CNLP 696 | Bob Goff on Being More Available as a Leader, Whimsy, What He's Learned from Millions of People Who Have His Phone Number, and How to Infuse Adventure Into an Otherwise Ordinary Life AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast

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Episode: CNLP 696 | Bob Goff on Being More Available as a Leader, Whimsy, What He's Learned from Millions of People Who Have His Phone Number, and How to Infuse Adventure Into an Otherwise Ordinary Life

Author: Art of Leadership Network
Duration: 01:11:22

Episode Shownotes

Bob Goff returns to the podcast and shares what he's learned from millions of people who have had his phone number, how to be more available as a leader, and how to infuse whimsy and adventure into an otherwise ordinary life. 🔗 Show Notes 📩 On The Rise Newsletter 🗣️

Preaching Cheat Sheet 🧠 The Art of Leadership Academy 🎥 Watch on YouTube Follow @careynieuwhof Follow @theartofleadershipnetwork This episode is sponsored by: AT YOUR BEST In my best-selling book, At Your Best, you get a complete strategy to get your time, energy, and priorities working in your favor so you can break free from stress and burnout. 2025 is the year you can leave stress and burnout in the past. Head on over to Amazon or atyourbesttoday.com to order your copy of At Your Best. UPWARD SPORTS Now is the perfect time to explore sports ministry as part of your outreach strategy. This game-changing approach for 2025 will redefine how you engage with your community. Visit Upward.org/Carey to introduce sports outreach to your community in 2025. Brought to you by The Art of Leadership Network

Full Transcript

00:00:02 Speaker_02
I'm still teaching at San Quentin.

00:00:04 Speaker_02
They let me wear a Santa uniform in last Christmas and now I'm in the yard and one of these Manson family members who's been a part of my class for years, he sat down in my lap and he said, I've never sat on Santa's lap.

00:00:21 Speaker_02
And I told him, well, I've never had a serial killer sitting in my lap before. So this is a first for both of us. I said, what do you want? And you know, he thought for a second, he said, I just want a phone call on Christmas morning.

00:00:35 Speaker_02
And so we had the most delightful conversation on February or December 25th. It was just something really beautiful. And then he handed the phone to the next guy. And that guy handed the phone to the next guy. And that guy, there's 30 guys.

00:00:53 Speaker_00
Welcome to the Kerry Neuhof Leadership Podcast. It's Kerry here and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership.

00:01:00 Speaker_00
Well, we have, if you're in the mood for some good cheer, we have some good news because Bob Goff is back on the podcast. We are going to be talking about what he learned from the millions of people who have his phone number. Talk about accessibility.

00:01:12 Speaker_00
I mean, a lot of us try to create little fences where we have some peace and quiet. Bob does the opposite. What's the deal with that? how to be more available as a leader, and how to get more adventure in your life.

00:01:23 Speaker_00
Today's episode is brought to you by my bestselling book, At Your Best. You know, it's almost New Year's, and if you're looking to truly turn over a new leaf, I've helped over 100,000 leaders.

00:01:33 Speaker_00
You can go to atyourbesttoday.com to get your copy of At Your Best, and by Upward Sports. Now is the perfect time to explore sports ministry as part of your church's outreach strategy,

00:01:45 Speaker_00
you can go to Upward.org slash carry to introduce sports outreach to your community in 2025.

00:01:51 Speaker_00
Well, Bob Goff is a New York Times bestselling author of Love Does, Everybody Always, Dream Big, Undistracted, and well, a lot of others, including his new book, All About Whimsy.

00:02:03 Speaker_00
He's a lover of balloons, cake pops, and honestly, one of the most unique people I have ever met in my life. And, well, he says his greatest ambition in life is to love others, do stuff, and to hold hands with his wife.

00:02:17 Speaker_00
I mean, Bob, as you know, and I'm sure most of you have heard of Bob, is like no one else I've ever met. My goal on this podcast is to bring you behind the scenes, to get the story that other people don't get.

00:02:28 Speaker_00
If I ever renamed this podcast, I was telling Will Godera, we had coffee recently in Nashville when I was there. I was telling Will, if I ever renamed it, I would call it

00:02:38 Speaker_00
dinner with, like dinner with Will Guderian, dinner with Bob Goff, dinner with whoever my guest is. And I want to bring you behind the scenes on that. Hey, I want to really thank you for listening. If you are new here, welcome. I hope you subscribe.

00:02:51 Speaker_00
When you do that, it helps other people find out more about this podcast. And when you leave a rating and review, that pours fuel on that fire. Well, you know, it's almost that time of year again. And when January 1st rolls around,

00:03:04 Speaker_00
You're going to think everything's going to change, and there is no magic bullet to manage your stress, create a better work-life balance. You're going to do things like, I'm going to eat healthy. I'm going to do a cold plunge. I'll be more productive.

00:03:16 Speaker_00
I'll try to stop working seven days a week. But you know what happens? For most people, nothing changes. You gotta ask yourself the question, like, does it really work? And what I would ask you is, how has your track record been?

00:03:29 Speaker_00
For a lot of leaders, you are not alone if your resolutions haven't gone well. In fact, a recent study showed that 88% of all resolutions fail within the first two weeks. Forget two months. Two weeks, 88% are down in flames.

00:03:44 Speaker_00
So instead of trying to write something down and just kind of hoping it works out, what would it look like to adopt a whole new strategy, one that actually gets you results?

00:03:54 Speaker_00
I've been able to train over 100,000 leaders in this methodology, and you know what? It works. It works no matter what position you have. If you're a stay-at-home parent, it works. You can find it in my best-selling book. It's called At Your Best.

00:04:08 Speaker_00
You get a complete strategy to get your time, energy, and priorities working in your favor so you can break free from stress and burnout. If you read the book and apply what's in it, You can recapture your time.

00:04:20 Speaker_00
You can restructure your day and clarify what matters most. 2025 is actually the year you can leave stress and burnout in the past and finally focus on what matters to you.

00:04:31 Speaker_00
So head on over to Amazon or to atyourbesttoday.com to order your copy of At Your Best and enjoy. Question for you. Is your church looking to deepen connections with the community? I hope so.

00:04:44 Speaker_00
I think the church as a whole really needs to move in that direction. Well, what about using sports to do it?

00:04:50 Speaker_00
Upward Sports is the world's largest Christian youth sports organization, and they're ready to help your church share the message of Jesus through sports.

00:04:59 Speaker_00
If you partner with Upward Sports, it allows your church to create a tailored player experience.

00:05:04 Speaker_00
Choose the best sport for your community and tap into a wealth of resources, including ministry guides, player and parent devotions, a cloud-based management system, coaching materials, and other gospel tools.

00:05:17 Speaker_00
Now's the perfect time, so head on over to Upward.org to introduce sports outreach to your community and your church in 2025. That's Upward.org. And now, my conversation with Bob Goff. Bob, welcome back. It's so good to hang out again.

00:05:35 Speaker_02
I know. The only thing better is if you were sitting... I think we were sitting in a room together last time. So, I'll miss that, but let's take a rain check. But it feels like you're right there.

00:05:46 Speaker_00
I know. Technology has come a long way, and it was. I think I was on your show earlier this year, and we hung out in San Diego and had an amazing lunch and a great time together.

00:05:56 Speaker_02
That was great. Thanks for, gosh, what would be decades of friendship. I really appreciate it. It's fun to have friends that you can measure by the decade.

00:06:05 Speaker_00
It's gone a minute, which is good. You have a huge capacity for friendship.

00:06:11 Speaker_02
I think they have a huge need for friendship, right? So people that have a capacity, they just identify and value friends.

00:06:19 Speaker_02
I would say people that don't have a need for friendship, sometimes what I've observed is they're not giving that vibe off that they value friendships, like that it really matters to me that we're friends because I just love what you bring to my life and I love being on the adventure together.

00:06:40 Speaker_00
It's mutual. You know, I hadn't planned to go there, but since we're there anyway, I mean, I'm pouring over data thinking about some projects I'm working on. And you know this, Bob, the loneliness crisis is now an epidemic.

00:06:55 Speaker_00
And there's a lot of people who have, you know, hundreds, dozens, thousands of people who follow them on social or a friend of them on social, but in real life, It's pretty empty. What would you say, like, what is your take?

