Cher is Here! AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast We Can Do Hard Things

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Episode: Cher is Here!

Author: Glennon Doyle and Audacy
Duration: 00:48:13

Episode Shownotes

364. Cher is Here! The global icon, Cher is here! Cher talks to Glennon, Abby, and Amanda about: -The truth about the ending of her relationship with Sonny -The advice Lucille Ball gave her that saved her life (and how she paid it forward) -Her regrets from when Chaz came

out to her -How she survived emotionally abusive relationships & her advice for how to get out To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary

In this episode of 'We Can Do Hard Things' hosted by Glennon Doyle, Cher reflects on impactful moments in her life, including her relationship with Sonny and the advice from Lucille Ball that transformed her perspective. She discusses emotional abuse, her journey of self-discovery, and the importance of financial independence. Cher shares her emotional experiences regarding her son Chaz's coming out and recounts her unexpected career path in acting and music, highlighting her resilience and commitment to not giving up despite challenges.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Cher is Here! ) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_00
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00:01:11 Speaker_00
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00:01:23 Speaker_00
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00:01:40 Speaker_00
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00:01:49 Speaker_00
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00:02:03 Speaker_00
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00:02:24 Speaker_03
If I could reach the stars, I'd give them all to you. And you love me, love me like you used to do.

00:02:35 Speaker_00
I don't think we should go there. I think we should just introduce the guest.

00:02:38 Speaker_05
I think we've gone there, Abby. And I don't think there's a damn thing you can do about it.

00:02:41 Speaker_03
I know, but it's like kind of... Pod squad, we're a little amped up because we just spent the last hour with Cher. Okay, with Cher. Cher is on the podcast today. And the first amazing news is that Cher is on the podcast.

00:03:03 Speaker_03
The second amazing news is that Cher was so warm, so wonderful. Cher helped us solve all of our life problems.

00:03:11 Speaker_03
Cher talked to us about how life is like a bumper car situation, and the only way to survive is to be a bumper car, which you're gonna need to hear. Cher talked to us about her regrets when Chaz came out to her.

00:03:25 Speaker_03
She talked to us about emotionally abusive relationships she's been in and how she got out. And what Lucille Ball said to her when she went to her for advice about how to get out.

00:03:37 Speaker_03
And she talked to us directly about what she would say to anyone who finds themselves in an emotionally or physically abusive relationship.

00:03:45 Speaker_05
And what she told Tina Turner to help Tina Turner get out of hers just

00:03:49 Speaker_03
Yeah, just the whole thing is so beautiful.

00:03:53 Speaker_05
She's a joyful, beautiful person.

00:03:55 Speaker_03
She is, and I just, I loved her before this interview and afterwards. I love her even more, and you will too, and I actually think that this conversation's gonna help. Get ready.

00:04:06 Speaker_04
The one, the only.

00:04:08 Speaker_00
If I could turn back time. We give you Cher, the icon. Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you. Okay, here I am.

00:04:20 Speaker_03
Cher, you are Cher.

00:04:23 Speaker_00
Yes, I am.

00:04:24 Speaker_03
This is Abby.

00:04:25 Speaker_00
I'm Abby.

00:04:26 Speaker_03
And that's my sister, Amanda. Hi. Hello. And I'm Glennon, and I'm going to be cool. I'm going to be cool. Cher, we love you. We have loved you.

00:04:36 Speaker_01
Thank you. Wait, we're all going to be cool then. Okay. Yes.

00:04:39 Speaker_05
I can't promise to be cool. I am rarely cool.

00:04:42 Speaker_01
Okay. I'll be cool.

00:04:43 Speaker_05
We love you. We'll just start with that.

00:04:45 Speaker_03
Thank you. All right. Well, that's a good start. Okay. I like that. I know you haven't heard that often. That's a new thing for you to hear. Your book, I absolutely loved. I started and didn't stop. Abby came up to me and said, how is it?

00:05:00 Speaker_03
What are you thinking? And I just thought, we know Cher, the icon. We know Cher, the Oscar winner. We know Cher, the singer. We know you, but this is so personal. This book is so personal. And it's such a gift to learn about you as a person.

00:05:13 Speaker_03
And I said to Abby, I just wish I could sit with her for an hour and ask her advice. And Abby said, well, don't we get to sit with her for an hour? You can ask her advice." And I thought, oh my God!

00:05:26 Speaker_01
I have to tell you too, I had to write that thing again. It was three times and it was just, it was such a bitch. I cannot tell you because it's hard. First of all, it's hard telling things you don't really want to tell. And then it's hard trying to

00:05:46 Speaker_01
get things in your own voice and be very careful. But then after a while, it was actually after a while, it was pretty good, but it was never easy.

