America Has Changed. So Has Jon Stewart. AI transcript and summary - episode of podcast The Ezra Klein Show

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Episode: America Has Changed. So Has Jon Stewart.

Author: New York Times Opinion
Duration: 01:04:55

Episode Shownotes

In 2010, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert held a satirical rally on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., called the Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear. This was amid the Tea Party movement. Political emotions were running high. And Stewart ended the rally with a speech slamming the media for

stoking the country’s divisions.“But we live now in hard times, not end times,” he said. “And we can have animus and not be enemies. But unfortunately, one of our main tools in delineating the two broke.” That rally has a Rosetta Stone quality to it now. Because what Stewart was describing has only gotten worse. Our divisions feel deeper and more dangerous. So as we enter election week, I wanted to have a conversation with Stewart about some of the arcs he has traced in American politics since he first hosted “The Daily Show” in 1999. We discuss how the media has become increasingly segmented and polarized in the past 25 years, how that has affected politics, how he understands Tucker Carlson’s political transformation and whether his own politics have changed.Note: The Washington Post is one of several news organizations mentioned in this conversation. We taped this interview before the recent controversy at the Washington Post over ending its practice of presidential endorsements -- a decision made by the paper's owner, Jeff Bezos.This episode contains strong language.Book Recommendations:I Shouldn’t Be Telling You This (But I’m Going to Anyway) by Chelsea DevantezThe works of Kurt Vonnegut (Breakfast of Champions, Player Piano, Cat’s Cradle, Slaughterhouse-Five, God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater, etc.)Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected] can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Summary

In this episode of "The Ezra Klein Show," Ezra Klein and Jon Stewart discuss the changes in American politics since Stewart hosted "The Daily Show." They reflect on the 2010 Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear, initially a reaction to Glenn Beck's rallies, highlighting emerging political divisions. Stewart critiques the evolving role of media in amplifying political rhetoric and fueling polarization. The conversation addresses media's influence on societal perceptions, capitalism's role in media segmentation, and the impact of algorithms on content delivery. Stewart also examines the changes in media figures like Tucker Carlson and critiques media executives' focus on profit over ideology.

Go to PodExtra AI's episode page (America Has Changed. So Has Jon Stewart.) to play and view complete AI-processed content: summary, mindmap, topics, takeaways, transcript, keywords and highlights.

Full Transcript

00:00:05 Speaker_05
From New York Times Opinion, this is The Ezra Klein Show. So you go back to the Tea Party moment in 2010. Tucker Carlson had only just been hired by Fox News. He was just two years out from being employed by MSNBC.

00:00:40 Speaker_05
Elon Musk was standing for Barack Obama. You got Jon Stewart then into his second decade as a host of The Daily Show. And he and Stephen Colbert host a satirical rally to restore sanity and or fear at the National Mall in Washington, DC.

00:00:57 Speaker_05
And Stewart gives this speech.

00:01:00 Speaker_06
But we live now in hard times, not end times. And we can have animus and not be enemies. But unfortunately, One of our main tools in delineating the two... broke.

00:01:33 Speaker_05
When I look back now from the vantage point of the era we're in and the eras we've been in, this moment to me, it has this kind of Rosetta Stone quality. There's so much in it that is going to blossom in such strange and terrifying ways.

00:01:49 Speaker_05
And there's something about this sanity-fear framing. It seemed like a joke then. In some way, it doesn't seem like a joke now.

00:01:57 Speaker_05
In the years since the rally, Stewart has continued to track the media's tendency to amplify some of the worst, most divisive tendencies in American politics. He's now back hosting The Daily Show sometimes.

00:02:08 Speaker_05
He's got The Weekly Show podcast with Jon Stewart, which is great.

00:02:12 Speaker_05
So with very, very little time now before election day, I wanted to have him on the show to talk about his understanding of this arc of these decades, what he has seen, the way he has seen the media, some of the figures in it change, the way he has changed.

00:02:29 Speaker_05
As always, my email is reclinedshow at nytimes.com. Jon Stewart, welcome to the show.

00:02:46 Speaker_06
Thank you, Ezra. I'm delighted, I'm delighted to be here.

00:02:49 Speaker_05
So can we go in the Wayback Machine to the rally for fear and sanity, and or sanity?

00:02:53 Speaker_06
Oh my God, that's, how many years? We were all young. We were all young and apparently getting a contact tie.

00:03:04 Speaker_05
That has a little bit of a Rosetta Stone quality for me, that rally. How did it come about? How did you decide to do a rally?

00:03:13 Speaker_06
I'm trying to think back. I think what happened was this was at the height of Glenn Beck and he was doing these sort of

00:03:23 Speaker_06
oddly demagoguish rallies where he would go down to Washington and, you know, you would see like older tea partiers in lawn chairs sort of surrounding the waiting pool. And I think it came of that.

00:03:38 Speaker_06
I think I remember being on the phone with Steven and we were just laughing about it. And I said, you know, we should just go down there and bang one of those out. I mean, it was an entire clusterfuck like that.

00:03:52 Speaker_06
We really, I mean, as, as you could tell from watching it, probably the preparation was not, uh, it has been very hard to get clean audio from it.

00:03:59 Speaker_05
Yes. That's been that morning.

00:04:04 Speaker_06
So Steven and I, I was doing my show, he was doing Colbert report. So we didn't rehearse anything. We didn't do anything. And that morning we were driving over to the mall early.

00:04:16 Speaker_06
And you don't, at that time, you really didn't have a sense of if anybody would show up. And we're driving in and there's just a shit ton of people pouring out of, and we're like, oh, what's going on? And they were all going there.

00:04:30 Speaker_06
And we'd only set up like two large screen TVs, like that's pretty much all we had. And so we sat in a little makeshift trailer with the Roots, Ozzy Osbourne, the OJs,

00:04:45 Speaker_06
and Yusuf Islam and walked through, like, we were literally walking those guys through the ideas. So the roots are playing the songs and we're like, Yusuf Islam, you're gonna come out and do Peace Train. We're gonna do a whole thing.

00:04:59 Speaker_06
And then Ozzy, you're gonna interrupt after like two bar stanzas with Crazy Train. And Yusuf is just looking at us like, but Peace Train's a beautiful song. Why would you interrupt?

00:05:13 Speaker_05
The whole thing was bonkers.

00:05:16 Speaker_05
There's something about that rally I thought a lot about in the years after because in some weird way after that, I mean maybe it was happening then too, the political coalitions kind of split into the aesthetics of sanity, institutions, systems, in this house we believe in science.

00:05:34 Speaker_05
and the aesthetics of fear, conspiracy, rage, anger, a kind of nativist populism. And you were beginning to see it, right? Glenn Beck was the weird thing happening on Fox News.

00:05:48 Speaker_05
But when you were looking at the landscape then, what did sanity mean to you? And what did fear mean to you in politics?

00:05:58 Speaker_06
Well, I think it was, I mean, again, I'm trying to put myself back in the headspace of all that.

00:06:02 Speaker_06
I mean, all of it was kind of a reaction to, and our show was a reaction to, what I saw as kind of this, at that point, probably 40-year project of rebuilding parallel institutions to the left.

