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Episode: Ask Us Anything — Forgiveness, The Manosphere, Parasocial Relationships & More

Author: Vox Media Podcast Network
Duration: 01:01:06

Episode Shownotes

Scott and Ed answer listener-submitted questions about everything from the origins of Ed’s accent to how they feel about parasocial relationships. They address why they look similar, talk about how to maintain friendships and give tips for improving storytelling. Plus, Ed discusses how he figured out his long-term goals and

Scott reveals how much he paid for his birthday party. Order "The Algebra of Wealth," out now Subscribe to No Mercy / No Malice Follow the podcast across socials @profgpod: Instagram Threads X Reddit Follow Scott on Instagram Follow Ed on Instagram and X Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Full Transcript

00:00:00 Speaker_03
Today's number, 22%. That's how much Bible sales grew this year in contrast to the overall book market that barely grew 1%. True story, Ed, sometimes I masturbate while reading the Bible. I call it my come-to-Jesus moment. Welcome to Prop G Markets.

00:00:25 Speaker_03
Today, oh wait, today we're doing something different. What's going on today, Ed?

00:00:29 Speaker_02
Today we're doing an Ask Me Anything episode, Scott, and we've got our producer, Claire, back in the studio. and she's gonna be asking us some listener questions from Instagram and Reddit and YouTube.

00:00:40 Speaker_02
So thank you to everyone who sent in those questions. Claire, welcome back to the studio.

00:00:45 Speaker_05
Very nice to be here, thank you. Scott, are you ready for your first question?

00:00:49 Speaker_03
Lay it on me! We haven't seen these yet.

00:00:51 Speaker_05
All right, this is the most popular question on Reddit. The people are dying to know, how much did your birthday party cost?

00:01:02 Speaker_03
I think it cost about a quarter of a million dollars.

00:01:07 Speaker_02
Give us a breakdown.

00:01:08 Speaker_03
Well, we took over a hotel, the five farms, we reserved it two years before. I think that the honest answer is I don't really know, but I imagine that it was like 45 or 50 rooms. We had it for two nights.

00:01:22 Speaker_03
I don't know, that was probably 100 grand, the food was probably another 50 or 70 grand, plus things like axe throwing and kilt rental and all that shit. Yeah, I'd put it at a quarter of a million bucks. You think that was worth it? Good value?

00:01:35 Speaker_03
Oh, look, to have all your friends in one place and celebrate the passage of time as you sit around and wait for the ask answer.

00:01:43 Speaker_02
Always put it so elegantly.

00:01:44 Speaker_03
You know my approach to this. If you got it, spend it or give it away. I don't, I can't think of a much better way to spend your money than bringing, you know, 95 of your friends together to celebrate me.

00:01:55 Speaker_03
So yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't regret that at all. I thought it was a great way to spend money.

00:02:02 Speaker_05
All right, next question is related. Scott, you frequently reference the friendship crisis among men. What's been the most effective friendship maintenance strategy you've used to maintain close friendships since childhood?

00:02:14 Speaker_03
Well, now it's texting, just little pings. But my go-to is I do a lot of guys trips. I do a lot of trips with friends. And now that I have money, I invite friends with me and I literally share my calendar with everybody and say, let's get together.

00:02:29 Speaker_03
And I take a ton of time. I didn't vacation a lot when I was your age. So now I have a ton of, I purposely, whenever I accept a speaking gig, I stay a day, I get there a day early or stay a day late.

00:02:40 Speaker_03
And so it's a place I wanna be or I don't do it unless it's a lot of money. And I'll try and find a friend who will come meet me or I'll go somewhere and meet them. But I would say trips and texting.

00:02:52 Speaker_05
Ed, next question. Where did your UK accent come from? Genuinely curious. Thank you. I think people are actually confused about this part of your life, including Scott. So let's hear it.

00:03:09 Speaker_02
Scott just doesn't care.

00:03:12 Speaker_05
Let's hear your origin story. Where were you born, where did you grow up, and where did the accent come from?

00:03:18 Speaker_02
Yeah, so I was born and raised in London, so that's where the accent comes from. The weird part is that both my parents are American. And they came to London probably 30 years ago before I was born.

00:03:33 Speaker_02
They moved there for work, but they're both originally from Atlanta, Georgia. So they have American accents, and then me and my sisters all have English accents. People ask me why that is. I don't really know.

00:03:47 Speaker_02
I guess because I went to school from a really young age, and I adopted the same accent as my friends at school. I would assume that's it.

00:03:56 Speaker_02
But I left England when I was 14 to go to boarding school in America, and then I stayed in America for college, and now I'm here.

00:04:06 Speaker_05
Scott, any follow-up questions?

00:04:08 Speaker_03
I'm sorry, I wasn't listening. I fell asleep about a minute ago. Well, let me get this. You have an English accent because you were raised in England. That's right. I think the accent adds 10 perceived IQ points to Ed. What do you think, Claire?

00:04:22 Speaker_05
Well, We all already know that. I do think he's, I think he's putting it on a little bit. Didn't your friends from home, I like it. Didn't your friends from home like kind of tease you when you started to get a bit of an American accent?

00:04:37 Speaker_02
They tease me right now. They think my accent right now is American. Really? They say I have an American twang. So when I go back home, I sound even more English. But yeah, look, it's a hard life, people thinking that I'm a phony, but what can you do?

00:04:51 Speaker_03
My father has a really nice Scottish accent, and you know, kind of the first time you observe nuance when you're a kid, I remember thinking, why do people find my dad so fascinating? Like, what he's saying, it's not that interesting.

00:05:03 Speaker_03
And I figured out it's that accent.

00:05:06 Speaker_02
And Ed, I'm not kidding, you have- This reflects very poorly on me, just so we're clear.

00:05:10 Speaker_03
You gotta lean into every advantage. I lean into, like Brad Pitt, good looks. you Ed literally just spit his goth for that.

00:05:21 Speaker_02
I shouldn't have laughed that hard. Spit take.

00:05:24 Speaker_03
I think you have a fantastic accent. Your accent is, I think it's really strong. What's interesting is my mom did really well in school and she had what felt like a kind of a refined English accent, similar to yours.

00:05:38 Speaker_03
And some of her siblings who went to different schools have just an accent that's not what I would call aspirational. Sometimes it's a little bit hard to listen to. It's just strange how

00:05:48 Speaker_03
And it sets such a tone and they're all really bright, or I find them bright. It's just so interesting how...

