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Episode: Best Of: Making 'The Piano Lesson' / Selena Gomez

Author: NPR
Duration: 00:50:10

Episode Shownotes

A new film adaptation of the Pulitzer Prize-winning August Wilson play The Piano Lesson is now on Netflix. It's about a brother and sister battling over what to do with a family heirloom piano. Denzel Washington and his daughter Katia served as producers, and his sons John David and Malcolm

starred in and directed it. The brothers talk about bringing the play to the screen. Also, we hear from Selena Gomez about the Spanish-language musical Emilia Pérez. Gomez plays the wife of a brutal drug cartel leader who decides to undergo gender-affirmation surgery. Film critic Justin Chang reviews blockbusters Wicked and Gladiator II.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Summary

This episode features discussions with Malcolm and John David Washington about their adaptation of August Wilson's play 'The Piano Lesson', exploring the themes of heritage and identity tied to a family heirloom piano. Additionally, Selena Gomez shares her journey in relearning Spanish for her role in 'Emilia Pérez,' a musical addressing gender affirmation and personal growth. Themes of cultural heritage, representation in acting, the pressure of fame, and the importance of family legacy are also explored throughout the conversation, showcasing how personal experiences shape artistic endeavors.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Best Of: Making 'The Piano Lesson' / Selena Gomez) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

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00:00:49 Speaker_00
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00:01:58 Speaker_11
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, John, David, and Malcolm Washington joined me to discuss bringing the August Wilson play, The Piano Lesson, to the screen for Netflix.

00:02:13 Speaker_11
It's about a brother and sister battling over what to do with the family heirloom piano And the production of it was a family affair that included their sister Katia and their father, Denzel Washington, who both served as producers.

00:02:27 Speaker_11
We also hear from Selena Gomez. She stars in the new Spanish-language musical, Emilia Perez. Gomez plays the wife of a brutal drug cartel leader who decides to undergo gender affirmation surgery.

00:02:40 Speaker_11
Gomez had to relearn Spanish to take on the role after losing her fluency as a kid. And film critic Justin Chang reviews Gladiator 2 and the musical Wicked. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

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00:04:27 Speaker_11
This is Fresh Air Weekend, I'm Tanya Mosley, and today my guests are Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers collaborated on the late August Wilson's The Piano Lesson for the screen on Netflix.

00:04:40 Speaker_11
It's the fourth play in Wilson's American Century Cycle, a series of ten plays that captures the Black American experience through every decade of the 20th century.

00:04:51 Speaker_11
Malcolm serves as the director, and John David stars as the brash, impulsive, and fast-talking boy Willie, who wants to sell the family piano to buy land in Mississippi that his family was enslaved on.

00:05:04 Speaker_11
The family battle ensues between boy Willie and his sister Bernice, played by Danielle Deadweiler, who wants the family to hold on to the piano, a family heirloom engraved with their ancestors' faces. The production of this film was a family affair.

00:05:20 Speaker_11
The brothers' sister Katia and their father, Oscar-winning Denzel Washington, are producers. And Denzel, who starred and co-produced in Wilson's Fences, has committed to adapting Wilson's plays into 10 films.

00:05:33 Speaker_11
Their mother, Pauletta Washington, even appears in the movie, starring as Mama Ola. The Piano Lesson is Malcolm Washington's directorial debut for a feature film, and John David portrayed Boy Willie in the Broadway revival of The Piano Lesson.

00:05:48 Speaker_11
He's also starred in several films, including Spike Lee's Black Klansman and Christopher Nolan's time-travel mind-bender Tenet. John David and Malcolm Washington, welcome to Fresh Air.

00:05:59 Speaker_14
Thank you for having us. Hello. Yeah, thank you. That was quite an introduction. I was like, whoa.

00:06:03 Speaker_11
Well, I want to get right into our discussion about the film by playing a clip. And the story takes place in 1936. Bernice, played by Danielle Deadweiler, lives in Pittsburgh with the piano and her brother, boy Willie, played by you, John David,

00:06:20 Speaker_11
is a sharecropper in their hometown of Mississippi, and he's driven up to Pittsburgh in hopes of persuading Bernice to sell. And their uncle, played by Samuel L. Jackson, explains why Bernice won't do it. He speaks first. Let's listen.

00:06:34 Speaker_01
Bernice ain't gonna sell that piano, cause her daddy died over it.

00:06:44 Speaker_13
All that's in the past. If my daddy That scene where he could've traded that piano. And for some land of his own, wouldn't be sitting up here now. He spent his whole lot farming somebody else's land.

00:07:02 Speaker_01
I ain't gonna do that.

00:07:07 Speaker_11
That was my guest today, John David Washington with Samuel L. Jackson in the Netflix film, The Piano Lesson, directed by my other guest, Malcolm Washington.

00:07:16 Speaker_11
And, you know, this is such a black American story that endures that yearning to pass down items of value up against this very real

00:07:28 Speaker_11
an often desperate need to sell for practical reasons, or in Boy Willie's case, to gamble towards this American dream of owning land.

00:07:35 Speaker_11
And I want to start by asking you, Malcolm, what was it about this story that you felt was not only enduring, but an urgent one that needed to be retold now?

00:07:48 Speaker_14
Yeah, I think it's really, really, really important for people to learn their history, both ancestral and just culturally. Know where you come from and acknowledge it, because we're living in a time where

00:08:07 Speaker_14
People are trying to rewrite history or erase people from history and their contributions.