00:06:18 Speaker_06
So there was this idea, you know, people always talked about like, your show, it degraded the discourse and, you know, poked fun at things. And I'm like, do you have an AM radio?

00:06:27 Speaker_06
Like I used to, because I drove to a lot of gigs, you know, doing standup to the, I don't know, your listeners may not know this, show businesses, they're very glamorous.

00:06:37 Speaker_06
A lot of times you would get in what we would call a rental car and drive to Rochester. And then you would go to Buffalo if you were lucky. And then all the towns in between, Poughkeepsie, Schenectady, you know, you'd hit the old vaudeville circuit.

00:06:52 Speaker_06
But I listened to a lot of AM radio and the vitriol, and I mean, nonstop fire hose of degradation towards anything left of, I want to say Lyndon LaRouche, but anything to the left of that was ubiquitous.

00:07:12 Speaker_06
So I saw that cleaving, that Roger Ailes sitting in the White House in 1972 or wherever, 1973 or 1974 going, I will never allow what the left did to Nixon to ever happen again.

00:07:27 Speaker_06
And so the right very smartly rebuilt their own institutions in their image.

00:07:34 Speaker_06
colleges, think tanks, media, and they portrayed anything that had been the standard institution as wildly left-wing and activist, even if it might not be, even if it just had the patina of notions of equality or fairness, the kinds of things that just don't fly.

00:07:59 Speaker_06
in those situations.

00:08:01 Speaker_05
So you're describing the fear side of this. I want to zoom you in on the sanity side, because I think that gets at something interesting that happens around then and is a big part of politics, which is it's imbalanced in a way, right?

00:08:13 Speaker_05
It's not like good versus bad. The sort of aesthetic that emerged, I think it emerged in media too at that time. There is a lot in right-wing media that is about fear. And left-wing media was not like, we're going to tax the billionaires, right?

00:08:28 Speaker_05
Maybe it wants to do that, right? Democrats have become this party.

00:08:31 Speaker_06
Well, you've got to define left-wing media, though.

00:08:33 Speaker_05
That's totally fair. But let me say Democrats, right? The Obama-era Democratic Party, the way the Democratic coalition is changing, is not a class warfare coalition. It is a coalition that makes a big point about technocracy.

00:08:46 Speaker_05
You know, if we could just sort of come together and listen to the experts and look at the right charts, I am part of this, Ed Wonk blog, we'd all come to the right conclusion. Could we just be sane about this, common sense about this?

00:08:58 Speaker_05
It's kind of a pro-system coalition. And so in this weird way, you develop, I think, this new aesthetic in politics that you guys pick up on. It's not like, oh, the right wants to go to war against communism, and the left wants to tax rich people.

00:09:13 Speaker_05
It has this other cultural dimension. It's like the left are the experts. We're smart. We think about things. The right are, you know, they're the heartland. They're the real Americans. They're tough.

00:09:25 Speaker_05
And it's this whole other like slightly orthogonal, but I think now very dominant way that politics cleaves. It is almost barely related to what people wanna do.

00:09:35 Speaker_06
First of all, I cannot tell you how often people just throw the word orthogonal at me.

00:09:42 Speaker_05
Do you enjoy it or no? Everywhere I go, no, I don't know what it means. Tell me what that means. See, this is a problem with like the left-wing coalition over here. Sort of existing separately from, right? Okay, okay, okay.

00:09:56 Speaker_05
It's like a different, like a totally different space.

00:10:01 Speaker_06
I think that's really a nice perceptive analysis of those Obama years. I would probably go further and say that was the foundation of the left from, I mean, I think that's what the Goldwater revolution

00:10:17 Speaker_06
was more about, you know, this idea that the best and the brightest, right? That's sort of the Kennedy idea of we're going to get the best and the brightest and that's going to get us Vietnam, you know.

00:10:30 Speaker_06
But I think in some ways what you're describing is that original cleaving that I think Obama maybe represented, but is much more about

00:10:42 Speaker_06
that Kennedy coalition that came in and the Goldwater coalition that rose up to oppose it, or, I mean, Roosevelt to some extent, when you think about the New Deal and maybe that's what they would consider the original sin of the left, this idea that government will expand to help people, which was a huge sin.

00:11:03 Speaker_06
You know, the idea that, hey, wait, that guy's hungry? What if we gave him soup? And people would be like, what? No! That is the job of the sisters of the poor. That government can't do that. But ultimately, that's been the battle.

00:11:19 Speaker_05
I want to play you a bit of your speech that day. I was going back and listening to it. And one thing that struck me about it.

00:11:25 Speaker_06
Yeah, I'm so sorry. This is a terrible, terrible nightmare that I'm about to have. By the way, and the rally to resource sanity, here's what I think social media exists for.

00:11:36 Speaker_06
Social media exists for people to remind you what they will never forgive you for. Like what we thought was kind of a larf and we're gonna have a fun day has turned into there's very little I can do even today. that people won't come on.

00:11:52 Speaker_06
So I get two things on social media in the comment section. One is you're a Jew. That's just kind of, no matter what happens, whether I put out like, this is a picture of my dog.

00:12:02 Speaker_06
And like, somebody's going to come in the comment and be like, why did you change your name Jew?

00:12:06 Speaker_06
And the second is, I will never forgive you for that fucking stupid rally to restore sanity that apparently handed control of Congress to the Republicans.

00:12:17 Speaker_05
You know what sucks for you? It has become the worst thing of all? A text. And that is how we are treating it here. You created a text. Yes. So I want to play you a bit of your speech. I'm very sorry.

00:12:28 Speaker_05
But one of the interesting things about your speech there and about your show in that time about Stephen Colbert is it's it's not really about the right. It's about the media.

00:12:35 Speaker_05
So and the way that the media amplifies hostility and distorts relationships between Americans. Sure.

00:12:42 Speaker_06
Because the image of Americans that is reflected back to us by our political and media process is false. It is us through a fun house mirror and not the good kind that makes you look slim in the waist and maybe taller.

00:13:03 Speaker_06
But the kind where you have a giant forehead and an ass shaped like a month old pumpkin and one eyeball. So why would we work together? Why would you reach across the aisle? to a pumpkin ass forehead eyeball monster.

00:13:27 Speaker_06
If the picture of us were true, of course our inability to solve problems would actually be quite sane and reasonable.

00:13:36 Speaker_06
Why would you work with Marxists actively subverting our constitution or racists and homophobes who see no one's humanity but their own? Jeez.

00:13:47 Speaker_05
How does that hit for you now?

00:13:48 Speaker_06
Well, there is very little in this world more unappealing than the sound of your own voice being, at moments, sincere or also projecting. Like, it's very hard to listen to yourself projecting into a field.

00:14:04 Speaker_06
It's like a bizarro campaign speech where you're like, oh, it has the rhythm and tone and volume of a campaign speech, but I'm talking about a pumpkin ass.

00:14:15 Speaker_05
So there was a big idea at that time. Barack Obama used to talk about this all the time, right? It's the subject of the famous 04 DNC speech that launches him to national politics.

