NBA's master plan.

00:25:05 Speaker_02
Oh, yeah.

00:25:06 Speaker_04
Six billion dollar expansion team.

00:25:09 Speaker_04
They're gonna make it a process, it's not gonna be an auction, it's gonna be, this is the price, you're gonna pay it, and by the way, wink wink, preferential treatment if you're building us a new arena in Vegas that's built for basketball only.

00:25:21 Speaker_04
They build this awesome arena downtown, whoever gets the group, so it's six billion for the team, another two billion for the arena, and then that is the arena that becomes for the NBA team, for the Aces, for the Summer League,

00:25:34 Speaker_04
and then for this NBA cup. And I think that's why it stays in Vegas. I don't think it ever leaves. That would be my guess. Does that make sense?

00:25:41 Speaker_03
That makes sense. And it probably is what they're doing. But yeah, they have Vegas.

00:25:46 Speaker_04
Vegas is in their sights as I think they want it almost to be like the hub of the league in a lot of ways, it feels like. Lots more to discuss. We're going to take a quick break.

00:26:00 Speaker_04
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00:29:18 Speaker_04
So Hawk Celtics tonight, which was the game of the day in a lot of ways, because, um, it was the biggest upset. The Hawks were 16 point underdogs on FanDuel heading into the game, which I thought was ridiculous because the line was.

00:29:31 Speaker_04
reflective of that Trey Young wasn't playing. And as a Celtic fan, I was like, crap, Trey Young's not playing.

00:29:37 Speaker_04
Now they're gonna just have long athletic guys, and they're gonna actually play defense, and we're not gonna be able to just pick on Trey Young with every offensive position in the last nine minutes of the game.

00:29:47 Speaker_04
No shots fired at Trey, but shots fired at Trey, because that's what Boston would've done. I thought the Hawks stumbled into their team tonight, guys.

00:29:56 Speaker_04
It's Jalen Johnson and Risa Shea and Dyson Daniels, who is now the best defensive swing in the league, I think. And if he's not, he's in the conversation for it. And it's just this athletic team with two bigs.

00:30:11 Speaker_04
Doesn't really matter who's in that guard spot. It could be Bogdanovich when he comes back. But it's a team without Trey that I thought fell into place. What'd you think, Jacobs, watching them?

00:30:23 Speaker_02
Dyson Daniels, I mean had a career night tonight, so it's easy to celebrate him, but he has been playing really well all year for the Hawks and and then you mix in Keaton Wallace and then you kind of start to get this like kind of like Oklahoma City Thunderlight thing going on where we got

00:30:39 Speaker_02
a bunch of long, fast defenders that are capable on the offensive side, but it's really hard to get baskets on. And you could tell that Daniels was just getting up in Jason Tatum early.

00:30:48 Speaker_02
Just like regular, normal actions that he does, just goes around a screen, and Daniels sticks his shoulder in there. He got called for a foul on one, but he was just making Jason Tatum uncomfortable the entire time.

00:30:59 Speaker_02
And I was really enjoying the game, but I was very, very thrown by Quinn Snyder's Sally Jesse Raphael glasses. I don't know what that was. And if you're younger, she used to have a talk show in the afternoon.

00:31:12 Speaker_02
They used to be really important for some reason. And she always wore red frames. I'm like, Quinn Snyder, what made you do that? What made you do that?

00:31:20 Speaker_04
He's been acting super goofy on the sidelines with his looks for two years. So Daniels was in the DeJounte Murray trade. And the trade was Daniels, Nance,

00:31:34 Speaker_04
an unprotected 2025 Lakers first, and the worst of either a Pelicans or a Bucks 2027 first, which now seems a lot more enticing than it did over the summer.

00:31:48 Speaker_04
I was watching the game tonight, just honestly thinking Murray versus Daniels, who would I rather have? Especially like with the ringer hundred. I just think Daniels is a better asset. What he does is more unusual. I think he's 21 or 22.

00:32:02 Speaker_04
Somebody that never really got a chance to play in the Pelicans because they had so many wings ahead of them. And they even had Herb Jones who did a lot of the same stuff that he does.

00:32:11 Speaker_04
I think if you do it over again, Kirk, just Daniels for Murray feels like a pretty fair trade, not to mention all the other stuff they had. That's one of the better trades anyone's made.

00:32:23 Speaker_04
It almost makes up for all the shit they gave up for Murray in the first place. Like who would you rather have, Daniels or Murray?

00:32:30 Speaker_03
Well, I think Daniels is the defender that Atlanta thought they were getting with Dejounte, but Dejounte just never showed up as a defender for them. It didn't work. I love Dyson Daniels.

00:32:40 Speaker_03
I think he's had freaking six steals, three games in a row, Bill. That is like Kawhi Leonard stuff. We don't see those numbers. He's a legitimate defensive player of the year candidate.

00:32:54 Speaker_03
And you're right, like looking back at that trade, I think it's fair to be, you know, It's fair to be on the bland side of the deal at this point, because I think Larry Nance also played very well tonight. He's at least a nice rotation piece.

00:33:06 Speaker_04
And New Orleans misses him, too. And yeah, yeah, they miss finishing games for them last year.

00:33:11 Speaker_03
He's a great player, a great rotation piece, I should say. And I think that Jalen Johnson is the other revelation. This dude had a triple double tonight. And when Trey Young is out there, we don't see these guys get to do this.

00:33:23 Speaker_03
And when Trey Young is out there, we see Trey Young being Trey Young. almost every trip down the floor. And so for me tonight, I thought it was Reveley. I don't know if this is sustainable, but I didn't know Jalen Johnson had that.

00:33:38 Speaker_03
I didn't know that he could go out and get 10 assists and score the ball and rebound the ball like that on essentially being a leader. And Dyson Daniels also sort of a really powerful two way playmaker, which is quirky offensive game. But I agree.

00:33:53 Speaker_03
I think this at least this game makes you think about an Atlanta future without Trey Young in it.

00:33:59 Speaker_04
and he has the ball a lot for them. It was a situation where he would come out of the game and then Jalen Johnson would have the ball a lot. Daniels sometimes, and it almost feels like they're interchangeable when they have Risa Shea out there.

00:34:11 Speaker_04
It feels like they just have these six, nine interchangeable, all kind of multi-skilled, good defenders, they know how to play. Jacobs, is it time? Do we open the trade machine for Trey Young? The trade was to see the trade machine.

00:34:32 Speaker_02
Who wants Trey Young? That's a very good question. Yeah. I was like, who, what team is Trey Young away from wherever they want to be? Cause there is not one in my mind.

00:34:44 Speaker_02
There's not a single team that is willing to give up what it takes to bring Trey Young in just salary wise. That makes them better. Like who is Trey Young away from their goals? Answer that question.

00:34:55 Speaker_04
It's an incredible question, and I look through, as you know, I'm the Picasso of the trade machine. I'm like, I'll find three trades right now. Like, snap my fingers, it's gonna happen.

00:35:04 Speaker_04
And you start going through, and it's like, eh, they probably don't want them. Well, they have point guard. Well, what are they, like a team like Brooklyn? Well, what do they want Trey Young for? They're actually playing well.

00:35:16 Speaker_04
Like they don't, it's not like they're, what's he going to do for them? Oh, Washington. Would they trade Jordan Poole and picks for Trey Young? Why would you do that? You start going through all the teams.

00:35:26 Speaker_04
And honestly, the only team I could find was the Lakers.

00:35:30 Speaker_02
That was it. Just think about what you're adding to, what you're putting into the fish tank. Another player.

00:35:38 Speaker_03
I think he might've found it Jacoby. The Lakers? Do they like their point guard right now?