00:05:55 Speaker_03
your perception of someone is obviously, supposedly guys, their perception of someone is very visual, and women, their perception of someone is based on their ears. And you immediately, with that accent, come off as very educated and interesting.

00:06:08 Speaker_03
It's a great accent to have. I love this. Let's keep going. Somehow this podcast wouldn't be making any money if you were like, Viva asks a question, Scott, any predictions? It just wouldn't work.

00:06:23 Speaker_05
Okay, I have a related question. Do you think you'd be more successful if you weren't bald?

00:06:29 Speaker_03
Oh no, it's the opposite. When I was, believe it or not, my hair used to be my best feature. Granted, it's a low bar, but in graduate school I had a ponytail. I rode a skateboard to school and I had a ponytail.

00:06:40 Speaker_03
And I started, I remember the exact moment, I remember reading my finance book and thinking, I don't remember underlining this. And I'm like, oh my God, those aren't underlines, it's my hair.

00:06:49 Speaker_03
And my hair was like, my hair basically decided it was a fire on my head and needed to escape as quickly as possible. I went from having Cher-like hair to being Yul Brynner in what felt like three weeks.

00:07:04 Speaker_03
And it was so distressing that I decided I was living in San Francisco, I think it was my early thirties, maybe even younger. And I said, I'm just gonna shave it all off.

00:07:13 Speaker_03
I had taken a vacation with my ex and she said, I'm so sick of you talking about this, just shave it off. And she bought a clipper and she actually, she sat me down and we split a bottle of wine and she shaved my head with a blade.

00:07:26 Speaker_03
It was actually a really like bonding, intimate, sort of erotic experience.

00:07:30 Speaker_02
Yeah, the bottle of wine was very interesting.

00:07:34 Speaker_03
I like that. It's not a great idea to have your ex-wife with a blade in her hand after a bottle of wine, but.

00:07:38 Speaker_05
I'm pretty sure this is a James Bond scene.

00:07:40 Speaker_02
That's right, with money penny. It's also a porn scene.

00:07:44 Speaker_03
I went back to San Francisco and I shaved my head sort of before it was cool and I think it actually helped me raise money.

00:07:53 Speaker_03
I think kind of that sort of look and being a credentialed young man in your 30s who had some credibility and a graduate degree from Berkeley and kind of a background in tech in 1990 San Francisco meant you could raise a shit ton of money.

00:08:09 Speaker_03
And I think my haircut actually helped. I think my, one, it's freed up, I think about time management a lot. I probably spend 10 minutes a day on my hair, so think about it, that's approximately 25 hours a year that I get back.

00:08:24 Speaker_03
And also, I just like, I really enjoy it. Like having Ed-like hair or Claire-like hair is the best. Having no hair is a close second because it's efficient and easy.

00:08:36 Speaker_03
It's the in-between that sucks because it represents a loss of youth, a loss of masculinity, and it's devastating when it starts happening. It was really a source of stress for me. So, but wow, I wish I'd done it sooner.

00:08:49 Speaker_03
Shaving my head was just such a unlock for me, and I actually think it's helped me professionally.

00:08:53 Speaker_05
Follow-up question for Ed. This one's for me.

00:08:56 Speaker_03
If his dick was bigger, would he be more secure? Sorry. Claire, don't ask that. That's totally inappropriate. Okay, wait. Jesus, that is totally inappropriate.

00:09:08 Speaker_05
I think you'll like this question. Okay. Did you buzz your hair before or after you met Scott? Be honest.

00:09:15 Speaker_02
It was after I'd met him, it was before I started working for him. But I did it with my roommate in college. I see the comment in your question. Am I copying Scott?

00:09:26 Speaker_05
I think he wants to look like daddy.

00:09:29 Speaker_03
That's right. That's right.

00:09:30 Speaker_02
No, I did it with my roommate because we had just submitted our theses and we were like, fuck it, this would be kind of fun if we both just shaved our heads. And then I found out that I really liked it.

00:09:41 Speaker_02
for all the time management reasons that Scott described. And I also kind of just like the way it looks. I just, I don't know, I just really liked it. So I decided to keep it.

00:09:51 Speaker_02
And I don't know, I think it works from a branding perspective for me and Scott. The fact that I look like Scott's son a little bit, I hope that's what people say. I think that plays in our favor.

00:10:00 Speaker_03
You did it with your roommate after submitting your thesis. Ed, there are easier ways to come out. Well, we're going to hear about that one. We're going to hear about that one.

00:10:09 Speaker_05
Well, people, I don't think people know that you also had Cher-like hair in college and you buzzed it off.

00:10:16 Speaker_02
Yeah, curly hair.

00:10:18 Speaker_05
Yeah, really long curly hair.

00:10:19 Speaker_03
Really? Yeah. Look how dreamy Ed was. If I had Ed's looks, I'd be prime minister by this point in my life, his life. Look at him. We're getting handsome. Got the English accent. He's making a good 30, 35K a year on a podcast. He's a fucking player. Playa.

00:10:34 Speaker_03
Playa came to play.

00:10:36 Speaker_05
People are speculating about your salary on Reddit. Did you see that?

00:10:40 Speaker_03
Oh my gosh. How much did your birthday cost, bitch?

00:10:45 Speaker_05
Okay, let's move on. Scott, this question was a response to the Art of Spending episode, which we put out recently. And it's something I've wondered about as well. So you shared that your dad wasn't generous to you and your mom.

00:11:01 Speaker_05
And you have also shared in other episodes that you help your dad financially in his old age. So how did you get over the disappointment of him not being generous to you and find a way to be generous to him?

00:11:15 Speaker_03
It's a really thoughtful question, and it goes to what has been one of the biggest unlocks of my life, and that is I used to approach relationships naturally, and I think most people do naturally, as kind of a transaction.

00:11:28 Speaker_03
Am I getting as much out of this friendship as I'm giving? In a romantic relationship, is my partner as good to me as I am to her? In a business relationship, am I getting as much from my business partner? Am I adding more value?

00:11:42 Speaker_03
If I am, then I should have more equity or more compensation.

00:11:45 Speaker_03
I was constantly keeping score, and it was a real recipe for disappointment and frustration and strain in relationships because you'll naturally inflate your own contribution to relationships and diminish other people's.