00:14:25 Speaker_05
And that cable news and later Twitter and the 24-hour news cycle and all the rest of it, it distorts us. It's a funhouse mirror. We get pumpkin asses and single eyeballs. I'm so sorry about that.

00:14:37 Speaker_06
It's not the appropriate reference.

00:14:39 Speaker_05
A vivid image, a vivid image. Right. And it's wrong. And then on the other hand, as time went on, and I wonder sometimes whether the media was cause or effect here, right?

00:14:50 Speaker_05
Politics begins to feel, I think, a little more, not pumpkin-ass, but when I watch people in politics, I watch Donald Trump, when I watch people acting in Congress now, I wonder to myself which one, which of us are the real us, right?

00:15:08 Speaker_05
It doesn't seem like always that our conflicts are so overstated, that the enmity is a distortion. Did you feel it is something that the media amplified and then it became reality? Or do you feel like it's still not reality?

00:15:26 Speaker_06
Well, it's probably not as black and white as any of that in terms of, you know, is it reality? But I can tell you this. I mean, I live in deep MAGA country where I am and there's, you know, New Jersey is a blue state, but there are really red pockets.

00:15:42 Speaker_06
I live in one and on a day-to-day basis. So if you're telling me like, do I think my neighbors have an enmity and an unpleasantness that I can't cut? No, I don't think that at all.

00:15:53 Speaker_06
I have wonderful and meaningful relationships with people that, and there's certain topics that you try to avoid, and then there are other topics that you don't avoid at all, and you give each other tremendous amounts of shit for.

00:16:04 Speaker_06
So, and again, that's anecdotal, not data, so I can't tell you what's what. I can only tell you my experience, but in my experience, media is a tool for people has an effect, it has a weight, and it has an ability to warp perceptions.

00:16:24 Speaker_06
You know, cable news to me was mind-blowing. 24-hour news cycle is good for one thing, and that's 9-11.

00:16:30 Speaker_06
Like, when 9-11 happens, you want that fucking station to be on all day, and you want people, and you want something because the world is so tenuous in that moment. But in the absence of it, how are you gonna keep people watching?

00:16:47 Speaker_06
We have to, in some ways, impose kind of a contrived urgency or a fear. And it's nothing new. It's just a question of degrees. How many times, you know, in the olden days of Rajah Mudd and eyewitness news, it was, you know, do you have children?

00:17:02 Speaker_06
Well, you won't believe the dangers in your bathroom. And you're like, well, I would, I shit there. Like I would think it's probably not hygienic. But it's always been about how do we keep the eyeballs, right?

00:17:15 Speaker_06
May I use a not safe for work and somewhat a tawdry example here?

00:17:21 Speaker_05
Before now, this has all been safe for work. This has been your version of PG. This is a classy program. You do what you need to do.

00:17:29 Speaker_06
Ezra, you're a good man. Thank you. When I was a young man, 13, 14 years old, if I got ahold of a Sears catalog and there was a picture of a woman in a bra in it, I was like, this is the most sexually exciting and arousing image.

00:17:46 Speaker_06
And as you get older, you get to like, that doesn't work on you anymore. And you get to that point where you're like, three people, a goat, and someone singing Pavarotti.

00:18:01 Speaker_06
You have to keep stimulating people further and further to different extremities to get that same hit of dopamine. And those apps and that media, especially now,

00:18:14 Speaker_06
are scientifically designed purposefully, like the woman who was blowing the whistle on Facebook, like our food is designed to escape that part of your brain that says, I should stop eating right now. Like, this is purposeful.

00:18:32 Speaker_06
The way that we are divided as people, some of it is political and weaponized by political actors, but the majority of it is capitalism. Capitalism with the idea of how do I generate the most income out of engagement?

00:18:54 Speaker_06
And it turns out, fear and anger and hate and outrage pay huge, I'm not suggesting that a monkey washing a cat is in a tremendous video and that we'll also get clicks, but that's not a business model.

00:19:10 Speaker_06
The business model is creating an atmosphere of outrage and anger. And so when you ask, does that have an effect? It absolutely does, and I think it does rewire the brains of the users.

00:19:25 Speaker_05
When I was on your show, we were talking about a piece of this, actually, which is the way that you were saying, you know, there was AM radio and then there was Fox News.

00:19:35 Speaker_05
And one thing that has happened in, I mean, in my lifetime, right, which is, and I'm 40, is this tremendous segmentation.

00:19:43 Speaker_05
the media broke into these like little competitive slices and competition can be great in the sense that it creates a lot of innovation.

00:19:53 Speaker_05
And if the innovation is how to get your little slice away from everybody else, sometimes the competition can become

00:20:01 Speaker_05
warping and one of the things I always think people get really wrong about the media is they think that it is stronger and more self-directed than it is when particularly when it has gotten very, very competitive.

00:20:14 Speaker_06
When you say self-directed, what do you mean by that?

00:20:17 Speaker_05
I've been involved in lots of different media over the years and I think something that has surprised me

00:20:23 Speaker_05
from going from somebody who reads it to somebody who makes it, is watching the way the media comes to reflect its audience, unless a tremendous amount of editorial strength is applied in the opposite direction.

00:20:37 Speaker_05
So, the sense that the media is just driving the audience is not quite right.

00:20:42 Speaker_06
So, you just named, you named the game. You know, and I think we talked about this, a lie travels eight times faster than the truth. But that means that the truth has to work nine or 10 times harder than a lie.

00:20:57 Speaker_06
And lies are the thing that are most weaponized. The truth is rarely weaponized, but the lies sure as shit are, because that's what propaganda is.

00:21:06 Speaker_06
And so the thing that you just said about the media not being self-directed, I think is probably putting your finger on in my mind, exactly what is troubling.

00:21:21 Speaker_06
That they themselves are victims of the incentivized algorithm that they're trying to compete with, as opposed to viewing it as part of an ongoing battle to combat lies.

00:21:39 Speaker_05
Your show has existed in two forms over time, right? There's the form on Comedy Central and then the chopped up form that goes on YouTube. Right. Does YouTube change it at all? Do you understand the YouTube difference as audience?

00:21:52 Speaker_05
And do you think that the fact that it has this other life has shifted the way in its earlier incarnation or in its current one the show gets made or what gets on it?

00:22:02 Speaker_06
It hasn't changed the way we make it. I don't know if chopping it up changes the way people experience it. I would guess it does. You mean in like, because people get shorter and shorter, like- Not only do they get shorter and shorter, but in a...

00:22:17 Speaker_05
In an episode, I think about this all the time in my work, right? When I was running Vox, when I was at the Post, you bought the paper as a whole, right? Or the magazine, I was at the American Prospect, you got the thing as a whole.

00:22:30 Speaker_05
And so as an editor at one of those places, you would balance things out, the stuff that was really appealing with the stuff that was maybe a bit more vegetables, the stuff that was a little bit more right, and the stuff that was a little bit more left.

00:22:41 Speaker_05
across the bundle that you are offering people. But when the way things worked was he grabbed one article and shared it around. And that article is then how people understood you.

00:22:52 Speaker_05
Your ability to exercise editorial control over the whole of the thing went away. And so, you know, maybe you do an episode that has different things in it for different people, or as a whole, it exists in some way.