00:05:55 Speaker_01
I was more proud of it, even though I think I should have done it one more time, but I was more proud of it. But it's not easy. It just wasn't easy. Or maybe it just wasn't easy for me. I don't know.

00:06:07 Speaker_03
I'm a book writer and I I agree that writing books is very hard, and I think one of the things that's hardest is telling the truth while also honoring your people. And you did that so beautifully.

00:06:20 Speaker_03
I loved everyone in your book, even the complicated relationships, all of it. I thought it was beautifully done.

00:06:26 Speaker_01
Thank you. I have to tell you that the first book that was written that I didn't have anything to do with, it was more like the encyclopedia. Then when I started doing it, I kept telling everybody, these have got to be stories.

00:06:42 Speaker_01
They can't be information. Yeah.

00:06:46 Speaker_03
Yeah. Speaking of stories, you start with you and your mama at an Elvis concert. And you're surrounded by all of the fainting girls, the screaming girls.

00:06:59 Speaker_03
And right from the beginning, that story got me because you looked at Elvis and you said, I want to be him. And I thought, oh, I bet the other girls were thinking I want to be with him.

00:07:12 Speaker_01
Right? Yeah. Yeah. My mom, my mom was crazy, but but my mom could be so much fun. And like when I said, Mom, can we get on the chairs and scream, too? I had no idea why I was doing it, but I wanted to do it. And she said, Sure, babe, get on.

00:07:29 Speaker_01
So we got up on the chairs and we were screaming and yelling. And my mom was so different than my my friend's moms. My mom was really cool. And she was excited to be there. And

00:07:42 Speaker_01
You know, we didn't have much money, but she got it and we just had the best time.

00:07:49 Speaker_03
Yeah. There's so many beautiful things in your book about your relationships. And since this first one is about early relationships, there's a lot about Sonny and Cher. And so much beauty was born from that relationship.

00:08:02 Speaker_03
But I was very grateful for your honesty in discussing the hard parts about how you lost yourself a bit in that relationship. So when you look back, What parts of that relationship were hurtful? How did you lose yourself?

00:08:18 Speaker_03
So many people write to us about losing themselves inside of relationships, and your story can be a real gift to them. So can you talk to us about that a little bit?

00:08:27 Speaker_01
Yeah, well, I was only 16, so I didn't have much self to lose. And Sonny was a much different person, and we just had this thing. If Sonny came back right now, we would be Sonny and Cher. It's just that thing.

00:08:44 Speaker_01
Not that I liked him at the end, but even if he came back, we would be Sonny and Cher. We couldn't help it. And I'm very forgiving. And so it was so complicated. It was so fucking complicated. He was really nice in the beginning.

00:09:01 Speaker_01
And then when we lost all of our money, it was maybe one of the best periods for us, except maybe then the beginning of the Sonny and Cher show, because that was so much fun.

00:09:13 Speaker_01
And it was a time where I had power that he didn't have, because for me, it was just pretending, you know, it was just having a good time. He didn't come by it easily.

00:09:26 Speaker_05
Oh, it was harder for him to do the show than you? Like harder for him to get into that character? Is that what you mean?

00:09:32 Speaker_01
Right. Well, he ended up doing a character who didn't study his lines.

00:09:37 Speaker_05
That does make it harder.

00:09:38 Speaker_01
Right. So that was where he was going to go. And then that was fabulous because we all laughed and, you know, and that was him. And then it started to get not so much fun. I mean, before that, I was not having a great time.

00:09:54 Speaker_01
But in the middle of the Sonny and Cher show, I was just not having a good time at all. I was having a great time with the show. I was not having a good time with him.

00:10:05 Speaker_05
Yeah. So you would be in your relationship suffering and then get on stage and be acting out the parts.

00:10:14 Speaker_01
But you know what? This is what's gonna be hardest for people to understand. We weren't acting out parts. We were really having a great time, but it was the only place where I had a great time.

00:10:28 Speaker_01
because I couldn't be under his thumb and because I realized, this happened to me twice, once when I had Chas and once when we did the Sonny and Cher show, that I had freedom and that he knew he had to give me freedom in order for me to help him and in order for us to have a good time.

00:10:49 Speaker_01
And thank God we worked most of the time because it would have been too hard for me.

00:10:55 Speaker_03
Yeah, sure. It felt like when I was reading, it felt like, oh, she's allowed to exist on the stage. But then off the stage, it was very controlling, right? You weren't allowed to wear what you wanted or wear perfume or have friends.

00:11:10 Speaker_03
It was kind of controlling off stage, right?