00:07:08 Speaker_00
Because you are such a good friend to so many people. What happens when you're in that situation where you might feel lonely as a leader? Or you might say, yeah, I really don't have too many close friends.

00:07:21 Speaker_02
Yeah, you know that feeling of being kind of together alone. In other words, you can be within a large space with a lot of people.

00:07:29 Speaker_02
Think of some of the arena events where we've had the opportunity to be saying something up front that we also you can feel utterly alone. And so the antidote for me is I usually throw five pounds of saltwater taffy in my backpack.

00:07:47 Speaker_02
I just go to the door and start handing out taffy. It's not just to be a nice guy. I just, I need to connect with somebody. I need to like know, because I don't want to be a showman. I don't want to, this isn't a show.

00:07:58 Speaker_02
I want to work together and I want to feel like I recognize somebody in the front row or that we're actually speaking to a person if there's something we have to offer.

00:08:08 Speaker_02
And sometimes I think the best thing we have to offer isn't information, it's example. Like that we can be an example of authentic friendship and desiring to be available. And you know that high value for me is just be weirdly available.

00:08:27 Speaker_02
I've gotten so many phone calls even today from people that just wanted to know if the phone number really worked. And so that isn't for everyone, and that would be really disruptive for other people.

00:08:41 Speaker_02
But for me, I just think it's almost like the thing that reminds me of our humanity and that we're

00:08:49 Speaker_02
in this together and that we're all a family we're all dealing with our insecurities and so um so what i've done to deal with that and answer your question is i've started to tap the brakes pretty hard on larger events uh and to pivot more towards can we get together around a fire pit you know i've tried to cultivate things in my life that lend themselves more towards

00:09:14 Speaker_02
smaller gatherings and conversations. And not that the other ones aren't important, they're just important in a different way.

00:09:23 Speaker_00
You're also somebody who really takes the initiative. We talked about this before, but you'll just send me a random text, random note, random DM. And I think that maybe is how we connected.

00:09:33 Speaker_00
You read something I wrote years ago and just reached out gratuitously and I knew who you were. And I was like, oh my gosh, like Bob Goff reached out to me. Taking the initiative is a really big part of it. And you do that so well.

00:09:47 Speaker_00
When you take the initiative in a relationship, when you hand taffy to somebody, people look at that and they go, oh, well, only Bob could do that. That is such a Bob Goff thing, which it is. But I've also found that

00:10:00 Speaker_00
You know, for example, making friends. There are certain social contexts where I'm naturally shy, and then others where I'm not. I don't know whether this is like a Canadian boating thing, but we're both boaters, right? We are.

00:10:13 Speaker_00
So, I find it so easy to talk to people at marinas. If you're, like, gassing up your boat, or you're docking, or you're at a boat launch, or something like that, it's just very natural to talk to strangers. And everybody seems to value it.

00:10:29 Speaker_00
And I'm wondering if we had more of that in our everyday life, where you just start talking to someone at a supermarket. Not in a weird way, but just like a nice conversational way. You often take the initiative. Any tips on that?

00:10:42 Speaker_02
Yeah, maybe for our friends who are listening or trying to figure out these things. The small switch that I made that's been really helpful instead of saying, you know, hi, how are you? And then they say, fine. And then they say, how are you?

00:10:55 Speaker_02
And I say, fine. That's just how we roll in North America. Um, instead to just say, Hey, what does it feel like to be you right now?

00:11:02 Speaker_02
Uh, and then while you're thinking about that, let me tell you what it feels like to be me, which is usually about 80% insecurity and 100% anticipation. So that usually 100% of the time. I'm 80% insecure. Even now, there's a component of insecurity.

00:11:23 Speaker_02
But what I do is I've masked it. I'm not being inauthentic, but I've learned how to cope with that insecurity by living in anticipation, living with hope, being in the moment, being available.

00:11:35 Speaker_02
That seems like a louder voice in the room than all of the insecurity speaking to me over my shoulder, and it kind of mutes it. I have a thing that maybe you've heard of, I don't know if you share this, but my ears are always ringing.

00:11:49 Speaker_02
Um, so it's got tinnitus, I think, what it's called, but anyway, my, it has been that way for a long time since I started blasting roads up at our lodge. I think I didn't have the right ear protection. So, um, they're always ringing except right now.

00:12:07 Speaker_02
Like it's not ringing right now. Cause I'm just talking to you. Is that interesting?

00:12:11 Speaker_00
So when you talk one-on-one to a person, it stops?

00:12:14 Speaker_02
There's no ringing. It's gone. But then if I'm just alone, then I hear it. And it's not irritating to me. It's a nuisance because you want to be like Rocky, like, answer the phone. But I find that that goes away.

00:12:29 Speaker_02
And the antidote to some insecurity, the antidote to maybe if you're a leader listening and you're always hearing this ringing of insecurity in your ears, is to do what Paul talked about Timothy doing, show a genuine interest in other people.

00:12:45 Speaker_02
Philippians 2.20, it's just like, show an interest, get immersed in that, and you won't hear all the other loud noises in your life. That's been helpful. It doesn't fix it all the time, but it helps me get context constantly.

00:12:57 Speaker_02
And I think that has been it. Just asking what people feel. What's it feel like to be you? And start by setting some of the guardrails to say, oh, we're actually going to have a real live conversation. We're going to talk about things that matter.

00:13:13 Speaker_00
You talked about flipping a switch when it came to insecurity. I think every leader can identify with the fact that there's a level of insecurity inside of us. I certainly can. But you talked about a switch that flipped.

00:13:30 Speaker_00
Were there critical moments in your life where you decided that, no, you were just going to move forward and ignore that insecurity and start being more outgoing?

00:13:41 Speaker_02
Or maybe it's just be who you really are. I know in our culture, we put a high value on, you know, arm waving and confetti and unicorns and that's, these are my people. This is where I kind of live. And yet that's not feigned.

00:13:58 Speaker_02
I just think I'm a pretty upbeat guy. You can put me in a dark room with a, you know, cardboard box and I think it's something fun to do with it.

00:14:06 Speaker_02
So, um, what I think I'm trying to do is find, uh, deeper levels of meaning in what was happening around me. That isn't just the, uh, what is apparent and on the surface, but is there something more here?

00:14:21 Speaker_02
Is there some, I want to live a really intentional life, but a really upbeat, optimistic, intentional life. Does that make sense that, uh, there's some, I mean, we're both lawyers. I've tried death penalty cases.

00:14:34 Speaker_02
against witch doctors who sacrifice children. I can't think of anything more heavy and like kind of intense than that. And yet, I don't walk around with a long face.

00:14:47 Speaker_02
I just think, what is it that we can do to show up fully ourselves, but full of the possibility what might be?

00:14:57 Speaker_02
You and I have talked about this like years ago, we talked about when people come into your life that are just a little bit or a lot a bit off-putting. Sometimes I try to think, imagine a cloud bubble over their head.

00:15:17 Speaker_02
When they do something that is either hurtful or just feels like it's not reading the room, I imagine the words, I'm being really helpful right now. I'm thinking all of it is to the contrary.

00:15:30 Speaker_02
I just go that they, their motives are that they're being really helpful right now, even though what they're doing is just full laying me and the people that are closest to me just know that I am dying a thousand deaths that it really, I'm trying to be chipper and upbeat, but they know I just really got like a belly slugged on that.

00:15:55 Speaker_02
Um, And so to think of the most generous explanation for what's going on, that they're trying to be really helpful, the most realistic explanation that Uh, I probably missed something.

00:16:09 Speaker_02
Uh, I did something that activated them, uh, in a way and they perceived whatever it was that they perceived good or bad. But, uh, the most realistic is I probably got some stuff to learn there.

00:16:21 Speaker_02
Uh, and then the most optimistic explanation and to say, maybe I'll do a better job next time. And that helps me, um, uh, deal with, uh, kind of things that come my way and the misunderstandings or the hard parts. What's the most generous explanation?

00:16:38 Speaker_02
They probably thought they were being helpful, even though it didn't feel that way. The most reasonable is I got some stuff to learn there. What can I actually do?

