Best Friends Don't Make For the Best Bosses AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Best Friends Don't Make For the Best Bosses) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.
Go to PodExtra AI's podcast page (Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel) to view the AI-processed content of all episodes of this podcast.
Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel episodes list: view full AI transcripts and summaries of this podcast on the blog
Episode: Best Friends Don't Make For the Best Bosses
Author: Esther Perel Global Media
Duration: 00:45:35
Episode Shownotes
They have been best friends for years. He opened a book store and she was his first employee. Things were great until they weren't. She left to preserve the friendship- but a year later they still haven’t talked about what went wrong with them professionally. Esther talks to her about
how to start a different kind of business relationship if they were willing to give this another go. This is a special episode of How's Work?, a one-time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. It was edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Esther’s two new courses on desire are now available inside The Desire Bundle. Go to https://www.estherperel.com/course-bundles/the-desire-bundle to learn more about Bringing Desire Back and Playing with Desire. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Summary
In this episode of "Where Should We Begin?" with Esther Perel, a woman reflects on her tangled friendship and professional relationship with her best friend, who owns a bookstore. Initially thriving, their relationship soured due to a lack of communication regarding job performance, leading her to leave the position to salvage their friendship. The conversation emphasizes the need for candid discussions and clear boundaries to navigate the complexities of intertwining personal and professional relationships, as unresolved issues linger, challenging both their friendship and work dynamics.
Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (Best Friends Don't Make For the Best Bosses) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.
Full Transcript
00:00:00 Speaker_03
Welcome, welcome. Thank you. Shall we listen together to the question that you send and then if there's anything you want to edit we can do so too, okay? Okay. Yeah, let's go.
00:00:14 Speaker_05
My friend, who I've known since elementary school, decided to open a bookstore in 2019 and asked if I would work with him. And I said yes, and so we opened this bookstore together, and it was going really well.
00:00:29 Speaker_05
He was the owner and the manager and my boss, but it was really just the two of us there for a long time. But things eventually started to feel hard between us.
00:00:41 Speaker_05
He, as I mentioned, was my boss, but he was also my really good friend, and we didn't have any systems in place to talk about job performance or anything like that.
00:00:50 Speaker_05
So from my perspective, it just felt like he would randomly make kind of snippy comments about things he didn't like that I was
00:00:58 Speaker_05
doing or that I could do better and then I would get defensive and then it would feel tense for a while between us and that was escalating and eventually after a couple of pretty big altercations between us where I was yelling and then he was
00:01:13 Speaker_05
like, mad at me about that, I decided it was in my best interest to leave. And in both of our best interests, really, so that we could stay friends. So I left, I got a new job, and we are still friends. And I still go and work there sometimes.
00:01:30 Speaker_05
But I'm really sad that it didn't work out. And he's really sad that it didn't work out. And I miss working there. I think I was really good at it.
00:01:42 Speaker_05
And I'm just wondering if there's any scenario, a future scenario, where it could be better there between us.
00:01:58 Speaker_00
Support for this show comes from Amazon Prime. However you plan to make the most of the holiday season, you can do it with Amazon Prime.
00:02:05 Speaker_00
Whether it's last minute ingredients and stocking stuffers, or a themed puzzle to solve with the family, get fast free delivery on Holiday Essentials with Prime.
00:02:15 Speaker_00
And with Prime Video, you can curl up on the couch, warm drinks in hand, and have a holiday movie marathon. Throughout it all, you can tune into classic holiday playlists on Amazon Music.
00:02:25 Speaker_00
Whatever you're into this holiday season, from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to get more out of whatever you're into.
00:02:49 Speaker_03
Good, that's a clear question. And anything you want to add? change?
00:02:56 Speaker_05
I guess just that I submitted this question a few months ago and then sort of just reconciled to the fact that, you know, it is what it is. I have this new job and things happen the way they were supposed to happen.