00:11:12 Speaker_01
Well, wait, babe, say that one more time because I think I'm losing you guys for a minute. Okay, let's try this again. Okay, you said something about what? Sonny was an asshole.

00:11:27 Speaker_03
Well, I was saying it felt like when I was reading that your relationship was good on stage because he was wanting you to exist in all your shareness on stage. But then offstage, it felt like he was controlling you.

00:11:42 Speaker_01
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was terrible, actually. It was, like, onstage, we were equals. And also, maybe he needed me more than I needed him. Yes. But offstage, because I had started so young, He was not interested in me being a human being at all.

00:12:06 Speaker_03
Okay. Now, Cher, there's this story that you tell in this book that I think could save lives, okay? And when things got really bad, you started thinking, maybe I have to end my life because I don't know how to get out of this.

00:12:22 Speaker_03
And then you're standing on a balcony and you have this epiphany.

00:12:29 Speaker_01
Well, I was having a really, really hard time. And when we were on the road, I just wasn't allowed any freedom at all. So I wasn't allowed to talk to the band. I wasn't allowed to do anything.

00:12:45 Speaker_01
I wasn't allowed to go any place, you know, I just wasn't allowed to do anything. So I kept thinking, I can't take this. And then one night I stopped eating, I stopped sleeping. And one night I just thought, I gotta get out of here.

00:13:03 Speaker_01
I'm just gonna jump off this thing. Then I thought, I can leave him.

00:13:08 Speaker_03
Yeah, it's such a beautiful thing because when you're in a bad relationship, your vision narrows and you think you only have this one option. So when I read that, oh, I don't have to jump, I can leave him.

00:13:21 Speaker_03
I thought that's going to save lives that moment.

00:13:25 Speaker_01
So then what happened? Right. I mean, it was like, it was a phenomenon like, oh, I don't have to do this. I can do that. And it just never occurred to me to do it. I think because he had so much control when we were not doing the show.

00:13:42 Speaker_01
And when we are on stage, it was the same thing. We were equal and there was nothing he could do. So at those two points, we were having a fun time and he was enjoying it. We were, I think, always destined to be Sonny and Cher. And

00:13:59 Speaker_01
So it was really fun, you know? And then the moment it was over, then it was, you know, I don't know. I don't know, it wasn't fun.

00:14:11 Speaker_05
You hear these stories about this, and in my experience, I'm just wondering, like, was it the more popular you got, the more life you had on stage, did that correspond with the more control he was exerting over you?

00:14:27 Speaker_05
Like, was it in response to you getting bigger that you needed to be smaller in the relationship?

00:14:33 Speaker_01
I really don't know because when I was young, I was kind of sickly. I had the strangest kind of, a lot of energy, a lot of emotion, a lot of just vitality and then sickness. And when I met him, I was in a sick kind of period and he took care of me.

00:14:54 Speaker_01
And then it kind of stayed like that and stayed like that. And then it got a little bit worse and it was more than taken care of. It was telling you what to do and what not to do. And I never thought, I just never thought to rebel.

00:15:11 Speaker_01
Because the one time I told him how I felt, and I remember saying, I'm just not happy. And he just started screaming at me and said, do you want me to divorce you? I should have said yes.

00:15:21 Speaker_04
Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:23 Speaker_01
But you know what, I wasn't ready till I was ready. I just, it hadn't taken so long. But because our careers were so entwined with our personal life, I didn't know what to do.

00:15:36 Speaker_01
You know, also I have dyslexia, not that that has anything to do with anything, but it's like I never made out a check until I was like, Right before I left him, I just was terrified.

00:15:48 Speaker_01
So I wasn't, I knew how to do what I did and I didn't know how to do much else except when Chaz was born and that was a great thing. When Chaz was born, now this is before the show, when Chaz was born, it lifted me up.

00:16:05 Speaker_01
When we started to do the TV show, it lifted me up and there was nothing he could do to me in those times. And I don't think there was anything he wanted to do to me.

00:16:15 Speaker_03
Hmm. How did you leave? Do you remember those moments? Like, how did you do it? I read in the book that you talked to Lucille Ball about what to do.

00:16:27 Speaker_03
This was a beautiful sisterhood chain, that you talked to Lucille Ball, and then after you left, Tina Turner came to you.

00:16:34 Speaker_01
Right.

00:16:35 Speaker_03
To ask you for advice. What did she ask you?

00:16:38 Speaker_01
What, Lucy?

00:16:39 Speaker_03
Yeah, you asked Lucy, right, first.

00:16:42 Speaker_01
Yeah, I asked Lucy, I said, you know, you're the only person that I know of who's ever been in this kind of a position. The only one. I said, and I don't know what to do. And she said, fuck him, you're the one with the talent.