00:35:45 Speaker_04
So that's where you have to go where it's like, it's, it's, it's, uh, D'Angelo Russell expiring. It's Rui.

00:35:53 Speaker_04
just to make the contracts work, it's, what did they do, that Hood Schiaffino, which they made him, his contract's now expiring, and then they have a couple firsts, and it's like, here's your chance to get out of the Trey Young business, get some picks, and build the team around Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels, which, by the way, I think's a good idea, and by the way, Trey Young's not playing well this year.

00:36:14 Speaker_02
Why would the Lakers do that? You're gonna call J.J. Reddick and be like, oh, we made a trade. Why would the Lakers do that?

00:36:18 Speaker_04
They traded for Westbrook.

00:36:21 Speaker_02
Fair. Why do they do anything? When you add Trae Young to the team, every other player that is still on the team is going to be like, this is going to be hell. Every other player. Unless you're just like a lob catcher.

00:36:34 Speaker_02
Every single person in the locker room is going to be like, this is going to be hell. Him and Davis, I kind of like that combo.

00:36:38 Speaker_04
I'm pushing it because I really want the Lakers to do it. Now, here's my other scenario for the Hawks.

00:36:42 Speaker_02
Lifelong Laker fan, Bill Simmons. Always rooting for the Lakers.

00:36:47 Speaker_04
What if I offered you Trae Young, sixth man? Just, just staring at me like the heads of two chickens.

00:36:57 Speaker_02
Well, how much are you going to pay the sixth man? Just try you coming off the bench.

00:37:02 Speaker_03
42 million dollars, I think. Yeah.

00:37:03 Speaker_04
It's like, you know what, he's a little overpaid, but he's a heat check guy coming off the bench for us. 22 minutes a game. Oh, you're not happy too bad. No. No. I don't know.

00:37:13 Speaker_04
I'm I'm just trying to figure out outs for them because I think they know they're the team I saw tonight is the team they should be.

00:37:19 Speaker_02
Here's what's happening, Bill, is you like the Hawks and I like the Hawks. I do. I've watched a lot. I want to see this. You want to see this version of the Hawks. You like this version of the Hawks better than the Trey Young version.

00:37:30 Speaker_02
So let me offer this to you. I like I like Snyder's length Hawks. That's defense like Pox is my Hawks.

00:37:37 Speaker_02
Let's let's let do who we offer sixth man Trey young to the fucking Hawks That was my point Yeah, you're trying to offer to another team like no coming off the bench.

00:37:53 Speaker_04
No, no, hey Trey This is gonna John Havlicek came off the bench Kevin McHale came off the bed.

00:37:58 Speaker_02
Oh great Come off the bench

00:38:05 Speaker_04
Uh, yeah, the big picture point is I, you would have thought like, ah, we'll find three teams for Tram, but there's so many point guards now and everyone's so afraid of taking salary that I don't know what the move is.

00:38:17 Speaker_04
So you could have probably talked New Orleans into it over the summer, but they traded Murray there. So I don't know. Is there any other team you could think of is, is Kirk the Spurs. That's a no go, right?

00:38:28 Speaker_03
Hell no. That's a hell no. Yeah. And I think Jacoby hit on it. And I actually texted a couple of friends around the league just to take their temperature on it. And they said there's no market for this guy.

00:38:38 Speaker_03
I don't know if they're right or wrong, but the number is again, the CBA is not this old CBA. Like it is. It is brutal if you start overpaying for talent, particularly starting guard. So everybody has a point guard, as we said. And I think he's

00:38:57 Speaker_03
He's not sort of enchanting anybody around the league, but I do like the idea of him taking a six man role on the land. I don't know if they can pull that off, but that would be interesting to see come to play.

00:39:12 Speaker_04
Like Brandon Ingram, nobody wanted him all summer. David Griffin basically put him on eBay, and everybody said, no, no, we're good.

00:39:20 Speaker_04
And then you watch the season, they had some injuries, and he's 25 a game, and he's finishing games for them as the crunch time guy. He's the guy with the ball in his hands the last two minutes. Nobody wanted him over the course of the summer.

00:39:31 Speaker_04
Nobody wants Zach Levine, who's averaging, I think 23 or 24 a game for the Bulls. It feels like there's this inflection point with prices. I think another one, honestly, is Dame. I, like people, they're like, Milwaukee blows it up.

00:39:45 Speaker_04
They'll trade Giannis, they'll trade Dame. It's like, will they trade Dame? Dame's going to make $60 million in two years. By the way, watch them play tonight. That's much like the Hawks.

00:39:54 Speaker_04
Like they were actually playing defense tonight cause he was out of the game. So I, I, I might, there might just be some guys that it's just that the salary makes it a non-negotiable trade. I don't know what we can say Jacobs.

00:40:06 Speaker_02
Well, two things, number one, and also let's just not forget just how much Trey Young has the ball in his hands at all times, and it's ineffective without it.

00:40:17 Speaker_02
So if you put him on a team in an ecosystem, you're basically just signing up for a Luka Doncic-like offense without Luka Doncic-like performance. And one thing we haven't discussed enough is, I don't like

00:40:30 Speaker_02
watched too much college basketball and grind tape. I study up before the draft on you guys, but all we heard about was how bad this draft was, how bad this draft was.

00:40:37 Speaker_02
I watched Zachary Reese's Shea absolutely cook the New York Knicks like Reese's Shea thus far. And we're like 11 games in has looked like a number one pick. He really has. And like, and I, I, you know, happiness is a function of expectations.

00:40:54 Speaker_02
My expectations were low enough for all these rookies that researches has been like, I'm like, yeah, that's, that's a piece. That's a, that's a piece.

00:41:01 Speaker_04
Should I have contacted you a month ago when I bought all that property on Reese's Shea Island house and Marcella thought I was kidding.

00:41:08 Speaker_02
Well, it's a developing part of France. Everyone talks about Monaco and Nice. Great shots in the water.

00:41:16 Speaker_04
By the way, I forgot to mention this with Dyson Daniels. Our friends, the NBA University Twitter feed, which is really good, they had deflections per game plus total steals, and they had the leaders.

00:41:29 Speaker_04
By the way, number two on the list was Nikoli Jokic, guy who allegedly can't play defense and yet is always in the right spots, touching everything. But he was 4.4, Ananobi's 4.2, Caruso's 4.1, Dyson Daniels was 7.3.

00:41:46 Speaker_04
He's almost three higher than everyone else in the league. And tonight, I think he had like nine or 10.

00:41:50 Speaker_04
When you watch him on defense, it's like watching a free safety in football who is just touching everything or almost getting an interception or hitting guys before. I was blown away by him.

00:42:03 Speaker_04
The key to the game for the Hawks was that Tatum, I don't think Tatum should have played. I think they made a mistake because Giannis stepped on his foot in the Bucs game. He didn't have the same burst. I thought he was pretty tentative.

00:42:14 Speaker_04
Jalen carried, Jalen and Derek White carried them. But he kind of ate up Tatum. I think if it was Tatum from five days ago, maybe it's not exactly the same. But I don't know, man. I've been watching this Hawks all year.

00:42:27 Speaker_04
That was one of my over-under locks. It's like, I think 37 and a half. It was down to 32 and a half. I bet more on it on Boston. I like this Hawks thing. One more thing about this whole combo. Guys who made a leap this season, the Hawks have two.

00:42:45 Speaker_04
Jalen Johnson and Daniels. Lamello obviously made a leap. Jacoby, you and...

00:42:52 Speaker_04
You and Verno talked about that today in a podcast where the highlight of the podcast was Verno trying to figure out if Michael Jordan ever had 15 assists in a game and then being unable to Google it for three minutes. I'm gonna Google it right now.