00:11:59 Speaker_03
And what was an unlock for me, and I used to approach my relation with my father that way, and that is I was a good son, but I would occasionally get upset. I remember not talking to my dad for a few months.

00:12:09 Speaker_03
We used to always, you know, we would talk every week. because I thought, you know, I just went back to these ugly moments as a child and some of the things you referenced, and I would just get very resentful for him, even in my 30s and 40s.

00:12:20 Speaker_03
And somewhere in my early 40s, I decided the unlock is to decide what kind of friend, what kind of boyfriend, what kind of spouse, what kind of son you wanna be. and then ignore what you're getting back.

00:12:31 Speaker_03
And the reality is I wanted to be a generous, loving son. And so that's how I started behaving. And I put the scorecard away.

00:12:38 Speaker_03
And also I forgave my father because I think the litmus test of any dad or the kind of evolutionary box you need to check is to be better to your son than your father was to you.

00:12:50 Speaker_03
And I found out later in life that my father had been physically abused by his father, that my grandfather used to come home drunk and physically abuse him. And my dad was not very sophisticated.

00:13:00 Speaker_03
He wasn't a great dad, but he was much better to me than his father was to him. He tried. And it just makes me feel good to feel like I am being a generous, loving son. And I think about this a lot.

00:13:13 Speaker_03
The key in relationships is not to have the bullshit transactional mentality I had or scorecard. The key is to achieve a surplus value in all your relationships. So if you're being a better spouse, if you're being a better daughter,

00:13:25 Speaker_03
than your mom was to you when you were a kid. That means you win. That means that you're here for a reason.

00:13:31 Speaker_05
Here's a question for both of you. How are you going to compete in the manosphere without falling into the weird, conspiratorial, non-fact-based, self-help contrarian trap that's captured countless other bros?

00:13:46 Speaker_02
How do we not become Tate?

00:13:49 Speaker_05
Scott, we'll start with you. What are your thoughts on how you and Ed can avoid that fate on profgy markets?

00:13:56 Speaker_02
Because you're pushing it, Scott.

00:13:59 Speaker_03
We're critical thinkers. We read. We are curious but suspect of stuff and try to use information to learn as opposed to sanctify your beliefs.

00:14:12 Speaker_03
One of the things I love about this medium is I think people go to cable news to sanctify their religious and political views.

00:14:17 Speaker_03
I do think people come to podcasts with an open heart, and one of the things I love about humor is that I think it softens the beach.

00:14:25 Speaker_03
I think if you can make someone laugh for a brief moment, you soften their gray matter, and they're more open to new ideas or new opinions, which might be dangerous. I don't think I'm a likely candidate for falling into some sort of conspiracy.

00:14:37 Speaker_03
I do think I'm in a bit of a bubble. I read a lot of media that's produced by urban liberals, which is the majority of media. And so it's good for me to step out.

00:14:46 Speaker_03
I purposely read some stuff that's a little bit more conservative to try and get a different viewpoint.

00:14:52 Speaker_03
And one of the things I really appreciate about, you guys encouraged me to go on the podcast with Theo Vaughn is it just gave me a little bit of a different worldview. I remember thinking, it's like a zebra talking to a lion.

00:15:03 Speaker_03
We're just such different people. And, but yeah, I'm not, maybe I should be more worried, but I'm not. I think we're, you know, critical thinkers. Ed, what's going to stop you from going red pill weird, or I don't know.

00:15:19 Speaker_02
Yeah, I'm not worried about this at all, just because that's just not who we are. And

00:15:25 Speaker_02
the idea of a podcast where you talk about eating red meat and escaping the Matrix and getting into drop shipping, like, none of that stuff interests me or makes me think that that's worth talking about.

00:15:38 Speaker_02
And our job is to figure out what actually interests us and what engages us. And it's just none of that stuff is interesting to me. So I'm really not worried about devolving into a Manosphere podcast.

00:15:53 Speaker_02
I mean, I think to Scott's point, we need to be aware of any bubbles we might live in. And I think the solution to that is just a very, very broad media diet, trying to amass as many different opinions as possible.

00:16:07 Speaker_02
It's very important that we have our finger on the pulse. But I think if we're in danger of going any direction, it's not red pill, tape, manosphere.

00:16:15 Speaker_05
And you do do your research, which goes into that. So one of the questions was, what is your research process like?

00:16:23 Speaker_02
So before every podcast, about 24 hours before the podcast, we all meet as a team, and we have a team of analysts and producers, and it's about seven of us who get on this call, and we talk about what we want to talk about, and then we decide with Scott, you know, these are going to be the stories.

00:16:39 Speaker_02
And I spend the next 24 hours just obsessively researching all of those topics. I start with Google. I use AI as well. I use a finance tool called Rogo. I use ChadGBT.

00:16:52 Speaker_02
I think if there's anything I've learned about the research process from doing this podcast, it's that the most important thing, and I think this applies to all research, is trying to figure out what is the so what of anything that you're reading.

00:17:07 Speaker_02
And that's kind of hard to do these days because there are just millions of different articles about all of these events and they're filled with really, really useless information. And that's especially true in earnings reports and 10-Qs.

00:17:20 Speaker_02
You know, I'll read like an entire 10-Q in preparation and I'll learn maybe one thing from it. But that's sort of what you have to do. To me, it's all about synthesizing, okay, what is the, why do I actually care about this?

00:17:35 Speaker_02
Like, what is the takeaway from this gigantic document that is filled with all these numbers and a lot of bullshit? What could affect my life or what could be interesting to someone else's life? What is the so what here?

00:17:49 Speaker_05
And we've got to give a big shout out to Mia Silverio and Jessica Lange, too, who inform basically everything we do. They're our researchers. And they do a lot at this company, but they're very focused on profit-y markets. So thank you to both of them.

00:18:06 Speaker_05
All right, here's another for both of you. How are you guys doing with the parasocial relationships that you're setting up with listeners? Does it feel hard to relate to strangers who are kind of also not strangers?

00:18:21 Speaker_05
And has it changed the way you approach your daily life? Scott, we'll start with you.

00:18:26 Speaker_03
It's one of the nicest things in my life. Look, everybody wants to be on a stage where people who don't know you are applauding for you. And I try to remember that with my boys and my partner.