00:16:57 Speaker_05
That's an evergreen statement if I've ever heard one.

00:16:59 Speaker_01
Yeah, and that's so Lucy. I knew Lucy when I was little.

00:17:04 Speaker_03
God, and then what did you say to Tina? What did Tina ask you exactly?

00:17:09 Speaker_01
How did you leave him?

00:17:11 Speaker_03
Mm-hmm. And what did you say to her?

00:17:12 Speaker_01
I said, I just walked out one night.

00:17:17 Speaker_03
So what would you say right now, you, Cher, who's been through all this, who's gotten out of this, what would you say to a woman who's listening right now who might be in a physically or emotionally abusive relationship?

00:17:28 Speaker_03
What would your advice be to a friend?

00:17:31 Speaker_01
I would say, It was easier for me to leave, except I ended up with a car and my clothes and that was it.

00:17:40 Speaker_05
And a $2 million debt.

00:17:42 Speaker_01
Yeah, well, that's true. I forgot about that. I remembered at the time, but I would tell, if you have any way to do it, do it. Because as I got older and more kind of like angry about having no freedom, That's when all of the, I can't do anything.

00:18:05 Speaker_01
I'm going to have to jump off. I can't do anything. I'm never going to be able to do anything. I'm just going to be caught here forever. So I don't know. Tell a friend, tell your mom, tell somebody and get out. If you can get out, get out.

00:18:19 Speaker_01
And if you can't get out, get out anyway.

00:18:33 Speaker_03
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00:18:43 Speaker_05
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00:19:42 Speaker_03
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00:22:03 Speaker_03
Are you happy now in your relationship with Alexander?

00:22:06 Speaker_01
Yes.

00:22:06 Speaker_03
You are?

00:22:06 Speaker_01
Yes. Why? I'm very happy. He's great. He's actually very settled. But we talk so much. We have everything to talk about. We talk about music. We talk about friends. We talk about love. We talk about desires. We talk about

00:22:25 Speaker_01
hope and God and slash, you know, and we talk about music a lot because we both love it and we're going to do an album together, but that is not just what we talk about, but we talk about our love of things, you know, and not material things, just things of doing things.

00:22:47 Speaker_01
And it's just, I don't know, we just get along except sometimes.

00:22:53 Speaker_03
How do you guys do conflict? when you're not getting along, how do you argue?

00:22:59 Speaker_01
Well, I'm the older one. Yeah. So I'm pretty good with conflict because I'm better at it. I've had it longer and I love him. So it's easier, even though sometimes it's not, but it's kind of give and take, but I give more and he gives more.

00:23:21 Speaker_01
He thinks he gives more. I think I give more. So I don't know.

00:23:25 Speaker_05
I heard you talking about how slow to anger you are. And as I was reading, I was wondering, that's baffling to me to be slow to anger.

00:23:38 Speaker_05
When you're thinking about all of your work and when you're also thinking about your life, what do you attribute being so slow to anger? And does part of you wish that you were

00:23:48 Speaker_05
Like when I think about your relationships, do you wish you were faster to anger or do you think it has served you or not served you to be so slow to anger?

00:23:58 Speaker_01
Well, I don't know what it's done, but I know that the reason that I'm slow to anger is because of my father, because everybody else and my father, I met my father till I was 11. And my mother and my sister are quick to anger.

00:24:14 Speaker_01
My grandmother's quick to anger. the man who I call my father, quick to anger. My real father, boy, he'll just wait and wait and talk to you. He was very easy He was like, there were two things I learned from my dad. Well, actually three.

00:24:33 Speaker_01
One, he ate slowly. And my mother used to say, Cher, don't dawdle with your food. And I wasn't dawdling, I was just eating slowly. And he had the long fuse and he had a good temperament in all ways, except he was a heroin addict.

00:24:50 Speaker_01
So that's always a rough one. And I don't know, I'm so happy that I have some of those things. Oh, and I smile like he does. My mom used to look at me every once in a while going, I was wondering what is she thinking?

00:25:03 Speaker_01
Because I know it doesn't have anything to do. And yet it probably does have something to do with me. So I'm glad that I don't. And people who know me just but God, if you really piss me off, run for the hills.

00:25:17 Speaker_03
Okay.

00:25:17 Speaker_01
because it takes so long to piss me off. But then, you know, you just don't want to be there.

00:25:23 Speaker_03
Cher, when's the last time you were really pissed off?

00:25:26 Speaker_01
Kim, when was the last time with Lisa? I honestly can't remember. It was in Sanctuary. That would be like 20... And who was it? Lisa. Lisa, yeah. 20... How many years ago? 27 years ago. Oh, wait. No, I was mad at my sister. OK. And how long ago was that? 15. So one is 20 something and one's 15.