00:16:48 Speaker_02
And if you take agreeing off the table, then all that's left is to either do something or not do something. Even in your faith, if you take agreeing with Jesus off the table, then all that's left is either doing it or not doing it.

00:17:04 Speaker_02
And that's been really helpful for me. And then everything isn't for me. I don't have to think of every big cause or social issue or whatever. That doesn't need to be my biggest thing.

00:17:16 Speaker_02
My big thing is kids and education and all that, but that's no better nor worse than anything else. But this is what I've decided to throw my weight into.

00:17:28 Speaker_02
And sometimes there's a subtle pressure, and I'm speaking to leaders out there, that you need to champion everybody's issue. Whatever is their big number one needs to be your big number one.

00:17:39 Speaker_02
And to quietly, you don't need to make it Gettysburg, but to just say that I so respect that that is the biggest

00:17:48 Speaker_02
issue that you've got right now, and I'm just so glad that there's clarion voices like yours to speak to that, but I don't need to make that my biggest issue.

00:17:58 Speaker_00
You know, has it been almost 10 years? When did Love Does release?

00:18:02 Speaker_02
Yeah, we just checked a little while ago, it was almost 13. 13 years ago?

00:18:06 Speaker_00
You're kidding me.

00:18:07 Speaker_02
Yeah, people come back, they'll say, they go like, oh, I remember when you were really cool. Like Elvis has left the building. Who's the old guy? Yeah, yeah. So they said, I was in high school and I read that. And I'm talking to this elderly person.

00:18:26 Speaker_00
We'll come back to that later. But, you know, 13 years, I thought it was a decade. 13 years, wow. So for 13 years, millions of people have had your phone number and you haven't changed it.

00:18:37 Speaker_00
I'd love to know, 13 years later, what are you learning about human beings and those tens of thousands, I'm sure now, of phone calls that you've received over a decade plus?

00:18:49 Speaker_02
Yeah. Yeah. It really has been a delight. I've had some really tender moments.

00:18:55 Speaker_02
Uh, we, you know, someone who is in hospice and they've been reading the book to them just as they have a lot of time on their hands, uh, to, and they want to talk about meaningful things.

00:19:06 Speaker_02
And so you get invited into the room with somebody in some of their last moments, uh, and, uh, first looks at weddings, somebody that started their courtship and they were, it happened to have been read in the,

00:19:19 Speaker_02
reading this book along with I'm sure others, but they said, we're going to do our first look. And because this is where we started, we want you to be there with us and say a quick prayer before we do that walk down the aisle thing.

00:19:31 Speaker_02
So, those tender moments. And then there's these crazy, there was a woman that called not too long ago. And I said, hello, it's Bob here. And she said, the devil's in my bathroom.

00:19:44 Speaker_02
I'm like, hey, I raised two boys in junior high, I know exactly how you feel. And then I said, who's your best friend? And she said, Mary. I said, well, give Mary a call and you don't want to face this alone.

00:19:58 Speaker_02
So have Mary come over and spend some time with you. And I thought it was done. I got a phone call two hours later and she called, she said, devil's gone. And I didn't need to hear the explanation. Like I was just so pleased that,

00:20:11 Speaker_02
he was no longer inhabiting the bathroom. So I love, and among the things I've learned, is that I don't need to know the whole story, that we just get a peek. It's like the same thing with eternity. We're looking through a knothole at eternity.

00:20:27 Speaker_02
We're looking through a knothole at our faith and complex relationships we have. And I don't need to understand all of it. I just want to be present for this moment of it and be so delighted with my little piece of that. Yeah. So it's been really good.

00:20:43 Speaker_02
I've really enjoyed doing that. And I'd recommend that for people. Put your cell phone number, have a return address on some of these things. So people, if they do either have a question or something, most people just want to know it's for real.

00:20:57 Speaker_02
They just want to know that it isn't like, here's how to order a case of books. That is actually, if you just say hello, you just answered every question they have. And what if we brought that into the other relationships?

00:21:08 Speaker_02
Somebody writes a country Western lyric about a big old truck and a big old dog or something, and it takes off and then they're not available anymore.

00:21:16 Speaker_02
They have people who have people who have some people even in faith communities do that, that they, and it's not a bad thing. It's not an indictment. There's, there's no bad guy in this, uh, all good guys.

00:21:27 Speaker_02
But, but that idea that there's a separation and I would rather if a people are not your thing, then I don't know, get a job at a, My first job as a parking lot attendant, the graveyard shift, and it was before computers.

00:21:42 Speaker_02
So we just wrote down the license plate numbers. I would just say, if you don't like people, then maybe don't get around a lot of people. You're going to hate heaven. Everybody always, right? So I think if you can match up, what would be growing edge?

00:21:59 Speaker_02
What would be beyond myself? What would be, what would availability look like? And then do your version of it. Sweet Maria's version of availability is me, the people we made, the people they married, and the people they made.

00:22:13 Speaker_02
She has a handful of close friends, but she just feels very comfortable in her shoes. And I feel like I want to let the person who I would self-describe as church adjacent, Uh, they're not in the church. They're not mad.

00:22:29 Speaker_02
They're not, uh, people saying snarky, high minded things about the religious industrial conflict, you know, whatever that is, doesn't appeal to I'm showing my bias. Uh, but they're just the guy at the tire store. I want him to feel welcomed.

00:22:44 Speaker_02
I want him to feel accepted. Uh, even if he has a different worldview and his lifestyle doesn't look like the one that would be the lifestyle I'm trying to aim for, but just let them feel acceptance first. Because I'm not a bouncer, I'm an usher.

00:23:02 Speaker_00
That's a beautiful vision for life. And yet, I think one of the very real things, I'd love to go a little deeper on that. is a lot of leaders go, man, I'd love to be Bob. I'd love to have my cell phone to the world.

00:23:14 Speaker_00
But I lead a church of, you know, 200 or 2,000 or 20,000 or something. And they're like, I'm already overwhelmed.

00:23:21 Speaker_00
And, you know, like right now, you're not interrupting me every two minutes to take a phone call because I'm sure your phone has probably gone off.

00:23:28 Speaker_01
I put it on silent.

00:23:29 Speaker_00
Exactly. So on a practical level, because Brad Lominick would agree with you. He thinks leaders should be more accessible than inaccessible. And, you know, I know we both love Brad. So one of the things would be practically how do you do it?

00:23:45 Speaker_00
Because I think we all are afraid of the one-hour conversation.

00:23:48 Speaker_00
So I call you, and I've got my whole life story, Bob, and I'm just starting to—you don't know me from Adam, and I know you have a son, Adam, but you don't know me from anybody, and I want to tell you my whole life story because you're the only person who will pick up.

00:24:02 Speaker_00
How do you make sure—I mean, I'm sure once in a while that's been an hour, but if you don't have an hour, how do you deal with that?

00:24:08 Speaker_02
Yeah, you can give some people some auditory cues. You could say, hey, I don't have as much time as I wish I had to, whatever. But just tell me in a couple sentences what it is that you're thinking about. You can do a real benefit.

00:24:23 Speaker_02
You didn't come across as snarky or short or That's right. It's just like saying, Hey, I only have a couple of minutes. Like, tell me the last three sentences we were going to talk about.

00:24:32 Speaker_02
Like when you got through, and then some people will miss the cue and they'll say, well, when I was an embryo. Oh, this is going to take a minute.

00:24:43 Speaker_02
Um, but that idea, if they miss it, uh, that you could say, Hey, listen, I'm so sorry, uh, that I'm going to need to bounce. Um, but I, I'm really glad you called. Tell me the last sentence or two.

00:24:55 Speaker_02
Um, and that is really helpful, uh, to them and helping them say, yeah, you could do like just a small, medium and large.

00:25:03 Speaker_02
And then other people, you can tell they're in a crisis and you can say, if this is beyond my capabilities and that bar is pretty low. Um, if, if it's beyond me to just say, Hey, can we patch in nine one one right now? Could we get a friend?

00:25:19 Speaker_02
So you wouldn't be in trouble, but could we have a friend join you in that? That's just, you have somebody that's really important in your life. Who are the safe people right now?