00:23:05 Speaker_05
But then the fact that each segment has its own life, But if I'm watching it on YouTube, which is often where I watch it, that sort of control, that ability to give you the balanced diet, it's actually just not in your control any longer.

00:23:21 Speaker_06
Yeah. Boy, that's a good one, because it's, you know, television is so different than, you know, I think your background is probably more in writing and how people consume, but reading is such a more active process than viewership.

00:23:41 Speaker_06
And so I think because I have always been in, Stand-up or television i assume a more passive audience and so i never think quite about did they get the whole thing cuz i just always assume.

00:23:58 Speaker_06
They're doing something else like especially you know it's eleven at night it's eleven thirty nine i just always assume that i was a. mild form of foreplay, but just kind of.

00:24:10 Speaker_06
So I think the interesting thing about our process that's maybe different than what you're describing is how little we think about who might watch it and how they might watch it. And someone asked me this once, you know, they said,

00:24:24 Speaker_06
Has the social media or any of those other things changed the way people consume your show? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know them. I know this. It hasn't changed the way we make it, which is probably stupid.

00:24:37 Speaker_06
It has changed the way we try to publicize it. Like we will send out, like if there's a good joke chunk, we'll send that out there. And maybe people consume that as a way to maybe entice them. But the other part of it is,

00:24:51 Speaker_06
you're looking at the totality of analysis and news that makes up writing, a considered art form that you're really able to express a variety of different elements, and you need the totality of that to actualize your readers.

00:25:11 Speaker_06
The Daily Show really was like one op-ed, and then it became, the evolution of The Daily Show was in we became a series of monologue jokes that became slightly more essayistic. But it was always just one essay.

00:25:27 Speaker_06
So the burden of carrying that larger information world, I think we never felt, if that makes sense. And because we were steeped in television,

00:25:36 Speaker_06
you don't think of it in the same intellectual way that like you might as you're building Vox or as you're thinking about the New York Times.

00:25:45 Speaker_05
Yeah, the other thing that makes me think about, which is more private thought I've had over the years, is one of the dangerous things as media went online.

00:25:55 Speaker_05
You always want to be selling something that isn't the politics as your service to the audience. which is to say you were selling jokes as your first service to the audience.

00:26:04 Speaker_05
And there was politics and analysis alongside that, but they could come for the jokes. They didn't have to agree with the politics. The New York Times, that's reporting, right?

00:26:13 Speaker_05
You might hate what you understand to be the New York Times politics, but there's a ton of international reporting and we have people all over. The New Yorker, it's the narrative journalism, right? There's a politics to the New Yorker.

00:26:25 Speaker_05
But you can come for the stories first.

00:26:27 Speaker_05
And when you're just selling the politics, when you sort of distill it down to that, I mean, you were sort of making this about lies and truths, but I think once it just becomes a politics, what you can really, like, you have to be in agreement.

00:26:43 Speaker_05
if you're a highly ideological organization, and you have an audience, you have to be in agreement with the audience, or they have to be in agreement with you, or you're going to die.

00:26:53 Speaker_05
And the way that the internet unbundled everything, you couldn't just be coming for the sports, it made that much more intense.

00:27:01 Speaker_06
So again, that's when we talk about weaponization. So it's this idea, it depends on, I would say rather than lies and truth, maybe the binary that I would talk about is good faith, bad faith.

00:27:11 Speaker_06
Are you a purely political actor or do you believe there's utility in information or utility in good faith argumentation? I would say that a lot of the media is not good faith argumentation. It's political actors weaponizing forms of communication.

00:27:29 Speaker_06
for the desired goal of shifting a political conversation towards one side. You know, and there's different parameters to that. You can do that by heightening your side's political thing. You can do that by demonizing the other side's political thing.

00:27:44 Speaker_06
You can do that by undercutting. You can do that by warping. But that's the real difference. I think media doesn't know how to deal with bad actors. and bad faith actors that have weaponized it.

00:27:56 Speaker_06
And so they're forced to, it reminds me of every Supreme Court confirmation hearing, where the person that has achieved this level of accolade as a lawyer or as a judge or whatever it is, sits there and they say, well, what do you think about this?

00:28:12 Speaker_06
And they go, I am an umpire, and I will call balls and strikes, and I will stare decisis the precedent.

00:28:20 Speaker_06
It's what I... And then they get on the court, and they're like, I hate women, and I'm going to do... You know, it's all a bullshit show that's bad faith.

00:28:50 Speaker_03
Oh

00:28:56 Speaker_05
You may remember, or actually many people may not remember, there was a show on CNN called Crossfire for a period of time. That I'm not familiar with, but it sounds fantastic.

00:29:04 Speaker_06
I like any show that is named after what innocent bystanders get caught in, in a, let's say, gang violence.

00:29:13 Speaker_05
For somebody who's never seen Crossfire because something happened, it ended up getting taken off of the air due to the actions of a rogue comedian, what was it?

00:29:21 Speaker_06
What it started out as was this idea of good faith argumentation between people of differing political viewpoints. The original premise of that is not, by definition, a bad thing.

00:29:34 Speaker_06
I don't necessarily think that the binary of right and left or liberal and conservative is a particularly useful one.

00:29:42 Speaker_05
And it was Michael Kinsley and Patrick Buchanan, the original sanity versus fear, actually. Yes, but exactly right.

00:29:50 Speaker_06
Slate versus Father Coughlin. But what it turned into was, and this is maybe the critique of Crossfire that I think everyone has misunderstood was this idea of, I wasn't calling for civility. I was calling for a non-kabuki theater version.

00:30:09 Speaker_06
That debate, of course, should be robust and at times angry, but it should be in a modicum of good faith. And what it had become was sort of this very weaponized incentivized theater.

00:30:22 Speaker_06
So when you ask again, back to the original question, what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

00:30:27 Speaker_06
Well, what came first was an intention of having really interesting argumentation that could be illuminating and articulate differences and what the business model of 24 hour cable news turned it into

00:30:47 Speaker_06
was a perverse exercise in cynical, weaponized, divisive conversation.

00:30:56 Speaker_05
You're going to enjoy this, so I'm going to play a clip. Please, no. Ezra, this is not fun. You've done a lot to deserve this. There's karma. This is unpleasant. You do this to other people.

00:31:07 Speaker_06
You have listeners out there. Has this not happened to you? No.

00:31:10 Speaker_05
Really?

00:31:11 Speaker_06
No.

00:31:13 Speaker_05
Yeah, unfortunately.

00:31:14 Speaker_06
I've not had a, this is your life like this, where you, you play things that, that my wife after Crossfire, my wife, and this was before everything became viral and things like that. Like that really hadn't happened at that point.

00:31:25 Speaker_06
This was a long time ago. This was like 2000 and I don't know what four, six, eight. I have no idea. My wife called me, called me, not texted me on my iPhone. Like none of that shit existed.

00:31:37 Speaker_06
She called me and said, don't you ever do something like that again? And I try not to.

00:31:43 Speaker_05
Well, I'm going to play first what you did and then we can talk about it. So you can cover your ears. I'm here to confront you because we need help from the media and they're hurting us.