00:43:07 Speaker_04
It's like, hold on, we're gonna take a break, come back. I'm still Googling it. It just took forever. Why didn't he just Google Michael Jordan's career game logs? That should take him five seconds.

00:43:20 Speaker_04
But anyway, you talked about LaMelo on that pod, how the joy that he's playing with, they got killed tonight. And I think Cade's another one that seems like he went a notch up.

00:43:31 Speaker_04
Kirk, who else do you have that you feel like is just different than last year? Grady Dick. I agree.

00:43:39 Speaker_03
Grady Dick is leading all sophomore players in scoring, which is insane. He's ahead of Wemby. He has the ball a lot. He is like their primary offensive playmaker in some parts of the game. So I did not expect to see that. He had 32 tonight.

00:43:57 Speaker_03
I think there was the game they should have won against Denver last week, and that dude had 26. Like this guy, he doesn't look like an NBA player. His face changes color depending on what quarter we're in.

00:44:11 Speaker_03
He's he plays such a weird kind of aggressive Slashy game.

00:44:17 Speaker_03
I thought he was gonna be more of a spot-up shooter But he has made a leap and in Toronto looks like they have something there that I didn't expect to have last year You know what crazy dick what I like about him.

00:44:29 Speaker_04
He's like the guy who shows up and pick up That you're like who the fuck is this guy? And then you start watching him play and he does like a 27 foot step back and makes it and starts talking shit. You're like, what's going on with this guy?

00:44:43 Speaker_04
Um, he's very unusual. I feel like he, he occupies a specific part of the NBA universe with Tyler Hero. And they're just kind of over on the side. Like there's only, is there anybody else like that Jacobs?

00:44:55 Speaker_02
Well, the thing about Grady Dick is he didn't really do much last year beside like wear a cool draft suit and like exchange jerseys with Anthony Black. That's kind of like what I remember about him. And like Kurt, I was like, oh, this guy's a shooter.

00:45:10 Speaker_02
You know, he'll shoot at 40%. There's always a spot for like a tall shooter that can play a little defense. But then you watch the Raptors, which I do from time to time, and he's like, He's, he's getting to the rim.

00:45:22 Speaker_02
Like he's finishing with knuckles at the rim, getting past his defender and like taking on a second help defender and scoring. I'm just like, where was this guy last year? Like, what is this? And is it.

00:45:33 Speaker_02
And you know what, I'm gonna answer the question you asked, Kirk, too, because we were talking about it. R.J. Barrett's kind of taking a little mini-leap, too.

00:45:40 Speaker_02
And my question for you, Bill, because you're always astute to sort of point this out, is like, they're gonna score 95 points, right? It's gonna come from somewhere.

00:45:49 Speaker_02
So do you think these are actual mini-leaps, or it's just sort of a function of them being capable NBA players without superstars on their team?

00:45:57 Speaker_04
No, the Grady Dick thing looks real to me because it seems like he can create shots for him and other players even in fourth quarters. It doesn't seem fluky to me at all. The RJ thing...

00:46:10 Speaker_04
You know, he would have these little runs, even on the Knicks, where he would have these little, like, four or five week, where it's like, oh, RJ Barrett, oh, did you see these numbers the last 11 games? And then he would dip down.

00:46:19 Speaker_04
So, I don't know if I totally trust him. I think somebody at The Ringer wrote about it this week. I think it was Michael Pina about, I think Castle's really interesting. And I know he's not a leap guy, but, because he's a rookie.

00:46:34 Speaker_04
But I thought that was somebody, if I had the gun to my head, who's gonna win Rookie of the Year, I probably would've picked him. I didn't even feel good about any of the choices. But it feels like there's a lot of room on the ceiling for him.

00:46:47 Speaker_04
So I feel like he's gonna take a leap during this season, potentially. There's a couple Portland guys that I think are in this combo, too. I don't know if you saw tonight. There was some scoot stuff tonight. There was some scoot stuff.

00:47:04 Speaker_04
There was some scoot, beating guys off the dribble, banging off big bodies in traffic moments. There was some defense from scoot. There was some chemistry. It seems like the whole bench is rooting for him.

00:47:16 Speaker_04
Anytime he does anything, there's guys jumping off the bench.

00:47:20 Speaker_02
That's not a good sign. My rec team does that for me too. Every time I hit a jump shot, they over-celebrate because I'm so bad. Oh, it's one of those? Yeah, it boosts my confidence. It's annoying.

00:47:32 Speaker_04
You know, we should talk about the Portland, Minnesota. Portland's the weirdest team in the league. They have three legitimate centers. Tonight, Robert Williams was awesome. Aiton didn't play. Klingon comes in, he's really good too.

00:47:45 Speaker_04
They have all these swings and guards, and it just seems like it would be a really hard team to coach, but I think they're a little bit better and a little bit friskier than maybe I expected.

00:47:56 Speaker_04
And what really happened is they beat Minnesota, who's now six and five, Have we veered into the, is it time to start worrying about Minnesota stage of the season, Kirk?

00:48:08 Speaker_03
Again, I'm going to say no. I think they deserve time to sort of implement their new pieces with Randall and Dante. This is a bad loss though. You can't lose to that team in the Emirates NBA cup of all, of all times to lose to a bad team.

00:48:27 Speaker_03
Uh, so I think I would have expected them to win this game. I still think the West is loaded again. These aren't the kinds of records if they were playing in the East, they would have a much better record.

00:48:38 Speaker_03
So they're just playing tougher games, but they were down 20 to Portland with three minutes left.

00:48:44 Speaker_04
Like that's not great.

00:48:45 Speaker_03
It's not great. I think Finch is good. I love Ant. I think that Gobert starts you at worst as the fifth ranked defense in the NBA. I think they're going to be fine once they get settled into this season.

00:49:00 Speaker_03
Again, remember our Western Conference champion last year. didn't look good until February. So yeah, I think they, I think they're going to come around. I think they're just too talented on both ends of the court.

00:49:11 Speaker_03
They have a good coach and they have depth. Um, so I think this is just an awkward start from a group that hasn't really played basketball together very much. Um, I don't know what you guys think.

00:49:22 Speaker_02
It's too early to sort of really be concerned about it, but I just, if you are a Timberwolves fan, And you've convinced, so I've been watching Julius Randall play basketball for his entire stint on the Knicks. And there's been...

00:49:38 Speaker_02
There's been all star years and big, huge games and big shots and big moments. But he's a very, very frustrating player to be a fan of. And I think that nights like tonight, you see that where it's like you took nine shots.

00:49:54 Speaker_02
You're over three from three. You just didn't impact the game in any way, shape or form. And when you have someone like Anthony Edwards on the team, every time Randall has the ball, he starts to like operate. I'm like, I probably have that.

00:50:06 Speaker_02
I'd rather have that other guy doing that. You know, because he does this like mid-range sort of back down, like, like super, super poor, broke man, Carmelo kind of turnaround from the baseline thing.

00:50:17 Speaker_02
And it's, it's, it's very, very frustrating because it's just effective enough that he will keep on doing it.

00:50:24 Speaker_02
But on a team that also has Anthony Edwards, because the Knicks didn't have a player that could get his own shot like Randall did, which is why he was so successful there.

00:50:32 Speaker_02
But if you have Anthony Edwards, just the opportunity cost of his operating is just too great.

00:50:40 Speaker_04
So, we just had an election, I'm not sure if you guys saw, we changed presidents again, it was last week. One of the recurring themes every time you have an election is somebody does the, are we better off right now than we were four years ago?