00:03:13 Speaker_05
And so now, I don't know, it's just a little bit further in the past than when I first
00:03:21 Speaker_03
Tell me about, there's many ways I could start this, but just to get a little bit more context, how is your relationship or your friendship with him now?
00:03:35 Speaker_05
I think it's okay. I think that we were able to talk a little bit after I left about how we were both sad, but I think that there are things that neither of us will say to each other. You know, I haven't said
00:03:56 Speaker_05
I left because I thought you were kind of being a jerk. You know, I haven't said those words. So I think that there are definitely things unsaid, but in general, we're in a good place and we love each other and we have no ongoing conflict.
00:04:10 Speaker_03
Okay. Have you had an actual debriefing conversation? What worked? What are things that we overlooked? What are things that we didn't communicate about well? What are KPIs that we may have missed?
00:04:30 Speaker_03
How did we let the blending of the friendship and the liking and the feelings enter into a conversation that then could not address issues of competence and performance and outcomes and goals?
00:04:44 Speaker_03
Have you had that kind of, not just, you don't tell your boss he's a jerk.
00:04:51 Speaker_04
No, no, no.
00:04:52 Speaker_03
And he was your boss. So, and that does not very, that doesn't say much. It just means you didn't like what he had to say. Of course. Have you had a professional off-boarding conversation?
00:05:07 Speaker_05
No, I would say we haven't. I think we tried to do something like that, but I think To hear you say the word professional was striking to me because I don't think we ever figured out what our professional relationship was. And so, right.
00:05:27 Speaker_05
And so it could, yeah. So we've talked about it more as friends than as colleagues or coworkers or professionals.
00:05:38 Speaker_03
You remind me of an episode that I did with three men who had been playing together since they were young children, and that play turned into a production company. And they too struggled with the kind of formalizing of expectations
00:05:58 Speaker_03
of boundaries, of accountability, of communication flow, of initiatives, you know, things that are not necessarily defined in a relationship, even though they are often implied in a friendship, but they're not made explicit.
00:06:15 Speaker_03
And if you ask me, do you think there's a chance this could ever happen again, that I could work with him? I would say, yes, potentially, but it requires this transition. Yeah. I was not very professional. I became defensive.
00:06:34 Speaker_03
I thought, you know, if we like each other, we should overlook these things. I didn't really like the sudden shift in power dynamic. And now you get to evaluate me. And I don't get to tell you what I really think because you are my boss.
00:06:51 Speaker_03
And all these things that muddled That needs to be formalized and clarified if you ever want to have a professional relationship with a friend. That's the combination. You're trying to integrate these two. But it is an integration of two things.
00:07:13 Speaker_03
It's not just two friends working together.
00:07:17 Speaker_05
Yeah, I mean, I hear about couples who have businesses together and I really just can't even understand how that could possibly happen.
00:07:28 Speaker_05
And I do think there's probably some resentment on my part because since he was the leader, the boss, I think I was waiting for him to do some things like establish some job performance systems, you know, stuff like that, that never happened.
00:07:49 Speaker_05
And maybe I use that as an excuse to not rise to a more professional level. And does he do it now?
00:08:00 Speaker_03
Not that I know of. With the next person?
00:08:03 Speaker_05
Well, he's been very slow to hire new people. He hasn't really replaced me. He's just sort of drowning there at the bookstore by himself, but he has a few part-time people. And to my knowledge, no, he hasn't.
00:08:19 Speaker_03
Okay. So if you came to him and you said, I want to take accountability for my part. I kind of left it up to you. I, since you didn't come, I didn't push, you know, this kind of, I wait till you wait till I wait.
00:08:38 Speaker_03
And I think we have a lot that we can learn from this. Should we sit down And just to do a debrief together, we can see if there's ever an opportunity to try this again.