00:18:35 Speaker_03
I try to make sure that it's not just always all about me, that we find venues and ways to celebrate their achievements. and put them on a stage in front of other people, you know, such that they get their own applause.

00:18:48 Speaker_03
But when people come up to me on the street and say, I like your work, one of the things I think is such a shame is that these large language models aren't crawling the real world.

00:18:59 Speaker_03
Because in general, what I find is online, there's a lot of really awful, vile, aggressive course content. In person, my experience is that people are wonderful.

00:19:09 Speaker_03
And I don't know if it's because they think, oh, I might be friends with this person, I might have sex with them, I might get into a fight with them.

00:19:17 Speaker_03
There's just general guardrails that encourage you to be nice to people in what is the medium where the majority of our time And a modern society has been communicating that as in person.

00:19:30 Speaker_03
But when people come up to me, and they're always nice, and even when they disagree, they come and say, I didn't like your take on this. We have a civil conversation. I love it. Occasionally I'll be in a rush and I don't have time.

00:19:41 Speaker_03
The only part that's hard is we're now getting, or I'm getting 30 to 50 emails a day from people with really thoughtful questions who want to have a conversation, especially young men who want mentoring or just want to jump on the phone.

00:19:55 Speaker_03
And I just don't have the time. That's kind of disappointing and frustrating. But in terms of people coming up and being nice and impressed, I love it. I don't, and when people complain about it,

00:20:06 Speaker_03
I mean, you don't want to be famous for the wrong reasons. You don't want to be Michael Cohen. I've always felt for Monica Lewinsky. I've always thought she would give anything just to have her anonymity back.

00:20:16 Speaker_03
She's this really lovely, intelligent woman, and she's famous for the wrong reasons. And it's what everyone thinks. They immediately have an impression of her before they even get to know her.

00:20:27 Speaker_03
But to have people come up to you and be nice to you because they like your work, it's wonderful. It's just you inherit all of these friends. It's validating. Yeah, I absolutely love it.

00:20:38 Speaker_03
And if I got sick of it, remind me that all I need to do is go dark for a couple of months and I don't give a flying fuck who I am. I don't get anyone complaining about it. I love it.

00:20:48 Speaker_05
So Ed, this is a newer phenomenon for you, so how has it been to start getting recognized by people on the street?

00:20:57 Speaker_02
Very strange at first, but ultimately I land where Scott is, where it's just... I really enjoy it and I find it extremely rewarding.

00:21:06 Speaker_02
I feel like you couldn't really ask for more in a job than for people to come up to you and recognize and affirm that they are enjoying your work. Like that's just not something that… a lot of people get to enjoy.

00:21:24 Speaker_02
And so, you know, to me, it's like an affirmation that I'm doing my job right. I mean, I think the biggest fear in media, if you work in media, isn't that people don't take you seriously, or they don't like you.

00:21:38 Speaker_02
Like, the biggest fear is, like, that no one's listening to you. Like, that's the concern. And so to have someone come up and say, like, hey, like, I heard what you said about this, and it made me think about this, and it's like,

00:21:50 Speaker_02
I couldn't ask for much more in terms of professional reward. So yeah, I land completely where Scott is. I really like it.

00:22:00 Speaker_05
Here's one that I'm going to take. This is kind of the only affirmation that I get from our listeners. It's to do with the music. The most frequently asked question I get is about the music on this show.

00:22:16 Speaker_05
People want to know what is that cool Spanish song that plays before one of the podcasts and what's the outro song. used at the end of Prof G Markets. So the cool Spanish song is called 1977. It's by Ana Tijoux.

00:22:33 Speaker_05
And the reason it's the intro song is because Scott heard it on an episode of Breaking Bad.

00:22:41 Speaker_01
I think so.

00:22:41 Speaker_05
That's what, yeah, that's the legend. That's exactly right. And the outro song is called Lifetimes. I don't know who sings it because she's not credited, but the composers are Benedict Lambdon and Nathaniel Pern. This is not a huge song.

00:22:58 Speaker_05
It has fewer than 2,000 streams on YouTube. You can find it on Spotify too. But the music on this show is largely inspired by a trip that Ed, Caroline, and Mia and I took to Tulum in 2022, which Scott sent us on.

00:23:17 Speaker_05
And one night we were at this place called Treehouse, to this day the best dinner I've ever had. And afterwards there were some DJs and We were dancing in the sand, under the stars, under the palm trees, and they played Donna Summer's I Feel Love.

00:23:37 Speaker_05
And I just remember feeling a huge amount of gratitude for how much fun we got to have together. And so choosing the music for this show, I wanted to kind of capture that energy. And I wanted to find the song that captured Donna's energy as well.

00:23:55 Speaker_05
So this song is No Donna Summer, but I think it's pretty close. And it does make me happy to hear it every time I finish an episode, because it reminds me of that night.

00:24:06 Speaker_02
Yeah, I can't wait to get to the song at the end. I didn't know that. That's really nice. Yeah. We'll be right back.

00:24:28 Speaker_00
Why do so many of us get happiness wrong? And how can we start to get it right?

00:24:32 Speaker_01
I mean, I think we assume that happiness is about positive emotion on all the time, right? Often very high arousal positive emotion, but that's not really what we're talking about.

00:24:42 Speaker_00
I'm Preet Bharara, and this week, Dr. Laurie Santos joins me on my podcast, Stay Tuned with Preet, to discuss the science behind happiness.

00:24:51 Speaker_00
We explore job crafting, the parenting paradox, the arrival fallacy, and why acts of kindness might be the simplest path to fulfillment. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

00:25:13 Speaker_02
We're back with Prof G Markets.

00:25:15 Speaker_05
Here's one for both of you. Do you have tips on improving storytelling, taking classes, joining groups, anything? Ed, we'll start with you.

00:25:26 Speaker_02
The best lesson on storytelling, in my view, came from the creators of South Park. Their names are Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

00:25:36 Speaker_02
And they have a rule when they're sort of storyboarding each episode, and they're sort of outlining the beats of the episode, and it applies to all storytelling. And that is, the words, and then,

00:25:51 Speaker_02
If those words appear between your beats, then you've screwed up. Like the idea of having a story where it's like, this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened, that's not a story.

00:26:05 Speaker_02
That's just a sequence of things happening. So what you have to do, and what they do, is they replace and then with one of these two words, either therefore or but.