00:08:13 Speaker_14
So it's kind of incumbent upon all of us to reclaim our stories, you know, and proclaim them and declare them, who we are as a people, who we are as a culture and identity. All these things are super urgent to reclaim.

00:08:26 Speaker_11
You also wanted to bring a modern touch to this. And I mean, August Wilson is one of the greatest playwrights of our time. So, I mean, this material is just right. But I can imagine that's also intimidating, possibly.

00:08:39 Speaker_11
What was your first step in bringing your director's touch to what is well-established material?

00:08:46 Speaker_14
Yeah, it was intimidating, but it was also very exciting. The first step was putting this in a context, a historical context, understanding the moment that the play was written in, the moment that it's speaking to, that it's set in.

00:09:02 Speaker_14
It was about learning as much as I could about August Wilson, his considerations as a writer, who he was as a man, where he's from, what he stood on, his belief system.

00:09:13 Speaker_14
Understand all these things about him and his intentions so that you can kind of pass it through the prism of yourself and bring your voice to it, but always trying to serve this kind of bigger thing.

00:09:25 Speaker_11
John David, in the scene that we played, you were in character with Samuel L. Jackson, who actually originally played Boy Willie in 1987. And in this film, he plays the uncle to Bernice and Boy Willie. His performance, it's quiet, it's contemplative.

00:09:44 Speaker_11
He exudes kind of like this wise knowing as he watches you. And for me, it was a little bit emotional. I'm like going through this moment where I'm looking at all of our actors as we move through time and they age.

00:09:58 Speaker_11
It was just emotional to watch, knowing his history with the character. What was it like for you to watch him watch you, both in the Broadway version and in this movie?

00:10:11 Speaker_13
That's that's an interesting observation because I think that was happening for me to just his relationship to the play which he's been you know, very public about and We're like what he represents as a black african-american actor in this industry There was there was a lot of things working at the same time Well, we can start with the word intimidating.

00:10:32 Speaker_13
It's You know pressure field is some words also that come to mind when thinking about what we're reflecting about my experience particularly on stage every night saying these words that he's perfected that he helped sort of erect and

00:10:48 Speaker_13
and get to Broadway, you know? So there was a lot of pressure there, but I felt so encouraged because of how he supported us.

00:10:57 Speaker_13
As I gradually got into it and grew into the character, I realized how beneficial it was for me to hear those stories and infuse that into the motivation of getting this thing as true as possible.

00:11:08 Speaker_11
He was supportive of you guys talking to you about the industry and the craft, but did he talk to you about this character, or did he kind of leave that to you to interpret it?

00:11:19 Speaker_13
things that were working, he would comment on. Like, I never thought to do it that way, or I never thought about it this way. And he said that, and if you know Mr. Sam Jackson, he's a tough critic.

00:11:30 Speaker_13
So any kind of positive feedback from him is like, I'm taking to my grave. If I never work again, I know Sam Jackson liked the choice I made, you know what I mean?

00:11:41 Speaker_13
So in that regard, yeah, he was influential in my encouragement of I'm on the right track.

00:11:49 Speaker_11
I'm really curious, John David, why do you think actors in particular are drawn to Wilson's work kind of as a way to deepen their craft? I'm thinking about all of the actors that are really well known today who have gone through and done these plays.

00:12:09 Speaker_11
Courtney B. Vance, James Earl Jones, Viola Davis, your father Denzel, so many others. What is the gravitational pull?

00:12:19 Speaker_13
I think so often we have to dig when we find really good writing, great writing, we still have to dig. These names you're talking about, we have to dig, we have to find it.

00:12:30 Speaker_13
We excavate, we research, and we have to meet a lot of the writing, the really good writing somewhere. August Wilson comes to us.

00:12:41 Speaker_13
And it's a relief when you get a voice that is yours, when you get a voice that is somebody you're related to, when you get an experience that both a 50-year-old, 70-year-old man, a 20 to 40-year-old man,

00:12:58 Speaker_13
There's so many specific moments in our culture that he accurately depicts. I'm talking about when every N-word is properly placed. You know, there's magic to that, to be honest.

00:13:10 Speaker_13
If we meet August Wilson with our best and most honest self and experience, you will come out a different actor.

00:13:19 Speaker_11
If you're just joining us, my guests today are John David and Malcolm Washington. We're talking about their new film, The Piano Lesson. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

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00:14:32 Speaker_11
This is Fresh Air Weekend, I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to my interview with Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers have taken on the late playwright August Wilson's play, The Piano Lesson, for the screen.

00:14:44 Speaker_11
The production of this film was a family affair. The brothers' sister, Katya, and their father, Denzel Washington, are the film's producers. Denzel has committed to adapting Wilson's plays into 10 films.

00:14:57 Speaker_11
The plays capture the black American experience through every decade of the 20th century. Your names, Malcolm and John David, where do those names come from? I can kind of guess with Malcolm, but I want to be sure.

00:15:14 Speaker_13
Well, I guess I'll start because mine's a little more controversial, if you will. I found out late. What I mean is, I'll explain. So John David, from what I thought known until I was about 17, was my Uncle David and my great-grandfather John.

00:15:33 Speaker_13
One night after a victory, it was a high school football game and we beat our rivals and we're one game away from state championship. We're very excited. We're all happy. We're home celebrating and just screaming out loud how great of a victory it was.