00:31:56 Speaker_07
And it's the idea is. Let me get this straight. If the indictment is. If the indictment is, and I have seen you say this, that Crossfire reduces everything, as I said in the intro, to left, right, black, white. Yes.

00:32:07 Speaker_07
Well, it's because, see, we're a debate show. No, no, no, no, that'd be great.

00:32:12 Speaker_06
I would love to see a debate show.

00:32:13 Speaker_07
We're 30 minutes in a 24-hour day where we have each side on as best we can get them.

00:32:16 Speaker_06
No, no, no, no, that would be great.

00:32:17 Speaker_07
And have them fight it out.

00:32:18 Speaker_06
To do a debate would be great, but that's like saying pro wrestling is a show about athletic competition.

00:32:26 Speaker_08
John, I'm sorry. I think you're a good comedian. I think your lectures are boring. Let me ask you a question on the news.

00:32:31 Speaker_06
No, this is theater. I mean, it's obvious.

00:32:34 Speaker_08
How old are you? And you wear a bow tie. Yeah, I do. I do. I do. I know, I know. You're right. Let me just go. Now, come on.

00:32:42 Speaker_06
Listen, I'm not suggesting that you're not a smart guy because those are not easy to tie. But the thing is that this, you're doing theater when you should be doing debate, which would be great. You do debate. It's just not honest.

00:32:56 Speaker_06
What you do is not honest.

00:32:58 Speaker_07
What you do is partisan hackery.

00:33:00 Speaker_05
I knew Tucker Carlson in those days, and his signal characteristic to me, the thing I think you were picking up on particularly about him, is he treated it all as a joke.

00:33:11 Speaker_05
You can go back and read Tucker Carlson's old magazine journalism, and it's great, hilarious magazine journalism. He was a very, very good magazine writer when he was young. And he went through all these, you know, very quick transformations.

00:33:22 Speaker_05
He was on MSNBC for a while. People forget that. Rachel Maddow's, one of her early breaks was that she was a regular contributor to Tucker Carlson's show on MSNBC. He was this kind of good times libertarian type.

00:33:36 Speaker_05
And he was a guy who treated it all kind of as a game. Right above it. I guess what I will say for him now, is I don't think it's a joke to him now. Something happened there.

00:33:47 Speaker_05
I think his politics are much more serious and much more real and obviously for that, much more dangerous. Humiliation happened. Yeah, I'm curious how you understand what happened to him psychologically.

00:34:00 Speaker_06
Well, I think, and I hate to do this to you, Ezra, I'm gonna describe this to you in professional wrestling terms, since that was one of the analogies that I used on there. See, this is actually the sport I know.

00:34:11 Speaker_06
Okay, then Ezra, you and I are gonna have a good time here.

00:34:13 Speaker_05
We're in good shape here, kayfabe, I got it.

00:34:16 Speaker_06
Beautiful, so what I was complaining about on Crossfire was kayfabe, was this idea that this is just theater and everybody's playing a character and nobody's a blah, blah, blah.

00:34:25 Speaker_06
But the other way to describe it for them is there's an establishment and then there's the anti-establishment, right? The disruptors and the rebels. Tucker Carlson was establishment and he tried to be a face.

00:34:38 Speaker_06
He was a heel, like Fox News, Megyn Kelly, same thing.

00:34:41 Speaker_05
Face being a good guy, heel being a bad guy. That's right.

00:34:44 Speaker_06
So she's on the heel network, Fox, but she's kind of the face on Fox. She's the one that like every now and again will say something and like the establishment or liberals will go like, Wow, she actually, that's empathy.

00:34:56 Speaker_06
That's like, that's interesting. Oh, she's not towing a dogmatic party line, right? So they decide like, oh, I will live amongst the faces. I will join them. I will be a part of the establishment and the establishment and the faces reject them.

00:35:11 Speaker_06
They feel wrongly and with a dogmatic litmus test and it's never good enough. And it's their intolerance that put them in that position. So they tried to live amongst the normies, right?

00:35:23 Speaker_06
And when that blows up and creates humiliation and returns them to, I think, their truer selves, I prefer them the way they are right now. I kind of dig it. It is like- Explain that.

00:35:40 Speaker_06
I'd rather someone not pretend to be Barbie and just be who she is, which is, I think, Ursula from The Little Mermaid. See, I went from pro wrestling to The Little Mermaid. You know, in many ways, Ezra,

00:35:53 Speaker_06
I am still stuck in the same entertainment options that I was using when my kids were little. I am frozen in that time.

00:36:00 Speaker_06
But do you get my point about like, what happened is they view, and Donald Trump in the same way, he views that there's this world that is excluding them, and they are excluding them purely for dogmatic, and they think they're better than me, and they hold these views that they think their shit doesn't stink.

00:36:21 Speaker_06
And I stepped into that world and tried to, you know, be amongst them. And they rejected that because they're assholes. And now I can just be in my own world and be as angry and as vicious as I think I was treated.

00:36:39 Speaker_06
And I think that's kind of the way it goes.

00:36:41 Speaker_05
I think it's so interesting. I don't know Megyn Kelly's story as well as I know or watched Carlson and Trump.

00:36:47 Speaker_06
I think it's very similar. Her moment was the, I joined NBC.

00:36:52 Speaker_00
This morning is the launch of Megyn Kelly today, just about six minutes from now. Megyn, good morning. Good morning. I can't hear anything you guys are saying, but I am excited.

00:37:06 Speaker_06
The show didn't go that well.

00:37:08 Speaker_05
And by the way, in both instances... And this is after being run out of Fox News, by the way, because she asked hard questions of Donald Trump at the first debate, right? She was rejected by the right first because she was not sufficiently pro-Trump.

00:37:22 Speaker_05
And he came after her, and within a year, she was out.

00:37:24 Speaker_06
Right. And that's what I meant by she was a face. She became a face. So if you think about it, both Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly were rejected and the reasoning behind their rejection, I think is still misunderstood. I didn't get Crossfire canceled.

00:37:40 Speaker_06
Crossfire's ratings sucked. And CNN looked for a way out, and that was a convenient flashpoint. And by the way, none of that had much to do with Tucker Carlson anyway.

00:37:52 Speaker_06
Person I really didn't like, there was Novak, but he just wasn't on the show that day. And Megyn Kelly in the same thing. Her show just wasn't connecting on NBC.

00:38:02 Speaker_01
And I want to begin with two words. I'm sorry. You may have heard that yesterday we had a discussion here about political correctness and Halloween costumes.

00:38:11 Speaker_06
And then she had that moment of, it was a blackface, I think, comment about the thing.

00:38:16 Speaker_01
I defended the idea, saying as long as it was respectful and part of a Halloween costume, it seemed OK. Well, I was wrong, and I am sorry.

00:38:27 Speaker_06
If her show was killing it... They'd have found a way to forgive it. They'd have found a way to keep her on there. But they used it as a convenient excuse.

00:38:35 Speaker_02
After public outcry stemming from controversial comments she made this week, all eyes are on what happens next for the anchor as her time with the Today Show comes to an end.