00:50:57 Speaker_04
It's always like a question, right? If I'm a Timberwolves fan, I'm just fundamentally big picture, I know we're gonna start early, these guys have to learn how to play together, all that stuff. Am I better off in mid-November than I was in mid-May?

00:51:14 Speaker_04
Would be the thing I'd be thinking about. And the answer is unequivocally no. The answer is no.

00:51:21 Speaker_04
You could say Edwards is a little better and a little more confident, and the summer playing with all the stars, the things he learns, he's a better three-point shooter, I get all that.

00:51:31 Speaker_04
but the identity of that team, really from January on last year, how good they were defensively, how tough they were to play with their size, just how fucking weird they were night to night and just that there was nobody else like them and you felt like they could overpower people with their size and their defense and get enough scoring to make it work.

00:51:51 Speaker_04
And now I watch them and I don't know what their superpower is other than Edwards. Kirk made the key point, if you have Gobert, you're still gonna be one of the best seven defenses.

00:52:02 Speaker_04
But you're not gonna be compared to the 2004 Pistons with the team they have now. And I know they have to figure it out, but I thought Dillingham was gonna play more for them. He's not playing at all.

00:52:12 Speaker_04
They kept their fingers crossed with Joe Ingles, that didn't work out. They lost Slomo, who I thought was weirdly valuable for them last year. McDaniels has finally gotten going a little bit. for them.

00:52:24 Speaker_04
He was borderline unplayable before, but they just don't feel special to me. I have them, you know, OKC, Dallas, Denver, Phoenix, Golden State. I think they're below all five of those teams, Kirk. Is that crazy?

00:52:43 Speaker_03
I don't think that's crazy. Again, the West is so stacked that being the fifth or the sixth seed over there is no sort of bad situation. I mean, that's a good team. Whoever's going to land there is probably a pretty good team.

00:52:56 Speaker_03
You know, I think they had to do something. You can't pay Gobert and Towns. You just can't do that. That's not what their owner wants.

00:53:05 Speaker_03
And I hate to be the cap guy, but part of this move was to get off the Towns deal for all the out years and get some flexibility, maybe get off Randall when he expires.

00:53:17 Speaker_03
and have more flexibility for a team that's built around Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert long-term with players like Nas Reed and Dante DiVincenzo and Nikhil Alexander-Walker, who's been awesome.

00:53:29 Speaker_03
So, you know, again, this is the boring character in the NBA saga is the CBA, but I think it explains some of their reasoning for this trade in the first place, but Are they better off as a basketball team? No, you're right. They're not. Not right now.

00:53:46 Speaker_03
But long term, I think within the constraints of the of the team building sort of apparatus that the league is put on us, they see a path to be a championship team with Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert and a bunch of great role players in depth.

00:54:01 Speaker_03
Whether that'll work, I don't know. I think they're going to be fine. I think I'd put them at four or five right now if I had to say in the West.

00:54:09 Speaker_04
I can't get there. And you know, I actually, I talked myself into the Randall DiFincenzo part of the trade, Jacobs, before the season. It's like, you know what? No, it's like, you know, the Townes-Gobert thing was always weird. Put in Randall.

00:54:24 Speaker_04
Randall's a proven 2010 guy. DiFincenzo will give them some scoring off the bench, but.

00:54:30 Speaker_04
I just, you're right, we probably should wait until near the All-Star break to really look at this, but I just, they don't seem special to me in the same way anymore.

00:54:39 Speaker_04
Whereas, I watch a team like Houston, who, and I don't even know if they know who their best five guys are right now, but Houston has moments that remind me of Minnesota last year. When they put in the Eason and Thompson combo,

00:54:56 Speaker_04
And you're just like, holy shit, these guys are fucking destroying the game right now. They just have a lot of options. Part of me wonders, is that just gonna be this year's kind of fun, weird wrinkle to the season, Houston?

00:55:11 Speaker_04
I don't know if they're gonna be as successful as Minnesota was last year, but they remind me of the feeling I got from Minnesota last year. I'm like, Jesus, what is this team? Don't you feel that way with Houston?

00:55:20 Speaker_04
You watch them, you're like, Jesus, what's going on with this team? In a good way, not a bad way.

00:55:26 Speaker_02
I have, I have faith in Imani Doka, um, as a basketball coach.

00:55:31 Speaker_02
Um, maybe not as a life partner, but, um, the, the young nucleus that they have, like the, the young nucleus that they have, they have so many fun players to watch play basketball that I just feel like it's going to filter down.

00:55:47 Speaker_02
They've kind of got like, like a method. Man stoles from someone else. We said, if you can't get yourself a 10, at least you can sleep with five twos. It feels like they've got like, They're on the honor roll, but they've got like seven B-minuses.

00:56:00 Speaker_02
You know what I mean? I just feel like it's going to shape itself out. Like who their three stars are there to commit to long-term and what they build around.

00:56:10 Speaker_02
Because it seems like they've got seven guys that they could potentially build around as the future of their team.

00:56:14 Speaker_04
I think Nefikaya really enjoyed that analogy. I'm just guessing. He might not even be awake right now. We got to take one more break. A couple more things to discuss. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

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00:58:10 Speaker_04
All right, couple more things before we go on this. It's like three in the morning for Chicova. I don't even know how late it is there. How late is it there? Nice just standing for you.

00:58:21 Speaker_02
Yeah, bars are open for two and a half more hours.

00:58:23 Speaker_04
A former MVP returned tonight. Joel Embiid came back and played the New York Knicks and played for about five minutes and looked like he was gonna keel over. Then he left. Disappeared, was he hurt? Not sure, came back, played some more.

00:58:46 Speaker_04
Every time the game stopped, he was keeled over with both hands on his knees like a 53-year-old guy playing pickup over Thanksgiving. It was pretty brutal.

00:58:58 Speaker_04
Paul George looked good, Embiid did not, and they lost, and I guess this is just how it's gonna go as Embiid plays himself into shape, I'm doing air quotes. Philly's two and eight.

00:59:12 Speaker_04
I don't really see how this Embiid thing goes over the next, I don't know, six, seven, eight weeks, but most of the scenarios are not good. There's a couple scenarios where it's like three weeks from now, oh my God, Embiid, it's got his legs back.

00:59:26 Speaker_04
He just put up 48 on Orlando.

00:59:29 Speaker_04
There's a whole bunch of other scenarios where it's like, yeah, Embiid, they're gonna have to shut it down again for a week, or, oh, Embiid walked off again, or, oh my God, when Embiid plays, the other team has the highest offensive rebounding rate in the league because he just seems like he's anchored in the middle of the paint.

00:59:46 Speaker_04
It's not great, Kirk. They just gave him the extension. They built this whole team. They went all in. There was a lot of preseason hype as a possible champion, which I thought was ludicrous. It's not great. What are you seeing?

01:00:00 Speaker_03
I saw one of the worst games I've ever seen Joel play today. Uh, two of 11 and 26 minutes, three rebounds. Uh, this is supposed to be one of the most impactful players in the whole league, man.

01:00:12 Speaker_03
Uh, and he took it easy and he is, like you say, playing his way into shape, but also the Sixers are playing their way out of any kind of postseason potential. They're like two and eight.

01:00:25 Speaker_03
Uh, and I, I, it's a lot of Kyle Lowry too out there, uh, cause Maxi's hurt. And I just don't know how much deeper they can dig in a normal year. They'd be screwed right now, but the East is so bad below the calves and Celtics.

01:00:41 Speaker_03
There's still time for them to be fine. Um, but what, what I need to see is more from Joel. He did not look. active, he did not look competitive. Um, and if that's what we're going to get this year or this fall, like they're not going to be good period.