00:15:47 Speaker_13
And my father, in his joy and great glee, he says, that's why I named you John David after John David Crowe, a football player. The record scratched. I guess that was the first time my mom heard that. Definitely the first time I heard that.

00:16:01 Speaker_13
I didn't mind it. That's cool. But mom was like, what? And then she got quiet. And it's interesting how quietness can bring on more anger than yelling, you know? And you could tell she was disturbed by that a little bit.

00:16:14 Speaker_13
She was like, but Denzel, I thought he was named after Uncle David, your brother, and Grandpa John. And he's kind of like, yeah, yeah, but.

00:16:22 Speaker_14
But the truth is, really, it was a combination. Yeah, so they had different stories on it. They had different stories, yeah.

00:16:31 Speaker_11
Malcolm X, is that who you were named after or not?

00:16:34 Speaker_14
Actually, no. No, I'm named after, he's a cousin of mine, but our dynamic and age, he's like an uncle. My cousin Malcolm from Eden, North Carolina.

00:16:47 Speaker_11
All right, big ups to cousin Malcolm. And John David Crowe, by the way.

00:16:55 Speaker_14
Don't leave John David Crowe out. Right, that's right.

00:17:01 Speaker_11
You know, I noticed how in interviews, both of you guys, you kind of say it offhandedly, but you regularly rep Los Angeles as your hometown.

00:17:11 Speaker_11
I want to know what does it mean for the both of you to identify not only as Angelenos but, you know, you're Black Angelenos and then you also come from like a very privileged section of that then as well.

00:17:25 Speaker_11
I mean, how did growing up here influence your art and your taste?

00:17:31 Speaker_14
I love LA so much. I think LA is just an incredible city.

00:17:36 Speaker_14
There's so many amazing cultures that come together there that it's like it's a place that's both a physical place and metaphysical and that when people think about like there's an idea of what LA is and then there's kind of a lived experience of what LA is.

00:17:50 Speaker_14
I like that it operates on a couple different fronts. I think that it like

00:17:56 Speaker_14
It functions kind of like how Pittsburgh functions in our story, The Piano Lesson, where it's a place, especially for black people, it's a place where in the Great Migration, so many black people came in search of opportunity to build a new life, to build themselves up.

00:18:12 Speaker_14
So it's a place built off of not only the hopes, but the labor of dreams. You know, like somebody had to build that place. And I think that it lives in that, you know.

00:18:27 Speaker_11
You know, as a kid growing up in the 90s, your father Denzel, Spike Lee, Samuel L. Jackson, I'll even throw in like Eddie Murphy and just so many people. They played such a big role in the construction of Black Pride for so many, myself included.

00:18:44 Speaker_11
And I'm just... I really want to know how that felt internally to grow up among it and in it.

00:18:51 Speaker_11
Like, was Black history and Black pride also something that your parents instilled in you in the way that, like, just to the public, they were instilling in all of us?

00:19:03 Speaker_14
Absolutely. You know, I grew up with such a strong consciousness. And you got to remember, like, I grew up in the era of my dad having played Malcolm X. So I identify with Malcolm X as a figure. I identify with that part of our story.

00:19:20 Speaker_14
And growing up in L.A. in the 90s, post-L.A. uprising, where black people have a voice, they're fighting for something, they're believing in something, they're saying something, I connected to that so much.

00:19:34 Speaker_14
So that, that, it's like how Boyd Whitley says, you know, I was born in a time of fire. It's like, I, I feel that too.

00:19:39 Speaker_14
You know, I, that resonates with me, um, from both the, the creative artistic movements that were happening at the time, the political movements that were happening at the time, um, of people declaring themselves and, uh, who they are at the time.

00:19:52 Speaker_14
And so all of those things live in me and I'm, I'm happy that my parents had such a pride in our culture, have such a respect for it and instill that in us.

00:20:01 Speaker_11
Yeah. John David.

00:20:04 Speaker_13
Yeah, I was just thinking about your question in my childhood. My first time I played Pop Warner football, tackle football, was Baldwin Hills.

00:20:15 Speaker_11
Baldwin Hills is a neighborhood in Los Angeles for those who don't know. Yeah.

00:20:19 Speaker_13
Yeah, that's right. And, um, and, but yet I was going to school in the Valley, you know, and, uh, you know, I, I remember the first time I got chased down by some Crips, you know, in Los Angeles with a friend of mine.

00:20:31 Speaker_13
You know, I remember first time being asked, where, where you from, you know, and, uh, where your, where your mama from, all that. Like, there's a Kendrick part of it too. He's like, well, where your mama stay, where your grandma stay.

00:20:41 Speaker_13
I've, I've experienced that before, you know, at, at Magic Johnson's movie theater. So, um... What would you tell people?

00:20:47 Speaker_11
Because, I mean, were you saying, oh, I'm Denzel Washington's son?

00:20:51 Speaker_13
I would absolutely not say that, you know, it was funny like and it was depicted in the wood like the character says I'm from North Carolina.

00:20:57 Speaker_13
I would say that I'm like, I'm actually I would deny where I would deny where I was from and say I was from another state a lot of times but I forget why they were chasing us at one time. It was a friend of mine that started stuff. Yeah, you know why.

00:21:08 Speaker_13
I do know why actually. I'm not gonna call them out here. But I think about some of those memories of my LA experience because it is an interesting one because of the blends of cultures that I was able to experience.

00:21:20 Speaker_13
You know, going to private school, yet playing ball, balling hills, having friends that lived in different neighborhoods. You know, I just got a full course meal in diversity.