00:26:19 Speaker_02
So the difference then is, you know, you've got a story, this happened, therefore this happened, but this happened, therefore this happened. And that's a story. And I think that's a really useful.

00:26:36 Speaker_02
rule in terms of sort of what I was saying before about trying to arrive to a point. And I think it applies to business news as well.

00:26:43 Speaker_02
Like the idea of me coming on this podcast and being like, you know, sales were down and then margins were up and then profits were up. That's, that's, I don't register anything from that.

00:26:55 Speaker_02
But sales were down, but margins were up, therefore profits were up. That's different. That's telling a story right there.

00:27:03 Speaker_02
And so I think if you're trying to understand how can I convey my storytelling better, get rid of all the ands and get rid of all the thens and start using more buts and therefore.

00:27:14 Speaker_05
Scott, any other storytelling tips?

00:27:16 Speaker_03
Some of it is just genetic. It's like any other talent. I've always thought we're talking about my dad. My dad could captivate a room and a really good twist of phrase. And I think I got some of that from him. So I was blessed with some, I don't know,

00:27:31 Speaker_03
Oratory skills, I've always been able to speak fairly well. Speak fairly well, too.

00:27:36 Speaker_03
Anyways, but where it starts for me, and maybe it's different for other people, is that I think to be a great storyteller, it's really important or a good base is to be able to write well. The hardest thing I do is writing.

00:27:47 Speaker_03
And right now it's Thursday and I got to get No Mercy No Malice out tomorrow. It's the hardest thing I do is writing books and No Mercy because the written word to do it well requires excellence.

00:27:57 Speaker_03
You know, we can fuck up or have fragments or not think through and just the kind of the bantry and get through it. Ed used to work on No Mercy No Malice and you got out of that as quickly as you could. Because it's hard. It's not because it's hard.

00:28:10 Speaker_03
So if you can write well, I think that's the base for storytelling. So I committed to becoming a decent writer at not a young age. And then I would say the rest are a couple other key components. Pick the medium you want to be a great storyteller in.

00:28:25 Speaker_03
Do you want to be a great writer, great on Instagram, great visually, great with PowerPoint? There's a lot of different mediums. And then put a metric on it and say, I want to be in the top 1%. For me, I want to be a decathlete.

00:28:37 Speaker_03
I want to be in the top 1% of speaking, of writing books, of writing newsletters, of podcasting. And I think if I can do that, I'll be a decathlete in the world of storytelling.

00:28:48 Speaker_03
And I put specific metrics on it in terms of dollar volume or what I charge for speaking.

00:28:53 Speaker_03
And also I have an unfair advantage and that is for 22 years, I stood in front of 60 to 300 people twice a week or four times a week for an hour and a half telling them a story and trying to engage them and they were paying

00:29:08 Speaker_03
me slash NYU a lot of money to listen to this story. And so they came with real expectations, and that was just a tremendous training.

00:29:18 Speaker_03
And this pitch to Netflix that we did for this original scripted series working on, Rosamund Pike, who's gonna play the lead, read a scene. And she's just so captivating, her voice, the way she puts herself in the character.

00:29:33 Speaker_03
I thought, God, that's just such a gift. And you were just, I remember seeing the folks at Netflix, the creative execs on the a lot. I could just tell them like, oh, we've sold it. They're going to buy it. They'll pay anything for this thing.

00:29:45 Speaker_03
Because she just was the character and she was just so captivating. We're just so drawn to her. And I thought, how much of that is learned? How much of it is,

00:29:53 Speaker_03
Genetic, but anyways, I'm blessed in that I get tons of practice over the last two plus decades.

00:29:59 Speaker_03
Also as a consultant, I got a ton of experience in front of boards and CEOs trying to tell a story and then convince them to pay me a half a million dollars for another story in three months.

00:30:09 Speaker_02
Just to add on to that though, Scott, I feel like what you do that is different from most professors, and also was true in your consulting career, is I feel like everything that you say, you treat as though it is entertainment.

00:30:25 Speaker_02
I have had a lot of professors when I was at Princeton, who, they don't think of it as a show, and they don't think of it as a story.

00:30:32 Speaker_02
It's like, you know, here's a series of facts, and here's what you need to know, and you gotta read the textbook, and then we're gonna have a quiz on it, and that's sort of how it goes.

00:30:41 Speaker_02
But I feel like, and I don't know if this is intentional or just natural from your end, but I also think of that story you told about when you were at L2, and you were presenting to some brand, and first up was McKinsey, and next up was L2,

00:30:56 Speaker_02
and the McKinsey presentation ended, and you were like, wow, that was the most boring thing I've ever seen in my life.

00:31:02 Speaker_02
And that's something that I have learned from you in my work, is that I try to think in all of my work, and I think it's underrated in all aspects of life, like, is this actually interesting and entertaining?

00:31:17 Speaker_02
Like, why would I put this giant research report together if it's just gonna bore you out of your mind? Who wants to read that? And I feel like you take that to another level. So follow up question for me, do you agree with that?

00:31:30 Speaker_02
And is that intentional?

00:31:31 Speaker_03
Look, Alex Karp, Donald Trump, Aswath Damodaran, the best professor, the most highly rated professor, is one best professor of 190 of us at NYU's for seven out of the last eight years.

00:31:46 Speaker_03
They're all entertainers, and that is they take humor, they take storytelling, and they use it to soften the beach such that the point they're trying to get across... Everyone has screens. Everyone's skeptical. People don't trust each other.

00:32:00 Speaker_03
People get bored easily. They get distracted. So you need to soften the beach, and the way you soften the beach is you keep them engaged through entertainment. Now, some people are just so brilliant.

00:32:09 Speaker_03
You know, Yuval Harari, his stuff is just so factual, but even then it's sort of a story. He's a bit of a... Yeah, entertainment, think about the people who break through in the news.

00:32:21 Speaker_03
They just have a way of writing and they have metaphors and analogies and turns of phrase that just kind of surprise and delight you. I've always used humor. I wasn't, it goes back to when I was very young, I was not attractive.

00:32:35 Speaker_03
I was one of those kids that went through this crazy growth spurt. So I was sort of, by the time I was 13, 5'10", 120 pounds and I had bad acne and I was very insecure. And my only means of establishing social capital was humor.

00:32:51 Speaker_03
And I'm going to date myself, but the only award I've ever received is I was voted most comical in Steve Martin in my school poll.