01:00:59 Speaker_03
Um, Jacoby was texting earlier. He didn't seem very impressed. Is that fair to say Jacoby?

01:01:08 Speaker_02
If you give me 40 seconds to tell a personal story, I play a lot of Golden Tee, as you guys know. And I'm very good at Golden Tee. I've got a profile. I routinely just put up high scores wherever I go. People sometimes crowd around.

01:01:23 Speaker_02
I've played Bill and beaten Bill every time we played. So natural. And one time, the great Connor Schell sent me to Vegas to go to the Golden Tee World Championship. And it was there that I found that I'm not good at Golden Tee.

01:01:40 Speaker_02
I'm just better than the people that have to be in my proximity. And I watched these men and women play Golden Tee at a level that I was just not ready to be around.

01:01:50 Speaker_02
And I felt like that's how Joel Embiid was this evening, because I had much higher expectations for this. because he played in the Olympics. There was no like reported surgery or injury or anything that serious.

01:02:04 Speaker_02
He had the suspension, which delayed his comeback even further. And I actually saw him in pregame and his arms was kind of skinny. And I was like, Oh, look, he's, he's in shape. But he was, he was me playing professional golden tears tonight.

01:02:16 Speaker_02
He was not ready for the speed and just the physicality of NBA basketball. There's, I remember one rebound bounce off the rim, and you watch enough NBA basketball as we do, you're just kind of used to the rhythm of how things work.

01:02:29 Speaker_02
And it was his rebound. It was a rebound for Joel Embiid. And as a Knicks fan, I'm assuming that we're going the other way. And Cat just kind of circled around it, but grabbed it and put it back. And I was like, what was that?

01:02:41 Speaker_02
It was like he wasn't even trying. So this was more of a me problem that I expected so much more from Joel Embiid because he looked like someone who hadn't played for two years and was just kind of like coming back and should have come off the bench.

01:02:57 Speaker_04
Yeah, so this was something that became a real problem for them in the playoffs. Him protecting the boards from offensive rebounders, people crashing, people out-hustling him, basically. It was a big reason why the Knicks won that series.

01:03:10 Speaker_04
Then you go to the Olympics. It was a big reason why Kerr had trouble playing him, even when he was able to score, even against, when they played Jokic. Jokic had four fouls and he put a couple shots, but he was still giving up

01:03:23 Speaker_04
the boards and it just, it feels like when you watch him bead, when he, he can still get the shots that he wants whether they go in or not, whether he's in shape or not.

01:03:34 Speaker_04
It just seems like he can barrel around, whirl around, he can get positioned near the basket. But what goes are the protecting his own rim when he's on defense and just the speed of just being able to move around where it just seems like he's,

01:03:50 Speaker_04
doing this as guys are kind of flying around him. And then there's a clumsiness that seems to ratchet up when the less in shape he is around the basket where he'll get in position, then he'll just come crashing down. I just I don't see it.

01:04:05 Speaker_04
I really feel like there might've been too many injuries for him to come back for at the level that he was at two years from now. So this has now become one of the big stories of the year is, and people are gonna go, well, he's hurt.

01:04:18 Speaker_04
He's gotta play himself back in shape. Well, it's mid-November. The Sixers got eliminated from the playoffs at the end of April. He didn't have to play in the Olympics, he did. I don't know how you can't,

01:04:32 Speaker_04
why you can't stay in shape when you're rehabbing. I guess I just don't understand enough about it.

01:04:37 Speaker_04
If your knee hurts, aren't there still ways to stay in shape so you don't look like you're completely, completely, completely gassed four minutes into a basketball game? I don't get it. Go ahead, bro.

01:04:50 Speaker_03
Can I ask you guys a question? If this were Shaq, right, if you're tracking Shaq's career from Orlando all the way through the end, what era Shaq is 2020 for Joel Embiid?

01:05:01 Speaker_04
This is a really important point, and it's something we talked about this summer. This is what happens to big guys. So right now he's in 2000, what he looked like tonight, he's in the 2008 Phoenix range.

01:05:15 Speaker_03
Yeah. Right? Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, Phoenix era. And it's not pretty, but this is what it looks like. I'm sorry, like, it doesn't always- He's been in the league 11 years.

01:05:27 Speaker_04
You know, I don't know, I'd be losing my, if I was Sixers fan, I'd be losing my mind. I would just be like, how did all of this happen? Why did he play in the Olympics?

01:05:39 Speaker_04
Why didn't you tell us what happened with him with his legs before the season started? Why was there all this mystery around it? Is he healthy now? What's wrong with him now? Can you tell us?

01:05:50 Speaker_04
And it just seems like they're, I don't know, being super tight-lipped about everything. Plus they gave him the extension, which is the other piece of this.

01:05:58 Speaker_04
They gave him this massive extension, which is very similar to what happened with the Pelicans with Zion. But they kind of doubled down on somebody who had never really shown that they could stay healthy for that long.

01:06:07 Speaker_04
And that's, you start doing that, you can't come back from that with the way the cap is now. I don't know, bum me out. I like watching him bead when he's healthy. And I just, the guy tonight didn't even look close.

01:06:18 Speaker_02
There's a version of this where after the all-star game, he's back to being MVP and B because we've seen, we've seen peak and B to be absolutely dominant just as night after night, not just scoring.

01:06:29 Speaker_02
Like, do you remember when they used to just like give it to him at the nail and like run around him? And he would just either, if you backed off him, he would turn and shoot, or he would back you down if he had a mismatch.

01:06:39 Speaker_02
Like there was a while where they would just, I think Doc was the coach, where they would just give it to him at the foul line, and just, that's how they started their offense, and it was beautiful.

01:06:47 Speaker_02
Because he was playmaking, he was shooting, he was going to the rim, he was step backing, and now it just seems like that guy just doesn't exist anymore.

01:06:56 Speaker_04
How does it play out for you, Kirk?

01:06:59 Speaker_04
I'll just tell you this, I've been around a long time, and we talked about this over and over, just with the history of the league, and I was talking about how Blake Griffin was a good example of this, who had a different set of injuries than Embiid did, but at some point, there were too many of them, and it passed the point of no return, and you can't come back.

01:07:15 Speaker_04
And that's what we've seen over and over again. Zion's a really unusual case, because it just seems over and over again, it's hamstrings.

01:07:22 Speaker_04
And I was driving around with my wife yesterday and I had Termini and Eddie on and they were talking about him and my wife was like, I don't understand. How do you have chronically bad hamstrings? You just have to stretch and stay hydrated.

01:07:35 Speaker_04
What's wrong with this guy? And I was like, honey, we've been asking this for six years.

01:07:40 Speaker_02
There is no answer. Why does she listen to Termini and Eddie with you? Spousal abuse. Better question.

01:07:50 Speaker_04
It was her listening after five minutes straight of her going, get these guys off and put music on. I was like, I just want to hear this top part.

01:08:00 Speaker_03
I love those guys. I think to answer your question, I think This is Miami. First of all, Shaq's a better player, but I would put him in that optimistically the Miami era Shaq.

01:08:10 Speaker_04
I think there is six Shaq. Okay.

01:08:12 Speaker_03
I think there's a chance that he is still capable of turning a corner and getting in shape. Um, So I think that's the optimistic version.

01:08:22 Speaker_03
I think the pessimistic version is Phoenix Shack, which is like, we're never going to see what we thought we were used to seeing ever again. Um, so I, it feels like he has about 30 games to figure this out.

01:08:34 Speaker_03
Uh, and if he doesn't, that contract is going to be an albatross, plain and simple, like an all timer and all part of me wonders why they brought her back at all.

01:08:44 Speaker_04
I don't understand what the upside was of It just feels like it would be way easier for him to get hurt worse than whatever upside you get from actually playing him. A couple more things I had for you guys.