00:21:30 Speaker_11
I want to ask you guys about something else, and I want to see if I can formulate it right, but like, how do you deal with the heat of fandom and desire?

00:21:40 Speaker_11
Because, I mean, your dad, for instance, is not only a great actor, you're already laughing, but your dad's already, of course he's a great actor, but he's also like every mom and every auntie's crush.

00:21:55 Speaker_13
Find it, find it every generation, right?

00:21:56 Speaker_11
Find it every generation, right. And now you guys are continuing the torch. I actually just picked up in LA Magazine and John David, you're on the cover looking like a sex symbol, you know?

00:22:06 Speaker_14
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let the people know. Oh, boy. Just let them not know, okay?

00:22:12 Speaker_11
I'm just curious. What's the question? She's like, that's it. That's it. Period. No.

00:22:20 Speaker_11
What did, like, I'm wondering, what did your dad teach you or what lessons did you learn from watching him when it comes to navigating that energy and that heat that, like, throngs of fans throw towards you?

00:22:31 Speaker_11
Because, I mean, I can't even imagine what your DMs might be like, you know?

00:22:35 Speaker_12
Oh, my God.

00:22:38 Speaker_13
Who's listening to this? Honestly, what I think about childhood memories, my dad bringing home a trumpet.

00:22:46 Speaker_13
I remember him, he dyed his hair red, getting ready for Red and Malcolm X. Him walking me around the streets of New York reciting Shakespeare when he was getting ready for Richard III. So I've always been fascinated with that.

00:22:59 Speaker_13
My mom sat down and played a number, a classical number on the piano without reading the notes. I think about that, of that really. I think that's the relationship, that's what was being taught.

00:23:11 Speaker_13
It seems like it was always, to me, it's always been about the work. That's what they both teach us.

00:23:16 Speaker_11
They both teach you that, but there's no denying that there's also that other thing, and I just want to know how you navigate it, both of you.

00:23:25 Speaker_14
I think that they were so protective of themselves first and us as well. They always just highlight keeping the noise outside. I think that heat and desire that you're speaking of can be that noise.

00:23:44 Speaker_14
I think that we all just live very meaningful, private lives. I don't have that heat and desire in my DMs. So I don't have to deal with it the same way John David does as an actor and his face is out there all the time.

00:24:01 Speaker_14
But I think that they just... Aren't you on GQ?

00:24:03 Speaker_13
Wasn't there a GQ thing? Weren't you lit perfectly? Weren't you with your well-moisturized lips and the goatee and the hair was harrowing?

00:24:14 Speaker_14
It was a full beard.

00:24:15 Speaker_13
Yeah, the braids were braiding.

00:24:17 Speaker_14
But for real, I think it's just like the kind of focus and protection of your piece and yourself and not kind of getting swept up in all the other stuff.

00:24:28 Speaker_13
They made it clear, too, that this is theirs. Y'all got to earn yours, you know what I mean? It's them taking us to school. It's my dad coaching us. We were living somewhat of, I think, a normal life because that's the environment they set.

00:24:44 Speaker_13
We celebrated Christmas. We would go trick-or-treating on Halloween. It was a lot of that going on.

00:24:50 Speaker_11
Both of you make such a strong point, and it's beautiful to see. But every chance you get, you remind people that you're the sons of both Denzel and Pauletta. They be trying to erase my mom over here. That's crazy.

00:25:05 Speaker_14
It's just more of a reaction, I guess. We love our parents, you know, we love both of them.

00:25:11 Speaker_14
And you know what saddens me sometimes about that is like, man, just like the role that mothers play, that black women play in our culture, that black mothers play, it's like such a crucial one.

00:25:22 Speaker_14
And they're often such a, it's such an overlooked position sometimes, like people don't give them their flowers. Yeah, we're going to give our mom our flowers. We love her. She's done so much for us.

00:25:33 Speaker_13
And to piggyback on that, to celebrate the woman she was before she was a mother, before she was a wife. Both my brother and her have their masters in the artistry. The only ones in the family that do.

00:25:45 Speaker_13
So that's important to me too, and we both carry that with us when we approach the art. That's part of the reason we love it as well, knowing that she's an artist in her own right.

00:25:56 Speaker_13
So it's to piggyback on what you said, because I think that's a great point about women.

00:26:02 Speaker_11
Yeah. What's her reaction to you guys making that statement and stating it so clear? Because as a mother, I just always smile. Like, I want my children to be speaking my name out in the world like that, you know?

00:26:13 Speaker_14
Yeah, and can you imagine? You know what I mean? Can you imagine? It's like...

00:26:17 Speaker_14
They've gotten to like an impossible situation, you know, it's like my dad growing up first at Harlem and then Mount Vernon and just kind of like where he's ascended to in his... He be claiming Harlem like that? Yeah, what you mean?

00:26:33 Speaker_14
And then God forbid he meets somebody from Mount Vernon and then it's like, what's Harlem, you know? But yeah, they both overcome and made such incredible lives for themselves.

00:26:49 Speaker_14
And I think we carry pride of coming from such strong people that live a purposeful life.

00:26:57 Speaker_11
Yeah. John David, the older you get, the more and more you sound like your dad. Do you guys get confused at all in listening, like on the phone or no?

00:27:08 Speaker_14
Yes. I used to call the house. I used to call the house. And of course, you have that thing when you're 16, 17, maybe staying out a little late or something, or the report card came in, it wasn't perfect.