00:08:55 Speaker_03
I think it's a very interesting thing to rehire people that we had let go or that left. It can work very well. I've done it. But it demands a clarification of the
00:09:07 Speaker_03
you know, defining the relationship, the terms of the relationship, a clear set of expectations, and a willingness to be very professional and not to try to diffuse the professional because we are friends, which I think is what I'm hearing you say.
00:09:26 Speaker_05
Yeah. I think I don't really know how to do that. I think I don't really know how to be professional with my friends. I don't know. Tell me about you in the new job. Well, I work at a school now. I'm professional there for sure. But I don't know.
00:09:52 Speaker_05
You know, it's what does that mean?
00:09:54 Speaker_03
I'm professional. Yeah. What is being professional for you?
00:09:58 Speaker_05
Yeah, it means it means I guess it means I'm always focused on on the work and why I'm there. and acknowledging the hierarchies that exist in my place of employment. Yeah. You show up? Yes, right. I show up on time. I stay until I'm supposed to leave.
00:10:25 Speaker_05
Yeah, I do all those things. I did that at the bookstore too, but yeah.
00:10:30 Speaker_03
Okay. So where would you say were your lags in the bookstore? Where were the leakages?
00:10:39 Speaker_05
I think the power dynamic was a struggle for me. I think I didn't feel, I wasn't sure how much freedom I had to be creative and share my own thoughts and ideas and where I was meant to just sort of do as I was told.
00:11:03 Speaker_03
And is that a question that you ever were able to bring to him? Did you have regular meetings set in the calendar where you looked at things from inventory to work culture, to store culture, to?
00:11:18 Speaker_05
We didn't have regular meetings because it was just the two of us. So all of our conversations were just, you know, folded into while we were both
00:11:29 Speaker_03
Just standing there.
00:11:30 Speaker_05
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
00:11:34 Speaker_03
And this question, in the course of this in-between conversations, were you able to ask him? Is there an opportunity for me to share some of my ideas? I have some thoughts about how we could do this. I'm trying to think.
00:11:53 Speaker_05
I don't know. I'm not sure how to answer that. I think I feel intimidated by him. He's very smart. He's like one of the smartest people I've ever met. And I think sometimes I just defer to him and then he was my boss. So I defer to him.
00:12:11 Speaker_05
And sometimes I would have ideas that not in a mean way, but that he would sort of pivot away from and just end up doing his own idea instead. And so I think I just got the message or interpreted some message that maybe my ideas weren't so valued.
00:12:46 Speaker_03
We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.
00:12:59 Speaker_00
Support for this show comes from Amazon Prime. However you plan to make the most of the holiday season, you can do it with Amazon Prime.
00:13:07 Speaker_00
Whether it's last minute ingredients and stocking stuffers, or a themed puzzle to solve with the family, get fast free delivery on Holiday Essentials with Prime.
00:13:16 Speaker_00
And with Prime Video, you can curl up on the couch, warm drinks in hand, and have a holiday movie marathon. Throughout it all, you can tune into classic holiday playlists on Amazon Music.
00:13:27 Speaker_00
Whatever you're into this holiday season, from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to get more out of whatever you're into.
00:13:40 Speaker_03
Imagine that you have an opportunity to meet him and to just start a conversation. You know, I was talking to this lady on her podcast. And the reason I brought this up with her was, what would you say?
00:14:05 Speaker_05
I would say I brought it up because I wish things had gone differently. I wish we could have figured out how to be friends and work together. And I don't think we ever figured that out.
00:14:29 Speaker_03
And that was really sad and a disappointment to me.
00:14:35 Speaker_05
It was very sad and it was sad to him too. I mean, it was very clearly sad. He was very sad when I left and very surprised when I told him I was leaving.
00:14:46 Speaker_03
So he may not even know half of what went through your head. So as I was talking to her, I thought we really need more conversations about this. It's a pity. We've known each other our whole life. If we can't have this conversation. Who can?
00:15:10 Speaker_03
So here are things that I've been thinking about that I really would like just to think out loud with you.