01:08:57 Speaker_04
Oh, this is along the lines of the injuries thing. I heard... Jacoby and Verno, before Verno spent four minutes Googling MJ's assist record, you guys were talking about why there are more injuries this year.

01:09:09 Speaker_04
And I was walking the streets of LA, and I was like, you know what, I have a take on this, and I'm gonna drop it on my podcast tonight. And it's not even that, I might have even said this take before. I just think basketball is way faster, you know,

01:09:26 Speaker_04
more aggro to play, there's more running, there's more stop and start, there's more collisions. It's a completely different sport than it was 40 years ago.

01:09:34 Speaker_04
And anybody who says differently because they watch like on TikTok, the montage of the Bad Boy Pistons clothes lining a couple of guys like, I'm telling you. People played way harder now than they did in the 80s and 90s. And here's how I know.

01:09:49 Speaker_04
Go on YouTube and watch any of the regular season games from back then. There's not guys chasing out on the side and flying out. There's not like these massive collisions over and over again. It was just completely different.

01:10:00 Speaker_04
It was a lot of post up stuff, a lot of guys standing around. The fast breaks were like nice and smooth and well orchestrated and just layups. I just think it's a more violent sport now, for lack of a better word. That's what I see.

01:10:14 Speaker_04
Chet Holmgren got hurt on a violent collision where he's trying to protect the basket, which by the way, he does a million times, right? And it finally went wrong on him. But I just think the way the sport's played now contributes to it.

01:10:26 Speaker_04
And I don't really think there's another answer. What do you think, Kirk?

01:10:30 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think so. I think pace and space are a big part of it. And tonight was a great example. We were texting about the, the sort of awful Tim Hardaway injury that happened in, in the Detroit game.

01:10:40 Speaker_03
Uh, and, and he got that, that was a very violent play. And then in that same game, I think it was Jade and Ivy. got caught like on a closeout and on his spine. And then you look at all the pelicans and the hamstring injuries.

01:10:55 Speaker_03
I think those are resulting from the sport being faster and really demanding on on athletes being athletes for a huge amount of time, running up and down side to side in ways that you're that Kevin McHale never did or Robert Parrish never did.

01:11:12 Speaker_03
And I think both of those things are a factor. It's still a very physical sport. And 82 games of this is the other thing I would say is it's not just the game is faster and wider. We're still asking the guys to play 82 of them.

01:11:28 Speaker_03
And that's a lot plus playoffs, plus potentially the Emirates Cup championship, that 83rd game for two lucky teams. So I think All of those things lead into it, but you're exactly right. It's the demand on the bodies in the patient space era.

01:11:46 Speaker_03
It's just unprecedented by MBA standards.

01:11:49 Speaker_04
Plus, Jacob's not being able to do cocaine anymore like he could in the 70s and 80s. I was going to go the other way.

01:11:55 Speaker_02
They don't drink enough beer. I mean, that's really what it is. Look at The MVP of the league, the undisputed best player in the league is fat. And he doesn't jump and he doesn't run fast.

01:12:08 Speaker_04
He's not fat, he's lumpy.

01:12:10 Speaker_02
He never gets hurt. Do you know why he doesn't get hurt? Because he doesn't have fast twitch muscles. He doesn't change directions.

01:12:16 Speaker_02
He doesn't jump in the air and collide against his defender and then double clutch and try to do a 360 and finish with his left hand.

01:12:21 Speaker_02
And I think that I am joking somewhat, but it just speaks to your original point is it's just so much faster and you kind of now have to be an absolute physical freak of nature to play the sport, to play this sport.

01:12:36 Speaker_02
And then you look at someone like Zion where it's like, yeah, he's 300 pounds. He could 360 windmill. That's not normal.

01:12:42 Speaker_03
That's not normal.

01:12:43 Speaker_02
It's not normal. And when you watch him play, he goes, he goes into his defender and he bumps into his defender, clear space and finishes with his left hand. And like there is collision after collision in the air, which leads to things like Chet.

01:12:56 Speaker_03
And if you look at Bill, one other thing, I was talking to Rod Adams from the Warriors. You remember Ron Adams, their old coach. And he told me one time, he's like, Kirk, basketball used to be a two-foot sport, and now it's a one-foot sport.

01:13:08 Speaker_03
So if you look at Jokic's teammate, Jamal Murray, he tore his ACL doing what? A euro step. That move didn't exist 25 years ago. DeJounte Murray tore his. Jonathan Isaac tore his. A lot on these one-legged moves.

01:13:22 Speaker_03
So it used to be two feet in the paint, drop step in this. And now it is torque on that one foot, drive, and that's very violent on your knees, and I think on your muscles too.

01:13:36 Speaker_04
But it was just from a guy's- That's how Derrick Rose got hurt, by the way, when he, same thing, flying in the basket, remember?

01:13:42 Speaker_03
Yeah, one foot. here I go as fast as I can, Eurostep, decelerate, put everything on my lower body that I can. And it was just a guy who'd been in the league for 50 years being like, here's something that's different.

01:13:55 Speaker_03
And it was so authoritative and simple. But I do think like, just like those fundamental offensive moves, like going from the drop step to the Eurostep increased a lot of injury risk for our guys like Jamal Murray.

01:14:10 Speaker_02
Not to mention when you Eurostep, you're swinging your elbows through your defender's face. Don't forget that part.

01:14:19 Speaker_04
Another thing along what Kirk said.

01:14:21 Speaker_04
So you look back like something, as you know, I'll go on eBay at all hours and I'll go in weird auctions and they'll sell the shoes from the fifties, sixties and seventies, you know, and you see the shoes, those guys were like, Jesus, like how the fuck did they play in these?

01:14:37 Speaker_04
Even when you get to the eighties, see like the first, the first Air Jordans, even those would be crazy to play in now there because These guys were flying coach because they were wearing certain equipment that didn't- Drinking beer.

01:14:51 Speaker_04
You weren't doing Eurostep and fucking converses in 1973 because your knee would have gone the other direction and probably gone in the first row. So you kind of had to be careful with the equipment.

01:15:02 Speaker_04
And now the equipment's so good, these guys feel like, I can go full speed, stop, do two hop steps, then crash into somebody. I don't know.

01:15:12 Speaker_04
I really genuinely feel like the game is way more violent and faster, but if you mention this to anybody who played in the league in the 70s and 80s, like if I said that to Eddie Johnson on his show, he'd be so fucking mad because they'd just get insulted.

01:15:26 Speaker_04
Like, how dare you? We were playing so hard back then. It's like, I don't know what to tell you. We have the clips.

01:15:34 Speaker_02
I've never missed ESPN sports science for a single second before this conversation. I remember sports science. Yeah. I've never missed that segment in my sports media diet until right now, because I want to hear what he stepped with his right foot.

01:15:49 Speaker_02
It's like the, it's like 14 elephants going 40 miles an hour. And then he turns like an F one car and around the turn. And then when he steps with his left, But it is like the force of a gorilla pounding on a rock as hard as it can.

01:16:04 Speaker_02
And then he turns like a fish avoiding prey. You should bring the show back. Yeah, let's do it.

01:16:09 Speaker_04
Here's the other point to this combo. The Ultimate Zag, we've had injuries this whole time, and this year is no different than any other year.

01:16:17 Speaker_04
You go back and you look at all the stars, like our guy Jalen when he was playing, all the guys who got hurt during that era, Grant Hill, Chris Webber, you go on through, a lot of guys either had careers cut short, Tracy McGrady had a ton of knee injuries.