00:27:21 Speaker_14
And you call the house and you're like, oh, I hope my sister picks up. I hope my brother picks up. And John David would pick up and he would sound just like my dad. Hello. Oh my goodness. I would stand straight up. I guess I can't deny it.

00:27:36 Speaker_14
It's always been like that.

00:27:37 Speaker_11
Yeah. Do you think you'll adapt any more of August Wilson's plays?

00:27:44 Speaker_14
You know what?

00:27:45 Speaker_14
I think that there's a really wonderful thing happening now where so far there's three films, there's been three different filmmakers, and three different voices that have come to them, and each of the films kind of reflect the voice of the filmmaker so far, like my dad with fences.

00:28:00 Speaker_14
Mr. Wolf, he's an incredible theater director, and I think that you can see that talent at work in Ma Rainey. My voice is different from theirs, and I think you see that in Piano Lesson.

00:28:13 Speaker_14
So I hope that for the rest of them, they continue to get varied voices from different backgrounds and different points of view, and let this whole thing be a much larger project where you look back and it's this tapestry of black

00:28:26 Speaker_14
artists working this time connecting to this seminal texts.

00:28:31 Speaker_11
Malcolm Washington and John David Washington, this was such a pleasure to talk with both of you and thank you so much.

00:28:37 Speaker_14
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, great conversation. I appreciate it.

00:28:42 Speaker_11
John David and Malcolm Washington's new film is The Piano Lesson.

00:28:47 Speaker_11
Their father, Denzel Washington, is starring in his own film, the much-anticipated blockbuster Gladiator 2, which is expected to battle at the box office with another big studio film, Wicked.

00:28:59 Speaker_11
Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande star in Wicked, and our film critic Justin Chang has seen both movies. Here's his take.

00:29:08 Speaker_09
Some moviegoers are already referring to Gladiator 2 and Wicked as this year's Barbenheimer. I believe Glickid is the portmanteau of choice. We'll see if the comparison holds up. Both these lavish spectacles are set to be huge hits.

00:29:25 Speaker_09
But unlike Barbie and Oppenheimer, they're essentially known quantities... Rooted in stories and characters that the audience knows well.

00:29:34 Speaker_09
Wicked was adapted from the long-running Broadway musical, which was itself inspired by Gregory Maguire's 1995 novel. But you should know, going in, that this 2 hour and 40 minute movie is just Part 1.

00:29:49 Speaker_09
And there will be a year-long intermission before Part 2.

00:29:53 Speaker_09
The director John M. Chu, of In the Heights and Crazy Rich Asians, takes a glossy maximalist approach to this origin story for The Wicked Witch of the West, the villain so memorably played by Margaret Hamilton in the 1939 classic The Wizard of Oz.

00:30:10 Speaker_09
In this telling, the witch's name is Elphaba, and as played by a quietly commanding Cynthia Erivo, she's brave, brilliant, and grievously misunderstood, mainly on account of her green skin.

00:30:25 Speaker_09
Much of the movie takes place at a school of sorcery, basically Hogwarts with munchkins, where Elphaba impresses the powerful headmistress, an imperious Michelle Yeoh.

00:30:36 Speaker_09
It's here that Elphaba becomes rivals with a smug queen bee named Galinda, the future good witch of the North. She's played with delightful comic brio by the pop superstar Ariana Grande. But in time, the two become genuine friends.

00:30:52 Speaker_09
In this scene, set to one of Stephen Schwartz's better musical numbers, Galinda decides to give Elphaba a makeover.

00:30:59 Speaker_04
popular you're gonna be popular i'll teach you the proper boys when you talk to boys the way i'll show you what shoes to wear how to fix your hair everything that really counts to be popular I'll help you be popular.

00:31:20 Speaker_04
You'll hang with the right cohorts. You'll be good at sports. Know the slang you've got to know. So let's start, cause you've got an awfully long way to go.

00:31:33 Speaker_09
Wicked handles the boarding school comedy with a pleasingly light touch.

00:31:37 Speaker_09
There's also a hint of a romantic triangle involving a handsome prince... ...a very good Jonathan Bailey... ...who, like a lot of things here, foreshadows future Wizard of Oz developments.

00:31:49 Speaker_09
In time, we get Jeff Goldblum, nicely cast as the wizard himself... ...who turns out to be less wonderful than he appears. This sets the stage for Elphaba to harness her full magical strength and become Oz's public enemy number one.

00:32:04 Speaker_09
Wicked, part one, does build to a doozy of a gravity-defying Emerald City climax. But much of the movie is too lumbering, too obvious, and frankly too digitally slick to cast a spell.

00:32:18 Speaker_09
I hate to say this about a movie that teaches us not to judge based on appearances, but I do wish Wicked looked better. Where Oz has winged monkeys, ancient Rome has deranged baboons.

00:32:31 Speaker_09
Early on in Gladiator 2, Lucius, a warrior played by Paul Meskel, must prove his mettle by defeating a very scary Simeon in the Colosseum arena. Sixteen years have passed since the events of the first Gladiator.

00:32:47 Speaker_09
And like that movie's slain hero, Maximus, indelibly played by Russell Crowe... Lucius is a prisoner, scarred by personal tragedy and bent on revenge. His hatred, though, isn't just aimed at one person.

00:33:01 Speaker_09
Lucius wants to burn the whole rotten empire to the ground.