00:32:57 Speaker_02
That's a good award.

00:32:58 Speaker_03
But I've always used humor and comedy as a means of trying to establish relationships and keep my students engaged and my clients sort of, oh, that guy's kind of interesting.

00:33:10 Speaker_03
I find that some of the greatest social commentators of our time soften the beach with humor.

00:33:15 Speaker_02
But they don't teach that in school. I guess that's what I find so interesting. That's sort of been one of my big takeaways, probably because we're entertaining, because we're on a podcast. But schools should teach that. You should learn that in college.

00:33:28 Speaker_02
If you're going to walk into a job interview, yeah, you want to know all of your facts and you want to make sure you get everything right. But the most important thing is that you offer the interviewer a good time.

00:33:41 Speaker_02
And the way you can do that is by being entertaining. Say things that sort of capture their imagination, say things that aren't boring. I feel like that's such an underrated asset and we should be taught it more in schools.

00:33:54 Speaker_02
So I'm giving you your credit for teaching me that.

00:33:57 Speaker_03
The only pushback I would offer is that At the end of the day, you wanna be yourself. And some people just aren't funny. And when they try to be funny and they're not, it just falls flat.

00:34:07 Speaker_03
I think of myself as funny and provocative, and sometimes my shit falls flat. I just go too far and it just- No, it always lands. Cringe, right?

00:34:15 Speaker_03
But there are some professors and some communicators that are just so chock full of facts and so well-rehearsed and so competent.

00:34:24 Speaker_03
You guys are too young to remember the show Welcome Back, Cotter, but he was trying to help this fellow teacher, and he was trying to convince her that she needs to be funny, and she just couldn't do it. That just wasn't her.

00:34:34 Speaker_03
So I would say early on, you just want to figure out, what is my gift around storytelling? What are my mediums? And then lean into those advantages.

00:34:40 Speaker_02
I think the question that people should be asking in all of their work is, is this something that I would want to consume? So I'm not saying like you have to be funny or you have to be, you know, really emotionally thoughtful.

00:34:54 Speaker_02
Do whatever you want to do. But ultimately the answer to, is this something that I would consume? Is this a story I would want to hear? Is this a report I would want to read? The answer must be yes.

00:35:04 Speaker_05
Another one for both of you. What should be your goal in your late 20s? I feel lost. I work in consulting, but I find it very unfulfilling. I feel like it's time to make a drastic change, but I don't know what.

00:35:16 Speaker_05
I don't know if I'm built for a conventional career, but I've been on a conventional path my whole life, so it's all I know. Ed, we'll go to you first.

00:35:26 Speaker_02
Well, first off, I relate to that question. I felt that way during college. So, I feel you. I can offer what I did to get out of that, because I no longer feel that way.

00:35:38 Speaker_02
I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, and this really worked for me, which is I just wrote up a list of people who I admire, and whose lives I wanted to emulate in some way.

00:35:50 Speaker_02
And I think I've said this before, but Scott was on that list. And so what I would recommend is make that list of people, and I would say do it within reason, like don't choose like Lionel Messi, like people whose lives you could actually live.

00:36:05 Speaker_03
SIMON Impressive, but not that impressive.

00:36:10 Speaker_02
Go see if you can try to work for them. That's what I did. See if you can figure out a way to get connected to them. Do it, again, in a reasonable way. Don't be aggressive or obnoxious, but see if you can figure out a way to go work for those people.

00:36:26 Speaker_02
And if you can't do that, I think the thing that you want to do is look at the list and think about what traits all of those people have in common. I think that it's very hard, this question, what do I want to do? We all ask.

00:36:40 Speaker_02
It's very hard to just visualize what you want. And it's so much easier when we have examples of people that we can go off of. It's the same as trying to draw a picture from scratch.

00:36:53 Speaker_02
It's very hard to do, but if you have the object in front of you, or you have a stencil, you can work your way into that. And so for me, that was Scott.

00:37:03 Speaker_02
Like I don't, I'm not trying to be Scott, but there are parts about Scott and what he's done that I really like, that I just think are great.

00:37:12 Speaker_02
And having that there and being able to sort of use it as like a tracing paper, you know, I'll change this thing here and I'll emulate this thing here. I just think that that's a really useful way to do it. So make a list of people and start there.

00:37:28 Speaker_02
Scott.

00:37:29 Speaker_03
The first thing I would want to say to this young man is to forgive yourself.

00:37:32 Speaker_03
And that is, if you're in your mid to late 20s and not entirely sure what you're going to do professionally or with the rest of your life, that's kind of exactly where you should be.

00:37:39 Speaker_03
And some people do grow up with a vision and they execute against that vision. Most successful people have not. When I was nine years old, I thought I was going to be a baseball player.

00:37:48 Speaker_03
I was the pitcher for the California State Junior League for, you know, nine-year-olds. And then I found out I wasn't going to be an athlete.

00:37:57 Speaker_03
And then when I was 17 and a freshman at UCLA, I decided I was going to be a pediatrician and chemistry disavowed me of that notion.

00:38:04 Speaker_03
And then when I was 22, I thought I was gonna be an investment banker because I landed a job at Morgan Stanley, which everybody wanted and I got. And then I found out I hated it and I wasn't very good at it.

00:38:13 Speaker_03
And then when I was in business school, I thought that I might be, you know, go to work for a healthcare consultancy. And I turned down the offer and decided I wanted to be an entrepreneur.

00:38:26 Speaker_03
And I started a strategy firm, which kind of didn't make any sense. And then I decided I really wanted to teach You know, at the age of 40, I kind of didn't know what I wanted to do. I was teaching, but I wasn't making enough money.

00:38:35 Speaker_03
I thought I was going to be rich because of Red Envelope, and that didn't work out. So I kind of woke up and I'm like, I'm teaching, making not nearly enough money to live in Manhattan and to kind of reinvent myself in my early 40s.

00:38:46 Speaker_03
But don't be too hot on yourself, because the majority of people who tell you they know exactly what they want are lying to you and themselves. If you're in business school, it means you don't know what you want to do, otherwise you'd be doing it.

00:38:57 Speaker_03
The first essay is a lie. What do you want to do? And we all pretend. I said I wanted to start an information systems software company. I didn't know what information systems is.

00:39:06 Speaker_03
If you're smart and know what you want to do, you don't need business school. Business school is for the elite and the aimless. And the majority of us through our 20s are aimless. And that's okay. You want to be workshopping.