01:16:33 Speaker_04
You go back to the 80s, like Ralph Sampson, who was basically Wemba Nyama before Wemba Nyama, And he took a hard fall in the Boston Garden, was never the same, and had knee injuries after that.

01:16:44 Speaker_04
So we've had injuries all the way through, but to me it's, I spend more time watching basketball now being scared for the guys than I can ever remember before. Like there's plays you're watching real time going, oh no, oh God.

01:16:59 Speaker_04
Or like even like the landing, like people, these three point shots where they're just constantly landing on someone's feet, like Tatum the other day. I don't know, it's a Molotov cocktail of injuries.

01:17:10 Speaker_04
So one other thing I had, I had a couple other small things for you, Jacob, is this one's just for you. You know, Derek White, can we all agree, shaving his head, great move, right?

01:17:21 Speaker_02
Trey Young, follow suit, bro. Oh, I have a different guy for you. You're in the building, Trey Young. Oh, I'll guess who it is.

01:17:29 Speaker_04
Okay, who's the next Derek White?

01:17:32 Speaker_02
Sucks.

01:17:34 Speaker_04
It's time, Suggs. Wow.

01:17:35 Speaker_02
Was that what you were going to say? Yes. I knew it. I knew it. I love Suggs so much. Right in my notes.

01:17:41 Speaker_04
When does Suggs shave his head?

01:17:44 Speaker_02
Listen, you know, our friend and colleague here, Kirk Goldsberry, he's a big Manu guy. And Manu just sort of like worked it.

01:17:53 Speaker_03
Right.

01:17:54 Speaker_04
That was an Argentinian thing, though.

01:17:56 Speaker_03
Well, and he came off the bench, too. So Trey Young could take two things, I guess.

01:18:03 Speaker_04
From our man Manu. I think it's time for sucks. Here's another one I got for you. If you gave David Griffin truth serum and you said, yo dude, if you had to do it over again, would you have traded Zion last summer?

01:18:21 Speaker_04
Kept Brandon Ingram and kept Dyson Daniels. and tried to basically sell as high as you possibly could on Zion overdoing this whole rollercoaster ride another year, would he say, yeah, shit, I should've traded him, Kirk?

01:18:37 Speaker_03
It's getting close. I will say yes. I will say yes to that. Uh, because it appears like here we are one more year. And I think for me, this was the breaking point year for Zion. I don't know where Griff is, but Dyson Daniels looks like a real player.

01:18:52 Speaker_03
Uh, Larry Nance, as we mentioned earlier, and by the way, don't forget the picks. Um, so if you had traded Zion, you would have gotten something probably pretty significant back.

01:19:02 Speaker_03
Um, at that moment, remember the play in games, he, he was playing really well and then he got hurt there too, uh, against the Lakers.

01:19:12 Speaker_03
I'd say yes, because it looks like at this point, the other thing, and I'd say to David Griffiths, he's done a great job drafting, Herb Jones, Trey Murphy. These are nice players he's put together there.

01:19:25 Speaker_03
He could do a great job with whatever they brought back, either in draft assets or talent, I think. So I'd say yes, I think that's a good point.

01:19:33 Speaker_03
And I wish I wasn't saying yes, because Zion is my favorite NBA player to watch when he's out there being Zion. doing all those aforementioned dangerous moves, putting more torque on his one leg than anybody else in human history ever has.

01:19:48 Speaker_03
Could you imagine the sports science segment on that, Jacoby?

01:19:53 Speaker_04
Now your favorite player is Scoot Henderson. My son said today, we were talking about Zion, and he was like, thank God we didn't get those boxes, because the Zion rookie, the prison boxes, And they were super high because there was so much Zion hype.

01:20:07 Speaker_04
And I was telling him like, we got to wait. The price are too high. They'll dip down. And then Zion, a couple of good things happened. They dipped up and we just kind of forgot about it.

01:20:16 Speaker_04
And now it's like, you know, now I said to him, probably the same thing's going to happen with Wambiniama. Just be relieved we never got the boxes. I'm just feeding Jacobi.

01:20:28 Speaker_03
This is unnecessary.

01:20:31 Speaker_04
Jacoby, are you back in? Cause you had one good game against Utah.

01:20:34 Speaker_02
Two good games, two good games. Sacramento. Here's the thing is my criticism of the Victor Luz Benyama shot diet started two weeks ago and now it's become mainstream. It's like your favorite band that blew up.

01:20:48 Speaker_02
So now it's like, yeah, it's like, everyone's doing it. So now it's like, all right, everybody have fun. You can play with my toys. I'll make new toys. That's how I feel.

01:20:58 Speaker_04
Kirk, do you like Jacoby's theory that Wemby is basically like a kid who's been homeschooled and given candy for dinner every night and has never been scolded or yelled at or even like had a hand raised?

01:21:09 Speaker_03
No, I do not like this theory at all. Uh, I think he remains the best prospect and pro basketball. Um, I will meet him halfway though.

01:21:19 Speaker_03
If there's something that really irritates me about the young man's development, it's his jump shot and his tendency to lean on it too much when it's more Westbrook than Curry. And I feel like nobody can stop this guy inside of eight feet.

01:21:34 Speaker_03
that I've seen, and I feel like he needs to do that, and the team needs to help him get there more often. He's shooting 25% from three. His jump shot in the mid-range is one of the worst in the league efficiency-wise.

01:21:50 Speaker_03
This is not unusual for a young potential superstar. But it's frustrating when that young potential superstar has the potential to be the most dominant interior player of his era.

01:22:01 Speaker_03
And so every time we're spending more and more time away from the basket, we're not getting towards his true calling, which is to be, I think, the best player near the hoop, Bill.

01:22:11 Speaker_02
Kirk, I want to ask you a question, right? Because I know you know this more than almost anybody on the planet. We always talk about what he's shooting from three, what percentage he is or what he did that night, right?

01:22:23 Speaker_02
But you know better than anybody on the planet that not all three pointers are created equal. You know what I mean? There's a difference between like a catch and shoot, swing, swing, corner three, when you're buck naked.

01:22:33 Speaker_02
And when you're six foot eight, seven foot six, and you're taking step backs with like a point guard on you, or you're shooting from 28 feet instead of toes on the line. Like it's, it's not just that.

01:22:45 Speaker_02
He's such a thus far this season, a poor three point shooter, albeit he has shot well last two games. It's the it's it's the it's not what you do. It's how you do it. It's the threes that he's getting that I find so frustrating as well.

01:22:57 Speaker_02
It's like you're seven foot six. Why are you taking Dame Lillard type threes? Why?

01:23:03 Speaker_03
Right. Particularly in a team environment where those shots were outlawed for for years when there were guys on the roster that probably could do that.

01:23:09 Speaker_03
So, you know, we were the we were the last team to sort of let our players dribble into threes when I was around there. So I agree with this. And again, his shot diet is something that needs to be talked about and improved and optimized.

01:23:24 Speaker_03
And for me, yeah, you're right. This dude should probably start with catch and shoot threes and shots near the basketball hoop.

01:23:34 Speaker_03
These off the dribble Eurostep, when they work, it looks great when his step back works, I should say, but it doesn't work enough. And it's hurting the team's offensive efficiency overall.

01:23:45 Speaker_03
So I think this team, if it wants to compete, they need to optimize their star player.

01:23:51 Speaker_04
You know, in the rewatchables, we subscribe to a one for them, one for them, one for them, one for them, one for us philosophy. Jacoby benefited from one from us when we did Project X. Just a definition of a one for us.

01:24:05 Speaker_04
I think with Wembley, they should have a one for them, one for us philosophy. It's like, you can shoot that three every once in a while, but that's gonna be a one for you. We need to near the bass. How about, how about little eight footers?