00:15:18 Speaker_03
And I would love to listen for you to talk to me as well, because I think there may have been many misunderstandings, many unspoken moments, many things left on the cutting room floor.
00:15:33 Speaker_03
And here we are a little bit dazzled that this thing just unraveling like this. and neither of us have actually really done a post-mortem. So I told this woman, Esther Perel is her name,
00:15:51 Speaker_04
Well, we have your book at our bookstore, so he knows you. Right.
00:15:55 Speaker_03
Remember that woman and the book? Okay, so I went to talk to her, and here are the things that stood out for me that I realized that I have not really had an opportunity to share with you.
00:16:13 Speaker_05
And it's my turn?
00:16:14 Speaker_03
Yeah.
00:16:15 Speaker_05
You got it. that I never figured out how to be a professional with you, that I never quite figured out our roles, our boundaries, how our relationship needed to evolve to be a healthy working relationship.
00:16:53 Speaker_05
So consequently, when you tried to talk to me about things that you wanted me to work on, it felt like my friend criticizing me and I felt defensive and didn't act my best.
00:17:14 Speaker_03
When I did what?
00:17:16 Speaker_05
When I snapped at you when I got mad at you for giving me instructions.
00:17:35 Speaker_03
I'm gonna role play him. Did you hope that when you said I'm leaving that I would beg you to stay? And put our friendship above our collaboration and run after you?
00:17:54 Speaker_05
I was hoping that you would try and figure it out with me, that we could figure it out together, how to make it work. I wasn't playing a game. I wasn't like saying, I'm leaving and hoping that you would like talk me out of leaving.
00:18:16 Speaker_05
It wasn't that, but I was, I did somewhere hope that it would be the impetus for change between us.
00:18:29 Speaker_03
But you didn't come to me saying, we need to talk, this isn't working out very well, we can do better.
00:18:36 Speaker_05
No.
00:18:39 Speaker_03
You had a fit and then you told me, I think I should go. That was your dramatic exit. And I don't like to force people to do things they don't want to do. So you didn't give me a sense that you wanted to work something out.
00:19:04 Speaker_03
You gave me a sense that you are upset. Hot or cold?
00:19:12 Speaker_05
So here's what I did. After I, this sort of last instance, when he snapped at me about something. And it was Black Friday. It was a stressful day anyway, you know, so I give him that. But I blew up. I got very angry.
00:19:35 Speaker_05
And I, a couple of days later, came to him and apologized. And I said, I should not have spoken to you that way. I was very stressed out. You know, I like sort of took responsibility for my part of it.
00:19:53 Speaker_05
And he didn't really say much, like he didn't, I don't know, I just got the impression that it wasn't gonna be possible for us to have in-depth conversations like I wanted to.
00:20:15 Speaker_05
based on his response to my apology, he just sort of like doubled down on his initial complaint. And so that is when I thought, I don't think things can change. I think I should leave. I didn't say it right then.
00:20:35 Speaker_03
So he reminded you why he had snapped rather than showing you appreciation for your taking responsibility. And what did that represent for you?
00:20:52 Speaker_05
I wasn't looking for appreciation, but I was looking for him to say something about, you know, maybe I shouldn't have said
00:21:04 Speaker_05
said that in the way I said it, or perhaps, like, we could have talked about it at a different time, or, you know, just some acknowledgement that, like, the communication between us on both of our parts was not excellent.
00:21:19 Speaker_05
And when he just didn't even, it didn't even seem that he could see that, I kind of lost hope.
00:21:29 Speaker_03
But you know this man your whole life. Is this the first time you have a
00:21:36 Speaker_03
misunderstanding, a skirmish, a moment when you do something that you think is for the benefit of the relationship, and you feel that he's talking for the benefit of the point he's trying to make, rather than protecting the relationship?
00:21:52 Speaker_05
I think we had never had an opportunity to really have a skirmish like that, where we both were so invested in something.