00:25:27 Speaker_02
If I get a call in the middle of the night, I'll just say, Hey, will you look around you right now? Tell me what you see. Are you seeing safe people where you are right now? Are you seeing not safe people? Like, let's just talk about that.

00:25:38 Speaker_02
So we know context. And if you and I, if somebody is kind enough to reach out to us, can ask for context, then we know the context of this conversation.

00:25:48 Speaker_02
Because if you have somebody who is just at the end of their rope, that would be good to know that context before you say something that wouldn't be fitting for the context of that conversation.

00:26:01 Speaker_02
And to know when you're outside your depth, to say, hey, listen, there are so many great resources. Let me tell you what I did when I was asking some of the same

00:26:09 Speaker_02
important questions and difficult ones that I went to this group in Tennessee or went to this one over here. And they just gave me a lot of guidance. I felt like I had a bag and they just filled it full of tools.

00:26:21 Speaker_02
What do you think about, can I bridge you guys together? There are five or six different outfits that are great.

00:26:27 Speaker_02
So to just switch to a bit of a resource that you're available, they matter, and then quickly get them to people that are much smarter than you. which is there's about 8 billion of those at last count.

00:26:59 Speaker_00
46% of pastors feel that way. Look, I get it, okay? We've all been there, but if you feel this way more often than not, I would love to help.

00:27:08 Speaker_00
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00:27:20 Speaker_00
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00:27:33 Speaker_00
It's something I still use to this day, even after decades of preaching. I love filling out each of the steps as I write my sermon, and then I sit down to review the message the night before, and I can go in with

00:27:44 Speaker_00
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00:27:57 Speaker_00
That's PreachingCheatSheet.com to download your copy for free. And now, back to the conversation. So if you don't mind drilling down, because I think this is a great exercise.

00:28:08 Speaker_00
So let's assume there's 36 missed calls during this conversation that you and I are having. You look at your phone an hour from now. Do you feel any compunction to return those calls or the voicemails or how do you manage that?

00:28:22 Speaker_02
Zero. So I let the voicemails max out about, I want to say 11 years ago. So I haven't received a voicemail in 11 years because I can't receive voicemails and also don't respond to text messages.

00:28:36 Speaker_02
So I turned that function off because I've got these big sausage fingers. And it would come across, somebody would say something really important, and I'll bang out like four words, and it'll come across as short or curt.

00:28:50 Speaker_02
And I'd rather, so I just said like, just give me a call. And then they can feel the spirit of that. So you get to pitch your modality, like pitch. A text message is not how I want to connect with people. Oh, and here's another piccadillo.

00:29:05 Speaker_02
I don't talk to people on speakerphones. I won't have the launch codes. I've got nothing important. You know, recording it isn't the issue. It just feels very off-putting as lawyers.

00:29:16 Speaker_02
When we were talking to opposing lawyers and they put you on the speakerphone, it just feels like there's a power something going on. And I find myself because I've got the phone up to my ear because I never would put somebody on a speakerphone.

00:29:29 Speaker_02
I might be in a generational thing. But that would be like kind of a desk to put people on a speakerphone. So I just tell them, hey, I've got the phone up to my ear.

00:29:39 Speaker_02
And when you have a chance to do that, when it's convenient for you, just give me a call. Um, so, but I'm not going to negotiate. Are we doing it? And I also want to know who I'm talking to.

00:29:49 Speaker_02
I, are we talking to you, which is my assumption, but it's happened so many times, like dozens and dozens and dozens, not one or two, that somebody will post something on YouTube. which is the conversation I thought I was having with Billy.

00:30:03 Speaker_02
And again, we're not talking about important stuff, but it feels a bit of a home invasion. It feels like a invasion of that conversation. Something that was private became public.

00:30:15 Speaker_02
Yeah, and we're not talking any big secrets, but just the most generous explanation is that they're really excited about it. They thought this was really fun. And they wanted friends to know, like, wow, we called the number and the old guy answered.

00:30:30 Speaker_02
And then the most realistic explanation is they probably don't realize the magnitude of that in the And they didn't grow up in a generation where that wasn't considered like the thing that you would do.

00:30:45 Speaker_02
You would honor friendships by just having those conversations. And then the most optimistic is that we had a really great conversation. I hope they'll call again.

00:30:54 Speaker_00
And so do you make a nice request or someone on your team makes a nice request to take it down off YouTube? I don't know. Sometimes.

00:31:00 Speaker_02
I'm not going to be the sheriff.

00:31:03 Speaker_00
No, this is good because it's a framework then where you're not scheduling this stuff so that your Friday is 75 phone calls. You're not following up on it. If you catch it in the moment, you catch it. And if you don't, you don't.

00:31:16 Speaker_02
Yeah. Yeah. And it says part of that deal is to have a people equally committed to conversations. Have you ever gone to a party when somebody is looking beyond you to the next person?

00:31:28 Speaker_01
Yes.

00:31:28 Speaker_02
And so to come up with strategies. uh, to help for me, I'm not trying to control other people. I hope to be influencing them in positive ways, uh, as I'm influenced in positive ways by guys like you.

00:31:41 Speaker_02
Um, but, uh, so I have a friend, Stephanie, and she will send to me the night before what tomorrow is. She'll just send me here's tomorrow. And she doesn't say what you're doing the next day and the next day and the next day, just tomorrow.

00:31:57 Speaker_00
You've had that practice for a long time. What is the advantage of that to you?

00:32:01 Speaker_02
I think that concept that we've laughed together about being where your feet are, to just be fully present in that conversation, not three conversations from now, and not hop off the line with one person because you're thinking about the next thing, but to just be fully... I have no ringing in my ears right now.

00:32:20 Speaker_02
I'm just talking to you, Kerry. And that is just so delightful to experience that. I want us to experience more and more of that.

00:32:28 Speaker_00
Tomorrow, you could be on a plane to Uganda. I know you just got back. Or you could be on a flight to New York, or you could be sitting in the backyard with Sweet Maria. You don't know.

00:32:36 Speaker_02
Yeah, it's really true. And you would think it's kind of nutty, Professor, but sometimes I'll go to the airport, and with my credit card, you know how all the airlines have their kiosks?

00:32:45 Speaker_02
I'll put my credit card in the various kiosks to see which plane I'm flying on. I know there's a flight at seven, but I don't know.

00:32:54 Speaker_01
Southwest, American. That's amazing.

00:32:56 Speaker_02
Yeah. But that kind of like, it isn't an absent-mindedness. It's a strategy of presence. I just want to be so fully here and so fully in the conversations I'm in that I'm not thinking about the next one, the one behind me or the one in front of me.

00:33:15 Speaker_02
What I need to do is guard my heart. And I think that would be for leadership, that idea, guard your heart, Proverbs 4, 23, 4b, from it, your entire life is going to flow.

00:33:26 Speaker_02
So some folks that are, will, are just verbal processors are going to take a little longer to get there. I'll just say, Hey, drop me an email. Like here's my cryptic email, Bob Goff at Bob Goff. See what I did there?

00:33:44 Speaker_02
But as a result of that, I probably get 300 emails a day. And I remember that when Keith Green was back in the day, one of the first Christian musicians, he wrote me a letter, because there's no computers, by hand, and he wrote me three sentences.

00:34:00 Speaker_02
And I felt like such a boss, because Keith freaking Green wrote me a three-sentence letter. And so everybody gets three sentences back. I don't send, I don't staff stuff out and all that. I just love it.

00:34:15 Speaker_02
Just, and I felt so valued by him and he said it wasn't some form kind of thing. Uh, but just that's one thing that we could offer or let me state a different that I could offer. And that's not for everybody.

00:34:30 Speaker_02
Uh, but for me, I found that so the right mix of availability and selfishly, I've just so delighted. There's one more person, uh, that I've, we've connected and just said hello.

00:34:41 Speaker_02
And it's not this messed up version of friendship called networking, it's just being friends. And I think that's what generationally, intergenerationally, we can offer that to one another.

00:34:54 Speaker_00
When we were together in San Diego, you and I had lunch, and I remember you talked about becoming the elders in the village, and you've referenced that once or twice already in our conversation. What does that mean to you?

00:35:05 Speaker_00
What happens when a leader moves into his or her late 50s, early 60s? What happens when you become an elder in the village?