00:25:51 Speaker_05
Holy shit. I don't even understand that. But you don't have like a similar, you're not pushing it down your anger. It just doesn't exist.

00:26:00 Speaker_01
It just takes a lot. And I, it's just, I don't know. I just don't, maybe I should have more, but I wouldn't like that. And I'm not doing it consciously at all.

00:26:12 Speaker_05
I think it's beautiful. I'm just jealous.

00:26:15 Speaker_01
I just don't, have it too much. I can't find it. You know, I mean, like it comes to me every once in a while, like every 15 or 25 years, but oh no, there was, there was the one about Rosie.

00:26:30 Speaker_05
Can you tell us one of those three stories? All right.

00:26:32 Speaker_01
I'll tell you the Rosie story. So I love Rosie and she works on the road with us and I just adore her. Right. And we had this new guy as a road manager. Was that what he was? Yeah, as a roadie.

00:26:44 Speaker_01
And he didn't think much of us because he had worked in rock and roll and thought we were just idiots. And so one night he came to pick up everybody from the hotel and he saw Rosie come to the bus and shut the door on her. And so Rosie called me.

00:27:07 Speaker_01
So when this guy came in, I pushed him up against the wall and I said, motherfucker, you will be gone when she's still here.

00:27:14 Speaker_03
God, I love you so much. Oh, of course. Of course it was a righteous anger.

00:27:20 Speaker_01
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:21 Speaker_03
Yeah.

00:27:22 Speaker_01
But I was pretty much uncontrolled.

00:27:26 Speaker_03
Interesting. Okay. I'm glad you picked that one. I want to talk to you, Cher, about women and money for a minute. So I have, there's like two favorite sets of words that anyone has ever said, that I've ever heard anyone say.

00:27:41 Speaker_03
And the first set of words is when my children have said, no, the second, my second favorite is when my children told me that they loved me.

00:27:49 Speaker_03
My first favorite set of words that has ever been uttered by a human being is the words- Oh my, I'm a rich man?

00:27:57 Speaker_01
Yes! It seems that girls like that.

00:28:01 Speaker_03
Yes, okay. So just in case no one has heard it, Your mom sits you down and says, Cher. Well, we were standing. You were standing.

00:28:10 Speaker_01
Okay, you tell the story. You tell it, you tell it. Yeah, yeah. So we're in the kitchen. and we're by the dining room table, which is not in the dining room, it's like the kitchen table.

00:28:20 Speaker_01
And I was telling her that I wanted to make this movie, but I didn't have enough money and I didn't see where I was going to get it or I couldn't figure it out and I didn't know who to go to and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:28:33 Speaker_01
And my mom said, babe, you should marry a rich man. And I went, mom, I am a rich man. And the other day I saw it on a painting and sometimes I see it on a needle point, like on a pillow.

00:28:50 Speaker_03
Yes, yes.

00:28:53 Speaker_01
It seems to appeal to us.

00:28:54 Speaker_03
So you have made and lost and made fortunes. You have supported so many people. You have had times in your life when you've had complete control of your money and times it's been stolen from you and times you didn't even know what you made.

00:29:09 Speaker_03
Cher, what do you want women to know about money?

00:29:13 Speaker_01
It's hard to learn about money, especially when you're poor. It's really hard because it scares you. And what you have to do is keep your head down. and find out what people are doing with it because, oh, you know, some people are not always good.

00:29:32 Speaker_01
So you have to try to find out what it means, what your money means, what you're doing, what people are doing to you, because it's not easy. Also, I trusted Sonny. Big mistake.

00:29:47 Speaker_01
And I asked him, which was always like a huge thing for me, I was like, son, when, just tell me, what day or time or year or situation were we having when you thought it was okay to take all my money? And he said, I always knew you'd leave me.

00:30:08 Speaker_03
Which wasn't an answer.

00:30:11 Speaker_01
No, because he didn't have a good one.

00:30:12 Speaker_05
No, no. Or maybe that was his answer because he knew that you were the prize, you're the talent. and that, so he was at least gonna get the money when you left.

00:30:27 Speaker_01
It's kind of rough to, I mean, that's a good answer in theory, but you know.

00:30:32 Speaker_05
It's still bullshit.

00:30:33 Speaker_01
It's just not good because, you know, I was there by his side working every moment. It wasn't like he deserved it. Oh God, no. And to say I did it because I knew you'd always leave me is just bullshit.

00:30:49 Speaker_05
Mm-hmm. It's abusive. Yeah. It's a terrible thing. What was the moment, like, when you learned that those contracts, that your company did not, in fact, belong to you?