00:38:45 Speaker_02
The move comes four days after her blackface comments that provoked a firestorm, leading to a tearful apology.

00:38:52 Speaker_02
The chairman of NBC News condemned Kelly's remarks during a staff town hall, according to Variety, saying there is no place on our air or in this workplace for them.

00:39:01 Speaker_06
But I'm sure for her, it was incredibly painful and felt like a canceled because of my viewpoints. But the truth of the matter is, NBC executives and CNN executives, they aren't woke. They aren't any of those things.

00:39:19 Speaker_06
They're fucking desperately trying to hold onto their jobs by generating ad revenue by whatever means necessary. And so that's what they got caught up on. And by the way, though, the way that it happened attacked them at a core level.

00:39:37 Speaker_06
And that's what's created it. Like I've been canceled a shit ton of times. But the only reason I was canceled is like, the network executives just were like, yeah, this show sucks.

00:39:48 Speaker_06
But they didn't say like, you're a bad person and that's why we're canceling the show. And that's what they did to them.

00:39:56 Speaker_06
The industry, rather than standing up for what was really going on there, which is you're not generating enough revenue and interest to justify your large contract or whatever it is,

00:40:10 Speaker_06
They turned it into, we're getting rid of you for a moral failing or lapse. And that was wrong. And that's not, listen, I don't care for what they do. I don't care for their opinions, but what happened to them was wrong.

00:40:31 Speaker_05
The executives are interesting here. I was thinking about this when you were relating that story about Roger Ailes. Yes. There was a period of time in my life I did a lot of MSNBC and was a guest host on a lot of the primetime programs there.

00:40:42 Speaker_05
And so I knew the people who ran it pretty well. And what I would say about the people who ran MSNBC was they were fundamentally not that ideological. They were television executives.

00:40:52 Speaker_05
what they cared about, and that's why Tucker Carlson had a show, and why they were so excited about Joe Scarborough, you know, and still are, why recently they tried to hire Ronna McDaniel, the RNC chair, sort of disgraced RNC chair that didn't end up working out due to a revolt by people at the Network of Morals.

00:41:10 Speaker_05
Roger Ailes is honestly ideological, right? He had, as he's put it, he had a vision, right? He had a view about how things should be. He wanted to be successful, but he also actually knew what he was trying to achieve in the world.

00:41:23 Speaker_05
Those NBC executives who brought on Megyn Kelly, it was obvious to me that that show wasn't going to work, but they wanted the look of bringing on Megyn Kelly because they are not that ideological and particularly don't want to be seen as ideological.

00:41:35 Speaker_06
But they're lying to themselves because they place things in a moral universe when they really are just crass executives who are trying to sell.

00:41:46 Speaker_06
That's the part where I think the critique, if there's one critique of the media from the right that I do agree with is the moralizing nature. I don't know that there is

00:41:57 Speaker_06
you know, the idea that these media executives moralize their position, like there may be no greater disparity between reality and whatever idealized moral image you have in yourselves than the Washington Post putting on their masthead, democracy dies in darkness.

00:42:15 Speaker_06
Like who the fuck do you think you are? You have a board up in your room that shows like who's getting what clicks where, like that's just nonsense. I mean, I would almost welcome

00:42:27 Speaker_06
maybe not necessarily a more moral component, but a component of the news media that is more forceful editorially. Like Ailes' greatest trick was delegitimizing the idea of editorial authority.

00:42:43 Speaker_06
while exercising almost complete editorial authority, but doing it a way that was really smart. Like there is no condescension and moralizing on Fox. It's people on a couch asking questions.

00:42:59 Speaker_06
Do you think there's just, you know, are you worried about how many terrorists are coming in on the border? Do you ever worry about that?

00:43:07 Speaker_06
Whereas if you turn on MSC, sometimes you're like, it's like birds descending at sea on a tuna boat going, that's factually incorrect, incorrect, not correct, incorrect. And you're just like, I can't listen to this. But that's the brilliance of it.

00:43:27 Speaker_06
So when I say, like, Megyn Kelly's right, like, I do believe she's right. They pretended that they had to get rid of her out of some moral obligation to enlightened racism sensibility, like, fuck you, that is so not what you did.

00:43:44 Speaker_06
If they're making money, they're making money, and they'll let you get away with anything, anything, as we see.

00:43:51 Speaker_06
But when you ain't making money anymore, and they don't, for some reason, have the temerity to just go, yeah, you're not making us any money, they find some pretense of your moral failing and yank you.

00:44:04 Speaker_06
And so I get where some of that anger comes from, from those folks. Don't have a ton of sympathy because I've been fired a bunch of times too, but for the old fashioned reasons of sucking.

00:44:41 Speaker_05
When I think of Tucker Carlson now, I miss the triviality.

00:44:44 Speaker_05
I miss the, that there was enough agreed upon that you could have the theater, the kabuki, and now it feels like we've slipped down in this place where it's like, will we be a white ethno-nationalist state?

00:44:56 Speaker_05
That's harder to have like a funny debate over.

00:44:59 Speaker_06
But you always have to caution yourself against a nostalgia about this other time that existed because

00:45:07 Speaker_06
You know, William Hurst and yellow journalism and, you know, remember, the main can be just as damaging, even though it's newspaper, or think about, you know, radio in Rwanda, or think about, you know, propaganda that was piped into soldiers ears during, you know, different times on the radio.

00:45:28 Speaker_06
But again, Media has to continue to raise the bar in terms of the circadian rhythm of it, the cadence of it. It has to happen faster now. It happens more. And the difficulty is for the parts of media that we look at as utility, right?

00:45:47 Speaker_06
Think about the checks and balances of the government. This is going to be a segue that doesn't make any sense. But think about in the way that they describe the House of Representatives and the Senate.

00:45:54 Speaker_06
Somebody's got to be the Senate, not the Senate as it's presently constituted, but the normal Senate before it was an assisted living facility. So, you know, it has to be the saucer that cools the milk or whatever the fuck they want to describe it as.

00:46:08 Speaker_06
And that's what we're missing because what's happening is everybody's chasing that most dopamine-addled, you know, cocaine hamster sitting in a cage tapping the bar.

00:46:21 Speaker_06
Like, whatever makes content, right, becomes kind of fodder for all the other outlets that make their bones on content. So like, I don't know what will be clipped from this? Generally, something will be clipped.

00:46:40 Speaker_06
Generally, it's something that will reflect very little context about what we're talking about, but could be considered the most divisive or confrontational or provocative or partisan moment, right? I did an interview with Tim Walz yesterday.

00:46:57 Speaker_06
What will get clipped out of that is I had a moment where I was like, do we need the Cheneys? Can we get rid of the Cheneys? We don't need the Cheneys. And that's the moment that will be grabbed because how do those other outlets make their money?

00:47:10 Speaker_06
They don't make their money by going, oh, I saw this interview and it had blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They make their money by getting people to click.

00:47:18 Speaker_06
So rather than cooling it or debating it in good faith or looking at the issues, they look for a moment that they can exploit. And I don't look back with fond nostalgia. over the early 2000s.