00:35:13 Speaker_02
Yeah, that's so interesting. I wouldn't know because I'm in my mid-60s. heading towards my later 60s. So my name in Uganda, they had some name for me earlier, and now they call me Babu. And Babu means grandfather.

00:35:30 Speaker_02
So there was a time where people said, you're like a father figure, and that was very generous of them. But now people say, you're like a grandfather, because I look like the Crypt Keepers. I look like this in the fourth grade.

00:35:44 Speaker_02
Being the village elder means this. Sometimes we think that that means giving people pontificating and giving all these thoughts. I think it means to be quiet and get out of the way. So people say, are you empowering these students, men and women?

00:36:04 Speaker_02
I'm like, I already think they're powerful. I don't think they need to get empowered. I'm trying to make opportunities available to them and get out of the way. They don't need to go through me, and I don't want them to meet my opinion.

00:36:16 Speaker_02
I want them to meet Jesus. And so what I'm going to do is just get out of the way, and if there's something I've got that can be helpful, I'm in. And the best thing I've got, and this is what I've explained to my kids, their inheritance is my friends.

00:36:31 Speaker_02
They inherit you. I don't have to staple you to the back of the wheel. Carrie, you know my son's names. You know my daughter. That is my inheritance. That's their inheritance from me. And wouldn't it be neat to cultivate just a rich group?

00:36:52 Speaker_02
Let these guys inherit so many neat friendships. And then don't wait for the wake. Right. To introduce it. Cause I'll be in a jar or a snow globe. I haven't decided.

00:37:03 Speaker_01
It's a Bob snow globe. Just shake that up. It's a little nasty, but like there he is.

00:37:09 Speaker_02
Um, don't wait for the wake to meet, like meet now. Like why not set a, our friend, Mike Foster will sit down with one of my kids and just pour into them and be like, that is your inheritance.

00:37:21 Speaker_02
So if we started seeing that and not just for our family, but

00:37:26 Speaker_02
you know, dear friends, Stephanie and others in our life that as we introduce them to others and just celebrate seeing their relationships like explode in the most beautiful ways, I feel like that's how I want to spend the rest of my days.

00:37:42 Speaker_00
So if somebody met you now or met you through your writings, and I know you've written about this and it's no secret, but they're like, guess what Bob did for much of his life? Like what profession was he? I doubt very many people would pick attorney.

00:37:55 Speaker_00
All right. That's just my guess. That's just my guess.

00:37:57 Speaker_01
The happy guy. People would meet me and they'd say like, settle the case.

00:38:04 Speaker_00
I would love to know, because I hear from bivocational leaders on a regular basis, like this, you know, your new book is on whimsy, and that's been an adjective that you've used to describe yourself and what you would encourage in others for a long time.

00:38:19 Speaker_00
Whimsy and law don't go well together, so I would love to go back a little bit, rewind the clock,

00:38:25 Speaker_00
What made young Bob, we know how you became a lawyer, you've written about that, talked about that publicly, you just sat at waiting for them to say go get your books and you got your books and you were in law school.

00:38:35 Speaker_00
But what motivated you to want to become an attorney?

00:38:39 Speaker_02
I kind of wanted to know something that not everybody knows. I was thinking I was going to be a young life leader or something, which is really beautiful and noble.

00:38:53 Speaker_02
But I saw a lot of youth pastor types, even though I didn't grow up in the church, or I wouldn't even identify myself as church adjacent at the time. It's like, yeah, what church? But there seemed to be very fungible.

00:39:09 Speaker_02
They were the person then, and then they were gone, and a day later, they had the new person. I wanted to know something that not everybody knew.

00:39:17 Speaker_02
And so going to law school and then being a construction lawyer, I just found it fascinating because it wasn't as contentious as maybe some areas of law. It was just kind of roll the dice, move your mice, nobody gets hurt.

00:39:31 Speaker_02
It was just dirt and two by fours, that's what we were talking about. It wasn't like emotionally fraught. But there was an intensity about me that was more like probably more focused, more like

00:39:47 Speaker_02
You're still a joyful guy, but more focused because the stakes were pretty high and losing wasn't an option. couldn't afford to lose a case you've worked on for five years for free.

00:40:04 Speaker_02
Like that would be, oh, and then you would pay the money you had put into that case would be way seven figures. So it was just like, if you're taking a case, there's a focus to that.

00:40:16 Speaker_02
And I was living in San Diego and commuting to Seattle on the last seat on Alaska Airlines every day.

00:40:23 Speaker_02
And so you would have met Bob who was working hard and then that Bob started making people and then they were started out the size of trout, but then they just got bigger and then they wanted to talk and interact.

00:40:40 Speaker_02
And so then the next version of Bob was the one that told his partners, I'm taking three months a year off. And I'm just going to hang out with my kids that know how to talk now and want to hang out.

00:40:51 Speaker_02
And that didn't go over that great with the partners the first year. It really didn't go over great the second year. And so I quit the third year. And so I just wasn't a partner anymore. But there was 25 other partners.

00:41:05 Speaker_02
So when you push back from the table, you leave all your chips. So they were like, let me help you back. And that's when I started a practice alone first and then added a couple other friends with it.

00:41:19 Speaker_02
And that was really important to me in understanding who I was. I realized, it wasn't that I don't play well with others. But I'm not trying to reach consensus about everything. I want to build a kingdom.

00:41:32 Speaker_02
And it's not a kingdom about Bob, but just this, uh, something a lot more lasting, a lot more beautiful than that. And so I realized that, uh, consensus building is exhausting for me. I don't know. How do you relate to do you, uh, building consensus?

00:41:47 Speaker_02
Is that a high value for you or.

00:41:50 Speaker_00
Oh, it's hard to build consensus. I think consensus can often dilute. It can end up being a negotiation. So back to your 25 partners, it would be like, well, you can't have three months off. You can have three weeks. How's that, Bob?

00:42:04 Speaker_00
You know, that's good. That's a nice compromise there. That's what consensus produces. As they would say, a camel was a horse designed by consensus at a committee. It does one thing okay, but not what it was supposed to do.

00:42:20 Speaker_00
I would struggle with that as well. If you're really living for an alternative vision, then consensus is not going to get you there.

00:42:31 Speaker_02
And I think there's something beautiful about jumping the tracks and you did that. You were not doing a traditional role in a traditional way. And so I would encourage people that are listening to say, is there a way to riff?

00:42:44 Speaker_02
I mean, you've got this, the general, theme of what you're doing with your life, but is there a way to jump the tracks? Is there an adjacent idea that you could work on that would cause you to not do the things that aren't helpful to you?

00:42:58 Speaker_02
Consensus building for me wasn't helpful. And it's not because I think I'm the smartest guy in the room. Even if I'm the only guy in the room, I wouldn't feel like the smartest guy in the room. But to say, but I'm the guy that's not in charge.

00:43:13 Speaker_02
I'm the guy that's responsible. So I put a really high value. There's a lot of people in running a nonprofit that's doing quite a bit of stuff. I'm not looking for who wants to be in charge. I want to know who wants to be responsible.

00:43:27 Speaker_02
And so that idea, if I'm going to be responsible, then I'm going to craft this thing in the fashion that I want to craft it.

00:43:34 Speaker_00
So the Bob we know now, was that a kernel back in the early days of law that has sprouted and grown into what we now know? Or were you jumping tracks and doing things differently even 20, 30 years ago when you spent most of your time in law?

00:43:53 Speaker_00
And I'm asking that on behalf of bivocational people who would say, I have a day job, but I really come to life at night, you know, or on the weekends with my family.

00:44:03 Speaker_00
What would you say to leaders who are in that place where they maybe feel straitjacketed by a career or a choice or something they've done, or even pastors? Actually, I know a lot of pastors who feel restricted in their freedom.

00:44:14 Speaker_00
I want to know how much whimsy there was in the bob of law.

00:44:18 Speaker_02
Yeah, so there's a couple pieces. There's the first, there's the economic engine to just like to make rent and we call it peanut butter money around our house.

00:44:27 Speaker_02
I was told the kids, I, when I was quitting this partnership, I said, we'll always have enough money for peanut butter. Uh, and so, uh, so peanut butter money is the economic engine. So you have a day job and you start referring to it as a day job.