00:33:06 Speaker_09
The director Ridley Scott has reunited with some of his key collaborators from that first film, including the actor Connie Nielsen, making a regal return as Lucilla, daughter of Marcus Aurelius. Most of the cast, however, is new.

00:33:21 Speaker_09
Pedro Pascal plays a formidable general with whom Lucius has a score to settle, while Joseph Quinn and Fred Heshinger romp up a storm as a pair of twin brother tyrants who are driving Rome to ruin.

00:33:34 Speaker_09
And Denzel Washington, unsurprisingly, gets the juiciest role as Macrinus... ...a sly and somewhat inscrutable slave owner who sends Lucius into the arena.

00:33:46 Speaker_09
It's fun to watch Washington go over the top, but his scene-stealing is typical of Gladiator 2 as a whole. It's a lot of flash to very little purpose.

00:33:56 Speaker_09
Meskel, best known for his sensitive, melancholy work in the series Normal People and films like Aftersun, gives an intensely physical performance. But his Lucius never lays claim to your sympathies as commandingly as Maximus did.

00:34:12 Speaker_09
And when the characters start talking laboriously about the downfall of Rome and the hope of a glorious rebirth, the movie rapidly loses steam. It's like watching an extended WWE SmackDown suddenly interrupted by a civics lesson.

00:34:27 Speaker_09
Still, the smackdown itself is pretty satisfying. In Gladiator 2's wildest action sequence, the Coliseum Arena becomes a giant saltwater tank, complete with dueling warships and bloodthirsty sharks.

00:34:43 Speaker_09
It's an utterly outlandish spectacle, but Ridley Scott, who's now 86, doesn't sweat the logistics. The first Gladiator asked, are you not entertained? And in these moments, at least, we are.

00:34:58 Speaker_11
Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed Wicked and Gladiator 2. Coming up, Selena Gomez, who stars in the new film Amelia Perez. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

00:35:13 Speaker_08
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00:36:12 Speaker_11
This is Fresh Air Weekend, I'm Tanya Mosley, and I recently had the chance to check out the movie Amelia Perez, the new Spanish-language musical that stars my guest today, Selena Gomez.

00:36:24 Speaker_11
The film is centered on a lawyer named Rita, played by Zoe Saldana, who is kidnapped and tasked with helping a ruthless Mexican cartel leader secretly undergo gender-affirming surgery to begin a new life as Amelia Perez.

00:36:39 Speaker_11
Selena Gomez plays Jesse Del Monte, the wife of the cartel leader, who knows nothing about her husband's transition and is led to believe that Emilia Perez is a distant cousin.

00:36:51 Speaker_11
The film is almost entirely in Spanish, and Gomez, who grew up speaking it but lost fluency, took lessons to prepare for the role. Here she is singing a stirring performance of Bienvenida, which means welcome.

00:37:07 Speaker_05
A tu país amado, bonita A tu lujosa cárcel primita Donde todo es caro, encantada Y gracias a la familia, bienvenida Sé amable y saluda, querida A tu tía madrona, Emilia A las nuevas custodias, primita De tu jaula dorada, bienvenida

00:37:41 Speaker_11
That's Selena Gomez singing in the new Netflix movie musical, Amelia Perez.

00:37:46 Speaker_11
As an ensemble, Gomez, along with Zoe Saldana and Carla Sofia Gascon, who portrays both Amelia Perez and the cartel leader before she transitions, won the Cannes Film Festival Jury Prize for Best Actress.

00:38:01 Speaker_11
Selena Gomez is an actor, singer, and the founder of the successful cosmetic line Rare Beauty. She began acting in 2002 at 10 years old on the television series Barney and Friends.

00:38:13 Speaker_11
She went on to star in several Disney shows before her breakout role in the series The Wizards of Waverly Place.

00:38:20 Speaker_11
As a musician, she's had 16 consecutive top 40 hits on the Billboard Hot 100, the longest active run of any artist, and she's the most followed woman on Instagram.

00:38:31 Speaker_11
We talked about some of her struggles with such a high level of fame and her diagnosis of lupus and bipolar disorder.

00:38:39 Speaker_11
Gomez was nominated for an Emmy Award for her role in the mystery comedy series Only Murders in the Building alongside Steve Martin and Martin Short. Selena Gomez, welcome to Fresh Air.

00:38:51 Speaker_02
Thank you, that was such a lovely introduction.

00:38:54 Speaker_11
I was wondering, you spent, was it nearly half a year training, preparing for this role, learning Spanish. You actually grew up speaking Spanish until something happened, it took a turn where you weren't speaking it anymore.

00:39:07 Speaker_03
I was fluent when I was seven, and before then, all up until then. But I got my first job at seven, and most of my jobs from that point on were English. And I moved from Texas to California to pursue my dream with Disney. And I, again, just lost it.

00:39:29 Speaker_03
And, you know, and that's that's kind of the case for a lot of people, especially Mexican American, I think. You know, my cousins and people and our lives, it's so dominated by English speaking people, which is fine. But I wish I had had more.

00:39:50 Speaker_03
I wish I just knew a lot more than I do. But I think that's why I try to honor my culture as much as possible from releasing an album in Spanish to, you know, wanting to pursue this movie that I thought would be an incredible challenge.

00:40:06 Speaker_03
I don't think it'll be the last thing I do in Spanish.

00:40:09 Speaker_11
Do you feel more fluent in it now?