00:47:33 Speaker_06
Even the New York Times credulously published something and Dick Cheney and his friends got to go on all the Sunday shows the next day and go, even the New York Times says Saddam Hussein is trying to make a nuclear weapon with these tubes that can only enrich uranium.

00:47:47 Speaker_06
Like I have no nostalgia that somehow this form of media can be more dangerous or like it can all be very dangerous. And that's why we have to, in whatever moment we're living in, fight like fucking hell to take the danger out of it.

00:48:08 Speaker_06
and to get better understanding into it. And we have the mechanisms and we have the talent and we have the people, we just need the will. Roger Ailes built Fox News Media out of tenacity and will and skill as a producer.

00:48:24 Speaker_06
We have to match that with the same intentionality that he brought to it. I sat in his office one day and we yelled at each other for an hour.

00:48:33 Speaker_06
But my takeaway from it was that empire was built out of the back of his head, purposefully, with an idea to delegitimize any media that may take away from his vision of what the world should be.

00:48:51 Speaker_05
God, there's so much there. When you were talking about nostalgia, I will die on the hill of fighting the George W. Bush revisionist nostalgia. Donald Trump is the fault of Dick Cheney.

00:49:05 Speaker_05
We would not have Donald Trump if we had not had Dick Cheney and the Iraq War and the delegitimization of the entire upper echelons of the Republican Party that came out of that much failure.

00:49:18 Speaker_05
So something about seeing Dick Cheney, who now endorsing Harris, and Liz Cheney, who, to be fair, I do admire that Liz Cheney was willing to lose her seat to oppose Donald Trump's anti-democratic movements.

00:49:33 Speaker_06
Think about the bar that sets, though, Ezra. I applaud the courage of someone who recognizes a coup and decides to say something about it. Yeah, but how many of the others didn't? No, that's what I'm saying. Like, that is the lowest bar.

00:49:49 Speaker_05
But there is this way, it's like between recognizing there's something important there and the genuine absence of accountability, right? I mean, there is something. Oh, I think other people recognize there's something important.

00:50:00 Speaker_06
I just think they put the project over the principle. Yes. Look, we're in a different world now, man. Like the old world communism versus capitalism moment is over.

00:50:15 Speaker_06
And by the way, it was a fight that had more death and destruction in it than I think was probably ever necessary.

00:50:23 Speaker_06
All that really, I think, this country needed to fend off communism and socialism is a decent social safety net, which I think was demonstrated. But now we're in a different world where the alignment is, I think,

00:50:37 Speaker_06
Woke versus un-woke, and the interesting thing is the un-woke people think they're the defenders of classic liberalism when all of their allies in it, like Orban and Putin and that, that's the new alignment of the world. Woke versus un-woke.

00:50:53 Speaker_06
And the classic defenders, the people in the media and in government who say, I'm the defenders of the Constitution and free speech and would like to align myself with Orban and Putin, like the cognitive dissonance that occurs there is mind-blowing.

00:51:08 Speaker_05
I remember when Elon Musk took over Twitter to protect free speech and make sure Twitter was politically neutral, and now here we are.

00:51:17 Speaker_06
But no, but it's in many ways a cynical exercise. And you can say to them, Donald Trump is threatening broadcast license because he doesn't like that they're critical of him. Or Donald Trump is calling people the enemy within and not migrant gangs.

00:51:36 Speaker_06
He's talking about Nancy Pelosi. And you say, so how are you the defender of the First Amendment? And that's the guy you're throwing. Well, that's just bluster. Oh, he doesn't mean that. He doesn't think. None of this particularly makes any sense.

00:51:53 Speaker_06
And if you want to talk about cancel culture, there is no greater cancel culture than being a Republican and speaking out even in the mildest forms against Donald Trump. Where's the free speech in any of this?

00:52:05 Speaker_06
None of this makes any fucking sense, Ezra. Make sense of it, Ezra. You're very smart. Please help me.

00:52:13 Speaker_05
I think that I like the cut you're making. Like, I do think there's something to the woke, non-woke. I mean, we were talking about this when I was on your show. It's funny because we're circling some of the same topics here.

00:52:25 Speaker_05
It is one of the oldest findings of political science, that people are not that ideological. I definitely agree with that. That the people who experience politics as this well-connected sense of this web of policies that all go together,

00:52:41 Speaker_05
And if you pick the liberal web or the conservative web, that's like 10% of the population. Like most people, it's just not how they experience politics or the world.

00:52:50 Speaker_05
And one of the things that bugs me is the endless, at this point, I don't think people should still be saying, should still be surprised that Donald Trump has appeal. We've seen Donald Trump like figures in too many other countries.

00:53:03 Speaker_05
The fact that he doesn't appeal to you, But if you believe Donald Trump should be losing this election by 60, you know, 65, 35, and it's just like a failure of political strategy on Kamala Harris' part, like, I think you've missed the boat.

00:53:16 Speaker_05
You've missed the actual, like, appeal of strongman politics, which have been there forever. You've missed the appeal of people who say, I don't like how all this is changing, and I wanted to stop.

00:53:26 Speaker_05
There are people I love who support Donald Trump, and it's one of the best things in my politics that I have them in my life, because, like, one, it keeps my sense of people's complexity alive, but two, one thing you hear is just people saying, I don't know,

00:53:42 Speaker_05
Everything's different now, and I don't feel like I have a place in it. And on some level, Donald Trump agrees with them. It was better before. Make America great again.

00:53:50 Speaker_05
And that's a politics that sometimes gets policies attached to it, but it's not really a politics that is about policies or even about any one thing. I mean, vibes, a sense of do you fit in the world and where it's going?

00:54:03 Speaker_05
Do you have status in the world and where it's going?

00:54:06 Speaker_06
I don't want the strong man as long as it's my strong man, as long as it's following along.

00:54:11 Speaker_06
To that point, Ezra, I mean, you know, look, I'm not in a swing state, so I don't know exactly, but we still have down-ballot races that are being communicated all the time.

00:54:20 Speaker_06
The big clamoring about Kamala Harris was she has to define who she is through a series of policy things that appeal to the American people, and that will help them get comfortable with her as a leader and da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

00:54:33 Speaker_06
Every commercial that I see on my television, there's only two arguments the Republicans are making. Republican candidates are making two arguments. We're all going to die because of people coming over from the border.

00:54:45 Speaker_06
And Kamala Harris is for they, them. Donald Trump is for you. Those are the only two commercials, trans people and migration. That's it.

00:54:56 Speaker_06
And they all talk about trans people shouldn't be in sports as though like that is the dominant theme of like high school athletics now is like my kids were high school age a couple of years ago.

00:55:08 Speaker_06
I don't recall there ever being a trans person playing the sport or dominates or having any consequential action on that. But I will tell you this, if you're concerned about competition and fairness, I seen a lot of parents who reclass their kids

00:55:25 Speaker_06
to drop them down a grade, not because they can't handle the social aspect of it, not because they can't handle the academics, but because it will make them a more appealing athletic prospect.

00:55:35 Speaker_06
So 19-year-olds are beating the shit out of 14-year-olds in high school sports. You want to do something about competition, do that. But what they've done is they've taken a kind of non-problem

00:55:47 Speaker_06
and blown it into a catastrophic emblem of a society in decline.