01:24:18 Speaker_04
How about like that little baseline bank shot you have? How about studying some Kareem Skyhook stuff? Because guess what, nobody will ever be able to block it from seven feet. Just kind of vacillate between those two worlds.

01:24:31 Speaker_04
I never think, he should never shoot more than one third of his shots should be threes. If it's anything higher than that. All it does is take them away from around the basket, the rebounding. I've talked about this stuff many times.

01:24:43 Speaker_04
Last thing I have for you, Jacobs. Jovic today had the worst in-game broken nose I've seen in a while. Did you see it?

01:24:50 Speaker_02
No, I did not see it.

01:24:51 Speaker_04
He was a collided head and he was walking off and his nose was like, it was one of those. Felt bad. Thoughty. You've had how many broken noses playing hoops?

01:25:05 Speaker_02
I've had a lot of broken noses, not all of them playing hoops, but most of them playing hoops. It's getting to the point where my nose is just, it's a collection of cartilage that doesn't speak to each other anymore.

01:25:15 Speaker_02
So when I break it playing hoops, I stop the game for like 15 seconds and people are like, your nose is broken. I was like, no, it was like that before. And I just continue to play. I just continue to play.

01:25:26 Speaker_04
Kirk, any last predictions before we go? NBA season through three weeks?

01:25:30 Speaker_03
I want to lose. Yeah. When did the calves lose is the right one to finish on. I think this team goes at least 16 to know if you look at their schedule, I don't want to jinx it, but if I'm just playing the numbers, I think they can go.

01:25:43 Speaker_03
I think they play your team in Boston coming up. Right.

01:25:48 Speaker_01
That's sweet.

01:25:49 Speaker_03
Yeah. I think they, that's going to be one of the big games early tomorrow. Yeah.

01:25:54 Speaker_04
home Chicago, home Charlotte, and then they'd be going for 16-0 against Boston.

01:26:01 Speaker_03
And so I think only one team has done more than 15-0, and that was the Warriors that did 24-0, Grantland era, Warriors, Durant, oh no, it was the right after Grantland, it was the 15-16 Warriors.

01:26:11 Speaker_04
Some similarities to that Warriors team that I know a bunch of people have brought up, but new coach comes in, there's good nucleus in place, they were pretty good last year, but not, something was missing, and now it all kind of fell into place.

01:26:24 Speaker_03
Incredible shooting, jump shooting, and then high defensive potential with their bigs. So I like that analogy. I'm not ready to give them warrior status.

01:26:34 Speaker_04
No, but you know what I mean. Yeah, nobody's going to. But that 2015 Warriors team was 30-1 to win the title before the year and ended up going 67-15. And even as they were winning playoff rounds, people were like, eh. Can you win a title this way?

01:26:52 Speaker_04
And I feel like we'll be doing that with the Cavs as they keep going. What were you saying Jacobs?

01:26:57 Speaker_02
Do you think it would be good for the Cavs to lose a game just to sort of end this? I do.

01:27:05 Speaker_04
Interesting. To me, it's like they have a real chance if Porzingis is out until mid-December range that they could make a real run trying to be the one seed, which I think is incredibly valuable. As you know, I care about having a game seven at home.

01:27:21 Speaker_04
It's one of my crazy takes that I've planted my flag on over the years. Game sevens at home, good. But I think they could do it, because this Celtics team, It's pretty vulnerable game to game.

01:27:33 Speaker_04
Like I went to the Brooklyn game Friday that they almost lost, they end up beating in Brooklyn and OT, Atlanta tonight.

01:27:39 Speaker_04
They don't have a lot of size, you can get to the rim on them without Porzingis and with Horford at this different point in his career where they're just trying to keep him ready for April, May, June.

01:27:50 Speaker_04
They're not as deep as I think people seem to think they are. They're not the same team as last year, at least right now, they will be. but I think Cleveland could get some distance on him.

01:28:00 Speaker_04
That's gonna be a tough spot for the Celtics next week if they're not 100% healthy, because this Cavs team I'm watching, they seem incredibly, incredibly confident in who they are and that they really have good chemistry.

01:28:14 Speaker_04
They've figured out the Mitchell-Garland end of the game stuff, at least so far, right? I think Mitchell's taking, he's giving up real shots this season.

01:28:22 Speaker_03
So Garland is there. Garland is their crunch time guy. It's Donovan's their main time guy. And then it goes to Garland for French time. And it's been great. And, and Evan Mobley has been better. Um, Ty Jerome's been great. Uh, they're fine.

01:28:38 Speaker_04
Classic, right? That they, he, he was on the Warriors a couple of years ago and Kerr loved him. And, uh, and then Atkinson just kind of filed it away and then took them to Cleveland. And, you know, he's like a six man of the year candidate.

01:28:51 Speaker_03
Yeah, so that's the spot they need to really get production from is the wing in between their incredible front court and their incredible back court. Can they find some Dean Wade magic, some Karis Lavert magic, some Okoro magic, and then Ty Jerome.

01:29:05 Speaker_03
So they found some depth there. I think they're the real deal. I'm not ready to say they're going to beat your Celtics, but I could definitely see them being undefeated going into that game. And it's in Boston, right, Bill? I think that game next week.

01:29:17 Speaker_04
It's in Boston. I'm taking the Cavs completely seriously. I think they're legit good. I don't think there's any bullshit with this. I think it's real.

01:29:26 Speaker_02
It has me starting to look back at the Kenny Atkinson, Brooklyn Nets era, because there were some teams, they were, because that like, Jared Allen was their carousel, they're now currently on the Cavs. They had the best D'Angelo Russell, ever.

01:29:42 Speaker_02
He's never going to return to that. And they had like Jared Dudley and they're having, they had these like, um, bench celebrations.

01:29:48 Speaker_02
They felt like a true, great chemistry, good vibes, young, vibrant team that was coming together and winning games and going to the playoffs, which sort of enticed the, the Kyrie KD invasion, which sort of ended that era.

01:30:02 Speaker_02
And I'm starting to look back and I'm being like, huh? Like, Huh, maybe these guys are a really, really good coach.

01:30:09 Speaker_02
Maybe they're a really, really good coach that sort of tried to upgrade through superstars and it completely backfired for a million different reasons.

01:30:15 Speaker_02
But you think back at Kenny Atkinson as a Nets head coach, and they're not going to build a statue outside of Barclays. But like when you revisit those years, you can sort of see the seeds of this success.

01:30:28 Speaker_04
What do you think their over under is right now for wins for the season? If you had to guess. 58 and a half. What do you think it is, Jacobs?

01:30:36 Speaker_02
I'm gonna go 62.

01:30:40 Speaker_04
62, that's 55 and a half. They're undefeated. 55 and a half right now.

01:30:46 Speaker_03
55 and a half. What's Boston?

01:30:49 Speaker_04
Boston's off because of, I think because they played tonight. Nobody that played tonight is in there. What do you think the Lakers are?

01:31:00 Speaker_03
43 and a half. 46 and a half.

01:31:04 Speaker_04
That's the thing. There's still some value with some of this stuff.

01:31:06 Speaker_02
Get Bronny back.

01:31:07 Speaker_04
They're gonna run, yeah. Well, Bronny and a couple of G League games could probably help him. All right, Kurt Goldsberry, Dave Jacoby. It was the Grantland Reunion Podcast. Great to see you guys. Thanks for staying up with me tonight.

01:31:21 Speaker_04
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Goldsberry and Jacoby. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Kyle Creighton as well. Don't forget, you can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel.

01:31:33 Speaker_04
I will see you on Thursday.

01:32:00 Speaker_04
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01:32:21 Speaker_04
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