00:44:41 Speaker_02
It's just a day job. Um, uh, my first day job was with manpower. Uh, it was like a temp agency and I was going to Harvard of the West. It was San Diego state, me and 60,000 surfers. Uh, and, uh, so I needed money for rent.

00:44:56 Speaker_02
So I signed up for, uh, to work at this place. And they said, just bring your boots and some blue jeans. And I showed up. When I got there, they clipped something on my shirt and they checked it. I don't know if it was a name badge or what.

00:45:08 Speaker_02
But then I went in with a jackhammer to jackhammer out this thing. And every 45 minutes, they'd come in and check the little thing they clipped to my shirt. Get this, Kerry. This is a nuclear hot room. And I'm surprised I can even have kids.

00:45:23 Speaker_02
They were seeing how many rads of radiation I was feeding all of this for $5.50 an hour. Wow. I mean, back in the day. So, my point is this. Some of the bad jobs that we're in prepare us for the better jobs. I want us to keep that viability piece.

00:45:42 Speaker_02
That's a high value for me. I don't want to be asking people for money or to fund. It's not a bad thing and it's a noble thing if that's your jam. But for me, that was something that didn't feel like it resonated with me.

00:45:55 Speaker_02
So I had a day job and it was being a lawyer. And then I spun up the next thing and the next thing and the next thing while I was doing it. We started a little airline in Canada with one float plane and then we got two and three.

00:46:11 Speaker_02
And it was mostly just because it's very whimsical. I mean, who has a float plane? And we never made any money on it, but I got to co-chair with Alaska and American Airlines.

00:46:20 Speaker_02
So for a guy that's flying to Seattle and back every day, I paid $8 in taxes and ate my body weight in peanuts. So to find that whimsical, I bet we could tinker with this and this and this.

00:46:36 Speaker_02
So I would say to that leader, keep your day job if that's helping you, but don't be restricted by your capabilities. Because a lot of people are doing what they're capable of.

00:46:46 Speaker_02
And there's that little quarter of a twist where you say, what that sense of calling and not in a mystical way, because I don't hear voices. I hear lots of ringing, but I don't hear voices.

00:46:58 Speaker_02
And so to like that idea of like, what is it that gets you out of bed? What's not just going to work, but what's going to last?

00:47:06 Speaker_02
So the some of the things I find myself doing today feel like they have a longer shelf life than the things I was doing before.

00:47:16 Speaker_00
That's fantastic. I guess the question that I want to ask next is when you look back on that, are you surprised at who you've become or was this the plan all along?

00:47:29 Speaker_00
Are you like, hey, one day I'm going to step aside, one day I'm going to do all these kinds of cool projects and this is who I want to be and it felt like a graduation. Oh, to be that smart.

00:47:40 Speaker_02
It's like I could, I could reconstruct history and backfill and say, Oh yeah, that was the plan the whole time. But a lot of times it's just rock, paper, scissors, you know, it's just like, you're doing the best you can with the information.

00:47:52 Speaker_02
So I want to say to leaders that are listening, sometimes you see somebody. that had a couple things work or whatever. And you think that you assume like, wow, they really must have had that thing figured out.

00:48:05 Speaker_02
But really what you did is you just, you do the best you can and some things just implode. Just because it's a particular season in the arc of how our democracy works, I want to like address all these things that pop to mind.

00:48:21 Speaker_02
But I've had some really big failures along the way. People that like, I tried this and I just like, just, I didn't have eyebrows. It blew up so big. I just, not in the way that popular things blow up. I was literally ignited. I'm like, what in the world?

00:48:40 Speaker_02
But I want to fail trying, I don't want to fail watching. And I don't want to be scared off because there's some folks sniping that want to just, for whatever reason, they want to take aim at folks.

00:48:55 Speaker_02
And I just assume what's the most generous explanation, I think they're being really helpful. And maybe indeed they are. I certainly have some things to learn. This is a great reminder of opportunity to step it up a notch.

00:49:10 Speaker_02
And then most optimistically, what can I do differently? I think people that have started to curate their life rather than just live it, that they're actually the person at the Getty Museum is curating a room. They know what they want on exhibit.

00:49:25 Speaker_02
They know what goes with what. And so as you're curating your life as a leader, don't be getting off the scent because a couple of things didn't go right. Don't exaggerate the victories.

00:49:37 Speaker_02
Don't say when something went right, don't make it bigger than it was because we don't need somebody that's red, bold, over-caffeinated. Don't try to live a bigger life than you have because that would show well on camera. Just try to be who you are.

00:49:55 Speaker_02
Stay humble. Know that for everything that might go right, there's like four people that were really behind the scenes making that happen.

00:50:05 Speaker_02
You know, I just feel like sometimes if I raise my hand, it's because there's three people behind me that are lifting it on a rope. If something goes right at Love Does, it's because Jody Luke and this team of courageous volunteers made it happen.

00:50:21 Speaker_02
And people would say like, wow, Love Does is really doing things. I'm not confused for a second about who's making that happen.

00:50:28 Speaker_02
And so part of that is having the clarity and then acknowledging as often as you're able who is really making it happen, not in a feigned sense of humility, but to actually lift them up, give an accurate perception.

00:50:43 Speaker_02
Because if we keep having the people in front that are taking all the bows, then we are distorting what's really happening.

00:50:50 Speaker_02
We need to say, if somebody says, wow, the work you're doing, you mean the courageous Ugandan teachers that are doing, and not making a big deal about it, but just continue.

00:51:00 Speaker_02
If you're going to be a village elder, continue to reframe more accurately what's going on. Give it, instead of just AM radio, let's go Dolby surround sound and not go for the short little elevator.

00:51:15 Speaker_02
Part of that, if time permits, to say, wow, if you met these teachers in Mogadishu, Somalia, you would be floored at their courage.

00:51:25 Speaker_00
One of the things I believe, Bob, and I think you believe it too, is people admire your strengths, but they resonate with your weaknesses. They admire your successes, but they empathize with your failures.

00:51:39 Speaker_00
You mentioned you had a couple of, well, a few things blow up in your face. What was a time of failure or struggle in your life that could be past life or it could be recent? um, that, that didn't go the way you hoped and how did you get through it?

00:51:55 Speaker_02
Yeah, you know, you don't have to talk about particular relationships, but I think I, I pause on that only because that's a thing that everyone listening can share, but you'll have a relationship and you have like things that are really beautiful hopes and great memories around it and all that.

00:52:12 Speaker_02
And then the wheels wobble because life is complicated and we are all fallible and all that. And so then something goes awry and then you just grieve that. So that feels like the deeply personal kinds of things.

00:52:28 Speaker_02
And for some of those, you can make your way back. You can find your way back to say, Hey, how do we get this thing back on track? And I think of so many really beautiful outcomes and others, they just, you haven't found your way back yet.

00:52:42 Speaker_02
But thinking about, you know, generous.

00:52:46 Speaker_02
realistic, optimistic, you could just say relationships are tricky with friends, people that you've, you know, like in Australia, they call them mates, like, you know, your, your mates, your buddies, like, and then, uh, some just take a little bit of time and there might be some people that, uh, you just need to air gap a little bit.

00:53:06 Speaker_02
Those can be like painful things. And yeah, you think realistically, I probably in that relationship, I'm the one that had a lot to learn in that, but I'm not going to just stay mired in that.

00:53:21 Speaker_02
I'm going to say, what I'm going to do is do a better job of these things.

00:53:26 Speaker_02
So that introspection, but without the beating yourself up part, because I think sometimes people that particularly the kind of people you and I would want to hang out with, the kind of people that would be listening to your podcast, they can be awfully hard on themselves.

00:53:42 Speaker_02
And I just need to remind you, you're not a piñata, right? When you hit yourself, this is not candy that comes out of you. It's other stuff. It's not what I want to do. You're not a piñata. I'm not a piñata.

00:53:57 Speaker_02
So instead of beating myself, what I want to do is I want to actually learn and grow and say, living in anticipation, how could I do a better job next time? There have been external things.

00:54:08 Speaker_02
Those feel a lot easier, but I remember when ISIS took over Iraq and was doing such awful things to the Yazidi women and that entire community. But women in particular, 6,000 of them abducted to make them brides of the combatants.