00:40:11 Speaker_03
I do. And don't try to talk anything around me because I will know what you're saying if you think that I can't. I just have a hard time responding sometimes to like form the sentence correctly.

00:40:23 Speaker_11
Right, because even though you weren't speaking it, did you feel like you could understand it when you heard other folks speak it?

00:40:29 Speaker_03
Completely. It's also, you know, Spanish is one of the most beautiful languages and the inflections and the melody behind how they speak, it's very telling and it's a very emotional language, I think.

00:40:47 Speaker_11
Let's talk a little bit about the themes in the movie. She's looking for freedom because she's married to this very brutal drug kingpin. And so all the things that go along with that life. She has two children by him.

00:41:04 Speaker_11
It's not explicitly said, but it seems as if maybe she got married when she was very young to him. There's a transformation with your husband from male to female but there's also a transformation of this character.

00:41:19 Speaker_11
She's like a dormant volcano of a wife and we watch her as she goes through and I want to play a clip and this clip I'm about to play It's several years after her husband has had the transition. She thinks he's dead.

00:41:35 Speaker_11
She goes back to Mexico and she connects with a man who really is the love of her life. And in this scene, the two of you, this man, you and this man, you all are in a club and you're singing the song Mi Camino. Let's listen.

00:41:51 Speaker_06
Si me cago en la parranca, es mi parranca Si me doblo de dolor, es mi dolor Si me mando el séptimo cielo, es mi cielo Si me equivoco, te camino igual Cuando salgo mucho de fiesta Cuando me porto Foreign Foreign

00:42:46 Speaker_11
That's my guest Selena Gomez singing the song Mi Camino in the musical film Amelia Perez. OK, Selena, this is a liberation song.

00:42:55 Speaker_03
It is. It's so beautiful. I'm so proud of it.

00:42:58 Speaker_11
The words, I'm going to read a little bit of the words in English. If I fall into the ravine, it's my ravine. If I double the pain, it's my pain. If I send myself to the seventh heaven, it's my heaven. If I lose my way, it's still mine.

00:43:12 Speaker_11
I want to love myself. It's a liberation song, and to me, without being too sappy about it, I feel like it sounds familiar to your life path. Do you see that?

00:43:24 Speaker_03
Yeah actually I do. It was one of the most emotional songs that I got to record during the process of shooting this movie. And I remember just singing it and thinking to myself, this could have been my song. This could have been a

00:43:43 Speaker_03
you know, me song on an album I would put out personally because it's so well said and it feels very true to who I am, to where I am. I think that when I do make mistakes, I don't feel like I should or necessarily need to be punished for them.

00:44:06 Speaker_03
It's something that I feel like I need to grow and learn from.

00:44:11 Speaker_03
And I think that sometimes there's been moments in my career where people weren't allowing me to grow up, weren't allowing me to make choices that, you know, wasn't exactly what they thought I should be doing.

00:44:26 Speaker_11
AMT – Acting, as you said, has always been your first love. We're going to get into some things like I Can't Believe Girl Interrupted is one of the first films you saw. Like what?

00:44:36 Speaker_03
CM – I'm sorry, Mom. CM – Sorry, Mom. Yeah, no, my mom was, um, you know, she was so just, I just remember feeling like she was the coolest person ever. She's still cool. But as a kid, I looked up to her so much.

00:44:53 Speaker_11
But she kind of was. I mean, she was 16 when she had you. So she was a young mom.

00:44:57 Speaker_03
She was a young cool mom. We were like sisters. in a way. And she loved everything about art. And I remember sometimes she would let me watch things, but she would do the old cover your ears and eyes, like be careful. So yeah, she was young.

00:45:18 Speaker_03
Maybe I shouldn't have watched some of the things they did. However, I think I fell in love with it for the right reasons.

00:45:25 Speaker_03
It was a whole range of different styles and we'd watch, you know, French films or we'd watch anything that kind of sparked something in my mom and she would explain things to me and I would always ask questions and I was inquisitive about the work and

00:45:44 Speaker_03
It wasn't just an experience for me. I wanted to know everything. And I think that's where it kind of stemmed from.

00:45:53 Speaker_11
Do you remember the first time you were on stage or first performance?

00:45:58 Speaker_03
Yeah, the funny thing is I wasn't in any school plays necessarily. I was seven when I auditioned for Barney, which is the big purple dinosaur, if people don't remember. But I was in line, it was 1,400 kids, and it was in Texas.

00:46:18 Speaker_03
And I waited in line for a while and I just thought here's my chance. I could do something really cool.

00:46:25 Speaker_11
You thought that in the moment.

00:46:26 Speaker_03
Yeah. I just thought this is something I really want to do and I hope I get it. And I went to three rounds of callbacks. They were very serious about that party back in the day.

00:46:39 Speaker_03
And I got the part and it would have to be the first time I stepped foot on the set of Barney. It was magical. Not to mention I'm seven and they make it for kids. You know, they make it this beautiful experience and the sets are gorgeous.

00:46:58 Speaker_03
And I just got the bug immediately. I had school there as well. A bunch of kids I got to grow up with. And at the same time, maybe Barney taught me how to clean and how to say I love you.

00:47:16 Speaker_11
Right, because you're taking in all the lessons that you all are teaching us too.

00:47:21 Speaker_12
Totally.

00:47:23 Speaker_11
Well, for those who don't watch it, Only Murders in the Building, the Hulu series, is centered on you, Martin Short, and Steve Martin. You guys are a trio of residents in this really beautiful Upper West Side apartment building called the Arconia.