00:22:05 Speaker_03
In being right. Yeah. In being right. When two people are invested in being right, then what? Yeah. Finish the sentence.
00:22:20 Speaker_05
It's, I don't know, someone has to, someone has to say I was wrong or someone has to, I mean, both people can't be right. I guess. I don't know. I don't know the answer.
00:22:38 Speaker_03
What made you think, when he continued to say why he thought he was justified in being upset or bad, what made you give up like this?
00:22:53 Speaker_03
You could have, you know, I know this guy, I know how he gets, or it's not worth it, our relationship is more important, or what happened? What parts of each of you got uncovered there that it became so reactive?
00:23:11 Speaker_05
Yeah, I think he is not that willing to talk about his inner life. And it's weird because the way I responded to him when he would tell me things was not the way I would respond to someone who I hadn't known for 30 years.
00:23:32 Speaker_05
I would not have snapped at someone who was only my boss, not my friend. And so then the repair I had to do with him was also not the kind of conversations I would typically have with someone who I only had a work relationship with.
00:23:53 Speaker_05
So I had never had such intimate conversations with him. And his stubbornness, his the wall he put up, I just, I didn't see how, how it could work.
00:24:13 Speaker_05
I just couldn't imagine a scenario where we could go forward and the wall would be down and we would act like professionals, but we could still be friends. Like, I just couldn't figure out how that could be possible.
00:24:28 Speaker_05
And so I thought, I think, and I didn't think he was ever going to fire me. So I thought, I have, I think I have to leave. Like, it's just, it's not gonna get better.
00:24:43 Speaker_03
And none of that has been part of the conversation yet. That is not a conversation that you have had even ever since. Correct? That's correct.
00:24:53 Speaker_05
Yep, that's correct.
00:24:54 Speaker_03
See, that's the conversation I imagine. I mean, part of what you're talking about, and especially when you say my reaction to him was
00:25:05 Speaker_03
sat on top of the fact that we know each other our whole life, I wouldn't react this way to someone I know less and that is actually, in a more formal way, my boss. Many of us wonder, can you work with your life partner?
00:25:22 Speaker_03
What is the essence of family business? What's it like when two close friends join forces? and start working together. And they suddenly realize that co-parenting the store brings out many differences between them.
00:25:38 Speaker_03
How do we struggle superposing different relationships that have different rules and different frameworks? It's a real challenge and an act of, it's an act of creativity and it demands tremendous communication skills.
00:25:56 Speaker_03
I think all work relationships do, but there is something even more unique when you have an overlap. You know, one minute it's, you know, I talk with you about some very personal things, the next minute, you know, you're evaluating my returns.
00:26:15 Speaker_03
So lots of us want to know, how do we do this? But what's interesting is that you used your familiarity to allow yourself to react strongly, but you didn't use your familiarity to actually have the difficult conversations.
00:26:39 Speaker_03
And when I say familiarity, I mean the level of trust, the reliance on the solidity of the relationship, suddenly you acted as if this relationship is uber fragile.
00:26:51 Speaker_05
Yeah.
00:26:54 Speaker_03
I am curious about that.
00:26:57 Speaker_05
I think I did try to use my familiarity to have conversations with him. But in retrospect, I don't think I did it in a way that was productive or, I mean, it didn't lead to the outcome that I was hoping for.
00:27:22 Speaker_03
For example?
00:27:25 Speaker_05
For example, him saying, this is hard. This is hard to be friends and to be a boss and employee. This is, we're going to need to come up with some rules or some boundaries or go to therapy or take a course, or I don't know.
00:27:44 Speaker_05
I mean, I really don't know, but like just some acknowledgement that things can't keep going the way they're going. Because I didn't know a way forward. This is all so new to me. And so we learned about selling books, but we didn't learn about this.
00:28:08 Speaker_03
Yep. And if he was here today, what do you think he'd say right now?