00:31:00 Speaker_05
That you were contracted to work for a company that was named for you, but you owned 0% of?

00:31:07 Speaker_01
Right. Share Enterprises.

00:31:08 Speaker_05
Share Enterprises. He owned 95%, and the lawyer owned 5%, and you owned 0%, and that you could only work for that company?

00:31:15 Speaker_01
Yes, that made me really, really angry and disappointed in him because it wasn't that he was just taking my money, he was making it so I couldn't earn any. And David told me.

00:31:30 Speaker_03
Yeah, that was a beautiful story.

00:31:35 Speaker_01
Yeah, David just said, sweetheart, this is not good. It's, you know, we have to do something about this. But it took us kind of a long time. And finally, my lawyer said, you have to get divorced. And then you could break the contract.

00:31:51 Speaker_01
But when I broke the contract, there was no money to get and the judge made me pay him $2 million. He just said, Miss, in America, we don't Welsh on contracts. We don't try to pull out of contracts.

00:32:08 Speaker_01
And I said, well, I didn't say it, but I thought, well, what do you do about people who steal your money? How does that grab you?

00:32:14 Speaker_05
Well, in America, we let husbands steal money from their wives. That's what we do.

00:32:18 Speaker_01
Right, okay, fine.

00:32:21 Speaker_03
So then I went to work. And you went to work. Yeah. And you always went to work.

00:32:26 Speaker_01
But then in the end, I said, son, I can't do this all by myself. I just can't do it.

00:32:32 Speaker_01
So you're going to have to help me because I know I'm killing myself out here and you're going to have to help me because you won't get your money very soon if you don't give me a hand.

00:32:44 Speaker_03
Yeah. We just are so delighted to ask you, as queer women and queer advocates, we are big fans of Chaz, who you have called the strongest person in your family, which is so beautiful. Talk to us a little bit.

00:33:00 Speaker_03
We have so many listeners, because we are queer, whose children are coming out or transitioning. And it can be just a wonderful but scary time for a parent where so much is gained and some things are lost. can be confusing and hard.

00:33:16 Speaker_03
Can you talk to us a little bit how that has gone for you and what you would say to parents?

00:33:20 Speaker_01
I was terrible. I was terrible, okay? I was just terrible. And I was terrible. Chaz said, I'm gay. I was terrible. It was just, it was ridiculous. And I don't want to support all my friends. I mean, disappoint.

00:33:36 Speaker_01
But I was really nervous about what Chaz would face.

00:33:43 Speaker_04
Yes.

00:33:44 Speaker_01
And I couldn't do anything. But then we were going to Al-Anon together. And we'd been going to Al-Anon for a while. And then Chaz came in and said, I want to do this. And I was like, OK. But then after that, I started to get really nervous.

00:34:10 Speaker_05
After he told you about the transition?

00:34:12 Speaker_01
No. Oh. After he said, this is what I want to do.

00:34:15 Speaker_05
Okay.

00:34:16 Speaker_01
And you'll notice that in the beginning, I called Chaz Chaz. Yes. And I got an okay. So it was really rough. And then, then it just, was fine. And I don't know what I had to go through, but now it's great.

00:34:34 Speaker_01
But I don't know what made me go through all that stuff. I know I was really nervous about what was going to happen. I was really frightened about what would happen and what kind of backlash he would have, you know.

00:34:49 Speaker_01
And at that time, too, it wasn't like everybody was doing this. You know, it was like there were people who were transitioning. But I was nervous for Charles.

00:34:59 Speaker_03
Yeah, I think that is so fair. And we talk about it all the time, that it's often not that you're scared of your kid, you're scared for your kid and you're scared about the world. And I don't think it's disappointing that you say that.

00:35:11 Speaker_03
I think it's so honest and it's a gift because it gives parents permission to not get it, nail it the first time, but to keep trying.

00:35:21 Speaker_01
Well, yes. And I have to say, I was just frightened. I was just frightened. You know, when I think about it, I wasn't the person that I should have been. I wasn't the person that I wanted to be, or maybe not wanted to be. I didn't know how to be, maybe.

00:35:39 Speaker_01
But everyone would expect me to, you know, go, oh yeah, that's great. But now, you know, we have a great relationship, really great fun. And we work together in a project on a couple of projects. And it's just it's great.

00:35:57 Speaker_01
You know, Chad is a great person. Chaz is so much more together than I am.

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00:38:24 Speaker_03
What have you found to be the hardest thing about parenting?

00:38:28 Speaker_01
Oh, God.

00:38:30 Speaker_02
What?