00:47:38 Speaker_11
And you set out to investigate a string of murders in the building and start a true crime podcast to chronicle uh, the investigation. Martin Short has said, like, in all of the interviews, just how much fun you guys have on the set.

00:47:53 Speaker_11
He alludes it to being kind of exceptional in that way. What makes it fun?

00:47:57 Speaker_03
Well, first off, um, Steve Martin and Martin Short are legends in their own right. Yes. And it is very difficult to keep a straight face when you're talking to them about anything because they simply

00:48:15 Speaker_02
exude and radiate comedy. How do you do it? Because you're the straight man of the three.

00:48:21 Speaker_03
I know, but I mean, I just have to, I gotta get through it. You know, once we do the table read and they'll chime in, it's, it is challenging. But I think the best part of Only Murders is the environment.

00:48:37 Speaker_03
And I think that's what Marty is referring to because These two actors who have been working longer than I've been alive are always on time, could not be more compassionate and kind to everyone, class act intelligence, their humor is smart and wise.

00:49:00 Speaker_03
And they'll sit down and talk to our camera guy and ask how his daughter's doing. It just to me was a very good place for me to start back into acting. It just was safe and it was so fun and they made it feel like it was home.

00:49:22 Speaker_03
How did the role come about for you? So Steve came up with the idea himself, not about me. He originally wanted the show to be three comedians, three guys.

00:49:35 Speaker_03
And John Hoffman came in, who's the co-creator, and said, I have this idea, this maybe unconventional, you know, relationship or friendship that these, you know, people care about. So what if we had, you know, like a 28-year-old and

00:49:52 Speaker_03
Steve, you know was like, well, let me know your ideas or whatever, you know, you're thinking and John got on a call with me and I I had told him how much I You know will watch 48 hours or with my mom I'd watch, you know forensic files.

00:50:12 Speaker_03
I think it was music to his ears and he was very genuine and sweet and after the call they offered me the part.

00:50:24 Speaker_11
I want to play a clip from season one. So you all live in the same apartment and you don't really know each other that well but you're starting to come into this idea that something really fishy is happening.

00:50:38 Speaker_11
Here, your character, Mabel, is joining the two others in Oliver's apartment, and Oliver is played by Martin Short, and Charles is played by Steve Martin. Let's listen.

00:50:48 Speaker_14
Oh, how did you get here?

00:50:50 Speaker_03
It was open.

00:50:51 Speaker_14
I don't lock my door. Never have.

00:50:53 Speaker_11
That's insane.

00:50:53 Speaker_03
It's neighborly. I mean, a murderer probably lives in the building, but I guess old white guys are only afraid of colon cancer and societal change. Sad.

00:51:03 Speaker_10
A murderer doesn't probably live in the building. A murderer definitely lives in the building. Lester checked all the security footage, and no one unknown to him came in or out during the hours around Tim's murder. Isn't that great for the podcast?

00:51:14 Speaker_10
So, Mabel, tell us. Did you learn anything from the online world of Tim Kono?

00:51:20 Speaker_03
He didn't post much on his online world. He seems to have had a really sad, quiet life.

00:51:26 Speaker_10
You checked all the websites.

00:51:28 Speaker_03
Yep, all the websites.

00:51:30 Speaker_10
Well, we've exhausted the internet.

00:51:35 Speaker_11
That's my guest Selena Gomez with Martin Short and Steve Martin in the very popular Hulu series Only Murders in the Building. Selena, there's such a tenderness to your relationships with those guys. that seems like it's only grown over the seasons.

00:51:52 Speaker_11
I was watching, I think I saw you and Martin Short on a TV show recently, and you were showing him how to put on makeup from your rear beauty line, and it felt natural and connected, like you all are your friends.

00:52:05 Speaker_03
Yes, and it's an absolute joy. They'll joke and laugh and say, oh, we didn't know what to expect when we met Selena. But I don't know, by the first week of us working together, they really took me under their wing.

00:52:23 Speaker_03
They didn't make me feel separate because I was younger. They made me feel incredibly included. If they would change a joke or want to try something different, they would always incorporate me into the conversation. And they respected me.

00:52:39 Speaker_03
And I felt safe. These are gentlemen that want nothing from me but to have a great experience at work and create bonds with everybody on set. And they disarm people by their kindness.

00:52:57 Speaker_03
So yeah, I've done interviews where I've been upset on days of working if I got bad news. They're protective. They listen. They give great advice. That's something I'll cherish. It could have been totally different.

00:53:15 Speaker_03
It could have been, you know, hard to connect, but they are genuinely wonderful people, and it's just been a huge blessing, because I get emotional thinking about it, because I really do love them, and they care about me a lot.

00:53:35 Speaker_11
Selena Gomez, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.

00:53:38 Speaker_03
It's been so nice.

00:53:41 Speaker_11
Selena Gomez stars in the new movie Amelia Perez. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski.

00:53:59 Speaker_11
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lorne Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, and Anna Baumann.

00:54:12 Speaker_11
Our digital media producers are Molly CV Nesper and Sabrina Seward. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.

00:54:20 Speaker_08
This message comes from NPR sponsor Merrill. Whatever your financial goals are, you want a straightforward path there. But the real world doesn't usually work that way. Merrill understands that.

00:54:30 Speaker_08
That's why, with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Go to ml.com slash bullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk.

00:54:43 Speaker_08
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00:54:50 Speaker_08
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