00:28:16 Speaker_05
I think he would say that he's sad that I don't work there. I think he would say that he never could figure out how to talk to me in a way that was productive about performance stuff, like in a way that would lead to meaningful change.
00:28:40 Speaker_05
And I think he would probably say.
00:28:42 Speaker_03
So he was more focused on criticizing than improving. He would tell you what was not right or what he didn't agree with or didn't like, but he wouldn't tell you, I expect this. You have that many days to do that.
00:28:58 Speaker_03
This should be the result that we're hoping for and setting projections and goals.
00:29:05 Speaker_05
Yeah. And then I think he would probably say something self-deprecating, like that he was a bad boss or something, because he has a lot of negative self-talk, I think.
00:29:24 Speaker_03
We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.
00:29:34 Speaker_07
Support for this show comes from the ACLU. The ACLU knows exactly what threats a second Donald Trump term presents, and they are ready with a battle-tested playbook. The ACLU took legal action against the first Trump administration 434 times.
00:29:51 Speaker_07
And they will do it again to protect immigrants' rights, defend reproductive freedom, safeguard free speech, and fight for all of our fundamental rights and freedoms. Join the ACLU today to help stop the Extreme Project 2025 agenda.
00:30:05 Speaker_07
Learn more at ACLU.org.
00:30:12 Speaker_03
Do you think you're going to use this conversation as a springboard to actually finally have the chat you've never had with him?
00:30:21 Speaker_05
Yeah, I think it would be a real waste if I didn't. That's right. So, yeah, I think I will. And I don't, I don't know what, I don't know what my goal is though.
00:30:35 Speaker_05
Like at this point, you know, when I, when I wrote the question, I really wanted to work there again. Like I wanted to figure it out so that I could work there again.
00:30:45 Speaker_05
And now I feel a little bit less clear that that's what I want, but I, I think regardless, I, we should still have the conversation.
00:30:55 Speaker_03
In order to?
00:31:02 Speaker_05
in order to be better people, in order to learn from things like this.
00:31:10 Speaker_05
I mean, I just think having hard conversations with people, like I've learned so much from having hard conversations with people that I thought I'm gonna die if I have this conversation. And then I had the conversation and I didn't die.
00:31:23 Speaker_05
And so I think just being able to talk to someone who you're close to is, an important skill.
00:31:36 Speaker_03
And maybe that's how you want to start a conversation. I'd love for us to learn from our collaboration, each of us for our own future and wherever we go from here, but also in our friendship, in our relationship. When you started, what did you imagine?
00:32:02 Speaker_03
And what are the things that you felt actually flowed nicely? And what are the things that you feel really became hurdles? And what did you wish you had done differently? And what did you wish I had done differently?
00:32:21 Speaker_03
And what have you done differently since because you've actually learned something? And I think your line about we learn a lot about selling books.
00:32:31 Speaker_03
We didn't really learn much about being in a way co-founders of the bookstore and to nurture the relationship that was needed in order for the bookstore to continue to grow and establish itself.
00:32:47 Speaker_03
You know, the conversation at some point can include, have you ever thought that we could fix this? Did you think it was defunct? Do you think it was moot? Or did you actually think we could fix it?
00:33:02 Speaker_03
Did you think you would never fire me because you didn't have the guts to? Or did you actually think this should be able to work? I just don't know how to do it.
00:33:13 Speaker_03
You know, if you're my friend and I know you well and you know me well, I shouldn't have to tell you what to do because if you know me that well, you should know it.
00:33:22 Speaker_03
That's one of the things that often happens is that we presume the deep inner knowledge that we have as friends and we transport it into the workplace and it doesn't work like that.
00:33:34 Speaker_05
Yeah. And I also think starting a small business, running your own small business is so hard and stressful and isolating. And he was going through all of that at the same time, not to mention COVID.