00:38:32 Speaker_01
not screwing it up. Oh, and I do all the time. I'm a mess sometimes, you know, and my kids have had to put up with so much from me, you know, it's not easy being the child of a famous person. I think

00:38:47 Speaker_01
The best time we had when Chaz was young was Chaz and Gina, her best friend. And when we were on the road, they were working for me in Vegas and they were having the best time. And we were all having a great time. And Liza was little.

00:39:03 Speaker_01
And we just were out there in Vegas and and having the best time, except it was a bitch in Vegas then. And everyone said, oh, she went to the elephant's graveyard. Oh,

00:39:17 Speaker_03
I mean, Cher, what, okay, give us some advice.

00:39:20 Speaker_01
And now everybody and their brother wants to be in Las Vegas. Of course.

00:39:24 Speaker_05
And everyone's wearing the naked dress at the Met, and everyone's showing their belly button. You know who did it first? Cher. Cher did it.

00:39:32 Speaker_01
I probably didn't do it. I just did it.

00:39:34 Speaker_05
No, you did. You were the first one to show your belly button on TV.

00:39:37 Speaker_01
Oh, no, I know that. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And the mattress, I must say, no one's ever done it like Bob, because I was naked under it.

00:39:48 Speaker_05
Oh, God, it was just a work of goddamn art.

00:39:51 Speaker_01
Well, he's an artist.

00:39:53 Speaker_03
Speaking of everyone saying that you were going to the elephant graveyard, tell us how to survive being any sort of woman in the world with people saying all the shit that they're always saying. How does one

00:40:08 Speaker_03
If you can do what you have done and been so excellent for so long in the face of all of the shit, how?

00:40:17 Speaker_01
You know, I just wouldn't give up. I just wouldn't stop. I didn't know how to do anything else. And I have this picture in my mind that I realized it's like, I'm like a bumper car.

00:40:31 Speaker_01
And if I hit a wall, I'm going to back up and I'm going to go in another direction. And that's all that was left for me. I didn't really know another way. I didn't know how to do anything else.

00:40:42 Speaker_01
And so like when I hit one bad thing, I went to New York and became an actress.

00:40:48 Speaker_04
Yeah.

00:40:49 Speaker_01
I don't know how I did it. It was like such a fluke.

00:40:52 Speaker_03
A fluke. And then you're, you are the most amazing actor on the planet. Like you just kept fluking your way into being the most amazing.

00:41:02 Speaker_01
Well, no, getting my first job was really an accident. And I have to thank my mom because I'd gone to do an audition for Joe Papp. And he said, you know, Sher, you're really good, but

00:41:15 Speaker_01
Well, first I'd gone to do an audition for Mike Nichols, and he didn't have all that much to say. And I said to him, you know what? I'm really talented, and one day you're going to be so. Yes, I loved that. Right.

00:41:30 Speaker_01
So Francis says, if you're going to be an actress, and so did Shelley Winters, get your ass to New York. So I got my ass to New York, did the audition. It wasn't that good. Actually, it wasn't not good. It was quite good.

00:41:43 Speaker_01
But he said, and I can't tell you, but there are two kinds of women and you're not the one I need for this part. So anyway, so I get to New York and Chaz is living with Lee Strasberg and Anna, Lee and Anna and their kids.

00:41:58 Speaker_01
And so Randy and I, who was also living with them, Randy and I were going to do this thing for Joe Papp. And so he went up to Lee and he said, Lee, Cher wants to know, would you give her some help on this? And he said, Cher knows too much already.

00:42:15 Speaker_01
And he turned around and walked away. And I just, well, that's not very nice. So anyway, so we go to do the thing for Joe Papp. And then when I come out, there's a thing, you know, those memo things that say somebody called.

00:42:29 Speaker_05
Yes.

00:42:29 Speaker_01
So Robert Altman had called me. And the thing was that my mom and Catherine had been friends and Robert, too. So my mom knew I was in New York and I'd given her my number and all that.

00:42:42 Speaker_01
So my mom calls, but she's gotten my number mixed up with Robert Catherine's number. And my mom calls their house and she said, hi, is Cher there? And the guy is kind of not so nice. He said, no. And she said, oh, well, I thought Cher was there.

00:43:02 Speaker_01
And then he said, what would Cher be doing here? Then she went, wait a minute, Robert? And he said, Georgia? And she said, oh, I thought, oh, I screwed this thing up. So he said, what's Cher doing here? And she said, well, she wants to be an actress.

00:43:18 Speaker_01
And he said, ah, OK. So in a little while, he calls me and said, so your mom says you want to be an actress. And I went, yeah. And he said, well, I'm going to send you a script. I'm not offering it to you, but I'm sending it to you. I said, OK.