00:54:27 Speaker_02
And so we built an entire village. We built a hospital for them. And then the conflict ended, and they all went home. I didn't think that went through that great. Now, it's not empty, but can you see how you have this ambition?

00:54:46 Speaker_02
I bought a place in Washington DC once for people to come together to just like get along. And it just had an alternate ending that was not the one I would have picked.

00:54:57 Speaker_02
But I think I'm reminded of that idea of like to not lose hope, like to just keep trying. Keep trying. Now, I would try it differently, but what we need to learn is this lock picker's touch. I'm still teaching at San Quentin, and I just love that.

00:55:16 Speaker_02
You've got to come with me.

00:55:18 Speaker_00
I would love to. Next time I'm in Southern California, I'll go to San Quentin with you.

00:55:22 Speaker_02
Yeah, yeah. Within the next, any couple week period, you'll find me there. And they let me wear a Santa uniform in last Christmas. And so I'm going up this Christmas, I'm going to see, can I wear that costume again? And they're not big on costumes.

00:55:39 Speaker_02
Like you're either wearing blue and you're a resident of the gated community, or you're just like in street clothes and not wearing blue. But the warden is a really nice guy. He let me go dress as Santa.

00:55:51 Speaker_02
And now I'm in the yard and one of these Manson family members who's been a part of my class for years, he sat down in my lap and he said, I've never sat on Santa's lap. And I told him, well, I've never had a serial killer sitting in my lap before.

00:56:08 Speaker_02
So this is a first for both of us. I said, what do you want? And you know, he stopped for a second. He said, I just want a phone call on Christmas morning. And so we had the most delightful conversation on February or December 25th.

00:56:22 Speaker_02
It was just something really beautiful. And then he handed the phone to the next guy. And that guy handed the phone to the next guy and that guy, there's 30 guys that just wanted to have a conversation.

00:56:33 Speaker_02
And so when we talk about, you know, this idea of hungry and thirsty and sick and strange and naked and people in jail and widows and orphans to just not agree, but to actually show up. And that doesn't make you, the focus of that is not then on you.

00:56:51 Speaker_02
It's that, what can you learn from these guys? Like, what can you learn from the people around you, from the woman with a devil in her bathroom, from the person that's just had an end of life experience or beginning of marriage experience, whatever?

00:57:05 Speaker_02
But to get our head on a swivel, you want to live a noteworthy life, start taking notes, because I do. When I finish a phone call, when I finish this podcast, I will make some notes about what I learned having spent some time with you.

00:57:18 Speaker_02
So when Maria asked me at the end of the day, how was your day? I will not say fine. I'll say, let me tell you about it. How much time do you have?

00:57:25 Speaker_02
I think if we want to go a little bit deeper, experience all that's around, whether faith guides your steps or not, take notes. And then they're just for you. You don't need to make a book out of it. Just take some notes.

00:57:38 Speaker_02
And since then, it really happened. The parts that mattered were really kind of solidified.

00:57:45 Speaker_00
I know some of the stories of San Quentin, but I don't know the origin. How did you end up with a class at San Quentin?

00:57:53 Speaker_02
Oh yeah, the previous warden had a wife and the wife and then one of the other people that run that invited me up. They called up, they said, you want to come? I'm like, yes.

00:58:05 Speaker_02
And so then when I got there, I met all these terrific guys that have just messed up big time. And now it's old home week. I think we've had 800 guys out of the 3,000 there that have been in the class.

00:58:19 Speaker_02
So literally, when I go there, it's like, wow, they do it. Sweet Maria came with me once. She was a little freaked out. She's like, this is kind of creepy in a way. You don't even know anybody in San Diego, but you know all these guys.

00:58:34 Speaker_02
But they're just such a authentic community of men that I find their sincerity and their vulnerability and their honesty like so refreshing.

00:58:45 Speaker_02
There's professional athletes in there, and I'm not much of a sports guy, but I've learned this about the guys that I meet at San Quentin. I made the mistake early on of looking up one or two of them to find out. I was just curious.

00:59:00 Speaker_02
I wonder what they're in for. And it's hard to look and understand that and then see them the way they are. So what I've done to guard my heart and guard our relationship is I don't look at that because it doesn't matter.

00:59:14 Speaker_00
Just make them be in the moment and who they are. Yeah.

00:59:17 Speaker_02
And I try to guard my heart and guard that relationship by just not reading all the other stuff. And I think I would apply that to some of the people now. I'm not interested in all the background or all the kerfuffle around somebody.

00:59:32 Speaker_02
I just know that they've been through a hard time and they need to get better and I'll invite them up to a place we have here in Southern California. I'll just say, come on, bring the family.

00:59:43 Speaker_02
Let's just have a time where you can just get better and you can just work on whatever you need to work on.

00:59:49 Speaker_00
Why do you keep going back? Because some people would do that for a season. They'd be like, cool, but you've done it for years and years and years. What keeps you going back?

00:59:57 Speaker_02
Yeah, it's been really kind of new to talk to these guys. We were just coming up on a, you know, Christmas season.

01:00:04 Speaker_02
And so through the people that organize all that, Drew, Jody, the rest of the gang, they have it set up where the prisoners, we buy the gifts and they say what they want and then we get and then deliver the gifts to their families.

01:00:20 Speaker_02
And it's just so fun to see the dignity that comes out of this guy to say, yeah, I got you that for Christmas. It's just like, that just draws me in. I just want to get sucked along behind that.

01:00:34 Speaker_02
I made the mistake or my parents made the mistake when I turned 16 to give me the keys to the Volkswagen that had been parked in the garage on blocks.

01:00:43 Speaker_02
And my first day of driving, I announced that I was going to drive six and a half hours to the mountains to go hiking alone. that would you let your 16 year old do that? I can't believe this is child protective agency stuff. So they let me get on.

01:01:00 Speaker_02
I'd never been on the highway with a car and I got bored immediately. And I thought I had heard that if you get really close to block the ears of your young student drivers. But if you got really close to an 18-wheeler, the vortex would suck you along.

01:01:17 Speaker_02
But you know, you did the same thing. So I put it in neutral, and I got sucked behind this 18-wheeler for 45 minutes. This is why 16-year-old men are uninsurable. This is what happened at San Quentin.

01:01:32 Speaker_02
I've just gotten sucked along in this vortex that I'm seeing these courageous people, the people at Love Does, the inmates themselves, the incarcerated community. I've just been sucked in behind them. And I just, they haven't learned a thing from me.

01:01:47 Speaker_02
I've just like, every time I go, I just, I just immersed in their sincerity and their, some of them have some super practical needs and it's not for a file or an alibi. What they need is something.

01:02:01 Speaker_02
And they'll say, would you give a shout to my daughter? Would you give a, so to just be a person that's in friendship and relationship with them, I've been the big winner.

01:02:13 Speaker_00
So, Bob, I mean, I'm struggling with this personally, but the world is not a happy place right now. You look back 20 years ago, and almost every sociologist historian would tell you it was a more optimistic time.

01:02:26 Speaker_00
And, you know, the world has a lot of problems. And you're writing a book on catching whimsy. And I just love the bright light and the hope that you shine in the world. So I got to ask you, why whimsy? Why now? Why whimsy?

01:02:40 Speaker_02
Yeah, I just think when you lose your keys, what you do is you think, where was the last place I saw those things? And you go back to that place.

01:02:50 Speaker_02
And so I think sometimes in this complicated present world, and it's always been complicated just in different ways than it's complicated now, and we have a lot of self-identified journalists that are reporting the news to us with their particular slant and insecurities.

01:03:10 Speaker_02
All that, and I want to just push back against that and go back to this idea of the original cynics. They were looking for virtue. Diogenes would walk through Athens with his lamp lit at high noon every day. And when they said, what's up?

01:03:28 Speaker_02
It's light outside. He said, I'm looking for virtue. And so that idea of catching whimsy is to remind us about where we came from, to look

01:03:37 Speaker_02
for the virtue, and I don't mean like Pollyanna, this kind of saccharine faith and saccharine worldview, but a mature, reasoned worldview that is filled with possibilities that just say, like, what might be happening? I know we have setbacks.