00:33:51 Speaker_05
So all of these things were happening during the first few years of the bookstore. And I think that there was just a lot of naivete on both of our parts about what it would take, like spiritually, emotionally and spiritually to do this work together.
00:34:11 Speaker_03
The conversation will be a lot more useful if you don't do it as a blame session. But if each person basically looks at themselves and looks at the other and says, I wish we had, I would have loved to if.
00:34:30 Speaker_03
It's a very different conversation than you never did, you didn't tell me, you did this, you did that. As a rule, I think sometimes Between friends, it's the same thing. Between partners, between colleagues, you know, you can have a breach.
00:34:50 Speaker_03
And then at some point, people work their way back into a different collaboration that is much better. So I don't think one's gone, gone forever.
00:35:04 Speaker_03
as a rule, sometimes, but sometimes there's something very interesting by having created the cut that allows people to actually reflect back on what happened here, why did this totally derail, what was our naivety, what have we learned?
00:35:22 Speaker_03
And then from there, it's not the same conversation. between should we do it again or what happened. First one is a clearing of the slate.
00:35:35 Speaker_03
And it would be a lovely thing, actually, if you use this session, our conversation, and you say, I would love for us to listen to it together and use that to start the conversation that we haven't had.
00:35:50 Speaker_03
Becomes like a transitional object, you know, that you put in the middle. We both listen to it and we start this chat.
00:36:02 Speaker_05
Yeah.
00:36:03 Speaker_03
How is this?
00:36:06 Speaker_05
So it's great in theory. I don't really know what steps to take next, like to say, hey, do you want to go for a beer, like, I don't know, you know, like sort of that, like how to get to the point where we're talking about this.
00:36:29 Speaker_03
Like logistics, you know? What's happened to us has been on my mind. I don't know if you think about it often, but I do. And so I reached out to Esther Perel. I thought, you know, why not, basically?
00:36:49 Speaker_03
I reached out a while back, so it was interesting to suddenly revisit it now. And I would love for you to listen to my conversation with her and for us to use this as a springboard into a clearing of the slate together. Would you be open to that?
00:37:11 Speaker_03
I think we kind of left a lot of things hanging. We have a lot of things unspoken between us. I think both of us care deeply about our friendship and we don't want it to suffer.
00:37:23 Speaker_03
But at the same time, I think if we really trust our relationship, then we need to trust that it's solid enough that it can really tackle this experiment that we had together and help each other understand the other side.
00:37:40 Speaker_03
I think we probably have a good idea of our own side, but it's not clear that we have a good sense of what happened on the other side. You know, if you say no, it's totally fine by me.
00:37:51 Speaker_03
I mean, I know you're a guy who doesn't particularly like to go and delve deep into your, you know.
00:37:56 Speaker_03
But I also think that it's a good thing to do an off-boarding like that, a kind of a summarizing of what happened here, because I think we stand to learn a lot together. So I brought you this tape. Here's the link for that matter. Listen to it.
00:38:16 Speaker_03
And here are my three questions for you. And I'd love for you to come back and you start next time with your three questions for me. So what would be your three questions?
00:38:29 Speaker_05
Oh boy. Okay. What Will you critique them after I say that? I'm asking seriously, because I don't know that these are the right ones.
00:38:42 Speaker_03
What... They can change. It's really... I actually think that they can be the broader ones, you know? What are the things that you think actually worked really well? Because we could start with everything that didn't work.
00:38:57 Speaker_03
But is that the best way to start? There are a lot of things that worked quite well. How long did you work with him?
00:39:03 Speaker_05
Four years.
00:39:04 Speaker_03
Okay, that's a chunk. That is a chunk. It's not like you stay there four months. I had no sense it was that long. See, in the four years, I mean, we overcame a lot of things. We actually learned a ton of things.
00:39:17 Speaker_03
I mean, God, opening a bookstore, it's not like, you know, an easy, easy thing to do. So maybe we start with what we did well, and then we continue with what we think we could have done better.