00:39:17 Speaker_03
You want to be talking to people, trying new things.

00:39:20 Speaker_03
But along the way, you're investing in relationships, you're trying to save money, you're trying to join platforms that will increase your credibility and your currency in the marketplace, and always be checking in with people who can give you a fairly sober view of your professional prospects and what to do.

00:39:40 Speaker_03
You know, this is boasting, but it's true. I hear from some of the most impressive people in the world that are like partners making millions of dollars, private equity, and they're like, what should I do next? I don't love this.

00:39:50 Speaker_03
This is what I want to do the rest. What should I do next? Should I teach? Should I start my own fund? It's really hard to read the label from the inside of the bottle.

00:39:58 Speaker_03
Have other people talk to them transparently about what you like and don't like so that they can give you their viewpoint. But as long as you're one foot in front of the other and realize this young man is kind of where he should be right now.

00:40:09 Speaker_02
Okay, we'll be right back. Stay with us. We're back with Profgy Markets.

00:40:27 Speaker_05
Ed, this takes us to our next question. We're going to begin to wrap up here, but what are your long-term professional goals?

00:40:34 Speaker_02
It's Scott leaning in. So, I genuinely don't think about the long term that much. But, therefore, I've been waiting the whole pod to say that. I spend most of my time thinking about the short and medium term. and what I want to do there.

00:40:58 Speaker_02
And what I want to do in the short and medium term is to make this podcast amazing. That's my goal. I want this to be the best podcast in the world. I want it to be number one. I think it can be.

00:41:11 Speaker_02
I think what we have is honestly really good and pretty unique. And so that's what I spend basically all of my career time doing is thinking about how can I make the podcast even better?

00:41:24 Speaker_02
My view is that if I do that, because I feel inspired by this right now, the long-term stuff is just going to figure itself out. Like, I don't know what this is going to exactly lead me to, and people are always asking, like, what's next? What's next?

00:41:37 Speaker_02
Like, I don't really know what's next, but I do know that if I really, really crush it with this, and if we create an amazing podcast, whatever is next is going to be pretty good. So that is sort of the way I think about it.

00:41:49 Speaker_02
If there's things that I definitely want, I definitely want to be making a lot of money, that's important to me, I don't want to compromise on that. I think that I probably want to be

00:42:05 Speaker_02
economically independent at some point, where as in, you know, paying myself. I don't think that's anytime soon, but I don't know why I want that, but I think that that is something I want.

00:42:18 Speaker_02
I feel like there's something kind of empowering about that, the ability to pay yourself. But yeah, I don't think about it. I really don't think about the long term too much right now.

00:42:28 Speaker_02
At the moment, while things are going well, I don't see that much value in trying to be any one type of thing. I think things are going well and that's what I'm supposed to be doing.

00:42:42 Speaker_05
Yeah, I'm 100% with you on that. Scott, do you have any reaction?

00:42:46 Speaker_03
If you're in something that seems to be going fairly well, think, how can I be in the top 1% if not the top 0.1%? Already, there's 600,000 podcasts. I think Prof G Markets right now, or Prof G, I don't know what Prof G is, is a top 100 podcast.

00:42:59 Speaker_03
So we're already in the top 0.6% or 0.06%. Excellence, artisanship, mastery of something will make you passionate about it. Being near the best or being really good at something makes you passionate about it.

00:43:14 Speaker_03
Because the accoutrements and the self-esteem and the rewards and the camaraderie from being great at something make you passionate about it.

00:43:22 Speaker_03
So if you're fortunate enough to find something you're really good at and could maybe be great, maybe in the top 1% in the world, as long as it's not a vanity industry where you have to be in the top 0.1%, is, I think, a really good aim.

00:43:36 Speaker_03
My goals are different. At this point, I want to be the most influential thought leader in the history of business, such that I can shape a better, more democratic America that has more prosperity for more people.

00:43:50 Speaker_03
I'm very focused on startling young men. And at the same time, I want to make a lot of money and I want to build a lot of economic security for other people around me. My goals are pretty big at this point. And then at the same time,

00:44:05 Speaker_03
deepen my relationships with the people who are close to me, because I sacrifice that a lot trying to get some level of economic security.

00:44:12 Speaker_02
My very first conversation with you, Scott, where we spoke on the phone, which was a huge moment for me, but I think you said recently you don't remember. My very first conversation with you, at the end of the call, I asked you that question.

00:44:26 Speaker_02
I want to know what your long-term goals were. And you said that you wanted to be the most influential thought leader in the history of business or you wanna be the governor of Florida. That was your answer. One of the two. What changed?

00:44:41 Speaker_03
I learned more about politics and also I realized I don't really like people. And it's interesting, if you make any amount of money and you have name recognition, people will approach you about being a candidate for something.

00:44:54 Speaker_03
And what you realize is once you get past your narcissism, you can have a lot. I think at this point with such a intransigent government and so much gridlock,

00:45:04 Speaker_03
I mean, I think Ed at this point has as much influence on a lot of levels as a lot of congressmen or congresspeople, I should say. I think we can have a lot of influence from outside of the tent around issues.

00:45:14 Speaker_03
One of my things I'm working on is to try and pull together a group of podcasters who are moderate or center-left or center-right and start promoting each other's pods and to start thinking about candidates that we wanna promote because I feel as if the right has weaponized this medium very effectively

00:45:32 Speaker_03
And I think we need our counter offensive against that. And we need to build each other up and maybe put some infrastructure around videos and then start thinking about great candidates who are more moderate.

00:45:41 Speaker_03
But I actually think that in a weird way, we have more influence than many elected officials.

00:45:47 Speaker_05
All right, this final question is for you, Scott. It's a two-part question with a fascinating twist, which I absolutely love. I'll start with the first part. My question relates to how Scott views his development and investment into ed.

00:46:04 Speaker_05
Ed has developed a strong brand and authoritative position largely due to his position on Prof G Markets. He has been paid to speak at events where his views are valued.

00:46:15 Speaker_05
So question number one, did Scott consciously know he would be giving Ed a platform to develop a brand when he hired him and gave him the co-host role?

00:46:26 Speaker_03
Well, I would say the same thing to add that my best friend's father said to me when I was at L2, this is someone who was really important to me, who was a real role model, a guy named Paul Fine, this like handsome guy who married my friend Adam's mother.