01:03:53 Speaker_02
Yeah, we get gut-punched, and some of it's of our own making. Some of it might be well-deserved. Could we have this redemptive worldview? And I don't mean in a religious sense.

01:04:06 Speaker_02
I just, when I was a kid, I would get these Coca-Cola bottles that were empty, and it said on the bottom, redeemable, and it said five cents. And so I didn't, I don't go to church.

01:04:16 Speaker_02
So this idea, that was a big $20 word evidently in religious communities, but it just meant it was worth something. And so I would go to the grocery store and I would get a handful of nickels.

01:04:28 Speaker_02
And so that idea of the, some of the things that have happened to us, it stole not our imagination, but our whimsy. Like that idea of what might be possible, then could we lean in? And again, I'm not saying pixie dust.

01:04:41 Speaker_02
I'm just saying an accurate, realistic view that there's some hope on the other side of the pain, that there's some great lessons to be learned in the middle of it.

01:04:50 Speaker_02
And then to return to that childlike faith, like that, not childish, but childlike to say, what might be possible before love got super complicated?

01:05:01 Speaker_02
Before you made a rule, when you got your heart broken in junior high school, you made some stupid rule that said, I'll never love again. Did you ever do that? Gary, did that happen?

01:05:11 Speaker_00
I fortunately did not, but know so many people who did.

01:05:14 Speaker_01
Yeah, so it would just be like, I'm never gonna... And then, like, I had some... Oh, I've said I'll never be a friend again, though.

01:05:21 Speaker_00
Oh, bingo! I'll never do that. I'm never going deep with anybody.

01:05:24 Speaker_02
Never gonna be a friend again. Yeah, and so now I'm 20 and I can't get a date. And the reason I can't get a date is because I made a stupid rule that, like, I'm not going deep with anybody because my thought was everyone's gonna leave me.

01:05:39 Speaker_02
And so I'll just be abandoned. And so now you, if you don't revisit the rule to say that may have been scaffolding for your tender heart at the time, but this has actually imprisoned you now. It's no longer scaffolding.

01:05:53 Speaker_02
It's this limiting belief that's like kind of keeping you hemmed in. And so what I want to do is revisit some of the rules and that idea of going back to your first love, going back to your first, you tell me your first car.

01:06:06 Speaker_00
What was it, Kerry? It was a gift. It was an AMC Concorde. Can you believe it? Got it from my grandfather. Remember those? Remember those? It was a fishbowl. It was not a particularly fine car. It was brown. It was the 80s, but I loved it.

01:06:21 Speaker_02
What color was the interior?

01:06:23 Speaker_00
It was beige.

01:06:24 Speaker_02
AM-FM, cassette, 8-track.

01:06:26 Speaker_00
AM-FM, cassette, yeah, no 8-track. Air conditioning, I was living the high life, man. Yeah.

01:06:31 Speaker_02
So, if you ask somebody, like, what was your fifth car? And some people might still be driving their first car, but what was your fifth car?

01:06:40 Speaker_01
Yeah, good luck answering that.

01:06:41 Speaker_02
I just can't remember. So, we remember our first day at school, our first love, our first car, our first... And so this call to back to whimsy can say, could we just remember what it was like before it got really complicated?

01:06:55 Speaker_02
And so I'm not trying to make faith easy because it's not. I'm trying to make it simple because it is. Before we got, love got really complicated and then faith, everybody had an opinion about it.

01:07:08 Speaker_02
And like, whatever your work was, everybody had an opinion about that. Can we just go back to the simpler version of it? So I hope that this book will tap people on the shoulder. They won't be thinking about my high school coach.

01:07:23 Speaker_02
They'll be thinking about their high school coach. Not my first date with Maria, but their first date with somebody that mattered a lot to them.

01:07:32 Speaker_00
Well, that answers my next question, which is, and why a devotional? Now I know, because we need that 365 days a year. Is that why?

01:07:42 Speaker_02
Yes, and it was leap year, so I had to do 366. Sorry to make you work extra hard. Yeah, come on.

01:07:47 Speaker_02
But like that idea, I write books for people that are church-adjacent, like people that I don't put Bible verses in my books, because that wouldn't have meant anything to me.

01:08:00 Speaker_02
And I just, I would rather do what Jesus said, just tell people stories, tell stories that land, those endure in our life. And yet, I think there's a role for some people that that's a really neat thing to have the scriptures with it.

01:08:15 Speaker_02
So I thought, I'm going to do a devotional that kind of ties those together. I don't write those books often, but I just decided it was the right time for me to do that.

01:08:23 Speaker_02
In part, as an author of a lot of books yourself, this is part of the legacy for my kids' kids' kids. I want something to lean up against that snow globe and to say, this is among the things that I thought about when I was here.

01:08:41 Speaker_00
Bob, I'll tell you, it's always a breath of fresh air every time we have a conversation. And I'd love to give you any final thoughts, any final word that you want to encourage leaders who need a lot of encouragement.

01:08:55 Speaker_02
Yeah, here is my thought. For whatever reasons you've tuned in to Kerry, like me, you're tracking this in an infomercial, but you have found in him a voice you can trust. And so I want people to find in you a voice they can trust.

01:09:12 Speaker_02
I want us to be Switzerland. Give me a bobsled and a bar of chocolate. I just want to be a safe place. for people. And so we get to create that safe place. You can go to a safe place, you can create one at Starbucks, make them pay.

01:09:27 Speaker_02
But to create those safe places and then come prepared to have something to talk about. Not to teach, but to say, how can I be helpful? How can I be a village elder in this community that you've created?

01:09:39 Speaker_02
and without respect to whatever age you have chronologically, but how could I just be helpful and get out of the way?

01:09:47 Speaker_02
And there's something beautiful if we aren't the ones taking the bow, that we're pointing towards other things, lasting things, important things. That would be my hope for leaders. That's how we're going to get there as a community.

01:09:59 Speaker_00
Well, the book is called Catching Whimsy. It's a 366-day devotional, so you get a bonus day any time you choose to use it. Available everywhere books are sold. Bob, it's a delight to spend some time with you again today. Thank you.

01:10:16 Speaker_02
This is very selfish on my part to get an hour with a good guy. Thanks for being my friend.

01:10:22 Speaker_00
Well, that was fun and challenging and wonderful. Bob's always that way. We've got show notes for you wherever you're listening to this podcast or simply go to kerryneuhoff.com slash episode 696. We got them all there for you. It's free.

01:10:38 Speaker_00
And I would love to make 2025 a better year. I've got a book called At Your Best. It's a bestseller. In it, you get a complete strategy to get your time energy and priorities working for you, not against you. It's an antidote to stress and burnout.

01:10:55 Speaker_00
If you're looking to turn over a new leaf, there is no better time than right now to head on over to Amazon or go to atyourbesttoday.com and order your copy of the book.

01:11:06 Speaker_00
And now is also the perfect time to get your church really outward-focused in 2025. I think that's increasingly important. The best way to do it, perhaps, could be through sports.

01:11:16 Speaker_00
So, visit upward.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org.org

01:11:32 Speaker_00
Did you know there's indecision fatigue? Also coming up, we have J.P. Pokluta, Jenny Allen, Joby Martin, Mike Householder, Noah Herron. We've got Ramit Sethi. I'm so excited to bring you that.

01:11:44 Speaker_00
Dave Ramsey, John Orberg, Jenny Catron, Craig Groeschel, and a whole lot more. And before I let you go, hey, I got something free for you. It's my preaching cheat sheet. We've helped over 30,000 leaders change how they preach by learning ahead of time

01:11:57 Speaker_00
whether their message is likely to connect or not. It's a simple set of questions you can run your message through before you deliver it to know whether it will be delivered well or whether you got a little bit of work to do.

01:12:09 Speaker_00
Sometimes you get a green light, like it just works, right? So check it out. Go to preachingcheatsheet.com where you can download your free copy of the cheat sheet. The link is also available in the show notes.

01:12:19 Speaker_00
And I want to thank you so much for listening today. I hope this was as interesting and engaging for you and challenging, honestly, as it was for me. And we'll do it again next time.

01:12:29 Speaker_00
In the meantime, I hope our time together today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.