00:55:54 Speaker_05
But emblem is such an important, I think, word there. Because the thing, the reason there is strength to what they're doing, because yeah, it's not, look, if we could, I am fully happy to say if we could agree on giving

00:56:10 Speaker_05
people rights and protection from discrimination, we can then have some conversations about the right way to manage swimming at the NCAA level. Like I think like like a society could say like sports are arbitrary. We're going to figure something out.

00:56:22 Speaker_05
But it's a it's all a signal like of they are turning society into something you don't understand anymore. It's not a policy.

00:56:30 Speaker_06
Taking it though. And they're like, what they do though is, and they blow it out anecdotally through like, these social media apps with their algorithms and incentives.

00:56:41 Speaker_06
That is the whole point as we circle back to the thing is they are able to take those uncomfortable feelings of change and create and urgency, you know, there's something very, like I have anxiety and insomnia, had it my whole life.

00:56:59 Speaker_06
What it does is actually physical. Like your mind will take you to places that you believe in your body are now happening.

00:57:10 Speaker_06
Cortisol is flowing and you feel an urgency and an almost a fear and a panic, whether or not what you're experiencing is real, imminent, Impossible, it doesn't matter.

00:57:25 Speaker_06
And what the algorithms do that is so destructive and brilliant is what people in white lab coats do to Lay's potato chips.

00:57:36 Speaker_06
They design it in a way, the algorithm finds a way to take a piece of information and put it into your body in a way that drags you into a rabbit hole and creates in your body that sense of panic

00:57:51 Speaker_06
and fear, they physicalize it in a way that a newspaper never could. And that's the danger here. And always, by the way, the most vulnerable populations. You notice that it's not anybody but like the people with the fewest defenders.

00:58:08 Speaker_05
Always. Always. I want to end on not how everybody else changed, but how you did. And when I go back to old Jon Stewart, I'm not going to play anything at you, you're safe now. Please.

00:58:19 Speaker_05
There was this sort of sanity, we can all be, you know, let's have some common sense here. Like, let's not be idiots. You have this great long traffic analogy in your sanity speech about us all on the road together.

00:58:29 Speaker_05
And I listen to you now, listen to the podcast, got to appear on it, which was a thrill. And there's a, you're more of a populist now, like left populist.

00:58:37 Speaker_06
But it feels to me like the sense that- Politically, I think I've always been, that's always been.

00:58:42 Speaker_05
I think politically, but there's a sense that I did not used to get from you. That I would describe your politics much more now, not as technocratic, but as power concedes nothing without a fight.

00:58:54 Speaker_06
That I completely agree with. I think the differences in the populations that I'm talking about,

00:59:02 Speaker_06
I think I've always separated, you know, the idea has always been, you know, 80 to 90% of the people can find some ability to work together in common ground and move forward in a productive fashion.

00:59:14 Speaker_06
And the other 10 to 15% of those people run the place. And that has always been my position. And I think some of it has been informed by, having to go down to Washington to try and accomplish something not in the media world, but in the real world.

00:59:34 Speaker_06
And the realities of what it takes to move a machine that is built for the status quo and built for the disconnect between their power structure and the needs of the people that they purport to represent.

00:59:50 Speaker_06
So there is certainly a more sober view of what it takes to move that machine, but I have never thought there was anything other than the people and the machine.

01:00:03 Speaker_06
And what's so frustrating about that is we the people, by the people, for the people, of the people. And what is it about that process that removes us from them? That's the part that I think is so difficult.

01:00:20 Speaker_06
So now when I think of solutions, I think less of those processes and changing it in more fundamental ways. I think less of, we got to get more unionizing, got to get more people and think like, no, the whole fucking structure has to change.

01:00:33 Speaker_06
They need to be able to participate in the investment and shareholder economy at that table. Whatever feast is being had there must be had here. Poor people shouldn't have to get better lobbyists.

01:00:47 Speaker_06
Veterans who are struggling with toxic exposure shouldn't have to find public figures. None of this shit should be the way that you permeate that bubble.

01:00:57 Speaker_06
But I don't think the fundamental truth that people inherently in day-to-day lives have an ability to be with each other healthily, that hasn't changed for me, I don't think.

01:01:11 Speaker_05
That's a great place to end. Always our final question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience?

01:01:18 Speaker_06
Let's see. I Shouldn't Be Telling You This by Chelsea Devantes. That's what I have there.

01:01:24 Speaker_05
Oh, that sounded like you were telling me a secret. No, the book is called I Shouldn't Be Telling You This. Oh, yes.

01:01:31 Speaker_06
She's a friend of mine who is a wonderful comedian and a writer, and her memoir, she'd just written, I think, a few months ago, and it's absolutely wonderful.

01:01:41 Speaker_05
Chelsea Devantes was her name?

01:01:42 Speaker_06
Chelsea Devantes, yeah, fabulous comedian. You know, whenever I recommend books, I always go back to the books of my youth. And so it's always Vonnegut. Get your hands on Vonnegut. If there is anyone that I think more impressed my worldview.

01:02:02 Speaker_06
It was Vonnegut, this idea of a guy who had been through World War II in Dresden and yet still maintained a hopeful, humanistic approach, even tinged with the cynicism that obviously comes through people like Carlin.

01:02:17 Speaker_06
And any book by Carlin or Vonnegut, and I know those sound disparate.

01:02:21 Speaker_05
Where do you start? Give me a Vonnegut.

01:02:24 Speaker_06
I would start Breakfast of Champions with Vonnegut or maybe Player Piano. Boy, you just can't go wrong. Cat's Cradle. You can't go wrong. Slaughterhouse-Five. Whatever you want to do. God bless you, Mr. Rosewood. Whatever you want.

01:02:41 Speaker_06
It just doesn't matter because you'll dive in and you'll be transported to that world of a hopeful, heartbroken man writing about what he thinks people could be. It's that

01:02:55 Speaker_06
You know, it's the William Shatner Blue Origin moment, where he goes up in space and he looks down on the Earth and goes, how are we blowing this?

01:03:03 Speaker_06
How the fuck in this dark expanse of nothingness, we have the one... It's like the same thing, I think, when they always say, like, we're going to Mars and you're like, but the water and the food is here. Why?

01:03:16 Speaker_06
Why don't we just stay here and make this work? What's wrong with that?

01:03:22 Speaker_05
a hopeful, heartbroken man. Jon Stewart, thank you very much. This episode of the Ezra Klein Show is produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Amin Sahota.

01:03:54 Speaker_05
Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show's production team also includes Annie Galvin, Roland Hu, and Kristen Lynn. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samuelski and Shannon Busta.

01:04:05 Speaker_05
The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser. Ezra, that was fun. Super fun, man. Thank you.

01:04:21 Speaker_06
Oh, good. I'm glad.

01:04:22 Speaker_05
I've wanted to have you on the show since I started it. That was all I'd hoped for.

01:04:26 Speaker_06
I'm delighted. And I hope to have disappointed you and your production team.

01:04:31 Speaker_05
That's true. In all the right ways.