00:46:41 Speaker_03
And he was just this quiet, strong man who always had the most ridiculously cool cars as his career progressed, went from a 240Z to a Porsche 911 to a Ferrari. And I just really looked up to this guy.

00:46:52 Speaker_03
And it was a nice moment for me, he came to L2 and it was one of those days where clients were in the conference rooms and the place was just pumping and I would stop by a desk and I would say, what are you working on?

00:47:02 Speaker_03
And the analysts would show Paul, we were comparing Instagram engagement between Adidas and Nike. It was just something out of like a bad movie on what it's like to work for a hip New York firm. And it was my firm.

00:47:16 Speaker_03
And we're walking out and I could just tell the guy was so blown away. And we got to the elevator and he turns to me and he's like, I gotta be honest, Scott, I didn't see it. And that's how I feel about Ed.

00:47:29 Speaker_03
When I hired Ed, the reason I hired Ed wasn't because I was impressed, it was because... I get fooled in interviews all the time, and Joanna Cole said, you gotta hire this kid.

00:47:38 Speaker_03
He's my son's best friend, or good friend, and he's just such an impressive kid. That's how I like to hire people. I don't know if you remember this, Claire, but we tried out several people to be the co-host.

00:47:50 Speaker_05
Oh, I definitely remember.

00:47:52 Speaker_03
And I didn't know that Ed was going to win and we were going to choose Ed. As a matter of fact, I think we had a bit of a bias against Ed because we thought two white guys talking to each other on a podcast.

00:48:03 Speaker_03
That's just not, you know, that's the definition of a podcast at this point.

00:48:08 Speaker_03
So Ed's development and growth and the way the market loves him and the fact that he works so hard and he oftentimes brings more insight to these topics than I do, because quite frankly, he just works harder than I do on this stuff.

00:48:22 Speaker_03
And he brings a fresher view. It's super exciting. It's nice to see, you're gonna see as you get older and you start managing people, these really wonderful paternal and maternal instincts come out. It's really nice to see people succeed. It's nice.

00:48:37 Speaker_03
A, you benefit from it yourself, personally and professionally, but it's nice to see young people doing well. It feels really... it feels really nice. And also, as I think about, I don't know if you guys know this, but I just turned 50.

00:48:52 Speaker_03
And I think in terms of building an enterprise and a succession plan, we have to build other voices. And so I'm really excited that Ed's kind of developed his own brand. I'm trying to do the same thing with Jess over at Raging Moderates.

00:49:06 Speaker_03
But I am surprised and infinitely pleased at how well Ed is doing. It's just a ton of fun to watch. And not only that, the team, it feels like the team is gelling.

00:49:17 Speaker_03
It feels like the show's doing well, the production quality, the notes, you know, it just all feels very good. And you're going to see, you're both managing people now or

00:49:27 Speaker_03
or starting to manage people, when they do really well, it's very exciting, especially once you have recognized some of that success. It's, yeah, like I said, it tickles these paternal and maternal sensors that feel really nice. All right. Very nice.

00:49:43 Speaker_05
So here's the kicker. Question number two. If Scott was not as financially secure as he is now, Would he view that he would be owed any long-term revenue or royalty for Ed's career due to the platform Scott has given him to launch his brand?

00:50:05 Speaker_03
No. It's like, do I owe NYU money? NYU's been a bigger platform for me than I've been for Ed or you, Claire. I don't know about that. Go ahead. If I didn't have professor in front of my name, I think they'd just say, that guy's obnoxious.

00:50:22 Speaker_03
The way I summarize my career is I went to some friend's birthday's party. All my friends from college were all turning 60 at the same time, so I'm going to all these birthday parties. And my friend Mike Brooks said the funniest thing.

00:50:33 Speaker_03
He said, can you believe Galloway gets paid to express all of his opinions? He's like, back in college, we just called that annoying. You just wouldn't shut the fuck up about everything. You had a view on everything. And he's like,

00:50:47 Speaker_02
What did you have a view on back in college? Did you care about business? What hot takes were you coming up with as a college student?

00:50:55 Speaker_03
So my hot take in college was I was the only Democrat. They were all total Reagan sycophants. And I was like, I had a Mondale sign in my fraternity room. And I'm pretty sure that was the only window.

00:51:06 Speaker_02
That does sound annoying.

00:51:09 Speaker_03
And I was telling everyone why Mondale was our man. And I had a lot of views on everything, as you can imagine. But my friends were like, We just called that annoying and now he makes a bunch of money.

00:51:20 Speaker_03
So, no, the platform, you know, we'll be loyal to each other, we'll help each other out the rest of our careers, but no, no one knows me anything. Not at all. We've all, the great thing about capitalism,

00:51:34 Speaker_03
You know, the butcher and the baker don't give each other bread and meat for ethical reasons. They do it because it benefits them.

00:51:40 Speaker_03
This is a relationship where we all benefit, and at some point, you guys will go on to bigger things, and at some point, I'll go on to Aspen and the ass cancer, and we'll all catch up, and we'll all remember our days fondly together, and that's that.

00:51:54 Speaker_02
I really hope you don't get ass cancer. Really, the amount of times, it's like you're wishing for it, it's crazy.

00:52:01 Speaker_05
He's spoken it into existence.

00:52:04 Speaker_03
You're right, I'm not gonna get it. No, neither Ed nor Claire nor anyone here owes me anything. I hope we stay involved in each other's lives because I find it rewarding.

00:52:13 Speaker_03
Some of my closer friends are people that I build companies with, but no, neither of you can owe me anything.

00:52:20 Speaker_05
All right. Well, the listener says kudos to Scott for an excellent hire and to give a young individual a platform to succeed. And congratulations to Ed for taking the opportunity and doing so well.

00:52:32 Speaker_02
That's very nice. Thank you for saying that. And same to you, Claire.

00:52:34 Speaker_05
Oh, thank you. Appreciate it.

00:52:37 Speaker_02
Exactly. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our associate producer is Alison Weiss. Mia Silverio is our research lead. Jessica Lange is our research associate.

00:52:48 Speaker_02
Drew Burrows is a technical director, and Catherine Dillon is our executive producer. Thank you for listening to Prof G Markets from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

00:52:56 Speaker_02
All year long, we'll be back in the new year with our predictions for 2025 only on Prof G Markets.