00:43:35 Speaker_01
And so it gets there late. And then he calls me and I went, OK, I know the part that you want me to play, but I can't do it. And he said, do you have a job? And I said, no. He said, well, then pass over here.

00:43:49 Speaker_01
So I went over and then I said, well, you know, I'm dyslexic and I could read or I can act, but I can't do them both." And he said, I don't care. I just want to hear how your voice sounds.

00:44:01 Speaker_01
And I said, all right, but I can tell you, I can't do one of the parts. And he said, all right, he was exhausted and exasperated and whatever.

00:44:09 Speaker_01
So we sat down, all the women were there, Sandy and Karen and Sudy, and we were all sitting down on the floor. And so I read the part that I knew I couldn't do. And then I read the part that I knew I could do. And

00:44:26 Speaker_01
Sandy said it was the worst reading I had ever heard in my life. But she said, from the first moment you started it, I was fascinated. And then I said, OK, well, that's always good. And then Robert asked me, he said, you're right.

00:44:44 Speaker_01
You can't play that part, but you can play that part. And then we're talking and we're talking. And he said, what did you think of Popeye? And I said, I thought you ruined it.

00:44:54 Speaker_01
And then everybody who was in the room turned, like when a shark is coming and fish are just, you know, they're just there swimming and then they all turn in the middle sideways and you can't see them and they're gone.

00:45:05 Speaker_01
So anybody, everybody was like gone. And then he said, God damn it everybody. So anyway, so I got the part and then I go on Broadway. on a Wednesday. So I'm doing my matinee and I was, I love doing matinees. So I come off stage and Mike is there.

00:45:28 Speaker_01
And so he said, you were right. You're talented. And I'm really sorry. And the truth was, I'd broken up with my boyfriend and he had come back and was backstage. And I was really more interested in seeing my boyfriend than getting a part in this movie.

00:45:46 Speaker_01
So then he said, it's with Meryl Streep. And I went, okay. And then I get back to my apartment, my sister's there. And I went, Jesus Christ, I can't do a movie with Meryl Streep.

00:45:59 Speaker_01
packing and then I start unpacking and then my sister starts packing me and so I end up getting the job and then I end up going to Texas.

00:46:11 Speaker_03
Do you love acting or do you love singing more or what do you love the most? What's the art form that you love the most to do?

00:46:18 Speaker_01
they're different. Acting is concentrating and singing is not. Singing is just you stand on the stage and you just let your voice come out and it can be really big and it can be soft, it can be whatever. And then acting is like getting kind of

00:46:38 Speaker_01
small inside and then letting things come out. And they can come out loud and they can come out angry. They can come out any way, but it's more of a internal thing.

00:46:49 Speaker_03
Oh, that's beautiful. OK, I have one last question. What's your next dream?

00:46:56 Speaker_01
Oh, my next dream is this album I'm going to do with Alexander because I shouldn't be singing at this age because it's not easy. When I made the Christmas album, I didn't think I could sing anymore, and then all of a sudden I could.

00:47:14 Speaker_01
Now, I just want to be able to do it again because the songs he got. He used to be vice president of Def Jam, so the songs he got are so genius.

00:47:24 Speaker_03
How wonderful. Well, we can't wait for that. Your book is beautiful. Also, are the other two parts coming out? Like, how will that happen?

00:47:34 Speaker_01
Well, there's not two parts coming out. There's another part coming out.

00:47:38 Speaker_03
Okay. And when is that coming out?

00:47:40 Speaker_01
I have no idea.

00:47:41 Speaker_03
Okay. When she gets to it, don't push her. I'm just saying. She's doing a lot.

00:47:46 Speaker_01
Okay. Next Christmas. Okay.

00:47:47 Speaker_03
Oh, great.

00:47:48 Speaker_01
Okay. Wonderful. It's a long time, doesn't it?

00:47:51 Speaker_03
It will be worth the wait. Cher, thank you for never giving up like you just said. Thank you for being just a gorgeous example of freedom and courage your whole life. This hour has been an honor for us and we are forever grateful to you.

00:48:04 Speaker_01
Thank you. But courage has not been the strongest thing. It's motivate. It's just moving forward. You know, I never thought of it as courage. It was just not giving up.

00:48:17 Speaker_03
That's even more inspiring, because then you don't have to have the courage. You can just not stop while you're scared.

00:48:21 Speaker_00
You just don't give up. Right. You just don't give up. Thank you so much, Cher.

00:48:25 Speaker_03
Bye-bye. Bye, Cher. Thank you. I never thought I'd be able to say that. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

00:48:43 Speaker_03
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00:48:54 Speaker_03
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00:49:07 Speaker_03
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00:49:19 Speaker_03
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00:49:27 Speaker_03
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