00:39:32 Speaker_03
And then we continue with what we think we really flunked at.
00:39:38 Speaker_05
Yeah.
00:39:39 Speaker_03
You know?
00:39:40 Speaker_05
I like that. I really like starting with what we did well.
00:39:44 Speaker_03
Yeah. Four years, you know? And what of what we did is still present in the way that the things that the stories run. You know, how much did the launch really solidify the existence of this store? We launched it together.
00:40:01 Speaker_03
Those are not questions about what did you feel when you said this. We're not going into that zone at all. It may unfold there, but that's not where you start. The store is in the middle of the discussion. The store was our project.
00:40:19 Speaker_03
The store is what we co-parented and co-founded. And we start by talking about our contributions to the store. and the store was a dream for each of us, so it's our contribution to our shared dream.
00:40:37 Speaker_03
If we were to write a book about the story of two people with a long friendship who want to build a bookstore together, How would we start the story, right? You came on a day. I was honored that you asked me. It really touched me.
00:40:57 Speaker_03
And I had tremendous hope that this would work, that this would succeed. I think you're one of the brightest guys I know. And from here you continue. It's a lot of what you've already told me, by the way.
00:41:10 Speaker_05
Yeah, I can do that.
00:41:12 Speaker_03
But the recording of our conversation is part of being a stress diffuser. Because he will already have heard a part of it. And then you basically, now that you heard it, let me say it in person.
00:41:28 Speaker_05
Yeah. I hope I didn't say anything that was, I don't know, offensive to him.
00:41:38 Speaker_03
I haven't heard anything that was offensive. I heard maybe things that he may say, that's not how I see myself, but that's okay. Otherwise he'd be standing in front of a mirror rather than in front of another person. They see other things than we see.
00:41:56 Speaker_03
So I don't know the person, but I didn't hear anything that was in any form blatantly aggressive, hostile at all.
00:42:08 Speaker_05
Okay, good.
00:42:11 Speaker_03
But you will listen to it again first. And if you do find something there, you'll say, there may be things that I, as I hear them, I'm not so sure that that's all I think.
00:42:22 Speaker_03
I said it then, but there are other thoughts that I, you know, this is one conversation. You're saying certain things to me today. You could say very different things to me another time. You're not defined by these words.
00:42:34 Speaker_03
Neither is your friendship defined by this narration of the story of your friendship and your professional collaboration. Yeah. Anything else you want to say or ask?
00:42:49 Speaker_05
I don't think so.
00:42:51 Speaker_03
Glad you did it or wished we had never found you?
00:42:55 Speaker_04
No, so glad. I'm so glad.
00:42:58 Speaker_05
Yeah, for sure. And I think I'm certainly not the only person who's trying to have a professional relationship with someone that they love.
00:43:12 Speaker_03
Absolutely.
00:43:13 Speaker_05
Yeah.
00:43:14 Speaker_03
Absolutely. It really is filled with good intentions and so easy sometimes to lose the ability to marry these two relationships. So thank you very much.
00:43:44 Speaker_06
This was an Estair calling, a one-time intervention phone call. recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call.
00:43:57 Speaker_06
Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.
00:44:10 Speaker_06
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Atton.
00:44:23 Speaker_06
Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
00:44:45 Speaker_02
Support for this podcast comes from Stripe. Stripe is a payments and billing platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like Uber, BMW, and DoorDash.
00:44:55 Speaker_02
Stripe has helped countless startups and established companies alike reach their growth targets, make progress on their missions, and reach more customers globally.
00:45:03 Speaker_02
The platform offers a suite of specialized features and tools to fast-track growth, like Stripe Billing, which makes it easy to handle subscription-based charges, invoicing, and all recurring revenue management needs.
00:45:14 Speaker_02
You can learn how Stripe helps companies of all sizes make progress at stripe.com. That's stripe.com to learn more. Stripe, make progress.